Manitoba Hansard — 9 April 1976 (Sitting 71, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-71

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 p.m., Friday, April 9, 1976 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 2203 MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed this afternoon, I'd like to draw the attention of the honourable members to the galleries on my left here where we have 26 students, Grade 7 and 8 standing, from the Sifton School under the direction of Mr. Ron Shewchuk. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Dauphin, the Honourable Minister of Highways. We also have 17 students, Grade 12 standing from Bemidji High School, Bemidji, Minnesota under the direction of Mr. Skinner.

This group is here as guests of Mr. Speaker. On behalf of members of the Assembly, I bid you welcome here this afternoon. SUPPLY - DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN: I now would refer honourable members to Page 27 of their Estimates Book. Resolution 58(c)(1) - $213,300. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister could tell me how many people are involved in this salary of $213,300. I wonder if he could tell me whether there are any doctors on this particular salary, any psychiatrists. I wonder if he could tell me under which

section over here we'll be able to discuss the Ryant Report. -- (Interjection) -- Well I hope that we'll - the Minister tells me that we already have discussed the Ryant Report. We were on that under 3(b)7 but the report refers to a review of child welfare policies, programs and services in Manitoba and if I read the heading of this, provides program support and funding for statutory child welfare services provided by regional office, child care institutions and children's aid societies. So I wonder if the Minister could provide us with some of these answers. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: The staff is the same as last year, 18. There are no doctors on that staff. MR. BROWN: I wonder if he can tell us how many regional offices there are in this particular program, your child and family services, how many regional offices are there and how many child care institutions do we have in Manitoba? MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr.

Chairman, sorry I missed the session this morning but I was wondering, and these headings on these Estimates can be very confusing, and I'm wondering, I'm seeking now information, I'd like to ask the Minister, where can we discuss abortions? Would that come under this heading? Abortions, pertaining to abortions; it's a subject that's of great interest to citizens of this province. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I guess this is as good a place as any. Either that or at the hospital.

The programs for abortion are usually performed in a hospital so those programs probably would be in the Manitoba Health Services Commission. But I have no objection if you want to discuss now. Providing if we get involved in pro grams that are administered for instance in hospitals, I think we should wait under the Manitoba Health Services Co=ission. Now if we're talking about just the general prin ciple of abortion, it would be perfectly all right to discuss it at this time. MR. EINARSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think then it would be in order.

This is a subject that has been brought to my attention by a number of citizens around this province, and it pertains to the way the law is administered. Now I have had people say to me that they're not satisfied the way the laws are administered in the Province of Manitoba insofar as abortions are concerned. Now it's a very touchy matter, Mr. Chairman, in discussing this with many people because of their strong feelings towards this particular subject. I am wondering, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister feels satisfied, and if he would explain to us the setup insofar as our abortion cases are concerned.

What is the setup insofar as the Department of Health is concerned? If he would describe the composition of the board, how it

2204 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. EINARSON cont'd) •••• • functions, and are there any abuses by individuals inso far as the taxpayers are concerned because, Mr. Chairman, I have been informed that some cases they may go to New York and if there are cases performed there, they are done at the taxpayers' expense in the Province of Manitoba. I am merely seeking infor mation. I would like to know if this is correct or if it's not. So I think with those few comments, Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister could start to elaborate then we can go from there. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, to the Member from Rhineland, there are seven regions in the rural areas and one in the city, although there is a paper now in front of HESP, a policy paper suggesting that we have seven regions in the city. Abortions: If we're going to discuss the funding or the financing or the payment of abortion in New York and so on, that should come under the Manitoba Health Services Commission.

Now as far as the - it is the Criminal Code that isthe law ofthe land on this. Every hospital that wishes to have such a program have a committee of doctors and before an abortion is allowed the doctor that is recommending the abortion has to place the case in front of this committee. If this is accepted, well then an abortion could be performed. Now I would suspect that those that are leaving Manitoba are doing so to evade the law, the Criminal Code, which does not permit abortion on demand.

I will wait until we get to the Manitoba Health Services Commission to make doubly sure, but as far as I'm con cerned there is certainly no abortion performed like this in the States that are covered by the Manitoba Health Services Commission. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, that's one point of contention that I am pleased to hear the Minister say - and I want to reiterate and hopefully that I understand the answer he gave me, that at no time where an abortion is performed outside the Province of Manitoba that that would be a bill of expense against the taxpayers of this province.

That's one thing that has been mentioned to me and I just wanted to make sure that the matter was clear. I'm wondering also if the Minister is satisfied with the system that we have oper ating in the Province of Manitoba or has he received any complaints in regard to the way the system operates. I know he explained that there's a group of doctors - he didn't say how many - that forms a committee whereby every case has to go before that committee before it can be justified.

I'm wondering, is the Minister fully satisfied with the system that is now operating in the Province of Manitoba insofar as cases of abortion are con cerned. MR. DESJARDINS: The statement that I made that there is no illegal abortion, abortion that would be illegal here that would be covered if they are performed outside of the province. Now there could be certain conditions, I guess, that this might happen but I'd want to make sure with the people from the Manitoba Health Services Commission, I'd want to check with them. I'm not going to get involved in my personal feelings if I'm satisfied.

I don't think anybody is satisfied. There's no way that you're going to please everybody. There is a very strong, very vocal group who feel that abortion is criminal, and so on. It's a question of religion with some people, with belief, and so on. Some think that it is murder, and other people feel that there should be abortion on demand. Now this is a federal law.

My responsibility as Minister of Health is to see that the law is upheld, that we follow the law, and what I described a little earlier was the way that the law works now that on request the case is studied; if there are certain reasons, and so on, if the doctor feels that it is for the welfare of the mother that there should be an abortion, he has to present this to a committee of his peers that they have in hospitals, and if this is accepted, well they have an abortion.

So I don't care to comment, to say if the law should be changed, and so on, because I have my belief as an individual and I've my responsibility as the Minister of Health. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I just want to pursue one thing further, and just to say to the Minister that in posing the question, I didn't feel it would be fair to him to ask him his personal views. That was not my intent; rather I was asking him a question on the basis of him as the Minister of this government and if he's satisfied with the government policy. Oh, no, I would not want to ask him his personal views on this

April 9, 1976 2205 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. EINARSON cont'd) ••••• whatsoever, I don't think that would be fair to him. It's the policy of the government I'm concerned about. Is he satisfied as the Minister, as part of that government? That's really what I'm asking. MR. DESJARDINS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I wasn't being touchy, and I wasn't suggesting that my friend was trying to rope me into a debate, that's not the situation, but I said as the Minister of Health I'm trying to uphold the law of the land, the way it is now. And, you know, who is satisfied?

There is no doubt that the people that want it, and there are many of them, that want abortion on demand, are not satisfied. This is an issue that you're never satisfied. In fact I don't think we're satisfying anybody, not only half of them, like in some instances, because those that want it on demand are certainly not satisfied, and those that oppose abortion as they feel that it is criminal, that it is murder, well they're certainly not satisfied with the situation. All I can say is this is why I chose to answer in this manner.

All I can say is that I'm satisfied that in Manitoba we are trying to do as much as possible to interpret and follow a law that is very very difficult. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr.

Chairman, I wondered if I might be given the opportunity under 213, 000, the 18 employees, and combine it with the maintenance of the children, to speak about something that was touched upon earlier by the Member for Fort Rouge, and I certainly agreed with the Minister when we talked about - I'll look at it from a municipal point of view if I may at this time, from the point of view of the taking back in this area the presentation or the prevention of - to get these children back into a rural setting.

I think that the Federal Government is shirking their responsibility in the particular area of our native population in bringing them into the City of Winnipeg when prevention should be taken care of in a rural setting, because what is happening, when we turned around and increased the demands on urban areas, such as I represent, for day care facilities, that means that the working mothers who use those facilities before are now being re placed. I wonder if the Minister might comment on the present policy as it stands per taining to the school system.

I know in many of the Chil dren's Aid Society homes that I have in my area, the children must attend school. I'm glad the Minister of Education is here because these are all, in my thinking, a direct cost to the taxpayers of Winnipeg, and if it is a federal responsibility maybe there should be a strengthening of the accoun tancy system or something, to see that we do get the cost of these programs paid for by the Federal Government, and I share the Minister's concern in that regard.

I also wanted to touch upon a meeting that I attended today which gave me some facts which were interesting and the Minister sent Rev. Green, in his place of course, and I was looking for the Children's Aid Society Annual Meeting Report, and I wonder if the Minister could comment. I certainly support him and thank him for his support of this organization but there seems to be a great decline in the number of areas of people, for instance in cases of unmarried parents and cases of placement sources, and that, I wondered is the government playing a larger role in reducing the role of the Children's Aid Society.

I also was wondering in the area of the possible breakdown under this 14i million of the cost per child, how we got any figures that would indicate how many children are being helped and the approximate cost per child? I wondered if I might also suggest to the Minister that we might consider relaxing the qualifications for these group homer and possibly spreading them out.

I have a report here which indicates the majority of them are in my riding, and while I don't quarrel with the humane parts of this program I would urge the Minister to look at the possibility of spreading these throughout the city and, as I mentioned before, into a .rural setting because they do create problems in that we now have a crisis teacher at Gordon Bell, we have one at Laura Secord, we possibly may need a nutritional program in the downtown core.

I understand the rumours are about that this program may be cut, and I suggest that so long as you are going to continue to locate these group foster homes in the particular downtown core, you certainly can't remove the very programs which are required because of the transportation of these rural children and problem children into the downtown core of the city, and I'd like to see them spread out. I wondered if we couldn't possibly look at a policy of suggesting that we have

2206 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. WILSON cont'd) ••••• better maintained homes, and possibly we could ••• I would like to ask the Minister, what is the per diem rate now, and could we reduce the per diem rate?

I would like to ask him, have people been making money on this program because these reports indicate that some people have moved in as high as six and eight homes and they now seem to be managing under limited corporations, and I refer to the Bridgeman Homes Limited, which has six or eight homes in my area, and at the per diem rate of $20 a day this seems to me a possible area which I would think that I would want to have some reasons as to why we are unable to attract more people into group homes. Is it because of the qualifications ?

What seems to be the problem in being unable to get a larger expansion in the group home area? So I'm not quarreling with the Minister's $18.7 million figure in this, I'm just talking about the priorities of spending. Why is the per diem rate - if the Minister could give me the per diem rate - in my opinion the figures I have, why is it so high, what is the difficulty in getting more people to move into the group home area, and how many ex employees of the provincial department have gone into this business ?

