VOL. 1 NO.l3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, JULY 31, 1979 .? I r '

July 31st. ,1979 Tape No. 429 DW - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Order, please! The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and NOrthern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege, Is this the app.rOp:l:iate time,I "WOnder1 to do it? MR. S. NEARY: Is it a privilege of the House or personal privilege"? MR. GOUDIE: Well, I am not quite sure if it can be classified as pr~vile<;e of the House or personal privileqe. A personal privileqe, I would think,would be the mOl::e appropriate term to use. MR.

NEJI..Rr: That is goinq to be handled by the committee. MR. GOUDIE: No, that is the other point that may have to be clarified; Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: oh, oh! MR. SPEA.ICER: Order, please: Ron. minister. MR. GOODIE: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege arising from a quotation attributed to 1118 during a meeting of canmi ttee yesterday m::irninq. I assume I can raise this point of privilege in the r.on. House of Assembly. I do not think you can. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Your Honour, I have no objection at all to the- MR. SPEADR: A point of order, the hon.

Opposition !louse Leader MR. E • l!OBER'l'S·• Mr. Speaker, t.ne hon. ql!ntleman has not made a point of privilege. If he were making one. I had no right to interrupt him. ' MR. NEARY: Let him finish. MR. SPEAKER: order, please! MR. E. ROBERTS: He beqan by ~ying, Mr· Speaker, that he was raising a point of something that happened in committee. And I simply wished to remind Your Honour, as I think Your Honour is. f->1lly aware, that a matter cannot be raised in here until. it has b~ raised in the committee and the cOiilmittee 1CSO · ' ::( t I

July 31st ., 1979 Tape t-/o. 429 OW - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: must report to the House -. That i? the way I Ul).der- stand it works. I have po wish to bloclc the han. gentleman raising any every hon • .lllember would. MR. 'SPEAKER (.SIMMS) : OJl the point of order, I think I will a allow the hon. minister to raise his point of privilege and then I will make a ruling as to whether or not it is in order. Han. minister • MR. GOODIE: .Mr. Speaker, my point of privilege relates to the front page story in the Daily News as of this morning.

The headline reads 1 and hon, liiE!IIIbers may all have read it, "People do not feel they have to repay • One in three d.efaul t loans." And I go on to quote from the article, .Mr. Speaker, "Asked by .Mr. Ba=ett to give reasons for the high rate , Mr. Goudie said, 'Philosophy is a very large ~rt of it.' "lie sai d many people consider a gOV'ernment loan as s0111ething to be written off. " That is not an 'accurate s.tatement and when the minutes of the meeting are printed I thillk it will be obvious what the

article is suggesting to me as a minister is that I ;un attributing motives to anyone who <!-PPlies a1'id receive ·a loan fr0111 the Department of Rur'!-1 D.evelopment. A COIIIPletely · wrong, completely false motive attributed to me, and there a:r;e other members of the committee whOIII I have spoken to this 1110:min9 who _agree with the points that I make. I do not know if it is appropriate to ask that the DailY News or tlJ,e appropriate persoa- Susan Newhoo_k is the name on the

article here in the Daily News -to ~tJB,ke the appropriate correction because I think it is goinq to da!Dage any relationship that the depart~~~ent may have had with people who have already obtained loans and people wh.o may wish to obtain loans. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I thank the hon. minister, In my opinion I would have to - MR. F. !,lOWE: Mr. SP!!aker. MR· SPEAKER: The hon. member for ~inity-Bay de' Verde 1091 .f ' :.{ t ) .. .. , '•( f

July 31st . , 1979 Tape No. 429 DW - 3 MR. F. ROWE: Mr. speaker, I assume that Mr. Speaker has ruled that this is a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS!: No, I am about to rule. MR. F. ROWE: May I just comment on that, Mr. Speaker? May I speak to it? SOME KON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: No, I think if the hon. member would take his seat I am prepared to make a ruling at this stage. I would not determine that that is a point of pti vilege. However, 1.G92 y ,

July 31, 1979, Tape No . 430 NM - l MR. SPEAKER (Simms): it is obviously a point of clarification on a matter relating to What someone may have saJ.d, or attr:umted to the han. minis'tei- and I woulq not consider it to be a point of privilege as such but rather a clarification of comments attributed to the hon. minister. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, may I raise a further point of order? This is the firs ,t time this type of matter has arisen. We are in the habit, as Your Honour knows- I think it is improper but, so 'what?

I mean ,it is !lOt lltY view that counts:- but we are in the habit of ~~telllbers who feel they have been lltisquoted using the !louse in an effort to try to correct a quotation through a so-called point of privilege. But' that is not the point here. The point here is that what the han. gentleman is raising happened in Colltlltittee. I do not question for a moment the hon. gentleman's version of what happened in Colltlltittee • Indeed, I~ understand my friend frO!II Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) who was at the Cc:ll$itte, you lrnow, woul ,d say the same tl).ing.

