Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 105 (27th Legislature, 4th Session)

27-4-105

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF l\IANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, May 1ith: 1965 Openi(\g, Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAJ\1 SPEAKE;R: Presenting Petitions Reading and Heceiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and .Special Committees Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills 2633 Before th,e Or·:lers of the Day. I .would. like to attract your attention to the gallery where there are sopJ.e 100 Grade 5 and 6. students from Centennial School under the direction of their teachers lV):r .. Pawlychka, Mr. Lab.un andMiss B .. Larter.

This.school is situated in the con stituency of the Honourable the Mem.ber for Seven O:!ks. On beh.alf of all members of this Legislatiye Assembly, I welcome you. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (S te. Rose): Madam Speaker. before the Orde.rs of .the Day l would like to address a question to the First Minister. regarding the Hansard. We have just received on our desks this afternoon the Hansard for last Wednesday 8:00 o'clock session.

I. realize that with three sessions. a day it makes it. much more difficult for the Hans�rd staff to keep up. but this is really making it very difficult h�re .in certain of the debates -for example the speech of the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Re sources which was made on Thursday, and which would be very helpful. and it is now almost a week behind. I wonder if he could indicate when we may expect the following Hansards. !ION. DUFF ROBLlN (Premier) (Wolseley): I'll enquire of the Hansard staff. .Madam Speaker. · . . . MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Bro kenhead): .

Before the Orders of the Day I would Uke to ask the Minister: of M.ines and R,esour(]es if he is able to reply .to me as yet to that question I put to him �few days .ago, namely .. whether or not the question of access on Highway 59 was a point at issue in the settlement of some of the c !aims along Highway 59. Pine Ridgy Park area. HON. STERLING R LYON. Q. C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Reso.urces) (Fort Garry): ..... ,. my information, al,though I haven't detailed information. on each owner. but in a general way I have not heard of that being an issue.

I can enquire further if there are particu lar cases that It1Y hpnourable friend would care to tell me about. !ION. ROBERT G. SMELLIE, Q. C. (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtle- .RusseU): Madam Speaker, b_efore the Orders of the Day I would like to reply to a question that. was made of me this. mornip.g by the Honourable the Leader of the Oppositjon, who asked. some informa., tion concernjng By- Law No.. 272 of the Local Government District of Consol.

First of alL under the Local Govern�ent District's Act, the by-laws of a local government district are sent in for approval )Jy tbe supervisor of local government distrids before they are given third readip.g. In,th� case of tax cancellation by-laws, or by-laws for the borrowing -- or by-laws for the establishment of a reserve fund under

Section 639. those by-laws are always a,ppr.o,ved by the PEJputy Minister or the Assistant Deputy Minister of the .Department. In all other cases they axe approved by the supervisor o;r the assh:;tant supervisor of local government districts. The by-laws as a ru.le a:�;e no['com.pared with other jurisdictions althoughin some. case,s, where the department's assistance has been requested in the drafting of by-laws - and this dpes hap pen occa �ionally - precedents are used from by-laws in other jurisdictions ip.c luding other locaL goverr:mient districts, and in some cases municipalities.

Withparticular reference to By-law 2'(2 of the Local Government District of Consol, pur local gqvernm�nt d,istric.t office received a, complaint from Mr. c:, �- Bowles.�f Cranberry Po:t;"tag;e jn a letter dated January 29th, 1965. This c<;>mplaint was followed t,tp by a letter from the C!:j.nbercy P<;n;tage Chan�ber 0f co m:merce which was addressed torn.e but washat);dled Ly the Assistau't Deputy Minister in.

April of this year. .· · · .I� :196.1, represei)tations '·"ere made. to the resident ad1pinistrator of ·the Lo�:;tl Govern::: ment Districtof Conso[ requesting some form of licencing and regulation of taxicab operation in tbatd.istrtct. · In the Wabowden area particularly a petition was signed by 92 residents re questip.g supervision and contn-.1 of taxical.J operations.

As a, resuLt of these reprqsenta�ions the ,\.dminis,trato� cUd pass a by-law on December 18, 1964, which by-law is essentially the . same as the �y.:laws, g0ve.rning the same r.na.tters in the Local Government Dis.tricts qf Churchill anq Qrand :ftapi,ds. The, fe.�

schedule imposed by By�law 272 is .the sam(:) as that irrtpOSecl in .. Churchill and in Grand Rapids, and represents a fee. of $100. 00 for �he .i,ss.ue 9f the, first licence

26 34 May 11th, 1965 (MR; SMELLIE cont'd. ) .. , • to a taxicab operator and $50. 00 for each annual renewaL MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I thank the Minister for his statement. The complaint as I have it is that the fees charged in local government districts are substantially higher than those charged in towns and cities; for example, in this particular case, Cranberry Portage, which is covered by the figures the Minister gave,

whereas in Flin Flon I unde rstand that the charges are half that, where the licence fee is only $25, 00; in fact, the operator's permit is only $L 00 compared to $10. 00 in the local government district. Should there not be some re lationship in this case where -- because. the local government district is directl y adjoining another municipal corporation, should they not attempt to have their fees somewhat close ? MR. SMELLI E: I think it's a matter that the Administrator should take into considera tion when he's preparing a by-law, in the same way that probably the City of St.

Boniface would like to consider fees that are charged in the neighbouring City of Winnipeg when they are making a similar by-law. but there is no control imposed. Both are autonomous bodi es. If the City of St. Boniface wants to charge a higher fee than Winnipeg, there's nothing to stop them from doing so, and the same thing with the local government district as compared' with neighbouring . municipalities . MR. MOL GAT : But. Madam Speaker, the local government district is not an elected body ..

It's an adm inistrator doing this who is an employee of the local government district but basically it comes back to being an employee of the government, so has the government when. they get some of these - does the government check to see to it that they are in relation ship to others? MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Madam Speaker, before. the Orders of the Day I would like to dire ct a question to the Minister of Industry and Com_n erce.

Has the government given any consideration to honouring the Manitoba Champions; or Doniinion Cham plons . such as Leo Johnson, Terry Braunstein, Peggy Castleman, for bringing honours to Manitoba during the past winter? HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge ): On at least those occasions that my honourab le friend has mentioned, some member of the government has met them at the. station. There are no further plans under way at the present time. MR. GUTTORMSON: ... , ...... .. some consideration to holding a dinner for them? .MR. SME LLIE : Madam.

Speaker, I'm afraid the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce was not completely informed. The Manitoba Championship rinks have all been invited to attend a dinner sponsored by the Province of Manitoba on the 19th of May. MR. SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, would the First Mini ster entertain .a question having to do with the debate that is raging or would he prefer me to wait?

Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that we have, in my opinion, reached sort of a stand -off, a conundrum stage in this debate , I was wonde ring whether the Premier has con sidered the possibi lity of bringing in legislation treating pensions, indemni ties, research as sistance, etc. , in the future, in the same way as electoral·boundar ies are treated. That is, remove it from this House entirely. I just wonde r if hl:l has considered this as a possibility for .future action. MR.

ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for the question because I think it is a matter that has been causing us I think quite evidently deep concern on this side of the House, because with respect to the present measure that is before us it is obvious that there is a very deep divis ion of opinion as to its ad visability.

There seems to be, if I judge the tenour of the debate correctly, there seems to be some dispos ition on the part of most of the mem�e rs to accept the idea of some kind of a pension plan in principle -' I think that can be fairly said -b ut that there is the deepest divis ion of opinion as to whether the present one is one that is satisfactory in the interests of the legislative process in the province, and a.S a: result of that situation which has become an impasse - I think one can fairly say that � it would not be the intention of the government to call the motion for resuming work in the committee, that we d:> not intend to proceed with this bill although we beli eve tha:t the principle of'it is sound.

We think, in view of the problems that have arisen in connection• with it and the 'state of information in respect to it, that it would not be :advis able to proceed with it, and we are giving consideration of ways and means of dealing with this matter in such a way as to placE! it outside the realm where we might be thought to be acting unrestrainedly in our own self interest.

I think that that suggestion is one that has been giving us some reason to think the matte'r over. and it would be our hope that we could find some other system of dealing \vith this matter so that it would not be necessary to have it dealt with in the way that it's being dealt with at present. So that is the position. with respecHo that matter. ·

May 11th. 1965 26 35 MR. SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, a subsequent question. I know the Premier doesn't probably wish to indulge in idle ·speculation. but as to the specific suggestion oHnine. has .. he· any proposal or thought? · · MR. ROBLIN: . .' . . ;; ...... ·a very interesting line of thought. · I take it that your sug:.. gestion ·is that matters ofthis sort should really be dealt with: by an independent body such· as·'' the Electoral Boundaries Commission, which would make a recommendation 'to this House· which we in turn would consider.

I think probably that is a very fruitful way of going into this matter, because it is apparent that the present system is not producing a: satisfactory measure of agreement. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, do 1 understand it correctly then that the. government is not going to proceed at all with Committee of the Whole insofar as Bill 110 and there'll be no further debate on that issue? Is that correct? MR. BOBLIN: We do not intend to call the item. MR.

RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader · of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Madam Speaker·,· !·wonder if I might have the privilege of the House to make a statement in respect of this particular matter if this is the case. MADAM SPEAKER: Has the Honourable Member leave of the House? MR. MOLGAT: Provided other members will have the same ....• , MADAM SPEAKER: I might state before I allow this that I do not intend to let this develop into a debate, that every member in the House would have the same privilege; otherwise I must refuse it to the Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR.

PAULLEY: ... ...... that would be quite all right. I would withdraw my request to be able to make a statement in the House if that is the case, but I want to say that I will be preparing one as to our position. so that it would be given publicity elsewhere on this particular matter. · MR. ROBLIN: We will now prooeed to the debate on Ways and Means, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please. The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister, and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition.

The Honourable the Member for Gladstone. MR. MOLGAT: The honourable member, I think, was part way through his speech the other day when the House was called and I presume that he is not finished. He is not in his seat right at the moment. I think he'll be prepared to go on. If someone else wishes to go on in the meantime, there is no objection. MADAM SPEAKER: Any other member wishing to speak? Are you ready for the ques tion? The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gla dstone): Madam Speaker, I'm' sorry that I have tempor arily held up the proceedings.

I take it that we're on the Budget Speech and they have solved the other problems relative to the pension. Well, Madam Speaker, the other evening, after speaking for about 10 minutes on the amendment that is before us, I think that I clearly pointed up that there had been a steady and substantial increase in real property taxes since 1958, and I pointed up too that the $50. 00 re bate which I and every other real property owner in the province could look forward to receiv ing shortly would not nearly meet the increase in real property taxes since this government took office.

I also pointed up, I think quite clearly, that the provincial taxes paid in total by the taxpayers of this province had more than doubled since 1958, because the budget of this province in 1958 was in the neighbourhood of 80 million and presently it is 185 million, ·so certainly it's more than double and nobody is so naive to believe that they do not have to pay sums of this magnitude. Therefore the people of this province will have to pay this year $185 million whether they like it or not, and I suggest they don't like it.

I also pointed up that there had been a huge increase in the provincial debt, arid quoted an

article where the First Minister had admitted that the interest on the debt was 850 times since he took office. Well, if the interest is up 850 times, I suggest that the debt would be up by the same token. --(Interjection) -- It wouldn't be up by the same token? Well, ·then I would be interested to know· why it wouldn't be. because if 1 had to pay - unless the interest rates are -- there's a difference in interest rates or something, I can •t see why it wouldn't. because my honourable friend the First Minister. in replying to the Member for Lakeside on this very mat ter, I thought had admitted that the province was more or less debt"'-free when he took office,

May 11th: Hl6'l (MR. SH(JEMAKER con:t!cl .. / . . . ·. m.ore or less debt�free: a;nd now, oi <!ourse . it is far from being·debt.,-f ree . . Jn. fact. 1 don't know how much the debt picture has changed sin.ce one ye�· . ago, bu� a year ago when we met . he.re I think my honourable cblleague and· leader of our. Party pointed up quite cl�arly that Manitoba had the highest per oapita debt.load of any province i. n Canada, and I would b.e interested to know whether that has changed substantially since a year . ago. Now.