This is the type of thing that I'm interested in, because if it's becoming, because of qualifications, so attractive that it is becoming a money making proposition, then maybe we should relax the qualifications, spread these throughout the City of Winnipeg rather than concentrating them into one area and creating problems for both the children and the taxpayers of that area. MR. CHAmMAN: Resolution 58(c)(1). The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, as my honourable friend has covered pretty well the waterfront, and I don't think I understood all his concern.

There's one concern that came out quite clearly, I think that the honourable member feels that there are too many of these homes in his constituency. There is no doubt that we would like - it's just like schools - we would like to decentralize these as much as possible, but we're certainly not thinking of bringing in regulation that will start regulating how many people per constituency will have these homes.

These applications are made by residents of his constituency in many instances, and so on, and if they are qualified, you know, there are not that many volunteers, especially good ones that we can turn ••. on them. If they apply and they are found that they would make good foster parents, we will accept that. Now as far as the per diem rate. Well the per diem rate is very difficult because it changes, it's not always the same, it depends on the level of care. But I will admit that this is a very very difficult problem. It is a problem.

I must id·entify this as a problem that we are facing now and I think I said earlier that we are opening an office of the residential care where we can look at the per diem of all these areas, find out what kind of level - I guess we can compare that to the hospital field where it has been said that there's too many acute beds and not enough personal care beds, and that we have people that are using acute beds where they could be in a less costly bed. It's the same thing. And that definitely exists in this area also.

We are not pleased with them, we 're moving in that direction to try to assess to see what kind of a care we need and then to review the per diem rate. We have a situation where an agency, the Children's Aid Society, for instance has to place a child in a hurry, whatever, the first place open this is where they're going to go and it might be $40 a day instead of something that could be done for maybe $12 a day. So we're very much aware; I admit that this is a problem. We're very much aware of that and we're moving to correct that as soon as possi ble. MR. WILSON: I apologize to the Minister.

I guess I should have levelled the questions probably o:J.e or two at a time instead of grouped together. But what I was get ting at is that I would like to better understand the polic y as to what are the qualifications, because we've don..e some research and we've made calls in response to federal and pro vincial ads. At least the last one I was involved with was a federal ad that appeared in the paper. We said we lived in St.

James and the people were not interested in us be cause they wanted to be downtown, they wanted to be near the services, whatever services those are, and I'm saying that concept in my opinion is wrong. I think if you take

April 9, 1976 2207 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. WILSON cont'd) • • • • a particular school, that if you have less of these problem children in the school then it's not necessary to hire a crisis teacher, they could be integrated throughout the community. I did want to talk about, as I mentioned, have people been making money out of these programs, and I do have this report in front of me. It indicates as the Minister pointed anywhere from $42 .23 a day to $20 a day.

Now the particular organization that I was interested in pays $110 a month to MHRC, I believe it's 162 Arlington and yet they charge for eight children, $20 a day. That to me would seem to, combined with their other five or six houses, and the one that I'm looking at now talks about four houses, Bridgeman houses at $20 per diem, the question I am raising is that it seems to me there's a decrease in the report even from the Children's Aid Society, other than the Minister's Department, which indicates that the private foster and boarding homes are actually diminishing from 812 to 600.

So that means that fewer people are going into the business. It shouldn't be a business, it should have been an encouragement of volunteers to take one or two children; it seems that we're congregating six and eight. And I am saying, what are the special qualifications that would warrant the government supporting a corporation that has gone into this busiiless. Are they experts in the field vis-a-vis the private home in St. Vital that might take one or two children into their home. I just would like that explained if possible. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that I've answered or tried to answer most of the problems. First of all I've recognized that there are problems. We are, as I've stated, we are developing standards in trying to find out the licensing, the level of care; we are doing this. I think it's true that individual homes have been diminishing but there has been more group homes. We would like to have homes where people will take one or two children. It has been difficult.

On one hand the honourable member states that maybe they're making too much money, and that might be the case; and in another area he feels, why are they going down , why is it difficult to have people to open these foster homes ? All I can say again is repeat what I've said, that we 're looking at the standards, we know that there is a problem.

There are some people that are coming in, some private individuals that can do it, they know there's a need for these homes so therefore they are offering to fill that need and they're doing a very good job; and there is no doubt there are other people that are there for the money. And this is exactly what we want to do) to make sure that we get our money's worth, that we have the proper level for the proper child and that we determine the standards.

I'm afraid that for the moment there's a lot to be desired in this field, and this is what we're looking at , this is part of the recom mendation of the Rya nt Report and this is an area that we've started moving in already. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might direct some questions to the Minister concerning the enforcement of the Child Welfare Act that was passed last year.

There were a number of areas of debate that were the subject of some concern when that bill was passed and I wonder, being a year hence, if we could look and see to what degree the particular application of that bill has succeeded in its objectives. Perhaps I could begin by first asking whether the part of the bill which up to this point I understand has not been proclaimed, the IX!rt allowing for subsidized adoptions in fact will be proclaimed, whether it's going to be a dead letter or if in fact there is some plan in the near future to bring that IX!rticular part of the Act into force.

I can recall I believe the Minister at the time when he brought the bill in suggest ing to the Hou se that the reasons for the subsidized adoptions was to provide particularly lower income families with the opportunity of taking children that they might have had in foster home care and allowing them to take over the adoption which would normally be prevented because of lack of income. I wonder if there's been some reason why that particular part of the Act hasn't been proclaimed. The second question I could raise with the Minister is the issue of the workings of the adoption registry.

If the Minister would recall at that time there was some concern being placed by the fact that those people that already applied for adoption permis sions in the City of Winnipeg felt that when the registry came into effect they would be

2208 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • • • • • placed lower down on the priority list and I would be interested in knowing again if in fact what was a mix-up at that particular time where the fact that people who had been on the list in the City of Winnipeg were placed lower on the list or that those who were outside the city were jumped over them. And again that was the information I had which I would be interested in knowing whether in fact there's been any correction on that particular problem of the worldngs of the adoption registry.

The third set of questions I'd like to ask the Minister would be on the question of treatment facilities that are available. There were some newspaper reports just recently that children who were taken under supervision or custody under the Child Welfare Act were in fact being placed in the Manitoba Youth Treatment Centre, and treatment facilities which are normally reserved for children who are juvenile offenders. It seemed to me that the mixture of those two groups of children might not necessarily work to the benefit of those who are simply being brought in because of custody reasons.

I suspect the reason why they're being placed there, if they were, was the fact that there isn't anywhere else to put them. And I would ask the Minister to comment upon the availability of alternative care facilities for children who are taken under custody aside from the normal foster home concept and see if in fact there is a shortage of facilities at the present moment, thereby requiring that children be placed in the Manitoba Youth Treat ment Centre or other facilities that are basically reserved for juvenile offenders. reserved for juvenile offenders • MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, as far as the subsidized adoption, we should have a policy, we're working on that. We should have a policy very soon on that. We haven't anything to announce at this time • The Adoption Registry, we're very very pleased, we feel that it's been working, it's been very fair. The average length of time the people have to wait now is 18 months. There's no doubt that in an area in the core of Winnipeg they have to wait longer. I think that their time would have been six months, but all in all it is worldng well.

The great majority of the people are certainly pleased, and it is certainly a fairer way than we had before. It is true that at time the Youth Centre has been used. Our Director of Child Welfare has instructed the people at the Receiving Centres not to have people that will stay there permanently or too long a time, to free these beds to be able to have these children taken in. We are endeavouring, and as I said, that's all part and parcel of what we are trying to do after these recommendations, to see how many beds we need. We're not too sure of the space that we need now.

This is what we're trying to deter mine, but at least we are informing the agencies not to place these people in the receiving beds, to keep those available instead of using the Youth Centre. As far as one of the areas of that Act that we're concerned with that hasn't worked as well as we thought, because we've had to reach a compromise) it has been with the Treatment Panel.

I think that probably that hasn't been really understood by the courts, by certain judges who have not, we feel, or our people feel, that have not co-operated as well as we would have liked to have seen them co-operate, so we've had some compromise, it's not working quite as well as we would have like to see it, but it's worldng. This is probably the area of the weakness, but as I say, the Adoption Registry, we're very pleased. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, on the last point raised by the Minister, about the problems of the Treatment Panel, the Ryant Report suggests that one of the problem areas has been in the lack of co-operation or collaboration between workers in the department and officials of the courts.

Seemingly that, for whatever the causes, there seems to be two different sets of attitudes about the treatment of children, and suggest that there be efforts made to undertake joint educational programs between child care workers and officials, the court, judges, and others to ensure that there would be a proper co-operation and a combination in purpose, and I would be interested in knowing if there are any steps contemplated in meeting that particular problem in the way that the children are treated in the courts.

April 9, 1976 2209 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. AXWORTHY cont'

d) I also would like to raise with the Minister the further problems which perhaps he can just, I won't say give his own personal opinion, but an issue which I know is always a delicate one, and that is the balance between maintaining children in the home and the taking of custody by the Children's Aid Society or by the Director of Child Welfare.

It came to my own attention I guess in a very dramatic way last summer when I was doing work with the Police Commission on problems in the core area, and spent too many nights, I guess, in the Main Street strip area, and found to my dismay that at very very late hours of the evening, one or two o'clock in the morning, there would be literally dozens of young children roaming the streets at that particular time, oftentimes without apparently any custody of either parents or workers, and when asking the police about it and asking for their direction, they simply said, first, it was almost impossible to get someone in the child caring field to respond about that time of night; and secondly, oftentimes when the responses were made, it was done on the basis that they would simply take the child back into the family unit and say, you know ••• there next time.

It seemed to me that that was. an awfully unhealthy situation, frankly, for a bunch of young kids to be hanging outside a bunch of hotel beer parlors at that time of night without any seeming care. I know that the Member from Point Douglas has suggested a curfew is the answer, but I don't think it was the answer in that case at all.

I'm wondering if that problem of the treatment of children in an area like the core area where there seems to be a large number of children who are derelicted really in a sense, or abandoned, at least for temporary periods, whether that balance ••• the child care agency I know wants to keep people in the home and the family unit together, but it seems to me it's a kind of almost a losing battle, or a battle that was really prejudi cial to the interest of the kids in this case, whether the department is looking at that problem and has any kind of guidelines or any really instruction that can be given that would govern the activity of the child care workers in that area, first to ensure that there is almost a 24-hour type service so that when the major problems occur again after the normal working hours, that there are people there to respond to the problems in an immediate way as opposed to waiting,, till you know, work starts again at nine o'clock the next morning; and secondly, whether in fact there are ways in which we could be a little bit more careful about the way in which we deal with the children - and I know the prob lem backs up, but if you don't want to take a kid out of a family there's no place to go, and if you have to throw him inthe Treatment Centre it doesn't help much, in those kinds of concerns and I know that there is a continuum of problems.

