May 26,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLII No. 32

The House met at 9:00 a.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Dicks): Order, please!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have questions for

the Premier. I would like to ask the Premier why he is ending the spring sitting

of the House of Assembly prematurely leaving most of the Order Paper, thirteen

of seventeen bills listed on the Order Paper, unfinished, and abandoning earlier

plans to proceed with electoral boundaries and education reform legislation? Why

has the Premier decided to restrict the agenda for the remainder of the spring

sitting to four simple bills, including an amendment to the judicature act? Is

it because the Premier is impatient to leave the Premier's office?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: I will deal with the part of the question

that at the very least has some level of credibility: Why is the government

proposing that we will probably end the session of the Legislature sometime -

when is it?

MR. ROBERTS: Next week I would assume.

PREMIER WELLS: Next week sometime. It is fairly simple,

Mr. Speaker. We are not yet ready to bring the education reform legislation

before the House. It is fairly simple. I've been corresponding with the churches

just in the last week. I've had telephone conversations with Archbishop

MacDonald. My office has had telephone conversations with other representatives.

They are not in a position to respond. They've asked us for more time to allow

them to get some further legal advice on the issue and we've agreed with that.

What I may have to do is have a public disclosure in somewhat more detail of the

positions that the government has taken because I believe the public has a right

to know. They shouldn't be kept without that knowledge for any longer than is

absolutely necessary.

As to the other matters, no, there is nothing that is of an

urgent nature. Now in terms of time, I remind hon. members that we sit at least

50 per cent longer in point of time than they sat under the former

administration of which the Leader of the Opposition was at that time of course,

one of the leading members.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I have further questions for the

Premier.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I cannot hear the hon. Leader of the Opposition, and I cannot

hear her at this point because of some of her own members; if we could have

order, please.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Does the Premier have an understanding with the Prime

Minister of Canada that the Premier will get a lucrative federal appointment

before the year is out, and is the Premier planning to resign soon in

anticipation of the federal appointment?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I have greater respect for

the taxpayers of this Province than to waste their money giving credibility to

such stupidity.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the Premier why he has abandoned the

taxpayers of their province by aiding and abetting the federal government in

cutting funding services and jobs in this Province? Why is the Premier going

along with the federal government's plans, for example, to close the St. John's

dockyard and the Canadian forestry research services in the Province at a loss

of a total of 1,000 jobs? Is it because the Premier has been courting the Prime

Minister for his own personal gain?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The member cannot impute to another member unworthy motive

such as personal gain, so I will disallow the question.

The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for

the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, related to the Newfoundland

Dockyard.

Is the minister aware that recently the dockyard won a

contract to do a refit on a DFO fisheries patrol boat, the Teleost , and

that the contract was awarded; however, there was one stipulation, that the

Newfoundland Dockyard must provide a written letter from its parent company

ensuring that it will remain open. Is the minister aware of that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

No, I am not aware of it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, a

supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, this is a government that is

aware of very little - very, very little.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, recently the dockyard won a

contract to do work for the federal Department of Fisheries. Federal fisheries

said you could have the contract based upon receiving a letter from Marine

Atlantic stating that you would be open. To this point, management at the

Dockyard have requested such a letter and, as of this morning, they still have

not received it. Can the minister check into the situation to determine why

Marine Atlantic has not provided such a letter to ensure the Dockyard can get

the work it has already been awarded?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The member is fully aware that on Monday morning, the

Premier, the Minister of ITT and myself will be meeting with Mr. Morrison to

discuss the Dockyard in its fullest context. We will deal with all the issues,

and I say to the member that talking about hidden sources and what may or may

not happen - he made a statement publicly that the last group had broken off

negotiations with the Dockyard and there was nobody interested in the Dockyard

if it is to be privatized. Now, the member knows he was found out last night,

despite these hidden sources, that statement is incorrect. So the member needs

to be more responsible. Let this government do its negotiations; this government

will do its negotiations and we do have an agenda to try to keep the Dockyard

open.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me respond by saying, Mr. Speaker, that

the statements I made about the privatization of the Dockyard, I stick to, and

it will pan out within the next couple of weeks, that what I said was correct.

When I talked about what he called `hidden sources', I certainly would not

jeopardize anybody in terms of providing the information. Now, let ask the

minister again: When you are meeting with Mr. Morrison on Monday, will you ask

him why he has not provided a written letter to the Newfoundland Dockyard to

ensure that they would receive the work from another Federal Government

department? Will you ask him why he has not done that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, you can be sure that we will ask

Mr. Morrison anything and everything that deals with the problem at the

Newfoundland Dockyard. This government intends to sit with Mr. Morrison, ask the

questions, and put forward some suggestions. As I keep telling the member, he is

not helping the situation at the Newfoundland Dockyard - I say to the Leader of

the Opposition, the Newfoundland Dockyard - he is not helping the situation by

getting on with innuendo and irresponsible comments. We will do what we can to

keep the Dockyard open, viable and looking for capitalization to ensure that

Newfoundlanders will be employed in the future in the yard. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Finance and Treasury

Board.

The minister's Budget projected economic growth for this

Province this year of 3 per cent, the document said strong economic growth is

expected again in 1995. The Conference Board of Canada is now forecasting

sluggish growth of only 1.7 per cent; I would like to ask the minister, what

implications The Conference Board of Canada projection has for his Budget and if

The Conference Board of Canada prediction turns out to be more accurate than the

minister's, will this not mean considerably less revenue for the Provincial

Government this year than is built into the minister's Budget and, instead of a

current account surplus, which the minister is calling for, possibly a deficit?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I guess, to answer the last part of her question first,

obviously, if the growth projections that we have made are not achieved, then

that will have an effect on the bottom line, and we will have to wait and see,

so the logic is okay. However, I would like to point out, the premise that The

Conference Board of Canada is correct, I believe, is wrong. I believe The

Conference Board of Canada is way off, because I believe they don't have access

to the information that we have; they are basing this, they claim, on the

sluggishness in the resource industries in the Province and we simply don't see

that.

We have been through - the last couple of years in the

fishery, for instance, have been low years; we see an improvement in the landed

value and the employment in the fishery, so we see improvement in the fishery,

generally. We also see improvement in the iron ore, the forestry industry and so

on during this year. We see this year being a year that has a high level of

employment and a high level of investment in terms of the Hibernia project, so

we see this year far more positively than does The Conference Board of Canada.

The other institutions which have done their analyses as well, also see it in a

far more optimistic view than does The Conference Board of Canada. So I believe

that The Conference Board simply is dead wrong about this year.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Employment and Labour

Relations.

I ask the minister, has he received any complaints or

concerns regarding the hiring practices or the importation of workers at the

Hibernia project?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the member is fully

aware that the Hibernia project is a national project. The dollars that were put

forward in the Hibernia project have come from many sources. I think the last

figures, and I stand to be corrected, were somewhere in the vicinity - I know I

am not very far out when I say that about 92 per cent of the workforce at Bull

Arm are Newfoundlanders, and we are very proud of it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Does the minister know, or is the minister at all concerned

that the same Calgary company, Kenonic Controls, the company that caused the

labour dispute at the Hibernia site a few months ago, is now again advertising

for labour to come to the Hibernia site, labour which exists in this Province

here today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am.

As the member knows, the tenders that go out from the

Hibernia project, go out nationally, and if a Calgary-based company should win a

tender, or a Montreal, Toronto, or a St. John's company, they have a right to

choose their supervisors, as any company would on any tender. They must conform

to the building trades agreement between HMDC and the building trades, by

hiring, of course, those individuals who are unionized people. Now, their

supervisors, of course, are there at their own discretion.

When any company bids a job, surely heavens they have a right

to put supervisors in place, and if they put those supervisors in place who are

not competent, then they always run the risk of losing money on that particular

tender. We cannot take out of the hands of any company who wins a tender, who is

a viable company and is seen by the managers at Hibernia as being competent -

obviously, they wouldn't be there if they were not - and this government cannot

dictate to companies to say who they should, and who they should not, hire as

supervisors.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I remind the minister that I am not talking about

supervisors. We are all aware of that. This problem was brought to the

minister's attention before, about people coming to the Hibernia project and not

doing supervisory work but doing hands-on work. And once again the ad appears in

a paper advertising in Alberta looking for pump mechanics, millwrights,

electricians, Mr. Speaker. Our union halls around Newfoundland are full of those

people. Our people have worked all over the world doing exactly this type of

work. So I call on the minister to be responsible and make sure our own

Newfoundlanders get our own work right here in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: The member knows only full well that the

building trades comprise fifteen huge unions involved in both civil and

mechanical trades - the business agents, the shop stewards out there are not

sitting on their hands. Any time that any company brings in labour that can be

supplied in this Province is totally unacceptable to the building trades. We

have -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)?

MR. MURPHY: If the member is going to ask a question - I

didn't interrupt him. Give me the courtesy of answering. What the member should

realize is that we have right now two people on staff who investigate all

complaints from the Newfoundland public. The member knows that there are about

4,200 Newfoundlanders on site now and there are about 42,000 Newfoundlanders who

would like to be on site. It is just impossible to accommodate all those people

who want to go to the Hibernia site. We are working along with both union and

management to ensure that the job site agreement is in place and will continue

in place, and we are there to ensure that qualified Newfoundlanders will have

first opportunity at the job.

There are 4,549 on site right now, Newfoundlanders. There may

be a single case here and a single case there. We are addressing that. That

always happens in a site of that size and magnitude.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have

a question for the Minister of Natural Resources pertaining to the reactivation

efforts of St. Lawrence fluorspar mines. Can the minister update the House as to

what the status of that reactivation situation is right now? Is there someone in

there looking at the scene, the site, doing an analysis? Could the minister

inform us what progress if any has been made?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to do

that. A few months ago we gave an option to the St. Lawrence property to a

company based in Saskatchewan but led by a former Newfoundlander. We gave that

option to extend until next April 30, 1996. Since we issued the option to him he

has moved into St. Lawrence, he has occupied the offices. As of April 1, the end

of the fiscal year, March 31, as of April 1 he took over covering all expenses

at the site to maintain the properties there until he completes his analysis. I

know he is doing a thorough evaluation of every aspect of the underground mining

operations that went on in St. Lawrence previously and looking at how he would

best bring it back into operation in the future.

The other major aspect is looking at the markets and I know

that he has been doing a significant international marketing effort to identify

companies that would be interested in buying the product. He has made some good

contacts there. Over the next few months I hope he has success in putting a good

package together. Right now the markets for fluorspar seem to be on a slight

improvement trend over what they were a couple of years ago when we had the

close down. I'm positive and optimistic that something can come out of this in

the next year.

MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House

Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary for the minister. In the analysis that the company is doing, is it

looking at processing of some form, utilizing the processing mill that was put

there by Minworth, not just mining the fluorspar in raw form and shipping it

out? Will there be processing done? Is the intent to do processing in that

processing mill at St. Lawrence?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The main reason of course

to maintain the mill is so that the ore that is mined would be concentrated and

refined to as high a grade as possible and to basically be a final product that

can go to companies like Alcan and Dupont and others that would normally use

fluorspar in their processing operations. So yes, that is certainly my

understanding. They would take it to as much processing as they can to

concentrate and make a very pure fluorspar concentrate.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for

the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Has your department received

any complaints regarding the 1995 tax assessments, especially in light of the

fact of the promise by yourself of an up-to-date more efficient computerized

system?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes, I suppose.

Every year we receive a number of complaints from municipalities in regard to

the assessments, early assessments, late assessments, no assessments at all.

That happens almost on a daily basis, so the answer is yes, we have.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern, a supplementary.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a copy of a letter to the assessment division from the

Town of Logy Bay - Middle Cove - Outer Cove complaining of discrepancies in the

overall assessment, and many questions which need answers. The letter talks

about financial burden to the towns, extra work for staff, late delivery of

assessment to the town, which forced the town to borrow. The assessment roll was

delivered April 24 with a deadline date of April 28 to be forwarded to the

taxpayers. When will Municipal and Provincial Affairs get

an act together with

regard to assessments, which has been promised for years?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, just three weeks ago the

Federation of Municipalities made a presentation to Cabinet, and one of their

recommendations was to privatize, or do away with the assessment division of

Municipal and Provincial Affairs. That, of course, will cause serious problems

for the community referred to by the hon. member.

If we allowed a small community in the Province to do its own

assessment, the cost of actually doing that assessment in that particular case,

in that particular community, would cost that particular community anywhere from

five to ten times the amount of money they are paying to the department.

As the hon. member realizes, because he sat on council, the

reason we have a division, and the assessment that we are doing, the cost that

we are charging municipalities around the Province, is spread out between the

larger cities and towns and the smaller ones, which makes it a more equitable

cost to at least the smaller communities in the Province.

Mr. Speaker, I will say to you quite honestly that that whole

question of the assessment division in my department is being reviewed. I will

be meeting on next Thursday with the hon. Minister of Finance to discuss

problems that we are having in the assessment division, and those problems have

been relevant, I suppose, and predominant in the assessment division long before

1989 when I was elected. In fact, they started back maybe ten to fifteen years

ago.

I will admit to the member that there are problems; there is

no two ways about it. I am having problems in the division, and I think it comes

down to the fact that maybe we should look at the whole assessment division, and

maybe after talking to the federation and debating what we can do, I may be able

to stand in the House some time in the future and say the problem is solved,

maybe to the extent that the community you are talking about can do their own

assessment. Then, Mr. Speaker, God help them when it comes to paying for the

cost of that assessment.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern, a final supplementary.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

With respect to the cost to the towns, the towns now across

the Province have to pay thousands of dollars each year for basically a copy of

a previous assessment each year.

The Town of Logy Bay - Middle Cove - Outer Cove supplied a

list of over sixty concerns or questions on specific properties themselves. They

are expecting a flood of appeals. Once the errors are corrected and appeals are

heard, Council is requesting a new 1995 assessment roll. Will the minister

commit to investigate and address the concerns of the town and to supply a new,

proper, and more accurate assessment roll for 1995?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I will do whatever I can to

accommodate the hon. member's request and the town's request. I cannot stand

here and say that I am going to do this. I have to go back and ask the people in

my division what happened and what exactly the story is on that. I am not saying

that the hon. member is not putting his facts to the table correctly, but I will

certainly look into it and do whatever I can to accommodate the town, and I

guess the member's request. I have no problems with that.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to

direct a question to the Minister of Health.

I was contacted by a relative of a person who resides in

Chancellor Park. Now that person there has exhausted all savings. The minister

indicated in this House on Wednesday that such a person would not be eligible

for funding under the enriched needs program because Chancellor Park is one of

about seventy personal care homes in the Province.

The minister said, and I quote from Hansard: We have about

sixty-nine, seventy, or seventy-one personal care homes in the Province.

Chancellor Park is one of these homes. We do not, as a government, by policy,

provide enriched needs to people living in personal care homes. I say to the

minister, Chancellor Park is not a personal care home. This was acknowledged by

your department over one year ago. In fact, it was acknowledged as an

independent or a congregate unit.

Now this individual is placed along with others at the top of

a waiting list for admission to nursing homes here in this city. I ask the

minister, why are these people not eligible for enriched needs program the same

as others out in the community? It will cost government 50 per cent less to

provide it to people in Chancellor Park as opposed to out in an apartment or in

their own home in the community.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. member may, by his definition, determine that that

facility known as Chancellor Park is not a personal care home but in terms of

licensure by the Wila Board, which comes under the Department of Health and

handles the licensing for the government, it is a personal care home. Congregate

housing is simply another form of a personal care home. So the hon. member

should understand that if he doesn't and if he does understand it he should

acknowledge that he understands it and accept it for what truth is in it.

Now as far as providing enriched needs into personal care

homes, I have already stated that it never was and it is not governments policy

to put enriched needs into personal care homes on a continuing basis. There may

be a few instances where, over time, we have delivered enriched needs on an

emergency or temporary basis to personal care homes but it is not governments

policy to do that as a matter of course and as a matter of policy.

In terms of the expenditure that he alludes to as being so

much cheaper to do it in that particular facility as opposed to in the

community, I can only say without getting into an elaborate and long answer -

which I am sure nobody wants at this point - that he is totally inaccurate and

totally incorrect. I would also make to him the offer that if he wishes to come

to my office and sit down I will give him the facts and figures relative to the

cost of an enriched needs on any basis that he wants to discuss it. The

information is available through my office. The information is clear and if he

wants it he can come and get it. Then when he asks a question he can be factual

in the assumptions and the premises on which he bases his question.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do have the cost of providing enriched needs and for

nursing homes cost too in the Province for each particular facility, I say to

the minister. I ask the minister to go back to his department in a letter in

March of 1994 in which he classified that and it stated as not being in the

personal care home category.

Now I want to ask the minister another question, in 1986 the

Nycum Study showed that there is a far higher instance of elderly people in the

Clarenville area then anywhere else in this Province. Now the study recommended,

in 1986, another fifty beds for the Clarenville area in addition to the fifteen

long term beds that are at the GB Cross Hospital there. Now this area was high

on the priority list of government for a number of years and there are still no

beds. Now I ask the minister, if Irene Baird of IMB Associates presented a

report to the hospital board over a week ago in Clarenville that is confirming

and will the minister confirm that this report calls for a fifty bed chronic

care facility in the Clarenville area?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Clarenville Hospital Board, some time last year, asked

for a long term care study to be done in their region. Last fall after that had

commenced and after I moved into the department, I asked them to have that

report or that analysis expanded to include the whole region from the Burin

Peninsula to Bonavista. I done that on the premise and on the basis that the new

regional board would cover that geographic area in the Province. All of the

acute care and long term care needs in that area would become the

responsibility, in the first instance, in terms of developing policy and looking

at needs of that new board and so that report has been done. The IMB Associates

Incorporated have delivered their report to me, they have delivered a copy to

the Clarenville, the Bonavista and the Burin Peninsula Health Care Boards and

they have also put it in the hands of the new chair of the new regional board

and at what time we have done our analysis on it and we deem it to be

appropriate we will - if it is appropriate - release it for public consumption

and information. At this point we have not reviewed it and I have not released

it to the public so I am not prepared to make it available to the hon. member

yet.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This report I understand also indicates that there are more

then 2,100 people in that area over sixty-five years of age and the need is

there. Now there are also more than sixty people from the Clarenville area

residing in homes in St. John's who want to be near their families. I ask the

minister, will the minister ensure that future nursing home beds are provided in

areas where there is a definite need and where those needing care can be close

to their families and loved ones?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, we will ensure that to the

greatest extent possible, that long-term care beds will be made available where

they are needed and to the closest proximity that we can to the area in which

these people are coming from. I will also point out to the hon. member that, in

that particular area we have just recently developed the Golden Heights Manor in

Bonavista, there are ten beds there that are not occupied; we have a project for

redevelopment underway at the Blue Crest Interfaith Home in Grand Bank to

provide extra beds. We have put a fantastic facility in St. Lawrence, a new

health care centre there with some long-term care beds that are not all

occupied, and it is our responsibility to ensure that the beds that are

presently in the system are used appropriately and properly before we commence

adding additional beds to the system; but we are not unmindful of the need for

long-term beds and we will do it as is needed and as is appropriate, with all

due care and consideration given to where the residents are coming from.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

On behalf of hon. members, I would like to welcome to the

House of Assembly, twelve ABE Skills For Success students with their instructor,

Donna Adams.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Report of the

exceptions to the Public Tender Act, for March, 1995 and April, 1995.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the

Annual Report of the Advisory Council on the Economy for the period, from April

1, 1993 to March 31, 1994.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again I stand to present a petition on the proposed changes

to the electoral boundaries.

Today, I present the last 424 names in my possession,

bringing the total signatures presented to well over 1,000 names. I present all

the names because today, is probably one of the last opportunities to do so. The

government has indicated that the House will soon take its summer recess

without, apart from my petition campaign, dealing with the electoral boundaries

issue.

Mr. Speaker, it is too early to tell if the voters of Green

Bay who want their district to remain united have had a victory in this matter.

Certainly the voters of Central Newfoundland, who will soon be going to the

polls in a by-election, will not have had their future boundaries clarified;

however, Mr. Speaker, this House will soon be closing early in an anticipated

atmosphere of change.

One of the few bills we will be passing before our recess is

a bill to create an additional Supreme Court opening; one has to wonder if the

Premier's much talked about, the judicial appointment, is about to happen.

Indeed, the Premier seemed to smile in this House yesterday, a rare enough

event, to lead one to speculate that he may soon be relieved of the burdens of

office.

Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party, facing the

by-election are afraid of the negative publicity from Question Period. Whatever

the case, Mr. Speaker, the electoral boundaries issue is put off until the fall

if not forever. I thank the people of Green Bay for asking me to present their

concerns on this matter, in this Assembly during this short, spring session.