Madam Speaker, another interesting news arti.cle that I would likP my honourable friend to explain when he gets up. because I suppose that my honourable friend the First Mini ster wHl be reply.ing t.o me. and that is for him to explain how it is that the debt Left by the Liberals was the ,only debt that wa$ not active-ly working fox the province - I'm qLwting wha, the Premier said at the $10. 00 a plate dinner that they had here awhile ago - "The only portion of the provincial debt which is not actively working for Manitobans is a charge that was in herited from the previous Liberal Government, Premier Duff Roblin said on Wednesday night.

" And that's quite a statement to make. And of course it is fairly safe to make a statement of that kind at that kind of a meeting, because surely there-'s not going to be anybody . get up at a Conservative convention and question any kind of a statement that my honourable friends wou ld make - that is that the Cabinet would make. I know that they questioned my honourable friend the Attorney-General on this heat tax.

He was kind of hard put for an answer, but on this one surely there if:l !3ome way of answering that - that the only portion of the province's debt which is not actively working for Manitobans is that part that they inherited from the previous Liberal government. Perhaps we could have a clarific!).tion of that. Well now. Madam Speaker. according to information that has come to Jur attention it appears that we are still in for considerable more taxes. Here is the Home and School Asso ciation of Manitoba - Dr. W. C. Lorimer speaking.

He said that "there do esn 't seem to oe · man; other. sources large enough to support the rising cost of social services and education other than a sales tax. " And he's warning the people that a sales tax for education is foreseen. At least he can foresee it. Here is anothe.r one about the same day February 26th: "Property owners face more taxes. Big jump in the city mill rl:).te.

An increase of 5, 71 mill s in real property taxes for 1965 was the outstanding feature of a prelimin ary draft budget for the coming year unveiled Thursda y at the meeting o.f City .F inance Comm ittee." So Ne certainly haven't seen the end of it yet. "Thio. '' it said, "� ould mean a tax increase of $22. 84 on the average Winnipeg home assessed. at $4, 000." Half of the $5 0. 00 .is gone out the window in one fell sw oop. And. Madam Speaker, the Alumni Association.

University of Manitoba - my partner has been associated with them for 30 years I guess, and annually they approach him for a dona tion. and no doub t my honourable friends opposite they are approached likewise. This year they are after funds again and I want to. read you what they say; and no doubt, Madam Speaker. you will have received one .of these. "Alumni Fund Facts". A bl ank cheque for you to sign. return enve lope stamped, everything. It says: "What is the typical gift?

The problem has been made more difficult for many prospective students this year because of a $7 5. 00 increase in tuition fees, Many applicants who deserve assistance will not find it from any source because there will not be enough money available .. Last year the Association was able to provide for only 40 bursari es. " Well, Madam Speaker,. that's quite a statement. I guess my honourable friend the Minister of Ed.ucation likely got one of these because -- (Interjection) -- Certainly I'd like an answer to this.

He can answer it now or after I sit down and if he would like to make a donation I will send this over with a blank cheque -- Well these people apparently were very concerned over the fact that they will .need extra assistance this year. and they are putting on a special drive for more money. HON. GEORGE JOHNSQN (Minister of Education) (Gimlil: Let them do it. I'm a mem ber of that. What's the matter with it? 1\'l:t;l. SHOEMAKER: And. then. Madam Speaker. here is a fellow who is Looking for as sistance and he really feels sorry for the people of this province. and who do you think it is? Who do you think it is?

It's the. Honour.able Nicholas Mandziuk .. the Member for Marquette. and o;hortly after the special session that we had last August �t whieh $20 millioa of new taxes were imwosed on us poor peopie in t)1e Assembly that need a pension" shortly after. that - Mr .. M andziu k g ot up in the House of Commo ns, on Ord:ers of the Day 1 think. 1 think he got up befo1·e the Orders of, the Day ·>and I'm going to re:;td it - it's a short one � bcca!.lse it points up that my ho,no.urabl e fr�ends ' fri.ends are feeLing sony foa� us:.

"The lfederat Government was Llrged: 0n Tuesday to revise its mail: contracts upwards so that the m.ai:L c:ontrac to1rs in Manitoba

. May 1i th. 1965 (MR .. SHOEMAkER cont'd.) ...... would be able to offset the additional burdt:m of the Matiitoba Govarnmenhi in<;rea:?ed gasoline tax; Nicholas Mandziuk, P. c. Marquette, said that the Manitoba Governnient's recent hike in gasoline· tax had imposed a hardship on mail contractors· using trucks in :Manitoba. He asked if Postmaster-General J. R. Nicholsi:mhad issued in structions for an upward revision of the Federal mail contracts to take care' of the higher gaso line tax in Manitoba. Mr.

Nicholson said he did not think the effect of taxes ofthe different provinces. on mail contracts was a question before· the Orders of the Day. " So that 1il'oves what I said . ... . .. .. . · ·· · Mr. Mandziuk protested because he said the Postmaster- General was quite prepared to answer the question arid should have answered the question. He said if he placed it on the OrdarPa pe'r it would not be answered for months, and that's why he asked it on Orders of the Day. So Mr.

Mandziuk consideredit so important and the effects of this new gasoline tax on the mail contractors, that he raised it in the House of Commons, and wanted' to know what they were going to doaboutit down there. And, Madam Speaker. my. honourable colleague. the leaderof our.Party, raised aquestion on the Orders of the Day.

Tbelieve, just earlier - no, last week, I guess it was, - relative to municipal machinery and the fact that presently munici pal machinery ;owned and operated by the municipality, was axempt from the 15 cents a gallon tax levied oh dieselfuel, and asked whether the Honourable the First Minister and Provincial Treasurer was prepared to give the same consideration for gasoline used for the same purpose'. And my honourablefriendthe First Minister said that this was being taken care of, or some thing to that effect: I wish that,be'fore we prorogue he would make a statement in that regard.

Talking about taxes again, here is a fuel tax -- it is suggested that the new imposed fuel tax adds $26, 000 additional cost to city schools. Now. Madam Speaker, we -- the other part of the resolution deals with -- the first part of it says that "the House regrets that despite the · steady and alarining increases in debt and taxes" - I have dealt with them to some extent; . The other one says that the government has failed to promote adequate economic growth in Manitoba. So I will tcy and show tha.t we are not keeping up with the national averag�.

And in order to do that, I have to refer you to one of the -- I think one of the best pubiications in this regard is the Survey of Markets, 1964-65, put out by the Financial Post, and it devotes considerable space to all aspects of markets and growth and sales and two.:.car families and so on, all across Canada. And on Page 211 of that famous document, it says that as regards markets. Manitoba' is four percent below the national average; and it shows the retail sales per capita.

And the next one i·s the inqom:e is four percent below the national average. 'Per. capita income. in Manitoba- we Were talking about that this morning. According to tnis it 's $1, 510 - four per cent below the national average. On the next page, on Page 213, under Building Permits and Construction, the numher of employees -- arid this is rather an interesting one, Madam Spaaker. Do you know that in 1964, according to this, there were 1, 800. less, 1, 800 less employees in the building and construction trades in 1964 than there were in i959 in Manitoba. !n fact, they have gone dowu every year since 1959.

There has been a general decline in the number of employee'S in the building and cohstruc'tipn trades. And then, so much has been said about the net farm income -- I was'· going to refer to that h �twe dealt so much with that on agrici.dtural estimates that it would only be repetition to. say anything about it now. But it was clearly pointed up that the farm net income - and that's what we're concerned about, is the net income - is certainly anything but satisfactory ..

And even my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, in the big survey that was made, and the figures that he tabled in the House proved that a farmer with something· like $51, ooo invested received $6.60 a day net income for a 10:..h our day or 66 cents' per hour. Wetl certairily tliat is below the .national average and certainly it is not satisfactoryby any ·. stretch ofthe imagination.

Even my honoui'able friend the First Minister admitted under cross' examination tb:atManitopa has '1a deplorable growth rate for industria( employment." That's what :he sai(}. himself, "Our gains in the last few years have been distressingly small; Mr. Roblin said." He admits that. Madiilii Speaker, I have two or three more indications that Manitoba' is not keeping pace with. the rest·ofCanada.

On Page 17 of this famous document put outby the FinanCial Post,· the whole p'age r7· is devoteci' to the provincial markets, by province, bY province. and the pers.on�l disposable h1come in Manitoba was up 17. 7 percent since 1959, but Saskatchewan was up 50.1 percent in the same period; Alberta was up 26.4 percent in the same period; and Bh t'ish''Coluni.bia was up 18. 8 · perceht in the same period. • So who is behind? The retail sales in 1963 - and my honourable friend always likes to use the three prairie

26 38 May 11th, 1�?9 , , (MR. SHqEMi\.KER coat'.d. ) .. , .p rqv�nces, or the four or five western province$, ·W'hen he's comparing tax loads and everything el se - and here once again. In. 1963, the .r�t[lil sales per capita: MFtnitoba $950.00, ar> I said before; Saska�chewan $1, 120; A lberta $ 1, 110; B, C. $1, 120. oo. Where .are we again?. Two or three hundred dolla rs below aU the other.prqvinces ' in ret:;tH sales, and this is a p ;retty good measuring stick. ·. If you h!'lven •t got th,e l!lOn.ey you · can't spend it. We U you can, but you can't keep it up very Jong. . .· · · . , .

The farm cash income -I said I. wasn't going to, talk apout it but it's interesting to' nofe · here, that since 1959 - this is the gross income - it's up 16.9 in Manitoba: it's up'25 . 9 in Saskatchewan; 21 percent in B. C. - still away up over Manitoba. And in consumption of .· electrical power -:- and this is a pretty good indicatiqn of the expansion ofindustry; the con sumption of electrical power. Because. after an is said and .done, we use a certain amount' in our homes but it's son13truction and it's indus try that uses a lot of it.

The percentage in�� eas� from 1959 to 1963: in Manitoba it's up 12. 7 percent over '59; .Saskatchewan 95 pereent - just ' about doub le; Alberta, 43.6 percent; B. C. , 23 .4 perceQ.t. So whe.re are we agafn?

Just half as much , half as great an increase as the lowest one of the four prairie provinces. . .. · And ao, Mad.am Speaker, I think that I need say nothing else to clearly point up that we have had this alarming.- because there's no other adjective thati ·know that can describe it better than the one we.have used in this amendment - we have h;ld steady and alarming inc;ease·s in del:>t and taxes, certainly we have .

Every taxpayer wiU agree with that. ·The· statistics that I have read here, the Financial Post, the business institutions, wi.u teli you we have not kept pace with. the national average in growth and therefore -- well I don it expect iny honour able friends wiU ·- they may agree with it in part - they wiU not vote � ith me . but I recom- ment that every one in the House who has felt the impact of these taxes should vote. with the resolution �hat is before us. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote d. eclared the motion lost: MR MOLGAT: Ayes and nays, Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members. The question before the House , the proposed motion in amendme. nt thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. A standingvote was taken, with the following result: · YEAS: Messrs. Barkman, Cherniack, Desjardins , Froese, Gray, Guttormson, Harris, Hillhouse, Molgat. Patrick. PauUey, Peters, Schreyer, Shoemaker, Smerchanski, Tanchak, and Vielfaure. NAYS : Messrs. Baizley, Beard, Bilton, Bjornson, Carron, Cqwan, Evans ,. Groves, Hami lton, Harrison, Jeannotte, Johnson, Klym, Lissa man, Lyo n, McD::mald, McKellar, McLean, Martin.

Mills , Moeller, Roblin, Stanes, Steinkopf, Weir, Witney and Mrs. Morrison. MR. CL ERK: Yeas, 17; Nays, 27. MADAM SPEAKER: I decla re the motion lost. The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister. · . · MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster): Madam Speaker, is this on the main. motion? MADAM SPEAK ER : Yes. MR. GRAY: May I say a word please ? Approximate ly two years ago I made an announce ment in .this House to the effect that I had no intention of continuing as a member after the new election was called. I shall make sure that I shall not change my mind.

I have enjoyed the mod0st service which I have been abJe to render to the people of Manitoba. At my request the Inkster constituency, whicn I have had the honour to. represent during the last two terms , have nominated a very fine gentleman to take my place. At the outset, !wish to thank the electors of Winnipeg who have on all occasions elected me to represent them in various capacities. With this fourth session of parliament, I conclude 40 years of publicly elected service. The electors·have been most kind. to me during my political career. Lwas nominated and elected each time,.

