VOL. 3 NO. 18 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6 p.m. WEDNESDAY, APRIL 5, 1978 . ~ .=- '

April .J,l97& T~pe No. .599 Ti1e house met at 3:UO P.l!. :'!r. Speaker in the Chair. ~!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! PLlliSE~Tii~G Pt.TITIOi~S Hou. 1aember for St. John's East. HR.l-1ARSi1.\LL: i·ir. Speaker, I have a petition to present from some 114 residents of St. Jolm's,most of whom reside in the old and historic,as a matter of fact tile district of St. John'.; East. Th~ rest of them are fortunate enough to reside in tne immediate environs of tliat district. It is, Hr.

Speaker, in tile form as decreed by Your Honour and the rules and contains a prayer suitable to lay on the taole of ti1e House at Your honour's feet. The p:::ayer of tht?. petition is as follows: Tlte prayer of the petition is to request t~1e gover:~li:lent to take notice of a resolution passed by the Parent- Teacher ,,ssociation of Our Lady of Hercy School on i:arch J, 1978 and request it to take appropriate action in connection 1,;ith same. And that resolution reads as follows, :·Ir.

Speaker: "Resolved that the executive of tile Parent-Teaciler l.ssociatiou of Our Lady of r!ercy Sci1ool be directed to ~retest officially to the governm<:nt of Newfoundland their decision to reduce the teacher allotment to the Roman Catholic School Board of St. John's by fourteen teacners. "It is our collective opiilion that the dilution of programme standards will result in serious short and lon3-ter.n effects on the quality of edu~ation lit Newfoundland!' :-Jr.

Speaker, it is also pointed out tnat these people, the Parent- Teaciter Association at our Lady of Uercy School are concerned that t~1e Roman Catholic School Joard has been cut by fourteen tec:.chers in total. As a result, that scitool will loose three teaci1ing units and it seems to the Parent-Teacher Association that the reason for this was twofold:"Number one 1a drop in enrollment of our schools and a , . ..

,\pril 5,1978 Tape :{o. 5 99 Arl-2 ,·i.R. ;!ARSiiALL: return to t he stude nt-teache.r ratio fro:ll twent-five to one to twenty-six to one." It goes on to point out, Ml:. Speaker, that the school 11 l1as an excellent library, a well equipped gymnasium, an auditorium, music, Frencn, drama,public speaking, arts and crafts, etc.

The school can accomodate thirty additional students particularly in the primary grades,and the association is of the opinion that with large amounts of meney being spent by all governments on the downtown areas,the present quality and standard of education in our school cust be maintained so that the inevite.ble population shift back to the inner city can be acco=odated." Now, :1r.

Speaker, in speaking to this petition I would like to join with the concern expressed by the Parent-Teacher Association of Our Lady of r!ercy School for the quality of e<iucatiou h1 t:1.; Provine.; aad particularly as lt applies ! to th:~ school. I myself recognize that the drop in student population and the financial constraints on the Province have been the reason why measures have had to be tc.ken by the government and I certainly am not quibbling with that.

But I do point out that this particular school is a historic sci1ool with a distinguished scholastic record and there may be other considerations rather than the straight numbers consideration of the ratio of pupils to teachers i ~ to be considered. I think that it is essential, Mr. Speaker, to the rejuvenation of the older parts of St. John's that in addition to rejuvenating the older parts of St.

John's that the other facilities. such as t~1ese schools, be not allolved in any way to have the quality of the education vn1ich they have historically provided to the residents of the area be in any way ciiluted. \ie all realize ti1at this government has been instrumental in instituting,particularly in St. John's East,the Neighbourhood Improvement Programmes. There are three of them in my district and I take some credit in bringing this about. We brought Neighbourhood Improvement in in the city of St. John's to .i rejuvenate areas around this particular school and I think that it

Apri' 5,197S Tap.: .'o . !199 dh-3 :IR. .IA.l\.Sl!A1L : UlS to be borne in mind that in order to rejuvenate an area we also hav e to be qui t e sure that <~11 of t he facilities including schools , etc . ,are main t ained at t e sruae quality ~nich they had been before . ~J.ayb e, !·lr .

Speaker, this is a mat t er in some respects of concern- it obviously is a matter of concer:1 ·A·i th the sci1ool board - but: I kn.ow the !linister of Education ~Tirh overall responsibility will certainly •..tant co assure and give assu .rances to the effect tha t they will be in fact no dilutio~ i~ the quality of educa ·tion as a result of the measu res t~at •..;e.re necessary and had co be taken in the Buclgec .

I table t h is peti t ion and as k that i~ be referred to the department to which it r elates , which is t:e DeparQDen t of E~ucation , in ~he ~u r e and certain knowledge t ' at the Oiiiniste. r and t:hto :;overnment will take it i:~to accou.'1t a..'"l.d assu re t 'tat there is no dilution i n t e - and be aware of ;;~a concern oi t nese pa::ents and the concern .of all of us taat c:.;ere be no .;ilutim: in t,;.1a quality of education in tne Province and part:icularly with t:hi.s old and historic school, Our Lauy of ~!ercy School,in t:he area of St . Joan's East .

.\.pril 5, 1973 J!R. SPEAKER: "!R. HODDER: Tape :io. 6'JO :r::: · 1 The hon. member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the petition which ~•as so ably presented by the member for St. John's East (Hr. Harshall), and I appreciated his Nords when he said that we should not be concerned so much with numbers as with the quality of education. This problem, ~!r. Speaker, is one that many schools in this Province ~~ the present tiP.e face. Three teacb.ing units lost to a scllOol is a tremendous number.

It is going to mean that something crucial must be dropped and I believe that t~e minister should consider this particular petition seriously. It has been predicted for many years, :·rr. Speaker, that enrollments ~ ... auld decline in our schools and that t:1ey "ill continue to decline for years to come. Nm.; this is the opportunity for this government to offer a quality education to students in this Province. Now this is a chance for ~let.;foundland teachers to tackle . problems facing Newfoundlanders, educational and social problems, facing Newfoundlanders today.

And it •.vould give us a chance to gear the curriculum ::o the ~l e"foundland scene, to individualize instruction, to increase the number of remedial classes,to develop imaginative programmes in our schools.Instead of that we are expcriencin3 a cutback in teachers which results in a cutback in programmes in our schools such as the one that is ha?IJe:-ling at Our Lady of ~!ercy School. The minister Hent ahead and cut back the teachers or ~intained the status quo in a time when the education of this Provir.ce '"as =ving fon;ard.

And after that he co=issioned, or has acceded to a study- to set up a task force to look into the problems that would be caused by the decreasing enrollments in the Province. Now I think, Mr. Speaker, that the minister should have made the study first and that should have been completed before the ·:

.\pril 5, 1978 :r.r - 2 HR. HODDER: government set out on its present course. ft.nd I believe that the gove=nment must now accept the :-TTA' s request to freeze the pupil/teacher ratio until such time as the task force has been fo~d and brings in its recommendations. ~!r. Speaker, our most valuable resource is the people of Ne,.Jfoundland and Labrador. And ,qe cannot tamper '"ith their future without knowing what we are doing. The task force propcsed by t!1e :.:eHfoundland Teachers' .\ssociation is a good sug;;estion, and I call on the Dinist:er to =ve quicl~ly in its impl~m.e:-.tat:ion. I believe, l:cr.

S;>eaker, that th.: Province :1as only recently achieved an educational maturity. Anyone who is familiar ·.;it:1 the school system knmvs that good ti1ings are :1.ap;>eni:1g in t:1.:! : schools and r.~any i)lans are oeing laid f or the future ana I i:>elieve tr. at t:1e c::-.ildren of this Province sltould not oe deprived of a decent education and I urge tiH! l•inis~er to accept and act on this petition.

The bon. member for LaPoile. :-:R. :.:EARY: Sir, as a parent, and as a taxpayer, and as an elected wember, Sir, to this :iouse, I IJhole-heartedl y support the petitition presented by ~ay !1on. friend on behalf of 114 members of the staff of Our Lady of Ilercy School - parent/teachers and probably some of them are staff. r~. Speaker, for several years past now I !1ave :,een arivocating ooth insiJe· ancl outside of this hon. :louse that 'le establish in this Province a fact-finding co=itt.:.e to look i.:1to our 1-:hole educational s y ste~l righ t fro m kindergarten, rig;1t on up t:1rou;;h university.

I have been advocating now, Sir, for the last: several years, if bon. gentlemeL who have been sitting in the House with me ~~ill recall, both ~~hen I sat on that side of the House, ~~hen I sat down there as an independent, and now up here · and I am going to repeat what I have been saying for years and years and years, that it is about time that '"e found out once and for all whether tve are getting the value that we should be getting for _j

April 5, 1978 Tape 601 EC - 1 MR. NEARY:_ our educational dollar, whether we are headed in the right direction with our educational system in this Province. Mr. Speaker, in my opinion money is not the problem - it may be part of the problem - money is not the whole problem in education. You can put all the money you like into the educational system, but it is not going to solve the problem. The quality of education is still going down and will continue to deteriorate unless we take the bull by the horns and examine the whole educational system in this Province. I argued it when I was in Cabinet.

I do not know if my hon. friend who used to sit to my left, the present Minister of Justice and Minister of Finance - I argued then that we ~hould take a look at our whole educational system in this Province. &. HOUSE: How can you prove that the quality is going down? AN EON. MEMBER: Do not get excited now. Do not get excited. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the argument I used to get - it has gone now even worse since we got a weak-kneed Hinister of Education, Sir, a gentleman who should resign - '- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I might point out to l the hon. gentleman that he may not debate under the heading of Petitions, and also that the subject matter here, although fairly broad, does not include the whole spectrum of education but the concept of the possibility of deterioration of quality of education as a result of a pupil/teacher ratio measure. It is still fairly broad but not the whole ambit of education. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I was proceeding in a civilized manner, Sir, until the lunatic Minister of Education interrupted me and got me off track. But, Mr. Speaker, we are talking about the quality - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I feel I should ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw that epithet.

April 5, 1978 Tape 601 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: I withdraw, Sir, and I would suggest that the bon. Leader not be putting ideas in my mind. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. W. N. ROWE: I withdraw as well, Hr. Speaker! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is a very, very serious matter and I would commend my suggestion to the hon. the Premier and to the government, the whole matter of whether or not we should introduce Grade XII into our high schools. That matter comes up when we are talking about the quality of education. What is being taught at the university?

We are turning out graduates over there who are coming off like they are coming off an assembly line and they are not equipped to go out and go to work. They cannot find jobs. They are not being trained for the employment market. All these things, ~fr. Speaker, have to be looked at. And I am going to suggest again, Sir- and I have been at it now,! believe, for ten years; and I have four children in school myself and I know what I am talking about- that the quality of education is going down in this Province, it is deteriorating and will continue to deteriorate while the teacher/pupil ratio is a problem.

It is one of many problems in the educational system, one of many. MR. RICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, during the last five years there has been a very significant improvement in the pupil/teacher ratio. The hon. gentleman says that during the past few years the quality has gone down, so one, you know - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: The pupil/teacher ratio is one of a number of problems. MR. W. N. ROWE: A hundred problems. MR. NEARY: The teachers are using it, Mr. Speaker. 1 { ~· L MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. I MR.

MARSHALL: I am delighted to see anybody supporting my petition, but the petition is for Our Lady of Mercy School and I want { b q -I.-

Apt"il 5, 1978 Tape 601 F.C - 3 MR • ~IARSRALL: attention cent~r~d on Our Lady of M~rcy School, and I think t hat the hon . memb~r is wandering into r~alms of education, is entering into debate - AN RON . MEMBER: It is not fair. MR. MARSHALL: - and under the rules of discussion of ~etition, daoate is not permitted to that extent. I mean, I want Our Lady of Mercy School's plight cons ide.red , as important as all t he rest of it may be. ~-

April 5, 1978, Tape 602, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: On the point of order. No one is, I am sure, attempting to downgrade in any way the needs of Our Lady of Mercy School but surely, Mr . Speaker, you know, as does the hon. member opposite,that you cannot discuss education in Our Lady of Mercy School unless we are prepared to address ourselves to the problems that exist in education throughout this land. So it is really not a good point of order, Mr. Speaker, in our opinion. MR. SPEAKER: On the point of order: Certainly the submission of debate being out of order is a valid one.

With respect to the material allegation of the petition, I understand the subject matter of the petition to be the fear of, or possibility of deterioration of the quality of education resulting from, or which might result from the pupil - teacher ratio measures and as that applies to a specific school. However, the general area of deterioration resulting from or connected with the pupil - teacher ratio programme would, in my opinion, be within the material allegations but not broader than that. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thank Your Honour for Your Honour's ruling.

