Manitoba Hansard — 30 March 1982 (Sitting 24A, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-24a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Prese nting Petitions ... Read ing and Receiving Petitions PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Flin Flon. MR. JERRY T. STORIE (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, The Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolu tion; directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit agai n. I move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Daup hin that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I wish to bring the Hous e up to date on the matter of negot iations with the Man itoba Medical Association. As you kn ow Cabinet had designa ted a subcommittee to deal with the nonfees issues; the major one being binding arbitration.

In so doing it was the hope of this govern ment that we would be able to demonstrate our good faith to the medical profess ion and have them return their nego tiators to resume fee negotia tions with the Man itoba Health Services Commission. I relayed this information to the Man itoba Medical Ass ociation on March 25, 19 82 ask ing specifically if they would now have their negotiators meet with the MHS C today at 2:00 p.m. In response to this request, Dr. Pearson indicated to me that they wished to meet with a subcommittee of Cabinet before any com mitment could be made to return to the bargaining table.

The subcommittee of Cabinet met with the delega tion from the MMA this morning at which time I made the following statement, and I quote: "As an expres sion of good faith, gove rnment has appointed the subcommittee of Cabinet to review the various aspects of compulsory binding arbitration as proposed by the MMA. The subcommittee will act as a fact-finding committee and should not in any way be considered as a fee negotiating committee. "Compulsory binding arbitration is a complex issue which has major ramification. It is not an issue of which govern ment can make a hasty or uninf ormed decision.

It requires a great deal of study and discus sion with many gr oups and individuals as well as with other provincial governme nts. Dr. Pearson and the members of the subcommittee are prepared to meet 964 with you on a regular basis over the coming year to discuss your proposals. Obviously there will also have to be some meetings at the staff level to consider specifics and details. I sincerely hope the MMA will agree to separate the question of fee negotia tion and binding arbitration. The subcommittee of Cabinet will now be pleased to receive your official presenta tion regarding this complex issue." Dr.

Pearson of the MMA responde d by distributing a copy of the MMA Policy Objectives which are att ached as Appendix B. I don't intend to read them at the time. I have given a copy to the member of the Opp osition and I'll table a copy. There is not that much new in it. On further discussion with the MMA this morning

whereas we had originally committed ourselves to have a complete and thorough airing on the issue of binding arbitration finalized within one year, the MMA request that the same process be completed within a 30-day period. In an effort to meet the demands of the MMA with respect to the method of fee bargaining, the subcommittee of Cabinet made the following commitment: (1 ) To commence negotiations immdiately on the method of fee bargaining to be used in subsequent years;

(2) To set Novem ber 1, 19 82, as the deadline for completion of such negotiations, and;

(3) To resume fee negotiations between the MHS C and the MMA immediately, separ ate and apart, from the ongoing negotiations on the matter of binding arbitration. The MMA was asked to accept this proposal as an indication of the govern ment's desire to negotia te in good faith. At the same time, the MMA was asked to suspend its job action campaign while negotiat ions are taking place.

The MMA responded by giving gov ernme nt an ultimatum that negotiations with respect to the major issue of binding arbitration must be com pleted to the point that govern ment could either agree in principle or not ag ree in principle within the 30-day period. Mr. Speaker, I need not say that this ultimatum is unacceptable to this gove rnment and I would further say that it is irrespo nsible of the MMA to even request that such an important issue be finalized in a 30-day time frame.

We explaine d to the MMA that this time frame was not possible, be aring in mind the heavy work load of this House including the review of Estimates and leg islation that many of the subcommittee members will be involved in during the coming month. At the conclusion of the meeting I was advised by Mr. LaPlume of the MMA that the moratorium on the fee negotiations will continue until the matter of bind ing arbitration is resolved. I'm hoping, Mr.

Speaker, that on reflection, the executive of the Man itoba Med ical Associ ation will reconsider its position and not only instruct their negotia ting team to resume negoti ations with the MHS C but also to enter into seri ous discuss ion, dialogue and negotiat ions with the sub committee on this major issue of binding arbitration. Thank you.

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Opposi tion, I would like to thank the Honour able Minister for his statement and advise him that it's certainly accepted on this side of the Hous e with considerable concern and consi derable dismay. I think, Sir, that it would be prudent for the Opp osi tion to withhold any definitive assessment of the situation or defin itive comment at this point in time.

I think my colleag ues and I would like to think about the scenario as outlined by the Min ister in his state ment to the House just now. It certainly disappoint s us. I gather from the tone and tenor of the Minister's remarks that it disappoints the govern ment too. I would hope that a spirit of quiet consideration could be maintained during the next few days and that ill-contrived or ill-conceived rhetoric could be avoided on both sides and I think the Opp osition has a respon sibility in that respect too.

I can only say, Sir, I would hope that in the light of the failure to move towards conclusion of this impasse that the govern ment and the Min ister are taking every step necessary now to ensur e that the care of patients affected by the work-to -rule tactic is being reinforced everywhere where it's required.

It is that care, it is that concern that is paramount in this situation and while the MMA executive considers the implications of the Minister's state ment, I would hope the Commission and the Minister are reinforcing patient care every where that the work-to -rule tactic is in force and everywhere where it is scheduled to go into effect in the next few days. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Consu mer and Corporate Affairs. HON. EUGENE M. KOSTYRA (Seven Oaks): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to table the An nual Report of the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resour ces for the year ending March 31 , 19 81. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Fina nce. HON. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the 19 81 Report of the Workers Compensation Board. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... Int roduction of Bills. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Tur tle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Ener gy and Mines.

Can the Min ister confirm that International Mineral and Chemical Corporation has suspended its explo ration activities which could have led to the selection of a shaft site for a $640 million potash mine in Southwestern Man itoba within the next few months? 965 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Energy and Mines. HON. WILSON D. P. PARASIUK (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, on October 1, 19 81 Mr. Childers of I MC sent a telex to Mr. Mel Anderson of the govern ment indicat ing that they had provided a tentative Man itoba Miles tone

Schedule whereby they completely changed

Schedule A of the Memorandum of Agr eement between the Province of Man itoba and IMC dated May 15 , 19 81. In that

schedule the development plan was sup posed to be completed by October 30, 19 81 and a whole set of activities was supp osed to have been done in May of 19 81 , June of 19 81, June 30, 19 81 , a whole set of activity was supposed to have been com pleted - the govern ment put out a lot of ads saying a lot of work was happening in that respect - and then on October 1s t the IMC sent a telex saying that they would choose an engi neering firm on Novem ber 1s t, 19 81 even though they said they would be doing so on May 15 , 19 81 in the Memorandum of Agr eement.

They would complete an ana lysis of core from drill holes November 15 , 19 81: that they would complete an assess ment of ore body re locate shaft site Jan uary 1, 19 81: that they would complete engi neering studies by Aug ust 15 , 19 82; that they would start shaft pilot holes Novem ber 1, 19 82; that they would commence full-scale engi neering November 1, 19 82; that they will mobilize for shaft sinking May 1, 19 83, Mr. Speaker: that they would start surface construc tion May 1, 19 83; that they would complete a shaft by October 1, 19 86 and; that they would have a start up April 1, 19 87.

That's what the telex said even though the Min ister responsible on Thursday the 21 st of May, 19 81 said that actual core drilling would start by October 19 81 . So the delay took place when that govern ment was in office but they never informed anyone, Mr. Speaker, because an election was at hand. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that a shaft site would have been selected in, I believe, Aug ust of 19 82, and in view of the fact that there could have been a potash mine in production in 19 87, can the Minister confirm that it is as a result of his gov ernme nt allowing the Memorandum of Ag reement to expire and to in fact cease negotia tion with IMC, that Man itobans can no long er look forward to that happeni ng? MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I reject that charge completely. The Memorandum of Agr eement was extended by the previous government, Mr.

Speaker, in exchange for a press release that was put out by IMC on October 10 th, 19 81, just before an election, whereby they were saying that certain thing s were delayed, Mr. Speaker. What we had going at that time was a lot of politics leading up to an election cam paign. We had at the same time during the election campaign, very serious allegations brought forward to the negotia ting committee by advisers to the pre vious gove rn ment. Mr.

Speaker , very prominent advisers, very prominent people within the Cons erva tive party who, during the course of the act ual elec tion campaign, submitted documents indicating that

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 Manitoba's position had weakened drastically during the last two months preced ing an election and that as a result there were recommenda tions that everything be reconsider ed, that there were a number of factors that should be reconsidered, Mr. Speaker, and that the whole project should be slowed down to assure that asses sment took place because Man itoba's posi tion was indeed being weakened. We have those documents. We do not want to jeo pardize the negotiations, but, Mr. Speaker, they have those documents as well.

They have those documents as well, so for them to start gran dstandin g now about what existed, when they have documents from their own people indicating how seriously the negotiations had weakened, Mr. Speaker, -(Interjection)- is, and I can't use any of those parl iamentary terms, Mr. Speaker, but is some consider able straying from the truth as to what was taking place before an election campaign. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the deadline of the Memorandum of Un derstandin g had been extende d to December 1 Sth because of the intervening provincial election, can the Minister advise the Hous e what he did to have that deadline exte nded further in order that negotiat ions might continue? MR. PARASIUK: The material I had received which was exactly the same material that the previous gov ern ment had received but seemed to want to ignor e, Mr. Speaker, which indicated that Man itoba's position had indeed been weakened.

Our position with IMC is that we are letting the Memor andum of Un derstand ing pass, that we invited them to sit down with us and negotia te afresh, which indeed I believe we can do; I believe we can do that. We have to try and regain the ground, which was consid erable, that was lost by that gove rnment, a month, six weeks before the election when the y were desperate, when the y kne w they would end up being the losers that they are today. They were prepared to give up a lot. They would not listen to advice, Mr. Speaker. We are prepared to fight for the people of Man itoba, to negotia te a fair deal.

That is an open invitation to I MC, we have made that invitation, we expect them to respond; we kn ow that other compan ies are inter ested. We believe that that is a responsible way for govern ment to act, not to act as sell-out artists and not to have the former Premier acting as the host for the T.V. show, "Let's Make a Deal," Mr. Speaker. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, when the Honour able Min ister was a member of the Opposition he insisted that negotiations be conducted publicly.

In view of the fact that he now has some serious concerns and he doesn't wish to make those conc erns kno wn to the public or to this Leg islature - even though the Memo randum of Under standing is public - can the Min ister advise whether or not he has made those concerns kn own to IMC? MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, that was the basis of the meeting that took place between the Government of Man itoba nego tiating team and IMC and we said that we would like a new proposal tak ing into account the conc erns that were raised by the person who was 966 indeed the Chief Financial Officer of the Cons ervative Party during the last provincial election. So, Mr. Speaker, we were acting responsi bly in this negotiating process. We ask that the Opp osition show a bit of responsibility now, Mr. Speaker. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, will the Min ister confirm what my understan ding is of his ans wer and that was, that the negoti ating team which met with IMC, for the first and only time on the 24 February, communicated all of the concerns which the government had with respect to the Memorandum of Un derstanding, that they communicated all those concerns to IMC at that time? MR. PARASIUK: A very large number of concerns.

What was communicated at the time were the major concerns - there were a whole set of concerns that were sign ificant, one might consider them minor or less sign ificant than the three major one s - that were in fact communicated by the govern ment negotia ting team to IMC. That, in fact, was communicated because Man itoba's position had been weakened from the signing of that Memorandum of Intent to the election period. Man itoba's position had departed sign ificantly from the May 1 Sth Memorandum of Intent; Man itoba's position had been weakened signif icantly, Mr.

