March 30,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLII No. 9

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Dicks): Order, please!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Employment and Labour

Relations regarding the Review Division of Workers' Compensation. I ask the

minister: Can he confirm that Eric Gullage, his political appointment and his

government's political appointment, when he postpones a hearing on behalf of an

appellant, he gets paid $500 for postponement and that actually, when he hears

the case, two to three weeks later, he gets paid another $500 for hearing the

same case? Can the minister confirm that this is happening?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

No, I cannot confirm that. My understanding is, when my

colleague, the minister changed the old tribunal system to the review system

last year, that we changed the fee structure from an hourly structure to a

caseload structure which was $500 per case, so I will have to take that

particular question under advisement and get back to the member.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, my information indicates this:

that in the last seven months, fifty-nine decisions have been postponed of

which, $500 for each of those decisions have been paid to the Chief Review

Commissioner, totalling, $29,500, and that when the Chief Review Commissioner

hears the cases before him, he gets paid another $29,500 - clearly, Mr. Speaker,

in violation of the legislation which indicates that each case heard is supposed

to be heard at $500. What is happening here is that the Chief Review

Commissioner, in some cases, is getting paid $1,000, double dipping within the

Review Division.

Will the minister look into it and will he report back to

this House?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let me assure the hon. member that if there is a violation of

the legislation, it will be dealt with, but let me also inform him that under

the old tribunal system, from July 1 to December 31, 1993, a caseload cost was

$1,254.16. The tribunal system from January 1 of 1994 to June 30, the tribunal

case cost was $1,138.66. When my colleague brought in the new legislation it

went from $1,136 per case to $500 a case. Now, let me say to the hon. member

that from July 1 to December 31, 1993 there were 187 caseloads of backlog. I

remember the Member for Kilbride standing in his place and ridiculing the

minister, ridiculing government that the caseload had backed up. As a matter of

fact, it backed up to 286 cases.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the minister to draw his answer to a close.

MR. MURPHY: Well, let me say to the member that it is an

awful lot better now than it was when the previous administration appointed Mr.

Maynard.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the minister indicated in his

initial response that he has really no knowledge that this is going on and that

he will check and report back to the House. Well, my information tells me that,

in fact, Eric Gullage and other review commissioners, several months ago, met

with the minister on this very issue, brought it to his attention, sought and

got granted his seal of approval for them to go ahead and do this.

Can the minister confirm that he actually knows about it and

is not being forthcoming with the House today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Let me say to the hon. member that his

information, or his source is about as valid as his chicken coupons.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Baie Verte - White Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. In

light of the major crisis we see today in the fishery you would think that we

would have learned a lesson, and that lesson is that our natural renewable

resources have to be controlled right here in our own Province and not by the

so-called experts from up along and away, as we have seen so often, Mr. Speaker.

I want to ask the minister: Is he satisfied with the fact

that the closing of the regional forest centre here will not have a negative

environmental impact on the forest industry in this particular Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, whether there is a forest

centre here or not we are going to ensure that there is proper management of our

forests in this Province, regardless.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Baie Verte -White Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, the people I have talked to in

the industry since they have heard this announcement don't feel very encouraged

by the minister's remarks here today. I can tell you that. I can tell the

minister, if he doesn't believe it - and maybe that is the problem, that he

doesn't believe it himself - there will be serious downsizing in the forest

research capability in this Province, so much so that the facility may have

difficulty` maintaining its mandate, and I suspect that there could be serious

negative environmental effects.

I will be more specific, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister

confirm that there will be no adverse effects to the operations of the Thomas

Howe Demonstration Forest, for one, and the seedling purchase services, which

are currently projects of this forest centre?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, I'm not about, today, to get

into the details of the types of research that are presently being done by the

Canadian Forest Service. Yesterday, I expressed my disappointment with the

decision that was made regarding the closure of that centre, or the reduction of

that centre to a smaller unit. I have corresponded with the federal minister in

that regard over the last three months; I am continuing to correspond with the

federal minister in that regard. I will continue beyond today in having

discussions with the federal minister with regard to the role of the federal

Forest Service and the research that it does. But we are going to continue to do

our job as well, and we are going to ensure that there is proper management of

the forestry of this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for Baie Verte - White Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say to the

minister, obviously, the corresponding has had no clout behind it, because right

now Newfoundland's is closed down while New Brunswick is still open. So,

obviously, correspondence hasn't been working, I say to the minister.

The minister has mentioned that there has been an

accumulation of an expertise in this Province regarding forest management. These

people will be laid off and could move from this Province in search of work,

which seems to be the trend of our trained people these days. Can the minister

tell the House if he plans to open a provincial forest centre to replace the

federal one, thus keeping the trained people he keeps talking about right here

in this Province, and not shipped away like the rest of them?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, at this time we do not have any

plans to open a provincial forestry centre. We do not. But we are going to do

everything that is necessary to manage the forest resources properly in this

Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Fisheries, Food and

Agriculture. In last week's Budget there was much talk about no job losses, and

it was announced there would be no job losses or, if so, very few within the

next twelve months.

The Member for Baie Verte - White Bay just yesterday brought

up about the forestry centre closure here in St. John's, which will have an

effect on the West Coast and other areas of the Province. The minister

responsible for agriculture - just a couple of years ago, the government closed

a swine station in Pynns Brook, recommended by the minister to stay open. Now, I

wonder could the minister confirm to the House and tell the House if his

department, and government as a whole, have made a definite decision to close

Newfoundland Farm Products in Corner Brook?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries, Food and

Agriculture.

DR. HULAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

No, government has not made that decision.

MR. WOODFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: The minister had some grave concerns in his

task force report back in 1991, especially as it pertained to the political and

socio-economic repercussions it would have on the eighty-three to eighty-six

employees at Farm Products in Corner Brook. Could he tell the House today that

one of the reasons why government will make a decision over the next short while

to close the Newfoundland Farm Products building in Corner Brook would be a

condition for the sale of Newfoundland Farm Products in Corner Brook? In other

words, whoever is interested in it would like to see the Corner Brook operation

sold off first before they would be interested in buying.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries, Food and

Agriculture.

DR. HULAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Absolutely not.

MR. WOODFORD: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Could the minister confirm that when the

sale of Newfoundland Farm Products takes place in Corner Brook, there would be

other opportunities for the eighty-six employees there? Would he be making any

recommendations to look after those employees?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries, Food and

Agriculture.

DR. HULAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

One thing I, as minister, must assure is that we have a good

supply of chickens to meet the increased demand due to the Tory vouchers that

are going out there to keep the Tory election campaign for the leadership going.

The question the hon. member has asked now is too hypothetical. I cannot answer

it. It is a hypothetical question.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Obviously, the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture is

too `chicken' to answer the question.

Mr. Speaker, the day before yesterday, I asked the Minister

of Natural Resources a question concerning a GIS - Geographic Information

System, combining various government divisions, and I noticed the Government

House Leader coaching the minister who was as confused and in the dark as he was

with the Hydro privatization. So I would like to ask the Government House

Leader: Is there a plan of study underway to combine the Registry of Deeds,

Crown Land Registry, and other divisions within government?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: The answer to the hon. gentleman's

spontaneous question is a spontaneous `no'. We are looking, not in any

concentrated way at this stage, at the possibility of simplifying the registry

system, including the introduction of a land title system for all or part of the

Province. The hon. gentleman, I think, would acknowledge that the present system

is cumbersome, it is becoming more cumbersome, and much more difficult to

operate, but the answer to his specific question is `no'.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern, a supplementary.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The assistant deputy minister of lands, as I understand, is

the chairperson of the Geographic Information Systems Steering Committee, and

the technical sub-committee. The purpose of the committee, obviously, is to

combine the registry and other divisions. When will the report be completed and

submitted to government?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member continues to

confuse the situation, and confuse what is going on. I know that the hon. member

worked in the lands department for a number of years as a surveyor, and I know

that he is aware that back in 1978 there was a report prepared relative to this

subject of the registry, relative to the Crown lands base, but there is nothing

going on with regard to that right now; relative to GIS is a different matter.

GIS, for people who may not understand it, is Geographic Information Systems.

In the Natural Resources Department which we now have, and

have had since August 26, we have several different GIS systems. They have

different software, different hardware; they are different systems, and they are

incompatible. Right now we have a review going on to see if we cannot integrate

the systems that we have within that department. We have a GIS system for the

geological survey. We have a GIS system for forestry. We have a GIS system for

wildlife. We have a GIS system for Crown lands. Well, if we are going to be an

integrated land management, natural resource department, we have to have an

integrated GIS system. We are working on that, and we have people working on

that, but we are not looking at an integration of the Registry of Deeds with

that, but, obviously, there has to be some co-operation between the two.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for St. John's East Extern.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to ask the Minister of Natural

Resources: When this integration is completed, and the study is completed, is

there any thought, or are any plans being made to privatize these services?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

DR. GIBBONS: We have, at this time, given no

consideration to that subject at all. What I am most interested in right now, as

the Minister of Natural Resources, is to have a completely integrated system so

that when someone comes in to our offices and wants to know something about

minerals or forests or wild life or lands, they can get it all from whatever

source they come in through, and an integrated GIS system will give that to

them.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The

Capes.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

Mr. Speaker, the buzzword in many government circles these

days, is training. Millions of dollars are being spent throughout the Province

on ABE courses, computer courses and the like. Part of the criteria to avail of

these training programs in most cases is that a person must be the recipient of

TAGS or UI benefits. I ask the minister: what about all the people who are not

on TAGS or UI, who want to train, what is his department and his government

doing to assist these people who have fallen through the cracks?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Let me say to the hon. member, that we do have programs to

assist now. However, last August, the training component of our department was

turned over to the Department of Education so if he wants to readdress the

question to the Minister of Education and Training, no problem.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. Member for St.

Mary's - The Capes.

MR. MANNING: No problem. My next question will go to the

Minister of Education and Training and end up with a longer answer, maybe.

Many Newfoundlanders who are directly involved in the fishing

industry are being compensated and trained. Many others who were employed

indirectly as truck drivers, baby sitters et cetera have been left out in the

cold in relation to both compensation and training; many are looking for only

the opportunity to train and upgrade their skills. I would like to ask the

minister: would he investigate this very serious matter and put a plan in place

that all Newfoundlanders can take advantage of the millions of dollars that are

being spent in training in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education and

Training.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, there is a perception around

that the community colleges and the various post-secondary education

institutions are so jammed with TAGS people and with Manpower seats and so on

and so forth, that there is no room left over for the other people who want to

get into the schools. Now this, Mr. Speaker, is a bunch of crap that people get

on with and they don't know what they are talking about. It makes a great

political statement for people to think they know what they are talking about

but they haven't got a clue.

