LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 10 May, 1985. Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Pet itions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . Minis terial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the galle ry. We have 35 students of Grades 3 to 6 standing from the Agassiz Drive Elementary School. They are under the direction of Mrs.

Johnson and the school Is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTIONS Limeatone Generating Station - Northern Development Agreement boundaries MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

My question is for the Acting Minister of Energy: I'm repeat ing a question that I had asked at least a couple of weeks ago as to why the line for the Northern Hiring Preference Agreement In the Limestone development Is different from the line that defines the area eligible for assistance under the Northern Devel opment Agreement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do have that response that I took as notice for the Minister of Energy and Mine s.

The que stion as to why· the Northern Preference Clause and the boundaries for the Northern Preference for Limestone Deve lopment are different from those that are contained in the Northern Development Agreement Is that Northern Manitoba is defined in accordance with the boundary set out in the Department of Northern Affairs for the Northern Development Agreement. The Northern Development Agreement follows the boundaries that have been established by the Provincial Department of Northern Affairs.

The Nelson-Burnt wood Collective Agreement which governs Northern Preference with respect to the Limestone Project was originally negotia ted in 1972. lt sets out Northern Manitoba boundaries which are slightly different from the Department of Northern Affairs boundary. The reason for the difference is that the Nelson-Bu rntwood Collective Agreement was negotiated In 1972, and that preceded the establishment of the Department of Northern Affairs and the boundary established at that time. The Collective Agreement Boundary was established along the boundaries of the then existing census division.

I should also note that the provisions of the colle ctive agreement are determined by collect ive bargaining and negotiations between the Hydro Project's Management Association and the Allied Hydro Council. The Government of Manitoba is not direct party to those arrangements. If the two parties decided to amend the boundary to bring it Into line to the Northern Affairs boundary, you might have a tidier situation. However, the collective agreement boundary is one that the two parties have used for a number of years and they might not wish to change it. DOCUMENT, TABLING OF HON. E.

KOSTRYA: Also, while I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker , the Member for Lakeside had asked for a copy of that collective agreement. I'm pleased to table a copy at this time. ORAL QUESTIONS cont'd Limestone Generating Station - Northern Development Agreement boundaries MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Yes , I wonder If the Minister could indicate whether or not the government, through Manitoba Hydro, as one of the partners to the Nelson­ Burntwood Collective Agreement has suggested that the boundaries be changed to coincide with the Northern Development Agreement boundaries. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Speaker, I don't believe there has been any direction given to Manitoba Hydro through the Hydro Project's Management Association to alter the boundaries as defined in the collective agreement. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that there are a considerable number of Indian bands who are cut out of the opportunity for preferential hiring as a result of that different boundary, I think there's probably in the range of 16 or 17 bands that are denied the opportunity for access to employment unde r that pref erential hiring situation, is the government not interested In changing the boundaries so that they would be Included? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In fact, there are more than that number of bands that are excluded from the Northern Preference Clause 1814

Frkley, 10 lley, 1885 with respect to Limestone, because there are a number of additiona l bands that even If one was to adopt the Northern Affairs boundary which goes somewhat farther south than the boundaries set up under the Nelson­ Burntwood Collective Agreement, there still are a number of other bands, a number of other reserves that are further south of that, so, indeed, there are more than the 16 that the member mentions that are being excluded.

There's additional, I don't know how many, but a considerable number of other bands that are excluded because of where the boundary for the Northern Deve lopment Agreement Is set. We have not at this time looked at any altera tion to the boundary. I can take that matter up with the Minister of Energy when he returns to see if Manitoba Hydro and the other interested parties might be willing to review that matter. Highway 224 - dusty conditions MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Honourable Minister of Highways.

About two weeks ago, I had occ asion to travel on Highway 224 up through the Peguis Indian Reserve, and I'm wondering whether or not the Minister has been made aware of concerns about the condition of that road? There's a great deal of dust problems and I'm wondering whether or not the department intends to undertake reg ular grading and dust control measures on that highway? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to see the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has a highway map on his desk, so he can see where he's going. Mr.

Speaker , if the member would look at the Highways Program for the coming year, he would see that there is a major contract on 224 for asphalt surface treatment on that road through the reserve and that work will be beginning very soon. lt was obviously di fficult - with regard to the negotiations, we had to locate the road and since there was an impasse to have the road turned over through the reserve to the band and have a new loca tion for the road, since we had difficulties in those negotiations, we've decided to upgrade the road In its present location, provide another asphalt surface treat ment over it and that will be done this summer.

Treasury Bench, members of - absent from House MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakesl de. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Government House Leader. Where Is his Treasury Bench, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker, it does make it a little difficult for the opposition to try and seek the information that we are expected to seek. I would invite the Government House Leader to give us some indic ation as to where the members of the Trea sury Bench are, and when we can expect them back. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I believe that more than half the Treasury Bench is here now. I expect , Mr. Speaker, that the Opposition Whip has been advised by the Government Whip as to the government business, upon which those Treasury Bench members who are absent, are away. If that advice has not been provided, it will be provided in the usual form and the acc ounting for the government business that has unfortunately drawn some Ministers away from the House will be provided In the usual way. Manitoba Hog Stabilization Program - discontinuance of by Prov. Gov't MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speak er, I have a question for either the Acting Premier or Acting Min ister of Agriculture, dealing with the Western Premiers' Conference next week, of which the First Minister is quoted as saying that the Federal Government do not have a policy on their hog program and that they are concerned about the transferring of responsibilities to provinces.

In view of the fact that the Federal Government is now offe ring a Tripartite Stabilization Program for the hog Ind ustry, is it the Intention of the Provincial Government to do away with the provincial program, which is one of the stipulations if, In fact, the Federal Government is to move in this? Are they prepared to do away with the provincial hog stabilization to join the federal one? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier will be holding a media conference this afternoon, where he'll be outlining the general approach to the western Premiers' meeti ng, and I'm sure this issue along with others, will be looked at in looking out for the best interests of Manitoba farmers, but looking also for a fair arrangement with the Federal Government respecting what the respective jurisd ictional responsibilties are. MR. J. DOWNEY: I just heard the acting Premier say that this afternoon the public of Manitoba, through the media, were going to be told what initia tives were going to be put forward at a meeting next week.

Why, Mr. Speaker, was the First Minister not In this Chamber this morning, telling us, so that we could respond to what he was going to say at the Western Premiers' Conference and an opportunity to question him? Where is the First Minister and why doesn't he have the interna l fortitude to come in this Assembly and face the opposition? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the proposals that we will be putting forward will be right in line with what we've being saying for months and years on the agricultu ral industry. Canterra and Churchill Dev. Board meeting- outlining of plans for Churchill MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. 1815

Friday, 10 lley, 1985 MA. F. JOHNSTON: My question, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Business Dev elopment. On May 7th, he said in Hansard, regard ing Churchill, "I would indicate, as well, Mr. Speaker, that there was some concern expressed by the local people that they had not in fact been aware of any announc ements until the y, themselves, read it in the paper ." And he adds, "I know that that doesn't reflect a desire on the part of Can terra to co-opera te." Mr.

Speaker, I've asked the Minister, was he not informed of a meeting that Canterra had in late February with the Chamber of Commerce Churchill Dev elopment Board outlining all of their plans for Churchill? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Deve lopment. HON. J. STOAIE: No, Mr. Speaker, I was not aware. I was simply reporting what was reported by the department to myself through an individual in Churchill who has been active in the Chamber of Commerce and the Churchill Development Corporation. If he was in error, I apologize for that.

What I had said in my statement that the member is refe rring to was that I don't believe that Canterra intentionally disregarded the commun ity. I believe that because of the length of time that this entire project has been on the books, there has been some lack of communi cation, certainly between Churchill and the department and inevita bly, I suppo se, between int erested parties in Churchill and the particular deve lopers of the project. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, is it going to be the cont inuin g habit of the Mini ster to be critical of companies that are working in this province, hiring people in this province and investing in this province without checking to see if his Information is correct ? HON. J. STOAIE: Mr. Speaker , it was not my Intention to be critical.

I have sent a letter to the company Indicating that the Department of Business Development Is anxious and eager to work in a co-operative way with Canterra, with the investors to make sure that whatever supplies, services that can be provided through busine sses in Churchill, through the Community of Chur chill and other northern suppliers and entrepreneurs, we would be more than willing to assist.

I had Indicated earlier that my statement was simply a ref lection of the fact that some people in Churchill, some businessmen in Churchill were not aware of the pending announ cement until they had received press reports of it. That's a reflect ion, I suppose, on a lack of communication and I lay no blame for that. lt's simply a matter of fact and it happens in many instances, and I was certainly not being critical of the company. Order for Return No. 12 MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister on another subject .

I have been patiently waiting for an Order for Return No. 12, since June of 1982, an Order for Return that was accepted by the government and I've had many excuses why we haven't received it; but I'm wondering if the Minister, after close to three years, is ready to give me the Order for Return No. 12, now MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Business Dev elopment. HON. J. STOAIE: Mr. Speaker , obviously I was not the Minister of Economic Dev elopment and Tourism at the time. I am aware of the request that the member made. I think an explanation has been given to him on many occasions.

The member was offered an opportunity to review the list of pe ople who received assistance under the Manitoba Interest Rate Relief Program, a program that assisted some 601 businesses save 2,000 jobs. Mr. Speaker, I can understand the member's interest in the Int erest Rate Relief Program. I think the information that was given to him was that, while we were prepared to share that information on an Individual basis with the member, we did not feel that it was In the best interests of the individual companies, Individ uals who had received support, that that information be made available.

There is no intention to be secretive. I offer again the member an opportunity to review the list with me and question me individually on those particular applications. I see no need, however, to embarrass or jeopardize the individuals and the companies that rec eived assistance, for the member's gratification. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, iast night in Estimates and I might say, previous ly, one of the Ministers - I'm not sure which Minister it was, of Business Deve lopment or Economic Development, that made the statement when I asked before, said, possibly after the program has finished and we'd able to see the results and it might not be embarrassing to some of the people involved, the order would be released .

Last night In Estimates, the Minister stated that 98 percent of the people involved In the program were success ful, and if he's willing to make that state ment, I'm now willing to ask him what Is he afraid of, what is he hiding if it's such a successful program and why can't he release the information? HON. J. STOAIE: Mr.

Speaker , for the record, I did not say In committee last night that 98 percent of the business es that . . . the figure, I believe, actually quoted was 92 perce nt, a phenomenal reco rd, when you consider that those companies who solicited support through this program were already in jeopardy and I think a testimony to the success of the program. Mr. Speaker, there are two Issues involved In my initial comments. One is that there are still individuals who are receiving support under the program and will be for possibly another year; I'm not sure how long.

The program, as the member indicated, has concluded, but there are payments proceeding after and will be proceeding for another few months. The second issue is confidenti ality. I don't know what purpose it serves to have individuals who may be 1816

em barrassed , whose businesses may be jeopardized by the release of that kind of Information. I don't know what purpose it serves. I've offered the member an opportunity to meet with me, to discuss on an individual basis, if he likes, that information.

