November 7, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 1415 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Wednesday, November 7, 1984 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 94 Builders' Lien Amendment Act, 1984 MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 94, the Builders' Lien Amendment Act, 1984. This is the 28th time this Bill has been before the House in some form in the last 50 years. The principles of the Bill are to extend from 35 to 45 days the time period for registering a lien, and to define terms such as "substantial completion".

It's a very complex Bill, and I urge members to study it very carefully. [Leave granted; Bill 94 read a first time] MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move that Bill No. 94, the Builders' Lien Amendment Act, 1984, be placed on the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] Bill 265

An Act to Amend the Debtors' Assistance Act MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill 265,

An Act to Amend the Debtors' Assistance Act. This Bill is molded closely on the amendments to the original Act, introduced by the UFA in 1933. Put simply, the Bill would prohibit any lender from foreclosing on any mortgage or other instrument of indebtedness if, by doing so, that lender would cause a farmer to lose his or her farm, a homeowner to lose his or her home, or an inde­ pendent businessperson to lose his or her independent busi­ ness. [Leave granted; Bill 265 read a first time] Bill 231

An Act to Amend the Environment Statutes DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill 231,

An Act to Amend the Environment Statutes. This Bill will require the Minister of the Environment to monitor emissions upon receipt of a petition from 200 Alberta residents. The minister must monitor the emissions for no less than 30 days and supply the results to the petitioners within a 60-day period. Also, the Bill demands that rather than the best practical technology, polluters will have to use the best available technology. [Leave granted; Bill 231 read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the 10th annual report of the Department of Federal and Inter­ governmental Affairs. MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the annual report of Alberta Economic Development for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1984. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to intro­ duce to you, and through you to members of this Assembly, 16 students from the Alberta vocational school that is situated in Edmonton Centre. These students are studying English as a second language.

They are accompanied by their teacher Marilyn Blaeser, and they are seated in the members' gallery. I ask that they stand, please, and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you and members of the Assembly some 62 students from grades 7, 8, and 9 in Eastwood school in the beautiful riding of Edmonton Norwood, the best place in Alberta to live. They are accompanied by their principal, Mr. Ray Quigg, and by teachers Sylvia Krogh, Mary Lester, and Lome Oxamitny, and they are seated in the public gallery.

I ask them to stand and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. STEVENS: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague the Member for Edmonton Mill Woods, the Minister respon­ sible for Native Affairs, I have the pleasure of introducing to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, five young ladies and their leaders from the 93rd Guide Company in Mill Woods. They are accompanied by guider Dorothy Mitchell, who I understand is a close friend of my colleague, and guider Anita Abrams. Would they stand and receive the welcome of the Assembly? Mr.

Speaker, again on behalf of our colleague, who was called away to his constituency, I have the pleasure of introducing 30 grade 6 students from Satoo school in Edmonton Mill Woods. Accompanied by Alice Halvorsen and their principal, Mr. Ron Hodges, they are sitting in the members' gallery. They're also accompanied by a parent, Mrs. Rocholl. Would they please stand? head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Department of Social Services and Community Health DR. WEBBER: Mr.

Speaker, over the past number of months there has been extensive discussion on the government's support to services for the disabled, in response to the Klufas Report on Services to Disabled Persons in Alberta. I am pleased to announce today the decisions taken in respect to the delivery of services to the disabled, and I would like to present the policy framework and approach which has now been adopted.

1416 ALBERTA HANSARD November 7, 1984 In Alberta, Mr. Speaker, a wide array of services is provided to disabled persons. Integration of disabled indi­ viduals into society remains a fundamental commitment. Programs now provide services to disabled Albertans both directly and through support of voluntary organizations. Expenditures on these services have increased substantially, from $63 million in 1971-72 to $641 million in 1982-83.

Current programs include the handicapped children's services program, grants to Alberta communities to fund parallel transportation systems for disabled persons, the assured income for the severely handicapped program, and Alberta aids to daily living, providing for the equipment needs of disabled persons. In recent years Alberta's post- secondary institutions have increased the number of programs available for disabled adults, and there have been improve­ ments in the provision of vocational rehabilitation training and residential services.

The Klufas task force report described a new outlook toward disabled persons in society, characterized by positive attitudinal changes by the public at large as well as among disabled persons toward themselves. This is highly consistent with the philosophy of government programs designed to assist disabled persons. Mr. Speaker, we have already acted on the report of the Klufas task force. Of the 111 recommendations and subrecommendations, more than 50 percent have been imple­ mented or are covered by current policies and programs.

Programs are now under review throughout the province to ensure their compatibility with the Klufas task force rec­ ommendations. Activities include a new course to train interpreters for the deaf, a publication of a guide to services for disabled Albertans, a brochure on parks which are accessible to the disabled, the streamlining of services for disabled students coming out of the school system, and the provision of special support services for the disabled, con­ tained in last spring's major expansion of the home care program. These are only examples. Mr.

Speaker, the government of Alberta fully supports and endorses the philosophy of the Klufas task force with respect to disabled persons. We will continue the commitment to this approach in serving disabled persons through the 1980s.

The government will also pursue, in co-operation with community agencies and disabled persons, a number of objectives, including services to facilitate equal partici­ pation in society by disabled persons, providing the least restrictive environment to disabled persons while helping them develop independence, providing a continuum of serv­ ices, supporting prevention of handicapping conditions, ensuring that services are available to all eligible Albertans, and providing information to both disabled persons and the general public.

The government's progress in implementing the rec­ ommendations of the Klufas task force will be monitored, and I will make an annual progress report to the Legislative Assembly for each of the next five years. In addition, the important new position of special adviser on handicapped issues within Social Services and Community Health will provide a provincewide focus and co-ordination of services for the disabled.

This office will have responsibility for follow-up on recommendations of the Klufas report, the co­ ordination and design of programs in conjunction with other government departments and organizations, and the identi­ fication of issues related to the disabled. Mr. Speaker, it is important to update policies in respect of the disabled in the light of the Klufas report and timely that hon. members of the Assembly, as well as the disabled and other members of the public, have this information in respect of new initiatives. MR. MARTIN: Mr.

Speaker, in rising to reply to the ministerial statement, I'm not sure where to start. It's such an earthshaking announcement of the government's inten­ tions. In this ministerial statement that's so timely, I see we've had a regurgitation of what the government has done from 1971-72 to 1982-83 in terms of the disabled. Nobody would suggest that the government doesn't stumble around and do the odd good thing for the disabled. It's nice that they're doing it. Some of the programs are very good. I hardly see the point of a ministerial announcement.

About the only thing new is the organization of the minister's department. Surely that is hardly news for a ministerial statement. I certainly wish the special adviser on handicapped issues well, and I hope they do a good job for the minister. But I suggest to the minister that reorganizing his department is hardly need for a ministerial statement. It seems to me that with some of these announcements — and this one in particular — we're here for the sake of making announce­ ments and wasting the time of the House. If he wants to reorganize his department, please feel free to do so.

But we shouldn't have to have a ministerial statement about that, Mr. Speaker. DR. WEBBER: We appreciate the co-operation, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, in commenting with regard to this ministerial statement, I'd like to say that the actual statement really deserves no comment. What the statement really tells me is that we have here a document that indicates we have a government in trouble. What they really want to do is tell the people what they're doing, and announce it. The only problem is that that's not the way government should be.

The government should be listening to the people instead of trying to tell the people what they're doing. The quality of work of a government is demonstrated by the services it delivers and the ability of that government to listen to the people and meet their needs. This document certainly doesn't do that, Mr. Speaker. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Contracting Social Services MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct some ques­ tions to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health. It seems to be his day.

Prior to the decision to implement a policy of contracting out an increasing number of social services and programs to the private sector, did the minister's department undertake any studies that con­ cluded that contracted-out services would be able to match the quality of those still directly operated by the department — in other words, quality control. DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, in terms of contracting out or having agencies other than government agencies provide services to Albertans in the area of social services and community health, I emphasize that this has been a practice for many years.

Of our $1.2 billion budget, over $300 million goes to agencies to fund their particular services to the people of Alberta. I would guess that approximately 90 percent of those agencies are those with volunteer boards,

November 7, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 1417 and the others are what you might classify as profit-making agencies. Both those groups provide excellent services. In terms of specific studies, there are ongoing assessments of the services that are provided. It's on the basis of those assessments that we will decide whether or not we will be contracting out, as the member put it, or having these agencies provide further services for our department. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I'm not sure what the answer to the first one was, so I'll try a second one.

Will the minister advise the Assembly if any studies by his department have indicated that contracting out social services and programs would actually help reduce government expenditures on social services? DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, as I have already indicated, there are volunteer agencies providing services out there. For example, we have a combination of both private-sector organizations and nonprofit community organizations pro­ viding day-care services in this province.

In terms of the ability to provide better services, one over the other, I don't think there's any evidence to indicate that one does provide better services than the other. We have a good day-care system in the province, probably the best in the country. That's an example of an area where, by providing grants to these agencies, they're able to provide excellent services whether they be nongovernment, volunteer-board run or operated by the private sector per se. MR. MARTIN: It's very debatable whether we have the best day care in Canada. I would love to debate that at some other point.

A supplementary question to the minister. I was asking about the cost, but I'll put it in a different way. Can the minister confirm that the only way a cost saving could be accomplished through contracting out would be if lower wages accrued to those employed by the private agencies? Can the minister confirm that that's the only way we would save money? DR. WEBBER: Mr.

Speaker, the primary reason for having local agencies and groups provide services for the department is that those agencies probably know better than we as government the local needs and concerns of the people in the area and therefore can adjust to the local needs and concerns. That's the primary reason for having these agencies provide services. In terms of cost efficiencies, we rely a great deal on the good judgment of the boards of these agencies to do that for us. In addition, there is in place an audit system whereby these agencies can have an audit done, and that is an ongoing process. MR.

