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May 12,

SOCIAL

SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Tom Osborne, MHA for St. John's South,

substitutes for Lisa Dempster, MHA for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.

The

Committee met at 6:05 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Littlejohn):

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Social Services Committee.

I welcome representatives from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation this evening to our Committee.

I understand that Mr. Osborne is substituting for Ms Dempster.

OFFICIAL :

Gerry is here for herself.

CHAIR:

Gerry is here for herself,

yes.

MS ROGERS:

I am actually substituting

for myself.

CHAIR:

Welcome, everybody.

Minister, I am going to have the Committee introduce themselves first and then I

am going to ask you to introduce your staff and we will get started hence.

Tom, if

you want to start.

MR. OSBORNE:

Tom Osborne, MHA for St.

John's South.

MR. FLYNN:

Stelman Flynn, MHA for

Humber East.

MS ROGERS:

Gerry Rogers; I work for the

good people of St. John's Centre.

Susan

Williams, Researcher, just had to quickly step out.

MR. CORNECT:

Tony Cornect for the

beautiful, cultural District of Port au Port.

MR. LITTLE:

Glen Little, MHA for

Bonavista South.

MR. POLLARD:

Kevin Pollard, MHA for Baie

Verte Springdale district.

MR. LITTLEJOHN:

I am Glenn Littlejohn, MHA

for Port de Grave.

Minister, if you want to introduce your staff or have them introduce themselves.

We will start with you, Sir.

MR. JACKMAN:

Clyde Jackman, Minister

Responsible for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

I will

let my staff introduce themselves as soon as the red light comes on.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Tom Lawrence, Interim CEO, Housing Corporation.

MR. KENDELL:

Dennis Kendell, Executive Director of Regional Operations.

MR. AKER:

Dave Aker, Interim CFO.

CHAIR:

Just a reminder to the

gentleman that before you go to speak, make sure your little red light is on and

for the Committee members as well, so we get it all recorded downstairs.

Minister, you have fifteen minutes for opening remarks and we will start from

there.

MR. JACKMAN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will

not take fifteen minutes, but I do want to make some brief commentary.

This is my first stint working with the people from Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing. I have said on

several occasions, I do not think there is a more recognized group across the

Province, rural and maybe within the city, than Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing. The suite of programs that

they have, I think people are more than familiar with them.

Also, I

know, having been in this portfolio for just a number of months, the cases that

come forward are often very complex and have their challenges; but, I have to

say, while we as MHAs sometimes inquire on behalf of our constituents, we may

not always get the result that we want, what I have found with the staff who are

down there is they are more than committed to the cause they are carrying out on

behalf of the people of the Province and will try and find every way possible to

accommodate clients. So I want to

thank them for that.

A few

of the programs that we have in place, we were pleased to announce the $68

million affordable housing unit this year.

Over the past ten years, we have had approximately 1,117 of these new,

affordable units across the Province.

The latest agreement will see $27 million invested in that over the next

four years. This is one year out

now and another four years.

The

remaining $41 million will go into the Provincial Home Repair Program.

We continued support for that as well.

Again, we are supporting the Residential Energy Efficiency Program for $3

million. It is a staggering number

when you look at it. There is $10.1

million in Rent Supplement Programs.

This year it will go to assist some 1,882 households.

There is a new project that I have asked for: the Rent Supplement

Program. There is $10.1 million

going into that this year. There is

an additional $150,000 this year.

So the total rent supplements for the Province this year is 1,882.

Also, I

know, Gerry, you will be interested in this one.

We are going to run a pilot for the portable rent supplement.

I believe at this particular point we have twenty-two or twenty-four that

we have put in place. My thought on

it is we may have someone who wants to live in a particular neighbourhood

because of family support or something of that nature.

So what we can do now is we can support them in that subsidy, and there

are rules and guidelines and stipulations and codes that they would still be

expected to meet under Newfoundland and Labrador and Housing standards.

Hopefully we can work more towards this, and this pilot will set us in a

specific direction.

Supportive Living, again, there is another $5.3 million going into that; $2

million investment in the Home Modification Program.

So the work that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing is doing in the

Province is commendable. I make no

bones about it; the investment that we have put into it over the years has seen

major improvements in wait-lists.

As a matter of fact, these folks will tell me that anybody who applies this year

for the Provincial Home Repair Program will be served within the year.

So, when you can speak to that, that is a positive piece of news.

So, we

will open the floor for your piece of work, Mr. Chair, and we will take her from

there.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

Tom,

you have fifteen minutes on the clock, and you have opening remarks.

I will ask the Clerk to call the first subhead, please.

CLERK (Ms Proudfoot):

Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR:

The Clerk has called 1.1.01.

Tom.

MR. OSBORNE:

Thank you.

Considering there is only one appropriation, I guess you are open to general

questions. Otherwise, it is going

to be a very short (inaudible).

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, that is right.

I expected there would be questions around programming, yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay, I appreciate that,

Minister.

The

budget this year is almost $8 million shy of what it was last year.

During the lockup, it was explained to us that there was a piece of land

in Southlands that they were hoping to make up that amount from.

Can you elaborate on that a little more?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, there are four pieces

of property out in Southlands and they can speak to it more and what we have

decided on doing is selling two of those.

Well, that is basically it.

The premise of that is to sell four pieces you would probably up the market or

whatnot, so these are the two pieces that we have decided on.

I think the value of the other two pieces of property is around $8

million.

OFFICIAL:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes

MR. OSBORNE:

So, you are selling two this

year with the hopes of collecting about $8 million and make up

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, it is $7.7 million.

MR. OSBORNE:

Seven point seven million

dollars.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

All right.

I just

have a general question on land. I

know years ago, in addition to Elizabeth Towers and Churchill Square those

were revenue generators for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and helped to

subsidize the low-income housing.

In addition, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing generated a great deal of revenue

from land sales and land development, and have kind of moved away from that.

there any expectation that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing will get back into

land sales and land development in order to regenerate some of the revenue

needed to maintain the properties that you have and potentially build additional

properties?

MR. JACKMAN:

Do you want to speak to

that?

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Tom.

Mr.

Lawrence.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, thank you. That is a good

question.

Back in

the 1990s we were directed by government to divest all of our interests in all

the land that we owned. Even prior

to that, we were directed to divest ourselves of all of our market rental

housing like Elizabeth Towers, Churchill Square, and Pine Bud.

We had units in Marystown, Stephenville, and Goose Bay.

Yes, we

were directed to get out of land development, but we developed all of Mount

Pearl and we developed all of Cowan Heights.

They were profitable.

Anyway, it was the wisdom of the day, by the government, for us to get out of

that business.

So over

the years we have been selling off these blocks of land.

We do not develop them. They

are sold, but the infrastructure is in place.

It is raw land in the sense that the developer, whoever buys it, has to

put in the roads, the local servicing, that kind of thing.

We have

been selling those pieces of land now since the 1990s.

Like the minister said, we have four pieces left out in Southlands.

We sold the last one in 2011-2012.

It was a bigger piece and I think it was $13 million that we got for

that.

This

piece now, we are putting up two more blocks, 7A and 6.

That is what we call phase 7A and 6.

We expect to get around $6 million or $7 million for that.

We have two more to go probably in a couple years' time because you do

not want to flood the market all at the one time.

We have no direction to get back into that business.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

So that question is probably more appropriate to the minister.

Is there any intention on government providing direction I know that

Powers Pond and, I think, even part of Southlands and Cowan Heights were planned

developments. Contractors made

money, housing made money, it subsidized the operations of housing.

MR. JACKMAN:

I can tell you that at this

particular point there is not.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Are you able to provide any sort of breakdown on the one line item that

is there, the $34.5 million, and give some indication as to where that is

appropriated.

MR. JACKMAN:

The breakdown on the

dollars?

MR. OSBORNE:

Yes.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Actually

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. LAWRENCE:

We are one line in the Estimates, but our budget is actually $118 million.

The grant is $34.5 million, but we get $50 million-$60 million from CMHC

every year, annually. We have

rental income of around $20 million, and then the rest we have some interest

income and land sales, of course including Southlands this year, of around

MR. JACKMAN:

I could

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

I can probably even provide

you with that list, if you wanted it.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

That would probably save time if we could get it.

MR. JACKMAN:

That would save time

(inaudible).

CHAIR:

And

MR. JACKMAN:

Oh, sorry about that.

