VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MARCH 10, 1978 NO. 5

..U!-1 Tnc tiouse met at lG:UV ... ~.. .... .!.. :..~. Sl)eaker in tilt: Chair. a~. SPEf.KER: Order ,please! I would like to welcome to the galleries ti1irty graues lV, V and Vl students from the Pentecostal school i.zl llrown 1 s Arm, Stanhope,in Lel'lisporte district. ,These students are in St. Joim~s on an exchaD.ge vi,;it with Vaters Academy of 5t. Joi::m 1 s and they are accompanied by lir. Helvin 3all, i·ir. ~ion . ..:~usti~l a11.ci. _!r. Rice. I knoi-1 :=.11 :1on. me:uLbers v.rill joiTI SC': "C !iml. :·!E:BERS: hear, hear! PRI.SEiiTillG PETITIOi<S ;:.,-;..

SP£AIG:R: .ion. l!.!ember for Baie Verte-:·Jhi te !;ay. I rise to pres-ant a petitior. on be:talf of seventy-seven residents of tne cor.;mUllity of Fleur Je Lys. The ?rayer of the petition, :·Ir. Speaker, is silltple and it is asking that the remaining forty or fifty homes in tile coll'.munity be hooked up to tile water and sewer system. Now, Hr.

Speaker, t~1e water and sewer system was began in tl!at co=unity so12<: five or six years ago b.ick,arounu 1971 or 1972,and since that tiue well over $1 million was spent on inst:;lllng a water and sewer system to serve the connunity.Those :1o1i1es-dnU ti.1.e petitioners in this petition ~'ere on t~te ori3inal fillancLli:; beg;m for the ;;-reject -t:tose homes ·we!:e ~u be includ~J 1,, ~11e \Jater and sewer project for the .: ·unnunity. In fact, ::r. Spe:aker, accet>s to ilOl~et> were blasteQ some three or four ye::trs ago and they are still sitting tl.J.e:::e with the rocks pile;l up in the air.

Roads are still torn up aucl. so on. It is a mess in auy account,and of course tile sad par:: of it all is tnat forty or fifty homes in the collll!lunity still do not have water and se"er services cl.ispite the fact that ¥7ell over $1 million has been spent ' 34&

_•:arc c1 l::l ,1:7 7 8 Tapt! :lo. 119 ~..r~-2 on t:1e system. As I have inUicate:ci, t~1e ::;ys1:em wc.s engineered, clesi;;;ned and so or_ for tae whole co=unit}' and fundiu~ had been provided for three or four years in a rm< but these two years, since 1975, Hr. Speaker, no funds at all have been spent on corlpletion of this system. So the system is th.ere about three quarters complete; three quarters of the community :12.~ the service auU. ti1.e other c~uarter is still waiting ar.:.d 1.1.0 fU11ci.s have been forti1coming for tnis past four or five years.

I ,,,auld like to say also ir• su~'rortin[; th~ petition, ~lr. Speaker, I l1ave i~1dicated tl1at the {.i.esizr: ..... ras ura>."'11 u,? for t;le >.;iwle co;ili!lunity C~nd estimates cloue on that ;>drticular project , tll«.t ,,s far as I au concerned ~ili;; is anot:1er one of tl;e exrunples \mere consultiug f::.rms have been ripping off t~1is Province for b1e past eig~1t or ten years when it coml2..::i to \.;-c.t.:r anJ. .'3..:\·i~r pi.-oject.;. SO. fE 1:0:-r. :m:ffiERS: Tlear:t hear! :m . .UDEOUT: r:1e.re are consultinr; firma in tl1.is Province tnat should be AN HON. ME~ffiEF : In j ail. HR.

RIDEOUT: That should be in jail,to use the expression of ny hon. collea~e. Th.;:y ;,ave rippetl off CGtn'mnities right, left aud center in my district . AN HON. l:E; ·LBER: Are you referring to A.n. Walsh? :m.. l{IDEOUT: I do not mind sayin~ that I am referring to Gor.nan !lutler in this particular case, >!r. Speaker. They ~.a-..e rip;:ed off co.~ .. -.:tunitic's rig;1t, left and center in my district ctud I a~;: ,;;ure - ~iR. i.!I::f.0 S 1R : ' point of order, 1-lr. S10ed,er. '~ t~R.

SPEc,KI:..i~: ' point of order has hPPT1 ~g]led. '" :m. ~!IN::)SQR: Not1.;ithstanding the fact, Sir, t:1at the hon. r;entleman is hardly 'lualified to discuss t:1e capabilities of engiaeerL,g firms in the Province;he is entering into the realm of debate, Sir. HR. RIDEOUT: To :lJdt point uf order, ;tr. Spe.s.ker, I doubt 341

• 't :.R. llD30i.i~ : if t ho:! :1on . oe~ber for ::ou.lt l'earl(~:.r . :iin~sor) is ~ual~fleu to tal~ auout tac ~~ter anJ seuer syst~ in Fleur de Lys and I su~t I an suyporting che petition without deba te . .m. SPEJJ<.Ea: It ~·oU:d appec:r tha t there is a di!fe rence of opinion on var ious gentlell'.en ' s c;ualifications 10:ith res:>ect to e.13ineeri::g and not bei:tg one cyself I 1o1ould .tesitace to make a decision . liowevar , che secon~ as-t>ect of the hon . s entleu:en ' s po i.\t wit;, respect to enceriug i n to deba te •~as a valid Olle nnd I poin t out to the hou . member titat he na y not er:ter into J ebace . !!r . S?''!.<lker, it is an ill wiud c:tat llows ' 342

"arc'1 11), 1"70 Ta pe 12'1 Er - 1 l·1R. RIDEOUT : because we have now found the defender of the consultant fir!!l.S in the House. So, }!r. Speaker, the prayer of the petition is quite clear. Those people are asking for the basic service to be hooked U? to the water and sewer syste!!l. that is already there. I table the petition and ask that it be referred to the denartment to which it relates. ~ n:t. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo followed by the han. member for Conception Ray South. rAPT. E. ~TTNSO~: '-fr. Speaker, I rise to supnort the netition so abl~r oresented by nv colleague.

Sir, the same thing has ha:m ened in the !'etition ~•hich he referred to as hanrened in "us~rave !'arbour in the -iistrict of l'ogo, ancl neople there are unc'er the sat:'e iJT!?ression that too much monies '"ere paid to tl-te consultant engi!'.eers and not enough left to comolete the tVater installation in that community. A?I HON. :lEJffiER: There should really be no need to come into St. John's about: ~ ·later. CAP>r. l!I'lSO!l-: Hell, this is the point, ; •r. Speaker.

I can only refer to it as it applies to Husgrave Harbour. .A.nd at ~!usgrave Harbour when the installation had taken place there was absolutely no suoervision from government. 'lmv the representative of government~as I understood it,,vas the enp:ineer himself. You knm• , it is J.il:e having a court in hell, as thev sav, ancl the devl.l 'l our j nr\ge. :l.nt1 this is why that «ater svstem ~'as not completed: "'here was no s upervision by goverrnnent. So, ' 'r. Soeal:er, I am sure the hen. minister is ccncernec1.

I am sure tnat this is not the first time it has been brought to his attention, and will be, ! ~10uld say, in future, Because there are a lot of people suffering today hecause of mismanagement of funds. I am not preoared to say here who mismanaged the f1mds, but the blame I am placing here goes to the government for not orooerly supervising the installation <Vhile it <-ras taking nlace. I suoncrt that oetition, Sir. 343 I· . '·

:•arch 10, 1?78 ':'ane 120 EC - 2 !1R. SPEAI<EP.: The han. member for Conception Bay South. }'R. ~OLAN: I rise to su~oort the netition, !:r.

S~eaker, and alt~ough I su~pose it would be natural, or some people would consider it to be natural for ne to just pic~ on the government because of lac!;: of managel'lent, as mv han. friend indicated, but the fact is that there are times I am convincecl that may he the ~'inis ter of :•unicinal t1ffairs through his officials, or Ei::;~cwavs, or •rhatever department is concerned, have in fact given contracts to consulting firms, have naicl out good nul:> lie money, and they 'lave :'een led dmm t:1e g~rden path. r.;;1at they have done is thev have oaic t'1e rnoney - I cannot \:neck a minister for this, l:>ecause I know there are tiroes wl1en they 'tlave fallen into one heck of a trap.

And I am s•1re some ministers I ~-nou, i!l Fact, t~\ at they have t~DP.!!ht e~,out it a!'.~ t~11-.er. al:out it privately, a.nci' in SO;."~.e cas~sa I Celi.eve, 1 ~ave takeT' sore action against it. T!1is is not to sav or to sug7est that all consulting ftrl"s or all enfineers are 'trac\. That is nonsense.

He are not tryin~ to co that in any 1;ay, shape or fl\shion, but uhat I am sayini?, is that I 1.;rould hope t~at if there is a consulting firm that 'has l:>een mmrdec1 a contract bv any ~. epartment of rovermr.ent, ~>h"'ther it be mur.icip2l, federal, provincial or whatever, and they ~ave done a lousy job, in fact they have been ne<>;ligent in tlleir charge, that there shoulc'! be sot".e second tbou:rhts given to givin~ t'hem any rr>ore ··•ot:!: - - to paving them any I"ore :;Janey. It i,; r:\'Tron~.

I r:-tean, "t·'e are smart enou)?r, apparentl~~ to '1;·71:0p into Bor;e noor little l·:elfare recipient if that is out of line. row can tVe have this double tier standard that we have? Is it a fact that those <Vho ~ave the money - the. cash and the firms, I mean- that they have another form of justice? l\nd as long as ••e let them ge.t a~~ay 1dth this because they are allegedly so-called professionals - I mean, there are nrofessional crooks too. Crder, plea1'e! I f'TUSt ;ooi.r-t out to the ~on. gentlel'lan that he is stra,Tin~ somewhat fret' tlce ::or2yer of the petit:!on . 344

''arch 1~. lll7S :::r - 3 ·~hich re(!uested the conDletior: of a ·~ater systen . The hon . nember . I certain!~ t:.ho.nk Y,OU verv cuc."', ''r. Soeaker. ,ffi I am saying is that I lllil not merelv jU'!I'lnincz on the government on this . It would be easv, T. suppose, to say that in t"'is nnr ticular lvater system . bu c t!1ere !1a.ve hee n cases of systems ;>ut in the ground, they have been dug up- it is ~eyond the sharlow of a doubt, other exoerts, other engineers ·~ill tell you it has :>een the fault of the encineering and the consultant. ftnd what I am 345

:rarcil 10, 197 8 Tape ;Io. 121 :EI - 1 saying is that no action in oany cases has been taken. I do not knocl~ the minister in this regard. I am hoping is that he will pay close attention to the prayer of the petition and that he will not stand oy and let any consultant get away with taking the people to the cleaners. S O~· iE HO::< . ; !:El:Ei'.RS: :1ear, hear! :m. SPEJIJ<ER: The hon. ;-[inister of Hunicipal Affairs and Jousin2;. Yes, l!r.

Speaker, just to ,;c.y a fe1~ "ords on the petition and to talk to some of the remarks that were made by some han. members opposite: Certainly I cannot say Hhether Fleur de Lys 1dll be done t his year, completed t h is year or not. \ie will have a look at that.

The Capital Projects Connittee in t!1e department will look at that and make recorunendations and hopefully it will be one of the ones that vdll go fonrard, but I cannot speak to that at this point in time. \-lith respect to consultant firms, just to clarify some of the,maybe,misconceptions that some han. members may have, consultant firms are basically appointed by the town councils. In other words, they make a recommendation to me and the contracts that are si;;ned are between the consultant, or the town, and the construction firm.

So the town would make a recmmnendation to me as to whom they want for consu.!.ta1 ,t, even t hough iil some instances I ruay not like it. One firm,for example, =y O:Je getting too nuch '"ork. Their competence is such that everybody -,.;ants them. :IR. :EARY: I know all about these. HR. DINN: SoQ.e fims ,for example, :ir. Speaker - HR. NEARY: i·1etro Engineering. ~!R. n:c.rn: It is not a consulting firm and that is before the courts and you lvere ruled. out of order on that yesterday.

And if you do not know the rules of the House at least abide by the one rule that says that you should sit in silence vrhile soP.lebody else i s spea!:in g . 346

:~arch 10, 1973 Tape .'lo. 121 :m - 2 ciR. DI:·lN: So jus·t to clarify the point, the consultant fires are appointed basically by the town councils. }iR. NEARY: That is right - :-m.. DINN: And until we change the legislation - :-m.. NEA ... ~Y: - but approved ~y you. . .., i>.-.1\ .. DI!~: Jell c<:rtainly, anythin;;; that is done by the councils are approved by the :lin is tar, but I have often gone tack to councils c;nc' l:!ade ·.recoiiUnendationa and they have CO"i!le back to 7ne and said, ''l;nJer J.lO circ:ll!lstances. tole ~..vant such-ctud-sucn. .. , .A.'"ld that is the one they ;;;ot.

An<l obviously then they l1ave to put up •,;itil \;hat tt1at consul"tant firm does. But the majority of consultant firms in :iel~foundland, Hr. Speaker, are excellent fi=. They do an excellent job for government and th~reo =Y !Je one or tv;o that ao not quite weasure up. The hon. ~el"..ber for Eagle River has yiel.led for the c1on. minister. r:R. liORG.\:~: Just a brief comment, Er.

Speaker, on the petition and the comments made as \vall; I ~;ant to dissssociate myself as a member of this House of Assembly with the statements wade that consulting firms, some of them,should be in jail and they are professional crooks. I do agree that, as JaY colleague just mentioned, that some of the engineering work done on water and se:rer work by some firms is better than other firms. .\nti tl1crefore it may be a future consideration to look at the possibility of grading these consulting fi= as to wilD is the best and lvho is t;"le ,;ors t.

But I take stron~ exception to statements being made tl1at they are c:.-ooks, and they are professional crooks and I take strong e:~ception to statements being oade that they should be in jail. I heard that statemeat and I want to make it clear that at least one member of the House of Assembly disassociates from these kind of statements. ' ' HR. SPEA::I.R: The han. nember for Eagle River. - 347

~!a rch j_Q, l 97S :ape ::~· . !21 - 3 :tr . S;>a.::~ker, i J o not ~~an:: to enter into the realr.1 of debate ou this issue here . I '.-'ould like co suppor1: the prayer of the peti tion for the completion of tite water and sewer syste~;~ in the comunity in oy friend's dis trict. But as a cou?le of points have been raised I woald li~e : o poin t out on the L&>~ador Coast, talk about consultins firms, there is one collCiunity of ove r 300 people in 11hich !n the last three jears , four yea r s , a consultant fi~ has charzed or h ~s been involvell in the ···ate r and sewl!r pr ojclCC in e~cess ol. ~3 million .