I was a candidate for the New Democratic Party in both public and communal life, and I allowed my name to stand. As I already stated in this House . I arrived �n Winnipega.s an immigrant. along with thousands of others during the early part of .this 20th century. I have enjoyed every minute over the years., in fact for more than half a century, the .freedom and democr acy which are so much a part,of the Canadi\ln way of life.

I wish thes�·r e'w remarks to tell those ofthe new generation . � f the vast number of immigrants who at that tirri,eca� e to a(!d their con,tribution t.o the prqgress of our entry in an endeavour to compepsate for th;e priviiege . and freedom accorded them in their new land of adoption . . As one of the senior )mmigran. ts . I· speak. although without official authority, on behalf of. those many thousands who nave eont'ributed so m'wh towards making our lives in . Canada happy. .. . . -

May 11th, 1965 26 39 (MR. GRAY cont'd. ) And now; Madam Speaker, as a member of a new progressive movement in this Legis lature, may I recite a brief history of our movement in Canada and a suggestion for progress which we have made and which we were for a time ignored but later adopted. Several da ys ago I was re-r eading the Frida y, September 28th. 1934 edition of The Manitoba Common wealth. the official organ of the then CCF in Canaja.

The paper contains the manifesto and the program of the Co-operative Com:nonwealth Federation as adopte d at the first annual convention of the Federation in Regina in July 1933. I happened to be there. It was extremely interesting to me to find in this historic document many of the progress we Canadians toda y enjoy and will in time be enjoying. Since my special area of interest has always.b een that of social welfare, I am going to restrict my comments to this part of the program that dealt with social welfare in 1933 and much earlier.

The program of the Co-operative CommonweaLth Federation was totally re jected by government in Canada. It was only after ceaseless effo'rts to educ ate the public that the CCF and its successor, the New Democratic Party, have succeeded in persuading Con servative and Liberal ad minis trations to adopt these enl ightening measure s. In 1933 the CC F advocated a national labour codt.: . Years later they got one. Perhaps not per fect,but on the way. In 1933 the CCF advocated insurance covering illness and acciden ts.

Most. pro vinces and the federal government now have Workmen •s Compensation legislation on their statute books. In 1933 the CCF ad vocated old age pensions and got them. Since then we have constantly pressed for increases in pension,to allow pensio ners to live at a dece nt standard. We have not had complete success,but at least now it •s an improvement on the $20. 00 a month which they originally received at that time . In 1933 the CCF advocated publicly - organized and financed health, hospital and medical services.

Saskatchewan has now these provided, and other provinces are rapidly moving in that direction . Before the City of Winnipeg planned to build its own municipal publicly-o wned Hydro system, the rate for electricity was approximately 20 cents a kilowatt hour . . During the time between when the plans were started, construction underway, and until it was completed and ready for the distri bution of electrical power. the rate dropped gradually to less than one cent per kilowatt hour, thus enabling our people to utilize the power not only in their homes bJ.t in indus try as well.

Manj of our rural areas have now benefited too. enabling our farmers to remain on the farm and get some of the privileges of the city people. This is so essential for our economy . I would also mention that while water was being sold in Montreal at that time. for instance unde r private ownership at a high cost, the City of Winnipeg under public owner ship built its own water system giving our citizens water at the lowest cost, as $3.00 for a three months' supply .

We now have a school for the deaf, a dental college , a Bill of Rights, and many other progressive institutions which were rejected by most of the governments in Manitoba and others for the years since 1933. These are remarkable achievements for a party that, with the exception of Saskatchewan, has never held office unfortunately, because it was not a Labour-oriented party in Canada which implement these much-needed pieces of social legislation. The public think that the legisla tion has not been as beneficia[ as might have been expected.

The legisla tion was pas sed because the governments of the da y could no longer resist the demand of Canadians for a guarantee of a decent standard of living and reasonable security. The legislation was intro duced on a piecemeal basis, and because of this functioned ineffectively and ineff iciently. Social .W elfare legisla tion in Manitoba is no exception. I think it is about this, Madam Speaker, that we re-e xamine thereasons for having the numerous pieces of social welfare legis lation that we now have on the statute bool;:s.

What we are trying to do is to guarantee each Canadian a decent standard of living. I want to sugg�st to the government that the. cost of ensurinK each .M anitoban a decent standar d of living could be vastly reduced if the govern ment would now determine the amount of income that each person required to maintain. him- . self in a manner considered to be acceptable by. our society, and simply guarantee each. per son this income of a single statute, at the same time raise our standard of living.

Madam Speaker, the promise of Manitoba is reached now by putting in all the main utilities in the hands of public ownership. We have not made any failure in taking over the Hydro power in the province. We have not made any failure in the Telephone System: We have not made any failure in other utilities from which we derive a profit and at the same time protect the people of this province.

2640 May lith. 1965 (MR. GRAY cont'd. ) . Th is will no doubt be my last comment in this session. and I want to extend to all the member�.who �i ll be goh1g.h ome today or tomorrow or Friday a very healthy and prosperous year. May the crops be good. May everyone be well. And believe me , I would like to see each and every qne here next year as healthy and as peaceful and with the same iJhility to talk for two days on one bill - or three days on one bi ll.

I think it's wonderf ul. although sometimes it was a little bit tiresome . but every one .in their own interest and in the interest of what they think is good for the people that they represent, their constituencies. have done the best they could . . I want to announce one ll).Ore thing, that .I have a side line. Not a profitable - no more profitable th:;m Bill 110, but at the san1e time it gives me a chance to be the representative not only of the Leg islature but be a representative of my synagogue.

I usually am an amateur Cantor, and whn I do my praying down there on the Day of Atonement and other holidays , I shall remember each and every one here. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote dec lared the motion carried. MR. ROBL IN: Madam Speaker, will you ask the Honourable Member for Brandon to take .the Chair for the Committee of Ways and Means, MADAM SPEAKER : Would the Honourable the Member for Brandon please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEA NS MR.

CHAIRMAN : Resolved t!1at towards making good the sums of money granted to Her Majesty for the ptlblic service of the Province for the fiscal year ending 31st day of Marcn 1966, the sum of $172, 148 ,8 69 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund. MR. QHAIRMAN put the question and after a voice vote de clared the motion carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resoived that towards making good certain sums of money for various capital purposes, the sum of $39, 527 ,3 27 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund. MR. CHAIRMAN put the questiqn and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. IN SE SSION MR.

CHAIRMAN : Madam Spea.;:er, the Committee has passed certain resolutions and asked me to report the same. . MR. R., 0. LISSAMAN (Brandon ): .Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourabie Mem,ber for St. Matthews, that the report of the Committee be received. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote dec lared the motion carried. MR . . ROBLIN : Madam .Spea ker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Minister of Industry and Commerce, that the Resolutions reported from the Committee of Ways and Means be now read a se.cond time and col).curred in. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion.

MR. CLERK: Resolved that towards making good the sums of money granted to Her Majesty for the public service of the Province for the fiscal year ending 31st day of March 1966, the sum of $172, 148 . 8\\9 be granted out of Consolidated Fund. Resol ved that toward.s making gpod certain sums of money for the various capital purposes, the sum of $39,.527, 327 be granted out of Consoli dated Fund. . MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote dec lared the motion carried. MR.

IlOBLIN: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Attorney-Ge�eral, by leavE;!, that Mad!j.ID Speaker do no,w leave the Chair and the House resolve itself intoCom mittee of the Whole to .consider the following proposed resolutions standing in my name . and I will read them because they are not before the Members. · 1. Resolved that it is expedie nt to bring in a tneasure to amend The Revenue Act 1964. by prov�ding among other things(

a) for a method of determining th(;l purchase price ofa tax able product unde.r. P,art 1 of the Act in certain circumstances; (

b) for the repeal of

Part 2 of the Act r(;lspecting the imposition of a tax ofl and transfers; and (

c) authorizing the scho:>l tax rebate under

Part 10 pf the i\ct be paid to O<:!CUpiers ()f land who are liable fo:r the payment of municipal taxes. . . 2. T hat it is expe.dient to bring in a measure to amend The Income Tax (Manitoba) Act 1962 .. by providi11g that Corporations with foreign inc.ome be allowed in certain circumstances to make a deduc tiqn frqm the .tax payable under the Act in any year in respec,t of taxes paid to

May llt)l. ];9q5 ' . . · - ,. . 2641 (MR.· ROBLIN gont'd:) . . ; .... a.foreign country, :in respect of. income earned in that· country. • 3 . . •Resolved thaLit is expedient.: to bring.in a measure to amend The Tobacco Tax Act by provi.ding.ambng -other things for- a procedure by which the Minister may make an estimate of the amount of tax imposed and collected under the Act in certain circumstances.

MADAM SPEAKER ·presented the motion and after.a voice vote declared the motion carrieod, andthe.House. resolved itself into a Committee of the.Whole House with the Honour� able Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE wHOLE; HOUSE MR. ROBLIN: The Lieutenant.'-'Governor, having been informed of the subJect matter of the proposed resolutions, recommends them to the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: First resolution passed-- MR: MOLGAT: Ml". Chairman; will there be an explanation from ....... . MR.

RUBLIN: These three bills, they are by.and large procedural bills. and the mem bers will have the bills in their hands for second reading in a minute or. two. but I would like to give a briefexplanation as to what's inthem. The first has to do with ,the Revenue Act, and .in that particular

section we· are making some am�ndments to the way in which the value for tax purposes is calculated with respect to electricity that may be transferred from .a parent company to one of its subsidiwies. Thi.s is a problem that has arisen in the .course of working out the tax system. Secondly. we are re pealing

Part 2 of the bill which had to do with the land transfer tax. Thac's being repeale d by this bill.. And thirdlY', we:·a:re making an addition to the definition respecting "parcel" to make sure that it is particularly clear, particularly with respect to railway rights of way a,1d gas pipelines.

Railway rights of way and gas pipelines do not attract the usual municipal·taxation which •is about:4ikpercent of the assesse.d value, but they attract a rate of taxation between eight percent and tweLve percent of the assessed value, and under the circumstances it was thought thatthey .should not be.eligible for-school tax rebate because they don't pay, the regular school .tax as -other property holders do, so those amendments are being made to The Revenue Act and . that's the first·Resolution that's before you . . MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution passed-- MR.MOLGAT : .. • . . . . ... ·is it, that deals with that resolution, Mr. Chairman. MR. ROBLIN: No,

an Act to amend The Revenue Act, Bill No. 2. MR. MOLGAT: Bill .No; 2? MR. ROBLIN: Rif!:ht, MR. · MOLGAT: Mr; 'Chairman, it is pretty difficult for us to -- MR. ROBLIN: Well, ·w hat I wa.s going to propose was that perhaps we should have second reading this evening, if my honourable friend wants to read them over the supper hour. or else we cou·ld proceed with them now. It's a matter which I leave to him to suggest. MR. MOLGAT: Well, we'd certainly like to have some time to have a look atthem. I was just wondel,'ing, is there some .reason why thestJ were he.ld until this time? . MR.

ROBLIN: Yes, they. traditionally can•t.come in until the Ways and Means Commitr tee has·been disposed of. • MR-. CHAIRMAN: Resolution pa.ssed. The second resolut.ion before tbe Committee. MR. ·R(.)HLIN:. The second resolution is one tbat we are passing largely at the request of the Federal Government because it deals with the. allowanc� for- taxes paid in.foreign coun tries by,Manitoba' corporations., Under the·present arrangements; this does not affect our own tax position here in Manitoba, but :it does give a benefit to the Manitoba corporations wbo can , now claim the credit for taxes paid in foreign lands.

This is already being done in some, of the other provinces, and if we don't do it it will place our taxpayers at .a disadvantage and. we•,re .doing .it.to .'keep .in .Line:with them and at the request of. the Federal, Legislature. but it does not it'eally .affect ou:r own tax,positioi). here at all. I reg ard_this. as .. a procedural amend- · ment.:·. ,, , . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution pa.ssed? The third resolution before the Committee. MR. ROBLIN: The third resolution before.the 9ommittee, Mr .. Chairman .. deals with Bill 66; wh�l':h the. honoui;able,,ge,ntlemen may have befqre. them now ..