CHAIR:

Obviously, minister, if we

are providing to one party, can we provide it to both, so that way

MR. JACKMAN:

I have no problem with that.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Are you

able to provide a list with that of the third-party agencies that have been

provided grant monies through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing?

MR. JACKMAN:

Absolutely.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

How

many employees are currently directly employed through Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing?

MR. JACKMAN:

I am going to take a stab

now. There are about 420?

MR. LAWRENCE:

Four hundred.

MR. JACKMAN:

Four hundred.

I missed it, 400.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Is that 400 full time, or is that full and part?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

They are full-time employees.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Are there any part-time employees as well?

MR. LAWRENCE:

We just have a couple. We have a

couple of seasonal, but the vast majority are full time.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Is there any direction given to Housing to eliminate any of those

positions through attrition?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, there is.

CHAIR:

Minister, can you repeat

that please to the mic.

MR. JACKMAN:

Oh yes.

We are looking at six positions per year, for five years for a total of

thirty.

MR. OSBORNE:

Are you able at this point

to give an indication as to what those positions are?

MR. JACKMAN:

I cannot right at this

particular point, but we have a number of people who are up for retirement.

We will be taking a look at that, in consultation with the CEO and staff,

and then we will make determinations on that.

MR. OSBORNE:

Are those positons included

in the numbers that were provided in the budget, or are they over and above?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, they are included in the budget.

It is around $650,000 this year for those six positons.

MR. OSBORNE:

No, I mean the positons that

were identified as being eliminated through attrition in the Budget Speech by

Minister Wiseman.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Not that I can remember. They would

have been included in the overall numbers that he was talking about, the 1,400.

They would have been included in that.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. JACKMAN:

Going through the Budget

exercise, we offered up to find a number of positions.

Once that determination was made, they will be within that thirty.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Besides

the attrition positons, are there any other positions that will be affected

through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, any other layoffs?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Nothing, no. We are not

anticipating any other layoffs other than that.

MR. JACKMAN: I

will point out that one of the things I think these people have been very good

in is that if there are ways to find efficiencies, or if there are positons they

feel do not need to be refilled, they have taken initiatives on their own

previous to this.

MR. OSBORNE: So

the positions directed by government, the six positions per year, are there

plans for other positions besides what you have been directed by government to

reduce the size of Housing to?

MR. JACKMAN: I

think within these numbers that will be our expectation.

I do not think we would expect them to go beyond that.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

How

many offices does Housing currently have throughout the Province now?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

We have seven: the Avalon Region, Marystown, Gander, Grand Falls, Stephenville,

Corner Brook, Goose Bay, and a sub-office in Lab City.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Are there any plans to reduce the number of offices or consolidate

offices?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Not at this time, no.

MR. OSBORNE:

Are you able to provide a

wait-list by region for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing?

MR. JACKMAN:

Numbers you mean?

MR. OSBORNE:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

Do you want us to tell you now or provide them to you?

MR. OSBORNE:

You can provide them, that

is fine, unless you have them.

MR. LAWRENCE:

They are very, very detailed.

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Sorry.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is it.

The teacher is there now. We

have to say our name.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Am I supposed to say my

name?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, you have to.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Sorry.

CHAIR:

You are, but we are okay.

MR. JACKMAN:

I have been trying to nudge

you though.

CHAIR:

They understand down below.

We are good.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Okay, sorry.

MR. JACKMAN:

He has been naming you every

time.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes.

Yes, I

have the list here, but I can certainly provide it to you.

MR. JACKMAN:

I think it would be the best

thing, yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

If you could provide that.

MR. LAWRENCE:

It is very detailed by region. It

breaks it up

CHAIR:

Tom, you are on.

MR. LAWRENCE:

It breaks it up also by the

criteria in the wait-list.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

When can we expect a copy of that, Minister?

MR. JACKMAN:

We will get Tom and them on

it as soon as we leave here this evening.

I will see if I can have it to you within the next I will say we will

have it to you before next week is out.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. JACKMAN:

If there is a problem with

that I am sure they will let me know afterwards if that is not enough time.

We will get it to you as soon as we can.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Is the income cut-off still $32,500?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, it is.

MR. OSBORNE:

That is Island wide.

It is different than Labrador, I think.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes it is.

MR. OSBORNE:

What is the amount in

Labrador?

MR. JACKMAN:

It is $65,000.

MR. OSBORNE:

Do they apply now to all

housing programs, PHRP, REEP and so on?

MR. JACKMAN:

Are we what?

MR. OSBORNE:

Those income thresholds, are

they consistent through all housing programs?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, they are, except the HMP. I

think that is $45,000 because that is for disabled people and they need a little

bit more leeway there.

MR. OSBORNE:

What would that be in

Labrador?

MR. LAWRENCE:

I think it is $50,000.

I think

it is $50,000 in Labrador, but I can certainly check to make sure.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

There

is $8.8 million for the Provincial Home Repair Program.

Can you tell me the average grant amount?

It used to be $5,000. Is it

still at $5,000?

MR. LAWRENCE:

It is around $3,900 now.

MR. OSBORNE:

Three thousand and nine

hundred dollars.

MR. LAWRENCE:

It is after dropping down.

The maximum is $5,000, but the average is around $3,900.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

How many grants were distributed under this program over the past budget

year?

MR. LAWRENCE:

There were 1,400.

MR. OSBORNE:

Do you know what the

wait-list is for that program right now?

MR. LAWRENCE:

Actually, a number of years ago it was almost 4,700.

Over the past six years the Province has invested an extra $4 million a

year, so that is $24 million in extra funding we had for PHRP.

Currently now, we are serving the current year wait-list.

If you apply this year, you will get a grant this year.

MR. OSBORNE:

Perfect.

We cannot complain about everything that government does.

MR. JACKMAN:

I told you that you cannot.

MR. OSBORNE:

I will come back with some

tomorrow.

MR. JACKMAN:

I figured you would.

MR. OSBORNE:

The budget also mentions

$250,000 for the program in Labrador.

Why is the Labrador and Island amount separated?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

That is for PHRP?

MR. OSBORNE:

Yes.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, in Labrador, that is all the take-up that we can get down there.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. LAWRENCE:

It is not a very popular program in Labrador.

We have done everything to try and increase its popularity, but nothing

seems to take effect on it.

MR. OSBORNE:

The partnership with the

Nunatsiavut Government; $700,000 to assist low-income homeowners in Inuit

communities. That was in 2014.

Is there a similar program this year?

MR. LAWRENCE:

No, that was just a one-time

program. We cost shared that with

the Nunatsiavut Government, $350,000 each.

It was a special one-time program to help them with some terrible houses

they had, I think mostly in Nain.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

CHAIR:

I am going to hold you

there, Thomas, and I will come back to you.

MR. OSBORNE:

I still have eleven seconds.

CHAIR:

That is okay.

MR. OSBORNE:

I have one more question.

CHAIR:

Okay, one more.

Go ahead.

MR. JACKMAN:

Go for it.

MR. OSBORNE:

Is the Housing Corporation

subject to the landlord tenant relations act?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, we are.

Yes, we follow that act.

CHAIR:

Gerry.

MS ROGERS:

Thank you.

Can I

just ask, you follow it, but are you bound by it though?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR.

LAWRENCE: Yes, we are.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

There is a mythology out there that you are not.

MR. LAWRENCE:

No we are, just like any other landlord.

MS ROGERS:

Right.

It is interesting that mythology is out there.

I want

to thank you very much for coming this evening.

I know everybody is so busy.

I just

came back from Corner Brook and was part of the All-Party Committee on Mental

Health. We met with managers in the

regional health authority. We met

with service providers. We met with

social workers and with psychiatrists.

We met with community groups providing services for people with mental

health and addictions. We met with

people living with mental illness and we met with their families.

Without

exception, everybody talked about the housing crisis.

They talked about the need for affordable housing, plus then also the

need for supportive housing. The

desperation, particularly for people with complex needs, is astounding.

They talked about the same that we hear in all of our districts, in terms

of some of the larger areas; people living in horrible, horrible boarding house

situations, people coming out of if they have been incarcerated then being

released. Or people who have mental

health issues, people on Income Support, particularly single people whose Income

Support is so minimal.

Housing

is such an important foundational piece as to whether someone you all know

that, I do not mean to be preachy.

OFFICIAL:

No.

