Manitoba Hansard — 18 July 2000 (Sitting 63, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-63

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 63- 1:30 p.m., Thesday, July 18, 2000 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETI, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

41 25 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, July 18, 2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Law Amendments Fourth Report Mr. Doug Martindale (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments): Mr. Spea ker. I beg to present the Fourth Report of the Committee on Law Amendments. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Stand ing Committee on Law Ame ndme nts presents the foll owing as its Fourth Report. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as its Fourth Report.

Your comm ittee met on Monday. July 17, 2000, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. Your comm ittee heard representation on bills as follows: Bill 41- The Balanced Budget. Debt Repayment and Taxpayer Protection Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'equilibre budgetaire, le remboursement de Ia dette et Ia protection des contribuables et modifications correlatives. Victor Vrsnik, Canadian Taxpayers Federation Your comm ittee has considered: Bill 41-The Balanced Budget, Debt Repayment and Taxpayer Protection Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'equilibre budgetaire, le remboursement de Ia dette et Ia protection des contribuables et modifications correlatives and has agreed to re port the same without amendment. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Spea ker, move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. Committee of Supply Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (Acting Chair person): Mr. Spea ker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital (Ms.

Alla n), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Galle ry where we have with us today Ivan Marie and Stefika Marie, and Karl Godar and Mathilda Godar from Slovenia, accompanied by Rod McKenzie, Gavin Lawrie and Doug Webber. On behalf of al l honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Elections Finances Act Amendment s-Justification Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

412 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 Yesterday, in Estimates of Executive Council, the Premier indica ted he had some personal views with regard to The Elections Finances Act, which motivated his actions to change this legislation. To confirm this, I would like to quote from a newsl etter, Manitoba Young New Democrats: "It is also alarming to note that in many respects this legisla tion is motivated by a 'let's-screw-the- Tories mentality.' At the provincial council meeting of December 4, 19 99, this issue was hotly debated by deleg ates.

Prem ier Doer attempted to bolster his position by ref erring time and again to the amount of money the Tories stood to Jose, and how it was important to pass this legisla tion as quickly as possible bef ore the Tories had a chance to fill their war chest with quickie fundrai sers ." Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the document. This is a very serious matter, a serious issue. My question for the Premier is: Would he confirm that his personal views have motivated his changes to The Elections Finances Act? Bon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, in fact, I think yesterday in Estimates I promised to table-an d I hope I have it here; yes, I do-an

article from Graham Fraser, a journalist at the Toronto Star and a former Quebec reporter for the Globe and Mail. Perhaps I could table that

article as well, that I was bringing to Estimates later today. Mr. Speaker, at the press conf erence announcing the legisla tion and at the press conf erence announcing our ele ction promise, I believe in September, I said quite clearly that it is legisla tion I believe in. I also said that it is contentious within our own party. I have not read the

article yet, but it is contentious within our own party. * (1 3:35) I also said at the press conference that any political party that received a consid erable amount of money from corporations and unions, as opposed to individuals, would be restricted by this legislation. One of the journali sts said: Well, do the Tories not receive more money from corporations than you do? I said: Yes, they do. The amount of money that we receive between unions and corporations is Jess than how much money the Tories receive from corporations.

That fact is well documented because it is in the returns from The Elections Act that had been passed in the 19 80s by a previous government that was interested in el ectoral ref orm. This legisla tion, Mr. Speaker, as Mr. Fraser has indi cated, has worked in Quebec because it has improved democracy. I believe that union and corporate donations should be banned. I made a promise in September, and we are delivering on it. Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker. but it is obvious that the Prem ier says one thing to the public and another thing behind closed doors to his party members. Some Honourable Members: Oh. oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would lik e to go on to quote from the Young New Democrats: "If the NDP is the governing party, then it has an oblig ation to do what is best for everybody in Manitoba. To pass-" Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would ask the co operation of all honourable members. The Honourable Interim Leader of the Of ficial Opposition has the floor. Mrs.

Mitchelson: It is obvious that the Young New Demo crats are not clapping for this Premier and this government. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, it is under standable that the Government is embarrassed, and they are trying to defl ect away from the

July 18 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 412 7 issue, but I want to go on to quote from the Young New Democrats, and they said: "To pass legisla tion with the expressed intent of humbling your political enemies is a betrayal of those democ ratic principles . " .. " I would like to ask the Premier: Is he ramming through this legis lation that, according to his own members, is not in the best interests of Manitobans but is merely intended to create, and I quote again: "an unfortunate lack of fair play. " Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, unlike members opposite, our political party has vigorous debate internal ly and external ly. When we have lea der ship races, it is not decided in the Manitoba Club. It is decided across the province. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would ask the co operation of all honourable members. Mr. Doer: Mr. Spea ker. there are people in our party that do not agree with our election promise and our legisla tion to proceed to ban union and corporate dona tions. I respect their vie ws. and I do not agree with their views. We made a promise on September 10 , 19 99.

Now this is a foreign conce pt to members opposite, because this is a promise made and Bill 4 and Bill 17 are promises kept I know it does not work that way with members opposite. An Honourable Member: Put your glasses on, Gary, you are not that young anymore. * (13: 40) Mr. Doer: Well, I would agree with the Member opposite. It is small print, Mr. Speaker. This has been part of our platform. It was debated throughout our party with a lot of disa greement. It was prepared as part of our pl atform and released to the public in September. The media asked me what the impact would be at the press conf erence.

I said those people who received more money from unions and corporations would have, obviously, a bigger challenge, although one could argue that sometimes the donations flow, if you were to look across Canada, certainly not to this province-donations might flow a li ttle higher to incumbent governments as opposed to non-incu mbent governments. Mr. Fraser goes on to say that Mr. Levesque was di sgusted by contractors' influence on the Liberal Party, but since passing the legisla tion it has transformed Quebec politics. It has made it more democra tic. This is an independent analyst.

I know there are members in our party that are opposed to this, but I promised in the election, and we are delivering it here in the Legisla ture. Amendments-Withdrawal Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is obvious, again, from the Premier's answer that he has one policy for the public and another policy behind closed doors at the New Democr atic Party convention and a completely dif fe rent agenda when he is speaking to the party faithful than when he is speaking to Manitobans. I would like to quote again from the report of the Young New Democrats.

It says, and I quote: "Of particular concern is the desire to ram this legisla tion through the House without the careful consid eration that will be necessary to ensure its eff ective ness. " We have not even received the final report from Elections Manitoba on the 19 99 election. Will this Premier now li sten to members of his own party and withd raw this legisla tion? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Spea ker, the Fraser

article goes on to talk about healing the wounds from the 19 95 election issue and speaks to the record of members opposite and the Monnin inquiry. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. I believe this

article refers to a meeting that took pla ce in December of 19 99. A promise was made on September 10 , 19 99. The promise was to the public to ref orm The Elections Act; to ban all donations from union, corporate, and other organized sources; to esta blish an upper-dollar

412 8 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 limit on donations for political parties by individuals; to limit third-party spending during campaigns, and to reduce the special-in terest infl uence as recommended by Elections Manitoba but not accepted by the Filmon Conser vative government. This was a promise made in the election campaign, and 10 0 percent of members of our party do not agree with the promise. That is part of a democr atic process. I might say that the Member opposite did not read one sentence: "The intent of the Doer government is a noble one." Having said that, this is a promise we made -[interjection] The rest of the

article is not that flattering, but that is okay. You have members of your party that disa gree with you. We have a promise made to the public. We have an independent journalist saying, and I quote: After the Liberals in Quebec who received all this money from corporations had this rest riction, they had to go out and work door-to-door to raise money because people did not want to send their money off to party headq uarters with no strings attached. The people of the party got more involved. The conventions were more democr atic. In other words, the party debates mattered.

There is a kind of word for this activity; it is called democr atic. Let us join in democratic improvements to our elections laws, Mr. Speaker. * (1 3:45) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Interim Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Order. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Beauchesne's Citation 168: "When rising to preserve order or to give a ruling the Speaker must always be he ard in silence." I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. The Honourable Interim Leader of the Official Opposition, with a new question. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We can see by the Premier's antics in his answers that he is very sensitive to this issue and rightly so when his own words are coming back to haunt him. Again, I will quote from the report that says "le t's-screw-the-Tori es." I mean that is the agenda and the motivation that was articula ted to his party and the position he was trying- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, that obviously was his agenda behind closed doors at the New Democratic meeting.

It is cl ear that that is the mess age that the Young New Democr ats got from this lea der who is supposed to be a statesperson and the Prem ier of this province. We have seen very much flawed legisla tion that has come forward that basically was born in the Premier's own mind, and he appears to be using government offices to further his own personal agenda. Will he now admit that that is the case and withdr aw this bill? Mr. Doer: Mr. Spea ker, my answer to the Member opposite is Alf red Monnin. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would just like to remind all honourable members that the cameras are on and the clock is ticking. I would ask the co operation of all honourable members. Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, the arrogance of this First Minister shows. The Prem ier obviously is very embarrassed by the comments that the youth wing of his party has made and the condemnation of this Premier and his personal motives and personal agenda that is driving this legislation.

In the best interests of the el ectorate of Manitoba, will this Premier now withdraw Bill 4, wait for the report of the Chief Elec toral Officer on the 19 99 ele ction and ensure that he consults with third parties, including his own New Democratic youth? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I have never used the language about the legisla tion that the Member

July 18 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 412 9 opposite describes to me. I just had a review of that

article to ensure that that is cert ainly the record in the article. We made this promise in September, September of 19 99. It is July now. We had made this promise to the people of Manitoba, and we are going to elimi nate third party, special-i nterest-group donati ons; we are going to elimi nate union and corporate donations, and that will be a more democratic process, as Graham Fraser has indica ted from his review of the Quebec practices. Let us get rid of the special interests in donating money to political parties and let us make this process more dem ocratic here in Manitoba.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (13: 50) Amendme nts-Justification Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Spea ker, obviously there is a lot of sensitivi ty and embarrassment around this Premier's comments on the Government side of the House. And understandably so when they made an election promise and then they rushed out very quickly after the ele ction and held a big fundraiser to try and get those quickie donations in their own coffe rs bef ore they introduced this legislation.

