PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 85 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 29, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

The Rouse met at 10:30 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of personal privilege and that is in connection with the statements I have made or the forecasts I have aade of ~he acceptance by the Government of Canada of the White Paper proposal~ for ' the North West Coast. The statement I made was clear and unmistakeable and I should have thought it was quite incapable of being misunderstood. but,\ Sir, it bas been thoroughly misunderstood.

The statement I made was that withi~ a year, indeed within six months, indeed within a month, the White Paper proposals would be accepted by the Canadian Government. That is my statement and I stand by· that. Now the mis- understanding is as follows that I had said that the park agreement would be signed in that time. My statem~t was that within a year, within six months," within a · month,and then I hesitated to see if I would make it less than a month and I did not, within a month the White Paper proposals would be accepted by the . . . Canadian Government.

Now that is not saying that any agreements would be signed but that the White Paper proposals would be a~cepted. I hope that correction will be.made otherwise I am made out a liar and a thousand times I have neglected to answer it. I just let it pass and I dare say this did lead soae people to think that I was lying or bluffing or deceiving but normally I do not bother to answer but in this matter which can be so closely checked by the Whole public I think it is better that I should ~ke the correction. NOTICE OF !I>TION : Hl. JONES: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to· introduce a 1111, "An Act Further To Amend l'he Ioc011e Tax Act, 1961." QUESTIONS: KJl. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to several questions here. The question 518 on the Order Paper of May 22nd asked by the bon. aa.ber for St. Barbe South. The bon. gentleman is not in the Chamber but I am sure that perhaps the bon. member for St. John's West will pass on the inf~rmation to him. It reads, "In connection with the provision of financial assistance froa the CoverDIIMtnt of Canada under The Technical ctnd Vocational Training Act, to 53;.;4

MR. ROWE: the capital coat of training facilities in t'his Province how much was paid or agreed to be paid to the Government of Newfoundland by the Government of Can'ada for the financial year ending ~reb 31, 1970?" The answer is that the Government of Canada agreed to make available $2,464,000. on a fifty fifty cost sharing basis for that year. No money has been paid to date but we will be claiming from the Government of Canada out of that amount $40,000. to $50,000. I think that amount of money was spent for equipment in the Technical College.

I might say that the fact that we have not made use of the $2,464,000 does not mean in any way that we have lost that money. It means that it is a credit there which we may take up at 'our discretion. AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROWE: That was in last year. The .Government of Canada is a fund ~ha( is available to all the Provinces on a fifty fifty basis and the Government of Canada in any given year will make available in its estimates will provide a proportion of that .fund, in this case .

I do not know why they put in $2.4 million there, which we could take advantage of if we found another $2.4 million to make a total expenditure of about $5. million. But we did DOt do that last year for reaaona well known to the House laut the money ·is not lost to us. The money is available to us when we wish to take advantage of it. The question 520 on the Order Paper of May 22nd also asked by the bon. member for St. Barbe South. What is t~e number of· Indian children nov attending school or university in this Province, showing separately the number attending (

a) elementary school; (

b) high school; (

c) vocational achool; and (

d) university? The same queation is asked in respect of Eskimo children and I regret, Mr. Speaker, I .. DOt sure I do regret it, but we cannot give that answer for a very simple reaeon that schools do not register students according to ethnic origin. If a student applies fo'li an. entrance . to University he is not aaked, "Are you of E81d.o ortpor are you of Indian oriaiD'l" And there could very well be ten students over there of Indian origin or Eskimo origin or anything else and that would not be so recorded and there would be no way for ua to know what they were. MR. MURPIIY: (luudible)•: HR. lOWE: I can say this that we do kaov, 1 suppose you might say by accident, 5325

MR. ROWE: that from time to time Eskimo children, at any rate, do attend the University. I aa not sure there baa ever been any Indian student up there yet. Well that will come because I have another part of the answer to the question that I can In the Indian settlements of North·West River · and David's Inlet there are 225 Indian children attending school in those two Indian settlements and we kDov these are Indian children for the very simple reason that there are no other fa.iliea Eskimo or White, so called, living in those communities.

In fact I opened the new school at North West River and saw there these lovely classes of Indian children, one hundred per-cent Indian children. Children whose parents were one hundred per-cent illiterate and whose fore-parents have been illiterate, and I mean illiterate, illiterate in every sense of the word down through the ages. In the predominately Eskimo settlements of Nain, Hopedale and Makkovik there are 379 students registered. Now these are not necessarily all Eskimo children but the great majority would be.

There might be the children of aissionaries attending there or the children of clerks or of welfare officials and so on they would be attending. But my gaess is that perhaps ninety per­ cent of those 379 in the settlements of Nain~ Hopedale and Makkovik would be of Eskimo origin. HR. WINSOR: Not ninety per-:c:ent in. Makkovik. HR. ROWE: Not in Makkovik the hori. member for Labrador North tells me but certainly a majority of the students in those three communities, In Makkovik there is probably a majority of non-Eskimo students there.

The final question 524 on the Order Paper of May 26th and is asked by the bon. .amber for B~ber East who is also not in the Chamber but perhaps the member for St. John's West would give him this information, make a note of it.

The queation is, '~at is the number of School Attendance Officers recruited by the Government sinc~April 1st, 1969 and in connection with School Attendance Officers recruited, how many of those positions were filled after advertisement through the Civil Service Commission as compared to the number appointed without such advertiseaent and on what basis were the appo:f,ptmenta aade?" Actually, . 5326

MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I answered this question, I think, incidentally yesturday. The number of School Attendance Officers recruited by.the Government since April 1st, 1969, in other words you are in the last year, was four. The number of those . poaitions filled after advertisement through the Civil Service Commission was four. The other part of the question,"Were all or any such School Attendance Officers recruited in the Province?" Yes, they were all recruited in the Province.

I could have supplied the names but I do not think I will trust to my memory but there were four Newfoundlanders as it happens appointed to those posts. They were recommended by the Civil Service £0mmisaion and were appointed.

One other part to that question, "Are these School Attendance Officers paid on a m~leage basis or on a monthly or weekly rate for the use of their motor vehicles in the discharge of their duties and what is the mileage or monthly or weekly rate if such is the case?" The answer is that they are paid on a mileage basis .and the mileage rate is I believe the standard one fqr the services, at any rate it is standard within the Department of Education, thirteen cents per mile. HR. JONES: Yes, it is standard throughout t~e Service. MR.

ROWE: My colleage, the Minister of Finance, informs ae that the rate is now standard throughout the Service, thirteen cents per mile. M&. OOLLINS: Would that dillinish as you drive a certain nUIIber of ailes? MR. JOVE: No, it use to one time but I am inforMd it does not nov. I aight point out that I do not think any of our School Attendance Officers would make auch money off the use of the use of their vehicles in that way for the very sillple .reason, Mr.

Speaker, that many of the .ore difficult cases that they vould have to invutigate would be in the outlying placu perhaps with gravel roads or poorly built roads. MR. JONES: The grade is too low. HR. ROWE: Yea, this ia right. I believe there are inatances where not only School Attendance Officers but other officers in the Civil Service have used their vehicles unvilling in this vork because lf you have to be running out ower gravel roads where there ls •harp rocks and pot holes and everything else - 5327

--.. - - AN RON. MEMBER: There are no really bad roads. MR. ROWE: Well, there maybe a few miles here and there in the Province. The wear and tear, I do not need to tell any bon. g~ntleman . tha~you can cut up a · couple of new tires in the space of two or three miles under certain conditions. These are the answers to the questions. As far as I know, I think, Hr. Speaker, this completes all the questions asked. Is there one more! MR. CROSBIE: The 18th you did not answer about school desks. HR. ROWE: About school desks, I am sorry I did not know that as my officers advised me that this completed their list.

I wonder if the bon. gentleman wo~d give me the number as they must have overlooked it; MR. CROSBIE: Oh no, it is for the Minister of Supply. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question 541 on today's Order Paper asked by the bon. member for Bonaviata North who was Minister of Public: Welfare in those ancient times in the Charles Dickens .days.· The answer to part one is 128, part two bedridden $19.73, ambulatory $14.90. The answer to part three is three, part four is application for assistance is made to the local Welfare Officer by the applicant prior to admission. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to question 474 asked by the bon. member for Bonavista North on the Order Paper of April 17th, the answer to the first part of th~ question is no repairs other than maintenance were carried out by the regular maintenance staff therefore the second part of the question do not arise, aaintenance other than those carried out by the regular maintenance staff. Answer to question 509 asked by the bon. me-.ber for St. John's West on the Order Paper of May 13th, the answer to the first part of the question (a) $298,968.66, (b) $65,000. (c) $19,000. (d) $31,700.

The an•wer to the second part of the question is $298,968.66, second part of the question the answer is on examination of the books of the accounts by officials of my depart'IIIBnt di•closed that their records were not fully written up. Certain ainor trans­ actions were not properly recorded and the Department of the Auditor General is presently carryin1 out the regular audit of the Council's operations in accordance nth reYisiona of the Local GoYennaent Act, 1966. The financiill dtuation ~f the town will be reviewed by officials of my Department on receipt 5328

MR. DAWE: of the Auditor General's report. The answer to the fourth part of the question is the Government does not expect to recover any moneys, through legal action or otherwlse, on behalf of the Town Council of Bay Roberts. However, it t. t~• practice of Municipal Councils to recover any moneys it may be owed from any source whatsoeve~ throush legal action if necessary. I have as well, Mr. Speaker, the answer to question 492 asked by the bon. member for Bonaviata North on the Order Paper of April 30th. This an~er is quite extensive and I will table it.

I have the answer as well to question 446 asked by the bon. member for St. John's West on the Order . Paper of April.lJth. This answer is quite extensive and I will table this answer as well. MR.. STARKES: Mr. Speaker, I have the ansver to question 506 on the Order , Paper I of May 11th asked by the bon. member for St. John's C~ntre. The an~er tp part one is yea, part two (a) $1,818,871.45 (b) 5329 -

MR. STARKES: (b) $154,844.17 and the answer to part three $850,950.12. MR. CROSBIE: Would the Minister mind repeating· these, we cannot take shorthand here. • MR. STARKES : Which part would you like repeated? MR. CROSBIE: Start at part two again. MR. STARKES: $850,950.12. Part two (a) $1,818,871.45 (b) $154,844.17 and part three ORDERS OF· THE DAY HR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, before we go into Orders of the Day I would like to · address a question to the hon. Minister of Justice with reference to the inquiry being conducted by Magistrate Strong into the disagreement in the Police Depart­ ment.

I understand that the inquiry has been concluded and I do not know if this is so. I heard it has been and I wonder if the Minister of Justice would give us the answer and perhaps if the result of that inquiry is to be tabled. MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, I have received the report and it is being copied and copiea.vill be released to the House and I expect to the Press. PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS: 533-12 COMMITTEE OF THE. WHOLE ON SUPPLY : · MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chainutn, I vas about to make a few remarks last evening when the Bouse was adjourned.

I vas about to mention then that we do not intend to go into all of the detail and rehash all of it which was debated last year in connection with the Newfoundland Bulletin. I would like though, Mr. Chaiman, to make some reference to the argument as put forth by the Premier and other bon. 111e111bers oppoaite when they seemed to try and justify the existence of! and the cost of the Bulletin by saying that if nothing else was gained certainly it -. worth while because of ·the fact that many of the children, boys and girls who are up for adoption had found homes throuahout Newfoundland. this.

I believe, is making an appeal to the emotions of bon. members of this Bouse and the emotions of the people of Newfoundland because that might be one of the side effects, the side benefits of the paper certainly I do not think that that justifjes the publishing and the cost anfl the distribution cost of that 53~0

MR. COLLINS: particular bulletin. All bon • .eabers will recall that last year·the Minister went through great pains to the press in proclaimi~g an adoption Sunday and I think the record speaks for itself in that all of the churches ~hroughout Newfoundland co-operated with the Minister and his idea, co-operated one hundred per-cent. After that adoption Sunday Nas held, as it were, 1 reaekber hearing the Minister co.e back through the media again and proclaiming it as. a great success. 1 do not know the number of boys and girls who actually found homes as a result of that particular appeal but I would say, Mr.