S3 million for ~ cowmunity of 31)0 jleople to put b a wat~~ 01nd sew-er syneo in which only this 'linte r . after $3 .5 •ill ion actually, :1ave heen spent by th.as~ com;>anies involvcti in the p=ojec:, a i1utr.1s toilet '1a.> nov ;,een installed in the ;>eople' ~ 'lo oes in this co=unity. And i! this :.s aot ripping off ~ It >!a)' :lot :'e ::rookeJ but if it is no:: then it is ze ttiug 1•retty lo1o1 that this a:oount of :;Jo::tey - :-!akkovik . '?es, that is rigitt, the communit y of :.lakkovi:-..

And hE.retofore I :lever got involved in it because I feel t!lat \~ate r and sewer ::1ich is highly important i:1 these co=unities io the ~~rth where it builds up, and there has been some things gone :..•rong, there has i>een a lac k of supervision. The consulting companies 11ere not appointed b y the co=unity 348 ,, i t

March 10, 1978 Tape 122 PK- 1 Mr. Strachan: or the town. It was done through some involved anJ strange procedure a number of years ago, but I suggest that the ministers and my friend,who is looking for the completion of his project,should look into these kind of situations very carefully before we get into more of them and find that it will cost in excess of $3 million for every small community in this Prqvince. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to rise to support the petition presented by the hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr.

Rideout), and to indicate that I am fairly familiar with the community and with the project that he mentions and that is mentioned in the prayer of the petition. And I am aware that at the beginning, in the first couple of years of that project,there was all kinds of problems dealing with the design and the way the project was handled. Because simultaneously with that development at Fleur de Lys there was one at Nipper's Harbour which in the initial stages ran into the same kind of problems, I think the same engineering firm was involvec!, There are_ four points involved here, Mr.

Speaker, which are worthy of note, 1._1ne, there is a grading system that was instituted in the Department of Municipal Affairs as it relates to consulting engineers two or three years ago, which therefore inspects, supervises all consulting engineers in the Province that do water and sewer work. That is in place, and all consulting engineering firms are being graded as to their competence given the history of their work on particular projects around the Province.

Number two, there has been court initiated on a number of projects where there has been demonstrated by the council that inadequacies and incompetence is rampant either on the contractor's part or the consulting engineers_ part. Let me mention, Mr. Speaker, just the case in . ( Placentia is one that has gone to the courts. Let me mention that two other communities in which there was a fair amount of evidence about lack of supervision or lack of proper work,Whitbourne and Port au Choix,where 349

March 10, 1978 Tape 122 PK - 2 Mr. Peckford: hundreds of thousands of dollars additional were extracted both from the consulting engineer and the contractor, who had to go back in and do additional work. The fourth point is that Makkovik was a federal project, and it is only since the Province took it over that we have been able to make some sense out of it. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the prayer of the petition, Sir, so ably presented by my han. colleague the member for Baie Verte (Mr.

Rideout) on behalf of his constituents in the community of Fleur de Lys who are complaining about the water system that is in place but only three-quarters working. That is the way I understand it, and that is right. One-quarter of the system is not working. Now, Mr.

Speaker, my han. friend who just rose to support the petition, who just took his seat, the present Minister of Mines and Energy,when he was Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing undertook at our insistence, and I was one of the ones that kept pounding at the minister, the minister undertook to do an investigation of all consulting engineering firms in this Province to see if they were ripping off the department.

Now I was hoping that the minister when he rose to support the petition, because of the remarks made by my colleague about the consulting engineers,would tell us what the results of that investigation vt ere. Perhaps the present minister can tell us, either in supporting the petition or maybe later on. But there is a problem, Mr. Speaker. There is a ver y serious problem.

You have a whole list now of communities including Fleur de Lys where water systems have been put in place and in one incidence,I believe down in Placentia,you have a sewerage system that is after costing over $1 million, and I do not believe there is one house hooked on to it yet. I would like for the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) to get up and support the petition, and tell us what happened down in the han. gentleman's community of Placentia. Then we had it in Port au Choix, we had it down in- 350 - ..

- --.--- ---- ---- :-!arch 10, 1978 Tape 122 PK - 3 l 1R. PECKFORD~ Port au Choix and Whitbourne. MR. NEARY: We had it over in Wh.itbourne, we have it down in Torbay, we have it down in Pouch Cove. Mr. Speaker , the thing is getting out of hand, getting completely out of hand, and it is a very serious problem. And the bon. minister is wrong '<~hen the hon. minister says that the council are the ones.wh o recommend the consulting engineers. The council recommen.d consulti.ng engineers after getting a number of gentle hints from the department. AN RON . MEMBER: No. ~IR . NEARY: Yes, Sir . AN liON.

MEMBER: No, they do not. Mr. Speaker, I know wherein I speak .I was on a town council for twelve years , ~IR . PECKFORD: That is wrong. MR. NEARY: over twelve years , Si r, I spent twelve years as a member of a town council that we did a lot of water and sewer projects and every time, Si r, in every instance the consulting engineers were hir ed after the deparnnent indicated what consultants they want ed to · work on the job . MR. DL'IN: Recommened by the department, accepted or rejected by the council. 351

:larch 10 , 19 7::: Ta;>e ; o. 123 .• .! - _ :111.. ~TEARY : ' ell there yo u go now! That is not ~hat the minister said a few minutes ago. The inister left the impression that the town councils took the initiative ·~h an in actual fact it is the mi nis ter's depar t~ent t hat t akes the ini tiati ve. ::!L or: ,i: ~iot true . :!! .. PECKFORD: :io , i t is not true . Yes, t~e ~nis te r just tol d us . l)rder, :?lea s e; Or der, ?lezse!

I !lave tc ?Oin t out to '1on . :;en tle cen on :,o th sides t hat debatin g t he -let.l Od oi :l??Oi:'lti ~ <- consultants .is qui ::e clea rl~r ~ut side t he subje ct !:latte r of c:~a ? etition :t•h ich ~s a 'v e~ systec i n Fleur de L:;s . So I •,•oul d ask non . =cllers r:ot to contin ue at: t his mome:lt t he debate on t he r.~ eti!od of app o int:i~ consul tan ts. The hon. a ember f or La?oile. l-!R. :<D.RY: Unfort=ately part o= that water sy stem in n eur e Ly s , l !r .

Speake ::, i s the fact c:.ac ".Je .:.aa:;:e vi t ~e .;oof y tile consult ins ans · 1cers i t ~ril l n01: cost t!l<! resiclent::; - tf it is ramedied , i£ i t · s rectified, some uo dy , az co pay fo r i t a nd i t will ~e tl e unfortunate people in Fleur de ~y s . cL~ . Pi:C:G'ORD : The gover :lllle.l'lt tha t 'j OU ~< ere a part of .rppoin t ed : iR. ~ E.Ar..l: Ap~ointad · ~1 at consulta:\ts? . ..., .·u: .. . Pi:C:~FO':m : T!.e ones i:::. Fleu r di: L;.-s. .. r . Spaa .-er, uhe n did ha c: ·.J at~r systC:.'1l s tart .

P EC;T .1RD: Consultan t s ...,e r e ap poin t<?;J ill 1? 73- 71 . =~ · :UDwt.'T : It started in '72,1 thi:l! :. rR . : E...\R'i: It sta rted i n '72. :·iy hon. friend says t he system St<it'ted in '72. I would question t :ta ;; very l':luch. 1 \o.•ould question t!la t very much . Cons ult inG e:'l!li>:eers \<ere app oin t ed i:'l '71. 352 ~ . ' . ~ '

;:arc.l 10, 19 78 Ta?e :io. 123 .rr: - 2 :D.. ~lEARY: :•Ir. Speaker, I Vlas in gcverrun.er.. t for t!1ree and a half years, Sir, and I do not retlelllber one case, one instance, of wl1ere a Se\.;ei.·a(;e 3J'Ste~ was put in,for instance,like the one in Placentia,and not a house hooked onto it. Or the system in Fleurs de Lys breaking dmm, only three-quarters of it working. I d.:> :lv!: retaemoer one case. But "'"e have had a whole list since this hon. crowd formed the government back in 1972, on JanuarJ. UR. PECKFORD: There '.;as no work done prior to t:<at . So;, :1r ..

Speal:.:er, it gives rae great pleasure to support the prayer of tile petition and I hope that the :1on. gentl.:man '"i ll be successful in getting that situation remedied and that the real culprits will be the ones that will foot the cill and ~ot the people o= Fleur de Lys. so:·rE am<. :m;r:;;ms; !lear, hear! :·lR. SPE.'\LG:R: Ti•e c"lOn. member for )~aunt Pearl. ; :?.. 1villDS0R: clr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition. I can ~•ell appreciate the frustration the people froo Fleur de Lys must have with a system that is three quarters completed.

But I must, Sir, take exceptic-n to the r=arl~ :uade by the hon. member; as a professional engineer I think I v1as lumped in there with his remarks as well as anybody else that he spoke about. l·rrt. SPEAI(ER: Order, please! G::ler, please! The !~on. gentleraan llli~ht be able to find a way of getting those remarks and ;,.; rni<:;ht not, I do not know. 3ut a frontal difference of opinion is of the very essence of debate and I ~iOuld remind t:1e r:on. S·~· .ber he may not enter into debate. The hon. member for !fount Pearl. ~!R. ln~'DSOR: Thank you, Hr. Speaker.

I regret that thi.o debate took place because it is clearly outside the prayer of the petition. However, I did want to make that point I take strong 353 '· . ~

Ta;>e !'o . 1!3 .~~ - 3 .!R . i 'I!lDS CR : e:v;cept:ion and if t he hon . gentleman has a coo:plaint to make in relation to a particular firm, t. en I sug-gest he lodge ~~at complaint with the Association of Profess ional Engineers in this Province, who t.rould very happily look into that mat::er ior him . Fair enou,/ t . :fi! .. S?EA..'<ER: The ~o~. member for Placentia. ~f r . Speaker, I rise to supper~ ~he petition at:.d I certair.J.y can appreciate t:1e position he finds himself i:., representing tha1: dis trict.

I-:1 1974 a ·~a ter and sewera6e syste:n ~sas commenced in .Placentia and over probably $700,000 s;>ent anc t he thin:; is not ,.,.od:i-:11;- 1t is !ti:;hly unli!<el · :.t Hill ever vork. .\rul I ..-ould like to say t ha t the consultants b :- ~hat pro ject ;;er e t:te chi d r~a of the Liberal Governmen~, Corman Butle.r . In 1968 they started and in 1974 thei::: plans tJe re completed a-:1d the job started in the spring of 1974 .. ~ o•,; it is in court. The bonding company.

Dart Construction, for the contractors went broke , Connan Butler :!R. ~!.\ y: Are you go i ng to bla~e the t ical ~ave on the formar administration too? 113.. .P !l.TTE.RSON: lo , but I would not doubt that you possibly ~ :o..J.d. Tha t .:.s :10t t e uave t hat ;,coug: 11: tl;e Liberal Part:,· hac> co vo\:er. • b I 354

:-'.arch 10,1978 Tape lio .124 .'I.II-1 :1R. ::'ECKFORJ: I do support your petition there and I hope that it will be put back in operation. ORAL QUESTIONS :1R. SPEAKER: tion. member for LaPoile. ~lR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I >vould like to direct a question to the Xin:!.;;;ter of Intergover=ental Affairs, Sir. I would like to ask the minister wnat is being done about the ~orth si<le of the Argentia nava.l station.

I understand there are a large numder of people interested in establishiu.g fish plants and ot:.,:r industries on the ii'orth siue of that base but they cannot get any satisfaction from eiti1er the provincial or the federal govenll!lents. What i.;; being done to get the Xorth side under control of the Province and/ or the GoverThuent of Canada to get it out of the hands of the o:'\...TUericar.s so t:1at lun~ terra leases ca:1 he entered into witll these people who are interested in establishing industry in Argentia~ ciR. SPEAKER: Tile hon. minister. ilR. DOODY: i·1r.

Speaker, we have an interim agreement with the Government of Canada on part of that facility in Argentia. The main area right now of concern and contention is th.: laq;e building that we hope to convert to a cold stora;:;e facility. T:1at is a proposal that is now bei:~.g considered by the Department of Economic Regional Development for assistance. The Gover=ent of th.: Unit2d States has never had any hang-ups or compunctions about turning tnat property over to >Jhomever is decided to be ti1e proper recipient. Ti1e ;orobler:J. has beer, in trying to identify to '/hom it snould be turned over.

This frustrating struu;J;le has been boin~ on at least four years' since I v.ras ::..:.:~ Intlustrin.l Development,anu prior to ti1..tt wnen ti1e Ar .• erican aut:1orities inc:iic;::ted ti1eir desire to ::urn ti1is prc,perty over to another jurisdiction. The Gover=nt of Newfo~.<>•ulanJ. felt i:hat it should have sOI!le imput into its disposal.as indeed is t:1e case in Stephenville and Pepperrell. The Government of Cana6:& ~1aC: sc1.1-2 355

Tafe :;o. 124 "'~.f-I-2 reservations about this. s~me ~2partT.ents were a g;:eat deal ::to:::e c,'-operative t~an othars 0ut I am happy to say t:1at tile thiag is llOli coning to a point of realizatiOLl a:.:d ....-e .ohould te in a position soon to do somethi::g constructive ldth these buildings before they are beyond hope of redemption and they do become obsolete and useless to anybody, A suppl~~e::~tary. :IR.

SPL\KER: A supplemer.tary. :·IR. clEARY: :-l'ould ~l1<.:. i:on. minister tell tl:e ;~ouse if tl1e ~over~ent are still employing a security service to protect ,?roperty ::m:i buil::li.-'1gs t:1at we Jo not own on tie Hartl: sici.e of t::e base? A:,::d if so, ~:auld the minister indicate if public tenders lvere called for that security service? If public tenders 1·1ere not called,"~ulu the Mi::ister tell us why p~blic tenders were not called? :·!l'.. i.JOOuY: Tite:-a are :'ublic ~larks emplc·yeeos there. :Jell perhaps LH! l!'inister - ::'ublic Works e!Ilployeesl W~ll my understanding. )!r.

Speraker, was th.3.t it was a private investigating security company. i·ill.. DOODY: No, ':here was an interim period when things ·;1ere deteriorating out at Argentia at such a rapid rate that the member for the district and others·brought it to our attention that if somethi:.:.g 1.ras not done very quickly that irrespective of jurisdictional responsibility there would be nothing out there to do anybody any good. w:: had to act very quickly so en an ir..!:erim basis there was a private company hired to put some caretaker staff in place.

