LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 6 May, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRM AN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): We will call the Comm ittee to order. We are on Municipal Affairs. 1.(

d) Main Street Manitoba. The Memb er for Swan River. MR. D. M. (Doug) GOURL AY (Swan River): Mr. Chai rman, I wonder if the Minister can advise me if municipalities that form a business imp rovement area and maybe they are not necessarily interested in the Main Street Program, would the department have record of that business improvement area? MR. CHAIRM AN: Mr. Minister. HON . A.R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Yes. I am informed that there is a record. MR. GOURL AY: In that case, I wonder if the Minister could advise how many, if any, business improvement areas have been formed to date. MR.

ADAM: There are two, up to this point in time, Mr. Chairman. MR. GOURL AY: I think that was all I had. MR. CHAIRMAN: Tha t's 1.(

d) Ma in St reet Manitoba-pass; 2. Municipal Board: (

a) Salaries - the Member for Swan River. MR . GOURL AY: The Munici pal Board, I am wonder­ ing the Minister has replaced the board just recently. I wonder if he could advise the Comm ittee whether he was unhappy with the previous board that was serving. MR. ADAM: No, of course not. Mr . Ch airman. MR. GOURL AY: I wonder, then, if the Minister could advise why he replaced the board as of, I think, the 1 st of April or something like that. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chair man. what we did is extend the term for three months, I believe, and it's usually tradi­ tional that when a new governm ent comes in, they look at all the boards and commis sions and they change them around. That is traditional. I am sur e it was done in 19 77 as well as 19 81. MR. GOURL AY: The Minister has announced the app ointment of. I believe, 10 memb ers to the board. ls he planning on expanding that board in the near future? MR. ADAM: Mr. Chai rman, I think there are 11 appointme nts. Let me just check that for a moment. There are 11 mem bers to the board. Ther e has been a practice in the past, Mr.

Chairman. to have 14 members on the board. There have always been provisions or funding provided for 14 members, but they have never been app ointed. Over the years. only 12 have been appointed. As a result of that, this year since we have never appo inted the 14 , we have reduced the funding for that allocation and there are 11 appointed at this point in time. MR. GOURL AY: How are the members paid? I thought they were just paid for when they worked. Do they get a monthly ... MR. ADAM: They're paid a per diem, Mr. Chairma n, whenever they sit. The Chairman, of course, Mr.

Ack­ land. is a full-time position and I guess, perhaps. some staff. There are staff as well that are full-time posi­ tions. The mem bers of the Municipal Board are paid on a per diem whenever they are sitting. MR. �OU RLAY: Yes. Mr. Chairma n. I notice that the amount of money allocated for salaries is down slightly from last year and I was wondering the reason for that. Do you expect that there won't be as many hearings required? MR. ADAM: No. Mr. Chai rman, I just explained that to the mem ber, that normally they have always provided funding for 14 mem bers.

That's been done over the years but they have apparently never app ointed 14 , only 12 were appoi nted so we always had a surplus. This year we decided there was no use asking for the appr opriation if we were never using it and that is why it shows as a reduction. It has nothing to do with how many times they sit. MR. GOURL AY: Mr. Cha irman, I thought they just got paid per meeting when they sat so what difference would it make whether there were six on there or fifty? They only get paid when they meet and there's only so many per meeting. Is that not right? 2283 MR.

ADAM: The reason we have 11, 12 , 14 mem bers on the Board is so that there will be some flexib ility. A lot of these people have other businesses and other occupations and they can't go to every meeting. It would disrupt their normal way of life and their normal business practise and so whenever they're called upon to come. if they can come they come, and that's why we try to app oint them on a regional basis as well so that there's not too much travelling involved. MR. GOURL AY: I just don't understand that part of it. I wonder, does the government pick up all of the expenses of the Board's hearings now? MR.

ADAM: I am informed that we do. yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (a)- pass; 2. (

b) Other Expenditu res-pass. Resolution No. 95. RESOLVE that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $307,800 for Munici pal Affairs' for the Municipal Board' for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 83-pass;

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 Move on to No. 3. Munici pal Budget and Finance, 3. (

a) Salaries-pass. The Member for Swan River. MR. GOURL AY: I notice that has dropped slightly. What is the situation with respect to the reduction? MR. ADAM: There is a reduction there due to staff turnover; that's where the reduction comes in. MR. GOURL AY: So there's really no change. MR. ADAM: No, Mr. Chai rman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (

a) Salaries -pass; 3. (

b) Other Expenditu res -pass; 3. (

c) Grants to Municipalities in Lieu of Taxes. The Mem ber for St. No rbert. MR. G.W.J. (Ge rry) MERCIER (SI. Norbert): On (c), Mr. Chair man, the explanation indicates that this amount is to cover an increase to reflect 19 82 pay­ ments plus a 6-percent increase to allow for mill-rate increases. I take it that's just an estimate of the mill­ rate increases you expect in this year. MR. ADAM: Yes. MR. MERCIE R: What was the actual figure last year? MR. ADAM: We'll just check that out, Mr. Chairman. The amount last year was grants in lieu of taxes $1 6,260, 700.00. MR.

MERCIE R: That was the amount budge ted for, what was the actual figure paid out? MR. ADAM: The actual figure was $1 6,01 5, 10 0.00. MR. MERCI ER: That includes the grants to the City of Winnipeg including the grant on this building to the City of Winnipeg? MR. ADAM: Yes, I'm advised that is correct. MR. MERCIE R: The amount paid on this building this year to the City of Winnipeg is the same as last year? MR. ADAM: I believe so, yes. MR. MERCIER: Is the Minister considering - I know there's a reference to that in Mr. Weir's report - any adjustme nt in that figure? MR.

ADAM: I guess that'll follow from the recom­ mendations whatever is done with the recommenda­ tions will be dealt with at that time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. GOURL AY: I believe that the rural municipalities have met with the Minister and requested some con­ sideration for payment of taxes on provincially-owned Crown lands and you haven't taken this into consid­ eration in the Estimates here. I'm just wondering did you reject that proposal from municipalities? MR. ADAM: We haven't rejected it; we are reviewing it and considering it at this time. MR.

GOURL AY: So there could be some revision in this if you decide to pay taxes on these Crown lands to ... MR. ADAM: That may well be. MR. GOURL AY: I think that's all I have. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's 3. (c) -pass. 3. (

d) Ur ban Transit Grants. The Mem ber for St. Norb ert. MR. MERCIE R: Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, according to the explanation, there is a 10 percent increase in Handi- Transit Grants, that is for munici­ palities providing transportation for the physically handicapped outside of the City of Winnipeg. Did the Minister impose a freeze on transit fares outside the City of Winnipeg? MR. ADAM: Mr. Chai rman, there was no freeze on the fares outside of the City of Winnipeg. MR. MERCIER: Can the Minister explain why they would be imposed in the city and not outside of the City of Winnipeg? MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chai rman, the fees outside the city haven't been changed for a numb er of years and that would be one of the reasons why there has been no restrictions on outside, the fees have been pretty con­ stant, consistent for a numb er of years outside of the city. MR. MERCIER: The Minister is saying there have been no increases in transit fares outside of the City of Winnipeg. 2284 MR. ADAM: No, not as far as we know. MR. MERC IE R: Mr. Chair man, I think this the right department, I asked the Minister.

It seems to me there was consideration being given to expansion of Handi­ Transit programs throughout the province, is this Minister responsible or is the Honou rable Minister of Highw ays and Transportation responsible? MR. ADAM: The Depa rtment of High ways is respon­ sible for that. You'll get him next year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (d). MR . GOURL AY: All of the Handi-Transit that is covered under the Minister of Transportation? MR. ADAM: Brandon comes under our department. MR. GOURL AY: That's the only one? MR. ADAM: Just Brandon is ours. MR.

GOURL AY: What is the situation with respect to the purchase of buses this year in the City of Brandon?

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 MR. ADAM: Yes, there have been two buses pur­ chased for the City of Brandon, Mr. Chairman. MR. GOURL AY: This is the last year for that current agreement, or is it ... ? MR. ADAM: The program runs till 19 84, I think. MR. GOURL AY: There is an arrangem ent for the pur­ chase of buses each year until 19 84? MR. ADAM: That's correct. MR. GOURL AY: Is Brandon the only one that partici­ pates in the purchase of buses under this program? MR. ADAM: That's correct. MR. CHAIRM AN: 3. (b) -pass. Resolution No. 96.

RESOLV ED THAT there be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 9,31 4,7 00 for Municipal Affairs, Municipal Budget and Finance for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 83-pass. No. 4. Municipal Assessments, Salaries. The Member for Swan River. MR. GOURL AY: I believe the Minister explained ear­ lier that there were 12 new positions or 12 SMYs in the Munici pal Assessment Branch and I see where at the present time, there's some closed ones advertising for trainee positions. MR. ADAM: Yes, there is. MR. GOURL AY: Three positions? MR. ADAM: Yes, three. MR.

GOURL AY: What other posit ions would be included in the 12 ? MR. ADAM: There's supp ort staff, I believe, eh? They're all trainees, I'm informed. MR. GOU RLAY: These trainees are to be located in various regions? MR. ADAM: That's correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. GOURL AY: What is the current situation with respect to assessments at this time? How many municipalities have not been reassessed in the last five years? MR. ADAM: Mr. Ch airman, it will take a few minutes to accum ulate that information. Staff is tabulating that now. It will take a few minutes to count them up. MR. CHAIRM AN: Maybe we can get back to it.

The Member for Swan River. MR. ADAM: He has another question perhaps. MR. GOURL AY: Yeah, I wonder, it has been indi­ cated I think for several years now that there has been a shortage of assessors to be able to maintain the reassessment, to keep it up-to-date under the requirement of the statutes to have reassessment done every five years and you've made provision for some new assessors this year. Will this suffice to do the catch-up work? MR. ADAM: No, I don'tt hink it will, Mr. Chair man, but it's certainly going to assist in speeding up the process. MR.

GOURL AY: With respect to the Assessment Review Comm ittee's recommendations - I realize of course that these recommendations have only come in recently - but how do you see the recom menda­ tions affecting the whole reassessment procedure? Will we still need extra people to, I guess, do the evaluations and catch-up work? Is this right or is there some other method that we can use other than Manpower? MR. ADAM: At the present time we would need addi­ tional staff to do a catch-up and move toward compu­ terization of the system. That's perhaps in the long term or the intermediate term but move into that direction.

MR. GOURL AY: Mr. Chai rman, a question was asked of the Minister in the last couple of days regarding the assessment review recommendations and the Minis­ ter advised that staff were reviewing the report and would be reporting back to the Minister in due course. I wonder, when does the Minister expect to get this information from his staff? MR. ADAM: Mr. Chair man, it's pretty difficult to give an exact date. As the memb er is aware it's quite a technical document and there's a lot of recommenda­ tions contained therein. The process is already started by staff to study the recommendations.

It's not going to be done overnight, it's going to take some time to look at all the recommendations and try and analyze the implications of the recommendation. Of course, the recommendations themselves indicate that it will be 19 87 before we could implement those recom­ mendations by the time they're all analyzed and put in place, even if we were to accept them. 2285 MR. GOURL AY: I'd just like to ask the Minister, does he not feel that it would be advisable for the govern­ ment to take a position with respect to the recom­ mendations before he goes back to meet with the various municipal organizations.

I think he indicated in another question yesterday, or the day before, that he was wanting some more feedback from the various people in the province, including the UMM and the MAUM and other interested people in Manitoba, and that the government wasn't going to do anything, I think his words were, until he did get some feedback. I would think it would be important for the government to take a position with respect to the recommenda­ tions, to go out, if they're going to hold meetings throughout the province to meet with the various municipal people, so they would at least have a start­ ing position.