MARTIN: A supplementary question to the minister. Has the government taken into consideration that possible lower wages may deter qualified people from entering the professions, thus lowering the quality of service to the clients? DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, I have no information that would lead me to that conclusion. MR. MARTIN: Maybe the minister had better check it. Let me file for the information of the Assembly minutes of a meeting of parents involved in resources for dependent handicapped persons that was held in Edmonton on July 24 this year. Basically, Mr.

Speaker, 48 of the 50 parents attending the meeting expressed strong support for the program as it now exists. My question is, can the minister assure the Assembly that he has now abandoned plans in this area to turn the program over to a private agency? MR. SPEAKER: May I suggest that the filing seems to have very little to do with the question. I perceive that the question could stand on its own feet without a possibly controversial item of filing. DR. WEBBER: Mr.

Speaker, in terms of local agencies providing services for the department, we would extend beyond the $300-plus million any provision or funding in that direction only after careful review and consideration. Certainly we are looking at areas to see if it is possible that nongovernmental agencies can provide these services better than the government, but we would extend funding in that direction only after careful consideration. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question specifically on the program dealing with dependent handicapped.

Will the minister indicate to this House whether they will be con­ tracting out this particular service against the wishes of the majority of the parents — 48 out of 50? DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, I find it incredible that the hon. member takes 50 people in this province and uses that as a basis for us to make a decision. I will repeat once again that any decision to turn government-provided services over to nongovernmental agencies will only be made through very careful consideration. MR. MARTIN: What that means is that we don't listen to the parents . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR.

MARTIN: . . . who are concerned at the local level. So much for the talk about listening . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. I believe the minister is aware that in a memo, his Assistant Deputy Minister of Program Development, Mr. John Lafrance, showed some concern about lack of standards for private agencies, particularly those involved with the handicapped, about which we just had a ministerial announcement.

Can the minister assure the Assembly that no government grants are provided to private agencies without strict insistence that certain minimum standards of service must be met? DR. WEBBER: To make a correction, Mr. Speaker, the memo the hon. member referred to is a

summary of a meeting that took place in northeastern Alberta and represents the opinions of individuals who attended that particular meeting. In terms of the development of standards, yes, there is a lot we can do to improve standards in a number of areas in this province, and work is ongoing in that regard. Some of the private nongovernmental agencies out there are work­ ing very hard with our department to try to establish standards. There are a number of organizations doing that. For the hon. member to suggest that we put in place standards prior to any provision of funds to private agencies,

1418 ALBERTA HANSARD November 7, 1984 I don't think that's a reasonable request to make. The way programs often evolve is that if there is a public need in a particular area, we would provide funds for that particular service after giving consideration to that need. An example of this is in the area of women's shelters. We have approximately a dozen in the province now, with a couple more coming on stream. The umbrella organization, the Alberta women's shelter organization, together with our department, is looking at the whole question of standards for women's shelters in this province.

Often funding for community needs will occur and, once the program starts to develop, then the question of standards becomes a prime consideration. MR. MARTIN: That's a very disturbing answer. A sup­ plementary for a point of clarification, because I don't want to misunderstand the minister. Is the minister saying that money can be sent to private agencies dealing with, say, handicapped people even though they don't know the stan­ dards of those agencies? Is that what the minister is telling us? DR. WEBBER: I'm not sure what the hon. member is suggesting, Mr. Speaker. I couldn't comprehend what he was saying.

We do provide funding on a trial basis for programs in this province. There is a trial project under way in southern Alberta for handicapped young people over the age of 18 coming out of the school system. Then there is the northeast women's shelter program or the rural protection program. In funding those kinds of trial projects, surely the hon. member wouldn't expect that uniform standards be put into place for a program that may develop out of those trials. The development of standards would be an ongoing process after the trials occur. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I suggest that the standards are the responsibility of that minister and that department. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary in this series. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, one final supplementary in this area. In mid-September I released a memo drafted by the deputy minister of the Department of Social Services and Community Health which, among a lot of other things, if you could read it, indicated that the department is looking at privatizing nonward adoptions. Can the minister outline how it is contemplated that adoptions will be privatized? DR. WEBBER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know how I would survive as minister of this department without the very useful help of the hon. member over there releasing memos — reading my mail and then releasing it publicly. I know he's only doing that to help me. I think the word "privatization" has been misconstrued by a number of people. We've been using the term "to have nongovernmental agencies provide services for us", whether it be for those agencies that have volunteer boards in place or whether they are agencies that provide a service for a profit.

Certainly we are looking at a large number of areas to see what the possibilities are in that regard. MR. MARTIN: We'll continue to help out the minister, because we know he needs it. Obviously he doesn't know how they're going to do that, so I'll move on to another minister, Mr. Speaker. Recreational Funding MR. MARTIN: I'd like to direct this question to the Minister of Recreation and Parks, if I can get his attention.

Prior to government approval of heritage trust fund support for a $2 million golf course in Waskasoo Park in the city of Red Deer, what consultations did the minister have with the private golf course owners in the Red Deer area? MR. TRYNCHY: Mr. Speaker, we had no consultation with the private owners, because the development of the heritage fund park in Red Deer is the responsibility of that city. We provided the city of Red Deer with a grant.

After a number of hearings in that area, I understand, with all groups attending, they decided on their own that they should develop a golf course within the city of Red Deer. So we didn't have any consultation, and we don't respond in that manner. We provide the grants to the cities, and they do their own design and planning with regard to what they find out is necessary within that location, by having public meetings. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question.

I point out that provincial government money is competing against the small- business sector, and there is a responsibility. [interjections] Oh, they get a little nervous when we get into free enterprise. What assessment did the minister's department make of the potential financial impact for local golf course owners of the added competition which will certainly be introduced with this new public golf course? And don't say it's the local government, because it's provincial government money. MR. TRYNCHY: Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member doesn't believe in local autonomy. He just proved his case right there.

This government doesn't tell the 60,000-plus people of Red Deer what they should be doing. The people decide for themselves and, in co-operation with our people in design and planning, they go ahead and do what the people want. If the hon. member is suggesting to me that we should turn that around and have government do every­ thing for everybody — and I guess that's a socialist idea — we're not in favour of that type of attitude. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that we have socialism in golf courses.

I'm talking about the private enterprisers in Red Deer who are being squeezed, if we want a lecture on private enterprise. My question — I probably know the answer, but we'll find out. Did the minister personally authorize public funding for the four-man fact-finding mission composed of Red Deer parks and recreation officials who flew to Cape Cod, golfed some of the many courses, and discovered to what extent their shower and changing facilities are utilized? MR. TRYNCHY: Mr. Speaker, I'm really amazed at the question. I guess the hon. member was here and, if he was, wasn't listening.

Right here in this Legislature, we approved the heritage funds to all those cities. That's the way the system works. We do not tell the city what to do with those funds. We do not approve whether they go to Cape Cod or wherever. It's a decision the city council makes on their own, and they'll have to answer to their people in due time.

November 7, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 1419 MR. MARTIN: It's called pass the buck. It's just taxpayers' money; don't worry about it. A supplementary question. I believe the minister has received some mail from local entrepreneurs in Red Deer. I'd be surprised if he hadn't, because we have. Will the minister undertake a review of the government's commitment to finance the Waskasoo golf course, in view of the limited population growth in Red Deer now and the negative financial impact this publicly funded golf course might have on the three privately owned golf courses in the Red Deer area and the 10 in the whole area?

How many of them do we want to put out of business? I am asking if they will review that. MR. TRYNCHY: Mr. Speaker, I've received one letter, and I've responded to it. It's probably the same letter the hon. member is speaking about. We do not intend to change the rules of an ongoing program we've had for some six years. So I don't know how I would get involved in telling any city, whether it's Lloydminster, Red Deer, Medicine Hat, or whatever, that they must change their plans because I don't like them. Those are the people's plans, and it will continue to be that way until the program is finished. MR.

MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, now that we know we're into socialized golf courses. Will the minister advise this Assembly whether or not his depart­ ment knows of any other plans to compete against privately owned small businesses in the recreation industry? MR. TRYNCHY: Mr. Speaker, I guess the hon. member can't understand. Those are not our plans; those are the cities' plans. The heritage fund urban parks policy is the plans, guidelines, and rules of their cities. They're not our plans. We wouldn't be involved, and we're not going to be involved in such a thing.

I don't know if the hon. member understands what we're trying to get across to him. [interjections] MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Recreation and Parks. MR. SPEAKER: Followed by the hon. Member for St. Albert and then the hon. Member for Red Deer. MR. R. SPEAKER: When the request was made by the city of Red Deer for funding through the Heritage Savings Trust Fund, could the Minister of Recreation and Parks indicate whether the golf course in Red Deer was included and would have been a matter of review prior to the approval or recommendation to this Legislative Assembly?

MR. TRYNCHY: Again, Mr. Speaker, I mentioned that the other day when I did my estimates. Public meetings in Red Deer did talk about golf courses within the city of Red Deer. There were a number of meetings held. I believe some two months were set aside, and there were four or five meetings. The people requested their local government, the city of Red Deer, to develop a golf course in their plans. That information was given to us in their master plan. We approved the master plan on the condition that their people approved it. It was done that way, and we would go ahead with it.

We do not tell the city of Red Deer what they can or cannot develop. It didn't come to this Legislature, because it doesn't have to. The whole urban parks policy is an approval system of the city within their local jurisdiction with their local people, and then presented to us in a master plan that we fund. MRS. FYFE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Due to the importance of the urban parks program to small cities that have not had the funds available to develop parks of their own, is the minister considering an expansion of this program to those cities that have not been treated in the same equitable manner? MR. TRYNCHY: Mr. Speaker, I believe that in their recommendations, the heritage fund committee suggested that other cities, towns, and villages be considered for urban park funding. I guess I'd like to see it across the province, and in time we'll probably see that. MR. McPHERSON: Mr. Speaker, a supplemental question.