This has quite !J. number of aroendment� to-.The ifobac,cQ, Tax Act and are designed to tncorpp.rate into our Tobacco Tax Act:;t]le.en!o;Tqing sec tions whi�h we find in•the. tobacco tax ac.ts •in _other.. provinces. , At-tbe present time, we find that our present Tax Act is incomplete as jt, does notrallow �s to:go. in and.J'lhec.k over a. man's hooks and see whether:he1s paid his tax or whether: he hasn't, in, t)le

2642 May 11th. 1965 (MR. RUBLIN cont1d. ) ..... way that we should do to ad minister the Act properly. 's o these amendments - the re's quite a few of them, they take up five pages in the bill - are des igned to import into our Tobacco Tax Act the same enforcement provisions which we find in simi lar legislation elsewhere. , MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, is this vindication of the information that was forwarded to me and I in turn drew it to the attention of the Provincial Treasurer, that there may have been - or the information I received that there was a certain amount of possible tax evasion going on in respect to cigarettes and these vile things ...... . MR. RUBLIN: This will help us to take care of that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution passed. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. IN SE SSION MR. CHAIRMAN: M:ldam Speaker, the Committee has adopted certain resolutions and has instructed nie to report same and ask leave to sit again. MR. JAMES CUWAN, Q.

C. (Winnipeg Centre): Madam Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Pembina, that the report of the committee be received. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. RUBLIN introduced Bill No. 2,

an Act to amend The Revenue Act (1964); Bill No. 40,

an Act to amend The Income Tax Act (Manitoba) 1962 ; Bill No. 66., an Actto amend The Tobacco Tax Act. · . MR. ROBLIN, by le ave, presented Bill No. 2,

an Act to amend The Revenue Act (1964) , for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion . MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, under the circumstances I hil.Ve no alternative but to ask that the debate be adjourned so that we can have a look at these bills during the recess. MR. ROBLIN: I just wonder if there is any further explanation, before we adjourn, that I might make on the bill, that I might make to help my honourable friends to ;!Onside .r. Are there any questions arising? The amend ments to

Part I which cover electriclty, telephone service, natural g(l.s , coal and steam, are procedural and intended to cover certain special cases which may arise other than normal transactions. The amendments to

Part II repeal the land transfer tax. The amend ments to

Part X, which is the school tax rebate part, are also procedural and deal with

definitions . "Par�el" is redefined to make 'it clear tha:t the definition covers each entry in the real property tax roll as a separate item, but excludes property subject to special assessment. It is not considered reasonable that these taxpayers who are assessed at much be low the normal level in re lation to actual value , should receive this benefit, especially as they are assessed as individual parcels in ea:ch school division through which they pass. The level of assessment of railway rights..:of-way , covered by the Subsections (3) and (4) of

Section 1003 of The Municipal Act, are assessed at between 5 and 18 percent of actuaL value . The average level of real property in Manitoba is 43 per�ent of average value . The properties of the Telephone and the Hydro do not come under Clause 3 of the amend ment, as they pay grants in lieu of taxes and do not qualify as taxpayers under the Act. . The definition of ta.Xpayer has been broadened to include occupiers ofland who under the Municipai Act are responsible for the payment o'f taxes, such as rentees of Crown property . The definition also clarifies the status of property held in more than one riaine. MR.

MOLGAT: M3.dam Speaker, I wonder if I may ask a question; Would it be possible to get a copy of the statement that was read by the First Minister? If that were poSs ible, it would speed up the study of the bill. MR. ROBLIN: .. •... use my statement. . . MR. MOLGAT: Fine . The either question I would have , Madam Speaker;' is with regard to the last point that the Minister brought up, that Is the occupier of the . land . . . Did I under.:. stand correctly that someone who leases Crown land would be entitled to the s�h�ol tax rebate on that lease? .· · . · ' · · MR. ROBLIN: ..... paying municipal ta.Xes. MR.

MOLGAT : If he's paying municipal taxes. Now.· what about the situation that has arisen. for example, in the City of Transcona, where there are people who are leasing< lahd on which their home is. situ�ted, but not from the Crown. They are leasi�g ft froin a corpora- tion. Wiil they be entitled to the rebate directly '? . . . · . • · . . . . . . . · MR. ROBLIN: Well if my honourable friend will look at

Section '4 (� oHhe new Act. he '·,

May 11th, 1965 26 43 ' (MR. ROBLIN cont'd) ..... will find the details set out there and I think it covers some of those borderline cases. MR. MOLGAT: I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakes ide . that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem':Jer for St. John's. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK (St. John 's) : Well, Madam Speaker. the Premier invited us to ask questions in order to fa cilitate this matter, so I just wanted the opportunity before the motion was heard.

I am wondering if the Premier could indicate to us whether there's any ap peal provision in the Act itsalf dealing with the Minister 's ruling in the proposed first portion of the amending Act, ..... here the Minister is given the power to deem a purchase price. and I would like -- MR. ROBLIN: If my memory serves me - if I may answer the question - if my memory serves me , I think it will be found that in the original Act where there is dispute as to value . it can be referred to the courts. MR. CHERNIACK: Well then I'll look for that, Madam Speaker.

Secondl y . there was in the third portion, there was the addition of the words "real property". I presume that migbt be for clarification. I don't think tha:t was really dealt with, but I am wonde ring if it could be - at a later date . I do n't ask for the answer now. And a fuller deve lopment of just what is meant by the addition of the phrase dealing with occupier of a parcel. Would that be limited only to Crown owned lands or could it be anybody who is the occupier and by his lease becomes obligated to pay the taxes ? MR. ROBLIN: .•..... covered in the wording. MR.

PAULLEY: One qllestion, Madam Speaker, on that very point. The Lea der of the Liberals raised the question as to leasehold occupiers in Transcona. I was going to raise a simila r question, but as I read it - and I must say that it'll be subject to study during the re cess - but as far as I'm aware, that on the assessment roll of the municipality, the land is still in the name of the land holder - the real property rather than the occupier under the leasehold agreement.

And if my information is correct, that as far as the leaseholder is concerned in Transcona the assessment for the taxes is figuratively paid in the monthly payments to the de veloper, rather than their name being entered into the municipal tax roll as an occupier. So I think maybe over the recess the Honourable the Provincial Treasurer might look at that aspect as well.

But offhand, this appears to me to be the situation insofar as those under leasehold agreement in Transcona, that their names are not entered on the assessment rolls and it does seem to me , from the Minister's statement, that this is the situation that they want to cover. So it may be necessary for some ..... MR. RO BLIN: ....... assessment roll. · MR. PAULLEY: Yes, on this, and I'm not sure , Mr. Minister, if that is so. I will en deavour to find it out from my municipal office during the recess. MADAM SPEA KER : The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I was moving the adjournment, seconded by the Honour able the Member for Lakesid e. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote decla red the motion car- ried. MR. ROBLIN, by leave, presented Bill No. 40,

an Act to aniend The Income Tax Act (Manitoba) 1962 , for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, there 's really nothing I can add to the explanation I g;�.ve at committee. This is a procedural amend ment, as far as we're concerned. MR. D. L. CAMPBEL L (Lakesid e): Madrun Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able the Member for Selkirk, 'that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice v·ote decla red the motion carried. MR. RUBL IN, by leave ,· presented Bill No. 66 ,

an Act'to aniend The Tobacco Tax Act, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. T. P. HI LLHO USE , Q. C. (Selkirk): ... ... the Minister intends to :rhake a more lengthy statement in connection. . . . . . . MR. RUBLIN: Yes, I'll be glad to give some more information about this, Madam Speaker. It is prop<Jsed that power be granted for the making of an estimate' of'the tax pay ab le where n:o

2644 M�y l,lth. 1965 (MR. ROBLJ:N. qont'd) •...•. ret,urnis filed or whe.re records to not substantiate i return, &.nd for the making of an assessment for tax where an audit discloses an insufficiency of tax. These powers. of estiinate and a,ssess;ment are. standard in the case of many revenue st<ttutes)n other provinces and in federal legislation . In the proposed amendme nt,t0 the Act, ample provision for appeal against estimates and assessments by c-itizen& to the courts is .c ontemplated.

The present law provides a minimum fine of $� 5. 00 for. any .conviction, It is proposed to bring this into closer line with the Gasolin.e Tax Act py providing a minimum fine for second or subsequent conviction of $10 0. 00. We .also propose that a, tim�;J[hn it o� sixy ears be provided for prosecutions under the Act. except that in the case .offalse dec larations or false returns, no time Limit wou Id apply. This follows the practice in other provinces. At the present the Act permits the entry and search without war rant of any premises other. than a private dwell ing for the purposes of tax enforcement.

It is proposed that this po:wer .be extended to trucks and other vehicles so that the shipment of tobac co through unusual channels or in unusual hands may be ascertained more easily. It is not the intention -to search private automobiles for casual purchases of toba,cco. From time to time where other methods of obtaining tax compliance may not be effective, prosecution . for .w ilful tax evasion may be contemplated. In order to protect the. destruction of evid ence t(la,t would substantiate the case for the.

Crown. the se.izure of the evidence may be necessary. · Acco.rdingly ;. it is prqposed that the Pr.ovinc ial Treasurer be empowered to au thorize .s�ci fic persons in speqific instances to seize records. or other pertinent evidence or to. make photographic copies thereof. This po.wer is simila r to the power already granted by_ the Legis lature under the Income Tax Act, (Manicoba) 1962. There !j.re ,a number o.f minor amendments that clarify c. ertain

definitions and what not, but are . of no real co.nsequence in the Act. MR. HILLHOl)SE: Wo\lld the honourable the First Minister be willing to give me a copy of that st<tte.ment. MR. ROBLIN : !w ould be glad to. Madam Chairman, but I would ask my honou rable friend, as I asked. the Leader of the Oppo.sition, to let me have them back,in the co.urse of the debate so that I may have these in front o.f me when I'm listening to. their comments. MR. HILLHO USE: 1Vladam, I wish to mo.ve, seconded by the Honourable. Member for Lakeside that the deba,te be adjourn ed.

MADAM SPEA KER presenteq the motion a,nd after a voice vote declared the motion carri,ed. MR. RUBLIN: M&.dam Spaaker, I propose that we should now proceed with the rest of the Order Paper, starting on the second reading, the adjourned deb ate on the Second Reading o.f Bill 112 and the amendment thereto. MADAM SPEA KER .: The adj o\lrned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 112 . and the proposed motion in amendment theret.o by the HonourabJe the Member for Swan River. I have had this motion under consideration.

The. proposed amendment of the Honourable the Mem ber for Swan River. is a resolution. de,c laratory of a principle .d_if fering fro.m the principle of the bill and expresses an o.pinion as to its prosecution. Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and For:rns, 4th Edition . �958 ,: citation 382 states: "That it is competent for a member who desires to place on record any special reasons for not agreeing to the second reading of a bill, to move an amendment to the question by.:way. o.f areso lution de claratory of some princip_le or express ing an opinion as to its prosecution.

" Sir Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice, 17th Editiop, at Page 526 refers to reasoned amendment as follows: "It i� cq:rnpetent fo.r a member who desires to place on record any. special reason for not .agreEJing to the secon,d reading ofa bill , to move what Is known a1;1 � reasoned �endme11t .• . J'his amendment i.s to le.ave out all• the words in the main question after the word ,that' and to add other words . ap.d the question proposed upon. the aJl!.endmen.t is. that the wordp pr<>posed; to be left Ol,lt e:taond part ofthe Q\lestion. " J'his procedur� has been in yoked in this Hol!se on other occasions .

Examples may be found in the Journals of 1959. the first session oft)le 26-th Legisj:at,ure.,- . .at Page .1 56, . and th� Jo�.trnalsof 1960,t he secor1d s.�ssiqn of the 26 th Leg islature, on Page 256. In the light of these authorities and our practice. I must r.ule that the. am� ndme nt is in order •. Any . honoura)Jl� memb�.x w&shing to speak m.a,y do so. MR.

AL BERT VIE LFAURE (La Verendr ye) : M_adam Speaker, ' f�st I WOJ.lld like to, say that-!; .am s,urpdsed tp .see thaHhe ·gqyernm,ent has dec iP,ed to·, treat this bi ll the way it has_, I d? qqt ;,u.j;'lpose .thaH WPL! !� .. have. to atapd and , ei'Pl!j.ilj, hqw I woulcJ,vot;e op the .. bill a?·· it, f,ir,sJ Wfl.S

May llt �. 1965 26 45 (MR. VIELFAURE cont'd) ....... introduced. I think my accent and previous statements in this House wou ld lead i.!l:etnbets to believe th at I would supportthis bill in its '()rfginal'form.