The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that if the community

colleges and the private schools get contracts from the federal government to

provide schooling and in many cases we use classrooms in the community colleges;

in other cases when the community college gets a contract, they put on an

additional class. Sometimes they rent town halls, parish halls, school basements

wherever they can get. If these contracts were not there it would make no

difference whatsoever to the students, Mr. Speaker, who want to get in.

I should tell the hon. member that last year we were advised

that students finishing Grade XI had to go on a waiting list for three or four

years before they could get into a community college. We, government, said we

must attempt to address that so we freed up $1.5 million and we made space for

500 students, to take them straight from high school into the community

colleges. Mr. Speaker, we couldn't fill the classes; we couldn't fill the seats.

We made it known to the various schools and we only got about 200 students to go

in so what the hon. member is getting on with, is nothing, only a pile of crap,

he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A final supplementary, the hon. Member for St. Mary's - The

Capes.

MR. MANNING: I say to the minister, only because it is

such a serious matter, I would play his little political game but I can tell him

that in my district alone, that the provincial government is selling seats to

TAGS in the colleges here, the provincial government is doing it.

Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations which concerns the so-called $5 million Emergency Employment

Program. I ask the minister: how many new positions were created in his

department to administer this program and would he table in the House,

expenditures under this program on a district by district basis?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There were four temporary positions to administer the

program; I think the cost was somewhere in the vicinity of $80,000 somewhere in

that area, and when we draw in for the four individuals, when we finish and

conclude the program, the hon. member can be well assured that I will table all

the dollars associated with each and every district when we are finally

finished, and I might add that we are going to do a little more this year. We

are going to send out questionnaires to all the projects so we can get a real

handle on the program and how well it did. I think it did exceptionally well.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Education and Training and

concerns the Auditor General's Report as it affects school busing in the

Province. Is the minister aware of the serious deficiencies pointed out in the

report? Of the seven school boards examined, five of them provide school bus

transportation, contrary to the regulations, to students who live less than one

mile from the school. Five out of the seven boards did not have two-way radios

which are required as part of the safety program. The average load factor on

these buses was fifty-four passengers in seventy-two passenger buses. For the

second year in a row the Public Tendering Act deficiencies were noticed, some

contracts being annual renewable contracts from 1979 and other gross

deficiencies of the Public Tendering Act. Is the minister aware of these

problems and what is the minister doing to correct them?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education and

Training.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is raising some

excellent points. Indeed the Auditor General did bring to our attention some

issues that we had suspected all along that there was difficulty. We have a lot

of concerns about the busing. I should tell the hon. member that even as I stand

here today, we have a dozen people who are going throughout the Province and we

are going through every single bus contract in this Province with a fine

toothcomb, Mr. Speaker. There are things happening out there which would make

your hair stand on end.

In River of Ponds, on the Great Northern Peninsula, Mr.

Speaker, three buses leave every morning; one takes a dozen Pentecostal's to

Hawke's Bay, another takes twenty Intergraded to Hawke's Bay and another takes

fifteen or twenty Roman Catholics through Hawke's Bay into Port Saunders. If

that were the exception, Mr. Speaker, we would live with it but unfortunately

that is not the exception. It is happening all over this Province.

So the hon. member is quite right and the Auditor General is

quite right, the busing where we are spending $30 million we have to look very

closely at it. I have said that we could save $10 million if we could smarten up

our busing. As of now I still stand by that statement. Hopefully, Mr. Speaker,

over the next little while I will be able to put concrete proof on the table to

show that we will save that kind of money. There are problems there and we are

addressing them. I thank the hon. member for bringing it to the Houses'

attention.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St.

John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, as the minister will know the

schools act requires that transportation grants for pupils be given to school

boards and be used on a non-discriminatory basis. Now an average cost per pupil

of school busing in this Province is $475 per pupil transported. It has been in

some cases, as pointed out by the Auditor General, one pupil being transported

for $11,000 per year another contract want people for $7,700 and others where

there is in excess of $2,000, $3,000, $4,000 per pupil. In St. John's students

are required to either walk to school if they live one or two miles or more or

pay their own way on the City of St. John's buses. Is the minister prepared to

do something to end the discrimination against students in St. John's which

exists right now under the school transportation system and ensure that students

in St. John's receive transportation on an equitable basis with those outside of

St. John's and not have to walk to school which they do from my district right

now, as the minister well knows?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education and

Training.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I find it difficult not to agree

with the hon. member because there are so many discrepancies in the busing in

this Province. He is quite right, the people who live in St. John's do not get

busing, yet there are subdivisions in this city where people do get busing. So

you say urban centres do not get busing, yet in Mount Pearl they bus. Mr.

Speaker, I have inherited a busing system which needs drastically to be

corrected and to be improved upon. I only trust that if I have to enter into

some sort of a debate with the people responsible for this, I hope the hon.

member will then support me instead of trying to get up and make some political

points on it. There is a problem here, I am trying to deal with it, Mr. Speaker,

and I assure the hon. member that in due course it will be dealt with but the

hon. gentleman should remember, that we had seventeen years of mismanagement in

this Province, Mr. Speaker. We arrived in the nick of time -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. DECKER: We arrived in the nick of time. This is only

one of the many things. The Province was going busted, Mr. Speaker!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. DECKER: There are so many things that we have to

correct!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We did not come here to spend six years to have the hon.

member complain about the previous seventeen. The problems of discrimination of

school busing, pointed out by the Auditor General, two years in a row, when is

the minister going to do something about it and stop blaming this crowd for what

happened in the last twenty-five years?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education and

Training.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, we might just have to go for

another term. I was hoping we could do all the things in this term but it looks

like we might just have to come back. Because we had to take this Province in

hand and try to straighten it out. Normally you could do it in one term, but it

is taking us - and I apologize that it is taking us into the second term.

Hopefully we can finish it up in another year or so.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to

the Minister of Health. I would like to ask the minister if he would confirm for

the record here in the House what he related to me a couple of days ago, that

there are no monies directed in this Budget for the opening of the ten new beds

recently added to the Golden Heights Manor at Bonavista.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, I can so

confirm for the record in this House that there is no provision in the Budget

for opening the ten beds that have recently been redeveloped at the home in

Bonavista. Having said that, however, I would also inform the House of the other

thing that I told the hon. member. That is that with the arrival imminently of

the new regional health care board which will have responsibility for Bonavista,

Clarenville and the Burin Peninsula, that board may in fact be able to find

resources that would enable them to open up the beds. The fact that we did not

specifically provide for funding to open the beds this year does not mean that

they will not necessarily be open.

MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to

ask the minister if he believes it is good economic sense to spend $1.4 million

to refurbish a Level III ambulatory care facility to respond to a need, and then

allow the extra beds to remain vacant and forget about the health care needs of

the seniors in that particular area?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It makes

imminent sense to make provision for developing or redeveloping those ten beds,

because in time they will be needed, and at what point in time they are required

this government will see that there is funding available to open them up. They

will be there when the need is appropriate to put people in those beds. If the

hon. member is suggesting that there are people in other regions who should be

moved to those beds, that is a different circumstance, a different question, I

think.

MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister if he

could make a commitment, not leave it to the new health care board. Because by

the new health care board's very structure there is little or no representation

from the Bonavista area. I ask if he would make a commitment today to respond to

the need down there and react by directing monies so those ten new beds can now

be opened instead of lying there vacant. I ask if he would make that commitment

today.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I can only imagine,

speculate, on the response that the people in this member's district are going

to have to the suggestion that there is little or no representation being

provided by the two very capable individuals we appointed from Bonavista to that

health care board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I would have to say that -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I would have to say to the hon. member

that the representation that is on the board from the Bonavista region that he

represents are very capable individuals, and I would be highly offended and

insulted if I were them, or his constituents, to suggest that there is little or

no representation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. L. MATTHEWS: What a slight on the people who put you

where you are, who put you in this House. What a (inaudible) -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Now, to the first part of the question.

The hon. member can read the Budget as well as I can, and the hon. member can

accept the answer that I've given you, that there is no provision for extra

funding to open those ten beds this year. Notwithstanding that, the beds might

eventually find their way to be open once the new and capable board, of whom

there is representation from your area on, whether or not you think they are

good people, they will see that the job is done properly down in the area.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

(Inaudible) the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I go back to the

minister again, and I say to him, if he considers two people, two individuals,

on a seventeen-person board, equal representation, with ninety-four beds, taking

from a catchment area of in excess of 13,000 people, equal representation, that

he couldn't have been able to find any Liberals down there to put on his board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: That is the blatant example, and I call

upon the minister now to put equal representation on that board. I understand

there is one vacancy there -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Does the member have a question?

MR. FITZGERALD: - and to bring forward the name so at

least there will be three, instead of just two.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. member doesn't understand the difference between

equal representation and equitable representation. The people on the Bonavista

Peninsula have more than equitable representation on the new regional

institutional health care board. I would suggest that -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the

hon. member go back to his caucus room and, for want of a simpler way of putting

it, do his sums, because if he takes the number of people on that peninsula, and

compares the number of trustees that we have put on the board, he will find that

there is both equal and equitable representation. Furthermore, we have every

confidence in the people we have put there, that they will see that long-term

care and acute care in that region will be delivered on a fair and appropriate

basis, and will adequately meet the needs -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. L. MATTHEWS: - of the people that he should be

representing.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

On behalf of hon. members, I would like to welcome to the

public galleries six members of the 4-H Club from around the Province who have

been selected to attend the 4-H National Citizenship Seminar in Ottawa next week

- they are accompanied by their leaders, Marie Finlay and Robyn Moss; and

secondly, a group of twenty students from the ABE Provincial Learning Program in

Melrose, Trinity Bay, and their instructor, Mr. Kilkland Blackmore.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce

the following resolution:

WHEREAS the current practice of the House of Assembly with

respect to the conduct of private members' business does not conform to the

existing rules of the House; and

WHEREAS the current practice of the House of Assembly does

not provide an opportunity for private members to have resolutions debated

without the concurrence of either the Government House Leader or the Opposition

House Leader, which restricts members in the representation of their

constituents; and

WHEREAS the current practice promotes the use of Private

Members' Day as a government, or Opposition motions day with private members

expected to vote in accordance with party discipline;

BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the House of Assembly endorse a

system that would provide that Private Members' Day be devoted to private

members' business only, with the exception that every fourth Wednesday the

resolution for debate would be one designated by the Opposition House Leader and

be considered an Opposition motion. All other Wednesdays the motion for debate

will be the one chosen by lot by the Speaker from those private members'

resolutions of which notice has been given prior to the Monday of the week in

which the debate is to take place;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the mover of a private member's

or Opposition motion may speak first and last on the day of the debate, that all

speeches be limited to fifteen minutes, that all motions are to be voteable, and

that it be clearly understood that party discipline does not apply to private

members' resolution;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Clerk of the House of

Assembly be requested to draft an appropriate rule incorporating the above

principles for consideration and adoption by the House.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, we are back on Interim Supply.