By the visible evidence that is in front of me, it was disturbing to see, it obviously meant that there was somehow a breakdown in the system that we've established in the Child Welfare Act and in the various speeches and proclamations that have been made in this House, and I guess on the part of the social agencies, to what degree can we really address that particular problem of children who really are abandoned and neglected, because I think the evidence was pretty apparent that there are a number who are. MR. DESJARDINS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, this last speech could have been made 50 years ago, 10 years ago, last year, it'll be made next year, in 10 years, no matter what we try, we've got to keep on doing as much as possible but as long as we 're dealing with mortals there is no way that we can be gullible enough to think that all these things will go away. This will stay with us; we can improve the situation, and then we have to be careful, we 're not run ning a police state, I think that the majority of this House anyways •• • this business of the curfew.

It is very diff icult also to have outsiders, social workers, and so on •• • !don't like the term that was used, be more careful; we are as careful as we can, we'll make mistakes; itis a very very difficult decision, and it is not something that can be done very easy. No matter what I think that if there is any doubt you will certainly leave the children with their families. Society has different ideas, and so on. There is a diff erent pattern of living and this is very very difficult. So the last thing that we want to do, the last thing that we want to do is take the children away from their families.

We are not always dealing with just families that can give them a two car garage - I'm not suggesting that my friend is suggesting that - but I want to make a point that if you go into certain slum areas of any city, any country, you will find such

2210 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY- HEALTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ••••• a thing as that, certainly children that will be ne glected, but you can't legislate goodness and the government cannot take care of all the ills of society. This is something that society has to take care of themselves, now. There's two things that can happen if there is no hope at all then you are going to remove the child from the family and he becomes a permanent ward of the state, of the agencies, and so on. This is the last thing we want to do.

Then there might be times when we've removed the child temporarily from the family, and this we do, we do quite a bit of that, and then we work with the child, but mostly with the family to see what the reason is, and so on, and you find all kinds of reasons. So, you know, I certainly agree with everything that was said but I also feel that it is impossible to solve all these things. We can only try - we can only try to improve the situation. This is what we're doing. We have people on call now, the police, the emergency number, where someone will contact these people.

I personally am not satisfied, and people on our staff are not satisfied with that. We intend to bring in a recommendation to try to have policy, to try a staff man-year where we have a staff that will work. We certainly will not have a staff of 24 hours a day for all these problems, but we should have a skeleton staff. We think that we would like to have a few social workers, for instance, that would be trained, that would know where the help could come, talk to those people that might be on call also. So this is something.

I don't know if this will be approved, if we'll be able to make thts stick as one of our priorities, but this is something that we are looking at at the present time to have somebody availa ble to at lea st look at the emergency case during the night because many of those happen during the night. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I think the last indication by the Minister is one step that could be taken. I don't agree with him that it's a sort of helpless proposi tion as he seems to indicate. I think that you almost seem to be advocating a position of benign neglect somehow.

I think that it is not true again that perhaps the speech could be made the same way 50 years ago or ten years ago. I think that what is taking place in the core area of Winnipeg is quite diff erent from what was taking place five or ten or fifteen years ago, There's always been poor people, there's always been families with trouble, but the fact of the matter is that there's just far more of them now, coming oftentimes from a very diff erent cultural context.

The problems in the core area are much more severe and much deeper and much more abusive and there's just far more of it, so that where perhaps we could get by with the traditional methods in the past, I think that the scope of the economic and social deprivation that is now being experienced, not just in the old traditional core area, the strip around Main street, but in a much wider orbit, does require something more than just the saying, well, that's the way it's always been, the poor have always been with us and that we'll do our best and leave it.

I guess what I'm saying is that it seems to me that because of the numbers that are there that the problem has expanded in scope, and that as a result suggesting that the department itself undertake something of a special program in the core area dealing with the problems of children and doing more than just maybe a 24-hour service, I guess, in terms of other kinds of solutions would be the availability of day care centres that might be operating on a round the clock basis, at least to provide some place for the children to go rather than sort of hanging on the corner of McDermot and Main, which is not particularly healthy, and it's not one or two, it's many of them that they are --(Interjec- tion) -- We'll look at the results. -- (Interjection) -- We'll look at the results of that.

We're perpetuating continual CFI's if we allow these things to happen. Mr. Chairman, the point I'm trying to make is that the -- (Interjection) -- Well, in fact you could almost pick any corner in that area, and many others besides, that the urgency that was experienced in that area has been expressed by many of the community organizations who reside in the area, pointing out that the problem of children is almost the number one concern, that they're not being looked at and the problem is expanding and developing.

Again it would seem that rather than just again doing the conventional kinds of things that it may require something more than that, it may require an effort to see if we can mobilize the resources and team people up to find out what could be done. And, you know, I guess frankly I just find the sort of philosophy that somehow_, well, those are the way things are and that's the way things are going to be and that we'll

April 9, 1976 2211 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • • • • • sort of kind of keep plodding along and doing what we've always been doing, is not really the answer to the conditions in that area. -- (Inter jection) -- Well, I think that aside from the fact the Minister said he might find a social worker or two to put there on a 24-hour phone call is not really what I would consider to be an adequate answer.

I think that you have to go an awful lot beyond that and the problems dictate that, and they realize it, and I frankly would say I don't think it has been a priority in terms of either money, resources, or attention.

I think that there has been a little bit of a blase reaction to it because I guess we've become accustomed to assuming that life will go on in the core area1as long as it doesn't bother us too much, we won't bother it, and I just simply think that if the government, and I've said it before, is as prepared as it seems to be to mobilize millions of dollars, $40 million for physical reconstruction, that it might be able to muster a little bit for the human reconstruction in that area, the problems of people in the area, not the problems of buildings, And which I say I think is always a kind of upside down sort of prioririty, but be that as it may, it would seem at least there should be a balance in priorities, and that one of the real critical areas is the area of the problem. with children.

It has an awful lot to do with the administration of the Child Welfare Act, of the services and facilities that are available for children in that area, and some understanding about how they can combine the work of police departments and social agencies, and others, who are attempting to face the problem, to get a more satisfactory answer than the one that is there now. · MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, again, my friend is trying to misrepresent the words that I have said, the statement that I have made.

He did acknowledge himself that I said that it is a difficult situation) that we 're going to do our best, but he's not pleased with that. Well I can't do any better than my best. I don't know who can. Now my friend all of a sudden discovered that there were problems, he worked with the police last year, and so on. I'm saying that these problems are there, maybe if more of us would go around we'd find out that these problems existed before. Yesterday, I'm told we 're trying to take over from the agencies. There are many many services out there that are given out by the agencies.

And now we 're told that maybe we should do that. Yesterday, we're told, well don't you butt in, the agencies are doing it. I did state that we formed a committee, that I did. 1 stated yesterday and again this morning, that there are more problems in this area, in the core area, and that we have started with a com mittee discussing with the Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg, that we have recognized some of these problems, to try to co -ordinate that.

I also stated that we recognized there's been some problems in some areas, in some of the homes that we have; that we lack the standards, I've admitted all that, the weakness that we had. I also admitted that we had a very poor system of selecting homes because we were taking the first bed, and if it was a $40 bed, fine, if that was the one it didn't matter if it fitted a kid that needed a $12 bed. I recognize all that.

I did state that we're going to try to have somebody work during the night, that this is another thing that we have, but I also want my honourable friend to remember - you know, all of a sudden we're talking. about the core of Winnipeg because we see dirty kids running around and I say that these problems are not maybe quite as obvious but the problem exists in Fort Rouge, in St.

Boniface, and in Tuxedo also, and everything is supposed to be all right because you have a family that might be getting $30,000, $40,000, and so on, and a two or three car garage, but they're not giving the children the love that they can, and I'm saying that a lot of these poor kids and a lot of these kids from the north-end and the areas are receiving much more love. So there is no way that we're going to turn all of a sudden, become a police state, that we're going to try to rectify everything and start sending inspectors around and take kids away from their family.

We 're going to do the best we can and that's all we can do. We 're going to try to co-ordinate, we're working with the Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg, we're going to try to co-ordinate the service and there's many services and it's costing the province and the taxpayer of Manitoba a hell of a lot of money. We 're going to try to get better return for our money. I admit that, there's a lot of weakness. This is one place that we're very weak. This is why we commissioned Dr. Ryant to prepare this report. We're moving in this

2212 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) • • • • • direction and we're very vulnerable in that, I'll admit it, but let's not be too naive also if all of a sudden we were exposed, some of us maybe for the first time, to some of the problems in the north-end. Sure, they're grow ing. The society is changing, society is much more permissive. There's a lot of things that are changing, and I don't think that the government •••• Gee, not too long ago, I was told with these damned socialists, and so on, they start from the cradle to the grave and they want to control everybody's lives.

And I say, fine, I'll repeat what I said, and that doesn't mean that I'm not interested. I'll repeat, we'll do everything we can, we'll try to co-ordinate this, we'll try to get more for our money, but I'm saying, I repeat, that the same speech that the honourable friend made just a few minutes ago, he'll probably be able to do it in 50 years, to repeat that speech in 50·years now be cause we're dealing with mortals and there's no perfection on this earth. That doesn't mean that I'm not inte rested in trying to reach perfection.

But I don't want to be brou!Pt in on the carpet next year and say okay, we still have problems, because we'll have pro blems. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister at times seems to be a little bit defensive about what he's doing and what he's not doing. Let's go over some points: First, I'm not saying that he's not trying to do his best but I think that sometimes there's a conmx:mplace problem of spinning your wheels and that you can be exerting all your energy and intellect and resources and not get anything for it because it's not being done in the right way.

I think that that's the kind .of question we're trying to pose to him, is to what degree are we attempting to do more than the conventional kinds of patchwork in the core area? And by the way, I'd like to inform the Minister because he obviously doesn't take a look at the electoral maps too often, the constituency of Fort Rouge in cludes a good part of the core area. Now as a result, I think it's not just a --(Inter jection)--! was talking about parts of my constituency which include Main Street. And so, Mr.

Chairman, I think that the Minister tends to be a little too quick to run off and sort of veer off in a direction of defending his planning as opposed to trying to take the problem seriously. Let's go back on the thing we're saying. First he says, I don't want to intimi date the private agencies. And I agree. We raised that point with him last night. Well I would quote to him, if I might, from the Ryant Report. He asked for evidence last night about what I was saying. I'll quote to him from his own report if I may, Mr.

Chairman.-- (Interjection) -- Well report written for his department, independent source, an individual who's held obviously in the esteem of the department. He said: "In essence despite attempts to in·fluence the department, the delegate agency," that is the private agencies, ''bear a set of responsibilities for government unde r provisions which are determined unilaterally by the government." That's the word unilaterally, Mr. Chairman.