Chai·rman, that the churches did co-operate well, they did co-operate 'on a one hundred per-cent basis we are told and 1 would suggest, Sir, that possibly that is a more effective way in finding homes for some our less fortunate boy~ and g~ris. I would suggest, Sir, that possibly if the Minister continued this approach in this direction that there would be no need to publish the pictures of thoee boys and girls in the Newfoundland Bulletin.

This seems ~o be the biggest argument which the Government offers in support of the Bulletin and I suspect in doing so they deliberately, when I say they I ~efer to the Government, refEained from discussing the real issues in this particular case.

There is no doubt :Ia liiJ mind at all that many of the people in Newfoundland, I would . not be prepamd to say how many, but certainly many of the people do desire and do have a ~ to information on various Government Departments. · Welfare recipienta,for instance • many of them sometimes do not know where to so 81111. certa:iDly tMJ ._. a right and the Government baa a responsibility to inatract those people tD the proper approach in applying for welfare payment and also instractin& tbBa u ta what they can expect, what is theirs under right, under law, under tile replatiou. 1 voald also 'be willing to admit that the people have the rigbt _. de GoverDMDt bas a responsibility to provide some infor8ation but if we r...t lla Newfoundland Bulletin and I must honestly confess I do read it because I '­ a particular reason for reading it and I suspect all bon. members of tbia­ reads it through from time to time but I have the feelin&'that the Go..~ are taking a position· that they are giving tQ the people what the Gave~ 5331

MR. COLLINS: feels the people should know. This in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, is entirely WTODI• As I said before I am willing to admit that some information is necessary to get to the public and if the information which is necessary for them to know or necessary for people to get to them then I would suggest, Sir, that the Deputy Ministers or some other officials of ·the various Departments make this information known without any political bias whatsoever.

Any of us who have read the Bulletin certainly must ca.e to the conclusion that the vast and greatest part of that particular paper, the vast majority of the items in it are political biased, I do not think there is any doubt about that at all in the world. We have seen in recent months that the Federal Government in Ottawa are ~idering setting up what is known as an Information Canada Center. It has been the subject of some great debate in the Rouse of Commons and I would suspect, Mr.

Chairman; that that particular Government will be very careful that any informati~n which is provided. to the Canadian people will be Uuhiased from a political point of view and will be done by experts in the field who by perusal of various Government· Acts,; Legislation and regulation and so on and so forth will endeavour to interpret those · to _the people so that the people can under~tand them and know what their rights are and so on.

I vaald ~ ~ very little political propaganda will be included and I caoDDt see for aae 1110111eot how this Government or any other Government- can take a chance and they are taking a chance, Mr. Chai~n. in spreading poli~ical propaganda under the disguise of providing necessary Government information to the people.

If the Liberal Party wants to print and distribute a political propaganda abeet then they have ever right to do so in the free world where we have freed011 of tbe press. 'lbe Conservative Party or the Newfoundland Democratic Party have tbat right as well but no Government baa the right to .masquerade as it were on the preau.ption that they are providing necessary information to the people in terms of their need and their right to know what is going on in Gove~nt and what their rights are.

No Government has the right to pollute, if you want to, that particular sheet with a vast amount of propaganda and we all know that that is a vast amount of propaganda. 53 3 2

HR. COLLINS: In ao far aa ~ own conatituents are concerned, Mr. Chairman, I know for a fact that in the Towns of Gander, Botwood,and Biahop Falls and all the Post Offices throughout my district, if one were to visit the Post Office lobby on the day when the Bulletin is received and placed in Post Office boxes and given out by general delivery you will find that the garbage cans are full, the floor is littered and so far as I am concerned, Sir, it is a terrible waste of money •. I am,sure if the people of Newfoundland were told they would say that they . do not want it and for those reasons, Mr.

Chairman, I have no choice but recommend that this particular vote be reduced to $1.00. Seconded by the Leader of the Opposition if we need it seconded. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, 1 did not intend to speak any·· .,re on this particular item as it has had quite a going over but yesturday I do not think in my experience in the House in seven and a half years I have ever heard such foolish and al.ost vindictive and vicious arguments used in the wrong context in appealing to us and to the p~ple on behalf of small innocent babies. to support an outrageous expenditure of $140,000.

To me this is the lowest type of tactic to appeal to people's sympathies by justifying someth~ng which is unnecessary. Everybody within the House, without the.House and throughout all of New­ foundland and Labrador have the greatest of sympathy and compassion for these poor unfortunate children and to justify the means of reaching them through this Government Bulletin which covers up a lot of other information which is entirely unnecessary is in my opinion outrageoua tactics. It .ia the feelings of the better instincts of people to cover up what is a gross mistake on the part of the Government.

However the fact is of course that of the 100,000 copies of tbia Bulletin that go out not more than two per-cent of ~he people they reach can or are able or are willing to do anything about the adoption procedures.

How two per-cent if we go~ the .two per-cent is very, very good indeed but I contend and I think I had experience as Minister of Welfare that if the Department of Welfare were given $10,000. or $15,000. a year to spend on this particular purpose they could do a far more useful, a far more direct. and a far,more effective job on getting the adoption of theae children than could $140,000. spent on the Newfoundland Bulletin. I see no proper context to this 5333

..... - J MR. EARLE: argument at all. It is good interesting reading, it is attractive reading, attractive young babies on the back of the paper make interesting reading but to use that as a justification for all the rest of the stuff that goes in that publication I think is the most disgraceful and outra~eous tactic and I do not agree with it. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, before we vote on this I would like to just ask the Minister for some information, I certainly agree ~ith what the previous speaker said.

It is a lame attempt to justify the Newfoundland Government Bulletin by saying that one of the three great reasons for it is to promote the adoption of babies. It is just supine, it is so ridiculous, it is so weak-kneed it is tragic, it is tragic that you have to hear a Government offer such a puny spurious argument as that, so enough said. Would the Minister tell us how the $140,000. was broken down for the Newfoundland Government Bulletin?

I would like to know how much of that is for salaries, how ~ch of that is the cost of printing, how much of it covers the cost of the paper, how much of it covers the mailing cost? We should have some breakdown here, Mr. Chairman, who is doing th~ printing and how much does that cost and does that include the cost of paper? Bow much of the $140,000. is salaries, how .uch is for mailing, in other words are all the costs in that $140,000. or are there other costs that are hidden elsewhere in the estiaates? What is the breakdown of the $140,000? MR. PRECKER: All but salaries are covered by the $~40,000.

If the bon. member is very anzious to get a further breakdown 1 dare say I could get it for him. Postage and printing takes up the big bulk of the cost and while on _, feet - HR. CROSBIE: What are the salaries? HR. FRECKER: The salaries are carried in another sub-head and I believe it is $12,000. for the editor. Wh~le on. my feet, Mr. Chairman, I would like to pick up statements just made by the two last speakers. First of all the thing should be the statement that I made.if the reference is to one that 1 made, should be put in focus.

I took great care to point out that one little aspect not a major consideration that might be of interest to this House would be to take note of the fact that the policy initiatl!d by the bon. Minister for Social 5334

MR. FRECKER: Services to the Bulletin had had such good effects as to increase the number of adoptions to the point where it represented a very considerable saving for the Government that some 106 adoptions had been recorded since the program was initiated and that ae the Premier pointed out later the adoption of a child saves the.Govemment approximately $1,000. a year for each child. Now that is just one small side effect of the publication of the Bulletin. It carries that kind of information, that kind of promotion and it might not continue to do so but I should also like to point out, Mr.

Chairman, that to my knowledge most big organizations take advantage of publishing some form of magazine or news letter be it the Royal Bank of Canada, the Bank of Montreal, the Imperial 011 Company, the CIL, to mention just a few that comes to my house, the Iron Ore Co~any, all these companies publish magazines and I fail to see anything wrong in these companies bringing to the attention of the general public the good work and the policies that they are promoting.

For a Government to endeavour to bring to the attention of the people the work that the Govern- ment is doing is in my opinion not ludicrous, not ridiculous but truly a worth- while objective. l. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. FRECKER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would certainly and I would say that that is a far more justification for a Government to do it than for a private company to do it and I think both are fully _justified in doing it.

As I said yesturday people will look at these things , thtough the eyes that they want to look at them but when we are gone and have disappeared from the stage of life people will go back to the archives and find these ~verament Bulletins quite a fine source of information. I fail to see any political propaganda in the wrong sense, political propaganda in the right sense yes bUt I have not seen anything against any other parties in the columna of the Bulletin.

I have just seen a record of what the Government is endeavouring to do and making sure that it gets to the people in a form that the Government wishes it to get to the people not in the form in which ita enemies want it to get to the people. HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, if I may have a word on the adopting aspect of the Newfoundland Bulletin as been raised by various members on the other aide of 53;;5

MR. NEARY: the House. I think the bon. member for Gander, unless I misunderstood him, is aort of paaaing out a backhanded compliment. That was completely offset then by the bon. ~ber for Fortune Bay who was Minister of Welfare in those dark agea that I have been talking about. I thi~k, Mr. Chairman, that every thinking Newfoundlander was co~letely shocked to discover that by last September there were 566 children available for adoption in Newfoundland and I do not think, Mr. Chairman, that you can measure in dollars and cents the value of finding permanent homes and moms and dads for these children.

Now granted the' Adoption Sunday Program was a tremendous success and the Dominations and the Clergy especially are due a great deal of praise for co-operating with my department in carrying out this children's crusade and Adqption Sunday. I think that any person who was having any dou~ts about the clergy changed his mina with their involvement in t~e Adoption Sunday Program. But, Mr.

Chairman, this is what the Newfoundland Bulletin does and I might say just in passing that as a result of our children's crusade and Adoption Sunday one daily newspaper, the Daily News, is now carrying a picture of a child and I might add that these pictures that.appear in the Bulletin and in the Daily News are factitious names but the Daily News was - 53~6

r"''" - .L MR. NEARY: the Daily News was the only one that picked it up and have continued, every week, since the Children's Crusade started, carrying a picture of a child available for adoption. the television people have not come along and make this offer Mr. Chairman, neither has the other daily newspaper that is published in Newfoundland or any of the weeklies. We do not have a budget in my department for advertising. Because, in my opinion, Mr.

Chairman, the people of Newfoundland must be continuously made aware - they must be continuously made conscious of the fact that at this moment in Newfoundland there are over 500 children - 507 to be exact as of the end of April available · for adoption. It has to be a continuous program. MR. MURPHY: Have any efforts been made to approach these media to do this as sort of a public service on behalf of the department. I am just wondering or if the minister expects them to take it upon their own and promote it? MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, these newspapers and radio stations and television stations have been most co-operative, but they are in business to·~ake money. And we do not have a budget in my department to run comrnericals, and so therefore, we have to resort to, they volunteering their facilities or the Newfoundland Bulletin. Now we have our peak periods in adoptions, Mr.

Chairman, in say the fall of the year and especially during the month of December, which is considered as Children's Month, we reach· a peak, but during the summer periods, once we have passed Easter, from Easter up until the fall of the year again, when people are going on vacation and so forth,·then we go down in a valley and what we are trying to do, Mr. Chairman, is trying to average it out over a year, it is during say from April up to October, I would say are the months when we must concentrate and devote more of our energies to trying to find permanent parents for these wards of the Province.

And this is where the Newfoundland Bulletin comes 53~7

. -..... .1 - _, ....... • _., -.., --s;r- .. .., __ MR. NI::l\HY: in very, very handy, Mr. Chairman, because this is the only facility we have. And I might add, Sir, that since the pictures of children available for adoption started to appear in the Newfoundland Bulletin, that we had an increase of eighty percent. Eighty percent in less ·than two years, Sir, increase in actual placements made. So, therefore, I think as the han.

Minister of Provincial Affairs pointed out, that if the Bulletin does nothing else, Sir, that it is helping to find permanent homes and mothers and fathers for these over 500 wards, who are wards of this Province, who are available for adoption at the present time. MR. H.R.V. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, just to get the record quite . clear on this thing, may l repeat that no one, emp~aize no one, is criticizing the han. minister for his efforts in a~option procedures on behalf of children, he has done· an excellent job given a lot of publicity, and I think all credit is due him in this particular effort.