I'd like to continue this astonishing line of questioning by the Member for Edmonton Norwood, who obviously believes there's no place whatsoever for local autonomy in this province. If the minister is deliberately responsible for the allocation of resources to Waskasoo Park, as suggested by the Member for Edmonton Norwood, was the minister actually responsible for the enormous amount of public input that took place in relation to the park and the golf course?

What kind of representation was made at the time to that planning committee with respect to the golf course, when there was a widely publicized public meeting on that par­ ticular area? MR. SPEAKER: It would seem to me that the hon. member has made a very well-planned representation. Perhaps he has achieved his purpose without the question being answered. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Recreation and Parks. [interjections] If my hon. friend from Edmonton Whitemud were here . . .

He wanted to know how I could have saved him $2 million or $3 million on Kananaskis, and I certainly could have told him. Mr. Speaker, I'm asking the question of the Minister of Recreation and Parks or the Minister of Tourism and Small Business. What studies go on in the ministers' depart­ ments to find out the impact when government-sponsored projects such as Kananaskis and Mount Allan compete with the private sector: Lake Louise, Sunshine, and Norquay? Can the minister indicate what impact studies to see the effect on the private sector are done before those decisions are made? MR. TRYNCHY: Mr.

Speaker, when Kananaskis Country was announced some years ago, in 1977, there were certain discussions by government people and the private sector. To my recollection, the last number of responses I've received from the public of Alberta are much in favour of what's happening in Kananaskis Country. I'm sure the hon. member, who was there this summer or whenever it was, can vouch for that. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, that was not the question. AN HON. MEMBER: That's the answer. [interjections] MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, maybe we can get back on track relative to the question as it relates to Mount Allan, because that was the specific of the hon. Member for Clover

1420 ALBERTA HANSARD November 7, 1984 Bar. Number one, it should not be forgotten that the original plan relative to the Mount Allan site as it relates to the 1988 Winter Olympics was to have the private sector in fact construct, build, and operate that particular site. That didn't seem to be possible in light of the period of time those requests were made to the public. We ended up with higher interest rates; we had some difficulty with the federal budget of 1980-81.

What occurred in March 1984 was that we made the decision, in light of the commitment we as a government had given the Olympic committee and the city of Calgary as the hosts, to go ahead with the construction of that site but we- would still be looking for the private sector to operate it. That has not changed. At the present time, Mr. Speaker, we are in negotiations with a short list of eight people, I believe, who are interested in being the operators of the hill, and they are private sector. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, my direct question to the minister is: what studies have been done by his department to find out what impact a government-funded, government-sponsored program in Kananaskis Country is going to have on the communities of Canmore, Banff, and Lake Louise and their ski facilities? What direct impact is it going to have on those facilities already in place? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, a slightly different question from the original one that was asked relative to the site itself Let me just assure the member that the study of the impact of the 1988 Olympics, which relates to the facilities that were built for the Olympics — and that of course is the men's downhill, Mount Allan, which has snow on it, and it's between the trees and on the slopes and is being skied; everything is going reasonably well, much better than I had anticipated for this time — as well as the nordic sites and all the other sites is going on and has been ongoing for a number of years.

Right now we're updating it on the impact of the Olympics and those venue sites for that particular area. I might suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, and through you to the hon. member, that I think the updated study will be done somewhere around the end of this year, at which time we'll be releasing it to the public.

I'm assuming on the basis of some of the information I know, but it should point out some of the major advantages that occur as a result of a world event like the Olympics and the specific venue sites that are related to the Olympics, in this case the private-sector operation of a site that was constructed by the government of Alberta to meet a commitment we made to the Olympic committee and to the people of Alberta and Canada. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister of Economic Development indicate if there has been any monitoring of the public-sector Kananaskis golf course versus the golf course in Banff, to see if there was an economic effect on the use of that facility? This is going to be parallel to what's going to happen when we're using Mount Allan versus these other ski facilities. What impact was there on that golf facility in Banff? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, that's not something this department would assess on an ongoing basis. It properly belongs to the two who have already responded, I think thoroughly, to the question. MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, I might just respond with a little additional information on that one. I think one of the impacts that is known to the general public now is that as a result of that particular one, the Banff course has been upgraded and is a better facility, being used by those who are served by staying at that particular facility. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Would the Minister of Tourism and Small Business undertake a review of the three golf courses in Red Deer and the possible golf course through the Heritage Savings Trust Fund, to see what kind of impact this new public golf course could have on the current golf courses at the present time, which are small businesses? MR. MARTIN: Help small business. MR. ADAIR: You do rattle, don't you? Mr. Speaker, the hon. member was saying, would I undertake a review of what might be an impact on small business as it relates to golf courses in the central Alberta area? I assume that's what you were saying.

Certainly I can do that if I'm requested to. I'm not sure I've had any information sent to me that there is a concern. From the standpoint of being Minister of Tourism and Small Business, any impact of any facility on another business — if it were requested of us, we would look at that. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, if the decision to construct or get into a project of that nature were made by the municipal authority it lies within, certainly we would look at it from that standpoint and be in contact with them and discuss it with them.

But as the hon. minister said, the decisions were made by the people within that municipal authority. Radio Telescope Project MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Economic Development is further to questions I raised in the spring Legislature on April 9, 1984, with regard to the long-baseline array radio telescope being located in Alberta, specifically Lethbridge. Could the minister indi­ cate whether further discussions have taken place and a progress report can be made at this time, indicating that Lethbridge will be successful in securing that facility? [inter­ jection] MR. PLANCHE: Mr.

Speaker, my colleague indicated that that question was planted. My approach to the federal ministers responsible has been that the facility would be in Alberta, not necessarily Lethbridge. I have written to the new minister, the Hon. Tom Siddon, on the issue, trying to arrange a meeting; his

schedule is snug. At the earliest convenient moment for both of us, we will be getting together on the issue. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. It's my understanding that the University of Lethbridge made a submission to the minister approximately four months ago. Has the minister been able to review that submission and endorse the proposal at this time? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, both the city of Lethbridge and the University of Lethbridge have kindly kept me informed of their activities. We're very supportive of having the long-baseline array facility, should it occur, come to Alberta.

We will continue to do everything in our power to see that that happens. There have been some very generous

November 7, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 1421 offers of support by jurisdictions. I have some negotiating room that I intend to exercise when I can sit down with the appropriate minister, and will do it. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is it the intention of the minister or the government to contribute funding toward the project when the project is successful? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, I don't think it's appropriate to comment on that at this time. Every time we make that kind of indication, they simply back off from their respon­ sibilities.

As the meeting comes into focus and we get an opportunity to sit down, we will discuss all aspects of how we might attract it. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, could the minister indicate whether the request for a meeting with the federal minister is for prior to the end of 1984, or has he left that meeting date open? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, the meeting was scheduled for within the next 10 days and, as I understand it, was unfortunately cancelled due to circumstances beyond the control of the other minister. We're trying to re-establish another date. MR. NELSON: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Economic Development. It's been indicated that submissions have been made by the University of Lethbridge and the city of Lethbridge. I'm just wondering if the minister has also received a submission from the University of Calgary and/or the city of Calgary, seeking the same long- baseline array facility for that particular region of the province. MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, I thought I indicated that my concern was having the facility located in Alberta and that I had some interesting approaches from some jurisdic­ tions within the province.

That includes the University of Lethbridge, the city of Lethbridge, the University of Calgary, and the Calgary Chamber of Commerce. Hay Depredation by Elk MR. STILES: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Associate Minister of Public Lands and Wildlife. Is the minister at present aware of the shortage of feed for livestock because of drought conditions this past summer and of the continuing problem of depredation of baled and stacked hay by elk in the area west of Highway 22? If he is aware, what steps are being taken to correct that condition? MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, I am aware of problems throughout that area.

This early snowfall has brought the elk farther away from the mountain ranges and into areas where they didn't formerly pasture. We have several programs available. Our officers are out in the area. We have had bloodmeal put around hays­ tacks. We have a program of compensation available for farmers whose haystacks are being attacked by elk or deer, and our department will assist them in fencing. The farmers involved should contact the nearest Fish and Wildlife office for assistance. MR. STILES: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the minister could advise whether forage conditions in the forestry and wildland areas are the same in other parts of the province. Is there a possibility of herds moving into other areas besides the area I mentioned? MR. SPARROW: Yes, we have an excessive and increasing number of elk throughout that area right down to the southern part of the province. The shortage of feed will be a major problem to wildlife throughout southern Alberta this winter. We will be looking at elk traps and transporting these elk to more northern areas.

There is quite a demand farther north and a very great shortage of elk, especially in northern Alberta. We hope a temporary trap that is being constructed will help us with entrapment and placing some of these animals farther north. MR. STILES: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister give any indication when the portable trap will be completed and ready for operation? MR. SPARROW: I would have to call my department, but I know it was under construction. Consideration is being given to using it in that area as a test case.

We also hope the hunters in that area are successful; I understand the hunting season just opened. There is one other thing that could be done in that area; that is, increase the take by a special hunt under depredation control. That could be a measure we have to use by opening the season and issuing more licences in that area, rather than letting them have winter problems and die off MR. HYLAND: In the last part of the question, Mr. Speaker, the minister answered my question related to an extended hunting season. Farm Fuel Distribution Allowance MR. LYSONS: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Provincial Treasurer. It's in relation to the farm fuel distribution allowance, which is a great help to farmers. Will your department do an audit with the oil companies to see that the farm fuel distribution allowance is in fact used as intended? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, audits are carried on regularly. The question is timely, because I understand that in the rural area of the province there are variances in the prices of diesel and various gasolines as between the various retail outlets.

I am told at this time that the reason for this is that there is an oversupply of diesel fuel and a number of gasolines, and the refineries are attempting to get rid of those supplies. What could be called a price war is going on in many areas. Therefore I would say that that provides an opportunity for farmers to get the best deal and to ensure they get the most benefit from the farm fuel distribution allowance. The best thing for farmers to do is shop around among all the outlets that are selling either diesel or gasoline in their area and negotiate the best price, drive a hard bargain, and be competitive.