To go back now to the people I' m sure they're going

Thur sday, 6 May, 1982 ����������������- to be wondering what's going on when recom.nenda­ tions have been laid before the government and a comm ittee goes back out into the country wanting to get more information from the people, they're going to be wondering what's happened to the recommen­ dations that the governm ent has already received. I' m wondering what is the Minister's reason for not taking a position with respect to the recommendations before meeting with these various municipal people, for instance, the Municipal Advisory Comm ittee. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chair man, the mem ber knows and it's quite a technical document and I'm sure that the local munici palities out there would want to have suf­ ficient time to analyse the report as well as staff. That's what we're doing now, we're attempting to ana­ lyse what's in the document and I' m sure that the munici palities as well will want to have sufficient time to look at this docume nt and once they have looked at it and then we go ahead and meet with them and see what the reaction is to it. That's what we want.

There maybe other alternatives to the recommendations; there maybe some other way to proceed on some of the recomme ndati ons. It doesn't mean because the recommendations are there that they will all be satis­ factory to local government out there, or to the people that will be affected by it. We want to know how the recommendations will affect people and we'd like to measure what shifts will take place as opposed to, say, rural and urban, out in the municip ality, for instance, that may have urban areas within the munic­ ipality and so on.

This is all information that we would lik e to have, of course, and know and we want the people out there to know what's happ ening before we start implementing - this is a major change, Mr. Chairman, that is being undertaken to try and resolve a very, very difficult problem. We don't want to create problems we want to eliminate the ones that are there. We've been with the present system for many, many years and once we do make a change we want to make sure that we're not mak ing an error or that we're mak­ ing a mistake; we want to be sure that we're doing the right thing.

We know that some of the other ju risdic­ tions have changed their systems as well, Br itish Columbia and Toronto and so on. We would want to get some information from there, how the changes have affected those areas. This is why it's not some­ thing that's going to be done overnight but when it is done and when it is finalized that we have something that we can be proud of and not gone ahead to rashly and without a lot of dialogue with the people that'll be affected by it. That's the position that I feel we should take and I think that's a responsible position. MR. GOU RLAY: Yes, I realize, Mr.

Chair man, that all of the munici pal people will not be in agreem ent with the recommendations that have been brought for­ ward but I think the onus is now on government to take a position with respect to those recommenda­ tions. The municipal people have supp lied the infor­ mation and it's been worked over and recommenda­ tions brought to the government. Unless the govern­ ment goes back with some kind of position on those recommendations, what kind of dialogue can the Min­ ister expect from the municipalities at this point with­ out having some position on them? 2286 MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chai rman, that is the reason why I' ve asked staff to look at the implications of the report. Let's not forget, Mr. Chai rman, that it took the Com­ mittee 2.5 years to put it together and if he thinks that we're going to study it in 2.5 weeks or in 2.5 months, well I would like to inform the member that that's just not possible. The staff can't do it; I don't think the member himself can do it; I don't think the local gov­ ernment out there can do it. I think they're going to have to have time to review this and see what the implications are and that's the reason why we're tak­ ing this approach. MR.

GOU RLAY: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate there's been a lot of work go into the recommendations. My concern is why go back to the municipal people until you have this position? You indicated that you weren't going to do anything until you got some more feed­ back from the people out in the province. MR. ADAM: I hope that when we do go out with them that we will be able to determine some of the implica­ tions of the recom mendation of the report. I think we will be in a position to illustrate what would take place if we implement the major recommendations and so on.

That's what my staff will be doing in the next while. It may take a numb er of months to determine just what the implications of this report will mean to people of Manitoba and I hope when we do go out and have hearings that we'll be able to tell the people: "Well, here's the report, this is what it means. What do you think of it? You think we should go ahead with this or not, or is there another way, is there another alterna­ tive rather than this way?" Certainly we want to have something to tell the people out there but it's not going to be done overnight. MR. GOU RLAY: I' m encouraged by your comments, Mr.

Minister, that there will be a position taken before you go back to meet with the people. Is this not what you're saying? MR. ADAM: The member is saying that I would have a position. I have never said I would have a position, I said we would know what the document is saying and we would be able to tell the people out there in the local government, that this is what the document says; what will happen if we implement these recom­ mendati ons; what do you think of it, do you thin k we should go ahead. This is the feedback I want to get. I want the people to either appr ove or disapprove, that's their prerogative.

We want to know how they receive this report. MR. GOURL AY: I wonder if the Minister would com­ ment on his thoughts towards the recommendation of the single assessing authority in the province rather than the two that we have in place at the present time. MR. ADAM: Mr. Cha irman, again, I would lik e to have my staff analyse the implications of this. It's an option and certainly we will be looking at it very closely and see if that is the way to proceed. I think it sounds interesting and we'll certainly look at it very closely. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert.

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 MR. MERCIER: Mr. Cha irman, the Minister said that he intends to have a legislative comm ittee hold hear­ ings is that correct? MR. ADAM: Yes. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate what consultation he has had with the Mayor and the official delegation of the City of Winnipeg before he has decided to proceed in this way? MR. ADAM: I haven't had any delegations from the city to this point in time. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, has the Minister had any discussions at all with the City of Winnipeg about the report? MR.

ADAM: The Minister of Urb an Affairs will cer­ tainly be having a dialogue with them; we have not had any. MR. MERCIER: Has the Minister had any discussion with the Minister of Ur ban Affairs about the City of Winnipeg's approach to the report? MR. ADAM: Not to deal with that question, no. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am amazed that a report which the Minister has indicated has been developed for some two-and-a-half years in close consultation with the City of Winnipeg, as I under­ stand it Mr. Weir and his comm ittee worked very closely with Mr. Reimer and Mr.

Schmidt from the City in providing information and developing this report, now the report is received and the Minister is telling us that he's em barked upon a unilateral approach to the consideration of that report, without any consultation with the Mayor and the official delegation of the City or, it would app ear, the Minister of Ur ban Affairs. This is a report that affects not only the area outside of the City of Winnipeg but it's very important to the City of Winnipeg. Can the Minister offer any excuse at all for not discussing it with the City? MR. ADAM: Mr.

Ch airman, we have received a brief from the City of Winnipeg and we have examined it, the staff has exam ined it, and we have sent them a copy of the report, of course, and they will be analyz­ ing it as well at this particular time, I presume. That is the reason we will have the meetings, so we can dia­ logue with them; that is the reason for the comm ittee and we hope that the Memb er for St. Norbert will be on that committee to dialogue with the City of Win­ nipe g and the Town of Dauphi n and the Towns of Neepawa and Morden. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr.

Chai rman, following along the comme nt to the Member for Swan River, the City of Winnipeg must have, if it's equivalent to population, significant portion of assessment in the total province and they have had difficulties, as have municip alities outside the Cit y of Winnip eg.

Does it not seem to the Minister that rather than emb ark upon Leg islative Com mittee hearings- at least makin g that decision at this moment to emb ark upon Legis lative Com mittee hearings, when we read comments from officials of the munici pal organizations that there's been enough hearings and there's been enough dis cussion and it's time for some decisions by the governme nt - would it not appear to the Minister to be more practical to have his depar tment review the report, receive their recommendations and at the same time have the City conduct its own review and make its recommenda­ tions and then maybe there would at least be some interim steps that could be taken to resolve some of the problems.

MR. ADAM: Mr. Ch airman, the report was tabled on April 19 th, as he is aware. The City, I'm sure needs just as much time, perhaps more time, than rural munici­ palities because of the complexities of the assess­ ment in the City of Winnipeg and they're going to require more time, I would say, than an ordinary municipality. So we will dialogue with them and that is the reason why we will be setting up a committee once they've had time to have a thorough review of the recommendations, then we will dialogue with them as to see whether they approve of them or disappr ove of them. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, that may well be true but it's an assumption by the Minister, he hasn't even discussed it with the Mayor and the official dele­ gation, all it is is an assump tion. Maybe that would be their position but I'm appalled that he hasn't had the courtesy to have a discussion with them before decid­ ing to take the approach of Legislative Comm ittee hearings. The Minister indicated the other day, Mr. Chairman, that he would be introducing a Bill to freeze assess­ ments. Can he indicate for how many years that will be? MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chai rman, in the letter that we have written to the municipalities and to the City of Win­ nipeg , when we mailed out the report we indicated to them that we were sending them the report and that if they wanted to discuss these recommendations with us we would be prepared to discuss it with them. So, we haven't discounted that whatsoever, we have invited them to come and discuss it with us.

I say to the memb er we have indicated that once they have had time to study the report we will be setting up a com mittee and we will dialogue with them on what they have found and what staff has found and the studie s that we have made in regard to how this will affect certain municipalities and so on in urban areas. We think this is the best way to proceed. It's a cautious way to proceed and I think we should be proceeding very cautiously without rushing into something that we may regret later on. 2287 MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chai rman, I asked the Minister for how long he would propose to freeze assessment in the Bill he intends to introduce at this session. MR. ADAM: When the Bill is brought to the House the member will then find out. MR. MERCIER: Why can't we find out now, Mr. Chai rman?

MR. ADAM: Because you will find out when it's tabled in the House. MR. MERCIER: Now I know how the City of Winnip eg feels. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. (a)-pass MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Swan River wanted to know how many municipalities had gone beyond the five-year requirement. There are 111 municip alities plus several commun ities in Northern Manitoba that are over the five years. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, in the proposal of the Minister to go take a travelling road show out ... MR. ADAM: Oh, is that what it is. MR.

GR AHAM: . .. has the Minister not got any prop­ osals to put before them for their considera tion at that time? MR. ADAM: The intent of the committee meetings would be to convey to the municipalities and the peo­ ple out there what the implications are of the recom­ mendations, to get their feedback on that. MR. GR AHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I believe the municipalities are already aware of that.

They have been in consultation with the commission not once, not twice, but in some cases three times during the preparation of the report and if you're ask ing elected officials to come to meetings, I think it's important that they have some proposals that they should be attemp ting to discuss. To go to a meeting with your cap in hand I think you could be going in 50 different directions at one time and you would proba bly end up with more confusion at the completion than you would at the beginning and, I think, from what I've hear so far tonigh t, there's enough confusion already. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, I would advise the hon­ ourable memb er that, yes, there have been briefs presented to the Commit tee, and perhaps more than once, but there has been very little dialogue. There have been groups that have met with the Comm ittee and presented briefs but there hasn't been any gen­ eral dialogue with the public at all and I think the public have to be aware of what's happening around them. It is my feeling, at least, and the feeling of this govern ment, that before we do make major change s, such as we are proposing to do at the present time, that at least people understand what's happening around them.

I think that's the only responsible way to proceed. MR. GR AHAM: Mr. Ch airman, if the Minister is going to say that the commission report is the govern ment proposal that they're going to discuss that's well and good, but from what I have heard from the Minister on previous occasions he wasn't too sure if he was going 1982 to accept any of it or part of it or even going to con­ sider parts of it. I think it would be appropriate for the municipal people, before they go to a public meeting, to know what parts of the report the Minister was consideri ng.

Some parts he could say, "I want to leave for five years," some he doesn't want to do anything with at all. I think it would be more beneficial and you would have more meaningful dialogue if the Minister could indicate, before those public hearings are held, what areas the Minister wants to proceed with or to seek their opinions on. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not sure if the member is suggesting that we accept these recommend ations com pletely and implement them immediately without talking to the farmers out there; whether they want to have their farm buildings assessed and whether the local governments are in favour of that. There are serious implications that are going to affect people. We are affecting people's lives out there, Mr. Chair­ man, and this is something that I don't think we should be rushed into. We are going to look at this; the staff is doing that now.