How ever, at this time !W ould like to express some of my oWn personal opinions . some of my own personal expt;Ji:iences in life,· which lea d me to think the way I d o � In order to be' understood cle·arly when I ma,ke refe{.ence to the :Province of Quebec in the course of my speech. r·would like to pointOut that !h ave very little blood relations with the people in the Province of Quebec: My fathe-r was from France. came tot his country at the age of ten. and my mother is from a Belgian father and a mother who came to Manitoba at the age of three.

The point Pm trying to make; 'Madam Speaker,· is that I'm a fu ll- fledged Canadian mid Manitoban. whose mother tongue and culture is French; · · The first thfng I would like to say in speaking on this subject is thatthe • intention of this bill was nof to force anybody whose mother tongue is not French to learn the French language . Al so. !w ould like to say thatl ap preciate very much the efforts beittg made by the Department of Ed ucation to ma.�e it possible for whoever wants to learn French to have·at 'his dispos ition the necessary prograins.

However, I would like to make it clear that as far as I am concerned. this is not the answer to those of us whose mother tongue is French. I want to say that I Was impressed the other day when I-made a tour of the buil ding at 1181 Portage with the Honourable • · the Minister of Edut: ation and some of the leading personalities in his Department. I was very impressed with all the programs · there availah le to people who want to learn French and I was also pleased to s'ee 'that so many of them have made themselves available to these programs.

I think this \vitt contribute very much in improving relations between French-'speaking and English- speaking people in this province. · · And while I'm on this subject, I would like to congratulate the members of this House who can express thenrseltres l.n French. · I ci il me ferait plaisir d'o ffrir �es felicitations premi�rement '3.

Monsieur le Premier Ministre q�i s• exprime tres bien enfrancais, aussi a Monsieur le Ministre de l'Industrie et du Commerce avec qui j'aime toujours a cariser, monsieur le deput e de St- Vital qui nous a deja donne id 'quelques ·courts petits 'disc ours en fram?ais, a monsieur le depute\ de Brokenhead et mon· aill:i monsieur le depute d' E:rherson qui peut �auser assez bien en francais.

ToU.!S ces •gens j'en suis sur sont fiers du fait qu'ils peuvent s'exprimer dans les deux lan�es et nous l'a p precions beaucoup: ·• ( Translation : Here it wou�d give me pleas!Jre to offer congratulations firstly to the First Minister wb,o expresses himse lf very well in French, also to the Minister of Industry and Commerce with whom I .li ke to chat, the m(:1mber for St. Vital who has in. the past given us a few shod -sp eeches in Fr ench, the member for Brokenhead a,nd my friend the me.mber for Emerson who .. can chat quite w;ell in French.

All these people I am sure are proud of the fact that they c. an. exgr!=JSS themselves ifl two languages and we appreciate this very much. ) I sdpp()se one has to speak more than one language to -reall y unders tand the meaning of this bilt · ·· It is not a matter of forcing French on somebody else. It is as far as ·I am concerned, making it' possibiEi for people of French origin to learn their mother tongue in school correctly , a right they had' prior to 1916 . How can one learn his language if the only pl ace he spea:ks it ie at home?

By the same tokim if it is the will ofthe majority ofthe people to see that the French language remains a spoken langu·age; I think it should be permitted to be used as a language of teaching. 'And here lwould like to make it very clear that it is not the id ea to force these schoo[s'Where there 's' only a few French pupils to have the teaching in French. The idea is simply to·give those people who are of French origin the facilities to learn •their language as perfectly as possible . And here I can think of my own personal case as one of a· few-t housand.

I don 1tmind to sey, who learned his French Hlegally in the.o ne-room school. i remember very well when I was in the one- room school, there we were, 100 percent French:..Canadia n. French� Canadian teache:t•; French-C anadian school trustees, arid ·in those da ys we Were not even allowed to have French books in the.s chool. I would Lil�e to . point out again that iUs not a ,matter of learn.ing French inste.ad of English that we are. asking fo�. Even if I put a lot of emphas�s on the lell.:ming of French, . I. �:>hould \1-lso point .out- i;haHtjs p.ot a matter of le,a)ining .on.e against the othe�..

Cer.tain ly in this Manitoba of our.s today ;it would•l;>eoridiculous to think that anybody would W\1-nt that. Even thpugh hn very proud•to -speak;F:rencb_; [!.!ld I want my ch.ildre n to learn .it, aqd . I dpr.'.tthink that. we hiwe all the. facilities, that. \Ye. would like to, have,. Lw ant to say ,that I am proud to be a Man�toban. I am happy·. to 11 ve in; this p�:qvin;ce. and I ail1 certainly npt a sellaratis te,. 1 am trying to evaluate the

2646 May 11th, 1965 (MR. VIE LFA URE cont'd) ....... . the situation in a clear, p:r"actical and unimpas sionate way. Madam Speaker, I am speaking as one who has experienced what I am preaching today. At the age of 20 I was the oldest of a family of nine when my dad died suddenl y and I made it a . point then that I would make myself responsible for the educ ation of my brothers and sisters in both the French and English language. Toda y, I am very proud of my accomplishment because I am convinced that I was successful.

At that time I had three brothers who were still young enough to repeive an educ ation and all three have graduated from St. Boniface College where they were taught mostly in French. all three have graduated with B. A. degrees .. One n,ow hold.s a B. Se . from the University of St. Andrews , Scotland, and I am sure my Scottish friends in this House will be proud to know that one of their universities could teach to a Frenchman from my family , and may I say that he is very proud of his stay at the University of St. Andrews ,and really appreciates his years there. I would now have another brother with a B.

Sc.f rom th,e University of Manitoba had he not been called back. . Madam Speaker, I am not trying to publicize my own family but I want to point out that by receiving an educa tion in the French language such as I've just mentioned, one can continue his studies in an English univers ity and by doing so it permits us to develop ourselves more fully, make us better and more knowledged Canadians to do a better job for our country.

I would like to point out that as far as I am concerned, if the situation does not improve in this province, although it is improving, but it'll have to improve a lot more , it will be practically impossible for us in a few years to have our children .lea rn the French language , and therefore will have to be sent outside of the province, a thing which I would not like to see happen because I don't think this would be a tribute w our.e d ucation system in this province.

One last point that I would like to mltke is that I don't think the members of this House realize the importa11ce that will be attached .to this kind of legislation by the people in the Pro vince of '-i]uebec. Yes, Madam Speaker, there are in Quebec a few separatists, very few; but there are also a great many people who I call level headed people who want this Canada of ours a country where people of diffe rent origins enjQy themselves a life of freedom , a life where they can devel op_ themse lves according to their language and culture.

There are people there who are very interested in seeing that their fellow man who speaks the same language be given the same freedom as they give the English-speak ing minorities in their province. And here I would like to relate a little incident that I lived myself not too long ago. as a matter of fact last fall. I was visiting a brother in the City of Montreal. He had just moved there for about a year and the night that I was there there was a parent teachers meeting at the local school and he did ask me if I would like to attend.

In that school district there is a twenty-four room school which serves about 1, 100 families out of which 100 are English- · speaking and about a thousand are French- speaking. And it so happens that in that school there ·are four classes which are controlled completely by the Eriglish-sp eaking

Section there where they do teach according to their desire in the English language and they have their own teachers and their own inspectors. And that very night when I was at that meeting a spokesman for the group asked that an inspector who had been promoted b:e replaced not within two months as had been suggested but immediate ly because they did not think they should have to, wait, two months. 'well I just relate this to say that when there are charges that people are not getting the, treatment there, it is not always a fact.

I could have stood up that night and made .quite a speech trying to say that we as a minority in this province were not getting this kind of treatment but in. order, being afraid of getting the wrong publicity I did not. The members of this House I am sure do not realize how this bill is important if we are interested in unity in this country . I cannot em, phasize enough the point that it is not a matter of trying to. force French on anybody else, iUs a matter of us trying to learn our language better, to speak it better and write it mo;re correct ly and therefore making us better citizens. MR. JOHN P.

TANCHAK (Emerson): Madam Speaker, j' appr;�ie beaucoup le� voeux exprimes en francais par mon collegue de La Verendr ye . . 1 (Translation: Madam Speaker, Iver y much appreciate the sentiments expressed in · French by my colleague from La Verendcye .) ,, ' , That's the extent that I'll go to. I have had the privilege and honour of learning French• in Provencher. School here in St. Boniface, right through high school. !would like to be more ·· conversant, more fluent in the French and !s till do hope that some time in the 'future. I will be able to accomplish this.

I do not want to proceed any further in French because 'it is·a beau tiful language and I'm afraid that with my ability or my pronunciation I mi.ght just murder ·the language. Therefore I'll say the few words that I have to say in English.

l\lay 1Hh. 1965 · 26 47 (MR. T ANCHAK cont'd) ...... . I did mention that I learned some French and I can still read it and und erstand the books, in Provencher School. But I regret that in this school at the time when we did study French there was not enough conversational French, !would say that if our schools . there was one more school that I had attended French too in Grade 9 besides Provencher. if we would have had con versational French. or if we would have had this language taught in the French tongue at the time I'm sure that I would have been much better in French than I am at the present time .

I for one, cannot see any harm if some of the subjects were taught in the French language in some of the schools where this action is justified. where the majority would wish. I see no harm whatsoever and I would say that the amendment as it was proposed in the first place was one that I would have been able to support. I realize that this country is not a homogeneous one, that this country of ours is - we have people from every race and every country in the world who are trying to work together to make our country a great Canada.

We have recognized the c::>ntribution of all these people . just as we recognize that there must be partnership be tween the founding races of our nation, and I for one accept this as the foundation for unity in Canada, as I mentioned before, unity and diversity. more than just two. and in this spirit of co-opera tion I believe that we would be able to work out our diffic ulties.

It seems to me that if we took the attitude , not the se !fish one , took the attitude that we do to others as others would like us to do to them:, and we took the attitude that this is not going to cause disunity, we took the attitude that we live and let other people live and build up this great province and this great nation of ours , that we'll go ahead not as two or three or four Canadas but as one . strong united nation. MR.

SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, there are those who will say that this bill before us is a controversial one and I believe that it is ; but I don't think that it's our duty to avoid con troversy; in fact I think it is our duty to engage in controversy if something important is in volved. I may say too at the outset that I represent a constituency which I believe -· and I don 't think there is any particular distinction - which does not contain to my knowledge one family of French:-speaking Canadia ns. I support the bill , Madam Speaker. And why do I?

For a very simple reason, it's because as I have watched and read what has been transpiring in our coun try in the past five years I have come to the conclusion that this bill will if implementedbe one of the things, one of the many things that can be done to settle much of the unrest and help maintain unity in our coun try. I think as all members here I love my country.

I'm a Manitoban, but I consider myself first a Canadian and it surely must distress members here to see the prolonged disen chantment and diss atisfaction on the part of many people in our country - and with some justification I must say -b ecause many of them have come to the opinion if not the conclusion, at least the opinion, that many of their rights which they thought they enjoyed under the constitution seemed to be vaporizing, seemed to be of insufficient substance. - I'm referring to the French Canadia ns, particularly in Quebec, but outside Quebec as well.

That the BNA Act, our constitution, did provide certain fundamental guarantees of minority rights back in 1867 . The rights may not have been openl y broached or abrogated but in the interval between then and now, the rights of French Canadians in our country have seemed to become diss ipated slightly year by year. And we must not think of the minority right provision of the BNA Act · as applying only to the French Canadians in Quebec. They are, I am convinced that the spirit of the BNA Act in those regards , with regard to

section 93 and 133, are intended to apply to the minority all across Canada. I beli eve that this bill is seeking simply to restore a rig ht that· was once enjoyed here in this province, but which was, for whatever reasons which we needn't go into now, abrogated and taken away back in 188 8, 1890, and at that time I believe that that action was wrong and I think that now in 1965 it is not too late to show, that no matter how long the lapse of time we are prepared to res tore at least some of this right once faken away.

Now some will say but the proportion of the French-spea king element in this province is too small to warrant this kind of provision.