It is Order 2 (

a) on today's Order Paper. I am not sure who adjourned the

debate. Perhaps my friend, the Member for Grand Bank had the floor when the

Committee last dealt with the matter.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I am on leave.

MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman is on leave, or left? He

was speaking by leave but hadn't left.

Your Honour, if you would be good enough to put the House

into Committee, please.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of

Supply on the granting of Interim Supply to Her Majesty the Queen, Mr. Speaker

left the Chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, I want to have a few words to

say today in this debate, and I don't know what better place to start than in

the Department of Health, after watching the performance just now, of the

Minister of Health. The performance of that minister a few moments ago is

unbelievable. He stood in this House and said to the Member for Bonavista South,

`You have equitable representation, two versus seven.' Now, he is either saying

of the people on the Burin Peninsula, that seven of them are only as good as two

from Bonavista, or the two from Bonavista are as good as the seven. Mr.

Chairman, I don't know which it is; I have my own

interpretation on it, but I

don't know the two from Bonavista, so the minister is probably right.

But I can say to the minister that if he expects that health

care board to find funding to look after the needs of opening ten new beds in

Bonavista, he is dreaming in technicolour, Mr. Chairman. The minister knows full

well that these health care boards do not have enough money now to operate what

they presently have, let alone look at operating an additional ten beds. I don't

know where the minister is coming from, to put the onus of his lack of ability

to get more money for these ten beds, and now to try to extract it from the

clinics and hospitals in the other part of the eastern region is crazy.

Mr. Chairman, his board was not appointed right, in my

opinion. He did not go out and seek out the best people. He did not ask my

colleague, the Member for Grand Bank, or my colleague, the Member for Bonavista

South, or myself, for any input, I can say to him. He did not ask us for any

input into what is happening, because I will say one thing to the minister, if

he had to ask for the best people available, regardless of their political

affiliation or association - if they had any, or if they had none - if he had to

seek the best people available, then I would not be able to stand here, but we

did not get that from the minister. The minister did not ask us if we would get

involved and assist.

The minister now may say we got - I challenge the minister to

lay on the Table of this House who recommended these people to serve on that

board, to tell us who recommended the people to serve on this board, not in a

broad sense, to lay it on the Table of this House, with the recommendation. Mr.

Chairman, I challenge him to do it, but I know he won't do it because it will

clearly indicate and show that some of these people were put on the board

strictly because of their political affiliation, and not because of what they

are bringing to the board. That's what is going on here; then, for the minister

to get up in his sanctimonious way and say that the board may find money. Well,

I don't know where they are going to find the money, because I can tell you

something right now; the Burin Peninsula Health Care Board is basically

surviving with the money. I can also say that the Burin Peninsula Health Care

Board is in big trouble. The Burin hospital is in big trouble.

AN HON. MEMBER: How come?

MR. TOBIN: Because of the lack of specialists down in

that area; they don't have money enough to pay the specialists. There are

regulations in place, I have been told - not by the minister, they have not been

put in place by the minister, and I give him credit for that - or at least I

have been told they haven't, but I would say this to the minister: Don't try to

take any more money away from the health care system on the Burin Peninsula - I

would say that to him - because if he is, then he is jeopardizing the health

care of every man, woman and child living down there. And that hospital on the

Burin Peninsula was not built for him and the Premier, and the Minister of

Finance, it was built to serve the people of the Burin Peninsula. I spoke with a

doctor the other day, and it is in big, big trouble down there, so don't let the

minister come in here and get on with that type of thing.

Maybe the minister can tell us if the Member for Bellevue

recommended some of the people from the Burin Peninsula.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Well, I don't know anything about the person.

He is probably a good person. I don't know him, but I do know that if the Member

for Bellevue had the opportunity to put people's names forth, I would like to

know why I, as the Member for Burin - Placentia West, or my colleague, the

Member for Grand Bank, or my colleague, the Member for Bonavista South, were not

given the same opportunity. I would like to ask, as well, if he contacted the

Member for Bonavista North and asked him to submit names, Mr. Chairman; I would

like for the minister to tell me why I was not asked - why we did not get the

same courtesy and the same letter that his colleagues got on that side of the

House. Those are the questions that have to be answered.

This government is looking for Interim Supply. This

government want Interim Supply in a rush. They want to ram this through so that

they can get it by Friday. Why was the House closed since January? What was the

big deal of keeping the House closed, the doors locked and barred up? Why didn't

they have the House open? I would suggest it was because the Premier was on his

jaunts, because there was no one home. Ministers were everywhere except in

Newfoundland while she was collapsing around us. While everything was happening

there were no ministers around. The Premier was over in China, the Minister of

Tourism, Culture and Recreation was over in Japan. The ministers were everywhere

except in Newfoundland.

So they expect us now to come in and ram through Supply by

Friday. I believe that this is probably one of the latest times the House was

ever open in terms of a Spring session. And now, all of a sudden, there is a big

rush so they can pay the bills. We were home until March 1. When did the House

open, what time in March?

AN HON. MEMBER: March 16.

MR. TOBIN: March 16. We were home.

AN HON. MEMBER: We were open on March 15, opened a new

session.

MR. TOBIN: Yes, March 16 they opened the Legislature, and

now they want Interim Supply by the end of this week. Why wasn't the House

opened?

AN HON. MEMBER: They're calling an election.

MR. TOBIN: An election next week? Mr. Chairman, I hope

they are. I hope the Premier has the courage to call an election. Because the

sooner the Province rids itself of this corrupt bunch over there, that we've

seen on Trans City, that we've seen raised in the House again, the sooner the

people of the Province are rid of them the better. Seven million dollars on

Hydro - one of these days we will show you who got the money from Hydro and

their affiliation with this party over the years. We will show you who got the

million dollars. We will point it out quite clearly. We will show you who got

the million dollars out of the Hydro deal, we will show you who made the money.

We showed who made the money on the Trans City deal. We've exposed that, who

made the millions on the Trans City deal, and we will expose who made the

millions on the privatization attempt of Hydro. We will see all of that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, I don't care where I am, as long

as I'm speaking out for the people of this Province. We have just seen the

government take $10 million away from the poor of this Province and put it into

the Department of Natural Resources because the Federal Government have taken

the $10 million, and this government never said a word about their friends in

Ottawa, not a word.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. TOBIN: By leave, Mr. Chairman.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister of

Education and Training.

Never, Mr. Chairman, did we hear `a whimp or a whimmer' from

the Minister of Natural Resources attacking Ottawa, taking on Ottawa which was

destroying the forest program in this Province. While Frank McKenna was hauling

the jobs out of this Province, 100-plus jobs gone from this Province to New

Brunswick, not a whimper from the Minister of Natural Resources. I'm not sure he

knew anything about it until it was raised by the Member for Baie Verte - White

Bay. I'm not sure the minister knew anything about it until then, because his

answers clearly indicated he knew very little.

Mr. Chairman, there are other areas - and I don't want to

hide this, I will come back to it in a minute - but there are other areas such

as the budget of the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs that we have

to get at, and how it is going to shut the construction industry in this

Province. The construction industry in this Province this year has been brought

to a halt and all the hundreds of jobs, the thousands of jobs that have been

created will not be there.

When a contractor moves in some place you look at all the

fuel, the gas, the food, the water and sewer supplies. Is that going to be

there? Because the Premier wanted to balance the Budget so that he could retire,

Mr. Chairman, because the Premier wanted to say he had a balanced Budget so he

could announce his resignation some time this Fall, the construction industry

has to go under? There will be contractors in this Province who will go bankrupt

this year because the Premier of this Province wanted to announce his

resignation with a balanced Budget, that's what is happening, and the crowd over

there are so happy to get rid of the Premier, they are going along with it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. TOBIN: I will have the opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to

get back to this debate in a little while.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Education and

Training.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Chairman, I don't share the extreme

sentiments at all that an hon. friend from across the way seems to have. I think

it would be highly appropriate that this House would go on record as

congratulating the Minister of Finance for bringing in a balanced Budget. I am

not sure if hon. members realize just what the Minister of Finance did. It

struck me as a shock. Everybody expected that he would balance current account,

that was fait accompli, but nobody expected that the hon. minister would balance

current and capital accounts, Mr. Chairman. Can you imagine the message that he

has sent out to the rest of this country and to the world? Current and capital -

Mr. Chairman, just think what else the hon. minister has done: for the first

time since Confederation we have actually made a payment on the debt which

previous governments had run up.

What we were like, Mr. Chairman - we were like someone who

goes and gets a loan from a bank; a year goes by and you discover that you can't

afford to pay your principal back, so you pay the interest. Now, for years and

years they went on, the loans would come due and they would pay the interest.

Then the previous Administration ran into such a mess that when the interest

would come due they would have to go and borrow to pay the interest and run up

more capital debt. Now, where were we heading? We were heading, Mr. Chairman,

into bankruptcy. But I still believe in fate. I still believe that somewhere

some power guides what happens to a people, whether it be -

MR. TOBIN: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Burin -

Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, I am having difficulty hearing

the hon. minister while the people behind him are straightening out earning

salaries. I wonder if they would be quiet and let the minister continue?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I ask hon. members for their co-operation, that they give the

hon. member an opportunity to speak and let all other members hear him.

The hon. the Minister of Education and Training.

MR. DECKER: I believe in fate, Mr. Chairman, f-a-t-e. I

believe that somewhere there is a power which guides the lives of people, and I

believe that fate intervened back in 1989. Can you imagine where this Province

would be today had Tom Rideout and his gang taken power? Now, if you looked at

the polls when the election was called, do you realize that we were twenty

points behind the Tories when that election was called? There is no way that we

could have closed that gap. And had that crowd, with their leader, Premier

Thomas Rideout, become the government of this Province, today, we would not be

standing in this House; we would not be standing here today as members of a

sovereign Province, we would probably be a territory. Some time ago, I visited

the Legislative Assembly in the Northwest Territories; hon. members should go

and visit it - a beautiful House, Mr. Chairman, it is a semi-circle, no parties,

similar to a town council or a city council.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where?