The point that I made ., Mr. Chairman, and I still insist is a correct one, that this could be done an awfully lot cheaper and better by the department itself. The minister referred to the fact that in the dark ~ges when I was Minister of Welfare, he used that term, the dark ages were very enlightened ages, as far as the adoption of children was concerned. Because one of the biggest factors in the adoption of children in Newfoundland had been for years,the preponderance of adoptions by American service people in the Province, when"they were .here in great numbers, they adopted ,•many of our · children.

They were very active and interested in that particular field, and at the time that I was Minister of Welfare, the ado~tions were keeping up at a quite good level. But as the bases faded out and the Americans withdrew, the adoption rate fell very, very quickly. 5338

-.... MR. EARLE: Now I! do not disagree with the minister, that a new effort and a strong effort was needed to bring the people's attention the fact that these children were available for adoption. He has done a remarkably good job in that f .ield. But that under no circumstances is any justification or should not be attempted to be a justification for an expenditure of $140,000, when $10,000 advertising budget in his department or a 1i~t1e more.could bring far greater results. MR. JOHN CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to get the information that the minister said he would get.

It is $140,000 for the Newfoundland Government Bulletin, and the minister have said, that is not the total cost of the Bulletin, because the minister says,, that salaries are not included. so obviously there is an editor, the minister says, it is $12,000 a year for the editor, and he must have a girl or some other staff. So the Bulletin is · actually costing the Province not a $140,000, but at least a $160,000. So I would appreciate it, if he .could get us what the salary costs are in connection with the Bulletin, which is not incl~ded in the $140,000.

And a breakdown of $140,000, how much for printing, how much for mailing, and how much it cost to put an issue out? What does one issue cost, 100,000 copies printed and distributed around the Province? I think that is legitimate information, if he would ge·t that for us. And what the real costs are of the Bulletin, because you have to include salaries certainly. And is the mailing cost all included in this $140,000 · or is mailing covered somewhere else in- you know is this the real cost of the Bulletin? MR. FRECKER: I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, if the hon. member would be good enough to give me privately a list of these questions, I did not take them down. And I will see, if I can get the answers for him. 53:;9

May "' :n::n • .1::. , u ·-~c ---- MR. CROSBIE: I mean we can vote the item anyway you know, hut if the minister will just get us the answers. MR. HODDER: Vote under 533-02-12 he reduced to $1.00. Those in favour please say "I", Contrary minded "Nay". I take it the motion is lost. Shall the item carry? Carried. 534-0l-01 carry? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, the Arts and Culture Centre is that right, Mr. Chairman. The Arts and Culture Centres, Mr. Chairman, that is the one at St. John's and the one at Corner Brook. One question I have is in connection with the St.

John's Centre, there seems to be quite a cut this year in the money bhe money that they are being voted. I would like to say first that the Arts and Culture Centre in St. John's has been very well run, and the. man in charge is doing a very good job, I would think. Not mentioning it, even though he is a first cousin. I do not think that I should discriminate against him just because he is a first cousin. And the figures that the minister gave the other day of the number of visits and so on, the St. John's Arts and Culture Centre is really ex'cellent.

But I notice that three positions, by the way he has not spoken,about this to me, this is just­ I noted this myself. I notice that there are three positions cut out.of the staff of the St. John's Arts and Culture Centre, last year there were ten employed there, and this year apparently there are only going to be s~ven employed there. Last year the salary costs were $70,300, at least that was the estimate. And this year only $59,000 is being voted. So that seems to be a considerable cut - how are they going to survive it. The staff reduced from ten to seven is quite a reduction.

That was one question in connection with the St. John's Arts and Culture Centre, which is really doing a·good .job, and the total cost of operating is a $112,000. I mean it is certainly 5340 I r

MR. CROSBIE: ve ry, very reasonably. Now in connection with Corner Brook, Mr~ Chairman, my question here is this,taclO,OOO the mini·ster said yesterday, 10,000 people went to the Arts and Culture Centre at Corner Brook, that is to the Arts and Culture part of it, and 84,000 people used the swimming pool last year. Now 10,000 seems very, very small, in otherwords there cannot be muc~ of a program out at the Corner Brook Arts and Culture Centre, as far as plays or musicals o~ art•·exhibitions, I wonder.would the minister tell us something about that.

And I notice that the operating grant for Corner Brook is being cut from $19,600 to $6500. It is .being reduced down to a third the operating grant. How is the Arts and Culture Centre in Corner Brook going to operate with such a reduction, in its operating grant? That is my question for Corner Brook. And if I can go on to another matte~ MR. MURPHY: The one in Gander. MR. CROSBIE: No, Grand Falls. There is no money provided in the-estimates for the Arts and Culture Centre that is now under construction at Grand Falls.

Now in answer to a question earlier in the session, it ·was said that at Grand Falls, the Expo Building at Grand Falls or part of an Expo Building that is at Grand Falls, that $881,501 have been spent on that at the end of December 1969. $881,501 have been spent on that Expo Building at Grand Falls. Could the minister tell us, if that building is going to be completed by the end of March 1971, because if it is there is no money at all in the estimates for the operation of it. And would the minister mind telling us, just what is going to be in this Expo Building at Grand Falls? I mean, what is it going to be 5311

MR. CROSBIE: comprised of, is there a theatre, just what kind of a facility is being put up there? Because the total cost apparently is going to be $1,510,000 is the estimated total cost for this Expo Building in Grand Falls, of which over half is being spent to the end of December. So, I would like to get some information on that, if we could. By the way there are two questions answered about the cost of the Arts and Culture Centre at Grand Falls, and this shows how inaccurate the answers are.

Question No. 40, was stated that the estimated cost of the Arts and Culture Centre at Grand Falls was going to be $1,376,598 that was the answer on that question. And then another question was answered, Question No. 63 was answered about Expo Duildings,ltReaR~tl~ated cost given in that answer was $1,510,000. Now the answers to both of those questions . . cannot be right. Answer to Question No. 40, says that Grand Falls Expo Building is going to cost $1,376million, answer to question No. 79 the building is going to cost, $1;510,000.

Now I imagine~ the minister would not have the answer to that question, we can wait for Public Works, but if he would just outline for us, what the Minister of Education is doing with this Expo_Building at Grand Falls1 When he plans the grand opening, whether we will be all invited, will this be before the end of March 1971? Will the Leader of the Opposition be there? MR. FRECKER: Mr. Chairman, before I attempt to answer one or two other questions, I wonder if the Minister of Education, who has just been referred to would care to say a few words on the ~ Grand Falls Culture Centra?

Yes, he is very closely linked with it. MR. F. W. ROWE : Mr. Chairman, with great reluctance I rise to my feet to make a few comments. The Arts and Culture Centre at Grand Falls is I think, as the commi1 :tee are aware, a part of, physical:.y it ~s a part of what was once the great and beautiful 53·!2 I·

May 29th. 1970 Tape 1030 Pk - 7 MR. ROWE~ Czechoslovakian pavilion at Expo in Montreal. That building which was in two parts was dismantled and the steel and the related parts were brought to the Province. One part placed at Gander and one at Grand Falls. Well I am not presumed to speak in respect to the building ' at Gander, nor in respect of the, I think, the so-called YugosJ:ava building, which has been put at Grand Bank. I did read somewhere in the papers, statements to the effect that the one at Grand Falls, or the material at Grand Falls was a hulk of rusty steel lying on the ground there.

That statement which has been made in a number of quarters, is one hundred percent incorrect • . The fact is that the, for all practical purposes, the building at Grand Falls has been erected, the interior work has not yet been done, or at least, it was not done the last time I saw it, and I am quite sure it has not been done as yet. However, there is a building there and a very beautiful building even now from the outside, it is quite obvious · that it is a very beautiful building.

And it is join~ng a . great complex at Grand Falls, it is only a few yards away from our beautiful public building, perhaps I should stress at this point, that these services like the public buildings, like the Arts and .Culture Centre are located, I think, for fairly well known reasons,. irt the town, within the municipality of Grand Falls, but they are not merely there to serve the 8,000 people in Grand Falls. That area has 20,000 people concentrated within the space of no more than ten miles, eleven miles to be exact.

It is eleven miles from the Town of Windsor to the Sir Robert Bond Bridge on the Exploits River, and there you have the . three municipalities of Grand Falls, Windsor and Bishop's Falls, and this is why I re9arded this dispute or controversy, if I may digress for a moment, Mr. Chairman, I use this to illustrate a point, I regard this controversy that developed as to where the CNR should put its distribution centrn, wh.ether it should be in 53:13

.May 29th. l~UO '.I."Apt: J.U.;)U MR. ROWE, F', W: Grand Falls or Bishop's Falls, I regret it," as I am sure my hon. friend from Gander m~st have felt the same way . as I did, that for all practicalipurposes, it is really immaterial. Because,! would say that the majority of.the people who are working from Bishop 1 s Falls work in· Grand Falls and Wimdsor ,i .certainly hundreds of them do, hundreds of them. The fact that the Minister of Highways has that great depot _and ga~age, the largest this side of Montreal, actually in the Town of Grand Falls, although it i:; p+obably nearer to the Town of Windsor, nearer to the residential

section of Windsor, but that fact in no way penalizes the people of Bishop's Falls because I am quite sure of the eighty men or so who are employed in that great garag~, I am quite sure that a considerable number 0 would come from Bishop's Falls, which after all is at the fartherest is only eleven miles away, and part of which town is no more than seven miles away from that, with a great Trans-Canada Highway joining them, seven minutes that is all it takes, seven mi~utes to go from the Highway's garage to the west end of Bishop's Falls.

And in this day and age, seven minutes, you are lucky if you live within twenty minutes or balf an hour motor car distance from your work. So I do not think this is too· important. The point that I do want to stress, a facility such'·as the Arts and Culture Centre will undoubtedly serve all that population there , and also including the town of Gander, which is only eighteen miles away at its furtherest, and which again, I am sorry the town of Badger, which is only eighteen miles away. MR. COLLINS: Inaudible. MR. ROWE, F.W. My hen. friend said, watch his blobd pressure.

I said the town of Badger, it was a slip of the tongue, which is eighteen miles away, again connected by eighteen miles of Trans- Canada Highway. 5344

... ~.U.:l - - -··. -· MR. CROSBIE: What is going to be in the Town? MR. ROWE , F.W. I was coming to that point too. The Arts and CUlture Centre at Grand Falls will have three basic facilities; first of all it will be a dramatic theatrical centre, and those people who scorn and ridicule the idea of this great centre here at St. John's, and unnec17ssary luxury, a piece of rflirty. ·: , was ' described by one of our more wealthier citizens, more wealthier, that is not good grammer, more wealthy citizen, one of our more wealthy citizens described that has a piece of flirty. Ridiculous, extravagance.

I am thinking of the one here now. But,of course, if you are a multimillionaire you can sen your sons and daughters to expensive private schools in England or in the United States,· where they can commute to Coven Gardens or to the Metropolitian Opera or to any of the shows on Broadway or to any of the west end shows in Londo~. You are really not too much interested in· having an Arts and Culture Centre here. Why should you be? What do the massive 53·15

May 29 1970 Tape 1031 page 1. the masses want with the theatre anyway or opera or music or - MR.NEARY: Harry Hibbs of Bell Island, he never thought he would wind up on the stag~ of the Arts and Culture Centre. MR.ROWE: The truth of the matter is Mr. Chairman, that this Arts and Culture Centre here now is playing a vital

part in the artistic and cultural and general educational development of the boys and girls and the men and women too. of this Province. And this will be true in respect of the one at Corner Brook and it will be true in respect of the one at other centres including the one at Grand Falls.

Whereas I pointed out just now, indeed if you were to think again in terms, for example, of theatrical productions by a first lcass t~upe requiring proper facilities, proper accommodations. BotwoQd for that purpose the town of Botwood, which is about twenty-two or twenty-three.miles from Grand Falls, a good deal of it over t he· Trans-Canada and all of it will be over a modern paved highway within a very short time. And so you have your 5000 people in the Botwood area or more rikht there who no doubt will be taking advantage from time to time on special occasions.