That will put the pressures on the marketplace such that the lowest price will be available to the farmer, as well as the most direct benefit of the farm fuel distribution allowance. MR. LYSONS: A supplemental question, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the Treasurer's advice; however, you're wrong. [interjections]

1422 ALBERTA HANSARD November 7, 1984 The counties and bigger purchasers tender out their bulk fuel to the point that one of my counties is getting fuel at 26.5, which is cheaper than the farmer can buy it, regardless of the size. Would the minister sit down with the industry, the suppliers, and work out an arrangement whereby they could not sell either clear or marked fuel at a lesser price on a bulk purchase? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the gentle way in which the hon. member indicated I was in error.

I'm not sure whether that's entirely feasible, again because I think we have a marketplace supply/demand price-war situation out there. As hon. members know, this Assembly approved the mechanism for delivery of the farm fuel distribution allowance, which is the simplest form and gets the benefit to the farmer in the most direct way through the bulk oil dealers, both those who represent specific refineries and, by a recent amendment, the independent dealers as well. The independent bulk oil dealers make the deduction and that is paid to them by the oil companies.

The oil companies then bill the government and the government sends a cheque to the oil companies. If there is an indication, or information the hon. member has, that either the law or the regulations are not working, I would be pleased to follow up on that. MR. LYSONS: Mr. Speaker, another supplemental question. Would it be possible for farmers who are entitled to the distribution allowance to buy unmarked fuel at a competitive price from keylocks, for instance? Could they then apply to the province for that price?

In other words, keylocks will sell clear diesel at a price cheaper than the bulk station can buy it. I'm asking if farmers can then apply where we have direct evidence of this happening. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe the present law and regulations would enable that form of delivery vehicle to take place.

However, I think the best way to ensure that there's the best bargain here is for the farmers to shop around to get the best deal, put pressure on the bulk dealers, and therefore pressure on the oil companies, such that there will be the lowest possible price available for diesel and/or other marked gasolines in the area. Short of having the government, through something like the Public Utilities Board, set gasoline prices — and that's something this Legislature has not decided it wants to do — I think that is the most effective way to ensure the best deal. MR. LYSONS: A supplemental question, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the provincial government and the people of Alberta subsidize oil companies in grants, incen­ tives, and so on — they're called incentives in the oil industry, but subsidies to farmers — could the Provincial Treasurer not use that stick a lot easier than every individual farmer, or three or four or, as some members are saying, six or seven getting together to buy it? The problem is that the bulk dealers can't buy it as cheaply as the keylocks. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, if farmers will go to retailers other than the bulk dealers, indicate that they're going to buy at the lowest market price, get together and buy in bulk, and strike the best deal, then the pressure is going to be on the refineries and bulk dealers and their prices will change. I suggest that is probably the best approach that should be taken. Prearranged Funerals MR. FISCHER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. There has been grave concern over the solicitation and sale of prearranged funerals.

It has been expressed that certain companies have been taking unfair advantage of elderly people by using high-pressure sales­ manship. Is the minister's department aware of this problem, and what is being done about it? MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I believe I'm aware of only one instance where there has been a complaint about the style of salesmanship used by a particular salesman. In the event that the hon. member doesn't know, those people who are selling prearranged funerals have to be arranging a contract through a registered and operating funeral home.

But where a complaint existed, when it was brought to our attention, it was corrected immediately by the operators, those in authority at the funeral home. MR. KOWALSKI: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs on this matter. About a year ago the minister indicated to me that she had the pertinent legislation under review. Is she still reviewing the legislation? MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I recall that I had a meeting last winter with the association that represents some 90 percent of the funeral homes in the province. They expressed some concerns at that time.

I recall memoing a number of members of the Legislature who had indicated that funeral homes operating in their constituencies expressed the same concerns. Because I hadn't received any information from either consumer organizations or members of the public expressing the same concern, I sought to see if that concern was indeed shared by the public. There isn't a lot of advice to be given on that matter.

For the hon. member's information, following up with the indication I gave, a group of our colleagues has met with the association, and I have undertaken some meetings with those people who don't belong to the association. There is a difference of opinion as to what should be contained in the Prearranged Funeral Services Act.

I could also say, for the edification of the hon. member, that the recommendations that have come forward from the association haven't dealt so much with the conduct of salesmen as with the trust account provisions in the Act; that is, there is no provision for the interest to remain in the trust account. A number of people have taken exception to that suggestion by the Funeral Services Association, because they believe that as consumers they should be able to negotiate what they want in the contract. So there is a difference of opinion. I would be happy to receive any other information that has come forward.

A decision on this will probably be made by the middle of December. All meetings should be complete. Rental Security Deposits MR. GOGO: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. As the minister is reviewing the whole area of trust accounts, perhaps she could advise the House if she's prepared to review the matter of trust accounts for damage deposits by renters in Alberta.

November 7, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 1423 MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I've already responded to that question. Health Care Insurance Payments MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care explain the delay of up to six months in payment of medical expenses incurred by Albertans outside this province? Is medicare broke, or what is the matter? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, they're not broke, as a person with an understanding of the budget would appreciate. [interjections] But there is a delay I'm not happy with.

We have the department working on it, trying to reduce the, in my view, almost endless bureaucracy involved in paying these out-of-country claims. My advice to people who have complaints has been to pay them and at least get the claimants off their back, and then we will reimburse them. I think hon. members can appreciate the amount of work involved in meeting audit requirements, in checking and verifying the various claims under various foreign health plans, before we release the cheque.

The hon. member is quite correct; he has identified a nagging problem that is annoying many Albertans who run up these out-of-country claims. MR. STROMBERG: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I would like to point out, if I may, that usually by the time an Albertan has saved enough money to go on a holiday, he surely doesn't want to be prepaying his medical expenses. Is the minister aware that some Albertans are being threat­ ened by legal action if medicare payments are not forth­ coming? MR. RUSSELL: Exactly, Mr. Speaker.

That's why we advise people to pay the bill and get it off their back, because what they're justifiably entitled to is going to be paid by the department. That doesn't mean the whole claim will be paid. But what some citizens are doing is refusing to put out any money of their own and waiting for the Alberta health care plan to pay it. Very often, of course, our coverage doesn't cover the full claim as it has been presented.

To my way of thinking, notwithstanding the delays in this, it would make it simpler if people paid their claims and waited for reimbursement from their insurance company, the Alberta health care plan. MR. STROMBERG: It depends on how many dollars you have. MR. SPEAKER: We've exceeded the time for the question period. If the House agrees, perhaps we might deal with a short supplementary and a short answer. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. STROMBERG: I had a long supplementary.

However, is there any way we can assure out-of-province doctors and hospitals that money owed by medicare will be paid pronto in the future and Albertans will not have to pay for health services out of their own pockets in advance? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I don't know what more I can say other than what has been said. When most Albertans travel out of the country, they're now taking out-of-country insurance. It's certainly well advertised, it's very reasonable, and that's what people should be doing.

Notwithstanding that, if they are going to wait until their claims are paid by Alberta health care, the only thing I can guarantee is that they will eventually be paid to the limits outlined in the health care plan. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: May the hon. Member for Wainwright revert to Introduction of Special Guests? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. FISCHER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you, and through you, two members of the Provost school board, Mrs. Betty Varty and Mrs. Diane Homberg.

They have been attending the annual convention in Edmonton, and they came to see how this Assembly works. They are in the public gallery, and I would like them to rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Second Reading) Bill 82 Alberta Cultural Heritage Act MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to move second reading of Bill 82, the Alberta Cultural Heritage Act. The principles of this Bill recognize the respect for our cultural heritage as a profound feature of Canadian life that distinguishes Canada from many other nations.

Loyalty to our country and province is strengthened by our respect for our cultural heritage. Our ethnocultural communities take pride in being Canadians and share in the fulfillment of the Canadian experience we are helping to shape. Our people in Alberta possess a diversity of cultural backgrounds from which they have nurtured the best of traditions. Recognizing this as a fundamental need of people, the province of Alberta has become a strong leader in encouraging cultural expression. It is our belief that cultural heritage is a broad experience.

It includes a willing accept­ ance of different cultural expressions and provides individuals with the opportunity to enjoy community participation asso­ ciated with their cultural heritage. Mr. Speaker, this Bill reaffirms and strengthens the government's commitment to cultural heritage. At this time, it is the only Bill of its kind in Canada. When we speak of cultural heritage, we must recognize that over the past decade a change has taken place in the way we view this concept.

This point was made when the Alberta Cultural Heritage Council presented to me their policy paper entitled New Policy Directions on Cultural Diversity in Alberta. In the early 1970s, when we began working in this area, the primary focus was on programs that preserved the language, arts, and historical resources of ethnocultural groups. This was the appropriate place to

1424 ALBERTA HANSARD November 7, 1984 begin. The success of these programs allowed us to form a strong base for further development. Today, however, groups and organizations are venturing into areas not iden­ tified with the original concept of cultural heritage; they are extending the vision and meaning of cultural expression into the areas of education, business, and social development. As organizations have become more sophisticated in their programming, their needs have changed. This has challenged us to strengthen our traditional programming approaches and to look into new areas of development.

It has been said that Alberta's multicultural society gives this province a strong interest in maintaining and developing international ties. In this Bill we recognize that our eth- nocultural communities have an intimate knowledge of world cultures and languages. This is a valuable asset to our province as we sustain and extend our international contacts for import and export projects. This Bill incorporates the previous Alberta Heritage Day Act, which was introduced in 1974 and generated tremendous community interest. In 1984 , 54 communities celebrated Heritage Day.

This stands in contrast to 19 communities that celebrated it in 1981. It should also be mentioned that this year over 90 percent of those communities celebrating Heritage Day were municipalities with populations of under 25,000 people. In addition to creating a greater public awareness of our ethnocultural groups, these celebrations have a clear economic benefit to communities. The tourism potential of these events could return benefits to communities in terms of money spent on merchandise, transportation, food, and accommodation. It is an important area which we will pursue further. Mr.