It said, "As a result that the agencies are not able to fulf ill, is that the department appears unaware that it has made it virtually impossible for the delegate agencies to realize the full benefits of their private status." Now, Mr. Chairman, that's what I was saying last night, that the thing isn't working. And all I'm simply saying is okay, let's first identify that there are special kinds of need in that area, needs that I don't think have been recognized by this government frankly, needs in educa tion, in police work, in housing • • • MR.

CHAIRMAN: Will the member please not hold his hand on the microphone because when you do so you make a noise in the recorder and you're not going to be heard so that the staff cannot record it. MR . AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, Friday afternoon gets to be a long day and I just need a little support. Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is that if the Minister thinks that he can sort of say, look, let's all recognize here that it's always going to be with us and that 50 years from now we can make the same speech, I would be very disturbed, Mr.

Chair man, if I felt that that was the sum of the purpose of this government is to simply say that 50 years from now we'll be dealing with that same problem. I would hope that we would be able in terms of the abilities that this community has to make some improvements in that area and to make some changes so that in 50 years we're not dealing with the

April 9, 1976 2213 SUPPLY- HEALTH (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• same problem. Because the fact of the matter is that I don't want to be making the same speech 50 years from now. I think it would be a deplorable circumstance if we had to be saying that the same problems exist and we haven't been able to find the ways of solving them by that time. In fact, Mr. Chairman, I'd be disturbed if we had to make the same speech next year or five years from now. I agree that the problems are serious.

And the point I'm trying to make to the Minister is that it's not that they're the same, they're growing, they're developing, it's spreading out. There's far more people in deprived circumstances, far more children who need care, a much greater need for an integrated approach that brings together the ability of integrating problems of education and child care and everything else in a program. And I'm saying it's not there now. It is not there.

The only thing this government has done is we're going in and building court houses and Autopac buildings, and other than that we're letting the same kind of agencies work the same way, we give them their money year after year. We're simply saying, as I said last night, it is a responsibility of gov ernment to provide some leadership, take some initiatives, and to do some proper planning in concert with them, and to orchestrate those activities. That's the kind of intervention that the government can do.

But not simply say, we're going to hold a couple of meetings, we 're going to sort of talk about it a little bit more. I'm simply saying that perhaps the point that the Minister should be acknowledging - if he's prepared to - is that it's not something that you can simply pass by and say, families have trouble and there's nothing we can do to legislate morality.

We are saying that there are conditions that we can legislate in there, whether it's closing of beer parlours, making sure that there is proper care facilities for children in the area, and an educational system that works in that area, unlike the one now that doesn't work. That's the kind of address and perhaps the Department of Health and Social Development should be taking the initiative with the rest of the department and pooling their resources together to do a real major kind of operation in that core area. And I don't care what he wants to do with them. If he wants to be smart-alecky about it, fine.

But I'm trying to address a serious question, that the problems in that area require more than we 're doing now. I assume that it's the Minister's responsibility because in the field of Health and Social Development that seems to cover a major proportion of the problems that are arising in there. The populations are expanding, there are far more people in desperate straits - the income levels by the way, Mr.

Chairman, are not the same, that the dis parity between the incomes of the people who live in the core area and those who live in the suburbs has grown wider in the past 10 years, notgot smaller, it's grown wider. And that simply means that the problem is growing worse. And all I'm trying to suggest is that the traditional conventional approaches no longer work.

I simply want to say, is the Minister prepared now or in the near future to pull together as part of his mandate the combined resources of the provincial and other governments and agencies to do a major kind of program in that area that will deal with all these problems in a combined way. Now I don't see why that necessarily requires sort of a response that says, we're going to be dealing with it the same way 50 years from now. I would hope that we would be able in this House at least to mobilize enough kind of support to back up the Minister if he decided he wanted to do something in a major way in that area.

I don't think we can let the problem just roll on the way it has been. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58(c)(1). The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Yes, I wanted to kind of agree with the Minister on the ••• The reason I voted against the curfew by-law was I did feel though of course that the Minister could indicate some further tightening up under The Child Welfare Act, which to me seems to be the source. I don't think legally we can go into a Main Street project to go around snatching children from parents who may be sitting in the beer parlour, and that.

I think there would be certainly a black eye on any government that was in power if they got into that type of a program. I think the emphasis has to be .on bringing the parents to some form of justice or bringing home the seriousness of the possibility of taking these children away from them.

2214 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. WILSON cont'd) ••••• However, the reason I rise at this time under this

section is I felt that I didn't deal properly with the group care thing, and the Minister talked about better return for our money. So I thought I might possibly assist him in that if he would note that children that return to their homes, that under the former administration there was a 55 percent increase in the number of children in 1969 returned to their homes. And since that time in 1969-74, only 15 percent, and as of this year, 1975, there's actually a decrease in the number of children that have been returned to their homes.

One has to draw the con clusion that there's either more problems in the homes or that we are entering into an acceleration in taking the chiWren and placing them in group homes. The indication here seems to be there's an 1, 893 percent increase since 1964 in this group home program .

I did want to read into the record if I could, in the home I referred to it says: "This 2! storey buiWing at 162 Arlington is occupied as a group foster home; eight girls and foster parents reside there . 11 Well I've met the foster parents but when you turn to this other thing it says, ''162 Arlington, eight girls, operated by Bridgeman Foster Homes Limited, a probationary service by Children's Aid Society .

The home is owned by the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation . 11 So one obviously draws from the conclusion that the foster parents don't really live there unless one who is engaged in this industry, which the Minister talked about, has the option to farm out a foster parent for each individual home that comes under their management. So I am saying, who decides whether the foster parents that are in 162 Arlington, while the cheques are going to the Bridgeman organization, they in turn are hiring out people to run these particular homes in my area that I'm talking about.

And so therefore maybe that explains why there's a decrease in the number of placement requests from 812 down to 600. It may not necessarily mean that the per diem rate is not high enough, it may mean very well that it's very attractive . But it may mean that more people are getting into the business because a possibility that maybe, as I alluded to before, I have no quarrel with it, but have people been making money out of this program .

And then maybe the question that I fel t, if the Minister felt that the per diem rate was a little high, would he agree with my suggestion that maybe an educational program and some emphasis on pleading with the general public that they have a responsi bility to help some of these less for tunate children and maybe we could, like the report says, in 1975, there was a volunteer service and recruitments and assignments were basically nil.

This year they're 136 and 125, which indicates that if some outside organi zation or government puts on an educational program, you know, appeals to the public to do their responsibility and if they are getting some remuneration for it, maybe we could take the child care program out of the business concept and back into where it was intended to put these children into a family setting.

So what I'm basically saying that on one hand you have it appearing as if it's a reasonably large business, and on the other hand you have this type of a home where at 234 Sherburn, there's five boys, the staff consists of five social workers, a night watch man and a cook to look afte r five boys. So my question there is, you have.) on one extreme children who have, I suspect, limited supervision under homes that are maybe not so highly maintained as you have on the other extreme at 234 Sherburn five social workers, a night watchman and a cook entertaining these five boys at this address .

So I am saying, it seems to me that the Minister asked for better ways to return, you know, better return for our money and possibly priorit ies; I am saying that I would agree that his department at $395 million is one department that must certainly be a chore in itself to try to keep track of what's going on. But I would like him to examine those two areas . MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58(c) . The Honourable Member for Rock Lake . MR . EINARSON: Well, Mr .

Chairman, the Member for Wolseley makes a com ment here about one institution where there are five boys in a home , and five social workers as a staff to look afte r these five boys. To me, Mr . Chairman, this is incred ible! I would sure like to get an answer from the Minister . He talks about trying to do his best, he talks about trying to save the taxpayers money. You know, how old are these boys? And why, I would like an explanation

April 9, 1976 2215 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. EINARSON cont'd) • • • • • why we need five social workers to look after five boys. Now from the comments that the Member for Wolseley has made ••• Well, Mr . Chair man, I'm wondering what kind of an institution is this when I hear a staff equalling the number of boys that are in this place. I'd like an answer, Mr. Chairman, this is ridiculous • MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: These people are very interested in repetition.

I'll state again for my honourable friend, that I said that we realize that there are some people in there that are trying to fill the gap because there is a need. There are some that are doing good work and others that are in there to try to make a few bucks. I stated that we are discussing all these problems. We realize there's more problems in the core area, therefore that is why we started, we selected the Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg to start discussing . We have a committee with them to discuss all these problems that were referred to by the Member from Fort Rouge and the last speaker.

I also said that there are some areas that the per diem rates we really frankly do not !mow. I admit all that, I don't !mow what else you want. If you want blood, I can't give you blood . I am telling you that we realize that there's some areas that we don't even !mow what we're getting for our money, that we're establishing this office to set up standards, rates, and so on . Now I doubt if what my honourable friend, the state ment that he made, there's five social workers for five people.

Then if that is the case I'd like to have this information and I'd like him to give me the particulars and we'll check into it . I can't add any more than what I've said . I recognize you're right, and so is the Member for Fort Rouge, there's a helluva lot of problems. And we're doing everything we can to rectify these problems . And I am so sorry that I said that it's going to be diff icult that in five years we'll still have problems. Maybe they'll be changed, or in 50 years we'll still have problems, but that's my opinion and I repeat that. It doesn't mean we're not going to try.

Now these people wanted a chance to get it off their chest and I'm letting them. But I'm not going to stand up every two minutes and comment, I've repeated the same thing five times • MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58(c)(1) . The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (St. Johns): Mr . Chairman, I've been listening to the debate this afterno on with some interest.

I harken back to last night's debate, was it, when the Member for Fort Garry commented about the need for a diff erent and extended service in the field of dealing with emotionally disturbed children, and spoke about some organization which he believes wishes to be formed to deal with that kind of a child to which he says there is no service available in Manitoba. Now he described a situation that was extremely serious, that needs a great deal of intensive work, in-depth work done with children, and I'm aware of what he was talking about.

I don't even !mow if a province the size of Manitoba could afford to maintain the kind of institutions that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry described, but there is no question about the need of it . Now for the Member for Rock Lake to stand up and say, this is ridiculous, five boys, five social workers, is ridiculous in itself to make a comment without !mowing the nature of the problem that is being dealt with in that home.

I don't !mow a thing about that home, but I know enough that there are problems that exist where you could have one staff person for 30 children, you could have one staff person per maybe 100 children if they're all of the calibre of people such as the Member for Rock Lake no doubt, or you can have a case where you may need one staff person for every individual problem of a child . And to just in a blanket way say, this is ridiculous in itself indicates that he was prepared to judge without !mowing .