MR. DECKER: In the Northwest Territories. When I sat in

that House last Fall, I began to think to myself, that's what we would be like

in Newfoundland and Labrador, totally dependent on the Federal Government, no

say in our own destiny, we would have been wiped out for the second time in our

history. And, as I said, I believe in fate, I believe there was intervention

which brought this particular Administration to power, and look at what we have

done. Now, just look at what the hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board

did, when he brought in a totally balanced Budget and just look at the odds

under which he did it. He did it after seventeen years of mismanagement -

seventeen years of mismanagement. We came into power in 1989 with all the hopes

to bring some progressive government, to bring some Liberal government to this

Province, and when we opened up the books, what a mess was there facing us!

The first thing, $25 million for cucumbers, and I can

remember watching the television set and seeing truckloads of cucumber being

bused out to the Goulds and out to the bay and dumped, and the cows turning up

their mouths as they had to face another meal of cucumbers. I remember going to

the shops and seeing those blessed, big cucumbers that Peckford talked about,

that long, they were, a dollar each, Mr. Chairman, and it was costing $5.00 each

to grow them! What a mess we inherited!

Then, Mr. Chairman, when we opened the books we discovered

that thirty cents on every dollar that we spent had to go to pay off the massive

debt that was run up. This is what happened - $500 million per year just in

interest alone. Now hon. members should realize just how much money that is. You

know the Education Budget for this coming year is a little over $700 million.

Now, that is to go into teachers' salaries, into school construction, it's to go

to Memorial University, to go into all the different educational institutions

and the service that we provide, $700-and-some-odd million, yet, we are spending

$500-million-plus in interest, Mr. Chairman; in interest used to pay for stretch

limousines, to pay for Dawn Sprung -

AN HON. MEMBER: Frank Moores.

MR. DECKER: - Frank Moores, deals cooked up behind the

curtain as to whether or not -

A few days ago we were looking at the pension fund, and there

is a little line in the pension fund which says that a Premier shall collect a

pension when his age plus years of service equals fifty-five. Everybody else is

age plus years of service equals sixty, so why should the Premier be treated

differently? We were wondering why. And to find out the answer from someone who

knows, by sheer coincidence -

AN HON. MEMBER: Did `Joey' do it?

MR. DECKER: Did Smallwood do it, they ask? No, Mr.

Smallwood didn't do it. Did Clyde Wells do it? No, Clyde Wells did not do it.

Did the present Minister of Finance and Treasury Board do it? No. Did Ed.

Roberts do it? No, Mr. Chairman.

By sheer co-incidence, Frank Moores, on the day that he

wanted to retire, his age plus years of service would equal sixty-five? No,

fifty-five. Now, that is the kind of government we had in this Province for

seventeen years. Logic was thrown to the wind, no one cared about logic or

reason, all they did, Mr. Chairman, was cave in to political self-interest.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader, on a point of order.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

I don't really want to take the minister's time, but he can't

be allowed to go unchecked because, on a number of occasions, I have heard the

Government House Leader brag about how much input he had in developing and

devising the current MHAs' pension plan, so I think it is unfair for the

Minister of Education to stand up now and to blame it squarely on former Premier

Moores when the Government House leader - I don't know if he is minister;

half-Minister of Justice now - bragged so openly about how much input he had,

and how proud he is of the scheme. So I think the minister should at least be

fair and say that the Government House Leader did have some input into it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

MR. DECKER: Of course, there is no point of order, Mr.

Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. DECKER: When you start cutting to the quick, they

will do it every time. They will get up on phoney points of order, which are not

points of order. Next, it will be a point of privilege. Then they will walk out

because they can't face the facts. The fact of the matter is they practically

put this Province bankrupt, and they know it, and when anyone slaps it up to

them, they use phoney rules of the House to try to shut us up.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. DECKER: You see, my time is up; they interrupted me,

Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, we are supposed to be debating the Interim

Supply bill. We heard previous speakers. I think the Member for Eagle River, the

other day, had a few words to say on Interim Supply. The Minister of Education,

this evening, was supposed to be speaking on Interim Supply, and spent ten

minutes talking about the faults of previous governments, and where some of the

money went.

Mr. Chairman, the minister, though, in talking about the $700

million that is in the Education budget for this year, and about the $25 million

that was spent on Sprung, failed to say - and there is not a member over there

who will get up and admit it, or say it - that the $700 million it takes to run

the Department of Education is the proceeds of one year's revenue from

Hydro-Quebec on the infamous Churchill Falls deal. Who did that? What party in

this Province had to do with giving away our birthright? What other party in

this Province gave away a total sum of approximately $800 million per year - per

year?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODFORD: Five years, and we could have our deficit

wiped out completely, and we have members opposite who have the gall to stand in

their place and talk about $25 million for Sprung - not even enough to pay for

one transformer from Hydro-Quebec, $25 million.

Hon. members opposite stand in their places and talk about

previous governments. If ever we went back and took it from 1949 to 1971, there

is not enough paper - we would have to start a new paper mill in this Province

just to mark down and put in the statistics, and document the faults and the

errors that were made from 1949 to 1971, and I won't even talk about the last

six years.

Mr. Chairman, some of the people opposite the other day when

we were discussing just a few short months ago talking about the sale of Hydro -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: I didn't have to take nasty pills, I say to

the hon. member, because what I am saying can be documented. I am not talking

about $25 million of Sprung that is not documented - but to get up and talk

about a measly - we won't even talk about what happened with some of the

businesses in the Province, and some of the money that has already been wasted

in the last six years. We won't look at travel; we won't look at money spent on

trying to privatize Newfoundland Hydro - we won't look at any of those things -

but people should realize that we got elected to come in here and represent our

people the best way we can under the conditions that exist out there today.

The hon. the Member for St. John's Centre got up the other

day and gave a speech, and not one word he said was wrong, not a word. Now, one

thing I will say about the Member for St. John's Centre, even when he was a

minister, at least when he got up to speak on Budgets, Interim Supply, or

something like that, I can remember some comments he made that were very

pertinent to his constituents at the time, and he was consistent. I say that,

not because he is out of Cabinet. He stood in his place and spoke on behalf of

his constituents. He didn't get up and lambaste former governments. He didn't

get up and spend his ten or twenty minutes talking about a previous Premier. He

got up and told it like it was, the way all hon. members in this House should. I

am living in his district now and he is doing his homework for the next

election. It is no good in saying he is not running again. If ever he gets up

and says he is not running again, he is doing an awful lot of work out there as

the Member for St. John's Centre, and doing it well.

Mr. Chairman, we have to call a spade a spade, and no matter

what hon. members say, last week's Budget, while it looks good, it is glossed

over. We have people out there who are suffering. We have people out there who

can't make ends meet. We are in here, some of us making $100,000 a year; we are

okay, we get paid every second Wednesday. But I have people in my district, as

well as the hon. Member for St. John's Centre.

Now, I say this to members opposite who are representing

constituencies in rural Newfoundland: if the Member for St. John's Centre has

problems in his district, then God help some of us out in rural Newfoundland

today, I tell you that. When they say there is a 20 per cent or 22 per cent

unemployment factor out there, Mr. Chairman, I beg to differ. I would say there

is more like 35 per cent or 40 per cent, Mr. Chairman. Every day the phones are

ringing.

You always have some people saying something about social

services, or about something else. You always have a few - no matter where you

go you have a few. And some will say, `so and so' is beating the system. But do

we have to throw out the babe with the bath water? Do we have to just clean

everything out, throw everything out, just because we have a few bad apples? Mr.

Chairman, if we, as members, are listening to constituents of ours, each and

every one of us, not only on this side of the House, we have our beliefs and our

partisan views to speak of when we get up, but hon. members opposite,

backbenchers as well as Cabinet ministers, they have to hear it. I am living in

the same area, we are living in the same Province.

Now, getting back to the question to the Minister of

Fisheries, Food and Agriculture today with regard to Farm Products, there is one

thing I would like the minister to stand in his place and tell me: The beliefs

that the minister had in February 1991 - how are they so different from the

beliefs he has today? The minister sat there just after presenting this

document, a good document, no question, some great recommendations in there but,

I mean, we have done it all before. We go back to the Doug House Commission on

rural development, some years ago - I just forget the exact title - that was put

on the shelf by members of the PC government at the time. Some things were

implemented and some were not.

This is one written by a gentleman, a minister, who is now in

a position to do something about each and every part of this document. He is

responsible for an industry, where, if you look at the economy for 1995, it grew

- agriculture grew in this Province last year and pretty well every commodity

group had an increase. A few years ago people just laughed when you talked about

blueberries, but look at the increase this year, 664 tons from about

100-and-some-odd tons just a short year ago. The potential there is unreal.

Now, I say to the minister that he is going to have to collar

his colleagues in Cabinet and get support from members in the back benches,

especially the Member for Port au Port, who knows full well what I am talking

about when it comes to rural development, and about the potential for

agriculture and aquaculture in this Province. You are going to have to get

support. If you, as a government, and Cabinet ministers, find fault and find a

reason to dilute and cut certain things, or put something in place that will be

detrimental to agriculture in this Province, then God help you in other

departments. The other departments don't have a prayer, or a leg to stand on.

The minister told me today the decision is not made to close

Newfoundland Farm Products in Corner Brook. Why would management talk to the

employees in Corner Brook and tell them - as good as tell them, or insinuate, or

whatever - but leave them with the impression yesterday evening that that

particular facility would close? Now, there is something in the wind. There is a

subsidy cut this year to Newfoundland Farm Products, almost 50 per cent. You

don't have to look at the Budget or be a mathematician to know what is going to

happen if you cut a very small, minuscule amount of funding from Newfoundland

Farm Products. We know what is going to happen. I say to the minister, some

things he is going to have to be very cognizant of.

What about the eighty-six employees? The Forestry centre is

gone, that is going to have a trickle effect down to Corner Brook and other

areas of this Province, and even out his way, to some extent, albeit it may be

small. But no matter how small it is or how big it is, in the rural areas of

this Province today it is going to hurt.

What about the processing capacity in St. John's? Has that

been looked into and has it been determined that that particular facility can

accommodate the processing capacity of the West Coast of the Province? What

about the extra quota that is not allocated to this Province, that has been

sitting in Ontario and Quebec for the last number of years, that should have

been allocated to this Province? We are missing out - and there was a 12.7 per

cent increase in broiler production in this Province last year. That is pretty

well based on the old quota. There was a little increase in quota, not much, but

we have a great potential.