Speaker, we know that the range of bilingual programs offered within our school systems was increased over the past years. This increase is also reflected in heritage language programs operated by our ethnocultural commu­ nities. Last year 8,500 students learning 38 different lan­ guages were enrolled in 100 heritage language schools throughout the province. In addition, 688 teachers, predom­ inantly volunteers, were involved in these schools. In terms of operating costs for these schools, a recent survey by my department indicates that for every $1 in government support, the schools themselves raise $5.

These schools have identified the areas of teacher training, development of Alberta-based teacher material, and more adequate facilities as their needs for the future. Support for this extensive commitment by voluntary ethnocultural organizations is an appropriate role for government and is supported in this Bill. Recently the Alberta Cultural Heritage Foundation intro­ duced the Alberta People Kit. We are aware that our Chinese community intends to develop learning resources for use in schools. These projects are indicative of the new initiatives being taken by cultural groups in the education area.

The intent of both these projects is to develop materials that will foster respect for and an understanding of the traditions and values of ethnocultural groups. Mr. Speaker, this Bill supports the efforts of voluntary groups to develop projects that will increase the knowledge and understanding of our cultural communities. The Alberta Cultural Heritage Council has acted as an advisory body to government since 1972. It has recommended such initiatives as Alberta Heritage Day and the heritage language program. The government values the advice it has received from councils over the past decade.

To further enhance the role of the council and to reaffirm its significance in future cultural heritage development, the Alberta Cultural Heritage Council is also included in this Bill. In addition, to allow for even greater participation from the ethnocultural groups and volunteer organizations working in this field, the council is being restructured to include eight regional councils and a provincial co-ordinating committee.

This new structure will enable the council to more adequately reflect the views of cultural communities in all parts of the province and will facilitate exchange of information amongst groups. This Bill also removes the Cultural Heritage Foundation from the Cultural Foundations Act by repealing sections 2(l)(

a) and (2). The foundation, which has been in existence since 1978, has played a major role in cultural heritage development since its inception. Therefore, earlier this year, further funding to the foundation from the Western Canada Lottery Foundation was increased from $480,000 to $1.3 million. Mr. Speaker, this will allow the foundation to increase its level of funding to cultural heritage community projects. The administrative unit in the government charged with the responsibility of administering this Bill will be the new cultural heritage division of Alberta Culture.

Staff of the division will act as advisers to the new council, and the assistant deputy minister will serve as secretary of the foundation in order to facilitate policy and program co­ ordination. The division will report directly to the Minister of Culture. The council's policy paper stressed three areas that ought to be considered in the development of any new initiatives. First, it indicated that any new policy should adopt a definition of culture that is not solely confined to the arts.

Second, it indicated that ethnocultural groups wish to have the opportunity to provide input to government policies and programs. Third, it recommended that any new policy be applied consistently throughout government departments and agencies. Mr. Speaker, this Bill will co-ordinate the work of the council, foundation, and division under one set of policy objectives. It broadens the definition of cultural heritage to allow for development in the social, economic, and edu­ cational areas. It ensures the involvement of ethnocultural communities in future developments.

This Bill, coupled with the work of the cabinet committee on cultural heritage, will ensure that the principles of cultural heritage are respected and encouraged, not only today but for the benefit of future generations of Albertans. Mr. Speaker, I commend this legislation to all members of the Assembly. [Two members rose] MR. SPEAKER: I believe the hon. Leader of the Opposition caught my eye first. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I will be brief I have good news and bad news in terms of talking to the principle of the Bill.

In saying that, I commend the minister and the government, as I did the ministerial statement, for intro­ ducing the Bill. By introducing the Bill, they certainly recognize the importance of multicultural groups in this province and specifically in this city that some of us represent. The comments I make are meant to be constructive criticism in some areas and compliments in others. If I may go through a couple of points, while this Bill is an important Bill that I will ultimately support, I think we have to look at the funding that goes on, because laws are only as good as some of the backup services.

When I look through the

November 7, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 1425 cultural heritage part of the minister's budget, I notice that it receives only 2 percent of the total 1984-85 budget allocated to Alberta Culture. In terms of funding, I point out that the total budget of Alberta Culture has increased by 64 percent over the past five years while the budget of its cultural heritage department has increased approximately 1 percent. I believe it was about $135,000. There has been no increase in the funding provided to ethnic groups by the department in its budget from 1983-84 to 1984-85. Mr.

Speaker, I believe the funding for grants to the ethnic groups was inadequate last year. Perhaps the minister will fight this battle in cabinet. These groups received only 26 percent of the funding they were eligible for under the department's guidelines. It's my understanding that an esti­ mated 1,200 ethnic groups in Alberta competed for $600,000 worth of grants. For instance, there is four times as much in preservation of buildings. I'm not suggesting that pre­ servation of buildings should be undercut.

The point I'm trying to make is that while the Bill is very good in principle in most areas and a step in the right direction, if we are saying that ethnic cultural heritage is worth preserving and that there are special problems there, I'm plugging for the minister to get some more money into that department, because I think it is important. I don't know if the minister said it or not, but in a recent issue of the Ukrainian News a high-ranking member of the department claimed that this is expected to be the first such Act by any province.

I point out to the government that while this Bill is unique and a step in the right direction, there are a couple of other provinces that have similar Bills. Saskatchewan and Manitoba have similar Bills. Manitoba's government introduced its Intercultural Council Act last year. There might be differences, but the point I make is that they have similar purposes. One of the things I like about what they did, which I would like the minister to consider, is that two-thirds of the members of the heritage council were to be elected by ethnic groups — in other words, a decentralization away from the government.

In our own Bill, I think one of the weaknesses is that the members of the Alberta heritage council are to be appointed by the minister for an unspecified period of time. If that's not the case, I'm sure the minister will tell me. I like the idea of elections from the ethnic groups as much as possible, and I think the minister would probably agree. I commend the minister for instituting a cabinet committee on cultural heritage, because I think it's only understandable that if cabinet has a knowledge of what's going on in ethnocultural areas, the response will be good.

This is probably more applicable to the Committee of Supply, but I'm curious as to why, once we went with that idea, we didn't put it in the Act itself. Is the committee is merely a temporary body, or is it meant to be ongoing with the cabinet? Perhaps it might be worth while to look at putting it in the Act. I would also like to commend the minister for expanding the responsibilities of the cultural heritage division into the social, economic, and educational areas. Mr.

Speaker, it is encouraging to note that the government is acknowledging that multiculturalism means much more than preservation of culture, that it has to do with maintaining the basic rights of all citizens regarding their race, ethnic origin, et cetera. Of course, it goes into the idea of providing equal opportunities in education, jobs, social services — the whole broad area. I think the Bill alludes to that very well. Again I commend the minister for that. I hope the minister has some ongoing discussions, though, with her colleagues in Social Services and Community Health, Labour, and Education.

Unless they're on board on some of these things — it may sound good in the Bill, but it's going to take some action. I know you can't do everything in a Bill, but the only other area where I would indicate a serious problem is in terms of the economics of ethnic people. The minister is well aware of this, and I think it's appropriate to mention it in speaking to the principle of the Bill. Traditionally ethnic groups, particularly immigrants, have suffered a dis­ advantage in job opportunities, income, and education. When we go into a recession, it becomes even more severe.

I'm not talking just about Alberta; this is a general trend in North America. For example, in a follow-up study of Indo- Chinese immigrants — which I think the government is aware of, because it was conducted by the provincial government — we find that 22 percent of these people are unemployed. That's double the provincial average. Of course, we've had a lot of immigrants to the province, and this does create a problem. Mr. Speaker, a lot of these things come down to dollars and cents, but the department has $620,000 in its settlement services to deal with unemployment.

I believe they have a staff of two that's being increased to three. I'm sure those people are excellent, but no matter how good they are, I don't think they will have the resources to deal with some of the major problems. Again, I recognize that some of this is outside the minister's department. But because she is providing the leadership with this Bill and recognizing that multiculturalism is much more than preservation of culture — it's dealing with all the other problems — I just point it out and hope she will lobby her colleagues as much as possible.

In my own riding and, I expect, in the hon. minister's riding, there are some serious problems. In saying that, Mr. Speaker, I conclude participation in second reading by saying I intend to support the Bill. I think the comments I have made are worth while. Maybe I'm the only one who does, but I hope the minister will take them under advisement in her role as Minister of Culture. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in rising to participate in the debate on Bill 82, the Alberta Cultural Heritage Act, I want to take a few moments to express my strongest support for the actions being proposed by my colleague the Minister of Culture. I want to make note of the provisions in the legislation, for the regional councils in particular, which provide for a very marked decentralization of the process by which the cultural heritage of this province can flow to the government by way of advice.

As one of the Members of the Legislative Assembly from southeastern Alberta, from the city of Med­ icine Hat, I'm delighted to note that there is to be a regional council from southeastern Alberta; that the membership on that council, along with the other seven councils throughout the province, will contain one representative elected by each ethnocultural group in the region; and that additional rep­ resentatives will be elected by voluntary organizations work­ ing in the cultural heritage area, of course with the provision that the number of representatives from that category will not exceed one-third of the number of elected ethnocultural representatives, some ministerial appointees, and a staff member from the cultural heritage division, who will be ex officio.

There will be a provincial co-ordinating committee

1426 ALBERTA HANSARD November 7, 1984 which will contain the chairman or a designate from each of the eight regions, which include Fort McMurray and district, Lakeland, Peace River, central Alberta, southwestern Alberta, and southeastern Alberta. In that way I think it will be amply shown that the process now being proposed for development of cultural policy is very much decentral­ ized. If I may, Mr. Speaker, I want to tell members of the Assembly a little bit about the cultural background of my particular constituency. We know there are people who came to Alberta with many ethnic backgrounds.