So let them not appear to be the saints that they are trying to portray today. Mr. Spea ker, as stated by the Young New Democrats, the members of this government are the governing · party, and they do have an obl igation to do what is best for everyone in Manitoba. We see the undemo cratic principles, and we have seen them many times already in this first session of their mandate: by ramming casinos down the throats of communities who are opposed to them, by the Minister of Conservation (Mr.

Lathlin) ramming through legis lation without consulting with the farmers that are affected, by taking away the powers of duly el ected school trustees, by introducing regressive labour legisla tion that takes away the fundamental dem ocratic right of workers to a secret ballot. And now we see this government attempting to limit the role of third parties and limit the fundamen tal right of free speech in this province. Even the Young New Democ rats, his own party members, are questioning the Premier's motives. Why, Mr.

Spea ker, is this Premier letting his own personal agenda override members of his own party and concerned citizens in Manitoba? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, listening to the Member opposite speak as if the opposite caucus are the friends of working people really stre tches cred ibility a bit, and to hear them- Some Honourable Members: Oh. oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given the Monnin report and inquiry, Mr. Spea ker, I do not think members opposite should fe ign any concern about the democratic principles of running an election campaign.

There was some work required, given some of the court decisions dealing with third parties, but the issue of banning union and corporate donations was a promise made on September 10. It was a promise we were committed to coming into government. It was a promise made in our Speech from the Throne. I remember Mr. Kel ly, from the small business community, saying that this was a bad bill, and then he surveyed the small businesses. and they said they were in favour of it. Let us get behind the peop le. Ban union and corporate donations. And I ask the Conservatives to join with us, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would lik e to remind the Honourable Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) and the Honourable Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) of Beauchesne's Citation 16 8: "When rising to preserve order or to give a ruling the Speaker must always be heard in silenc e." I would ask the co-operation of all members. Elections Finances Act Amendments-Justification Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): It is obvious from the Premier's answers that this Premier does not have a high regard for the principles of

413 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 democr acy, and he cer tainly does not have any respect for fair play as it relates to this legislation. Mr. Spea ker, as a matter of fact, his own party, this Premier's own youth wing, his party's youth wing have condemned the motivation and the intentions of this Premier with regard to this legislation. It is cle ar as could be that the Minister's personal motivation for ramming through the changes to The Elections Finances Act is his own "let's- screw-the- Tories" mental ity.

The youth membership, as I said, of the NDP party has said that this Premier is betray ing the democr atic principles of his party. This is becoming a reoccurring theme with this Premier and this party. They are becoming quickly the non-dem ocratic party. Mr. Speaker. I want to ask the First Minister: Can he explain to Manitobans why. despite not receiving the recommendations of the Chief El ectoral Officer on the 19 99 election, he is bent on moving so quickly, something his own party is warning him not to do? *( 13 :55) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Our own party debates issues.

Individuals speak for issues and speak against them. One indivi dual in the YND, the Young New Democ rats, opposes it and uses arguments to oppose it. Mr. Spea ker, the party is made up of a group of constituencies. Unlike members opposite, we work with all constituencies to develop our views of the future. The old ways of doing things where unions and corporations donated to political parties is going to be amended. It is going to be amended by an election promise we made on September 10 . We made that promise to the people of Manitoba.

If we had not kept that promise, members opposite legitima tely would be stand ing up and saying: You are breaking your el ection word. Well, we are not. We made the promise on September I 0. The whole party was involved in the development of our pla tform, which included fixing health care, giving hope to young people and cleaning up union and corporate donations. Mr. Derkach: I can understand why the Premier would like to skirt this issue. As a matter of fact, he continues to refer to other issues instead of dealing with the issue- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you plea se remind the Member that on a suppleme ntary question there is no prea mble. He is pursuing a prea mble. I think there are a couple of sentences there. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a suppleme ntary question should not require a prea mble. * * * Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Member to please put his question. Mr. Derkach: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Why does the First Minister def end rushing through this legisla tion to the NDP provincial council by ref erring time and again to the amount of money the Tories stood to lose? Mr. Doer: Mr. Spea ker. I recall in a press conference getting asked the question. I mean. the documents and the numbers are fairly transparent because. under the elections laws passed by the previous government in the '80s, the intent of stopping private quiet donations to individuals or political parties or second candi dates was negated by the requirement, almost negated, I am sorry.

Some members can find a way to get around it, regrettab ly, but almost negated by the ele ction laws of the 198 0s. I recall the testimony of members in the inquiry where developers and other business interests that would normally write cheques to the Progressive Con servative Party wrote cheques of $249 to get under the radar and get beyond the election laws. We need no lec tures from members opposite. It was not an inquiry about the conduct ofthe NDP in 19 95. I daresay,

July 18 , 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4131 in 19 99, we will again come out as the demo cratic party in this province. The Young New Democrats publication has individ ual opinions. Often it criticizes us for not being this way or that way. There are hundreds of articles that criticize the Government. I, obviously, was stating what I stated in the press confere nce. The NDP is going to lose corporate donations.

We are going to lose union donati ons, and the Conserva tives are going to lose corporate dona tions, but the public is going to gain, because when we pass a la w, it should be on the basis of what is best for the people of Manitoba, not who passes and writes the biggest cheque, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Spea ker, I believe "hypo crisy" is not a term I can use in the House, so I will not.

I want to ask the Premier why he allowed the fundraising dinner of last November for his party, which enticed corporate and other donations to his party, to take place if he truly and firmly believes in the concept of this legisla tion? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the members opposite have had two corporate fundraising din ners since the change in government, and we believe in a level playing field. The level playing field is that under the existing laws- * (14:00) Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Interim Leader of the Official Opposition, on a point of order. Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Yes, Mr. Speaker. The Premier references the two fundraising dinners that we have had, and I am wondering whether-the one that they held, the tickets were twice the price. Is that what he means when he talks about a level playing field? Mr. Speaker: Order. A point of order is a very serious matter. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. On the point of order raised by the Interim Leader of the Official Opposition, she does not have a point of order. It is a di spute over the facts. * * * Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable First Minister, to conclude his comments. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A couple of days the members opposite ask questions about the influence of labour on the NDP, and then when we are taking a positive step forward and banning union and corporate donations, they cannot handle it. They cannot handle it. The last election was fought on the election la ws of 19 99 and 19 98 and 19 97. The last election was fought on those laws.

The next election will be fought on the laws that are proposed in this House and subject to public hearings and possible amendments from members opposite and suggestions from the public. The new laws will be impl emented on January 1, 2001, so the date will be fairly straightforward. Contrary to the

article and the comments made by members opposite, the meeting that is ref erred to in the individual's

article was in December 19 99. The law does not take ef fe ct until January 1, 2001. That is enough time for the public promise that we made to be imple mented in a way that is consistent with the public interests and the interests of Manitobans which we believe are to ban union and corporate donations eff ective January 1, 200 1, and moving into the next election campaign. This is a positive step forward, Mr. Speaker. Members opposite talk about the Chief El ectoral Of ficer.

For three years running they had a recommendation to elim inate cabinet deciding who the retu rning officers would be in each constituency. We are proud of the fact we have taken the Cabinet out of appointing those people, those returning officers, and given it to the independent Chief Elec toral Officer.

413 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 Elections Finances Act Amendme nts-Withdrawal Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Spea ker, it is interesting to note that when the Premier had the opportunity to explain this legisla tion to his own party members, their impression of his explanation was that it was designed to screw the Tories, and I quote: It had an "unfortunate lack of fair play." That is the ju dgment of his own party members on the explanation he off ers today.

I would like to ask the First Minister, if he truly believes in fair play, if he truly would like to demon strate that he belie ves this should be done on a non-partisan basis, that it is important to be fair. Given that Mr.

Justice Monnin recommended an all-pa rty committee to develop a code of et hics, I would ask the Premier today: Is he prepared to demon strate his commitment to fair pla y by withdrawing this bill and striking an all- party committee made up ofNew Democr ats, Progressive Conservatives and Liberals to look at this whole issue and develop a bill that al l parties can live with in this Legisla ture? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the opinions in the

article are the opinions of one individual. But I would say there are some people, for example, in unions that do not agree with banning union and corporate donations. That is an honest answer to the issue, but on balance, we believe that a promise made in September -[interjection] You could have cam paigned against our promise. You could have got the public opposed to this promise, but I daresay the public likes the idea.

We believe our contact with people in Manitoba, on the streets of Manitoba, in the coffe e shops, they agree with banning union and corporate donations as an improvement to democracy here in Manitoba. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Spea ker, perhaps the reason the Young New Democr ats have that opinion of the Premier is he fails to answer their questions.

I ask him again: Will he make a commitment to fairness to all Manitobans by withdrawing this bill from this session and striking a committee of this Legis lature with all parties represented on it, accepting his principle, but to draft the bill on a non- partisan basis that all parties can live with and will be proven to Manitobans to be fair? Will he make that commitment today to Manitobans? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the recommendations contained within the Chief El ectoral Officer's report that were supposed to go to the Privileges and Ele ctions Committee all the way through the 19 90s, the members opposite never once called together the Privileges and Ele ctions Committee of the Legisla ture to deal with the recom mendations. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): The First Minister says that the Committee had never been called, but the Committee is supposed to have been called in 60 days after the report came, by a law which was passed when we were in government. which they supported. That law was not in place bef ore . That law was just put in place last session. and you supported that law. When will you cal l that committee so we can see the Elections officer? Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Gover n ment House Leader, on the same point of order? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order.

Mr. Speaker. The law in this province has been that the reports of the Chief El ectoral Officer should be referred to the stand ing committee, and we are prepared for the first time in Manitoba history to ref er the reports, not only of the 19 99 general election, when that report is ready, but 19 88, 19 90, 19 91. 19 95, 19 97 and 19 98 will be done. The point of order, Mr. Spe aker, is a dis pute over the facts in any event. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does not have a point of order. It is a di spute over the facts.

I would remind all honourable members, when raising a point of

July 18 , 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 413 3 order, they should not use the opportunity to ask a question. *** Mr. Doer: Mr. Spea ker, I already indica ted to the Member for River Heig hts (Mr. Gerrard), when he asked the question about the statutory reports, that a number of reports have not been ref erred by the previous government to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. We are willi ng to, and fe el that it is neces sary to ref er all the past reports from '88 on to the standing committee. We inquired about the progress on the '99 report that it is subject to the new 60-day law.