Mr. Speaker, I have occupied a political office here in

Confederation Building for twenty-one years; I have participated in many

elections and by-elections and was very active in two successful leadership

campaigns. As the Liberals will probably find out, pretty soon, leadership

campaigns can be exciting but they are no comparison to meeting your political

foes in a real election. Mr. Speaker, I wish you and my colleagues in this

House, a very pleasant summer and no doubt, I will see some of you on the battle

lines in the electoral District of Grand Falls.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The

Capes.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to present a petition on behalf of my people

from my district in the communities of Trepassey, St. Shotts, Portugal Cove

South and Biscay Bay.

The prayer of the petition reads as follows: To the hon.

House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland in parliament assembled:

The petition of the undersigned residents of the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador ask for the House of Assembly to accept the following

prayer:

`We, the undersigned, do hereby request the Minister of

Employment and Labour Relations to provide funding to generate desperately

needed employment in our communities.

Once again, we stand and bring forth a petition from people

who are looking for some type of employment in communities, especially in rural

Newfoundland. I ask the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations to accept

this petition today on behalf of those people and to bring forward, in whatever

way possible, some funding to alleviate the desperate situation that people in

my district, and I am sure, many districts of the Province, find themselves in.

For the past number of years we have succumbed to the

problems brought upon us by the closedown of the most important industry in our

Province, and indeed, the most important industry in the district of St. Mary's

- The Capes, that is, the fishing industry.

Many people who were involved directly in that industry have

been successful in qualifying for NCARP and then the TAGS program, and those

people had some compensation while they worked through the problems associated

with the closedown of the fishery. At the same time, many people in the district

and, indeed, in all those communities indirectly involved in the fishing

industry, the people who worked in the restaurants, in the stores, on the

wharves, the people who were babysitting in the communities, and all those

people who are unemployed for reasons we may not understand, cannot now find any

source of employment, because the indirect jobs afforded through the fishery in

those communities are not there anymore.

That is why those people are now looking to government,

looking wherever they can, hopefully, for some sort of program. We are not

looking for some short-term assistance. Those people would like to have access

to a program that would offer some training, some work experience, not just

something that would allow them to qualify for unemployment insurance; that is

not what people are looking for. They are looking for an opportunity to further

their skills.

The problem, Mr. Speaker, in a lot of cases that I deal with

on a daily basis, is that people on the TAGS program or some other type of

federal or provincial assistance, are allowed to avail of training programs;

whereas other people, who through no fault of their own, have no extra funds, or

do not qualify for any of those programs because they are not on TAGS or some

other type of assistance, cannot get into training.

I had a group in to see me a couple of weeks ago, twelve

people from a community in my district, who wanted to do some type of training,

but because they are not on the TAGS program, or receiving some type of help

from HRD, they cannot get into those training programs. So, really, they are

being dealt a double blow in that they have no compensation for the loss of the

jobs they had through being indirectly involved in the fishing industry and are

unable to partake in the training programs.

I think it is a very serious situation, Mr. Speaker, and I

bring forward the concerns of those people today to the House and hope that the

minister, in his wisdom, will address those concerns, and hopefully alleviate

some of the despair that those people are experiencing at the present time.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I have just a few comments on what the hon. member had to

say. First of all, he is very much aware of the 50/50 arrangement we have just

negotiated with the Federal Government, for a total of $20 million. We realize

that amount of money is not - let me say, we could use more. We have just

finished negotiating and I have sent every member a package on that particular

program. There are other programs we are currently negotiating, the early

retirement for fishers and the processors. We are also very much involved in

negotiations with HRDC and CEC on the availability - and I say to the member, he

should pay attention to this one, because I think the Green program that is out

there now, and CEC, are now accepting and taking proposals from communities and

people in communities.

The real value and advantage of the Green program to the

member's community, or any other community, is through ensuring that at the end

of the program, it leaves some real jobs. I think what the member needs to

understand is that it makes it easier for this government to negotiate with our

federal counterparts when we can say that those people who were in the fishery

and cannot return to it for some period of time - we don't know how long that it

is - but that, at the end of some of these programs, there are some real jobs.

So it is up to their imagination. As the Premier has been

saying time and time again at different functions, it is now time for the

private sector to put their imagination to work and say: Listen, these are the

kinds of ideas that we feel are advantageous for long-term employment throughout

the Province.

I say to the member, he should pay attention to that specific

program. There is some $290 million in it. It all depends on how well we do our

homework, and I encourage him and people in his community to take advantage of

that particular program. There are other programs that we are negotiating with

our federal counterparts. As a matter of fact, this time next week we have a

meeting with Mr. Axworthy to discuss some other issues. Let me say to the

member, he can be assured that this government is very cognizant, very aware of

the problem in rural Newfoundland, and we are doing everything we can with our

federal counterparts to address those problems. Hopefully, as we go along, we

will have some more meaningful and productive programs to identify and

collectively say to the populace throughout Labrador and throughout the Island

portion of the Province: Look, take advantage of this.

My department would be more than happy to liaison with any

group out there, assist them, help them with applications. The Minister of ITT

has people to assist and help. And I hope it is not falling on deaf ears. At any

time, as the member knows, we would be more than happy to talk to any member

about circumstances and/or situations in their districts. Because, what the real

agenda is, is to help Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words to that

petition, if I may, please.

MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry?

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, there are so many people today

wrapped up in that Bill 20, they are beginning to.... I want to -

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No - the Speaker - no reflection on anyone in

the House, I say to the Government House Leader. There are so many huddles

around here. You have the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation going

around with Bill No. 20 in his hand talking to all his colleagues about it.

You've got meetings on the go everywhere. There he is up again, look, checking

with someone else with Bill No. 20 in his hand, drumming up all the support he

can.

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Well, you know how important three votes are,

I hope.

Mr. Speaker, I want to support the petition presented by my

colleague, the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: `Chuck' hasn't been in since the bill was

introduced so he is ahead of the game.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: And `Beaton' is back.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I want to support the petition presented

by my colleague and friend, the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes, signed by

people of Portugal Cove South, St. Shotts, Biscay Bay and Trepassey, an area of

this Province that is very familiar to me, as it is, I am sure, to the Member

for Twillingate. Like him, I know full well that these are dedicated, committed

and hard-working individuals who have for a lifetime been involved in the

fishery of this Province, both inshore, middle-distance, I guess, and offshore.

People from these areas - there was no other employment in

the area except the fish plant in Trepassey for many years. As we all know, not

only has the fisheries dried up, but I believe the option of a future fisheries

in Trepassey is in very big trouble. Because, as we all know, just recently the

area sold their fish plant to a group of Americans who are now shipping all the

plant, all the contents and everything in it, to some part of South America. So

I believe that the opportunities, if the fishery ever returns, for the same type

of a fishery in Trepassey may be somewhat restricted, but these people are

asking that this government do something to create employment in that area.

Now, I listened to the Minister of Employment and Labour

Relations and his answers. I wrote down his answers to the people of St. Shotts,

Portugal Cove, Biscay Bay and Trepassey. His answers were a 50/50 federal

agreement. Now how long is that going to give employment to the people up there,

because there are very few working? Early retirement, there are some, I am sure,

who will qualify for that.

He mentioned co-operation between HRDC and CEC, but he felt

that the best program was the Green program. Then he went on to say that people

now have to use their imaginations. Well, I am sure the people of that area are

quite capable of using their imaginations. Let them be restricted by their

thinking, as he is saying, or don't be restricted by your thinking; let your

imagination fly. But I say to the minister, when they do that, as he says the

Premier says so often now, people have to use their imagination, so don't be

limited in your thinking. Let your imagination fly, and at the end of the day

what jobs are you going to put in this humble little Province? What jobs are you

going to put in the barrens of Peter's River or Portugal Cove South?

There are jewellery box factories, I believe, in Trepassey. I

happened to be up there Easter, and for someone who was born and raised in

Trepassey and don't get back as often as I would like - I don't have any family

left there now, and I don't get back as often as I like - but to go up there and

drive around, and to see the houses with the doors and the windows barred up.

Many houses over where I was born and lived, on Daniel's Point, where you all

get that great water -

AN HON. MEMBER: Great water?

MR. TOBIN: Yes, that cold water that people have in their

office comes from Daniel's Point, Collins Pond, my grandmother's property, I say

to members opposite, but apart from that to see the houses over there, I would

say Daniel's Point, which is now a part of Trepassey, but fifteen years ago

there were probably fifty or sixty houses over there; I would not say there are

fifteen over there today that are not barred up, and the Minister of Fisheries

knows - or who should be still the Minister of Fisheries - the Member for

Twillingate knows it well.

To see that, and to hear those people in here today, through

a petition, asking government to do something, stirs some emotion in me because

these are hard-working, dedicated, committed individuals who knew nothing for a

lifetime but hard work.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has expired.

MR. TOBIN: In conclusion, I would encourage the minister

and the government to take the pleas of these people from St. Mary's - The Capes

in the petition that was presented very seriously, and try to do something for

them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, before we go on to the Orders

of the Day as such, there is a momentous event that I have been asked to bring

to the attention of the House, and I suspect my friend from Grand Bank would

concur.

We all know Scott Chafe from VOCM, who has covered the

Legislature probably for a longer period than any of the men or women in the

press gallery these days. We all know him with his red jacket and his big VOCM

sticker on it, and we all respect his integrity and his ability. A number of his

colleagues, perhaps in a friendly sense, and perhaps with a little touch of

envy, have asked me to bring to the attention of the House that Scott is not

here today because he is home counting the fifty pink flamingos that someone has

put on his lawn. Apparently this is his fiftieth birthday, and I know that

members on both sides - we don't normally do this, but Scott is somebody that I

think we all like and respect, and we all work with him and would want to

perhaps ask -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, he is younger than me. He is also

smarter than me.

MR. TOBIN: Now, don't be nasty.

MR. ROBERTS: I am not being nasty. I would say to my

friend from Burin - Placentia West that I am reminded of an exchange between two

members in the House of Commons in England once, Winston Churchill and an

unnamed person. The member on the other side said to Churchill, `The Right

Honourable Gentleman is drunk.' Churchill came back and said, `Mr. Speaker,

perhaps I am, but the hon. gentleman opposite is dumb, and the difference is I

will be sober in the morning.'

Anyway, I was going to suggest that perhaps the Clerk would

be good enough, on behalf of us all, to send a note of either congratulations or

condolences to Mr. Chafe on his fiftieth birthday.

With that said, Mr. Speaker, could we first of all call

Motions

4 and 5 that is to first readings and then we will go into

committee stage to deal with the advance health care directive and then we will

come back to the Budget Debate and conclude that.

Thank you, Sir.

MR. SPEAKER: It has been moved and seconded that the hon.