Speaker; that was going on in private, while in public the Cons ervatives were going around using public taxpayers money, trumpeting the fact that they had sign ed, virtually signed and sealed an agreement, Mr. Speaker; that's what was going on. ,We have felt that that was an irresponsible position tcr take. It's important for the province to sign a fair agree ment, Mr. Speaker, a fair deal, one that benefits Mani toba in the short run and in the long run, but one that isn't a sellout.

We are pursuing that position; we believe it is the proper one to pursue; we are pursuing it systematically, diligently; IMC has heard our con cerns; we have invited them to submit a proposal; we hope that they do so, Mr. Speaker, the ball is in their court. We will be continuing discussions with them in terms of further clarification. But, Mr. Speaker, the major concerns that were outstanding on November 17 th, on October 30th, still exist and they remain outstanding concerns between the Province of Man itoba and IMC. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the prospectus filed by the Minister of Financ e in New York on March 8th -a nd the main part of the supp le ment was written on Decem ber 23rd, which was eight days after the Memorandum of Und erstanding had been allowed to lapse by those members opposite -in view of the fact that the prospectus states that in May 19 81 the province entered into a Memorandum of Agr eement with Int erna tional Minerals and Chemical Corporation (Canada) Limited, IMC, relating to con struction of a $640 million potash mine and refinery in Western Man itoba, with a proposed ann ual produc tion capacity of 2 million tons of potash, and provid ing for join t owner ship of the fa cility by Manitoba Mineral Resou rces Limited, a Crown Corporation and IMC, can the Min ister advise the Hous e what he is doing by way of nego tiations to make that statement come true?

30 March, 1982 MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, we are proceeding in a respo nsible manner to make it come true so that we have a fair agreement between Manitoba and IMC, or any other proposed potash developer. The way in which the Cons ervatives could have made it come true, Mr. Speaker, would have been to sell out Man itoba. We reject that completely, Mr. Speaker. The people of Man itoba rejected that sell out approach completely on November 17 th.

We want development in this province but it has to be devel opment on fair terms, not the way the Conser vatives would do it, by backin g away from positions, from positions of weakne ss by adopting a sell-out approach by the Chairman there, who was in fact playing "Let's make a deal" with the resources of Man itoba - not only today's resources, Mr. Speaker - but the future resources of genera tions to come. That is too dangero us a game to play, Mr. Speaker. It is too important to play politics with, to tie it to four-year electoral terms as that government was doing.

We are prepared to be prudent; we are pre pared to negotia te in good faith no matter how much time it would take to negotia te a fair deal, a good deal, Mr. Speaker. That's why we are pursuing discussions with IMC; that's why we are pursuing discussions with other firms. We hope that they will conclude success fully without a sell-out. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister says that negotiations are ongoing, and in view of the fact that the First Min ister, in an inter view in the Man itoba Busine ss Magazine says that negotiations are ongoing with respect to this matter, will the Minister advise the House precisely what form the nego tiations with International Mineral Corpora tion are taking place? In what form are they taking place? MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, the IMC has indicated that they are going to take into consider ation the concerns that had been raised by us; they will review it internally and they will determine whether they will be submitting a renewed proposal to us. We are awaiting that, Mr. Speaker. We are in cont act with them on an ongoing basis. They require some clarification from us but we have asked them to submit a new proposal which takes into account the concerns and the chang es that had taken place, Mr. Speaker, between May 15 th and Novembr 17 th. So we are acting responsibly with IMC. We hope they will accept our invitation, Mr.

Speaker. We kn ow that there are other potash compan ies inter ested. We believe that we can negotiate a fair deal. We will not negoti ate a giveaway, Mr. Speaker. That was done by the Province of Man itoba with respect to the CFI agree ment; that was done by the Cons ervative Party, they never learned by their mistakes, they never learned, Mr. Speaker. The people of Man itoba told them that on November 17 th. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING LYON (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact, as we can attempt to discern the facts among the rather rabid rhetoric of the Minister of 967 Mines and Ener gy, in view of the fact that he is now confirming to the House and to the people of Mani toba that the plan ned potash mine, a joint ventur e between Manitoba Mineral Resou rces and Interna tional Miner als and Chemicals - the agreement for which expired on the 15 th of December of 19 81 when this government was in office will the Minister now confirm, Mr.

Speaker, that we are back to Square One and that the people of Man itoba have the same pros pect of having a potash mine in Man itoba as they had from 19 69 to 19 77, which was no prospect at all? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Energy and Mines. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, the world situation is such that there is a softness in the potash market and the Leader of the Oppo sition, who wants to make a deal at any pri ce, is quite willing to prostrate himself. That party there was quite willing to sell out our resources, to nego tiate from a position of weakness.

We believe that if the market is strong that the medium term for potash is strong. We believe we can negotiate a fair deal, Mr. Speaker, a deal that we can be proud of 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now. We are quite prepared to do that; we are proceed ing; we have an ongoing process under way with IMC. We have other discuss ions takin g place, Mr. Speaker, with other potash corporations. We hope that we can conclude a deal. A lot depends on the market situa tion because the inventory of potash has risen tre mendously over the last six months.

I MC's own finan cial position has weakened signi ficantly over the last six months, their shares have decreased in value, Mr. Speaker. They had some serious difficulties of a financial nature that they were trying to take account of in respect to their nego tiations that had caused your negotia ting team some grave concerns. We hope that the market will improve, that IMC's position would improve. We hope that we, indeed, can negotiate a deal in good faith, but I say again, it will be a fair deal, not a sellout. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, again asking my honour able friend this question, in view of the fact that there was a Memorandum of Agr eement in place between the Governmen t of Manitoba through Manit oba Min eral Resou rces and IMC, which agree ment, we found out the other day by questioning, has now been allowed to expire, can the Min ister of Financ e tell the Hous e and tell the people who have loaned $200 mil lon to the people of Manit oba on the basis of this paragraph that was read by my colleague, the Member for Turtle Mountain, can he tell the people of Mani toba whether he's going to issue an addendum, a correction, to point out that the statement that he made on the 8th of March, 19 82, repeating a state ment on the 23rd of December, 19 81 , is, in fact, not true?

MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I thought we'd gone over this ground to some extent last week. If we're going to start agai n we may as well, and I think maybe we should start back on May 21 st, 1981 , when the then Minister of Ener gy and Mines said on page 3,713 of Hans ard, "Mr. Speaker, the

schedule that was tabled

30 March, 1982 with the ann ouncement indicates that the site selec tion for the main shaft itself will probably not be final ized until about October, when the actual core drilling starts for the site on the actual site of the main shaft." Just a few minutes ago the Member for Turtle Moun tain was sugges ting that construc tion was to start in 19 82. That construc tion was to start in 19 81 , and I have a prospectus here from 19 81 prepared by people on the other side. This one is a very positive docu ment.

I'm sure the Leader of the Opp osition will jump forward and prepare an addendum that May, 19 81 , the province entered into a Memorandum of Ag reement with Internat ional Minerals and Chemical Corpora tion Canada Limited, IMC, relating to construction of a $640 million potash .mine and refinery in western Manitoba with a proposed an nual production capac ity of two million tons of potas h.

A defin itive partner ship agreement is expected to be signed shortly pro viding for 25 percent share ownersh ip, sub ject to increase to 40 percent of the facility by Manit oba Mineral Resou rces Limited, the Crown Corporation, with the balance held by IMC. Con struction is expected to commence late in 19 81, etc. Now, unfortunately, that didn't happen and there was no doubt at election time that it wou ld not happen; there was no doubt about that, and that's reg rettable. I don't blame the Opp osition for that.

If they were trying to set up a good deal with IMC, then I am grateful for that, and I am gr ateful that, before November 17 th, they didn't sell out the province by giving away the potash. For that, we are grateful on this side. We have continu ed the negotia tions. The fact of the matter is, Mr.

Speaker, that the agreement was ent ered into; the fact of the matter is that the document from which the Leader of the Opp osition reads, states very clearly that agree ment and others, are under review by the New Democratic party admin istration which had been elected on November 17 th, 19 81 , and the fact of the matter is, that with negotia tions continuing .. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. Does the Member for Turtle Mountain have a Point of Order? MR. RANSOM: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would draw to your attention the citation in Beauchesne which says that an swers to questions should be as brief as possi ble, should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, I sug gest to you, Sir, that the Minister was asked a direct question which lends itself to a direct answer. He is, in fact, provoking debate and making an unnecess arily lengthy an swer. MR. SPEAKER: Is the Minister speaking to the same Point of Order? MR. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Speaker, I was losing my train of though t on the ans wer but I do have some part of the answer left. MR.

SPEAKER: If not, I would share the hopes of the Honou rable Member for Turtle Mountain that a short question would not provoke a lengthy answer. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, there have been some delays with respect to finaliza- tion of that agreement.

Certainly there is no doubt, and the Leader of the Oppo sition, as a lawyer, should be one of the people most aware of that fact, that the so-ca lled Letter of Intent, that was so-cal led, as he is trying to make out, allowed to expire on December 1 Sth - there is no doubt that there was no legal com mitment on the part of either party to that document, and the fact of continuing nego tiations right now is the important issue. If we were not negotia ting right now, then, of course, they might have a point, but the fact is we are doing our best to negotia te a fair deal for Manitobans. 968 MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I might ask the same question in a way that, perhaps, might be intel ligible to the Honour able Minister of Finan ce so that he could grapple with it. His train of thought, which seems to be rather a singl e hand car, didn't quite gr asp what was asked.

Why, in the prospectus of Dece mber 23rd, after the Letter of Intent had been allowed to expire by this gove rn ment, and then on the 8th of March, 19 82, did the Government of Man itoba, through information provided by the Minister of Finan ce, say to the people who loaned $200 million to the people of Manitoba, based upon the integrity of this govern ment, and its statements, why did they say this: "In May, 19 81 , the province entered into a Mem orandum of Agr eement with International Minerals and Chemical Corporation Canada Limited, IMC, relating to cons truction of a $640 million potash mine and refinery in western Man itoba, with a proposed ann ual production capacity of two million tons of potash and providing for join t owner ship of the facil ity by Man itoba Mineral Resou rces Limited, a Crown Corporation, and IMC. (See gross investment)." Mr.

Speaker, in the light of the information given to the House since last Thursday and Friday by the Min ister of Mines and Ener gy, how can the Minister of Financ e face the investors and say that statement is true when it is patently on the record, false? MR. SCHROEDER: Clearly, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opp osition wasn't listening very closely when I ans wered him the fi rst time. That particular ag ree ment is as close, or closer, to implementation today with a shaft in the ground, as it was in Jun e of 19 81 when that group fi led another prospectus. It is ludi crous, Mr.

Speaker, it is absolutely ludicrous to sug gest that we have in any way been put in a position where there have been some changed legalities as of Dece mber 1 Sth or any other date. Because, if we have, then I would like the Leader of the Opposition to stand up and tell us what were the obligations of the Gov ern ment of Man itoba, in respect of that Letter of Agr eement, Letter of Intent on Dece mber 14 , 19 81, or let him stand up and tell us what were the obligations of IMC. -(l nterjection)- The Member for Virden is saying sho w us the agreement.