Subsequent to that, aud witi:in sever:ll mont:ts of that d:lte ,as I re!ile.o.ber • the responsibility ·w-as passed over to the Department of Public Works and their employees are now the security staff at Argentia, That Dl.:l)' not be absolutely correct in detail as to the months or lvhatnot but that is the general substance of it. ~!R.. SPEAKER: Han. member for Fogo.followed by the meruoer for Eagle River, ' I CAPT Vi'INSOR: ~Ir. Speaker. I would like to direct :::,is question co the l-linister of :1unicipal Affairs anci !:lousing. I may heve to preaoble this question a little. 356

March 10, 1978 Tape 125 PK - 1 Capt. Winsor: Three or four years ago people started to settle on the centre part of Fogo Island, and since then there has been a controversy going on between the councils on Fogo Island, namely, the Council of Fogo, the Council of Joe Batt's Arm, the Council of Seldom,as to who should have the control over the developing of that part of Fogo Island. Now I understand that representations have been made to the minister as to who should have control. I wonder if the minister will tell the House now whether or not he has made a decision or where does the matter stand now?

And if there is any decision made,who would get the control? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Municpal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we :t ave a fe\oJ b o u n da rv disputes in Newfoundland today. In t h; s case the department set up a commissioner to go out and have a look at the problem, and he has made recommendations to me. The commissioner's rerort has been received by me. I had a look at it, and the report basically recommends that the central part of Fogo Island be controlled by Urban and Rural Planning in my department. I do not think that that is quite possible.

So what I have done is I have sent ~y regional manager from Gander over, Mr. Wilson Weir, to have a look at the situation, and to make some more recommendations. I have the option of course as minister to either - well,I have accepted the report of the commissioner, but to approve of his recommendations or not - in this case I do not feel that Urban and Rural Planning here in Confederation Building in St. John's can control development of the central part of Fogo Island. So I have asked my regional manager to go over and have a look at the situation, and to talk to some of the people over there.

I would certainly welcome some recommendations by the han. member, Mr. Speaker, on anything we can do to fix the situation over there.• Certainl.Y, hopefully, ':le \~ill come ur \'lith the: right conclusions, but we have not arrived at what the right conclusion is as yet, and it may take some more time. CAPT. WINSOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 357

March 10, 1978 Tape 125 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, perhaps 1 as a suggestion to the han. minister, one way of dealing with it would be to have a plebiscite among the people directly involved; let them choose, you know, who they would rather go under the control of, whether it is the Town eouncil of Fogo, Joe Batt's Arm aT what have you. That is the suggestion I would make to the minister,to set up a plebiscite there and let the people choose rather than go in and say you are going to go with this one or that one.

Then it will be their voice,who would have the better knowledge of it. MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent suggestion, and I will certainly take it under advisement. MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated that I would recognize the han. member for Eagle River next. MR. STRACHAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I kind of slept on the rules in the last while. Mr. Speaker, I watched the opening of this han. House on television in Nain, and I watched the Premier make his speech.

I would like to address a question to the Minister of Mines and Energy concerning that. The Premier has stated, it is an obvious statement,that the Gull Island project is almost totally dependent on finding a user for the power; especially if the power comes back to the Island or is held vlithin this province, then a fairly heavy industrial user will have to be found. That is a fairly obvious statement.

I am asking the minister thiS: at the moment we are trying to find users for power in this Province, especially for the Gull Island project, why is it that this Province then is pursuing so heavily a course with Quebec on the Upper Churchill of wanting to recall more power rather than ask for our fair and equitable value in money for the resource? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD : I think the han. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) has his wires crossed interpreting government policy as it relates to access to Upper Churchill power. The course that ~ 358

}larch 10, 1978 Tape 125 PK - 3 MR. PECKFORD: we are presently pursuing is one to gain additional value for the power that is presently being sold in the interim. And in the long term there is a court action -underwa y to try to get additional recal l bac ~ which would be some time in the future . "" So that there for e is a two or tnree ) 7 pronged attack, and not one that solely relies upon recall and henc e no more m.oney . J MR . STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A su pplementary. MR. STRACH&'I: ~tr .

Speaker , this seems to be a change in a ttitud e compared to last year because I remember in this House last year when we advocated trying to get the fair and equitable value. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman was recogni~ed to ask a supplementary~ ...,hlch is a question arising out of the pr evious answer , and I believe he was getting prepared to debate the previous answer . 359

"arc'-1 10, 1978 "ape 126 EC - l ~~.. STRACHAN: Could the minister then indicate t>hether this is a change in t..'te attitude by the administration since last year? At that tim~ they did inqicate that what they were looking for '~as total recall of power rather than looking for value in money and that our attitude on this was a heretic attitucle - they attacked us on this - and I am •mndering '·7hether this is a chc.nged attitude then from last year? }'!' .. SPE.'\KER: ~m.a PECKFO!'D: T'-le 'Ion. '·linister of ~lines and Energy. tlo, 'fr.

Speaker, there is no change in attitucle from last year, but there is a. chc.nge in the interoretation, in the ~o:ay the han. member sees the situation. A supplementary, ~'r. Speaker. -~- supplementarv by the han. member for Conception ~ay South. Just before the han. gentleman aslcs the sunplementary, I have been informed that "'e have nrenty-six Grade VI students from the r~ulds Flementary School, accompanied by their teacher, ~!r. Thistle, and I know han. members would wish to ~~elco:ne the!'l. SO~E RON. ~T~P.RS: l·lR. Sl'EIIY.EF: ; L'L :TOLA'-1: Hear, hear! The han. the member for Conception Bay South.

In reference to the r.ull Islancl question as posed by the han. ~e~her, I am wondering where it stands at the ,.,,oment i.n vie1·7 of the remart:s, I believe, either in the Dress or the '{ouse of Comnans in Ottawa by "r. Crosbie, the mel'lher far St. John's '·'est, t!'"-t Sull Island <Vould never :;o ahead. )iou <~here r'oes it lie at this mo~ent? I mean, is this the position of the government at the moment provincially, or the minister, or what is the current position? ~~. SP!:AK.ER: :;R. PT:CY.FO::ID: The han. the Minister of Jo!ines and Energy. As I understand it, "r. Speaker, ·:r.

John Crosbie is a membrr of the House of Commons for St. Jo'm 's Hest 8.nd, therefore, reflects in ~is statements and questions in t'1e Fouse of ·. 360

':arch 10, 197 3 Tape 126 r:c - , !'R. PEC"KFOP..D: Commons the vie1vs of timself as 1vell as that of the federal P.C. Party of r::anada and, therefore, no l>ay necessarily reflects t'J.e vie1' or policy of the Government of }'eTvfoundland. SO~·IE HOU. 1!:E~13ERS: Year~ hear! A supplementary ~y the original questioner, then I recognize the han. member for Terra :·:ov?...

Could the ninister indicate ,,,hether at meetings which have been held or meetings uhich will be held Tvith the members fran the Province of Quehec, an indication Hill he 1!12.c!e l'Y this Province that a resource taxation possibly will be applied to the Churchill Falls power in order to try to regain our fair and equitable value of the power? T·:ill this be indicated to them, and uill it be indicated to them in a fairly strong and a fairly tough nanner as <ve indicated and was the position of this party in the !louse last year? ''R. SPE.AKER: The hon. the "inister of l'ines and Energv. ~ffi .

PECT{FQ~Jl : I consider it irresponsible for me to try to indicate to this han. Rouse today the l~inds of alternatives that Tve will be exploring with the ()uebec delegation today, but rather, just to indicate to the han. House that 1ve will be insisting upon fair and equitable return on all matters dealing with Labrador power, and then, in due course, we will be informing the hon. House. c"1. SPEAKf": The hon. member for Terra ;;ova. ''R, LUSH: ~ rr. Speaker, a question to the "inister of Labour and l~anpower.

In the Speech from the Throne there is some reference to government's concern about strikes in the puhlic service. I am wondering \.lhet\1er the minister is i.-t a position to inform the House as to 1·1hether or not he can tell us anything about the government's intentions in this matter, some more specifics on T•7hat the legislation might be, or just what the government's intentions are: !1R, SPF AKER: The han. the Hinister of Labour and Hanpower. :'ffi. T!OUSSE.\U: Hr. Speaker, as I have said, from time to tiMe, ne1v acts t'1at have been passed in the Eouse and gazetted have to be 361. ., I I

::a-rch 10, 1~78 '!ape 126 !:C - 3 ~!R . ~Ot;SSt:AU : changed to sone extent, and presently government is looking at some ch~~ges or contemplating some chan~es in respect of the ~ublic Service Collec tive B argai~ing Act . One of t he chanReS is not ~~e question of whether s cr i~es ~~11 be outlawed o r not in ::he oublic service ~and I do not !:now how that "'as read on t he statement that or as t':ere . ' 1ay!>e the s tatement is ami:iguous - t hat is nossi;,le -hut at this point 1~ tine, 30vernnent 362

::arch 10, 1973 Tape ilo. 127 ~;:! - 1 is not considering the abolition of s tril:es in the public service, but there are some ~1&<ges being contemplated in the Public Service Collective 3argaining Act. Terra ./lava. LIR. LUSH: A supplementary, the han. m~ber for I::J. these changes that the ;ninister ls conteL1plating, is there a::J.y effort to involve t lte people that are concer::J.cd, the unions, or is it just the intention of gover::J.ment to railroad through these changes1 : rr. . s P J:...-..:G:r. : ~I!L ROUSSE.AU: The han. liinister of clanpower a::J.d Industrial fu:lations . ~ !r.

Speaker, yes, there will be, as there always has been. That is not to say that eit;1er side, or both sides, may )e ha?PY ~·Tith the c:1anges tll2.t ~re there. Certainly their vie\VC ~J ill be elicited. Tl1e :;overmnent \vill give considerstion to ~t.eir vie~·7S as government did 1dth =nagement and labour -'n tl1e C.aLour Relations Act, the new Labour Relations Act. TI1at is not to say that they are going to be completely happy for labour's point of view or from management's point of view,but certainly their views uill be elicited. :!R.

SPEA,"<EP..: I recognize the han. member for Port au Port, followed by the han. (;entlel"..an for Lewisporte, and the three colleagues sitting behind him. HR. IIODDE!l: Mr. Speaker, a question to the han. the l!inister of Education. Did the minister or the government :Ja:~e ~n 3.Jree:!lent \Vith the other nine provinces indi::a.ting that they >Jould provide l'rench lilr.gu ,\:;e L~struction in ;;ewfoundland., and if so '"hat was that agreement? What ·.~ere the cletails? The hon. ~!inister of Education. c!R. HOUSE: :1r.

Speaker, there has been no general agreement , What had happened at the First Ninisters Conference, the Hinisters of Education were asked to look at the state of minority educati;;>n 363

:~ rc!.1 10 1 1973 :rape ;;o. 127 :c - 2 I CR.. ;rousE: in each of the provinces. :i:his v1as done and we did a survey,for instance,for Newfoundland and passed back to the First clinis ters.

The general agreement is, and there is nothing written on it yet, that where possible and feasible, where there is a French ~inority in the Province, we will provide education in that language, the French langua.-:e. :i:here is no ~•ritten agreernent but I ti<ink it is just a .:;enerally accepted agreement '•here it is feasible and of course where we in the Province no~v have that going on in tuo places where it is feasible; in Labrador Citj, ,_-e iwve a French school there, and there is a French school in the hon. ~mber's district, Port au Port, and that is an i=ersion school and it is developing year by year.

It is up to about grade four now,I think,and it ~dll become bilingual from there on,I believe. :IR. SPEA.'<ER: h supplementary. :lR. :!ODDER: Does the minister intend to take <:teps to implement French language instruction in the communities which are most French,I suppose the communities of Mainland and Black Duck Brook in the district of Port au Port, which have no le~ciuage instruction at the present time? }!R. SPEAK:?_: Tile hon. Minister of Education. :-1\. HOUSE: Tilis of course is originated through the school boards and we have not had discussions with regard to that yet.

Of course if the school board is interested ~'e ~ ,·ill c~rtainly bold discussions Hith them and see "'hat can be done. I indicated I would recognize the hon. nember for Lewisporte next. ~C1. lffiiTE: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the ~I:i nis ter of Transportation and Co:mnunications, and this of course ·,muld involve his dual role as Minister of Intergo\•ernmental Affairs as 364

: iar c ~ !.0. 1?78 :-r.r - 3 :B.. HI!ITE: Hell. Could t he ::dn ist~r cell the :louse tvha;; the present status is •Ji t il res.,ect to negotioti ons 1-/ith Otta;;a re the five Eerry services on the . O'tt heast Coas t , name ly Chan ~ e Island, Fogo , St. Brendan 's , C'teenspond, and o£ cour~ e the Green 3ay se rvic e as ;;ell? DOODY: n.e fer ry Se r vices that a rc currently being ::1e Gove:t"::o.ment of Cal ada . They l ave be en tryin6 ~o rici th emsel· ·es of that responsibili~7 f or qui : e a l onz while .

TIe Govern nen t of . ~;mf o unCla;1ci has resis t e.d t ~ at: anc.l t-"ill continue to cio : o unle ss ;;;; ca., et s ome sort of a.1 arrane eu.ent with Ott;;:Ma that \li ll be satisfacto ry co the Province in t erms of the fir.ancial a b ilicy to carr y tile s ervice at: a ~e~'el to t:irl ch t he reople ;.;-ho live i:l t:.e!>e areas are anti t leci . " to t!la t e:nd ".le are still oisc us s i.:.:; t " e :>~a t:te't ·vi til c; e fetie ral da yarb:lent. ied e'tal :u.iilister, discussed it very ~u.ickly, tal!-.:.C: 365

March 10, 1978, Tape 128, Page 1 -- apb l!!R. DOODY: in terms of the agreement that the Government of Canada recently entered into with the Province of British Columbia on the ferry service in that area, and hopefully we will come to some arrangement that will be acceptabel to both jurisdictions. As of this moment, Sir, there are no definite conclusions drawn or no definite arrangements arrived at. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister indicate whether or not the federal government has threatened or given notice that it is going to cut off those services at the end of March of this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: Well, they have indicated that they certainly have that intention, Your Honour. We have, as I have said, not accepted that~ whether we will be forced to do so unilaterally remains to be seen. I wouid think that that is not the case.

The attitude of the federal government appears to be one of co-operation and conciliation and I hope that we will be able to arrange something more satisfactory than the ultimatum which the hon. member refers to. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Could the minister indicate if the Bell Island - Portugal Cove ferry service is one of the services which the federal government is trying to buy its '!lay out of? MR.