And my hon. friend, maybe he does not want to hear the truth. Maybe my hon. friend wants to be partisan about this but, Sir, this is just merely a symptom . . The petition that was presented could be one of a thousand petitions presented on behalf of a thousand parent - teacher associations around this Province. MR. SPEAKER: minutes have expired. MR. NEARY: Order, please! The hon. gentleman's five I thank you, Your Honour, and I do hope, Sir, that the government will take my advice and . ~

April 5, 1978, Tape 602, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: set up this fact-finding committee without further delay. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Grand Falls followed by the han. gentleman for Terra Nova. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am just going to take a minute to focus on one particular problem. First of all I hope that we get a good chance to debate the issue because one thing that has happened with the issue emerging is that it has focused attention on education which tends to be over­ looked even in the Legislature, as we have experienced over the past number of years.

I do believe it is much more complicated than the pupil - teacher ratio and I hope we can get beyond that kind of a consideration, even though that is the specific topic under question at the present moment. I am looking in the estimates and I see that this year we are addressing ourselves to the tune of $305 million for education out of a budget of $1,285,000,000 which is roughly 25 per cent of the budget. I have a feeling, and I am saying this as . ~

April 5, 1978 Tape b03 DW - 1 HR.

LUi~DRIGAN : an observation that I have had since I have been involved in education myself for quite a number of years and I have seen the emergence of quality education in our Province and believed 1 having lived six years in Ontario and a couple of years in Alberta,that we do have a superior education system. _ But I do believe that we have to look at '7hat is happening to tne distribution of the educational dollar.~·:bere is the dollar going? $150 million of tae ~305 million are going ~1to salaries for teachers.Jbviously,almost the equivalent amount of dollars are going into other costs.

I have had the concern.and I have expressed this on many occasions to my colleague 1 who is under pressure now in this particular debate bu t I aw sure will follow ti1rough very effectively, that a good. portion of our educational dollar is not going into curriculum ·development, is not going into the classroom,is not going into ,program devel~p- ment. I have got a funny feeling in my stomach that more money is not necessarily the answer,a higher or lower pupil- teacher ratio is not necessarily the answer. ::illi'fE dON. HEHllERS: Hear, Hear~ MR.

LUNDRIGM: I think that too much of our money, of the $305 million is - going into administrative costs that are great in a Province like Alberta where tiley have got suci1 a tre;nendous cash flow and a trem~ndous positive budgetary situatiou.

But if you go back,and I can trace bacK to my involve- ment in Gander, for example, wi1ere we nad a principal of a school and a vice-principal 1 both of them ceaching part-time,and a staff of triiry-five or forty teachers, and a school board with a part- time administrator, and a handyllian wno would fool around patching up the walls and doing up a scatte ~d little bit and piece around the building, and a janitor or two.

That was your total administra- tive cost and a system with maybe forty teachers.Take the same school system today and it is my ti1eory cnere is no evidence being brought forward on it.I would like the minister to really focus on this when the estimates are up because I want to get

April 5, 1978 Tape 603 DW - 2 HR. LUi.'iDRIGAJ.._,: involved in this debate. I would like to see what happens today with the administrative overburden from your superintendant ~35,000 or $40,UOO,your otner supervisors - lu< H01~ • lt.E~!BER: (Inaudible) HR. LU1fURIC.lu~ :· -your specialists. And then you have another crew called generc.lists wno are not special­ ists at all.They are not religious education specialists or ~usic education specialists,they are almost like executive assistants.NOW they are sacred cows and you do not talk about them. HR. STI1HONS: You woulJ kno1-1 all about those. HR.

SPE:Ai(ER: Order, please! ER. L!J.~lJRIGAN: I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion we should re; lly ~ddress ourselves to this open it up and iet us go the distance that the educator can­ not go. Because he has got his political body as well has he not? iiis 7,000 or 8,000 teachers and he cannot talk as openly as we can ~ere. I Mould be prepared to really get intc this issue in a more fundamental way when the estimates are up. SOME liON. MID!ilERS: MR. SPEAKER: sm.n:; liON • ~fr:MJ)J::RS: HR. T. Lt;Sil: Hear, iiear: iion. member for Terra ~ova. Hear, Hear! Tnank you very much. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say a few words in support of this petition on oellalf of tne 114 parents of the PTA of Our Lady of Hercy School. l-i"i1en I was a supervisor -;.1it!1 the Avalon Consolidated School Board here in St. John'~ to allay some of the fears of some of the people who believe that there is no co-operation between various school boards 1 I worked very closely with the other school board here in St. John's even though I worked with the Avalon,and had occasion to visit Our of Lady of Mercy School on several occasions. I knew the principal very well at that time. I do not know if it is { 6 ~ 7

April 5, 1~78 Tape 603 DW - 3 MR. T. LUSH: tile same principal, it was a Hrs. Wakehaill at that time,when I was supervisor with the Avalon. l:ou can certainly appreciate the concern that the parents express in this petition,the concern of quality education. Hr. Speaker, it is very difficult to be able to identify all of the factors that affect quality education there are so many. But certainly the pupil - teacher ratio must be considered one factor.

Certainly the number of students that any teacher can work with effectively at any one time,certainly the number must have some relationship td the type of education, the way in which a teacher is able to work with the students. I think pr~bably there is a tendency to pay to much attention to it maybe but it certainly nas got to be considered a major factor, I, Hr. Speaker, had the privilege of teaching in schools where the pupH - teacher ratio vas down as low as ten and I know what kind of achievements, I know what success can be achieved in that sort of a situation.

I, personally, had the opportunity of teaching ten for a full year, I have also taught fi~ty for a full year,and I want to tell you there is no way you can work with fifty the way you can work with ten,it is a matter of common sense, ~bat bothers me, Mr. Speaker, is for people to be suggesting that we can lay off 100 teachers in tuis Province and it will not affect education at all. I did not get the full impact of what the han. member for St.

John's East was saying, but I did oelieve t11at i1e said that tllere were three teachers to go, three teachers.~ow, certainly no one staff can lose three teachers without affecting the quality of education. . i

April 5, 1978 Tape :;o. b04 MR. LUSH: if we were to say that we can lose three teachers from one staff, ~1r. Speaker, it is a gross insult to the teaching profession, to be able to say that we can lose three teachers from a single staff and it will not effect the quality of education. It makes no sense. It does not make any sense at all. And I think as educators that we certainly cannot ::;o along 1Jith that kind of statement that by losing teachers that this will have no effect on the quality of education.

And just one further point~ I remenber hearing this 1-reek on an open-line programme tr at some school tvas going to lose a guidance c·ounse.L.Lor, and the question asked tms, ~Jould you identify '.vhat quality of education is going to be lo<>t as a. result of losing this guidance counsellor? no-r:,7, :~r. Sp2a~~er, there is no way that an educator or anybody else can t2J.:.: in ter= of t:1e quality o£ education that is going to oe lost as a result of the guidance counsellor leaving the school. Let me assure this :-:Iouse tl1at if I were a principal of a high school here in St.

John's, there is no way that I would want to lose the services of a guidance -coUnsellor, the perso~ ~..-i1.o cloes so much ~vork within your school. So let me finish by saying, :rr. Speaker, I hope the minister when l:e speaks, when he speaks to this petition now and when he speaks in public, that he certainly lvill come to the defence of his profession and not say that I·Te can lose 100 teachers 'N'ithout affecting the quality of education. That kind of a statement is a gross insult to our profession. :.T... SPSAIG::i:c: The l1on. member for :Say of Islands. :-Ii'c. L. ~i'OODRmT: l·lr.

Speaker, as one who was responsible for education for ~any years on the South Coast of the Province and also in the Jay of Islands, I would like to add my whole-hearted support to the petition so ably presented by our colleague from St. John's Zast (Hr. Marshall). And I would like to say in my comments as well that it is too bad that a ;;ratter with so much importance to the Province

April 5, 1978 Tape :lo. 604 :·!R, \WODR0\1: as education t~at we could not work in unison on this rather than use politics to make some brownie points for ourselves. However, Hr. Speaker, as the han. member for Grand Falls ('-:r. Lundrigan) said, 1-1e have this year in the estiJ:Jates $335 ~llion,approximately,for education, which is certainly a very co=endable sum. And there is another point which we are probably missing that I do not think it is the fault of any of us - it probably could be tl1ough - the fault of any of us in this House that the enrollment has dropped.

The enrollment in education has dropped down throug h the years. How also we are living in a period of restraint and I think not only the members of tl1is hon. aouse of Assembly, but I believe the teachers should be the first ones to show restraint as well. In fact,I have been and I still am extremely interested in what I call Christian education and the education taught in the schools of the Hercy Order, or the Presentation Order, in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is unsurpassed anywhere.

This is borne by the fact that everybody is trying to ge·t tci either the ~1ercy Schools or the Presentation Schools. I could naturally include the Christian :lrothers as well. ;.,lhen I say that I am not at all underestimating the many good lay teachers that we have in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. But the gover~ent,I suppose I could say, is up against a proposition, wnat are we going to do? I think the whole thing amounts to this, chat ••e ~1ave to do as Don Jamieson said - 1i'hat? \fuat? 1fuat? : lR, ;.7QQDROH: - with Ron ~lurphy and the han .

Ilill Doody as well a few nights ago, we :~ve to look at this thing in a non-partisan way, work together and I think we can do something good for our Province, for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in the field of educatiou., which to my mind is the most important thing in our Province.

April 5, 1973 ::R. SPtAKER: Th~ hon. oecl)er for Burgee- 3ay d'Espoir. ~. SD!l-!ONS: :~ . Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by the :netlber for St. John's East (:·!r. N.arshall) i~ relation :o Our Lady of ~!ercy School. n1e ce=lber for Terra llova (:!I. Lush) has adcitt2d t~at ~e is o~ e of the high paid people . I have neve r ~i 0 ured out: ·:he t ~er he ·.-;as a generalist or a specialist . :m. LUS:i: Specialist . ::!:. SI~~!O!'IS: !he ~~~st:. er of Education, I sa) fo r :he :::ecer for Grand Fells (:!r. Luncirigan), and I \·rere 2.ls-o t:o o! t~e hig:1 paid su;;,eri:~te:~:ients .

Of the three the m:i:lis ter is onlr one ~:ho is not C3.king a cut in salery since coming in here, so we can tal~ iairl y Uisp~~iv~te:y about t~e issu~ u~dex =evie w. a r..o.ncr.: ego, ~Xwitcingly or otl:ar..;ise , put his finJer on t:1e pro::l~:l t~~ are t;;.l !d:~g about uhen he said across th~ Jcuse - .low do you kno1~ it ;;ill aifect the quality of education? AnJ therein, ::r. Spea~:er, is the problem , that we do not knov . t doub t :lf there is anybody in this House, :tr .

S?eake r, who kno10s with any de~ree of certainly what itl?act :::1is teacher rec!uctio:l is :;oins to have on c:::c quality of education ac Our Lady of 11ercy School or other schools throughout t he Province . And • l t . j

April 5, 1978 Tape 605 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: that is the tragedy of it all- that a decision is being made quite arbitarily without any real meaningful dialogue. I get the impression the only time the minister and the NTA President talk these days is on the airwaves. This is an issue, Mr. Speaker, this is an issue that ought to be properly and fully worked out out of the public spotlight before a financial decision as full in ramification as this one is was taken in the first place.

So if the minister reflects his true concern when he mutters in an undertone about whether or not we know that the quality of education is being affected, either he has the documentation to support it, when his estimates come in this House,to support that there will be no adverse effect on the quality of education by this move, either he has that documentation or he will do the only honourable thing,he will move an amendment to the Supply Bill providing the additional money required to ensure that there will not be a teacher reduction; and then he will immediately take the initiative to see that the proper study or the proper dialogue is undertaken to see just where we stand on this whole question before we willy-nilly ram through a reduced vote to the detriment of the students at Our Lady of Mercy and other schools throughout the Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. AN RON. MEMBER: Tourism. MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry, Tourism. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, in saying a few words on the petition~! would fully support the petition if there were evidence that the quality of education was being reduced. And I am not convinced that the reduction of teachers in this Province, approximately 100 teachers,is going to substantially reduce the quality of education in our Province.

Based on the fact that this year we are going to see a reduction in student enrollment in our schools throughout the Province of approximately 700 students,which is basically a 4 per cent

April 5, 1978 Tape 605 PK - 2 Mr. Morgan: reduction student enrollment, and therefore the reduction of 100 teachers is less than 4 per cent. So I am not convinced that the reduction of teachers is going to substantially reduce the quality of education in our Province. The teachers who are concerned, I understand there are going to be three teachers less in that Lady of Mercy School.