It is not yet completed, but certainly I am absolutely prepared to either go with the existing reports, which would not include the '99 report because it is not completed, or all the other past reports. the 19 88, '90, '9 1, '95, and '97 reports. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, the govern ments in the past have-and the members opposite may not have wanted to go to those all party committees in the past because they wanted to maintain the right of cabinet to determine the returning officers in the individual constituencies, which would have the right to break a tie. They wanted to keep that in cabinet.

We have now moved that power. * (14:10 ) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Mr. Spea ker. we have now adopted the Chief El ectoral Officer's report to remove the return ing officers from cabinet appointees. They are now going to be hired by the Chief El ectoral Officer. and all political parties will be consulted on that recommenda tion. Mr. Speaker, on the recommendations made to the people of Manitoba, we made a promise to the people of Manitoba. That is a promise we made to the people. It did not say we are going to make this subject to whether the Tories agree with it.

They can choose to vote for or against corporate donations to political parties. That is the democ ratic choice they have, and that is the democr atic mandate we received in the election. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. It is time for member s' statements. If honourable members wish to continue discussions, they can use the loge, or maybe out in the hallway. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Oak Valley Productions Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): On Thursday evening, I was one of the privileged invitees to take in the premiere staging of The Carpenter by the new Oak Valley Productions outdoor theatre . The Carpenter is a passion play that unfolds an intriguing dramatic portrayal of the last days of Jesus Christ on Earth. It was a tremendous presentation fe aturing an almost entirely local cast. The play ran throughout the weekend and will be fe ature d again next week. The site is La Rivie re, Pembina Valley. It is a very picturesqu e setting.

As impressive as the play itself was the incredible ef fort that was put forward by vol unteers to make the presentation possible. Over 150 individuals from all over the Pembina constituency contributed their time to the event, helping out with everything from props and costumes to preparing the site by providing food and bil leting to participants. * (14: 20) The production also benefited from the contributions of many sponsors, including the Government of Manitoba. I want to offe r my sincer est congratulations to all those who contributed, whether as a part of the cast, the crew or as vol unteers.

I am sure the thousands who took in the passion play over the weekend will agree with me in saying that it was a fantastic evening.

41 34 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 Prendergast Community Kitchen Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the staff and the vol unteers of the Child and Family Services Resource Centre for Windsor Park/Southdale, as well as the St. Boniface ad hoc committee on poverty, for initiating a community kitchen at the Prende rgast Centre. So far, there have been two community kitchens held bef ore the group took their break for the summer. They are going to be cooking every second week, with child care provided while family members cook together.

They are also serving lu nch to the building tenants to help fund purchases for the kitchen, and they are combining the community kitchen with a clothing depot. I want to recognize the women, many who live in the area, who helped to get this off the ground, and I want to recognize that two have already gone on to pursue a career in social work. Mr.

Spea ker, community kitchens are being recognized as a good vehicle for community development where people from the community come together not only to prepare low-cost and nutritious meals but to develop friendships. learn new recipes, lea rn to plan meals, have fun and meet new people. The way that community kitchen works is resources are pooled. Food is bought in bulk. People cook coll ectively in a public space and then share the home-cooked food among all the participating households.

This is really catching on, and recently this past spring in Winnipeg there was actually a conference to help organizations and interested neighbourhoods in organizing a community kitchen. It is a wonderf ul alternative or supplement to a food bank, which is also, unfortunately, neces sary in many of the communities across our province. In closin g, I ju st want to say that I fully support this initiative and look forward to visiting there many times in the future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Silver Courts Seniors Complex Mr.

Jim Penner (Steinbach): I am pleased to inform the House about another important project which is progressing in my constituency. On Tuesday, July 11 , I had the pl easure of joining with Niverville Mayor Cla re Braun and Mary Zacharias, secretary of Silver Courts Seniors Complex, to tum the sod and begin construction of Phase III of Niverville's Silver Courts Seniors Complex. This phase will add an additional I 0 units to the 20 that currently exist in the community.

I would note that this is a marked improvement from what existed only a fe w years ago when seniors were forced to leave the community of Nivervi lle for lack of available housing. Mr. Speaker, a special note of thanks goes out to Mr. Abe Goer tzen who is the president of the Sil ver Courts board and the project organizer. He has worked tirelessly to see this project develop and grow and is deserving of recognition for the special part he played in making this community project a reality. As well, I would note that Mr.

Goer tzen serves as the seniors' resource co-ordi nator for Niver ville, so has truly committed himself to improving the lives of seniors in our area. The town of Nivervi lle is a very progressive community which has seen strong growth in recent years. It has been active in promoting itself as a tremendous place to raise a family. Yet, while it is a community which is working hard to better itse lf , it still lacks some important amenities for a town its size, such as a primary health unit. I know that our Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) is aware of this need, and I am certain that he is working hard to ensure it becomes a reality in the very near future. I would like to commend the citizens of Niverville, along with the Mayor and council, for helping to better Manitoba by improving their community. They have set an example for what a community can achieve by working together. Manitoba Centennial Foundation Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): On July 13 , 2000, I had the pl easure of attending a unique

July 18 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4135 cele bration, the official meeting of the directors of the Manitoba Centennial Foundation for the Future Board. The Premier brought greetings to the centennial babies then and di rectors today, a very special group of people who have the respon sibil ity of selecting a project for people of Manitoba. Chaired by the Minister of Culture, Heri tage and Tourism (Ms. McGifford), the three-hour meeting focused on deciding how the money set aside in a trust fund since the year of the centennial babies' births would be used.

This meeting was the fulfilment of a 30- year -old dream held by the Manitoba Centennial Corporation, chaired by the late Maitland Steinkopf, whose wife Helen is still on the Board and was at the meeting. Mr. Steinkopf and others pla yed a pivotal role in the development of the Centennial Concert Hall where the July 13 event was held. Thirty years ago they believed that an investment in the future would pay off, and indeed it had, for the trust fund grew to $49,000. This initiative created a special sense of respon sibil ity among the centennial babies.

The Manitoba Centennial Foundation for the Future started by the Board donating $10 for every baby born in Manitoba on six specific birthdays during 19 70-a total of 305 children. It proved dif ficult over the years to keep track of them, but 10 3 of the ISO located still live in Manitoba; 50 attended the July 13 meeting. The centennial babies decided to dedica te the trust fund of $49,000 for an annual celebration towards the arts and culture of childr en in Manitoba. They also decided to continue by keeping in touch with one another. The 19 70 board memb ers' dream was fulf illed. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Missing Youth-Community Search Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I had a happy announcement to make with regard to the homecomi ngs in my constituency, but I am going to set those aside and ask all members of this House to join me in a statement that I want to make and a mes sage that I want to send to the people of the Dauphin community, specifical ly the Malla rd area, in the search that is now being undertaken for a young boy who was lost in the woods last Saturday evening.

I would ask all members of this House to join me in ext ending hope to the family and in exten ding our best wishes to the communities and the people who are involved in the search for this young boy. Now this young boy is only eig ht years old. According to his grandmother, and I think we all join her in believing that indeed he is still out there alive and is surviving because, as his grandmother said, he is a very smart boy. Mr.

Speaker, we go through this from time to time where our young child ren sometimes wander away and are lost, and it is just amazing how quickly communities come together and organize themselves to search for these lost li ttle chil dren who sometimes go astray either on picnics or on excursions into the woods. Today I simply want to ask the House to join me in extending our very best wishes to that community and certainly in extending hope to the family and to the friends of this family that their young boy will come back home saf e to them. Committee Changes Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, I have two committee changes. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: Southdale (Mr. Reimer) for Minnedosa (Mr. Gill eshammer). Motion agreed to. Mr. Speaker: The Member for Pembina with a committee change? * (14: 30) Mr. Dyck: Yes, another committee change. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments for July 25 be amended as follows: Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith) for Fort Whyte (Mr.

Loewen); Russell (Mr. Derkach) for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner); Springfield (Mr. Schuler) for

413 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 Morris (Mr. Pitura); and Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik). Motion agreed to. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): I move, seconded by the Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: St. James (Ms. Korzen iowski) for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli); The Maples (Aglugub) for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff). Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Spea ker, would you plea se call the following: first, on second readings, Bills 45 and 48; second, on deba te on second readings , Bills 6 and 21. SECOND READINGS Biii45-The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk), that Bill 45, The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act (Loi modifia nt Ia

Loi sur Ia pension de retraite des enseignants), be now read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Spea ker, the Government of Manitoba is ple ased to be able to respond positively to concerns raised by fe male teachers in the province. Their concern relates primarily to the fact that women who take lea ve from their teaching positions or simila r professional jobs in the public school system in order to have child ren are precluded by existing legisla tion from purchasing maternity leave up to 17 weeks as pensionable service. Mr.

Spea ker, this amendment to The Teachers' Pensions Act provides that opportunity for purchase of service and to do so at regular contribution rates. Regular rates mean that government will pay what is commonly known as the employer's share; in other words, a contribution which matches that paid by the indivi dual teacher. Mr. Speaker. the Government of Manitoba believes that such an amendment is long overdue, serving as it does to address an issue of gender and to provide equity where none has previously existed. Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Seine River (Mrs.

Dacquay), that debate be ad journed. Motion agreed co. Bill 48-The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act Hon. Jean Friesen (Minister of Intergovern mental Affairs): I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture. Herit age and Tourism (Ms. McGifford), that The Rural Development Bonds Amendment Act; Loi modif iant Ia

Loi sur les oblig ations de developpement rural, be now read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Ms. Friesen: It is my pleasure to introduce today amendments to The Rural Development Bonds Act. This act is being amended to enable us to look at potential pro je cts in the city of Winnipeg. Under the current act, the program excludes the city of Winnipeg, and with these amendments we are proposing that the Grow Bonds Program will be available more broadly. Hence the new name proposed for The Rural Development Bonds Act is The Community Development Bonds Act. Mr.

Spea ker, our government recognizes the achieveme nts Manitobans have made through the use of development bonds to esta blish or expand local industries. Currently, rural-based entrepreneurs can gain the financial support of local investors who purchase bonds through a community bond

July 18 , 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 413 7 corporation which makes an investment in the entrepreneur's venture. This locally based approach to economic development has con tributed to the growth of small businesses that has benefited some parts of rural Manitoba's economy. The program, Mr. Speaker, has been used in many other parts of the world.