But the fact remains, Sir, that it is not proper, and I do not think we sl>.ould set a precedent without at least arquing the matter and Your Honour making a ruling. It is !lOt proper to raise a ~~tatter of privilege based on something that arises in a committee: it is not proper to raise it here in this House unless it has first been dealt with in the Committee and the Committee reports to this House ,, and that I think is an ~mportant point of principle. I would refer Your HOllDur to

section 76 in the red Beauchesne, the fifth edition,which says simply, and I will read it in it,s entirety, Mr. Speaker, "Breaches of privilege in colltlltittee may be dealt with only by the House itself on report from the committee." AIIci I think the important words for the purposes here are, "on report from the collllllittee." I think unless we wish to change our rules we should reaffirm that point so that the practice is clear and if matters do arise now that we have committee that they are dealt with in the tight and proper way. 1093 J 'I

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 430 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. President of the Council. 1-!R. Ml\RSI:IALL: On that point of order, ~1r. Speaker, I would concur with the citation just read to Your Honour with respect to it. The minister rose on a point of privileqe,which is the normal way in which we have done it in the past in connection with a newspaper report even though it i .s not strictly a point of privilege, but a point of clarification as Your Honour has said.

But because committees are new to the Hou.sE> in the nature i n which they are now,I think it is perfectly understandable; this is why the bon. minister rose . But I think it is quite c.!.~ar for guidance in the future that breaches of privilege in Committee may only be dealt with by the cotnmittee and then if the committee decides that there has been a breach of privilege then they report to the House and the Bouse decides as to bow it is going to deal with it.

That is the procedure which should be ,utopted,I would suggest ,in the future but I think as all hon . members will realize because of the committee system and the way it is now it is pe.rfectly understandable that the hon. minister would get up at this time because this is the way. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please ! I would tend to agree with both hon . members and would tend to rule that 1094 r r .. , ··.( f .f I

J\lly 31,1979 Tape No. 431 AH-1 NR.SPEAXER: (SilllliiS) these cases, as stated by the han. IIIE!lllbers. ci tinq Beauchesne, S.ection 76, would be perfe .ctly in order. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.JAMIESai: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the M.ini5ter of Fisheries (W.Carter), welcominq hila. back ftom his sojoilrn in Ottawa ., I believe it was.

Clearly, and we are talkinq here, I qather ,about newspaper reports about which there is no question of their accuracy, namely, that the Minister of Fisheries of New Brunswick, r believe it is, l!a.s called for an outright ban on all salll\on fishing off the coast of Newfoundland. May I ask the hon. minister is that in fact what happened yesterday and how does he feel about that particular recommendation or demand on the part of New Brunswick and what will the posture of the Newfoundland Government be? MR. SPEAX!;R: The hon. minister.

That is basically What the han. minister from New Brunswick proposed to the jneetinq, to the federal m:!.n,i.ster and others, that there be a ban imposed on the co~rcial and sports fishinq in te%111s of salmon fishinq 1 and that othe·r restrictions would be illlposed as well. I can cmly assume that the hon. minister was actinq in qood faith and 1 obviously 1 on the basis of infonnation supplied to him by people in his department and others. Certainly, for my

part I am not convinced that that kind of std.qent action is necessary. If, of course, it is found that only a total ban will save the salmon 1 well 1 tlten of .course we will have to qive s9M very serious thought to a total ban. But certainly I have to be provided with a lot mere scientific, bioloqical info=ation before I could recommend to my colleagues in Cabinet that we follow suit , at least fo.llOW the adVice or the reeommendation made by the fede ·ral lllinister. And that, Mr.Speaker, I presUIIIe 1will be the position of our government. We recoqil.i.ze there is a problem. We know that 1095 :.t t ' f l

July 31 ,1979 Tap e No . 431 AH-2 the salmon catches are down 1but we get cOmfort frQlll the knowledge , Mr. Speaker, that the reduction in the sa.llnon harvest from four and one half to two and one half million pounQ!I, for example, in 1978 and 1977 1 and I believe around that fiqure this year 1 that is not at all out of line with the harvest that occured in the Province back in the forties and the fifties.and in fact even earlier. So it might well be this is a cycle and that there is no real cause for concern.

But certainly we are looking at it and 1I repeat 1 the mc:lment we area supplied with info.rmation to the effect that the minister in New Brunswick is in fact accurate in what he is saying 1 well then we will have to think about it and act on it. MR. JNnESON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. Well, Mr. speaker, it certainly does not auger wel.l for the new era of great co-operation between the four fishing Atlantic Provinces when at their very first meeting we find that the Newfoundland and New Brunswick lllinisters are di<BDetrically opposed to each other, or appear to be in any event.

But in regard to the qualifications which the hen. 1C96 t I t I ' ~.

July 31, 1979 Tape 432 EC- l . MR. JAKUSON; to the qualifications which, the hon • ministe:c has put upon his answ~r, nUJelY, that if it il> shown that a ban 'a ban if necessary but not necessarily a ban • - but obviously, what is clearly goinq to happen in this ease is that it is go~q to arouse, obviously aqain, concezn as to thill liwl.ibood of the fishermen, parti.c:ularly on the Newfoandland. ceiast, tha.t a ban conceivably could. be in tlle woJ:Its.

I want to ask the minister if he has in those C:irCUIIIStanees either alreacl.y mad.e :tepresentations to his federal colleaque that some forJD. of compensation be paid. to fishermen who for one reason or another lose the livelibood. out of the salmon catch or,if he has not done so, will. he now and.ertake to the House to do just that? MR. SPEA!CER: (SiDDs) '1'ha hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARIER: Mr. Speaker, let me firs .t of all clear up the prealllble to the bon. gentleman's question that certain.ly there is no d.isaqreeliiOJlt.

While I think the minister in New Brunswick appreciated. the position that :I took. at the meetinq, I certainly appreciate his. We left as gaod friends as we met.