If an orchestra or national ballet comes down here and plays at the Arts and ~ulture Centre at Grand Falls, nobody in his right senees would think that the attendance would be confiDed t o .the people from Grand Fall, a or from Windsor. And what I have said here applies equally to the Town of Gander which again is a nodal regional centre.

ADi tbe productions which will take place whether they are dramatic or artistic or whether athletic or anything else~ which will take place in the Town of Gander, will :f.nvvitably draw people, it does, even at this time, draw people from Gambo, or draw people from as far away as Lewisporte. And certainly from Gander Bay itself. We have to think in terms • we cannot afford to be duplicating Arta ..t Culture Centres o~ other facilities. I mean it is all over the place we ~ cannot afford it, and it ia unnecessary anyway.

Again, in this day aDC1 ._a where yot have all weather roads, good roads. usable v.l.rtually every day_. the year. Now, as far as the Centre at Gl~and Falls is concerned, there .-Jl 5346

May 29 1970 Tape 1031 page 2. be three basic uses for that centre. And this may not necessarily apply in tespect of other Arts and Culture Centres at Grand Bank or Gander I do not presume to speak for them. I speak for the Grand Falls one because I am intimately connected with it. At Grand Falls we will have first of all the basic ..a theatrical and dramatic centre. For the production of all kinds of musical and artistic and cultural activities relating to at least 20,000 people. In addition, this is a very ·important aspect of this building or will be.

The Public Libraries Board of Newfoundland has accepted the offer of the Government of Newfoundland to utilize a major portion of this building · as a regional library distributing centre. In the past we ·have had to depend, of all/the Province: had to depend for the most part on St. John's here as a distributing centre. This of course is ridiculous, why should a hundred thousand people on the West Coast of Newfoundland, four or five hund~ed miles . .· !t. - . away ~ave to aepend on St. John's, on the centre here in St. John's any more than they would ~epend on the centre in St. John's for their medical services.

Grand Falls will then become or this centre will become the great distributing centre for Central Newfoundland, radiating out to points like Springdale. and Botwood, Buchan& abd Lewisporte and so on. Now, this does not mean to say that these other communities will not have the libraries, of . course they will but it is precisely because the other communities do have and in the case of smaller ones where they do not have it is precisely because you do have libraries or will have libraries that you need a great distributing And in this case the one at Grand Falls will serve that need.

And thirdly, a small por.tion of · the building will be devoted to. vUl be an art gallery and I have no doubt that in course of time the various educational institutions in that area where art and religious subjects are being taught will utilize any facilities that might ae in the arts and culture '- centre at Grand Falls. just as1 vell I do not need to elaborate. Anyone who bas 5347

May 29 ' 1970 Tape 1031 page 3. has gone into this great centre over here can see the impact that that is having not merely on the dramatic and theatrical · development in St. John's but •· ;,_-. in every aspect of our cultural life. And I say now and I am prepared to stand or fall on this that Newfoundland needs arts and cultur~ centres. And that we are not wasting money when we provide those facilities for our boys and girls or for ~ur adults as well.

And that in five or seven or ten years time, if anyone were to suggest that the arts and culture. centre at Grand Falls or Gander or Corner Brook should be closed down or removed he would be hanged in effigy. I know there are people who have argued and said well at this time when we need more elementary schools or we need more this and that we should not have, we should not be indulging in thesLex~ravagances. They are not extravagances. It has been pointed out before that man does not live by ~ bread alone. And I do not think the Newfoundlanders should live by elementary schools alone. Great is bhe need is there.

No·r should we live by water and sewerage alone, or elec·tricity alone, uniess we intend to be the cultural backwater of North America as we were for so long the economic back- water. MR.EARLE: Mr. Chairman, just a few words on the Arts and Culture. . eentl!es tenerally under this vote. I think anyone will - ~zree with what the bon. miDlster who just sat down said, that man does not live by bread alone. He needs a certain amount of soul food and this is what we are getting through the Arts and Culture Centres and undoubtedly the one in St.

John's is of great benefit to the population here and it has been very well run and very well serving the public. The only thing is that on occasion some of the things that I have seen over there I doubt very much if it is culture ve are getting. But that is a matter of opinion and everybody has a different idea of that. And some of the stuff ve can well do without. However, we have to take the good with the bad I suppose, and generally it is serving a good purpose.

But the overriding question on :the Arts and Culture Centres and I think the 1110st i _mportant is the fact that 1:.1 the first place these ones out of 53 :!8

May 29 1970 Tape 1031 page 4. town. these pavilions. from Expo 1967. were supposed in the first place not ~o cost us anything. Well . ~! believe the bill so far is up around $3 million for them and it is going to go on from there by the time they are completed. We have one in the process et Grand Falls, as the bon. minister has just said. There is some steel at Grand Bank and there is something at Gander. Well we have not been able to determine yet from the questions asked there is some conflict of what has actually been spent to date on these Arts and Culture Centres.

I remember last year there was a $1,5 million in the vote. But either through back bills or something that was not sufficient because there was a mad rush during the year to try to find $750,000 to keep the thing going. Now, somewhere along the line more money had to be found for this purpose and I do not think the full story or the true story ha& yet been disclosed as to what we have spent. Not taking into consideration what we yet have to spend. on these functions. The fact is of, course that in buying Expo buildings which were built pure and simply for the purpose of an exhibition.

They were neither suitable nor adaptable for this purpose. They had to be brought here, knocked down, reassembled and lying around for some time before we could afford to reassemble them, which altogether baa cost in ~ opinion, and will cost far more than brand new suitable buildings, if they had been constructed on a sit&would have cost. Incidentally one dispute I will always have that the Arts and Culture C~ntre over here although it ia a b~autiful building and a magnificent buidling, perhaps could have been done an awful lot less expensive and still serYe the same purpose, and served it just as well.

Or there again that is -rely a personal opinion. But the point 1 have brought up with other ezpestditures of Government and this one is a very good point on which to illustrate it. It is the fact that when you create these things they have an on-going expense. Once you build a building it must be staffed. It must be looked after if it ia to be o! any use. And so far in this year's estimates I aee nothing at all not a cent for anythinf: for Grand Bank or for Gar<der. And 53 .. 1:9

May 29 uno Tape 1031 page 5. yet we are told, or Grand Falls, and yet we are assured that the ones that have not been touched yet, have not been lifted .. off the ground are going to be built this year. There is nothing in Capital Account to provide the money for that. There is nothing in Current Account to cover the expense for running them. And just who is fooling who. Is there going to be a sudden deluge of gold from Heaven designated to build Expo pavilions or where are we going to get it. Are we going to get somebody to do it on credit?

And then at the very end of the year he is going to come in madly and say he cannot exist because he needs a SPecial warrant to pay for this. This is all so much malarkey ·in my opinion. Why not put the facts in th~ estimates and let the people of Newfoundland know what we are doing honestly and forthrightly. · I do not think that there will be any question on the part of Newfoundlanders as to the value of these things, they want them in :~hese places and these centres and if they are done reasonabl~ run as cheaply as can be 1 and serve the people well, it will be to~ the credit of th'e Government.

But when we try to cover up an effort of this sort by saying it will be done ~nd yet provide no money for it and say it will , be ·run and there is no money to run it all this . sort of 'thing_ makes people extremely doubtful, makes us on this side of the House think that it is only one grea't big bluff. And we expect that the first . time the Grand Bank pavillion and possibly the Gander will see the light of day and start shaking some of the rust.off the steel will be about the time that an election is being called. We will see the steel going up so faat that the birds will have to get out of the way.

But. this is the sort of thing that is just completely fooling the people and there is no point in presenting estimates where expenses which we know will be undertaken or which the Gove~nment say will be undertaken are not provided for. MR.H.COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, just a few words on this. I was impressed by some figures £c.ncerning the Corner Brook Arts and Culture Centre where ten thousand people att.ended various drama events there und something in the order of 53;)0

May 29 1970 Tape 1031 page 6 • . --. -:- 80,000 people attended functions at. the swimming pool. This 1 believe hears out the wisdom, confirms the wisdom of the people of Gander when last year it was decided by a citizens committee~ we wanted the Czech pavilion

section at Gander to include not only an Arts and Culture Centre or a place for drama festivals etc. but also a swimming pool. We have had the Premier's guarantee the Premier's promis, his word, he has given it inside this House and · outside on several occasions that he agrees that that is going to be done.

Not too long ago about two or three weeks ago he confirmed to me again that the be centre would/at least started in Gander this year and the centre in Grand he Falls would/continued with and eventually completed by the end of the year or early in tbe Hew Year.~·· But all of this Sir, certainly must make us wonder and in relation to what my hon. friend just said, there is no ev:tdence of any funds in the Capital Account estimates and there is certainly no evidence h~re of even a token amount of $100 which I understand Mr. Chairman is essential.

For instance if there is any money to be spent on Arts and Culture or roads or anywhere else certainly we would have $100 token amount shown. Failing that, and there is oo evidence in those estimates at all of any token amount. We can only . . assume that the Government has no,intention of getting going with the those establishments this year and all we have heard is promises and evidently this .is the ex~ent of the Premier's intentions right now, just one promise after I . another.

However there has been eno~gh said I do not want to get involved anymore with the Arts and Culture Centre in Gander, or Grand Falls or Grand Bank for that matter, there has been enough said~ and enough promises made. And I suspect the people will decide for themselves who is right and who is wrong. There is one comment which the bon. member for Grand Falls. the bon. minister for Educat :Lon made which I must take excepti,,n with.

He left me with the impression and I am sure this c0111111ittee, wit1 the impression the .t everything was fine that we have the highroads building in Grand Falls and we have the C.N.R distribution Centre in Grand Falls and we have everything else goi·ng in 53;;1

May 29 1970 Tape 1031 page 7. Grand Falls. Bishop's Falls could take advantage of it, in other words what he is saying is , that Bishop's Falls would become nothing mo~~ than a dormitory town. Now, I am sure that the people of Bishop's Falls will not agree with this because that particular town have a population of about 5000 being people. And by/victims of various circumstances down through the years we have found that the pulp mill which was once a thriy.ing industry there closed down.

We have found that because .of cut-backs in C.N.R during the past few years especially with the curtailment or the discontinuance of the rail passenger,setv.ice, the economy of the town has been effected once again and the people i.n that particular area are interested in the economy of their own town. The growth of their own town. Tljey are not interested in · ~oing to work Grand Falls and obtaini although that is the only place they can get· work they will do it.

I get the impression what the minister said, that it might be Government policy to assume that Grand Falls is the community of interest for the whole of Central Newfoundland and this I cannot agree with, I am sure the people of Bishop's Falls do not agree with, I am sure the people of Botwood will bot agree with it. I am sure the people of Badger will not agree with it, And I believe that the Government should be thinking in terms of the needs of the people and bringing services to the people not in Grand Falls, not in Gander or any other place.

And I want to go on record here as saying that I 8Jil deadly opposed, really opposed and so are the people opposed to the. concept that is making those small towns dormitory areas centred around the so-called or .vhat the minister would like - to have us believe the Metropolis of Grand Falls. I .bave nothing against Grand Falls getting public buildings, getting Arts and Culture Centres and so on and so forth. I believe the other towns in the area certainly deserve consideration, certainly need some action and they are not a interested in __ becoming/ dormitory or feeder to Grand Falls. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Chainnan, I just want to have a word on thf.s vote. I am in complete ~greement with the principle of establishing · Arts and Culture Centres and Recreational facilities right across th~ whole Province. Strategically 5 ~ .. 'l t)~~

May 29 1970 Tape 1031 page 8. located so that they will be eaay accessible to large number• of our population. Now, Sir.we are told that by the year as we progress towards the year 2000, that more people would become unemployed through new technology and automation. As a matter of fact Mr. Chairman, the economists and the statisticians and the experts tell us that by 1985 down in the United States that only two per cent of the population of that great nation will be required to produce all the goods that are necessary for the whole population of the United States.

