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June 3, 2021

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Barry Petten, MHA for Conception Bay South,

substitutes for Joedy Wall, MHA for Cape St. Francis.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Gerry Byrne, MHA for Corner Brook, substitutes

for Paul Pike, MHA for Burin - Grand Bank.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Derrick Bragg, MHA for Fogo Island - Cape Freels,

substitutes for Lucy Stoyles, MHA for Mount Pearl North.

The Committee met at 6:04 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Gambin-Walsh):

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

The previous minutes are here; I'd ask if there are any revisions or amendments

and ask for a mover.

MHA Petten has moved the minutes.

The minutes for June 2 have been moved by MHA Petten.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

What we'll do – it's 6:04 – is we'll probably go until around 6:30, take or

give, we'll see where we are with the Estimates at the time and take a short

10-minute break at that time.

The substitutes for tonight are: Mount Pearl North, we have Fogo Island - Cape

Freels, Minister Bragg substituting for MHA Stoyles; MHA Pike, Burin - Grand

Bank, Minister Byrne is substituting for him; and for Cape St. Francis, MHA

Wall, MHA Petten is substituting for him.

Just a reminder for everyone to please identify yourself for Hansard. You can

take your mask down when you are speaking and just wait for your light to go on.

If your light doesn't go on, just wave and if it still doesn't go on, I'll

identify you. That's pretty much it.

We're going to ask you to introduce yourself, we'll start with the minister and

then we'll start with the subheadings.

CLERK (Hammond):

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

Oh right, I have to ask. I forgot about that.

In Committee, we've been doing 15, 10, 10 and then the independent Member to a

total of 20. This morning they did 15, 10, 10, 10 and then the independent

Member and then they went 10, 10 and checked with the independent Member to see

if he had a question, but he still had a total of 20 for the entire time.

Everyone is okay with that? All right, we'll proceed with that.

We'll start with introductions. We'll start here to my left with introductions.

E. BARNES:

Eldred Barnes, Associate Deputy Minister.

T. OSBORNE:

Tom Osborne, Minister.

G. O'LEARY:

Greg O'Leary, Deputy Minister.

R. HAYES:

Robyn Hayes, Assistant Deputy Minister for Corporate Services.

R. FEAVER:

Robert Feaver, Director of Student Financial Services.

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Hi, everyone. It is Candice Ennis-Williams, ADM, Post-Secondary Education.

T. STAMP:

Tracy Stamp, Departmental Controller.

M. GOSS-PROWSE:

Mary Goss-Prowse, Director of Early Learning and Child Development.

B. CLARKE:

Brad Clarke, Director of Programs and Services.

CHAIR:

Okay. We'll start over here.

D. HYNES:

Darrell Hynes, Director of Legislation and Policy Affairs.

B. PETTEN:

Barry Petten, MHA for Conception Bay South.

J. DINN:

Jim Dinn, St. John's Centre MHA.

P. TRIMPER:

Perry Trimper, MHA for Lake Melville.

S. FLEMING:

Scott Fleming, Researcher, Third Party Caucus.

S. REID:

Scott Reid, MHA, St. George's - Humber.

G. BYRNE:

Gerry Byrne, MHA, Corner Brook.

D. BRAGG:

Derrick Brag, MHA, Fogo Island - Cape Freels.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

I ask the minister if he has some comments.

T. OSBORNE:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to be brief because I know we have three hours and the Committee

Members would like to ask questions, so I'm not going to take up a lot of time.

I will say that it has been probably an unprecedented year in education. The

addition of the post-secondary education, the COVID and the challenges that has

brought – we brought in $25-a-day child care and now working with the federal

government to bring it to $10 a day and, as Members know, the announcements in

particular.

It is an interesting time, a very busy time, in the Department of Education.

Before we start, just to thank my executive team for being here tonight, but as

well for meeting the challenges of this unprecedented year. I know that it

hasn't been easy on anybody, especially the staff in the department.

With that, I'll open it up for questions. O ne

thing, I know my critic, Mr. Petten, had asked if we could open it up for

questions outside of Estimates and I'm okay with that as long as we keep it

respectful.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister Osborne.

First, I'll ask the Clerk to call the first subhead grouping, please.

CLERK:

1.1.01 to 1.2.01 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 to 1.2.01 carry?

MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you very much.

I'll take the paraphernalia off me. I'm tangled up in my glasses and microphone.

Good evening, everyone.

As we spoke earlier, Minister, I have a series of questions that I'll start off

with and I will get into some of the more detailed stuff as we move along.

First of all, your briefing binder, would we be able to get a copy of that?

T. OSBORNE:

No, no way.

B. PETTEN:

I'll take that as a yes.

T. OSBORNE:

Of course, yes. We can get those sent over, I guess, tomorrow morning, Barry.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, perfect.

First, is the attrition plan still being followed? If so, what changes are there

from last year to this year?

T. OSBORNE:

As I did last year and whatever portfolio I was in, if the question is really

political I'll take it on, or if it's political at all, I guess, but in this

regard I'll ask Robyn to step in.

Yes, the attrition plan is there. In terms of the targets, I guess, Robyn.

R. HAYES:

We did have an attrition target for '20-'21 and '21-'22, and it was about

$18,000, roughly. Our attrition target was about – $35,636 is the position we

had identified. It was $18,200 for '20-'21 and in '21-'22 it's another $18,100

for a total of $36,300, and we've met this target.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you.

How many people are presently employed in the department?

R. HAYES:

In the department, in the Salary Details, as of March 31 there were 167

positions filled out of a total of just over 200.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Many retirements in this past year?

R. HAYES:

There were seven.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Any vacancies that have been filled?

R. HAYES:

Currently?

B. PETTEN:

Yeah.

R. HAYES:

We do have vacancies, as we do every year. About 30 or 40 I believe right now,

but they're a mixture across a large department.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

No positions have been eliminated, have they?

R. HAYES:

Just the one for the attrition.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

No layoffs, obviously.

R. HAYES:

No.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

How many new hires in the past year?

R. HAYES:

The report we have just shows people that were brand new to government. There

were four of those.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

In those contractual and short-term employees, how many of those are in the

department, do you know?

R. HAYES:

Short-term contractual employees? I'm not a hundred per cent sure. I know that

there is at least one in my branch. In the other branches, I'm not a hundred per

cent sure, but there would be some that are currently working through the EAP.

We can get that figure for you.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

From the COVID fund, did the department receive any funds? If so, what for?

T. OSBORNE:

Go ahead, Robyn.

R. HAYES:

You're talking about the COVID fund from Finance, that COVID contingency fund?

B. PETTEN:

Yes.

R. HAYES:

As you're aware, we received $20.3 million for the Chromebooks for students in

Grades 7 to 12 and funding for teacher laptops.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

How has the COVID fund impacted service delivery?

R. HAYES:

In the K-to-12 system?

B. PETTEN:

Yes, in the K-to-12 system.

R. HAYES:

As the minister alluded, it's been an unprecedented year for K-to-12 in general.

With every industry, there have been shutdowns throughout K-to-12. We've moved

to online learning in post-secondary. There have been outages in the child care

sector, so it has impacted operations in the whole department.

B. PETTEN:

Right on, okay.

there been any analysis done on cost savings or job cuts yet?

T. OSBORNE:

As I had indicated in the budget lock-in for the media – I don't know if they

carried it or not – and partially indicated, as much as I could fit in 45

seconds, in Question Period, there are short-term, medium-term and long-term

goals that we're hoping to achieve. We should have those identified in the very

near future in terms of what we hope to accomplish in the short term, medium

term and long term.

As the transition progresses, based on what we identify as short-term goals

we'll have some idea what we identify as medium-term goals in terms of

transition. We'll have a full picture once the transition is complete and we can

identify what the operational efficiencies are and what the fiscal efficiencies

are.

I'm always hesitant to take a guess because best guesses, in the history of

government, never pan out to be accurate. I'd rather be accurate and say, as we

identify the short-term goals we can give some indication, but the accurate

numbers will come once the transition is fully complete.

B. PETTEN:

I can imagine that it must be causing anxiety among the –

T. OSBORNE:

Pardon me?

B. PETTEN:

It must be causing anxiety among a lot of the staff with the eastern school

district. It has be causing anxiety if they're –

T. OSBORNE:

Well, any time there's change there's anxiety. I can say quite honestly, there

was anxiety with educators this year because of COVID. There was anxiety with

students this year because of COVID. There were no job losses with educators; in

fact, there were more educators, guidance, administrators and even custodians

hired. With any change, there's anxiety. Undoubtedly, yes, there is and will be

anxiety until people know what the future is going to look like.

As the Premier and Minister of Finance had indicated and as I had indicated in

good, strong focus on attrition over the next 12 to 18 months as the transition

District to replace a position of somebody who's retiring in the department,

maybe we don't need to hire that person in the department, as there is a

retirement. If we can focus on attrition and those numbers, it will lessen the

impact of whatever the impact may look like once the transition is complete.

The intention is that there are no mass layoffs. Will there be positions

affected? There may be. That's as honest an answer as you can get. There may be

positions affected, but there will not be mass layoffs. We hope to accomplish

through attrition over the next year, year and a half, and then, based on the

District and within the department once the transition is complete, over the

course of the next year or two, step up the attrition to an even greater degree.

B. PETTEN:

Any savings that come as a result of this, are there plans to reinvest them into

the classroom? I know it's been asked, but we never got a clear answer on it.

T. OSBORNE:

Yes, absolutely. We've been clear about that as well.

I don't know if we should call them savings versus efficiencies, because savings

would mean that you actual save the money. There's no intention here of putting

the money into general revenue. If we can save or find fiscal efficiencies

through the transition, that money will be reinvested into educators, into

students and into the classroom.

Currently, we rank second or third lowest in the country in terms of academic

performance. We obviously need to improve that and that will come not by

investing in administration or people who run the system, but it will come

through investments in the classroom.

B. PETTEN:

The next question – I'll probably combine it for you, because it's probably

going to be two parts, anyway – has to do with the francophone school board.

The two questions: Why wasn't the board combined as well? Part two of that

question is, will the CEO be returning to the province after July 1 when our

lockdown is lifted?

T. OSBORNE:

Yes.

I should ask, Chair, the person doing most of the answering and the person doing

most of the questioning, maybe we should just keep our masks off until it moves

on to the next person, because it is a little bit cumbersome.

B. PETTEN:

Thanks. It is very cumbersome.

T. OSBORNE:

Barry, in terms of that, there is some unclarity, if I can call it that, in

terms of constitutional obligation and whether or not – within the department

some people are saying they interpret the act to say as long as parents have a

say; some people say I'm not sure; maybe constitutionally we have to. That's a

tangled web.

We've had some very frank discussions with the francophone district and said

they need to find operational and fiscal efficiencies. They service 350

complex and complicated process of determining whether or not there will be a

constitutional challenge, we haven't ruled it out. If efficiencies can't be

found, we'll investigate further and get legal advice on whether or not we have

the ability to do the same with the francophone district. But I don't think

there's a need to if we can get the fiscal and financial efficiencies. You are

looking at a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of the cost of operating the

B. PETTEN:

Will she be returning to the province, do you think?

T. OSBORNE:

Oh, sorry. Yes, you did ask that.

Yes, I have been given assurances by both Ms. Christianson and the francophone

school district that she will be returning to the province.

B. PETTEN:

I guess a part of that too – I know it's been talked about; both of us have

spoken about it publicly. What additional measures are you taking to ensure the

Finance and Treasury Board compliance? I know you have already asked the

Comptroller General. So are there any other measures being taken or is it worth

that?

T. OSBORNE:

Pending the outcome of the Comptroller General's investigation as to whether or

not proper procedures, protocols were followed and whether or not the

expenditures follow Treasury Board guidelines, the answer to that investigation

will determine whether or not there are next steps.