He was a member of the gove rnment that had that agreement since May of 19 81 at least. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please, does the Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain have a Point of Order. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, Sir, you will be aware of the citation which I read from Beauchesne just a few

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 moments ago which says: "answers should not lead to debate." The Minister of Financ e is standing in this House ask ing members on this side to sta nd and respond to questions that he is placing. Sur ely, Sir, that tends to lead to debate and he kno ws very well that members on this side of the House are not in a position to stand and respond to questions placed by the Treasury Bench, they are the gove rnment. MR. SPEAKER: I am sure the Honour able Minister is aware of that particular point and I hope he will not invite members of the opposition to enter into a debate in the future.

The Honour able Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I take those questions back, I don't believe that they could be answer ed by that side anyway. I will say, however, that I will certainly check with other members of Cabinet with respect to that particular agreement for the Member for Virden. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opp osition. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that is becoming very evident today, from questions that have been put in this House since mid-last week about the status of the Potash Ag reement and about the kn owledge of this Min ister of Finance of what his colleagues are actually doing, could the Min ister of Financ e tell the House and the people of Man itoba today when he became apprised of the fact that the Memorandum of Ag reement, which expired on the 15 th of Decem ber, 19 81, was going to be allowed to expire by his colleag ues, or was he ever told of that fact, Mr. Speaker? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Financ e. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as the Min ister of Mines and Ener gy has already stated, after Dece mber 15 , 19 81 there were co ntinu ed negotia tions. I have seen copies of correspond ence, both from IMC and from the department, talking about contin ued negotia tion; I have indicated that I do not believe that there were any legal obligations that ceased on December 15 th, either on the part of the Prov ince of Man itoba or on the part of Interna tional Mineral and Chemical Corpor ation; the negotiations are ongoing just as they were then.

If the people on the other side are saying that we should not talk to anyone else, only the people that they have talked to, I don't think that I would be prepared to accept that. I think that as trustees, for the people of the province, of our resources, I would not be prepared to put myself into that kind of a position. I'm glad that the Minister of Energy and Mines is not putting us in that position. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, would the Min ister of Financ e be good enough to advise the House and the people of Mani toba when he became appr ised of the fact that the Me morandum of Agr eement that is men tioned in the prospectus issued under his name on the 23rd of Dece mber, 19 81 and the 8th of March, 19 82, 969 issued as though it was still in force, when did he become aware of the fact that that agre ement had been allowed, by his government, to expire? The Minister of Fina nce won't answer that question, won't tell the people of Manitoba when he became aware of the piece of information that made his state ment false. MR.

SCHROEDER: I will go over it again for the benefit of the Leader of the Opposition. He has now asked that question four times or so, and if he wants to keep ask ing I will, agai n, explain to him that there were no chang es in the legal relationship, in my opin ion, between IMC and the Government of Man itoba between No vember 30th, 19 81 when we took office and this very day, March 30, 19 82. MR. LYON: Is the Min ister of Financ e saying to the House, Mr.

Speaker, that contrary to the information given to us by the Min ister of Mines and Energy over the past few days, that no Memoran dum of Ag ree ment now exists between the Go vernment of Mani toba or its agents and IMC, is he now trying to tell us that there is such an agreement in effect, and wha t forms the basis for his statement to this House that we are closer to having a potash mine today than we were when we had an agreement leading to one? MR. PARASUIK: Mr. Speaker, there was a Memoran dum of Ag reement dated May 15 th that had certain provisions in it that hadn't, in fact, been lived up to.

They had no t been lived up to, Mr. Speaker, there had been grave concerns by the previous govern ment that, in fact, IMC hadn't lived up to a number of items; there was concern by the previous govern ment that maybe, Mr. Speaker, IMC was playing Saskatchewan off against Man itoba. Mr. Craik had flown down to Chicago on July 28, 19 81 , Mr. Speaker, to plead with IMC to live up to aspects of this agree ment. There were, from May 15 th on, some nin e draft agreements that were the focus of attention between the Provincial Government and IMC; 6 drafted by government lawyers, Mr.

Speaker, or a firm employed by the gove rnmen t, Pitblado and Hoskins, Mr. Speaker, and then in Septe mber IMC's legal firm in Winnip eg, Thompson Dorfman and Sweatmam, took over the drafting of the draft ag ree ment which were the focus of discussion. The lead lawyer for those re-draftings, Mr. Speaker, was a one, Ga rry Brickman, who was a former special assistant to the Prem ier, Mr. Speaker, right before an election when you had a vulnerable governme nt, was now drafting agreements, weaken ing Man itoba's position on behalf of IMC; that was what was going on, Mr.

Speaker, when they were in office, and we were saved by the bell, saved by the election of November 17 . MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Oppos ition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, very simply and I think even the Min ister of Mines and Ener gy can grasp what I'm asking, when did he tell the Min ister of Finance that he had allowed the Memorandum of Agr eement between IMC and the Govern ment of Man itoba to expire on the 15 of Dece mber, 19 81, or did he ever tell him? Why

30 March, 1982 was this House not told until last week? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Ener gy and Mines. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, the extension to Dece mber 15 may or may not have been communi cated to anyone when the govern ment was in office. -(Int erjection)- That's true, Mr. Speaker. It certainly wasn't communicated, it certain ly may or may not have been communicated. What they're trying to intr oduce is a red herring. What it is, is whether in fact they have been negoti at ing something that was for the benefit of Manitoba and their own advisers told them that they'd weaken their position, Mr.

Speaker. That's the key issue that we're talking about, whether we're going to have a fair deal for Manitoba or not and they are concerned about whether - I don't remember whether he was informed or not informed, Mr. Speaker - but that is what they are trying to get at. They're not tryin g to get at whether in fact they had weakened their position sig nificantly, whether in fact there was an enforcible memorandum or not an enforcible memorandum because, Mr. Speaker, when IMC strayed from that memorandum, it didn't comply with his provisions, this govern ment did nothing. They did nothing because they couldn't.

It was a Memorandum of Un derstan ding, it had nothing in it, Mr. Speaker, that was hard and fast. Therefore since we kn ow that all of these things have been post pone d indefinitely, since we were told in this ag reement and the ag reement is pretty straightforward - that certain things would take place on May 15 , Jun e 15 , June 30, Septe mber 1, who was informed that those things weren't happening, Mr. Speaker? Even though this gove rnment was spending taxpayers' money, telling people that every thing was happening, Mr. Speaker, that they were sitting on a gold mine, that blue skies were ahead. Mr.

Speaker, no one was telling the truth that these things weren't being complied with, Mr. Speaker. You had that responsibility and you didn't do it. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a question to the First Minister.

In view of the fact that in the last four weeks under questioning in this House, it has become apparent to this House and to the people of Manitoba that Mani toba stands a much worse chance, if any chance at all, of getting an Al can sme lter and according to the most recent revelations of the Minister of Mines and Energy, that it's back to Square One in the neg otiations on a potash mine, can the First Minister tell the House how long he is going to tolerate that particular Minister as Minister of Mines and Energy before he breaks this province in terms of the kind of ind ustrial develop ment that we could have?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able the First Minister. Order, please. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, in response to the question from the Leader of the Op position as to occurrences within the last four weeks, I think what is quite clear and indeed has been clear for the last year that this party whether it was in opposition or whether it was in govern ment, is not prepared to sign an agreement that is unfair to the public of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, that has always been made clear. There is no revelation in that respect. Mr.

Speaker, we will on the other hand do all that is humanly possible to ensur e econo mic development in the Province of Manitoba that is fair and is reason able to Manitobans' benefit, not to the detriment of the overall benefit of Manitobans, but to the overall benefit. To this extent, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased with the work that has been undertaken by my Minister responsible for Ener gy and Mines. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Or der please. I regret the time for Or al Questions having expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Govern ment House Leader. Order please.

Does the Honour able Minister of Agr iculture have a point of order? HON. BILL URUSKI (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, could I have the MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. Order please. The Honour able Minister of Agr iculture. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, could I have the indul gence of the honourable members and have the pages distribute copies of the Interest Rate Program to representa tive caucus . . . ? 970 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Govern ment House Leader. HON. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, would you please call the adjourned debate on Bill No. 8, The Loan Act?

ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING - GOVERNMENT BILLS BILL NO. 8 - THE LOAN ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed Motion of the Hon ourable Minister of Finance, Bill No. 8, the adjourned debate stands in the name of the Honour able Member for Pembina who has 15 minutes remaining. MR. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

At the concl usion of the debate on this yesterday, I was mentioning to honourable members opposite that I had an opportunity to discuss the credit needs of young farmers in the Province of Mani toba with some bank managers in my constituency and the one thing that they pointed out very clearly, Mr. Speaker, to me was that the prime need of young farmers who are the backbone of our industry today and indeed its future for tomorrow, is the need for some long-term security for the purchase of their land base.

They further added that the availability of long -term mortgage money should be at a fixed rate so that they can kn ow their costs over a period of time and

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 there's no hesitation in continuing the present pro gram that MACC has in place of a five-year review of those interest rates and a five-year adjustment if necessar y on individual loans - but they emphasize the necessity for the availability of long-term credit.

Now, my question that we will be pressing the Min ister of Agriculture in the course of his Estimates - and I give him advance notice of it now is will the Min ister before he chan ges the role of MACC for which we are providing $26 million in this Bill, before he changes the role as we suspect he is going to, away from long-term land mortgages back into the state farm program , will the Min ister consul t as his gove rnment, his First Minister has promised to do, to cons ult with the affected Man itobans, cons ult with the people involved with policy change?

Will he con sult with the Credit Un ions, the chartered banks and other lending institutions that make credit available to the farm industry? Will he cons ult with them to find out what they believe is necessary for the long-term viability of our young farmers ente ring and remainin g in agriculture? Now, you kn ow, we've made this concern kn own already to the Minister of Agriculture that we don't want to see MACC back in its former role that it had from approximately 19 7 4-1 977 as a provider of a land base through the state owner ship Land Lease Pro gram.

We don't want a return to that progr am because that progr am, Mr. Speaker, as the Minister well kn ows allowed Manitoba Agric ultural Credit Corporation to be in direct competition with our young farmers in the province to buy a land base. MACC would go out and compete directly with our young farmers in buying that land and because of the availability of instant money through the govern ment Crown Corporation, they often could buy that land before a competing young farmer could arrange his credit through other sources. We want to make su re, Mr.

Speaker, that does n't happen again and we want to have this Minis ter ass ure us that before he makes that policy change would he consult with young farmers? Would he con sult with the credit unions? Would he cons ult with the chartered banks and other lendin g institutions to determine the wisdom and the validity of that change in policy that we fear is imminent. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to deal for a brief moment with the monies that are available in Bill No. 8 for Man itoba Mineral Resou rces. Now, I understand that is for the Trout Lake mining ventu re.

We have been promised by this government and we are afraid that it will be one of the few promis es that this government will keep with Man itobans; that being the creation of Man Oil as an arm of Manitoba Mineral Resou rces or as a free-sta nding corporation.

We are greatly con cerned that this may happen and our concern stems from the fact that on ce again - and I'll read that prom ise for all the back benchers over there that their leader made: "that with ManOil and Man itoba Hydro we can develop programs to gua rantee that no Man it obans lose their homes or farms due to high interest rates." In view of that promise we want to kn ow how many dollars this govern ment in this fiscal year is planning to provide for the creation of ManO il. We want to kn ow, Mr.

Speaker, because information tabled in the Manitoba Mineral Resou rces Limited ann ual report for 19 80-81 reveals some very interest- 971 ing facts about the past Schreyer administration involvement in the search for oil in the Province of Manitoba. The total royalties for oil as my colleague, the Member for Turtle Mountain pointed out to members opposite, for the fiscal year 19 80-81 were in the neigh bourhood of $60 million; total oil resources. So that if yqyr government conf iscated all of the oil resource that presen tly exists in the Province of Mani toba, you would provide $60 million.