I should Indicate to the member as well that when the decision was inHially made and the decision not to release the Information was conveyed to the mem ber, that there was a legal opinion - at least, an Informal legal opinion - that the release of the Information could in fact jeopardize the businesses and In fact perhaps be challenged on, I believe, a civil basis, if it jeopardized or created problems for the business people. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker , the member should check the legal opinion of legislative counsel at the time which was presented to the Attorney-G eneral at the time who said that government would not be liable. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister if I could have an Order for Return that requested the number of people or companies involved to June'82 - and I'm not asking for any more - that's my Order for Return, and June'82. There may be people In the program since that time, but the ones up to June'82 are no longer in the program.

They're obviously 92 percent successfu l; they are now paying back money through the Manitoba Development Corporation. As the program says, their business is on their feet and I ask the Minis ter, is he now going against all the freedom of Information philosophy and jargon that this government gives and will he not give me that Order for Return? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is repetitive and argumentative. Oral Questions. Unemployment - increase in MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minis ter of Employment Services with respect to the unem ployment statistics that were released this morning. They indicate that actual unemployment in Manitoba in April of 1985 Is 46,000 persons, up 3,000 persons from April of'84. The actual unem ployment rate has Increased .5 percent from April of'84 whilst the national rate shows a reduction in unem ployment rate over the last year and the number of unem ployed persons down. My question talhe Minis ter is this, Mr. Speaker.

What are the reasons why Manitoba's rate in the actual number of unem ployed persons is going up in Manitoba while the national trend is down; less unem ployed and a lower national rate. Why are we going against the trend? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Employment Services. Order please. HON. L. EVANS: Well, I don't know whether we're reading the same tables as the honourable member and I didn't hear all of the member's question because of the some jabbering across the way as well. Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to note that Manitoba continues to have among the lowest unempl oyment rates of any of the Canadian provinces and our unemp loyment rate Is down. The seasonally adjusted unem ployment rate declined from 9 percent last month to 8. 7 percent this month. So, it's going In the right direction and I observed that we continue to be well below the national average. We're two full percentage points below the national average, so I would say that in general we are not going against the national trend, Mr. Speak er. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker , my question to the Minister Is, and I'm reading from the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics Report issued by his department. What are the reasons why the Manitoba actual unemployment rate has increased from 8.5 percent in April of 1984 to 9 percent in April of 1985, whils t the Canada rate, the national rate has decreased from 12.1 percent in April of'84 to 11.5 percent In April of'85? What are the reasons why Manitoba Is going against the national trend? Why are we going up in Manitoba while Canada's national rate is going down? HON. L. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, as we observed last month, the honourable member chooses to use actual instead of seasonally adjusted. I suppose he'd use seasonally adjusted If it portrayed a different story. Mr. Speaker, what we have observed is that the Ontario economy which Is the dominant portion, the largest portion of the Canadian economy, the Ontario economy has done very well thanks to certain federal industrial policies and the automobile Industry, in particular, has done very well. I would observe that this is maybe one reason why the figures read as they do. As I said, Mr.

Speak er , in looking at the actual, we note that our unempl oyment rate is below 10 percent. If you want to talk about the actual, it's below 10 percent. lt declined to 9 percent in April and it is lower than the March figure of 10.1. I continue to be concerned, Mr. Speak er, about the weakening situation In the public adminis tration sector , because the figures show us some weakness there and we still have some concerns as to exactly what is the cause of that particular weakening. Having said that I repeat, Mr. Speaker, we are not going against the national trend.

In fact, as I said, there has been an improvement and it is in keeping with the Canadian pattern. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , if the Minister wishes me to use the seasonally adj•sted rates, I will. Can the Minis ter explained why the seasonably adjusted rate has gone up from 8 percent in April of 1984 to 8.7 percent in April of 1985, whilst the seaso nally adjusted rate nationally has gone down from 11.4 percent in April of 1984 to 10.9 percent in Canada?

If he prefers to deal with the seasonally adjusted rates, why is Manitoba on the basis of the seasonally adjusted rates going up, while the national rate is going down? What are the reaso ns for Manitoba going against this national trend? HON. L. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member expects me to rub the crystal ball and come up with all the answers to these figures. 1817

Friday, 10 May, 1115 SOME HONOURA BLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L. EVANS: We ll, I can only say, Mr. Speaker, that the member reads these figures and it is regret table, but as I said, we have to recognize that we live in a country with different reg ions, and as I said before, the Ontario economy is particularly strong and it has a great bearing on what happens to the national trend. Generally speaking, we continue to look favourable on the Canadian scene. We still are among the lowest unemployment rates, including adults as well as young people.

But as I said last month and I say it again this month, we'd like a little help from the Federal Government and maybe we can have a better situation than we have. If the member wants to talk about going against the national trend, and so on, he can look at some other provinces. He can look at Alberta. Over the last year or so, Alberta's situation has deteriorated very seriously because of the fall-off of the oil and gas industries. I'm talking about a pattern of the last year and a half or two. Churchill rail line - lightweight car MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. I'd like to ask what progress has been made, if any, in regard to the development of a lightweight rail car for the Churchill line to the Port of Churchill? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I'm not sure that is within the Mi nister's sphere of competence. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question? MR. S. ASHTON: Mr.

Speake r, on the point of order, I understand that the province is involved with the development of such a rail car and I'm asking the Ministe r respon sible for Highways and Transportation who has been involved with that, for a progress report on what has been happening with the development of that lightweight rail car. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Ye s, Mr. Speak er, that Is correct. Under the Churchill sub-agreement the province is funding jointly with the Federal Government, the development of the new lightweight rail car.

I am pleased to report that today, as a matter of fact, the CN is giving a technical briefing to the agricultural journal media, and others with regard to the progress of the lightweight rail car. Certainly the car is moving with regard to its construct ion, the prototype. lt will be actually completed and unveiled officially about mid-June, Mr. Speaker , and at that time lt will be ready for testing. The initial indications are that it's on schedule, Mr. Speaker, and we'r e pleased to see that it is moving.

With regard to the jobs that are going to be involved there, we have allocated $38 million under the sub­ agreements for the development of this lightweight rail car, as well as for the re habilitation of boxcars, to ensure adequate rolling stock for a 750,000 tonne season at Churchill. All we need now of course, Mr. Speaker , is the Minister respon sible for the Wheat Board· to exercise his respo nsibilities and ensure that. MR. S. ASHTON: Mr. Speaker , the Minister made reference to the Federal Minister respo nsible for the Wheat Board.

I assume he's referring to the concerns expressed earlier in this House about the lack of a commitment for shipping through the Port of Churchill. I'd like to ask the Minister what he has done to impress upon the Federal Government our concern about this matter , and what response he has received from the Federal Government? Basically, is the Federal Government going to guarantee shipping through the Port of Churchill? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Speaker, as a result of the announcement that came from the Wheat Board, I did send a telex to the Minister, Charlle Mayer, expressing our concern about the fact that he had not taken action to ensure an adequate shipping season through the Port. I have not received a reply to that telex, Mr. Speaker. In addition to that, I have written and asked the Chief Commissioner , Ed JarVis of the Wheat Board, to meet with him to discuss the shipping season at Churchill. A MEMBER: Get the name right. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Esmond Jarvis . . . and I did not receive a reply from Mr. Jarvis at this point.

As well I'm phoning to arrange such a meet ing at the present time to discuss the shipping sea son and to impress on him the need to at least dispute the cost advantages that are there for the shippers in the Churchill catchment area and for using Churchill. If they can't dispute that, Mr. Speak er, I think lt's incumbent upon the Federal Minister to take action to ensure that there is at least a 750,000 tonne season to the Port of Churchill each year. There is absolutely no reason they have not disputed those costs and we will call on the Manitoba Minister, Mr.

Speaker , who has a golden opportunity to upset the traditional power brokers with regard to sitting and curtailing the development of Churchill. He has a golden opportunity. He should take action at this time to do it. Ontario Hydro strike MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour concerning the decision of Manitoba Hydro to sell power to Ontario Hydro, at a time when there are 15,0 00 Ontario Hydro workers on strike. Mr.

Speaker, given the fact that Paul Moist, who is the Canadian Union of Public Employees' business agent, has raised the issue of the NDP government 1818

acting as strikebreakers with his national head quarters, my question to the Minister Is, has CUPE registered a complaint with the Minister of Labour or his colleague, the Minister of Cultural Affairs, who was a CUPE emplo yee, about this government decision? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, given that the Manitoba Federation of Labour President, John Pullen, said that he wasn't happy about the decision, and " ... they are In effect doing somet hing that could be called strikebr eaking ... "has the MF L registered a complaint? HON. A.

MACKLING: Not that I am personally aware of, Mr. Speaker. I would like to indi cate that certai nly we appreciate the concerns of organizated labour in connection with the sale of power when other workers are on strike. However, the questions were asked yesterday in the House in res pect to this matter and those questions are correct. There are ongoing contractual arrangements between the hydro systems and therefore the obligation is that under those contracts, when they seek power, we deliver.

We 've had those contracts for some time and I don't believe that the honouring of those contracts can be construed as strikebreaking. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, given that the Minister took some special glee in cutting up his Eaton's card and may have taken some satisfaction in sciss oring an Air Canada Enroute card, is he giving consideration to scissoring his NDP membership card? Wife Abuse Program - advertising of MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday I took a question as notice about the placement of ads in the May issue of Reade r's Digest. lt was what the cost was and the rationale. We said yesterday it was to target the group that we wanted to read the ads. In fact , they were placed only in the Manitoba issue. The total cost was $6, 145.00. lt's estimated that 75,000 households are reached In this way which would rea ch, therefore, a minimum of 75,000 people and that works out at a cost of less than 8.2 cents per household. Unemployment - increase in MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know whether I'm supposed to apol ogize to the Minister of Employment Services for read ing the statistics and asking him questions in view of his answer. He referred to other provincial trends. The statistics on other provinces indicate that only two other provinces have increased their unemp loyment rate since April of'84, and those are Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Mr.

Speaker, my question to him is: If he can't explain the general trend in total unemp loyment - Manitoba going up and Canada going down - could he, In the crucial area of youth unemployment, explain why the actual unemployment rate in Manitoba from April'84 of 15.2 has increased by .6 percent to 15.8 in April of'85, whilst the Canada youth unemployment rate In April of'84 of 19.7 has decreased 1.4 points to 18.3; why in this particular area of unemployment, Manitoba's rate going up and Canada's national average going down considerably? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Employment Services. HON. L EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I refer to other provinces. I said over the last year -and-a-half to two yea rs, Alberta's situation deteriorated markedly . it used to be the lowest , it was the lowest of any of the provinces and now it's considerably worse. lt's well above the Manitoba average. Mr. Speaker, I indicated that the national average is affected ess entially by the largest province, but I want to remind the honourable member that this government has taken a very positive attitude, positive policies to job creation. We're doing our damndest. This summer alone we're spending . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L. EVANS: This summer alone we're spending more money than ever before on job creati on. In the meantime, the Federal Employment Department has cut $2 million out of job creation for young people; $2 million less ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L. EVANS: . . . this year and than last year for young people. Mr. Wilson, since he brought down his Budget last Novem ber, we've documented a cut of 6,000 jobs in Manitoba. Go and ask the people of Beausejour, go and ask the people of Glmli or Churchill where are their jobs. Go and ask them.