And correspondingly Sir, this will happen in Canada. We are told I do not know if it ia correct or not, it can be verified, I dtd not make it up. We are told that by the year 2000 in Canada that seventy- five per cent of the population will be paid not to work. But immaterial whether this fizure is correct or not St;, the trend is already established that more people will become unemployed through automation and technology. Therefore, in my opinion, the greatest prob~em of the future is how will people spend their leisure time.

Now, Sir, unless we take steps , to develop Arts and Culture Centres, libraries, recreation facilities, swimming pools, places where people can go for entertainment, unless we are prepared to do this Sir, then I am afraid that our people who will b~ome unemployed in the future will ~ become very dtscontented and disenchanted. We might even become 1Dlcivilized, Sir. We ~it~ become barbariaas unless we can provide people with ways and means to spend their leisure time.

And I c~ think of no better way to do it, than in strategically locating throughout the Province Aru and Culture Centres, ,U.brar~es, swimming pools and the like. The bon. member for St. John's West may question the priority. Well, Sir. I think this should rank among the top priorities, not only of this Province but of all the ~rovinces of Canada. But I want to say this Mr. Chairman, that once we establish these centres that we should never again in this Province contribute towards the building of a swimming pool unless it is heated an enc:losed/swillllling pool.

With the climat:e that we have in this Province I think th:.s is essential. And the bon; Letder of the Opposition agrees with me. 53~3

May 29 1970 lape 1031 page 9. • MR. MURPHY : A waste of money • MR.NEARY: And I think, Sir 1 that this is one consideration that the c011aittee should seriously think about before ever again this Government contributes towards the cost of construction of a swimming pool, that it be an enclosed heated swimming pool. And something else I want to say Sir. I·made a atatement during the winter months that the Curling Cluhs of this Province should throw open their doors to welfare recipients. Now. Sir, some of the hon. members on the opposite side of the House scoffed'at that idea.

I saw no reason Sir, why in my opinion lhat~welfare recipients should not have their own curling bonspiel. What is wrong with that'l 5354

May 29, 19l0, Tape 1032, page 1 apb MR. NEARY: What is wrong with that principle Mr. Chairman1 Why not? Why are not the doors of the stadiums in Newfoundland and all the other recreational facilities thrown open to recipients of eo~ial assistance? MR. CROSBIE: They are thrown open to them now MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, there is a price tag, there is a price tag. These people are in business and for the working poor who have say an average of five in family, for people who are earning low wages, earning below the subsistance income, people on social assistance cannot take advantage of these facilities Mr.

Chairman, because, they do not have the money. Therefore, I would suggest that passes be issued to these people. Now Sir, that may shock some people, it may sound like a major reform, but in my opinion Mr.

Chairman it is something that we are going to have to face in the future and once these arts and culture centres, these libbaries and these swimming pools, and these stadiums, and these curling elubs a~e constructed I would suggest that the doors be thrown open, that there be no barrier to admission and that those on social·assistance, and the working poor that I refer to, people who are just struggling for a living, that they not be barred from going to these centres because you have to have fifty cents or a dollar in your pocket • .

I would suggest Sir, tha~ they be issued passes because, as I said when I stood Ul' Mr. Chairman, the great problem of the future is how people will spend their leisure time. I think that we would be very short-sighted Sir, if we did not take steps now to provide the facilities in this Province for people to enable them to spend their leisure time. MR. CROSBIE: Really! We have to listen to a certain amount of trash in this House, but that iS about the trashiest. How can we ever grapple with the problems of this Province when we have to listen to such nonsens~ as that.

Why do you think these stadiums and arenas and the rest of these

places of public entertainment and so on around the Province have to charge fifty cents and a dollar. They have to ~rge it because they have to meet their bond interest or they have to meet their operating expenses and the rest of it. Now if the Government wants to increase taxation, collect more revenue and pay all the operating costs of the stadiums and arenas and Arts and Culture Centers and the rest of it around this Province, fine. Then we can throw the doors open and nobody will be barred because they do not have the price of admission. But until the Government does that, let us face reality.

And it is not just welfare recipients. Why should it be thrown open to welfare ' rectpients? ~~at about the people who are working who are poor. There are tens of thousands working poor here in Newfoundland who cannot afford fifty cents or a dollar to go these stadtums MR. NEARY: Is not that what I just said? MR. CROSBIE: Well if it is, it is not just welfare recipients it is everyone who cannot afford it. MR·. NEARY: The working poor MR. CROSBIE:.

Right, and the only way you are ever going to throw all those doors open is if the Government takes over all these operating e~enses and then we can throw open the doors of the whole lot. The arts aod culture centres, everything can be thrown open and anyone, even if you do not have a bean can go in. · We can only· do that if this Government raises a few million dollars more in revenue. To make that suggestion without suggesting how it is goin~ to be done is pernicious and mischievous, an electoral sprat. The kind of cheap •lectoral sprats that I am one hundred per cent against.

Yes, we can use arts and culture centres and staduums and arenas and all kinds of buildings in thi8 Province. but unfortunately we cannot afford them. MR. NEARY: Is the bon. member against motherhood too? MR. CROSBIE: If anybody gets up with a cheap plea for motherhood looking for votes, then I will be against motherhood if I think what he is saying ia cheap, ridiculous, political propaganda • 53~6 •

Now I am one hundred per cent for welfare recipients and everyone in Newfoundland being able to go ~verywhere without paying one cent for it. The only question I bring up is, who is going to pay for it and how? Leisure time. Yes, we have a lot of leisure time here in Newfoundland because there are tens of thousands of people who cannot get jobs. If they could get jobs they would have no worries about their leisure time. ~t is the knowing ~r. Chairman, that the minister puts that kind of thing forward seriously AN HON. '1-tEMBER: Carried MR. CROSBIE: No it is not carries, it is not carried, not by a long shot.

It is not carried. Now the bon. minister has not had· a chance yet to answer a couple of serious questions.

We have had to listen to some pie in the skyism, some tunnels from Bell Island to the Mainland kind of argument there, if the minister got up and said that we are going to announce a new Government program, this Government is going to tax the people of Newfoundland several-millions of dollars so that everybody can go in the stadiums, and arenas and arts and culture centres and movie theatres free from now on, then I would say " well, there is a problem and the Government has come up with a solution and is going to take the responsibility of collecting the money from the taxpayer for it.' hear, hear, I am all for it." But, when the minister gets up and says everyone should go in everywhere free if they cannot afford it, ~nd then does not face any of the p_roblems, that is wrong, it is disgusting.

MR. MURPHY: They should not charge for licenses for car or anything like that either. MR. CROSBIE: There are j.ust three questions Mr. minister just to refresh your ~~~e~Ktry. Propably he does not need to be refreshed. You are cutting down the operating expenses of the St. John~s Arts and Culture Centre, you are dropping their staff from ten to seven~ bow are they going to survive that? Corner Brook has cut down its operating expenses over $10,000.,_ there seems to be very disappointing use of the cultural 5357

~ ... - .,. - .,- . . .. - facilities at Corner Brook, just 10,000 people last year, could you tell us something about what the problem is there. Number 3, the Minister of Education did not tell us when the new arts and culture centre is going to open at Corner Brook. If it is before the end of this f~nancial year where is it going to get some money to operate? MR. EARLE: Very briefly Mr. Chairman if I may be permitted. I just cannot resist the temptation on this thing about throwing the doors of stadiums and so on wide open. I would like to say I have the solution for the hon. minister.

There is no problem in this at all. This can be done without the slightest trouble at all. I have seen it happening actually. I was in ¥~scow some years ~go and there is a huge swimming pool there·about, oh it would hold 6,000 people and in Moscow the temp~rature falls to 40 below zero in the winter so that has to be a heated swimming pool, at very extensive heating costs. Now everybody can go to that free surely, but you have of course to support the party before you go there. This may be a stipulation which the Government might make on this side.

You must support the party before you go however, MR. 1-!URPHY: You would have to have your membership card in your walle~ MR. EARLE: I am be.ing fictitious about tbis now, but it is such an amusing argument I had to, I j"ust catmot take this without saying sbme­ thing about it. The fact is· of course, in that country every fellow that buys an ice cream cone or a newspaper or his wife if she carries a load of brick five times a day gp five stories, this revenue goes to the Government.

Perhaps he would like to have his wife carrying bricks up five stories so that he could raise the revenue to operate : stadiUBB free and so on. This is one solution. to this kind of thing and it is not the solution which I think the North American will buy, or I hope not. The only other solution is as my bon. friend the colleague from St. John's West, if this has to be made free and the Goverament must pay for it, let '<JS not waste our time talking abo1lt it, let the Government bring in a policy that they are going to make all the~ things free and that they will raise the taxes accordingly to pay for it. 5358

,May 29, 1970, TApe 1032, Page 5 -- apb This is such a foolish argument it just does not go well. MR. NEARY: The Government does not own the curling clubs MR. EARLE: Well if they do not own the curli~g clubs of course, they will subsidize the admission, the money has to come from somewhere. I think we have really reached the peak, so how about getting down to business Mr. Chairman. MR. FRECKER: If I may attempt to answer the three or four questions asked by the hon. member for St. John's West, he wanted to know Mr. Chairman how ,we could reduce the staff at the St. John's Culture Centre and still operate.

We have reduced it by three, three manual workers posts that were provided for in the beginning and were never filled, and on the recothlllendation of the director of the culture centre we feel that we can continue to operate at least for the time being without filling these posts, or we have just eliminated them and we may later asked to have them put back, but I ~do not think so. Now that was in regard to the staff reduction. Last year we installed a track lighting system at the cultu:e centre and at Corner Brook.

Now that cost $7,500. approximate!y, this is a non-recurring expenditure so we could reduce somewhat there. With regard to what has been spent to date on the Expo buildings I am afraid I do not have the anSwer to that question, tt would have to· come· from the hon. the Minister for Public ~orb. I knwo that a conaiderable amom~.t of work has been done at the Grand Falls one. It looks as if it had taken shape there.

The remarks made concerning the fact, or not the fact, it was claimed that the Government had said they were getting these expo vuildings for praetieally nothing and now we find they are going to cost,very considerably. I do not think it was ever stated Mr. Chairman, that they vere going to cost nothing, but that we vere getting them at a tremendous bargain. If taken into account the cost of demolition, not demolition but br~g dawn, taking them down, because they had been built in such a way that they could be taken down to be brought back to Yugoslavia or 5359

Czechoslovakia or wherever they came from originally and finally it vas decided to put them on sale. An estimate was made at the time and it was found that they would cost, I do not remember the exact amount, perhaps the bon. the member on the opposite side would have that answer. The cos,t of taking them down, transporting them, and rebuilding them, ... very, very considerably less than the estimated cost of putting them in a functional, operatio~l · basis hezein Newfoundland and that is vby we decided to take advantage of the offer. Now the bon. member said that they were temporary buildings.

I think these three buildings were ~n · a different category from most buildings on the expo grounds at Montr~al. They did have permanency involved in them, and they were built so,as I said a minute ago, so that . they .could be taken down and ~· re-tr-:ansported and rebuilt for the use. Now the hon. the Minister of Education has given a general picture of vbat would happen with· the centre at Grand Falls, so I should not take up more time with regard to that. Another question was asked about the opening. I cannot say when these centres will open.

I can say however, that the Government fully intends to carry out its undertaking ~o have these centres operational u soon as circUIIIBtances permit. Another member, it might be the member for St. John's West, or :lt might be the member for Fortune Bay, who WIIDted to know about the ten' thousaud versus the eighty-four thousand. No it vaa Gander probably, the member for Gander. Now, there is a reason for . ~· ... -- ... that, perhaps several reasons but, the theatre at the Corner Brook Centre a~ tea between 254 and 300 people. That is fine for ninety per ceat of the performances that will be staged.