Minister's of Finance and Treasury Board and the Government House Leader shall

have leave to introduce bills - rather, first to the Minister of Finance to move

that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain

resolutions relating to the guaranteeing of certain loans under the local -

MR. ROBERTS: Four and five.

MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry, I understood the Government

House Leader had said three and four, yes.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Architects Act, The

Chartered Accountants Act, The Dieticians Act, The Embalmers And Funeral

Directors Act, The Engineers And Geoscientists Act, The Land Surveyors Act,

1991, The Private Investigation And Security Services Act And The Psychologists

Act," carried. (Bill No. 22)

Motion, the hon. Government House Leader to introduce a bill,

"An Act To Amend The Elections Act, 1991," carried. (Bill No. 23)

On motion, Bill Nos. 22 and 23 read a first time, ordered

read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, would you be good enough please

to put the House in Committee of the Whole to deal with Bill No. 1 which is the

advance health care directives?

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of

the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of the Whole

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

Bill No. 1,

An Act Respecting Advance Health Care Directives.

A bill, "An Act Respecting Advance Health Care Directives And

The Appointment Of Substitute Health Care Decision Makers." (Bill No. 1)

Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill

without amendment, carried.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, would you please rise the

committee?

Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise, report progress

and ask leave to sit again.

MR. SPEAKER (Dicks): The hon. the Member for Trinity -

Bay de Verde.

MR. L. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have

considered the matters to it referred and has directed me to report Bill No. 1

carried without amendments.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of Whole

reports that it has considered the matters to it referred and have directed him

to report Bill No. 1 passed without amendment. When shall the report be

received?

MR. ROBERTS: Now.

MR. SPEAKER: Now.

When shall the said bill be read a third time?

MR. ROBERTS: Now, by leave.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting Advance Health Care

Directives And The Appointment Of Substitute Health Care Decision Makers," read

a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, would you please call Motion

No. 1 which is the Budget debate. I am not sure I remember who adjourned the

debate but one of my friends opposite -

AN HON. MEMBER: The Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. ROBERTS: My friend for Mount Pearl. He is not here. I

assume another member will (inaudible) -

MR. W. MATTHEWS: By leave.

MR. ROBERTS: I would say if my friend for Grand Bank

spoke by leave that would add - I won't say that, Mr. Speaker. Would you be good

enough to call the Budget

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Burin - Placentia West!

MR. ROBERTS: No, I would have even less reason to say it

if it is my friend for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: I'm reminded of the story of the lawyer who

moved from St. John's to Corner Brook, thereby raising the intellectual level of

both communities. Your Honour, would you please call - there are three lawyers

from Corner Brook sitting in this House at present, Mr. Speaker. Would you be

good enough to call the Budget, please?

MR. SPEAKER: Motion No. 1, the Budget debate.

The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased today to

stand and say a few words on a non-confidence motion put forward by the hon. the

Leader of the Opposition on Thursday May 18, I say to the Minister of Tourism,

Culture and Recreation, that week that you weren't in the House. I don't think

you were here from Monday to Friday that week, I say to the minister, so it is

hard to know what happens when you are not here.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition in putting forward her

non-confidence motion in this government was expressing the concern of thousands

of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, I say to the members of the House. With the

loss of trust, yes indeed, the loss of confidence in the government opposite. I

fully support the non-confidence motion because of the hoodwinking that this

government has given the people of this Province since 1989 with the promise of

real change.

We remember the posters, signs and placards that were across

this Province that talked about real change. Some change, I say to the members

opposite. There has been a real change, yes, I say to the Minister of Tourism,

Culture and Recreation, there has definitely been a real change. Whether that

change has been good or bad for the Province I guess time will tell. One of the

comments that the Premier said so often during that campaign was the fact of

bringing every mother's son home. That was going to be part of his real change.

He was going to bring every mother's son home. The words went across this

Province. Every mother's son will be coming home. That was part of the real

change, I say to the members opposite.

The track record of real change in this Province is very

dismal, I say, when we look at the latest stats, we look back at bringing every

mother's son home. In the past six years - and I will go through each year, just

to make sure that we have the correct numbers. I say I have put my numbers

together based on statistics from Stats Canada.

In 1989 we had a net loss in this Province of 2,606 people.

That is in 1989, the first year of this government. In 1990 we had a net loss of

1,137 people out of this Province, thanks to the real change put forward by the

members opposite. In 1991 we had a total loss of 1,636 people, thanks to the

real change put forward by the members opposite. In 1992 alone we had a real

change when we had a total loss of 3,626 people from this Province, part of the

real change put forward by this government in 1989. In 1993 the real change

continued into the 1990s with a total loss of 3,692 people in 1993. The `real

change' continued into 1994 when, according to Stats Canada reports, up until

September of 1994, we had a total loss of 5,834 people. So the six years of

`real change' brought about a net loss in this Province of 18,531 people. Mr.

Speaker, it leaves a lot to say about bringing every mother's son home, when the

mothers themselves have had to leave this Province.

I say, the `real change' that has been brought in by the six

years of this government, has no doubt made the new Leader of the Opposition

stand and bring forward a non-confidence motion in this government. A `real

change' of almost 20,000 people less - 18,531 people in six years have left this

Province. And I say, Mr. Speaker, we talk about real change, we talk about real

concerns that we tried to bring forward on this side of the House on behalf of

the people of the Province, real concerns about the future.

This government has been carrying out a very subtle

resettlement program over the past years, and I look back to the 1960s when we

had the resettlement program back then. At the present time I am reading a book

by Harold Horwood, called Joey , which talks about parts of the

resettlement program of the 1960s, but I have to say, Mr. Speaker, in mentioning

the resettlement program of Joey Smallwood, that he had a different approach.

Mr. Smallwood came in the front door and told the people that he wanted them to

move; he told the people that they had to move and gave them the opportunity to

move. He gave them something, whatever it may be, to move.

Well, I didn't agree with the resettlement program of the

1960s, Mr. Speaker, and I definitely don't agree with it in the 1990s, but I

have to agree that Mr. Smallwood had a better approach than Mr. Wells and this

government have. Mr. Smallwood came in the front door and told the people up

front what he planned to do and they accepted it or didn't accept it, but the

people of the Province have no choice in what this government is doing now; they

have no choice as to whether they should resettle or not because with the policy

of this government, living in rural Newfoundland is becoming harder and harder,

and the people have no choice but to think about resettlement. And as we can see

for the past sixteen years, with a net loss of 18,531 people in this Province,

we talk about real change; yes, Mr. Speaker, real change -

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: - but it is real resettlement change, I say,

that this government has been doing over the past number of years; and I say to

the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, just stay calm; I will get

to you later - I am only a few minutes into my speech.

We talked about a balanced Budget, Mr. Speaker, everybody was

kind of pleased with the fact that the government stood up and presented a

balanced Budget, but at whose expense do we present a balanced Budget? Do we

present it at the expense of the thousands of people in this Province who have

been forced to now rely on social assistance? Are these the people at whose

expense they have a balanced Budget in this Province? There are people in my

district who have never before in their lives had to resort to social assistance

until the past couple of years. So, yes, we present a balanced Budget at those

people's expense.

Do we present a balanced Budget on the thousands of people in

this Province, who have been added to the UI lines, through layoffs, through

cutbacks, through the devastation that this government has inflicted on the

people of this Province through their policies? Is that how the balanced Budget

comes, at the expense of thousands of people who have lost their jobs over the

past couple of years? How about the thousands who have given up looking for work

in this Province? People have given up, they have lost hope in this government.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a balanced Budget, at the

expense of the thousands of people who have given up any hope in this

government, have given up any hope of a chance of finding some work again, Mr.

Speaker. How about the hundreds of people in this Province who are waiting on

hospital beds because of the cutbacks in health care of this government? Is that

how we have a balanced Budget, are they paying for the balanced Budget, Mr.

Speaker? The hundreds of elderly people in this Province who are looking for

hospital beds, are they the people -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I say to the minister, by the time I am

finished, some of you may want to come over here, but I say, just stay calm. Mr.

Speaker, the massive cuts - yes, I say, Mr. Speaker, we have a balanced Budget,

but is it at the expense of the youth of this Province, who have faced massive

cuts in education and the loss of job opportunities and the loss of a chance to

make something of themselves? Are they who balanced the Budget, the youths, the

elderly, the unemployed, the people on social assistance? Are they who brought

us a balanced Budget, Mr. Speaker?

Is that the way we present a balanced Budget? I say the

government should be more responsible to the people who elected them, and I

bring forward the concerns of those people, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation that

there is a concern in this Province now. You can sit back and relax but there

are many people in this Province who cannot sit back and relax, Mr. Speaker. We

sit down and look at the positive things in this Province over the past couple

of years but members opposite continue to lambaste the former Tory government

and the former Tory government in Ottawa.

I say to members opposite that as we look around this

Province now we look at the few positive things that are happening. We look at

the Hibernia project that is creating thousands of jobs. Is that because of

anything this government did over the past six years? No, Mr. Speaker, it is

because of the former Tory government and John Crosbie in Ottawa that we have

the Hibernia project in this Province. The only silver lining in a dark cloud

that is happening in this Province now is because of the former Tory government.

It is not because of the actions or policies of this government, but indeed the

former Tory government in Ottawa. That is the only reason Hibernia is alive and

well today.

We look at the TAGS program and the ENCARP program that have

come down. There are some problems with them, Mr. Speaker. We have the Hibernia

project and we have the TAGS program that has come down because of the former

Tory government and brought forward under John Crosbie, who saw the devastation

that was happening in our fisheries, who saw the problems that were being

experienced, and saw the people who would be affected by the closedown, and

brought forward those programs. Because of the TAGS program, people at least

have a few years to try to plan a future or at least prepare for a different

type of fishery, and that is because of the former Tory government I say, Mr.

Speaker.

The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation has left

now. He stands in the House and talks about the road work in this Province. Take

away the Roads for Rail agreement that was brought in by the former Tory

government and John Crosbie, and the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation would have very little to spend on roads in this Province. You

could spend on a good weekend what this government is spending on roads in this

Province, when you take away the federal agreement that was signed by John

Crosbie and the former Tory government.

Only for those people and only for that government we

wouldn't have the Hibernia project, we wouldn't have the TAGS program and we

wouldn't have the Roads for Rail agreement, just to mention a few. How can we

have confidence in this government when there is no vision, there is no plan,

and there is no future for this government?

MR. DUMARESQUE: You're gone.

MR. MANNING: No, I am not gone, I say to the member. I

will be here longer than you are. I have no worry about being gone.