I do not know what the number of teachers are, and the number of students enrolled in that school, but the big question,as I am sure my colleague, the Minister of Educatiou will agree,that it is difficult to determine whether or not the quality of education is being reduced if the enrollment is being reduced on one hand more than the number of teachers are reduced on the other. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point order has come up. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, it is my understanding of the procedure and the Standing Rules of this House and the tradition that has been carried on in this House that you cannot stand to speak on a petition unless you are supporting the petition. MR. W. ROWE: You cannot speak against a petition really. MR. NEARY: You cannot speak against a petition, and my hen. friend is speaking against the petition presented by the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall). MR. W. ROWE: Exactly. MR. NEARY: I would like for Your Honour to rule on that matter, please. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh~ MR.. ' SPEAKER!

Does the hon. gentleman have a submission on that point of order? MR. MORGAN: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker, on that point of order. I am pointing out that I am supporting in an ,, unqualified way, if there is evidence that the quality of education is being reduced by the cutback in teachers. MR. NEARY: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker. t MR. SPEAKER: The hon.member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: My hon. friend, Sir, when the hon. gentleman stood

April 5 , 1978 Tape 605 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: in his place said tbat he could not support the petition. He said,' I cannot support this petition.' MR. MORGAN: I ~ looking for more evidence. MR. NEARY: So I would submit to Your Honour that the minister if? out of order, and I would like for Your Honour to so rule. MR. lliCKMAN: He is not out of order. MR. SPEAKER: The han. gentleman's submission is correct in that when a person is recognized to speak on a petition it is to support the petition. The h;on. gentleman cannot speak against the petition. MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am indeed not speaking against the petition, I am speaking in support of the petition, but I am asking some questions which seem to be unanswered in connection with the number of teachers reduced in our education system this year. And I am sure that this can be p\lt forward in more detail by my colleague 1the Minister of Education. But I again repeat, I am supporting the petition from the 104 petitioners from the PTA of Lady of Mercy School on the condition that the quality of education is being reduced. But again I repeat I am not sure that that is the case. • ~ j I r. I I ~- J ·'

April 5, 1978, Tape 606, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: In speaking in support of this petition firstly may I commend the Parent - Teacher Association from the Mercy Convent School, for the very responsible position they took at that meeting - Our Lady of Mercy rather - and in indicating their concern also for the Province's ability to pay. I am sure that the han. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) who was present, I believe, at the meeting, or certainly at a similar meeting in another institute of learning in his district recently, will ratify and confirm that.

The petition addresses itself, as hon. gentlemen have said, primarily to the concern that the continuation of the present pupil - teacher ratio may affect the quality of education, because there has been a very vast improvement in that pupil - teacher ratio in Our Lady of Mercy School in the last five years, and I cite as I s~pEort this the following facts: Mr. Speaker, in 1972 the basic pupil - that is five years ago - teacher allocation was one to thirty-five in the Province. In addition, for every six room school there was an extra teacher, and a twelve room school, two teachers extra.

This is in the high school and elementary schools. Today the pupil - teacher ratio, as the petition so ably sets forth. is now one to twenty-six and in addition there is a minimum of seven specialist teachers and a maximum of twenty-four. Now, Mr. Speaker, according to Statistics Canada, and I will have to look to my colleague the Minister of Education or members of the teaching profession to interpret this, but Statistics Canada say that the teacher - pupil ratio considering full-time equivalence in 1972-73, the ratio overall was . f

April 5, 1978, Tape 606, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: 19.72. 22.69 and this year it is Han. gentlemen in supporting this petition may be interested in four more figures. In 1972-73, five years ago, the total number of teachers in the Province of Newfoundland, both specialists and otherwise, was 6,893. In 1977-78, this year we are in now, the number is 7,875. The enrollment, the total student population in 1972-73, full-time population, was 156,375. In 1977-78, this year, it is 149,900, so that we have a situation wherein during the past five years, Mr.

Speaker, the number of teachers in the Province has increased by approximately 1,000 while the number of students in Newfoundland has gone from 156,375 to 149,900. These are the figures that were submitted, as I understand it, by Statistics Canada. If the figures that I have are not correct, I certainly would yield to my colleague th~ han. Minister of Education. It is a fact and I repeat, getting back to this petition, Mr. Speaker, that the pupil - teacher ratio was one to thirty five in 1972, it is now one to twenty-six in 1977.

One can see with the improvement that we have seen at the Mercy Convent School, the reason why the Parent - Teacher Association want an assurance that this high standard that has now been provided will be maintained. May I say in response to the han. the gentleman from Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) that we have had some excellent meetings with the executive of the NTA, the Social Policy Committee of Cabinet, and we have reviewed with them the various concerns that they have. Their concerns, like these of everyone else,is to be sure that the pupil - teacher •I

April 5, 1978, Tape 606, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: ratio reflects the declining population and does not do violence to the very excellent standard that we have implemented. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education; • f

April 5, 1978 Tape ::::o. 607 :;~r ·- 1 UR. HOUSE; t~. Speaker, I rise to speak to the petition and support the spirit of such because I think it is very refreshing to have a group such as the Home and School Association concerned about the ~uality of education. I think that is every educator's dream when people are concerned about that aspect of education. All to often we are concerned with facilities and school buildings and so on. It is very difficult to speak to t his petition <>ithout knowing a lot of the facts.

One of the thin.;s that v ould ilave to be knor;."IJ., as my colleague, the Minister of Tourism, just mentioned, is the ~aunt of population decline in that school. I have not got the statistics. TI1ere is no way I could get them. But if there is a three classroom decline in that school then.of course, t ;,e loss of three teachers would not, obviousl y , affect the qualit y of education there. I just want to point aut in relation to that board, Mr.

Speaker, and again you cannot discuss a single school in the district without relating it to a board because while we do staff schools on the basis of the school population, the units are given to schools and the schools may allocate teachers as they like. School boards. MR. SIMMONS: ~. HOUSE: School boards~ Right, based on schools. It is given to the school boards, so the school board allocates teachers as it sees fit. There is in excess of 900 teachers on tc1at board. I believe it is 919, I am not quite sure on that, and there is a loss of t;lirtec:t teachers •N"hich represents a fairly small percentage.

That board's population decreased by just about ten per cent. It has gone from 22,000 down to 20,000 in the last six years~ so obviously the reduction of teachers has not 4ept pace with the reduction of students. The board, as I sa~d, has had this decrease, and next year the board's pupil/ teacher rat:! .o is still lower than the provincial ~ I . i ~. ,,

April 5, 1978 Tape :~o. 607 :!R. HOUSE: status, the one to twenty-six t!: at 1·1e mentioned. And I think with large schools, spread out through St. John's like they are, and most of this board's schools are in St. John's,! cannot see how the decline by thirteen teachers is going to affect the quality of education, and I have not received that kind of information from the board as yet.

I just "'ant to make a referer.ce to the hon. men::,er for LaPoilc Clr. :~eary), he says that the quality of education is decreasing yearly and it ~ould seem that as the pupil/teacher ratio goes do1m, according to him,the quality of education decreases. 3ecause as my colleague just pointed out, four years ago - :IR. C'<E.\RY: Just look at l1emorial Univeristy. ~:_u .• ~IOUSE; I am not looking at !~=erial llniversity at all. This is a different problem. Four years ago the pupil/tea~~er ratio •.<as one to t"enty-t~~o in the Province totally and ti<is year it is one to nineteen ~oint seven.

That takes i~to consideration,of course, the specialist teachers and the special education teachers. :!R. ~TEARY: Is the quality going up? l!R. HOUSE: I would say the quality has gone up and I t i1ink •.;c can get statistics to prove it. Yes. ?.1e quality is going up. SONE HON. HEHBERS: Oh, oh: lill. ilOUSE: Hr. Speaker, I want to also aay that ue fro111 gover=ent recognize that declining enroll!aents \vhen taken to it.; extre 1::e and there is a rapid decrease, 1·1ill affect education.

And ;1e ;,ave no intention, and it is not our intention, to keep decreasing teaci1ers as t:1.: pupils decrease until ue have reache<.l an acceptable pupil/teacher ratio. ~!R. NEARY; \•'hat is that~ MR. i10USE: Our objective, a couple of years ago, was to come up with a pupil/teacher ratio of one to twenty-five, plus increase our specialists by about thirty per cent. We considered that to be a fairly acceptable standard. And that is still our objective.

April 5, D73 Tape ::i'o. 507 But UQtil we can put that across the Province, totally across the Province, it is just impossible for us to be discriminatory and give some boards better pupil/teacher ratios than others. And as I said that is our objective and that is what we are aiming towards. Xow the problem of declining enrollments. The :10n. member for Port au Port (ar. Ilodder) said that at the request of the :nA we were setting up a task force.

I might point out that that \vas included in the NTA brief to us but prior to that we had met at the department with the General Advisory Committee and had recommended such. And I have asked the ~TA, Federation of School Boards, the DEC, and the Research Branch of the university, to reconmend terms of reference for the setting up of a study because it has more than pupil/ teacher ratio implications, it ~1as implications for operational costs of school boards, or busing, etc., and many other aspects of education. So that is being done and the !Iouse will be advised of that. Hr.

Speaker, I share 1vith the government, all of us share the concern but 1;e do not think there will be an . ' apprecia.ble loss of quality. I think if you take the T:oman Gat:-wlic School Board here in St. John's, which this is related to, if the population does not decrease next year, it means one-third of a pupil more per teacher. · You cannot distribute it that way but certainly no teacher will be overburdened, and I cannot see the loss of quality of education. I 1vant to corr"ct a figure there that the hon. member stated. It was the fact that six years

April 5,197& Tape clo. 606 AH-1 ..IR. HOUSE: ago A>Z had 162,000 pupils a nd 6, JOQ teachers and this year we have 156,000 pupils and 7,300 teachers and it is projected that in the next five years we will be down to 149,000. l.!R. HI ClO!A..'{ : liould the hon. gentleman repeat it for the records - decline is. the same. :J:R. HOUSE: The figure was - :·IR. HICK:1AJ.~: In 1972-1973. :·lR. HOUSE: In 1972-1973 tve 11ad 162,000 pupils under 6,800 teachers and this year tve have 156,000 pupils with 7,365 teaci1ers. SOm: HON. ME~IBERS : Oh, oh! ;•m. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Ferryland. :-!R.

POVIER: I would like to support the petition so sincerely presented by the member for St. Jolm' s East (Hr. i1arshall). I t:link the general reaction in the L.ouse to this educational problem which is facing the people of Newfoundland today shows that we are as parents and as members of a political House very much concerned with the quality of education, not so much only today but what may take place in the future which,I think,is the big question mark in this problem.

We can predict very well what is taking place today or this year but it is very difficult to predict what effect that result will have in years to come. As an ex-teacher who has spent much tice in classes ranging in ratios from one to twelve and one to forty-five tnere is a fantastic difference in the output, in the actual effect of a verJ large class and a very small class. \ ~e in the Province of ~ewfoundland have got to realize that the most perfect pupil-teacher ratio is one to one.

The ideal system of education to come about is where there is one teacher for one student and only in that system will perfect education take place. is certainly not as effective, We in Newfoundland have settled on :J As that pupil-teacher ratio increases then the quality of education a one to twenty-six ratio for this period in our history which

April 5,1978 Tape ~o. 608 .·1.<.. P0l·:ER: is cm;unendable considering t~1c economic tiLle.S that we live in. It is not perfect but it is also not perfectly bad as some people - not the educators opposite, but some people have said that the monies we spend on education are really producing very little and tl~t the quality of education is deteriorating. In Newfoundland this government in 1976 spent $127 million, $140 million in 1977 and over $1.50 million in 1978 on t·eacher 1 s salaries alone, the salaries of teachers and superi..ltendents.

To say that to spend such massive amounts of money produces a deterioratio~ in education is nothing short of untrue. In my own ciistrict of Ferryland as an example, in 1972 we had 2,600 students and 113 teachers. Today we have 300 students less and twelve teachers more to prove tnat over the last five years, in the district of Ferryland at least,the quality of education if it is based on pupil-teacher ratio 1~s been increasing because we l~ve more teachers and less students ~nd tl~t is happening throughout the Province.

For members opposite to say that the quality of education is deteriorating because of pupil-teacher ratios is absolutely untrue. It is untrue. S1 HE HON ME..'1BERS : Oll, oh! .I HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out that all l1on. members as long as they speak to the allegation of the petition obviously may express their views. Debate is not permitted and a direct confrontation of viewpoints I would regard as being the essence of debate. The hon. member. :·IR. PO\-.'ER: Hr. Speaker, I will say two tnings. This is "ot tile first time in llewfoundland tnat =nies in educational fields i1ave ·ueen cut ;:,ack.