I would like to also ask him the question after Mr. Wilson brings down his next Budget as to what's going to happen to loss of jobs in this province. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, news reports this week indi cated there are more federal civil servants working in Manitoba now than when the present Federal Government took over . Could the Minister of Employment Services indicate why Manitoba, since 1819

Friday, 10 May, 1885 December of 1984, has been for two months last in job creation and 9th and 8th In job creation compared to the rest of the country ? Can he confirm that obviously, in view of the Conference Board's statistics, that Manitoba's job creation record will be the worst in Canada of all provinces? Will he at least acknowledge that this Provincial Government 's policies of Imposing a payroll tax, of their labour legislation, and of their whole anti-business attitude are falling the young people and the workers of this province? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, if he wants to talk about employment creation record, he better take a hard look at what happened In the four years that he was a member of the Tre asury Bench. Manitoba was 10 out of 10. We were at the bottom of the heap and the figures are there, Mr. Speaker . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L. EVANS: . . . and I invite my honourable friend to investigate; 10 out of 10 during the Lyon Conservative administration. Mr. Speak er, if you look at the breakdown by industry of job cre ation, you'll see the problem Is in the public administration sector .

We know that the Civil Service level of Manitoba has not diminished. it's fairly stable. We know from comparing with the municipal governments that their level is constan t. I say, Mr. Speaker, this leads us to one conclusion, that it's in the federal area. Those figures that were referred to by the honourable member , I just don't acce pt. I want to see the number of people that are employed on a net basis In the Federal Government today compared with before. We know darn well from very concrete examples, ·I say go back to Beausejour and talk to the people there. That's one specific example. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker. obviously the Minister does not want to account for the fact that Manitoba Is going against the national trend and Ignores the three­ fold increase in the number of persons on social assistance. Order for Return, tabling of - re government advertising MR. G. MERCIER: I have a final question to the Government House Leader, Mr. Speaker. About four or five weeks ago In a response to a question, he said that a response to my Order for Return outlining the advertising expenses of this government would be tabled in the House within two weeks.

Would he undertake now In this House to confirm that he will table that information In the House prior to the next election, so that the people of Manitoba can see how much money has been wasted by this government on adver tising? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTEn: Mr. Speak er, I reject the final premise of the member's question.

I will certainly make the commitment to see that order Is tabled to show not only the members opposite, but the people of Manitoba, how wisely this government has used the dollars the taxpayers have provided to Inform the people of Manitoba about Its programs and everything else that advertising Is used for. Mr. Speaker, more directly to the member's question.

I regret that having seen a first draft of the order, which I thought was in its final stages of preparation, that several questions were asked about the Information and to provide full details and make sure the Information was accurate, it Is being reviewed. I had hoped we would have it a couple of weeks ago. I regret that it Is not yet available. I hope to have it In another week or so and that would be my intention. Not only will it be tabled before the election, I would certainly hope it'll be tabled within the next couple of weeks, certainly before May 23. MR.

SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expir ed. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before Orders of the Day, might I direct the attention of members to the gallery where there are 10 students of Grade 11 standing from the Glmll Composite High School under the direction of Mr. Melnychuk. The school Is In the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Housing. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTEn: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker , would you please call the bills standing on the Order Paper as adjourned debates in the order in which they appear on the paper. ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READINGS MR. SPEAKER: Order please. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Health, Bill No. 2 SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Pemblna. MR. H. ENNS: Stand, please. MR. SPEAKER: Stand. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Community Services, Bill No. 12 -the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Stand please. MR. SPEAKER: Stand. 1820

Fridaf, 10 May, 1885 BILL NO. 17 - THE TRANSBOUNDAR Y POLLUTION RECIPROCAL ACCESS ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Ho nourable Att orney-General, Bill No. 17 - the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I've now had an opportunity to review the material which the Attorney­ General was kind enough to provide me with and we're prepared to send this bill on to Committee for review in detail there. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Before I move the motion for Supply, I wish to advise the House that I propose certain changes in the order in which departments will be considered In Supply, Sir. We had indicated at one point the Department of Environment would be considered in the Committee. Sir, to accommodate the Minister of Agriculture's attendance at the Wes tern Premiers' Conference next week, I have asked and received agreement from the Opposition House Leader that we would commence the Estimates of the Department of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health immediately following completion of the Estimates of the Minister of Finance.

A MEMBER: In the Chamber? HON. A. ANSTETT: Ye s, In the House. Mr. Speaker, I have also been advised and wish to advise the House, the next departments following Business Development and Tourism in the Committee Room will be Northern Affairs, followed by Co-operative Development, followed by Government Services. Mr. Speaker, it Is our expectation that the Estimates of the Minister of Finance will be completed some time before Tuesday morning at 10.

That being the case, I would like to annou nce, Sir, that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts will meet Tuesday morning at 10 in Room 255 and, if necess ary, Thursday morning next week, Sir, that would be the 14th and 16th of May respectively to consider and report on the Public Accounts of the Province of Manitoba for the fiscal year'83-84, and the Provincial Auditor's Report for the same year. I believe as well that to expedite the consideration of the Estimates of the two departments under consideration today, it may be desirable to go beyond our normal hour of adjournment at 12:30.

I would therefore ask, Sir, If I could have leave of the House to dispense with Private Members' Hour today so that the committee can sit, whatever time is required in the committees, past 12:30 today. MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? Leave has been granted. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speak er, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Labour, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION preaented and car ried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East In the Chair for the Department of Finance, and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Busin ess Development and Tourism. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: Committee, please come to order. We are now considering Item No. 3.(aX1) Tourism, Travel Manitoba, Salaries; 3.(aX2) Other Expenditures; 3.(aX3) Grant Assistance - the Member for Sturgeon Creek.

MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I've said this before and it was the same during our time that the Tourism Department always seems to get away with one line In the Estimates. Actually, the Tourism Department breaks down Into several different departments - Marketing; to mention another one, Development. I wonder if the Mini ster could outline the different divisions in the Tourism Department for us so that we could ask questions on each department. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minis ter. HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr.

Chairperson, there are essentially four other parts to the department; the first one being Marketing; the second being Travel Information and Industry Relations; the third being Tourism Development; the fourth Administration and Planning. There are two other areas, Debt Servicing and Grants that are budgeted under this particular appropriation. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the 1985-86 marketing plan - the one that has the questionnaire where the Minister was interviewed by his staff. it's a fairly elabor ate document.

Is this document put together by the department for the use of the department, or is it put together to be given to the tourism Industry so that the industry knows the plan of the Marketing Department? How wide is the distribution of this book? HON. J. STORIE: This Is the first time, I believe, that the department has published the plan in this kind of a format and distributed it very widely. In fact, I have sent copies of this to Regional Development Corporation, the Tourism Industry Associati ons, to reeves - as broadly, ess entiall y, as I can. In essence, 1821

Friday, 10 May. 1985 it's purpose Is two-fold: (1) to Inform those who are Interested in the industry of our plan, our strategy and our development plans, and

(2) I believe it's a useful refe rence point for investors, for those involved in the Industry to familiarize themselves with the facts and figures as they break down In terms of Manitoba Tourism. I think the comments that we've heard with respect to this document have been extremely positive and I think, In essence, the material that's presented is that which has been requested by, or was seen as useful by the Industry. So the whole project was done, in essence, In co­ operat ion with industry offic ials and Industry groups and I think, at least hopefully, we'll meet some of their needs. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, what is the area - I'll call it the area - in the United States that you're directing your marketing to or your advertising to? HON. J. STORIE: I suppose that what we call our prime market areas In the United States, at least, would be - I could refer the member to Page 11 where it outlines it In some detail of where our current tourism market is coming from. Essentially , we have used that Information to develop our strategy for marketing 1985- 86. We're talking about North Dakota, Minnesot a, and Northern Ontario, to some extent; to a lesser extent, some of the mldwest ern states.

In esse nce, that's where most of the effort will be, In effect , directly south of us. MR. F. JOHNSTON: In that regard, Mr. Chairman, it says when do they come, it tells you; it says why do they come, and it also gives you a

summary; but it doesn't really outline the strategy. The Minister says they are target ing to these areas or using this for the strategy. I asked the Minister, where are your target areas going to be and what is your budget for advert ising in the states close to us, to attract people to come to Manitoba? HON. J. STORIE: I suppose, first of all, once we understand where the people are coming from currently; and No. 2, why they're coming, what Is attracting them, obviously that forms a pretty powerful base of Information.

Without knowing where they're coming and why they're coming, you can't do planning, but In essence, I think, and I repeat myself, that we plan from that basis. Again, beginning on Page 18 through Page 23, it talks about our marketing strategy and how we've broken down our market into different categories of different emphasis. Our primary markets - Minnesota, I suppose, is one of our target areas where we believe we can incre ase substantially the number of visitations.

North Dakota again, what we've tried to do is set out objectives and say here's where we're at in those particular market areas, here's where we would like to be, here's how we intend to accomplish that. We have done that, again, as I mentioned yesterday by target ing our advertising by working In a co-operative way with Industry groups, entrepreneurs in the tourism Industry, so that forms certainly part of the strategy. The member may recall that toward the end of April we held what we called a Minneapolis blitz, where industry representatives, organizations, busine sses attended a trade show in Minneapoiis.

We went there to support individual lodge and outfitters who were taking

part in the Northwestern Sports Show, which is a major sports show in Mlnneapolis. At the same time, we made calls on various groups in the Minneapolls area, held a very successful Manitoba Festival to which some 250 tour operators, tour organizers, Industry spokesmen for the tri-state area attended. lt was very well received and certainly the feedback that I received from those Manltobans who participated with the Travel Manitoba staff have been nothing but positive. Not a very expensive venture really for Travel Manitoba, but had wide-ranging, I think, repercussions.

The media response In the area was quite good. I did a number of Intervie ws and I think overall successful and somet hing that's certainly worthwhile continuing. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I refer to the southern boundary survey put out by Mr. Bell, Strategic Plannin g and Development Branch of Busi ness Dev elopment and Tourism dated February, 1985, that has a survey of tourist traffic entering Manitoba via Highway 10 Boissevaln and No. 75 Emerson per month, and for the years'83 and'84, I also have one that's dated'82-83 that was put out February, 1984.

Since 1981, there has been a steady drop from the U.S. northwest and the U.S. E. N. central. This has been one of our best areas . for attract ing people from the United States. I'm aware that the traffic from the United States has been down stead ily for quite some time or has had minor drops, but there has been actually a continuing drop since 1981. . So that's why I ask the Minister what is his strategy In that area? I'm aware that the figures are available as you have them presented to you In many reports.