B. PETTEN:

Okay. Fair enough.

Air quality testing in schools: Is that still being carried out? Is it regular

or is it only sporadic?

T. OSBORNE:

That would be Robyn, I think.

R. HAYES:

systems in the schools.

B. PETTEN:

R. HAYES:

Oh no, the French would as well, sorry.

B. PETTEN:

Oh, both of them do.

R. HAYES:

They would do testing.

B. PETTEN:

Regular. Okay.

I guess the minister may be answering this one. Has your department done any

analysis on the Greene report, Minister? Because there is a lot of things in

there that pertains to your department.

T. OSBORNE:

It is still very early days. We have had discussions and we have had meetings on

the Greene report. To be quite honest, I don't even think there was a briefing

note done on the Greene report. If it is, you'll be getting it.

We have had meetings and discussions through the Treasury Board process leading

into budget and the evolution of that process. Decisions were made and

incorporated within my department and, I imagine, in other departments. Some of

the recommendations that we saw in the Greene report, some of those, whether it

is my department or other departments, may have been things that were being

considered in any event. We will do a deeper dive into the other recommendations

of the Greene report.

District and with Memorial, I can honestly say staff are not under worked. Once

we get through the budget decisions, I think we'll have time to analyze and

probably take a deeper dive on some of the other recommendations.

B. PETTEN:

There were a couple of findings in that report. One of the ones – and I guess

tied to MUN too – was about K-to-6 graduates and not being able to basically

teach the curriculum, which were pretty pointed remarks.

T. OSBORNE:

I'll ask my deputy to speak to that.

G. O'LEARY:

Yeah, I will just say that we've been doing some analysis, MHA Petten, both at

the post-secondary level in the department as well as in the K-to-12 level.

Preliminary, as it might have been, we've had several meetings where we've

looked at it and brought it back to staff and looked at it.

To your question, on the K to 6, I've had a conversation with the acting dean at

Memorial University, followed up from the Greene report, to ask some of those

questions. One of the things that we would like to see is – well, first of all,

we'd like to see a little bit more teachers in the K-to-6 area having to do more

courses in math themselves, coming into the program.

Do I agree that the teachers are not qualified? Absolutely not. I do believe

that we have some very, very strong teachers in those areas, but could we shore

it up a little bit more by asking students to have a couple of math courses in

advance of entering the program or to have some pure math courses as a part of

the program, those are discussions that I started with the dean there, that I

would be in favour with.

I taught at the faculty of education for 10 years myself. I taught methods for

Absolutely. Have those discussions begun? Absolutely, but are our teachers

coming out unqualified? That's probably taking it a little bit too far.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thanks.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

MHA Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Deputy Minister, I am glad to hear you say that and be totally unequivocal about

it. I would concur with that. I found that part to be insulting. Maybe a little

bit uninformed.

Some general questions starting off. I'm looking at the timeline for the NLESD

and department integration. I think, Minister, you mentioned – over the next 12

to 18 months, I thought there was an actual timeline. Here are a few questions

around this in a general way.

In 2013, the four districts were amalgamated into one. That was announced in the

spring of the year and implemented in the fall of the year. All I can tell you

is that it created an awful lot of havoc and confusion and chaos. I can think of

it just in terms of trying to mesh the four boards with their differing

approaches to things into one. I would say that it created an awful lot of

problems down the road in terms of keeping track of things fiscally and

financially so on and so forth.

Two parts to that: Was there ever an analysis done of that as to the savings or

the efficiencies or the effectiveness of it from a person who was on the inside,

I guess – sounds rather ominous in some ways – and who dealt with it as the

president of the association? I can't say that there were inefficiencies. I

think in some ways the board probably grew beyond. I somehow think that the four

boards before that probably wouldn't have grown as much that you wouldn't have

seen the staff grow, but that's an observation. That's the first thing: Was

there ever a study?

Secondly, in terms of just the timeline because you mentioned short-, medium-

and long-term goals. I guess I'm looking at it in terms of how do we see this

play out. I'm assuming that you're not planning to simply integrate it into in

September. What you're saying here is this is not going to like be, as of

September, the board vanishes. That's a good thing if that's the case.

T. OSBORNE:

No, you're correct, Jim. It won't be rushed. I think when you act in haste, you

repent at leisure. I take your point on the four boards, the fact that that was

rushed. I don't know if there was an analysis done of that or not, Jim. I

honestly don't know. But we do have officials within the department and the

discussions have started with the NLESD.

As you know, this is a very busy time with the Legislature open. There will be

some meetings through the course of June, but I think while the work has

started, the real work in taking a deeper dive will start the first week of July

once the Legislature closes.

The departments and officials in the department and myself, as minister, are

really preoccupied with the Legislature at this particular point. The work is

started. There are discussions. There are officials looking at what can be done,

very smoothly, in a short-term time frame and then the more complex, medium-term

time frames and then the more difficult to transition.

I won't say today what those are. I'll wait to get feedback from officials on

what the short-term, medium-term and long-term achievable goals are, but there

are back-office functions. Whether or not they are considered short-term or

medium-term, I'm not sure.

I mean, there's certainly payroll, which is done in the Department of Finance

District. Even though teacher payroll is done in the department, there is 30 or

department? I'm not sure. I know there are some vacancies. There are five or six

vacancies, I think, there. Whether those vacancies are filled or not, whether

they need to be filled or whether we need all those positions, those are the

types of things we're asking for the advice on. For example, what are the

short-term, medium-term and long-term expectations for a transition?

J. DINN:

A quick question: For the next school year, the district stays in place.

T. OSBORNE:

Yes.

J. DINN:

Okay, no, and that to me will –

T. OSBORNE:

Yes, and I'd agree with you, Jim. You said you felt it would wreak havoc or it

wreaked havoc in the past.

If we were to try to do this in time for September and have a smooth opening of

school in September, I think it would be foolhardy. I think whether or not some

of the transition can happen by September, look, as long as it doesn't impact

the opening of school in September. I mean, once school is open and things are

up and running, there are other things you can focus on, but there may be things

that won't affect or have any impact on school doors opening, desks being filled

and educators in front of a classroom. We want to do this in as methodical a way

as we can.

As a former educator, my office door is open. If you want to come over, sit down

and give me some ideas in terms of your experiences as a former educator and

what you think the short, medium and long term – without any politics attached –

J. DINN:

No.

T. OSBORNE:

– I'd welcome you over.

J. DINN:

Minister, I'll say this clearly: I'm not being a champion of the school district

or wishing to see its demise or anything like that. And you're right: In

September, it's chaotic to begin with. I don't want to see a third – it's going

to be chaotic with COVID this September, still. To me, one of the things that

teachers are looking for in September is clear guidance and clear channels of

communication as to what – getting mixed messages. That is a good thing. If

possible then, as we start to identify them, keep us informed.

The jury is still out with me on this. I just know that when it was done in

2013, I think it created a lot of unnecessary confusion. Whether it was a good

idea, I don't know, but I think it could have been planned out better at that

time. I don't know if it every really saved the money or made the efficiencies.

I wish we had done some follow-up analysis.

That is my only comment with this, and I'm glad to see at least – like I said, I

haven't made up my mind one way or the other on this. I really haven't. But I

hope that if we're doing it methodically and we're going to look at what works

and what doesn't – and I am assuming you'll also be talking to teachers,

certainly the Teachers' Association and maybe NAPE as well, because they can

give you the ins and outs of it as well.

T. OSBORNE:

Absolutely.

I know that there has been some discussion with the NLTA executive already; it

is very preliminary. I haven't reached out to NAPE at this particular point, but

we intend to and to speak to all stakeholders. You are correct in saying that if

we rush this we will regret it. If we do it in a methodical and very planned

way, I think it would best serve everybody involved and, most importantly, what

happens in the classroom. At the end of the day, if there are efficiencies,

that's where they are going to be directed. The focus has to be what happens in

the classroom.

J. DINN:

I appreciate that.

I'm assuming this is going to be part of your goals, whether they're short-,

medium- or long-term. I'm just looking at the office infrastructure. You have

the head office here, but you also have satellite offices throughout. I'm just

wondering: Will we see a movement of staff to these or will it be centralized

here? In terms of how you see that unfolding.

T. OSBORNE:

In fairness, I think it is too early, really, to comment on that.

J. DINN:

Yes, okay.

T. OSBORNE:

Will we need satellite offices still? I believe we will. I'm open to suggestion

on what is best, but I believe we do and will require satellite offices. There

is lots of empty space in the East and West Blocks, so are we able to bring some

of the staff in here? I believe so.

I can't say definitively today, but if I was thinking at first blush, we could

probably bring some staff within the East and West Block. The NLESD in the city

of St. John's have two buildings. Do we still need two buildings? I don't know,

but maybe we can reduce that to one external building, which, right then and

there, is a savings.

Those are the types of things that have to be analyzed. I can't give you an

answer as to whether they'll need one building or two buildings, whether we can

get staff in yet or not, but those are the types of things that we're looking at

for sure. If there are efficiencies by reducing it to one building in St. John's

– obviously, maintenance, you can't have them coming in and hanging their tool

bag on the side of a desk in Confederation Building. There's still a great deal

of analysis and planning to ensure we get it right.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you very much.

I have more questions. I'm just going to go to a couple of questions I have

there on the subheadings and I'll go back to some other questions as time

permits.

Under 1.1.01, Minister's Office, I guess the first question is on Salaries. What

was the increase last year from budget to revised?

T. OSBORNE:

Did you want to answer that, Greg?

G. O'LEARY:

I can answer that because it was very intentional. It was intended as a COVID

measure to add an additional liaison in the minister's office. That was a

recommendation at the executive level. It's important to note here that

post-secondary was brought into the department in August.

We essentially right now have a department and a half, to give you an analogy.

We have a huge department right now. If you just get some sense through a

pandemic now, through inquires from MHA, inquires from families, from schools.

That liaison is in charge of helping with K-to-12 as well as early learning,

which has gone to a $25 a day and a new federal $30-billion announcement that we

are trying to decipher through right now as a government.

It was initially thought of as a COVID measure, but quite frankly, I think it's

something that's quite needed post-pandemic because we have a perfect storm

going on right now in the Department of Education. We have to do the work that

we just talked about in terms of bringing the district in. We have quite a

number of initiatives to help transform education in the province over the next

three to four years and to get those outcomes up, to get a higher ranking. We

have the national federal goal of attaining $10 a day in early child care and I

don't need to even say what we have going on in post-secondary right now in this

province.

That's the reason that the salary went up. It's for that liaison. I can tell

you, she is working; we need her badly.

B. PETTEN:

Under Transportation and Communications, why the increase? Are we expecting to

see normal travel this year coming? Is that what's anticipated?

T. OSBORNE:

Robyn.

R. HAYES:

If you notice, the Transportation and Communications line is actually down by

$8,000, and not increased.

B. PETTEN:

Yes.

R. HAYES:

That's to account for – ministers have an option of receiving either car

allowance or to be reimbursed for their travel. Minister Osborne has the car

allowance, which is paid out through salaries. Part of the increase in Salaries,

besides the liaison, is for the minister's car allowance. The travel budget then

was reduced by $8,000 for that.

B. PETTEN:

We're expecting to get back to normal travel this year. Is that the plan with

the …?

R. HAYES:

That's what's in the budget. Whether or not that unfolds is yet to be

determined. We do a close monitoring of this every month and report to the

Department of Finance monthly on what we're saving there and what we're

anticipating for travel during the year.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thanks.

T. OSBORNE:

If I could add to that, Robyn.