The 1981 census disclosed that in Alberta as a whole, 42 percent of the people claimed a British background. In the case of Medicine Hat, that number is 39 percent. Five percent in Alberta claimed a French background. In the case of Medicine Hat, that figure is 3 percent. The second largest group were people of German origin: in the province of Alberta, 11 percent; in the city of Medicine Hat, 32 percent. This is a remarkably large number, if I may put it this way, of non-British ethnic backgrounds.

I think it's useful to examine the experience of my community in the over 100 years of its existence in this province and, in doing so, to remark upon how well the groups, despite their backgrounds, have been able to work and build together a community which I believe is an honour to represent and which indeed can serve as a model for other communities in this province.

I believe our province can serve as a model for other provinces in Canada and that Canada can serve as a model for the world, in terms of being able to accommodate within its bounds people of great diversity in their ethnic, cultural, and religious back­ grounds. I want to point out as well that in the census there is a category entitled "multiple origins". That is 12 percent of the population in Alberta and 13 percent in the case of Medicine Hat. I'm not so sure which category I fall into, Mr. Speaker. My family came to Canada, to New Brunswick, over 200 years ago from Yorkshire, England.

During the course of those years, there have been a number of additional ethnic backgrounds added to my makeup. Perhaps I come from a multiple origin. I have German, French, and I think it's appropriate to say English, Scottish, and Irish, and who knows what else along the way. I think that serves to make me a Canadian and, I hope, a good one. Talking about Medicine Hat, of course the original native peoples were in our area long before any settlement came from Europe. In my community there is a Metis organization.

As a matter of fact, I had the pleasure to represent the Metis group in Medicine Hat as their solicitor. Interestingly enough, most of them can trace their origins back to the native peoples who fought in the battle of Little Bighorn in the United States. [Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair] Then there were waves of immigration which came with the railway, primarily people of British stock at first, followed shortly thereafter, before the First World War, by people of German origin who were brought to this country by the promise of land and freedom.

That particular group of German settlers was expelled from Russia by the czar as part of a program in those days, and I must say they became very hardworking citizens of southeastern Alberta. Many of them settled in Medicine Hat and make up part of that 32 percent of the population which is described as having a German origin. Following the Second World War, there was another large in-migration of people of German origin to southeastern Alberta — and of many other groups from Europe and some, although not many, from Asia.

In Medicine Hat, as in Alberta, we still have additional peoples from new areas of the world that we had not previously accommodated within either the community of Medicine Hat or Alberta or really Canada. Of course I refer to the most recent wave of immigration, which came about as the result of severe conflicts in Pacific Rim countries.

We have a very active Society for Immigration Settlement in Medicine Hat, which is by and large a voluntary organization but which of course receives funding in part from this government to provide an opportunity for new immigrants to find a place in our society, to learn our way of life in Alberta, and to be fully integrated as members of our society. At the present time, Mr. Speaker, there are 25 identified organizations of ethnic nature in my community. I have sent each of them copies of the legislation and the ministerial statement of November 2.

I have asked them for their comments on the legislation and the ministerial statement, and I have asked them to be sure to participate in the regional council which is being proposed in the legislation. I expect that they will do so. I want to make note of another aspect of culture. I want to pay particular tribute to the role played by the churches in the process of developing this province. The people who came at the very first — and we are a very young province and a very young country — brought with them strong religious beliefs.

In this province we have a diversity of religious beliefs which is quite remarkable. I think it is fair to say that we should pay tribute to those people who founded the original churches and, through those church organizations, helped preserve the culture of the people. In Medicine Hat, because of the large German-speaking popu­ lation, there are still churches which provide services in the German language, particularly for the older members of the congregation. Now, even more importantly, they are providing language training opportunities for the younger members of the church organizations and the community.

I think it is a very important part of this legislation that we are trying to encourage the retention of languages. I was born in Camrose, and for a number of years grew up in a small town called Meeting Creek. It was in large measure a Scandinavian community. I only regret that I did not learn to speak Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish, which were all spoken freely in the community. I regret that I did not learn those languages, and I regret as well that I am not able to communicate — very well, in any event — in German, as I should be able to, coming from a community such as Medicine Hat.

The churches are performing a very vital function today in providing that type of language training, and I want to pay tribute to those people who are doing so. As well, I want to point out that there is a foundation for the regional council in Medicine Hat, the Folk Arts Council, which provides the opportunity for people of cul­ tural groups to come together. On an annual basis, they provide the most outstanding dinner of the year, which is always sold out long before it goes on because of the variety of foods that is provided.

I always look forward to attending those very delightful evenings put on by the Medicine Hat Folk Arts Council. In addition, I think it would be useful to pay tribute to those organizations which have provided facilities. One I will cite in particular is the German Canadian Harmony

November 7, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 1427 Club. The club was founded 25 years ago. In 1985 they will celebrate their silver anniversary. I am delighted that the Minister of Culture has already accepted an invitation to attend the 25th anniversary celebrations, which will be held on June 15, 1985. That facility is located in Redcliff in the constituency of Cypress. My colleague and I have had many opportunities to be there, as well as to entertain our colleague the Minister of International Trade when he was Minister of Culture. They have provided a facility there for the whole community to utilize, and it is.

I think that type of involvement demonstrates better than almost anything how the ethnic organization can provide that vitality and different texture of life for our people in southeastern Alberta. I look forward to that particular anniversary. Many of these organizations, including the German Canadian Har­ mony Club, provide entertainment, cultural activities, music, dance, and theatre. All these things make Alberta a better place in which to live.

One thing I want to pay particular attention to in my remarks — and I want to conclude very soon — is the fact that all these organizations come from a base of volunteerism. I believe that, along with the family of course, to be one of the fundamental building blocks of Alberta life and society. The role of the volunteer — a person who, together with his friends, neighbours, and associates, gives freely and voluntarily of his time and effort on behalf of others. I really think we often ignore or perhaps take for granted the importance of the volunteer in our society. It disturbs me, Mr.

Speaker, when I hear people claim that that must be done by government. In fact in many, many cases the services are better provided and action in a neighbourly way is often better done by volunteers who do it out of the goodness of their hearts and not because the government requires them to do it. I want to mention a couple of things which have an impact on my responsibilities as a minister of the Crown for Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs.

In dealing with the government of Canada, I think it is important, and I recommend to all members of the Assembly, that we take an interest in the role of the citizenship courts that are carried out throughout the whole of Alberta. To attend a citizenship court ceremony is really quite an experience. I regret that I cannot do so often enough.

It's a thrilling experience to see those people who have come to this country seeking freedom and an opportunity to grow, to build for themselves and their families, stand and swear allegiance to our Queen and our country and thereby accept the responsibilities of citizenship. I encourage the participation of ethnic organizations in encouraging their members to become Canadian citizens at the earliest opportunity. I hope our ethnic and cultural organizations are prepared to do that.

It is my strong and firm belief that in order to enjoy the benefits of Canada, all who come here should become citizens of Canada when they are qualified to do so. The other aspect I want to mention is the fact that Alberta is engaged in twinning relationships with the province of Heilongjiang in the People's Republic of China, with Hokkaido prefecture in Japan, and with Gangweon-do in the Republic of Korea. In my travels I have been able to visit and meet with representatives from those countries. Mr.

Speaker, it has opened my eyes to the great cultural traditions that are so much a part of the lives of the people of those countries. When they come here and when we exchange with them, I feel that we are doing something very important to establish understanding and a feeling of warmth between the peoples of those countries. As the minister responsible for those twinning relationships, I urge members of this Assembly and all Albertans to become familiar with those relationships and to encourage them to grow and develop.

Let me say in conclusion that as people come to our shores, to Alberta, and to the community I represent, I ask them to leave behind the ancient grievances, agonies, hurts, and pains they may have experienced with respect to people of other ethnic backgrounds and bygone wars and disturb­ ances. I ask them instead to bring with them their love, faiths, tolerances, and respect for family life.

I must say that no matter where I travel in the world as part of my responsibilities in this government, I find that people respect the family as a basic building block of their societies and bring that feeling with them when they come, as well as respect for their neighbours and their neighbours' property. In doing so, all of us as residents of a young province and a young nation have a golden opportunity to build a place for our children which can serve as a model for the world. There is so much we can learn from each other and, in so doing, we can set a good example of nationhood. Mr.

Speaker, I believe that we are indeed fortunate to have a province and a country dedicated to the principles set out in the Alberta Bill of Rights and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and carried forward in action in the creation of this Act now before us in this Assembly. I urge everyone's strong support for its principles. MR. SZWENDER: Mr. Speaker, it's with a great deal of pleasure that I also rise to participate in the debate on second reading of Bill 82, the Alberta Cultural Heritage Act.

I would like to begin by thanking the minister for her extremely dedicated efforts on behalf of the ethnocultural groups of Alberta. She not only does her job but she becomes a part of it. I know that on a number of occasions when she has asked me to represent her at various functions, she has been spoken of very highly. I think she has done a tremendous job in cementing various ethnic groups through­ out the province and in the understanding that is necessary for such a diverse culture as ours to work and function in harmony.

If we look closely at the Bill, in many ways it affects every Albertan, save maybe those of native origin. Every Albertan at some point in their past had to come as a new immigrant to this province, whether it was as a British Empire Loyalist 200 years ago, as a French habitant to New France, or as a postwar immigrant. If we could trace our ancestry and roots, all of us would find that at some point our ancestors were new immigrants to this province and country.

As such, all of us should feel affected and indeed honoured by such a Bill coming before us and enabling the various ethnocultural groups of this province to further enhance their identities. There are many aspects of the Bill that could be addressed. I will just look at a few. Certainly the minister has addressed many important points of decentralization, particularly the creation of regional councils, which will ensure proper and full representation for all cultural groups throughout the province.