MS ROGERS:

Whether someone can get

well, whether someone can stay well, whether a senior can avoid going into a

personal care home or a long-term care home, if they have enough supports to

live in their homes.

oftentimes think that when I am standing in the House perhaps I am exaggerating,

but then when you go out on the streets and into community centres, church

halls, and hear people's stories or phone calls, you know it is not an

exaggeration. I do not believe the

situation is getting better. I do

believe it is more challenged. I

know that your staff deals with a lot of these issues.

You have such a wonderful, dedicated staff.

With

that in mind I am going to ask you a few questions.

One of the questions I am going to ask is: Why are you selling the last

four pieces of land? We know what

is happening across the country, across the continent, almost globally in

helping people with complex needs, helping people with addictions, with mental

health issues or homelessness is that the approach is housing first.

Dr.

Ladha, our senior psychiatrist in the Province, the chief forensic psychiatrist,

said his people, the people he sees cannot get well if they do not have a place

to live a safe, decent place to live.

Why sell this land now when we know that no one is making land anymore?

We do not know what the future is going to hold in terms of that whole

issue of housing first.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

One point is that we are not

selling all of the land. The second

point is that the number of units you can speak to the number of units that we

would have. Plus, if we can get

more into the portable subsidies that we are talking about, hopefully we would

have enough houses to meet the needs of those who are seeking them.

We have

adopted the OrgCode report.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

One of the things that I

will agree with you, it just seemed to make common sense I do not know why we

did not get there before, you had to work your way to earn a place.

MS ROGERS:

And you could not.

MR. JACKMAN:

This report says that the

very first thing you need is safety, security, and a place to lay your head each

night. Now let's start to put the

supports around you to work out the issues that you have, but first and foremost

is finding accommodations.

This is

a policy piece and I do not think we should put it up on Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing officials to answer on policy

MS ROGERS:

Yes, but I am happy to hear

from them.

MR. JACKMAN:

but from our perspective,

we will continue to work through the OrgCode.

I asked the Committee to have the report done and back to me before the

end of April, and they did submit it last week.

I am going to take a look down through it and then see where we move with

it, but it is not something I want to sit on for a number of months.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

question is, in the sale of this land are there any conditions the other thing

is we know that no one is really building rental units aside from

MR. JACKMAN:

Building what?

MS ROGERS:

Rental units, aside from the

groups, organizations who are availing of the housing initiative where they are

building supportive units.

MR. JACKMAN:

Your question

MS ROGERS:

My question is nobody is

building new rental units. We have

not seen an increase really in the stock of rental units in the Province.

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing is one of the main landlords.

Then we have seen some additional units that come through the housing

initiative where groups and organizations are building some of them are

supportive housing units, some are straight but affordable units.

It is a drop in the bucket, it is very important, and the work is great.

To talk

about the rent supplements, which I think is really important, do you foresee

when we look at our aging population that the rental stock that is going to be

necessary is going to be out there?

MR. JACKMAN:

With the affordable housing

initiatives that we are making, like I said there are some 1,700 and we are

continuing to build those from a seniors' perspective, I think that is there.

I think one of the things we have to take a look at is the difference

between what we are seeing in especially the urban parts here in St. John's and

Labrador as two unique areas that require special consideration and what the

demand is in other parts of rural Newfoundland.

There

is a demand all across the Province, but the demand in these two areas that I

mentioned are much higher than they are anywhere else in the Province.

I guess what we have to do is work with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

to see how we can continue to find units that are suitable through Newfoundland

and Labrador Housing and meet the clientele that you are talking about.

MS ROGERS:

It is the same in

Clarenville and it is the same in Corner Brook, the demands

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, it is those bigger

areas.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

In the

sale of the land, are there any conditions on what would be built on that land,

whether or not depending is there going to be housing developments?

Will there be any affordable units?

Are there any conditions at all on the sale of the land?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, actually the last time we sold a block in 2011-2012, part of the condition

of the sale, the developer had to keep 100 of the lots for we will call it

modest housing, 800 to 900 square feet.

We are looking at doing the same thing again probably this time as well.

These would be intertwined and blending in with all of the rest of the

houses.

MS ROGERS:

You are not looking at

housing density, a requirement for any kind of housing density?

MR. JACKMAN:

No.

MR. LAWRENCE:

No.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

We have

the total budget of the corporation for 2015.

Why was the provincial revenue greater than the $770,000 that was

budgeted for 2014? Did you see

greater revenue than what you had estimated for 2014?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWERENCE:

Is that in rental revenue?

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

Was that rental revenue?

CHAIR:

Where are you, Gerry, or

what are you referencing?

MS ROGERS:

In the Grants and Subsides,

the provincial grant.

The

budget on the line item 10, Grants and Subsidies, was $41,494,600 and then it

was revised to $42,265,000.

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

That was to cover off a general salary increase that employees had received for

last year so they put that into our budget this current year, 2014-2015.

MS ROGERS:

Great, thank you.

Aside

from the properties that we just spoke about, where there any properties sold in

2014-2015 land or properties?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

No.

MR. LAWRENCE:

No.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

MR. JACKMAN:

Between the two of us, we

got no out.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

What

vacant properties are left? Are

there properties that have been sort of decommissioned, that are on the chopping

block?

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

This number changes almost daily, but at the moment we have about 128 vacant

properties across the Province; twenty-six are in rural areas where there is not

demand; ten are being prepared for tender as we speak; twelve

MS ROGERS:

What does that mean, Dennis,

for tender for repair?

MR. KENDELL: The

tender documents to get the work done are being prepared by our engineering

division.

MS ROGERS: Yes.

MR. KENDELL: We

have another twelve that has already been a work-in-progress type of thing.

We have fifty with some major repairs and structural mould issues, these

sorts of things, but twenty-eight of them are in an area of Marystown where

there is absolutely no demand on our wait-list.

We have another twenty-seven, in addition to that, where the work is

ongoing as well. We have a total of

three that is waiting for inspection to get the work done.

CHAIR: Okay,

Gerry, can I hold you there?

MS ROGERS: Can

I ask one quick question to wrap this one up?

CHAIR: Yes, you

can.

MS ROGERS: Are

there any properties that you are thinking okay, we are going to sell then; we

are going to move them on?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

Not other than the two that we have

MS ROGERS: The

two pieces of land.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS ROGERS: Any

other buildings, units?

CHAIR: Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

No, we have not decided at this point, but we do have some areas of the Province

where there is no demand. The

question we have to ask ourselves is: Do we continue to try to keep them from

falling down and spending money on them, when we have no demand?

So that is the decision.

MS ROGERS: What

areas would they be?

MR. JACKMAN:

Just as an example, down in my area I have had a discussion with them.

They have between thirty, I believe

MR. KENDELL:

Twenty-eight.

MR. JACKMAN:

twenty-eight pieces of property in Marystown right now.

There is no need for the uptake so the decision is going to be: Are we

going to keep them or not? In all

likelihood, we will not.

CHAIR: Okay.

I am going to hold Gerry there.

MS ROGERS:

Thank you.

CHAIR: Tom.

MR. OSBORNE:

Thank you.

Still on that theme, I know Housing has some buildings in

Pleasantville that are not considered

low-income, but fixed-income

rentals. What are your plans for

those buildings?

MR. JACKMAN:

We have been having some discussions about that one.

We have not finally decided on it one way or the other.

I know one of the things that have been raised is that you get some

people who are living in those who would be above the thresholds of what we have

for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

We are taking a look at it.

MR. OSBORNE:

Are there any plans to sell those units?

MR. JACKMAN:

Not at this particular moment. We

are just having discussions around it.

MR. OSBORNE:

Is there any indication as to what the discussions are, what your focus is?

MR. JACKMAN:

No. It is just that it has been

brought to our attention that this is Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

property. There are people there

who well I guess our question is, can they afford to pay more, or do we want

to do something different? So it is

a broad discussion at this point.

MR. OSBORNE:

What is the budget this year for the Rent Supplement Program?

Is that an increase, or it remains the same, or a decrease over last

year?

CHAIR: Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

No, it is the same as last year. It

is around $10 million.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay. How many rent supplements

does that $10 million cover?

MR. LAWRENCE:

It covers 1,882.

MR. OSBORNE:

Can you be exact?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, 1,882. It went up 150 this

year.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay. What is the average rent

supplement? What would you call the

maximum rent supplement?

MR. JACKMAN:

The maximum

CHAIR: Tom.

MR. JACKMAN: Oh

okay.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

No, you go ahead, Tom.

CHAIR: I am

sorry.

MR. JACKMAN:

No, Tom can go ahead.