Now the Minister rather than judge immediately said, yes, yes, I know there are problems, and I am happy to !mow that the Minister and his department are working in this very field to try and assist in coping with these problems • I would not say in mend ing or curing these problems because I do agree that problems of emotionally disturbed children, problems that result from broken homes, problems that result from poverty, problems that result from so many aspects of society are problems that will be with us

2216 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) • • • • .always. And the Member for Fort Rouge is blinding himse1! with his own oratory to say as he did just earlier this afternoon that it is worse today than it was before • That's nonsense. Well he's a young fellow . I'll have to say that for him. He 's shaking his head that he didn't say it, and I guess maybe it's worth the exercise to go back to Hansard when it's published. But I believe that he said that things are worse today than they were . Now, Mr. Chairman • •.• MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge on a point of privilege . MR.

AXWORTHY: I did not say things were worse, I said that in terms of the income levels of people in the core area there' s a larger disparity than there was ten year's ago. That's the exact statement that I made . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member is correct ••• MR.' CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please . I said this morning and I'm going to repeat again, I'm going to repeat for the recorder because we have a different recorder this afte rnoon, nobody, but nobody is going to be recorded unless the Chair recognizes them. The Honourable Member for St. Jolms . MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr .

Chairman, whether the recorder recognizes the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge or not, I heard him make a statement that he said that the disparity is greater than it was. Of course he did say that, but he may not have •. - been listening to all the other things he said, and amongst other things that he said, I ' believe he said that the situation is worse today than it was bef ore, and I can't contemplate the possibility that in 50 years from now there will not be anything better . Mr. Chairman, there have been improvements from year to year during the regimes of various governments.

Nobody, to my mind, actually questions the sincerity of any of the governments of years gone by in their efforts to deal with the problems that are on the Order Paper at the moment. But to pretend that there's not enough done be cause it's going to continue as a problem is to really expect Utopia and the millennium to come all at the same time, and within this year, because .the Member for Fort Rouge is hoping that next year there will not be this kind of debate. Mr.

Chairman, it is naive to say the least, and it does not help to deal with this problem in a rational way to expect blanket improvements such as he described, and for him to waive aside efforts that are being made at this time as being the construction of an Autopac building, and some other nonsensical example he gave, is denying the question. And he is saying I am doing that when he ought to know that for year af ter year we are listening to reports of progress, and I note progress, he doesn't because he doesn't want to .

But there are changes that are taking place and we are finding a backlash amongst more conservative members of our society who are saying there's too much being done . Welfare bums. There 's too much of an effort being made, on those people who should be helping themselv es . Well, it is very diff icult to be exactly right even in your own eyes, much less in the eyes of others. But I would say that in this area that we are discussing now, there is much more that has to · be done . I am encouraged by the fact that the Minister has not made an effort to say we are going gloriously ahead with a great program.

I am encouraged by the fac t that he, and that means his department, recognizes inadequacies in the program. I think that that is proinismg. That in acknowledging - that's the first important step in evaluating any program, is to · acknowledge a situation and work from there. I am looking forward to further reports, further debates on Estimates in this field where we will be questioning further the extent that work is being done . I am hoping that the Minister will be able to answer the question raised by the Member for Rock Lake in a more direct way, to try and find out why the situation exists.

I know that there was just a discussion ha1! an hour earlier, I don't know if the Member for Rock Lake was here when it was talked about) 24 hour service. And I know that if you divide 24 hours into a decent working day, you're bound to have more than one person per job. You've got to have at least three people occupying one 24-hour day. And there are children - he may not know it - but there are children that need constant supervision. So that one should not just in a blanket way say this is - I think that his term was 'ridiculous � It may be that there's some overstaff ing. What concerns me more is the point

April 9, 1976 2217 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) • • • • • raised by the Member for Wolseley where he talked about the private enterprise being involved in this very field of care of emotionally disturbed or children who come under the Children's Aid and require foster homes . I deplore the fact that people are required because of the need for homes to bec ome avail able on a profit basis . I don't like it.

I don't know whether other members agree with that, but I would like to see institutions that are operated by non-profit , charitable organi zations, and I say that the more they rely on government to pay the per diems, and pay the capital costs, as we discussed yesterday, the more there becomes the dange r of a distortion in priorities. And I think that that's the other important aspect.

Number one, I don't think there should be a profit motive ilwolved in the care of children, because you can go back to the days that Dickens described to us when you talk about the handling of children with a profit motive ilwolved, and I'm not suggesting anybody in today's society is comparable to Dickens, although I must tell the Member for Fort Rouge that maybe he ought to go back and read Dickens to reassure himself that there have been some improve ments in the time since then .

But I do feel that we have to take the profit motive out of that very field , that very effort of dealing with disturbed children, with children that require special kinds of care . Having done that, we have to in some way get all the voluntary help that we can get, but remember this, there is a move now more and more for people to demand the recognition of the service they give voluntarily. And that is related to the fac t that they are demanding more and more money to come through tax sources . And I'm not critical of that either.

But people are more and more, society is saying, never mind relying on the goodwill of somebody else to support one or another endeavour, let's make sure that this is properly handled, properly organized on the tax dollars, so that the burden of handling this is distributed in an equitable manner on the ability-to-payprinciple. Those words are words that we use in the NDP all the time but they are not unique to the NDP . These are words that came about and programs that were developed by Liberal governments, by Conservative governmen ts, and by all three parties.

But as government becomes more in volved in the financing of institutions, so does there take place a distor tion in priorities as amongst the voluntary agencies that are promoting one or another type of service, be it people who are dealing with�Mr. Chairman, I know that the next sentence I'll be out of order but I promise to come right back again ·d ealing with the matter of special care for especially emotionally disturbed children we discussed yester day, or be it for the care of the research and the cure of cancer, or be it for Red Cross, or be it for the Art Gallery or be it for any cultural institution.

And now I'm right back on the subject by saying that those priorities in the past were set by society because voluntary effort and volunteer money determine the extent to which any one of these various kinds of community services would receive the support of the community . A good fund raiser, a wealthy person, could redirect the service of a community into any one of the fields I've already discussed. But now that· govern ment is being required more and more to participate in the funding so government must establish certain priorities.

And these priorities may well include such an organization as described by the Member for Fort Garry yesterday, or may be lower in the set of demanding priorities such as the concern about children who are on that grand corner of McDermot and Main where I earned a living for many years of my life , these are priori ties that have to be established. I've discussed the profit motive involved, I've discussed the volunteers, but in the end, it may well have to come to the stage that is regrettable, I think, but it may be there, where the volun teers themselves will start pulling back and withdrawing .

I think that's regrettable because I place a great deal of reliance on the sincerity and good motivation by so many people who are giving of their time and effort throughout their lives for various causes . But there is that problem, that society is changing and that people are no longer being that much motivated to give of themselves freely as they have in the past; and we have to find that proper blending, and that was referred to also yesterday, when the social audit commented about the fact that you have to conserve all the energies, be they financial , be they material, be they of a spiritual motivated kind.

We have to work towards that and I think we have a long way to go and

2218 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) ••••• I don't think it's going to be mended in the next few years. It isn't , it can't be, because as matters change, so do problems change in nature or in description, but they are still there and will be for years to come .

So that I conclude by saying that I am pleased that the Department and the Minis ter recognize the need for a greater control, a greater grasp of the problems so that they could better cope with the immense demands that are being seen and recognized and will be able to deal better with them, bearing in mind that the burden on the taxpayer is great, the demand for the service is probably greater than ever before , people are re cognizing more than ever that there is a need for society to deal with problems that were ignored in the past, and like it or not, under a democracy, society, dealing with a problem today, means turning to government to solve the problems, to deal with the problems .

I think that on all sides of this House we have to be careful and concern our selves with how government can supply the service which people demand and which becomes apparent to us, where years back they were swept under the carpet and were not even visible to so many of the people who formed the community and who blinded them selves to what was around the corner and behind a building or behind a school . We 're seeing more and more of the need, and maybe to that extent we have to be more and more alert to having to deal with it.

I'm happy that the Minister agrees that the problem is one that is continuing and is one which deserves much greater attention and I would hope that more and more do we become involved in the evaluation process to make sure especially that the organizations that are being formed that are just mushrooming around us, are providing a service which is better related to the costs involved and comparatively is an improvement over that, than it was before .

I think the evaluation process is probably the most essential part of it, so that there will not be the kind of disparities that appear to have taken place as described by the Member for Wolseley, but which of course are not necessarily there be cause they are isolated examples that could be two altogether diff erent problems and yet the same kind of statistic might have applied. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable Member from Rock Lake was shocked a minute ago because I didn't jump up and make a comment and agree with my honourable friend that this was a very bad situation at 234 Sherburn. I think that this would be very dangerous to jump up when you hear one side of the story and make a comment that you might regret later on. And now I happen to have a little more informa tion on this. I think that it will show, I hope, an example of, you don't just read some thing like this and underline the word that you want, 234 Sherburn, fiv e boys, five social workers and so on.

There's more to it than that . First of all, the home is run by the Manitoba Community Treatment Association, which is a non-profit organization. Now it is true there's a staff of five . We are dealing with people that have very severe problems. There are some of these kids that are sent in from probation also, not only our kids. They are extremely serious, they are aggres sive and anti-social, and that's 24 hours around the clock, so that means 1-2/3 staff . Now I'd like my honourable friend to look again, and to think if that is so absurd, once you find out what the details are, is this so absured. And Mr .

Chairman, yesterday, and even today, it's even worse . Trying to give you an idea of what, standing in this seat, the advice and the criticism that I have, first of all, we were trying to take away from the agencies , then maybe we should take away from the agencies and do more because that's our responsibility. We've been saying that we've been spending too much money on the per diem rate and that we 're not doing enough.

We are told also that we should be trying to keep these kids, trying to do something for these kids, not let them go to the Youth Centre and so on, and if we have a facility such as that, we're being criticized. Maybe there should be a huddle of the people on the other side and then they can come in and give some advice, that right now I'm going around like a chicken with his head cut off, I'm writing this on some advice and then I'm taking another piece of paper and then you know, nobody agrees. I think that this should indicate that it is a very serious problem and we recognize

April 9, 1976 2219 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) •• ••• that. We recognize that we can do more and we intend to do more . But it is not an easy solution and it is very dangerous to bring in a report and to single something out and say, okay, these are the abuses.

No doubt, no doubt that there are abuses and this is what we're trying to minimize as much as possible, by saying that we 're going to • • • we want to bring in standards, we want to bring in the rate where we will have the proper care for the proper children, you can't send kids like we have ••• Sure we can compare this for another kid, that everybody is well behaved and they just have no parents so they'll have foster parents and maybe there's two or three who don't need parents and I suppose I'll be told, well this is a great success, but look at this, look at what you 're doing at Sherburn Street.