That, as my col leag ue, the MLA for Fort Ga rry has identified, is the money that would be required on a one-year basis to provide interest rate relief to the homeowners. So you confis cate all of the oil revenue and you help out only one sect or of the ec onomy, tha t bei ng the homeowners. So, what we see, Mr. Speaker, is the ans wer as promised and guaranteed by the now First Min ister, that Man Oil will provide the revenues to provide inter est rate protection from farmers and homeowners in the province. Well, we see they're going to provide some $20 million to Man Oil .

Well, on the basis of their experience during the glorious Schreyer years of administration of the N.D. Party, they spent some $900,000 on oil exploration in the province. They have to their credit better than fifty dry holes. That's why we called their leader "dry hole Howard" during the elec tion campaign because the record shows that they spent $900,000 and had the commenda ble success or fifty-plus dry holes. They did strike some oil, Mr. Speaker, and the revenues in 19 80-81 were some $1 ,403 for that $900,000 investment.

Now, that means that for spending $20 million they are going to be able to get that revenue up based on past experience to some $25, 000 per year. How many homeowners and farmers are going to receive that guaranteed promise; that they will not lose thei r farms or their homes from $25, 000 worth of income from a $20 million ManOil drilling program in he Province of Manitoba. Twenty five thousand dollars will be the revenue; $20 million will be the expendit ure if past experience is true and no doubt, Mr. Speaker, it will be because we do not believe that any adherent to the N.D.

Party philosophy kn ows how to find oil any better today in the Province of Man itoba than they did during the Schreyer years. So, Mr. Speaker, we've got considerable concerns about ManOi l providing the revenues to provide interest rate relief for homeowners and farmers in the Province of Man itoba as guaranteed by the First Min ister. To back up our concern, Mr. Speaker, Manit oba Hydro was also mentione d as being the revenue pro vider; to provide that kind of revenue to support homeowner s and farmers against high interest rates.

Well, what have we seen so far from the Min ister of Energy and Mines who has a great deal of trou ble answ ering questions on how he has now blown the potash deal and how he has blown the Al can deal and how he will blow the power grid deal. Well, so far what we definitely kn ow from that Min ister who is respon sible for Man itoba Hydro is that he has lost a sale of surplus power to On tario. That's going to decrease the revenue s of Man itoba Hydr o so I find that his First Min ister is going to have some difficulty carrying out that election promise: that guarantee that they made.

We kn ow that he is in the process of blowing the power grid and tha t was given to us by none other than the Chairman of Saskatchewan Power Corpora-

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 tion who said that when the previous gove rnment. the Cons ervative administration was in power in Mani toba there was a 75 percent chance tha t the grid would proceed and now under this new gove rnmen t. this N.D. Party governm ent; they are down to 40 per cent chance of the power grid ever proceeding. So. the power grid isn't going to provide revenues to Manitoba Hydro to carry out this guaranteed promise by the First Minister that no Manitoban will lose their farm or their home because of high interest rates. Mr.

Speaker. this govern ment is falling fast on the rocks of broken promises. When are they going to deliver one promise to Man itobans other than the creation of ManOil ? Well, we do kn ow that they are contemplat ing increasing the revenues of Man itoba Hydr o by one move and one move only. It doesn't involve the sale of surplus power to On tario. No. the Min ister of Energy and Mines. the Member for Transcona has blown that; that's not available.

We now kn ow that the Western Power Gr id which would have provided sig nificant revenues to Man itoba Hydro is now down to a 40 percent chance of success. so we can safely say that one is probably not going to proceed. so where are the revenues to Man itoba Hydro going to come from to guarantee this promise made by the First Minister? It's going to come from their removal of the Hydr o rate freeze and they're going to bleed every single Man itoban with higher power rates to financ e this phony election promise. Mr.

Speaker. this election promise that they can not deliver under any other cir cumstances other than bleeding individual Man ito bans who are forced to buy electricity from Manitoba Hydro. They are going to remove the rate freeze to gener ate the revenues to carry out their election promises. That's not what Manit obans voted for in November of 19 81. They didn't vote for that, Mr. Speaker. but that is what we are going to get in the delivery of foolhardy promises by the First Min ister and his group of candi dates in the N.D.

Party in the last election; and Man it obans. one by one. as they apply for interest rate relief to save their farms and are turned down by the Min is ter of Agricu lture; and homeowner s who, one by one . want to save their homes from loss because of high interest rates are turned down one by one by the Minister of Natu ral Resou rces; and businesses one by one who are turned down from interest rate release by the Minister of Econ omic Development and Tourism; they, as they are turned down. those businessmen, those home-owners and those farmers will realize that the First Minister. the MLA for Sel kirk and the Leader of the Opp osition in the last election cam paign, gravely misled them in the election campaign with promises that he has no way of delivering other than to bleed Manitobans with the removal of the Hydro rate freeze and to charge them more for Mani toba Hydr o for the electricity that they will consume. and one by one th ose deceived. disillusioned. disen chanted Man itobans who may have voted for that group to form the next gove rnment will turn their backs on the ND Party, turn their backs on the social ist philosoph ies that they are espousing right now. and one by one when the promises are being broken to them by that gove rn ment. will turn to the only alternative for sane. sensi ble good govern ment in 972 Man itoba, that being the Progressive Conservative Party of Man itoba.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Well, Mr. Speaker. I had not inten ded to speak. I kno w that has been said before in this Chamber, but I have to rise. I rise as the Member for Lakeside, the potential site, hoped for site of a major wealth producing, job creating industrial activity, namely, the Alcan proposa l. and I see that now obviously sliding down the same tube that the potash project that we discussed in the quest ion period is heading for, Mr.

Speaker. and certainly on behalf of my Lakes ide constituent s and the vast majo rity of people. despite what the Honour able Member for lnkster may want to say or to what extent he wants to create difficulties at Balmoral. the vast majority of lnterlaker s who have traditionally over the years have had to go elsewhere to look for jobs either to Northern Man itoba or to Alberta or to On tario or somewher e, but they had an opportun ity for produc tive jobs being created in that part of the Interlake which needs jobs so desperately.

The land owners. the farmers had an opportunity of seeing their taxa tion rates on their property being kept at reasonable limits and reasonable levels for the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years, Mr. Speaker, because of the kind of contribu tion that a major industrial complex like that provides to the municipalities. Our school division s, Mr. Speaker, in the Interlake would have benefited from that involvement; our hos pitals, but it becomes increasingly obvious to all of us that this government here is prepared to throw that all away.

The Honour able Minister of Finan ce, the Hon ourable Minister of Energy and Mines. they can maybe play the little game they played today at ques tion period and give half-hour little speeches to shorten the succinct questions. and they may even fudge or fool some of us in this Chamber for a little while about the state of preparedness and the true intentions of both the companies in question and the government of that day as to such things as potash development and Alcan development; but I want to tell you something. no body is fooling the constitu ents, the residents of McAuley and Virden, the Hon ourable Member for Birtle-Russell about these inten tions of IMC prior to the change in govern ment.

Mr. Speaker. It is not just a little matter of how you interpret ag reements that were allowed to lapse or not pursued or negotiations and discussions not being pursued because. Mr. Speaker. there are far too many people that are involved. appreciating the fact that upwards - I don't kn ow the exact figure. but it could well be within the range of $2 million were spent by a private company in the hopes of pursuing an agreement.

Sure they were going to nail the hardest agreement they could from their point of view and this govern ment was prepared to nail the hardest agreement that we could on behalf of the people of Man itoba. We can fudge around and we can talk about whether or not that agreement was a good agreement or fair agree ment as this government is now taking but what you canno t hide from the people is that was a serious

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 effort. Those monies were spent; those holes were drilled in that McAuley-Virden area; the ore body was located, something which by the way didn't take place during eight years of previous NOP administration. That potash lay there - I've always said, I've said it before the House - Conser vatives didn't put that potash in the ground, the NOP didn't put that potash in the gr ound, the good Lord put it there a long time ago or the Ice Age if you happen to be an atheist.

If you happen to be an atheist and you don't want to believe in the good Lord, fine, then, and let's blame it on the last Ice Age and whatever geological move ments took place at that particular time. But, Mr. Speaker, what the residents of Virden-McAu ley kno w is that there was a deadly serious effort being made upwards as I say to the expense of some $2 million to locate that ore body.

People were employed; staff assign ments were being hired in the Brandon area and in the Virden area and the project was on go, and no amount of fancy talk of this Chamber is going to alter that impression that is left in western Man itoba. The impress ion that, of course, is being left right now is that this govern ment who has a doctrinal hang up about dealing with compan ies, that worries more about spen ding taxpayers' money in drilling dry holes around this country and loo king for some way to get into that high-risk oil business that they haven't got time to take these discussions seriously.

They've met once, Mr. Speaker, since they've come into office with the principals of the potash developing group. Mr. Speaker, I say the same for the Alcan group, of course, in the Interlake . Agai n, Mr. Speaker, they can make all the statements they like about the fact that the agreement wasn't sign ed, the i's weren't dotted, the t's weren't crossed; in fact, I've made that state ment. They now say that they were saved by the bell; they were saved by the Novem ber 17 th election. Well, that's fine and dandy, Mr.

Speaker, but you're not going to convi nce my constitue nts in the area of Bal moral, where land options have been taken up; where monies have been paid; where, again, a private com pany is in the process of expen ding upwards to $4 million- $5 million in a serious feasibility study to locate a major industrial plant in the heart of the Inter lake where goodne ss kno ws the jobs are being worthwhile. So, Mr.

Speaker, I simply want to put it on record that a year from now, two years from now and three years from now, when election time starts coming around again, it will not simply be a little game of words that we can play in this House as to whether or not a Memorandum of Agr eement, a Letter of Intent really sign ified government's intention or not, or whether the conditions changed to the extent that this gove rnment now saw good reason to back away from it, Mr. Speaker, that's taken out of our hands.

I must tell the honourable members that, that's not going to be decided by politicians or by the 57 members in this Chamber. The residents in Balmoral kn ew and are aware, and are aware today, of the seriousness of Alcan in their desire to locate a major job-producing industrial plant in this province. Mr. Speaker, this government has objected to the amount of advertis ing that company has undertaken to underline that particular point. So, Mr.

Speaker, let me make it very clear, on that 973 particular score, this government has left itself wide open, in an inexplainable arrogant manner in which they are shrugging off the possi bility of $2 billion worth of construction activity in this province; several thousands of jobs, indeed, that figures higher 3,000-4,000 jobs when you take in the construction acitivity in the first few years. Mr.

Speaker, yesterday in the House, the Minister of Consu mer Affairs - and we all applauded with some under standable pride - annou nced the fact that Air Canada was going to build a $30 million computer centre in the Core area of the City of Winnip eg and we applauded that move. But, let's understand, and the headlines of the Win nipeg Free Press bear that out, and I think the Minis ter's own state ment bore that out, is that's going to create a hundred jobs, a hundred jobs. Mr.

Speaker, I don't say that in any dispar aging way but let's also remember that they are all public service jobs, not new or wealth-pr oducing jobs in terms of productivity in this country, but we're talking about a hundred jobs in a Crown Corporation. That's fine and dandy, we're not dispar aging it, but, Mr. Speaker, if that merited a Ministerial Statement, and one which is supported in this Chamber, why this cavalier attitude about 600, 700, 800, 1, 000 jobs in this province? Why is there no concern being expressed about creation of those jobs and why is this group letting those opportuni ties slip by, Mr.