It's going to take some time before we can get a report back from staff on what the implica­ tions are and, until that is done, there's no way that we're going to make up our minds one way or the other until we get a report back. I think if the mem bers opposite were in government they would be tak ing the long look at this themselves, Mr. Chairman. MR. GR AHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not sugges ting that the Minister stand up tomo rrow and say: "This is what we're going to do and what propos als we're going to take forward." I think there is time for this report, but in doing that he has to establish a time frame because he has indicated he is going to bring forward a bill to freeze assessments. So far he hasn't told us how long he's going to freeze it for. We've had a freeze on for two years now. The discrepancies are getting greater all the time. There has to be some changes made fairly soon so there is a certain element of urgency in that respect.

It would be my hop e that the Minister will act fairly quickly, and when I say fairly quickly I mean within the next 12 months. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, the Comm ittee recom­ mended that the freeze be extended and they have laid out a timetable in the recommendation and I appr eciate the honourable mem ber's views and we will certainly try and proceed this as fast as we can; speed it up as fast as we can, Mr. Chairman. 2288 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pem bina. MR. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I note by the explanation sheet that was handed out that there are to be 11 additional assessors brought on staff. What will that make the assessment staff complement? MR. ADAM: I wonder, would the honourable memb er repeat that. I was just in consultation here with the Deputy. MR. ORCHARD: There are 11 assessors as additional staff in this year's Estimates. With the 11 , what's the

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 total complement of assessors? MR. ADAM: There were 12 8 prev ious to the 12 SM Y's for this year; that's 14 0, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORC HARD: Assessors? 14 0 assessors? MR. ADAM: That's staff. Mr. Chairman, the staff is tabulating the number at the present time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Pembina, would you care to go ahead and we can get back to that when you get the answer. MR. ORCH ARD: Well, I want to get the answer on that before too much longer but perhaps the Minister would care to answer the next question.

In rural Manitoba, what is happe ning right now with farm assess ment particular ly? Is ther e any re­ assessment going on? MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Ch airman, there is assessments going on at the present time. MR. ORC HARD: Now, in this re-assessment, is there an increased effort going on right now or is this part of the normal re-assessment that, from time to time, has tak ing place in the province? MR. ADAM: It's normal. MR. ORCHARD: Are the assessors now valuing buildings in areas where they formally had not put a value on farm buildin gs? MR. ADAM: Mr. Ch airman, they are following the legislative requirements.

MR. ORC HARD: Which are? MR. ADAM: All buildings, Mr. Chair man are being assessed. MR. OR CHARD: When was that? When the Minister mentions that's the legislative requirement, how long has that been the legislative requirement? MR. ADAM: I'm advised it goes back to 19 44, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCHARD: Have previous reassessments valued the build ings or is this a new compliance with the legislation? MR. ADAM: Yes and no, is the answer? MR. OR CHARD: This is a wonderful monolog ue we're having here. MR. ADAM: We're doing it for all of them now, Mr. Chairman. MR.

ORCH ARD: Now, when you say they're doing it for all of them, I assume you mean all of the municipal­ ities? Which municipalities? Okay, I won't ask wh ich because that may be a little difficult to come by, but roughly what percentage of municipalities in the past had an assessment done which assessed all farm buildings? MR. ADAM: Approx imately 10 to 20 percent, I' m advised. MR. ORC HARD: And would that 10 or 20 percent have been municipalities in and about the Winnip eg area, Brandon area, the major urban centres? MR. ADAM: It could be anywhere, I'm advised. MR.

ORCHARD: How long has the assessment now been going to take in all of the buildings? MR. ADAM: Since 19 79, Mr. Chair man. MR. ORCH ARD: Now part of the recommendation of the Weir Report indicates certain new measures in terms of farm outbuilding assessment, etc., would the Minister, in terms of a policy of his govern ment, be in favour of taxation of farm buildin gs, other than a resi­ dence, say the hog barn on a family farm or the grain storage or the machinery shed? MR. ADAM: That is a policy matter that will be decided later on. MR.

ORCH ARD: Well, I appreciate it will proba bly be a policy decision decided later on, but surely the Min­ ister must have an opinion as Minister of Municipal Affairs with the responsibility of the assessment and levying of taxation on the rural municipalities of the province, he must have a feeling one way or another as to whethertha t is a worthy change in taxation or an unworthy change in taxation that he would not supp ort. MR.

ADAM: In the present economic times that we' re going through with a very fragile agriculture economy at the present time, I would want to study it very thoroug hly what the impact would be before I would come to a decision on that. MR. ORC HARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to make a liberal

interpretation of what the Minister says and I'm going to say that he would not favour farm outbuilding taxation. MR. ADAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I said that in view of the very fragile - I' ll repeat it- in view of the very fragile situation of the farm economy any new assessment regulations that we undertake, I would certainly want to study very carefully on what impact it would have on the farm economy before I would want to assess outbuildings, or whatever it is they are. MR.

ORCH ARD: Well, needless to say and I am quite sure the Minister is well aware of this, there is a fairly large concern and, I supp ose, it stems from uncer­ tainty in the rural com munity about the potential assessment in taxation of all farm buildings, including the farm residence which now is, of course, tax exempt if a person makes the majority of his net income from farm ing purposes. I suppose that part of 2289

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 that concern is out there because the farm commu nity is quite aware of the Weir Report� he Weir Study on assessment. Natu rally, when assessors now are com­ ing along in a lot of municipalities and in doing the reassessment, where before they had only assessed the land and now they are assessing the buildings, that further fuels the speculation that this government is going to be taxing all farm buildings. I've been doing my doggo nedest to tell them, no, this govern­ ment wouldn't do such a thing.

I' m trying to be as fair as I can with this Minister and this government, but I think the Minister can surely app reciate the uncer­ tainty and concern. He mentioned himself, I think he termed it the fragile economic situation that's out there in rural Manitoba right now. Well that fragile economic situation would be in view of the farmer­ owners exasperated by farm building assessment and taxation, hence the concern.

Hence, my question earlier, which wasn't a face­ tious one, to try to put the Minister on any kind of a hot seat, hence my question is to how this Minister views, as Minister responsible for Municipal Affairs, the assessment of a farm building taxation?

Because if the Minister clearly said that, for instance, only farm homes would ever be assessed and taxed and the major investment in grain storage and machinery sheds, in livestock production buildings would not be taxed, it would certainly alleviate a number of the concerns that are out there right now with this reas­ sessment go ing on, adding to the assessment rolls, farm buildings. That's why I ask for the Minister's clarification and I would hope that he could provide us with that this evening. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chai rman, I appreciate the member's comments, but I would point out to him that the assessment of the farm buildings, I guess, really got under way when his governm ent was in office and if we were to accept the recommendations of the assessment review committee, I guess, we would be assessing some of the farm buildings. From what I have been hearing from the mem bers that have been asking questions, up until this point in time, is that we should go ahead as soon as possible with the recom­ mendati ons.

There seems to be a sense of urgency and I've been trying to say that we shouldn't proceed too fast, we should take a close look at this; that's my position. What I'm hearing is, hurry up, let's get the show on the road. I am saying that I don't want to do that, I want to have a very long serious look at what is happ ening. I appr eciate the mem ber's comments, but is he saying that we should go ahead and assess farm buildings, or should we not? I'm trying to avoid going into the recommendations of the Assessment Review Comm ittee because we'll be here for another three months.

That is why we're having the staff study the report and give us some recommendations on what the implications are, then we go out and dialogue with the people that will be affected by it, because there has been not dialog ue with the general public. There has been dialog ue with some of the organized groups such as Local Government Districts and municipali­ ties and other groups have come in and presented briefs to the Assessment Review Comm ittee, but there hasn't been that wide dialogue that we would like to hear before we proceed with any of these recommendations. MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chai rman, this Minister when he's unable to come up with an answer, provides his view of what's been going on, in his view the mem bers in the Opposition are urging him to proceed imme­ diately with the Weir Commis sion and implement its recommendations. That, the Minister well knows is not what he's being asked to do tonight and any attempt by him to put that on the record will lead him to rather dangerous waters. So I might caution the Minister that he not try to put words in the Opposi­ tion's mouth.

What we are trying to find out tonight and I don't know whether the Minister either is able to tell us or maybe, more pointedly, willing to tell us, is his feel­ ings on the farm building assessment. Because now there's a numb er of municip alities that are under reassessment right now; buildings are being assessed; there is concern out there. The Wier Report has been tabled; there has been the consultation; the briefs from individuals to the Weir Comm ission in the last two years and they'd like to get a feeling for what this government and what this new Minister feels about the issue of farm building taxation.

The Minister could hold himself in good light if he would clarify that issue for rural Manitobans; until he does there is going to be that suspicious view over­ hanging and I only add to the Minister that his col­ leag ue, the Minister of Agriculture, has not endeared this government to rural Manitobans. I would suggest he try not to do the same as his Minister of Agricul­ ture, but rather provide some forthright statements and leadership to the rural comm unity and provide an answer to the question I' ve been asking him tonight. 2290 MR. ADAM: Well, I really thank the member for his comments.

I think maybe we're closer together than I thought we were. I was getting the impression that the idea of establishing a legislative comm ittee was a waste of time and that we should deal with the recommendati ons and do something. That's the impr ession that I' ve been getting in the discussion we've had up this point in time and I'm pleased to hear that that is not the case now. I get a clear picture that the mem bers opposite do not want us to proceed too qu ickly on this and they want us to take a long look at it. I app reciate that, if that is the position now.

I want to say to the honourable memb er that there is no way that we're going to go out and make decisions that will hurt farmers or put them out of business. We want to see the measure of shifts that are going to take place on the recommendations if they are implemented, and if I unde rstand correctly now the mem bers opp o­ site do not want me to proceed too quickly, I'm very pleased with that. MR. ORC HARD: Mr. Chairman, I'll let the Minister develop his confused positions for pro and con and continue his monologue with himself we -( Inter­ jection) - no, it's monologue with this Minister it's not a dialogue.

We don't have to worry in the Opposition of this government proceeding too quickly on any, so we're not really concerned about that. After all, we did have

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 promised this Beef Income Assurance Program, Emergency Interest Relief none of which has come to bear, so we're not worried about too quickly. Could the Minister now answer how many assessors they have? MR. ADAM: There are 94, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCHARD: Is that 94 with the 11 new ones, or 94 with the old ones? MR. ADAM: That doesn't include the 12 SM Ys, because they haven't been authorized yet, I presume. MR. ORC HARD: Do you intend, if and when you get your Estim ates through, to hire all 11 assessors that you're providing SMY funding for in these Estimates? MR.

ADAM: We certainly hope to, if we can obtain them. MR. ORCH ARD: So that means that there would be 10 5 assessors on staff sometime this fiscal year? MR. ADAM: Yes, that is correct. MR. ORCHARD: Well, what will be the frequency of reassessment now with the 10 5 assessors? MR. ADAM: The problem is that may not change; it may not be a greater change immediately because it takes four years to train an assessor. So it's a slow process to get people on staff and it's unfortunate that we haven't had staff sooner than this.

I understand that the department have been requesting additional assessors for a number of years now; for whatever reason, whether it was because of lack of funding or cut-backs or restraint, staff was never acquired and we were very fortunate that I was able to have the approval to obtain 12 SMYs. MR. ORCHARD: Four years of training - is that at the university, on the job, technical school, where? MR. ADAM: It's on-the-job training. They start at a certain level; they do certain types of assessment and they just keep moving on and slowly ... some of it is pretty technical, I'm sure the memb er knows.

To become a qualified appraiser is not an easy task. MR. ORCH ARD: How does the assessment branch establish farm land values? MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I' ll get Mr. Reimer here to assist me on that. I am informed that the method used is, first, productivity of the soil per acre, established per acre and related to the sales data, is how they arrive at assessment values. MR. DEPU TY CHAIRM AN, John Plohman (Dauphin): The Memb er for Pembin a. MR. ORCHARD: Is the Canadian Land Inventory System used at all? MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Ch airman. MR.