Most closely it was developed by our neig hbour province Saskatchewan, but I think wherever it has been used successf ully, it suggests that when people have an opportunity to invest in themselves and people they know. that it can lead to the growth of strong and healthy communities. Mr. Spea ker, we heard at our economic summit about the importance of raising capital in Manitoba, and our government is committed to helping to create the conditions that will attract new inves tment to Manitoba. In particular, we want to provide a vehicle through which Winnipe ggers may invest in the future economy of their city.

Winnipeg is our major city, Mr. Speaker. It is not the only one, but it is one of the most important gateways for new money, for new entrepreneurs. as well as for citizens who want to invest at home. It is important that it grow and that it prosper and that its benefits can be applied to all of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, when I am speaking in rural Manitoba, I emphasize there the importance of the health of the city of Winnipeg to all Manitobans, and, equal ly, when I speak to urban Manitobans, I emphasize to them the importance of a healthy rural economy and the dir ect impact it has upon the economies of both Brandon and Winnipeg. The broader context for the change and the opportunity for Winnipeggers to look at Grow Bonds as an instrument of economic developmen t. the context of that is exactly that, the importance of the growth and the future economy of Winnipeg.

In this context we should look at the initiative that our government has announced to promote and encour age inner city revitali zation through Neig hbourhoods Alive!. Neig hbourhoods Aliv e! is aimed at addr essing the social, econom ic, educati onal, and saf ety issues that have an impact on many of our neig hbourhoods. It is making the links between all of these programs, going beyond building houses to building communities and rebu ilding hope.

By reorienting our thinking toward a more community-based model, we will be giving neighbours, neig hbourhoods including businesses, the opportunity to build and grow in the city of Winnipeg, as well as g1vmg Manitobans a chance to support inves tment opportunities in the city. Mr. Spea ker, amendments to The Rural Development Bonds Act also go beyond this. Other proposed amendments are aimed at spec ifying that the Province receive some security for providing financial guarantees for bond corporations.

We are also in proposing these amendments to maximize returns to Manitobans who invest in bond corporations and to protect the Government's position on our bond guarantees. It also provides the Government with greater flexibility in being able to appoint an agent who would be able to manage and administer the bond corporation's investment. Under the current act, there are not specific provisions to do this. We also want to expand participation in community development bonds by allowing co-operatives to participate in the program.

I look forward to having these amendments move forward, so that we may give Manitobans the opportunity to consider the possibil ity of these tools to invest in businesses in the city of Winnipeg. We shall be taking this one step at a time, working with many community partners in the city of Winnipeg who are involved in economic and community development. I want to finally emphasize that this will not take away from rural Manitoba. We are very aware of the value this has had in some parts of rural Manitoba.

We intend to maintain the office for the Grow Bonds Program in Al tona, and we want to be very supportive of all kinds of economic development outside of the city of Winnipeg. I hope that members will understand, as we have explained in press releases and as I have

4138 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 8, 2000 tried to explain in these brief comments, this is not intended to take away in any way, in any measure at all, from the Grow Bonds Program in rural Manitoba. This is intended to expand it, to enable us step-by-step to look at its potential for the city of Winnipeg. Thank you. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that deba te be ad journed. Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bi116-The Water Resources Conservation and Protection and Consequential Amendments Act * (14: 40) Mr.

Speaker: To resume debate on second readings, on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Cons ervation (Mr. Lathlin), Bill 6, The Water Resources Conservation and Protection and Consequential Ame ndments Act (Loi sur Ia conser vation et Ia protection des ressources hydriques et modifi cations corn!latives), standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire). Is it the will of the House to keep it remained stand ing? An Honourable Member: Stand. An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Stand? Leave has been denied. Mr. Harry Eons (Lakeside): Mr.

Spea ker, there is a saying about a leo pard not changing his spots or something like that. An Honourable Member: That is right. I remember. Mr. Enos: Remember that? We have a debate here about old Democ rats and New Democ rats that takes pla ce every once in a while.

This bill kind of reminds me of the old Democra ts of Howard Pawley in a time, regrettab ly, that had some legiti mate reasons for concern in the world when the super powers, the Soviet Union, that evil empi re-as my friend the then-President of United States liked to ref er to it-was stand ing and threate ning the freedom of the world as represented by the United States. The old New Democr ats were going to do something about it here in Manitoba, and they decla red Manitoba to be a nuclea r-free zone. I think, Mr. Speaker, if we check, that legisla tion is still on the books.

We were going to be a nuclear-f ree zone. I mean, it does not matter what Moscow is going to do or what Washington is going to do, but here in Manitoba, we were going to be a nuclear-f ree zone. Well, of course, Mr. Speaker, you have to understand the times. Those were the times when the ban the bombers and the peace movement could rally five, six, ten thousand people on the streets on a fine Sunda y afternoon to march. But how does that relate to this bill, Mr. Speaker?

This bill is a pandering to the Maude Barlows of this world, the ultranationalists who concern themselves and who pass silly legisla tion that piggybacks on the fe ar that these people put on innocent Manitobans and Canadians that we are about to rid ourselves of a natural resource that is a renewable resource that we have an abundant quantity of. But to tap into that li ttle bit of politics that is out there, that concern about the exportation of water. we are passing a bill to ban water out of Manitoba. And when are we doing it?

We are doing it in a year when if you asked a lot of average Manitobans, they would say, good Lord, how much water do we have to put up with? And you, Mr. Speaker, know better than perhaps anybody in this chamber how all of that water draining from one of the world's largest watershed dis tricts; from the Rockies, where the Churchill finds its roots; from the North Saskatchewan, the South Saskatchewan pouring into Lake Winnipeg; from Ontario through to Wisconsin, where the Winnipeg river system pulls out all its water and pours it into the east side of Lake Winnipeg; and from our own rivers

July 18 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 413 9 on the Prairies here, the Assiniboine, the Red River pouring into Lake Manitoba, all of that fresh, potable water empties out into the saltwaters of the oceans up at Hudson Bay through our mighty rivers, the Nelson, Churchill, the Hayes, and is forever lost to us, forever lost to mankind for any potential possible use. This is the kind of thing that the New Democr ats are very good at, pandering to the politics out there but makes li ttle, li ttle common sense. It will be interesting to hear this bill being debated at the committee stage.

I would assume that the Government will have its fair share of support coming to the Committee to debate the Bill, but it is not a bill of substance. The Bill does allow for the exportation of all kinds of water, bottled water, tanker water and so forth, but in essence it is a bill that is not unlike Bill 5, for instance, that we will be debating in committee tomorrow. They put their finger out in the general public, they sense that there is a concern about penned hunting, and, bingo, they come in with a bill.

Mind you, the Bill does not mention penned hunting, but it enables them to say that they are doing something in this regard. For reasons that I could never understand, Canadians have a paranoia about the exportation of freshwater. When I say a paranoia, I really do not understand it. It is, as I said, a renewable resource and in some years comes to us with a quantity that we can hardly handle, lik e this year. If we in Manitoba, quite frankly, could export a bit of water and reduce our taxes, take the taxes off gasoline, water could do for Manitoba what oil has done for other jurisdictions.

Water could improve our health care system. Water could improve our education system. Water could help all our farmers in need, Mr. Speaker. But, no, we are so concerned about the real scary thing that we might actually even be helping our American neig hbours, you know, by providing them in times of need with some water. I mean that is a ter rible thing. You know, beggar your neig hbour is what we have to be concerned about.

So this government, having protected us in the years gone by from any nuclear problems by passing a law that said Manitoba is going to be nuclear free, I mean, there may be hundreds of bombs exploding all around us, but the NDP government under Howard Pawley did the political thing and told Manitobans not to worry about nuclear wars or nuclea r explosions; Manitoba is nucl ear free. I classify this piece of legisla tion as this kind of nonsense-type of legisla tion that panders to that kind of paranoia that regrettab ly is out there in some Manitobans' minds, but we will see what happens at committee stage.

We are prepared to let it move on to committee stage. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr. Spea ker, I am ple ased to be able to stand today and provide some hopefully sobering second thoughts in regard to Bill 6. This particular bill, as I have had the opportunity to review, I am very much disma yed in regard to why this bill has even come forward at this point in time. I know it is very much to this government's liking to do things that are politically expedient.

I belie ve at the present time that there is a push from the fe deral government to have provinces jump on board with this type of legis lation that is in fact much in keeping with the present fe deral government's stance on the national joint commission as it pertains to bounda ry waters and watersheds. I belie ve that this biii is to, in fact, show that Manitoba is wanting to be very much a follower in this respect. This particular legisla tion, as we have been able to review here, is totally redundant as to the powers of the Minis ter as they exis t today under other biiis.

The Minister has within his powers all that this legisla tion is providing for in print already. To have another piece of legisla tion on the books is not only clu ttering the li brary of this Chamber but all other government offices that must have the records of legisla tion that are passed within this Chamber. This particular biii ref ers to the bulk export of water. A resource that is wholly owned by the Province of Manitoba, a resource, Mr. Spea ker, that I believe is one that we have yet to examine of its full potential for not only the residents of this province but residents throughout the globe.

I might just make most specific ref erence to the waterways of size that dump their waters into the Hudson Bay, which is an exten sion of the

414 0 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 Atlantic Ocean and a saltwater body. The two water systems, that being the Nelson and the Churchill Rivers, in fact, provide to the basin an extensive amount of water on a second-by second basis. I do not know whether members can really truly imagine the volume of water that travels into the Bay, and I will be more specific in regard to the Churchill River itself.

Recently, the Churchill River, with the co operation of Manitoba Hydro, a weir was constructed just up from Churchill, which provided a basin of water for the town's freshwater source domestic use, as well as provided for a definition between the freshwater and the saltwater of the bay. That particular weir before its construction. there was a great deal of study of the estuary around the Churchill town and the Churchill River mouth.

It was most interesting that the estuary is a minor one and, in fact, the waters that travel from the Churchill River into the bay as freshwater really do not have a great deal of impact because of the significant tidal surge at that part of the bay. In fact, the saltwater is indeed right at the shoreline and even the amounts discharged at the Churchill River has very, very little effect. * (1 4:50) We talk of freshwater resource.