I would point out that when the French language rights were taken away in Manitoba in the '1890 the French-sp eaking element was precisely the same proportion as is the English-spea king minority in Quebec toda y , and yet there is no thought whatsoever on the part of the people , the Government of Quebec to abrogate or rather to take away or deny these langU.age rights because these rights are provided for in the consti- · tutiqn and they intend to honour the constitution and its spirit.

I suggest that we Should do the same thing here, even though this right was broached at one time' it's not too late to horiour the spirit of The BNA Act and The Manitoba Act which is in a i:;ense our provincial . part of our provincial constitution.

26 48 May 11th. 1965 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ..... . Madam Speaker; it's obvious from what I'm saying that I am a believer not in the com pact theory. of confedera tion, that is to say that the original provinces made a compact, but rather I am a. believer in the compact of two people in confederation and because I believe it was a compact, or intended that way, that we must toda y act as though this compact exists;in fact it does exist. Let us give some substance then to this compact which und erlies Canadian Confederation .

In case some members are rather doubtfu l as to my opinions on the propriety of what was done to the French language rights in this .province way back. I want to quote just one ex- . cerpt from perhaps one of the, perhaps the, certainly one of the five top constitutional lawyers in this country Deai1 Frank Scott of McGill, and he has this to say with regard to the French language provisions in Manitoba, and I quote : "Strangely enough the validity of Manitoba Statute of 1890 abolishing French as an official language in that province was never tested in the courts.

Had it been , I personally do not see how it could be upheld. It has always seemed to me that Manitoba was placed on the same footing as Quebec and that if the Manitoba law of 1890 esta- . bl ishing English as the sole official language was valid. then there is no security for the English language in my province. The abolition of the use of French in the Territories was on a diffe rent footing since it occurred between the creation of the provincial government in Saskatchewan, Alberta, etcetera, etcetera.

So there you have, Madam Speaker, the considered opinion of certainly one. of the top constitutional lawyers of our land and he is firmly of the opinion that this was a wrong which was wrought at the time, and I believe this to be a fact.

I think that we here in Manitoba can r.ow take the initiative to show French Canadians in other parts of ·Canada that we are prepared, because Canada means this much to us , we are prepared to extend to a minority - one of the two founding groups -t o extend to this minority ,the rights which they enjoy in their home province which is the only province that is now the bastion of French Canadian cultur.e. The less we do in other provinces in this regard the more the French Canadians will come to think of Quebec as being their bastion, and naturally that breeds separatist thinking.

There. are some things that the Federal Government can do to show French Canadians good faith and they are doing it - bilingualization in the civil service insofar as it is practical, etcetera, .etcetera.

At the provincial leve I these sort of things we cannot do for practical rea sons, but there are some things we can, and I would like to read to you , Madam Speaker, some of the suggestions that I put to an audience that I was speaking to in January , a University Con ference on the two nation theory, and I said this: "The Federal Government can carry out bi lingualiz ation more pervasively than it is at the present; it can go beyond parliame ntary re cords , menus and wine lists; beyond court pleadings and issuings." The Federal Government must carry bil ingualization more pervasively into the Civil Service as to recruitment and promotion policy.

There are certain obvious practical limita tions naturally . I mean here, the. entire public ad ministration not just the civil servant per se. Second, the opportunity must be provided for public servants to learn French or En glish as part of their in-se rvice training. This is being done too now, Madam Speaker. They have mo bil e vans, language laboratory mobile vans; so the Federal Government is starting to move in what I consider to be the right direction. Now (

b) Provincial governments; 1. Provincial governments can be persuaded to acknow ledge two language groups as having some sort of constitutional parity. Hopefully they could be persuaded to allow the use of French as a language of instruction in school districts where the French Canadian population is. of significant size. This would not preclude English speaking students from attending such schools. nor need it impede the current intensification of the teaching of French in our. Western Canadian schools : that is to say, those in non-Fr ench speak ing areas. And. this is the point I am coming to, Madam Speaker.

If we were to show even the s-lightest inclination to move in this direction it would be . it should be and it would be in terpreted as

an act of good faith on our part by the Freneh Canadians in Quebec. If it can be shown that one or two provinces some dis tance removed from the bastion were prepared to ex tend more graceful consid eration of their linguistic and cultural rights it would, perhaps more than: anything else, he.lp to break down separatist thinking because it would put the lie to the talk that is current in Queqec that the other provinces really don't care, thati t's only here in Quebec that we can hope to maintain and protect our culture . etcetera.

If we show them other wise. separatist thinking will be curtailed and eventually cease .. So. Madam Speaker, for all these reasons I c:Lo not find it diffi cult r.eally to support this

May 11th, 1965 26 49 (MR. . SCHBEYE I!· cont'd) ..... '.; bill. Now then .of course we have the amendment before us, which advocates that this should not be proceeded with but rather that it should be heLd in abey ance until we have a chance to.look.at national policy and to look at the particular circumstances oLour .own province .. .Madam Speaker,, !.have no intention at all of being unkind to the authors of this amendment but I suggest that surely by now we know in what direction national policy is trending in this regard, and surely by now we know the particu lar circumstances of pur own province.

And· I suggest, .and !.don't know if the mover of this bill, the Hono11rable Member for St. Boniface, I don't know if he had this in mind at all but it seems to.me that thebill really while; quite stark .and simple., I have the impression that the mover has in mind that .this would only apply to those districts where the French speaking families;, the population, is of substantial. size, That being so, :and with that reservation and that reservation only, I sup port the bill. I support the bill without any reservations other than that.

Now then it.could be said that if we wel'e to proceed with this that it would ;:ea lly be doing a disservice· to the French, to the students of French parents , because then they would .lose on their learning. of.English and that they need English in order to prepare themselves for life after school, for the business world and so on. I certainly concur with that view but it seems to me that if. French were .allowed as a language of instruction, that it would be up to the local boards and the parents etcetera to work out the ratio and proportion.

It .need not be sugge!>ted that French will be use.d as the language of instruction right from Grade 1 through to 12 without any instruction in English. It's all a matter of bala nce, Madam Speaker, and I think it must be said that some instruction periods must be. allowed in the French language,. otherwise the stu dents will lose the language ... They ca nnot get it from one period a day, learning French as a subject onto itself. The members here surely must have received this brochure by Tim Creary of Southam News where he ·gives some interesting

interpretation and data on the status of. the French language;ip, Manitoba and they are suffering from the problem of dissipation and drain age, you might say, of the language and it ca nnot, this problem ca nnot be met in any way, in my opinion,; except py allowing it as a language of instruction at least a significant part of.the time. These details can be worked out later. Unlike my frJends to my right, I believe details can be worked out. I don •t filibuster on a pi,ll if I agree ip, princ iple .with it, I support it whatever the consequence.

I may say that there is [lo particular political motivation pushing me. with regard to this bill as members ca n obviously see, s.o if nothing.else I would hope that members here would take my comments on this bill as being the result of my own conviction in the matter and not because I hope to win votes nomewhere, because this is the sort of thing that really need not be partisan at all, It involves the broadest question of national unity, national goals, and restoration of rights under the Constitution.

So with those remarks, Madam Speaker , I wish to indicate that ! will oppose the amendment and support the bill. MR� . . CHERNIACK: Madam Speaker, I resolved at the very beginning not to involve my self in a debate at this stage of the session where we are all getting ready to cl ose up and go about ·our ways, and I was prompted to make a few comme[lts mainly because of. what the Ho!J.ourable Member from Brokenhead had to say that one should not avoid matters that are controversial, one should face up to them.

Well I realize of.course this is a controversial measure and I must say that I have · grave doubts as to whether the solution is so apparent be fore us. I believe. that bringing this .matter in at the tail-end of the session makes it impossible to deal with it in the proper conte,xt and in the proper light, and I'm not sure whether this Legislative Assembly is the place where on should deal with a matter like this, s.epa rate and apart from all the other factors which influence the attempts at solutions to a major problem which was indicated by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead.

I am sure that he does not suggest• that the institution of French as a language of instruction will go very far in doing more than, as he put it. evidence of good faith. I have other thoughts, or fears rather, about this which .I would like to explore much more and I really don't feetl.that we have given this matter the prQper airing in this.

Chamber on the. bas.�s of which we shouJd c.ome to. a conclusion, and although I am not enthusiastic about the wordip,g of tbe resolution, and the. weight given to the reasons for postponement, yet I am bound ,to say that the end portion of it, dealing as. it does with mentioning national policy de ci sions now under review in this field, is. something which I do think demands consideration which would not be. limi.ted to one. afternoon or even one week. I 111ust say, .

Madam Speaker, that I don't have quite as much feeling .as does my colleague from Brokel:}head that ·cQnstitutional rights and historical rights are always those which must be

265 0 May 11th. 1965 (MR. CHE RNIACK, cont'd) ... ..... accepted for all time. I don 't have his background in history but I do have the feeling that the importance of the study of history is that one learns from history, one learns of what was done .in the past and the factors that affect it, the decisions that were made then. One must have a full knowledge of history and be guided by the conclusions one reaches from what history teaches.

But history alone shouid not determine our dec isions , which must always be made in the light of changing circumstances, in the light of various fac tors and the factors that have changed since the historical perio d of which my · learned - my honoured colleague speaks, are so diffe rent, and there is such an impact. I do n't for a mo ment, in changing the term from "learned" to "honoured" does not mean that I do not consider him learned.

I honour him for his learning and I honour him for other reasons . --(I nterjection) -- He feels that I am beating this a little too strongly so that possibly I should move back to my subject. Madam Speaker, to me language is a method of communication and really not much more , and when I say it's a method of communication and not much more , I think that's an awful lot.

The ability to communicate, one with the other, is the most important aspect of civilized life and of social behaviour and that ability to communicate must be one that is .made available to all with the ::.,rreatest possible facility, but communication in itself is what is important in our social lives , and just language for language sake, if it does not with it carry communication is, I think, a rather empty thing. Through language we can communicate backgrounds , we can transmit cultural heritages, we can transmit traditions and id eologi es.

And I know that a knowledg e of a language facilitates this mt;Jthod oftransmissio n from one generation to another and, what is probably more important, from one generation to another generation of the same age but yet of a diffe rent background. So that I think it is not enough just to transmit cultural historical traditional backgrounds of one people to its own people , but rather to all members of our Canadian society. I have had the opportunity to, as a benefit and the advantage of ac quiring a knowledge of cultures , traditio ns , histories of other peoples - my own people.

I have learned through tlie Yiddish language more than through any other means and therefore I have learned to appreciate the value of a knowledge and a facility in a language. But unless I am able to communicate my knowledge and my learning tci people who do not have the opportunity to use this means of communication, the Yiddish language, if I can't trans mit it to them then I am stultifying or lessening the contribution which I can make to my society and if I stick only to the Yiddish language then I don 't think I am doing too much in my contribu tion to my society.

During the war I had the benefit of le arning a great deal about the traditions , the history, the background, the culture of the Japanese people . It was made possible to me through the study of the Japanese language. Through that I learned a great deal which my fellow Canadians have not had an opportunity to learn. Unless I am able to transmit what I learned about that background to my fellow Canadians , then I remain with the knowledge ; I do not benefit my neighbours .

So that I feel again, that just to recognize a language as a course of instruction without facilitating all these methods of communication one to the other, is I think not enough and yet it is of course vital that people who have that French language keep it, maintain it, strengthen it. But I'm not sure that this is the solution and I don 't pretend there. is a solution. .But I do not think that this itself is the problem. We heard the Hooourable Member for Emerson speak on the importance of the Ukrainian language and the need to keep it as a live language and to keep it available.

To be consistent with what he said then and what he said today , then we should in the foreseeable future be considering the question of Ukrainian as becoming a teach ing language in the province and the only argument I think that there. would be against it!, as compared to the French language, is the history of. the constitutional question. And J. don 't think that's enough in our changing society today .

I think that we must look at our problem which was touched on today in terms of the: social barriers; and not just the language barriers ; iri terms of the economic bar'r'iers that exist between peoples in this province; in terms of the geographic barriers that exist in this province; the prejudices that exist, and I am afraid that by rejecting this resolution, this amend ment, and ·by passing the bill, we might pretend that we are solving a problem; but I don't think we are getting anywhere near dealing with the problem as such; So that I think, and I am now taking a leaf out of the book oft he Liberals. who have >spoken : the last few da ys, in·tefms of study· and review, that tliis ·is a matter which doe's require· study and 'review.