ORCHARD: Okay, so you go on the sales data and I would assume that would be on comparable soil types in the immediate vicinity if there's been any recent sales. How do you establish the prod uctivity? Do you go by Departme nt of Agriculture estimates on wh at productivity should be or do you go to actual productivity? MR. ADAM: Manitoba Soil Surveys and Manitoba Crop Insu rance and Depar tment of Agricultu re, so there a number of areas where they get soil tests and so on. There are a number of areas of how they arrived at productivity. MR. ORCHARD: Is that productivity information computerized? MR.

ADAM: No, not at this time. MR. OR CHARD: Would that not be something that could be comput erized relatively easily to determine a certain productivity value for every acre of land in the province? MR. ADAM: Yes, I think there's a start on it already but it's certainly a direction to go into; that we should be going into. MR. ORCHARD: When was that start made, Mr. Chairm an? 2291 MR. ADAM: It is just under way now, Mr. Chai rman, perhaps about two weeks ago. MR.

ORCHARD: The assessor, when he calls on a farmyard, he would naturally now be taking a look at all of the building that are there; their condition, their size, their structural soundness and he would also, I presu me, undertake discussion with the farmer on land-ty pe, any unique problems he's got on his land so that if he had, say, some alkali patches or some highly eroded spots or whatever, that would be noted by the assessor? MR. ADAM: Yes, that is the normal proced ure. MR. ORCHARD: Would these assessors, as a matter of routine, ask a farmer for an opinion of the value of land owned by his neighb our?

For instance, would an assessor go into my yard and ask me what I thought about my neighbour s land; how good it was; how well he farmed it; how productive it was? MR. ADAM: He probably could, I suppose, if it would assit him on finding out the type of land in the area, and I'm sur e that he would. MR. ORCHARD: Well, I guess maybe that's one area that I have some concerns about, because neigh­ bours have a habit of talking with one another after the revenuers have been there - because anybody from governm ent is sort of a revenuer - and qu ite frankly, Mr.

Minister, they object to what they con­ sider to be some cross-examination as to the value of their land because the assessor has asked them cer­ tain questions about their land, what it can do and

whatnot, then they find out a couple of days later when they're having coffee with the neighb our, that the assessor was asking the neighbour questions about the neighbour 's land and they don't think that is a proper way to proceed. They have generally given information. I think, in 99.9 percent of the cases, they've gener­ ally given good data, good information and they do object to the implication that maybe they weren't exactly giving straight information and playing ball with the assessor and that the assessor has to verify what was said by confirming it with a neighbour and that causes some anxiety.

I think the Minister would want to exam ine that as a proced ure used by the assessor, so that the kind of concerns that can crop up in rural Manitoba don't crop up to the detriment of everyone involved. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I doubt very much whether there's cross-examination taking place in the light that the memb er suggests. In any event, no one is obligated to answer any questions, in any event, if they don't wish to. They're not forced to answer any questions. MR. ORCHARD: Well then, Mr. Chai rman, why ask the questions of a neighbour about his neigh bour's land? MR.

ADAM: If the memb er has any specific case that he wishes to bring to our attention we'd be glad to look at it, if he has a specific complaint to make. I would not want to leave on the record the impression that this is a commo n practice that he is complaining about and that there is a problem out there. I think the assessors will ask general questions of how the area is and what kind of soil and what kind of crops and so on. I would expect that would be 'the normal procedu re.

But if the member is sug gesting that there is something onerous going on out there, or subversive, or whatever you want to call it, I think most farmers are quite willing to provide the informa­ tion that is asked in a proper manner about land, soil, crops and whatever. So if the member has a specific case that he wants to draw to my attention, we are certainly prepared to look into it. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chai rman, the Minister has indicated that is the type of questioning and now he's saying that it's general questioning about crops in the area.

I'm referring to specific questioning about a neigh bour's land by assessors and it isn't of a general nature, it was of a specific nature. I question the necessity of that. I know the Minister has indicated that if there is a specific area he would be pleased to look into it. Mr. Chairman, one other question I' d lik e to ask the Minister on assessment. We have, for instance, some intensive livestock operations throughout the prov­ ince which are on a very limited land base and operate primarily by buying their feedstocks from neighbour ­ ing farms or from feed mills.

These are major broiler operations, laying-egg operations, hog bar ns, feed­ lots; those kinds of programs aren't what one would classify a family farm. They are often shareholder ­ owned agribu sinesses, yet the buildings aren't 1982 assessed or taxed. Does the Minister have any feeling for how those operations should possibly contribute to the taxation, municipal and school tax, in the area they're located in.? MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I think what the member is referring to is building-intensive operations where there isn't a very large landholding as opposed to other conventional-type farms.

These are more building- intensive and I think the Review Commit tee has looked at this and is probably one of the recom­ mendations - I haven't read all the report yet myself - probably that is in there and that is something that will be dealt with when we arrive at a decision. MR. ORC HARD: Does the Minister have a feeling as to how those operations should be taxed, if they should be taxed at all?

That's what I' m asking him, does the Minister believe they should be assessed and taxed or does he think they should maintain their tax-free status, because there generally is not a resi­ dence associated with these intensive livestock oper­ ations. So, does the Minister believe that because they don't fall into the traditional family farm defini­ tion, does he believe they should be assessed and taxed as an agribusiness much similar to the assess­ ment raised on a fertilizer bulk plant, for instance, or a commer cial seed-cleaning plant, those types of operations? MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr.

Chai rman, this is one of the things that I would want my staff to look at very closely and evaluate. We would want to study the impact of some of these situations that have come up. I know we've had to look at some of them already. Some municipalities have farms in their areas where they're building- intensive and unable to tax the build­ ings. So, this is one of the things that the staff will be studying and looking at in relations to the recommen­ dations and hopefully that we can addr ess when a decision is made arising out of the recommendations, so to speak. MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chair man, I' ll paint a sce­ nario for the Minister so he can't keep on saying that the staff is going to study this because he's the politi­ cian and he's the Minister that's going to have to make recommendations. 2292 Let's assume a scenario where staff recommends that intensive livestock operations should be assessed and taxed. What would the Minister do with that recommendation? Would he say no; would he say yes? MR. ADAM: That's a hypothetical question, MR. ORCHARD: It's not hypothetical. MR. ADAM: The member is raising a hypothetical question.

We don't know whether the staff is not going to make recommendations of what should be taxed or what shouldn't be taxed. All they're going to say is what the impact would be if they were taxed or not taxed, that is what they're going to say. They're not going to advise the Minister on whether it should be taxed or not.

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 MR. ORCH ARD: Mr. Chairman, you see we get back to this problem of the Minister wanting to take a com­ mittee of ML As, I would assume, from both sides of the Ho use, out to the province to listen theoretically to observations based on the Weir Report and its recommen dations. Un less the farm community, or rural commun ity, has some idea of where this Minister believes the report should go, what are they going to come and tell you? What are they going to speak to? If I was a farmer com ing to that comm ittee of ML As, you know what I' d tell you?

I'd tell the comm ittee, don't tax anything land or building s. Then, what would you do with it? You'd hear from the farmers; you'd dialogue with them, as you say, but, what would you get from it because nobody wants to pay taxes. So, what would your travelling comm ittee of ML As tell you if every single farmer came in and said , don' t bother me with taxes? MR. ADAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, the memb er well knows that, sure, nobody wants to be taxed. The farmers are reasonable the same as anybody else. Nobody likes to pay taxes but taxed we are going to be whether we want to or not.

If we want services we're going to have to be taxed . I say that the outcome of these meetings will be productive. We will be able to get views once we have advised people what the implications are and, sure, we may have to make some decisions. You know, if you look at the report and it gives the headline that says "A fair way to share." I think the Memb er for Pembina is selling the farmers short. I think the farmers want to pay a fair share of their tax but they don' t want to be overtaxed; they want to pay a fair share.

If he's saying that is not the case he's not talking to the same farmers that I talk to because all farmers are prepared to pay a fair share of their tax but they don't want to be overtaxed. That is the job of this govern ment to see that they are not being abused, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCH ARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister says that farmers don't want to be overtaxed. Farmers today consider themselves to be overtaxed in terms of land. When you go to them with your ML A listening comm ittee, dialogue commit tee, call it what you will, are you going to present them with three scenarios and the costs?

Are you going to present them with the scenario of taxing land only, their land; are you going to present them with the second scenario of taxing bare land and the home; and the third scenario of taxing bare land and all buildi ngs and explain to them what would happen to a given model? Are you going to have that kind of information available as a presen­ tation to these groups? MR. ADAM: Yes, we hope to have that kind of information. MR. ORCHARD: Mr�-C hairman, 'hope to have' is not good enough.

What's the point of having that group of Ml.As go out and take time and spend a lot of money talking to rural Manitobans if you're not going to have that kind of information, if they don't have information on the im pact? I would say that's not a 'hope to have' that's a 'defin itely will have' or else there's no point to your travelling show. MR. ADAM: I don't consider, Mr. Chairman, that it's going to be a show; this is a very serious undertak ing. I think the members opposite are making light of this and I don't think it's a light issue, I think it's a very important and heavy issue that we're dealing with.

We will have the information. Certainly we're not going to go out there with nothing in our hands, we're going to have sufficient information there to, at least, advise the people what the implications are so that they can at least know what's happen ing. That's been my posi­ tion; we're not going out there just for a ju nket, I want to tell the honourable member that. I'm sure he doesn't want to be on that kind of a junk et and neither do I. We want to go out there to try and achieve something. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chair man, that is exactly why we've been posing these questions to the Minister.

Where does he stand on farm home taxation? Where does he stand on farm building taxation? Where does he stand on intensive livestock industry taxation that are outside of the normal family farm criterion? Because, unless the Minister has these kinds of posi­ tions in front of the rural commun ity to gather their advice for and against taking such a move he will have a travelling road show and not the kind of meaningful show that he says he wants to have and a kind of an information-gatheri ng group that can provide hime with some pretty positive recommendations.

That's why we're ask ing him tonight where he stands on a number of these very important issues that the farm com munity is ask ing each and every one of us right now. Un less they have an idea, as I say, of what you want or what you intend to do they're all going to come in and say don' t tax my home, don't tax my buildi ngs and lower the tax on my farm land because it's too high right now.

Un less the Minister sets up some criterion as to what he hopes to achieve out of the recommendations of the Weir Report, his group of ML As travelling about the province will gather the same kind of pro-and-con information and a nice

summary of opinion from 21 different sources and 21 different views as is con­ tained in the Weir Report and you won't have any more than you have right now unless you narrow it down and put up some targets. It takes some political guts to do that, Mr. Chairman, I must say, because nobody wants to hear maybe that their home is going to be taxed or their farm buildings are going to be taxed . But you're going to get opinion on it if you present them with that as an objective and give them the numbers of what it will cost them land only, land plus home, or land plus all building s.

That's why I would like the Minister, before he takes that group on the road, tell Manitobans what your thoug hts are, where you think it should go. After all, you are the Minister responsible and you have got a report with a number of recommendations to yo u, in order to resolve a very serious inequities in the assessment system in rural Manitoba. MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is why I' ve been saying all evening that we don't want to proced too quickly; we want to have all the information possible that we can obtain before going out to meet with people and we will be prepar ed when we do go out, to 2293

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 present several scenarios, several alternatives and situations that we have evaluated. That's what the staff will be doing between now and the time that we do go out, so that we can have a clear example of what really would happen if we recommend this recom­ mendation, or if we put in this recommen dation, or we don't put in that and so on. That is the whole purp ose of the exercise is to make sure that they understand what's happening but we have to understand it first.

And what I hear tonight is the member wants me to make a decision of what's going to happen next fall or whenever we go out. That is what the memb er is asking me to do; to make a decision tonight of the recommendation of that report. I want to tell him qu ite frankly that I'm not prepared to do that tonig ht. I'm not going to do it and neither would he if he was in my place. He'd be waiting until he got advice on what was happen ing and what these recommendations mean. I think the memb er just wants to prolong the debate.