I'm aware that they come through regularly all the time and I'm aware that the department knows where the people are coming from, they do all the research and studies. What Is the strategy to increase the tourism from that area? HON. J. STORIE: In terms of the traffic count - I believe it's the traffic count that the member is refe rring to. I think that it's important to differentiate between same­ day traffic, which is people coming up and looking or shopping perhaps. Short duration trips have decreased, as the member Indicated, quite dramatically - about 12 percent.

But more significant to Manitoba Is the fact that the overnight traffic has Increased and I think that the term In the Industry is, you know, keep them an extra night and things will boom. So the ove rnight traffic has Incr eased . I should indicate that the traffic that comes from the midwestern States as well - I suppose there may be a trend away from personal vehicles and vehicle traffic, where there are charter flights in, there are bus tours in and so forth. To encourage that growth in traffic from the mldwester n, northern States.

We have inc reased our tourism advertising spending In the consumer market area. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister seems, as he did yesterday , to not concern himself with any 1822

reports that he doesn't like. He always has some major excuse as to why this Is happening and, let's say, I would suggest that I admire his positive attitude of trying to turn something bad into something good. But we have a situation where it's been dropping steadily and it's shown In his own reports that are presented by his department, and he seems to think that it's all right if the daily traffic goes down, and certainly it's good that the overnight traffic stays up, but the statistic shows that it has been going down steadily, as an average, since 1981.

Now the best thing I'v e heard Is that he Is increasing his advertising in that area. That's the strategy that he has said to us. How much Is he Increasing it? How many days will by spent down on weekends at the shopping centres? What particular advertising will be on television? What will be In the papers down there to encourage those people to come back to Manitoba? HON. J. STORIE: First, with respect to the question of looking at the world through rose-coloured glasses, I couldn't find any so I try and be objective.

I agree, I acknowledged the fact that the same-day traffic is down 12 percent and that Is obviously a concern. I think that, on the whole, the statistics are relatively positive. I've Ind icated that we have had an incr ease in visitors from the United States. We've seen a growth in overnight visitors, as I Indicated; we've seen a growth of, I would say, some 2 or 3 percent. In terms of overnight stay, as I've ind icated, it's the most significant. I'm not downplaying the fact that same day traffic is down.

I think that if you talk to the Hotel Association, you would find that they are extremely pleased with the fact that overnight traffic is up. In Manitoba we have probably one of the highest rates of occupancy in the countr y. Certainly the larger and better quality accommodation facilities have the best rate of occupancy, certainly in many parts of the country, occupancy rates that range from 69 percent in Winnipeg to 75 percent in rural Manitoba.

In terms of what we are doing, we are increasing the num ber of mall shows; we are increasing the generic advertising that we're doing in Northern States and Min nesota and the Midwest. We, as I indicated, have worked in a co-operative way to blitz that area at what we believe are opportun e moments. We have established and are continuing to build upon the co­ op advertising program which will, I believe, be an effective use of Tourism advertising dollars. We're also targeting our advertising to what we consider special!.4' markets and by doing that we can hit a few more areas and we believe be more effective.

We're also working on the possibility of expanding the tour packaging part of our industry and we believe it is possible to increase the volume of traffic from States such as Texas and Colorado, some of the more southerly States. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR.

W STEEN: I'd just like to ask the Minis ter, now that we as Canadians, in the relationship to tourism, enjoy the advantage of having a favourable dollar, what has the Minister's department been able to come up with in the way of figures to show that we are, as Manitobans, able to take advantage of this difference in the U.S.-Canadian dollar, particularly so in the last couple of years, that the difference has been broadened so greatly.

Are we enhancing our numbers of Americans coming up here that are taking advantage of it and are we as Manitobans taking advanta ge as tour operators and people that operate tour facilities, accommodations, etc., are they giving the Americans a fair rate of exchange and encouraging them to visit Canada and, in particular, Manitoba? HON. J. STORIE: I think the member has raised two very interesting points. Yes, we are marketing and I suppose. more aggressively marketing the fact that there is a very favourable exchange rate to be had on the part of American tourists.

Certainly I think it's been our experience that there has been relatively low awareness of that differential in the United States. Obviously, as you move farther away from the border, there is less awareness. We are now usin g the exchange rate in our advertising. Private entrepreneurs advertising in the States are also using that fact. That is certainly one of the reasons why we're predicting an increase in the traffic from the States. The second issue, I think, is probably just as important and that is the issue of fair exchange. We have opened an exchange service at the border.

We believe that providing fair exchanges is a responsibility. lt also makes good business sense. One of the thin gs that I've been telling industry officials, groups that I meet with in communities is that we can't leave it up to the government to make those decisions. Providing fair exchange is good business - not only providing fair exchange but offering incentives exchanges. I believe, and in my meetings, I heard ind ividuals decry the fact that businesses were, in effect, ripping off the tourists, taking one-time advantage and foregoing long-term possible gain.

I've asked the Chambers of Commerce, I've asked tourism groups to support me in my effort to make sure that fair exchange becomes a matter of course in all our transactions with tourists across Manitoba. I don't think you can downplay the fact that a service station in Morris or a service station in Roblin-Russell that doesn't give fair exchange does the province and the industry a tremendous disservice, so we're working for that. We're certainly working with ind ustry officials.

In fact, we've produced some audio-visual material dealing with the subject of fair exchange and how to promote it and what the advantages are of promoting that particular subject. MR. W. STEEN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, on that same subject. I don't expect that it's the government's responsibil ity to tell the private sector how they have to do things. lt's certainly the gover nment's responsibility to encourage the private sector how to take advantage of a dollar that is at such a vast difference.

I'm simply amazed at the imagination that is used and the willing ness to go after the Canadian tourists by the people in Grand Forks when they know that when you're buying American dollars, I guess nowadays you're paying about $1 .40 for them. lt's pretty expensive 1823

Friday, 10 MaJ, 1115 to cross the line and to visit North Dakota, but so many of their people will take fixtures such as room rates and offer them at Canadian dollars which really means that they're discounting their rooms by about 40 percent. In some cases, they will discount their meals to persons that have rooms who are staying at various places of lodging down there. They're really aggressive at the time when their backs are against the wall. The shoe is on the other foot now. Our people, Manltobans, able to - (Interjection) - Those glasses, Mr.

Minister, look like you must have borrowed them from Sharon Carstairs. HON. J. STORIE: The Elton John of Tourism. MR. W STEEN: They look like Sharon Carstairs' sunglasses left over from Beer and Skits from last weekend. But the Department of Tourism has got to do everyt hing in their power to encourage our Canadian people and Manitobans in particular - those are the ones that we're Interested in - to take advantage of the rate of exchange.

The Manitoba Hotel Association, in some sense, is a lobby force for hoteliers that operate beverage rooms and their first concern primarily is dealings with the Attorney-General on liquor regulations and liquor prices. The bulk of their members are interested in their beverage room sales and less emphasis in their lobbying. The Manitoba Hotel Association, I would think, is the second-best lobbying group in Manitoba, next to the Te achers' Association.

They lobby primarily - 90 percent of their time Is lobbying for liquor regulations to enhance their membership and a small percentage of their membership, although perhaps a larger than normal percentage when it comes to paying fees and dues, are the members such as the major hotels in Winnipeg that have to be encouraged to be offering weekend packages, and so on, to get the Americans from the northern States up here to take advantage of the Canadian dollar and the way that the Canadian dollar sits now. it's no great break for the American tourist to come to Winnipeg and pay $100 a night In Canadian funds, which ends up costing them $75 In U.S. funds, for a room up here when they can stay home and have a room in the Holiday Inn in Grand Forks or the Holiday Inn In Minne apolis for $40 or $45 In U.S. funds.

So our hotel rates are more than 25 percent higher than the hotel rates in the City of Minneapolls, so what we've got to do is encourage these major hotels to take advantage of weekend packages. They can get the big buck during the week from the businessman that is on the company expe nse allowance; the businessman from Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver that is staying at the major downtown hotels from Sunday night to Thursday. But those hotels are virtually vacant on the weekend unless a good marketing program is proceeded with.

The only people that we're going to get to go into those hotels on weekends in the winter months are our own Winnipeggers that want to take advantage of the pools and the other amenities that are offered In those facilities, or persons who are usually within driving range of the City of Winnipeg that want to come up and enjoy Winnipeg 's hospitality. I say to the Minister, he can talk to the Hotel Association until he's blue, but they're only going to pay so much attention to the room aspect and the meals aspect . Their major lobby is liquor regulations that are favourable to their own membership.

The Manitoba Restaurant Association appears to me to be more interested in luring American visitors up here than the Hotel Association appears to be.

Another issue that I would like to mention to the Minister is a forecast. it's called "Tourism Forecast, 1985," done by Bob Lockie, the Executive Vice­ President of the Winnipeg Convention and Visitors Bureau; and he goes on to mention that the tourism industry of Manitoba, in co-operation with the Provincial Government 's travel branches, just completed a hard­ hitting presentation called "Tourism is Big Busines s." He goes on to mention the numbers of persons, "Tourism officials state that tourism is now the third­ largest industry in the province directly employing over 28,000 persons, or one In every 13 jobs In Manitoba is directly related to the tourism Industry." And he mentions the high profile convention marketing which has reached now $37.8 million being spent by some 71 ,000 delegates, which is ·reflecting an increase of 3.5 percent over the last 10 years; percentage-wise not a large increase but fortunately it's an increase.

Because we have seen over the last 10 years in Manitoba a tourism deficit and In his projections here, he goes on to mention that convention business in Winnipeg during 1985 will not be as fortunate as preliminary forecasts prepared by the Winnipeg Convention and Busi ness Bureau which Indicates a dif ficult year ahead. He goes on to mention in his report that the tourism and convention people need to have more support in marketing of major convent ions to Winnipeg, both from across Canada and from the United States.

I know, from talking to people at the Convention Centre, that yes, we have had some major groups use that facility. The Royal Canadian legion when they had their anniversary convention here a couple of years ago; the Midwest Shrine Convention used the facility and these are convention groupings of approximately 4,000 to 5,000 people. When they hit Winnipeg and take over our Convention Centre, they leave a lot of dollars behind In the hotels, the restaurants and in the shops In the downtown area.

But the convention people feel that they need more assistance in going after these major conventions that Winnipeg should be getting in the future. The competition for convention business in Canada is growing now that Edmonton has a Convention Centre; Ottawa's got a Convention Centre; and it's no longer Winnipeg being one of the few cities In Canada that has a conven tion facility that can put 4,000 on the floor for a dinner , or better than 4,000 for a meeting.

I would ask the Minister if he or his department have been working closely in looking at this problem of keeping this Convention Centre - which cost the taxpayers of the city and Manitoba back in 1971 in the area of $25 million to $30 million to erect In the first place - keeping it busy, keeping it filled as much as we possibly can? HON. J. STORIE: I think the member has raised a number of extremely valuable points. I'd like to deal with them in sequence if I could. 1824

First with respect to the convention business. we have been very supportive. we have worked with Ind ustry organizations such as the Winnipeg Visitor and Convention Bureau to develop them and to develop their membership. I have no doubt that the Winnipeg Convention Centre would like to see more assistance. The question is, is it the role of - I mean we have certainly supporte<Mhe Convention Centre and continue to support the Convention Centre on an ongoing basis. I believe the province initially allocated some $7.5 million to the Convention Centre in 1971 or 1972 or whenever it was.