And along with all those things that government has played a

part in destroying in this Province -

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible), mark my words.

MR. MANNING: I say to the Member for Eagle River, you

knew a lot about my area when you brought the hon. the Member for St. John's

West down. Come down now. If you wanted to have a meeting of the Liberals down

there now you would have to have it in a phone booth, I say to the member.

MR. DUMARESQUE: You never know. I get calls from them

down there all the time.

MR. MANNING: I know one less he is getting these days, a

convert to the PC fold from an old Tory stronghold, I say, Mr. Speaker.

This government, along with destroying the opportunities for

people to find work in this Province, along with destroying the few things that

were looking positive, this government has destroyed something else, they have

destroyed the sense of hope. You go around those communities and talk to people

who have been without work for years - not months anymore, now it is getting

into years - who have been without work for years, and they have no sense of

hope. This government has destroyed their sense of hope. There is no hope for

the future.

It is sad to say that when you drive around rural

Newfoundland now and go back to my district of St. Mary's - The Capes and look

at people who have been distraught because of the fishery crisis, you look for

some type of positive attitude, but they cannot look to this government. You, on

that side of the House, should be ashamed of yourselves for what you have done

to this Province over the past six years.

I say to the Member for Eagle River that you should be

ashamed to be standing up supporting the policies of this government for what

they are doing to rural Newfoundland when you come from a rural area like

Labrador.

I had an opportunity to visit Labrador a couple of times over

the past six months, and I say to the Member for Eagle River, I was in his

district and they are not all too friendly with the Member for Eagle River.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I say to the minister of safety on our

highways, you get up and, as they would say at home, you go bragging about the

money you are spending on the roads in this Province, and without the Roads for

Rail Agreement, what you are spending, you would spend on a good weekend, thanks

to John Crosbie, I say to the Member for Port de Grave.

To get back to my few comments on how this government has

performed over the past six years, I would say, very poorly, in my estimation,

and I am sure, in the estimation of many people in this Province, for the simple

fact that they have destroyed a feeling of hope. It is not easy to understand

why a government would do that. Then we have to ask ourselves - and maybe some

members opposite will ask: Well, how do you stand up in the House and say that

this government has destroyed the feeling of hope or the feeling of desire in

this Province? It is very simple when you look over there and you look at some

of the things this government has been a part of, whether it is with the Federal

Government, or on their own standing as a Provincial Government.

Look at the municipalities in this Province. I say to the

Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, in all fairness, that there has

been a fair amount of downloading, even though not from his department, from the

Department of Works, Services and Transportation and other departments in

government, a sense of downloading on municipalities in this Province,

municipalities that have been struggling for years, that are finding it very

difficult now under the present fisheries crisis to have a tax base in their

communities. And the downloading that is continuing from the different

departments of government on to these municipalities is making it very difficult

even to find people who even want to serve on councils anymore, who want to be

part of the decision-making process anymore due to the problems in trying to

collect taxes because of the economic situation.

I have several problems in my own district that I have

addressed to the minister, and we are trying to work some things out. These are

happening because municipalities just don't have the tax base anymore, the tax

structure in place, to try to keep supplying the street lights and the garbage

collection, the roads, the water, whatever the case may be. It is very

difficult, under extreme circumstances, to do this.

We sit here and watch a government stay idle and refuse to

speak when cuts to transfer payments from the Federal Government are affecting

every man, woman and child in this Province. It is just not fair that we have

people who are elected to represent the people of this Province, of whatever

stripe the government in Ottawa may be at the time, who are refusing to stand up

and speak out on this very important issue that we find ourselves in.

We have the government making drastic cuts to Adult Basic

Education. We have an argument back and forth of what the cuts are, what the

numbers are, whatever the case may be, but there is a cutback in the funding and

therefore a cutback in the opportunity for people to further their education. We

have a lot of people who, back years ago, through no fault of their own, left

school to go work in the fish plant, or go working in the fishing boats with

their fathers, and did not get to finish their high school education. Now,

through Adult Basic Education they would have a chance to go back and do this

training, and there is some training going on, and I agree with the Minister of

Education and Training when he says there is some degree of training going on

within the Province, out in private institutions and private schools through the

TAGS program or whatever, but what about those people who are not part of the

TAGS program? What about those people who are not part of any HRD funded

program, or any program that is funded by the Provincial Government, who are

trying to further their education through Adult Basic Education? Those people

are finding themselves out in the cold, and I think this is where government

should address this very important concern.

I brought forward a petition today on behalf of people in my

district who are looking for work, but not so much work as training with work,

and giving them the opportunity so that we don't have to be coming back here

every year bringing forward some type of program which everybody thinks is to

provide insurable weeks so people can get on unemployment. That is not what

people are looking for. They are looking for an opportunity to work and to have

a fair amount of dignity in getting up in the morning and going to work, and

partaking of some training that would enhance their capabilities to find

positive employment.

We have a government here which sits idly by and doesn't want

to shout or - take the issue of the Newfoundland Dockyard, Mr. Speaker. These

concerns are being brought forward every day by the Member for Kilbride and the

Leader of the Opposition. Not only the Newfoundland Dockyard and the 850 people

who were employed, but indeed all of Newfoundland and Labrador, which sees this

as another cutback by the Federal Government, another kick in the teeth to the

people of this Province. I say that the Provincial Government should be loud and

clear on their decision that under no condition is the Newfoundland Dockyard to

close, and bring it forward.

We have changes and cuts to the UI program, hundreds of

millions of dollars taken out of the UI program each year for the past couple of

years, that is creating major problems for this Province, and indeed problems

for the people in St. Mary's - The Capes who have been using the unemployment

insurance program to help them get through the winter months with the seasonal

employment that we have in relation to our fishery or construction or whatever

the case may be.

We have rural communities that are seeking assistance for the

future and all they receive is silence from the Minister of ITT or the Minister

of Employment and Labour Relations. This is why concerns have been brought

forward by the members on this side of the House, trying to enlighten the

members opposite on what is happening out in rural Newfoundland. The list could

go on and on. I see that the people of the Province are concerned because really

there is a loss of hope.

How could I stand here today and forget the Economic Recovery

Commission. How can I stand here today and say a few words without making a

comment on the Economic Recovery Commission and the Strategic Economic Plan,

when the only real jobs, I would say, that the Economic Recovery Commission has

created in this Province is their own. There is no doubt, I say to the members

opposite, and indeed to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, that

the chairperson of the Economic Recovery Commission, Dr. Doug House, is still in

a state of recovery.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes, who is it? He would have to ask, I say,

Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation may not be even

aware who is the chairman of the Economic Recovery Commission. But I say he is

still in a state of recovery, Dr. House, even though he has had a good many

years now to try to find some answers and some route that this Province could

take in trying to find some economic recovery. He still is in a state of

recovery.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) straw house.

MR. MANNING: Between straw house now and rocks and a few

other things that the chairperson of the Economic Recovery Commission has come

forward with, I'm sure that Newfoundland will be on the road to recovery - not

soon enough for me, I say to the members opposite.

Mr. Speaker, to have confidence or hope or vision in this

government is nothing short of a joke, I say to the members opposite. It is sad

to look around this Province now and we see young people who have been forced to

leave, young people who have no opportunity to find work in the Province, and

due to the increase in tuition fees at the University, many of our young people

will not even have the opportunity to go to school. I know in rural parts of the

Province where people have been struggling for years to try to educate their

children through dollars they have made in the fishing industry, that over the

next couple of years they are going to find it very difficult to send their

children to school.

I talked to a man the other day in my district whose daughter

is in second year university, I believe, and he tells me now it is about $14,000

he has invested in her education so far. She is entering her third year of

university in September and she can't get into a faculty. He is very concerned

about that, and the fact that these thousands of dollars now - and what is

happening because of the policies of this government is that the only people who

will be able to get a fair education in this Province will be the elite, I say

to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. The people who are out in

rural Newfoundland will not have an opportunity to partake in this education

effort.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I say to the Member for Eagle River, your

time is coming. Ours will be like a little kid's birthday party compared to what

it is going to be on that side of the House, Mr. Speaker.

Everybody is speculating on who is going to be the new leader

on that side of the House once the Premier steps down, because everybody knows

that the Premier is on the way out. I look around, and I will just give my -

since several members on this side of the House have thrown out a few hopefuls

or synopses of who will be the leader of the Liberal Party, I look over on the

other side of the House, and I ask myself: Would it be the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation?

To tell you the truth, the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation was a very popular fellow a few years ago, out in my district

along with everywhere else, but due to the fact that he has been silenced by the

Premier, Mr. Speaker, his popularity has taken a nose dive. It would be only

wasting his dollars, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation to try to take on for the leadership for the party opposite.

I say to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation,

there is a possibility he may be third, yes.

MR. TOBIN: Third to finish or third to declare it?

MR. MANNING: Third to finish, Mr. Speaker, he will never

be winner, guaranteed he will only be the third to finish.

Number two, I say to members opposite, could be the Minister

of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, could be. He has major contacts across the

Province. He may be able to reel those people in and present them. The Minister

of Municipal and Provincial Affairs I would say, would be a major contender,

that is if he has the guts to run, Mr. Speaker, now that is another thing that

we have to think about.

MR. EFFORD: Will the hon. member permit a question?

MR. MANNING: No, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't permit a

question from the members opposite under any conditions. I say the Minister of

Municipal and Provincial Affairs may have an opportunity to be second if, like I

said, he throws his hat in the ring. But I would say the top contender is off

with the flu. The top contender for the job on that side now is off with the flu

for the past couple of days and that is the Minister of ITT. The Minister of ITT

is top contender.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) the Member for Mount Scio -

Bell Island.

MR. MANNING: No, the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island

has as good a shot at it as I have. I would say to members opposite, the

Minister of ITT is going to be a top contender for the job opposite and we will

certainly look forward to the very heated campaign that is going to come from

that side, Mr. Speaker. I would like to make a comment -

AN HON. MEMBER: The Member for Fogo.

MR. MANNING: No, the Member for Fogo will support the

Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

It is going to be a very interesting race, Mr. Speaker, but

if I could get back to what I was talking about in relation to no confidence in

the government. A few weeks ago, Mr. Speaker, we had some members opposite who

were very upset, former ministers who were very upset and for some reason or

other, the Premier managed to correct that mistake that he saw. I quote the

words of John Morley when I say, `You have not converted a man because you have

silenced him.' I say to the minister opposite, you have not converted a man

because you have silenced him. So I look forward to the next few weeks.