He's not going to get anywhere because I'm not going to make any recommen dations that's in that report tonight and I'm not going to make any comments on that report until we know the implications of it, until we understand what's happening. Before I can under­ stand I have to have my staff evaluate what's in it and that's going to take a little while. I don't think the member would want me to - maybe he does, maybe he wants me to start making all kinds of statements about what I think, or what I believe, or what I feel. I can feel lots of things but that's not one of the things I feel. MR.

ORCHARD: I don't to hurt the Minister's feelings but when do you expect to take this ML A committee out to the public. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, when the staff has com­ pleted their evaluation and their study and have d6ne some pilot projects in certain areas, I supp ose, and maybe several areas to see what the outcome would be, and then we would want to choose a time when the people out in the rural areas have time to come to meetings.

We wouldn't want to go dur ing harvest, perhaps after harvest - I'm jus t taking a guess, I would say maybe October, November sometime; that would be a guesstimate, but I would say as a time frame that would probably ... I'm not sure whether staff would be able to comple te their studies between now and October but maybe that sounds reasonable but maybe I'm sticking the neck of my assessor out here. MR. ORCHARD: Then assumin g you could achieve that October - November time frame it would be your intention, I take it, to bring in appropriate legislation as required in the next Session. MR.

ADAM: That would depend on wha t the results of the hearings are, what the government decide s, that's a policy decision , of course, that govern ment will have to add ress once the hearings are completed and the committee has 01ade some recom menda­ tions. That's a policy matter that the government will have to decide on whether they should proceed or not proceed or take some of it and leave some. There may be many recommendations there that may well be accepted; maybe some may be rejected. That's some- thing that I just can't give a definite answer on. MR.

ORCHARD: So I take it then the Minister has no specific time frame to bring in any legislation then? MR. ADAM: Well, we don't want to be bound by this report, where the government is not bound by it. We are going to look at it very seriously and we will look at it once it's been studied thoroughly and discussed thoroughly and that people out there know what's happening, then we can make a decision on it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 4. (

a) Salaries. The Member for Swan River. MR. GOURL AY: Yes, earlier I think the Minister said there was 111 municipalities that are behind on their reassessments? MR. ADAM: Yes, plus several Northern communities as well. MR. GOURL AY: And the total number of municipali- 2294 ties I should know that but - it's 202? MR. ADAM: Yes. MR. GOURL AY: Then there's quite a large percen­ tage of the rural municipalities but there's no informa­ tion on them at this time with respect to information on buildings? MR. ADAM: Yes, that's correct. MR.

GOURLAY: I don't want to go over some of the ground that we already covered, but I think it's fair to point out to the Minister from wher e I sit, I think that a lot of the municipal people are getting a little bit edgy in that they don't want to see this report dragged on too long and, although, you may come up with a position as a result of staff advice, I don't think you need to feel that this is carved in stone.

But the munic­ ipal people have spent quite a bit of time already; they've brought forward recommendations, sugges­ tions to the Comm ittee and I think they're anxious to have further dialogue with the Minister and the Legis­ lative Commit tee, if that's the way he wants to go.

I would strongly urge that the Minister should be contacting the Municipal Advisory Commit tee which represents all of the municipal interests in the prov­ ince because there is, I would say, a fair amount of unrest in the municipalities with respect to the assessment inequities that we have today and the reason for establishing this review com mittee in the first place.

So it's fair to say, don't rush into this, but there is a certain amount of urgency to get on with this job and certainly, we in the Opp osition, want to co-operate with the government to come up with the best possi­ ble assessment program that we can possibly get. So I think we can't leave it too long and I would hope that the Minister would n't drag this thing on unduly with­ out, as I say, the position doesn't need to be carved in stone, but at least it's a position that can be used as a bench mark to finalize the recommendations that will be brought forth.

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 MR. ADAM: Yes, I really appr eciate the mem ber's commen ts, his offer of co-operation, I think that's a produc tive way to proceed. I want to inform him that I met recently with - I think it was last week - that I met with the Executive at UMM and we did discuss the report just in a preliminary way. I informed them of how we were going to proceed and there was no serious objec tion on the way we are intending to proceed. So I don't kn ow if the mem ber has any information that I don't have, but I've met with the Executive and we didn't get any negative reaction to our proposals.

I realize there's some anxiety out there to proceed as qui ckly as possible and we will certainly try and do that. We don' t intend to have any undue delay on the report. MR. GOU RLAY: Mr. Chairman, I keep referring to the rural part of the province and I guess that's only natu­ ral. But I believe it's fair to say too, that the city is quite anxious to get something moving on this so that the assessment recommenda tions can be finalized as soon as possible. I don' t think I have anything further on this part of it unless anyone else has. MR. DEPU TY CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Pembina. MR. OR CHARD: Mr.

Chairman, just one quick ques­ tion to the Minister. Has the Minister received any communication about a little fracas that developed in Stanley Council about a month ago on relieving taxa­ tion of farm homes where the Reeve was involved in it? MR. ADAM: I don' t believe I have unless the memb er could be more specific. There has been no communi­ cation to my knowledge. MR. DEPU TY CHAIR MAN: Item 4.(

a) Salaries-pass; Item 4.(

b) Other Expenditures-pass. The Memb er for Swan River. MR. GOURL AY: If we could just have a brief outline of what is included in the Other Expenditures. MR. ADAM: It's mainly travelling and associated costs. MR. GO URLAY: Is there any comp uterization costs in this area or is it included in the . MR. ADAM: Yes, there would be. Mr. Chairman, there is $428,000 for machine utilization and I think that's what the member is referring to. MR. GOURL AY: $400,000.00? MR. ADAM: $428,000.00. MR. DE PU TY CHAIRMAN: It em 4.(

b) Other Expenditures-pass. THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4, 14 5,500 for Municipal Affairs, Municipal Assessments for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 83-pass. Item 5. Municipal Services and Research, 5.(

a) Salaries. The Member for Swan River. MR. GOU RLAY: Is there any change with respect to the program to Local Gove rnment Districts, like to cost-sharing on road building, maintenance and the like? MR. ADAM: No, Mr. Chair man. MR. GOURL AY: What is the current situation with respect to the LGD of Park and I believe it's the Rural Mun icipality of Shell River, is it? Was there part of the LGD of Park amalgama ted recently or is that still not settled? MR. ADAM: There's no chang e yet. It hasn't been no change in that area. MR.

GOURL AY: Is there any discussions going on at the present time with respect to that amalgama tion or is it sort of a dead issue right now? MR. ADAM: There's no discussions, I think , taki ng place at the present time. MR. GOURL AY: Is there any change in the admi nis­ tration of the Resident Ho meowner Tax Assistance? Is that still the same as it was? MR. ADAM: Yes. MR. GOURL AY: I didn't catch the answer. 2295 MR. ADAM: There's no change. MR. GOURL AY: I don't have anything further on that. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRM AN: 5. (

a) Salaries-pass. The Member for Swan River. MR. GOURL AY: I wonder if the Minister could just briefly tell us what is included in the Other Expendi­ tures and the reason for the increase - it's up some $70,000.00? MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, that's mainly for compu­ terization. I wond er, Mr. Chairman, are you asking for a complete breakdown? MR. GOURL AY: Well, I was just wondering, there's a $70,000 increase which seems that something sign ifi­ cant has changed there. MR. ADAM: The increase, Mr. Chairman, is made up of several items.

The major ones would be, again, computer and machine utilization, travelling costs. It costs more to travel nowadays and there's an increase there. The rest is all minor changes. The two major ones are machine utilization and computer and travel­ ling. Those are the three majors. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 5. (

b) Other Expenditures­ pass. RESOLVED THAT there be granted to Her Majesty

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 a sum not exceeding $1 .048,600 for Municipal Affairs, Municipal Services and Research for the fiscal year ending the 31s t Day of March. 19 83-pass. Item 6. Municipal Planning Services. (

a) Salaries. The Member for Swan River. MR. GOURL AY: Yes. I wonder if the Minister can tell us what the present status is with respect to Planning Districts. How many are there and are there new di s­ tricts being planned. or anticipated being organized in the coming year? MR. ADAM: There are 13 at the present time - Plan­ ning Districts - which compr ise 43 municipalities involved. There are three new requests to farm Plan­ ning Districts at the present time. MR. GOU RLAY: I wonder if the Minister could tell us where tho se req uests are from? In volvi ng wha t municipalities? MR.

ADAM: The new ones are the LGD of Alexander and the Village of Powerview and the RM of Lac du Bon net and the Village of Lac du Bon net, the Town of Deloraine and the RM of Winchester. MR. GOURL AY: There were some legal undertaking s with the Morden-Stan ley-Winkler Planning District and I believe recently the government provided some further assistance to some legal costs. Is this true? MR. ADAM: Yes. there were. MR. GOURL AY: How much did that amount to? MR. ADAM: $21 .000, Mr. Chairman. MR. GOU RLAY: Was this a cost-sharing arrange­ ment with the Planning District? MR. ADAM: Yes. Mr. Chairman. MR.

GOU RLAY: What was the outcome of that case there? Could the Minister briefly tell us how the Plan­ ning District came out on that case? MR. ADAM: Yes. there was a court case involved and an interim decision was made to development control order - I'm just getting the information now on how that went about. There was an interim development control order and it was defeated in the courts. That is why there was some extra assistance provided for the court costs. I presume. MR. GOU RLAY: Was there not a subsequent court case or legal costs involved? I'm wondering what was the result of that. MR.

ADAM: I' m advised that there was ariother court case and that was thrown out again. MR. GOU RLAY: Where does that sit at the present time? Is it sort of resolved or is it just sort of . MR. ADAM: Yes, it has been resolved now. MR. GOURL AY: Everthing seems to be working satisfactorily at the present time there? MR. ADAM: Yes. Mr. Chairman. MR. DE PU TY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. CHARLO TTE OLESON (G ladstone): I'm just wondering under Salaries (a) , would this include the planning personnel for instance?

Has there been an increase in the planning personnel in Brandon to do with the planning services? MR. ADAM: There has been an increase in the plan­ ning in Brandon. Yes. MRS. OLESON: So, what does that make their total staff? MR. ADAM: There is 11 staff there, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Memberf or Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, has the Minister met with the Reeve of the RM of Stanley on the MSTW Planning District? MR. ADAM: Yes, we have. 2296 MR. ORCHARD: Were you able to allay some of his fears and concerns about the planning district in your eloquent and persuasive normal manner. MR. ADAM: Yes.

MR. ORCHARD: Why is it that the Reeve still wants to take Stanley out of the planning district then, did you advise him to do that? MR. ADAM: I don't recall all the discussions at the moment I' d have to go back and review the Minutes of the meeting. I have dealt with a number of municipali­ ties and I don't recall all the problems that were brought to me at the time, I'd have to get briefed again on it. MR. ORCHARD: Could the Minister make available the Minutes of the meeting he had with the Reeve and we could help him solve the problem? MR.

ADAM: They were just scribbled somewhere and they're not very, very co-ordinated Minutes. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , I can assure the Min­ ister that wouldn't bother myself, I would make the best possible use of those Minutes in assisting him if he would make them available. MR. ADAM: I don't think I would, there's nothing that the memb er would be interested in. I'm not sure whether there are Minutes anyway there was just maybe some MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman. this does not sound like that open government we were promised.

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 MR. ADAM: I can make some up if he wants. MR. ORC HARD: Mr. Chairman, that's part of the concern that the mem bers in the opp osition have that this Min ister is making things up already and we want to attemp t to help him avoid the many pitfalls of doing that. If the Minister has had any discussions at all with his Deput y he will be aware of some, shall I call them, unique circumstances with MSTW and its composite members and some of the problems perceived in real that are there and organ ized in that planning district.