Imagine the cool, pristine waters of the Churchill River that are used by the town of Churchill with very, very minor processing, little chlorination before the residents of Churchill can consume the water. Throughout the globe, there are many, many areas that are drought-ravaged, and many residents throughout our global community are going without clear, clean drinking water. The water that is dispensed into the bay by the Churchill River is significant.

I might just perhaps draw the Speaker's attention that the reason this bill is before us today was out of a permit that was issued by the Province of Ontario to Nova Group Lim ited. There seemed to be such an outcry by those persons who had little or no knowledge of water and the recharge and the amount of potential exportable resource that this country has. This particular permit that was issued by the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources was soon rescinded because of the media attention it garnered. The environmentalists without any knowledge or research had in fact drawn such attention.

It was attention that should not in fact have been drawn, because the amount of water that was in fact permitted by Nova Group Limi ted to be exported out of this country by a tanker loading in the Lake Superior was so miniscule. In fact, the amount of water that we were talking about being exported under this permit reflected a mere 31 seconds of Churchill River.

Thirty-one seconds of Churchill River flow was the amount of water that was going to be allowed to be exported by the permit that the Ministry of Natural Resources of the Province of Ontario that caused all this national upheaval. that all provincial governments were requested by the federal government to pass companion legis lation that in fact was the thrust to prevent any bulk export of water. Wel l. Mr.

Speaker, as far as those that have studied the waters that travel through our province that are part of the Hudson Bay drainage basin, these waters are significant and these waters. once they hit the bay. are lost to domestic consumption because they imme diately mix with the saltwaters of the Hudson Bay. which is an extension of the Atlantic Ocean. Effectively. these waters are spent. They are of no further value to the domestic consumption.

As I mentioned earlier, Hydro commissi oned a very. very in-depth study of the estuary around the Town of Churchill and the Port of Churchill before the construction of the Churchill River weir. The estuary is, as I say. at best minor because of the tidal action. So if in fact one was to consider exporting water from the Port of Churchill, which we have as a viable deep water port that other provinces do not have, we in this Legisla ture should be very, very considerate of that potential.

As I mentioned. we are talking a mere 31 seconds of water flow out of the Churchill River. cool, clear, pristine water of the Churchill River that could very easily be a natural resource that we in the province of Manitoba can share within our global community. I think it is a terrible, terrible action of this legisla ture to consider passage of this bill. In fact, there are second sobering thoughts happening in other provinces as wel l. Quebec had simila r legisla tion to what we are debating

July 18 , 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 4141 here in the House. They have taken that legisla tion and set it aside at this time and are no longer progressing with it, because they too have rivers that dispense significant amounts of water into the bay as well as into the strait and into the Atlantic ocean as well, where waters are lost. One has to consider the shortage that much of the globe has experienced. One wants to be able to take that natural resource and that natural resource can be shared with those areas that are in distress. The Honourable Minister of Family Services says water is not lost.

Water is a renewable resource and is, however, in different states throughout the globe. One can only use certain states of that particular water. When one is looking at water within the oceans and significant amounts of salt, it takes a great deal of processing to remove that salt and to make it a domestically consumable liquid. I know the Minister of Family Services is critical of me standing in the House today opposing this particular piece of legisla tion, but he also must recognize that there is another state of water that exists in a body of water known to all of us in this Chamber as Devil's Lake.

Yet he is very, very against seeing any of that water come within the confines of our Red River system. As much as he is concerned about Devil's Lake, I am concerned about the loss of the spent waters of both the Nelson and the Churchill River systems into the bay without real, clear consideration of the potential for export of this natural resource. I know another honourable colleague of the Chamber said, for what price? Well, I am not considerate of price at this time. I am not considerate of what revenues this would draw to the Treasury of this province.

What I am concerned is about losing a valuable resource to the global community, because to recoup that resource once it is mixed with saltwater takes an immense amount of energy and processing. So one has to reconsider why we have this particular piece of legisla tion in front of us today.

Are we going to be part of the herd of provinces that have fallen into line with the federal government because it is politically expedient, or are we going to join perhaps the ranks of those in the Quebec legisla ture that are sitting back for the moment and examining their legislation as to whether or not it is a piece of legisla tion that they want . to have in their province? I say, Mr. Speaker, that I personally do not believe that this legisla tion is something that we as Manitobans want as Jaw within our province.

If one is wanting to manage our natural resources, all they have to do is look at The Water Resources Act that is already in place as Jaw within this province. The Minister has all of the responsibil ities already within his power that is referred to in this bill, Bill 6, The Water Resources Conservation and Protection and Consequential Amendments Act. As I stand here this afternoon addressing the debate regarding Bill 6, I stand as a member of this Legisla tive Assembly without political motive, specifically stating my concerns that anyone, if they take time to examine all of the information would have.

I chall enge the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale) to sit down but an hour or two and examine the potential of this valuable natural resource that is effectively being spent and lost to the global community and to this province as we could provide for humanitarian and other potential means to the global community. I just ask, Mr. Speaker, that all membe rs of this Chamber give significant thought to this particular bill prior to their comm itment to either defeating it or passage into law, because I believe that there should be due consideration given by this Minister of Con servation (Mr.

Lathlin) truly in the spirit of the name of his department, that being Conservation, to conserve and make best use of a natural resource of this province. So, Mr. Speaker, I know I could go on, because I am very, very concerned about this legislation. I truly believe that it is a bill that is unnecessary. One must give all consideration possible for the future and be not led by the hand-if I might say-of the federal government into providing legisla tion that is for no other intents and purposes other than politically expedient.

So with those few words on the record, I ask all honourable members of this Chamber to truly give this piece of legislation its

414 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 just time for its evaluation and consideration. I think that they will all find that this particular bill is one that should remain upon the Order Paper and never see law in this particular province. Thank you. * (15 :00) Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I want, also, to put a few comments on the record about Bill 6, and I appreciate the opportunity to do so. I want to echo the comments of the two previous speakers, the Honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) and the Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou).

There is absolutely no need for this bill to be before the House. In some ways, it is a bit of a catch-22, because here I am taking up time speaking to a bill which by all means should not even be here, because there is absolutely no reason for this bill to be here. with one exception. That exception became fairly obvious to me very soon after I was newly elected to this House. After the election on September 21, as most new members, I became very dil igent about reading all the mail that came my way. As we all know, in this House there certainly is a lot of paper that passes over our desks as the day goes on.

Sure enough, lo and behold, on November 16 , I received a letter from Paul Moist, President of CUPE Manitoba explaining to me in great detail Mr. Moist's and the view of other members of the union that their next big fight, the next fight for this union is going to revolve around water. No doubt they staked their line in the sand at a national water summit that was put on by CUPE and the Environmental Law Association and, of course, the Council of Canadians. So this, Mr. Speaker, fully explained to me why the Government put this bill before the House at this time.

Again, all it is is pandering to their union bosses, something that we have seen day in and day out as this House has been sitting. This is a government that for some reason thinks it is necessary to put a spin on everything they bring before this House and is for some reason reticent to tell the people why some of their legisla tion is really here. We see that day in and day out. We saw the spin on the Budget and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) standing up day after day trying to convince people that, lo and behold, he had reduced taxes, when, in fact, he had increased taxes.

We find the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) now, day after day, standing up, telling us about Bill 44, how she consulted widely and how business had lots of opportunity to have input on her legis lation, when, in fact, we know that her legisla tion was simply drafted to meet the requirements of the union bosses. Here we are. right from Day One, one of the very first bills that was introduced to this House by this new government is nothing more than pandering to their union friends, to their union bosses. I mean, ;t is right here, right here in the literature that came from Mr. Moist.

Some of it even appears to be plagiarized directly in the Bill. I am sure with his permission, but certainly in terms of Mr. Moist's view. what is this all about? This is about union jobs. So that, at the end of the day, is what the Government is pandering to. They are pandering to the head of the union who has taken up a crusade. and, you know, from his perspective, quite rightly. His job is to ensure that his union grows and that more and more employees are subject to his union.

That is the nature of his business, so why would he not jump on an opportunity to drive a stake in the sand and fight anybody who comes along with any idea to benefit the citizens of this country or of this province through some reasonable economic proposal regarding water? Mind you, no one has come along with that. Certainly there has been no indication in the province of Manitoba that anybody is interested in the bulk removal of water. We have no corporations asking for licences on a regular basis. I mean, there is nothing here. So there is no reason for this bill, other than to provide some comfort to Mr.

Moist that, well, thanks for his support over the years, that this government will tum around and pass legislation at his request. There is no doubt that it is at his request. It is at the request of the union. It is at the request of CUPE, because when they talk about the three

July 18 , 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 414 3 major strategies, sure enough, there, No. 2 in terms of the CUPE strategies for their next great fight for saving union jobs is the strategy to pass legisla tion banning the bulk removal and export of water. So what has this government done? They have come along with a hastily drafted piece of legislation. Fundamentally, it is kind of wrapped in motherhood. It is not a bad issue for this Legisla ture to discuss at some point in terms of our future use of this great resource which we have been blessed with bountifully in this province. Even in Mr.

Moist's document that he sent along, he admits readily that water may become the oil of the next mille nnium. Well. when used properly, it is a resource that could be captured for the benefit of all Manitobans. So I would say to this House, I would say to the people in this Legisla ture. let us keep our eyes open. Let us think outside the box. Let us look for opportunities that will benefit all Manitobans. But, no, the NDP Government cannot do that. They have to listen to their bosses. They have to listen to their supporters, and I guess do as they have been requested. I am sure Mr. Chri stophe and Mr.

Moist had a Jot to do with the labour legislation, what was brought before this House. I am sure Mr. Kostyra had a lot to do with the Budget that was brought before this House. I think it is unfortunate that this government does not just stand up and tell the people of Manitoba exactly what they are doing. Why does this government not just have the courage to stand up and say: Look, the next big union fight, the next big fight for union jobs is water. and we are going to help them along?

We are going to pass a bill which real ly has no ramification to anybody in the province of Manitoba except that narrow, self-centred interest group which has supported us over the years and which we are going to pay back. * (15:10 ) I am sure the people of Manitoba would understand that. They would say, well, look, that makes a certain amount of sense. We understand that Mr. Moist and CUPE have been strong supporters of your party over the years, particularly over the last 11 .5 years in opposition.