I say to the members opposite, we have many people in this

Province now, young people who are looking for opportunities to try to find

work, Mr. Speaker, and this government doesn't give them an opportunity. In the

youth program funding for this year we are going to see a cutback of almost $3

million. Where there should be an opportunity for youth to find work, Mr.

Speaker, an opportunity for youth to get much needed funds that they need to

further their education, whether it be through adult basic education, whether it

be through university or some post-secondary institution, we are seeing program

funding this year cut by over $3 million.

Everywhere we go, we can see cuts, cuts, cuts by this

government and the cuts that the Federal Government - the part that bothers me

most, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that when the Federal Government brings down its

long arm, this government stands up and says, `Good job, boys, you've done a

fine job; keep it up.' Keep cutting, cut us to the bone, Mr. Speaker, cut the

opportunities for the people in Province to further their education, cut the

opportunities for the people in this Province to get a hospital bed, cut the

opportunity for the people of this Province to live in rural Newfoundland, cut

the opportunities for the people in this Province to at least have a bit of

hope, a bit of desire that they can live and work in rural Newfoundland, or any

part of Newfoundland, for that matter. Cut the hope of the 850 people who worked

at the Dockyard here in St. John's. Continue to cut. But the cut will come, Mr.

Speaker, when the Premier calls the next election.

The cut will come, Mr. Speaker, and the Member for Eagle

River can stand up and call down the Tory Government, call down the former Tory

Government. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation can get up and

say what he likes about the former Tory government but the dollars that he

spends on roads in this Province, Mr. Speaker, under the Roads for Rail

Agreement come from the former Tory government.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I say to the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation that without the federal agreement, Roads for Rail, that the

former Tory government brought in, what money you are spending on roads in this

Province, you would only be able to spend it on a good weekend, I say to the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, a good weekend. You are spending

nothing on the roads of this Province, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I only have a couple of minutes left so I would

like to finish up with a remark, really, that I started off with, and that is

the basic reason that in the past six years the real change promised by this

government has resulted in 18,531 people leaving this Province. We have a net

loss of 18,531 people in this Province over the past six years, and is that what

real change is all about? Does this government think that is what the people of

this Province voted for in 1989 when they voted for real change? Every day I can

drive around communities in my district and I can see young people who have to

pack up and leave, and travel to B.C. or travel to Alberta, wherever the case

may be, to find an opportunity to go to work, and members of my own family who

had no choice but to pack up and move on.

I talked to my sister in Port Coquitlam yesterday, and I

talked to other people from the district who have a desire to be home, working

and living in rural Newfoundland, or any part of Newfoundland I should say, but

they do not have that hope because of the attitude of this government. That is a

sad commentary on this Province when we have almost 20,000 people in six years

who have had to bail out of this Province to find an opportunity to go to work.

I think it is sad. Those are not numbers that have come out of my head. Those

are numbers from Statistics Canada that can be verified to any member on the

other side of the House.

The thought of bringing every mother's son home, the thought

of standing up in 1989, the Premier of this Province - or who wanted to be

Premier of the Province at the time - and telling us he was going to bring every

mother's son home, the mothers themselves have had to leave, and that is sad. It

is very sad when the mothers themselves, let alone the mother's sons, the

mothers themselves have to leave.

I finish up my comments with a quote from a former member of

this House, and it is very interesting: All is well that ends Wells.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise to speak to the non-confidence motion put forward by

the Leader of the Opposition, and to say that the challenges that we face as a

Province and as a people over the next ten years will be great, as all members

know, as all members will realize. Challenges to the economy, the challenge of

the creation of jobs, which truly is the best social safety net - a job - a job

that will provide for one's family, for one's future, for one's children.

The challenges in the fishery are immense. There was some

hope recently in terms of the northern cod stock, but it is only a glimmer of

hope, but the challenges that we face socially as a people as a result of the

downsizing and complete collapse of the Northern cod stock have yet to be felt.

In the next year-and-a-half when the federal government cuts

back further, and scales back further on its funding, on its commitment through

the TAGS program, people who traditionally depended upon the inshore fishery,

traditionally depended upon working throughout the plant sector and the offshore

fishery, but those people who have come to depend upon either TAGS, recently

TAGS that have been announced, as the only way of life, the only means of

support, the only economic and the only financial resources that they have, much

reduced compared to what they are used to, but when that, a year-and-a-half or

two years from now, runs out, what will we be left with? Will this federal

government come to the table again for the 25,000 or 30,000 people? Indications

are that they will not. The TAGS program is above budget now, but what will be

the social consequences that this Province will face as a result? That is the

most serious question that we face. The challenge and the question posed, and

how we respond to it, is a question that we have yet to answer.

The government to date has failed, really, in this respect.

What are the plans that they have made in terms of adjusting the social plan, as

they call it, that was supposed to accompany the economic plan. We have not seen

it. There has been little discussion on it, and I think that it is a topic that

deserves more discussion by all members in this House.

Mr. Speaker, also when we talk about the creation of jobs in

this Province, let's be honest about it. Since 1989 there have been few jobs

created in this Province. The movement recently in terms of the EDGE

legislation, while we support, is a long time coming, but where did the EDGE

legislation come from? That is the question I must ask. I don't know if the

Member for St. John's East Extern has a copy of it there or not.

MR. J. BYRNE: Not right now, no.

MR. E. BYRNE: But where did the EDGE legislation come

from?

People said that the Premier had come up with this fantastic

idea of travelling back from Ottawa somewhere, but recently in a magazine, a

business magazine out of the States, EDGE legislation introduced in Indiana - a

huge

article in 1994 about Indiana has given the people of Indiana the edge with

new EDGE legislation, mirrored exactly.

I only wanted to allude to that as a point. What I really

wanted to get at is that in a recent address the Premier has said that the

legislation brought in by this government dealing with EDGE has created 300 to

400 jobs. I challenge the government today to demonstrate where those 300 or 400

jobs have been created. Has the EDGE legislation truly created 300 or 400 jobs?

Does it have the capability of creating 300 or 400 jobs? The reality is this,

that while this government has been concerned with the creation of jobs it has

not been concerned with the maintenance of jobs already existing in this

Province.

The federal government over the last two years, since it was

elected, has down loaded on this Province at a time when we were most in need.

At a time when mainly because of the complete closure of the inshore and

offshore fisheries, the groundfish fishery, the federal government has picked

this point in time to kick this Province the hardest. When we have been most in

need we have not received the help that we deserved. This provincial government,

while it does not have the direct responsibility for what the federal government

has, it does have a responsibility to stand up and fight for the people of this

Province.

Let's talk about the Newfoundland Dockyard for a moment.

Yesterday in the House - I was absent, I had a family matter to tend to - but

the Leader of the Opposition asked a question in the House dealing with the

Newfoundland Dockyard. I believe the Premier's response was that the federal

government - oh, here. It says:

"The federal government obviously has a responsibility to

treat all provinces fairly. It cannot create a preferential position for one

province over another unless something unusual justifies it, like, for example,

the mismanagement of the fishery by the federal government has impacted in the

way it has in Newfoundland and Labrador that gives them a special responsibility

to deal with the issue on a different basis, but if you have an older dockyard

operating here, an older dockyard in Halifax, an older dockyard in Quebec City,

and an older dockyard in Vancouver, how can we - now this is the Premier of

Newfoundland and Labrador, let's keep this in mind, who was elected by the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador - justify saying:...but give Newfoundland

and Labrador special treatment. We can't do that, and I wouldn't ask them to do

it."

This Premier has asked very little from this federal

government. The reality with the Newfoundland Dockyard and the several hundred

jobs that exist there is this. For the past seven years Marine Atlantic has had

in its own hidden agenda a mandate to close the Newfoundland Dockyard. They have

failed to put existing money or new money into the Dockyard to recapitalize it

and bit by bit, day by day, year by year, what has happened? It has eroded to

the point right now where Marine Atlantic and the federal government, through

the federal Minister of Transport Doug Young, has said: It would cost too much

now.

It wouldn't have cost too much five years ago or seven years

ago if they had put in a reinvestment and capitalization plan. But they haven't.

They have mismanaged it. That is the point that must be made here. They have

mismanaged the Newfoundland Dockyard. This government must stand up to it. It

has a responsibility to stand up for the several hundred workers there. It has

no other choice but to stand up for it. To say that as Premier: "but give

Newfoundland and Labrador special treatment in this issue? We can't do that, and

I wouldn't ask them to do it," is unacceptable to me as a member of this House

and it is unacceptable to the people who work and live and survive at the

Newfoundland Dockyard.

There is another advantage that this government has in terms

of leverage with the Newfoundland Dockyard. IN 1984 the provincial government of

the day invested $10 million into the Dockyard by putting in the synchrolift. A

significant amount of money. The arrangement at the time - looking at some of

the old Cabinet papers - was that the money was put in at an interest rate of

16.8 per cent, and that it would be paid back annually each and every year from

profits. There were no profits. That was one of the problems, there were no

profits. But the reality exists today that this government, the people of this

Province, have a $10 million investment that the federal government cannot walk

away from without this government saying: Where is our $10 million?

That is a lot of leverage. That is a huge amount of leverage.

Now there may be a legal case, quite possibly, and the government must look at

its own options.

MR. REID: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I will deal with that in a second I say to

the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

As we just said the Province here has a $10 million

investment, at least $10 million.

AN HON. MEMBER: No, you are talking about $14 million.

MR. E. BYRNE: How is it $14 million? If you were to take

16.5 per cent in 1984 on top of the $10 million that was invested and accrue

that up until this point in time you would end up with a lot more than $14

million. You would end up with close to $33 or $34 million.

AN HON. MEMBER: I am sure it was not $10 million.

MR. J. BYRNE: Then what was it? I would say you are

looking at, over eleven years at 16.8 per cent on $8 million you are probably

talking about $29 to $30 million, if you are compounding 6.8 per cent interest

up to that point in time.

AN HON. MEMBER: It was a lower interest rate then.

MR. E. BYRNE: No, it wasn't. According to the Cabinet

papers of the day that I saw the negotiating rate was 16.8 per cent. There are

former Cabinet ministers on this side. The hon. Member for Mount Pearl, the hon.

Member for Grand Bank, the hon. Member for Burin - Placentia West, and the hon.

Leader of the Opposition, are all former Cabinet members, so we do have a bigger

investment, you are right.

Now, the question I raised this morning, I say to the

Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, up until this morning at 9:00

o'clock or 9:30, Marine Atlantic had still not given a letter to the dockyard to

say, go ahead and get that work. It is unacceptable. My understanding is that

there has not even been a response let alone, well, we will get it to you. They

have not even responded to the information sent up. What time is the meeting on

Monday?