The province continues through support through block funding to assist with the operating deficit of that body and we're happy to do so. Because as you ind icated in your comments, it's a tremendously Important facility to the City of Winnipeg. Wha t Isn't so clear Is that busine sses in the community of Winnipeg and In the province generally appreciate how important it is. I believe that last year we had some 66,000 delegates brought to Winnipeg by the Convention Centre.

That's a phenomenal number of people. lt meant something In the neighbourhood of $38 million in travel expenditures coming to the Province of Manitoba. we have worked, and I believe that some Ind ividual businesses and certainly the convention and the Visitors Convention Bureau, have been working to improve the utili zation of that facility. In the first quarter of 1985, convention business Is up 58 percent. So we recognize that it's important and we're working as a department to do whatever we can to support it.

What I've been trying to say In discussions with Industry people and the business community generally, is that the Convention Centre makes good sense for all of us, and to the extent that we, collectively, can attract people to Winnipeg. it's good for the Junior's Restaurant and Eaton's and the hotels and everybody.

I don't know that it's strictly the government's responsibility to spend advertising dollars to attract visitor and convention busine ss, when the real benefactors are the businesses themselves and, of course, the province as a whole. we feel we're doing our share and we have I think been very successful in working with the Convention Bu reau to develop brochures and to assist them in those kinds of ventures. we believe that our efforts right now are probably best spent In developing within the Ind ustry the potential for Increased packaging, tour packaging, weekend packaging, and the kinds of comments the member made about what's going on In the States and Grand Forks and Fargo and so forth are apropos because they have been very aggressive In the way that they've approached it.

I und erstand that through the co-op advertising program, in association with the Manitoba Hotel Association and, I believe, 13 different enterprises, we have prepared a weekend marketing package that offers special rat�nd guaranteed exchange and some 30,000 brochures have been produced to market this particular package. That has all happened this year. we believe that we have to extend ourselves, the ind ustry has to extend themselves to create an Increased volume of traffic. We think we can do it, and certainly the 58 percent increase in the first quarter of 1985 is good news for the Convention Centre.

If I can stay with the Convention Centre one second furth er, as the member may know, the Winnip eg Convention Centre was developed in a very vlalonary way by the Provincial Government and the City of Winnipeg and we were one of the first convention centres and the only ones in Canada that went ahead without federal support.

I was In a meeting with Tom McMill an, the Federal Minister and Mayor Norrle and other indus try people some time ago when the Mayor brought home the point to the Federal Mini ster that, while the province and the City of Winnipeg have provided ongoing support to the Convention Centre, we have not had the kind of support that other convention centres, those competing with us have had; and we would certainly like to see some federal support In the upgrading that Is ongoing and new ventures that the Convention Centre Board deem to be appropriate and let's hope that there's some good news on that front.

I thought your remarks on the Manitoba Hotel Association and their particular interest, their particular members' interest in changes to The Liquor Act and The Liquor Control Act were also on the mark, to some extent. I think that's one of the problems that face the Indus try. On a larger basis, I suppose it's one of the problems that confront governments and that Is the issue of co-operation. lt Is, I think, shortsighted for any one group to pursue the interests, I suppose, of their members without regard to the longer range Implications for the Ind ustry as a whole.

I think that Manitoba hoteliers in general, their survival is tied in very much with a successful tourism industry, and while changes to The Liquor Control Act are obviously important to them and they have been very successful In their lobbying efforts, it is also true that to the extent that tourists come to Manitoba, the hotels flourish; and I see this as part of our role, to play the mediator and the conciliator, to help the ind ustry focus on the real goal of tourism and that's to bring more people in. We've worked on a number of fronts to do that. I' ve mentioned the co-op advertising and so forth.

I haven't mentioned the fact that we're reviewing the star rating. One of the things that we know about tourists in 1985 is that they expect quality accommodation. Tourists today are probably more fickle than they have ever been. They have a lot of disposable Income; they're prepared to spend it, but they're not prepared to spend it frivolously.

They want a quality product; they want quality service and that's something that the indus try has to come to grips with. we think that reviewing the star rating and working with Industry to establish new standards throughout the Ind ustry is something worthwhile and something that we should do. MR. W STEEN: Further to the Mini ster's most recent remarks, I have comments on two areas. Secondly, the Manitoba Hotel Association - I'v e been associated with that group for 10 years now, as the Mini ster knows, we have our annual dinner which Is always looked forward to by all members of the legislature.

Prior to that, my association was as a city councillor when they used to come before finance committee and object to a room tax being applied by the city. That was raised on two or three occasions during my five years while I was at the municipal level. The Hotel Association has a unique membership. They have the type of person that operates a small hotel In 1825

Frldq 10 11aJ, 1985 rural Manitoba who derives the bulk of his/her livelihood from the beverage room and the sale of alcoholic beverages. Then you have the type of hotel operation in the city which, again, is similar to the one in rural Manitoba where the main empha sis is on the beverage room, the lounge, etc., and they have so many persons that occupy rooms on monthly basis.

When we talk about the City of Winnipeg having for a convention 6,000 rooms or in that neighbourhood, I often wonder if are they counting these rooms that are being occ upied in these hotels on a monthly basis by regular customers that are really calling that their home. I've been told that the hotel industry has to keep a room or two, a small percentage, that would be there for the day-to­ day traffic.

Then, the thir d type of member of the Hotel Association are our major downtown hotels which are really interested in the convention business, the businessman-type business from Sunday night till Thursday and the wee kend packages that I made reference to earlier. The hotel operator In Flin Flon, the hotel operator in Belmont, Manitoba and the Winnipeg Inn all have the same voice at their meetings as members - they're all equal members. Therefore, the emphasis of the Hotel Association over the past 15 years has been primarily to get more liberal ized liquor regulations for their membership.

Over the last 15 years, not only have they been successful in doing away with the supper hour closing, the beverage rooms now can stay open till 1 o'clo ck instead of 11:30. They've added an hour and a half on at the end of the day. They can now open at 10:00 a.m. in the morning Instead of 11 :00. They've added an hour on at that end of the scale. They can have special permits on Sundays and they can do a number of things. So, the hotel Industry has made large gains over the last 15 years.

I'm convinced that they're more interested In lobbying for beverage room hours than they are for strong co-opera tion with the Minister's Department of Tourism in bringing in people to utilize rooms and rest aurant facilities. The Mini ster made reference to the Winnip eg Convention Centre and the fact that In a recent meeting with the Federal Minister, Tom McMillan, and the Mayor of the City, that Winnipeg's Convention Centre was one of - and likely the only convention centre not to receive federal funding. I recall at the time when it was to cost the city $7.5 million and the province $7.5 million.

When the Convention Centre eventually was completed, it was more like about $25 million. That's now about 13 or 14 years ago. What does the Minister think? How should the Federal Government participate in the ongoing losses of the Convention Centre or in the form of a grant because we missed out 14 years to refu rbish and upgrade the Convention Centre and make some of the necessary changes that Convention Centre Board members feel that are necessary just to upgrade it because it's been In service for some 14 years?

My question is how does the Minister feel that the Federal Government should apply itself with a facility that's -some 13 or 14 years old? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I think, obviously, there's no intention. I don't think it was suggested that the Federal Government be asked retroactively to support the Convention Centre. I think that the mayor made the point, and I concur, that we are In a position where we are competing now with faci lities who have had, in some cases, massive, tens of millions of dollars of support from the Federal Government.

As an aside, I do know that there are discussions going on at the current time with respect to an upgrading of the Convention Centre in which I expect there will be participation on the part of the Federal Government and the province through . A MEMBER: One-time grants. HON. J. STORIE: . . . Destination Manitoba funds which have been targeted. Whether those negotiations will be su ccessfully concluded, I guess, remains to be seen but it Is possible. Further to that, as you indicate, the Convention Centre is now some 10 years old, 11 years old.

I suspect that there are changes needed, upgrading that's required both to meet code requirements perhaps, but more importantly, to meet convent ion visitor requirements. When that happens and when the convention board determines what is necessary to keep apace of the development of facilities in other parts of the country and the world, then we will, I think, be looking to the Federal Government for some indic ation of support. I think that's where we have to go. We have a tremendous facility that Is an asset. Any role that the Federal Government can play In supporting us would be appreciated .

I think the most appropriate way would be in dealing with upgrading major expenditures that are In the offing perhaps. I should add with respect to the discussion we had earlier on hotels and their role, there are currently only about 3,000 four- or five-star · rooms available In Winnipeg. We have a Convention Centre that can require up to 6,000. I think that In terms of attract ing people, there has to be some assessment of the need for attractive acc ommodations that go along with the promotion of the Convention Centre. MR. W.

STEEN: Can he tell me from his staff as to how the Federal Government participated, for example, in the Convention Centres of Edmonton and Ottawa? Did they pay for half of the Initial costs of building them or a one-third or what? What are we looking at as Manitobans and Wlnnipeggers that we missed out on some 10 years ago or better? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I don't have the exact figures with me; certainly, they're available. 1 do know that the member has a copy of "Tourism Tomorrow" and within that document, there is a listing of the federal support that has been contrib uted to the Convention Centres across Canada, and significant only by Its absence, was Winnipeg. MR. W. STEEN: I'd ask the Minister if the City of Winnipeg or the Convention Centre have, In recent years, approached the Provincial Government regarding the province 's parking lot that is directly south of the Convention Centre?

Have there been any overtures to the Provincial Government to do someth ing with that property which would enhance the tourism convention business of Winnipeg and Manitoba? 1826

Frldaf, 10 llq 1115 HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, the department has been involved; I'm advised by staff that we actually gave them some assistance in conducting a feasi bility study to review the potential of that site and I do know that there had been discussions earlier with the Department of Government Services on that. I understand that there are no plans at this point to utilize any assistance that we might be able to offer with respect to the parking lot. MR.

W STEEN: The Tourism and Convention Bureau here is funded primarily from the municipal government, Indirectly from the Provincial Government, through the block funding that the province gives. They claim that their per capita funding Is far below what is given in the way of funding for cities such as Toronto, Hamilton - many other cities that Winnipeg Is competing against for convent ions.

Has this been brought to the Minister's atte ntion and if he believes the funding has been somewhat short and making it difficult for them, has he ever talked to the ongoing committee of councillors that meet with the Provincial Government about seeing If the city would generate or direct more of their dollars that they receive from the block funding towards supporting the Winnipeg Convention Bureau so that they can fill that building up more frequently than they have been - and obviously reduce the losses on that facility. HON. J.

STORIE: Ye s, we do provide support to the bureau. it is true that most of the support comes from the municipality and Indirectly, I suppose, we support them greater than simply we do through Business Dev elopment. I think it's true as well that most of the convention facilities throughout Canada are supported by the municipalities and not by either senior levels of government. I have had the opportunity to meet with representatives of the Convention and Visitors Bureau and we have discussed a number of ways of increasing the funding so that they can do their job.