Now that you are in power, it is understandable maybe that you want to pander to them a little bit and throw this piece of legisla tion, which is really pretty meaningless at this present point out to them. But. no, they do not. They cannot stand up and tell the people that. Their spin doctors will not allow it, so they have to stand up and coat themselves in motherhood and invent reasons for this legisla tion being brought before this House. So that is what they have done. We are glad to move this bill along to a committee, but let us discuss it there openly. Let us have a free discussion on what it actually is.

Let us talk about the role that Mr. Moist and the unions had in drafting this bill. Let us have Mr. Moist come to comm ittee and tell us what it is actually all about and how he is trying to use this government and use this bill to ensure that he is abie to increase his base in his union, to increase his sphere of influence, and maybe at the same time we could hear from some other labour leaders in terms of what their actual agenda is as they are in cahoots with this government. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate this opportunity to speak to this bill.

I wanted to put on the record what this bill is really all about and who this government is pandering to. It is a little bit ironic that we have the same old NDP Government, who has introduced a bill talking about water conservation and the perils of the bulk export of water when most of their members, the vast majority of their members represent a city which gets all of its drinking water from another province.

Maybe this government should look at a bill regarding the bulk importation of water, if that is something they are really serious about, the environment. really serious about having a long-term plan, and really serious about providing the infrastructure that Mr. Moist calls for. Let us talk about the bulk importation of water and see where that goes. This bill is going to move on to comm ittee. I hope that we have a full and open discussion on this bill and its future ramifications. It is also another indication to any of the entrepreneurs in this province, to any businesses that the doors are closed.

It is not the time in the province's

414 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 history to be thinking outside the box. It is not the time to be innovative, to try and create new economic opportunities, new jobs, new industry for this province. It is a time to put our heads. some might say, back in the sand, I would say underneath the water in this case, and once again, as we have seen with the recent labour legisla tion, revert to the past. Let us all go back to 19 46 and try and figure out what the world should be like today. Unfortunately we do not have that luxury. We have to look to the future with an open mind.

We have to be innovative in our thinking. We have to allow Manitobans to create opportunities in this province. Certainly there is no doubt, we see it already, what a tremendous resource the water is in this province in terms of Manitoba Hydro and the success it has had in exporting power. particularly to the U.S. and also to Ontario. It just shows where this government is at and how deep in the past they are mired. We examined Hydro the other day in committee.

Lo and behold, when you looked at the books of Hydro through the 10 years of the '80s that this government was in power for most of those years, six out of ten years that corporation suff ered a loss. The total loss when you added up everything for the 1 0 years was $7 mill ion. Then you look into the '90s, when certainly sound management and innovative thinking took over when that organization was put on a solid foundation. The people of Manitoba benefited to the tune of $570 mill ion, so a big difference in management styles. So this government can go back to the '80s.

This government can go back to the '40s in their labour legislation. This government can go back as much as they want. They can go back to regressive taxation. They can go back to crippling the business community in this province. But say what it is to the people of Manitoba. Have the courage, have the intestinal fortitude to stand up and say, well, look, Paul Moist wanted this bill, he called for this bill, and so we gave it to him because he has been a good friend of ours, and let us leave it at that. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr.

Speaker: The question before the House is second reading of Bi ll 6. The Water Resources Conservation and Protection and Consequential Amendments Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. An Honourable Member: On division. Mr. Speaker: On division. * (15 :20) Biii 21- The Water Resources Administration Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin). Bill 21. The Water Resources Adminis tration Amendment Act (Lo i modi fiant Ia

Loi sur l'amenagement hydraulique). standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Arthur-Vir den (Mr. Maguire). Is there a will of the House to leave it remain standing? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, Her Majesty's Official Opposition has examined the contents of this bill and recommends it to speedy passage at the committee stage. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is second reading of Bill 21, The Water Resources Admini stration Amendment Act.

July 18 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 414 5 Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wish to obtain the unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence of Estimates consideration, to consider in Room 254 the Estimates of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs ahead of the Estimates of the Department of Conservation for today only. Mr.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to vary the sequence of Estimates in Room 254, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs ahead of Conservation for today only? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Ms. Wowchuk), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker: Because of the unavailability of the Deputy Speaker. as well as one of the deputy chairpersons, the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schell enberg), the Honourable Member for St. James (Ms.

Korzeniowski) will chair the

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in the Chamber, and the honourable members for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoft) and Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau) will chair the

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 255. The Member for Dauphin-Roblin (Mr. Struthers) will chair the

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 254. The question before the House is that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty. Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ABORIGINAL AND NORTHERN AFFAIRS * (15: 30) The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Stan Struthers): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Comm ittee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. Does the Honourable Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs have an opening statement? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I would like to make a few opening rema rks regarding the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. Allow me to say, first of all, that I am very pleased to present the 2000-2001 Estimates of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs.

As the Minister of this department of the Government of Manitoba, I hope to preside over a time of great change. It is our desire and the desire of our department to help bring about a new era of trust and partnership with Aboriginal people throughout the province of Manitoba and especially with residents of the northern regions of our province. It is our department's objective to bring a new focus to the future developme nt of northern Manitoba. These are exciting times for the North and the people who live there.

The decisio ns we make now will have long-range impact and will lead to improved living conditions and oppor tunities we believe in northern communities. Our mandate is to co-ordinate and to promote mttJatiVes relating to Aboriginal peoples in northern communities. In order to address this dynamic environment of change, our approach has been to develop partnerships and co-operative approaches with communities, Aboriginal organizations, government depart ments and agencies, other levels of government and non-government bodies.

414 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 As the Minister responsible for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, I hope that we will be able to encourage contributions to the changes and to the processes of change that are af fecting Aboriginal people. We would like to improve economic and social opportunities and the quality of life for Aboriginal people in our province. Our government is committed to working government to government with First Nations and other Aboriginal peoples across Manitoba. We have begun to move on several areas in both action and consultation. would like to speak briefly, Mr.

Chairperson, about one of the more important areas in which we have made progress and which we intend to continue to progress in many ways. It sort of sets the tone for our administration of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. As you are aware, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was established. in April 19 88. to investigate the condition of Aboriginal people in the justice system. This was partly due to the unsolved or for the long-standing issue of the Helen Betty Osborne murder, and also the J. J. Harper shooting of that same year.

The scope of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry included all aspects of the system, which includes policing, courts and correctional services. The findings and recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry were released in the wide-ranging report of 19 91, I indicated earlier.

One of the main recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was to set up a commission to oversee impl ementation, and shortly after this government was formed last year, we esta bli shed the Aboriginal Justice Implemen tation Commission, the AJIC, to develop an action plan based on the recommendations of the Aboriginal Ju stice Inquiry. Wendy Whitecloud and Paul Chartrand are two co-chairs of the Commission, and these two people are very prominent people in the province of Manitoba, particularly in the Aboriginal community. Wendy Whitecloud is a member of the Dakota Nation from Sioux Valley, and Mr.

Paul Chartrand. of course, is a noted Metis Nation member. The Manitoba Government has since received the first quarterly report of the Aboriginal Justice Implemen tation Commis sion and has begun acting on its four main recom mendations. These recommendations include: entering into agreements with the Assembly of Manitoba Chi efs and the Manitoba Metis Federation to develop a plan that would result in First Nations and Metis communities developing and del ivering Aboriginal child welfare services; secondly, amending The

Interpretation Act of Manitoba to provide that all legis lation be interpreted subject to Aboriginal and Treaty Rights; thirdly, renouncing the provincial government's 50% interest in minerals on Indian reserves; and fourthly, initiating discussions with the Manitoba Metis Federation to address matters within the jurisdiction of Manitoba that have been the subject of recommendations by the .-\boriginal Ju stice Inquiry and the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples.

The AJIC has also identified I 0 priority areas for government action. including child welfare, equity across government, police. community justice, early support and crime prevention measures for youth, family violence, Aboriginal rights, Northern Flood Agreements, treaty land entitlements and Metis issues. These priority areas match a number of initiatives already announced by the province, specifical ly Neighbourhoods Alive! and the Healthy Child Initiative.

These strategies will focus on programs such as parent-child centres, prenatal and early chi ldhood nutntton, as well as housing, employ ment, recreation and safety initiatives that aid in building safe, stable and healthy communities. The esta blis hment of the Aboriginal Justice Impl ementation Commis sion is a solid first step, but a decade of neglect of Aboriginal justice concerns means that we have a lot of ground to make up. It is meaningful changes in our systems that are needed if we are to restore trust and rebuild hope among Aboriginal people living in Manitoba.

Our aim is to put in place comprehensive strategies that will deal with long-term inequities and injustices.

July 18 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 414 7 Mr. Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to provide an overview of our government's recently announced budget commitments in northern and Aboriginal Manitobans in the form of enhanced support for northern and Aboriginal programs, and new community and economic development initiatives. The new budget provides the necessary funding to carry out the government's plans to improve the infrastructure, community services and economic development of northern Manitoba.

The Budget is providing additional resources this year for the repair and construction of winter roads to some of Manitoba's most remote communities. Northern communities will also benefit from the $20 1 mil lion dedica ted in the Budget for highway construction and maintenance across the province. Vital health care services such as medical emergency transport will be enhanced through $5 mil lion in additional funding for northern, rural, and urban ambulance services.

Health care services will be more equitable for northern residents with the elim ination of the $50 fee charged to northern patients who are transported to southern medical facilities. Support for northern communities will rise as part of the 10 % increase in support to local governments. Manitoba's VLT revenue-sharing program will also provide $6 mill ion this year to northern and rural communities. Small business growth in northern Manitoba will be supported through a new team micro enterprise development program that provides micro-credit loans for northern entrepreneurs.

The Manitoba Self-Reliance Initiative will help 12 more northern communities provide sustainable local government services while also maintammg community infrastructure and revitalizing Manitoba communities as a key theme of this government and this department. * (15 :40) Northern Manitoba's largest urban centre, Thompson, will benefit from budget funding from the recently announced Neighbourhoods Alive! program.

Neighbourhoods Alive! is a long-term, community-based development strategy that provides community organizations with the support they need to rebuild neighbourhoods in Thompson, Brandon and also in the city of Winnipeg. As part of the Neighbourhoods Ali ve! program, the Budget provides $1 mil lion for housing initiatives outside of Winnipeg, including Thompson. Additional funding is also provided under the program for unemployment training, education, recreation and safety, and crime prevention initiatives.