What is happening is, if we don't act fairly soon we are

going to lose the quota allocation from Upper Canada, so to speak. They took

away the feed freight assistance program. That will be gone over the next number

of years. That will be, I think, something like $0.12 or $0.13 per broiler, or

$0.12.8, whichever. Then we have the subsidy gone now to broiler producers in

this Budget. If that is going to continue - because I think it was recommended,

if I'm not mistaken, in this particular task force that it would be reduced by

approximately 5 per cent a year until it was done away with.

We have to be very careful in those cases. We have employees,

we have producers - I think about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of the broiler

production in the Province is in the Humber Valley area - Humber Valley,

including Howley, Cormack, Reidville areas of the Province, Mr. Chairman. I

realize that consumption is on the East Coast of the Province but up to 56 per

cent or 57 per cent of the production now, is probably on the West Coast of the

Province. A lot of it is in Whitbourne and in other areas of the Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: My time is just about up, anyway, Mr.

Chairman.

If the minister rises in his place, I would like him to

address some of those problems and not get up and be partisan all the time.

Let's be constructive and do something. Because if we want to go casting blame

and talk about blame, and talk about monies that were wasted in the past, we can

go on forever and a day. I can start plucking out from every department in the

Budget and have a field day with every minister over there.

DR. HULAN: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, okay, you can speak to the industry. I

hope you have something good to deliver to the industry, and I hope you stand to

be counted down there. Don't and don't milk nothing else out of the diary

industry like you did with the broiler industry.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to spend a few minutes on the

forestry aspect. In the estimates - in the Interim Supply Bill, under natural

resources there is $20,107,000 for natural resources which includes forestry.

Now, Mr. Chairman, forestry is one of the most important sectors of our economy

in this Province, especially after what happened last year. As people know,

Kruger was pretty close to closing out number four machine in Corner Brook last

year but they got an agreement with their employees, the dollar strengthened and

added some help to what was happening in Corner Brook. The government brought

back $15 million I think it was 500,000 or 600,000 hectares of timber rights in

the Province but, Mr. Chairman, we should not have to buy back anything from

anybody. I am a firm believer that we should have total, total control of our

forest industries in this Province.

If I or any member opposite has to go down to Crown Lands or

has to go down to the forestry office to get a permit to cut 200 cubic metres of

pulpwood or 2,000 cubic metres of timber for lumber for sawmills, why shouldn't

Abitibi Price and why shouldn't Kruger have to go down and get a permit? We've

operated for years - agricultural people in the Province today have to go and

get a lease from Crown Land. We cannot get a grant anymore because the

government doesn't trust us. The government says: well you may work your land

and after a few years you may relax what you were doing with it. You may not do

it and then it is gone forever because we only got one percent of the land in

this Province suitable for agriculture.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: That is right, who brought in the

regulation about granted land. We know who brought in the regulation about

granted land but what I am saying to the minister is - she is affected by this

in her area because there are a lot of sawmills and so on in the area and

surrounding areas - why shouldn't Abitibi Price and Kruger have to go down and

get a permit? If a farmer in this Province goes to the bank today the banks will

take his fifty year lease or his fifteen year lease, they will look at it and

they will give him his line of credit, give him his capital funding to invest.

Why can't the banks give Kruger or Abitibi Price their capital funding and their

lines of credit to invest? No, we got to own it. Ninety percent of St. John's,

the commercial sector of St. John's is operating on a lease. Yet, we cannot

build a cabin, we cannot grow a stick of wood, you cannot go down and build a

wharf, you cannot do anything now.

AN HON. MEMBER: You can't jig a fish.

MR. WOODFORD: Well, if you want to get into that, you

can't jig a fish, you can't catch a trout, you can't run your ATV. Well soon,

Mr. Chairman, it will be a police state. You will soon want to carry a little

booklet with you, Mr. Chairman, on the rules and regulations before you get out

of your car and step on the shore or step in the woods or step into a park. Now

that has to change.

We have people who went in the woods - the former minister is

there now who brought in those infamous regulations pertaining to ATVs. There

was never any consultation put into it. We had people going in - and I am a firm

believer of protecting the environment but if someone can tell me that if I went

in on White River Road today, I went in to cross it - the minister doesn't know

any more about bogs in this Province then I know about flying the shuttle. The

minister didn't know any more about bogs then I knew about flying the shuttle to

the moon.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is why she is not there today.

MR. WOODFORD: That is why she is not there today.

AN HON. MEMBER: Don't be nasty now.

MR. WOODFORD: And that is not being nasty. That's why I

am saying the minister should have gone out and got some input into it. A fellow

goes in last year -

MS. YOUNG: (Inaudible) do nothing.

MR. WOODFORD: Do nothing, well if she doesn't want to go

through another Caucus meeting like she did yesterday morning, now I say she

better be careful, Mr. Chairman, because I would say now the Minister of Social

Services is soon going to be on the hot seat again. I guarantee you -

But, Mr. Chairman, members opposite, members in the back

benches, members in the front benches, over the past year have gotten all kinds

of representation from people who were in the woods. They go in on a bog to kill

a moose and they cannot even carry it out. They cannot even take the ATV and go

in and take it out. Now what is that going to do? What is that going to hurt if

a gentleman takes an ATV, goes in and puts his moose on it, brings it out and

that's it?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for LaPoile.

MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I suppose if we sit here long enough and listen

wrong about this crowd opposite as they would put it over there, then maybe we

would start to believe some of what we hear; but, Mr. Chairman, let us talk

about some of the good things that are happening in the Province; let's talk

about some of the positive things that are happening, some of the positive

government initiatives that will take place and even though, those who are

blinded in the opposition by their desire for power, would want not that

anything was happening in the Province; they would prefer those who are in

despair to perpetuate in despair; they would prefer that those who are

downtrodden remain downtrodden.

Let's look at some of the good things that the government has

development of information technology and establish a task force called ONLINE,

which is the Opportunities in Newfoundland and Labrador in the New Economy, what

about that? That's one thing that we have done; they have developed a

Secretariat to work with the private sector and government and identify the

opportunities and report back to government in six months time, to give us some

direction as to how they feel a government should go forward in the new economy

with respect to ONLINE, computers and high technology areas.

What about privatization and the outsourcing of government

expenditure? Well, we have already sold Newfoundland and Labrador Computer

Services, Mr. Chairman. Newfoundland Hardwoods and Hotel Holdings Limited will

be sold soon and that's another one where this government took the initiative to

make sure that the Hotel Holdings was not given away for a dollar. The court

decision was appealed and the Province is now in the driver's seat and stands to

gain for the taxpayers of this Province, substantially, on Hotel Holdings, so

that's another initiative that this government undertook in the good stewardship

to try to maintain for the people of the Province.

What about the privatization of certain services that are

done and have been done over the years and maintained by this government in

Works, Services and Transportation? Some 70 per cent of the budget of Works,

Services and Transportation is now publicly tendered so some 70 per cent of that

budget is in the public area, privately tendered for private sector companies to

be involved. All capital works of the department is contracted out, I mean,

anything that we go through and they often talk about Trans City, but really the

overall effort of Works, Services and Transportation is to support private

industry, partner with them by providing them with the information and they do

the work and that is a good, genuine way of government providing this.

The winter and summer road maintenance activity in Labrador

will be up for public tender by mid-1995, that's another area where government

is going out to the private sector and undertaking initiatives of partnering.

The provincial Cabinet and a Chamber of Commerce have developed a committee

which will soon move forward with the identification of other initiatives and

this is undertaken out of the public/private/ partnering conference that was

held recently under the direction of the Newfoundland and Labrador Chamber of

Commerce and the government has decided to take a pro-active approach in this.

What about getting the message out? It is one of a few

different programs that the government has initiated. We have initiated through

the school system, A Getting The Message Out Program so that the success stories

here in the Province, that these stories are told, that the students in their

school system realize that they can do it here at home, that they do not need to

leave, that they can create something here at home just as well as they can

anywhere else in the country or in the world. The efforts through the Ambassador

Program. We have supported this initiative to take expatriate Newfoundlanders

and others who have reasons for being involved with Newfoundland and Labrador,

to support and promote the Province through our contacts with them, through our

provision of information to them throughout Canada and throughout the world and

this has proven to be very successful. There are other efforts that we have made

in the area of co-operative education, areas of providing funds and expanding

enterprise education throughout the school system and this will reap benefits in

the future.

Another point which I would like to make is in the area of

Employment and Labour Relations. An initiative which came out of the Strategic

Economic Plan, is the Preventive Mediation Program and this was established last

year and they had 370 requests. This is where we are trying to do what we can to

improve the labour relations climate in the Province, prevent labour strife

before it happens. So this preventive mediation program has really reaped good

rewards for us. Some 370 requests for services last year and new funding

committed this year to continue that program. It is proven this government is

pro-active and is taking efforts in order to see to it that the Province puts

forward its best foot in the area of labour relations.

What about some good news on taxation. Changes to the general

corporation tax regime and the mining tax regime have also proven to be quite

positive. These efforts have really brought it home that new developments in

Newfoundland and Labrador will certainly reap benefits.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) lottery revenues (inaudible)!

MR. RAMSAY: Some lottery revenues are there, and there

are problems associated with that. Did you have a question or something?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) how does that benefit

businesses (inaudible) changes that your government made to lottery revenues

(inaudible)?

MR. RAMSAY: Just to respond to that issue. As lottery

revenues grow - which it certainly seems. I know a number of bars in the

Province that have split themselves up into three and four companies. One here

in St. John's I know has now three or four bars inside the same premises so they

can have more and more of these lottery machines. They've taken advantage of a

situation. Of course, business people usually manage to rise above small changes

in government policy which - and I fully understand, it may be a large -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) answer a question?

MR. RAMSAY: I suppose I can. Go ahead.

AN HON. MEMBER: You said take advantage. Do you mean take

advantage as in abuse, or take advantage in (inaudible)?

MR. RAMSAY: No, no, fiscal advantage. As in business.

AN HON. MEMBER: Pardon?

MR. RAMSAY: As in a business way.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. RAMSAY: Anyway, getting into the new mining tax

regime here in the Province. In conjunction with the changes to the mining act

and a small exploration assistance program, we've seen a large increase in

mining exploration here in the Province. It increased by some 10 per cent in

1993, by 40 per cent in 1994, and a projected increase of another 40 per cent

again in 1995. It is noted as one of the more friendly places for mining and

mining exploration in the country, and probably throughout North America. Peggy

Witte, the chair and CEO of Royal Oak Mines, was quoted as saying, at the

Canadian Mining and Metallurgical Association meetings last year, that

Newfoundland was one of the best places in all of North America in which to

mine. That the efforts made by the government here have made it a very friendly

place in which to do business.