Post-COVID, we're not sure but I think we've learned from COVID a lot of

meetings, for example, can happen by Skype; a lot of meetings can happen by

Zoom. I think instead of leaving the Transportation line items short and having

a department not function or having to transfer money from somewhere else, just

in case. I think across government, certainly in our department, there will be a

greater focus on having Zoom meetings as opposed to having people travel from

one location to another. We probably will see efficiencies in these areas, but

the budgets return to normal and we'll see what happens.

B. PETTEN:

I agree.

Under 1.2.01, Executive Support: Salary increase of $532,800 last year from

budgeted to revised.

R. HAYES:

The difference there in the actuals versus the budget reflects severance and

leave payouts for two retiring employees. Two of the employees that retired this

year were under this subheading.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

I guess Transportation and Communications stays the same as per the previous.

That's the question I had on that, so I'll go back to my general questions now

for my remaining minutes.

Minister, this is a political question: Do you agree that teachers should work

longer than five hours as proposed by Madam Greene?

J. DINN:

And I'm listening to this.

B. PETTEN:

And Jim Dinn is listening very closely. This is a twofer.

T. OSBORNE:

Thanks for that.

B. PETTEN:

He was going to ask it anyway.

T. OSBORNE:

I'm checking for hand grenades now.

B. PETTEN:

He was going to ask the question.

T. OSBORNE:

At this particular point, I can tell you there are no plans to implement that

particular recommendation. I think we will undertake some analysis of that

particular recommendation, but we don't have plans at this particular point to

implement that.

With any report, I think if – we saw, well, long before your time – I think I am

the only MHA sitting in the House now that went through the original Green

report on House spending. We accepted the recommendations there wholesale and

the Management Commission has, ever since, been cleaning up the wholesale

acceptance of those recommendations. No matter what the report is, I don't think

you'd be wise to say we agree with everything and we are implementing everything

100 per cent. That is one of the ones that are definitely on the back burner.

B. PETTEN:

While, I suppose, on the same theme, what about the idea of principals and other

admin staff not being members of the NLTA?

T. OSBORNE:

Again, I mean, officials in the department absolutely have their plates full now

University. When you had asked at the outset if we had done analysis of all of

the Greene recommendations, for example, those are two that we have not yet done

an analysis on. They are not what I would consider top of priority for us. The

the changes at MUN and the Memorial

University Act would be. Those are the things we're acting on immediately.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Nursing School, Minister: Do you have any analysis done on one nursing school

and the cost-benefit analysis of having one nursing school?

T. OSBORNE:

That is more in the Department of Health than it is in Education. Education does

have some impact. I'll ask Candice to speak to that a little bit more. That is

one that I know Health are taking a look at now and it's one that I think is

actively being reviewed to determine what the outcome should be.

Candice?

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

I think, just picking up on the minister's earlier point, really, the last

number of weeks, it's just been a matter of prioritization. I can honestly say

we have not considered the nursing consolidation piece. With that said, I can

tell you that that issue dates back as early as 2010, if not earlier. It will

require a lot of discussion with stakeholders, led by the Department of Health

and Community Services. We'll contribute our piece as needed.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

I guess this is twofold. It's kind of Greene and it's kind of budget. It's not

said in the budget, but Greene is more direct about MUN's cutting costs. She

states 30 per cent; I know that might be very aspirational. I remember there was

a 3 per cent cut requested when we were back in the previous administration and

that was painful.

What's your view on a 30 per cent cut at MUN? I know we're giving them autonomy.

Is that something you consider to be realistic or something to be reasonable?

T. OSBORNE:

We're working on the details with Memorial. I think in fairness to the president

and the Board of Regents and the Senate over there, it's my understanding that

in the very near future, they're going to be announcing what they are doing in

terms of tuition.

It's only the tuition freeze funding that we've looked at. We haven't looked at

their operating grant, or their maintenance budget or the medical school budget,

for example. It's the tuition freeze funding that we've looked at. We've

consulted with Memorial and we've had a number of discussions and meetings with

Memorial in that regard. I know Memorial is looking at efficiencies within their

own operation, because I believe there are efficiencies to be found and I know

your standpoint on that. I know you believe there are efficiencies to be found

at Memorial.

They're looking at other sources of revenue and I know other universities across

the country and around the world are creative in terms of revenue. Our funding

of Memorial is – I think 79 per cent of their grant comes from government versus

the national average of about 50 or 55 per cent. They get considerably more

money from us than other universities.

I think that through discussion and consultation with MUN, they are looking for

greater autonomy. They are looking for changes to the tuition freeze and they're

looking to changes to the Memorial

University Act . I think the president has spoken publicly after the budget

and, for the most part, her comments were positive, I thought, in terms of what

changes are happening.

B. PETTEN:

Thanks.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

MHA Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

One comment I was going to make at the end of it had to do with satellite

offices, what we're talking about. I really think, if we're going down this

road, you cannot run this province's education system unless you have offices in

the areas. Whether it's Labrador, West Coast, I think teachers, administrators

in the area schools need that contact. I just have to say that.

As you're assessing it and maybe putting the staff out there, I think you need

those boots on the ground and I think there has to be that more – I was talking

to my colleague from the Southern Shore. When I was teaching with the Ferryland

school district, it was in a bungalow. I could walk in and I could see all

consultants, including the superintendent, Mr. Galgay, who would come around to

every school in the fall and speak to every class.

There are limitations with small school boards, but that hands on was very

important. All I'm going to say is don't centralize it too much, look at staff

in these areas and I think you'll find that kind of interaction is essential.

Make it less corporate and more a collegial model, if I may. That's my one

comment on that.

T. OSBORNE:

I unequivocally agree that we need regional staff and regional representation.

For all five or six people throughout the province who are tuned in and

listening to this tonight, I can assure them that there will be regional

representation in areas of the province. You can't operate everything out of St.

John's.

J. DINN:

Perfect.

I'll give you a heads-up now; I will be asking in the House of Assembly during

Question Period about what your thoughts are on teacher hours and the

preparation so we have this new sense of co-operation and new era. I'm going to

give you a heads-up; that will come next week.

I do want to say about teacher hours. I'm looking at my colleague from

Bonavista, Minister O'Leary, Minister Byrne, and I don't know who else taught in

the classroom. I can tell you right now – I'm married to a primary teacher – you

just don't want to go into a school and say you're only working five hours a

day. You may not make it out alive. I can tell you, supervision alone, those

four out of five days a week, you're on supervision.

The biggest joy I had when I took on the role of president – and in here – is I

can get up at any time I want and go to the bathroom. That doesn't sound like

much but I tell you, depending on the class – that needs to be said. I could go

in most schools, primary schools and elementary schools especially, and I would

find teachers there until 5. They are there anyway. So that needs to be said.

As for the administrators, I know it may not be the best relationship

(inaudible) – whether they're in the union. But I can tell you it's a more

collegial model. I know that in Ontario and other areas it's become more

adversarial. I never did look upon the administrator in the school as the

supervisor; I looked upon them as the instructional leader in the school and as

a colleague. I think if we head down any other way, there is a real possibility

we'll end up doing more damage. So I'll leave it at that. I'll get off my

soapbox now.

Just out of curiosity, with regard to money for allocation review, is that in

the budget anywhere?

T. OSBORNE:

The teacher allocation, is that what you're referring to?

J. DINN:

Yes.

T. OSBORNE:

The process on that has started, Jim. We are going to the Independent

Appointments Commission to appoint a group of people to do an independent review

of the teacher allocation model. I felt that was best because it's not the

department reviewing it, it's not the NLTA reviewing it, you know, it's

completely independent. So that process has started.

In terms of whether or not they'll recommend that we have just the right number

of teachers, or we need more educators or if we have too many, I'm not going to

presuppose what comes out of that because it is an independent review. But what

comes out of it, we'll review the recommendations and move forward.

J. DINN:

No, excellent. As long as people who are appointed have some background in

education as well. Okay, no that's fine; that's what has been asked for.

Substitute positions – there are term substitute positions, I think, that were

hired for each school, at certain schools; will they be maintained for next year

at least until we get through the final round of vaccines?

T. OSBORNE:

Yes, we had the 70 term substitutes. I mean, it was largely a COVID measure, but

without calling it a pilot project, it was a pilot project. I think it has

worked well. I think that it served our schools well. We increased that number;

it was 70 and I think it's 88 term contracts now – or, actually, 87½ full-time

equivalent. So 87½ full-time term contracts, so we actually increased it from

the original 70. We were able to find the funding to do that. I think it's

worked well. Robyn or Greg, did you want to speak to –?

G. O'LEARY:

I think it's worked well as well. I want to say that we had a meeting with the

NLTA and we had a meeting with the school district. Both said their first

priority was the retention of the extra administrative and guidance units. They

said, in terms of a pecking order, we need those to operate. As a former

principal, I would agree with that.

Our minister actually was able to find that money provincially. That money came

federally last year and we were able to find it provincially, so we've

guaranteed that for this year. I actually think the term substitutes work as

well. Even though they cost a little bit more, I actually think they save money

in the long run. What ends up happening in a school is, as you know yourself

having been an educator, you need someone for one period or two periods or an

afternoon or whatever, when you have that term substitute in the building, you

don't have to get two and three people in there, you can get the same person.

That happened quite a bit when I was principal.

We had this conversation yesterday that we're in favour of that. That's

something that we're looking at right now. I'll pass it over to Robyn as well

for a final comment, if there is anything else.

R. HAYES:

Obviously, with any analysis that's done, the benefit of them, we do have to

make sure that we do have the sufficient budget there to cover those. So we will

take that into account when we do consider whether or not we will continue with

these, but it will definitely be considered, given the envelope we have.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Is there a reduction in student assistant hours for this year?

R. HAYES:

So are you referring to the student assistant hours that were added from the

COVID fund?

J. DINN:

Yes.

R. HAYES:

Again, they were a COVID measure. Any continuation of those would be a budgetary

item that we'd have to explore further. As of now, there is no budget for them,

but we'll have to consider that, if there is any room in the budget for that. I

can't say for sure that there is.

J. DINN:

I understand, from Dr. Haggie, that by the fall, we'll probably have schools,

students and teachers, but I still think there's going to be a few blips at

least. It will be less bumpy than last year, hopefully, but still there's going

to be a few hiccups I guess.

T. OSBORNE:

No doubt, Jim. When you asked, I was thinking from the provincial budget. I

mean, Robyn is correct; we did add, through the federal COVID funding, some

student assistants. We're being told by Public Health that, by and large, school

should return to generally normal in September. I'm guarded with my words when I

say that because you don't know what twists and turns or what new variants. By

and large, school should return to generally normal in September is what we are

being told by Public Health. I believe Dr. Fitzgerald indicated very much the

same yesterday.

We are also being told that school busing should – for the age groups that are

vaccinated, which right now is 12 and older. Whether by September we see 10 and

older, I don't know. For the age groups that are vaccinated, busing should by

and large return to normal as well.

With that in mind, if there are cases where it is viewed that a student

assistant is required over what would have been normal pre-COVID, that is

something that we work on currently with the NLESD and with administrators at

the school level.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

MHA Trimper.

P. TRIMPER:

Thank you for the opportunity. It is good to see the department folks. Thanks to

the Committee for a chance to ask some questions.

Some of my questions, I'm not sure; a lot of them are dealing with early

childhood education. Do we want to wait for that or will we tackle some of them

now?

T. OSBORNE:

No, if they are general questions, go ahead.

P. TRIMPER:

Okay.

Well, they are specific, of course, to my district and some of the challenges

that we have. I appreciate the moves that we have seen from the department to

support, I think, Lab West and Lake Melville. We have had some particular

situations where the demand for early childhood education spaces is so high.

Leading up to these Estimates I have just been checking with folks, for example,

at Pumpkin House. Everybody is familiar; it's certainly one of the larger

facilities. The wait-list there now is anywhere from 100 to 200 per cent. The

estimates on the board – I met with them a few days ago. They are saying

anywhere from 75 to 85 per cent of the staff they have right now are not

certified. They are operating only on the generosity of your exemption to allow

them to operate.