DOODY: As the hon. member is well aware, the Bell Island service is one that the federal government is most anxious to get its way out of, to buy 366 ;-· t: j 'f. '-

.•. March 10, 1978, Tape 128, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: its way out of, as the hon. member refers to. It accounts for the major part of the bill that the federal government foots. The problem with the ferry service to Bell Island is not as urgent nor as imminent as the problem ' to which the hon. the member from Lewisporte refers to because ,the federal are hooked in there until 1985, anyway. I have indicated they would like to buy their way out; once again we certainly have no intention of going along with that unless we can get some sort of a satisfactory arrangement prior to the date that I just mentioned.

The Bell Island situation is somewhat different than the other ferries which were descirbed earlier, as I said, because of the date and the arrangements that are now in place. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: original questioner. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary. The Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware of the deplorable conditions that exist on Change Islands with respect to this service? And does he plan or the government plan to express a little more concern with repect to this problem, with only two or three weeks left to go? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: It is pretty difficult. I guess the best way to answer that is that the government is certainly aware of the deplorable conditions of the ferry terminals and the ferry situation on Change Islands. It has been a matter of concern for some . time and it is one that has been brought to the attention of the responsible authorities, and it is one that was raised once again, as I mentioned, by me and it certainly has been raised many times by my predecessor. It is not one that has been 367

March 10, 1978, Tape 128, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOODY: ignored or treated lightly; there is a great deal of concern and hopefully, the people responsible will shareour concern and show something tangible toward remedying the situation. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: I think I have indicated that would be the final supplementary. The hon. members for Conception Bay South, Baie Verte - White Bay, Stephenville, and Bellevue. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, earlier the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing in answer to a question on boundaries indicated there were some problems.

One of the problems I am sure he is familiar with - it is difficult to believe there could be jurisdictional disputes in Paradise, but such is the case, and I am wondering if the minister has any new information on that and also, because there is an involvement with St. Thomas and the possibility of an election coming up there, I am wondering if the minister can bring us up to date on that total situation, not now, on Monday, on the whole thing. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I could bring the hon. member up to date on that thing, but I think the more appropriate place would be downstairs in the office or something, because it is quite involved. It involves the St. John's watershed, it involves St. Thomas, and it involves Metro Board so probably that would be more appropriate. MR. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary then. A supplementary. 368

i·:.arc:, 10, 1978 Tape No. 1 29 :fi - 1 I aiil just ~~.,ondering if perhaps th2. id!il..: ::cr could cXtJand a little on when there will be an election, for example,in St. TI:omas to satisfy the people down there who have made enquiries? I know you have ~de announcements and so en, ::. am \:ono..iering Hhere the situation is? And as for the other matter, of coun;e vTe can discuss it as he suggests. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. tti.nister of llunicipal Affair::: and ':iousing. Yes, we have set up some people in St.

TI1o~as' for the election, the returning officers, etc. 'le neecl,I b~li<.·Je, one other person and we do not have that person as yet. So when thut is doOJ.e u.n election date will be set and a~1ay 1:e lvill go, '!_ery __ shortly. "!iL SPEA.'<ER: The hon. mer:Jber for Bair:: Verte - llhite Jay . :iR. ;n:::>ZOUT: :·!r. Speaker, my question is to the ~iinister of Transportation and Co~~nications, anci by way of a short 2reamble I am sure the minister is a1vare that a couple of ~s ago the report of Dr. Irving Selikoff uas presented to the provincial goverillllent.

And one of the recommendations of the report \vas that certain roads on the Baie Verte Peninsula be paved to control the asbestos contamination. The minister at that tine, the c'linister of Transportation,indicated that h&d he met with the Cabinet that would te <!one, and that engineering y;ork \vOuld get unden1ay this \-linter. I cvonder if the minister could tell me I·Jhether or not in fact any engineering <York has ;•et been done, <1nd some sort of progress report,~Vhether it is done, in progress, or hm• soon ,,-e can ex.,ect the engineering work to be completed and so on? c!?... SPEAKER: T':1e hon.

Hinister of Transportation and Communications . c:R. DOODY: There has been some engin!!ering "ork done, Your Honour. I cannot tell the hon. member exactly how much or what degree of completion has been arrived at in terms of engineering and design. The hon. member is absolutely correct \</hen he says that gover~~ent recognizes the significance of the problem, the difficulty in the area. Hov! much ca,l ::.e done in any ;:;iven ye.u ·. 369

:Iarc\1 10, 1<:'78 Tape ~o. 129 :,!R. DOODY : '.rill be governed of course in terms of the actual physical ability to do a certain programme or a certain project in an area at a given time. :ve l1ave asked the department to come in with a series of alternatives or proposals or options that t~e can study a..""'l.d get at as quickly as tve can tvith a vietv to allieviating the problem. Hopefully ~•e 'can do it all this year. If tve cannot pave it all thi::; year,t~1en certainly we w:i.ll have to try some alternate -..ay of keeping the dust dmm in those sections th~t cannot be paved this year.

As I say, it is an im~ortant and involved question and one that we are looldng at very closely ar.d carefully. ~Lt. SPRAKER: A supplementary. :JR.

RIDEOU'1': In view of the fact that the gover~~ent have accepted the significanc~ of this ~~oblem,and I am very appreciative of that, I wonder could the minister tell me ,.,;lecher or not :·,is cL~Jartment :1as in fact any plans for earl~r tender call for c;lis ,..vork on t:H~ Saie Ver-::e Peninsula so that as soon as cli:natic conditions 0ecome favourable in the Spring this programme can get underway, witho:lt,you know, 1·1aiting until August or September to &e t going? :m.. SPEAIG::R: The hon. i·iinister of Transportation and Co=unications. ciR.

DOODY: Well I tvould certainly hope, Sir, that ~e can get something started up tllere long before t:1at. As I :.ave indicated t}lrou;;h you, Sir, to the House, a report has \Jeen requested from the senior officials in the depart;neut to supply us with be various options and t:1e various patterns through which we can fol::.ow to bring the situation to .;. o;atisfactory resolution. Obviously ti1at '-'ill have to ~e star ted 1·1hichever the options are accepted.

He have get to I:Jake a start as quickly a;;; we ca;:, and as early as .ve can, Until such time as we see exactly what the engineering detail is and what is involved in it, you know,it wocld be most improper tc t!!ake a suggestion as to exactly when tenders can be called because I do not exactly know what the programme tvill be. 3'70 i f·

.!ra..:il l C, l9i3 The ;lon . member for S~ep:umvi.lle, :vllo(ved ~Y the hon . member for 3ellevu e; th e hon . ~er for !'ort de Grave , t i-ne pet1t1i:ting . :<fr. Speak er, a question to the :liais ter of Inter gove rnoencal Affairs . Could t:he min ister indica te t o t!'lis 3ous c how long the consul t ing fir:n of Hoods Cordon i1a.; ;,e en ;;.mployed as selling agents for Labrad or Line rbonrd? .±nc •..:itac is t heir daily fee c harsed to : his gove::n.~nt? E.1.. Sl'"AKEl\: Tha hen . :tinis ter of Iute r govern::tental Affai:-s . :n>.. :lOODY : :;o , I canno t, 'lour iionou r.

I t is a f!Ues:ion I ~dll have to take under adv isement. I do no c have ::hat information ~ t my f inger tips . ~·t:t . ::c;;eit: A :;upplem ent ary . One SU?ple~ntnry . :IR.. 1·iC:!EIL: Could t he '101\. "1! .. =-.s : er take unde r advisemen c :!S well t he t otal ar-..ount of monies p.:tid to chi s fim in an)' ~o~ork conce:: ninz the Labrador tinerboard from i t s begin.ning to no'-~? ~!JL SPEA.I(ER: The hon . member for Bellevue. :1r. S1>eake r , my question is for the ~!inis ter of ~!uni~i7al Affairs a:nd Uousi ng .

It is a.n old ques tion, and ?erhaps t~e stw, l es t way to explain what I am getting at is to rea d an extract from a let t er t ha t I recentl y rece~vec. :.;R. SP~KE!'.: Order, ple ase ! 371. ..,.

March 10, 1978 Tape 130 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: There is a specific Standing Order to ' the contrary that the hon. member may not read letters, telegrams in prefacing a question. So the hon. gentleman will have to get to his question via another route. MIL CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, on at least two occas,ions a promise has been made by at least two former Ministers of Municipal Affairs and Housing that they will change the system whereby a person who lives in an unincorporated area and perhaps the Minister of The Environment is listening as well a person who lives in Hillview, for example, which is unincorporated,he and his wife are paying - this is where the letter is from - he and his wife are paying over $30 a year to have their garbage collected at Hillview under The Waste Disposal Act, okay?

This gentleman works in Clarenville 0 i e- has to pay the service fee in Clarenville as well as the thirty-odd dollars in Hillview _, the unincorporated community; his wife works in Come By Chance and she has to pay the service fee there as well. So here we have a family of two, a man and his wife,paying triple, triple taxes. As I say,I am talking to the Minister of the Environment, and of course, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, and the Minister of Justice is not here, but it involves at least these three ministers, V/ hen 1 iS the minister going tO change this StUpid Set Up, thiS stupid law ?

As the minister is aware,I am sure, if I live in Norman's Cove,which is incorporated,all I have to do is pay my service fee there, and if I work at Long Harbour I take my receipt for my taxes that I paid in Norman's Cove, the incorporated area, take it to the Town Clerk in Long Harbour, and she says, fine you have your service fee paid. MR. SPEAKER: his question. MR. DINN: like that. Order, please! The hon. gentleman has asked The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr.

Speaker, it is very difficult to answer a question First of all, Waste Disposal Committees are set up and they charge a fee for service; that is under the direction of my ··372

March 10, 1978 Tape 130 PK - 2 Mr. Dinn: han. colleague down there from Consumer Affairs and th.cEnvironment. o·Jviously if the people are ~Jorkinq in Clarenville and it is a legal tax, and under the Local Government Act,I guess,they are doing it, Clarenville is certainly not breaking the law, l4e are looking at a new municipal government bill right now that hopefully will change, you know, make some of the changes that you are talking about.

But right now the old Local Government Act allows a municipality to charge a service fee,and certainly if there is a Waste Disposal Committee in Hillview - if a Waste Disposal Committee is set up obviously the Waste Disposal Committee can collect dollars for a service • I'R. F. RO\·JE: • IJ.. s upp 1 ementary, :•tr. Soeaker. MR. SPEAKER: I will allow one supplementary and then the han. member for Port de Grave. That will be the final question. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, can the present Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, and the former minister, the member for Green Bay (Mr.

Peckford),can they remember me asking this question over the past two or three years? They indicated' there was an obviously flaw in the regulations at that particular time and they ~Jere going to try and straighten it up im1':ediatel_v I was wondering what progress have been made in trying to straighten that regulation up so that we do not have double taxation, and in this case triple taxation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. 373

:!arch 10,1973 Tape lJl :'.!o-1 il?.. :·ilJ?-PL.'Y: c•:r. Speker, if I may? A ~ :aste Visposc;.l Commii.:tee has been mentionetl, ~o;hich is purely a voluntary ccmmittee and is formed for one purpose only, to collect the garbuge that the ~eople put out and to look after it. So basically what vTe can do about it I do not know. It is not ours, there is no fun<lir1;; in it, tne people just collect from each neighbour to pay the costs. :m. SPEAKER: Order please! The han. member for Port de Grave. HR. DAw"E: i·ir. Speaker • I \·IOul<.l like to direct a question to t:1e han. :uni3ter of Hines and Energy.

Could r:1e lilinister indicate to the House, baseJ on present estimatea capital costs of the Jevelop!i!ent of the Lm.rer Churchill, at what rate this pOiver <Jould have to 9e sold :o aJ!tortise the costs for the u .;:velo;)Tn;•nt •Jf the Lower Ghurcilill? EK. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister, ; iR. PECKFOP.D : :-rr. Speaker, it would depend upon a num:Oer of facturs and t:terefore any anS\TE.r l1as to be one which is conditionc;.l upon what factor you are talking about.

If you are talking about bringing 800 megawatts to the Island and selling t:1e other 31)0, ti1en you will have one fee t:!'Jat you can charge t~1e consumers of the Province of Newfoundland. If you have all of it coming back to the Province,some of it being used industrially and corumerically anci other of it being used domestic a lly, then you mizht :1ave another rat~. So it Hill depend upon ltO\v t he cevclopuent L:. c a rr:.ed Ol!t.

T.te non:1al practice that w~ are follO\ ·Iine; th>?.t you itave an export of half tl\e power, t:1en you woulcl be talk in~ a.bout somewhere in th ·~ r an;:;e of t Yrenty-five mils for t:tc p .... 'V ~ ..;r ~ 1.ere on t he Islu .ncl . Dut that is a fi::;ure which can c!;ant;e, based C!\ escalation and ti1'" capit:J.l cost and based upon .,.hether or not ti'lis split "~<ill ;,e 300 anJ 300. On th~ traditional way of lookin3 at Gull Island, and that is having 300 megawatts come back to the Province or be !ed in Labrador and in the Island,and th~ other 300 being exported 374

:•!arch 10,1978 Tape No. 131 Ali-2 fR. PECKFOR.J'): at a re<.sor.a.!Jle aarket value price, then you are looking at somewhere in the mid-twenty range r.lils-wise for t;,e power to the domestic cor_sumer in the Provine.:. :.IR. PECKFORD: ~IR. SPEA:~R: the Address in Reply. :rr.. ::n: .. \.RY: ORDERS OF THE DAY Orders of the day, }!r. Speaker. Order No. (1). Xo. (1) the adjourned debate o~ the amendment ;:;; i1on. member for LaPoile. :!r. Speaker, first of all I 1~ant to apolo::ize to the bon. House fer the condition of my voice today. I do not i1ave larynp,itis, ;1r. Speaker.

I consulted 'tl"ith my pl1ysician before I came into the house, the hon. gentl€1-.:tan on the opposite side, my o1m personal physician confirmed that I do not ;1ave laryngitis, that I have the flu t~1at is on the ~o. It is not a result of rny speaking yesterday fc. r one hour and a tlalf or so. But I hope the House uill bear wit\1 me today if my voice sounJs '' little raspy, Sir, it is something over which I have no COLltrol. There is not<1ing I can do about it. ~·!y physician told me that it mmld take about a week before you get over the flu and there is nothing I could take today that woulJ improve my voice.

So. hon. ~entleman are going to :1ave to have to put up with the condition of ~•Y voice. Hr. Speaker, yesterday before the House rose at six o 1 clock, before we finished the Late Show, Sir, I was going uown the line and pointing out to t;1e !louse and to the people of t;tis Province examples of e.;;travagance anci "aste and ne;;li3euce on the part of the administration and the poor relationship bet1-1een tllf! Province and the Goverm:1ent of C:ma~a. After I went outsic.le the House soJtlebody asked me if I could give a coup:e of illustrations, could I te QOre specific today. Well, :fr.