Our government recognizes that a revitalized relationship with local governments is vital to our community and economic development efforts, and our plan includes a provision of significant resources to this end. In particular. I would like to make mention of several new and expanded programs specifically designed to benefit Aboriginal Manitobans. First of all, a new Aboriginal economic and resource development fund will provide $1 mil lion in additional funding to address economic, cultural, recreational and social needs.

Addressing the long-neglected needs of Aboriginal people in this province will help us build on societies that will no doubt present tremendous economic potential for all of Manitoba in years to come. Core funding to Aboriginal organizations will be restored to help promote self-reliance and economic development. We have recently begun this process with our initiative concerning funding for the 11 Aboriginal friendship centres in the province of Manitoba. Diabetes and dialysis programs in Aboriginal communities will be improved in partnership with the federal government.

The first emphasis of these initiatives will be on education regarding treatment, prevention and early detection of disease symptoms. We are also interested in examining the potential for research, the nature and the causes of the diseases in our Aboriginal populations. The emphasis is on keeping Aboriginal families together by offering community-based treatment programs whenever possible, as they deal with the impl ications of these diseases. Aboriginal participation in apprenticeship and training programs will be increased.

Additional programs will ensure Aboriginal youth are able to benefit from available job opportunities and fully participate in future economic growth.

4I4 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I8 , 2000 At this time, I would like to elaborate on some of the initiatives in which our government is involved. Mr. Chairman, we recently announced $700,000 in core funding for II friendship centres to promote self-reliance and economic development. The funding will be administered through the Manitoba Association of Friendship Centres, which represents the 11 facilities across this province. This announce ment fulfils our budget commitment to restore core funding to Manitoba Aboriginal organi zations.

The friendship centres play a vital role for urban Aboriginal people in this province. Since they were founded over 40 years ago, the volunteers and staff at the various facilities have helped thousands of men, women and child ren with the often difficult and confusing transition to life in larger urban centres. The centres have grown through each generation and now serve II communities across this province. The unique Aboriginal perspective of the organization has been key to its success.

As an organization built by Aboriginal people to meet the needs of Aboriginal people. it has never lost sight of its primary goal to serve the urban Aboriginal population. It has striven always to provide for its clients effective, community driven, relevant and culturally sensitive programming. It has not always been an easy process, and financial fortunes frequently shifted, not always for the better. This core funding we are providing will be a significant step forward in the promotion of Aboriginal self reliance and economic development.

These funds will help the friendship centres to expand their services to Aboriginal communities and develop long-term strategies to improve many aspects of life for urban Aboriginal people" Under this initiative, the Manitoba Association of Friendship Centres will use the first-year funding to develop a five-year program development action plan to identify community priorities and create long-term strategies.

This could include the development, implemen tation and evaluation of pilo t programs in the areas of culture, health, education, substance abuse, justice, social, recreation, housing, economic development, children, youth, family and elders. Staf f from the Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat of Manitoba, Aboriginal and Native affairs, will be meeting with MAC officials in the coming weeks to work out the details, review processes and budget requirements. I believe that we are all aware of the tremendous amount of work that still has to be done in urban and non-urban Aboriginal communities on many. many levels.

However, every step forward. such as this funding, needs to be acknowledged as an important accom pli shment in our shared struggle to move forward and build better communities with greater opportunities. Together. through organi zations such as the MAC and the individual friendship centres, we will continue to build upon the foundations we have built for our culture and for our people. We are del ighted to be able to restore this provincial support to the community-based organizations that are in the forefront of helping Aboriginal people to preserve their culture and participate in economic opportunities.

The 11 friendship centres are located in Brandon. Dauphin, Flin Flon. Lynn Lake. Portage Ia Prairie. Riverton. Selkirk, Swan River. The Pas. Thompson and Winnipeg. The centres were originally created in the 19 50s as the Indian and Metis friendship centres to assist Aboriginal people moving to urban com munities, to provide a variety of support services. The Winnipeg Friendship Centre, founded in 19 58. was the first such friendship centre in the country of Canada, and the movement to have a provincial organization was initiated by The Pas Friendship Centre in the early 19 70s.

As a result, MAC was formed to represent and lobby for the program and service needs of all centres in the province of Manitoba. This is the oldest Aboriginal organization that we have in the country and certainly in the province of Manitoba. because from the friendship centre movement came the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood, the forerunner to the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and the Manitoba Metis Federation. I would like to now tum to the issue of jobs and education for Aboriginal people in Manitoba. This past December, we attended a

July 18 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 414 9 federal-provincial-territorial conference of mini sters responsible for Aboriginal Affairs. Our official Manitoba delegation included the leaders of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, the Manitoba Metis Federation and the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg. This is how we see the need for partnership in government-to government negotiations. One of the most important areas for joint initiatives with First Nations and their organizations is preparing our young people for the workplaces and workplace chall enges of the future.

This includes ensuring that Aboriginal young people wi ll have equal opportunities for education, training and meaningful careers. We support and are working to fulfil the desire of young Aboriginal people to become actively and meaningfully involved in the Manitoba economy. Our government is pleased that we have been able to join with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs to increase the numbers of Aboriginal people qualifying in apprenticeship and training programs.

Back in November, we signed a financial support agreement with the Assembly of Manitoba Chi efs by which they will promote increased enrolment of Aboriginal trainees in apprenticeship and trade programs. Of course. we did that announcement with the Department of Education and Training. We intend to make this agreement reflect a new relationship with AMC and other Aboriginal organizations. We will work with them to identify and deal with skill shortages in First Nations communities.

Our agreement will also facil itate iclentification of high-demand occupations and increasing Aboriginal participation in apprenticeship and trades qualifications programs. We are also ass1stmg a Winnipeg construction firm in a project to train 20 Aboriginal people as heavy equipment operators in the construction field. Training will give them certification as heavy-duty construction equip ment operators. Manitoba is already a partner with the federal government in the field of Aboriginal employment training. We want to work with Ottawa and with Aboriginal organizations to strengthen such programs.

We also want to build on the success of initiatives like the Partners for Careers program, which is an excellent example of how a partnership of governments, the private sector and Aboriginal organizations can work for the benefit of Aboriginal young people. In nearly three years, this federal-Manitoba program has helped place 11 30 Aboriginal graduates in careers. The pace of success has stepped up in recent months in keeping with the program's target for this fiscal year, and that by placing 800 graduates.

These placements are conducted through two agencies, the Manitoba Association of Friendship Centres, which serves cli ents in urban, rural and northern Manitoba; and the Centre for Aboriginal Human Resource Development, which serves Winnipeg clients. In recent months the Manitoba Metis Federation and the province have signed a historic memorandum of understanding which will lead to the creation of a child and family service system for Metis people throughout Manitoba.

As well, an agreement between the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and the province has resulted in the signing of a simila r MOU which will expand delivery of child and family services to First Nations people living off reserve in Manitoba. Both agreements are based on recommendations put forward by the Aboriginal Justice Impleme ntation Commission. The agreement between the Manitoba Metis Federation and the Province of Manitoba is the first of its kind in Canada.

It means that Metis people will now be able to work towards del ivering services under The Child and Family Services Act as well as adoption services under The Adoption Act. * (15: 50) In the AMC agreement, five First Nations agencies provide services to 35 southern First Nations communities. They will see their jurisdictions expanded province-wide. The agreement will make it possible for Fi rst Nations agencies as well to deliver a full range of services under The Child and Family Services Act, as well the adoption services under The Adoption Act.

415 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 These agreements acknowledge that both Metis and First Nations famil ies have the right to control the deliv ery of child and family services. It creates hope for elders, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, and, most importantly, chi ldren to be raised within their own cultural traditions and beli efs.

Both agreements place the responsibil ity for chil dren with their famili es and communities, where it has always belonged, and both agreements recognize that locally developed solutions are the most effective and practical approach to ensuring self-determination and healthy communities. Negotiations for a self-government agree ment with Sioux Valley Dakota Nation and the federal government are progressing. We are confident that there will soon be an agreement in principle between the three parties, that being the federal government, the Sioux Valley Dakota Nation, and the Province of Manitoba.

I would also like to provide some details about the Aboriginal and Northern Affairs activity in the area of government or local government development. Since forming this new government our administration has demonstrated its comm itment to northern and Aboriginal peoples in numerous and tangible ways. The Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, under our direction, has undertaken to redress issues long neglected. To accommodate this we are increasing the Department's budget by 19 percent.

For example, within the budget we are comm itting an additional $1 00,000 for com munity development and training to address community-identified training priorities and also to provide authority to increased honorarium rates for mayors and council members who are assuming ever greater responsibil ity for the economic development and sustainabil ity of their communities; also an $83 8,000 in funding to northern communities for the provision and maintenance of municipal services.

This department and this budget strongly supports good governance through the development and empowerment of responsible local government by community councils and also through planning fiscal management in the delivery of municipal services and accountabil ity to local electors.

It also aims to improve the quality of life by ensuring a safe, healthy community environment through supporting communities; complia nce with Canadian drinking water standards through environmental regulations related to the management of waste and waste water; through the development and impl ementation of recreation programs and opportunities for youth; and through support for crime prevention, fire safety and emergency planning. We support community development through the creation of policy and program alternatives that respond to community identified needs.

We are doing this by partnering with other departments, jurisdictions and agencies in serving northern communities in a holistic manner to add respect to their culture, history and aspirations. To further improve communication, I have asked departmental staff in partnership with the Northern Association of Community Councils to undertake comprehensive consultations with community leaders and citizens, to identify their priorities and their concerns with past policies and practice.

Further to planning, our department is reviewing accounting and property tax collection systems, with a view of improving these systems to better serve communities. Our department is rebuilding our capacity to provide technical and engineering support services to communities in the planning and del ivery of infrastructure projects. To compl ement this initiative and to facil itate long-term planning, we are also undertaking a comprehensive analysis of water treatment requirements and internal roads.

This is consistent with the priority that this government places and what we place on safety and health of northern constituents and what we feel will lead to better planning and better solutions to the problems of water quality and aging infrastructure. So, Mr. Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak today about some of the many goals and important initiatives currently being worked on by the Government of Manitoba's Ministry of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs.