My colleague the ML A for Swan River, and the former Minister, was aware of certain court actions that accompan ied the establishment of MSTW and I guess since the Minister, either cannot or will not, provide any Minutes of the meeti ng he had with the Reeve of Stanley, can I simply ask the Minister if he recom­ mende d to the Reeve of the R.M. of Stanley that, by all means, they should stay in the planning district, or did he indicate that they should pull out? MR. ADAM: I think they should stay in, Mr.

Chairman, I'm certainly encouraging all municipalities to try and form planning districts and I would certainly encour­ age them to stay. MR. ORCHARD: Did the Minister, in the course of discussions with the Reeve of Stanley, point out to him what sort of options were available and what sort of procedu res would follow should the R.M. of Stan­ ley not be part of the MSTW planning district. MR. ADAM: I believe we did. MR. OR CHARD: Would it be a fair question to ask how that information was received by the Reeve? MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, I can't rememb er all the details of the meetings we held with them but I know that the meetings that I've had, up to this point in time, with many of the groups, including that group, were very good meetings and they received information from us and they have brought their concerns to our attention. I don' t recall all the details of the situation, I'd have to look at the information again to find out what MR. OR CHARD: Would the Minister entertain appli­ cations by municipalities to form a single municipality planning district? MR.

ADAM: No, not at this time, we try to encourage them to form a district with a neighb ouring local governme nt. MR. ORCH ARD: By "not at this time" is the Minister contempl ating changing that? MR. ADAM: That's something that we may look at in the future but at this point in time, no. MR. ORC HAR D: That's all the questions I have right now, Mr. Chairman. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRM AN: Item 6.(

a) Salaries pass; item 6.(

b) Other Expen ditures -pass. RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,390,800 for Municipal Affairs - Municipal Planning Services for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 83-pass. Item No. 7. Provincial Planning, 7.(

a) Salaries. The Member for Swan River. MR. GO URLAY: I wonder if the Minister could indi­ cate how many applic ations were received for subdi­ visions and how many were subsequently approved during the past year. MR. ADAM: We have received 1, 347, Mr. Chairman, and there were 961 app roved. There were 13 5 that were rejected by the council; there 19 that were rejected by the Minister and there were 7 that were rejected by the Municipal Board . MR. GOU RLAY: I think that's it for now. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister indicate what the role will be of the Inter-Departmental Planning Board and the Provincial Land Use Comm it­ tee of Cabinet as the province relates to the review of the Greater Winnip eg De velopment Plan and Plan Winnip eg. I would understand that plan would still go through this process of the Inter-Departmental Plan­ ning Board and the Provincial Land Use of Cabi net, it wouldn't be the function of the new Ur ban Affairs Department to look after that, would it? MR. ADAM: The IPB would report to the UACC and then it would go to Cabinet. MR. MERCIER: Has that process started now? MR.

ADAM: Yes. MR. MERCIER: How long does the Minister estimate that process to take before the province will take a position? MR. ADAM: We have taken a position all along, I'm advised by staff. 2297 MR. MERCIER: Has the Minister written to the city on that issue? MR. ADAM: We have written to the city, yes. MR. MERCIER: Would the Minister undertake to pro­ vide me with a copy of that correspond ence? MR. ADAM: Yes. MR. MERCIER: Thank you very much. MR. ADAM: You're welcome. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 7.(

a) Salaries. The Member for Pem bina. MR. ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, is this the appr opriate place to discuss the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee?

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 MR. ADAM: The Minister of Agricu lture is the Chair­ man of that Comm ittee. MR. ORCHARD: Are you a member of that Comm it­ tee, Mr. Minister? MR. ADAM: Yes. MR. ORCHARD: I take it, from reading the

Preamble under Provincial Planning, that the Pro vincial Land Use Comm ittee is part of this Minister's funding responsibilities? MR. ADAM: Yes, part of my responsibil ity is being a member of the PLUC Commit tee. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I suspect the PLUC Comm ittee is wrestling with the sale of Crown land policy; would that be a fair assumption? MR. ADAM: We have discussed it, Mr. Chairman, but we haven't dealt with it. MR. ORCHARD: When do you expect to deal with it, Mr. Chairman? MR. ADAM: We will be dealing with it in about two weeks, as soon as it comes up. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Has the Minister had an oppor tunity to review the very tho­ rough screening process that all appl ications for sale of Crown lands went through, the guidelines, the pol­ icy framework, that the Provincial Land Use Comm it­ tee was given to deal with the whole issue of sale of Crown lands. Ha s the Minister had an oppor tunity to review that process and the way it was operating and the parameters under which it was operating un'der our administration? MR. ADAM: We have reviewed it, yes. It's the respon­ sibility of the Department of Natural Resources. MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, that's only partially correct because the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee did have all of the workings of recommending for sale and declining for sale and referring to the Cabine t Comm ittee, the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee, of sales of Crown land and it was through the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee that the recommendations were collated between the various departments as to whether a given piece of Crown land should or should not be sold for agricultural purposes.

That process I happen to have had some responsibility for, as Chairman of the PLUC Commit tee for a couple of years, and in my estimation, and I'm not trying to take credit for anything I did because it was the committee mem bers that were of great assistance in developing that framework, but I am of the opinion that we had every potential pitfall covered in the review process and in the recommend ation process and the guid e­ lines that the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee had to deal with in assessing the saleability of Crown land.

I would merely ask the Minister if he, in reviewing that framework, that set of policies, that operation, is he satisfied that the process was a good one? MR. ADAM: Mr. Ch airman, the Crown lands question is under study at the present time and it will be add ressed very, very shortly. I can inform the honour­ able member that some of the problems that did come up on the previous policy had to do with the sale of LGD lands; that there were some problems with the policy change last October, I believe. MR. ORCHARD: Could the Minister be a little more specific on that one? MR.

ADAM: Yes, the LGD lands, the policy was changed so that the unencumb ered LGD lands would be tendered rather than sold at appraised value and, apparently has created some problems for some of the Local Government Districts. MR. ORCHARD: Okay, that's one area but that isn't the Crown lands sales policy that I'm talking about here. Although it's under review, and the Minister indicates he's about to make a decision or it's about to go to PLUC Comm ittee in a couple of weeks time, the Minister must have reviewed the guidelines, is he sat­ isfied that those guidelines were good enough to undertake Crown land sales?

Were there any glaring errors, in his opinion, in the guidelines that were de­ veloped over the last couple or three years? MR. ADAM: We are going to study that policy that had been undertaken by the prev ious administration. We're reviewing that and at this point in time I can't advise the memb er whether there's going to be any changes. We have held in abeyance any new appl ica­ tions until the review is comple ted but that doesn't necessarily mean that Crown lands won't be sold in the future. We are reviewing the policy, Mr.

Chairman, to see if there were any inequities in the program, to review the entire question of Crown lands. MR. ORC HARD: Mr. Chairman, there are no new applications being received. There were a number of appl ications that were in the process.

Have any of those applic ations been furthered since the 17 th of November, and any parcels of land recommende d for sale of that group in which the applications were already in the mill and coming to the Minister and to the PLUC Comm ittee for approval to sell, have any of those been approved for sale since November 17 th, of the old applications prior to November 17 th? 2298 MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, if I understand correctly, the member said that any appl ication that was received after the 17 th? MR.

ORCH ARD: The Minister indicated that there have been no new appl ications received because, boom, you've shut 'em down. MR. ADAM: No. MR. ORCHARD: Okay, then the Minister can correct that because I think that's what he said. MR. ADAM: No, there were appl ications received but, as of December 9th, when the decision was made to hold processing any further applic ations, all appl ica-

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 tions prior to that which were in the mill were to be processed , is my understanding. But any new appli­ cations after December 9 would be held in abeyance until the review was comple ted. MR. ORCHARD: Of the appl ications that were received up to December 9, have any of those applica­ tions received a recommenda tion for sale and have those lands been sold? MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, all the applic ations that had been received prior to December 9 are being processed and I don't know at what stage they are, there are different stages.

There may be some that would be coming to PLUC, as the memb er mentioned awhile ago, those that have been rejected by depa rt­ ments for one reason or another . Some of those may be coming to PLUC but all those applications that had been in the process, they are still proceedi ng but they may be at various levels in the process of transfer or whatever. MR. ORCH ARD: Then, do I take it from the Minister's answer, that since Decemb er 9 there has not been any Crown lands sold on appl ications that were made prior to Dece mber 9, some as long ago as July, 19 81. MR. ADAM: No, that is not correct.

All those applica­ tions that were received prior to December 9 are being proceeded with. MR. ORC HARD: If the Minister doesn't have it tonight would he provide me with information as to parcels of land, Crown lands that have been sold since December 9 on applic ations we received prior to December 9. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, there would be Orders -in­ Councils. We deal with them every week, there are some going through. That information is public and all the mem ber has to do is go down to wherever the records are kept. But, Mr.

Chairman, just on a point of order, we are dealing with the Department of Natural Resources here in dealing with this question. But if the mem ber wants to talk about the Provincial Land Use Comm it­ tee wh ich deals with those Crown lands that have been rejected by one of the departments, that's an issue that I can deal as a memb er of the PLUC Com­ mittee, but when we get into a wide-r anging discus­ sion of how many lands have been processed, how many parcels and so on, well you're really dealing with the Department of Natural Resources then. MR.

ORCH ARD: Could the Minister then provide me with a breakdown - I know the PLUC Com mittee always had the chart set up of total applications, number rejected, number appr oved, number requir­ ing Ministerial decision at the PLUC Comm ittee level could the Minister provide me with the latest status quo on those appli cations received prior to December 9? MR. ADAM: Yes. I believe then, Mr. Chairman, that we would be able to provide the mem ber with that up until December 9. MR. ORC HARD: That won't do because I've seen the one up to December 9.

I would like to see the latest one which deals with applic ations received up until Dece mber 9. I hope the Min ister isn't shutting me off at December 9. MR. ADAM: No, no. There will be some lands that probably have been processed after December 9, that's what the mem ber means. That's correct, that's okay. MR. ORC HARD: Very good , then. One final question, does the Minister support the sale of agricultural Crown land to leaseholders? MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, we're looking at that. There could be some merit and we'll be reviewing that and making a decision within two or three weeks, I presume. MR.

DE PUTY CH AIRM AN: The Honour able Attorney-General. HON. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Yes, this was just in reference to the Honour able Member for Pem­ bina's previous question. The Minister is right. These matters come up under Natural Resources. With respect to the sale of Crown land, every week there is 3, 4, 5, or 6 of them and they go through by way of O.C. and they're a matter of public record. MR. GOU RLAY: The Minister made reference to pol­ icy problems with respect to LGD lands.

We passed that area where we should have discussed that but I wonder if the Minister would mind just relating whether or not he plans on changing those policy recommen­ dations with respect to LGD lands or has he changed the policy that was brought in, I think , September, October of 19 81. MR. ADAM: We are reviewing that at the present time. MR. GOUR LAY: No changes have been made to date, then? MR. ADAM: No, the problems are just being brought to our attention now and we're taki ng a look at it. MR. GOU RLAY: What are the main problems that have been brought to your attention, Mr . Minister?

You mentioned one area. Are there other areas? MR. ADAM: One of the complai nts that have been brought to our attention about the policy was the interest rates; that the municipalities would have to charge 1 percent above prime which in some areas has stopped all sale of LGD land. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: Item 7.(

a) Salaries-pass; 7.(

b) Other Expenditu res-pass. RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $298,300 for Municipal Affairs, Provincial Planning for the fiscal year ending the 31 day of March, 19 83-pass. 2299 Item 8. Canada-Man itoba Northern Developm ent Agreement. There is no particular expen ditures in

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 here. I would like to ask the direction of the Comm it­ tee in dealing with this. This might be an opportunity for some comments if they wish, Mr. Minister. Mr. Minister, do you want to make some comments on that? MR. ADAM : The information that we have here, Mr. Chairman, is that Northern Planning is included as Canada-Manitoba Northern Development Agreement. No funds are shown since the Northland Program is all included in the Canada-Man itoba Enabling Vote, page 11 4, and the total Northern Planning Branch is $201 ,900, that's all we have on that.