Maybe there was a lack of participation due to the limited numbers of people who get on the previous Alberta Cultural Heritage Foundation. Just for the benefit of members, I would like to speak briefly on the type of society Canada is and compare it with the society of the United States. In America they refer

1428 ALBERTA HANSARD November 7, 1984 to their society as the American melting pot. The concept is that new immigrants reaching that country and finding their homes there would try to become Americanized and assimilated as quickly as possible, and thus become good Americans. I can try to compare that to baking a cake. You can put all the ingredients on a counter — the milk, eggs, sugar, flour, and all the other ingredients — and they're all individually visible. You throw them into a bowl, mix them all up, and bake it. Out comes a cake, and you can't identify those various individual ingredients.

We know they're there, but they're not individually available. That's sort of the American melting pot: throw everybody into a big pot, mix them up, open the spout, and out comes an American. In contrast, we in Canada look at ourselves as the Canadian mosaic. The word "mosaic" is very important in understanding the makeup of our society. A mosaic is something that is made up of many individual pieces that contribute to a larger total picture, yet can clearly and visibly be identified on an individual basis. To look at it another way, we could look at the mosaic as a large jigsaw puzzle.

You have to painstakingly put all those pieces together and eventually, when all the pieces are in place, you have a complete picture. That complete picture is a Canadian, yet if you look closely at that picture composed of the pieces, you can see the lines where each one is separated. Remove one or two of those pieces — or if you've bought a jigsaw puzzle and put it together and found that one or two pieces are missing — and somehow the picture isn't complete. I view our Canadian society as that type of mosaic. It's composed of many small pieces.

Probably every nationality in the world is represented here in Canada, and all those put together comprise the bigger picture of ourselves as Canadians. We have to keep that in mind, because we have enhanced and promoted that identification of the various ethnocultural groups in Canada, and particularly here in Alberta with the strong support of this government. There is just one area I would like to diverge to slightly, because it has been quite disturbing to me and, I'm sure, other members of our Assembly. This is an idea that originated in the United States and made its way to Canada.

I'm referring to affirmative action. I don't want to get deeply into the subject, because I know members have their own views on what affirmative action is, but it originated in the United States by giving so-called disadvantaged groups an equal shot at the benefits of society in the United States. Somehow it has been adopted by groups here in Canada. We look at ourselves as a very egalitarian society, everyone being equal. There are no class or caste distinctions. No one is predestined into a particular role because of where their parents came from or their ethnic or cultural background.

We believe that all have the opportunity to rise and make their way in our society based on their abilities, their efforts, and their commitments to this society. That should be the criterion upon which any person in our society determines their position. There should not be an automatic right to a position because someone comes from a particular socioeconomic or ethnic group, because that is not a privilege. It is a right that is earned through hard work and dedication.

So if I may call it a sinister aberration that was developed by our previous federal government — which, I have to say, in many ways did do some very, very good things with respect to the multicultural aspects of this country — affirmative action was one area they began to play with that I felt very uncomfortable with. Hopefully, when we're referring to ethnocultural groups in this province and this country, the basis or criterion by which we judge people will be upon merit and upon their efforts rather than upon any predesignated or predestined place.

Every ethnic group, when it first arrived in large numbers in this country, may have felt at some kind of disadvantage. If it was the Irish in the 1840s, they may have been at a disadvantage to the earlier immigrants of British descent. We could go on down the line. Whether it's the Chinese, the Ukrainians, or the Germans, any new group making its appearance in this chosen new home of theirs had to feel at a disadvantage because they didn't have the language or the education.

But if they put all their fundamental values to work, then very quickly they could take their proper place in society and call Canada their home. Mr. Speaker, since my election to this Assembly on November 2, 1982, I've been looking for an opportune time to express my own ethnic background. It has obviously had an impact upon me, as it would have for any member that has a close attachment to their ethnic ancestry. My parents emigrated from Poland to this country immediately after World War II. They chose this country for reasons of freedom.

I just want to add a little anecdote about how Canada, and particularly Edmonton, happened to become the home for my father. He started as a soldier in the Polish army, which was under the command of the British, and fought in Italy. At the conclusion of the war, the Polish soldiers were asked whether they would be returning to Poland. Knowing what had happened to Poland, where it had been overrun by the communists, my father felt he could not return to a country which he had fought to free but which had replaced one tyranny with another.

So he got into the group that said "We'll go to Canada", even though he probably didn't know much more about Canada other than as a place on the map. Other soldiers had the choice of going to New Zealand, Australia, Great Britain, or wherever they thought they might wish to make their future homes. They used the old army discipline on them. They were all put into various groups. Those that had chosen Canada were simply stood at attention, and their commanding officer went along the line and said: you 100 get off the train in Halifax, you 100 get off the train in Montreal, you 100 get off the train in Toronto.

Thus, as the train made its way across Canada, they were scattered from Halifax, where they disembarked, right across to Vancouver. They were thrust into their new homes without any prior knowledge, and it was basically on the command of the military to disperse them equally throughout Canada, as the Canadian government agreed to take these people in. So it's really interesting how the fate of history can determine a person's future.

Certainly my father didn't know what he was getting into when he got out of that CN station, and the Macdonald Hotel was probably the only building that reached more than two or three storeys in 1947. But he chose Edmonton as his home; he made a commitment to it. I'm proud to say that I was born in Edmonton, and so was the rest of my family. I don't see any reason to leave this city, if not this province. Certainly it's a strange quirk of fate that has brought me to stand in this Legislature at this time. The Polish nation has always had a rather difficult history.

I don't want to use that as an example more than others, but I am familiar with that particular ethnic group. I'm very active in it and have always participated in the

November 7, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 1429 various cultural activities of the Polish community. Certainly they have been very supportive of me as a member in this Assembly. I am told that I'm the first Polish-Canadian member in this Legislature — that's subject to correction — [interjections] of the most recent generation. However, I still take pride in recognizing my Polish-Canadian ethnic origin. As such, I believe the Polish-Canadians who have made Canada and Alberta their home have contributed greatly to making this the very wonderful society that it is today.

In my opinion there are two ways of promoting a full understanding of any culture or multicultural aspects of a society. Those are travel and education. Certainly if a person travels often enough and goes to enough different places, he will get a much better view of how the world functions outside his own enclosed, homogeneous society. Alberta is a landlocked province. It has a population of 2.3 million and, although we have a great diversity of cultures, we are still really isolated from the densely populated parts and much older cultures of the world.

But a person travelling would soon recognize the very great differences that are apparent in this world. I have to give another example of my own experiences. As a young person growing up, I always used to hate bagpipes. It seemed that any time you had a parade or at halftime, you had to listen to those squealing, squawking things called bagpipes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame. MR. SZWENDER: I only mention that to bring the story to a conclusion. A few years ago I had the fortune of visiting Scotland and spent quite a bit of time there. I must say that my view on the bagpipes has changed dramatically.

I didn't realize how important the bagpipes, which are closely identified with Scottish people but are also used widely by the Irish, are to that culture. Some of the presentations we saw, some of the performances, some of the history we learned about the bagpipes, really made me feel that the bagpipes were almost the heart of those people. In so many ways they personify that culture, the strength and fierce pride those people have in their nationalism as Scottish individuals.

So for myself, until very recently with that experience of travelling to Scotland, I have greatly changed my views in just that one really narrow aspect. I'm sure that could be expanded to include many different cultures and the very peculiar things that other cultures may not understand about them. All it is is really coming to know them, becoming more familiar with them. I remember that in 1967 I went on my first trip away from home. I was only 16, and I was sent off to that big, ugly, fearsome eastern Canada. It was described in many different ways, but it was the first time I had been away from home.

I was participating in a Boy Scouts jamboree for Expo 67 for Canada's 100th birthday. At this Boy Scouts jamboree we had scouts of every ethnic origin, and it really was a tremendous opportunity for the first time to be able to share experiences with scouts of so many different cultural backgrounds. Since that time I have always taken a keen interest in learning as much as I could of different ethnic groups, because that is really the key to understanding and co-operating with them.

The other aspect of understanding multiculturalism in our province, and it should be well promoted by the minister's Act, is the whole field of education. In this province we have a very strong support system for bilingual education. I believe we have at least 10 different languages, other than English, which students can learn as a second language in a bilingual form. That's a strong commitment by this government to allow parents to educate their children in that way. I'd like to point out that just recently the Committee on Tolerance and Understanding produced their fourth discus­ sion paper.

This one is called Intercultural Education. I'd have to be quite honest, Mr. Speaker, and say that the first three discussion papers left a little lacking, to be polite. But this paper I find extremely beneficial, extremely useful and well thought out, particularly considering the Bill we are discussing today. The committee has looked at all aspects of how the educational system can help promote better understanding in our society.

As a teacher by profession, I've found that it's extremely important for young people to get a better understanding of each other so that they can eradicate those prejudices which they bring to school. Chil­ dren are not born or brought up prejudiced, except through their homes. It's the parents who instill any kind of prejudice, bias, or discrimination that they may exhibit at a later age.

So when they do come to school at age six or whatever, by grade 1 much of that may already be firmly entrenched in their minds, and it's very difficult as a teacher to try to reverse those kinds of feelings children may have and exhibit through various forms of behaviour or cruelty to their fellow students. This report — and I urge all members to look at it very carefully — certainly deals with the problem and the question with respect to education. I'd like to make reference to a couple of paragraphs in the report which I think are very fundamental and essential to a better understanding of this Bill.

From our legislative commitment in the Alberta Bill of Rights and the Individual's Rights Protection Act, to the record of achievement of the Alberta Cultural Heritage Council, the Cultural Heritage Branch, the Alberta Human Rights Commission, and thousands of examples of day to day commitment by individual Albertans, we can see progress towards the building of a positive environment which will overcome the waste of human resources, the human tragedy and the inner hurt that are the consequences of prejudice and discrimination.

Certainly that is a basic principle and fundamental that I think all Albertans would endeavour towards. Certainly the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs touched upon new immigrants, new Canadians coming to this country, leaving behind the prejudices which may have existed in their homelands — in the old country, if we can refer to it that way.