This is always like orchestra conducting because I feel like myself – I know the

minister and others – we have worked really hard on putting up these buildings,

on investing on these things and now we have this acute shortage of trained

folks to go in there, and our provincial government has just sunk $11.7 million

into a new YMCA. We have 60 spaces there. Well, guess what's happening? They're

luring in whatever is left in Pumpkin House over to there, so now we have a

little bit of a bidding war and Pumpkin House has no ability.

I'm not sure what the question is, but that is my situation.

T. OSBORNE:

I can speak generally and I can ask Mary to step in as well.

We've had a strong focus on Labrador and as you've indicated with Pumpkin House,

we put a huge investment into Pumpkin House provincially. But the issue you

raised is real and you're correct in saying that it has been challenging with

early childhood educators, particularly in the Labrador region. We have taken

some measures there that have allowed people who aren't trained because of the

shortage. Mary can speak a little more about that, where she's dealing with it

on a day-to-day basis, the success of that or the outstanding challenges.

One of the things with Minister Hussen federally: We've had some discussions at

the minister-to-minister level. I know there have been telephone calls and

discussions between officials provincially and federally.

There have been preliminary details around the $10-a-day child care put out

publicly and announced in the budget. We are waiting on greater details. We

understand, once the budget is passed federally, they will be communicating

publicly greater details. One of the things that I'm assured is a part of that

package is greater incentive to get more ECEs into the system. What that looks

like exactly, while we have had some preliminary discussions, I guess will be

announced by the federal government once the budget is passed.

Mary?

M. GOSS-PROWSE:

Yes, we're currently negotiating. The federal government has given us a template

to extend our current bilateral agreement. There is a workforce annex that

allows some funding for this particular fiscal year. We had a call today with

all of the provinces and territories with the federal government officials at my

level, and there is still very little information about what will be covered for

workforce in the bigger budget items that are going to be outside that.

In order for us to plan for this one-year funding – and this is every province

and territory. Nobody has signed that yet. We can't enter into something that

would have long-term impact if it were not going to be covered under the larger

budget item.

As the minister indicated, we should have information about that larger budget

that they've made some general announcements about in the coming weeks, I would

think. We certainly have a lot of things on the burner around that federal

piece. We are ready to go as soon as we know what we have to deal with.

In terms of Labrador, just to let you know, the ECE shortage is a pan-Canadian

issue; it is not just here. Areas like Labrador; it is exacerbated by the cost

of living, by the competition with high-paying industries that will offer jobs

that you don't need to be certified for at higher rate of pay.

Earlier this year, we introduced a 15 per cent increase in the Operating Grant

for centres in Labrador to be used specifically on hiring and incentives for

their staff. We also introduced a casual caregiver policy to allow short-term

substitutes for emergency situations, that kind of thing, so that they can have

someone who doesn't meet what we require. Ultimately, we don't, as a sector,

want to see that continue. Just as with schools, you have to have your education

degree in order to teach. We want to move to a place where all of our staff have

that qualification that we need around early childhood in order to do good,

quality programming.

The federal government's words have been very specific to wanting that quality

and wanting those qualified people, so we're just waiting on getting some better

specifics so that we'll know what we're negotiating.

P. TRIMPER:

It is a bit of a societal value challenge, I think as well. Here are trained

people with degrees, lots of experience, academic credentials and the salary

rate is just, wow. You really challenge yourself to think about it.

This is as much a Health and Community Services question: We are losing doctors.

My neighbours, they are leaving, but a few years ago could not find a space for

their three children. We almost lost two doctors until we finally got – you're

just going around. I keep coming back to early childhood education. It is almost

a least common denominator in so many of the problems that we are dealing with.

I appreciate all of your efforts.

That 15 per cent, by the way, when that came in on the OGP, was so well

received. The timing couldn't have been better.

Also, for the record, when there was an application process in March and

something was missed on the deadline, I remember reaching out to the department

and you responded right away. I want to thank you for that. There was some

confusion over timing and so on. Anyway, there is a really dedicated group of

people working on the board and the folks that are there. Thank goodness for

that.

What about the in-person training? I raised this with the minister recently. We

think that this could be a possibility to get this back at the college. I think

it was stopped about eight years ago. Where are we on possibly getting that

reinstated for the ECEs?

T. OSBORNE:

Mary may want to expand, as well.

I think COVID presented some challenges, but we have had discussions with the

College of the North Atlantic. In fact, one of the private colleges has raised

the issue with me as well.

Either Candice, I guess, in terms of the College of the North Atlantic, or Mary

can expand on that a little bit.

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Yes, just to further support what the minister has said, we've had some

discussions with the college very recently. There's a commitment for some robust

discussion on this in the coming months, particularly as we get closer to a

post-pandemic. As well, we will be having some discussions with the private

training institution to see about what sort of innovative models we can pursue

collectively. I think now the opportunity for post-secondary in the same

department as K-to-12 is going to provide some really interesting opportunities

to think differently about some of these issues.

P. TRIMPER:

Candice, that's about a 16-month course or something like that, is it?

M. GOSS-PROWSE:

The diploma is actually four full semesters and an intersession, so it's two and

a bit years. The certificate level is two semesters, so that would be a one-year

program.

I believe they're introducing, as well, in the fall a post-diploma certificate

in administration, which is sorely needed because many of the people that are

also running the child care centres really don't have an administrative

background; they have an early learning background. That extra year for those

that are doing administration will also be helpful in making sure the centres

are viable and are run appropriately. Yes, there's a whole lot going on and

we're really hopeful that we'll see a little bit of movement this year around

that.

On the side of that, we also offer numerous bursaries. We have bursaries for

people doing the distance program on a per-course basis. We pay $250 per course.

We pay a bursary for if they have to do a field placement at the college, up to

$2,500, to cover some of their expenses. We also have a graduate bursary for

those that finished the full diploma: $7,500 with a three-year return in service

in the sector. There are things we're doing as well on the side of that that are

hopefully encouraging people.

In terms of wages, we do an ELCC Supplement, which is an income supplement

that's paid directly to the ECEs on top of what their employer pays. It doesn't

matter what the employer pays; anyone Level 1 or up to Level 4 can get between

$12,900 a year, up to $16,900 a year, depending on their qualifications and the

job they hold. That does impact salaries for those that are qualified.

P. TRIMPER:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

I guess we can move past this subheading now or right to the next one or …?

CHAIR:

Are you finished in that section?

B. PETTEN:

I asked my question on that subheading. I have lots of other questions.

CHAIR:

But you're done with this section?

B. PETTEN:

What's that?

CHAIR:

Are you done with this section?

B. PETTEN:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MHA Dinn, are you finished with this?

J. DINN:

I have one question, but a number of general questions that will tie into

others. I'll ask the one question on 1.1.01 as long as I can come back to some

of the other questions after we move on if that's all right.

CHAIR:

Yes.

J. DINN:

Just under 1.2.01, Executive Support, I'm just wondering what actions are being

taken to ensure that changing demographics are being integrated into the

department's strategic plan and long-term strategy and that revenues are being

spent accordingly?

T. OSBORNE:

Changing demographics, you mean in the K-to-12 population?

J. DINN:

Yes. We know that we have an aging population and we heard in the debate today

that our population is projected to decline. I'm looking at schools I visited,

even like La Poile, where you had three students. So I'm just looking at overall

T. OSBORNE:

One second. I apologize, if you could take off your mask because it's a little

hard to hear you.

J. DINN:

I forget to put it on when I'm supposed to and take it off when I'm – come

September, please.

That's what I'm basically looking at: the changing population. Will we see an

increasing number of people in large urban areas, that kind of thing? I'm just

wondering if there is some planning for that as well.

T. OSBORNE:

I can probably ask Robyn to step in, but it is a topic of discussion in the

department. I mean, you see some schools with shrinking populations within the

school. COVID has taught us a lot, whether or not if there's a population of two

or three students in a school that you can combine the education of that class

with another. I'm not saying that there's a decision made, but it's something

worth looking at.

Those are some of the discussions in areas where it is becoming more and more

difficult to provide a solid education because of the shrinking population. If

you get down to two or three or five students in a school, are you able to have

somebody go to that school one or two days a week but have them learn online the

remainder of the time? Do they get a better education? I'm not prepared to

provide you with an answer to that yet because we don't know. Those are the

types of questions in the future that I think you need an analysis around.

Outside of that, Robyn, did you want to –?

J. DINN:

To that point, I'm thinking of schools in town that, by the time they were

built, were already over capacity. I'm thinking in Torbay and these places.

T. OSBORNE:

It is urbanization, and you're right. When the school was planned, it was

probably planned for a certain population, but because of urbanization, people

are moving to the metro areas.

J. DINN:

Yes, and that is where my question is going with that one.

R. HAYES:

One of the things we do each year is the teacher allocations. That involves

looking at the enrolment from this school year and determining where the

students reside, the makeup of the students, the grades that they're in and the

teachers that are required. We figure out what the declining enrolment is and,

coinciding with that, the decline in the number of teachers we need to deploy.

We also look at things when we are planning for schools and where new schools

need to be built and given the infrastructure that we have. All of that is taken

into account yearly and on our yearly planning for future years. That is one of

the examples of how the changing demographics factor in every year into our

calculations.

I'm sure there are a great many other things on the post-secondary side,

Candice, I guess looking at who is enrolling in the university and the different

campuses they attend, those sorts of things. Those are always being considered

as per the changing demographics.

J. DINN:

Okay.

I will just go and pick out a few of the other questions that I have there, but

that's the last of my questions on that section.

CHAIR:

Okay, are you finished with that section?

J. DINN:

I am. Like I said, I have general questions.

CHAIR:

I ask the Clerk to recall the grouping, please.

CLERK:

1.1.01 to 1.2.01 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 to 1.2.01 carry?

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 1.2.01 carried.

CHAIR:

I ask the Clerk to call the next group of subheads, please.

CLERK:

2.1.01 to 2.1.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 2.1.01 to 2.1.02 carry?

MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you very much.

I just have a couple of questions on this

section and then I'm going to ask some

general ones.

Under Administrative Support, 2.1.01, under Salaries, it's $145,000 less than

budgeted in '20-'21 and it went back up; can you explain why that's the case?

R. HAYES:

We did have some vacancies in this area during the year. Some have been filled

during the year; others have become vacant. Currently, we may have one or two

positions vacant, but those are in the recruitment stages. Also impacting this

budget last year was we didn't hire any summer students. We were just at the

start of the pandemic so we didn't bring in summer students, as a lot of us were

still working at home at that point, and we didn't hire a co-op student during

the summer semester last year as well.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under Professional Services, there was a large drop balance and I guess my

question what's included in those professional services – why was it dropped

last year? Is that something we can save this year as well?

R. HAYES:

We had a planned legislative review that we were planning to do last fiscal

year, but because of COVID, it really put us behind in recruiting someone to

take on that legislative review. We're hoping to move forward with that this

year. There was a small professional service required on an actuarial

calculation for a pension and that was the only professional services we

required. But we are looking at those legislative reviews this year, so we will

require the budget and that's why it was back in.

B. PETTEN:

This amount is only going to be short term? This $112,000, once that review is

done that will go back down again.

R. HAYES:

Well, every year we do zero-based budgeting, so it really gets factored in then

what the plans are for the department in the coming year. It's not just for

legislative reviews; it's for any professional services under the purview of

what we may need done, any reviews that may need to be carried out or any other

professional services. It's really determined during each budget cycle, when we

do the zero-based, what's going to be required.

B. PETTEN:

That $112,000 should stay pretty constant according to that.