I c=an only as.sUIIIit that he is act.in9, like I said, on the best advice possible and what he thi.Dka is in the best: inte~ts of his fishermen 7 and I shall do likewise, Certainly in teJ:BB of eompenaation 1 we did discuss that, but I suspect it is a rather hypothetical question right now, because there has bean no decision made to p'ltt a ban on sal.laon fishinq or to do anythinq else. 'lhere is a suqgestion, of coU%Se- and this, I supp<)S!I!, started Allllost: since the bec;inninq of tima - by New Br:unswiek. fishexmen that Newfoandlandars New Brunswick., but like I said, What else is new? 'l.'hat has ~ a Cbarqe levelled at the Newfoandland fishe:men al.mDst since day oae.

I do not acQept the position - certain.ly not the fiqu%8s quoted by the lllin.i.ster. Aqain, the advice I am gattinq "'uld.. indicate that: there is far lu.s would h.aTe Wi think there is, for .x.mple, on the basis of the figure submitted. But aqain, it is ~g that we will. look. at. and we wiJ..l 1097 .f

July 31, 1979 Tape 432 EC- 2 MX. W. CARrER: not be 1:1nreasonable. we are as conservation- minded as ;mybody else and we will do what has to be dOne • .!o'.r. Spa~~er, 3. f=--..!:!er supplementazy • HR. SPEAKER (SiJIIIils) A furthar svpplemenQ:ry, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. JAMIESON: No one 1a attempW.q at all to dimi.nish t.be seriousness of the problem, but it seems to - also - and I would like to ask the lion. lllini.ster this question -that there :is SOJDe necessity here for rapidity of dacisi.on.

For example, hon. members opposite, as well as some on this aide, haw been ~ thai:. liQenc:inq proceduzas be expanded not only in other foDIII of fishinq, but restric:tions on sa:J.m.cm. lic:ences 1 far instance. 1G98 t I t I

July 3l, 19 79 Tape No. 433 so - l MR. 0. JAMIESON: Now, for this season it is clearly probably past the crucial. point.

But is it likely, may I ask the bon. minister, that this issue, frOm his experiences of yesterday a.Jld perhap .s other meetings,that it will be resolved well enough in advance of the season of next year that one o.f bic things will happen, either that there will be a clearly spelled out licencing policy or1 if there is not going to be such a licencing policy and elq)ansion and there is going to be a ban, that somethill9' will be put in place in lots of time before we get into a very dicey and very di.fficul:t situation in the Spring? MR. SPEAKE~: (Si:mms) The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W.

CARrER: Yes, I am confident that the .new minister will, in fact, take whatever action i .s necessary to bring this thing to a ·bead. In fact, I kllow he is detumined to take a hard look at the whole broad spectrum o.f licencing, especially salmon lic:encinq,and other matters too pertaining to the salmOn .fisheries. so answering your qll.estion, Mr. Speaker, the question o.f the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. 'o. Jamieson) , I am cqnvinced in my mind that whatever action is necessary will be taken before the next season, next Spring. MR. F. BOWE: Supple~~~enta.ry, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEA!CER: SupplBDenta.ry, the bon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. RPWE: Mr. Speaker, you lalow there is no doubt about the fact that there is a problem with respec:t to the salmon stocks and I do not swal.low for one minute !lr. Bird' s conclusio11 that the problem is because we are interceptinq the salmon here in Newfoundland.

I was wondering if the minister has made any initiative,or in his discussions with his federal. counterpart in Ottawa over the last ccullle of days 1 ha.s any idea when the Federal Government will be sitting down with the United States and with oe:nmark to consider the c:.atchinq ot the salmon 1G99 -,.---- :.t

July Jl , 1979 Tape No. 433 SO - 2 l.ffi. F. ROWE: off G~eenland? As I understand it, app~ox.il!iately 50 per cent of the salmon that usually spawn on the Eastep~. sea boam in Canacia are indeed caught off the coast of Greenland.. I was wondering if the minister could iiidicate what progress has been made to identifying that particular problem, what initiatives he is taking to try to get these negotiations going on between tlle Federal Government and the United States and Dezmark in that respect? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, that is a question that would be better asked the federal minister, but I think I can answer it; in

part in that that is a conc.ern of the Federal Gover:mnent. In the matter of the Greealand situation, the fac:t that salmon distant for canadian rivers a.ai waters are intercepted by fishexmen off Greenland., that is something tbat is beinq looked at very closely and I qet the feeli~ that it will be part of an overal.l approach, a packaqe approa:dl.,as you llliqht call it, to the whole proble~~~s of the salmon fishery a.ai the suqqestion that it is being dep.le~. I suppose the federal. minister wuld be anxious to be in a pOsition to demonstrate to the wrld and to the Greenland people that Canada has got its bouse in order in ter111s of proper 1.:100 .7 ' t ' ..... r '

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 434 NM - 1 MR. W. CARTER: conservation measures, a reduction maybe in the number of licencts and so on. And chen,of course,! am sure that the necessary approaches will be made to the countries concerned. But in answering tile question, yes, that is very much on the minds of tile federal authorities, especially the federal. minister. MR. E'. ROWE: A furcher supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A further supplementary, the hon. member for Trini~y-Bay de Verde. !o!R. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries over the past number of years ha.s been advocating greater jurisdiction, if not toul jurisdiction by Newfoundland and Labrador over the matters pertaining to the fisheries in this particula_r Province and his counterpart now in Ottawa seems to have rejected that particular policy or philosophy and is calling for greater consultation. We have seen the results of consultations amongst the Atlantic Provinces over the past couple of days and we have already had a flare up over the salmon ..J situation.