Speaker, I might say just starting off though that I must of really gotten to the members yesterday because two or three of the members - and this seems to be 1vell orchestrated- took to the radio stations in Central and 375

:.:arch 10,l970 T2.pe ::o. 131 ;,;;-] :IR. :lEA . .tl.Y: Western ~le\vfoundla:J.d this Iilornii~~ to say that ~- l ea.r y is ~vastin~ thi! tllu.e of the House. ~fr. Speaker, that is completely untrue as Your Honour k:u.e<>s. The duty of the Opposition in this House, Sir, is to get information out to c;1e r1eople. The people in the press gallery i~ve a very cirave responsibility of makin3 376

~:arch 10, 1973 Tape 132 EC - l ~T •• ~lEARY: sure that information that is brought out in this r:ouse, especially if it involves extravagance and waste, scandals of one kind and another - and according to the 'phone calls and the things that are being dropped in my mail box these days there is probably another gigantic scandal on the ~.1orizon that as soon as the proper documentation is put in my mail box by some anonymous person "ho has ':leen nutting bits and J)ieces of p:1per there nmv, then I shall have to as a part of tzy duty and mv obligation ann resoonsibility as a mereber of this House, and it is the resoonsibility of any other member, to see that this information is brought to tT1e floor of the Fouse and then communicated through the media to the people of this Province.

That is what we are here for, ''r. Speaker. ~:e are not here. Sir. to be dummies. Fe are ;1ere to try to do a job in the best interests of the people of this l'rovince. And as I indicated, '"r. Sneaker, the press, the ne>·IS media, the people in the press gallery, have a very serious and a very grave responsibility to make sure that infor1112tion and things that are discussed in this House get out to the people, not only, '!r.

Speaker, once in a while in the heat of del:> ate - and fortunately it ':as not ':aooened so far this session, except that t'1e '~inister o~ "'ourism yested.ay took rather personally somet:1ing I >vas saying lvhen I <Vas tal~dng about the minister's capacity as ~· finister of Transportation and Communications. And if you are a minister you have to ~e prepared to take criticism.

".nd the minister got rat!1er personal. ~ut a]Jart frOT'> that little personal, that little sour note that ""s interjecte~. by the ~·inister of Tourism there has been no nane cal lin~, ~ir, in t'-!is session of the House, no natr.e calling to my knm.;] e dg e. Ther~ ua s very little last year, and if there is any name calling, Sir, it is coming from t~e other side of the Rouse and not from this hon. side. }1R. NURPRY : Read your own speeches (Inaudible) The hon. member (Inaudible) HR. ~lEAFY : There were t>-10 of my your.g children sit tin~; in the gallery one tine in ~ere, ''r. Speaker - 377 , .. •.·

Tape 132 Er. - 2 AN HON • ~!EHBER: Oh, no! Not that again~ ~m.. }!EARY: - and I am going to tell it again because it should be on the han. merrber's conscience to the day he goes to his grave. l !R. ~fL1'.PHY : (Inau_dible) member's conscience - name ••as brought up (Inam1ible) ~~r. Speaker, through brute !'orce, Sir, I ,,ms suspended from the 1·louse for five days. It was purely political, it was partisan politics, Sir, because I accused the ''inister of Finance at the time, the han. Hr.

John Crosbie, Esquire, of conflict of interest because he h2d heen secretary of a company, r.adens, he had l,een secretary of that company tt>at bou6ht ~ison !lre•very out in Sterhenville "hile !"le was ''inister of Finance, nnr t!1ey for~nve the social security tRx '"tnd t!"le tax on heer that Pas o•-1ed 'Jy that co!!!pany 1 and I accused the minister at t'"le time of conflict of interest. And as a result of my doin~ a job for the people of this Province, I got a five day suspension - brute force, majority carried in the House by the people on the other side.

And while I ,.,as sitting outside the rail, Sir, ,.,ith t~-ro of my children,visiting the public gallery, who do you think, vr. Speaker, ~vho do you think was the gentleman who got up in this House and made one of the most vicious personal attacks on me that I have ever seen made on an han. member in this House? Vicious personal attacl:, pure venom! ~.:ith t"o of my youn~ c'ftildren sittin2; in the gallery! And then that ?entleman just noints the finp;er across the Pause and s<:>.id, '"~.ead your mm speeches.' I •·mul~ sue:gest to the 'fton. gentleman that that han. p;entleman read his o>m speeches.

So I hope, Sir, that the media - AN RON. !\FT'ffiE'R: 1-.'ha t are you talkin? about there, 'Steve'? l'R. NEARY: I am talking about the han. '·linister of Consumer Affairs, "ho is responsible for garbage in this 378

'!arch Hl, 1978 '~. 'lEARY: _1\N FON. J:E~':BER: c'R. :lEARY: Tape 132 ;;:c - 3 Province and in the House. I l•70uld say those are Hasted <vords. '.!r. Speaker, I Hould hope, Sir, that the gentlemen of the press <vill not be suc!~ed in, e,ven though so"'e of them have bee:t -,;ined and dine<i in Europe · in the best bistros, in the best hotels and the best 379

::arc:1 10, 1973 Tape :;o. 133 ~;- 1 HR. :mARY: restaurants in Europe and North .\merica, I hope, Sir, they will not be sucked in, that they will not only report every name calling of any kind that goes on in the !louse. Hr. Speaker, sometimes I wonder what you have to do in this House. Do you have to get out in the middle of the floor and do a strip-tease7 because that seems to be the o'nly type of thing that is reported. lir.

Speaker, the press have a very heavy res;:,onsibility to communicate to the peopl<! of this Province, to report, and I am sorry to say, Sir, that the reportin3 of the last f~v years has not been the best. ;<ow some are good, some are bad. I will not get into names. Some are pro Premh'r. The Premier can do nothing -~rong. Hy hon. friend, the Leader of the Opposition, 1rill 3et up and ask some pretty hefty questions in connectim. >~ith the financial condition of this Province,and ... ,hat :uoppens? The CBC reporter will take the Premier out in the co::ridor, say, "}!r.

Prer~ier, is this true?" And the Premier Hill say, "No, of course it is not true." And then he will go on and ~ake a political speech and then that is pumped out on the CBC that evening as p.2rt of t':le conventional wisdo'll of t:1e Tory Party, as gospel. SO!-!E ~{ON . NE>fBERS : Hear, hear! :JR. "'EARY: No research done on it. : !11.. ;!ORCA.'!: Do not tell any lies. :·lR • N L \ !'tY : :<o research done, hardly a mention of the Le.E.der of the Opposition. I do not know .vhether tl:e Lee.der •.ve.s l·<].. :cOP.G;\.1.'!: Uho is the Leader? I'lL :~E.? ...

RY; Sor.letimes t~1.ey m~n.tiou the people ~.;l1o ask t h e question, soraetimes they do not. ::ut out in the corridor, who do you see? The ministers propped up, high and m:' c;h1:y in front of the tel.avison sets, "Look, t!:te Lead~r of the 'Jpposition, tr.e 380 •r

:.arch 10, 1978 Tape i~o. 133 if!~ - 2 oeiT~er for Sa~le Rivar, the oe3ber for Conception Day South asked you a question today about So-and-So. __ Well what do you think of that?" "Oh, I think the member for Conceptio·n Bay South or Eagla River are full of baloney because it is not true." ~. o research, they just accept that as being ;ospel. Is that the kL1d of reportin;;, Sir, that this l!ouse should Ge getti~g? : :>~. ::or ..

GAl!: Are you saying it is unfair? ::r. .SJ.:ea:.:.er, I have u.o doubt at all th:;.t l;afcre a question is put to a minister on tl1e otl1er side of tl:e :louse that "'Y han. friends on this side do tl1eir home•wrk. They have a fair idea of the topic of t:1e information that they are trying to get, ~<ilich tl1ey 11ope will be co=unicated to the ~eople of this I'J:oVi:lce. Th~y have done t~.:ir horueuork. ::tey :1ave the infor:nation.

J\lt they nf!ver 3;et a c;,ance, they neverJ never, aever, never get a chance, Sir, to let the people knm; because t<:ey are stymied ~y this foolish procedure that is followed, especially by the CBC. The private networks,you could understand them trying to cuddle up to the Premier to get a bit of ad•1ertising for themselves and that is why you hear these people saying, "Oh, :'leary is abusing his privilege in the House of Assembly because he got unlimitad time." I have no intention of taking unlimited ti:nz. I am going to take my time.

I am not going to malce a speech that confor!!lS t'lith somebody who is hosting an open-line progra=e. I a.:1 going to make my speech t:1e way that I fe<:.l lE:e it in accordance \vitl1 the rules of the llousa, and Your i!onour r1as ruled that I aw in order. I am not out of order. I did not bully Your £ionour. I did not bully You"i: I!onc.ur. I clid not ask Your Honour for extra time. I only am speaking in accordance with the rules of the House. 38:1

March 10, 1978 Tape 134 PK- 1 Mr. Neary: And yet my han. friends, my hon. friends this morning could not resist taking to the airwaves on another scurrilous personal attack in Central and Western Newfoundland. The Minister of Health usually does not resort to that type of tactic, Sir, but I must have really gotten to him yesterday when he took to the Open Line this morning in Central Newfoundland to again personally attack me.

Well members on the other side can criticize me all they like for the amount of time that I take to make speeches in this House, and to bring out information, and I hope that I will bring out another bit before we adjourn today, and next week I hope to uncover a gigantic scandal if I get the proper documentation; if not that will be the end of it,as my hon. friend knows. I never shoot from the hip, I always have the information before I let her go.

And so I am going to make my speeches here the way that I want to make them, and not the way that the people ,.,ho :1ave oeen wined and dined in Europe and who have been converted, who would like to have~ representative in both parties, one in the LibeEal Party and one in the Tory Party, I am not going to conform to that, I am not going to fall into that trap, Sir. AN RON. MEMBER: Would you permit a question? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman will have all kinds of time to ask - MR. MORGAN: Are you (ina~dihle). MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I am saying, Sir, I am saying this, if the han. gentleman will just follow what I am saying maybe it will filter through, maybe it will filter through, but what I said, Sir, and I will repeat it for the han. gentleman, if the hon. gentleman wants to hear it. I can understand the private media, treading lightly, treading softly because of the favours, the little bit • l , of advertising they get. SOME RON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Could Your Honour ask the han. gentleman to restraint himself, Sir? 382 ~ I. '

March 10, 1978 Tape 134 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG) Order, please! I must remind hon. gentlemen to my left that a member has the prerogative to be heard in silence when he is speaking. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: But the national television, Sir, the CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that is suppose to be so fair and so broad-minded they should not have to kowtow the Premier or any minister of this House.

The taxpayers of Canada are pumping a half a billion dollars, $500 million into that Crown corporation, and we think that we should be getting equal treatment, fair treatment, that is all we are asking for. We are not asking for any favours, Sir. I never asked for a favour from a ~ews media or a newsman in my life, and I never will, and if they do not feel like carrying my material they do not have to. MR. MOP.GAN: Who is asking favours now? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I am criticizing the procedure that is used in connection with the Question and Answer Period. The person who asked the question should have some rights. And that is why I am suggesting, Sir, that the television cameras, in order to clear this matter up, in order for the people to see what goes on in this hon. House, and it is not all bad, the television cameras should be brought in on the floor of the House, and the radio stations should be allowed in on the floor of the House. The han. administration are afraid, they are afraid, Sir, to allow even a one month experiment with the Oral Question Period.

They are afraid, they are too cowardly. The han. gentlemen are too cowardly to allow the television cameras to come in and televise the Oral Question Period which is only a half an hour a day. Mr. Speaker, the morning before last when I was driving up here I heard something that almost turned my stomach, and that was this gentleman who was wined and dined all over Europe coming out and 383 .. j

March 10, 1978 Tape 134 PK - 3 Mr. Nearv: saying, Oh do not put the television cameras in the Bouse because all you will see is F•eeman White picking his nose . And that very same gentleman is the same gentleman who says, All they do up there is name call and attack one another personally, and character assassination. Well , what would you call that? Wbat would you call that, Mr. Speaker? ·Trying to belittle my colleague from Lewisporte (Mr. White) . ·. 384 j; ,. li '

. ~ :·larch 10, lgi::J Tape ~io. 135 ;<;[ - l :m. iil~ARY: if he does not like the cut of his jiiJ, let hil:!J. say so. If he does not like his policies,let h:il!l say so. But do not attack people personally. And I i1ope the hon. mecber for Bonavista South (Mr .. :•!organ) does not take my re!Ilarks about his inco:apetence as Hinister of Transportation and Colll!llunications, and his ro~1 that he had with his counterpart in Ottawa, I hope the minister does not take that personally. :·!R. :~~O!<..G.tlr: <~~ways stay out· of rows ,,;ith Ottcn;a. Always stay out of it. Fight for this Province!

There si1ould be more fighting for this Province, not crawling to Ottawa, begging to Ottawa. Fight for your rights~ :IR.. NEAR"!: }!r. Speaker, perhaps I can get back now J to l<here I left off then yesterday because the han. gentleman '1as interrupted !!le.

I am :tot coming down - I '"ant to i'\a;·:c it clear, Sir, I al!l 110t cor.ting down like a ton of brick on the n~eclia but I do hope that they will report, report, re:Jort tite proceedings of the aouse, not rush in at a quarter to four and say, "Oh my God, I have got to have a tape done by four o 'clock"without even sitting in the Uouse and listening to the debates; rush in, cold off the street, get a minister up or grab somebody up, hurry up, get him up in front of the television 1- camera,,- operating on a shoestr~~g! - back to the station, and that night you get the proceedings, the report of the proceedings of t:1e :louse for that day.

Is that not something, 1;r. S:Jeaker? The report, prcbably about twenty seconds. And there are some · ,,ery iwportant things tr.2nsaeted in ~his House on both sides. All the bad fcllm·'s are not over there and all the good fellm;s are not over here. I would say we are pretty v.•cll divi,:cc. .. ~~e have the good and the bad as far as debate is concerned, as far as bringing out information is concerned. All the bcod fellows are not on one side and all ~~e bad fellows on the other.

And I ~m not trying to lecture the press as to how they should do t:1eir job, but t~1ey shoultl r~por~ more than just a snide re:.tz.r-:: that is Jl.:lde across t:1e Clouse at someiJody, or an insult th.:1t is hurled at 385 , .