AN HON. MEMBER: 11:30 o'clock.

MR. E. BYRNE: If the dockyard does not respond by Monday

at 5:00, I believe, they are going to lose that contract. That is why I asked

this morning, because I thought it was important for you to do whatever is

necessary to get that letter from Marine Atlantic. Overall, the point that must

be made here is that the federal government, through Marine Atlantic, has

mismanaged the dockyard as it has mismanaged the fishery. The federal government

has a responsibility to invest in it. They have a responsibility to come to the

table with something. That is the reality of it.

Mr. Speaker, what else are we looking at over the next five

or ten years? We see that all of us as elected members of the house are going to

have to sit down and take a serious look at the type of Province we are going to

see. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation at one time

administering a huge department is now looking at cutbacks, and has looked at

cutbacks, has had to deal with cutbacks over the last two years and is going to

have to deal with more significant ones over the next couple of years.

It is pretty serious when you can only announce this year an

$8 million program for road construction which only will pave about eight

kilometres of road in a Province that will take you twelve hours to drive

across. That is all that is left. That is what he has in his Budget.

MR. EFFORD: $70 million.

MR. E. BYRNE: How much provincial money was announced

this year, minister? You know full well what you have.

MR. EFFORD: $18 million.

MR. E. BYRNE: Even that is misleading. How much of that

was taken up? There was $1 million for signs, there was a $5 million commitment.

MR. EFFORD: We do not need signs.

MR. E. BYRNE: That is not what I am saying. I am talking

about paving the roads.

MR. EFFORD: You do not know what you are saying.

MR. E. BYRNE: I do know what I am saying. He has $8

million this year and he knows it. That is all he has.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible)

MR. E. BYRNE: There is nothing in Tory districts. The

reality is this, that as a people and as a government we are facing further and

further cutbacks, so how are we going to deal with it? They have taken it on the

chin. The only minister that I have heard who stood up to Doug Young at federal

transport was you. I understand, minister, that you told the federal minister

exactly what you thought of him. Isn't that correct?

MR. EFFORD: That's correct.

MR. E. BYRNE: And what was his response to you?

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. E. BYRNE: What was his response to you?

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: He what? Based upon your presentation?

Maybe you should be the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. Maybe the

dockyard would be saved by now if that was the case.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: He would make a better effort.

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, he would make a better effort, good

point. Mr. Speaker, what is really interesting that has come to this House in

the last couple of days is Bill No. 20.

AN HON. MEMBER: What that about now?

MR. E. BYRNE: There are a few people on the other side

who know what it is all about I can tell you. They are just waiting, waiting in

anticipation of what is yet to be, what they hope to be and I am going to

predict today that, when this session closes for the spring next week, that when

the Premier of the Province leaves this room, he will not sit back in this room

as Premier of the Province. He may come back as visiting, he may come in as a

Chief Judge, he could come back as something as a visitor -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Pardon me?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: How much do I want to bet? I am not usually

a betting man either but I offer my opinion for what it's worth, obviously not

very much.

Mr. Speaker, let me deal with the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs' comments about my comments. I can tell you that for the last

nine weeks there have been no serious talks on negotiations about the sale of

the dockyard with the only bidder, and if he doesn't know that, he should know

it, and what was said on CBC yesterday was only this: that the IOSG group were

still interested in buying the dockyard. They didn't say that negotiations

didn't break off, they didn't say that they hadn't talked to anybody in the last

nine weeks, they failed to say that, it was a word play, Mr. Speaker, that's all

it was.

The information that I have dealing with the dockyard, is as

credible and as current and as fresh and as good as any information that either

of the ministers or the Premier has! I can assure the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs of that and that's all that was said yesterday, all that was

said yesterday on CBC, was that a particular group at a particular time was

still interested in buying the dockyard. On terms of the sale of negotiation

with what is happening right now, once that group didn't pre-qualify for the

supply base, the discussions went under the table, kaput. That is exactly what

happened. I can assure him of that.

Anyway, now that I have dealt with that, I would like to move

on; I don't have a lot of time left.

AN HON. MEMBER: Now that the facts are known.

MR. E. BYRNE: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: Now that the facts are known.

MR. E. BYRNE: Set the record straight.

But in terms of the federal government, Mr. Speaker, maybe

this government is doing a lot to stand up to the federal government. Maybe they

are in their own way; in their own way telling Brian Tobin, saying to John

Chretin, saying to Lloyd Axworthy, saying to Doug Young what you are doing is

unacceptable, but if they are, and if they have done that, if they have, they

haven't told anybody about it; nobody is aware of it only themselves. I mean, at

some point in time, you must draw a line and say that we cannot cross that.

MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: When is it here, I say to the Minister of

Employment and Labour Relations, when is it here?

MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: When is it here? When is that time?

MR. MURPHY: You will know.

MR. E. BYRNE: I will know. Will you tell me?

MR. MURPHY: You will know.

MR. E. BYRNE: Will you tell me when it's too late?

MR. MURPHY: You will know, you can be assured.

MR. E. BYRNE: Is that right? We are at the eleventh hour,

right now in terms of the -

MR. MURPHY: We have been at the eleventh hour, seven

years since I have (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Well, seven years work has not produced

much, I say to the minister.

MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) shoot off your face, you think

(inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Is that right?

MR. REID: (Inaudible) shoot off your face (inaudible). Go

to work boy (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: The Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs just told me to go to work and make a living for a change. Now can you

imagine? Can you imagine the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations telling

me to go through the gates as many times as he has and I will know what we are

talking about. He has been the lone ranger on the dockyard for seven years,

working to do whatever he can for it, and I believe that, but, what has it

produced, I asked the minister? What has it produced?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: That is my point. That is my point exactly.

That is the point I have been making for the last week-and-a-half in this House;

what has been produced? Nothing has been produced; that is the point.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: This time last year I stood up and asked

questions in the House dealing with the dockyard and why -

AN HON. MEMBER: Asking questions does nothing to save the

dockyard.

MR. E. BYRNE: Well, what does? I ask the minister.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: What about representations to the now

federal Transport Minister? What about representations right now to Doug Young?

In the last ten days I have made fifteen calls to Doug

Young's office requesting a meeting, and he will not even phone me back. I have

been after Mr. Tobin's office for the last week-and-a-half, our federal

minister, to meet with me on the Newfoundland Dockyard, haven't got a date yet.

It is hard to make representation, I say to the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations, when the people you want to make representations to will not

even meet with you.

AN HON. MEMBER: Well perhaps the member should know how

tough it was to get a meeting with Mr. Crosbie.

MR. E. BYRNE: I have no idea. I wasn't elected in this

House when Mr. Crosbie was the federal minister. I have no idea. What I am

asking the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations right now is: Will the

minister, Doug Young, put money into the dockyard as former minister Crosbie

did? Will this government put money into the dockyard as the former government

did? That is the question.

AN HON. MEMBER: We will see.

MR. E. BYRNE: We will see; I hope. If by some chance, and

I think the dockyard has a long future and has some hope, but if the federal

government comes to the table with some money, and if the provincial government

were instrumental in making that happen, I will be the first member to stand up

and congratulate the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations and that

government, the very first. That is a fact.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) getting on with political

innuendos (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: What type of political innuendo have I

gotten on with? I ask the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Minister, let me ask you a question. What

innuendo are you referring to?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I am asking questions. That is what I am

here for. That is what I was elected to do.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

We are not into Question Period now; we are into the Budget

debate, so I would ask the hon. member to continue with his comments.

MR. E. BYRNE: I apologize to the House. I asked the

minister a question; I just wanted to make a point.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Pardon me?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the reality of what the

minister is talking about, political innuendo, he should talk to his own federal

cousins. The St. John's West MP stood up at a public meeting and said she was

the only friend that the Newfoundland Dockyard had in the Federal House of

Commons. Now, when the MP for St. John's West says that, what does that leave

the management, the trades council at the dockyard, to believe? What does it say

to them, I ask the minister? It says that the federal minister doesn't give two

hoots about the dockyard. The St. John's East MP -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) working hard.

MR. E. BYRNE: I never said that they weren't working very

hard. All I said is exactly what the St. John's - I repeated what the MP for St.

John's West said, that she was the only friend in Ottawa that the dockyard had,

of all the seven MPs that this Province elected. That is exactly what she said.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: It is pretty difficult.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: You are absolutely right, but I can repeat

what was said at a public meeting. If you said something today to me in the

Legislature, and it is recorded in Hansard, I can get up and read it and repeat

it; that is part of the public record.

The reality is, as all members know, and the Minister of

Employment and Labour Relations knows, that the dockyard has been mismanaged

from the federal government's point of view, not from the management here point

of view, that they have failed to give the Newfoundland Dockyard the tools that

are required. So we will wait to see what Monday brings. They are meeting at

11:30 a.m., and I hope, and I will say it for the record, that what comes out of

that meeting is positive, and I hope that the Minister of Employment and Labour

Relations, who I know is a friend and who has worked very hard for the people of

the dockyard, and they know it too - they have told me - and I know that he has

the interests of the Dockyard at heart. I'm not trying to tear strips off him

because I understand the position that he is in. It is a difficult one. If roles

were reversed I would say that the same debate may have taken place.

The reality is that after Monday - maybe you have a line in

mind that you can't discuss with me or with the public at this time that will

not be crossed. I hope that when that time comes you as the minister and your

government say: Enough is enough, here is where we are going to be. I think that

is all the people at the Dockyard are looking for, waiting for, and that is what

the people in the House and the people of this Province are waiting for.

Mr. Speaker, with that I will conclude my remarks on this

part of the debate. Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I support the

non-confidence motion that was put forward here last week.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

If hon. members wish to carry on conversation they will have

to do it outside the Chamber. The Chair has recognized the hon. Member for -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair has recognized the hon. Member for Placentia. Other

members wishing to engage in conversation will have to do so outside the House.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What a ruling on a

very unruly bunch. As I said earlier, I do support the non-confidence motion

that was introduced here last week.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: It is not passed. You will be passed. It will

be like the feast of the `Passover' that was put on some of those Liberals last

summer when others got in Cabinet. The feast of the `Passover.' The Member for

Eagle River went close but he didn't score a goal. Now he is over, he is weaving

around this Bill No. 20. We are going to see now, they are gathering like

buzzards, and the Member for Eagle River is trying to exercise the little bit of

knowledge he gained since coming in here by going to all corners. Many meetings.

He is trying to decide(???) who might be the winner.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: Oh yes. Puppy dogs and crackies. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, the non-confidence that was put forward here, I certainly agree with

it. Because over this past six years - their campaign in 1989 was a real change.