I was a young student at ~lemorial, who attended school because the former Premier of t;lis Province saw the value of educatic::' and was willing to pay university students $100 per month towards their expenses. I have to say that,in all honesty~through former Premier Smallwood I received a university education that my family could not have afforded to give to Iae.

April 5, 1978 Tape 609 PK - 1 Mr. Power: 5ut I also remember a very sad statement that the former Premier made when he realized that that programme was simply too expensive for Newfoundland. He said when the programme was curtailed, that Newfoundland as much as it wanted to improve the quality of education and give university students mone~ we could not afford to do it. SOME HON ." MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has come up. Certainly a debate on university education is outside of the ambit of this petition. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion I will make this one statement, that again the cutbacks seem to be dramatic, they seem to be overly harsh,but they are only harsh in relation to the fantastic improvements that have been made over the past five years. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR.1IDEOUT: I wonder will he get in the Cabinet after that. MR. FLIGHT: He should. He certainly should. MR. SIMMONS: He makes a better speech than the fellows in the C~binet. MR. NOLAN: I hate to interrupt, Mr. Speaker. MR.

RIDEOUT: The less said the better from half of that crowd. MR. NOLAN: But in speaking in support of the petition I am sure that many people listening to the debate , because that is what some of it is, even if it is in order or not, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that there are certain nuances that apparently spread some differences amongst those that are involved in teaching directly or indirectly, who seem to have some differences, and this is healthy because I suppose those who are in the teaching organization, the NTA, are as much of a union as,say,the law society, the medical association or the IBEW, and so it is interesting to hear what they have to say. But there are a number of things that those of us who are not directly involved in education have not really - we do not really have the answers to.

For example, if the minister says, if my figures

April 5, 1978 Tape 609 PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: are incorrect I hope he will correct me, if there is a reduction of 135 teachers, if that is the figure, and it is - MR. HOUSE: MR. NOLAN: MR. ROUSE: MR. NOLAN: 127. Pardon? 127. 127. Well if there is a reduction of 127 teachers in the Province, and if it does not,in fact,seriously affect adversely education in this Province, does that mean that if it were 135, it would be seriously affected, or is 200 the magic number? I mean I speak - MR. HOUSE: It is related to pupil loss. MR. NOLAN: Pupil loss.

And 127 is now the magic figure determined on the basis of information that is available to the minister and his officials. MR. LUSH: Measured just like a - MR. HOUSE: It is based on the number of pupils in the school, on the basis of 126. MR. NOLAN: Yes. Before the NTA mentioned this, we have certainly talked about it, I cannot help feeling that if we are wrong that I personally may not be the one who is going to be seriously affected, or even the minister, it is some child who is now in Our Lady of Mercy School, as the hon. member mentioned,or in any other school throughout this Province.

I feel that if we are to address ourselves to this situation today,here in this House or anywhere else, and in speaking in support of this petition, Mr. Speaker, as I do, it seems to me that we are as elected representatives faced with a very solemn duty and that is to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves directly in this House. I mean we are all interested in jobs for the teachersJ obviously, and I hooe we are all equally concerned about those who are unemployed in any other field of endeavour in this Province, and will speak up and lobby and do whatever is necessary . ~

April 5, 1978 Tape 609 PK - 3 Mr. Nolan : to protect their rights when they are unemployed. And may I remind this Hou.se there are many unemployed in this Province.

But if we do not have the answers, all of them right now, and I suggest we do not, it is time we found out exactly what the situation is, not merely to protect the teachers on the one hand, or the school boards or anything like that,or the minister or the members of the Opposition, but how are the young people on whom we are allegedly spending massive amounts of money in education, whether it is enough. well it is not enough obviously, we are going to need more, but how are they being affected?

And if there is any evidence at all that we are sho r tchanging the students, the students of the Province then it is our duty to present the facts so that the parents will understand, so that all teachers will understand, and so that all members of this Rouse will clearly u.nderstand where the duty lies , but we have to have the facts . And I submit to you we do not have them now, because 1f the minister has the information he bas not laid it on the t able, and if he does have it then surely . the NTA would not be asking for the study that they want done, and the minister would not be going along with it.

AN RON. MEMBER: You are against it. . t ~ ' t I -. \ j

April 5, 1978 Tape 610 EC - 1 MR. NOLAN: No, I am not against the petition. AN RON. MEMBER: You were against the petition. AN RON. MEMBER: I cannot wait to vote this time. MR. RIDEOUT: You are the only one who does not know the rules. MR. NOLAN: I am not against the petition. I mean, I have heard of Labatt 1 s 'SO' but Bonavista 50/50 really floors me! MR. NEARY: MR. NOLAN: MR. MORGAN: MR. RIDEO"CT: MR. NOLAN: Hear, hear! so I certainly do support the petition. Dancing Dollars! You were dancing the dollars out. I certainly do support the petition, Mr.

Speaker, and I would hope that in all the flurry about who is going to be laid off and who is not going to be laid off, Whether it is 127 teachers or 135 or 120 or whatever it is, I would like to see some clear indication her~ and as quickly as possible without hurrying it to the detriment of the study, of exactly what effect there is going to be on the students in this Province as a result of the action that we are taking. Not a partisan statement from the NTA, from the Liberals, the P.C.s, but a clear study of the quality of education and how it is being affected in this Province.

And when we have that, then we can talk about it, but whether we have it or not I can certainly support the prayer of the petition at this moment as it was so ably presented by my han. friend opposite. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the ~finister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. HICKEY: I would like to table the regulations pertaining to automobile insurance rates and also the report from the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities as it applies to the automobile insurance rates. I

April 5, 1978 Tape 610 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hou. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table the report of the Corner Brook Housing Corporation for the year ending December 31, 1976. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! ~. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Development. MR . ROUSSEAU: The 1977 annual report of the Workmen's Compensation Board, Mr. Speaker. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR 1\THICH NOTICE HAS JlEEN r.IVEN SOliE ITON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS : Mr.

Speaker, talk about being alive. There are sixty-two questions on the Order Paper, all in the name of the hon. member who is the House Leader on the opposite side of the House. MR. MORGAN: And leader of the party. MR. H. COLLINS: That can only mean one, maybe two things. Maybe he is the only one who is permitted to ask a question - MR. RIDEOUT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A point of order has c:ome up. I must interrupt the hon. gentleman. MR. RIDEOUT: I want to know if that particular question is on the Order Paper that the minister is answering now and what number it is. MR. H.

COLLINS: I do not think that is a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am referring to the number of questions on the Order Paper. It can only mean that the hon. member is the only one permitted to ask a question or otherwise the others do not have the energy to ask a question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I had already interjected when the hon. gentleman to my right got up.

April 5, 1978 Tape 610 EC - 3 MR. SPEAKER: Under this routine proceeding number five, actually, the hon. gentleman is only permitted to answer questions and not to get into debate with respect to who asks them or who did not ask them. The hon. minister. MR. H. COLLINS: I understand that, but it is so obvious I had to draw attention to it. Question ~umber 32 in the name of the hon.

House Leader, "To ask the hon. the Minister of Health to lay upon the table of the Rouse the following information: What is the number of journeys involving public business which he has made since April 1, 1977 to places outside Canada,showing for each journey where he went and what he was doing and how =ch it cost and who he saw and everything else." Now, Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first

part is 'None' -zero. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. H. COLLINS: Now, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. members are not willing to listen - they have been requesting those answers all those days, if they do not want to hear them, you know, we will not give them to them. And I propose to read them out.

Another one, number 26 in the name of the same hon. member,"To ask the minister to lay upon the table of the House again a statement of the number of ambulances currently operating in the Province under the government's ambulance service and the total cost of maintaining this ambulance service." And it gives me a great opportunity to speak for ten or fifteen minutes on the great ambulance service which we have in Newfoundland - AN' RON • ME}!BER: Hear, hear!

April 5, 1978, Tape 611, Page l -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: -which this government brought in. I am sure the hon. member has a motiye for I think he wants to give us the opportunity to be able to articulate and tell the people what a great job we are doing, the number of ambulances we have and so on and so forth. At the present time, Mr. Speaker, there are eighty-one ambulances excluding ambulances found at hospitals. Eighty-one ambulances taking care of the health needs of the people of this Province, something that was unheard of until five or six years ago. The estimated cost, Mr.

Speaker, is $825,000 for the fiscal year 1977-78. MR. STRACHAN: · A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. STRACHAN: If he wants to go though it fully I hope he can go through it fully and explain the ambulance service and hopefully get into ambulance service in the Labrador part of the Province as well. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we are talking about road ambulances. I can only respond to the question which was asked. We are just as proud, Mr. Speaker, of our air ambulance service, the best in Canada, no question about it at all in the world.

If the hon. member wants to put a question on the Order Paper I will certainly deal with that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must point out that under this routine proceeding, Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given, my understanding is that the hon. minister is confined to giving answers and not a speech upon the subject matter of the question. The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the next

., April 5, 1978, Tape 611, Page 2 -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: question is number 14 in the name of the same hon. gentleman. "During the financial year that commenced April 1, 1977, what amount of money was expended by the government for the purpose of supplying drugs to indigents throughout the Province and what system is used to determine whether or not a person qualifies as an indigent so that they can receive drugs paid for by the government?" The answer, Mr. Speaker, is this: The subdivision covering the expenditure for the cost of drugs also contains the lesser amounts spent on eyeglasses and other appliances.

It is estimated that when all invoices are in in 1977-78, we will have spent $3.6 million. Over $3.5 million in providing drugs and other appliances to the indigent people of this Province. The hon. member also asked what criteria is used. The criteria used is that the Department of Social Services do the usual examinations, investigations and the money is provided, as I said, in the Department of Health. A great programme! The same hon. member, question number 10. "To ask the hon.

Minister to lay upon the Table of the House,again, the statement of arrangements with Public Health Nurses who refused last Fall to use their own vehicles unless mileage rates were adjusted to a more realistic figure." The answer, Mr. Speaker, is, the Public Health Nurses who refused to use their vehicles last Fall were not paid their car allowance for their idle days. Since then the collective agreement with nurses has 1 been signed and that provides for an automobile allowance of forty dollars per month with a mileage rate of twenty-two cents per mile and with a guaranteed annual amount of $750.

The difference between . ' z I.

April 5, 1978, Tape 611, Page 3 -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: private and business automobile insurance is also paid for and parking meter costs up to two dollars per week. On tomorrow and the next day we will continue the process of answering some of the questions which the hon. member feels are most important. I do not see too much importance about them other than it gives me the opportunity to articulate and announce and tell the people of Newfoundland the great programmes we have. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR.. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. W.N.ROWE: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS The hon.

Leader of the I wonder, Sir, if the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation is within earshot if he would not mind taking his seat because I have one or two questions to ask him. He does not seem to be around, Sir, so I will have to - MR. NEARY: MR. W.N.ROWE: the - MR. NEARY: MR. W.N.ROWE: Ask the Premier. - direct my questions to Premier. No, I will not bother with the Premier today, he seems to be shellshocked from his return to the Province yesterday. I will leave him alone today, let him relax.

I will have to ask the question, Sir, of the former Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation, now the Minister of Health, since the information I require concerns his tenure in that office. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. HICKMAN: There was a rule by Mr. Speaker Jerome very recently in the House of Commons ·I t

April 5, 1978, Tape 611, Page 4 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: that a minister cannot be asked questions with respect to anything that transpired during his previous tenn of office. That a.rose the hon. gentleman will recall, hon. members will recall>during the questions that were asked the present Solicitor - General with reference to matters that had allegedly transpired during the terms of office of one or two of his predecessors. The ruling was carried in the press and the records of Parliament , that it is a very in~allible ~ule that the minister cannot be asked questions with respect to his conduct in a portfolio he no longer holds. •l 1 .I

April 5, 1978 Tape ::io. 612 ~nr - 1 cfR. W.N. RO!VE: On that point, Sir, I am going to ask the minister certain questions which concern the government as a whole and his office as I1inister of Healt.'l. They are broad questions, ~!r. Speaker. If, as and when the Hinister of Recreation and Rehabilitation gets the courage to come in and sit down I tdll direct some of the specific questions which I have to him. But in the meantioe, Sir, perhaps the House Leader opposite would do me the courtesy of hesring my question to see tvhether it is out of order or not, if Your Honour ·would allotv that. HR.