Speaker? Mr. Speaker, we're dealing with Capital Supply. It's not our intention to delay the passage of Capital Supply because we do hope that worthwhile public institutions like the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation requires the Capital that's included in the Capital Supply Bill that we're now dealing with - you kn ow, an institution, by the way, which I will possibly have to remind all members was brought into being by a Conservative administration - has done more for the farmers in this province than ManOil will do for any body in this province.

The best that you an say about the possibilities of ManOil is that, like with the $40 million expende d on Saunders, you might end up with some greasy, oil-stained.coveralls with the inscription ManOil, just like we still have a whole raft of stewar dess' uniforms and attendent uniforms for Saunders Air craft - very pretty in blue and gold but that are really not adding to the productive well-being - (Interjection)- Skywest I believe it was. Skywest it was, I think we even have a couple of cartons of matches still left, Mr. Speaker, of Skywest Enter prises.

But, that's the extent that we can really seriously count on in terms of ManOil. So, Mr. Speaker, I take the advantage of spe aking on Capital Supply to voice my very sincere regret that an opportu nity for providing and for correcting a chronic job problem in the Interlake is obviously, under the handlin g of this gove rnment, going to be dealt a hand that will see that it will never come to fruition. I can say, Mr. Speaker, that a very large number of my constitue nts are going to be extremely disappoint ed.

Many of them, without any big effort on the part of any organ ized group, sig ned petitions, just in the last few weeks, throughout the communities in and around Balmoral pleading with this government to get off it's cavalier way of dealing with Alcan and get on with the job of signing an agree ment. Mr. Speaker, the efforts that the Alcan group have put in,

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 in the Interlake, in their monthly meetings with peo ple, they have not shied back from meeting with the people at the grassroots level. They have had informa tional meetings set up in the various community halls in Bal moral, in Stonewall, in Teuton, and, Mr. Speaker. when none of that turns out to be true they will have no other recourse but to fault this govern ment for having blown what my leader, quite rightfully called during the election campaign, an opportunity that doesn't very often present itself to a province like Manitoba.

The 19 80's indeed could have been, despite the difficulties that we face in Canada as a whole, could have been a very exciting decade of development in this province. It could have been well spread out to benefit all of the province.

In Western Man itoba a $600 million - $700 million potash development; in the north resumption of the multibillion dollar develop ment of the Nelson River; and in the Interlake, where jobs are badly needed, another 600 - 700, indeed by that time it would have been a billion dollar aluminum plant production centre that could have all dovetailed together in the '80s, that could have kept Man itobans work ing, could have made it possi ble for us to supply those services that all of us want to supply in terms of our schools, in terms of our hosp itals, in terms of our education program, in terms of our desire to help our sen ior citizens, and do all of that with reasonable taxation levels.

We would not have been looking at increases in the sales tax, we would not have been looking at rates of increase that approach confisca tion in terms of property taxes as we are now looking. All of this could have been possible had we moved toge ther and took advantage of those unique circum stances that the resources of Manitoba provided, not the Conservative Party, but at least, Mr. Speaker, all we provided is the will to make sure that would happen.

I remind the honourable members whether it was the potash or whether it was the availability of surplus hydro power that is the integral part of the aluminum plant, it was all there during the eight years of the previous NDP administration. There was no glimmer, there was no sign of them pursuing these kind of worthwhile developments. They were too busy trying to prove to somebody they could manufacture Chi nese food and they threw our taxpayers' money into Chinese food manufacturing plan ts.

Or they were too busy buying boats and airplane s, we had the Red Navy and we had the Red Air Force or they were too busy trying to prove to De Havi lland or Dougla s or Boeing that they could build airplanes better than anybody else. And so we took $40 million of Man itoba taxpayers' money and tried to build airplanes. That's what you did during your eight years in terms of industrial development.

We kn ew that had to change and we, at least, steered Manitobans in the right direc tion that used our resources in the most appropriate way for Man itobans first and for all Canada to benefit in terms of the economic boost that would have meant. Mr. Speaker, it's becoming evident that those golden opportun ities, those rare oppor tunit ies are literally being frittered away by this N.D. administration. Mr. Speaker, I'm satisfied that the record two or three years hence will cause them no end of difficulty when they have to face the people on account of that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Minnedosa.

MR. DAVID R. BLAKE (Minnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I likewise hadn't intended to participate in this debate at this time, Mr. Speaker, but so many interesting things have developed lately that I feel that I should comment on one or two of the items in the Capital Supply Authority before it moves on. Rep res enting an area, Mr. Speaker, in western Man itoba, I won't dwell too much on what has been part of the debate so far today and that is the proposed potash mine in western Manitoba, but, Mr.

Speaker, that is of great importance to that particular area of Man itoba and there was great expectations there that negotia tions would contin ue, whatever govern ment was in power, to bring that to a successful conclusion because the chance of the number of jobs that plant would create in that area, those chances just don't come along every year. And it's extremely disappoint ing to the people out there who now find that the nego tiations are on hold in sp ite of what the members opposite might say. It's starting to look bleaker and bleaker every day, the possibilities of that mine becoming a reality.

It's only last week that the Member for Virden and I had a delegation into the Minister's office petiti oning him and pleading for an extension of Highw ay 355, which goes into that particular area and is a necessary expense to allow the people to not only have a route to employement but a further route west for trade and whatnot into our sister Province of Saskatchewa n.

Not that we want to see them go that far but it's a convenienc e for them in many cases to go to Regina for implement parts which the govern ment has sort of encouraged to move out there, the former NDP govern ment, I should say in case that's taken up by members across the way, as being our govern ment. 974 So, Mr. Chairman, we are extremely disappointed that the present government is allowing negotiations to fall into a state of slack or whatever term you might want to use.

The momentum has been lost, the com pany naturally is going to lose interest in coming in to do business with a group with a philosophy that they have over here that the governme nt has to completely control everything. There is a good deal has been struck with a good interest in that proposed mine for the people of Man itoba and for the taxpayers and the jobs that would create for the young people who are having to leave that area, Mr. Speaker, is of extreme and acute importance to that area, because we just don't have that many opportunities in that part of our province.

But coming closer to home, the other one that alarms me, Mr. Speaker, is the loss of the potash development that was prog ressing so well with site locations and the protestations of environme ntal gr oups certainly were necessary, I think one of the largest and best orchestrated public forums for the examination of the environ mental impact of that par ticular plant was being undertaken by that company, one of the most responsi ble, I think probably, in mod ern times, when a plant of that magnitude is consider ing locating in our midst.

That particular plant would provide a great number of jobs that are of a fairly high

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 technical nature and are fairly high paying jobs and I'm just shocked that the members from that particu lar area are not up on their hind legs in this House demanding that this govern ment get on with those negotiations and bring that plant into fruition because that is larger than the potash development. There are 1, 000 jobs at stake, Mr. Chairman, and no one over here seems to be a bit concerned about maintainin g those jobs in this particular area.

We all kn ow that on that development, of course, hinges the power and it was appearing every day that the Western Grid or the Western Inter-Tie that has been referred is slipping further and further from the grasp of this gove rnment. Their sisters in Saskatche wan if they talk about ripping somebody off or work ing a deal or sel ling out to Man itoba, if we're ever going to get sold out. Mr. Speaker, we're going to get sold out to the sister comrades in the other province -(I nterject ion)- and I have never, never really been able to establish the difference between a brother and a sister in comrades, Mr.

Speaker, but we kn ow that those arrangem ents are slipping away. The deal is further from completion now than it was when we left office in November. Those jobs, Mr. Speaker, with the fulfillment of those negotia tions that were going so well would mean about 5,000 jobs in Manit oba and that would be such a boon to this province, Mr. Speaker, at a time now when we're consideri ng, in the Capital Authority requirement s, some $2,800,000 for the Trout Lake ventur e. That is part of our initial investment in that company which gives us an interest in it and, Mr.

Speaker, that was well on the way to being developed under the former Conservative gove rn ment. We don't kn ow whether it's going to be developed now or not because there's great threats of very, very heavy layoffs in that particular area, Mr. Speaker. When I see what's happen ing up there I just get a little leary whether we should be blowing another two or three million dollars into an area, with what we hear from the opposite side, about the soft mineral markets, the soft potash markets, everything's soft over there, Mr. Speaker.

They've got to get down to some hard bargaining with these people and bring some of these deals home. We can't let them slip away from us now, and you start pouring another 3 million down into Trout Lake when there's going to be 2,650 men and women laid off at Hudson Bay Minin g and Smelting Company in Flin Flon, it begins to give me some concern, Mr. Speaker. Hopefully it's only going to be five weeks. You see, Mr. Speaker, we can build a dynam ic future in Man itoba, we can turn around the harsh economic circumstances of the past four years. We can tap our resources of energy wisely.

You can't tap your energy resources wisely, you can't tap them wisely until you've got a sale. We can provide interest rate relief and all that stuff, and we'll go into that in a minute, but, Mr. Speaker, I want to quote from this great document that you're going to hear a lot more of in the Sess ions to come.

"The Man itoba No Develop ment Party believes working people deserve job secu rity in a workplace that poses no threat to their health and safety." We ag ree with "no threat to their health and safety." Man itoba No Devel opment Party would provide security from layoffs, up to 12 months notice of compensation to employees would be required in 975 the event of shut-downs or layoffs involving 50 people or more. I haven't heard a word from the Member for Flin Flon about this massive layoff that we're being faced with up nor th. It's a shut-down, sure.

What about all the families that have taken thei r holidays already, before Ju ne? What steps are you taking to provide them with Unem ployment Insurance? What nego tiations have you had with that company so far? We haven't heard a thing. We didn't make that prom ise; you made it. We understand that layoffs are pos sible and probable in great developments like that. Mr. Speaker, Old Landside from Thompson, there, is throwing a Conservative election brochure in his hand which was truthful. He can't find any lies in that one. You won't find any lies in that, but I'll tell you, Mr.

Speaker, we're going to read back some of the speeches that were made on that side a couple of years ago when there was a little layoff up in his area, up in his part of the country. We're going to be reading those speeches back. I'm sorry that I don't have one with me right now. As if the whole problem was ours. Now you say it's a no rmal thing. Mr. Speaker, we didn't make a promise that there would be no layoffs, that there would be job security.

We said that we will do what we can so that layoff is going to be short lived, but we were railed and railed from this side of the House by the members opposite who were over here, and will be back over here agai n in three short years. Those speeches will be read back. Mr. Speaker, what happens when this govern ment comes to power? What happens when this govern ment gets in power? There's a big layoff up North.

They find some nice little guy up there to say, well, layoffs are inevitable, they happen, we're going to get by, and it's Christmas, and they show everybody unwrapping their Christ mas parcels and everything's lovely. Not when it happens under a Conservative regime, Mr. Speaker, and we haven' t promised the wild, wild, job security and great intervention in the employee-employer relationsh ip that this government has promised, where we will guar antee job security, Mr. Speaker. We haven't promised anything like that, and we're con cerned, Mr.

Speaker, we're concerned with those layoffs because they affect a great number of people. They affect a great number of families and it's a terri ble thing to see at a time like this when our economy is in such dire cimcumstances. I mean, the Prime Min ister the other night, appar ently someone said he mis-spoke himself when he talked about a depression. But, Mr. Speaker, I think that he was speaking the truth; I think we are in a depression now.