R. HAYES:

Depending on what the plan is for future years, it could roughly be around

$100,000 each year depending on what's planned.

B. PETTEN:

I don't really have a question, but I have to ask a question – general.

2.1.02, Assistance to Educational Agencies and Advisory Committees: Those Grants

and Subsidies, what are they basically?

R. HAYES:

That's a pretty standard line item every budget. In here, you will see the money

for the T. I. Murphy Centre, so that's the greatest portion of this budget. Each

year we give them approximately $866,000.

B. PETTEN:

What group is that again?

R. HAYES:

T. I. Murphy Centre.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

R. HAYES:

We also have a Cultural Connection Strategy that has about $415,600. The Council

of Atlantic Ministers of Education and Training receives $119,000. The Council

of Ministers of Education, Canada also receive an amount, as well as the

Federation of School Councils, the Learning Disabilities Association, and

Encounters with Canada. There is a set amount every year.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Can I get a list of those later?

R. HAYES:

They'll be in the binder when you –

B. PETTEN:

Okay, perfect, thank you.

T. OSBORNE:

There is a private name here; we should probably redact that, for pension

purposes.

B. PETTEN:

No sweat. No problem.

T. OSBORNE:

A person we paid a pension out to, probably – you'll know what the redaction is

when you get the book.

B. PETTEN:

That's fair enough, makes sense.

Minister, this is probably a question I already know, but it's good to have it

on record. I think you and the Premier maybe said it. I know you did. Whether it

was a conversation, you said it during the House.

MUN would be expected to appear before Public Accounts on a go-forward basis,

correct?

T. OSBORNE:

Yes, exactly.

B. PETTEN:

So the legislation will have to be changed obviously. That will come when the

MUN Act is reviewed. When the new MUN Act is in place that will be part of the

MUN Act.

T. OSBORNE:

Yes, once they're given the autonomy that they're looking for and they want,

part of that will be expanded access to the Auditor General and part of it will

be the fact that they will come and appear before the House for Estimates. In

terms of the 75 hours or whatever, the House, the Management Commission or

somebody is going to have to work out how they fit in. I'm just promising to

deliver them here. You can figure out what the hours look like.

B. PETTEN:

Figure it out from there, yeah.

For the AG, there will be no way of denying access to the AG as well under this

new set up, right?

T. OSBORNE:

No, that's correct.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, that's good to hear.

Under this autonomy that MUN may get, are there any safeguards in place that

tuition don't – that's my fear. Actually, I probably said that publicly. I'm

fearful sometimes with giving too much autonomy to institutions that have so

much input and so much investment from public money. If tuition were to increase

double or triple – we don't know that. The president is after making a reference

that it could triple. What assurances – the protection I should say are in place

that we can get some relative – especially for the Newfoundland students?

T. OSBORNE:

I'll ask Candice to expand a little bit, once I provide some comments. There are

other institutions that have their academic autonomy as well as fiscal autonomy

in the country. One of the things in our discussions – because MUN does set the

tuition, not government. Government set the tuition freeze. Once we remove the

tuition freeze, it is up to Memorial to determine what their tuitions are.

One of the things we'd asked them to be cognizant of is remaining competitive.

My understanding is when they announce what they are going to announce that they

will be competitive, not only with Atlantic but across the country.

One of the safeguards we have is the tuitions have to be realistic or

competitive or they won't attract students. In terms of Newfoundland and

Labrador students, we have indicated in the budget and the details are being

worked on and will coincide with MUN figuring out what their tuition is, but we

will put in place an expanded access to grants for local Newfoundland and

Labrador students.

One of the benefits of government pulling out of the tuition-freeze game is the

fact that regardless of where you came from, the tuition freeze kept tuition

cheap. Taxpayers in this province, regardless of where you came from, subsidized

your education. Now, to a certain degree, Canadian students, regardless of what

province they go to, receive the benefit of being subsidized by taxpayers in

that province. International students are generally treated differently and

generally pay for the cost of their education.

I'm not presuming what MUN is going to come out with; I'll leave that up to

them. We're not dictating what they should put in place in terms of tuition. Our

response will be instead of taxpayers in this province guaranteeing the lowest

tuitions in the country for everybody, we're going to put a plan in place to

ensure that local Newfoundland and Labrador students have access to enhanced,

increased, expanded grants.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you very much.

T. OSBORNE:

Candice, did you want to add to that?

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

I think what I would add is Dr. Timmons is on record in reaction to the budget

this week of speaking to three principles. I don't recall specifically the

wording she used, but I think it talked about what the minister just addressed,

which is remaining competitive, ensuring that students are not negatively

impacted and also make sure that current students will have an opportunity to be

grandparented in.

Certainly, the decision around tuition is Memorial's decision. For us to be able

to say to you specifically what the impact will be, we will need to see exactly

how they plan to model that out over the next number of years in terms of

increment and in terms of sequence.

We have, I would say, the most progressive student aid package in all of Canada.

That has set us up really well. I would also suggest to you that in raising

tuition, there are lots of examples across Canada. Rob may be able to speak to

that quickly. But where we can draw upon the best practices and the lessons

learned, more importantly, of how we can ensure that Newfoundland and Labrador

students are treated in the way that we would want to see them treated as they

pursue their post-secondary education.

Rob, anything further to add?

R. FEAVER:

There are hundreds of examples I can come of the top of my head on targeted

needs-based grants that flourish across the country. Building a model in

response to the tuition increase at Memorial will not be an onerous task

whatsoever. We have a lot to go on. The federal program has needs-based grants

now that target low-income families. They're progressive: They decline as family

income goes up. The maximum beneficiaries are those with the highest level need.

We have lots of examples to build on from that.

B. PETTEN:

Thanks.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

MHA Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Under

section 2.1.01, the payout for Employee Benefits was lower than expected

last year. Why? Please.

R. HAYES:

The majority of this budget is for our WorkplaceNL premiums. Those costs

fluctuate yearly. We never know what exactly they're going to be. We've had them

be as low as $13,000; we've had them as high as $89,000. It's really a juggling

act of what the right mix is there. Last year there was less requirement on the

worker's compensation.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Also under that section, expenses on Purchased Services and Property,

Furnishings and Equipment were lower than expected as well. What purchases were

anticipated but didn't get made, didn't happen?

R. HAYES:

The majority of those costs there are the Xerox costs for the department. With

so many of us working from home for portions of the year, there were less

requirements on the printing from the Xerox machines. That's what accounted for

the discrepancy there.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

You want to get a new perspective on photocopiers, go to a school. It's one of

the sources of stress.

Under 2.1.02, Assistance to Educational Agencies and Advisory Committees, I'm

just curious, with regard to the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of School

Councils, has their operating grant been bumped up to $50,000? I think that was

one recommendation we had talked about when I was first elected. I'm just

wondering what the grant is that's provided to them now. Is it $50,000? I think

there was a move towards that.

R. HAYES:

It's currently at $40,000.

J. DINN:

Okay.

R. HAYES:

But it's something that can certainly be explored further, if the minister so

wishes. We can do some analysis on that to see what it should be set at.

J. DINN:

No, and I appreciate that. The fact is I think, Minister, when you and I first

talked about this way back they had been cut. I'm glad to see that it's moving

in the right direction, and especially now as we move towards a system where the

district is integrated into the – I think they'll provide a valuable body to

consult with as well.

If I may, can we have an update on the hiring of 10 teachers for

immunocompromised students? I'm assuming all these positions have been filled.

What are the plans for those in September? Like I said, I know many of us will

be vaccinated, but I'm just wondering for those immunocompromised students who

may not be fully integrated back into the system at that time.

R. HAYES:

Yes, the 10 teachers were hired this year for that. I guess it would really be

an analysis of what school looks like in September as we do move forward in the

pandemic and if they will be required to that level. We do a teacher allocation,

as we said, every year, so we do allocate the teachers. How they are deployed is

really determined at the district level. It would be for them to determine if

the enrolment in virtual learning is required for the teachers to be hired.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Is there any information yet on how the adult literacy pilot program is working

and how many people were helped by it? Or implementing the literacy action plan

in general, any information on that?

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

We're in year three of the Adult Literacy Action Plan. Certainly, there is

significant progress that's occurring. We did experience, like most departments,

some interruptions due to COVID in terms of the workflow. Actually, what we

ended up doing was looking at a reprioritization of some of those actions to

focus more specifically on employer needs and learner needs in the advent of

online, and also look at what has changed. The plan itself was actually created

to be fluid and to adapt, because we know that the circumstances for adult

learners are changing consistently.

One of the things that I can report is that we have looked at a foundational

literacy program, which we launched this past year in The Gathering Place. We

actually have 13 clients currently enrolled, availing of foundational literacy

including basic digital literacy and numeracy skills. We know that there is

interest from three additional clients. We have seen some really great wins in

terms of some of the new approaches we are taking to some of our literacy

programming.

J. DINN:

How many in the pilot program all together? I don't know if you said that.

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Thirteen students. Sorry, the update as of this past month, it has been 13

clients. We launched this program just before Christmas. We have interest right

now from three additional. We are hoping that we will see anywhere from 16 to 20

clients in this program by the fall.

J. DINN:

Okay. Thank you. Perfect.

So that 13, those are the 13 at The Gathering Place.

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Thirteen clients at The Gathering Place have been confirmed as actively engaged

in the foundational pilot for this literacy program.

J. DINN:

Okay. Perfect, appreciate that.

Can we have an update –?

T. OSBORNE:

Jim, I'll just add to that.

This program, even now, is a huge success. The clients at The Gathering Place

would ordinarily not make their way to the Murphy Centre. This is reaching out

to them directly. If we get even one of them – improve their life and develop

the confidence because they've attained a high school equivalency and get

gainful employment, through the course of their life, this program pays for

itself.

J. DINN:

You'll get no argument from me, Minister. I can tell you, colleagues of mine who

teach at Brother T. I. who had students when they were in school and it is only

then at the Brother T. I. Murphy Centre that they realize that they unburdened

and let them know what they were going through while they were at school. You

catch them where you can. The public school system is not meant for everyone at

that one time. No, you won't get any argument that they are contributing members

of society.

I can think of one constituent of mine: She has gone back to upgrade and she is

now looking at becoming an assistant in an office. And that's just getting her

eyesight back. It is fantastic.

Could we have an update on how work is progressing on the new francophone

school? I think last year's budget included $2.5 million to site development.

Has this been completed yet? If so, what are the next steps?

T. OSBORNE:

At this particular stage, there's nothing concrete, Jim.

The school they were looking for would accommodate about 500 students; we only

have 350 province-wide. One of the facilities that I think may suit the purposes

– there's been some discussion – is the School for the Deaf. It's a good

building. It's very conveniently located close to Pitts Memorial Drive, to Team

Gushue and to the Harbour Arterial, so no matter where you are in the region

you'll have quick access to that facility.

The initial estimate on a new school for the francophone school district is $44

million. Based on my time here in the Legislature, if the estimate is $44

million, you're $50 million, $55 million or maybe $60 million by the time it's

done. I'd rather focus on available infrastructure if it suits the needs, and I

think, one example, the School for the Deaf could.

J. DINN:

Even where they are right now, the second school.

I will say this, and I'll put it on the record: I would not support the building

of a new school out in Galway. The problem with the francophone school is when

it comes to programming. It's not about the building that's keeping people from

there, but the lack – and if you look at the studies that they provided, by the

time they get to Grade 8 or 9 the enrolment drops off because a lot of the

offered. I agree with that, at least until the numbers are up and then you can

look at it. I think we have the School for the Deaf and even the current

facility right now, which used to be Holy Cross. To me, I think there are other

priorities, for sure.

Can we have an update to, I guess, the Inuit Bachelor of Education? It's an

exemplar and I had a chance to visit some of the students many years ago. A true

partnership between the Nunatsiavut Government and the MUN faculty of education.