SPEA.'<ER: The hen. Rouse Leader. :m.. HICl\:lA.'<: The only reason I rose on the point of order is tl1at the hen. the Leader of the Opposition will recall, in ~he preface to his question,which he said :1e had hoped toask the hen. !!inister of Rehabilitation and Recreatian: that he Hould nov: direct these questions to th2. :linister of :lealth with respect to his tenure of office in that portfolio. And that was Qade very clear in the

preamble to the hen. Leader's question. MR. NEARY: You should have let the hen. member finish. llR. HICKHA.l'l: A01d if that is the case then maybe Your Honour tvill favour us with a ruling so that we •vill knmv hmv to proceed. MR. NEARY: \~ell hear the question first. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for 3urgeo -Bay d'Espoir (o!r. Simmons) I think is on. the saue point of order. ~IR . SI::::ONS: To the specific point of order, ::r. Speaker, so.:~e of us are a Hare that r!r. Speal,er Jere me did make that ruling.

I tl1ink •.;e are equa2.ly a....-are that we look to the precedents of t::e House of Co=ns only •.Jhen there are not precedents in our own ~louse to meet the require~ent. :IR. HICKlU.\l\; \fuen our rules are silent. HR. SIHl:iONS: And while our rules are silent, as the Government House Leader so well said. There are _p-recedents, Hr. Speaker. Indeed we had one as recently as yesterday in this House where my colleague,

April 5 , 1973 Tape No. 612 :::! - 2 •LR. S D:lt:ONS : the member for 3aie Verte - \lhite :Day (Hr. Rideout) put a question to the present Minister of Tourism in relation to matters involving his fot'lller capacity as Hinister of Transportation and also I recall one day last week - HR. tiORGAll: I refused to answer? :-fR. SI11.,!0llS: clr. Speaker, •·1he ther or no c t!1e minister refused to answer is not the point. My point is t~at there is a precedent where the Speaker of this :rouse ~as allm~ed questions.

There was an e~~le last week, again by Hay of example, where questions had beeu put to a minister in relation to his former capacity as a minister of another department. I tmuld maintain, ~ 1r. Speaker, that the precedent is well established in this gouse and should be alloHed to continue because it is an excellent practice and a good Hay of getting some information. }JR. SPEAKER: Actually on the point of order, it is I think to a large extent academic because I understood from the hon.

Leader of the Opposition he 'v-as t·Tishing to asl.c the hon. !linister of !1ealtb a question which he understood to be within his jurisdiction as Xinister of Health. However, the point of order is there and should be dealt with. The hon. Governr.1ent House Leader referred to a recent ruling of ~!r. Speaker Jerome and I draw to the attention of hon. members

section 178, page 152 Beauchesne, "Questions addressed to Hinisters should relate to the public affairs ~iith •v-hich they are officially connected," and that tv-ould tenc to suggest the departments for which they are now responsible. The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir did refer to what he considered could be precedence for a contrary practice in this House. My llnderstanding ' would be that the general rule is that ministers are responsible in . ! questioning for the departments for which they are now responsible. \ I do not deny that there may have been an exception ! or two to that somewhere along the line tlnough an inadvertancy on the

April 5, 1~78 Tape :lo. 612 - 3 C!lair's par t , or an inadvertancy on hon . members pa rts to bring it up to t~e Rouse's attention . But I do not think an oversight establishes a precedent. If an hon. ~entleoan says something unparliaoentary and nobody hears it or nobody brings i t up it does not mean the day af t er t he sace thing would !>~ parliar.:entar-; .

So I do think t~at in gene ral our o~~ prac t ice ·.~ill establish - c:1ere mig!1t !le e:<ccption s- but in ::;eneral our prac tice wil l establish t~at ministers are responsible ::.n ques t ion perioc!s fo r the area of responsibli t y which they currently hold . The hon. Leade r of the Opposition. :~. '-1 . )J . 1o:m: 1 was hoping :o let the Prenier off the hook today, ~ive h~ a little break , he has been in the ?rovince for a day or so. So I aD ~oing to have to direct ~y ~uestion to hi~ . I ~ ·l f • J l

April 5, 1978 ':ape 613 DW - 1 MR. W'.N. ROWE: tie cannot keep his colleague the ~tlnister of Rehabilatation and Recreation in the House - MR. NEARY: He is out trying to get A.B. Walsh straightened out. NR. ~~ .N. ROWE: - so I will have to direct my question to him. I would ask tne Premier what procedures nis government has established for the appointment of people tCJ such offices as admin,istrator of gove=ment institutions sucu as children's homes, Exon House and that sort of tning, ~ir. Speaker. MR. SPE.t.KER: Hon. Premier.

PRE~IER MOORES: In all respect I will have to take tnat as notice and refer it to the minister if I c~ find him. SOHE HON . MEI'IllERS : Oh, Oh! ~ffi. W.N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, serious matters are going on in our Province for whicn the Premier is responsible,the minister's are responsible. It is obvious what I am referring to.

I want to ask the Premier how it is, Sir, that his administration permitted,through whatever procedures were in existence at the time, a gentleman such as this man Syrett)or whatever his name is,from Toronto 1 a self-confessed,by his own reported testimony, moral repro- bate with a grade ten education to become the administrator of a house such as Exon House dealing wit!~ ; hanaicapped children, physic;ally and mentally handicapped children':~tat procedures are followed by th~ administration to appoint people to those nig~ly responsible positions ( l·ffi. SPEAKER: Hon. Premier. !'RENIER HOORES ; Mr.

Speaker, as soon as the minister can be found he will answer that,Je were discussing it at lunch today and as a matter of fact he was saying at that time that in the case of Syrett,the unfortunate instance of Mr. Syrett being in Exon llouse,is that he did have grade thirteen education,that he had passed various courses,that he had been screened by people who were knowledgeable at that time in the appointment of such ' i '

April 5, 1978 Tape ol3 DW - 2 PREHIER MOORES: people. That goes for national and provincial bodies •,ho, bad been involved in the recommedations of people to be appointed to that sort of post.~t obviously was not a wise decision for the also obvious reason. I think the situation is much better now. I aru certainly not standing here in defence of Hr. Syrett, but I think as soon as the minister comes oack he can give a complete detailed answer as to the methodology in which he was appointed. ~. HIC~~: I think he is in the iluilding somewhere. HR. W.i:<. ROWE: Let me also make quite clear, Hr.

Speaker, it is my understanding that the present administrator, ·administratrix of txon House is doing an excellent job and whatever procedures were used to appoint that lady must have been proper because she. is doint; an excellent job.

What I want to know, Sir, from the Premier and the minister,wherever he might be,is does the government intend to conduct any kind of a public enquiry or investigation into the procedures followed by the government or boards or the institutions themselves which allow a gentleman such as tile one we have referred to to bubble to the top and become tne administrator in such a highly delicate responsible position as the administrator of Exon House? Is there going to be an enquiry, an investigation of a public nature in order to discover whether the procedures are correct or not? ;';!R. SPEA.i<ER: The hon. Premier.

PRE~iiER HOORES: I have just been advised, Hr. Speaker, that he was employed througn the Public Service Commission w1dcn is the normal way of doing it. But to answer the Leader of the Opposition's most recent question I would not see at this time, from the information I have,that there would be a specific enquiry into that because as the Leader of the Opposition knows there was a very comprehensive enquiry going on at the same time

April ;,, H 7S Tape l'io . 613 .nt - 3 as til is sort of thing was taking place, particularily with the unfortunate death of the pers on who was in there just a few months ago .. That enquiry covered a grea t many areas of concern and not just the adm:inis .t.rator as sucil out toe ·.;hole programme of rehabilitation of t t1is sort of person and that report has been and it is being implemented as quickly as possible. We are also in consultation .witn various volunteer groups, l '·

April 5,1973 Tape No 614 AI-l-1 PRD1IER HOORES: people who have concerns in this area, people who basically want to see rehabilitation of handicapped and other people carried out as quickly and as best as possible. And together with the report, together with the emphasis that is being put before it,plus the volunteer groups and the associations who are attached to this,hopefully, Sir, we will have the. institution in exactly the form that we would all want it to be in. HR. W.ROWE: A final supplementary, Sir, if I may. i•!R. SPEAKER: Hon.

Leader of ti1e Opposition. :C!R, W.ROWE: Will the Premier or the minister tell us, whatever minister is responsible for the matter in the absence of the ~inister of Recreation and Rehabilitation, will the Premier indicate, Sir, whether it is the government's intention to set up different procedures for positions which go beyond tile mere Civil Servic~, the public service jobs •~hich are f_ound in this building and other government buildings, is going to look into the possibility of setting different procedures when the responsibility for handicapped j of high moral standard involved in the interference ar conduct of .I people, young people, delinquent people for example, immature people, people \:ho can be easily victimized and therefore there is a question other people's lives?

Is the government intending to set up different guidelines, different procedures to make sure that ~he likes of this gentleman or anyone like him is not in a position where he can take a culpable advantage of his position, and to make sure that such people do have high moral standards •Yith a proven record of high moral standards in their past history. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. ~!R. COLLE~S: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition knows and all other hon. members of this House, one of the first refoi'l!IS which were brought about by this administration was the establishment of a completely autonomous independent public service commission. That was one of the first reforms, Mr. Speaker, which was brought in by this government and applauded by members opposite because

April 5, 1978 Tape :No. 614 J1! - 2 MR. COLLINS: they wanted to get in on what they thought was a good concept. Now, Mr. Speaker, is the Leader of the Opposition now suggesting that we go back to the whole principle of employing people depending upon the way they voted, upon the party they support~ ~ IR. SPEAKER: Order please~ lo1R. NE.ARY: A supplementary question, lir. Speaker. aR. SPEAL<.ER: Order please! I must point aut that the rules with respect to both questions and answers are similar in that they ,, preclude debate and also preclude unnecessary

preamble. The only information to be given in a question should be enough to make the question intelligible. The han. member far LaPaile, a supplementary. :·IR. :~URY: :·!r. Speaker, I would like to, Sir, ask the ~linister of Recreation and Rehabilitation if he has ordered an investig~tian into one of the facts that arose from this situation involving the administrator and that is in regard to the admission of a young girl to Exon House ~he was not considered to be mentally retarded.

Could the minister explain how that happened, how a young girl ~~uld be admitted to an institution like Exan Hause who was nat mentally or physically handicapped ? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. :·fR. HICKEY: :·!r. Speaker, I think first of all we should clear the air an one thing and that is that the »tatement has never been made categorically that upon the time of admission that that child ·was nat retarded. There is a lot of supposition that might be directed in that area uut that statement has never been made by any medical doctor.

Let me as quickly as I can inform tne House of t:1e system which is used for admitting children to Exan House. It is a committee system which is made up of a doctor well qualified in her field. It is made up of representation from the department, from the two institutions which the department has control aver wit~ regards to mental retardation,namely,Exon House and the Children's Home. TI1e admissions are made after investigation and based upon f

April 5, 197 3 Tape No. 614 JH - 3 :-m.. tiiCKEY: three areas - one, the degree of retardation as determined by a meciical examination of doctors. case three ciifferent doctors

April 5, 1978 Tape ~ o. 615 ~~! ·- 1 ~~. RICKEY: - in this particular case three different doctors - based upon the behavioural pattern and problems of the child and based upon the ability or inability of the family to care for that child in relation to those behavioural problems. The case in point; this girl was exarained by three doctors over a ?eriod of time from late 1970 to 1973.

Tbe first by a psychiatrist, sho11ing an I.Q. of fifty, t!le secon.! by a medical doctor, well regarded and ''ell respected ia t:1e area, sho.,ing t!1e child to be retarded, a degree of retardation, t!lirdly by another psychiatrist shelving an I.Q. of forty-fi ve, subsequently by the doctor ;1ho sits on the Co=ittee and !<ho acts on the Committee for admissions to the home and her diagnosis indicating an I.

Q. in the lm·l fifties. ::lased on that the child Has admitted, taking into account all the pertinent information and especially the situation in the home, namely the inability of the family, the parents to cope with the behavioural problems of the girl. :JR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary and then I recognize the hon. mer.Jber for Bur;:; ·~o -· Bay d ':!;;spoir. :IR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, the information the lion. gentleman just gave the House is merely hearsay. Obviously the hon. gentleman did not read the evidence that came out in the court.

I think I saw in one of the statements Hhere the I.Q. of the girl was eighty -five. Dr. Pryse-Phillips said that. :-lEARY: And this was by Dr. Pryse-Phillips. Sir, the hen. minister merely said that the young. lady had seen three doctors, ti>O psychiatrists and one medical doctor. TI1at does not prove a thing, S~r. The question I am asking the minister, that obviously -and from the minister's answer by the way, I have gathered that this young lady should not have been in. I do not know whether the mnister - the minister gave a very weak answer. The young lady should not have been in Exon House.