With reference to education specifically: The emphasis is now shifting to education as the realization grows that governments have a responsibility to ensure that society is understanding of and responsive to the rights of all individuals and groups who make up our cultural mosaic. Secondly, Intercultural education exposes children and adults to the similarities and differences that exist among cultures and provides opportunities for people to learn about each other through experience. Mr. Speaker, it wouldn't hurt just to add the Individual's Rights Protection Act

preamble: "WHEREAS it is recognized in Alberta as a funda­ mental principle and as a matter of public policy that all persons are equal in dignity and rights without

1430 ALBERTA HANSARD November 7, 1984 regard to race, religious beliefs, colour, sex, physical characteristics, age, ancestry or place of origin;" These are very important principles to keep in mind as to the commitment of this government and the many impor­ tant pieces of legislation, as well as the support this government has given. In conclusion, with reference to the report, I would like the minister to consider, in conjunction with work with the Minister of Education, that in Ontario there is a multicultural policy.

I just want to read the introductory paragraph: "The Ministry of Education acknowledges the respon­ sibility of preparing all pupils to live in our multicultural society and in an increasingly interdependent world. Accordingly it strives to ensure that the three principles of Ontario's multicultural policy — equality, freedom of access to public services and facilities, and right to maintain one's cultural heritage — are operational in all schools." I know that is practised, but maybe it should be enshrined in a more positive and permanent way. Mr.

Speaker, I know there are a number of other members who would like to participate in the debate, so I will quickly close by once again thanking the minister on behalf of the many constituents of Edmonton Belmont that I serve. I certainly think I have a very large and numerous collection of various cultural backgrounds represented. These ethnocultural individuals have all treated me with great accord and hospitality. I've had the pleasure of visiting many of them in their homes throughout my work in the constituency.

So on behalf of my constituents, I'd like to say thank you to the minister in as many ways as possible. There's always a danger of leaving somebody out when you're saying thank you, but I've tried to include as many of the ethnic groups as I could in saying thank you in their native tongues. On behalf of the Yugoslavians — and there's always a danger in saying "Yugoslavian" because my Croation and Serbian friends always seems to have a divergence of opinion on which they are — it's hvla. My Lebanese friends would say shukran.

My Italian friends — I have many of them, and I find them to be particularly friendly when I'm hungry, with the many fine things that their kitchens can produce. I've also been to many Italian homes, and each one produces the best wine in the world, as claimed by the maker. However, on behalf of my Italian friends, I'd like to say grazia. Our Chinese friends — and this is the mandarin version of Chinese; apparently there are more — would like to say sheh sheh. It used to be that when you were a young student and there would be a new immigrant arrive in class, he'd ask you the key words to say to the teacher.

Boys being boys would always teach him "thank you", except it always had a four-letter connotation, which he quickly found out. I hope my friend here on the left has not given me something else for "thank you" which would embarrass me or have me thrown out of the Assembly. My Japanese friends and constituents would say aragoto. The German community would say vielen dank.. The Nor­ wegians, for lack of more Scandinavian representation on this list, would say takk.. We have many Ukrainians here who could maybe add to this and pronounce it in a better way — gakyuo. I even have a couple of Hawaiians, who say maholo.

Finally, on behalf of the Polish community, I would like to say diekuje. MR. WOO: Mr. Speaker, I listened with considerable interest to the culinary exploits of my hon. colleague to my right. All I can say, to put it very simply, is that I am glad he is a teacher and not a cook. I'm not sure whether he was trying to sell me Ukrainian fortune cookies or Chinese pyrogies. Mr. Speaker, at the outset I would like to indicate my support for Bill 82. I commend the hon. Minister of Culture for her courage, initiative and, most of all, her confidence in the people of Alberta as responsible citizens of Canada.

One of the most difficult tasks I've had to address, both as a member of this Legislature and as a Canadian, is to attempt to define the meaning of multiculturalism and equal­ ity. It seemed to me that each time I felt I had a definition, it changed. I have come to the conclusion that neither multiculturalism nor equality can be defined in absolute terms. I think this is because of the nature of the human environment that we live in. I think ours is a continual evolution of a very diverse society. I do not believe we will reach a consensus on these

definitions for quite some time to come, nor do I think we should concern ourselves too much about that. Mr. Speaker, what I think we should be concerned about is how we reach those

definitions. I am reminded of my very early experiences. I often reflect upon them, and I like to believe I have been well guided by them in my service both to my constituents and to Albertans when I take my place in this House. I am reminded of those institutions left as a cultural heritage by the early pioneers in southern Alberta, who came as immigrants, who came by choice from the Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Germany, other countries of Europe, the United Kingdom, and the Orient. These institutions have persevered, thrived, and grown.

They have come about as a natural consequence and remain today as a legacy from those early pioneers. Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to remember that such achievements came about without the benefit of legislation. I am reminded of the emphasis of each succeeding immigrant family to learn more about us as Canadians, our way of life, our activities, our schools, and our social events. They wanted to become good Canadians in a land that promised freedom and opportunity. They did not ask for more and, in return, received no less. These were my neighbours; these were my friends.

Today things are slightly different in that we require everything that affects us to be in writing. Maybe that in itself is not so bad, because we have become a fairly complex society. Paramount in the writing of such legislation is our new Constitution, our Charter of Rights, our own provincial Bill of Rights, and the Individual's Rights Pro­ tection Act. Within such legislative frameworks, we are given certain rights, privileges, and freedoms: the freedom of speech, the freedom of assembly and, yes, even the freedom to dissent.

Whether you attend a church, synagogue, temple, or mosque, you are given the freedom to practise the religion of your choice. I recognize that legislation attempts to be universal in terms of those concerns it wishes to address. But as a legislator I also recognize that this is indeed difficult, if not impossible, in some cases. I see Bill 82, with particular reference to

section 2, as a means of giving added meaning to specific concerns and interests of both this government and the citizens of this province. I am excited by the challenge it offers. But I think it is important to recognize that when we legislate for or against something, Mr. Speaker, the kind of legislation which comes forward can indeed cut both ways. We have seen evidence of this over the course of the history of this nation. I think it is important that

November 7, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 1431 we attempt to understand and know that Bill 82 can be self-defeating if it is not exercised with wisdom, under­ standing, good judgment, and a sense of justice, for it is there to serve all citizens of Alberta regardless of race, religion, colour, or country of origin. Mr. Speaker, Bill 82 reflects that very substance in the leadership of this government in the person of the Premier of this province. It is a tribute to the dedication and commitment of the first Minister of Culture of this province, the hon. Member for Edmonton Avonmore.

It is a promise and a vision for the future of multiculturalism for our present Minister of Culture, the hon. Member for Edmonton Centre, and the sensitivity and understanding of all Members of this Assembly and the dedication of all those who serve in her department. Mr. Speaker, it is important that Bill 82 will first of all foster understanding of our differences as Canadians who came from different countries but will build upon common strengths as overall citizens of Alberta and Canada.

I think one of the best examples to reflect the philosophy of Bill 82 can be found in a very well-known commercial that all of us have seen and heard, wherein Canadians of different racial origins find common agreement on a single issue. No matter what language you put it in, it's: boy, what a feeling. MR. ZIP: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to enter briefly into this debate. I listened to the excellent presentations on this Bill made by other hon. members. They've really said it all, and there's very little new to contribute to this debate.

But there are a couple of areas that should be touched on and should add clarification to this whole question of support for cultural heritage in Alberta. I wish to express my strong support for the hon. minister's Bill. It's an excellent Bill and certainly one that indicates the very good understanding of both herself and her depart­ ment and this government on diversity, not only from a cultural standpoint but from a religious standpoint as well.

I only hope the various cultural groups that make up this excellent, beautiful province of ours take full advantage of the opportunity created for them under this Bill. By this I mean that they themselves put real efforts into supporting their organizations and their churches or temples or whatever they believe in from a religious standpoint and not expect government bureaucrats and government money to be the sole mainstay of that particular group or organization. With­ out the input of themselves and their members, in terms of personal effort and personal financial contribution, this will not stand.

Furthermore, it's beautiful to teach languages to children. I myself, being of Ukrainian background, have had that experience. I've spent years instructing my own children in the Ukrainian language. Of course, I'm a third-generation Ukrainian, and I know the language extremely well. I read and write and know the different dialects of the Ukrainian language as well. But I made a lifetime effort to learn the language and keep it up. You don't just teach somebody a language and then expect that person to be proficient in it, because there has to be a follow-up.

Once they leave home and get out in the world, they say, who needs all this extra baggage of all these extra words to keep up the process of retaining the language. Language is a living thing; it changes. I remember how English itself has changed from the time I was a boy to the present time. That's true of every language. I think we're doing a lot of dreaming if we think that just by setting up programs we're going to achieve these things that retain the languages of our native countries, because it's a difficult thing. I'm not a pessimist, but I believe in being a realist as well.

Turning to the United States, we often like to congratulate ourselves and call ourselves a mosaic society and the United States a melting pot. Well, I have been to virtually every city in the United States. I've been in the various com­ munities, whether it's Chicago, where there are very exten­ sive Polish and Ukrainian communities, or Philadelphia, where there are very extensive Italian communities, or New York, where there are extensive Jewish and Ukrainian and virtually every nationality in the world.

I was amazed that those people are retaining languages and having churches and organizations of their own without government support, probably doing just as good a job and doing just as well as we are here in Canada with all kinds of government support. So this is where the question of the individual will comes in, individual input without the bureaucrat and the government involvement, and of course the heavy, heavy expenditure out of the taxpayer's pocket, which is the bottom line.

We're here to represent the taxpayer, who at times diverges and doesn't agree with what we're doing and is looking for value for his money. With these provisos, I wholeheartedly support the min­ ister's Bill. Thank you very much. [Motion carried; Bill 82 read a second time] [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that at 5 o'clock today we are to adjourn the Assembly in order to proceed with Commonwealth Parliamentary Association business. I move that we call it 5 o'clock. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Assembly agree? HON.

MEMBERS: Agreed. [At 4:55 p.m., the House adjourned to Thursday at 2:30 p.m.]

1432 ALBERTA HANSARD November 7, 1984