Does the department plan, then, to create programs similar to the IBED program

for other Indigenous groups to promote reconciliation and empowerment? If I

remember correctly, there might have been some talk about this in the last

Estimates meeting.

T. OSBORNE:

(Inaudible.)

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

T. OSBORNE:

Candice?

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

We're going to have to get some information on that because it's not something

that I'm familiar with.

J. DINN:

Okay.

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

You're speaking specifically around the Bachelor of Education?

J. DINN:

I think it was up in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, but anyway, that these are

graduates who then go back to the communities.

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Right.

J. DINN:

That was for the Inuit, but I'm thinking of other Indigenous groups.

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Okay.

J. DINN:

Will there be a similar program offered for other Indigenous groups? That's what

I was after.

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Okay.

I am familiar with the program that you're referencing. Certainly, we have not

engaged with Memorial specifically around the pursuit of a similar type of

programming with other communities, but it is something we'll take back to

certainly consider. If there are opportunities there to have that discussion

with Memorial, we'll pursue it.

CHAIR:

Okay.

The Member's time has expired.

MHA Trimper.

P. TRIMPER:

I'm going to wait until we get into the post-secondary and I'll take my

opportunity then. Thanks.

CHAIR:

All right.

MHA Petten, do you have any more questions?

B. PETTEN:

I have some general ones. I have no more on the headings, but I have general

questions.

CHAIR:

MHA Dinn, do you have any more on this section?

J. DINN:

This section, no, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

Okay.

I ask the Clerk to recall the grouping.

CLERK:

2.1.01 to 2.1.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 2.1.01 to 2.1.02 carry?

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

On motion, subheads 2.1.01 through 2.1.02 carried.

CHAIR:

I ask the Clerk to call the next grouping.

CLERK:

3.1.01 to 3.6.01 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 3.1.01 to 3.6.01 carry?

MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you very much.

I have a few questions on this here.

Under 3.1.01, Teaching Services, under the Grants and Subsidies, why the

additional $10 million for Regular Teachers? Do we expect to see an increase

this year?

R. HAYES:

Are you talking about the budget '21-'22 increase? Or are you talking about the

actuals, where we went from a budget in 2021 of –

B. PETTEN:

Well, it is kind of relative, because it went up $10 million and it is kind of

staying up there.

R. HAYES:

Okay.

B. PETTEN:

It's gone up again. It's gone up two amounts, really.

R. HAYES:

I'll explain both. As you're aware, we had some federal restart funding, so

there we added extra resources into the school system for COVID. We added in

money for additional guidance counsellors, additional admin, those virtual

teachers that were referred to, as well as some terms substitutes. That accounts

for the increase in 2020-21.

The big thing happening in '21-'22, as the school year has not yet ended, a

portion of those salaries will be reflected in the remainder of the school year.

Also happening next year is a 27th pay period. The way the calendar falls and

the pay periods, how they fall, there's a 27th pay period for teachers in

'21-'22. There's been an increase put in there to cover that additional pay

period.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under Substitute Teachers, it's approximately $15.8 million and it looks to me

like a drop balance. Where were these savings directed? I understand that

Substitute Teachers dropped because schools were closed.

R. HAYES:

Exactly.

B. PETTEN:

I'm answering my own question, yes. That's why, was it? Schools were closed and

the teachers were home, okay.

R. HAYES:

Yes, schools were closed and we didn't need substitutes.

B. PETTEN:

You don't do that very often in here.

Substitute Teachers, does the same thing apply there with the $3.5 million?

R. HAYES:

Sorry, which line?

B. PETTEN:

Substitute Teachers.

R. HAYES:

Substitute Teachers, so there was the decrease in the actuals because the

schools were closed, but we're anticipating that the schools will hopefully be

open.

B. PETTEN:

It's all COVID-related with the schools, the same thing.

R. HAYES:

Yes, it's all COVID.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, I figured that.

3.1.02, under School Board Operations, Purchased Services: There was an increase

of $627,000 last year. Can you explain that?

R. HAYES:

Yes. That is for property and liability insurance on school buildings. The

premium went up in '20-'21.

B. PETTEN:

Really?

R. HAYES:

Yes.

B. PETTEN:

So basically the insurance, wow.

R. HAYES:

Went up.

B. PETTEN:

Everyone gets dinged by insurance. It's not just us, Jim.

Grants and Subsidies, the Operating Grant: Why is there approximately $6 million

additional amount in that?

R. HAYES:

That is some of the COVID funding that was in there. In this line item, you

would see the custodial extra hours that were put in there for the extra

cleaning in the buildings and the extra hours for the custodians. They would be

accounted for in that line item there. The laptops would also be in there as

well.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

3.1.04, under School Supplies, Operating Accounts: It was less, $372,000, so is

that again less requirements post-COVID or …?

R. HAYES:

Under the School Supplies line?

B. PETTEN:

Yes, 3.1.04, it's a decrease of $372,000 from what it was.

R. HAYES:

One of the things that are accounted for here is the parent resource kits that

are sent out. When you take your child for their immunizations at the Public

Health office, you usually leave with this parent resource kit with resources;

there is a book in there and some educational material for children at various

stages. Because of COVID, these kits were not given out during this fiscal year.

We didn't have to mail out the kits to the various Public Health organizations

to keep them stocked with the kits because they weren't allowed to give them

out.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

3.2.01, under Curriculum Development, Transportation and Communications – I know

we talked about this earlier. Is the plan to keep Transportation and

Communications as it is with the hope that an adjustment can be made next year?

Am I correct (inaudible)?

So we're going to see this right through – we see this amount, the dip and then

it staying stable. Is this just kind of a trial run this year to see if you can

function in a normal world with less travel? Okay. Good.

Professional Services, an additional $66,500 spent from last year. Can you

explain what that is about? Or where that went?

B. CLARKE:

Normally, the departments work inside curriculum and other related curriculum

policies and programs would occur through working groups in the school year,

which by the department would supply substitutes and travel or online virtual.

With the shutdown, the departments will continue, but there was an increased

emphasis on summer work. Teachers are off then and you don't provide them a

substitute, so you give them a daily stipend to work for us for two or three

days. So that would be the significant increase for last summer.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Purchased Services went from $70,000 to $5,600 and back up to $70,000. Really, I

suppose, what wasn't spent last year? What did that cover? What was that

involved with?

R. HAYES:

Because a lot of these meetings couldn't occur face to face, there was no

requirement for room rentals or meeting costs, which would be charged to

Purchased Services. So while we have seen the increase during the summer work

for the virtual in the teacher pay, we also had an offsetting savings because we

couldn't meet face to face.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

3.2.02, under Language Programs, Operating Accounts: Professional Services have

returned to pre-COVID levels. So what's included in that, I should say?

B. CLARKE:

Professional Services in that budget line is associated with translations. As I

alluded to in the previous answer, COVID made our work kind of shift forward. So

what was planned for some French translations of curriculum (inaudible) guides,

policy work, the new responsive teaching and learning didn't occur in a timely

way. So we would anticipate that returning.

B. PETTEN:

I guess more of a general question. It would make you wonder when we get a year

under us, and hopefully COVID is a thing of the past, there may be a lot of

things changed right through government with all departments and budget lines if

I am not –

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, no doubt about it.

B. PETTEN:

That seems to be a theme here.

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, I think we've learned a lot from COVID and I think you'll see some

adaptions as a result.

B. PETTEN:

And savings.

T. OSBORNE:

The only thing we're not saving here tonight – I thought when Elizabeth

Gallagher retired the heat would –

B. PETTEN:

I know.

T. OSBORNE:

We used to honestly think that Elizabeth Gallagher used to turn the heat up

later into the evening to drive us home. Get us tired instead of – but anyway, I

think the ghost of Elizabeth is in the building.

B. PETTEN:

Yeah, they can never get that right over here, can they.

Under 3.2.02, Allowances and Assistance, it's dropped to $28,000 from

$1,070,000. So can you explain that, please?

B. CLARKE:

That's associated with programming to support teacher and student travel,

largely. I mean, there are several programs in there, but they're all sort of

related by getting students and teachers in what we call French milieu. Getting

them to Quebec, to Saint Pierre and New Brunswick, places like that. Of course,

all travel ceased. So that being a significant part of that budget line, it was

a significant decrease.

B. PETTEN:

Grants and Subsidies: Was that why they're under budget this year as well?

B. CLARKE:

Yeah, I should've probably, based on the next line, mentioned that one. Of

course, what we did as a department, we wanted to hold – I mean having students

learn French and their francophone identity for French-first language it's

really important that they have these experiences. Of course, in Newfoundland

and Labrador, largely surrounded by a very large anglophone population. What we

did as a department, we sought out new opportunities to provide more resources,

more reading. We partnered with several NGOs to provide local, virtual and by

producing resources for when we do get back to normal they'll still be there and

B. PETTEN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

MHA Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

With regard to school counsellors, I know we had hired on some extra this year,

a part of COVID. I'm just wondering: Are there any plans to increase the number

or maintain the number of school counsellors in the school?

T. OSBORNE:

We've increased the provincial budget, so administration and guidance we

increased last year as a result of COVID. But the provincial budget we've

increased for the administration and guidance. That increased, so we're going to

maintain it and we found the money within the department to maintain it. So,

yes, those numbers, the increase that you saw last year in guidance will stay.

J. DINN:

That's positive news, Minister. I'll say that. It's a good start.

Is there anything in the budget here to accommodate counsellors in terms of

their increased workload and the fact that they may have to travel between

schools? Maybe not a problem or so much an issue in St. John's, but I'm thinking

even on the Northern Peninsula where you might have one counsellor responsible

for several schools that are geographically dispersed. They may have a lower

total number of students on their caseload, but there's travelling. Is there any

attempt to address those challenges?

T. OSBORNE:

I'm thinking that would be a Robyn question.

R. HAYES:

Again, that would be determined during the teacher allocation, so how the

district would deploy those guidance counsellors would be at their purview. We

would give the allocation, but how they are deployed would be up to the district

to determine.

J. DINN:

You realize, of course, once the district and the NLESD are integrated you won't

be able to give me that answer, right? I'm just saying.

Last fall we had problems with the hiring of custodians. I'm just wondering how

the situation is now. Do we have a full slate of custodial employees in the

schools? Are there any regions in particular where we're having trouble finding

staff? Just what are the plans for, really, the upcoming school year with regard

to custodians?

R. HAYES:

To my knowledge, all of the additional custodians that were put in for COVID,

hours were topped up and temporary employees were added in. Those were all, to

my knowledge, hired. We will have to see what the school reopening plan will

look like for September and where we are with COVID to determine what the

requirements will be there.

J. DINN:

Thank you very much for that.

Under 3.1.01, is it possible to have the breakdown of teachers who are – you're

not going to be able to give this to me now, but is it possible to have a

breakdown of the number of teachers employed in the province by region and maybe

the grade and specialty, if possible. Specialty may be a bit more difficult, but

grade level and leave and so on and so forth.

I know that in the plans last year when the district had its task force, it did

have that breakdown. I'm looking for something along those lines for this year

and for upcoming, if possible.

T. OSBORNE:

J. DINN:

Excellent. Thank you.

Do we have any idea of the number of teachers who retired last year – because I

think it would have been a good year to retire in many ways – and maybe the

number of teacher retirements for this year? Do you have any indication of that?

T. OSBORNE:

Again, Robyn, that would have to come from the district? Yeah.

J. DINN:

Okay. Thank you.

T. OSBORNE:

You're premature on your questions.

J. DINN:

Oh, I know.

T. OSBORNE:

Eighteen months from now, you can ask us.

J. DINN:

Good.

Like I said, if I were teaching at this time, my last year, it might have been a

good time to get out of Dodge. In changes in enrolment since last year, do we

have any data on this and maybe a breakdown?