I was wondering now if the present provincial Minister of Fisheries has changed his policy or philosophy or ideas with respect to having greater jurisdiction for the Province over matters pe~ininq to the fisheries and can now see the reason •.rhy we need a strong central federal presence in matters pertaining to the fisheries as long as we do have,of course,that necessary consultation? MR. SPEAXER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. speaker, my views on the question of jurisdictio n has not changed. I still believe that the Province should have greater jurisdiction over the fisheries.

Certainly the matter of consultation is somethign that is needed and I am ba_ppy to tell the House now that our wishes in that regard appear to have been heard and the federal minister is quite willing now to consult . In fact, I repeat I have spent more time with the new minister in Otta wa the ;;>ast four weeks than I did with the previous minister in Ottawa for four years. ·~ ~·. :.t t ~ , . 110:1

J uly 31, 1979 Tape No. 434 NM- 2 :.!R. W. CARTER : The results of our meetings a.nd the new attitude that has elller<Jed I am sure will be quite evident over the nea= future in terms of fishery development, fisheries policy, the matter of jurisdiction, consultation. We have a very good rel.atianship and1 Mr. Speaker ,it is refreshing to be able to pick up the phone and call your feder<~.l. counterpart and to at least have him do the same thing when he is seeking your advice or - MR. JAMIESON: He says no with a smile. MR. W. CARrER: No. No. That is not the case, Mr. Speaker.

I k."low how it must grieve the hon. members ' opposite to see this kind of relationship develop. They are not 115ed to that kind of pehaviour 1 of course MR. MORGAN: That is right. They are not 11Sed ·to it over there. MR. W. ~: - on the ~t o£ federal ministers, and ! say that with great respect to the former Minister of External Affairs, but certaWy they are not used to having that kind of dialogue with certain ministers in the House, ministers who are i.roportant as far as Newfoundland is concerned. MR. SPEAKER (Si.roms) : one final. supplementary, the hon.

"l!lelllPer for Trinity-Say de Verde, then the member for LaPoile, then the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. . Speaker, when we ask questions of the MiniSter of Fisheries,we do not want to near how refreshing the meetings were and hOw cordial they were and how congenial they ware, -..-e want answers to the questions that we are asking. MR. JAMn:SON: What kind of mJisic did you play? MR. F. ROWE: Nor what kind of music you played or what was c onswned. 1.102 I ' .,

J'uly 31,1979 Tape No . 435 AH-1 MR.F.ROWE: I wonde~ if the ministe~ could indicate to the House, M~. Speaker, what initiative he has taken in ~inq to increase the fede~al vote fo~ the puz:pose of salmon enhancement not only in this Province but in the othe~ Atlantic p~vinces as well? I unde~stand the federal vote is app~oXimately $2 million now and that ~epresentation has been made to Mr. McGrath bY• I believe, M~. Richard Whittegar ~epresentinq the East Coast Salmon Associa-tion to ~ to have that vote increased from $2 million to $5.5 million for the purposes of further sa.I.mcm enhancement.

I was wonderi~q what initiatives tbe provincial ministe~ baS taken to have that par"...icular request realized? n. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. Minister of Fisheries. n.W.CARrER: Mr .Speaker, we are encouraged bY statements cominq out off Ottawa fro~~~ our vezy good friend and fo:r:mer colleague, th'!l new minister, with respect to the enhancement programme. He has be.en to British ColUIIIbia looking at their enhancement proqramme and apparently he is very imp:ressed with it.

And that will he part of the overall pac:kaqe that Will be put together and presented to the Canadian people short.Ly in te:r::ms of the sa.lmon industry. But that kind of an enhancement programme, I suspect, will be put in place and as a Province of course we would eneouraqe it •. But I can only info:z:m my good friend opposite me, Mr.

Speaker - and he appears t.o be having some problems in recent months as to jurisdictions, respective jurisdictions - but the matter he mentioned, I think, is pretty well a federal responsibility but1 be that as it may,we are qcing to encourage it and make the necesscu:y representations .to Ottawa to ensure that a proper proqramme is put in place in that reqard. n. SPEAKER: The hon. member for L.aPoile. MR..NEARY: Mr. Speaker i the other day I put a question to the hon. the Premier, Sir, in connection with Eastern Provincial Airways anQ. the hen. gentleman an.swered my question U03 ::( t I / '

July 31,1979 Tape No. 435 AH-2 by qi. ving me a lecture on the private ente:zprise system 1so I am going to t%y again, Mr.Speaker. Would the bon. qentleman tell me if he has found out since I put the question to him if Cabinet approval was necessary in order to bring about a private transaction wherebY the ownership of EPA was shifted from Mr.Andrew Crosbie to Mr. Harry Steele? MR. SPEAKER: (Silmls) The hon. the Premier. Pm!MIER PECXFO:RD: Mr.Speaker, the hon. member asked that question the other day.

Yes, cabinet approval was sought and granted for that transaction . and it was dane, if the hon. member wants to know, 1,.t was done on November 22nd. MR. ~ARY: I said it was NoVember 22nd., so I was not too far out. A supplementary question, Mr .Speaker, PRF.MIER PECKFO!;!D: NO, I th.i.nk it was in the new.s as .a matter of fact, on the 15th ur 16th. MR. NEARY: No. Mr. speaker, it was not · MR. SPEAI.CER: Order, please! The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. It was not in the news , Sir. I took a stab in the dark the other day , I said November 16th.