When you get a great big recess ion, you've got a depressi on, and I think we're into that now and in spite of our modern-day methods of trying to prop up the econ omy and trying to hold thing s in order and our social programs that are gradually swamping us, to provide assistance to those unfortu nates that are laid off in these times. But, Mr.

Speaker, the country is in bad problems, and every weekend when I go home, we happen to be on the junc tion of a couple of fairly important highway arteries in this country, we have young men coming through those areas with vehicles. some of them are not modern vintage, from Newf oundland, from eastern provinces, heading for Alberta, some may even stop in Saska t chewan, looking for jobs. They don't have a job to go

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 to, they're look ing for jobs out there, and tha t's a serious thing, Mr. Speaker. because there are some of us in this House that can remember, although we were very small, the Member for Wolseley wouldn't remember because he wasn't around thirty years ago, but, these times, Mr. Speaker, when the young men of this country were riding the rails or riding the rods, as they referred to it, if it wasn't so damn cold right now they'd be doing it now. They've got heated vans now, even though they may not be very up to date, but they are going across this country looking for work, Mr.

Speaker, and there's no work there. They're going out to Alberta and they're not finding jobs because the market is pretty saturated out there, as you kn ow. That is because ano ther great project has been let go down the tube by govern ment inaction and rivalry between factions in governments, and that's very, very serious when it leads to the type of things that I just mentioned, Mr. Speaker, because it does not bode well for this country. This econ omy in Man itoba is going to get worse under this govern ment. There is no doubt in my mind about it, Mr. Speaker.

That is one of the reasons that I'm in politics, that hopefully we can slow them down to the deg ree where they won't completely ruin us. The things were just starting to move; the projects were coming on stream; -(lnt erjection)- that's right, Mr. Speaker, given the opportunity to turn the econ omy around and create the climate that was needed in the private sector, and now what do we see, Mr. Speaker? We're being asked to provide $9 million, that's $9 apiece for Man itobans, Mr. Speaker not quite - because there's $1 ,026, 000 I hear today. We're being asked to provide this kind of interest rate relief.

Well, I certainly hope that there are going to be some qualify because the small businessman today, the farmer and the home owner are the one s that are in real trouble and are going to need it. But these applications, Mr. Speaker, I just wonder who is going to sit in judgment when the small busi ness man fills this in? Who is going to sit in judg ment and decide whether he has put up all of the additional resources that are at his disposal? Does he have to cash in his Regis tered Retirement plans and throw that into the business?

Does he have to mortgage his home to the absolute hilt and thr ow that into the business? Does he sell the second little car that his wife goes shopping in? The Minister of Ec onomic Development and Tourism is say ing no, no, no. Well, by God, Mr. Speaker, I think I might apply. I've got a small business. It's in trouble as most of them are today. I might just apply.

I don't kn ow whether I would get ruled out as being a member of this Legislature or not, but my wife's president of the company, so maybe under that gu ise I could qualify and gain some assistance, but I just wouldn't want to risk it with this govern ment, Mr. Speaker, because I think they might end up owning my business. They seem to want to own everything else in the province and I just wouldn't want to take this cha nce. I don't doubt, Mr. Speaker, that farmers are in trou ble.

My God, I see them every weekend when I go home and there's great problems on the farm and the Interest Rate Relief Program, while it may keep the odd one from going down the drain, it's not going to do that much. I hope that when all of the appl ications 976 are in that we are going to have a meaningful report, and then agai n, Mr. Speaker, who is going to go out to that farm and decide?

I kn ow, he said, I hereby apply for benefits under the Man itoba Interest Relief Rate Program and declare that the statements and infor mation provided in this application are to the best of my kn owledge true and accurate and that no relevant information has been withheld, and we authorize and give our consent to the securing of any information records or documents from any source as may be deemed necessar y in conj unction with this applica tion. Mr. Speaker, we haven't heard who the great posse is that's going to be formed to go out and check all of these applications, go and inspect that farm.

It'll be another great committee of hangers-on and party faithfuls probably that'll be appointed an ad hoe committee to come to the rescue and to make deci sions as to who is going to qualify. -(I nterjec tion)- I think they've got other plans for our friend Harry. Mr. Speaker, we kno w that the gove rnment has to have money to enact these programs and we're not going to hold up Capital Authority unduly, but I didn't want to let this particular item pass without some mention, and I'm amazed that the Member for Flin Flon hasn't been up speaking on the amount of money that's going to be put into Trout Lake.

I thought he would be expounding the benefits to his area and decrying the layoffs in that plant up there, but no, we haven't heard anything about it, Mr. Speaker. The Supply Bill is when you have wide-rangin g debate.

You can speak on anything under that, and I just didn't want to let these expenditures go by with out saying a word of how disappoi nted I, as a member from western Man itoba, am that nego tiations with International Minerals and Chemicals have been allowed to come to a standstill and it would appear from what we heard today that there is very, very faint hope now of that potash mine being developed; and I would urge this govern ment to get their act together and try and get this province moving again because without those massive developments we aren't going to see the power development because we kn ow what a disaster it was previously when they produced 30 or 40 percent more power than we had need for and it cost the taxpayers of this province dearly, and we kn ow what it's going to cost them if this Hydro freeze is lifted, Mr.

Speaker. There are people out in rural Man itoba shaking in their boots right now because this govern ment is reviewing that progr am and they lift that Hydro freeze at their peril, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr. Speaker, thank you for your indulgence. I wanted to put those remarks on the record before we let Capital Authority requirements go by and I kn ow that there may be one or two other members on this side of the Hous e that want to make a contribution, so with those few words I will pass debate on to whoever is waiting. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Rhineland. MR.

ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As already has been mentioned many times, this present govern ment has made a lot of promises during the election campaign and is plan ning on spen ding a lot of money during the period of time that

30 March, 1982 they will be gove rn ment. the next four years. They have plan ned to spend more money in the resource field. They plan to go into partnership with labour and business. They will create a Crown corporation involved in exploration and development of petro leum resources in Man itoba.

They will provide fund ing for exploration and discovery in mineral resour ces, and all of the things that I have mentioned so far have been looked after quite adequately by the private sector and I don't really see where this govern ment is going to find any of the money required to go into these projects because they are going to have thei r hands full just with ordinary running of projects within the province.

They have said that they will review only the mas sive programs of capital investment that the previous govern ment was involved with and would provide a larger tax base in Manitoba and we need that larger tax base. We need it badly. Our teachers want the same wages that the teachers get in Saskatchewan; so do our doctors. our civil servants, and unless we're going to get a larger tax base and get it soon. we are going to find ourselves in deep trouble. This gove rnmen t.

I am sure. is not going to see any of these big projects, the so-called mega projects, come to pass because they have no idea of how to put them together. This govern ment has also promised spe ndin g millions of more dollars in the Department of Health and we all know that we need to spend more money in health and mental health progr ams and personal care homes. Every town tha t you go to is in need of more health facilities. We know that we need more money spent on roads. espe cially our PR roads. They're in atrocious condition. So more money needs to be spent in that area.

More money needs to be spent in every area, and it is going to be very difficult for this gove rn ment to meet the commitments that they made during the election campaign. The agricultural community was hit very hard. They were hit espec ially hard by the high interest rates and the increased costs in production. The revenue that should go into the govern ment coffers because of the large crop that we had last year, are going towards paying high interest rates on mortgages and on work ing capital. You're not going to see the agricultural community contributing all that much towards the revenues of the province.

The business community is caught in the same squeeze. Reve nues will not be forthcoming. Un em ployment is going to be on the increase and the infla tion rate will continue to rise because more and more people will be looked after by the state.

I would say that because the agricultural commun ity is in the dire straits that it is in at the present time - I've been ta lking to a number of bankers throughout the province and they say that the work ing capital now and in most areas is larger than what it was last spr ing and the farmers have not even started making their purchases for th is coming crop -s o the agricul tural community certainly is not going to do any buy ing beyond whatever it requires to put in their crops. This is going to be extremely hard on the business community.

You're going to see implement dealers falling by the wayside left and right because they will not be selling the equipment which is required and this. of course. is going to mean unemp loyment in the 977 cities because the farming community will just not be able to make the purchases that keep the economy rolling, especially in Manitoba. As I already stated. that it is esse ntial that this prov ince provide a larger tax base in Man itoba. if we don't, the circumstances will be disastrous.

In order for us to attract industry into the province. our tax base must be similar to the tax base in other provinces or indus try just won't come. In order for the govern ment to attract industry and business. the climate must be conducive to attract business and industry. This means that you will have to court business and by your actions gain the confidence of the business world or your efforts are going to be in vain. They will not trust you. You have only one bargaining item to attract indus try and that is electrical power. the availability of elec tricity and the relative low cost of electricity.

You can continue to develop electrical power and maintain a relatively low cost. if you do this in its proper sequence. If we can sel l power to Alberta and Saskatchewan and have them pay for the next power site so that when this power is required in Manitoba, the dam is paid for. or almost paid for and this can be accomplished if we are going to work hard and see that the power grid materializes.

If we can get a major user of electricity like Al can to pay for a power site up front. pay Manitoba Hydro for administration. pay for the transm ission lines. pay for their share of Lake Winnip eg Regu lation and the Churchill Diversion. pay for the water that is required to run the power plant, at the same time not have this major industry take advantage of power that is already paid for or partially paid for. then we can assure that power price will remain relatively constant and we will be able to continu e to attract industry and provide low-cost electricity to our Man itoba consu mer.

If this government will contin ue along the same line as the previous administration did, that is. be certain that the sale of power will pay for the construction of the next power site, and the next. and the one after that, then Man itobans will enjoy low-cost power for many many years. We will be able to attract industry. build a larger tax base and indeed become a have province. There, however, must be an understan ding by gov ernment on how to attract industry and this under stan ding see ms to be lacking at the present time. This govern ment has no one that seems to be able to put a deal together.

This government doesn't even have anyone that seems to be able to assess and evaluate the deals that the previous govern ment had almost completed. This govern ment is afraid of making mis takes and rather than tak ing a chance on a mistake by going into a deal such as Alcan. the Western Power Grid. potash and all the ancillary industries that these industries would attract. they would rather let them slip through their fingers and tell the people these were bad deals, thereby convincing the people of this province that Manitoba would be better off without the so-called mega projects.

I am certain that they can sell this to the public because the public is quite gullible in many of these areas because they have not been clued in completely as to the deals and the public by and large, would buy a lot of this. But what are the conseq uences? This will

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 ensur e that Manitoba would forever be a have-not province. There is a lot of urgency attached to acting imme diately. We have to have a larger tax base. We must not raise taxes beyond other provinces or we wo uld lose our competetive tax structure which is a must if we are to attract industry. With these few comments, Mr. Speaker, I would like to pass this on to the next speaker. · MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr. Jerrie T. Storie (Flin Flon): The Honour able Member for Virden. MR. HARRY GRAHAM (Virde n): Thank you, Mr. Deput y Speaker.

Mr Dep uty, it was just five short weeks ago that this House first sat for the new Sess ion with a new govern ment who are going to control the affairs of this province for the next four years or maybe a shorter term, hopefully.