T. OSBORNE:

Again, I think (inaudible).

R. HAYES:

Based on the AGR, the difference from the 2019-20 school year to '20-'21 is down

about 212 students.

J. DINN:

Okay, is that consistent then? Two hundred and twelve doesn't seem to be a lot,

but is –

R. HAYES:

No.

J. DINN:

So it's probably less than what happened before, is it?

R. HAYES:

It is probably a lower year for declining enrolment this year.

J. DINN:

Is it plateauing at all?

R. HAYES:

I don't have any future year's data; we usually base it on every year's AGR and

what comes in under that.

J. DINN:

Okay. Thank you.

Under 3.1.02, has there been any feedback on the logistics and the challenges of

cleaning and disinfecting school buses? If there were any, how were they

resolved?

T. OSBORNE:

Robyn, do you have any – I mean, I haven't heard any complaints or concerns.

J. DINN:

Okay. Thank you.

You've heard me ask this one before: Have we looked at the purchase of fogging

machines to disinfect schools? I'm asking this knowing that some of the research

now suggests that COVID-19 is primarily aerosol and that touch is probably the

least way it's going to be transmitted.

I notice we still haven't used a fogging machine here. I'm just wondering, are

there any plans to have those in place for schools?

T. OSBORNE:

Not that I know of, Jim. I mean, in discussions with Public Health, they didn't

seem to put a great deal of credence in the fogging machines. In discussions

that I've had, the focus was on cleaning high-touch areas.

Having said that, we're now learning that it is more aerosol than it is – less

risk of picking it up by touching. So I think the information continues to

evolve on this, but the latest understanding we have is it is more aerosol.

J. DINN:

Yeah.

A question I meant to ask earlier: I think in the budget there's $1 million

allocated for improving of ventilation, if I read it correctly. How's that to be

spent? That's for the schools, I take it, but what will that be used for? Is

that to upgrade existing or to start looking at putting mechanical ventilation

in –?

T. OSBORNE:

Robyn, you may be able to speak to it to some degree.

I know last year any school with a ventilation system, the system was checked,

serviced and they were operating. The other thing, through the All-Party

Committee, we had the identification of screens on windows. We ensured that

windows in classrooms were operational and a minimal of one window per classroom

had to be screened. The district set out to ensure that at least one window was

screened.

In terms of what's happening this year – Robyn?

R. HAYES:

With regard to what would be happening this year, the alterations and

improvement budget for the school actually resides with Transportation and

Infrastructure, so any of the details would be with them. The department would

act as a liaison between the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure and

the two school districts to get a listing of their priorities and where the

needs would be. But, ultimately, TI would have the details on where it would be

required.

J. DINN:

A question, then, and this goes back to many years ago. Depending on the project

– renovation, building construction, whatever – it could be under TI, the

Department of Education or the school district. Is it now under one department,

like TI? So anything to do with school maintenance, building construction: all

of that would be under Transportation?

R. HAYES:

The maintenance of the buildings would be under the school districts, your

general maintenance and your small stuff. But any larger alterations and

improvements or new builds would all be within TI and not the department.

J. DINN:

Excellent.

What accounts for the increased spending last year on Purchased Services? Why

has this item gone up in this year's budget? You may have said that already but

I don't have it here.

R. HAYES:

Yes, MHA Petten asked that. That was for increased property and liability

insurance. For this year, we did get a little bit extra on that. The premiums

actually have RST on them that were being mistreated as HST. We have been given

the budget to cover off that expense under this line item.

J. DINN:

Thank you very much.

The department actually overspent last year on Transportation of School Children

by about $9 million. Was this money used to purchase new buses? Is this part of

the $26 million from the federal government?

T. OSBORNE:

Any of the federal funding that came in to the province; we still have to show

where we spend it. The district didn't purchase all the buses; they purchased

some, they contracted others. The increase, Robyn –

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, it's a show through. The revenue would have gone to general revenue, but

it shows here as an expense.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

Do we want to take a break now for 10 minutes? Is everyone okay with that?

T. OSBORNE:

If you guys want to try to get out 10 minutes early or whatever, I'm cool to go,

but I am cool to break if you want to.

B. PETTEN:

I could keep going. It doesn't matter to me.

CHAIR:

Okay. Keep going.

The Member's time has expired.

MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you very much.

I want to go back to Transportation of School Children. Some would know – maybe

all know – it's one of my biggest crusades. I was talking to a lady this

morning. I said, well, I'll continue on, I suppose, one of these days. I won't

stop until I leave politics and hopefully one day someone will agree with me.

The 1.6 busing policy: I know this is probably a bit hard to answer right now

because you're looking at busing as a provincial issue, where a 1.6 busing is

more of a metro area, even a suburban more area than even the heart of St.

John's. What is the cost of providing busing, I guess, to those metro schools?

They're all in that area that requires – the demand for 1.6 busing is more than

other places. Is there any analysis on that?

T. OSBORNE:

The last time I spoke with Mr. Stack on it, I don't know if they have a

definitive cost, but they did say it was in the multi-millions.

B. PETTEN:

That's the overall cost of the busing.

T. OSBORNE:

No, no, of eliminating the 1.6.

B. PETTEN:

Multi-millions.

I guess there's no provision for going from five to seven, or seven to 10 or

three to – do you know what I'm saying? That's all the number –

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, we didn't break it down. We just looked at it overall. Like I said, I

don't know if they had an actual definitive cost, but Mr. Stack did indicate

that you'd be talking multi-millions if you were to eliminate the 1.6.

B. PETTEN:

Would that be something that you could request or ask to get, that they could

provide, or is there any –?

T. OSBORNE:

I think there's a fair bit of work actually involved, because you have to GPS

where the pickups would be, where students live and the routes.

Right now, if you're within the 1.6, they haven't routed the streets, other than

courtesy runs, and courtesy runs are generally a stop. Children will walk to a

particular area and get picked up if there's room available on the bus. But I

think there's a fair bit of work involved with that because they'd have to map

where the students actually live and determine what streets the buses would have

to go on. So it's really a guess until they actually do the work to determine

where every student lives.

B. PETTEN:

This appears to be a question that's always asked and no one ever really gives a

definitive answer.

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, because it's difficult to give a definitive answer unless they – you know,

if the policy decision was made that we were going to pay the multi-millions

we'd figure out then based on them mapping every student. They'd have to figure

out every student address and build a map for the bus. If a bus is full, you

obviously can't go down – so it would change the configuration of busing routes

as well because at present you'd have to add additional buses. But it is really

a change in mapping configuration if you were to build that in. They could

probably guess but it would be a guess.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Another area too – and this is in my own district as well, and I realize the

financial situation we are in, obviously. I don't know if any of your officials

are aware of or if there has been anything made to the department on this or

not. It is probably at the school district level. Frank Roberts has no

cafeteria. It is an old school – it was my high school, actually, but now it is

junior high. We did have a cafeteria when we were there but now that is

converted to class space. It is a room up there. I seen it myself last year, I

believe, before COVID.

I think in this day and age, we're looking at all of the healthy eating and

trying to improve things, so I think it is a big void. I don't know if you're

aware of that, or your officials were aware of that, or if there are any plans

to address that. I think that is something that was alarming to me when I found

out. It is a busy school, as you know. There is a high population.

T. OSBORNE:

I'm sure the district is aware, but I wasn't aware of that. We could engage and

I could – you're welcome to give Mr. Stack a call on your own, or I could

arrange a call with Mr. Stack on that. I don't know the logistics, what the

student population is, or whether or not there is ability to – if the capacity

of the school would allow to find space for a cafeteria. I honestly don't know;

I think that is something we'd have to engage the district on.

B. PETTEN:

Fair enough.

I still have some more questions, but I'll continue on to the line by line.

Under 3.3.01, Student Support Services, not too much there. I notice

Professional Services went from $92,000 to zero, back up to $63,500. Again, I'm

sure it is probably COVID related – that seems to be the rationale but the two

amounts are different. It was at $92,000, went down, and now it has not gone

back up to where it was. Is there an explanation on that?

B. CLARKE:

That was very specific to the new positions in the department called teaching

and learning assistants. That didn't happen in the summer, it was targeted –

that's not to imply that professional learning didn't occur. We did that

throughout the school in the early fall throughout the school year, but

obviously we'd like to return to that model because it really decreases the

impact on the classroom.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Under 3.3.02, Grants and Subsidies, we noticed there's no savings last year and

it's the same number of students. Did we send the same number of students as we

did in the past years? The budget increased by $150,000; can you explain that?

T. STAMP:

That was basically a reprofiling of funding. We pay $150,000 for autism and

orientation and mobility specialists. In prior years that expense, which is paid

to APSEA, was paid out of Purchased Services up in 3.3.01, Student Support

Services. What we've done this year is we reprofiled it down to APSEA to align

it with the APSEA payments.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

3.4.01, Evaluation, Research and Certification, Salaries dropped by a little

less than $100,000.

R. HAYES:

There were some vacancies there during the year at various times. There were

five, but not all at the one time.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Professional Services, I guess, Robyn, you might answer that one, too, the drop

there.

R. HAYES:

The Professional Services here, that's where we charged the marking boards for

the public exams, and because that didn't occur last June we didn't require

that.

B. PETTEN:

Makes perfect sense.

3.5.01, Early Learning and Child Development, I see Supplies – again, I'm

assuming that's another COVID blip on the radar.

R. HAYES:

Yes, it would be, similar to those parent resource kits, there are KinderStart

bags as well, so those would be charged here and that's what would've made up

that savings.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Allowances and Assistance dropped by $9 million last year as well.

R. HAYES:

That's primarily the Child Care Services Subsidy Program. It's application based

and it does fluctuate yearly. Some of the things that occurred with this one

this year was the introduction of the $25 a day, so there's less requirement to

pay a subsidy; it is picked up in another area. Also, during some of the COVID

shutdowns, the department paid compensation grants to the centres. We paid the

centres directly as opposed to having the parents pay; therefore, they didn't

have to get their subsidy, basically.

B. PETTEN:

So the Grants and Subsidies, $28 million budgeted and now it is back up to $41

million. Would that be tied to the $25 daycare?

R. HAYES:

It is, yes.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

MHA Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Just to go back to the

section 3.1.02, I don't really have specific questions

but they are connected to each of the departments.

I was going to ask a question about retirement of older school buses, but I am

just wondering with the 1.6-kilometre rule. If I remember correctly in an

earlier discussion, the amount projected was $30 million to eliminate the – in

an early debate when I was first elected, which is an exorbitant amount of money

in some ways. I am just wondering, within the metro area, especially the area

serviced by the Metrobus, if indeed there could be some arrangement with

Metrobus to take care of busing services.

When I was growing up – and I'm not going to tell you the story of walking

uphill both ways in a snowstorm. Nevertheless, I lived on Shaw Street; not much

different from where I live now and I did go to Holy Cross and I did go to

Brother Rice. Brother Rice is roughly about 3 kilometres away when I look at it.

So if there had been busing at that time, I would have been bused but we walked.

We did take the city bus at that time.

There was a pilot project – I forget which Ontario township – where they had a

combination Uber public service where people could say hey, I need a bus for

tomorrow and the bus would change its route according to who called in. Instead

of waiting, the bus picked them up.

I am just wondering then, with Metrobus, rather than having both the yellow

buses and the Metrobus, why not look at using a system, within the metro area,

where there are bus services. Obviously, that may not work out in further areas

but maybe. That is an idea I am putting out there to maybe have that

conversation, because good luck when you take on the role of busing because that

will become – I'm sure, as Greg knows, busing is probably the biggest headache

even in a non-COVID year. So I'll throw that out there now as to maybe look at

somehow using the Metrobus system that's here and seeing how that can be

integrated into it, just a thought.