'!<J.rcil 10, 1973 Tnpe ~~ ~. l35 :oornabody or a ?ersonal .J.ttack tf1at is made on ·;;omebod.y. ~"!y han. friend is back in his seat now. I peri1aps will end up r'lY few remarks on this paticular aspect of my speech I:Jy again going back to the day I was sitting outside in t:1a S ,)eake:;: '.o Callt:r~· t;-.ere llhen one of the mast vicious personal attacks ever made on a member of this aouse was made by the lton. gentleman with I!!)' t1vo young daugi:1ters sitting up in the gallery. $250,()00 to ;;at yourself elected~ Order, ?lease! :IR.. NEARY: ~lr.

Speaker, the kind o£ infon:Jation that I a:n trying to brin,; out in this hon. Uouse, t!-.:.~ kinc..l of inforiililtion is the kind of information that I hope that the han. :;entleman r;rho is responsible for garbage will be alJle to ';.)rovide me ~vith. :;:;_L :ruru>HY: I l1ave no control over you <'lhatever. ?IlL L~:uRY: :Ir. Speaker, I hope tl1at the han. gentlem.:m will be able to provide me 1vith some information, and the people of this Province l-!R. :·rrrRP:IY : im.y you "ant. :!R. NEA..l<.Y : - and the press with some information on Affiliated ~Iarine Metals. :1R.

HURP:IY: The most co!lllllunicative ;:ainist~r in the Cabinet. l1R. Ni:ARY: ~rr. Speaker, Affiliated t-:arine :·Ietals - :·.:E.. :£TRP:IT: I uill have you over for dinner some day. l.P~. clEARY: Affiliated l·hrine ~ietals, Sir, if l10n. members •.;ill recall, Has a company that was set up by l:'JO ~entle.le:l.

JY t:1e name of Smith I oelieve, and :lulalley) S'Olith being a Toront.:mian and Hulalley being a Newfoundlander. }!ulalley later, because I kept a record of the share list in the Registry office, for a long time l"iulally did not show on the share list at all but eventually he did and the company was set up as a result of these ~wo ~entlemen meeting ·. 386

:·'.arch iO , 1978 Tape :;o . 135 :~l- J on t he Queen ; II ~hen the ~on . tJe - And you r cood friend John s:lahaen . :m. t.JE.ARY: - when the lion . the !'reeder and the hon . Hr . Crosbie a nd the hon . i1r. ili clana.n. and a ll t he other ministers 1-lho are not~ cond emning :tr. Saaheen :md kni£ins him in t he b ac~ receptio:; down there a:1d the P::a:rl!<r ofhcial1y ot:ened t he oil r!!f ina..ry at ::et·.e :y .;~. ance . So it: lvas on t:;le :"lt:een :i II that :rul.allay and Smith met . A:ld the::t they formed a company calle d :.ffilia ted !·~rir.e ::etals .

And t lten they persua ded the SOYerr.ner:t to FUt a t:ollar on all ~icences in ~le·..tfou::..il :t:td :;o ::hat thac company coulC: ~o :1round ::ewfoundl and and collect car 1;•recks . :1 0~1 so fa r, Sir, I think I have i)een ::~.i:rl y :actual, :10 i :muen co, no personal at::ad:.s. ·•o . 7~ta t is 387 '·· . ~ j ' •· .. -l ~.

:larch 10,1978 Tape No. 136 All-1 ~!R.. ~:EARY: Now, Nr. Speaker, ~<>e told sometime ago by the bon. minister that that company ;;as no longer collecting; car ~rrecks. I believe Chey were in financial difficulty according to the reports I read in the neuspaper and the questions I asked the Minister of Consumer Affairs in the last session of the House. But •~e a::e still collecting the dollar, we are still taking that dollar. Yes, :--rr. Speaker, I paid my :Iollar, I paid r::y dollar, Sir. :m. ;fiJR}'HY: Give 1:1e Che receipt for that dollar ami I 1dll give you the dollar back. :-tR. :~EARY: Nr.

Speaker, do I ur.clerstand t ;1e clan. gentleman is saying that they are no longer collecting that dollar and that all the people from whom it has been collected ·.dll be refunded? :tR. clUHPHY: You give :ne a receipt for one dollar on behalf of car v.--recks and I will give you a dollar back. :!R. ~IOLAN: You have raised the license fee. :-Ir. S;>eaker, the zovern .. "llent raised t:1e lice""''" fees.. rlow Uense if the hon. 3-zntle;-:laa? ::R. :·iliP..Ph'Y : P..aised a dozen UP ... i~EARY: fulised it by one dollar. Go bacl~ to hansard, tlr. Speaker. ;IR. all?

EGRPF..Y: Have you got anyti1in;; to add to the Frcvi1.ce at That is the fifth time you are after sayin,; that. This is what Bas Jamieson is talking about. :-!R. ~EARY: I :1ope one of our research assistants, Sir, is listenin:.; to me and he ~~ill go back to ;{aasard ar:d find out W:len t:1e anr.:our:ce;:aent was =de on that dollar. It ''as put on for an inclefinit::! period of ti;ae. There <·las no time limit put on it ami it lvas ~ut on to ;ay off this cor.:pany £or coll;ctiLg ca.::: ~•reeks. No,., I do not care whether Ar. :·Iulalley is a Tory or 1·1hether l1e is a Liberal.

It so happens that he is a staunch Tory but he is a Newfoundlander. ~ !R. :·ITJRPHY : He is a good,sensible fellow. 388

:2rci1 10,1978 Tape :·To. 136 .~.'l.E-2 A good sensible fello~1! !le is a :;ood TcrJ. God bless him for it,I \voulci. say. The man cannot help it if he is on the \vrong side. HR. ~IURPHY : The hon. gentleman was a great Tory once, he ~was a great ~p ,and now he is a great Liberal. One thing ,I was never a Tory unci I will n~oer be ~sh.:uueci. that I was an "DP and that I ran l~P. I will :tever be ash=ed of that-But I ~;as never a great TorJ. llr. Speaker, t:1e question t;nt I \va:tt ::o put to t:,e :10n. gentleman l.S this.

I am told~ and the stories are :::~aking the rounds,that when the company was formed,and it vias incorporated at the time by the Tory bagman, at tl1at time and i1as since been deposed like the ~!inister of Transportation a~cl Cormaur..ica tior::::, the; Tory bagman has got the :\.o;t:al Order of the Boot. Or:e 0-uy I sc:.t do~ .. :n in t!'!e Premier's private C.inL11.g rocm and had lunch 1>'itl1 i1in: and I heard all about t:1e bagw.an, :,ean.l all about him.

And then the ~agman Ca@e to see we and I heard all about the Premier from him,and both of t~1em v7ill be to see me very shortly,before this thing is all over. It was the bag­ man that incorporated the company, a nice little cozy affair. T~1en I am told that eititer some money was either borroroed from ti1e bank or was owed to the bank. Is the han. gentleman listening to me because I l·mnt to get the ans-;.·er? ;rr.

Speaker, tl"le story ti"lat is making the rounds is this: The Tory bagman went on the back of a note for Affiliated l'larine :·ktals aud wi1en they ran into financial difficultie.s t:12 ::;overmr;ent bailed out the Tory bagman and their Tory supporter •,!ho o~·med t:lis comfany by paying off the bank. "'mv I wfl!!.t to knoH from the minister if that is true or false? 1;01; is the tiue to straighten it out. Is this correct or is it not correct? HR. l·fURPHY: This is not question period but I will say to you that it is no more your business than it is mine whatever transaction bet~•een an individual anci his bank.

Phone t'le bank~ 389 . I

:urcil 10 ,1 978 :-~pe .\o . 13\i ..:.ii- 3 .:R. :!LTJ>:-.1: :a. XEAlY: r!r. Speaker, if : here is public ::one~· involv ed then it is the ilusiness of ~very nemi>er o:: chis \ton . Hous e . Uear, hear! I am nor interesred in :tr . Eululley ' s !lrivace business . ~nethe r he sells or did sell liquor to :he government , t~>l t l:e hau a li~uor agency , ! ac no c L"lterested i n t!mt . I c:Wu;sht it was only Libe r als who C: i<l tltat . I ti1o u~ l1 c ic was only L~be r als v1ho bad liquo r agencies .

Sue apparently there are a few IoriP.s around wi10 i~ve li<>.uor agenc ies nr.d who are ;:-ushiu~ t:1eir prod uct in the liquor ou: l c t s . :ir . S-peaker , to zo ~a ck to c:1e question a~~ . the crucial questi on is t his : 1 would like to ;et d reaction fro~ the ~nister 390 • , ..

Tape 137 EC - 1 HR. :·TF'.~_!'V: and I would gladly yield my seat to give the minister a chance to answer the question, and then I ~dll carry on with my sneech. Is it correct tl-,at the government, usin!': this dollar or public money, got the party bagman off tl1e hook by paying: off the loan'~? Is t:.1at correct? -.,.. :'l.T:"~rEY: }fay I, Mr. Speaker? MR. NEARY: Hould the han. mer;:ber yield? ~? .... 'TITJ'''Y: Just to put t:"!.e recorC.s straight. ''T',. ::E ~-~ . .Y: Just to put the recorr!s straight, ·rr.

Spcal~er. '~ .... . ~r_r:.~:"l~~: recause there is so L~uc:l. that c.ov.es out of this ''ouse and I ;:-et a little worried sometimes at lies and :1alf-truths and the lil:e, Sir. .'.s far as I = concerned, Hhen I became :·inister of r:onsmr.er A.ffairs ~ took over Affiliated ~-rarine ::etals. And they had a contract with government at which they were paid, I think, $27.5') to collect cars from thither and yon, of ~~hich they collected, I would say, in the area of 24,1'lrJO cars. In the agreement ~-ms written that tmtil the cars were flattened and !':hipped out of this Province- was it 20 per cent or 25 per cent?

Hell, whatever it ~vas, 20 per cent or 25 per cent would be >vithheld. In other l•mrds, insteai! of being paid $27.50 per car, most of them are in at the Octagon now, as the !:on. gentle~an knoWS, they "Tere only paid approximately $21. ')().

So if they had been able - and the bottom went out of the market - if they hnrl O,een able to ship, I ,.,ou_ld say there is about $l<:il) ,nnn •1orth of inventory in there now that they could have turned into C1l.sl-J; but because of the fact there is no market for it, it is still in there and as far as I know there is not one cent being paid to Affiliated . , ~ ~'arine ~~etals only that S21.00 for collecting these cars ''hich are here, in Corner Brook and so on. So that it is to the best of my 1-:nmdedge and he lief and I have been minister for the past two years. ~oes that satisfy the han. member? '- 391.

:!arch 10 , 19 78 Tape 137 EC - Z The bank . As -ar as the bank is concerned, if any of these gentlemen are having trouble wit" the bank. that is t he±r business , o-ur as far as I am concerned,an out o f ~he f un~s of my depar~2nt,there has not heen one cent paid to t he ank o ~ail anvbody out. -~' ~o re than t hat I cannot - :!'l.. J: fl..Y; l'lell :lr. oea':er, just to p.et or. t~e publi c record to :nake s ure that I undet"Stand the minister correctl y . ~16fl , .. 'J is being h<ithheld .

PHY : Ap(>roximately, I •,zoulrl say in that area . . pproximately $160 , nn is ein2 •·rith he1d f"com f ~ i liare d .'arine :·e cals aven t hough £filiated :·arine hava s old t \~i r in ventory, turr..ec! t !\eir in,·ento ry over to t!le banl'. !> O C:.at the bank is responsible now for the invento ·ry, and the overr.J:lent ~ as Slf1,0 ~ i n ~ and - is that correct? :IT! . 1!UllPt!Y : That could h aopen . . ~rally and any other 1-1ay, if they ~~ould ship these cars out tomo-rrol~, in my opinion as ainister, they would e entitled to receive the balance t hat .. as wi-thheld for every car 1:reck that ;;e shipoed out of the Province . !<ell, l-!r .

Spea.l(e r , we are mating a li ttle b'it of progress; ~-1e are ge ttin~ a little bit of infomation out of the hon . gentleman . ' !P.. ~:URl' tY: hat is not progress . ! h.ave made t ha.t s tata Dient at least ten times. Do not try to dis tort t '1e facts. •-r . S eake r if t he ~on . ?.entle r.zn Hould just restrain hims elf - ::R. ~ ffiPHY: no, I just like peop le to be honest - once in their lives to be : onest. ~ - ~lEARY: - and if the hen . entleman would keep his savage hatred to himself and just try to remember that the hen. gentlem;m is a minister of the Cro•m - Yes. 392 . .': ~;. " f .i..· i t

:•a rc."l 10 , 1976 'IR . :;F.AllY: ::R. '1JP.PlfY: :1L :'EARY: .. ~ . ':t'R!'f!Y: .. '"? .• ··~\.,"tY: tll!mbers whether he likes it or not. Tape 137 -a Oueen 's minis ter- ~igh t. - a menhe r of :he P.ouse - And proud of i t . rc - 3 and ~st deal Mith the ~pposition ~[;' . ''t'Pl'!fY : ?il!~ t: dec~n t or ot~er.·:ise . :m. ::rA~Y: The ~on . ~entlell'.an is r:ot an island unto hir.-self . T.te bon . gen tlel!la!l is pan of a Jaove rnc:ent that has to. give this t:ous e iniorc:ation .

And that is •ma t I an tryinlt to co , I am erving to pry as ,ar c as I can some info ~-ation out of t,e !:on . gen tleman. :•o~" . ' 'r . Speal:er • .,auld t!le "ton . ~ent:ler.an oleese t ell me if the !!overnment,or if t=-.e hanl: ':las ·-,-! <toy r ro~osals ir. r~c~nt tinP.s, 1.r. t~e l.ast ·-ear , to rer:ove thes e cer ''r ect:s . tl" 1•uv the~':! r.:tr .. r <!c';s . to brin~ i:t a rJlC 1~ine to cr11sh t!le cars? """' if SO , HOlUcl th~ t:liOiSt!> t: tell t!1e llOus~? "ny;,P. :he r>ir.i ster COeS not ~ave the infom.ation nou - ~is is no t Question Period . - •··hy t"e propos;o..l ~,.as r ej ecccd?

And . .,auld the r.~inisce r also t:ell the l!ouse - ''r. Sp ea!t e~, t his m:ty oe o.f some inte r est . And I Hou.td say !'1;. ~ 'ullaley, uho I l-nc1., is a fi:l e ge~tle:-mn - ls ~ -r. 'fullale;t 393

March 10, 1978, Tape 138, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: on the government payroll at the present time? Would the minister confirm or deny that? MR. MURPHY: That is right, and another gentleman. MR. NEARY: And the oth,er gentleman who was part of that company, is that gentleman on the payroll too? MR. MURPHY: Right. MR. NEARY: Well, would the minister tell us what Mr. Mulalley's position is with his department? MR. MURPHY: Actually - MR. MORGAN: Ask it in Question period. MR. NEARY: What is the position? What is Mr. Mulalley's position with the minister's department? The minister does not know? MR. MURPHY: Yes, I know.