And 1;hat I am asking the winister ·'·

April 5, 1978 Tape :<a. 615 :r.l ·- 2 :JR. NEARY: is this, lfuat pressures were used? Here there any pressures? Were there any political pressures? Was there any member of the government used any pressure on the administration of Exon House to get this young lady admitted to Exon Housei' That is really what I am getting at. The minister can give me all the hearsay evidence he t.rants but I really think there should be an investigation into this. It <,Jould appear that there Has pressure of some kind and I twuld like to find out if it t·7as political pressure and from where it came. ~!R. SPEAKER: ~1R.

HICKEY: The hon. Minister of Rehabilitation and lecreation. Hr. Speaker, I remind my hon. friend that he is quoting me inaccurately when he says I gave hearsay information. ~{hat I have given the House today are facts. !{e is the one t·1ho deals in hearsay, not me. \~e can go back a long way and demonstrate ho<1 my hon. friend deals in hearsay and how we have proven that you know through commissions of one kind and another. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hon. gentleman to confine his remarks to the irony of the question. ~!R. !IIC:GY: Your llonour, I thank you very much.

I am dra:.ring on all the patience and strength within me to stick right to the point. It is very difficult. ZlR. NEARY: A.B. Walsh is worrying the han. gentleman. NR. HICKEY: I have not, ar. Speaker, in any way indicated that the child should not have been adnitted to Exon House.

I!l fact, I tdll oake the stateoent right now that based on the best infornation thnt is available in this Province, based on assessment at the tL~e by people t.rho certaii'~Y do not come into question, whose abilities and t.rhose experience as medical doctors are not called into question, based on that evidence that child <Jas ad!n-.itted to Exon House and, in fact, should have been. There was no ·other ?lace for the child to be placed, number one. Nu1nber two, lir. Speaker, the hon. gentleman talks about adl!litting the girl as if just because today t!1at child, that

:;:! - 3 young lady has improved to a great dezree as a result , i!r. Spea!: er, as a result of a programme that '"'e are very, ver>· proud of on this siJe of the no use, a crai:ling progracme . uut I opened it. ~!R. JIC!<tY: T.~e hon . gentleman opened a hospi tal, and 30thing wore, to have the retarded caildr2n o: c ~is ?~ov~~ce put in a hospital and kept th ere. :::r.

Spea~er , cite people 1\ho intro duced t h" training progra = e - This adcinistration . :!R. :ncKEY: - ::ho turned a roun d E:<on :louse as a training vrogrom:.:e, as a t=nsient instituti on so that those C::~ildren w:1o are r etarded cay reach ~~ ~eights in their developmen t taldng t:teir place i:l society, there is :10 doub t abou t ·.o~hat ad::i!nistracion done that, it happens to be this one. so:!E HON. :-!E;mc:RS: Bear, hear! )JR. HICK!:'{ : Nr. Speake r, finally , hon . gentlemen must understand that when a child, and it takes no medical doctor to understan c that, sur ely goodness ., .I t .·

April 5, 1978 Tape 616 PK- 1 Mr. Hickey: anyone who has dealt with retarded children or retarded adults knows this full well,that when a child is assessed based on an I.Q. or to establish an I.Q.,a pertinent part of the -~~ults of that test is based on the environment in which that child was living, the ability or inability of the parents to cope with the child which may allow the child to function at 100 per cent capacity or 80 per cent or 50 per cent capacity. This young lady could not function at 100 per cent capacity.

And any doctor in the land will tell you that based on that situation that child had an I.Q. of 50 · or 45 at that particular time, given the right set of circumstances, given training, given the property environment her I.Q. improved. MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: Does the han. gentleman want to challenge that? Yes, I do. If he does,let him challenge it with the doctors, the medical profession. MR. DINN: We do not need a Mifflin report to prove this. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated I will recognize the hen. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir next.

I can see that it is a matter of extreme importance· ~-n which han. members are verv interested. I certainlv do not wish to prejudice the han. member for Burgo-Bay d'Espoir the right to ask questions either, so I think I will say I will allow one more and then I will go to the other han. gentleman, ~hat will not preclude other han. members to come back to the subject after. This will be the final one before a new subject. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, if this young lady was as mentally retarded as the hen. minister is leading the House to believe-and, Sir, I am sure the phychiatrists and the medical doctors will be interested in hearing that you can raise an I.Q. You can train people. AN HON. MEMBER: You can. Of course, you can. MR. NEARY: You can? Well then it is about time we strated trying to raise the I.Q. of hen. gentlemen. MR. HICKEY: You would never do it with the han. gentleman.

,\pril 5, 1978 Tape 616 Ill - 2 : :R • : E.\F.Y : :~r. Speake~t I ~.:ant to ask the hon . ;;e:1.tle~a~ unC:er 1;-hat authority and on 'i'hose instructions li'as this youu.g lady put out to live in the administrator's house? Hho was responsible for that? Is that aspect of it being investigated? "ho authorized it? Did the administrator do it himself? l-Ias there a board? ~las there a consul tat ion li'ith Dr. Browne? l·Tas there consul tat ion with anybody? That is a very ~portant fact and should that fact not be investigated? :IR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Rehabilitation and 'lecreation. !!R. HICKEY; l!r.

Speaker, one can go on on the subject and make irresponsible state~ents that the hon. gentleman is alluding ~o. That girl was placed in that home in full concert VTith the people in t:>at institution, a social <<erker, the administrator !1i.;::self - SO!!E HO~. l!E:lBERS : Oh, oh! - the department. Ron. gcntlenen can snic!ter all they like. Let thee remember - and this is in no <vay condoning t:le incident ~!h ich has happened "there but for the grace of God go I." Easy for them to poke fun nmv and snicl~er all they like, but let them. :!r. Speaker, the girl 1vas placed - A point of order, Hr. Speaker. XR.

SPEAlffiR: A point of order. ~IR. ~lOL~l: I think it is very important, :!r. Speaker, that "e clear up the fact that the minister has nm; apparently attempted to imply that gentlemen opposite are poking fun at a very sad and unfortunate situation. I nean these are the words of the hon. - ~m.. ::O!tGAN; That is the Opposition poking fun, nobody else. ~P... ~l0L.~.N ~ ------ :rr. Speaker, I ask that this be "ithdra1m because no such fun in any way was ever intendec. :::R. ::O"?.G}2L ~lo? No, it 'Nas not, ~~ot by anyone on this side of the ~Iouse. !1R. HORGf.jL (Inaudible) .

H:!1o is the non. gentleman referring to? :IR. NOL~I: Hr. Speaker, I would like to make the point of order • f without interruption. :m. ~iEARY: \fbo is ti1e han. gentleman referring to? :7here are your guts? :n:.o was the han. gentleman referring to?

April 5, 1978 Tape 616 IB-3 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Has the han. gentleman completed his point of order? MR. NOLAN: No. MR. SPEAKER: I Yould ask him to complete the poi.nt of order. MR. NOLAN: It is difficult, Hr . Speaker, as I am sure you will appreciate . }~. Speaker, the point of order seriously i s that the minister has attempted, w~ttingly or unwitti ngly, to imply moti.ves to members opposite, that they are poking fun at a very sad and unfortunate situation. 'thi s is not so and we demand a retrac tion . Mr . Speaker. I t is as simple as that. HR . SPEAKER: The han.

Hinister of Rehabilitation and Recreation . MR. HICKEY: To that point of order, ~~ . Speaker. That is not a point of order and the han. gentleman is well aware of the fact . ae is j ust drawing attention to it and that is .all he can do is draw . I attention to it under th.e .,, no point of order. I have dis~~ise of a poi nt of order . There i s not indicated in any way th at my hon. friend across is poking fun at that situat i on. What t he bon. gentl~ is attemp t ing to do,and what 'I

April 5, 1978 Tape 617 EC - 1 MR. HICKEY: upsets me a little bit, Mr. Speaker, and surely all hon. members of this House, is that the hon. gentleman is alluding to making very irresponsible statements regarding this whole very unfortunate situation. AN HON. MEl·!BER: Hear, hear: HR. SPEAKER: Order, please: AN RON. MEMBER: To a point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: To the same point of order, because I still have one. I just cannot hear another one. I am not aware in what the hon . gentleman said that there was an imputation of any base motive on the part of anybody to my right.

There obviously are differences of opinion with respect to a number of matters, but I am not aware that there was any imputation of a base motive or an unavowed motive. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker , Your Honour is absolutely right, there was no such suggestion. I would suggest to my hon. friend that the just - MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. MR. W. N. ROWE: Sir, I rise now because it is the earliest opportunity to do so.

I do not know what the exact words used by the hon. minister were, but my memory of them is that we were over here on this side of the House snickering - 1-JR. F. ROwE : Poking fun and snickering - MR. W. N. ROWE: - poking fun and snickering at this situation which is presently being questioned. I rise now, Sir, to give not i ce that when Hansard is available to us and we see the exact words which were used by the minister, Sir, we will be continuing with the point of privilege or the point of order as the case may be.

It may become a point of order at that time depending on the words actually used by the bon. minister. . f t ·~ f. J

April 5, 1978 MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. RICKMAN: Tape 617 EC - 2 Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Justice. To that point of privilege. Your Honour ruled yesterday on exactly the same situation where a point of order was raised and the Chair dealt with the point of order and disposed of it and then some hon. gentleman rose on a question of privilege; and Your Honour will recall that the decision was that when a point of order has been disposed of it cannot be raised again under the guise of a question of privilege. MR.

SPEAKER: As I understand it, and my ruling was I did not hear anything which appeared to me to be an imputation of motive. Now, obviously, when I have an opportunity to see the Hansard or to hear the tape, if there is something there which is an imputation of motive then I will be in a position to deal with it, and I understand from hon. gentlemen to my right that that is their position. AN HON. MEMBER: As you would a point of order? MR. SPEAKER: Well, I think we will leave it at that until I have an opportunity really to see what has been said or to hear what has been said.

My ruling is that from what I heard there was no imputation of motive. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. HICKEY: PrivileRe takes precedence. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think we may be getting into an unnecessary procedural anomoa1y. My ruling was that I was not aware of anything that was said which was an imputation of motive or base motive, unavowed motive on the part of the hon. minister. The hon.

Leader of the Opposition then gave notice that he thought that the record would show there was, and when we have an opportunity to see the record or hear the record we will be able to deal with the situation in a concrete manner. Now, obviously, there is nothing anybody can do. HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, if you are - . t

April 5, 1978 Tape 617 EC - 3 MR. SPF.;AUR: Th~ bon. gentleman is up on a point of order. 'rae han. gentleman to my left iS un ,on wnat? MR. HICKEY: Your Honour, I was just trying to be helpful with regards to the point of privilege raised by the L.eader of the Opposition. MR. SPEUER: Perhaps this matter will clarify itself i..f we allow the hon. gentleman to the left t .o - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: It may, I do not know. MR. NEARY: If the hon. gentleman wants to apologize - !!It. HICKEY: I am not going to apologize, Mr.

Speaker, I have nothing to apologize for. 1 am quite prepared, and I have very clear recollection and know precisely what I said. If the bon • .gentleman opposite wants me to repeat what I s·aid; 1 will gladly repeat i .t, okay? MR. SPEAKER: Okay. MR. HICKEY: lie asked me by whom was the girl admitted to the home - not the Exon House but the foster home. And I went on to state who approved o£ that placement,

April 5, 1975 Tape :ro. 613 :G - 1 :JR. lUCKEY: I included the Adninistrator. And ~•hen I included the Administrator, the han. gentlemen opposite said, "Oh yes, ~•e know.'' ;.m. NEARY: That is right. :.rR. HICKEY: And began to smile. And I said, You can poke all the fun or laugh all you like, but this is a very serious situation and you should not ~ke irresponsible statements. Namely the irresponsible statements are, :lr. Speaker - Oh, oh! ~'R. SPEAKER': viell actually SOl-IE IWN. }!EHBERS :. Oh, oh! ~'JL SFI:A1.'ER: Order, please!

Actually that Hansard or that type can be located very quickly o.n~ it 1-1ould appear to ~e the best ~'lay to 4ispose of it as l'le '·7ill adjourn~ hopefully for no ! longer tha11 five'~1D,inutes, and continue what is left of the Question Period thereafter. HR. SPEA.'<ER: Order, please! lion. members l'lill recall that the ruling was that what I heard or did not hear, from ,.,hat I heard there Has nothing unparliamentary.

Actually by Hay of aside although it is related to it, this does show the advisa~ility of having the process like they do have in the House of Commons where,apart from the transcription recording 1 everything is taken is s!'torthand and one can have it ten seconds after; however,because we do not have that then obviously these situations arise l'lhere it is necessary to adjourn and hear the tapes. It is impossible l'lhen there are a number of people interjecting and ~ebate Jets heated to ~ear everything.