I can only say that I'm willing to consider proposals and I think we have a very good relationship and I assume that this will be a matter that's discussed further over the coming months. MR. W. STEEN: A very short question to the Min ister . Does he feel or agree with me that the per capita funding that the · city gives the Convention Centre Bureau is greatly less than what Is done in other competing cities and should be enha nced? HON. J.

STORIE: I can't say thlit I have any in-depth knowledge of what is offered by other municipalities to the extent that the member Is saying, should the City of Winnipeg.give more money to the Visitors and Convention Bureau I can afford to be generous and say yes, because it aln't going to cost me anything.

I recognize that the City of Winnipeg also has their financial limits and I think that, while it would be nice for the City of Winnipeg to contribute more, I think it would also be In the interests of the industry and business community of Winnipeg generally to look at ways of providing support through their own resources because of the importance of the industry to them and to the province as a whole. So I don't think we should always encourage people to look to other levels of government to provide the support.

As I said, I'm certainly not opposed to doing that, but I would like to see us work, and I'm sure the city would like to see the bureau work In a co-operative way with levels of government and with indi vidual entrepreneurs, individual facilities to Increase their budget. MR. W. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm always glad to see rural Manitoba taxpayer dollars coming In to help the City of Winnipeg because In Manitoba, better than 70 cents on the dollar Is raised In Winnipeg In the way of taxes, but maybe the Minister can always keep In mind that If we get more convention people up here, they just might by chance end up In Flin Flon on a weekend fishing trip; and so he might see some of the dollars going back home. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I wanted to also add my voice In support of the Provincial Government providing strong support to the Winnipeg Convention Centre. I have been a booster of that facility, I guess, since about 1970 when it was being discussed prior to its construction. I also attended the 10th Anniversary Show which, In spite of the fact that it had a few minor failings, I thought it was a very, very fine show. I'm talking about the production number and the media and the cameras and the dancers, Don Harron and Mlckey Levine, etc.

I thought, in many ways, that is Winnipeg at its best, namely, that they can put on a first class show. I might say In passing that I was very disappointed with the guest speaker , who was the supposed highlight, some gentleman who flew in for the occasion and was given a tremen dous fanfare but didn't seem to leave a message of any kind to the people there.

But it was a good show and I think that it shows that Winnipeg and Manitoba can compete with anybody in that sort of area, so I'd simply encourage the Minister to provide whatever support he can financially and otherwise to building and expanding the Winnipeg Convention Centre. I wanted to ask him some general questions about the Convention Centre because one ev ening a week or so ago I went there to see what was going on. There was some, I don't know, Major Bingo or something on, and then there was another casino. I wanted to ask the Min ister about that.

There seems to be a tremendous number of casinos held there and we seem to be moving towards yea r-round casinos or legalized gambling. I wondered if the Minister had any comments or observations on that. HON. J. STORIE: First of all, I know the member is aware that this department does not deal directly with the clients that use the Convention Centre. I can only assume that those people involved in the casinos find that centre a particularly attractive one.

With respect to the operations of casinos and their seeming increase, I can only suggest that the member discuss that with the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation when those Estimates are up. 1827

Friday, 10 May, 1985 MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, what the Minister says is generally correct, but if there was a year-round casino there, I suppose that would be a tourist feature. it would hardly turn us into Las Vegas or Reno, but it certainly might be an added attraction to the city. I simply say in passing that there seem to be, I don't know if it's a hundred or a couple of hundred days of the year that there is a casino operating there, and I was just wondering if the Minister had any information or whether he's directing me to discuss this in a more narrow context with one of his colleagues. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)( 1) - the Member for Elmwood. MR. A. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, in regard to American tourists, which was discussed by two of the other members of the committee, I wondered if the Minister had any Innovative solutions for the very high price of alcohol in Manitoba. I've many complaints from both local citizens - well, I should say really from local citizens - about the high cost of liquor in Manitoba and the obvious conclusion that this hurts tourism because American tourists are used to low prices.

They come up here and in spite of a superinflated U.S. dollar, when you figure it all out our liquor prices are still expensive. I have heard all sorts of suggestions about freezing liquor prices, reducing liquor prices, allowing special consideration or dispensation for American tourists. I don't know how it would work, but it is damaging and it is discouraging to U.S. tourists. lt must be quite a shock to go from paying under a dollar for a drink in a bar to paying $3 or. more in a Manitoba bar. That doesn't make up for the exchange rate.

I was just saying does the Minister have any answers or any thoughts about how one could improve that situation? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairperson, obviously, that has been a concern raised to me by the Hotel Association and others. I don't think it's unique to Manitoba. In fact, I know that in the document "Tourism Tomorrow," the Federal Min ister raises the same concern at a Canadian lev el, so it's not something particular to Manitoba. There's no question that our tax on alcohol is high as it is across Canada.

We support through those funds, I suppose, a health care system which is a universal health care system and second to none, the Member for River Heights rem inds me, so obviously the funds that we gain from alcohol and tobacco taxes and so forth contribute to maintaining that quality health care system. Many of our American guests don't understand the difference between the way the system works to the extent that costs affect consumption of alcohol to the extent that it Impacts on the willingness of tourism to spend time in our bars and our lounges.

We are concerned and over the last couple of years have not raised alcohol taxes. The prices have increased once because of, I believe, federal excise tax increases, and once because of general recent increases allowed by the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission. So, we haven't gone out of our way to raise taxes on alcohol for two reasons, (1) because we are sensitive to the fact that price affects consumption, and (2) because it does inhibit to some extent, or Is seen as an inhibitor of tourism traffic. We 're cautious of that.

I don't know whether there's any definitive study that tells us that alcohol and the cost of alcohol per se are a major factor in deter mining whether a visitor comes to Manitoba. I don't believe that it is. I don't believe people say, well, whoopee, let's go and get drunk in Winnipeg. I think they come here to visit friends and relatives; they come here because we have tremendous natural resource; we have a cultural resource that is, I think, unique in Western Canada. So, they come here for those reasons; they don't come here for alcohol.

Certainly, when they are here, obviously, they will notice that alcohol is expensive. I don't know that it's such a great deterrent, given the benefits that accrue to the government and the people of Manitoba by virtue of that revenue flowing to the government, I don't think it would be realistic to expect dramatic reductions in alcohol taxes in the near future. I guess it's like a lot of other areas. it's a disadvantage but there are many, many advantages that tourism operators have in Manitoba that will allow them to compete very effectively with any other province or any other loca tion in the world. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Point of order? MR. H. GRAHAM: I'm sure the Minister wouldn't want to allow inaccuracies to exist on the record . When he said that the most recent increase in liquor prices was allowed by the Liquor Commission, I think that should be corrected. it was ordered by the Minister of Finance. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a point of information, it's not a point of order. The Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. A. DOERN: I'm glad the former Speaker got that point in whatever it was. Mr.

Chairman, I simply say on this question that obviously the price of liquor is a very Important consideration in whether people come or not. it's a question of how much does it cost for a room; how much does it cost for food; how much does it cost for entertainment, etc. lt Is a consideration. I think If you look at the other side of the border, a lot of Manitoba tourists stay In a facility In Grand Forks where they give the Canadian dollar at par, so obviously that is an attractive featu re which draws people to that particular motel, hotel, etc. Mr.

Chairman, I also wanted to ask the Minister about the negative effects of a few months ago, whether he has discerned them and whether he has attempted any program to counter them? There was some bad feel ings created between Manitoba and North Dakota over Garrison and MANDAN. There were some foolish remarks made by the Minister of Energy and Mines, hinting at a shoppers' boycott. I thought that was despicable at the time. it see ms to me that there must have been some negative fall-out as a result.

I simply say to the Minister , have his staff or his people who supply him with Information from the States and In Manitoba found that there was some hard feeling and has anything been done to counter this, or has it just naturally dissipated? HON. J. STORIE: I wouldn't want to ove remphasize whether the assumption that that conflict created any 1828

Fridaf. 10 ... � 1185 decrease or had any impact at all on the tourism traffic. I tend to agree with the member that the conflict centred In the political sphere. I don't think it impacted very greatly on the average North Dakotan. I think that people understood that it was politically motivated and the frustration that was felt by North Dakota legislators was unfortuli8te In that it focused on the Manitoba position, rather than the fact that it was a U.S. federal agency which had made the decision.

Certain ly, we had been lnterveners and made our thoughts known on that problem but, In fact, it was a U.S. federal agency which made the decision. I can only accept the fact that they were frustrated and, I suppose, In their own way would wish that the agency had ruled otherwise, but since that time we saw a 2 percent Increase In overnight traffic last year and the first quarter of this year Indicates approximately a 2 percent Increase. So we're satisfied that it had no lasting effects. Apparen tly, the department did some testing of attitudes and found no hard feelings.

As I said, I think that the feelings focus generally at the political level and did not reflect any long-term or substantial frustrations or animosity towards Manitobans, general ly. So we don't sense that it has had any impact. We feel that our hands across the border approach has been effect ive and that we still admire and respect and have a great deal of friendship towards North Oakotans generally , as Manltobans, and I think the feelings are mutual. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the Min ister about competing with neighbouring provinces like Ontario.

A week or so ago the Ontario Government sent out a tremendous brochure through the Free Press, a large coloured supplement, 20-odd pages of materi al, obviously quite expensive, went out across the countr y, obviously designed to pull Manitoba tourists into Ontario. Inci dental ly, a glaring omission In that publication was Mlnaki Lodge. They had a single line saying something like a sleepy little village located at Minaki, and after pouring $20-30-plus -mllllon into that facility, which Is a first-class international resort, they really goofed.

As a matter of fact, I wrote the Min ister of Tourism In Ontario to point that out. I don't know whether he - he hasn't reponded yet on that omission - but maybe he's the former Minister of Tourism and maybe he 's been replaced . But the point is that Ontario is attempting to attract Manitobans to 8ntarlo. What are we doing to attract people from Ontario, in particular, and other Canadians to Manitoba? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I did see the Insert that the member was talking about and certainly it would be nice to think that we could afford to do that kind of broadcast or shotgun-approach adlll8rtlsing.

I don't know to what benefit it will be to Ontario. I suppose they have their own analysis of the merits of doing that kind of advertising. We have designated Northwestern Ontario as a prime market. We have a supplement that will be coming out. I believe it's 8 pages, somewhat less glossy, I suppose. That, along with other generic advertisi ng, I believe will spur what potential there is In that part of the province coming this way.

I think we have some natural advantages over other parts of Ontario and other markets, simply by virtue of the fact of our proximity to some of the communities in Northwestern Ontario. We have many financial and commercial links with those communities and that assists us. I think if you look at the reaso ns for trips from Ontario, that by and large there are two categories, as I said. One is sightsee ing, simply coming to a major urban centre and that's one advantage; and the second one, Inte restingly enough, Northern Ontarians come to Manitoba to visit friends and relatives. So we have those two natural links.