July 18 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4151 The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): We thank the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. I would ask the Of ficial Opposition critic, the Honourable Member for Morris. if he has any comments to make at this time. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): I just have a few comments and then we can get into the more in depth discussion of the Department itself. I will just maybe cover some of the areas that are within the Estimates process themselves, but before I do that I would like to congratulate the Minister.

I think I congratulated the Minister the last time when we had a one-minute session on being appointed as Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. I thank the Minister for the comments that he has made in his opening remarks. Some of the areas that I would like to spend a little bit of time in discussion, first in the area of urban reserves and the treaty land entitlement process. Als o, the Minister did ref erence the urban Aboriginal strategy. I think that we could maybe spend some time discussing that. Also.

I am very interested how the status of the Northern Flood Agreement is taking place and what stages we are at.

Then some of the other issues. basically the Minister talked about training, education for First Nations to spend some time discussing graduation rates for First Nations students: then going on to the federal-provincial relations, it always seems that there is always a jurisdictional dispute or a hand-off in terms of jurisdiction. and how that is coming together; as well as the situation with the development of the titanium mine at Cross Lake and some areas; then into the viabil ity of the Port at Churchill; whether or not the expansion of Manitoba Hydro operations in the north; the incorporation of municipalities such as South Indian Lake in the North; as well as, I think the Minister, just at the latter end of his remarks, talked about capital infrastructure programs for northern communities.

So those are just some of the areas that I think as we go through the departmental Estimates, Mr. Chairman, that we can spend some time having a discussion. I just hope that we have adequate time. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): I thank the Honourable Member for Morris for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, the debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the Department. Accordingly, we shall def er consideration of this item and now proceed with the consideration of the next line.

Before we do that, we invite the Minister's staff to join us at the table and ask the Minister to introduce his staff when they arrive at the table. Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairman, with me today is the Deputy Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, Oliver Boule tte, as, I am sure, my colle ague the Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura) well knows; also Mr. Harvey Bostrom, the Executive Director of our Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat. Mr. Gord Wakeling is the Director of the Communities Economic Development Fund, and Mr.

Rene Gagnon is the Director of our administration and finance division within the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): I thank the Minister for those introductions. We will now proceed to line 19 .1. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Executive (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $605,800, on page 23 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass? * (16: 00) Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairman, one question with respect to this subappropriation, I notice in the area of Other Expenditures transportation has increased from 66. 1 to 96. 1, and I was just wondering if there was any information to explain the increase. Mr. Robinson: I thank the Member for that question. That primarily is to improve and to ensure that services reach the communities and what we are responsible for, the 51 communities under the jurisdiction of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs.

415 2 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 At the same time, why there may be a reflection or an increase is that before the change of government we shared staff with the old Energy and Mines division, so that is why it would appear that there has been an increase. But the level of services has remained and expanded to a large degree to give our department an opportunity to expand services to those areas of northern Manitoba that require it. Mr.

Pitura: So I am to understand then that the devolving of Energy and Mines from the Department, there was some shared transportation costs between the two, and now this is solely reflected in the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. Mr. Robinson: Yes, Mr. Chairman. that is correct. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed. Item 19.l .(b )

(2) Other Expenditures $240,800. Shall the item pass? Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairman, I had a question with regard to the operations with Aboriginal and Northern Affairs which I have on my page 18 . Is that within that area? [interjection] Other Expenditures, I will pass that. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): Item 19 .l .(b )

(2) Other Expenditures $240,800 -pass. 19 .2. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Operations (

a) Financial and Administrative Services ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $349, 10 0. Shall the item pass? Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairman, looking in terms of some of the aspects of the Aboriginal and Northern Affairs opera tions, it indicates here: "Promotes development of innovative policy options, which represent a fundamental change in the way government relates to Aboriginal people." I was wondering if the Minister would care to expand on that particular goal, in ways that he sees how government will change in terms of how it relates to Aboriginal people. Mr.

Robinson: I believe that it is important that Aboriginal people, particularly the communities that we represent. the 51 communities under our jurisdiction of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. are given an opportunity. I know that my col league and my critic earlier indicated that he wanted to embark upon a bit of a discussion on some of the relations, including the federal-provincial relations. some work that we were doing in the area of urban reserves and TLE.

I think it is very important with respect to his question directly that we embark upon a new relationship with Aboriginal people. not only the ones we represent in the 51 NACC communities. but definitely with First Nations people. We have been trying to relate to First Nations people in the nine months we have been a pan of this process. Being a pan of the Government in the province of Manitoba is to deal with First Nations, as an example, on a government-to government basis. We want to be able to make some changes in our department. It is one of the smaller departments within the Government of Manitoba.

There are many needs in these communities that we represent. We have a dramatic shonage of housing. We have of course in First Nations communities many shortages including housing, which is probably the first and foremost issue. In some communities we do not have running water as such. It is still an item that is not realized by many communities. So we have to have a different approach, we feel. in dealing with Aboriginal people. We have to make them feel a pan of the process.

By that it gives us an opportunity to embark upon relationships with the federal government, as an example, in trying to make substantial changes in the way of life of Aboriginal people in the province of Manitoba. An example would be the recent announcement that we made in Garden Hi ll for the Isla nd Lake Reserves. The four Isla nd Lake communities, of course, are Waasagemach, Red Sucker Lake, St. Theresa Point, and Garden Hill.

Garden Hill is an example of a community, a reserve, a First Nations community that has 330 0 First Nations people resident in the community, and not one of the housing units has running

July 18 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 415 3 water. There are 350-plus people at last count that require housing. That is the immedia te need. So we need to work with these communities and also find partners, whether it be from the private sector or from the federal government, to begin addressing these long-standing issues that have existed. I do not think I would be realistic in saying that we are going to achieve all those things. but certainly we have to make an effort.

Further to the Isla nd Lake area we recently signed a memorandum of understanding that will address the needs of Aboriginal people with respect to dialysis treatment that is needed. In that area. which they tell me is populated by 10 000 First Nations, Aboriginal and non Aboriginal people from the Island Lake region, over 500 people have had to relocate to the city of Winnipeg as a result of the requirement for dialysis treatment. We find that to be unacceptable in this day and age. What the people in that area require is definitely improved health services.

We must begin addressing those long-standing issues. *( 16 :10 ) We therefore are committed to addressing three things. First of all the urban support services that are required, we need to begin addressing that, those people that have had to be relocated as a result of their circumstances in their home reserves and home communities, that have had to relocate to Winnipeg, have had to leave loved ones, have had to readjust to the city way of life. if you wil l. We have begun dealing with the issue of dialogue, at the very least, on the need for a regional health facil ity in the Isla nd Lake region.

That is needed badly. We also, in partnership with the federal government and the First Nations communities of the Is land Lake region. want to ensure that people have accessibility to dialysis treatment. This is one of the areas that we are wanting to be a partner in. My coll eague correctly points out, many times we have a call on the federal government saying that this is a responsibility.

In fact, many people living on reserves, and that is not to take away from the unique and special relationship that First Nations people have with the federal government based and ste mming from our treaties, but definitely they are Manitobans as well. As well as that they are Canadians. They too have to be provided. Also, partnerships have to be developed with them to ensure that they enjoy what services other Canadians enjoy. That includes health care as wel l.

It is not a good sight to go to any boarding care home in the City of Winnipeg or other areas where people have had to relocate from northern and isolated communities in order to receive dialysis treatment. Those are the three things our government is committed to with the federal government and with the First Nations communities.

Certainly we cannot do it all ourselves as a provincial government but those three things are: the need for a regional health care facil ity, to improve that; a dialysis treatment unit, which is immedia tely required so no more people will have to be relocated to urban areas such as Winnipeg; and, thirdly, the need for urban support services for those people who have had to move. We belie ve that the programming we are doing is innovative with respect to our friendship centres.

We will be asking them to deliver culturally appropriate programs, and I know I am going on here with my coll eague's questions, but certainly we have to avail ourselves to making available to Aboriginal people training opportunities and. as an example, employment placement, literacy training in some cases. We want to get away from the mentality of Aboriginal people having to rely on welfare as a way of life. We do not want to have to be faced with the situation of having the next generation having to rely on social services as a way of life.

I think that First Nations leaders have told us very clearly that they want to break away from that dependence and move into the area of providing for themselves, be self-sustaining and be able to create opportunities within their own communities, within their own boundaries so theref ore creating a more optimistic future for people that will require definitely some of these things.

415 4 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2000 So I apologize if I went on too long, but I think that I have tried to encompass some of the needs that exist in Aboriginal communities, not only in First Nations communities, but in fact the communities we represent and are the respon sibil ity of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairman, I would ju st like to follow up on some of the comments that the Minister made.

He was ref erencing housing and the la ck of water, and I was just wondering if the Minister would be able to comment as to negotiations, if any, with the fe deral government with respect to housing, or does he anticipate having some provincial initiatives with regard to housing in those communities as well as some of the infrastructure, such as water, perhaps sewer in some cases. I am just wondering if the Minister could comment on that. Mr. Robinson: I thank my col league for that because that is a very important issue.

I know, when we were at the Aboriginal ministers' meeting in Ottawa back in December, together with the staff of our department and myself raising housing as probably the No. 1 issue that is affecting Aboriginal people in Canada today and cert ainly in the Province-Of Manitoba. There have been some rough estimates that have been given to us over the years. In the communities that the MKO, as an example, represents, there is a shortage of over 4500 housing units that are req uired immediately. and that is not even counting the needs in southern Manitoba. That is simply to catch up with the immedia te need.

There are many communities that have two and three famili es living in one two-bedroom housing unit in many of the communities that we are responsible for, both NACC communities and First Nations communities, I was going to say. We have made this a priority, and if there is a way that we as a provincial government are able to pla y a partnership role with the national government, we will definitely explore that.

In fact, in my discussions with the fe deral India n Affairs minister, this definitely has been a priority issue, together with the Deputy Minister and the Director of the Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat as recent as last week. In Ottawa, both Mr. Bostrom and Mr. Boule tte had an opportunity to meet with the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Indian Affairs. and again this issue was raised. There are three priority areas that we believe we require, that being education and training and also the need for economic opportunities, and health ca

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-63
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 63.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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