Five people to take care of five people around the clock. So I'm saying that we're told after that, well, listen to the experts, listen to the experts, what they're telling us, and then when we do that, well , what is the govern ment trying to do . The government is trying to run everybody 's lives and so on. And then I don't know, I've been chastized because I daren't say that we'll have the same, maybe not the same problems, but we'll have problems when we 're dealing with humans and we 'll have slums and so on . I'm practically chastized when I say that. But I'm a little afraid of the things I hear.

It's practically like we 're going to have the master race all over again, where we 're going to go out and send people in every home and pull kids because maybe the parents are not perfect. You know, there's no way that any government can set themselves up as judge on all these things and start deciding and bringing laws that will determine that these children should be taken away from their parents. It is a very delicate thing and I don't want to be in that position. I say that we 're going to do our utmost to leave the kids with their family .

And that doesn't mean that there will be a minimum set, that they've got to have so much money and so on. They might be damn poor . But they might be very, very happy and rich in love, and that's important also, Mr . Chairman . There 's many factors that we have to look at, and if we have to take the children away, we will start first of all and try to do it for a limited period of time where we can work with the people to see what the problems are . And it's not all money, sure money is a big problem, We're talking about closing beer parlours and so on . Well, we had discussions on this before .

My responsibility now is to run the Department of Health and Social Development and I don't make the rules on drinking and so on. There were free votes on this . You know, we let the kids 18 years old go and drink . We did that. Sure . So if we try to check people we're told, well, you know, my friend was saying, well what about the liberty, the freedom of this, what are you telling these people? Not too long ago, a few days ago, I was questioned what are you doing for the people on welfare, what about their rights, you know, what the hell, you can't win.

I'd like somebody to tell me what you want and then maybe we'll try to do it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr . Chairman, the hour is approaching that nice time in the end of the week where I want to deliver myself or relieve myself of a few com ments on this matter that has been interesting to say the least.

And I also acknowledge having been a member in this Chamber for some time that at this time of the day in the week that one is fairly safe to say whatever one really wants to · say without being duly noted by the members of the Fourth Estate, they have had their columns in for the day and for the week and really, we 're in a bit of a private club right now . I sympathize with the Minister's remarks and his concerns and the problems that he faces in this particular aspect of his department, Child and Family Services .

The fact that we'r e dealing with a budget item involving some $18 million, which I think is a reflection of our society as we move along; the fact that that budget was less five years ago or much less ten years ago, is of little consequence . The problems that this particular aspect of his department is involved with, were there 10, 15, 20 years ago. Mr.

Chairman, I, as a rule do not believe that individual members should call on personal experiences or backgrounds in their debates in this session, but I'll break that rule on this occasion, and indicate to the Minister that I am a product of that core area, very much so . Throughout my formative years, I and my family were bounced

2220 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. ENNS cont 'd) ••• •• around as tenants in various rented quarters, usually alternating between the streets of Pacific Avenue, Alexander Aven ue, Jarvis Aven ue, and then in 1942 when we hit Kate street, we !mew that we were coming up in the world, if you wanted to call it that. I don't !mow, I think some would argue in this House that I haven't advanc ed much since those times, but the thing that I want to indicate to the honoura ble minister, and I think he understands it, and he has in a round about way given us answe rs to these questions that perplex us.

There are of course, solutions to the problems with respect to this whole area of child care that perplexes our society at this time, but he !mows that I would be the first one to object to them, as much as he would object to them, and I'm referring to the kind of authoritarian solutions, the kind of heavy government handed action that would just overnig ht solve the problems. Mr.

Chairman, some other jurisdictions solve these problems in those ways and they don't have juvenile delin quents running around , they don 't have a great deal of problems of young children waiting outside of drinking places late hours of the night . We don't discuss the problems of whether or not we should have curfews in our jurisdictions or not . These things are simply solved by the heavy hand of a totalitarian government on a very authoritarian kind of an ap proach to this kind of a problem.

The Minister is not prepared this government to take that kind of action because I believe it is repugnant to them, as it is repugnant to us . So, Mr . Chairman, what do we do, and how do we sit in this Chamber and provide some leadership to the community at large whom we serve and for which purpose we have been elected to this Chamber, and how do we accept the fact that the Minister has indicated to us, that the problem was there ten years ago, it's here today, and he indicated to us that it will be there five years from now and ten years from now . Well, Mr .

Chairman, there are other solutions than those suggested to us by the Honourable Member for St. Johns who seemed to indicate to us, and I can understand that coming from the Honourable Member for St.

Johns, that his solution is at all times only ••• and he sees democracy in this light, that if there is a problem you turn to government , you turn to government, and we can expect under that kind of an approach - and it's certainly an approach that's likely the one that will be taken , likely the one that will be taken, likely the only one that will be acceptable in the broad spectrum of the public that we try to serve in this provin ce, because of our diverse natu re .

So that only means that the item now that is $18 million will be $20 million next year, will be $25 million some years hen ce, will be $30 million five years henc e, and we are, or other people like myself will be debating the same issue five years from now, or ten years from now . The Honourable Member for St. Johns says that that is the only possible alterna tive, to keep leaning on government and government sponsored agencies and government spons ored dollars and mone ys, either private or public, to help ameliorate, which is really the only word one can use, will not solve the problem.

The Minister has indicated to us, and I agree with him, we're not going to solve the problem in a free and open society that both he and I would like to see continue in this province . But, Mr . Chairman I'm not satisfied that while that may be the kind of alternative that is staring us in the fa ce, that we have done suff icient or that we have not been negligent in providing at least some of the time tested sources of meeting some of these problems that have been in force during the years past, and in my judgment could still be pretty effective .

I refer to the kind of fundamental things about which I think we should be discussing from time to time in this Chamber, as to where we as leaders of our community stand on providing leadership to our community on some pretty basic and fundamental aspects of philosophies of life , I mean, what have we been doing in this Chamber with respect to maintaining the Ju dao-Christian conc ept of family life ? As a Christian, I might have pretty narrow and pretty well defined solutions to the problem. You !mow, I may hone stly believe, and as a matter of fact, Mr.

Chairman, I do believe that if we as Christians looked at our responsibilities as set out in the scriptures, that we could resolve many of these problems Mr. Chairman, I recogniz e that we live in a multi-cultural society, including people of all walks of life , all races, of all creeds and religions , that that cann ot be done , But I ask, Mr . Chairman, what have we been doing legislatively, both in this Chamber and in the National Legislative Assemblies of this country in terms of reaching the family , . .

April 9, 1976 2221 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. ENNS cont'd) ••••• life , the family structure? What have we done with our tax laws that encourages family life , or discourages it ? What have we done, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the kind of instant State Aid solutions to the irresponsible parent who brings children into the world and then leaves them running around the streets of Main Street and McDermot Av enue, or Alexander, or Pacific Avenue, or anywhere, in Fort Rouge, or in Fort Garry, or indeed in Lakeside, -- (Interjection)--River Heights. Mr .

Chairman, it seems to me that sometimes we have diff erent agencies of government working at odds with each other in this respect. Mr . Chairman, quite frankly it's because we don't address ourselves, we don't address ourselves in this way. I don't know why, Mr. Chairman, perhaps we think that this is not the place to talk about these kinds of things. Mr.

Chairman, we find it possible in many other aspects - you know, if we're dealing about Agriculture, we can talk about what is right and what is the best way of producing a certain product, what is the best way of processing milk, for instance, we 've had lengthy debates on that subject, and we talk about building roads or highways in this province, we can discuss at great length the problems of whether a particular kind of construction method should be used, we talk about conservation methods, we talk about the advisability of draining sloughs, leaving wildlife habitat, all these kinds of things, but when we talk about the very human conditions, when we talk about the things that are meaningful in terms of, you know, which direction mankind wants to take - Mr .

Chairman, whether we like it or not we happen to be chosen, 57 men and women, only men at this particular stage, to provide that kind of leadership. More leadership, spiritual leadership, and practical leadership, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that we devote totally our time to the aspects of practical leadership, we spend a great deal of time in terms of political leadership, and we spend a great deal of time in fencing with each other in this Chamber, but we spend very little time, Mr.

Chairman, and I suspect that some of the diff iculties that we arrive at as we build block by block, whether it's a Liberal Government, or a Conservative Government, or a NDP Government, we spend little time in assessing the kind of building blocs that we are putting forward for man as a whole. I have to agree with the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development, that this particular appropriation will grow, will have to grow, because we cannot see inhumane treatment of our youngsters, of our children on our streets, in our villages, in our communities in the Province of Manitoba.

So we will exhort from the taxpaying public dollars, moneys, as we are exhorting now, $18, 000, 738 to look af ter this problem, but I see very little corresponding effort to somehow get at the kind of preventive care. Mr.

Chairman, even with a problem of alcohol, where we report, you know, and we derive profits exceeding $50 millions of dollars this year from the sale of alcohol in this province, we at least set aside certain moneys for Alcohol Education, for the Alcoholics Anonymous Foundation and so forth, to try to treat the abuse that that particular habit brings to some individual members of our society that are exposed to it. It seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that we have in our tremendous effort to be democratic, not to single out any particular recommended or accepted, you know, practiced means of social behaviour -a nd I'm referring to it right now, in terms of religious or on a cultural basis, that we 've kept our hands so far away from that. We have concerned oursel ves to a great extent about the kind of individual civil liberties of the person, and freedom , but, Mr .

Chairman, I suggest that the path that we 're on will ultimately lead to the kind of conclusions that the Minister and the Government have come to with respect to the funding of private agencies . They have said, fine , we see the need, we'll put in the dollars , but we want to safeguard our options on behalf of the public. Mr .

Chairman, as this amount grows, we will continue to help the child that needs the help, we will continue to help the Self-help groups that are working in this area, but the government will, the State will in an increasing way become the heavier hand in that child's upbringing, in that child's development, in that child's welf are, because the argument will be the same - we are af ter all protecting our equity, we are putting our dollars in there. So, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that we 're on some kind of a treadmill here, with which I have the greatest amount of sympathy for the

2222 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. ENNS cont'd) ••••• Minister. I really cannot offer to him a solution of the problem at this time, it would be presumptuous of me to say so, but I would like to hear from the government, I would like to hear from the Minister, and I think a lot of people in the Province of Manitoba would like to hear from our governments, would like to hear from all of us, in a non-partisan way, some rededication to some fundamental principles, some rededication to the family concept of life, and Mr. Chairman, one step furt her, I'd like to see it reflected in our welf are assistance laws.

Mr. Chairman, the honourable minister has this bit of a frown on his fa ce.