MR. LAWRENCE:

The maximum rent that a landlord can charge is $800.

So the way it works is the client will pay 25 per cent of their net

income, and we pay the difference between whatever that is and the $800 maximum.

It is around the same as our own units.

Around $350 a month is the average income, $323.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Sorry, it is the average rent for the clients.

MR. OSBORNE:

What is the amount in Labrador?

Last year it was $104,000. Is that

the same?

MR. JACKMAN:

For what?

MR. OSBORNE: In

Labrador.

MR. JACKMAN:

Okay.

CHAIR: Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

That is the same, yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

The cut-off in Labrador would be the same as for Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing?

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

The City of St. John's has

taken a direction for example, there is a development proceeding in Shea

Heights. They have put out the

tender. It was a purpose tender

where the builder had to ensure that the properties were affordable for home

purchase, and to ensure that they are below market average for purchase price.

Does

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing have any hopes of taking on that direction so

that you are not only a rental agency, but you are looking at perhaps, with

some of the land banks you have remaining that you will look at purpose driven

so to make it affordable for homeowners to get in below the market average?

MR. LAWRENCE:

We have not up to this point, but I guess anything is an option to look at.

For that there is another program, the down payment assistance program,

which is designed to specifically help that class of people making between

$40,000 and $65,000.

MR. OSBORNE:

I was going to ask you a

question on that as well actually.

What the city is doing and it is great in the city.

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing operates throughout the Province.

It is one thing to have your down payment, but if you cannot afford the

mortgage it is another thing.

What

the city is doing is ensuring that these units are below market average, which

makes it affordable for people to get in.

They are also looking at some assistance through the developer on down

payments as well. It is just a

suggestion to government and/or Housing.

There are two types of housing demand; one is low-income rentals, and the

other would be low-income ownership.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

We will take the point under

consideration. We will have a chat

on it.

MR. OSBORNE:

With the down payment

assistance program, can you tell us some more about the rollout of this program

and some of the details?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, I will speak to some of

it. We are hoping that it will not

be too long before we will roll it out.

What we have done is set a threshold for housing costs, for example.

In St. John's we know that you are going to pay more to get a modest

house than you would be if you were in I will not say Rocky Harbour, but

somewhere on the Northern Peninsula.

So we have set out a maximum threshold for the price of a house.

Now, I

wonder, should I give you details, or will we do it in our news release, in our

announcement? You should come to our announcement.

MR. OSBORNE:

I will not announce it on

you.

MR. JACKMAN:

You come to our

announcement. We will give you all

the details then.

All I

will say to you now is that we are going to be rolling it out very shortly.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. JACKMAN:

It is a good one.

When I sit and look at somebody I will use two examples.

Two individuals who might be working at a department store, combined

salaries and paying their rent; this program could help them purchase a home and

it would be theirs.

Somebody used an example today; a young professional who had finished, making

$42,000 a year, just coming out could not get a loan through the bank.

Therefore this will allow somebody who is coming out of school or

something to avail of it.

The

term that we like to use is that it is a hand up, not a handout.

That is one you are going to be hearing me say a fair bit about; it is a

hand up, not a handout.

MR. OSBORNE:

When you say a hand up, not

a handout, are people expected to repay their down payment?

MR. JACKMAN:

There are going to be terms

around it, but I think people will be more than pleased with what we are looking

at.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

talked a little bit earlier about the Home Modification Program.

Can you tell me what the budget is for that this year?

MR. JACKMAN:

The Home Modification

Program; it is $2 million.

MR. OSBORNE:

Can you tell me how many

grants will be provided under that?

MR. JACKMAN:

Do you know how many?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Approximately 300.

MR. JACKMAN:

Eighty-three per cent of

those are seniors. That impressed

me.

MR. OSBORNE:

What was that percentage

again?

MR. JACKMAN:

Eighty-three per cent.

CHAIR:

I kind of wish this place

was this quiet all the time.

MR. OSBORNE:

Yes.

Usually when I speak it is.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, right.

MR. OSBORNE:

What percentage of people

really wants to hear what I have to say?

What

percentage of Housing's current stock is now considered to be fully accessible?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

I just have to look up the number there now.

Currently, out of our housing stock, we have about eighty-three that are

fully accessible. We realize it is

not a lot, but these units are old and they are very difficult to make

accessible without, basically, tearing them down and rebuilding them.

We do

have another 551 that we call visitable.

That means you have zero-step entry, accessible bathrooms, doors are

wider so that somebody who is disabled, for example, in a wheelchair could visit

your home. We have 551 of those.

In the

Affordable Housing Program there is another 223.

We do not directly own those, but they are still available through the

Affordable Housing Program: 223.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is a condition of

constructing those, that there is a number that has to be accessible.

If you get ten, there is a number that has to be accessible.

MR. OSBORNE:

That is the program where

Housing partners with contractors and provides affordable housing?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

Do you know what the wait

time is not counting the fact that your application expires after one year so

there is only ever less than a one-year wait, what is the true wait time now for

somebody who is applying for Housing; and, piggybacked on that, what is the wait

time for accessible housing?

MR. JACKMAN:

I would like to have Dennis

speak because we had this discussion just a couple of days ago (inaudible).

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

First, I want to make a point; we made some changes recently with regard to the

applications that would expire after twelve months.

We do not allow people with complex needs, people with disabilities, and

there is another group I am losing here

OFFICIAL:

Victims of family violence.

MR. KENDELL:

Victims of family violence.

We do not allow these to expire anymore.

We felt that was important that we would not ask them to reapply.

With

regard to the wait-list, it is next to impossible people will quality for a

home based upon the need, not necessarily first-come, first-served.

Having said that if someone is a victim of family violence, they would

get a house faster than someone, for example, who does not have any medical

issues or any other problems, so we have criteria we do it based upon need,

but we do know that we placed about 880 people last year, and our wait-list is

less than that.

Technically, they could all receive a home with the twelve months depending upon

their need, if you understand what I am trying to say.

CHAIR:

Tom, I am going to hold you

there so save your thought.

Gerry,

do you want to pick it up from there?

MS ROGERS:

Thank you.

I am

very interested in the wait-list as well in terms of the category of seniors,

people who want a one-bedroom unit or more than that, and it has always been

hard to get a true picture because people drop off the list.

Often, they do not realize they have dropped off the list.

At least those are the kinds of calls that we get.

The

expiry is twelve months from your application, from your applying, not the

calendar year or the fiscal year?

Okay,

great. I guess it is a little bit

hard then to get that true picture.

I mean, if it was within the calendar year, then it would really be easier.

As much information as we could get in terms of the types of units people

are looking for, the size, the region, the age or the different categories, that

would be great to have.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, we can get you that.

MS ROGERS:

Do you keep stats on how

many people dropped off, expired, and then reapplied?

Is that a stat that you have?

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

We do keep all of the stats. I do

not have them in front of me. There

are a number of things that happen with a wait-list.

In 2014, we had 241 people who refused the unit that they were offered,

even though we say to them upfront that you choose the part of the city where

you want to live. When we do offer

the home to them, 241 have turned it down, which is quite a substantial number.

Our

wait-list at the moment is 830 people.

We placed 531 in our own units last year and 354 in rental supplements.

There is a natural turnover in both the Rent Supplement Program people

do move from that program as well.

They also move from our own houses so we placed well, the math, 531 and 354.

That is what we placed last year and we have a wait-list of 830.

Again,

like I had said earlier, it is very difficult to give a timeline on how long

someone would be on the list depending upon what their needs are.

MS ROGERS:

There was some talk of

trying to streamline because some people are on the wait-list for St. John's

Housing, some are on the wait-list for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing has

anything been done about that?

MR. KENDELL:

We do not share our wait-list; there is a privacy issue.

We do not say to them that you cannot be on one or the other.

MS ROGERS:

No, I would not think you

would want to do that.

MR. KENDELL:

They may be on both, that is true, and we know that a lot of them are.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. KENDELL:

Again, the most important change will be made in regard to the expiring of the

people who drop off is that we do not the complex needs of the homeless and

the disabled groups, they do not expire anymore.

MS ROGERS:

Right.

I imagine for many of those, they are looking for one-bedroom units,

possibly two-bedroom units, and those are the fewest number of units that you

have, yes?

MR. KENDELL:

Yes, we have as policy also that says that if someone is a one-bedroom

requirement say it is a single individual

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. KENDELL:

we will allow them to move into a two bedroom, but we will not allow them to

move into a four bedroom or a three bedroom.