I know all about it. MR. NEARY: Well, would the minister tell me,because I would like to know? MR. MURPHY: No, I am not going to tell you. I would not tell you anything. I would not give you the correct time if I had an arm full of Bulovas. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman, even though he may not like me, Sir. MR. MURPHY: I do not mind you. You are all right if you were under a stone anywhere. MR. NEARY: The hon. g entleman cannot sit in his seat. Even though he may squirm and twist and turn at the questions I am asking - MR. MURPHY: I never squirmed anywhere in my lifetime.

Thanks be to God my conscience is as clear as a newborn baby' s • MR. NEARY: - I think as a matter of courtesy to the people of this Province the minister should 394

.. _ March 10, 1978, Tape,l38, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: now tell the House - I am sure there are other members who are curious to know - what Mr. Mulalley's position is with the minister's department. MR. J. CARTER: I cannot hear you, speak up. MR. NEARY: What is Mr.. Mulalley' s position? Would the minister tell me? Is Mr. Mulalley working with Consumer Affairs Branch of the minister's department? MR. RIDEOUT: I do not see why he should not say. MR.NEARY: Is Mr. Mulalley working with the Department of the Environment? Is Mr. Mulalley working with the Insurance Branch of the minister's department? MR.

MURPHY: No, he is selling building supplies on Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thought it was only the Liberals who did these things? MR. MURPHY: What things? MR. NEARY: I thought the minster responsible for the car wrecks, Sir - I heard the hon. gentleman, Sir, when he was on this side of the House say that the Liberals were the only ones who did these things. MR. MURPHY: I always tell the truth. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell us in all seriousness what Mr. Mulalley's job is with his department. MR. MURPHY: Question Period is over, I think, is it not? MR.

NEARY: Is the hon. gentleman ashamed to tell me? That is the second - MR. MURPHY: No! no! I was never ashamed 395 ,.

,.,- March 10, 1978, Tape 138, Page 3 -- apb MR. MURPHY: life, thanks be to God. MR. NEARY: of anything I did in my The hon. gentleman should be proud of it because Mr. Mulalle~ I am sure,is a very able man. And, Mr. Speaker, I want to make it abundantly clear in this House, Sir, that I am not ~idiculing Mr. Mulalley because he is a Tory. It is a democratic country we are living in. It is a democratic country, Sir, but I do hope, Mr. Speaker, I do hope that no government, no minister who was so critical of the former administration would dare take a man on the payroll because he is a staunch Tory supporter.

I hope that government would not do that. And that would be the last thing, Sir, that would enter my mind. The last thing that would enter my mind. So therefore, Sir, without ulterior motives, I wonder if the minister would not be good enough to tell me when he knows I do not have an ulterior motive, that I am terribly interested in Mr. Mulalley's position in life, and I would like to know what Mr. Mulalley's job is. MR. MURPHY: I would like to know if it is true that you have no ulterior motives? MR. NEARY: That is right, I have no ulterior motive other than I would like to know what Mr.

Mulalleyrdoesto justify the tax money that is collected in this Province, that does into general revenue and is paid out in wages to all the public servants of which Mr. Mulalley gets his share. I hope he gets a good salary. I hope the minist~r did not shortchange him. MR. MURPHY: No 1 no! MR. NEARY: Could the minister tell us what he does? What does Mr. Mulalley do? MR. MURPHY: need not worry. MR. NEARY: He is well looked after. You What does he do? Mr. Speaker, 396 ..

March 10, 1978, Tape 138, Page- apb MR. NEARY: is the minister ashamed to tell the House? First of all I think it might come as a little bit of a surprise, a bit of news for the hon. gentleman to find out \ 397 ' ..

March 10, 1978 Tape 139 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: that Mr. Mulalley had graduated from Affiliated Marine Metals and is now on the staff of the department for which he collected car wrecks. AN HON. MEMBER: Is that a fact? MR. MURPHY: Be the greatest tragedy ever occurred. MR. NEARY: No, Sir. No,it certainly is not. Well, Mr. Speaker, you will not see anybody over here getting personal. You will not see anybody over here, Sir, trying to attack anybody's character. I want to make it abundantly clear, Sir, that I have the privilege and the honour of being considered to be on a friendly basis with Mr. Mulalley.

And so therefore I do not see why the minister should hesitate in telling the House what Mr. Mulalley does for his salary. MR. MURPHY: !~ell, he works. MR. NEARY: He works? MR. MURPHY: Yes. MR.NEARY: Very good,now we are making a bit of progress. MR. MURPHY: That is it. MR. NEARY: What does he work at? MR. MURPHY: At various things. MR. NEARY: Like what? MR. MURPHY: Such as. MR. NEARY: Such as, yes. And what is his salary? And further- more, Sir, MR. MURPHY: To be quite frank I have not the faintest idea what the gentleman is being paid.

It has all been approved by the commission that goes through and if he gave me even $2, I think that is a familiar figure to the gentleman, even if he gave me $2 I would not be able to tell you. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I hope Your Honour is paying attention , I to the innuendoes,and the dirt, and the snide remarks, and I hope Your Honour is paying attention to these, because, Sir, they are not 398

March 10, 1978 Tape 139 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: true as my han. friend knows, my han. Deposed and Rejected Minister of Transportation. But, Sir, let me get back on Mr. Mulalley. I do not want to get side-tracked, Sir. MR. MURPHY: Shall we get on with the debate (inaudible) MR. NEARY: Before the minister goes could the minister tell us if this job falls,as the minister so often said when he was over here, if this job falls within the ambit of the public service? AN RON. MEMBER: No1 he is going to wait for me to tell you . MR. NEARY: Does Mr.

Mulalley's position fall within the ambit,as the minister used to say, of the public service? Was the job advertised for? MR. MURPHY: Yes. MR. NEARY: Did everybody in the Province get a crack at it? MR. MURPHY: I do not know if everybody did. MR. NEARY: I see. Or was it a political appointment? MR. MURPHY: Okay. Carry on! MR. NEARY: Why does the minister just admit - that it was a political appointment, if that is what it was. Was it a political appointment? Was it, Mr. Speaker? Mr.

Sneaker, my han. friend so often on this side of the House hurled insults galore across at members and ministers and the former Premier of this Province. They used to say, Look 1you are a bunch of rogues, all you are doing is hiring on political hacks,the minister used to say, political patronage of the worst kind. That is when the minister was over here he used to say to us when we were over there .

Surely that minister, that minister who hurled so many insults at the opposite side of the House when the minister was over here as a member, and as Leader of the Opposition, surely that minister would not make a political appointment. MR. MURPHY: Certainly not. MR. NEARY: I would hope not, Sir. I would lose faith in human nature if that happened because the hon. member leaves the impression, 399 • 4 ,,

March 10, 1978 Tape 139 PK - 3 Mr . • earv: Sir , that he is so lily whit:e and Simon pure that all the bad fellows are over here, all the bad fellows are on Bell Island, there are no bad fellows down here in St . J ohn's, they are al l good fellows . They are all good fellows. And all the bad on es are across the Tickle . Surely tbe '1-linister of Manpower must really be shocked to bear that the last of the Puritans in this hon . House,wh o struts in with his hal o on his head every day. sur ely that minister would not

~larch 10, 1978 Tape :ro. 140 l!R. NEARY: make a political appoint::rnent. Does the hon. mel!lber for St. John's North (Hr. J. Carter) believe that? Hr. Speaker, can I go back and ask the minister once more or do I have to give up, or will I lose my voice altogether1 Or ~ill I have to wait until the ~ddle of next week? ~ffi.. ~!ORGAN: ;'1R.. :TEARY : Slow down, I suggest. ?:!r. Speaker, ·.:ill the minister IJ].ease tell me, and the other L<eiDbers of the House, what r~r. :·rulalley does? ~vhat his ;:>osition is? cfuat his title is? Has the job adv-:rtised for?

Did all ti1e unemployed people in ~lewfoundland \'ho could qualify for that job, did they have an opportunity to ·;,>pl:'? Or di<l •,re just ~1:2ve the layinc~ on of hands? :cr. Spe.:1ker, I can see that I an •cast in~ ::1y t~me. I 3.t'l not going to get the ans"t,.,.er. : :R. :-IORGA:-1: :ffi.. ~ mu':lY: worry <!.bout. ell>., NEARY: ?ut it on the Order Paper. It is not your time, it is our time \~e !1r. Speaker, yesterday azain, Sir - and I will come back to the mi~ister later on. The minister is sizzling enough now for one sitting.

I ,.•ill come back to the ;;on. gentleman later on ~dtn a few :nore <[UC!stio :ls that I :1aVP. for the han. ::,entlea2n. Anci I r.~ight tell the han. gentleua:u tl1at I •·\il ~<till not satisfied 1-.·it!--.. the anst.rer I t:ot on the fi:1u.ncing ~f t:1~t conFany . :~r. Spo:c.ker, I am. afraid tl1at -;.;ht:n the io~raer Tory bagman opens up~ when lJ.e opens up, there is 3oing to be a China ~;ill not be far enough for !'lalf of that crm~d to so. One thing about it1you :tever thinl; of ~Tewfoundland. ~ffi.. ~~EARY: No, Sir, I do not. I have very good reason in ti1is case. no-t'-" can you avoid it, :rr.

Spea~;:er? l!O\.J' can you a·~oid . 40:1

~IarcL1 10, 1978 Tape ~ ~o. 141J - 2 it? I will not mention his :1ame. :rr;.. :mARY: I understand they nave several. ~ir. Speaker, I =ders tand t:1ey have several baglllen, several. They have several, Sir, \"ho usa strong-an:~. t.:1ctic.s in t~e last election to raise a fe" dollars to get my hon. friend from St. John's North O~r. J. Carter) and his colleagues elected, the ·hon. oenber for Harbour :lain - Ilell Islo:L-u.l, strong-ar.n tactics. And, ;rr.

Speaker, if hon. :ne;.:bers thi:lk t:1at I a::l jokii'g all they have to do is look at what is happening in Public \lorks today. lfhat ~s happening in that investigation, :Ir. Speaker, or is it ouly the poor old tlelfare recipients that ::;e~ the boo~s put to c:1em? :·lr. Speakez:, vhat is happening to that investigation,now tZJ.at hon. gentle!ilen han; reminded l:le of it? It 11as been goiu;:; or. now since the last session of the House, the scandals in the Public 1-lorks Department. !!as the investigation been completed? The people of this Province,I ara sur~would like to knot·T. It is their money.

And maybe I am trrong, Sir, but I have a feeling that that information would be of some interest to the people of this Province. I believe it would be of interest to members of this House. Haybe the media are not plugged in. Eaybe t.'ley could r:ot care less. o!aybe if they did "-Ot have the information they •,;ould not put it out. I do not kno.,.... :~ybe they would.

Some of them are pretty good fello··•s. rlut ;.;hat is happening to that investigation, that RG!P investigation into the goings on in the Public :;orks Der2.rt:aent in conc.ection with a substanial a:nount of ta:<payers' dollars that ''as paid out to various and sundry contractors without calling public tenders1 Hhat has happened to thst investigation? Have charges been laid? Will charges be laid? Or is the whole matter just some exercise in futility? Is it a waste of time? Nobody is guilty or all he.nds are guilty, or the thing is beiag covereu up. '1hat is the situation? "''

:ta::c::: :..o. 1970 ~m- 3 ::r . Spea!:ar, am I t.rrong i:1. ass=in~ that t:lat k!.:-.d of info'L"ltat:.on is not ·.:hat the peop le of c~is ?rovince should know when it is t~ ei r r~ney. Did sooebody r ip off Pablic :lorks? I: c:~ey cid,they rippeci off t;1e 9eop le of this Province. Did they? Hr. ~pcak<:r , the only reason I am r~isin~ 1:: is t:11s - I ~o;ould nvt raise i~ at al l - ny only reas:~ !.s this, t ha t ru<:JOurs are flyinz, ruc:ours ara flying, Si~ and I A.~ HON . MEMBER: l:la! Ha! Ra! HR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hen . gentleman ha! ha! ha ! ,. 403 r I ~ •

:larch 10, 1978 Tape :"'a. 141 '\~: - 1 At least ~.;e knotv there is a bit of life in him an:y-Hay. Rumours are flying, Sir. ,!I.N HO~. HEH':IER: Anybody left up in the ~;1llery? !!R. )lEARY: l<o, that is right. They are listening. ~o not worry, they are listening. ~ey are listening. You need not worry. llr. Speaker, rumours are flyin~, Sir, and I think that these rumo:.:rs should be squelched. If ::!wr c~ is n J £J=dation, : rr.

Speaker, if there is no foundation to the rumours that th':!re is skuldug32r~· ~one on in t!1e Departr.~ent of Public Works, that contracts have been given witr .. out calling ;Jublic tei' .. der, that there has been a :J.isuse, an abuse of public funds, if that is so} Sir - Overpay:nents. - ovarpayments, e:xtrus, contract-3 a't:ar::led :.7it: :1out c.alliag i?Ublic tenders, i£ all t:1at happened, t~len, Si::, I '"onder if the llinis ter of Public l·iorks and Services could tell me if and when charges are going to be laid? Is the iilVestigation complete?

And if so,when can tve expect to get a rcpcrt in t:1is i1on. Eouse on that investigation involving millions of dollars, so I am told, in the Department of Public Harks? Or altematively, Sir, if everything is clean, if everything w·as above board, then we should kuo!·t , ~.,e should Ue told.

Zecause t:1e ~C EP, I understand, have spe:1t a lot cf ti'lle and taxpayers' dollars examininG the records of tile Department of Public ;larks and inves;tigatin::; the various and sundry COili~ aaiss .=.ncl it is not fair to these co!!lpanies,if t:l1ey are i:-.. nocer!t, to it.2.ve this hanging over their head. ':'he matter should be clea;::ed up at once and the ~-reak-knee'~ :rinister of Justice we have in this Province, or the l:I.inister of Public \-larks should tell us if the investigation is complete. If it is, is everybody clean?

Did everybody come up smelling of roses or was there a bit of skulduggery and charges '~ill be laid as a result of that skuldugger;? I think t:<at is a ?rett:y fair and 404

l·larch 10, 1973 Tape i~o. 141 :m 2 reasonabl..:! ·.1uestion and I hope .. Sir, that w~ '!en get t~e information. AnG, }~. Speaker, talking about skulduggery and scandals, last year I rasied the matter of the Scrivener affair over at the Health Sciences complex, at ~ler.1orial University. And, l~. Speaker, I laid certain Jocu..-"!lentation on the table of this hon. ::louse in connecti.on •,1ith t:•·•t allegec' sc:and<!.l. c!R. J. SARTE<~: Just enough to tantalize.