I also want to ask the hon. gentleman now if the qround rules reqardinq a $6 million loan to Eastern Provincial Airways, if the ground rules wers changed when approval was qiven to triUUifer the ownership from one party to another, and if 11.04 :.~ t I .r

July 31, 1979 Tape 436 EC- l MR.~: so, how druti.cally we.ra the qround rul.es cb.;mqed? MR. SP!:AKER: (Si:lms) The l:lo:l. tha Premier. PBEMIER. PECICFORD: No I I ~t answer tha.t question directly I hut I will undertaks to qet it for the bon. IIUiler in the nel¢ daY or two and provide him with the infozmatJ.oa.

Because 1 you know 1 I do aot thi!Jk it is reflected here in the Order -in COuncil, so I would have to check with the Department of Finance to see whether any qrouad rul.es were chan~ Wb.ich ware inc:orporated in the Order- ia-COuncil in the sense tha.t when this Order in Council is issued the qzound rules will be changed. SO I cannot answer the boa. lllelllber directly. All. I can say to him is that I will ~mde.rtake to get it in the aext day or two as I undartoak to get an answer to his oriqiaal qUastioa to which I have the answer.

I am (}lad he ;r.sked me. the question aqaia today baciLUS.e I had the answer here ready for him. MR.. NEARr: Mll.SPEBER: A suppl.ementuy, the hem. the lll8llber for I.aPoil.e. MR. NEAJIY: I alii. DOt c:o~~~~l.ainiaq. I wallt to uk the hem. gentleman if there is anything ill that Order ill council tha.t he hu ia froat of him there to indicate whether or not Eaatun ProvinciAl. Aizways vas goiaq to send & letter of inteat to the Ministxy of 'r.l::ansport to purc:base Jb:t:da.ir?

And if it is not in the Order ia COuncil, would the han. gentl.emm indicate if Cabinet approval. had to be soUCJht before Eastem Provincial Ai%ways c:ould send such a letter of iatent? MR.SPEAJ;EB.: ~ hoa. the Premier. PREMI£1l PECKFOlUh I d!;) not h&va a cl.ue, Mr. Speaker, off the top of 1q head, but there is DOthiaq in this Order ia Council which has refl.ected anytb.i.ng . to do with E.P.A. purchasing or lllilldnq a bid for Nordair. MR. NEARr: Mr. Speakert a supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER.: A final suppl...ntary, the hoa. the member for LaPolla.. then the bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR..

HEARt: ~ hoo.. gentl.eman has the Order ia COuncil ia front of him. Would he indicate if approval was gr_anted via that uos : . .( t I ., '·t f

July 31, 1979 Tape 436 EC- 2 Order in Council to allow E .P .A. to they dec:l&rad a dividend of - let Die see what 1.t was - IWI!Os-c $3 million, c:lose to $3 million they declared a dividend - because prior to that they w~ batted fmll payinq dividend& - so that the transf _er of ~ership could take plac:e? M1l. S1'EAD:ll.: {Si.Das) 'l'he 1\op.. the Pz:ellier. PREMIER PECJCFORn: No, 1 canDOt: ~r that. There is nathinc;t here in the Order in Council. MR. NEARr: _ could I have a copy of The Order in Cotincil? SOME BON. MEMBERS: No, No! I do not lo:lcw if I am - to~ :cever tal;lle <U1 Order in council, I do not think. U06 f ' f ' ' ~· ~·

July 31s t., 1979 Tape No . 4.37 ow -1 MR. NFARY: Yes, they have been tabled. PREMIER PECJ.{FORD: Well, perhaps they have been tabled. MR. E. !lOBERTS: An non. minister or the Premier as. the case may be recently (inaudible) • PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, yes, yes! MR. S. NEARY: Can l have a copy of the Order in CounciD PREMIER PECl<FOP.D: l will defer that decision for now. I am not going to respond to the hen. gentleman until I find out ~ether it is proper so to do. In this circumstan.ce, I do not know if I am breaking anything to do with the company or whatever. MR. S. NEARY: No.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, I am 110t just going to take the hem. member's word, I am very sorry. MR. S. NEli.RY: well, you can take my word for it. PREMIER PECKFORD: I appreciate the hon. gentleman's expertise in all ll\8.tters dealing with the Province of Newfoundland regardless of whether they are legal, constitutional, transportation policies, sQc:ial policies or resource policies.

I recoqnize that there is a lot of ~ertise between the ears of the bon. gentlel!'.an but whether, in fact, it goes so far as to suggest and to recOI!III\end to which I could agree readily the tabling of the Order in Council, I am not prepared to accept at this time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, heU"! MR. SPEJ\KER {S~): The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, my question was originally meant to be a supplementary based on the question ask.ed by the,.Leader of the opposition, so I have to refer back, but I will ask the question because it is ilnportant. l believe it affects a fair aiiiOunt of the peop.le of this pron.nce. And at the same meetinq where the minister opposed the ban a!J.d came in and said that he did not have the information available from the biologists and other people that would put him in a position to approve a ban at this time, he did make the statement - if the statement attributed to him in the press is right - ftbut Mr.

Carter said he thought he could live with the limit of two grilse" - those are a Slll8.ll salmO.n - "a day pla.ced on the sports fishery. • 1 f i U07

July 31st ., 1979 Tape No. 437 DW- 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: Now, realizing that the sports fishery, Mr. speaker, contributes a fair amount to our econOIJIY, the Department of T~urism is depend ·ing on it for a fair favt dollars, a lot of our domestic peopl.e want 'to sallnon fish 1 does the minister have the advice and have the information available to him that would put him in a position to say that he would su.pport the sports fishe:ry of this Province ·be:ing reduced by 50 per cent 1 from four salmon a day to two salmon a day? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS}: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. w. CAA~: M:r.