MS ROGERS:

That makes sense, yes.

MR. KENDELL:

There are reasons for that, by the way, social reasons and so on.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. KENDELL:

Having said that, we do our best to move them up at least one bedroom if we do

not have because our stock, you see, was built in the 1950s for the most part,

1950s and 1960s

MS ROGERS:

Big families.

MR. KENDELL:

and 1970s when families were a lot bigger than what they are today.

So we do have a demographic problem in regard to our units.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thank you very much.

there any plan to build any new social housing units this year?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

No.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

I think

we have asked this for the 2015 budget breakdown, can we have a breakdown of

the different programs as well, like the public rental housing, maintenance,

modernization

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS ROGERS:

Great, thank you very much.

So, are

you in the process of renovating units to make them smaller?

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

We were given a million dollars a few years ago government gave us some money

to look into the costs of doing that.

We did a project in Corner Brook where we took two homes that were side

by side and we changed it into a fully disabled unit on the bottom, and two

single units on the top. We did a

similar situation over on

MS ROGERS:

Campbell Avenue too, didn't

you?

MR. KENDELL:

Mundy Pond Road, that area, where we had a duplex with two three-bedroom units,

and we now have four: two up on top and two on the bottom now.

I will say that is extremely costly.

It ran us somewhere in the area of $350,000, something like that, which

is quite expensive but it is an option.

Like I say, it would take a considerable amount of money to do so.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

Yes, I guess sometimes it is easier to build.

Do you

have a list of how many people were granted a rent sup, but were refused by the

landlord?

MR. KENDELL:

We may be able to get the numbers for you.

What happens is when we sign an agreement with the landlord, the landlord

has the right to refuse, I think it is, two, and then they have to take the

third one.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. KENDELL:

If the landlord continues to

refuse, we can drop that agreement with that landlord.

We do have some that are refused by the landlord.

MS ROGERS:

Yes, I would love to know

how many.

MR. KENDELL:

I can see if we can get the number.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

That would be great. Thanks.

The

maximum rent, then, for any unit that is with a rent supplement is $800, is it?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, it is.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

How do you handle rent increases?

At what point can landlords say okay, I want to raise the rent?

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

The landlord has the right to raise the rent, but I think it is only just once a

year under the Residential Tenancies division.

That is how it is regulated.

The cap

is $800. The problem with that is

if they do go to $825 or $850, then, of course the client has to pick up the $50

that is over and above the $800.

That does create a little bit of a problem, but we find that the market right

now is beginning to correct itself.

That happens of course. There are a

lot more units that are vacant in the city now.

The vacancy rate in the city now is a lot higher than what it was a

couple of years ago. So it may look

after itself anyway, but we watch it very, very closely.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

Just personally too, this is

a concern of mine that here we were a couple of years ago and everything was

just up here. We are going to have

to take a look at raising that level, but I think like Dennis has said, right

now we are seeing a softening in that.

If it gets to that point again we may have to reconsider.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

The

pilot project, the pilot portable; how will that work?

MR. JACKMAN:

Who wants to speak to that?

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

What we are doing is we have gone down through our wait-list of people who are

waiting for what we call in situ.

They are already living in a place where they want to stay to live.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. KENDELL:

We found very quickly and

this is why you run these pilots, you want to find out how it will work that a

lot of the people do not want to stay where they are.

They want us to find a place for them, and a better place for them in a

lot of cases.

We did

find twenty-three I think it was, at this point in time, who we did subsidize

exactly where they were, in the home that they were.

We did the inspection on the property to make sure that it met the fire

codes and the life safety items.

Once that was good to go, then we signed the agreement with the landlord.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, particularly, in

situations where a spouse has passed away.

MR. KENDELL:

Yes. It can work that way.

In order to get the twenty-three we did go through a considerable number

more than that. It was something

like seventy-five in order to get twenty-three who did not want to stay where

they were, they wanted to move somewhere else.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

I am going to hold you to

that one, Gerry, and I am going to go back to Tom.

MR. OSBORNE:

How many applications were

approved last year?

MR. JACKMAN:

For?

MR. OSBORNE:

For housing.

Applications received and then approved.

MR. JACKMAN:

For rent supplements?

MR. OSBORNE:

No, no, for Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing.

MR. JACKMAN:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Around 800. It runs between 719 and

820, we will say, on an average.

Those are the tenants we place in the run of a year.

MR. OSBORNE:

No, no, not placed,

applications that you have received.

You have reviewed the application and said, yes, we are going to put you

on the wait-list.

MR. LAWRENCE:

We do have that number. We can

certainly get the number. I cannot

remember now, I cannot remember exactly what it is.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

You are looking for the

number of applicants.

MR. OSBORNE:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

Okay.

I will get the staff to get it for you.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

How many are on file right now, on the wait-list at the moment?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

There are 830.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Can you

tell me what the budgeted amount is for the REEP this year?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

REEP is $3 million.

MR. OSBORNE:

Just going back to the

applications that expire and people who are dropped off, I know that is a cause

of frustration for applicants and it is a cause of frustration for MHAs.

A lot of times, applicants fall off the list and are not even aware they

have fallen off the list.

Just to

give an example, I placed a call two weeks ago to find out where somebody was on

the list. They said, still nothing.

They did not inform me that their application was going to expire on May

7. We put a call in again today

because their circumstances changed and were advised that their application

expired on May 7.

Housing had informed me I have authorization to make a call on their behalf

that their application was about to expire, I could have had that file rolling.

To find out that we called, literally, a couple of days before it expired

and we were not informed, and then a couple of weeks later find out that the

application expired two weeks ago, then I have to go back and explain well, they

did not tell me I am sorry, they just did not tell me to a frustrated

applicant.

there any way that, if an MHA is authorized on the file, we can be automatically

informed? You must be computerized

and automated enough that the person who is authorized to inquire on behalf of

those individuals can be given even a month's notice that those individuals are

going to have to reapply again.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

I will take that under

advisement and I will speak to staff to see.

I imagine with clients and likewise versa, we may have people who are

applying to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing who may find something and would

not notify these people. There are

complications on both ends, but we will have a discussion and see.

MR. OSBORNE:

Absolutely.

When we place a call and three days later the application expires, and

you guys could not tell me three days prior to it expiring that it is going to

expire, that is clearly not good enough.

MR. JACKMAN:

We will have a discussion on

that and we will see if there something we can do.

MR. OSBORNE:

The Affordable Housing

Agreement we spoke a little bit about that earlier there was $68 million

over five years I believe was the agreement?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, it is.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MS ROGERS:

Sorry, I missed that.

CHAIR:

Sixty-eight point five

million over five years the Affordable Housing Agreement.

MR. JACKMAN:

Sixty-eight million over

five years.

MS ROGERS:

(Inaudible).

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

Stop cutting into my time,

Gerry.

MR. JACKMAN:

Hey, we got them fighting

with each other

MS ROGERS:

(Inaudible).

MR. JACKMAN:

Here we go.

MR. OSBORNE:

Where are you locating the

new affordable housing units?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, there is an

application process it goes through, and there is a criterion, and they are

placed all across the Province.

There is a list of approved projects we can supply that to you.

MR. OSBORNE:

So you can provide us with a

list of

MR. JACKMAN:

Unless there is some

OFFICIAL:

That will be coming out in the news release

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, right.

What happens in the process is they get conditional approval.

Once they come back and make the conditional approval, then we will be

doing an announcement, and all of the approved projects will be in that

announcement.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. JACKMAN:

So you will be able to get

that.

MR. OSBORNE:

All right.

There

are no approved announcements to date?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, all that is sent out is

a conditional approval. They put in

an application; you have to meet these conditions.

Once they come back and meet the conditions, then we do an overall

announcement, and that will be coming before too long.

MS ROGERS:

(Inaudible).

MR. JACKMAN:

When?

Probably within the next month or so Dennis knows the date.

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

No, I do not know the date, because the conditions of the approvals sometimes

can take it is financing, for example, environmental issues, and sometimes it

can take months for them to get their conditions to the approved state.

So, some of them may be ready soon.

They may have their financing in place already.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

This is a shared partnership

between us and the federal government.

So, we have an indication from the federal government that once we get to

where we think we are comfortable with it, we will do that; but it is like

Dennis said, we are not going to wait eight months if there is one or two that

is outstanding. We will give it a

bit more time and then we will do the overall announcement.