I realize I'm not being specific, but I suggest to the honourable minister that if he examines the kind of assistance programs in his own department, that there are instances, very specific instances, which go contrary to that concept which I just announced, that do not, that do not enhance the concept of family living, that enhance the concept of single parent for instance, and the state will provide the day care centre to look after children; that enhance the situation where it becomes, money wise, an advantage not to have a tradit ional married life situation for the family, where the welf are cheques combined coming in from two individuals is greater than it would be the other way round.

These are the kind of situations that I'm suggesting that we have allowed, I don't say with design, but we have allowed to bring into our systems, that do not enhance the kind of concepts that I am speaking about, and I say that that's a very practical lever, never mind the kind of other moral situations that I was speaking of a little while ago. Mr . Chairman, the appropriation before us, really and truly, Child and Family Services, is the extended hand, or the extended fi nger of our whole society, it portrays the ills of our society.

If that appropriation were to reduce, we would be able to tell whether or not we were doing most things right, and as it increases, we know that we are not doing too many things right and that we are getting ourselves • • • in terms of human conditions we're not improving it, that we are creating more problems than we're solving. Mr . Chairman, the weight of responsibility of this does not rest on the shoulders of this Minister or this government, because the same situation is around us in all jurisdictions . But, Mr .

Chairman, perhaps at 15 minutes after 4 on a Friday afternoon and having attended the funeral of a very fine supporter and long-time friend of mine, it puts me in this mood, perhaps a pessimistic one in that sense, because I see little hope or future for the kind of society that I would like to see for my children developing. I see only promise for a more impersonal, for a more computerized, for a more state controlled society. Mr . Chairman, I say this in a very gentle, soft way this afternoon, I am not even saying that you know, they're seizing this. It's just the direction that we're flowing .

It's just the direction that we're flowing . So, Mr .

Chairman, for the few moments this afternoon I don't mind placing on the record that I object to it, I don't think that the end result will provide for any greater happiness on the part of those futuristic children that will be living under that kind of a society or system, and I see in this appropriation the kind of future problems that we are going to be facing and having to deal with, and I get no comfort from the Minister of Health and Social Development when he candidly and honestly admits to us that the problems are going to be there fiv e years from now, perhaps only a little greater. Mr .

Chairman, by leave, I want to tell you just a little story, a little book that I read just the other day, but it has in a round about way some bearing on this subject matter . I can't even recall the author, I can't even recall the title, but it's one of those fut uristic books of ••• oh, it makes 1984 ancient, it's 2020, so I'm giving myself an extra 60 years that I didn't think I had . Where the society was such as I just described, so fully computerized, so fully charted, numbered and we were all digits on a computer tape. But there were still, Mr.

Chairman, a few people around that had managed to avoid the system. They were known as freelin gs. They were known as freelings . They habited at night the sewers of London, the tubes and the little shacks, they'd never been computerized. They didn't have a bunch of magnetic cards that you got into your apart ment with or got your pay cheque for, got your social allowances for, there were just a few of them that managed to avoid this huge big government entrapment. They were known as freelings . This was a situation world-wide by this time, except for one place,

April 9, 1976 2223 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. ENNS cont'd) ••••• and the Member for Rock Lake will be happy about this, the only place where this system hadn't been enfo rced yet, was Iceland. Iceland of all places . So this freeling having met another charming young freeling in the sewers of London somewhere as they hid away from the big system, they decided to try to escape and try to get away from the Isles to Iceland, which they had heard of, and somehow or other they managed it through all the bureaucratic tape that they had to get there, they got to Iceland and it was beautiful, they were in a fre eling society.

And quite a few freelings from other parts of the world had come there; it became an attraction, it became an attraction for these few outcasts in society that refus ed to be computerized. And one morning, Mr.

Chairman, this freeling from London was kind of sleeping late and heard this awful racket outside of his bedroom window, jackhammers tearing up concrete and everything else and he opens up the window and he says, ''what's happening, what's happening?" Oh, some workman said, ''Don't worry, don't worry, all we're doing is putting in some parking meters ." He said, "stop, stop, that's where it all started from . Parking meters , stop signs, stop and go signs, medicare, this, that, ••• " So, Mr. Chairman, that's where the ills of this kind of sadism starts with, I suppose, with parking meters • But, Mr .

Chairman, the fruits of it are when we have to, in this little province, in this little provinc e, we are today spending $18 million for the care of children whose parents ref use their responsibility. It will be $25 million next year, and sooner or later - in fac t, we the loyal opposition, will demand that the government use the heayy hand and bring about an authoritarian control over this kind of a situation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I rise, I return, I've got that old freeling, Mr . Chairman, I return to this debate momentarily, Mr .

Chairman, to agree in part with my colleague the Honourable Member for Lakeside and to disagree in part with him; to agree in part with the Honourable Member for St. Johns and to disagree in part with him; and to agree in part with the Honourable Minister of Health and to disagree in part. And if you don't think that's a diff icult feat at 4:21 on a Friday afternoon, Mr . Chairman, I can demonstrate in the next nine miillltes how difficult that is . I listened with great interest to the remarks of the Honourable Member for st.

Johns, and I think he identified a couple of serious and growing problems, and I don't think that he ascribed them to this government or necessarily to any government in particular; as I read his remarks, he was ascribing them to the trend in modern day western, or at least North American society.

He pointed up the growing dependency of the community on government to solve the kinds of problems that we are discussing on these appropriations, and he pointed up the growing reluctance of the individual volunteer to commit himself or herself to the kinds of programs that used to be undertaken by volunteers but now become much more deferred to government action and government prerogative • I think those are serious problems that we must address ourselves to if we 're to find any kind of ongoing method of at least keeping up with the problems in the health and social services sphere that fall under the aegis of a ministry such as this.

I put it to the Member for St. Johns, and I don't expect him to agree with me philosophi cally, but I think that there is a philosophical dichotomy here that is worth examining and which contains two positions, which both are deserving of respect . One is his position that he feels that it is undesirable to permit the profit motive to operate in the social service sphere unless absolutely necessary.

He would prefer not to see these things done by any individual or any agency that was motivated by profit or had an opportunity to reap a profit from any of these activities • He would prefer to see it done publicly by charitable non-profit organizations or by government, by government if by no ot her means, in order to keep the profit motive out of it. And I think that that is a valid and a responsible position, but I put it to the Member for St.

Johns that per haps in some of these situations it's not a bad idea to follow the lesser of two evils principles and if one is in a situation, if a society and a community is in a situation where such services are not going to be perf ormed or fulfilled by government, are not going to be, for various reasons and because of various constraints, all of which are irrele vant to the point at issue at the moment, are not going to be fu lfilled by volunteers or by charitable non-profit organizations, then perhaps it is better to turn a blind eye, if

2224 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ••••• that's the proper --(Jnterjection)--I 'll just finish this sentence, perhaps it's better to turn a blind eye if that's the phrase, to the profit motive and allow the service to be performed so that that need in society, that need in the com munity is fulfil led, even if somebody is making a dollar off it . The member wants to ask me a question, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, ! thank the Honourable Member for Fort Garry for permitting me to ask a question.

Under the circumstances such as he describes what would his reaction then be when the first step is made by this private profit organization to ask for some kind of a per diem or other type of support from govern ment, which is historically the case. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR.

SHERMAN: Well I suppose that brings us right to the nub of the question as to what degree the community interest and the taxpayer's interest is being either protected or exploited, and I would say this, that if it can be demonstrated that in order to perform that service, the private operative does need some government assistance, a per diem, and if the alternative for the government is a far more expensive operation than a simple per diem support of the private operative would be, then I think on balance in that situation I would be willing to accede to the request from the private operative, provided he furnished me with a prepared documented audited statement of what his financ ial commitments were and how he was going to be able to meet them and how he could not meet them short of some per diem assistance.

Does that answer the honour able member's question ?--(Interjection)-- Well the standards of course would have to be rigidly supervised so that • • • to some extent, government is going to have to get into it, but if the government can provide that kind of assistance and provide that kind of supervision and do it cheaper than by putting up and operating the whole facility itself, then I think there is a role for the private operative, and if there is an element of profit involved, Mr. Chairman, I would agree with the Honourable Member for St.

Johns that that is not desirable, that is not the best way to go, but I think many of us in this House have agreed in this debate thus far that these problems are not going to be solved over night, they were with us 2, 000 and 10, 000 years ago, and I for one agree with the Minister when he says we'll still have comparable problems 50 years from now, because we 're not able at this stage of our development to achieve perfection and achieve happiness and achieve gratification and achieve equity for everybody in society.

So of course they're going to be with us in one form or another and we 're going to be continuing to grapple with them and until there is a way of solving them perfectly, we have to solve them imperfectly; and that means we have to look at what the private sector can do as well as what the public sector can do .

And this really gets back to the argument I was having with the Minister last night, I believe, and the Member for Fort Rouge was having with the Minister last night about the opportunity for private agencies and private operatives to function in this field, notwithstanding the desirability of keeping the profit motive out of it.

In ether words, if you can't do it without allowing somebody to make a profit , then I think that we should choose the lesser of two evils and allow the profit to be made, provided that hand in hand with that goes the service that is necessary and a service that would cost the government far more to do by itself .

And I know what the Minister has answered me on that and I'm glad that he did and he's on record as saying last night that he will maintain an open door and an open mind policy on this question and examine each application in that area on its merits, but I just wanted to respond to the Honourable Member for St. Johns in his remarks and suggest to him that I know that there is a diff erence of philosophy involved here, and I would go so far to say that his is the right one, but I just don't think we 're far enough down the road where we can do it that way.

And doing it any way, provided it's not dishonest, doing it any way is better than not doing it at all . If a dollar has to be made by somebody in order to get it done, I don't think we 're far enough down the road of our own sooial and temperamental development to take a restrictive position in opposition to that. I think it should be permitted.

April 9, 1976 2225 SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30, Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Logan . MR. JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ste . Rose that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presen ted and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Lea der. MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker, I believe that there is a general disposition to forego Private Members' Hour.

I gather that there have not been amendments distributed to the Rent stabilization Act and accordingly I indicated, it was understood that if they were not distributed this afternoon we wouldn't be meeting on Monday morning . So I would suggest that we will

schedule the next meeting when we meet on Monday afternoon, by which time I h ope the amendments would be distributed. So that the order of busine ss next week, Mr. Speaker, would be to proceed as we have been. The next department will be the Department of Education and Colleges and Uni versities. I expect that the Budget will be delivered next week, that Thursday will be - well, will not be Friday because we are not going to meet on Thursday morning in the House - but that Thursday we would have a short day, 2:30, and we would adjourn at 5:30, well 5:30 theoretically.