Speaker, for one of the few times in my life I think I have been misqUoted by the press.I did not suggest that I could live with the placing of the limit of two. I had no authority, of course, that would have to be· the decision of my colleague,the Minister of Tour i sm (M:r. Morgan). BUt that was one of the recommendations made by the minister fran New B.runswick.

In that regard 1I said I would have to defer to the minister and that would be his decision with the consultation of Cabinet. aut certainly I did not 1 I have no :o-ecollection of having agreed to there b~;dng a pacing of a limit to fish per day on our rivers. MR. G. FLIGHT: A supplemen4ey, M:r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supPlementary, the han. member for Windsor- Buchans,then the han. member for Lewisporte. MR. G.

FLIGHT: Since the meeting obviously dealt with the ways of considering the reduction in the salmon resource and looking at means of stopping the reduction,or replenishing the resource, then obviously the sports fishe:ry of New Brunswick,because the minister indicated that they are prepared to go to two salmon per fisherman per day; !ttY question to the minister at this point then was Newfoundland ,was he '·as the Minister of Fisheries for Newfoundland ·, asked to consider the same reduction in the sports fishery as New :t.runswick is prepared to implement?

Have we been asked as a Province to implement that change and to reduce the catch iimit for sports fisherman from feur to two? 11.08 f I :~ t .,

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 438 NM- l MR. SPEAKER (Silllms): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, that was one of the recommendations made by the Minister for New Brunswick and made to the federal minister, with a request,! pres_ume 1 that that kind of regulation have almost universal application in the Atlantic area. But, Mr. Speaker, the minister in the Government of New Brun$wick, they have a very real problem. I think lllOSt reasonable people will agree that they have a problem. I am not sure that the reco111111endations made by the minister are the answer.

In fact 1 I do not think we could live with certain .recommenda,tions made by him. But I do not wish to downgrade the Government of New Brunswick for having made thos .e recommenciati.ons. Obviously they are acting out of a lot of concern for the salmon fi-shery and from what I hear they have good reason to be concerned. SallllOn fishing in that area is in danger of depletion, so I guess it is up to them as a government to take whatever steps they see fit to ensure that that will not happen. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. ·MR. F. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker. r have a question for the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment and it relates to the widespread destruction of trees and shrubs along the Trans-canada Highway and other side roads in Newfoundland by the Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limited, Newfoundland Hydro, and the Deparbnent of Transportation and Communications who are engaged in applying a chemical called Picloram which destroys the biological makeup of the trees and shrubs. And if I could elaborate, Mr.

Speaker, there is some concern that this drying out not only destroys the touriSlll aspects of it but also it could result in forest fires being caused by cigarette butts or whatever, this drying out • I wonder if the minister could tell us whether or not any restrictions are being :t f I ·! if ' 11.09

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 438 NM- 2 MR. F. WHITE: planned to be placed on any of those spraying activities. MR. SPEAKER (Sirmns): The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, the only thing I can say right now is that these companies operate under a licence or a permit and they have to receive this in order to use these chemicals and I have had no notification that anything is being used unwisely. But I will certainly check into this situation and perhaps on tomorrow or another day I can come back with an explanation. MR. F. WHITE: \ 1 ·~· I . ,. I • A supplementary. 11.10

Ju.ly 31, 1979 Tap e No. 439 so - 1 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) SUpplementary, the .hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker 1 if tne hon. lady drove along the Trans-canada Highway in recent days, she would kl'IQw that lots of things are being done unwisely in this reqard 1but I will defer to her to get tne infomation, Mr. Speaker, since I plan to qive llCtice of debate in this on the Late Show on Thursday. AN HON. ME.MSElh He.ar 1 hear. MR. SPEAF:ER: The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the l4inister of Labour and Manpower (M:r. J. Dinn).

Th.e minister will knew that twelve or fourteen months ago there was a ti:i-party cammittee set up to study the recQIImlendations, very specific and very important reccmmendations, brought forward in the Selikoff Report on the asbestos dust problem in Baie Verte. The minister's de~nt, the company and the uni.E)n set up a committee to study those recaomend.aticns and we l)ave not beard very much about that committee since.

Could the minister tell the House Wbether the c:ouanittee has indeed studied the recommendations of the Selik.off Report and whether tne government and the coq~any are preparing to take any specific and appropriate action on a number of these recamnendations? 'l'he hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, with all the things that have happe~:~ed in the Department of Labour and MiUlpower over the past several months, I have not had an opportunity to qet into that specific repqrt but i: will endeav'our to find out what the cOIIIIIIittees have done and report to the Bouse in due course.

MR,. T. RIDEOUT t Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Suppl.emen tary, the hon. member for Baie Verte - Wb.i.te Bay. lltl f ' J I

July 31 , 1979 Tap e No. 439 SD - 2 MR. T. RIDEOUT 1 Mr.

Speaker, I can appreciate the minister's dilemma with the ot.'ler problems he has been faci:nq in th.at c;tepartment recentiy i:lllt coiUd L o!,Sk the minister whether · or ngt any decision has been taken yet - and I think this is one of the most important re<:ommendations of the colllllittee- to set up in the Oivis .ion of Occupational Health aDd Safety an asbestos reqistry whereby every person who has ever woued in an asbestos environment in the Pmvince would he registered fer the purposes of Workmen's Compensation aDd so on many years clown the road 1 GOd forbid. should that ccm.e about?