When the Throne Speech was brought down, there was a Mover and a Seconder and I was particularly impressed with the remarks of the Honourable Member for Burrows who seconded the Throne Speech Debate and I notice the honourable member here today - and I want to once again pay tribute to him for his contri bution to this Chamber because he spoke about responsibi lity and mor ality in public service and in govern ment and this Chamber is part and parcel of that. In five short weeks, Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, we have seen more evidence and every day it is inc reasing of lack of morality, lack of integrity on the part of this govern ment. We have seen a public debate carried on by the Honour able Minister of Health in his negotia tions with the doctors. I think today we had

chapter 7 of the public debate on his so-called neg otiations with the doctors. Most of those statements by the Min ister have been rather one-side d explaining the Minster's position and, I would have to say, Mr. Deputy Speaker. that in most cases the tone of those statements was not intend ed to produce a spirit of co-operation and one in which negotiations could be carried on in good faith and in a climate of co-operation. I would hope that future nego tiations will be carried on at the bargaining table rather than in the public forum as they have been up to now. Mr.

Speaker, we also heard the First Minister in some of his statements and his state ments are somewhat varied, speak about co-operative feder alism and we were going to see a new era of co-operation between the Provincial Gov ernment and the Federal Govern ment and that would lend itself to, hopefully, better relations between the Province of Manitoba and the Federal Governme nt. And yet, it was just last week, Mr.

Speaker, where the Honour able Minister of Transp ortation introduced a resolution and I should like to read just the fi rst quotation: "WHERE AS the Government of Canada has announc ed its intention to abolish the statutory rates ." Now I would assume that the Min ister has to have some documentation to justify a statement of that nature.

He did provide us with what he called explanatory notes and information which, I, as a con scientious member, read and yet I found in all of the reading and the statements of the Federal Govern ment that there was no indication whatsoever on the part of the Federal Gove rnmen t of abolishing these 978 statutory rates. In fact, the opposite was true. The Federal Governme nt was very careful to point out that all the benefits that have existed from the Crow will continue to exist. And yet the Min ister stands up here and says that they have annou nced their intention to abolish. Now, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, may I sug gest to you that in any debate or in any resolution when you start with a false premise you'll probably end up with a false answer. We will see as this debate contin ues in this Chamber whether or not we arrive at that conclusion. But I think it is imperative, Mr.

Speak er, that Min isters of the Crown follow the advice that was given to them by the Honour able Member for Burrows, that morality and truthfulness are exemplary characteristics that should be displayed and are expected to be displayed by Ministers of the Treasury Bench, in particular, and by all members of the House in general. So, Mr. Speaker, it is of some conc ern to me to see these various actions taking place where the essence of truth seems to be secondary to the personal political ambitions of this gove rnment. It is indeed disturbing, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when you see things of this nature occurring.

Mr. Speaker, I represent the constituenc y of Virden. It's a constituenc y that has oil, potash, farming, and possibly even ManOil . Rural Manit oba in today's society, Mr. Speaker, is not in a healthy econ omic climate. Gr ain prices are falling , cattle prices have been disastrous, the Min ister of Agricultur e has yet to an nounce the final quarter prescribed price on the beef stabilization which ends tomorrow and he hasn't even annou nced the price yet for the last quarter.

No wonde r the farmers of Western Man itoba vote Con servative; no wonder the farmers of Western Manitoba have little faith in this governm ent, no wonder the farmers cons istently turn their backs on socialism because socialism has a habit of corrupting and we have seen evidence of that in this Session already. We heard the Minister of Energy today under repeated questioning evading truthful answers. That, Mr. Speaker, does not lead to faith in the political process or faith in the people that are charged with the responsi bility of gove rnmen t. I say that, Mr.

Speaker, because it was just last week that same Min ister came out to the Constitue ncy of Virden and made rather defin ite political promises to some of the people of that area, and built their hopes up very high that some activity would occur in the future. I happen to agree with the action that has been promised by the Minister and I would encour age him to put forward the legislation that he has promised, but I have to ask the question, Mr.

Speaker, in the light of yesterday's and today's activity in the House, whether the people that he spoke to last week will have the same faith in him today as they did a week ago. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this province is not one that is blessed with ample financial resources and when we annou nce certain programs we have to find the necessary funds to finance it from time-to-time. And when we find our Minister of Fina nce tak ing financial prospecti to foreign ma rkets to borrow money it is encumbent on that Min ister to present, fairly and accurately and truthfully, the affairs of the Province of Man itoba.

Failure to do so, Mr. Speaker , would only bring into discredit not only this govern ment but the

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 Province of Man itoba as a whole; and when we hear the answers that were given today by the Minister of Fina nce he did not do justice to the office that he temporarily holds, because he has brought into dis credit the Province of Manitoba and the people of this province as a whole. I sincerely hope that those people from other juris dictions will have the kin dness of heart to forgive him for some of his errors, but, Mr. Speaker, in doing so, I sincerely hope that those mistakes will not happen again.

If this Chamber is to be a worthwhile place and if the people that are elected and sent here to look after the affairs of this province can do so in a spirit where honesty, integrity and morality are paramount at all times, then I think the affairs of this province, regardless of what political party is in power, will be respected by the people.

The political philosophy, we will always have differences of opin ion on the various philosophies, and the people have a right to choose but, once elected, I say to any person, any govern ment, that they must be honest, they must be for thright and open with the people or else they bring the entire political spectrum into disrepute. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. Bill NO. 14 -THE INTERIM APPROPRIATION ACT, 19 82 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Would you call Bill No. 14 now, please? MR.

CHAIRMAN: On the proposed motion of the Honour able Minister of Finance,

an Act for Granting to Her Majesty Certain Sums of Money for the Public Service of the Province for the Fiscal Year Ending the 31 st day of March, 19 83, and to Authorize Commit ments to Expend Additional Money in Subsequent Years. The Honour able Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID R. (Dave) BLAKE (Minnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Dep uty Speaker. That is almost encour aging enough for me to carry on. I am not quite prepared to speak at the present time so if someone else wishes to speak I would defer and I'll make my comments later. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opp osition. MR. l YON: Mr.

Speaker, I welcome the oppor tunity to make some comments on the matter of Interim Supply which we will be vo ting upon later this even ing. This is an occasion for new members of the House to witness this procedure in the last few days, an oppor tun ity for Members of the Opposition and members of the Government for that matter, to make comment upon the expen ditures of this large sum of money which is being voted, as was explained by the Min ister, to tide the government over until such time as its Main Supply can be voted by this 979 House a little later on.

It leads me to fill out that brief explanation by saying to honourable members, particularly those who are new to the House, that in that very Act we are fulfilling the very essence and the heart of parliament, that is to vote Supply. Parliament exists primarily for that rea son, to take money from the people and then to spend money on behalf of the people. When we are in a Supply debate, as we are in Interim Supply, and later on we are in Main Supply in the Estimates, we are really cond ucting the heart of parliament's business.

So I welcome the opportunity along with the other members, to participate in this Interim Supply debate and to make some comments about the situation, economic and otherwise, as we find it in Man itoba today; make some comments I hope not all critical - perhaps some that will be helpful in a positive way for the members of the govern ment, perhap s to offer some advice which may be treated as being gratui tous advice by them but nonetheless when I offer it, it will be made with the interests of the people of Mani toba in mind and the furtherance of the public interest and of course, to offer criticism which is the job of the Opposition to offer criticism to the governme nt for their sins of omission and their sins of commission.

Mr. Speaker, as I look upon that latter aspect of my remarks and as I look at the clock, I tell you, Sir, that I could be here for an awfully long time. Mr.

Speaker, some of the documents to which I wish to refer today, I'm going to lay on the table of the House because I think that for the sake of the historic record, for the people who will follow after us, for students who will be doing stud ies of this particular period in the history of the province, I think it's impor tant that they should have not only the Ha nsard record, wherein members on this side make quotes from documents and members on that side make quotes from documents but if we file those docu ments -o r at least some of the one s to which I will be referring - if we file them with the Clerk of the House, in his very capable hands, they then become available to all members of this Chamber and indeed to all members of the public in Man itoba for purposes of research; for purposes of accuracy; for purposes of check ing the facts and so on; the documents will be there.

I do this, Mr. Speaker, because very often in the hurly-burly of debate we find that our good friends in the press, we find some of our own members, we find members of the government perhaps not listening as attentively as they should or not reading all sections of Hans ard as we certainly do not expect them to, will miss certain points that are made from documenta tion that is freely available to them. So, Mr. Speaker, for those purposes I wish to lay certain documents on the table of the Hous e. They are all public documents that are freely available to anyone in the House.

I particular commend to the new members of the Hous e on our side of the House as well as on the gove rnment side of the House, that in any spare time that they have I ask them not to read my speech particularly because they will form thei r own subjec tive judgme nts on that. but I ask them to look at some of these documents which represent the historic fact and record of Man itoba and bear upon some of the things that I will be sayi ng today and that my col leagues here have been saying for the past several

30 March, 1982 days: indeed, since the House first met on the 25th of February. Mr. Speaker, amongst those documents that I lay on the table of the Hous e at the present time would be the following: First of all what is entitled the prospec tus supplement; the date of this prospectus supple ment is March 8, 19 82 and this is a document which has attached to it another document entitled Prospec tus Prov ince of Man itoba Debt Securities and at the bottom of the page it says the date of this prospectus is December 23, 19 81 .

In the last few days members on this side of the House and the govern ment side have been quoting from this document at some length and so I think it's worthwhile to have the document tabled. I do so now, Sir. The second document I should like to lay on the table of the House, Mr. Speaker, is a document that also has been referred to on a number of occasions during the course of the Throne Speech Debate and Estimates Debate and tha t is a document turned out by the Ne w Democratic Party during the last election called A Clear Choice For Man itobans; Policies of the Man itoba New Democratic Party.

Then at the bottom it says: Great People, Great Future; Manitoba and the NOP. And on the first page of that document for better identification, Mr. Speaker, is a picture of the current First Min ister, Mr. Pawley, with a few paragraphs with his sig nature beneath it. So, I lay that document on the table of the House because I think it's important that members opposit e, future people who are look ing at the historic record in Man itoba have those doc uments in front of them when they are considering the worth and the value of the government that we have in the Province of Man itoba at the present time. Mr.

Speaker, there's another document I should like to lay on the table of the House. It's a document that I understand was freely available; certainly came to my hands with no difficulty. It's a part of the New De mo cratic Party Convention resolutions from last Febru ary, I believe it was, when the govern ment sitting as a party had a convention in the City of Winn ipeg at which they celebrated their victory and at which they discussed a number of resolutions. For the sake of bulk, I'm only tabling the resolutions which run from Pages 19 to 58 which I also lay on the table of the House, Mr. Speaker.

I'm also laying on the table the final communique of the Federal-Provincial Conf er ence of First Min isters entit led Conclusions of the Conference, February 13 to 15 , 19 78, Ottawa; that's entitled Document 800-7/078. This is the final com munique of a First Ministers' meeting that was held in 19 78 among st the Prime Min ister, then Mr. Trudeau and the 11 premiers as they then were in Canada. That is a document which I would particular commend to the Min ister of Financ e because he seems to be somewhat unaware of its terms. An other document I have, Mr.

Speaker, that I think should be tabled for the edification of all of the electo rate in Man itoba is a document entit led Notes For an Address by Premier Howard Pawley to the annu al meeting, Brandon Chamber of Commerce, Wednes day, March 17 , 19 82; hold for delivery; 6 p.m., the Red Oak Inn and the pages that follow there; pages run ning from one I believe over to ten. I table that docu ment, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I also table a document entitled The Twenty-Second Ann ual Premiers' Conference, Victo ria, British Columbia, Aug ust 11 -15 , 19 81, final com munique, Review of the Economy.