I'm just wondering: How has the pandemic affected the

schedule to retire older

buses? That's the question of where I was going. What extra safety measures are

being taken to ensure that older units in the fleet are road safe and ready?

That may change, if I understand what we said, that come the new year we're

probably going to see an alleviation of that anyway.

T. OSBORNE:

Yes, so a couple of thoughts to share with you, Jim.

One is we increased the allowable age of school buses by two years – I believe

it was two years, Robyn? Yeah.

We increased the allowable age of school buses by two years. This year, if we go

back to normal, a number of those buses would not ordinarily be permitted to be

used anyway. But because we needed the buses, we made an allowance and if they

passed inspection, we allow them to be an additional two years older than we

would normally allow, which I believe is 12 years, a 12-year-old bus. Many of

them will come out of service in any event.

The federal government provided us the funding for the additional buses. As we

had outlined earlier, the funding came in through the federal government because

of the pandemic and the need for the additional buses. The money went into

general revenue and then showed as an expense in the department. The buses that

went beyond by the extra two years, they'll come out of service this year.

J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

What is the source of the federal revenue? I guess that's for the buses, then,

correct, in that section?

T. OSBORNE:

Yes.

J. DINN:

Okay, thank you very much.

Under

section 3.2.01, Curriculum Development: Is it possible to have an update

on the expansion of the Brilliant Labs program? There was additional money

announced for this just before the election; what will this go toward?

B. CLARKE:

Brilliant Labs has been a really good partner in helping us progress our

technology program, in particular in the Grades K to 6. So we've actually

partnered with them on a couple of initiatives. One is to get coding and

technology into the hands of kids and help teachers deliver that programming. As

well, we've engaged them to increase experiential learning opportunities for

secondary students where they will help partner students with Verafin and

high-tech companies and getting them that face to face, which unfortunately

right now is still virtual, with actual people using it in their everyday lives.

J. DINN:

Thank you very much.

Would the minister provide us with an update on the development of the

Technology Career Pathway program that is to be rolled out in the 2021-22 school

year?

T. OSBORNE:

Certainly. We announced the schools that we had identified across the province.

We set out initially to identify eight schools and I believe, Brad, we are up to

15, maybe.

B. CLARKE:

It is definitely in the mid-teens, Minister, 14 or 15.

T. OSBORNE:

Fourteen or 15. So we wanted to have representation across the province so that

the peninsulas – there are a couple of schools in Labrador, there is one in Cape

St. Francis I know, one in St. John's and one in CBS and then outside of the

Avalon I think the next closest one would be Carbonear. We look at the four

peninsulas, Labrador and tried to get representation across the province. Some

larger schools, some smaller schools, one of the schools in Labrador we have

arranged through the Centre for Distance Learning to ensure that we tried out

that model as well.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Have there been any moves to develop and roll out anti-racism educational

material at any level of the K-to-12 system? Is there a plan to look at high

school history courses to adapt them to deal with the legacy of colonialism in

this province and in Canada, particularly in light of the recent discovery?

T. OSBORNE:

I'm going to ask Eldred to speak to part of that but my mandate letter looks at

– so, right now, I think there are five social studies courses where we talk

about the schools within the province. The Grade 7 social studies program goes

most in-depth with the residential schools. There is some opportunity within the

that as well. But, most importantly, if you look at a decade ago we didn't have

that information. I'm hesitant to say we've come a long way. We've improved, but

we have a long way to go.

So in the mandate letter that I received from the Premier, there's direction to

increase and enhance Indigenous culture into existing curriculum and to develop

new curriculum that looks at the history, traditions and culture of our

Indigenous populations.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

T. OSBORNE:

Eldred (inaudible).

E. BARNES:

I'll just defer to Brad Clarke in a moment on some of the specifics, but this is

also related to the Education Action Plan and the Indigenous education piece

where we have developed a framework to allow us to work in partnership with the

five Indigenous groups in the province to look at ways and means of ensuring

that they take the lead role in developing the content for this.

So we made some progress but many miles to go. Brad, if you want to add anything

to that?

B. CLARKE:

Yes, we work with all the identified Indigenous communities within the province

in what we call an IEAC: an Indigenous Education Advisory Committee. We've been

meeting them for quite some time. I really echo the minister's words that we've

started on a great path, but we have lots to do there.

Some of the early agenda items by that committee were helping each individual

community with their specific educational needs. So there's been a lot of growth

there. We had a meeting as early as two weeks ago with that group where we

certainly shared our desire to have more of a provincial lens and bring some

Indigenous culture, history and language to have that opportunity for all the

students of Newfoundland and Labrador. So it's certainly in the plan.

I'll just really quickly, while I have the mic, speak to the racism piece. That

wouldn't be targeted in one course, one grade level. It would be a lengthy paper

for me to show you the curricula and, of course, developmentally appropriate

grades that it would be. It starts in primary about acceptance and people being

different and grows right into struggles we've had that have caused wars and the

like up in the secondary program.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

The Member's time is expired.

I just want to confirm if MHA Trimper wishes to speak now or wait until

post-secondary education?

P. TRIMPER:

Post-secondary, are you ready?

CHAIR:

No, do you want to wait until post-secondary?

P. TRIMPER:

I still would like to wait, yeah. Might as well.

CHAIR:

Okay, MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

This is getting old. You wouldn't believe how many times I do that in the run of

a day. I get my earpiece caught up every time.

3.6.01, under Grants and Subsidies, Library Resources Board: Why the $230,000 in

savings, I guess, is the question?

T. OSBORNE:

Don't tell him. Don't tell him.

Go ahead.

R. HAYES:

That $230,000 is for the lease of the CBS library that we're still waiting to be

completed.

B. PETTEN:

Oh, still waiting. Yeah, I know. I hear about that every now and then. It will

happen one of these days.

T. OSBORNE:

I should reach out to the MHA for that area.

B. PETTEN:

Yeah, he's not doing his job. True enough.

A couple of general questions now. The Genesis Centre: Is the Genesis Centre

revenue neutral? Are you aware if it is or if it isn't?

T. OSBORNE:

I'm going to ask Candice to speak to that. I can't say whether or not. I know

they generate revenue.

I will say that when Memorial initially bought the Battery I thought they were

out of their minds, to be quite honest with you. I have become more of a fan of

the Genesis Centre when you look at – whether their rentals generate a revenue

or not, what we've seen in terms of the incubation centre, in particular for the

IT sector, that's something that I didn't envision when they bought the Battery

and I thought: Holy smokes, what the heck are they doing? I remember speaking

about it here in the Legislature.

The incubation centre, the start-ups and the support that they provide to local

businesses I think has paid for the Genesis Centre, in my opinion.

Candice, are you familiar in terms of whether they actually make a profit or

whether it's –?

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

(Inaudible.)

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah.

C. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

I can't speak specifically to the Genesis Centre. We can get that information

for you.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thanks.

These are analysis questions; I know that might shock the minister from our line

of questioning. Analysis on MUN taking over the Geo Centre – and I guess I'll

double it up, because it's also any analysis done on the proposed new law

school. Has there been any analysis done on either one of those items?

T. OSBORNE:

In terms of the Geo Centre, I haven't yet become a fan of the fact that is

operated by MUN as I have with the Genesis Centre. I see the connection, to a

certain degree, with MUN.

In terms of the law school, in this year's budget, during the transition – I

mean, Memorial has always had to come to government and ask for sign off on

acquisitions of real property or increasing their footprint. In this year's

budget, during the transition phase, we're not saying that they can never

increase the size of their footprint but we're talking months before we get

changes to the Memorial University Act .

In the transition phase, we've indicated that government will not be signing off

on any further acquisitions, which would include a law school for example.

B. PETTEN:

Increasing footprint, so to speak, in the budget.

T. OSBORNE:

So they can't increase their footprint during the transition. Once they have

fiscal autonomy and they need to do the analysis and the business case and

determine whether or not it fits into their model and whether or not it makes

business sense, it is up to them to make the case. The decisions that they make,

there is no additional government funding going to chase that. If a law school

covers its costs, it covers its cost. If not, MUN needs to figure out what else

they cut to pay for the law school.

B. PETTEN:

What is the status of junior kindergarten? Is there any as to where that is?

T. OSBORNE:

There is. So it was put on hold during COVID, for obvious reasons. It was just

an additional pressure on the school system if we were to proceed. It is in my

mandate letter and it is part of the discussions that I am having with Minister

Hussen in terms of early learning and child care. We would like to see some

federal involvement if we are going to introduce junior kindergarten because it

is still early learning. Whether or not you could call it early learning and

child care, it is early learning. I think it is a very important step.

We started having some level of discussion with the federal government months

ago, still in the height of the pandemic and knew that they were coming with

something on early learning and child care. Quite honestly, we were anticipating

they were going to land somewhere in the $15-a-day mark, but they're at $10 a

day. I think that's significantly better for young families.

Again, part of that discussion will be early learning and child care. I wouldn't

want to jump the gun on it, announce it, put it in place and realize we've lost

out on federal funding because we announced something before we negotiated with

the feds.

B. PETTEN:

Fair enough.

T. OSBORNE:

So that's a very honest answer.

B. PETTEN:

I appreciate that.

On that topic, I have a child care operator in my district that offers a level

of junior kindergarten. It's in a private setting, but the problem is she has to

maintain – to get any subsidies, to be considered, she has to become like a

daycare where she actually offers somewhat of a curriculum. It's something that

was kicked around. They came to me and everything happened of course,

COVID-related – the election was actually what happened and everything was put

on the back burner.

If we're going to proceed with junior kindergarten, would groups like that be

considered in the full model of providing junior kindergarten? Because it

doesn't always have to be in the school. This person is operating with qualified

– just as you would with a daycare operator, you would have certain

requirements. These people are more than qualified to do the job, but under our

program, they struggle to survive because they have to operate as a daycare in

order to – they have to offer a lesser service to get a subsidy, to get help, if

you know what I'm trying to say. She has a big building up there, but she's

struggling.

Would groups like that be considered? It's more than her, too. Would groups like

that be considered a junior kindergarten program? Do you anticipate that? Or

would it all be school-based, is what I'm asking.

T. OSBORNE:

I'd like to learn more about this particular operator. Mary may know the

information. Again, without putting the cart before the horse –

B. PETTEN:

Fair enough.

T. OSBORNE:

– because we're in discussion with the federal government, I think the initial

concept of this would've been school-based. So whether or not there's room to

accommodate that sort of operation, I'm not sure, but, again, I'd want to learn

some more about it.

I think Eldred might have more to say on junior kindergarten as well. I know

that it's a part of the Education Action

Plan . While he's not privy to the discussions that I've had with Minister

Hussen, I know he's done a considerable amount of work on it.

E. BARNES:

Yes, it is Recommendation 65 of the

Education Action Plan . It called for a foundational document and a phase-in

of junior kindergarten. In responding to that, of course, we went through a

series of public consultations and research and so on. There has been a lot of

foundational work done and a look at where it has been implemented in Ontario,

Northwest Territories and, most recently, in Nova Scotia.

We have some models that have been mapped and some costing that has been done,

but I think the minister has done an excellent job in saying at this juncture I

think it's very important that we see where the federal negotiations take us by

way of the cost of the initial implementation, shall we say, over a three- to

five-year period. After that, the cost is not as great, but where there is

JLP

involved and so on, there's a need to see what can come from federal funding.

B. PETTEN:

I have a quick one out before my six seconds goes – I need more than that. Have

the Chromebooks been delivered yet? Have they all been delivered to their

schools yet, the Chromebooks?

T. OSBORNE:

Chromebook, identified the need for a Chromebook, has received one. The vast

majority of them have arrived and are either configured and delivered or in the

process of being configured. I think we were wai