I think it is important that tba.t action be taken rather quickly. And could the minister tell us wheth .er that has been done yet or not? MR. SPEAKER: (Si.IIIIM) 'l'he bon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J • Dl:NN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we are in the process of reqisterinq people that have different o~ational hea,lth problems in the Province, not the least, of which, of course, is the asbestos one. We are doinq a ·reqistry on that nQW'.

The problem that 'We have had, basicall.y 1wi.th respect to the reqis -try,is that we ha,.e been, number one, attE!Qipti:nq to qet al-l the gmups toq.ether with :zrespect to OCcupational, Health and Safety into one cli.vi..sion and,jLlso, we have tbe probl.em of preparinq ri.qnt new for a IIIQVe to a new buildi:nq, But we are in the process of preparinq a reqistry of people and I wil.l also endeavour to qe.t further information on that aspect of the dep'artlllen~ fer the hon. ll1elllber a.n4 report to the House. MR. T. RIDEOoT: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker MR.

SPEAIG:R; Final supplementary, the hQn. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR· T .• RIDEoUT: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his inf;ormation. And one final question, a. double-barrelled question really; coald. the minister tell me wb.ether or not all. the. divisi~ns rel.ated to 'OCcupational Health and Safety have yet ( f I ..... f i U12

J uly 31 , 1979 Tape No. 439 so - 3 MR. T. RIDEOUT: been transferred into the Occupational Health and Safety Division of his dep~ent, lind secondl.y, could the lllinis1:e.r tell me :whether or not this tri-party COIIIILi~e~ union, campany and government- is meeting on a regular basis studying ~ recQimllendations of the Se~iltcff ~port? MR. SPEAKERz The hen. Minister of Lahotir and Manpo;,rer, MR. J. DINN: As i: said, Mr. Speaker, in answer to the second part of the question as tc bQw often the collllllittee has met .lid what the status of it is, I wi~l get that for the bQn. member.

With respect to t¥ first part, the answer is yes. All the different sections for Occupational Health and Safety az:e now toqether in one division, albeit they are spread to three or four loca.~ons tllrouqbout st. John's, They wUl be all in one building in another month or so but they are all together UDder one division, MR, SPEAKER: The hon. m~ for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Mr. speaker, a question for the Minister of Industrial Development (Mr. L. Sa.rryl. I understand that a DBEE stud.y which was c.anpleted on the Bay St.

GeQ.rqe's area of the Province and lookinq at the resource development of that study was completed s6metima in April and I was wonderinq if the minister plans to ~ that study .pUblic, make it open both to the pUblic and to the House of Assembly? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Industrial Development. MR. L. B.ARRY: I apal.oque, Mr. speaker, I missed the question. The hon. member for Port au Port. HR. J. HODDER: Ml • Speaker, I asked the minister if the DBEE .study on the Bay St. George's area would be made pUblic and whether we would receive copies in the !louse of Assembly? U1.3 ·f I .f J .. , '•.( ·(

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 439 SD - 4 i'1R. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon, Minister of Industrial Development. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, it J.s the poll.cy o:t this government to make available all information that is consistent with the orderly and efficient running of deparments. Now, there are certain reports and studies "i' • I ' f,· ,, I ' ' ~ . I 1tl4

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 440 NM - 1 HR. BARRY: that are prepared for the internal use of a department which is not appropriate to make public and I am not sure where tnis ~cular report falls - SOME I!ON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~. SPEAKER (Simm s) : Orde r, please! MR4 BARRY: - but I undertake to find out and to give the hon. member an answer tomorrow. MR. HODDER: A suppl ementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A suppleme ntary, the bon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A supplementary to the Ministers.

I understand that this particul ar report, and I !lave heard that the report deals with both the fishery and the way the fishery should go in the district of Port au Port and in the Bay St. George region , and it also deals with the l imestone resources of which at the present time the markets are very, very good . I believe the report also states that these resources should be pushed by the government. Has the minister been moving along these lines and has he, since the government i"x.s had it since April, has he made any move to try to find markets for the limestone resources of the area? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Industrial Development. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have not stopped since I got in the department along those lines. MR. SPEAKER: has e'l(pired. ;( : .. t :'t , I .. , '•.( f Order, please! The time for Oral Questions U15

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 440 Nr4 - 2 MR. SPEAKER ( Si.mm:s) : Before calling Presenting )?etitions, I would like to make a ruling on the petition presented yesterday by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mi:. Neary), and I would lilte to quote a couple of references. First of all our own Standing Orders, 91 (

a) states that "A petition may :Pe either pri~ted or written," etc., and -the practice in this Rouse has been to accept pe_titions that have at least three original signatures. Reference is also made to the Speaker's ruling on May 15th., 1979 which says, "The point of order brought up "'as whether the petition ·was in order with respect to ha.ving the required signat".u:es on th·e front page. Many signattires are in fact what appears to be a photostatic copy.

There are however on the first page what I understand to be four original signatures; The hon. gentleman has assured me there are four or:i,ginal signatures so in 'lilY opinion that would briQ.g it within the requirement of original signatures." And further a reference to Beauchesne, the fifth edition, page 210, paragraph 676 which states in part, "A petition must have original signatures or marks, and not copies fro~ the original.