It will be shown in the Enabling Vote, Mr. Chairman. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRM AN: Are there any further comments on Item 8? Okay, let's go then to the Minis­ ter's Salary. Item 1. (a) -pass. The Member for Swan River. MR. GOURL AY: I just have a brief comment to make. Earlier we discussed the Main Street Manitoba Pro­ gram and the Minister has assured us that this will be app roved through Cabi net next week and that he will be announcing further information in the House when that is cleared through Cabinet. I would just like to say that we're looking forward to hearing further details on that program.

I think that we on this side agree with the concept, and I would think that there'll be a number of appl ications received from various parts of the province to take advantage of that Main Street Program. Also, with respect to the Assessment Review Com­ mittee's recommenda tions, I think we had a fairly good discussion with respect to that report.

I would again urge the Minister to have some consultation with the Minister of Ur ban Affairs and the Municipal Advisory Comm ittee with respect to proceeding with the recommendations, and trying to get the assess­ ment recommenda tions resolved as quickly as possi­ ble but, not without a good consultation and dialogue with the municipal people. MR. ADAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the Member for Swan River who is the critic for Municipal Affairs for his co-operation. I want to also thank my staff for the supp ort that they have given me.

They have been very helpful, I'm sure as they are to most Ministers. We will certainly try and proceed as soon as possible with the recommend ations and deal with them at least and also the Main Street Program will be dealt with as soon as possible. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRM AN: Item 1 (

a) Min ister's Salary-pass. Resolution 94. RESOLVED THAT there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2,475, 10 0 for Municipal Affairs, Gener al Admin istration for the fis­ cal year ending the 31s t Day of March 19 83-pass. That comple tes the Estimates for the Department of Municipal Affairs. Comm ittee rise SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRM AN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): This Comm ittee will come to order. We are continuing with the Ed ucation Estimates. Item 1. Departmental Admi­ nistrative Support Services, specifically, Item l.( e)

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Mem ber for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Mr. Chairman, I think when we left off I was just ask ing the Minister about where we ought to cover a number of topics. She indicated that it should be later down the road some­ where but I don't know if she gave me a response as to just where. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. HON. MAUREEN HEMPHILL (Logan): Mr. Chairman, since there isn't any specific

section to cover those points, I sugge st that the Member for Tuxedo cover them wherever he think s it's most appr opriate. MR. FILMON: However often he think s is appr op­ riate? Mr. Chairman, with respect to Teacher Certifi­ cation, I wonder if the Minister could indicate the number of teachers emp loyed, their classifications and average salaries in the province. MR S. HEMPH ILL: Mr. Chairman, the information that the memb er is requesting we're quite happ y to provide. It's fairly extensive and we will have to pro­ vide that for him. Do you want a summ ary of the numbers of teachers under the different classifica­ tions, sort of a general

summary of teachers and their classifications? 2300 MR. CHAIRM AN: l.(e )(1) -pass. The Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Could the Min ister ind icate, Mr. Chairman, what the numbers of teachers are in train­ ing at the various institutions that have teacher educa­ tion programs in the province and perhaps the number that are expected to graduate this year? HON. MAUREEN HEMPHILL (Logan): Mr. Chairman, the number of teachers being trained in the different institutions, I'll read the following: University of Manitoba, 351; Winnip eg, 11 O; St.

Bon iface, 28; Bran­ don, regular and music, 10 1; Brandon, the PENT Pro­ gram, 3; Brandon, BU NTEP, 19; Red River Com mun­ ity College, Vocational Ind ustrial, 10 ; Red River Comm unity College, Industrial Arts, 18 ; Red River Commun ity College, Busine ss Educ ation, 12 , for a total of 652. MR. FILM ON: How many are expected to be graduat­ ing this year, Mr. Chairman, or was that the numbers? That was the number expected to graduate, I see. So, since many of these programs are several years in duration the enrolment is obviously considerably highe r.

The Minister can indicate if there is a figure on total enrolment without break ing it down amongs t institutions. I wonder if the Minister can indicate whether there is a reasonable expectation that there will be jobs for these 652 who are graduating this year. MRS. HEMPH ILL: We have the figu res for last year,

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 Mr. Chairman; 72 percent of them were emp loyed from those who graduated last year. MR. FILMON: Emplo yed in Manitoba or 72 percent were emplo yed, in total, in teaching? MRS. HE MPHI LL: 72 percent were emplo yed in teaching. Some left the province and some would have gone into emp loyment in other areas, not directly into teaching; 72 percent is the number that were emp loyed directly in their graduate positions. MR. FILMON: Can the Minister indicate whether or not there is a reasonable expectation that this year's graduates will all be employed or what percentage.

The 72 percent, was there a comparable number? Was last year's number 650 appr oximately or were there more trained last year or less? MRS. HEMP HILL: The number of graduates have been fairly stable in the last few years. The expecta­ tions are that the em ployment opportunities wil I be as good as they were last year for this year's graduates. We don't have the exact figures. MR.

FILM ON: In view of the fact that there appear to be because of declining enrolme nts, fewer total numbers of teachers are going to be emp loyed cer­ tainly from some of the newspaper accounts of boards form ing their budgets this coming year. There appear to be slight declines in various different div­ isions. Does the Minister then expect that more of them will be going outside the province to seek employment? MRS. HEMP HILL: Mr. Chairman, I do not expect at this point that more will be going outside, more will be leaving the province to find employment.

The declin­ ing enrolment is still a factor but the previous two years, '78, '79, '80 were the worst years, were the peak years of the decli ne. It is not as bad this year; it is beginning to stabilize. We have, I believe done a better job of identifying or we are improving our ability per­ haps might be a better way to say it, our ability to indicate where the needs are. While the overall needs for teachers may be held in a stable position because of the student popu lation, there are certain categories and certain programs and courses where the needs are very high.

We are not yet in all cases even able to meet our own requireme nts in this province, so that perhaps larger numbers of them are being approp­ riately counselled and guided into these areas such as the Specia·I Need category. MR. FILMON: I wonder if the Minister could indicate what are the Special Needs categories where there are oppor tunities and positions that are being left unfilled, then. MR S.

HEMP HI LL: Probably the greatest difficulty that we would be having now is, it's not unlike many other fields or professional areas where they have difficulty getting highly skilled, special ized people in the more rural and remote areas where they still have children who need those services but they do not have people in their community or are not able to attract people to those positions. That would be one of the areas, I think, that would be obvious.

I think it's fair to say too, that when you bring in a progr am or expand a program such as was done by the previous govern ment, where you expanded con­ siderably in a short period of time in that one year, it does take awhile for the system to catch up. In other words, just because you decide to do something and appr ove a program doesn't mean that the people and the programs are there overnight. It takes time to identify them; to hire them; to develop the programs in the first place in the school divisions.

I think that school divisions are moving in that direction and developing the programs and hiring the people as they have them in place. MR. FILMON: What's the nature of these programs that the Minister is referring to? MRS. HEMP HI LL: Perhaps one way of identifying the programs would be to talk about the personnel that are providing the programs. In the Special Needs area we have clinicians; spe­ cial needs co-ordinators: we have psychologists; we have social workers.

These are now people wher e the school division can develop programs for their child­ ren, apply and get support for that personnel for those special people. 2301 MR. FILMON: So we are referring specifically there to children with special needs, whether they be learn­ ing disabilities or so on.

I was wonderi ng, more par­ ticularly, about having qualified staff perhaps to teach in areas such as vocational industrial education and that sort of thing; whether that is an area of greater or lesser need than gener al specialists; whether or not there are greater or lesser needs for people to teach in immersion programs, whether they be French , Ger­ man, Ukrainian, all of which are available now throughout various divisions and so on? I wasn't only referring to the Le arning Disabled or Special Needs Childr en. MRS. HEMPHILL : Mr.

Chairman, we do have increas­ ing needs in a number of areas and some of the ones were the ones the Member for Tuxedo identified. There is an increasing need in the vocational training programs and we have and are increasing the numbers of people that are being taken into those programs who will be trained.

Another example, I suppose, would be the child care services where we kn ow there is going to be an expansion in that program and we have doubled the capacity of Red River Com munity College in this budget year to begin to meet that particular increase need, recognizing that it will not all be done in this budget year and that there will have to be further expansion again. One of the studies that the research branch under­ took, I think it was last year, that I found quite interest­ ing, was a study on teacher placement, Mr. Chairman.

And while I don't have the exact results here, in gen­ eral, I can say that they identified one of our problems as not necessarily having the numbers of teachers or the ki nds of teachers that we needed, but the inap­ prop riate or, if I might use, the allocation of those

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 personnel resources in the schools. One of the areas that was clearly identified was the ability to teach in the core or the immersion programs where there were teachers who had academic backgr ound and training to handle some programs, but who had been time­ tabled or booked into other courses. So, perhaps where we have deficiencie s one of the things we will have to look at more seriously is not just retraining, or improving or increasing the training, but the redeployment or use of the teaching staff that we have presently. MR.

FILMON: I think that not only in teaching but in any form of education there is a difficulty in matching student choices with the needs that are out there in the emplo yment field for which they are training and that has not only to do with education but it has to with virtually every trade, occupation, career that there is training available for in the various institutions throughout our province and any other province. I think that has always been a problem.

I think over the years as a result of gu idance and counseling and career information oppor tunities that have been improved and enhanced with the school system, that we started more to marry the needs with the opportun­ ities and the people coming in one end, coming closer to matching the people required at the other end. What I'm wonder ing is, what specific ally the Minis­ ter feels could be done to improve that even more so if she has identified, as she has for me, that there are still areas in which the needs exceed the numbers who are graduating,

whereas there appear to be 28 percent of the graduates who are not finding employment in the field for which they're trained, i.e. teaching. So what does she ieel can be done to improve that situation? MRS. HEMPHIL L: Mr. Chairman, I think this is a very important question and one that doesn't have just one simple answer but that we're going to have to attack from a number of different ways. We have recognized it and, I think , some work has been done before and we will be continuing it.

Certainly in the area of counseling for stude nts and the career develop ment programs, I think there has been a lot of work done in the past. We have done a special two-day career symposi um where students by the hundreds were brought in from all over the pro­ vince. On e of the things we must do is make them aware of the exp anding fields. new jobs, new technol­ ogies and new op portunities so they're not thinking that everybody is going to grow up to be a nurse or a doctor or the jobs in the field that everybody knows about.

It's also important I think, that we work closely with the Deans and people in the universities and in the colleges, that there be a continuing examination of the areas in the fields that are declining and where there isn't a high job requirement ; as much informa­ tion as we can get about the fields of the future; the places where there is most likely to be job opportuni­ ties and security; and to do the best job that we can to, if not to push students, but to inform them, give them as much information as possible so that they're mak­ ing good choices. MR.

FILM ON: Although I was giving an example of all occupations I'm more particularly concerned under these Estimates that we are training sufficient numbers of teachers which obviously we are but perhaps not in the right field. So to avoid the disappoi ntment, dis­ couragement, that occurs when considerable numbers of people who have trained, in some cases, 2, 3, 4 years beyond general, in some cases, with second deg ress and other thing s, find that ther e isn't emp loyment , to try and avoid that and I know it's not possible to avoid it entirely.

I guess I just want some assurance that this is an ongoing concern and priority of the department, to better marry the input-output into the teaching profession. MRS. HEMP HILL: Mr. Chairman, I mentioned that there was close liaison and discussion between the Department of Ed ucation, faculties and school divi­ sions to improve our information distribution to stu­ dents in this way.