The local performances, that 1a fine for them, but tlrey apparently . do not draw as larg~.:crovds as. say, something like the Pille Folle, the Winbipeg Bailet or the Grand Ballet ~ Canaclien or what have you. 'l'hese especially good performances of national character that do co• into St. John's and the theatre at Comer Brook is not large enough to accommodate them properly. Now I think that is one reuon the nonlllll playa that are put on 5360

'May 29, 1970, tape 1032, Par,a 7 -- apb by the local people attract the good, faithful, interested theatre going group of citizens, but when some of these extra nationally known, or internationally acclaimed performers come to Newfoundland, naturally you would get a greater crowd. For instance, on a lighter note, Gordie Lightfoot comes here and he can stage a program that will carry on for a week and pack the house whilst, the St. John's Players might put on a very; very good play and get good audiences but not like the person who comes in from the outside with an international reputation.

We are very happy ourselves that the swimming should have taken on so well at Corner Brook, and we hope it will continue that way. Furthermore, the arts program for Corner Brook, there is not a regular arts gallery in the Corner Brook centre, but the ·foyer is so designed that it can serve very well for art exhibitions and we hope that "rith the cooperation of the university here which has charge of three of the galleries at the St. John's Arts and Culture Centre, that more and 80re e:xhibitions will be shown in Corner Brook as well as in St. John.'s.

I might mention before taking my seat; that I was very pleased the bon. member for St. John's West referred to the fine work that the director of· our arts and culture centre has been rendering to his nati~e Province. Be is very highly considered on the Mainland I 11ight say~ ve get excellent reports of his s·tanding, and certainly the results are there to be seen locally. He has succeeded in collaborating with the various service clubs like the Kiwanis and the Kinsmen and the Rotary to mention a few. That in itself is a very fine achievement.

I have the highest regard for these service clubs and the services they are rendering to the cultural and social lt.fe of our communi.ty. It is wonderful to see these organizations so actively engaged in sponsoring the very fine nationally know productions that we could not have without the support of these organizations and with­ out the initiative of the director who has a very fine contact with all these organi~tions. I would like to say Mr. Chairman, that no fewer than five hundred 5361

May 29, 1970, Page 8, Tape 1032, -- apb thousand people, practically one for every member of the population of N.wfoundland used the culture centre one way or another during the past year. A very large .~umb~f used the beautiful, r,ally beautiful public library that ia houaed in the culture centre. It ia actually one of the finest ,in Canada today and with regatd to the remark made by another bon. member on the opposite side of the House, that he felt the centre could have been put up at a much less cost, and yet be used •:for the same purposes that it is now used, that is one of these half truths.

It is true, and yet it is not the whole truth. The whole truth is that we have one of the finest cultural centres in all Canada today, universally acclaimed, and that very f~ct will help the growth of cultural activities in Newfoundland by making it attractive for internation- ally . known groups to come here. For instance, at the present time, at the suggestion of the director, we have made tentative approaches to the Cossack Chorus, the internationally known Russian eingers, army choruswlia:might, we hope might, come here.

It is because we have euch a fine centre that we can look forward to having more and better peTformances in St. John's which will be a catalytic element so to apeak, in promoting better effort on the part of local groups as ~ell. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the. item ·carry? MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, just one word. I have not spoken on it at all but the bon. Minister of Social Services went on to stadiums and so on and so forth, I think we are discussing arts and culture centres.

Being rather in the same position as the bon. member, I cannot play a piano, I cannot . or I have not any of those artistic resources perhaps that we would like to have, but when I see this vote and I _think everybody who is in this Bouse in 1964 or 65 know my feelings on how far we should go with arts and culture, and when we discover that the bon. minister juat told us 500,000 people attended, I wonder how many of these people attended fifty times. What I am trying to bring out is to what percentage of the population. Arts and culture or culture ia. itself, I have been there on a 5362

.. _, -.. ~ -· -. --. few ~eeasions, one was a famous loeal play, I think it was the opening of the drama festival, and I was in the culture centre but I wished I had been down on Bowring's Wharf while the thing vas be1ng staged. Quite frankly, to me the thing was absolutely' disgusting. If this is what they call culture and art, well I will stick to baseball. MR. ROWE (F.W.): l-1hat was the name of it? MR. MURPHY: Ah, remember that local one, what was it? MR.. NEARY: "Iomorrow will be Sunday." MR. MURPHY: Is that the one about the clergyman and this kind of tripe! · I just forget any how,.

I forBOt it as a matter of fact MR. NEARY: "Tomorrow will be Sunday." MR.. MURPHY: "Tomorrow." Is that it? It was one of Harold Horwoods was it not? I am not sure now, but it was the opening of the Arts and Culture Centre. I would like at this time to say,a fev short veeks ato AN HOR. MEMBER: Have you ·been to the animal farm? MR. MURPHY: I be~ your pardon Ali BON. MEMBER: Have you visite4 the animal farmt MR. MURPHY: I have never visited the animal farm. 5363

Hay 29th, J.97U . '.L'apu .LU..)..) MR. MURPHY: never visited the animal farm, that comes under Mines and Resources. I was going to bring it up under your vote - MR.·NEARY: Is it not in the bon. members district? MR. MURPHY: Ho it is not. But, Mr. Chairman, quite seriously and that 1a a concert given, I think, a few short weeks ago and I do not know if it is the Newfoundland Symphony or the St. John's Symphony Orchestra and it was really outstanding and I am not in that sense a great music lover as I would rather listen possibly in most cases to my bon. friend's friend, Barry Hibbs.

I am not cultured by any means but I thought it was really outstanding and I am just wondering in any part of our setup, whether it is the Culture Centre itself or not, is there any way that this type of cultural music, if you like, could be promoted and perhaps helped - . " You will get to the subsidies. MR. MURPHY: Subsidy. I did not see anything here and I was just wOndering on this because wh~n I looked at this particular band and I saw from the various areas that this bana was drawn, in other words ther~was three or four who had played originally with Mt.

Cashel Band, you know i~ was not the really long haired type of thing but I really thought it was terrific and that type of thing I thin~ it is wonderful to bring our kids into arid get them interested. I think there were some young ladies and aentleman there fifteeen, sixteen and seventeen years old and the display they put on was really outstanding and I think they should be encouraged to whatever extent we can. I kDaw we have to find 11011ey for other things, perhaps I would be fighting for it for baseball or for athletics and ~ne else waats it for so on and so forth. I have·to aake a comment also on the bon.

Mlnister~s statement about enterillg t .... in eurlin& and the welfare. I think the first big dispute will be Vhat colours they should cho~se fo~ their unifor.a aad what the lettering on the back should be. You know I think these would be very important and what welfare area they actually came from and a&aitting thea to stadiums and what not free, the bon. aember for St. John'• West, I think, put it ill its proper prospective • . Our great St. John's Memorial Stadium, I wrote s~llH1on it and made several eoiiiiDenta on it at the official o}Minill& of that. TIM offiee attended the opening 5364

MR. MURPHY : and I think that famous figure skater at the time was there, Barbara Ann Scott, end the Elkea had to buy the tickets to finance .the orphans visiting the stadium. Now this is a great community project and anybody who foll~s anything in the stadium, the hockey and what not, and has a couple of sons who like to see hockey by the time they get down there it is not the cost of getting in but by the time they block themselves with hot dogs and so on and so forth it becomes a very expensive evening. I might refer·again now,and this is a little personal, to St.

John's Ball Park,right here just a stones throw away from us,that was put there by the efforts of a very few people at a cost of something over $200,000. not costing one cent to Government or Council and it is down there now with all the facilities just lying idle and we talked about - MR. BARBOUR: Do you mean to tell me it cost so 111Uch • . MR.

MURPHY: I't cost something in the area of $200,000. over a period now of about twenty-two years this was put into it and there were chiags being done each y~r, seeding, grassing and paving of driveways and ao on and so forth, erection of stands, lights itself cos~ $40,000, there ia a beautiful concrete dress rooa that coat $28,000. with all the facilities. MR. ROBERTS: Is the lease run out, is it no longer available or what? MR. MURPHY: It is not there becauae the owners of the property are anxious to capitalize on it and build a stadium or a rink for themselves.

Now we were paying $1,500. a year for the use of· the thing which was considerable bul •I aa juat talking about free admission. Our standing order was that anybody who did not have any 1110ney just let them come in. Our fee was twenty-five cents and I r~r we raised it to fifty about seven or eight years ago and a very good friead of aine who vas a Minister in this Bouse who at the time was a sports editor just about cut the legs from under us to think that we expected people to p8J fifty cents to go to see a baseball game.

Now that ball park there was subsidized to bingo entirely, absolutely and there was no help coming from any­ body and it is down there cs 1 ••Y just lJing there now and being destroyed. It would break your heart anybody who had anythiag to do with it. Aif ROR. MEMBER: There ie not . aDJth:ing being done about it. 5365

c,.~ ... .., ..... HR. MURPHY:· That is what I say when the hon. Minister talks about free admission. Where does .oney coae from such aa the ball park for example1 A number of people had to go out and run various events to subsidize the thing and we are not a wealthy enough Province end in the ci"ty of St. John's you have this ball park, perhaps in Grand,.Falls and Gander and we are also fo~getting th~ smaller places aad these are Newfoundlanders and are as .udh entitled to some of these things as the larger centers are.

So it is a great problem and I think it is something through Recreation Commissions that should be worked but where the money is going to come from I do not know but it is an absolute necessity. Arts and Cu.lture Centers, we have over here this one and I do not know what the final cost has been of the thing. I think it wa~ o~iginally $T.s· million and $1~5 million, a fifty-fifty do, bat I think it is gon~,as far -as 1 can understand,over $8. mi1l~on but 1 ..ybe WTODg on that. It is quite a lot of money but the bon. Minister again referred to leisure time and I think it is a big do.

Ve are building a big City Hall, we are not but the City Council is, in the center of the city of St. John's and 1 contacted different councillors and I said, ·~ook you have a tremendous basement there so why not put a swimming pool in it, a covered in swimming pool." They are right there in that area and I will name the streets, ~ybody knows Lime Street, GoodvieW Street where there are more kids per square foot than anywhere else and these kids have to leave the center of the town and walk to Victoria Park or walk to Bannerman Park and how many days swimming do they get in the ~of a year, twenty, tweDty-five.

So these are tkings, Mr. Chairman, 1 must apologize as it is ..,.., from this vote but when 1 think back to two or thne years~a.,, it must be 1968 when the Premier made the great announcement about these great Arts and Culture Centers and they were practically given to us free, 1 do not know but they were gifts, and the cost of construction. Well, it is just a matter of knocking them down and putting thea in crates and carting them in and putting th• on the sites, I think ve 110re or leas got the illpression that Lundri.gan's were doing it u a donation.

It would DOt c:oat -.ucb and ve Dever had a figure 011 tb ... erections but by the t:IJae it ,Yia finished whenever that is • Ve may 5366

May 29.th, 1970 Tape 1033 JM- 4 MR. MURPHY: live to see them all completed. Grand Falla and the Gander one, we may live to see that day. These are things that are thrown out in a great big flurry, a wonderful Government, Arts and Culture Centers here and great recreation centers there and thanks be to God I will say, Mr. Chairman, I think that day is just about gone. I think the people have become a little more practical, less gullible and I think that any Government in suceeding years in this House will not get away with that stuff anymore.

The Premier estimated, this is taken from March 28th, 1968, that it would coat well under $1. million to transport. erect and equip the Czechoslovakian and Yugoslavian pravilions in Grand Falls, Grand Bank and Gander, well under $1. million. MR. CROSBIE: Do you know what the cost is now? MR. MURPHY: No, what is it now? MR. CROSBIE: $3,400,000. MR. MURPHY: And they are not even started yet. MR. CROSBIE: This is the estimate of the vote. MR. MURPHY: Oh! I see. So there ~s the type of stuff but thanks be to God ve have newspaper clippings.

We had. no Hansard but this ill the type of stuff that gets a lot of people into trouble. The hon. Minister particularily I think, you know someone goes out and make.s. a statement, well under $1. million to transport, erect , aud equip, it d~es·not say here that they are going to man them with peraonell for this money but everything but the actual salaries. Bell. Ialand •mber? Oh no, th.is is the Newfoundland supplement, I am sorry.