We've seen changes, we've seen wholesale changes. We've seen litanies of broken

dreams and broken promises. We've seen hospital beds close by the hundreds.

We've seen so many drastic changes to education. Why, even only a short while

ago money has been taken out of the ABE program. We've seen changes in forestry.

Newfoundlanders are going to have to work Newfoundland forestry out of New

Brunswick.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: Remotely. We've seen what the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation has done with the suspension of vehicle

inspections and vehicles that don't have to be inspected now that are on our

roads. We've seen what the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation is

about to do with the safety of our highways. The wing men being dropped off the

snow ploughs in the wintertime; maintenance mechanics about to be let go. Where

is the safety? All they are interested in is cutbacks. No thought is given to

what repercussions these cutbacks are going to have.

Don't they know, Mr. Speaker, that every action has a

reaction. But they are going to get their reaction on June 27 on a

non-confidence motion in Grand Falls. The last non-confidence motion they met

they met in Placentia in spades in February 1994. There were so many Liberals

out campaigning in Placentia in February 1994 they were tripping over each

other. Same as I see here today with the introduction of Bill No. 20. They are

still tripping over each other. When the Premier goes who are they going to be

on side with.

An inept government, a government without conscience, a

government that doesn't even fight with Ottawa for what Ottawa is taking away

from the people of this Province. Their cousins, alright. I remember past

governments in this Province before this had fallen out with their political

cousins in Ottawa when something was affecting the people of this Province. What

is wrong with the government now? It is all yes, yes, yes. In the next two years

there is going to be some $250 million cut from social services, education and

health from the federal government in transfer payments to this Province. How

are we going to absorb it?

No plans are being made, nobody fighting. Nobody stood up and

fought for Marystown. They never fought for Marystown. Premier Smallwood would

have fought for Marystown and Premier Peckford would have declared war. That is

the difference. You have one minister over there and that is the Premier. You

have the Premier and you are all `yes.' You are not yes men. When the Premier

says no, you say no. You say "no" to whatever he says, you say "yes" to whatever

he wants you to say.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: I heard the Member for Windsor - Buchans was

speaking and he found his intestinal fortitude when he was bounced out of

Cabinet. You speak now, why didn't you speak when you were in Cabinet? Too late

for you to speak.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: Listen, if you fight for something and you

lose, at least you can be remembered as someone who fought. The dry dock in St.

John's is another case. The Doug Youngs and The Rod Morrisons sweeping down

through us and all you are saying is "yes." They must be right, because they

have a certain status. Hibernia people, they must be right because they are up

here. Put on a pinnacle by some people in this Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: The ones who are getting railroaded now are

the people of this Province by an inept people, never -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. CAREEN: People are being screwed out of their

education, screwed out of health care, and screwed out of everything else. Mr.

Speaker, with apologies to the late Winston Churchill, never before in the

history of this Province have so many people been screwed by so few.

AN HON. MEMBER: Winston Churchill (inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: He did it. We should do it. We should stand

up to the crowd in Ottawa that is causing wreck and havoc in this Province and

saying: Yes, `Uncle Ottawa.'

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: It was Steinbeck who said that, I say to the

Member for St. John's East. He said it about the Okies.

We see another bill introduced into this House, Bill No. 5,

an amendment to the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, where

municipalities now can say no to government off loading onto them. It is going

to go to municipalities now, it is going to down load them, and it is going to

arbitrarily tell municipalities now that are in trouble: Here, you do the road;

and here, you will have to pay for it.

Massive unemployment problems out in this Province,

municipalities are in trouble and they are going to make matters worse. Is that

a conscience of a government? No.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: My heart was lighter then, too, I say to the

minister. It is only my head that is lighter now.

We have seen, over this past while too, Trans City. Is that

reason to give confidence to this government? No. We see what is going to go on

now. What is happening, another erosion in transportation in this Province is

what has happened to the road cruiser services. If you look at a pattern that

was done years ago, the back room boys and CN are doing the same thing they did

with the railroad, being aided and abetted by the government of this Province.

What you will see is a road cruiser service gone from this Province, replaced by

what I do not know.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: Well, there is a firm out of Nova Scotia that

would like to get their hands in on this Province, and who is it going to be to

the benefit of? More than likely the company from Nova Scotia, not to the

travelling public of this Province.

When the road cruiser services raise prices to where people

will not travel, and then they can turn around and say that people are not

travelling. They can put it on paper because paper never, ever refuses ink. They

can make the end justify the means by the patterns they have followed over the

years to get rid of a service. We see what the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation has done to the South Coast, or should I rephrase it and say the

monster of Works, Services and Transportation?

Voisey Bay is an interesting concept. I said here two weeks

ago, before it became popular with some members here, that if it is not done to

the benefit of the people of this Province it should stay in the ground. How

much thought is given to Voisey Bay and the other things that can be done there?

Eventually when they mine the copper, will we have firms up in Goose Bay

manufacturing copper wire, copper pipe, or will that be done elsewhere? Will we

look forward to a third mill in this Province? Not like the Smallwood government

had years ago, big ships going into Goose Bay that could only half load -

another Liberal regime. Voisey Bay, Goose Bay to Labrador, can be done for the

benefit of the people of this Province, but this government has done nothing to

instill hope in anybody.

We see the zones that they are about to put in place in this

Province, and provisional boards, and the way some of these zones have been

drawn up. Someone said the Premier did it a number of years ago over a kitchen

table, mapped out the zones in this Province. Well, the latest zones they came

out with, they have Merasheen Island and Red Island together with Bonavista Bay.

I say that someone took a map of Newfoundland and spilled a gallon of paint over

it; that is the way I see it where the boundaries run.

We see what the economic recovery team is doing, ERC.

AN HON. MEMBER: It irks you, doesn't it?

MR. CAREEN: It certainly irks. We have heard from the

jerk from ERC.

What are they doing over there with fancy computers, chalk

boards, pens - neither one of them ever got a bit of dirt under their

fingernails - all academics. They are talking about an economic recovery team,

and what do they have hid in it? Not a business person, not a community-minded

development person, a person on a sociology department at Memorial University.

MR. EFFORD: One thing (inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: What are you talking about? Oh, so what are

you, a patron saint of what today? What are you trying to get across that you

are holier than thou? Are you? We have holy roads now, not fit to drive over.

MR. EFFORD: They must be in Tory districts.

MR. CAREEN: No, they are in other districts, sir, because

you don't care. It takes people a long time to wake up but they have certainly

woken up to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation when they have to

travel the highways of this Province and vehicles are not fit to be on it are on

it, because of you.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) on it.

MR. CAREEN: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. CAREEN: You haven't woken up yet, but you will wake

up the next provincial election; you will wake up when you have your leadership

review when you will find out that you are going to come in, whatever it is, you

are going to be last whether it is out of five or six or two.

AN HON. MEMBER: He is going to come last, is he?

MR. CAREEN: He is last, he is finished, he is out.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: Well, he came in second. I say that's part of

what the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation is going to do.

AN HON. MEMBER: Even if he was the only candidate he

would come second.

MR. CAREEN: Yes. If he were the only candidate, those

people could vote for him but people in all good conscience couldn't vote for

him, but you see the non-confidence motion that was visited on this government

in February of ' 94, and the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation had

been out there too in Placentia district; I never told you before but he was

going around knocking on doors in Southern Harbour, trying to convince them and

the first time since 1949, they went wholesale PC, was after the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation had visited them there. I wish he would get

to more places in this Province that will really turn the people off. The only

chance they have sir, is keeping you in here somewhere, keep you locked up here

in St. John's or Port de Grave.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Grand Falls.

MR. CAREEN: Yes. He can get lost here in St. John's. The

minister was lost down in Bonavista Bay so there is no reason why he can't be

lost here in St. John's. What are they to do now when they balance the Budget, a

forced balance? The minister is taking off $55 million they had for the South

Coast service, and the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation promised

the people on the South Coast, that that money would be put in a separate fund.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: He said it; he said it would be in a separate

fund, what's the term he used? It would generate its own funds in perpetuity;

forever -

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. CAREEN: He never said it?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. CAREEN: Oh, so you only believe your own press, do

you? Okay, that's what you have. They only believe their own press. He said it

and you took that fund - there are $5 million left to come - $50 million have

been - $31 million spent last year - and $19 million this year to force a

balance, part of the balance of current account?

AN HON. MEMBER: So-called.

MR. CAREEN: So-called. No wonder the finance minister was

upset about what came out of mainland Canada yesterday about the growth, the

potential. You can't have forced Budgets because it will come back to haunt you

in a month or two or a year, but we see what is happening now that it is

reoccurring faster than even the minister anticipated.

AN HON. MEMBER: He has a good memory too.

MR. CAREEN: Memory? Oh yes and the minister's memory

leaves a lot to be desired as we have witnessed since last fall.

Anyway, Trans City, hospital beds, education, social

services, jobs, safety on our highways, hope for our young ones - none, no hope.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. CAREEN: You do not call them young ones, I gather. I

say a lot of stuff that is not politically correct. I do not go around looking

for what is politically correct. Whatever I find is right by me, I say. Right is

right and wrong is no man's right.

If ever confidence was shaken in a people, if ever a

government is on a track to put itself out into the wilderness they are on the

right track. The Premier led them in out off the wilderness after seventeen

years, blindly trying to find a way back, and before he leaves he is going to

deliver them back into the wilderness, and is going to take their compasses. I

say to members opposite that if they learned the story of Hansel and Gretel they

had better put some bread crumbs in their pocket to find their way back.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, it is good to have an

opportunity to speak on a motion of non-confidence in this House. Since I have

been here in 1990 it is the first time the Opposition has brought forth a motion

of non-confidence in the government. I do know if that is because it had great

confidence before.

MR. RAMSAY: They did two or three years ago.

MR. HARRIS: The Member for LaPoile corrects me. He

suggests there was two or three years ago. It must not have been given a lot of

attention because it does not stick in my mind, but I am pleased to have an

opportunity to speak on such a motion. In fact in preparing for my speech I had

to consider whether I would amend the motion to include the Opposition as well,

because as the Leader of the New Democratic Party I cannot express confidence in

the government or the Opposition.

In fact, in preparation for my remarks I was noticing in

Wednesday's paper a headline on Page 11 which says, `PCs may teach children

wrong lessons.' I had to read well into the

article to realize they were talking

about computers. I thought they were talking about the PC party, and I was

looking in the

article for support for my arguments against both the government

and the official opposition.

On a serious note the real question put forth by this motion

is whether or not there is