The department that I'm involved with, the Department of

Industry, Trade and Technology, has significantly expanded its budget this year

to undertake efforts under the Strategic Economic Plan. Also, new initiatives in

the area of promotion of business, new initiatives to professionalize the effort

that is being put forward in promotion of the EDGE legislation to attract new

business investment to the Province; and also, reorganization of the department

has taken place and a more strategic focus has come forward, so that we can go

forward and do our best to attract new business investment. It can be new

business investment growing here at home, it can be new business investment

coming in from other provinces and countries, but also it is the overall

approach we take to make Newfoundland an attractive place in which to do

business.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who said you are doing a good job,

(inaudible) apart from yourselves? After yourselves, who said you were doing a

good job in attracting business?

MR. RAMSAY: The Newfoundland and Labrador Chamber of

Commerce is interested in supporting the efforts we've made, the St. John's

Board of Trade. We have good support and cooperation from the rural development

council on the efforts that we've been making. The zonal process that we have

developed, (inaudible) zonal approach to regional economic development, that is

another area where there is a lot of cooperation that has been exhibited. They

are in approval of the government's progress on this to this date. Hopefully

there will be significant amounts of money committed so that the different zones

can undertake economic development initiatives close to home, in their own

areas.

If you look at editorial comment, the terrible coverage that

we've received over the years that I have held a bad taste in my mouth over, the

same as members opposite, in The Globe and Mail , seems to have shifted

somewhat. We don't know if it is a full shift or if it is just every other

editor (inaudible) -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to make a few comments in regard to Interim

Supply, and also a few comments on what the Member for LaPoile had to say.

AN HON. MEMBER: He should have a public meeting.

MR. MANNING: First, I think he should have a public

meeting out in LaPoile with the people out there, and see how many people are

happy about the good things that this government is doing out in LaPoile.

Just to touch on a couple of the good things he talked about,

about the task force on information network - another task force - my God, how

many task forces can we handle?

Taxation changes, I say to the Member for LaPoile, the

payroll tax was a great change, a really good thing for the business people in

this Province, the payroll tax, excellent. They talk about new business

investment, and the people who are supporting the government in their initiative

on new business investment. They talk about the Newfoundland and Labrador

Chamber of Commerce; maybe they are. We talk about the St. John's Board of

Trade; maybe they are.

He touched on the rural development council and their support

of the zonal concept under the Strategic Economic Plan. I say to the Member for

LaPoile, as we stand here or sit here today in the House of Assembly, members of

the rural development movement in this Province are converging on Gander for the

annual general meeting, and I can guarantee you that there is not much support

for the zonal concept among the rural development associations of this Province.

There may be among the hierarchy of the development movement that were thanked

for their help in delivering the zone concept to the Province, and by the latest

appointments to the Economic Recovery Commission, I say to the Member for

LaPoile.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: What's that?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: The zonal concept that the Province has put

forward under the Strategic Economic Plan will create havoc for a lot of small

communities in this Province, especially in my District of St. Mary's - The

Capes. With thirty-one small communities, we can see that a lot of those

communities are going to be left out in the cold because of this zonal concept

that the Province is putting forward.

I say to the Member for LaPoile that you may have some people

within the Province who are supporting the new business initiatives of the

government, but in the latest edition - and he talked about The Globe and

Mail , and I brought this up the other day, and I will reiterate the few

comments I made the other day and add on a few more as it relates to the

Atlantic Progress magazine that graded the Premiers. I say to the Member for

LaPoile, and anyone opposite, to check out the final analysis that they rated

our Premier as last in relation to a provincial rating of premiers in Atlantic

Canada for bringing business investment into their province. Frank McKenna from

New Brunswick scored the highest, with a B+; Catherine Callbeck, who our Premier

says he wouldn't compete with in order to create jobs in the Province, from

Prince Edward Island, was second with C+; Premier Savage and Premier Wells tied

for third place with C; and some comments were passed by business leaders in the

Province that if the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador were a business, we

would be bankrupt.

So, I say, don't read The Globe and Mail . They are the

same crowd who condemned us as barbarians and savages when it came to the seal

hunt back a few years ago, I say to the Member for LaPoile. Don't believe in

The Globe and Mail . Believe in yourselves. Believe in the people of this

Province and what they are trying to say.

I say to the Member for Lapoile, we look around this Province

now and there are a lot of people hurting because of the economic situation. We

look and say: Sure, we balanced the Budget; and in one sense of the word you

feel like congratulating the government on balancing a Budget, but then you have

to ask yourself, on the other hand, is at what cost did they balance the Budget?

They balanced the Budget on a $10 million reduction to social services, that we

heard in the Budget the other day. They balanced the Budget on selling off the

south coast ferry, and taking the funding for that from the federal government

and putting it toward the current account to bring up and balance the Budget,

over $30 million, that was put there to keep the south coast ferry operating for

years to come. We will see reductions in the next couple of years in the

services, as the Member for Placentia touched on the other day in the House, and

I am sure that we will see this.

Mr. Chairman, I will touch on a couple of things I was asking

the Minster of Education about today in relation to training. I was in my

district yesterday to a couple of classes that are doing some type of training,

and they are finishing up, I believe, today or tomorrow. They wanted to do some

further training with ABE, or whatever is the case, and because they are not on

TAGS, or receiving UI benefits, they cannot partake in this training.

Therefore I say to the members opposite, and to the minister

who took it as a kind of joke today, the joke will be back on the minister who

is responsible for education and training in this Province when hundreds of

Newfoundlanders, not only in my district but throughout the Province, are being

left out in the cold in relation to all the millions and millions of dollars

that are being spent in training in the small outports, and indeed in the cities

of this Province, Mr. Chairman.

I say it is not fair to these people who are indirectly put

out of their jobs because of the fishery closure. Because they were not directly

involved in the fishery, they are now being left out in the cold and cannot take

advantage of all this training that has been going on. Those people have brought

their concerns to me and I have brought it here to the House today only to be

ridiculed by the Minister of Education and Training, but time will tell who will

win the debate on the dollars that are being spent on training in this Province,

Mr. Chairman.

I would like to touch, if I could, on something we were

talking about the other day in relation to the fishery. My district is 100 per

cent dependent upon the fishing industry for hundreds and hundreds of jobs, and

people have found that over the past couple of years people who are directly

involved in the industry are being compensated for training, being compensated

for the loss of their income, have been compensated and helped out in every way

possible, but some people who were not directly involved in the industry, as I

said before, have been left out in the cold. I believe this concern should not

only be addressed by the Minister of Education and Training but should indeed be

addressed by all members of the government, because this is a big concern that

people have.

There is also concern in the reduction of social services,

and exactly where those reductions are going to take place is a concern that

will come up over the next couple of months. We talk about the Budget and trying

not to be dependent upon the federal government, and trying to chart our own

course. The Premier is off in the States now trying to drum up some business for

the Province. I do not necessarily disagree with all his efforts in trying to go

to other parts of the world to bring back business to the Province and bring

back jobs and industry, but we also should be putting as much effort on

maintaining what we have and building on what we have, Mr. Chairman. I say right

now there is a problem with maintaining what we have.

There is a lot of government waste, and I say to the House

today that we should look at places in this Province who could use some dollars

for some type of training, or some type of work, related projects, or whatever

the case may be. We had millions and millions of dollars to spend on trying to

privatize Newfoundland Hydro, we had millions and millions of dollars to spend

on travelling all over the world, but at the same time we have hundreds and

hundreds, and thousands in a lot of cases, Mr. Chairman, of people in this

Province who cannot make ends meet. I am sure it is no different in St. Mary's -

The Capes than it is in other districts.

I say that the new business investment that we talked about

in trying to bring in business to the Province, I am sure, is welcome news to

anybody who is trying to stay here in this Province and trying to make a living.

With the cutbacks in the fishery and with the downturn in our economy now, I say

to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation that what he started in

Employment and Labour Relations certainly cleared out the front benches here

today after Question Period. I say the trouble is only starting with that, Mr.

Chairman.

I say, Mr. Chairman, that we balanced the Budget, but we

balanced it on the cost of putting a lot of Newfoundlanders back to the food

banks, back to social services, who never had experienced this before. I say we

should certainly put our priorities straight and not have the Premier, in his

last year in office, at any cost balance the Budget, Mr. Chairman. I think it is

unfair to the people of the Province, it is unfair to the many people who have

been left out in the cold by this government over the past number of years, Mr.

Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for LaPoile.

MR. RAMSAY: Mr. Chairman, I am scarred by that scathing

attack by the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes.

Anyway, in response to some of the things the hon. member was

saying, I would hope that he does not think that any of us would close our eyes

to problems in our own given districts. As he knows that kind of crass politics

would be the kiss of death politically, and that kind of activity is certainly

not becoming any member of this House. I would certainly hope that he does not

think that any member on this side of the House, nor any member on his own side

of the House, would act that way.

Now, I was giving some of the good news, and there is more

good news, Mr. Chairman. There is more good news in this Province. It is not to

overlook the bad and the difficult things that people are experiencing, the bad

times that some of them have, and the difficult situation that faces us, but to

focus on that wholly and solely gives you a jaded view of the world. To think of

an animal, a salamander say, or a fish, swimming in a well and looking up

through, then that particular fish will only think that the sky is but a blue

circle. To think of that as an example of someone or some thing that sees the

world from a very narrow perspective; that is probably the way that the

Opposition would see the world, from the narrow viewpoint of an animal, a fish,

salamander, what have you, chameleon, down inside a well looking up, and

thinking that the sky is nothing but a blue circle.

MR. DUMARESQUE: A red circle now.

MR. RAMSAY: To understand that there is a positive side.

To deny the positive side is to deny your constituents the enthusiasm that is

necessary to help them get up out of the difficulty that they are in, and to

inspire them and lead them into the new economy, to lead them along into new and

brighter things for their children, for your children if you live in your given

district, for all of the people in your given area.

Mr. Chairman, there are some good things happening. The hon.

Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation has undertaken some initiatives and

certainly has recently developed an advisory council to give input into the

overall tourism development strategy. This is a way that we can see to it that

we are listening to the industry, that we are developing the necessary

strategies in the areas of adventure tourism, festivals and events throughout

the Province for tourists who come into the Province over the year.