I have ho<1ever heard the tape anu there was a remark there,quoting directly by the han. gentleman to my left, "It is easy for them to poke fun and snicker all they like." Given the delicacy and seriousness of the subject matter under discussion- I think these matters have to be applied in their context. He are not discussing the fisherJ or discussing agriculture or forestry, ' '

April 5, 1978 Tape ~lo . 618 :rR. SPEAKER: -given the delicacy of the events under discussion I think one could reasonably assume that to be an imputation of motive. There are arguments to the contrary as well;obviously there are argulilents to the contrary. One can say, :~o. One can say it was a difference of opinion, you know, Did people snicker? Did t~ey not sU.:..c.ker? And one could resolve it t!1at '"ay. It is an area 1::1ere personal judgement has to be used.

And in the context, given the seriousness of the events, then the reasonable and appropriate t!1iilg would be for t!-J.e hen. minister to "'ithdraw those remarks and then having done that I obviously would allow him to continue his answer. I will then recognize the hen. member for Burgee -· Day d 'Espoir (~lr. ::a=ons). I •.vill do that even though his tirae is, str~ctlv speakin~ up, because I did ~ive him an assurance that I would recognize him having allowed an additional supplementary. So I call upon the hon. minister. :rn.. HICKEY: Hr.

Speaker, out of respect for Your llonour and the rules and traditions of this House, if roy remarks impugne 1vrong motives - A..~ HON. l1E1!BER: (Inaudible) HR. :UCimY: Are you going to listen? I might change my mind, you know. ~'!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I do think you should let the hon. member continue. He has not completed a sentenc:: yet. ~!R. :IICKZY: ~ -!r. Speaker, =Y I 'Je heard in silence? Put a button on your mouth for a fe'!7 minutes 7 if you can. l·!R. :;:EAi\.Y: A point of order, }~r. Speaker. I have s~t here, Your Honour,and I have not said a word,Your Honour, not a word.

I am just sitting here listening to the hen. gentleman. Somebody to my right HR. HICKEY: That is the hen. gentleman's problem, even when he is in his seat he cannot keep his mouth shut. !-lR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It is necessary to dispose of this matter. The decision has been made and I •.vould ask 11on. gentl .~men

April 5, 1978 Ta;>e :-<o. 618 ~:;! - 3 :~. SPEA:L"R: on !loth sides no t to intervene or to inte rrupt and I be lieve - 1 have no way of knowing-that the !lon. gentleman, knowing him as I do, ~·rill cercainly comply with the request of the Chair and that will dispose of t he ~tter. :-m. :ucrn: Thank you, Your 3onour.

I s tarted to nake -:JY statement of Hithdra\lalo 1 •ti ll try again no1: o vut of respect for Your :ionour a.nc! c:1e rules and traditions of this :!ouse, if my ramarks i.opugned ~;ron ~ moti"7CS on the part of the hon o ;;entleoan then I wit.'ldra'~ t hem 311d in doi:t:; so I oake the assucption that the snickerinz that !4ent on at t he ti:'le •<I as because of cr.e fine ';!Cather out:side o I 0 t l • ' i '

,t..pril 5, 197 3 Tape No. 619 JH - 1 SOl-!I: HON. HEHBERS : Hear! Rear! l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman has withdrawn from the statement and added a sort of gratuitous remark,but I do not think it affects the withdrawal of the statements. Does the non. gentleman wish to complete his answer? :·iR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, I 'llOuld like to just repeat what I said,that there is no question whatsoever in tarms of the admission of this girl to that foster home. · It was approved by all parties concerned which are normally used to give such approvals for placements in foster homes of this kind. i'iR..

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir and I will not be able to allow any supplementaries. ll.R. SHlNONS: Hr. Speaker, I want to put a question on one of tne same subjects to the l1inister of Recreation and Rehabilitation or,if it is in order, to the Minister of Health. I will direct it in the first instance to the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. I want to come back to the matter of the appointment of the former administrator, not the present one, and raise the question to the minister of whether or not - perhaps I should also

preamble by saying that it has been pointed out in the House by the Premier today that it was a Public s_ervice Commission appointment. With ~ that in mind,would the minister indicate whether the department t. was involved in any way in the appointment? Did the department approve of the appointment? Is it correct ·co assume that there was at least one representative of the department on the selection comQittee? And related 1was the position publicily advertised? And was there more than one applicant for the position?

And in view of the circumstances which have become public knowledge in the past few days, is the minister now prepared to agree to a full public enquiry to determine whether the appointment was decided in a . t· l dispassionate way as we have been led to believe in this House today or whether in fact there were some other considerations 1 perhaps political pressure or personal influence?

April 5, 1978 Tape No. 619 JH- 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Hiu.ister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I want to answer and state categorically that the appointment of this gentleman to the post of administrator of Exon House was above board from start to finish. The applications, I do not know how many were received by the Public Service Commission but I knm~ that three reco=endations came back from the Public Service Commission. The gentleman in qu~stion who was appointed was number one on the list.

The Public Service Comission have that gentleman rated as having an educ~tion of grade tidrteen. The gentleman took a number of courses, three or four different courses in hospital admiaistration,attaining a mark of three out of a class of,I believe,seventy-one; rated by the departmental staff during iris aJministration of being very satisfactor; in terms of the adwinistiation of that home; rated by the National Institute for I Nental R~tardation ..:hen they did the am;ess;nent on that institution as being a competent administrator.

To my knowledge one member of my staff sat on the selection board. rne interviews were conducted and the gentleman was head and shoulders over anybody else who was interviewed. The decision was unanimous as to who was number one on tile list and then the decision was unanimous that number one was in fact to be accepted and placed. Now,what else can I say? I do not know anything about this suggestion of the grade ten education if in fact it was made. If it was made by the gentleman I do not have the foggest notion how or why he made it. But one fact is - l1R. NEARY: You should read the paper. l-!R.

HICKEY: Read the paper ?I read the paper and unfortunately I have to read some of that garbage that comes from the hen. gentle~an. :·lr. Speaker, the - &~ HON. ~lli~~ER; Have an enquiry and clear it up. l-IR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, there is no basis for an enquiry. This is what I am getting to in response to the question by the hen. gentleman from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. If he refers to something in the paper which calls for an enquiry, does that mean we all rush out

April 5, 1973 J~l - 3 MR . HICKEY: and announce an enquiry ? The answer is no . Obviously there is no basi s for an enquiry. As far as t he records of my departmen t are•co nce rned, as far as the r e cords that the Public Service Commission are c onc erned this gen t leman had a grade t hirteen educa t ion, ~as well qualified for his post and not only that, :.lr . Speake r, but I think ~his is t he overridint; point , mile i:l ' is post as an adminis cracor carried out his 'ucies in a most compe tent fa,; ;;ion .

That: being assessed by t e jleople visit:in g the institution from my department 1o•ho were in a supervisory,ov .erseeing capacicy and fur t her subs t antia ted by an independent organization such as the :Q.tiona 1 Asso ciation of de nta l e ta:rdati on who indicate s clearly t:he gentleman to be a competent administrator . lfuat is chere to inqui r y into? ORDERS OF THE DAY: :1R. SPEAKER : It beiug Priv a te ~~~ers Day, t he adj ourued debate on Not.ion 6 . The debate was adj ourne d by t he hon . member for Terra Nova .

April 5, 1978 Tape 620 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to give my support to this motion, this magnanimous motion, this rather big motion. I am glad to be associated with this motion.

I am glad to be associated with the party that proposed it, that initiated it, and the party that got this motion on the Order Paper, the party of the people, Mr.Speaker, the party with vision and foresight and insight, the party concerned with unifying and developing every region of this Province, a party that is devoted to reducing conflict and friction and misunderstanding among the people of different regions of this Province particularly as they relate to the Island part of this Province and Labrador; a party that is devoted to promoting harmony and unity among its people and a party that is devoted to regional equity and insuring as much as possible that every area in this Province where there are developments of our natural resources that these areas get the maximum return from the developments that take place within their areas~ that the people in these areas get maximum returns from the developments of whatever This is the thrust of the motion, .I projects, whatever resources there may be in these particular areas.

Hr. Speaker, the maximum development of the resources of Labrador with the maximum returns to the people of Labrador and to the people of this Province and to provide the proper infrastructure for the development of the resources of Labrador, such as transportation, and in this the motion refers to establishing a port, Port Labrador, and the railroad system that will connect this port with other areas of Labrador and with Central Canada, and the road system.

I suppose the motion has built in it really, the expansion of the existing systems there, the railway system that now comes to Esker and a road system that is partially complete - expansion to these existing systems of transportation - and then the developing and processing within Labrador of its hydro energy and other natural resources for the benefit of Labrador and the rest of the people in this Province. Such, Mr. Speaker, sorry to say, has not been the case with previous developments in Labrador. Far too few people from the Island part

April 5, 1978 Tape 620 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: of the Province and fewer still from Labrador have really reaped the maximum benefits from the developments that have previously gone on within Labrador. And this is what this motion is calling for, that we develop to the maximum potential the resources that are in Labrador, the considerable resources, for the benefit of the people there and for this Province. If I might be permitted, Mr.

Speaker, just to digress for a moment and speak of my experiences in Churchill to point out how it was that people from the Island and people from Labrador did not get maximum returns from the most obvious, and that is in the working with respect to the creation of jobs. Now I realize this is difficult to do. We have talked here of giving our people, Newfoundlanders and our Labradorians,preferential treatment with respect to any jobs in this Province.

I know it is difficult to be able to carry this thing out according to the letter of the law, because there are so many loopholes, there are so many ways that companies can duck out from under various regulations, but this was one of the most offensive things that I found, Mr. Speaker, when I was in Churchill Falls for five years, to see the number of jobs that were being performed by non~Newfoundlanders, non-Labradorians, . ; .I

April 5, 1978 Tape 621 IB-1 MR. LUSH: people that did not belong to this Province. And I am not speaking, Mr. Speaker, about jobs that required a high degree of skill or high degree of expertise. I was very flexible about this, nad an open mind to these kinds of positions. But, Mr.

Speaker, from time to time I would roam around the various construction sites and look at the number of people who were there from outside of Newfoundland and Labrador and it would just baffle a person to look at the numbers of people involved in labour work, involved in operating heavy equipment, not the highly technical heavy equipment, backhoes and bulldozers and this sort of thing, people that were not Newfoundlanders.

To visit the catering people there and to see again the number of chefs and the number of whatever - I called them cookees, there is another terminology for them now I suppose - second cooks and this sort of I thing, to see the number of people there again who were not 'i,l Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. And I know that the government of the day tried to deal with the situation. The number of students that came in in the Summer, again the large number of students,or to put it another way, the few students that came from this Province. There is no question, Mr.

Speaker, that there was discrimination against our people, no question at all. And I would hope - pardon? AN RON. MEMBER: It is a problem. MR. LUSH: That is right. Exactly. I know that it is a difficult situation to control. I know that. But, Mr. Speaker, in carrying out the plan of this motion I would hope that we could come up with some legislation that would have some teeth to it and minimize this sort of thing, to maximize the number of Newfoundlanders there in as much as possible. I do not want to bore the House with the kinds of examples that I am quoting but some are important, I think.

I remember on one occasion when I moved in that there were a number of people there, supposedly ca~enters, levelling up trailers, no carpentry work, levelling . t t i ,

April 5, 1978 Tape 621 IB-2 MR. LUSH: them up, just putting trailers into the sites allocated and levelling them up. Now there is not a Newfoundlander alive but can do 'that. Again the few Newfoundlanders were there was annoying to me and I looked into the situation. I made it my business. This was back in 1968, whenever the project started. I made it. my business to look into the situation and was told that a requisition was sent out to Canada Manpower for twenty carpenters and they could only find five. That was all they got. I did some further investigation, Mr.

Speaker, to find out by the time the requisition was at Canada Manpower what they were asking for was twenty finished carpenters. Now I do not know how that happens, how the requisition gets changed, how Manpower get that information but it was not finished carpenters they were looking for - people to level up trailers, they were not carpenters at all. But this is what the requisition asked for, twenty finished carpenters. I can relate dozens of examples, Mr. Speaker, of certain job requirements which were beefed up, were made sophisticated, almost - AN RON. MEMBER: These were not forty hour a week jobs. MR.

LUSH: Pardon? AN RON. MEMBER: These were not jobs like they are today, forty hour a week jobs. They were sixty, seventy, eighty hour a week jobs. MR. LUSH: Oh, sure. Right. No question. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. LUSH: Right. I mentioned those points, Mr. Speaker, just to illustrate the kinds of things that can go on and realising the difficulty that there is in forcing or bringing into effect a kind of legislation that would ensure that our people, that our Newfoundlanders and that our Labradorians were given the jobs for which they qualify. Certainly we must have that kind of legislation.