And I do not have too much faith that theBiculturalH�m·a O:dBilingualism·

M:Ly 11th. 1965 2651 (MR. CHERN IACK cout'd) •....... Commis sion is going to solve the problem but at least by studying it, by varying it, by reviewing it, the problem will be considered by so many people that that in itself is important. The mere discuss ion is important-because it too. is a manner of communication and I think we should do all possible to continue this form of "dial ogue" as it is often called, to continue to explore the problem and the proposed means of dealing with the problem and not feel that we are accomplishing very much by dealing with this problem separate and apart from the others.

MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote de clared the motion carried, MR. LA URENT DESJARD INS (St. Boniface) : Ayes and Nays please . Madam St=Jeaker. MADAM SPEA KER : Call in the Members . The question before the House, the proposed motion in amend ment thereto by the Honourable the Member for Swan River. A standing vote was taken, the result being as follows : YEAS: Messrs: Baizley. Beard, Bilton. Bjornson, Carrell, Cherniack, Cowan, Evans. Groves, Hamilton, Harris, Harrison, Jeannotte, Johnson, Klym, Lissaman, Lyon . McDonald. McKellar, McL ean, Martin, Mills, Moeller, Peters . Smellie , Stanes.

Steinkopf. Strickland . Weir, Witney. Wright and Mrs. Morris on. NAYS : Messrs: Barkman. Campbell, Desjardins , Gray, Guttormson. Hi llhouse. Johnston, Molgat, Patrick, Schreyer, Shoemaker, Smerchanski, Tanchak, Vielfaure. MR . CL ERK: Yeas, 32; Nays , 14. MADAM SPEAK ER : I decla re the motion carried. The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 112 as amende d. Are you ready for the question ? MR. DESJARDI NS: Madam Speaker, in closing the debate ; first of all I'd like to make a statement that might help my honourable friend from St. John's.

This proposed bill of mine was turned over to the Legis lative Counsel during the second week of this session .. approxi mately 10 weeks ago. The first reading took place on March 31st. The bill was printed ap proximately on April 20th. The second reading took place on April 27th. It was called on May 6th, It didn't stand - it wasn't asked to stand at any time; and no answer of cou-rse is provided for the speech, that is, about a week ago. At this time it was amended by the Honourable Member from Swan River and he was the only member of the government side to speak.

He made it quite clear that the French language had no right in Manitoba and the member of the government applauded him. As the honourable member was the only one to speak, the backbencher that spoke was the only one to speak, and as the First Minister, as well as the Minister of Education, the Member from Rupertsland, all joined the other mem bers of their party in applauding his rema rks - therefore approving what he had said - I think th9.t the views of the government were quite clear.

I felt that in something as important as this we would at least have a few words from either the First Minister, who by the way is still not in his seat - he do esn't want to vote on this - and the Minister of Education. I thought would have something to say on this. I think that this is vitally important and maybe some of the other members - one or two of the other members from the other side .

Well, Madam Speaker, I guess that I should consider that I've been put in my place, The authoritative tone of the Honourable Member from Swan Ri ver, when he made his amend ment, the great joy, the pleasure , the gleam displa yed by the Leader of this House, when you read the amendment the other night, and I was left standing not even with the usual copy of the amendment, to hide my shame and my embarrassment, certainly would indicate that I have been put in my place.

Well, Madam Speaker, I was gullible enough to think that this bill would receive fair consideration, I was innocent enough to believe in the sincerity of the First Minister of this Province - when he was speaking in Montreal and in Quebec - in enunciating all these beautiful words of friendship and recognition of the two founding races of Canada. I believe that the newspaper had quoted the Provincial Secretary correctly - I'm referring to the Free Press of November 15th, 1963, and I quote: " ' There can be no split personality or birthday cake for Canada's centennary ce lelra tion in 1967 .

The question of French Canada's culture and language must bl;:l settled first', Honourable Maitland Steinkopf, Provincial Secretary and Minister of Pub lie Utilities said Thur sda y.

He added that he was certain the Fathers of Confederation intended to guarantee the right to instruction in the French language to all French Canadians in all provinces, " andiw ould like to read this again, Madam Speaker: "He added that he y.ras certain the Fathers of Confederation ·intended to guarantee the right to instruction in the French language , to all French Canadians in all provinces, not just Quebec, 'The French language is the key to the survival of the French Canadian culture. The rig ht to it was secured a quarter

26 52 May 11th. 1965 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ...... century before Confederation , ' Mr. Steinkopf contended . . 'And the cl ear intent of the .Fathers of Confederation was mis laid when education was estab lished under provincial jurisdiction; because education is a provincial matter under The BNA Act, Manitoba is tackling· the problem in addition to the work of the Royal Commission. 1 " In addition to the work of the Royal Commiss ion -- and this was quoted in 1963. Well; I think that it is cl ear now that this was only political talk.

In the se days of a few years ago. well the ·F irst Minister was speaking in Quebec. Well then, I think it's fair to say that it was considered that he had a fair chance to become the national lea der of the Conserva tive party and, of course; to get anywhere he needed the people of Quebec . But now this is all changed.

We coul d see that he cooled off a bit on the French sit uation , even from the opening day of this sessi on, when my friend the Honourable Leader of the Opposition expre ssed dis pleasure that the work of the extremists in Quebec was falling. there was a sl y remark from across there , sl apping Quebec down ·a little bit, reminding them of -- this is of the Queen - this was all Quebec - not jus,; a few. And then there. were -- even in other debates they were linked of what about what's going on in Montreal and so on - to show. to try to show.

Well, the fiasco that he has. made of the sessi on I think would indic ate that his chances are as good as a snowball in the sun. I guess he thought then that soon he would have to be contented to st ay home and col!ect the fat pension, and .maybe vacatiou. in Jamaica - in other words , pla y the fiddle while these people of Manitoba were paying this tax heat. So why worry? Why worry? Now I thought that the Province of Manitoba had a chance to do something to prese rve Confederation. I feel that intentl y or not, in my feeli ng anyway, the Honourabl e Member from St .

John's made a separatist speech today; this is all it is , when the people -m aybe this is what he be li eves - maybe separatist is not so wrong. Not too long ago when the Leader of the Opposition in Quebec stated that from now on all the teaching would be done in French - take it away from the En glish people - all across the country , all across country we heard all kinds of cries of injustice and so on, Now we've been talking today about - well his tory and tradition and so on, but I thought that we were talking about rights . I tried to keep this on a high pla ne - this debate.

I ai:n often accused of not keeping things on a high pl ane, esp ecially by my honour able friend the Minister of Mines and Natural Reso urces. who of course is a genius at keeping things ori the highest possibl e pla ne . MR. LYON : It's impossible , when you're talking. MR. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, my friend found his voice, after two days.

Isn't it wonderful? --(Interjecti on) -- Well, what. was I to .expect from a government that showed so little le adership, so little courage; from a government that voted as one in the reso lution here asking that we expla in what Confederation was - an amendment that took nothing away from their resolution. And they voted as one. This was not a partisa n motion at al l. All the mem bers on this side voted, thought it was a good idea to add something to this - I'm referring to the debate on citizenship now - to add something so that the people would have a chance to un ders tand what Confederation means .

Well what was I to expect from a government such as this one ? We ll, the Honourable Member that made this amendment told us in no uncertain terms that Co nfederation had not made this country a bili ngual one . As far as The BNA Act, The Manitoba Act - well I imagine they are only figments of my imagination - he hasn't men tioned these at all. And mind you, this was the government speaker. We asked -- what was I asking ? Did anything I do -- was it political in any way? Did I make it difficult for the government ? This is something that has been asked for years .

I wonder what the Minister of Educ ation will tell these people , or the First Minister, when he hasn't had the interest, to say one word in this debate . Well, what were we asking? To spend money ? No . Madam Speaker. To force something on somebody el se ? No , l\Iadam Speaker. We were asking to rectify a wrong and to recognize a right, to which my honourable friends across from me had given lip service ever since their el ection. HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of We lfare ) (The Pas) : More than lip ser vice . my friend. MR. DESJARDINS: More than lip service . my friend. I say. rectify a wrong; recognize a right.

They're turning it down, and he says. "More than lip service , my friend. " I don't dare say anything to him, because .I'll be told that he was misquoted. Now, what did this do? Some member mentioned -- could we have a little order plea se. Madam Speaker ? MADAM SPEAKER: . . . .. . . . St. Boniface has the floor. MB. DESJARDINS: Thanks very much. If he wants to spea k, Madam Speaker, I don't

26 53 · (MR. DES.JARDINS.cont 'd). , ... , mind.giving him a chance -, I'l l go on closi ng .th� debate , but while Vm on my fe.et I wish he'd refrain. · . · Well I was asking that a right that was recognized - that I thought anyway, in my gulli ble way - I felt .that these people .on their own, where they had enougp to be ahle to do this , would be able to learn. in their :r;nother. tongue and one of the officiaL, I thought , official languages of the country. This did not hurt anybody. If the government felt that maybe we were going too far --)he re were a lot of ru;nendments - I didn't try to bring them down.

ThE:lY should have maybe said. "Well let's try it; le t's try it a bit like Ontario; let's have .maybe certain languages. '' Theree0ul d have been an amendment in. committee. They. could have.sa id. "We ll. maybe in certain grades, le t's try. " No. How dared I, Madam Speaker, suggest such a thing? Well , I paid for my <J.Udacit;y and my fingers were rapped. We were told that the French had no .r ights - in fact, I am beginning to think that I'm very fortunate to be al lowed to think in French. The .Honourable Member from Swa.q. River talked about Ontario, He sa id .. "And 0(\tario does this.

" I don't know why he me ntioned this . But then. that was it. Then \le reminded us of what they qad done.. Before that he. sa id though, "But beware, don't let those so -:and-sos take over. Beware . Beware of the danger s, " he said. "It remains for us to.be firm and do not allow this .to happen. " These were his words. And they applauded.

I. don't know why. but all of a sudden -- we ha,v.e no rights at al l, but all of a sudden, he reminded. us of, what they had done In French. • But Madam Speaker, he failed to s:ay that I brought in a motion about three or four years .ago; they ma<;Ie a joke of this ·; they used the only French speaking member that they have , to bring in a meaningless amendment but three months after , they pat themselves on the back and say, . '!This is what we did. " Well, it do esn't worry me that much w]lo gets the .credit.

I had stated - I'm sure this was repeated to my honourable friend the Minister of Education - I said.two ye ars ago that if the government wouldn't do anything I would move this resolution. So I gave the.m a,ll the chances in the world, the same as 1 did in other subjects , but wheq peo ple are afraid .to move, I think .it .is. my resp oQ.sibil ity to bring it. Of course , I'm always taking a chance that, it won't. go through if it's not brought in by one of their members. Wel l, who knows, maybe this is the start of something·.

Maybe after sl apping me do"'fi, although they applauded all,tn is ,speech and the .s peech of the Honourable Member from St. Vital on a previous occasion .that discussed . pretty \Vell the same rights , the same people -- well, maybe in a couple of years or maybe il1 a few months we'll have something, so who .::!ares if we achieve something. Well, maybe this is not what he meant, maybe he wanted to show me how the conqueri ng hero could be good and th:row us a few crumbs in this department also. And the members of the government applauded.

My honourable friend said that the people of Manitoba were not ready for this , and they applauded. He tpld us that this is a Canadian problem, not just the Manitoba, but Manitoba was the great province that preached unity. It p:reached unity, ,and he says "wait" -- I don't think he bothered reading the. interim report of the commission on bilingualism and bicultural ism. I think that they've settled this point alrea dy. I don't thinkhe 's bothered. He mentioned Ontario but he said "don't do like Ontario, don't do like Quepec". Now, this is a government that was. progress ive though in this field of unity.

It brought in a great innovation, a flag for the Province of Manitoba all of a sudden - a new flag, a flag that would distract of this. great Canadian flag that we have now, but a fla g that might remind certain groups who were .the conquering heroe s. In other words , a new flag, a new rival to the Canadian flag. MADAM SP,EAKEH: .. ,., Honourable Members , I don't think we should revive the debate that has been settl ed,. the debate on the flag that's been settled in the House. I don't beli eve we .should revive it . at this . time. MR. DESJARDINS: I don't intend.to revive it , Madam Speaker.