We do some promotion in the area and consider it a primary market. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I also note that they divided their province Into tourist regions. I can't remember what they called Northwestern Ontario but it was something like the sun belt - (Interj ection) - No, it had the word "sun" In lt. - (Interjec tion) - Pardon? MR. W. STEEN: Sunset. MR. R. DOERN: Sunset region? lt gave the connotation of heat and light, both. The final question I have, Mr. Chairman, is on Gull Harbour . I get the Impression that they're doing some adver tising; that they're performing not too badly.

I'm wondering how they are doing In terms of profit and loss and whether we're really - well first of all, just on profit on loss. Is that a viable operation at this time? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the Gull Harbour facility Is the responsibility of the Minister for Natural Resources, not my depar tment. Members of my department do sit on the board of directors and it has been relatively successf ul. I think that the marketing efforts that they have undertaken have worked.

We are going to be strengthening the board I belie ve fairly shortly with some - what I consider to be - high profile Industry people from the province. We believe that we can strengthen that resort and make it a tremendously profitable and exciting venture. Gen erally, I understand it is currently generating a surplus on an operating basis, so I think that's good news. We know that there is untapped potential in that resort and In that area generally and we will be pursuing it with vigour.

Once the appointments to the Ve nture Tourist Board are announced, I think that will add some additional profile to that resort in particular. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the final question I had again was I think that there obviously has to be co­ ordination between yourself and the Min ister of Natural Resources on this facility, but I know people who have decided not to go to Grand Forks and Fargo, you know in the last year or so, because of the exchange rate.

I've heard several stories of that and obviously there's a market there for our own people so that there should be more advertising and promotion to get people to access our own facilities. I think we have an advantage at the moment. lt might be temporary but we should fully exploit it. 1829

FridaJ, 10 May, 1985 MA. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(1) - HON. J. STOAIE: No, just a comment before we pass that. I think the member makes a good point and just for the Information of the committee, the overnight traffic In Manitoba, as I indicated on a couple of occasions, has increased. Traffic to the United States from Manitoba has decreased very dramatically, so I think that the member's remarks about the exchange rate and perhaps other factors are signif icant at this point.

I think Manitobans are awakening to the reality that there Is that exchange differ ence and also to the reality that there are a lot of opportunities out there to explore Manitoba. Certainly the facility at Gull Harbour Is one of those. We will be undertaking in the near future a num ber of major co-op advertising ventures to promote Manitoba to Manitobans. I think it will be extremely successful and will tap into the underlying problem that faces the tourist going to the United States. MA. A. DOEAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MA. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)( 1) - the Mem ber for River Heights. MA. W.

STEEN: I'd like to ask the Minister along the same lines as the Member for Elmwood was just questioning him. Gull Harbour or Hecla Island - that resort was closed for a portion this past year for renovation and for expansion. What are the number of rooms that are within it and what was the previous num ber, prior to expansion? HON. J. STOAIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairperson, the facility Increased its room capacity from 60 to 90, and its restaurant and convention facility capacity went to 240, so it's just targeting a somewhat larger market and giving us a little more fle xibilit y. MA. W.

STEEN: The weakness before for conventions there was the fact that it was a little on the small side. With the expansion, I know that having been there on a numb er of occasi ons, that you would almost feel like you're walking for yards and yards because the facility is all spread out. Was the expansion to put a second floor on or is it just spread out even further, and will it make it that much more difficult for perso ns who have room accommodations at the far end to get to the dining facilities and the meeting facilities, etc.? HON. J.

STOAIE: Ye s, I think that others like yourself have recognized its tentacle or spread-out nature and the new facility is a little more compact and we hope or we believe a pretty exciting package, kind of state­ of-the-art tourism attraction area. MA. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, did I hear the Minister correctly sa ying that the facility itself is part of the Minister of Finance' res ponsibilit y? HON. J. STOAIE: lt's the Minister of Natural Resources. MA. W. STEEN: Oh, the Minister of Natural Resources.

Does this department, the Department of Tourism, pick up any of the losses that might incur in the operating of the facility there? HON. J. STOAIE: No. MA. W. STEEN: So Venture Tours - is that who the Minister said that would be appointing a new board In the near future? HON. J. STOAIE: I don't know if it's Ven ture Tours Ltd; I believe it is. Venture Manitoba Tours has a board. I simply indicated we would be strengthening that board. MA. W. STEEN: And their responsibility is primarily what? To market the motor hotel at Hecla? HON. J.

STOAIE: No, their re sponsibility , as with any board, Is to direct, set policy to the management. They operate as a Crown corporation board, In eff ect. MA. W. STEEN: To operate the facility on a day-to­ day basis or to market the facility which the Department of Natural Resources operates? HON. J. STOAIE: No, I think they're a board of directors, and board of directors sets policy and direction for the facility. The management, per se, Is done by management personnel. I believe it's on a contract basis. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MA. F.

JOHNSTON: Is the management contract still with the same hotel chain that it has been for the last three years? HON. J. STOAIE: Ye s, I believe that's correct. MA. F. JOHNSTON: The upgrading of the facility was done. One of the major problems at Hecla Island, when you refer to service, was having enough good staff. The staff accommodation - has it been upgraded and made more of a liveable condition for staff that have to go up there and live there? HON. J. STOAIE: I can only answer that we are working on dealing with some of the problems that the member identified.

Although it isn't directly our department, I suppose the members on the board could answer more definit ively, but I believe that most of the staffi ng, the quartering problems, have been dealt with. MA. F. JOHNSTON: I wonder if the Minister could break down the figures of the amounts that he has In his budget for Marketing and Travel Information and Tourist Development, etc., that he made. HON. J. STOAIE: I'm sorry. I'm just getting some information that was requested earlier. I apologize to the mem ber, I missed the question. Would he repeat it for me? MA. F.

JOHNSTON: I just wonder if the Minis ter would break down for us - I don't want a complete breakdown - I just would like the breakdown of the budget for 1830

Friday, 10 MeJ, 1886 Marketing - he gave us Marketing, Travel Information, Tourism Development, Ad Planning and another department of Servicing and Grants. What is the marketing budget? HON. J. STOAIE: Mr. Chairman, before I continue, the Member for Vlrden, in attempting to correct the record, erred. I was correct when I said that the latest increase was ordered by the Liquor Control Commission, not because of any advice or direction from the Minister of Finance but because of increased cost to suppliers and distributors, as I suggested.

With respect to the question raised by the Member for Sturgeon Creek, if I can break it down into six different areas of expenditure: Program Development was some $37,000, a similar figure to 19 84-85; Advertising was increased approximately 10 percent or 11 percent to $Q30,000; Industry Co-op Advertising, 83.3; Group Travel, 271 .9; Promotions, 211; Publications and Media Support, 580 fbr a total budget of $2.11 4 million - and an Increase of $264,000 more than 10 percent, closer to 11 percent increase In Marketing; so we have seen a substantial increase. We feel it's important.

Obviously, I know the member's goin g to say we should do more. Some of our competitors are doing more. We felt that because of some of the things we learned over the last few years, with more appropriate targeting of the marketing effort, with the co-operation that we are receiving, that we can be pretty effective and are prognosticating a fairly significant increase in tourism to Manitoba. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Who is the advertising agency for the Tourism Department? HON. J. STOAIE: lt's not my brother-in -law, is it? lt's We stcom Communications.

I should indicate that there are a number of advertising firms that have lent assistance to the department over the last year, some of that through subcontr act work from West com. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Westcom is the advertising agent and they sublet contracts to other advertising agencies. Does the Minister have any . . . HON. J. STOAIE: We give independent contracts out as well. MA. F. JOHNSTON: I wonder if he could just name some of the ones you've given them out to. HON. J. STOAIE: McKim is one. I only have two at the current time and one of them is Barry Hammond.

Graphics, and Bernie Michaleski, Design, who have done individual contract graphic work for the department; apart from the agen cy, which I Indicated, has subcon tracted to some other agencies. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Are you using an agency or is the department doing the filming and photographing at the present time; say, filming for the documentaries, not the television ads, but the documentaries that you use? HON. J. STOAIE: Ye s, to this point, Mr. Chairperson, we have utilized on a contract basis other individuals' 1831 firms to acquire film for use in our visuals.

We are intending to do a shoot, as they say, so that we can have some new and fresh material for the upcoming promotion. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, about two years ago I believe there was a helicopter flew up and down the whole province, the helicopter coming from Saskatoon because it was equipped to be able to do that work, taking film for the Tourism Department, so that they'd be able to have the film available to them. Have the province's trees and lakes changed so much the past two years that we now have to have another shoot to get film in the can to be used for the Tourism Department? HON. J.

STOAIE: Ye s, I understand that that film shoot forms the majority of the basis for the advertising package that we witnessed yesterdal' in committee. That doesn't form the sole basis, as I indicated some other particular shots, I gathe r, were purchased on a contract basis or whatever, but that shoot has been, by and large, the shoot that we have used for most of the commercials and advertising. MA. F. JOHNSTON: There should be a lot of the shoot left, I only saw three ads yesterday. Mr. Chairman, it's past 12:30, I could continue or is the committee rising? MA.

CHAIRMAN: Private Members' Hour has been waived; if you're willing, we can pass one of the Items. HON. J. STOAIE: Could I just respond to the Member for Sturgeon Creek, just to provide more information? That particular shoot has been used not only for this year, Mr. Chairperson; the shoot was used for the past three years, as well as being utili zed In other films, utilized by other departments. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MA. W STEEN: I assumed that we would be concluding the committee at 12 :30 today, it wasn't until the Government House Leader told me it was optional.

If you want to carry on until 1 :30 you can, because Private Membe rs' Hour has been waived. I have a commitment at 12 :45, because I assumed that we would operate as we normally do on Friday, and that is end the day at 12 :30. MA. CHAIRMAN: Can we pass, at least, Item No. 3, or do you still have some more questions? MA. W. STEEN: We have some more questions. I move committee rise. MA. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. SUPPLY - FINANCE MA. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: We are considering the Estimates of the Depar tment of Finance, Item 4. Taxation Division (

a) Administration:

(1) Salaries - the Memb er for Turtle Mountain.

MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could explain to me why it is that on the preferred share issue that the government did last year, that they were able to get people to, in eff ect, lend money to the government at 9.75 percent, substantially below the going market rate. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Because of the taxation policies of the Federal Government. MR. B. RANSOM: Do you suppose the Minister could elaborate just a little bit on that, Mr. Chairman? I'm not entir ely clear from his answer as to what he meant. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: In this country, dividend income is taxed in a different fashion than other income, and income from preferred shares where you're guaranteed a specific rate, is taxed at a different rate than income from a loan. The member might have seen an ad placed by one of our financial advisers, in fact, Wood Gun dy, occasionally, where they advertise that they can set things up for you so that on your first $43, 000 of income, there'll be no taxes payab le. That's part of this kind of an arrangement. MR. B. RANSOM: So I take it then, Mr.

Chairman, that the reason that people are prepared to accept a 9.75 percent ret urn on their inves tment in these preferred shares is that they will get a tax break to protect other income against being taxed. Is that correct ? HON. V. SCHROEDER: The arrangment is similar, yes, to ones used by many large private corporations and that's the net effect of it, yes. MR. B. RANSOM: I had an idea that that's perhaps how it worked, Mr. Chairman. What we have here is a situation where this government is participating in exactly the kind of thing that the Min ister stood up and condemned last night.