Recreational fisheries strategy. We get a large boost to our

economy from recreational fishermen. These people, local and people from

outside, do spend significant amounts of money in the Province pursuing the

recreational fishery in both trout and salmon, and other activities that are

undertaken.

The hon. Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation is

actively supporting the Cabot 500 Corporation and its planning for the 1997

celebrations. I have some personal reservations about the overall focus that

seems to be taken, but hopefully with good communications back and forth between

Cabot 500 and the government and the caucus here, and even the Opposition

caucus, should they be so interested in pursuing efforts on their districts'

behalf, that we can make this a better initiative for all concerned, and that we

can make the Cabot 500 celebrations a significant event for the Province and for

the nation.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. RAMSAY: The Department of Fisheries, Food and

Agriculture is another area that there are significant efforts being undertaken.

The recent development of a scallop-spat hatchery down in Belleoram is the kind

of public investment that we hope eventually to privatize, but it is the kind of

thing that will allow us to stimulate the aquaculture industry. To look at other

areas, the overall focus of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in Ottawa is

to catch up where we've fallen behind in the area of aquaculture as well. That

kind of strategy, combined with the efforts of the provincial department, will

see new rewards and developments. It will never employ the numbers of people who

were employed in the past in our fishery as it once was, but it would certainly

add significantly to the overall economic prospects and economic base of the

Province.

Also, we are moving ahead on our commitment to establish an

internationally competitive business climate. There are a number of different

initiatives in this area and we are pursuing it through our reductions in

corporation taxes, through the elimination and reduction of unnecessary

regulations - the commission established under Mr. Justice Nathaniel Noel,

retired gentleman who is undertaking this on government's behalf. It will see

the rescinding in this Legislature of any unnecessary regulation that is not

needed by the people of this Province for purposes of safety, for purposes of

public security for the general good of the people. Any regulation that exists

for the perpetuation of bureaucracy or the reshuffling of paper will die on the

Order Paper after the report of, Mr. Justice, comes in. So that is the kind of

initiative that we have to undertake.

We are streamlining and consolidating government departments

and agencies under the so-called one stop shopping or the one stop government

permitting structure. This is another area where government is doing something

good for the people of the Province. We are also getting our own fiscal house in

order. Balancing the Budget is another area that will give a good message to the

people throughout the country and throughout all of North America, that we know

what we are doing and we have our house in order.

We are reviewing all current labour legislation here in the

Province. That is another area, along with the preventive mediation process, is

certainly going to see good results for the Province. We are streamlining the

environmental assessment process. Soon we hope to have a White Paper issued by

the hon. Minister of Environment on how they feel that they can best go about

this. So this is another initiative to make sure that sustainable development is

the key - that the regulation of the environment does not act as an impediment

to overall sustainable development here in the Province.

EDGE legislation; well what do we have as far as results on

the EDGE legislation so happily supported by the Opposition? We have had two

companies approved in January, there are two more which will be announced

shortly and there are eight currently being reviewed by the Public/Private

Evaluation Board and this is certainly a lot of activity. Seven others have

submitted applications that are currently being dealt with and over twenty other

applications are anticipated soon. These are inquiries ongoing, negotiations and

information being sourced back and forth between the companies and the

departments of government that are necessarily providing information. Also to

note, if hon. members opposite recall, we had a toll free telephone campaign

recently. We received over 1,000 telephone calls and we have sent out over 5,000

packages. They have been sent out worldwide on the EDGE legislation of

Newfoundland and Labrador. So we are seeing substantive results.

We have had extensive promotions so far in North America with

the Premiers visit all across Canada and down the Eastern Seaboard of the US.

There are further visits planned for other parts of the United States and we

also have plans for Europe this summer. So these are the things that are

happening. This government is not sitting idly by and doing nothing. This is a

government that is taking a proactive approach to economic development here in

the Province and it is a government that is going to do it in spite of the

downtrodden views and feelings of the members of the Opposition at times. We

know they had to put forward an opposition to government policy but it would be

so good to hear more constructive criticism, to hear criticism with a view and a

vision for the future, to hear criticism that gives us a way of going about it

in a different way and at times they have been very good at that. They offered

constructive criticism of the EDGE legislation, government undertook to review

it and did make changes. So the Opposition should know that when they come

forward with good criticism it will be listened to and this government does

respond.

Also we point out some other things. The recent Budget that

we are speaking about here in Interim Supply puts forward an amount of $10

million for new initiatives under the Strategic Economy Plan. Those new

initiatives are initiatives of the people, not necessarily initiatives of the

government. Government carries it out on behalf of the people. The Strategic

Economy Plan was developed in consultation with the people of the Province and

members of the Opposition had input into it. So this is a template, it is a

living document. It is a document which allows us, as the government and

trustees on behalf of the people of the Province, to work hard on their behalf,

to focus our energies in areas that the people of the Province want us to focus

on. It gives us a guideline to go by but - it being out for the last two years

of course, and its need to be a living document - there will have to be changes.

Some things have changed since it was first brought out. The

fisheries crisis was not upon us at that time. The other aspects of information

technology and the convergence of different technologies has allowed it to be so

that there are significant things that were not taken into account at the time.

So we are making changes as we go along. There will be future amendments and

deals with the Strategic Economic Plan and how we go about improving the plan

for the benefit of the people. I don't think we need a thorough deliberation

process throughout the Province. Maybe it will take thorough consultation with

economic development groups throughout the Province to know what we need to

change and to know what different areas we need to focus on as we proceed in the

future.

We put in $500,000 for improvement to the service quality

initiative to the service quality secretariat of the Public Service Commission.

We want to improve the front-line workers' abilities to deal with the public. It

is the public of the Province who need public services as provided by

government. Government is not here for the people to support. It is the

government that needs to support the people, and the needs of the people, in the

public services that we provide, so we want to be able to offer them high

quality service. We want the public servants to feel good about their efforts in

serving the people. We want the public servants to feel good about their jobs,

and we want them to carry out good quality public service for the public of the

Province, and this is an effort on that behalf.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I listened with avid interest to the hon. the Member for

LaPoile when he was talking about the things that this government does.

Everything is positive. Absolutely every step it makes is a step forward. It is

too bad they don't live in the real world out there. I don't know what happens

to some members when they get elected. All of a sudden they come in here and the

real world disappears, and everything that you do in here cures all the ills out

there. Well, it doesn't work like that, and if you stop and listen to some of

your constituents, and listen to them honestly, and don't block them out, don't

refuse to hear them, you will hear that everything you are doing isn't correct,

the same as when you went forward with your idea of privatizing Hydro. We told

you time and time again that the people were out there against it. No, no, you

said, they are not against it; it's just they haven't been told yet.

AN HON. MEMBER: They are still not against it.

MR. A. SNOW: You see what the hon. Member for Exploits is

getting on with again? They are still not against it, he says; they are in

favour of it. They want it sold, they want it given away; that is what the hon.

Member for Exploits says, but that is why people have such a disparaging view,

or a disgusting view, or a poor view, or maybe it's the real view, of the

politicians today, because we don't accept the reality of it; we are not

accepting reality.

I don't stand up here and say that everything that this

government has done is wrong. Every reform that you have made hasn't been wrong.

Some of the things you have done have been good. I can think of the funding of

the Trans-Labrador Highway. It is good that you are continuing the construction

of the Trans-Labrador Highway.

Balancing the Budget in a proper fashion, the aim of

eliminating a deficit, balancing a budget, if it were done properly, is good,

but I can't balance my budget by taking my Visa and paying off the MasterCard.

That is not a balanced budget. That is not balancing my budget.

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible).

MR. A. SNOW: No, the hon. Member for Naskaupi, now, we

are talking about this year's Budget. I want to bring him back to reality.

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible).

MR. A. SNOW: Anyway, he will get the opportunity, in a

couple of minutes time, to stand up and speak on whatever he wishes, but he

should allow me to continue now and say what I want to say. Then, he can speak

after. That's fair. That's why people have devised rules for the operation of

this forum that we are in here in the House, so I would hope that he would

respect that.

Now there are some things this government has done that I

agree with in regard to legislation, the EDGE legislation as an example. It is a

good piece of legislation, but it is not the only thing. It is not the be-all

and end-all. It is not going to cure everything. It might attract some

businesses from other provinces, and they will accuse our minister of poaching.

AN HON. MEMBER: I never poached in my life.

MR. A. SNOW: Well, if you haven't poached in your life

you are one of the few Newfoundlanders who hasn't.

AN HON. MEMBER: No, but he has eaten it.

MR. A. SNOW: I am told that -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. SNOW: I won't continue in that vein.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. SNOW: Yes, I will get out of there as fast as I

can.

Anyway, Mr. Chairman, other provinces will accuse this

government of poaching. In other words, going into their jurisdiction and their

provincial boundaries and attracting businesses to locate over here through

incentives that are being offered under this particular legislation. And that

has been said already.

When people stand up on the other side and say: What this is

going to do is cure all the unemployment, it is going to be fantastic for the

business community - it is going to be good for certain businesses that will

come here and be accepted under the EDGE program, but it is not going to cure

everything. We can't have that many vodka plants, believe me. There are not

going to that many attracted here - vodka plants, that is.

There are things other than this particular legislation that

this government is going to have to do, or any government that wants to attract

business, to encourage more business investment within this Province. It is not

just me saying that. I'm talking about - I live in the real world. It is not

just me here saying that the businesses are disappointed. The business community

in this Province thinks that our Premier has done the worst job in Atlantic

Canada for attracting business to this Province. They think he has done the

worst job. That is a quote.

Yet we have people standing up here saying - the Member for

LaPoile stood up here in the House and said that the business community supports

this government wholeheartedly, that they are a good government, that they are

the best in the country. That is not what the polls are saying. The poll in

Atlantic Progress , in March -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. SNOW: You won't believe it anyway, so what the

heck is the difference what it is? It is an article. What they say - here is a

quote. It says: I give Callbeck an A for attacking debt only because the

province is forced to cut or virtually go bankrupt. She got an A. What did Clyde

Wells get? These are comments from a business leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. SNOW: The Member for Exploits, now, you can

understand why he is really pushing for business. He has never met a person yet

who has read Atlantic Progress . He has never met a member of the Chamber

of Commerce, he has never met a person who has been in business, who has ever

read this magazine.

Mr. Chairman, I will tell you - this is what a business

leader said.

MR. ROBERTS: Name him!

MR. A. SNOW: `Clyde Wells is concerned with image and

public perception - '

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

MR. A. SNOW: ` - but there is often no real substance

beneath the veneer of the position or the program.'