Pm just showing that this government who is waiting for the commiss ion of bicu lt�ralism to act, did not seem to wait and show the true. leadership. in providing us with a flag. Take away from me as far as I'm cnncerned.t he Canadian flag, but I'l l leave this the way it is. . . I think that.w� 're supposed to be reminded by the words of thy honourable member that this is a great nation. He told us this was a great nation and we should all be proud of it, but we shoul d be careful.

We must remember that people with names such as Bilton, ):loblin and so on were the ,rea,Lleaders here , were the· only peopl e that had. any rights .I guess. Well. Madam Speaker, if you look . at the . . . . . . MR. LYON: Order ..... on a pointof order, Madam Speaker, the statement. that was just made by :r;ny honourabl e friend is . not correct in .any way. shape or· form --(Interjectio n)- and he should be . asked to retract it � yes. MR. DESJAR DINS: Madam Speaker, there goes my honourable friend again. He sa ys rhy

265 4 May ilth, 1965 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) .•. .. ... st atement is wrong,· so it's supposed to be wrong; I s ay it's right, and I think I'm entitled to give my views just as much as he has his, 'just as much as he has his . - MR. LYON: Order ...... on the point of order, Madam Speaker, my honourable friend is entitled of course to give his views so long as he remains within the rul es. He is not entitled to say that somebody el se said so and so as he tried to imply here. MR.

DESJARDiNS: Madam Speaker, on the point of order. when somebody gets up and sa ys that this is not a bil ingual country, that no rights were given in Confederation for this . it means one thing, that there is only but one official language and that is the English language and this is the point I'm trying to ..... MADAM SPEAKE R : I b elieve the honourable member has been asked to retract his state ment. MR. DESJARDINS: What st atement, Madam Speaker ? Are you asking me to withdraw my st atement ? On what grounds ?

MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member, the Honourable Minister has aske d you to retract your st atement. MR. DESJARDINS: We ll , I'm not, Madam Speaker, withdrawing-- and the statement - I've explained the statement, and the Honourable Minister can get up all he wants a nd try to take aWay from what I'm saying. I made the statement that there' s no such a thing as recogni tion of two founding races, therefore there 's onl y one language that's recognized. Isn't that right, Madam Speaker ? MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member wish to have him retract his state ment ? The Honourable Minister ..... MR.

LYON: The st atement as I heard it, Madam Speaker, on speaking to the point of order, he tried to imply or impute that the Honourable Member from Swan River had said that only people with names such as Bilt on and Roblin had any rights in this country . We all know, Madam Speaker, that that statement was not made at any time by the Honourable Member for Swan River, and I really wish my honourable friend to withdraw that imputation . MR. DESJARDINS: He is misquoting me, Madam Chairman. He has misq uoted me.

I said -- I did not imply -- I sa id if this was his idea because he did not recognize two official languages -- this is what I did. and it's exac tly what I'm standing by and he is misquoting me like he often does, and I do not intend to withdraw what I said. MR. LYON: My honour'able friend now says that he didn't say that ? I'm quite happy to accept that as a withdrawal. MR. DESJARDINS: Well if he would have lis tened, we would have saved fifteen minutes, but he knows it all and he 's trying to detract what I s aid and I' ll explain it again.

I explain that the way my honourable friend spoke when he said that there were no rights in Confederation , when he did not recognize The BNA Act or The Manitoba Act, it meant that there was only one official language and that official language was the one of the people that I mentioned. This is exa ctl y it, ·Madam Speaker, this is the way it was said and this is what I implied, this is what I meant and this is what I mean. Well, Madam Speaker, I have news for you and for the members of this government, my honourable friends . I do not consider mysel f beaten at all. I have faith in the people of Canada.

I've always had faith, I've never lost faith in the people of Canada. the people of Manitoba. I think that they are even lea rning to live with their neighbors and loving them, even their French Canadian neighbors . Mind you, I have completely given up on the leadership of this government. The first few years that I was here I thought we'd get strong leade rship. The leadership that's been shown, espec ially at this sessi on, espec ially these last few days and espec iall y in this de bate where nobody from the government except the backbencher would bring in their policy.

But Madam Speaker, we will find leadership outside of this House. such people as Arch bishop Cla rke of the Anglica n Church; Professor Waines, Judge Lindal , Professor Jaenen, Reve rend Hutton. the members of the Chamber of Commerce . the local newspapers .· and yes. the newspaper from Toronto. It will take time . It will take a li ttle more time than if we have the proper lead ership, the leadership that we're entitled to rece ive here in this House, but I think that eventuall y the rights of people will be recognized.

I say the rights of people , because there 's no more rights of minority and majority , it's rights . This is what we fought for, the rights of majority for the last few days in another debate , and if it 's the right of minorities , the rights are still existing. and I think that one day these rights will be recognized even without the lea dership of this government� and Who knows but maybe some day that '! won't 'even be

I May 11th. 1'965 2655 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ....... cons idered in some circles as a second-class citizen; may- be I'll be the equal of some of the friends across from me who get up and lec ture me on what's right and what's wrong. Madam Speaker, I would suggest to the government that they file the speech of my honour able friend with the Committee on Bilingualism andBiculturalism who will be here next week. I think that this is a cl ear indication ,.)f their policy . If they don't do so . I will see that the com mittee is infvrmed. I will provide. them at my cost.

I voted against the amendment because I felt that it had very little if anything to do with it. It says: "In the opinion of this House having regard to the recent and substantial ext ension in the teaching of the French language in the publ ic school system" but it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about French as a teaching language -- "and the addition of French as a second lanaguage" -- I didn't mean that, I meant French as a language ; I didn't say anything about second. I meant an equal language of instruc tion should be studied in the li ght of national policy decisions.

Now the light cif national policy decision has not been used in other problems that this department has had. They haven't worried about what the other provinces were doing in certain other instances. And even in this. If they look at some of the provinces they'U see what was going on. but I thought that m aybe we'd show a little lead ership. We wouldn't wait tilt we'd be the ninth or tenth province . "In the field and of the particular circumstances in our own provinces. " Well since when does right change circumstances ?

Either we have a right or we haven't a right. and the circumstances don't alter anything unless one lacks courage.

Now, Madam Speaker, I voted against the amendment in protest because I know it's cl ear what the government tried to do, what the government did; they certainly showed their lack of interest but I will vote in favour of the bill as amended, as my motion is out, my bill is out now, is out the window. 1 don't think that the government means to worry too much about these reforms , these -whenever the report comes in . in fact they don't even know that the in terim report is out yet or they would have had something to say on this . So I will vote for this bill but not without too much confidence for the future.

MADAM SPEAKER presen ted the motion and after a voice vote decla red the motion: car- ried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed reso lution of the Honourable the Member for El mwood. The Honourabl e the Leader of the New Democratic Party . MR. PAULLEY: Madam Speaker , I adjourned this debate for my collea gue. the Honour able Member for Seven Oaks . I realized that the motion before the House is still in the name of the Honourable Member for E lmwood, but the member for Seven Oaks did introduce the bill.

I suggest to the House that he , the Member for Seven Oaks , be given the opportunity of cl osing the debate. I trust that this is acceptable and I draw to the attention of the members ofthe House that if this is agreed upon then the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks will in effect be cl osing the debate. MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks is cl osing the debate. Does any other honourable member wish to speak. The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks . MR. ARTHUR WRIGHT (Seven Oaks ): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will try to be brief.

I wish first to thank the other two honourable members who spoke in this debate and I appreciate the remarks they made because they werewell considered, but I just simply cannot agree cum pletel y with them.

The Honourable Member for Selkirk, who possesses quite a knowledge .. of insurance, spoke on the matter and he said, and I quote from his ·s peech -- he said, "If we had compulso ry automobile insurance tomorrow. there. is nothing which would guarantee to us any greater degree of highway safety than we now have, " and I would just say, Madam Speaker, that we do not say that the government auto insurance will guarantee greater highway safety. What it does do however, is it prevents people from being financially ruined as a result of accidents .

Madam Speaker, when an accident takes pla ce, it is the cause of.much mental anguish. I think we underestimate this. When two people have an automobile accident. it's a cause of great - not only the hardship of doing without the vehicl es, ·but the leg al aspect of proving who was at fault and the final settling of the cl aim. The honourable member also said on: Page 181 3 that� "Saskatchewan Government Insur ance policy and the damage to each of these cars is in excess of $200. 00 and each owner has to pay the first $200. 00 himself.

That is something worthy of taking xnto cons ideration when you start to compare the cost of automobile insurance in Manitoba with insurance in Saskatchewan. " But the difference is Madam Speaker, that in Saskatchewan, you can recover from the liable party. because insurmice is paid regardle ss of fault. The honourable member also says on the

2656 May 11th. 1!;)65 (MR. WRK. iT cont1d),., ... , same page that , "In Manitoba, in the Ci ty of Winnipeg you have a higher rate than you have say .in Arborg .,.- where the Honourable .Minister of Education is al ways referring to --

whereas in Saskatchewan there 's no differences of rates prevailing. Nor is there any difference in rates prevailing -- the basic rates in Saskatchewan are all determined by whee !base;· they !re not determined by hors epower. or anything e !se . '' But Madam Speaker, in the report of the Automobile Insurance Office of Saskatchewan. on Page 10, it does show .where there is a difference in rate . I have on Page 10. the page sett ing out the rates, where in Regina. Saskatoon. and Moose Jaw. there is a $50. 00 deductible and it gives the rest .for the remainder of Saskatchewan.

In other words . !- suppose it's based on the fact that m:ore.accidents take place in the more heavil y populated areas ; but there is a

schedule here setting. out the differences in area. I promised to be brief: Madam Speaker. because I know that the sessi on is drawing to a cl ose, but I did want to bring home two or three of these points . The Honourable Member for Hamiota; in speaking in this debate, sa id and I quote from Page 1677. he said: ''I think it's also true , Madam Speaker, that unoer compuls ory insurance, people tend to be care le ss. They don't feel the obligation that they do when they become financially obl igated themselv es.

" Now, I can't really be lieve that people would run about smashing cars if they knew that compensation was automatic . I think this is a littte too dangerous . Madam Speaker. The honourable member also said that, "Together with our safety responsi bilit y law in this province, to cover those who are in a collisi on or in accidents with persons who are not responsible , we· have the Uns atisfied Judgment Fund and this is operated by the government . It's true that it's not always easy -·· it's not just handed out to you. " I would say that's cer tainl y true.

I recall a case where a friend of mine was killed and the driver of the car had no insurance , and it took, I bel ieve two years before the widow was finally compensated from the Unsa tisfied Judgment Fund, So while it is true that you can cl aim from the Fund, it certainly takes a long time. Now I don't submit to the idea that we're going to be more careful if it's not compulsor y. Again on Page 1674 the Honourable Member for Hamiota said that in New York State - that the state had compuls ory automobile insurance. "They entered that in 1957 .

It is esti mated that they have had to hire an extra 1, 000 employees to handle the compulsory automo bil e insurance and the cost is 3 1/2 mil lio n and they are now six months behind in trying to catch up on the uninsured motorists in that state. " Now the big difference, Madam Speaker, is that in New York State they do not combipe auto insurance fees with the cost of the licence .

In Saskatchewan, this can't happen because when you get your plates yoq are automatically insured to the extent of public liabi lity and if you wish to insure on a more el aborate scale then you can take the package policy with the government or you 're free to go out and buy extra insurance from any of the private companies, but this is the big difference . The honourable member said that in England they had compuls ory automobile insurance since 1930 and "it is reported that in 1936 they had 12, 452 convictions for motorists failing to insure. " Well in Great Britain.

Madam Speaker, new licences are not issued every year and this job of collection is complicated. The honourable member also said on the same page that " 'Compulsory can't compel. It co sts mil lions to administer. It crea tes an unnecessa ry government bureaucracy . It does not protect responsible citizens and it increases automobile insul:'ance cost s. ' He states further that 'Three states, Massa chusetts , New York and North Carolina have compulsor y'. " I guess he means compulso ry automobile insurance. But this again, Madam Speaker . is not linked to the licence cost because -- I think this is the

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-4-105
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 4th hansardpdf 105.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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