This is exactly how some people are avoiding paying tax. This is a tax loophole, the sort of thing that the government has attacked and now they're participating in it and, Mr. Chairman, there's a word to describe that sort of thing. In any case, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister a couple of specific questions about taxation. I believe he's had some contact about an increasing demand for purple unle aded gas in the country, that a lot of the heavy farm trucks - or farm trucks, period - that are being sold are now using unle aded gas and purple unleaded gas has generally not been available.

Has the Minister made some provision to allow that to now be available? HON. V. SCHROED ER: On the purple gas issue, it's not a matter of the government making provision for it, it's a matter of the demand being there and someone being prepared to supply it. Of course, that means storage requirements for the dealer and probably also for the farmer. In some areas, it is now available. On the other issue, I would point out that the share issue we did, preferred share issue, was not something in addition to what would have been. lt was replacing another borrowing, or another issue.

Another one would have been in the market had we not picked it up. The department very strenuously argues that there is no impact on our provincial taxes. We then get to the point where what we have to understand about our system , as I said, I believe last evening, we don't blame taxpayers for taking advantage of the laws the way they are. Sometimes I think it's possibly appropriate for government to do these kinds of things so people see how these things work, No. 1.

No. 2, I think it would be totally inappropriate for us to not do that kind of thing and not save that kind of money, because last year our saving as a result of that was fairly significant - I'm told it was $8 million. That's more than the total advertising costs of government. Now they voted against that.

If they had been in office, they could have shut down every single ad for a job, shut down every ad dealing with health problems in the province, every single ad dealing with environmental issues or labour issues or any other issue in the province and they still would have been behind where we are as a result of us having done what we did. That doesn't mean we support this particular present law, but we will take advantage of the laws of Canada as they exist for the taxpayers of Manitoba and I think taxpayers would generally agree with that. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr ..

Chairman, what we have here is the situation where the First Min ister and the Government continue to criticize individual people, well­ to-do people, so to speak, on their terms, for taking advantage of tax loopholes and of limiting the amount of tax they pay and in fact, in some cases, eliminating any tax, and that's exactly what they're doing. This government is setting up a vehicle by which people could avoid paying tax. Anybody else would describe that as hypocritical for a gove rnment to condemn on the one hand, and to participate in that practice on the other hand.

They condemn it on the one hand and yet enter into a contract with an individual that provides for after-tax compensation and then you have a member of the front benciT stand up and condemn, say he doesn't agree with the very thing that his govern ment has entered Into. The Min ister has taken advantage of someth ing that's there, of a legal opportunity to borrow money for the province, and many people would say that it was simply smart business for them to do it. Perhaps. But it also happens to be in conflict with the public position that the government is taking. Mr.

Chairman, the Minister says there's nothing to stop people and suppliers providing purple unle aded gas now. Has the department agreed to allow distri butors of purple gas - I shouldn't say the "distributors" because that may have a specific meaning - but the retailers in the towns, to colour fuel in their tank trucks, for instance, because until the demand develops to the point where it pays them to put in storage, then it's very difficult for them to provide it; but it could be mixed in the tank trucks and provided that way, and I understand that used to be the practice In the past, with gasoline before.

Has that provision been made? 1832

Friday. 10 May, 1985 HON. V. SCHAOEDEA: I'm told that while it may be that at some time in the past, that kind of colouring took place, departmental officials can find no evidence of that having occurred. There is, obviously, a problem with respect to control. Basically, what we're dealing with is not service stations carrying the unleaded gasoline at the pumps, but rather taking it to the farms to bulk storage and I would expect that the demand will build up and the problem will resolve itself, hopefully. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MA. H. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, just to continue on for a moment on the matter raised by the Member for Turtle Mountain. Firstly, I do want to assure the Min ister and his staff that that, in fact, was a practice for a number of years where little packets of dye were provided to the bulk dealers. I can recall individual 45 gallon drums of fuel being so coloured - (Interjection) - But the reason why it's more important right now, this Minister, this admi nistration has made a conscientious decision to encourage the use of unleaded gas through their taxation changes brought about in this last Budget.

I'm advised by bulk dealers that there is a problem for them. They simply don't have the storage capacity for, as yet, a limited demand. Yet, surely, if the Mini ster and the adminis tration wants to encourage the use of unleaded gas as demonstrably indicated by their Budget measures, then it seems to me the department ought to provide every possible help admin istratively till all that policy be successfully carried out.

I'm advised by Ind ividual bulk dealers that are in my constituency, a particular dealer in Stonewall that, I believe, and I would ask this question whether or not the department has received requests from individual - I call them bulk dealers; there might be a different terminology used - to do precisely that.

In other words, they have made representation to me and I'm sure to other members of the farm community that they are quite prepared to accept under whatever directions and terms and conditions that would, of course, have to apply to do the mixing, the colouring themselves under supervision of the Revenue Branch, but enable that way to provide what I think will be a growing demand for that product. I think, Mr. Chairman, it's Im portant that the Department of Finance do two things in this instance.

Firstly, not to frustrate the acknowledgement that agriculture has received over the years for some tax relief on their already extremely high energy costs and to take full advantage of moving agricultural and producing agricultural products with a tax exemption that's been allocated to them legislatively over the years and, also, as the Min ister In his Budget, I think, tried to show some leadership in, with respect to the use of unleaded fuel in the Province of Manitoba. I think both aims can be achieved.

The Minister Is simply directing his staff to meet with some of the people involved that are distributing farm fuels and let them spell out to staff how it can be done In the most efficient manner and, yet, recognizing that there obviously have to be terms and conditions under which the bulk dealer is given the opportunity to do so. The method that's been suggested by the Member for Turtle Mountain Is the one that most likely will be used. The bulk dealers deliver tank loads of fuel to the individua l farmers. We're not, to a much lesser extent, dealing with the old 45 gallon barrel.

Farm fuel requirements are such that it's usually in lots of 500- 1,000 or several thousand gallons at a time, enough to take advantage of the tax savings that have been traditionally provided to the agricultural community but, yet, not enough at this point, particularly with some of our smaller bulk dealers to set up the separate storage facilities. That may come sometime in the future, but even that is not possible at this time. So the question of availability of purple unleaded gas Is really at the heart of the matter. Mr.

Minis ter, I say that this is even aggravated further by some of the pricing practices in the oil companies of late that have pricing wars in the more heavily populated urban centres where clear gas can be purchased in some Instances cheaper than the tax­ exempt purple farm fuel gas. The Min ister Is well aware of those situations. I'm simply suggesting to him that without too much difficulty, in my judgment, a means could be found, and surely that's our role not to set up barriers or find reasons why something can't be done. Our job Is to find reasons how to do things.

The Minister has said two things in his Budget. He says he wants more unleaded fuel to be used in the Province of Manitoba and has discriminatorily taxed that way In his Budget. I don't think while he was saying that that he meant to say but I'm going to somehow reduce or lessen the opportunities, the taxing privileges that the agricultural community has had for many years with respect to agricultural production and the longstan dlng exemption of some provincial taxation on the fuels and energies that they require for that.

I think it's a question of getting together with the Mi nister of Agriculture, the Min ister of Finance and just recognizing those principles and then asking his department to carry out the wishes of your own actions, of your own Budget and of your continuing commitment to allow farmers to, at least, keep some cap on their energy costs by enabling them to, in the first Instance, make use of the new equipment that's coming out which more and more Is being tuned to the use of non -leaded fuel and, at the same time, continue passing on to a sector that needs every legitimate support that it can get in terms of keeping costs down on the farm.

The old cost-price squeeze in agriculture is as loudly talked about today as it was ever since I first came Into this Legislature by making a relatively simple adminis trative procedure available that enables the bulk dealer to colour the fuel to the customers' requirements. HON. V. SCHAOEDEA: Well, that sounds pretty reasonable. Whil e the member was talking and suggesting that people get together and discuss this, I became aware that's exactly what we're proposing to the farm organizations. so it's one of those situations where no sooner said than done.

I've got a copy of a letter here from the Minister of Agriculture to Bob Douglas of the Keystone Agricultural Producers, where he just goes over the problem as outlined by the member in similar fashion. He says, "This problem is one that involves the oil ind ustry, the farmer and government. In order to attempt 1833

Frldq 10 llq 1885 to resolve the issue we would recommend a meeting of all three parties to explore both short-term and long­ term solutions. "lt would be our recommendation that representatives from the Prairie Petroleum Marketing Association be invited to represent the oil industry if a meeting Is desired. If you wish to proceed ... "And he gave the contacts and so on. In another part of the letter he states, "While there may be no easy answer to the problem, as demand Increases, an answer will undoubtedly be found.

Officials in my department have been In contact with officials In the Department of Finance and we are prepared to work with farm organizations and Indus try representatives In an effort to find an acceptable solution." So there Is that kind of thing under way. I would hope that we would be able to solve it. it's not something that technically I can say is solved at this moment, but it's being worked on. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: While I fully support my colleagues who brought the issue forward, I just want to further place on the record some of the situations.

This particular individual was an automobile dealer who had ordered In a substantial number of lead-free motors In the half-ton trucks. When farmers started to find out that they couldn't avail themselves of lead-free purple fuel, then they were somewhat sitting on the lot and that did not do anything to enhance the truck sales in that community.

So there's another question In this regard and I ask the Min ister for his policy dealing with purchases of fuel from Saskatchewan, because in representing a riding In the southwest corner of the province there has traditionally been trading back and forth, people In Manitoba buying fuel from their Saskatchewan bulk dealers, and vice versa. lt was freedom of choice. With the abolition of the fuel tax In Saskatchewan and the government In Manitoba continuing with taxation policies on fuels, there's been a restriction placed on people buying fuel In Saskatchewan in bulk amounts. What Is the current policy on that?

Has the Mini ster assured himself that it Is constitutionally within his jurisdiction to do so, to prohibit the trade that could take place between the Provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan? What is the current policy dealing with the purchase of colo ur-free gas, particularly coming out of Saskatchewan? Are they prohibited from doing that at this particular time, in bulk quantit ies? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, there is no coloured fuel available along those borders In Saskatchewan.

The only colouring that goes on at the refineries in Saskatchewan is paid for by the Manitoba Government and that Is shipped directly Into Manitoba. So any other fuel that would come in would be taxable at the border and would attract the same tax in Manitoba that any other fuel would attract in Manitoba. MR. J. DOWNEY: I appreciate that if it's going to be used for non-agricultural purpose, but if it's going to be used for agricultural purpose, which does not have provincial taxation on it, what would be the reason for restricting that particular fuel? Is it because of the ability to police? Is that the reason?

Because that has caused a considerable amount of difficulty for people who traditionally - there are farmers who live right on the border or very close to lt - have bought from Saskatchewan bulk dealers and currently are not allowed to do so because of the Manitoba provincial tax Inspectors and the warnings and the policies that have been presented to them. I just would like the Minister to explain what his personal feeling Is and his policy. I again ask the question as far as the free trade is concerned and the Constitu