One of the improvements has been that faculties survey school divisions and they determi ne, they ask them what their needs are going to be and it gives them some idea of where the major requirements are and that affects the numbers that they take in to the different courses and different programs. So to that extent, they are attempting to meet the needs in the field. MR.

FILMON: We're aware of many more teachers leaving the profession, not just to enter political life as some of our colleagues in the Ch amber have in recent years, but to change professions or careers in mid­ stream and go into a variety of different opportu nities.

We hear a lot of talk about teacher burnout at young ages at least young from my perspective - and I'm just wondering if this is causing concerns with respect to being able to have sufficient numbers of good, well qualified teachers attracted to the profession for the future and whether or not this is part of the overall Manpower planning, person-power planning, that we have undergo ing in the education field as well. 2302 MRS.

HEMPHILL: The Member for Tuxedo has iden­ tified an area that is of great concern to everybody and that I have discussed at considerable length, both with the Teachers' Society, the trustees and with the many teacher groups that I have spoken to in the last five months. Unfortunately, the burnout is not an indication of lack of effort. It's an indication, often, of a tremen dous amount of effort by tremendously good pe ople and what is happ ening is that we are often losing some of the most ded icated, hardest work ing teachers in the profession. The reasons, we know.

I'm not sure the solutions are as clear but we have begun to talk about them which I think is, at least, a step in the right direction. One of the big reasons that I find, when I say it the teachers tell me that I am right, is not just the amount of work they're doing, not just the tremendous increased pressures in their job and the tremendously increasing deman ds, because now teachers are being asked, not just to teach, but they're being asked to be parents, they're being asked to be social workers, they're being asked to do and fill many of the holes that are caused by the unstable society that we have

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 today, but they are not getting much credit and recog nition for the work that they are doing. In other words, they feel that they are under a great deal of pressure, stress and demands to continue doing their old job, which is teaching kids basics, reading and writi ng and arithmetic, to continue tak ing on all these new jobs, this tremendously expanding role and pres­ sures and with very little recognition, that they're doing it well.

Sometime s I think the hardest thing is not hard work and press ure but lack of credit and recognition for it, so I have begun to speak out publicly about the stress and pressures on teachers, about the increased demand s, and being very supp ortive to them for the job that they are doing. We also are going to have to talk to them and look at the school system and decide what we can reasona­ bly expect our teachers to do and to continue doing, to fill these holes.

So hopefully, if we raise the issue publicly and we will begin to recog nize the work that is being done by the teachers of the province and the pressure and strains that they are under and do what­ ever we can to release those pressures so that we're not losing the valuable resource that we have spent so much time creating. MR. FILMON: Some of the teachers with whom I speak and of whom I' ve heard, I think are also leaving for lack of challenge or interest.

Is there something the Min ister feels pertains to the system that fails to keep them motivated, challeng ed , interested in carry­ ing on with their profession, looking to change for other careers, more for goal orientation and the chal­ lenges that they provide? MRS . HEMPHIL L: Yes, I do think that is a problem and it's one that I usually mention when I'm talking about the problem, except I'm trying to not expand my answers to take in everything that I' ve ever thought of about the different issues.

I do not think that teachers have a lot of oppor tunity to be creative or to do things in their school class­ rooms to develop and design them. I think some of the programs that we will be lookin g at and some of the ways we will be looki ng at doing them, will be to involve teachers more in the field with what is going to happen and with what is happen ing in the classroom. I'm thinking in a number of ways, particularly of cur­ riculum development where we'll get into this later - we do a very good job of planning the curriculum and developing it.

I think we fall down when it comes to imp lementation in the field and with work ing and having the teachers help design and help develop it. I think if they could initiate and create and develop perhaps a little bit more, that we all need to expand and change what we do to keep our interests up and teachers aren't any different. So, I think we do have to look for ways to allow them and give them those oppor tunities so we don't both exhaust them and bore them. We don't want to do either one. MR.

FILMON: I guess that the Minister will be on the horns of a dilemma because I thought I heard some comments either from her or from others at the Mani­ toba Teachers' Society Annual Meeting about too many changes and too rapid change s and the frustra- tions of trying to implement new curricula and so on.

So, I guess the Minister will have to weigh the benefits and the consequences of the challenges that she and I' m sure many, myself included, would like to see as part of the teaching profession along with the resist­ ance to change that's natural in people in all profes­ sions and all fields and that sometimes manifests itself in frustrations that they have in dealing with the changes. The Minister - and I should have referred to this earlier - said that one of the areas of growing need in instruction was in child care, at least I think that was the reference she made.

I wondered if she was refer­ ring to the training of instructors for early childhood education or day-care workers or if this is a different initiative. MRS. HEMPHILL: I was referring to the expansion in the field of day care. Perhap s we could get into dis­ cussions of that program under the Com munity Colleges. MR. FILMON: I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether she believes that the Teacher Certification function as part of her department is properly vested in the Depar tment of Ed ucation and if this should be a conti nuing resp onsibili ty of the Department of Ed ucation. MRS.

HEMPHI LL: The structure in the system that we have in place in Manitoba presently is one that is used across Canada and, in fact, in North America. The Departments of Ed ucation do have the responsi­ bility for Teacher Certification. MR. FILM ON: Mr. Chairman, does that mean that she disagrees with the position that I believe is put for­ ward by the Manitoba Teachers' Society that the teachers under a professional act should be respon­ sible for certification rather than the Department of Education? 2303 MRS. HE MPHI LL: Mr.

Chairman, it's my understand­ ing that the Teachers' Society is talking more about being involved in the classification area and not the certification; that would still remain the function with the Department of Educ ation and that they would become involved; this is their wish to become involved in the classification of teachers. MR. FILMON: But the certification aspect, the Minis­ ter believes, should continue to be the prerogative of the Department of Education? MRS.

HEMPHIL L: The question of the role and func­ tion of the certification branch is not something that I have either looked at or given tremendous consid era­ tion to. So, I suppose I can say that at this point, the roles of the departments as they exist presently will continue to exist that way until we have time to review whether we think that is a reasonable role and func­ tion for them. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister then saying that she doesn't necessarily belie ve that cer tif ication should be the pr erogativ e of the

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 Department of Education? MRS. HEMPHI LL: Mr. Chairman, I think that what I am saying is that I am happy with it at the present time and unless I review it and consider it and find some reason to not be as happy with it as I am now, there will be no change. MR. FILMON: Has the Minister had an opportu nity to since I think we maybe touched on some aspects of the issue in the last few minutes -- has the Minister had an oppor tunity to review the 20-20 proposal of the Manitoba Teachers' Society and is she in a position to give us any of her opinions on it at the moment? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, I have not been in a position to review that issue. I have meetings set up with the Teachers' Society, I think within about two weeks, and the purpose of the meeting is to review the resolutions that were passed at their convention and I understand that will be one of them that they will be presenting to me. MR. FILMON: Has the Minister had an oppor tunity to discuss either with the MTS or with her department the proposal for a teachers' professional bill which I believe is in existence and has been discussed by the Teachers' Society in the past and believe is still one of their objectives? MRS.

HE MPHI LL: Mr. Chairman, I have presently two meetings sched uled with the Teachers' Society. The one is to review resolutions and I believe that one of the two or three items on the agenda for the June meeting is the professional bill. I have not yet had a chance to discuss that with them. MR. FILM ON: Since the Minister, I believe, has main­ tained a close liaison in the past with the Manitoba Teachers' Society and has been in close commu nica­ tion, does she have any views on the advisability of a teacher's professional bill for the province? MRS. HEM PHI LL: I must say, Mr.

Chairman, that in the course of learning a very complicated job one of the things I have found is that it is very imp ortant to not prej udge issues and to listen to the people that are presenting them to you. In other words I am waiting to hear, not just the recommendation but the rationale, the reasons, the supporting docu mentation and information that they will present to me when we discuss this issue before maki ng a judgment. MR.

FILMON: Will the Minister also consult closely with parents, adminis trators and elected officials at the school board level prior to making her judg ments on various things including the resolutions of the Teachers' Society and the proposed teacher's profes­ sional bill? MRS. HE MPHI LL: Mr. Chairman, I believe one of the things I have been doing since I took office is maki ng myself available at quite considerable lengths to all groups, organ izations and people to discuss any number of issues or problems that they want to dis­ cuss.

It is the result of hearing from and talking to the wide variety of groups and people that I believe I've been able to identify and understand some of the problems, concerns and issues that are facing us right now. To the deg ree that I can, we have discussed having interorganizational agendas on topics that are of common concern to all of them and going as far as we can to make decisions or to deal with issues together in trying to elimi nate the numbers of things where people have to take conflict or opposite positions.

So when we have been dealing with issues to date that have an effect or a position from a number of organi­ zations, I meet and discuss the issue with all of them and if I can, I bring them together to discuss the issues. MR. FILMON: I think, Mr. Ch airman, that it would be difficult to include non involved or non biased, shall we say, parents as well as other mem bers of the general community with respect to these issues.

I think it would be important for the Minister in discussing things of the nature of the proposal to limit class sizes to 20 students and limit the hours of instruction for teachers to 20 per week or the various pros and cons of a professional bill for the teachers. There's no question that however much we might admire and hope to support teachers, they do have a special interest in various proposals that they're bringing forward just as any special interest group does.

The responses which may come to their prop­ osals may not only come from organized groups such as MAST or the school principal's group or others, they may well come from the gener al public and par­ ents who have a very grave stake in the interest of the future education of their children. I think it's as imp or­ tant to listen to these unorganized groups who will not necessarily appear in the interorganizational get­ togethers that the Minister has, as to all of the others. MRS. HE MPHI LL: I don't think there is a question there but I will respond to the though t.

I must say that I'm pleased to hear the ideas of the Member for Tuxedo because he is supporting what I have been saying very clearly, I believe, since I took office and talking about and that is the importance of involving parents and the pub lic and the community in things that affect their children and their school. I have been saying that al I along that they are one of the partners, I suppose is a way to describe it, and that how they feel and what they believe is as important as what we believe in our professionJI or elected capacities. 2304 MR. FILMON: In Item (e), Mr.

Chairman, after Teacher Certification, is noted Records. I wonder could the Minister indicate what Records are kept on either teachers or students with respect to the pub lic school system. MRS. HEMP HI LL: We maintain academic records for grade 1Ot o12 students. We issue transcripts for those stud ents. We maintain the teacher certification records. We maintain all types of information on teachers data on teachers, aca demic qual ifications, classifications, years of experience. MR. FILMON: What is the policy with respect to the

Thursday, 6 May, 1982 confidentiality of these records, Mr. Chairman? MRS. HEMP HI LL: Mr. Chairman, the policy related to the que stion of access that the mem ber has raised is that the information on student records is considered confidential but it is accessible to students and par­ ents. It is accessible to teachers. If it is an individ ual it is privileged but on aggregate it is all right. In other words, teachers could have access to agg regate information for the purpose of research, or could not have access to an individual student's records. MR.

FILMON: An individual student's records are only accessible by the student himself or herself or the student's parents. Is that what the Minister is saying? MRS. HE MPHIL L: That is correct, or the parents. MR. FILMON: Does that change if the student is an adult? MRS. HEMPH ILL: Yes, if the student is 18 it is res­ tricted to the student. MR. FILMON: With respect to the teachers' records, to whom are they accessible, or by whom are they accessible? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, those records are available to the teacher himself or herself only. MR. FILMON: Why are they kept by the depar tment then, Mr. Chairman?

If they're only for the purpose of the teacher, that teacher could keep them themse lves. Obviously, the department must need them for some purpose. MRS. HEMP HILL: Mr. Chairman, once again, records on the individual are totally confidential, but the agg regate information will sometimes be used for research purposes by different branches of the department and some of the information that is kept, which is the classification o