Then there are other documents attached to that, Mr. Speaker, which represent a compendium, as I understand it, of all of the communiques that were issued by the ten premi ers of Canada last Aug ust at the Victoria Premiers Conference; the second document in that group is a communique on Federal-Provincial fiscal arrange ments. Then there are attachments which are quoted in that document such as the Declaration of the Ottawa Summit and the Declaration of the Ven ice Summit which was referred to in the Premiers' com muniques from Victoria. I table that document as well, Mr. Speaker, thank you.

If any others come to mind and if time permits me to refer to others I will certainly do so, Mr. Speaker , but I want those to be on the record for the time being at least. I should like to begin today, Sir, with a general discussion about the econ omic future of Manitoba. We kn ow what the prospects were for the economic development of our province as at November 17 , 19 81 and because of persistent questioning we have begun to get a fair idea in the last few weeks since this House met as to how that situation has chang ed.

I must say, Sir, changed regrettably for the worst, since our col leagues, the members of the New Democratic Party were given the honour and the respo nsibility of form ing the Governme nt of Man itoba. We heard only today, Mr.

Speaker, and last Thursday as well, the alarming intelligenc e from the Min ister of Mines and Energy to the effect that the Memor andum of Und er sta nding that the previous govern ment had signed with IMC for the development of Man itoba's first potash mine - which said memorandum had been extended by the previous gover nment to the date of December 15 , 19 81 - has now been allowed to lapse by those who are temporarily in charge of public affairs in this province, the members of the New Democratic Party. Mr.

Speaker, that is a matter not only of great regret but that, Sir, is a matter that augurs very badly for the economic future of this province, because notwith standing all of the the rhetorical devices that were used today by the Minister of Mines and Ener gy and the greatest rhetorical device that the Min ister of Financ e apparently has which is dumb silence, not withstan ding all of those pareg rinations that we wit nessed this afternoon. 980 The hard fact remains, Mr. Speaker, that we are much further away now from the development of Manitoba's first potash mine than we were in November of 19 81 and, Mr.

Speaker, we are trying to find out on behalf of the taxpayers of Man itoba why that situation has come about. Now I accept because I kn ow that negotiations of this kind are delicate; I kn ow that negotiations sometimes will change terms of agreements and so on. I accept the fact that negoti ations when we left office were still ongoing on some substantitive matters and so on but, Mr. Speaker, why were they allowed to lapse? Why, Mr. Speaker, is IMC apparently now put into the position of being just another supplicant at the door of this new socialist govern ment?

And IMC, if we can believe the words of the Minister of Mines and

30 March, 1982 Ene rgy, has now been asked to submit a proposal as though it were someone who had never dealt with the Government of Man itoba before. At the same time the Minister of Mines and Ene rgy is quick to tell us that there are other potash compan ies with whom the Government of Man itoba is prepared to deal, without naming them of course. We kn ow of course, Mr.

Speaker, because in our term in office a company called Amax did obtain exploration rights on a mineral ized area in Southwest Man itoba north, as I understand it generally speak ing, north of the area on which IMC was interested in developing its mine and went ahead to the extent of many millions of dollars of expen diture in order to update drilling, do core sampling and other thing s that were necessary in order to ensur e that we had a viable potash mine in Man itoba, the fi rst in our his tory, Mr. Speaker.

May I take a moment and recall for your benefit and the benefit of the House, without getting into all the detail of the matter, that the major finding s that IMC had come up with and had made public as a result of its renewed drilling over the last several months and years of negotiation on this matter was first of all, that there was a quality of ore in Man itoba that was gen er ally believed to be higher than had been the belief heretofore - No. 1. No. 2.

That there was an ore body that was econ om ically viable for purposes of minin g and, indeed, that the ton nages involved in the delineation of that ore body within the boundaries of Man itoba were such as to encourage the mining company doing the explora tion, and so on, that there were tonna ges beyond what they had anticipated the case to be when they first embarked on this first exploration program. So, Mr. Speaker, this was not some will-o'-the-wisp election promise gimmick as the Minister of Mines and Energy would now like us to believe.

This was an ongoing serious prudent discussion negotiation between the two parties which was reported upon in this Ho use on at least two different sessions and I believe the Memorandum of Un derstanding, unless I'm mistaken, was filed in this House so that members opposite could be made aware of the potential that existed for Man itoba to have its first potash mine - and the Memorandum of Un derstanding which was referred to by the Minister of Fina nce in his prospec tus, the words that he used were for all practical pur poses sofaras we were aware, Mr.

Speaker, up until the middle of last week, those words were true. We thought that the Memor andum of Un derstand ing that we had left them with upon which we expected they would negotiate in good faith and pru dently on behalf of the people of Man itoba, we thought that that Memorandum of Un derstanding was still in existence because this company had spent millions of dollars in Manit oba to tell themselves and to tell the govern ment and the people of Manitoba what this exciting potential could be for a potash mine. But lo and behold, Mr.

Speaker, last week like a bolt from the blue we were told by the Min ister of Mines and Energy that the Memorandum of Un der standing had been allowed to lapse and had been allowed to lapse, Mr. Speaker, on the 15 th of December, 19 81. Now, Mr.

Speaker, later on in my remarks I'm going 981 to be quoting from remarks that were made by the now First Minister of this province when he talks about restoring confidenc e to the business commun ity, when he talks about being a partner of business and I want to add ress a question right now and they'll have ample opportun ity tonight or during the rest of this Sess ion to the First Minister or if he chooses, as is usual not to respond, to his Min ister of Mines and Energy. How is that a manifestation of the building of confidence among the business co mmun ity?

How is that kind of shoddy treatment a manifesta tion of the kind of partn ership that the Government of Man itoba would like to have with business people, whether from Canada or from abroad who wish to come and make large sizable investments here, that will have a genera tional impact upon our economy and it will create thousands of jobs directly and indi rectly for the people of Man itoba and particularly for the young people? Mr.

Speaker, as I listened on Thursday and Friday to the Minister of Mines and Energy make these alarm ing revelations to the House, my mind went back to a fall afternoon in the little hamlet of McAuley, Mani toba where we visited during the election campaign and the school turned out that day and the citizen ry of McAuley and surrounding districts turned out, repre sentati ves of IMC were there and we were ta lking about the potentials in the cons tituency of the Hon ourable Member for Virden, talking about the poten tial of this great potash mine for the people of Mani toba but particularly for that community and for the surrounding area in Southwest Man itoba.

Mr. Speaker , I kn ow that the Min ister of Mines and Energy is not very familiar with Western Man itoba but if he knew something about how the people of that part of the world have worked in Saskatchewan at the potash mines, have seen those headframes rise up half-a-mile over the Man itoba boundary in Saskatc h ewan because the ore body was there, and have gone to work there and have benefited from that.

If he could only begin to understand how important it is to them, psychologically and economically, to know that they were going to have their potash mine in Man itoba because the govern ment had been working with IMC on a joint ventur e for at least two years to make that dream of theirs come about. So, Mr.

Speaker, when we heard these revelations from the Min ister of Mines and Energy last week, my mind did go back to the people of McAuley and to the kind of disappointment that I am sure they must be undergoing at the present time when they hear him dismiss IMC as being just another group who are able, under this new munificent regime that we have here, able to come and make a proposal to the Go vern ment of Man itoba along with anybody else who may wander in the door and I suppose listen ing to the words of the First Min ister, we can expect that one of those people wande ring in the door, who will be treated I suppose somewhat better than IMC with whom we've been carrying on nego tiations in good faith, a term that I hope means something to our friends opposite, I sup pose one of those people who will get a slightly warmer ag reement if they submit a proposal would be Sask Potas h, that great Crown corporation from Sas katchewan because the First Minister of this province already has admitted that he and his mentor, the Pre-

30 March, 1982 mier of Saskatchewan, have been tal kin g about join t development and exploitation of potash in Man itoba. Now he did later on, Mr. Speaker, to keep the record straight, he did try to water that statement down and say, well no, we were talking really about marketing. But if you read carefully, Sir, the question that was put to him early on in the life of this Ho use about his discussions with his mentor and his advisor from Reg ina, then you will see, Mr.

Speaker, that he has more serious thing s in mind than just marketing and I dare say that the comments like that don't do much to imbue that level of confidence among business peo ple wanti ng to do business in Man itoba when they know that a couple of socialists can get together and scratch one another 's backs and play around - well if there are other things that you're scratching perhaps you would tell us, and play around . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time being 4:30 p.m., we have reached the time of Private Members' Hour The Honour able Govern ment House Leader. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that there is a indication that both the Opp osition and the gov ernme nt are ready to forego this Private Hour in order to facilitate the passing of 14 today and that we ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Opposition Hous e Leader. MR. RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is an agree ment that we are prepared to continue the debate on Bill 14 . MR. SPEAKER: Then by leave of the House, we will continue with Bill 14 . The Honour able Leader of the Oppo sition. MR. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that we are beginning to see only the unfolding of what I hope devoutly for the sake of the future of Man itoba will not be the kind of sordid tale that we have been hearing in the last few days from the Minister of Mines and Energy, a sordid tale of disappoi ntment, a sordid tale of frustration, a sordid tale of defeat for the people of Man itoba who, up until the 30th of Novem ber with good negoti ating still going on, had within their gr asp the realization of Man itoba's first potash mine which now, Mr.

Speaker, seems to be something off in the distant sky, something that anyone can come along and make a proposal on including, I suppose, the Crown corporation from Saskatchewan work ing with some new socialist plaything or Crown corporation that my friends opposite are probably going to put in place. Well. Mr.

Speaker, that's not good enough because that was a $640 million to $800 million project that my honourable friends are tink ering ar ound with and thus far, we have very little upon which to base any hope that potash mine is not now well beyond our reach in terms of implementation and all of the bene fits that would flow from that potash mine to the peo ple of Man itoba. So, Mr. Speaker, on the potash mine they went to bat and they appear to have had one strike so far, no hits at all. no fly balls, nothing. 982 Let's take a look at Alcan, Mr.

Speaker, and I think that in the, when we left office on the 30th day of Novem ber, 19 81, Al can was still in serious negotiation with the Govern ment of Man itoba about the develop ment of a $600 million or more aluminum smelter at a site in the Interlake which they had selected as being the most economic site for them to base their first no nseaboard operation in Nor th America and that was not something , Mr.

Speaker, to use the words which he will come to regret, as his time on the Treas ury Bench grows longer as it may not, having regard to his rate of success thus far - which my honourable friend will come to regret when he referred to it as being a political nego tiation. My honourable friend kn ows full well, Mr. Speaker, that these negotiations, like potash negotiations had been going on for some consid erable period of time, were well advanced; they were nego tiations that were being made in good faith.

Indeed, all members of this Hous e, Sir, including yourself, last year had the opportun ity to meet with the members of the Alcan negotia ting group who came out to Man itoba to explain to this whole Leg islature, to the press, the people of Man itoba what they were attempting to negotiate in terms of Manitoba's first aluminum smelter and Al can's first smelter off seaboard, or off salt water and we thought that that was a go od thing for the people of Manitoba and that its completion and - subject to the environ mental studies that had been put under way and the socioeconomic studies that had been put under way and that were well under way when we left office - that was moving forward with good prospect for the people of Man itoba and that the jobs, the thousands of jobs that were potentially within our grasp from that Alcan smelter were jobs that would benefit, not only the Interlake including the constituenc y of the Member for Selkirk, not only the Interlake, but the whole of industry in Man itoba.

This was a big ventu re, Mr. Speaker, this was some thing that comes to a province, something that a prov ince would have to negotiate say once in a lifetime. And now, what do we hear from the sa

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-24a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 24a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b84382032519762703aab8591ffe7df9a298084c

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