I va just reading on and how you can lllllke ldstakea as I skipped a paragraph ad then Bell Island member 1 Steve Neary, was responsible for asse~~~bling the Newfoundland secti~n and this is only a supplement to a paper. I missed that p~ragraph as I was carrying right on with th~ Expo warks. So, Mr. Chairman, I would certainly hope that the people of Grand Falls ad Gander will get their great Arta ad Culture Centera or Expo pravilions or whatever n-e thay are going to go under~ 'lb.y ..y call them, it will not be Rowe Houaing it miaht be the Rowe Building that it tD-ght be named in houour of 5367

--, HR. MURPHY: the distinguished member when he perhaps surrenders his stewardship to the district of Grand Falls next election. I think it would make a nice memorial to him and we can call the one at Gander, of course, the Collins Memorial . Center because Mr. Collins will be there for many years.

But we have a very serious situation with regard to Art and Culture and I would like sometime to find out just where our greatest need is, whether it is on culture, drama festivals,so on and so forth or are there many many thousands of our younger people who perhaps could be better looked after and not just indoot swimming pools and recreation centersl AN RON. MEMBER: What about using common sense. MR. MURPHY: That would be a good thing that I think we at best just about arrived now. HR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the item carry? HR. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, I do not want to delay the Committee unneceasarily but there are two points and unfortunately I had to leave the Committee while the bon. member for Gander was speaking, I did not leave it voluntarily but I had some preparations to do in connection with the next estimates to be called which are the Department of Education. I heard part of what he had to say and I thin~ he gave the impression that somehow or another I seemed to think that everything ought to go in the town of Grand Falls and that the other communities should become dormitory towns.

My bon. friend could not have been listening, either he did not understand it or he is misrepresenting what I said. Now what I aaid is this that when it comes to the location of a great facility such as for example and I specify the CNR Distributing Center it does not really make too much difference whether it is in Grand Falls or in Bishops Falls • in this day and age when you are within ten or twelve miles and I say this that whether it goes in Gr~nd Falls or Bishops Falls or for that .atter s0111ewhere in between or in that area every par~ will benefit from it.

My bon. friend knows there are men and women too from Grand Falls and Windsor working in Bishops Falls today and what applies one way applies in reverse, there is nothing to prevent it and people are doing it. In this day and age, the point I made is that if you can put a facility where there is an Arts and Culture 53ti8

-- .- · MR.

ROWE: Center or a Distributing Center or a Highways garage down and you are within fifteen or twenty miles or the work concerned thete is within fifteen or twenty miles of that, with modern highways w~at difference does it make, I have told . thia in Grand Falla, 1 told the people of Grand Falls~ Naturally as a member for Grand Falls I would put in a plea and support any application they might make to have a center, in this case the CNR center,put in Grand Falls or Windsor or in that area the same as my bon. friend would put in a plea to have it put in Bishops Falls or somewhere in his district as that is his duty and it is my duty too, But the told the people of ' Grarid Falla publicly that I did not think it made too much difference anyway where it goes.

If it goes in Bishops Falls the people from Grand Falls and Windsor who are going to work in it are not greatly penalized if they have to get in and spend ten minutes in a ear~ I would say that one-third of the workers in this building spend more than twenty minutes getting to work and I would say that one quarter of them live outside of St. John's altogether.

You only need to do as I do most mornings or will be from now on when the House closes. drive in over that road in ~he morning and see the buses by the dozens picking up people, young men, young women, older people and pouring them in here to this building here and down on Water Street, in the _ stores oli Water Street. They COlle from every part, Upper Gullies. Kelligre.vs, Poxtrap, Seal Cove, Holyrood, they are driving in here every day of their lives and do not miss a day of work from one years end to another.

And for . my bon. friend to try to misrepresent what I said in that way. either I say he was not listening or 1t ia not a very creditable thing for him to do. I say that when you got an area linked up by highways with ten or twelve ailea of first class highway it does not make much difference where you have a facility placed. And if my bon •. friepd knowe anything about the West Coast he should know. over there that the distance between Curling or Mt. Moriah or Petriea and Humbermouth at the other end all of which are in the city of Corner Brook ie greater than the distance from Grand Falls to Bishops Falls.

I am aure that he must know this to that the area between Grand Palls and Bishops 5369 ·'

Kay 29th, 1970 ' Tape 1033 JK - 7 MR. ROWE: Falla - What ia ay bon. friend shaking his head about? MR. COLLINS: (Inaudible). HR• ROWE: I add if - 1 did not aay that. I said that from one extreme of the city of Coraer !rook to the other extreme is a longer distance than it ia from the extreme of Grand Falls to the western extreme of Bishops Falla. My bon. friend is looking at me as if to say it is not true. MR. COLLINS: I am just figuring. MR. lOWE: You are just figuring but does he know where Grand Falls ends in there or the Grenfell Heights ends in Grand Falls or where Bishops Falls starts?

I do and his colleague knows that this is about five or six miles. Well, my bon. friend should not be shaking his head as I have no axe to grind in respe~t to Comer Brook or anything else. But. the fact is that the city of Co.rner Bro~k today from one end of it from the Petrie&, Mt.

Moriah end of it to the Humber- mouth end of it or Steady Brook or whatever it is called over there is further and considerably fqrther than it is from Grand Falls to Bishops Falls. ·In addit:ion, surely he knows this just a8 well as I do anyway, that the Grenfell Bei&bts portion and the old Botwood highway portio~ for several miles is built up in the sa~e way as it is from the end of St. John's out over the Topsail highway here and I predict one way or another, it is only a question of time before that ia going to be a continuously built up area as happened out here.

From an economic stand point Grand Falls, Windsor and the Botwood highway and indeed Bishops Falls, from an economic stand point, are a unit. There is a political division there and there is a municipal division there but from an ecoao.ic atand point what difference does it make. The people from Bishops Falls are working in the mill at Grand Falls and people from Grand Falla and Vind110r are working down in Bishops Falls, not so many of course but it works in reverse and the people of Badger are working in Cullbridge twenty odd miles away from there every day of their lives.

I would say nov that a majority of the workers at Gullbridge are coming from Badger over twenty odd miles::avay and they do not ask to go down and aet up domicile in Cullbridge as they are quite happy,to live in a town like Badger where they have -.menities as sood aa they would have right here and they do not object to their making a half decent 5370

May 29th, 1970 Tape 1033 JM - 8 MR. ROWE: . :. living &'ttting ill their cars in the morning and spending fifteen or twenty • ,. # ainute• in their ears going back and forth ther~. So I hope my bon. friend is not doing that deliberatety what he said, at least the impression I got of it because if he wants me to deal with this matter in more detail and publicly any time at all I am prepared to do it. I .a prepared to do it and if my hon. friends wants to take me up on it he can do it. I have left him alone and I am prepared to leave him alone.

He is looking after his district as best he can and 1 am mine but we do not have try to place one another in invidious positions in matters of this kind. The final point I want to make on this regard is that the establishment of a great Arts and Culture Center no matter where - 5371

May 29th. 1970 'l'ape 1034 PK - 1 MR. F.W. RO\~: where it is, will benefit people living miles away from it. This is a public building in Grand Falls, have benefited people living in Badger, just as the garage has done it, just as this building here. Surely goodness no one would say the,benefits of this building have been restricted to the mumicipa!ity of St. John's.

Surely no one would agrue that the people of Torbay, or Logy Bay or Pouch Cove or Mount Pearl have not benefited from this building here, from being able to come in here and transact all of their Government business in the one centre without, as they used to have to do go .from hell to hack beat, trying to get a motor car license here andr_'trying to get a birth certificate somewhere else, and a shooting license somewhere else. MR. MURPHY: That was a good argument up to a year or so ago, but now we are starting to get out into the real estate business. MR. ROWE, F.W.

That is right, this is right again, because nobody anticipated, perhaps if we had we could not have done anything about it, we might have not been able to afford it, the growth in public administration in this Province here. Nobody anticipated twelve years ago, that we were going to have 7,000 students in .that University. Som~ of us did. Most people did not, they ridiculed the idea, when ~ said we would have 5,000 there by 1970. There were editorials · in the paper talking about the fool Rowe .was, in effect.

He did· not know what he was talking about, 5,000 students in the University, when we only had 400 at that time. However, where are they going to come from? These were the editorials in our papers, and these were the letters in our papers. And today we have 7,100 students over there. And we would have more,, I suppose, if we had the facilities. Just one other thing, Mr. Chairman, I know I am delaying the House on this thing, I want to say this the other night, the 53 'l 2

May '29th. 1970 TApe 1034 PK - 2 MR. ROWE, F.W. night before last at a dinner here given at Holiday Inn for the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association, and I suppose attending and more were visitors to this Province. And after the dinner we were entertained by ·a local group, the Sanderlings they were, just a small group, seven L think in the group there. That group put on a performance which _would have done credit to any community anywhere in the world, and they are not alone in ·this. AN HON. HEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE, F.

W.: No, I am speaking of the group the other night, the small group who sang at the Hockey Dinner, so much so, indeed that the audience almost went h~sterical, and they were sto~ped by force, ypu might say because a lot of the guests there stood up, and got in their way, ·in their endeavours to g~t them to go back and perform ag-ain, and they did go back and perf_orm again, and this is not unique, the same thing has happened, and I have heard it happen in Grand Falls. I have heard it happened in Buchans, it has happened I am sure in Gander, .. Lewisporte, etc.

The other night we opened a school, a couple of weeks ago we opened a school in on Foxtrap excessroad, and sixty boys and girls from Topsail to Seal Cove were there with a band, each one with an instrument, and . that band, sixty of them, would again have done credit to any community in Canada. And if anyone had told me, even ten years ago·, and I know this area pretty well, .

X spent a good deal of my time there, that these same youngsters that I knew there, growing up there, that they would,in the what was a wilderne~s, in a modern high school would be performing there in such a way, as to do credit to any community in Canada, if anyone had told me that even ten years ago, I would have thought he was just off of his head. It could not happen. This was happening -

May 29th. 1970 Tape 1034 PK - 3 AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE, F.W. I know that, I know it is not just a question of the talent, I know as much about the talent of our Newfoundland people, as the hon. member does, I have been here al~ng time. I have b~en here over three hundred years, he should remember that. We have groups like the Terra Novans, we have the St. John's Extention Choir, we have the Cants~ry Singers, we have the school choirs out here, I know you run a risk, when you start naming these, yo~ have them in virtually every school now. MR. SMALLWOOD: Culture, right up to your eyes in it. MR.

ROWE, F.W. You have them in virtually every school. To go and listen to tRat band in the Salvation Army College up here, would do any?ne good. The thing is, Mr. Chairman, we have this talent, it is a question of providing the opportunity. And. I would say now, and I repeat, and I said it before, that we cannot live by roads, and water and sewerage, and electricity alone, and we should not expect our boys and girls and our · people to live by these things alone. MR.

WILLIAM CALLAHAN: Before the committee passes this Head, one or two things, I think, should be said, ~ith reference particularly to the comments of my hon.· friend~ the Leader of the Opposition. If I did in fact attack him for increasing the prices at the St.

JOhn 1 s Ball Park, ~erhaps I had good reason, certainly I would have equally good reason now to say that he really should not suggest that all that has been done is to build Arts and Culture Centres, and leave the recreation side to be. · I was at the CAr~ Dinner with my hon. colleague, the night before las~ also, and had the pleasure to speak there, and one of the things that I felt it nacessary to say, was that when I began sports writing for newspapers, which is not really very long ago, there was one stadium in this PDOvince. Only one 5374

May 29th. 1970 Tape 1034 PK - 4 MR. CALLAHAN: ·artificial ice arena. There had been one prior to that, the Prince's Rink which was burned, and at that point in 1948, there was one narnely,the one in Grand Falls. And now well they are commonplace, we have them in .virtually every major community. MR. BARBOUR: Bonavista. MR. CALLAHAN: And I think not more than one or two of those that exist nm~, particularly I am thinking now outside St. John's, I am not thinking of the Club set up in St.