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. OSBORNE:

What is the breakdown on the

50-50?

MR. JACKMAN:

What do you

MR. OSBORNE:

Is it 50-50, the

federal-provincial?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

It is?

Okay.

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, it is 50-50 for the full $68 million.

So, half is the Province and half is the federal government, yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

The partner-managed housing,

can you tell us a little more about that?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

There are three components to it.

One component is groups or projects that we subsidize directly.

There are about 1,000 of those across the Province.

We have some with the City of St. John's, Humber Valley seniors, and

Marystown kinsmen, are some examples, and Charwood Legion Manor in Carbonear.

We call

these partnered managed. They are

run by a volunteer board. What they

do is they will charge the rent based on 25 per cent of their net income and

then whatever their operating cost is above that, we will pay the difference.

We subsidize them, basically, 100 per cent.

We also

have 395 co-op houses. These have

been on the go for years

MR. OSBORNE:

Three hundred and

ninety-five you said?

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, 395. They were all built by

CMHC and back when the devolution agreement was signed back in 1997, we took

over those, but we do not have the same relationships with the co-ops.

They are more independent.

We actually just give them a grant of a 2 per cent rate down on their mortgage.

Then we

have what we call the federal portfolio.

This is a hodgepodge of all kinds of projects like Saint Luke's Home,

Agnes Pratt they are mostly nursing home beds.

Again, for us, our main involvement there is to collect their mortgage

payment and forward that to CMHC because they all have mortgages with CMHC.

They are further removed again.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

So the

1,000 units that are partner-managed units throughout the Province, are they

included in the 5,500 units?

MR. LAWRENCE:

No, they are separate.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

What is

the budget for partner-managed housing?

MR. LAWRENCE:

The total budget is around $9 million.

MR. OSBORNE:

Is that funded under the $68

million housing agreement?

MR. LAWRENCE:

No, that is completely separate.

Actually, a lot of it is funded under the Social Housing Agreement.

That is another agreement we signed with CMHC back in 1997.

CHAIR:

I am going to hold you

there.

MR. OSBORNE:

Now, Gerry owns me about two

minutes.

CHAIR:

Okay, you will get them back

in a little bit.

Gerry.

MS ROGERS:

The pilot project, the

portable rent supplement, the rent supplement goes to the landlord, not to the

tenant who pays the landlord; so the rent supplement then is attached, in fact,

to the unit rather than the tenant having a rent supplement where they can go

where they want to go.

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, that is how the program works.

MS ROGERS:

If Ms Smith is under this

program and then Ms Smith passes away, the rent supplement then stays with the

unit that she was in?

MR. LAWERNCE:

No, we would take that back then, unless we had somebody else to put in there.

MS ROGERS:

Right.

Say, Ms

Smith was not part of the portable one and Ms Smith was in a rent supplement but

is not part of the portable one, and she passes away, that rent supplement stays

with that unit?

MR. LAWRENCE:

It is a one-year agreement with the landlord.

MS ROGERS:

The portable one or the

regular one?

MR. LAWRENCE:

The non-portable.

MS ROGERS:

The non-portable.

The portable one, I imagine, it is a one-year agreement too.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes.

MS ROGERS:

I guess, in fact, it is kind

of not really, totally a portable rent supplement program, it is more of there

are some that can be allocated

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, it is not a rental allowance, which goes to the client and then the client

goes on and we probably would not see him again.

They take the money and they go and live wherever.

We have not gone down that road, and the main reason is we would lose

control over the accommodations that the client would be living in.

Because they could take their allowance and possibly I am not saying

they would, but possibly get to a low-standard house or a low-standard unit that

did not meet all of our guidelines and criteria.

MS ROGERS:

Are you familiar with the BC

one for seniors? They have a

seniors' rental assistance program so they actually help the seniors find

places, and it is a portable program.

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

We had our policy and research department look at other jurisdictions across the

country. There are a number of

different programs throughout different provinces.

MS ROGERS:

Ways to do it, yes.

MR. KENDELL:

I think the one in BC is like $100 a month that goes as a rental allowance and

they can take it and use it wherever they want to.

Ontario is about $100 a month as well.

That would not go very far.

As you can see, the average rent supplement with us is like $450 or so.

MS ROGERS:

That is right.

I did

not realize that, and their specific rental program for seniors they have one

for seniors, a whole program.

MR. KENDELL:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Minister, you wanted to have

a word.

MR. JACKMAN:

To that point though, this

is something we have started that is new.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

Somewhere in this process I

want us to take a look at it. If a

lady is here and we have family on the other side of town, I want us to just

explore is there a possibility that if she finds a spot there that we can

somewhere work out an arrangement.

We will let this piece work its way through, but that would be part of my

intentions as well.

MS ROGERS:

In the long run it saves us

money in all different kinds of areas, if people are healthy and not isolated.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

Equally as important is to have supports around you, if you can live in a

particular area where there is family or something else.

MS ROGERS:

Exactly.

MR. JACKMAN:

It is something that once we

work our way through this and ask some questions what a pilot is all about

then we will take a look at that as well.

MS ROGERS:

Great.

Perfect. Fabulous.

Some of

these questions that I was burning to ask have been answered, so that is great.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is great.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

Your

strategic plan says that with the new IAH funding you will focus on private

units for specifically challenged, and on supportive housing for the homeless

and those with complex needs. Can

you tell me a little bit about what specifically challenged might be, or what

you have in mind with these?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

I am thinking that would be folks with complex needs and those kinds of clients.

MS ROGERS:

Yes, and I guess people with

disabilities as well then, would it be?

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is the affordable

housing.

MS ROGERS:

Seniors, yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, because I think we need

to understand that this is not all about providing seniors units.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

There is that other

component of it.

MS ROGERS:

That is right.

Is there any possibility of using existing units or vacant units that

housing has as part of this?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

As part of the investment in affordable housing?

No, we are not allowed.

MS ROGERS:

Oh, okay.

MR. LAWRENCE:

That is part of the CMHC rules.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Do you

know if there are any wait-lists for some of the affordable housing units that

have been built under the previous agreement?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, there are.

MS ROGERS:

Do you have that

information?

MR. LAWERENCE:

Not on me, but we do have it.

MS ROGERS:

Great.

MR. LAWRENCE:

We monitor these groups

monthly and they have to provide annual reports.

We do track. We wanted to

gauge to see what kind of wait-lists they do have.

In many cases they do have a tidy wait-list.

MS ROGERS:

Yes, I would love to see

that.

MR. JACKMAN:

I know that in my own

particular area, Gerry, where these units are being built, the proponents get

calls even on speculation that they are putting in an application.

They want to get into them.

It just points to the demographic and where we have to go.

MS ROGERS:

It is full before there is a

spade in the ground.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS ROGERS:

I have to mention my dear

friend Baxter Hookey. I am sure

many of you have heard from Baxter or heard him on the radio.

MR. JACKMAN:

I have heard from Port

Blandford.

MS ROGERS:

Is there anything going to

be done to help dear Baxter Hookey and the other seniors in that area?

I think he is in Port Rexton.

Is he?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

The reality is I do not believe we had an application from that

particular area. Did we?

OFFICIAL:

No.

MS ROGERS:

He wants to see,

specifically, seniors housing.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

Through this process would be one way, but we did not have a proponent

from his particular community.

MS ROGERS:

Oh, an application for this

program.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, because I believe I

have asked that before. I do not

think we had an application there.

No.

MS ROGERS:

It is hard because the

community groups these projects become the tail that wags the dog for a few

years for these community groups.

They are very complex. We have seen

how long it takes for them to get up and running.

If you do not have the expertise and you have volunteer boards, it is

tough. It is tough to make these

things happen.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS ROGERS:

You are going to give us the

budget for all of the different programs, the Home Modification, home repair,

and the Residential Energy Efficiency Program?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS ROGERS:

I think for the Home Repair

Program you can apply and then you have to wait, is it five years or seven

years, before you can apply again?

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MS ROGERS:

Then it is only twice in

your lifetime?

MR. KENDELL:

Are you talking about HMP?

MS ROGERS:

The Provincial Home Repair

Program, the PHRP.

MR. KENDELL:

The Home Repair Program.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. KENDELL:

Yes, you can apply every seven years.

There is a lifetime maximum grant amount of $12,500.

MS ROGERS:

Not a whole lot of money if

you have to get anything done.