Just enough to tantalize the ton. ~entleoan. ·.lell =ybe loefore t:lis :>ession is over I >~ill lay a few more items on t!le table that may tantalize the hon. ~entleman Hho sits the;:-2 and supports an adm:!.nistration even tl1ou2;h the hon. zentleman ;:;ot t:-:.e loyal Clrd~r of the .Joot from the P':'emier ~vhen the ho::. gentlenan vTaS ::iniscer of Education. ae "as not rejected or deposed or den:oted; right out of the Cabinet altogether, ric~t off the eiz~th floor fur bein:E; so Victorian in the 1\on. gentle!:'.an 's thinking! .l.nd sitting there no,,• supporting an administration that allegedly has :;iven a ~entle~n t:1e go-ahead, as indicated to one gentleman in this Provitlce, that he can have the contract to build an extension on Confederation Building, ~IR.

J. CAH.TER: ~!R. ~EARY: :;ro. No, ~!r. Speaker. :IR. ~lORGA.'l: innuendoes, You do not know >~hat you are talking about. rm ... 'lE.A,.Il.Y: ~r. Speal•.er, t~e han. ~fir~ister of '!'ouri:;:n, Sir, Hill zet the message in due course. If the hon. gentleman's he2.d is too thick to absorb <Jhat I em s.e.ying, tl1at it cannot fi:!.ter through, :::1:::. :.t uill ::.n due course. It •·;ill in due co'..lrse. Hhn.t is his nar.1e? ~1r. Speaker, what a minister to .e.sk me that q'..lestion! And the minister do~m camped in his posh office in a building 405

Tape );o. 141 ~;p_, NE!LltY; that is owned by that same gentle~an do•mtown for which no public tenders wer~ called. ~IR.. ~10RGA.""': l !ll.. 'Et\.'{Y: - that is sor..ethine else. For 'IJhich no public tenders ~·rere called ancl the 1niliister is cal!:pecl in an office tr.at is mvned by that sal!le gentle~:~an <lnd then the minister says, "Name names:" :rn.. liORGi'.:-<: Whoever o~vns the building is a slUill landlord 1 I clo not care who l1e is. \Thoever owns the building I have an office in is a slu~ landlord. .-~.:~ ao~. :·!El·IDEn.: ~o hired the premises? ER. · ii"EARY: Well, ~lr. Speaker, I would suggest the ;nini;;ter take that u;:> with the :,[inis ter of Public :~orks,

.:arcl1 10,1973 Tape ~lo. 142 /J-!-1 HR. ~lEARY: or get in touch witil :!r. llulalley. :Jr. ;rulalley is ·.,orkitez for ti1e Departuent of the Eaviron:nent ar.rl :perhars :rr. :1ulalley will come down and clean it up a:,d the minister with it. The ·lump should b~ · closed up,I must say. l·ri:<., NEf·RY: Ancl that han. 311·=tleman froR St. John 1 s :'lor til (J. Carter) sits ti1ere day in and Uc:.y cui: THi:.::1 ~·J.is ,::ollt=aeue frou St.

John's East 0-Jm.~farshall) who once in a while get Uil enou~~l iler.ve to take a little flick 'It the eovern'1lent 1 s ;l0lici2s b··.lt t:1ey are always very careful, ti1ey al,•ro.y£J ,>reface tl1eir reEarks, :-;r. Speaker. :Jid you ever notlce, Mr.. Speaker, t\ey alr.vays aJ.'linistration diJ it. This is the way they did it and we condemn tl1em for that:. .,,. are not going to go alons with it, it is all ti1eir fault': But now we see the Premier trying to c;ive away the Lower Churchill to the Government of Canada and to :~r. Roosevelt. Al{ HOO .:.n::i·ffiER: (Inaudible) - never eive it away.

HR. lffiARY: So you get a six page or an eight page statement from the han. gentleman condemning the government aild l1is colleagues for not clarifying their position with regard to Crown corporations on the ~ower Churchill. 1-i.Z. JOHN CA..'lTEl<.: Wl1o is he talking about? l1R. NEARY: I am talking about your colleague,the other ~entle;nan wi1o 30t the flicl~. I was a~;ay at ti1e time;it ·.,as either Rockefeller or Roosevelt that strolled across the lobby of Confederation J'.l..!ilclinl?_ anu. in arm wit~l-\..That the ninister refers to~ his boss~ the Pr~rnier~ as God. :rr:.. DOODY: Oh! That is'Frank~you mean.

Ti1e hou. gentleman got it no''· And so they continue to support that administration, Sir, so I would assume that they are supporting the good and the bad. That the morals that they put out once in a while for the people is just a phony, It is all phony. 407 ,, ,,, I' ·~· l

:-<arci1 10,1 976 Tape :<o. 14Z bH-2 t liZ. J. CAKli::J:\: 1/oul•l yoL~ rat:1er then: support you? HR. :mtu\Y: I would rather have the menber get up and demand to know what is happening in connection with the investigation down in Pablic: :lorks. And I would like to see the member get up , the ~ember is always so pure, get up and ask what is happening in co=ection with t:i1e extel lSiO•l ::ci Confederation Building, \>hat is happening in connection with re...>ting office space downtown. :1r. Speaker, I have put the questions to the non. gantleman and the trouble -'.s that I do not get any answers.

I have not bean! the hon. gentleman ask any questio:r_s .:~bout these thir:ss and the han. gentleman,I believe, is terribly interested in these •natters 1 the c1on. ~entleman and i1is colleague from St. John's East (Wm. ~larshall) • The ;1on. gentleman from St. John's East (<Tm.Harshall) is always there eager to jum~ in to Give a legal opinion, a constitutional opinion ,,,:12n somethi:r.:;; arises concerning jus::ice or the courts in t:>is Province, but very seldom, ;-rr. Speaker, will you see him get up and ask about anythir<.; controversial unless he blames it on the former administration. Now, Hr.

Speaker, yesterday, to carry on with my trend of how the relations between Otta~..-a and the provir;.cial government deteriorated;and how the ~inister of Fisheries and the llinister of Transportation and Communications at that time and the !·1inister of Rural Development, how they brought about a situation where Newfoundland lost millions c..nd millions of dollars.

Let '"e give the ~louse an exam:_:>le - ar.d the i!inister of Mines and E:nergy,by the >:ay,is guilty of that to a certain decree toe, anJ t.J.1e Premier. _'.nd I will tell this House ri::;:1t r.cm, Sir, that as of t~e day before yesterday l'l1en I started :r:y speech - and tne i1on. 3entleman can co;ne in and sit down. I would like to g2t the answer to this ·,it may be of some interest to the people. Mr. Speaker, talki;:;.g about questions, let me point something out to the House,if I can find my statistics here. 408

Tape :lo. :!.42 .I.H-3 >fr. Speaker t ~1on • .;erLtl~-~en say ~uestion :'erio~ Has t>1is -::tornin~, put your questions on the t'rder ::aper, 2.sk qu .... stions. ~·lell :et rJ.e say .. ..rhat kii..Ld of a track record this hen. crowd have for answering questim1s. Last year, Sir, the num1...er of questions tableci. i:n. this House, :!.rL the 1977 sitting of t !1e House ,...ras 243. 2L~7 cf there ~J42rc to.bled Uy Sr~!allvood. 248 questions .:1n<.l I do net c..:ai.e r.o they ';Je!:'e table...:. by a I ~laVe ta:.,leL. a I air :1U!.lhe:- m~'S~lf. f. • 409

March 10, 1978 Tape 143 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: 248 questions were tabled. Well,hon. gentlemen on the opposite side who are now telling us that we can get all of the information we want.' All we have to do is ask questions, put them on the Order Paper or ask them during the Oral Question Period,~would han. gentlemen care to take a guess how many of these questions were answered? MR. .MORGAN More than half of them were answered orally in the House. More than half of them. MR. NEARY: Would the han. gentleman put his seat in jeopardy by telling the House that more than half of these questions were answered?

Would the han. gentleman do that? MR. CALLAN: Now there is a challenge. MR. NEARY: Now there is a challenge for the hon. gentleman. I will tell you what I will do, Mr. Speaker, if - MR. MORGAN: T ,,,;_ll tell :'on ~<'hat I am going to do. I will put my seat in jeopardy if you will confirm and prove your statement made in the House yesterday that the Premier had to go to Ottawa and apologize to two ministers of the Crown. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. MORGAN: I will do that right now if you can prove it,and I will resign my seat in the House. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hen. gentleman- MR.

MORGAN: Back up your statements now. MR. NEARY: - the han. gentleman may be interested in knowing, Sir, that there were 248 questions asked on the Order Paper last year and the total number answered by the government was 104, not even 50 per cent.Of the 144 tabled questions not answered - MR. MORGAN: . Pick up the challenge. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, of the 144 - MR. MORGAN: Prove the charge you made in this House. . I 4i0

March 10, 1978 Tape 143 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Your Honour, could you get the Yahoo to keep quiet ? MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please: The han. member for LaPoile has indicated that he wishes to be heard in silence, and I would ask the members to my left to please adhere to that ruling. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I stand on a point of personal privilege. AN HON. MEMBER: There is no point of privilege. MR. MORGAN: I will allow the Chair to make the decision whether it is a point of privilege or not. I put forward to the House, on a point of personal privilege, for the bon. gentleman for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary} to accept my challenge to prove statements made about me yesterday in the House of Assembly, and made subsequently in the media, through CBC network in particular yesterday evening, that the Premier of the Province had to go to Ottawa and apologize for my rowing with Ottawa and my colleague the Minister of Fisheries' rowing with Ottawa. I will put my position as minister on the line right now, I will resign as the Minister of the Cabinet if the han. gentleman can prove these statements. If he cannot prove them, I am asking him to resign his position as Opposition House Leader of the House. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, that is not a point of personal privilege, that is just a difference of opinion between two han. members. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! The han. member is speaking to the point of privilege? MR. NEARY: No, I am just pointing out to Your Honour - MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! I feel that it is not a point of privilege but just a difference of opinion between two I i han. members . MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! 41.1.

March 10, 1978 Tape 143 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG) : Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, it is a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): I have made my ruling. MR. MORGAN: There is a point of order. It is a point of order. The point of order is that the han. gentleman has made charges in the House of Assembly against an indi~idual member of the House, in this case two ministers of the Crown, and the point of order is that the hon. gentleman should not be allowed to continue in this kind of slanderous attack on ministers unless he can prove what he is talking about. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, is Your Honour going to allow that kind of specious point of order to be raised to keep interrupting my speech? That is not a point of order, Your Honour knows that. It is just the han. gentleman trying to squirt a little venom and a little spite and a little hate across the House. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! I still feel it is not a point of order, but just a difference of opinion in the heat of debate. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I must say, Sir, I am not heated, although I am having the hot and cold flashes today with this flu . that I have got. But, Sir, the total number - MR.

MORGAN: V.'hat a man! Chicken! Chicken! MR. NEARY: If the hon. member can just - MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! A few moments ago I made a ruling that the han. member wished to be heard in silence, and I will ask the hon. members to my left to please refrain from interrupting. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to suggest to Your Honour 1 because that is probably what the han. gentleman wants me to do,that the han. Speaker name the han. gentleman. I am not going to suggest that, Your Honour. But I think Your Honour knows the rules sufficiently well enough to know that if the hon. gentleman keeps 412

March 10, 1978 Tape 143 PK - 4 interrupt~ng that the hon . gentleman can be named. Mr. Speaker, 248 questions were tabled in 1977 sitting of the Rouse, 104 were answered, The 144 tabled questions not answered in the last sitting of the House the vilest offender was by far the Premier who answered 5 out of a total of 37 quest ions directed to him. Most of which were dot asked by Mr. Smallwood by the way, most of which were asked by the hon. Member for Trinity-B ay de Verde (Nr. F. Rowe) and myself tfor the benefit of the hon. member for Teinity North (~r . Brett). AN HON. MmmER: He never had enough ~sist;mc.e. 413

''arch lrJ. 1978 Tape 144 FC - l ~'R. :'!EARY: ~d the memo goes on to say that the Health >:inister fails to table fourteen answers. Anr' 1;hat about the '[inister of Transportation and Co!1UIIunications of t1-!at tir.:e? ' ~m; if I can get the hon. minister's attention, The 1-!on. gentle=n who just finished telling the House that we <Jere going to get all the information ''e uant all "e have t:o c'o is aslc questions: \ ·~at kind of a track recorrl does the hon. gentleman have in that re~arrl? 'loes the hon. gentleman remember last year hmv many questions the hon. gentleman did not answer? rave him a quess.

One? 0uite a few f?uite a fe~1. HR. c10RGN1 : -questions, nonsensical questions. ·~r. Spe>.al:er, it is not for the '1on. gentleman to decide, Sir, •;hen ~uestions are legitimate and vi, en they are nonsensical. Mr. Smallwood was gathering - ~~. I~EARY: Mr. Speaker, that is not for the han. gentleman to decide. - information for a book. NR. NEAJ1.Y: I just finished telling the hon. gentleiT~n that most of the questions that were unanS\Vered were asked by the mem~er for Trinity - Bay de Verde, asked of the Premier, and myself.

Hell, hmv !'lany did the l'inister of 'T'ransnort-'!tion. nmv deposed, r<:>j ectecl, demoted - St iJ.l a e1an, thou.~h. ".oH r.~any dirl he not ans•-rer, Sir? Hell, the h.on. gentleman failed to ansHer fourteen. The Ninister of Public Works, ~1ho is nm·7 the Hinister of 1-'.anpower and Industrial relations, and the Fisheries "!inister~ how many questions would the hon. gentlemen say they did not anffiver in the last session of the House? - on the Order Paper noH I am talking al:>out. And we are told, Sir, ''e are told everv rlay, 1 Ask questions and you will get t':le information. 1 RoH =ny 414

~larch 10, 1978 Tane 144 EC - '2 ~!R. NEARY: did the Hinister of Fisheries not ans~·ler last year~ I will tell the hon. minister - ten - ten each. They are tied - there is a tie. They have something in common. An~ that is the only thing they have in coll1lllon, they refuse to ans<Ier. They refuse to give the House the information on ten questions each. MJt. IJ. CARTER: Fow many ~;ere anS':Iered? 11":'. Speaker, I just finisherl tell in? the l'ouse - perhaps the hon. Yinister of "!<isheries uas not in his seat - 248 questions were asked - :-m. 1-!. CAP,TER: !low many did He ans<rer? ~!r.

Speaker, I do not have that statistic, '!:lut 24fl fJUestions "ere asked of the government - the govern.I'lent >:.Jho are so generous in giving information "·1henev~r ?Oll ask for it. -\11 you have to rlo, according to the "inister of rons