John's, there cannot be any more than one or two o'ut of, what is it eighteen or twenty arenas that now exist, excepting only the two or three in St. John's put up by Athletic Associati9ns, that have .not been enabled, both assisted financially and enabled by guarantees by the Government. And that I think, as my hon. friend will agree is a bit· of a revoluti:on. Most of this eame lorig~r-before there were any Arts and Culture Centres, as well. The other thing I think that needs to be said is this, Mr.

Chairman, that my hon. friend cannot have it both ways, there: are·tw~ choices, either the Government provide facilities out of public funds entirely, or they must be provided by the communities, or perh~ps it can be done jointly with s·ome enabling help, such as the guarantees that have been given. But I would hate to s~e the time come,when citizens, such as my hon. friend and others, who have indeed worked extremely hard and deserve very much credit for what has happened, I would hate to see the day come, when that was no longer the case.

I think it is dangerous, it is unhealthy to suggest, to.hold that everything that is done,shou~d be done by the Government. I think, unless there are people and organizations in communities, who are prepared to improve their own situation or to put something towards it, as my hon. friend has done for a good many years in St. John's, the essential value 53~ 1 5

May 29th. 1970 Tape 1034 PK - ~ MR. CALLAHAN: of these things will not really accure. ~P?- I think too MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. CALLAHAN: I am sorry. MR. MURPHY: I think in a lot of cases .••• MR. CALLAHAN: I think so, I think people have to put something into it, and the other night at the CAHA, when Walter Clarke from .Grand Falls, and a gentleman from Vancouver, were given these special awards, and thereby automatically became members of the Canadian Hockey Hall of Fame, it was not simply a gratuitous thing, it was done on the bases, in Mr.

Clarke's case, twenty- three years of very considerable effort as Secretary/Treasurer of N .H.A. And you know, if the day ever l:comes ,_ which please God it will not, that people such as l1r.

Clarke or the Leader of the Opposition or so many other people that_ I have known, who made things happen in the Atheltic side of things, and others who are making ~hings happen in other sides of things.for the total benefit of the community, if the day comes, when we lose that ini_tiative, and if what really happens is that Government, as Gove~ent steps in or has to step in, and replace, I think we will be in pretty sad shape. But, I do not think, my hon. friend can have it both ways.

He cannot on the one hand say, that the Government should be doing these things, and on the other hand say, you know people have been doing it .themselves, and should continue to do so. I think, perhaps you would have to have both. MR. HURPIIY: I mean these people are doing these things voluntary, . ~~ I know many hundreds. And I think they need assistance to do that. MR.

CALLAHAN: I would agree with a little assistance, and this is why I say that to use the best example, I agree, it is the best example, all these artificial iGa rinks that have gone up, with the few exceptions that I have mentioned, have been put there by the assistance of the Government.

· May 29th. 1970 Tape 1034 PK - 6 MR. CALLAHAN: The other thing that should be said, Mr. Chairman, in addition to some of the remarks that have been made about the Arts and Culture Centres, is this; we have had n~w a pretty major development in respect of our University, as my hon. · f£iend the Minister of Education has just said. I remember the President at the time, Dr.

Gushue making a statement I think in 1959 ,. when there I believe were 650 students in the University on Parade St., a tongue in ch~ek statement, ! . suppose, but really with some underlying seriousness, that the University at that time, the buildings needed to ~e painted. But, if they were to put on a coat of paint, they would have to let go fifty students, because the place was that much overcrowded.

We now have a situation where several thousand young Newfoundlanders have graduated with degrees from· the University, have been•'exposed to, if you like, higher culture in various forms, and they will not be satisfied, Mr. Chairman, to put up with or to accept what the generations prior .to them were prepared to accept. The~r appetite has been wetted for something better in terms of entertainment or in terms of their cultural development.

And . if we do not provide the facilities for that, and I think this is a kind of thing that cannot be done, at least in terms of facilities by local effort on its own, if we do not provide these kinds of facilities, we will not hold these yo~ng people who are demanding so much more. And secondly, we will not attract:!here the kinds of people whom we have been attracting, who are the ones who are wetting the appetites of our yo~ng people.

And I refer particularly to the faculty and to the various professional people, who are so necessary to the development of the Province, and particularly to the development of the people of the Province. So, (

a) we will not attract good people to come from other .places, where they have 53'~7 I. I I

May 29th. 1970 Tape 1034 PK - 7 MR. CALLAHAN: these things, and we will not satisfy the newly created appetites of our own young people, who are so better equipped and so better educated and who have this new appetite in them for these things. So we have to provide these things, because as I think has been said, jobs alone, and highways al~ne, are not enough it must be an attractive place for all sorts of people, so we have to proV.ide all sorts of things. And while I agree that recreation in the sense of organized recreation and the facilities that go with it is very necessary.

It is only in the final analysis, really appeals to a segment of · the population, there are other segments, and one of them is the growing number of people who are demanding cultural facilities and cultural activ~ties, such as we cannot have,. unless we provide the kinds of facilities that are being discussed under this Head. I think, this is a many sided approach that has to be taken, but realistically it is not enough, while it is not enough to provide just jobs, or just roads, so it is also not enough to prove physical recreational facilities, you have to have the other things too.

And the whole powt.•of my comment is, that we have in fact provided in very large measure in this Province, and when I say, "we", I mean the peopie of this Province have equipped themselves over a very few years with a quite massive recreational plant, and we have no choice but to similarly,equip ourselves with a massive cultural plant, because we have to satisfy that side of our peoples need as well. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, just a few short remarks, in connection with the blistering and scaling attack by the hon. the Minister of Education.

I would like to make a few remarks on what he said,' he compares or contrasts, if you will, the city of Corner Brook, which is mad~ of the municipalities, the old , 5378

May 29th. 1970 Tapa 1034 pk - 8 MR. cOLLINS4 municipalities of Corner Brook East, West, the Townsite and Curling, neither one of those older communities are more than, to use the Newfoundland term, more than a gun shot apart. It is a vastly situation, Mr. Chairman, from what have or would obtain from Central Newfoundland in terms of Grand Falls and Windsor, and Bishop's Falls and Badger and Botwood. Bishop's Falls has a town council, which is a very aggressive town council. Grand Falls, Windsor,-Badger and Botwood also have a town council, which are aggressive and determined to ensure that their communities continue to exist. Now 5379

May 29, 1970, Tape 103~Page l -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: The hon. minister mentioned when he was talking about arts and culture centres, and I have no argument there, we are not going to have an arts and culture centre in every town in Newfoundland there is no need for it. The arts and culture centre in Grand Falls could very well s~rve the people of the surrounding areas, the towns which I just mentioned. The Department of Highways with their fairly substantial depot for road construction and so on and so forth, naturally we are not to have one of those in Bishops Falls and Botwood and other places.

Sir, the point I was making, and I think I am justified in making this, Bishops Falls is a town of 5,000 people. I have said on numerous occasions in this Bouse that . some years ago the future of the town was not looking too bright because of the fact that the pulp mill there more or less phased out of operation. To add insult to injury, a couple of year~ ago the railway decided to relocate their dispatching office which employed ten or twelve males, ten or twelve family men. They decided to re-establish that in St. John's because of the advances made in communications they found that this was feasible.

Then with the discontinuance of the rail passenger service people in the town became very worried because the vbole reason for the existence of the town at that particular time was because of the railway Qperation because they provided many jobs. There has been some curtailment, some loss of jobs because of that, and of course with the new look in term of C.N.R. operations now they are looking toward establishing rail distribution centres and there 1a one to be established in central Newfoundland.

I would say Sir, that all other things being equal from an economic point of view, and I see no reason why they are not equal in te~s of Grand Falls and Bishops Falls depending on where it was located, but I have the feeling that the C.N.R. have a responsibility to the people in Bishops Falls to maintain whatever they can in terms of operations and jobs in that particular town. My reason for this Sir is this. The town of Bishops Falls, the community Council or the Town Council as I said, are strivine to pet industry and get jobs to preserve the town. We cannot blame them for that. 5380

May 29, 1970, Tape - 1035, Page 2 -- apb I am all in favour with them and I am sure that the hon. minister is in favour with them. To say that it does not make any difference where this distribution centre is located whether it is in Grand Falls or Bishops Falls is a little ridiculous in my way of thinking because, we all know that w~ere jobs are people will commate. I am willing to agree with the minister on that basis, but, we find that if people keep commuting year after year you will find that gradually some of the p~ople will decide to relocate, to move where the jobs are.

I can see that if that is permitted . . to happen in this particular area in ten or fifteen years a great many people in the Bishops Falls area, will, because of a lot of factors decide to move out. What do we have in Bishops Falls then Mr. Chairman? We have possibly a shack town with a town council which finds itself unable to operate because they have lost the main source of their income, tbe revenue, property taxes.

They have lost it because people have moved.out, and I was quite pleased a while ago to hear the hon. the Premier say that he had looked at this particular project and I gathered from what he said that he was in favour of this centre going to Bishops Falls as opposed to Grand Falls. Now, I made reference to a dormitory area,and while the bon. minister did not me~tion that fact, we all know that if we had carried on in terms of ~the was.saying,where people were going to commute back and forth from Bishops Falls to·Gr~nd Falls, · .

Bishops Falls could become nothing more than a dormitory area, and that Sir we cannot accept and must object to what the bon. minister said. MR. ROWE(F.W.): Without delaying further on this thing I would say that the arguments, the points made by the bon. member for Gander are of course quite valid. I for my part wanted t~ stress the fact that when I said it did not matter too much in my view where it was, I meant that to apply both ways.

It did not matter too much one way or the other and the very fact is that my bon. friend must know that I was one of those who supported the est~blishaent of the power headquarters at Bishops Falls. I was one of 5381

Hay 29, 1970, Tape 1035, Page 3 -- apb the ones who supported that. . .. The very fact is that in that power headquarters at Bishops Falls there are people from Grand Falls and Windsor working at this moment, driving back and forth illustrates, • well illustrates the point that 1 was making, that from an economic standpqint, a standpoint of work I do not think it matters too much whether that power establishment was. at Bishops Falls where it is, or whether it was put somewhere else five or ten miles away.

The fact is, that the people of that area, it is an economic unit there, but I would not want anyone to get the impression that I 1n my selfishness was trying to deprive any town, Bishops Falls or any where else of~legitimate aspira~ion, of its legitimate needs. I would not do that. The fact of the matter is that Bishop Falls is a t~ which has in mY view a continuing future. It is growing in spite of the vicissitudes and the setbacks it has continued to grow this last ten years, much bigger than it was even ten years ago. I for my part am only too happy to see that.

The bon. gentleman may kaow too that I was under some criticism from certain quarters, ·some of his friends perhaps to the fact that in the DREE program nothing specific was listed for Grand Falls or Windsor. ~ did no~ hesitate to come out publicly and say that the BREE program takes in the· area as an area. My own conviction was . and is that the greatest single need in that area is a new water supply for the town of Bishop Falls. Did my bon. friend know I said that publicly?

The greatest single need in that area, in the Grand Falls, Windsor,Bishop Falls,Botwood, Lewisporte area was a water supply for Bishops Falls and that 1 supported its inclusion in the DREE program. I think that should go on the record~ In respect of roads, I said that the greatest single •••••••• . MR. CHAim!AN (Noel): We are really going off now, I cannot see the relev~cy of this Bishops Falls- Grand Falls bit anyway here, but ••• ~· C~SBIE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a few words before we conclude this section. 5362

May 29, 1970, Tape .1035, Page 4--apb Firat I would like to thank the Minister for the way he handled his estimates and he has been most cooperative. There is just one,· he is going to get us some information on the Bulletin which he promised, the break now, but otherwise the minister has been very coopera~ive and of course everyone in this House knows he is a real gentleman. Just in conclusion on this item Mr.

Chairman, I do not think that the Government or this House should ever get in the position where it feemthat the House or the Goverment is responsible for what productions are put on at the arts and culture centre. There about an hour ago when we were being relevant, there was some mention of "Tomorrow will be Sunday." The Leader of the Opposition, and I know other members in the House did not think mUCh of that play when it was ~ut on at the arts and culture centre. The topic of the play, or a large P.art of the topic of the play was about