MR. KENDELL:

No, it is not a lot of money. Now

that we have gotten our wait-list under control maybe it is something that we

can take another look at some time in the future.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

Particularly for people who cannot do any work themselves.

They are finding it hard to be able to get what needs to be done with

those amounts.

MR. KENDELL:

We do offer a loan as well, a low interest loan to go with that, if they wish to

do it that way.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

I think Dennis' point is a

good one. We invested a large

number to get rid of this wait-list.

Now that we can serve people within a year, maybe it is time that we take

a look at it and see if we can revise it some.

MS ROGERS:

Great.

Thank you.

Community centres; will they be getting the same budget that they got last year?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, they are funded at the same level.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

CHAIR:

I am going to leave you

Gerry, and go back to Tom. You are

stealing his time he tells me.

Tom

Osborne.

Folks,

just for the Committee's amusement, I am just wondering if after this we take a

break. Or are we close to cluing

up?

MR. OSBORNE:

We are close to cluing up.

CHAIR:

Okay, go ahead.

MR. OSBORNE:

You are getting in on my

time now, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

No, I am going to give it

back to you, though, there, Mr. Osborne.

Here you go.

MR. JACKMAN:

He is a Montreal fan.

That is the problem.

CHAIR:

Oh God.

We should stay here all night.

MR. OSBORNE:

Now you should know,

Minister, that you and I are both Tampa Bay fans.

MR. JACKMAN:

I am definitely a Tampa Bay

fan.

MR. OSBORNE:

You should know that.

MR. JACKMAN:

I know that.

MR. OSBORNE:

I saw you and you saw me.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is exactly right.

I have a jersey to prove it.

CHAIR:

You do.

MR. JACKMAN:

I gave up on Toronto and I

have gone with Tampa.

MR. OSBORNE:

The $12,500 maximum lifetime

grant; is that from all sources, the PHRP, REEP, the Home Modification, or is

that just PHRP?

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

No, that is just on the Provincial Home Repair Program.

There is no lifetime maximum on the HMP at all.

If someone, for example, has a disability of some sort, they can apply,

they can apply, and they can apply again.

There is no maximum on the HMP.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

What about REEP?

MR. KENDELL:

Pardon?

MR. OSBORNE:

What about REEP?

MR. KENDELL:

REEP is just one time because that is mostly for installation.

So once you do that once, sort of thing, that is it.

REEP is just one time of $3,000.

The HMP does not have a maximum.

The PHRP has a $12,500 maximum lifetime.

MR. OSBORNE:

Under REEP, are you able to

apply again in seven years, or it is just once and once only?

MR. KENDELL:

No, it is just one time. The reason

for that is it is an energy-efficiency program.

So, once you make your home energy efficient, there is no need to do it

again. That is basically the reason

why, but now there are energy-efficiency items that do come underneath the PHRP

program as well: doors, windows, and these sorts of things.

What we

do with REEP is do an assessment of the home to see where they are losing the

most heat, the most energy being lost.

That is done with the blower door test.

Once we determine what that is 90 per cent of the time, by the way, it

is insulation. It has an overall

savings, on average, to the people who have it done of about $790 a year once it

is done. It is a great program.

MR. OSBORNE:

The Provincial Homelessness

Fund, what is the committed amount in this year's budget for that?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

It is $1 million.

MR. OSBORNE:

What types of initiatives

are you going to undertake with that?

MR. JACKMAN:

I cannot speak to what will

be rolled out this year, but I know that there were different ones.

There were some organizations within rural parts of the Province, a

church group, who might have been offering some type of services to groups that

operate within the city. It might

be something like Choices for Youth.

So, it is a wide variety, application based what is the deadline for

the application?

OFFICIAL:

There is no deadline.

Once the funding is gone, then it is

MR. JACKMAN:

There is no deadline.

MR. OSBORNE:

Does that cover

organizations such as a soup kitchen so on as well?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

To provide programming or do

they have to provide modifications to their

MR. JACKMAN:

Modifications.

MR. OSBORNE:

In February of this year, A

Road Map for Ending Homelessness in Newfoundland and Labrador, you were supposed

to map out an action plan. When

will we see the results of that action plan and what can we expect from it?

MR. JACKMAN:

That is the OrgCode report

you are referring to. The report

came out and then what we had is a committee put in place to take a look at the

recommendations and then bring them back to government.

As I said a little while ago, that report just came on my desk within the

last week or eight or nine days, so I have not had a chance to go through it yet

but intend to go through that rather soon.

Like I said before, this is not something that I want lying around for

six or eight months. So, you can

expect that we will be acting on that sometime this spring.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

The

Supportive Living Program, what is the budget for 2015?

CHAIR:

Tom Lawrence.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Five point three million.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Do you

sign service agreements with the organizations for this program?

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, we do. That funding is mainly

for operational funding groups like Choices for Youth, Stella's Circle, and

the list goes on and on.

MR. OSBORNE:

Do they submit financial

statements to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing as a condition for the funding?

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, they do.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, they do.

MR. OSBORNE:

Are they made public?

MR. LAWRENCE:

No. They are in our files, but we

do not make them public

MR. OSBORNE:

The Paddon Home in Happy

Valley-Goose Bay, is that now being utilized?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

No, it is not.

We have been having some discussions with the local MHA as to see if

there are ways we can utilize it.

We have been having discussions with Housing and also with Health, but we have

not arrived at a place yet where we have come up with something.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

The

Education Incentive Program, is that still in place today?

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, it is. That is $625,000 a

year, and that is still in place.

MR. OSBORNE:

Six seventy-five or

twenty-five

MR. LAWRENCE:

Six hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars annually.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Was

that $675,000 at one point?

MR. LAWRENCE:

No, $625,000 was the maximum.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. LAWRENCE:

It was cut back at one time, and then we reinstated it again.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

What

are the results of that program so far?

MR. LAWRENCE:

It is geared towards our clients' children and, of course, any of our clients

who are in post-secondary education.

We are having good results with it.

The whole idea was to try to keep our clients' children in school longer.

We are finding that is working.

The problem is there is still not a huge increase in the number

graduating from high school. They

are staying in school longer, so that is something that we are looking at and it

is a tough challenge, I can tell you.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Have

you been doing evaluations of the program to determine how you can improve it,

or other incentives you can provide the students to increase the number of

grads?

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, absolutely.

We did one there several months ago and it is being finalized now we will

say. We should know better results

or more conclusive results in another couple of months.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Are the

students' attendance rates tracked by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing?

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, they are.

MR. OSBORNE:

How often?

MR. LAWRENCE:

I think it is done twice a

year because that is when the allowance is paid out, twice a year.

We go and get all that information from the Department of Education.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

couple of years ago in Estimates, Housing indicated that about 80 per cent of

their units were three and four bedroom.

What percentage is that today?

MR. LAWRENCE:

It is about the same.

It is one of the bigger challenges that we are facing.

We got units that were built in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, all three and

four bedrooms because families were bigger back then, and now our demographics

are shifted completely that most of our clients need one- and two-bedroom units.

That is challenge; there is no doubt about it.

Like

Dennis said if you require a two bedroom, our policy allows you to move into a

three bedroom, so that helps there.

MR. OSBORNE:

What is the percentage today

of the need for three- and four-bedroom units versus the one- and two-bedroom

units?

MR. LAWRENCE:

I would say it is around 15

per cent or 20 per cent maybe who need a three- and four-bedroom.

Eighty or 85 per cent require a one and two.

MR. OSBORNE:

Does Housing have any plans

I know there was some discussion earlier but I mean if a four-bedroom unit is

not required and you are putting a two-bedroom or a three-bedroom need in a

four-bedroom unit. I am not

suggesting that this is the answer, but I am just wondering is there any benefit

to looking at building additional one and two-bedroom units and probably

disposing of the four-bedroom units.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

I think, Tom, this is one of

the things that we are going to have to take a look at, there is no doubt about

it. There are two priorities; one

was that some of them needed work done on them, renovations and whatnot, and

maintenance to bring them up to code.

I think there is something like 77 per cent or 80 per cent now that have

been brought up to standard and improved upgrades to the units.

The

second thing was the investments to get the wait-list down as much as we can.

I think that is where we need to start looking now.

I know Dennis mentioned it is an expensive venture to do, but I think in

the coming year or two we are going to have to take a look at it.

MR. OSBORNE:

Just on this point, Mr.

Chair, and then I will let it move on.

I know it is expensive. It

is probably almost as expensive to renovate a four-bedroom unit to turn it into

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, as to build.