That Friday will be a holiday, that Monday we will be back in the Legislative Assembly, and I think that that is all the information that is needed for next week. Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, the House do now adjourn. MOTION for adjournment presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The House is conseq uently adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:30 Monday afterno on. Thank you, Mr. Sherman.

2226 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY - RENEWABLE RESOURCES MR. CHAffiMAN (Mr. Shafrans ky): Order please. Just before we adjourned we discovered that the Member for I.akeside does not know how to set a trap and it doesn't work. So we shall proceed . The Honourable Member for Swan River. We're on Resolution (

d) Wildlife Management:

(2) Wild Fur Development. --(Interjection)--! am not casting any kind of aspersions. I just stated that he di dn't know how to set a trap. (

d) Wildlife Management: Wild Fur Development (

a) Salaries--pass - the Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, under this item I'd like to bring up about some of the problems the beaver cause in local communities from time to time. In my particular area I remember a time that was brought to my attention in which they dammed up a creek and when the run-off came, they had trouble because .the water took a different course altogether and affected another area. They contacted the people, the game reserve; they had to do it through Portage; they came over and they said, well dig this area out.

The beavers replugged it the very same night and as a result they didn't get the water diverted the way they wanted it. I was wondering - probably some of these things where there is a municipal affair concerned if there couldn't be something more done because what they were told then was they had to contact Portage, it was at that time, and they were going to trap the beaver out and then move them or something like this.

It was a very drawn out process I was wondering if maybe some fur-bearing animals like the beaver, if they couldn't be handled different to this because they caused quite a bit of trouble in this municipality at that time. MR . CHAmMAN: The Honourable Minister of Renewable Resources . MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the standard procedure the department follows is that where there are beaver problems on a farm that the farmer can be issued with a permit to kill the beaver, to remove them . We leave that responsibility up to him further to that.

If there are dams to be broken then it's either the fa rmer's own responsibility or that of the municipality. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, through you. The Minister may be right but if he is then in this particular case they were wrong because they had to contact Portage and they thought the beaver couldn't be killed because they were becoming extinct and they were becoming fewe r. They were talking about trapping them and moving them to another area. I don't know whether the statement of the Minister really fits in with the problem that we had at that time. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, there are probably special problems and special cases where the department may become involved in a diff erent way. What I expre ssed was a general position and a general policy of the department. There may have been a particular case where the department acted in a different way because it was a special case, a special problem. That's the only answer I can give you on that. MR. HENDERSON: Mr.

Chairman, I was wondering, is the Minister meaning that in this particular case the farmer could have went out and done anything he wanted to remove the beaver or the dam they had put up without going through the Wildlife Ass ociation or through Portage as they did in this case? MR. BOSTROM: No. I'm saying, Mr. Chairman, that the farmer in this case should contact the local Conservation Of ficers, the local office of the department, and obtain a permit which is readily obtainable from them to remove the beaver that are causing the problem on his land.

With that permit he is then legally able to remove the beaver by whatever means. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, in this particular case I believe that the decision must have been to remove the beaver but not to kill them and so it was a very drawn out process. It caused quite a bit of trouble because it so happened that when they diverted the water, damned it in this particular case, it took a different course altogether. I was just thinking that it was rather cumbersome to have to do it this way. MR. BOSTROM: I don't know the particular case you're referring to.

As I say it probably was a special case where the department got invol ved directly becaus e of

April 9, 1976 2227 SUPPL Y -R ENEWABLE RESOURCES (MR . BOSTROM cont'd) ••••• special circumstances. It may have made the most common sense at the time to trap the beaver in such a way that they could be moved to a different area and therefore not cause any future problems. If that makes sense at the time, you know, the department probably could be involved in that way. But that is not the general procedure. The general procedure and the policy is that where a farmer has problems with beaver on his own land, he can obtain a permit to remove them so that he's not charged with the removal of the fur-bearing animal.

MR . HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I'll let that question go. Another problem we have from time to time in our area - there's quite a few muskrats and at times they'll undermine a lot of the roads that go through some of the sloughs that we have roads through and they become quite a problem to the municipality. I was just wondering, how does your department react to cases like this ? MR. BOSTROM: I can't really say offhand. It hasn't come to my attention. No such problems have come to my attention directly.

I would assume that the same policy would apply, that where the beavers are causing problems if it's a municipal road for example - or muskrats in this case are causing the problem - if it's a municipal road then the municipality would be given a permit to remove them. But it would be their responsibility to undertake the removal of those. MR. HENDERSON: Do you mean the removal or do you mean getting rid of them? You know, because they may choose to trap them or they may choose to just destroy them. MR. BOSTROM: That's right. They would be given a permit to destroy them if necessary. MR. HENDERSON: Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, on this beaver problem. The Minister has a resolution from the Rural Municipality of Swan River and has had it now for some time. I was rather interested in what he had to say, that the farmer could be given a permit to destroy them. The valley is of course bordered by the Duck Mountain Provincial Park and of course the Porcupine Mountains and this is where a great deal of the problems develop. I feel that the time has come, Mr.

Minister, that some program or some development should be set up in such a way to handle this problem because the preser vation of the beaver, as far as I'm concerned, is paramount to our province, to the wildlife of our province. Where they are interfering with the livelihood of a farmer and causing considerable flooding, and particularly in our area because of the bordering on the provincial park, I feel that a little more interest should be taken rather than a letter over your si gnature, Mr.

Minister, suggesting that a permit could be issued and it's the responsibility of the municipality to remove those beaver . Now I would like to feel that it would be your feeling that the beaver is a provincial - not a problem, but we have them and we should do what we can to retain them, and it would be the responsibility of your department, in my humble opWon, to alleviate the situation and see to the pres ervation of the beaver as such in the areas of Crown land of which there are thousands upon thousands of acres.

I want to assure the Minister that his reply to a very very considered resolution from the Rural Municipality of Swan River left them up in the air and no solution to their problem. I feel the province has an obligation to do something in this particular regard. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Renewable Resrouces. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I believe I indicated to the municipality in question, in reply, that I would be prepared to meet with them on this problem if it is a general problem in the area to discuss specific ways of providing a solution for it.

Now they have not replied in such manner to me, although if the honourable member would wish to communicate that to them I would certainly be prepared to sit down and discuss the issue more fully. There are ways in which the department does get involved in the management of beaver , such that they prevent a lot of the damage that could otherwise occur as a result of increasing beaver populations in certain areas. For example where there are large numbers of beavers and muskrats or such like animals which are causing problems,

2228 April 9, 1976 SUPPLY -R ENEWABLE RESOURCES (MR. BOSTROM cont'd) ••••• the department will undertake to obtain trappers who will go into the area and do a salvage operation, a salvage trapping operation, to re move the animals before they do become a problem. Where they become a specific problem on a farmer's own property and where there may be municipal roads in question, the department is reluctant to get involved on private property and be involved in breaking dams where the breaking of such dams may wash out municipal roads.

So that in those areas, because of those problems , we've taken the position that it's the farmer's own responsibility on his own land to remove beaver and he can obtain a permit to do same. Where there is a dam to break which may be affecting municipal property, private property or municipal roads, that it's the municipal government, the local government's responsibility to remove that dam. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure the Minister is cognizant of the fact that these dams are built on streams coming out of the Duck Mountain Provincial Park and that as and when there is tremendous overflow, it's flowing down onto valuable farm land. It's a very very important problem in our area and of course the park, being so close to the valley as it is , that I think it is , if I may say so, a special case and I would ask him in all sincerity - I know he's got people there but I want them to sit down with the council and give the Minister a full report as to the whole situation and a possible solution found. MR.

BOSTROM: Well Mr. Chairman, as far as that particular municipality is concerned, I'm certainly prepared to sit down with them and discuss the problem fully. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution - the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BrAKE : Just before we get rid of all the beaver, you know it's one of our national emblems , and it's also the emblem of the Royal Canadian Army Fighting Pay Corps which I had the privilege to wear for some years following that little bit of nastyness in the early 1940s.

While we're on Wildlife Management or Wild Fur Development, I should say, I share the same problems that the Member for Swan River has mentioned bordering on Riding Mountain National Park. There are a lot of problems there and they are almost identical and I appreciate the Minister's comments. But while we're on Wild Fur Development I would like the Minister to make some comment on what we're doing in the area of Wild Fur Development.

I notice we're covering a substantial amount of money from the Federal Government and I imagine this is a cost-sharing program that has been devised over the years for wild fur development. I wonder if he would care to comment on what is taking place in the wild fur development field. I trust that we're developing beaver also in areas where they're not going to cause problems such as we've heard. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Renewable Resources. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, before I begin outlining the Wild Fur Devel opment Program I'd just like to respond briefly to two questions that I took as notice this morningo One I believe was the Honourable Member for Swan River, enquired regarding unemployment insurance paid for firefighters employed by the province. The answer is that firefighters hired for individual fires - that is casuals on a daily basis - there's no unemployment insurance premium collected from them nor any paid by the department.

The fire attack crews which I indicated we are instituting this year, deductions will be made for these employees and whatever comparable amount is paid by the department will be paid. For other casual employees of the department such as fire rangers, tower men and so on, unemployment insurance deductions are indeed made. The other question that was posed was regarding a Highway No. 10 fire, which was brought up I believe by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. I indicated that if he'd heard about it already that I'm sure someone in the area working for the depart ment must be already working on it.

This is indeed the case. The two fires occurred yesterday. They were handled by the northern region, the Cranberry detachment. The first fire was on the CNR right-of-way and was where the CNR employees were burning under a burning permit. Five men actioned the fire and there were eight acres of grass burned. No forest loss. There is presently a clean-up crew watching the fire to ensure that there is no flare up.

April 9, 1976 2229 SUPPLY - RENEWABlE RESOURCES (MR. BOSTROM cont'

d) The second fire, origin unknown, possibly CNR again, five men limited this to ten acres of grass burned. No forest loss again. There is also a clean-up crew on this fire • Five men in each case. These men by the way are from the Rehab Camp at Egg Lake. MR. CHAffiMAN: The first mistake of allowing this reference is corrected by the second mistake of allowing it to be brought up at this time going back to the resolution we already passed. We shall proceed. We're on Resolution - Wild Fur Development - Salaries and Wages - the Honourable Member for Morris. The Minister. Proceed. MR.

BOSTROM: I was trying to proceed to answer the question on Wild Fur Development. This is a five-year Wild Fur Development Program which is cost-shared with the Federal Government 50-50. It became operational April 1, 1975. The efforts here are mainly in trapper education, humane trapping. There are trapper officers hired under this program who are working with trappers to assi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-71
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 71.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b87589b8ce7b46a5bcf079f0b1e0510985770a96

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).