Now, the Member for Naskaupi says: Hear, hear! It is the

Member for Naskaupi who said it, who agreed with it. The Member for Naskaupi

said: Hear, hear! He agreed with this person. He said: Hear, hear! Now, that is,

I believe, in parliamentary terms -

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman has every

right to be confused, as he demonstrates every time he opens his mouth, but he

has no right to misrepresent. My question to him, which I repeat now, was: Who

was this business leader? He has gotten up and quoted anonymously. Now, that is

the mark of character assassination. I say again, he has every right to be

confused and every privilege to be confused, but I wish he wouldn't let his

confusion spill out and expose himself in the way in which he does.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Chairman, I read the quote of a business

leader in Atlantic Canada and while I was speaking the Member for Naskaupi said:

Hear, hear! Now, I know the Premier is in New York and he is out, so you can

knife him. The last leader they knifed, he was in Boston! The last time you took

on a leader and stuck him in the back, he was in Boston! I don't know why - now

listen. I can give you some warning now. The Member for Exploits or the Minister

of IT and T, when you get to that chair, don't go to the Eastern Seaboard.

Because you know what can happen if you go down the Eastern Seaboard. Because I

think you two are the top runners here.

AN HON. MEMBER: `Chuck' is ahead by a country mile.

MR. A. SNOW: Well, we have a hopeful in the back benches

but he doesn't have the wherewithal, I don't think, to do it. He definitely

doesn't have the support of caucus. I am told the Member for Exploits, the

minister responsible for ITT, the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation, the Minister of Education and Training, believe it or not -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. A. SNOW: By leave, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I wonder if the hon. member could take his seat for a minute

while I announce the questions for the Late Show?

The questions for the Late Show are: `Mr. Speaker, I am

dissatisfied with the answer provided by the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation to my question re the Wabush airport safety,' and that's the hon.

the Member for Menihek.

`I am not satisfied with the answer to my question to the

Minister of Finance concerning lease financing, the cost of the health care

centres,' and that is the hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

The third question is: `I am dissatisfied with the answer

provided by the hon. the Minister of Education and Training re my question on

budget allocation to Memorial University,' and I think that is the hon. the

Member for Mount Pearl.

The hon. the Member for Menihek, by leave.

MR. A. SNOW: I was about to say I am pleased to place

this name in nomination, but I won't go so far as to say that, Mr. Chairman.

People over there are saying -

AN HON. MEMBER: How many?

MR. A. SNOW: How far did I get, anyway? I got over as far

as - oh, yes, the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. He wants to have

a go at it, but he is not sure about how much public support he is going to get

out there.

AN HON. MEMBER: How about the Minister of Finance?

MR. A. SNOW: The Minister of Finance, I think, is going

to bow out of this race. I say there is a pretty good chance that he could be

the interim leader. He will just fade off into the sunset.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. A. SNOW: We could have two now. The story coming out

of Labrador has it that you could have two. There are only four seats up there,

forty delegates up for grabs and two of them are going to be into a dog-fight. I

don't know who is going to win this one, whether it is going to be the young

fellow from Eagle River or the old political warhorse from the 1950s, or the

1960s, or the 1970s.

Then, of course, we have the Minister of Health. He has more

suits than most of the dry cleaning plants in St. John's, so he is ready for the

campaign. Now, he thinks it can be won with a new tie, a smile, and a visit to

the old age home. That is all you have to do, he says - that's his strategy. But

it is going to be more difficult, and those people I mentioned know it is going

to be more difficult than that. I want to wish them luck, and I hope they do a

better job at governing when all this starts.

MR. ROBERTS: Over the next ten years?

MR. A. SNOW: No, you only have about two years. The

Member for Fogo, I think, is going to be - the camps are starting to split up.

There was almost a majority at caucus in one camp there today right after

Question Period. There was almost a majority of the Liberals right there in one

little bunch. I mean, if somebody had planted a - well, I won't say it. Anyway,

Mr. Chairman, apparently that's the list of people who will be running for the

Liberal leadership. I wish you luck and I hope you do as well in the promoting

industry in the Province and helping out with keeping the economy going -

MR. MURPHY: The member has finally admitted that there

are ten people interested in leading this party and only two in leading that

party.

MR. A. SNOW: I want to remind the hon. minister that he

should never confuse quantity over quality. Now, that may be what occurs with

people involved with the Workers' Compensation appeal process, there is quantity

there but, Mr. Chairman, it is quality we have to be worrying about, quality,

and I will urge the minister to think about those things when he starts looking

at appointments to boards and all of that stuff, make sure it is quality and not

quantity.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for LaPoile.

MR. RAMSAY: Thank you. Question, Mr. Chairman?

AN HON. MEMBER: Is he up or what?

MR. CHAIRMAN: If the hon. member wishes to speak, I wish

he would start.

The hon. the Member for LaPoile.

MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In rebuttal to the hon. member's comment about quality not

being mixed up with quantity, I would suggest that the huge numbers that they

purport to have attended some of their nomination meetings were possibly more

influenced by the quality of food and not necessarily an interest in the party,

so really, one has to always look at all of the factors that affect the

influence and the confluence of individuals who purport to support political

parties.

MR. A. SNOW: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Menihek, on a point of order.

MR. A. SNOW: I wonder if the Member for LaPoile could

tell us how many of these nomination meetings he attended? By his girth he has

attended several of them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. RAMSAY: Oh, now we are getting into the `fat' jokes,

Mr. Chairman. Anyway, I am not bothered by that, I have a thick skin.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that there is no point of order.

These are trivial points of orders that are being raised. The point of order is

there to enable members, if they have a legitimate point of order to raise it,

but this afternoon there have been several points of order which have been

trivial and I ask hon. members to refrain from that in the future.

The hon. the Member for LaPoile.

MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) fridge.

MR. RAMSAY: I realize I have but a voice of the fridge,

yes.

Anyway, I just wanted to continue with some of the positive

things that I have been saying, and you would swear, Mr. Chairman, that the hon.

members opposite are terribly afeared, they are scared of hearing positive

things come forward from this government, to hear positive speeches, to hear

things that inspire, things from those of us on this side, the many who aspire

to lead, the many Liberals in this Province who feel that we can carry this

Province into the 21st Century, Mr. Chairman.

Members opposite have but two, and two reluctant ones at

that, who decided after so much prodding and poking that they had best come

forward or there would not be a leadership convention for the PC Party, the

onetime great party in this Province, the onetime great party in this nation,

which has been decimated to the core, which has been decimated to a meagre phone

booth existence in the national capital region of this country. And to see that,

is to understand the problems they are having with the two remaining leadership

candidates for their party.

Now, I was speaking about some of the positive initiatives

that this government has taken, and I have certainly been able, over the last

couple of times I have spoken, to put forward a lot of the positive side of

things. There are a number of others, of course, as I mentioned, the $500,000

that was committed to mineral exploration assistance. The Department of Tourism,

Culture and Recreation has another $800,000 for various tourism-related

activities; the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology, as I mentioned,

with a $3.5 million commitment to business promotion, and the promotion of the

EDGE legislation, and the promotion of a variety of different initiatives which

will yield results here in this Province.

There are exciting things that will happen in Newfoundland

and Labrador. Newfoundland and Labrador is no longer seen as the junior partner

in Confederation. Newfoundland and Labrador is seen as a place that is serious

about its commitment to high technology, its commitment to small business. It is

serious about its overall commitment to getting its economy in order, and the

commitment to money to promote the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology

initiatives is this government's commitment to see that through.

We have also committed another $1 million, as I mentioned, to

aquaculture research, and the stimulation of the aquaculture area as a

full-fledged industry partner in the overall provision of economic benefit to

this Province, so that is another thing; the $100,000 that we have committed to

expand the Preventative Mediation Program, to see to it that labour relations in

this Province do not go the way that they create a terrible impediment to the

overall provincial economic climate.

We have also committed $10 million to forestry, to

arrangements in silviculture, to pick up the slack left because of the

non-renewal of the co-operative agreement on forestry development, so that is

another positive.

We are also - and we will be doing this in consultation with

industry - implementing a science research and experimental development tax

credit. This tax credit will allow new initiatives and inventions, and new

technology applications being made, to develop new products for industry here in

this Province, to give them the advantage that is necessary, because current tax

policy in Canada does not allow people to input money into the research and

development area. As it currently stands, they are better able to leave their

money in mutual funds, better able to leave their money in a variety of

different banking instruments, rather than putting their money up for high-risk

things such as high technology development.

So this initiative is an area where the government of this

Province has said: Look, we need to put some tax credits in place that will help

make the overall picture for investment in high technology that much better for

the investor. By doing so, it will help us to access some more of the capital

that is necessary to stimulate this sector, to access the capital necessary, and

to make it such that these people who have availability of money will want to

put their money up and invest in these small, high technology companies, and do

it here at home. So that is the kind of initiative that this government has

taken.

Now, what about small business formation? You say: Oh, this

is wonderful; this is grand old stuff, `Bill', what you are saying here, but

what does it mean? Have we been getting any results?

The fact of the matter is that we have. We have looked at the

figures and we have, at this stage - and it is not just something that has been

created as a result of the TAGS monies that are flowing into the Province, it is

not just the fact that people are all setting up training programs for TAGS, or

other initiatives in that area. The overall establishment of small business in

this Province is not exceeded by any other province. It is equalled by British

Columbia, a booming province, and this Province, of course, is equalling British

Columbia in the establishment of new small businesses, and this is not just a

statistical error, or a statistical aberration. It is such that when you look at

the figures, and they are analyzed - and the departmental officials who analyze

this do tell us that it is a significant improvement in the overall

establishment of small business here in the Province, and it is the kind of

thing that it good to hear - it is good to know that the long-term planning that

this government undertook, when it took power in 1989, is reaping some results

in spite of the problems in the fishery, in spite of the general economic

difficulties that have been happening throughout the country.

So these are the kinds of things that we want to put forward,

not to blind ourselves or hide away from the difficulties that we face but to

emphasize the positive; to build on our strengths to make sure that the people

of the Province realize that there is hope, that there is a reason to look

forward to the future; to feel that your children and my children will have

opportunity here in Newfoundland and Labrador, a place where the standard of

living and the quality of life is above and beyond many, many places throughout

North America. It is a place where I want to live out my years. I hope not to

have to leave Newfoundland and Labrador, ever, and I hope that my children can

make a good life here, they can make a good living here. Through this kind of

initiative and long-term planning, sometimes at the expense of short term

political gain, which we know we have done at times but for those reasons it is

wise and just for us to follow the governments path that it has been followin