But I realize that it is difficult to enforce. But we must have some monitoring agency to check these matters out and as they now exist in Labrador. I think the Bartlett Enquiry certainly verified that there was and that there is discrimination against Newfoundland, unfair hiring practices, they referred to it as,

April 5, 1978 Tape )lo. 622 ~!- 1 l!R. LUSH: by certain companies. Right. And again I realize, as I have said before, the difficulty in trying to eliminate this situation but this is a question that I am going to deal with at a later date and actually get some information from the minister as to what precisely is happening ,,1ith respect to this Bartlett enquiry, •·•hether the minister is going to vait until the reco=endations are implemented or lvhether there is something he is doing nc,·7. I do believe that he has made some efforts but as I say I am going to bring that up at a later date. l!r.

Speaker, I speak on this motion because I do have an intense feeling for Labrador. One does not sper.d six years in Labrador without getting some intense feeling for r.abrador land and for its people, particularly in the !dnd of \vor!c in \Yhich I 1.;11as engaged, teaching, teaching students, tea chins people from Labrador, teaching people froM Coastal Labrador, young people and adults, meeting people from all parts of Labrador and discussing Hith them their problems and discussing with them their aims and their desires for the development of that great land.

Neither can a person work in a place like Churcnill Falls for five years, rubbing shoulders 1dth tl1e en5ineers au.d the scientists that ''ere thera, people in very skilled i'ositions, mixing with them and talking to them, without having some knowledge of the magnitude of that great development. lleeting all the people associated ~dth the job, people in Jrinco, Sir Val Duncan, ::r. ;rul:-,olland, Hr.

La;-,1Jert, all of t:1e :Oig people, the men of skill, so101e of th8.."11 engir.eers, some of them scientists, some of them fi:~ancial experts, and mB-atiJ.-:.g with ~!lese people fro:-:1 ti::J.e to tir"u.12, as I 3aid before - The same situation. ~m.. LUS:I: - the same situation - one could not, Mr. Speaker, spend five years there associating lvith these people, without having ;1' some knowledge of the immensity of this job to ~1ich I referred yesterday, and also I might tell the han. member I spent two summers in Labrador City, a SUmmer student employee, and I enjoyed it imnensely.

.•pril 5, 1973 'Zape :io . 62 ~ 2 :m.. LUS:I: I "'ant there, I do not k:'lO\i what I was cal ed, I "'eot working 1~it.h the horticultura.list? ,\1il !ION. ffilffiER; 'les . :IR. LUS:I: I went ttorkiog -with him first, doing tl e le~t:ns. So all oi t ese law-us oo 1:l1at main street ~ at runs in front of t. e cafete r ia, I do not kno;-; l.tha it is called no,,., I :1e!ped to ?Ut in t he la!;:;:lS there and the grass seed and all ;;s it t>"as but before I left I got ;Jro:zote d to a silo-vel oiler and t hat is • .. 1hat: I ·..~as io my secane S=r ther e , a shovel oiler, out in the Smalhrood mine.

So I have spent almost a totE!, Sir, of five and a half years really, five years in Chu-rchill and tNo S u=~ rs in Labrador City . And thus have an intense feelin~ fo r L.:~brador, an a;>pre ciation of h:s people a.nd t .air proble1DS . So I speak to this r.10t ion •.viti some de·gree of sincer ity. I meut: ioned, Ur . Speaker, the vas tn.ess of tile job at Churchill and I co tha t because some-1'!:!ere i .o this :notion it lllli!nt ions - and if r had a copy o.f it - it mentions, "~low be it therefore resolved that this hon .

Jlouse urges the provincial gove.=e:~.t to commence immediate negotiations \·:rit~ tile fede ral gover=ent designed to bring about the bold creative econo.luic strategy of deve l oping and pro cessing within Labrador, its natural resources and raw materials." It is bold strategy. Now , ::r. S:;.•eaker , we have. precedent fot this 'l J i

.'l.;>ril 5, 1978 Tape No. 623 ~! - 1 ~m.. LUSli: in t~e formation of Brinco. This Yas a bold policy. In view of the tremendous amount of money that was needed to do that particular job, just about $1 billion, in view of the kind of technology that was involved, Brinco, which ~~as the company formed to bring together the finances and the people, the sldlls and the expertise necessary to do this job,l·as a bold venture to say the least.

Brinco, a syndicate of companies, of some of the largest com;>anies in the ~~orld that at the time of their formation controlled $20 billion of the resources of this ~1orld. $20 billion. Now, ~1r. Speaker, here was brought together something unparallelled al!IIOst in !IIOdern times, this big company, this syndicate a£ some of the world's largest companies to carry on the development of Labrador becaue it ~fas not only to develop the hydro pm<er, they also were employed to look into the mineral situation in Labrador, and ~•e got Brinnex responsible for exploring in Labrador and for development of minerals.

But the big achievement of Brinco ~vas the completion of the Churchill Falls. And as I suggested, l!r. Speaker, my five years there certainly tau:;ht me and infor:".led me of the tremendous accomplisl'-'!ent that this 1vas. I have driven over every inch of road tnere, visited every major site, all the damns and all the structures, driven from Churchill to Sail Lake, Northerly from Churchill to Lake Gab~ro, fro!:! Churchill to Lobs tick and from Churcl1ill to Esker, fis:1ing and areas no doubt that the hon. member for ::askaupi O~r.

Goudie) is a~:z.re. ()£ there. .A .. 'l' ~IOU. ~IE~!:3ER: Did you do any fishing while you were up tl .ere? Did the hon. member do any work when he was down there? ~!R. LUSH: All kinds' s ·ir' but you had lots of leisure time, lots of leisure time in Churchill Falls. In the North you gets lots of leisure time. And I caught some great fish. , ..

:\ ril 5, ln8 Ta pe :·o. 623 - 2 :::a. ;,.'EARY: That is lvily they have large families down there. ;-IR. LUSH: , aVigated the Churchill River, the big Churchill < 2iver for s ixty miles, up to Disaster P~pids that no doubt the ~on . cember for Naskaup i (~lr. Goucie) has hea.rc! about. N i 0 . . :!DIB ER: :::R. Lt:5'1: Disaster ~p ies . nu~ former ?ra mier, l ike t ~ e Smal h;ood - LUS:l: And watched, :1.r.

Spea ·er, t n e g radual c...ftan ge as th e r ivers, a s all of t i1 e , .. a cers :-1ere div ert-ad to run into the po -:er house area, and watched t h e Smal b .:ood res~;voir g r adually fill up that · .l.!ge man- made l ake, the t h ird lar gest ::mn- :i!ade lal::e in the :;hole •.;orld I think, that is 11here all t he water :.s stored to t he po•.Yer . ouse . But I believe i t i s the t :!.rd l:;.r ~ est can- c ade lake in t~e ~1orld. l t. ink there i s one i n Central :\:le rica so me·.~he re, maybe one i n, I just for get 11here.

I t ~ in k i t is in ~•a na oaybe, but I am not s u r e o n ~;a t . 3ut i t is the t h ird. I use tha t, ~- Speaker, to illustrat e t hat that was a bold plan . That was a bold plan and that was a l a r ge, :::tagnani mous <!. e velo ~ :n ent, t h .:.s un dertaking by .S r ioco tnat estaolisiled the eJ:amplw tllat this can I

April 5, 1978 Tape ~o. 624 .m- 1 :·IR. LUSH: be done and in view of the previous developments in Labrador that there is no question that I believe that with some energy and with some effort tl~t we can ap~roach the objective and the purpose of this motion, to develop the tremendous and the considerable resources of Labrador, tbe hydro, a fantastic amount of power still to be ~rnessed in Labrador in the Lower Churchill and the other rivers, fantastic the opportunity t;lat is there for tne people of this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Anti, ~k.

Speaker, no effort can be spared in developing tnat vast hydro resource that can change the entire economy of this province. I think this can be done. The preced 'ent i.as been set.

The exaople has been given and we can do it, I think 1and then the vast mineral resource - I know we are into a little world slump at this moment with respect to demand of mineral resources but I am sure that that is going to cure itself in a short wnile and when it does we can get on to developing the vast potential, the vast mineral potential in Labrador, the iron ore and uranium and otber minerals that we know are in Labrador and in abundance the vast fcrest potential. Many people, Mr.

Speaker, fail to realize .I the vast forest potential of Labrador around the Lake Melville area and Sandwich Bay, great stands of timber there. Some of it is cut and in the woods now lying there and rotting,I understand,as a result of the close down of the Labrador Linerboard, wood that was cut and never got moved out of the wuods, thousands and thousands of cords. :{ow, Hr. Spc"'1:.er, ::hat is an unfortunate situation and we hope that somet:tiag could be done to salv~ge that woac..!. anci to get it harvc.steu. so ti1at the people of Labrador can set some returns from what has L1appened there.

But there are still vc.st, hugh timber stands in that area of Lake l1elville and Sandwich Bay and certainly tl1ere must be soue plan that we can come up w-ith to develop the forest industry for the people of Labrador. The resource is there. It is not something we do not know about, ~tr. Speaker. We can see it. It is there standing right in front of our eyes, a vast resource.

Ap ril 5 , 197-3 Tap~ :·o . 624 JH - 2 HR. LUSH: The fisheries still can be made a major industry in Labrador. !1lis summer we got treated . .to, the smoked artie char and that was delicious and the smoked salmon. I do not know who was responsible but I hope they can get some more for llS next slllllmer. It was delicious. A."'' RON. ~liD·lBER: The whole Department of Fisheries got it. }IR. LUSH: Did they? It was delicious stuff and I hope that we can get some more. .But the vast potential here, Mr. Speaker, as indicated in that effort, smoking artie char and the sa.lJilon.

Also of course we never talk of tourist development for Labrador beca\lSe of the difficulty of getting there. Hr. Speaker, I can assure you that there are people here who would go through a lot of expense to get down in l.abrador and catch the kind of fish that are down there, the trout and the kind of hunting that is there, fantastic. Gas an.d oil, well the government has been making plans for gas and oil for future development. As I intimated yest .erday, we on this side of the H~use, all of us,are in agreement with the plans that will ensure the maxirnrva development of any resource that is in this province.

April 5, 1978 Tape 625 IB-1 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, that is down the road,as the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Peckford) is so prone to say, down the road. I only wish it were a little closer to us. I hope down the road that we do find quantities of oil. I hope that we do come up ~nth the technology that will allow us to get that oil wit hout any destruction to the envir onment, to the marine life, and I am concerned. I certainly hope,am living in the hope that we are going to find oil there. But, Mr.

Speaker, I am concerned about now too because I have listed off the natural resources that there is no speculation about, that we are not dreaming about that are there for the development, the hydro development and the minerals and the fish and the forestry. They are all there. And that is not at all to make any derogatory remarks about the minister's activity with respect to his gas and oil plans and regulations, none at all. But I think we have got to be concerned with what we now have there and make the maximum effort and take the energy to see that these is developed in accordance with this motion.

The minister mentioned about the Greeks knowing about inflation. Well Aesop, that great fable writer knew something about wealth and natural resources. He said that wealth unused might as well not exist. So I would hope that we would develop the resources that we have and - AN HON. MEMBER: That is a fable. MR. LUSH: No, that is no fable. Aesop had some very good views ~n development,really. So it is no fable that, Mr. Speaker, no fable at all. I think what we have to do, Mr.

Speaker, is to put together this plan to develop the resources of Labrador in a way that is going to be beneficial, in a way that we are going to reap the maximum returns for the people and for the people of Labrador and for our own people. We have mentioned in this House so often the need 1 the desire by all of us to bring Labrador into the mainstream of the political and the economic life of this Province. I think, Mr. Speaker, ' ;

April 5, 1978 Tape 625 IB-2 MR. LUSR: we have proposed a plan, a plan if followed will change drastically che standard of living of the people, not only of Labrador but of chis entire Province. I think the onus is upon the governm.ent to see to it that this is not only a plan on paper ,as good as it is , but that some positive action is taken to develop that wealth. If the minister does not like Aesop's philosophy , John F. ~nnr:dy , t ile forwer President of the Unit ed States said, "Wealth is the means and the people are the ends .

All our material riches will ava il us little if we do not use them to expand the opportunities of our people.'' !ir. - P2rdon? MR. PECKFORD: The citation . MR. LUSR: The citation. That is from. Sir. I Chose Canada. MR. PECKFORD: I always knew that the Bolshevik Army bad their eyes on Kennedy. MR. LUSH: Pardon? MR. PECKFORD: I always knew that the Bolshevik Army had their eyes on Kennedy. MR. LUSH: That is not its original citation. Its original citation comes from Profiles in Courage by