MR. OSBORNE:

one one-bedroom and one two-bedroom, whatever the case may be.

Is there any value in exploring the option of disposing of the

four-bedroom units, selling them to private, maybe even look at making them

affordable sells, and reinvesting the money into building one and two-bedroom

units?

MR. JACKMAN:

I will not criticize all

your ideas either. That is

something we could take under advisement.

You said we are not doing all bad things

MR. OSBORNE:

I bet you we are not getting

any credit if you do.

MR. JACKMAN:

It is something to look at.

It is a good suggestion.

CHAIR:

Tom, are you done?

MR. OSBORNE:

No, I still have a couple of

other questions.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Then based on that, Gerry, you have another ten minutes for sure.

MS ROGERS:

(Inaudible) go with less.

CHAIR:

Less.

MR. OSBORNE:

I have one or two questions,

if I can ask those, then Gerry can wrap it up.

CHAIR:

Okay, because I am thinking

we only have one staff person downstairs and they need a break.

So if we can get it done in the next

MR. OSBORNE:

Final question: Why is it

that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing does not provide fire extinguishers for

the units?

CHAIR:

Dennis.

MR. KENDELL:

We have talked to the fire

departments. It is not required in

single-unit homes. In multi-unit

buildings, the fire departments they are required in the hallways and so on,

the fire extinguishers. It is not

required in an individual home by the fire department.

The

other issue is that when you have 5,500 homes, the task of having them recharged

every year and making sure that they are all checked and up to you do not want

to create a false expectation, for example, that the thing is charged and ready

to go. There is a lot of work

involved. The fact that it was not

required, no more than it is required in your own home, we have not gone there.

We thought about it over the years, but it is not required by the fire

department itself.

MR. OSBORNE:

I do not often lie, Mr.

Chair, but one final question on that related to this.

Has anybody done an evaluation of the cost of providing those units

versus the cost of because every couple of years for sure, maybe more often

than that, you hear of a Newfoundland and Labrador Housing unit that has been

extensively damaged by fire. There

is obviously a cost to refurbishing that unit, making it livable again.

Would one outweigh the other?

I mean if somebody had a fire extinguisher in their home, would that

excessive damage perhaps be

MR. KENDELL:

I cannot give you the

current numbers, but when we did look at it in years gone by it was way more

expensive than it was for the cost of our fires.

Now I know that is not the way to look at it, but it was a lot more

expensive.

The

other thing that was more expensive, as well, was the insurance on our

properties. We are self-insured.

This year we have been fortunate, our fires are not in the last twelve

months we have had a few, but we have had more in other years.

We talk more about education with our clients, cooking fires, fat fires

and these sorts of things. I think

that is where we need to focus in the future, on that area of prevention.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Gerry.

MS ROGERS:

Snow clearing; I have heard

from folks in Froude Avenue. Froude

Avenue had a program where they paid students who were tenants in the houses to

do snow clearing for people with physical disabilities who were living in those

units. They said they had to stop

because of insurance.

The

community centre said they could not do that anymore, they could not pay the

young folks who were living in the housing units to do snow clearing in front of

the houses of people who are physically disabled.

So we have people who are physically disabled in the units and they

cannot get out. I mean I have gone

over and shovelled myself.

MR. KENDELL:

Do you know if it was a

workers' comp issue?

MS ROGERS:

It was an insurance issue.

I do not know if it was workers' comp or anything, but it is a huge

problem for people who are calling me.

They cannot get out do not know what I am going to do.

There is no one to shovel. I

cannot find anybody who will shovel.

We try to find people on Facebook.

Can you go and shovel? Is

there something to be done? Often

it is not that much; it is just their little walkways or their ramps.

MR. KENDELL:

I will tell you what I can

do, I can check with the executive directors of all of the community centres to

find out.

MS ROGERS:

Great.

MR. KENDELL:

The issue with snow clearing

for tenants, we have and you mentioned people with wheelchair ramps and these

sorts of things. There are a lot of

our tenants who have other disabilities as well that may not be wheelchair

related, but they have other disabilities with regard to back injuries, heart

disease, and on and on it goes. We

do not know where we would stop if we were to go out snow clearing.

MS ROGERS:

I understand that.

MR. KENDELL:

The other problem too is

that it is not so easy to find seasonal workers to do that anymore.

It is very difficult.

MS ROGERS:

They had a program where

they were paying students who were living in the community, which seemed like a

great thing to do.

MR. KENDELL:

Yes, we provided the funding

for them to do that. That is the

reason why I am kind of interested in what the reasons were that they could not

continue on. We did provide them

with a small amount of funds so they could hire some kids in the community to go

and shovel.

MS ROGERS:

Dennis, it would be great if

you could check that out.

MR. KENDELL:

Yes, I will check that out.

MS ROGERS:

It is a big deal.

I have

just two quick questions. The

federal Homelessness Partnering Strategy; I cannot remember if we already got

the number of community-managed supportive housing units that exist in the

Province now. That would be, I guess, Stella's Circle, that kind of thing.

CHAIR:

Tom.

MR. LAWRENCE:

Yes, we do not have that

number, but we could probably get it.

MS ROGERS:

I am wondering again what

the wait-list is. We are going to

go all over the Province and what we are hearing from everyone is the need for

these supportive housing units; affordable housing plus supportive housing units

desperate.

Then my

last question is back to Baxter Hookey.

There has been no application from that community.

Is there some kind of initiative or program where you go and look at

where the needs are across the Province and encourage the development of those

kinds of housing for the uptake for that money?

For instance, would anybody have gone to Port Rexton saying we know there

is a problem here, hey folks, is there anybody who would like to step up?

CHAIR:

Minister, closing comment.

MR. JACKMAN:

I know in the case of Baxter Hookey, we

have had conversations with him. I

have spoken with him myself. My

staff has spoken with him on several occasions.

Beside the private sector component putting forward an application, you

also can have non-profit

MS ROGERS:

Yes, I know that.

MR. JACKMAN:

organizations that could

put forward, but we have not received any from out there.

MS ROGERS:

Yes, I know that.

question is: Has there been any outreach?

Do you have any kind of outreach where you look at where there is some

real need and then somebody from Housing goes out and meets with community

groups and says this program is available, is anybody in the community

interested because there is a particular need.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

My response to that one would be that we

have to take a look at is there somebody within close proximity of that

community whereby there would be housing

MS ROGERS:

Yes, absolutely.

MR. JACKMAN:

because it is going to be

impossible to have units in every community in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MS ROGERS:

I know that, yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

Then, I guess in certain

areas in this case here somebody may say there is one close by in Clarenville or

something of that nature.

MS ROGERS:

Yes, I just was wondering if

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing does that proactive job of trying to encourage

the different communities where there is a great need.

MR. JACKMAN:

Do you want to speak to

that, Dennis or Dave?

CHAIR:

Dave.

MR. AKER:

I finally get a question at the tail end.

All I

can say to you is that there is a consultation process that we hold every couple

of years. I know Morley Linstead

and Kate Moffatt in our department, I think it was two years ago went out, went

across the Province talking to all of the groups.

MS ROGERS:

I remember that, yes.

MR. AKER:

That is where you gather that information.

I think in the case of the gentleman you are talking about, they need to

establish, I would think, as a first step, a community advisory board within

that community.

MS ROGERS:

I am not talking about him

doing it. I am just saying

MR. AKER:

No, I am just saying because sometimes when you gather together as a group, you

bring the community together and that is who we want to consult with to see what

the issues are. Of course, it is

not just about working on problems; it is also trying to get people to suggest

solutions.

MS ROGERS:

Right.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you.

Thank

you to the Committee members, thank you to the staff of Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing and the minister.

Clerk,

can I ask you to call the subhead, please?

CLERK:

Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CHAIR:

Shall the total carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, total head, carried.

CHAIR:

Shall I report the Estimates

of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation carried without amendment?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, Estimates of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation carried

without amendment.

CHAIR:

Can I have a motion to

approve the minutes of the Social Services Committee for May 12, 2015, the

Department of Justice and Public Safety and Fire and Emergency Services?

A motion, please.

Moved

by Mr. Little; seconded by Mr. Pollard.

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

Minister, staff, thank you

so much. The Committee thanks you

for coming this evening and providing the answers and receiving all of the

questions.

motion to adjourn?

Moved

by Mr. Osborne; seconded by Ms Rogers.

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, the Committee adjourned.