The signatures must be written upon the petition itself and not pasted upon or otherwise transferred to it." Therefore, bearing in mind those references 1 I would have to rule that the petition presented by the hen. meml:!er for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is not permitted to be tabled in the aouse. PRESENTING PJ;;TITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of ~ial Services. MR. HICKEY: Thi$ beinq my first opportunity since yesterday to address \IIYSelf to the question of that petition 1 and now that Your Honour has ruled that it is not acceptable - MR •. SL"lMONS: on a point of order? MR. SPEAKER: on a point of or_der?

Is it the understanding that the minister is standing on a point of order? 1-IR. HIC.c«EY: I am standing on a point of order, Your Honour - MR. SIMMONS: Oh, be did not say that. U16 ·t f I ::( f I

J\JJ.y 31, 1979 Tape No. 440 NM - 3 MR. HICKEY: -and I alii asking if the House would give me leave to clear the names of a f~ly within my constituency which were conrtectc~ with this debate yesterday. Now that I do not have the opportunity to speak in support of the petition or against the petition or whatever,I am asking leave of the House to clear the nallles of .those people whose characters were maligned by inference, if not by name, and, Your Honour, I ask that I be allowed to do that. I think that is a reasonable request. MR. SI~ONS: On that point of ord.er. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : On tr~t point of order, the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. S.IMMONS: Mr. Speaker, my colleague f;rom LaPoile (Mr. Neary) according to your ruling, sir, has presented a copy of a petition. We all know that the original of tile petition exists, existS in the hands or the records of the member for Mo'Uilt Pearl (Mr. Windsor), and if my friend from st. John's East Extern (Mr.

Hickey) want .s an opportunity to speak to the petition then he ought to ta1.k to his friend from Mount Pearl to get him to present the petition to the House 1 which · should have been done in the first place 1 artd tht!m we will all get in on the act. MR. SPEAKER: on .the point of order, I re.ally do not consider it to be a point of order. Members really are not pe:rtnit,ted to get into debate at this point in the proceedings and I would theref~e have to rule that it is a difference of opinion between two hon. ~s. ~he hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. Hl:CKEY: ,Mr.

Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege of the Hou.se. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. MR. HICKEY: The privilege of the House being that my bon. friend from LaPoile (Mr . Neary) brought in a copy of a peti·tion ye sterda y and in introducing it, or asking that Your Honour make the deci s ion as to whether or not it be acceptable, went beyond the l.imits 11.1.7 .r '

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 440 NM - 4 MR. HICKEY: insofar as by inference 1as I have said, casting reflections on the characters of a particular family in my constituency 1 and in relation to my colleague from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) I have no intentions of · ·~ / ' :- ,f.• f ' 11.18

July 31,1979 Tape No. 441 AH-1 going to my colleague in Municipal Af.fairs and waiting for the petition and qoing through the ro~tine of presenting it all for tile purposes of clearing the names of those peOple. :I think I rise on a point of privilege of the House and I clear it in thi.s manner. Your Honour, the member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) should have done a simple check before hrlng:inq in a copy of that petition. The facts are, Your Honour, there was nothing wr911q with, there was no petition MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Spe:lker. MR.

SPElUCER(S:ill!lns) : I have to wait until the hon. minister makes his point of privilege and thl[!ll I will rule. MR. NEARY: I think you heard enough now. Mr. Speaker, there wu no petition. SOME RON. MEMBE!lS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAXER: That: would he up to lll8 to decide that :I 9Uess. Order, please! The hon. gentleman, you know, was quick to take stabs at people who are not in the House as well as people who are in the Bouse. l3ut ~n somebody Wishes to clear their names he is not so keen on hearing the facts.

The facts are, Yollr Honour, there was no petition presented, there was an application which does not require , Your Honour, signatures, it requires to have the names listed of those people who were going to take advl!li:l.tage of that water supply, point nmnber one. Point number two~ the people Who were listed on that application were in - MR. ROBERt'S: Mr. speaker, this is very improper. MR. NEARY: The decorum of the House is qoing doWn·. MR. SPEAKER: O~er, pleue! I have ruled that the hon. minister 111ar make his point of privilege and at that time :I will rule whether or not it is in order.

The hon. m.embers know full well that they are not able to question the Chair on that particular point. 1:11.9 f ' t i ( I

July 3l,l979 Tape No. 441 AH-2 I as~ him to make his point of privilerge. MR. HICKEY: Your Honour, I am standing on my rights as a !1lelllber of thi.s House. I am doing the same thing, simply, as the member for LaPoile (Mr .Neary) did yesterday. He stood on his rights in presenting a p .etition thereby casting reflections on people in my consti .tuency. I am risinrg on a point of privilege of the House. Your Honour will then rule Whether it is acceptable or not. But I aJn attempting to make a case that the privileges of this House we're indeed violated inasimlch as the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary} came to this Chamber with a document and without any investigation at all , Your Honour, concluded and alluded to wrongdoing and nlllllinq a lane which is ca111110nly known in that coumunity as Cay's Lane and thereby reflecting on a family by the name of Day. Now there aJ;"e a number of families do\m there. The only probl~ here, Your Honour, and I will conclude it quickly - there is a difference of opinion between a couple of members of a family and that difference borders on politics.

And , Your HonoU'r, th:is is no place to discuss it 1 nor is it the-place for anyone to come in here with a petition, a copy of a petition all~inq wrongdoing without knowing what he is ~ing about. There was no wrongdoing. EVE!rything was in order. That well is drilled. .The people involved can use it. The qentlem.an whose property the well is on has given authority and permission for those people to use it and therefore I suggest, YoU'r Honour, that the privilege of the House has been violated. MR. SPEAKER: On the point of privilege. The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle.

MR. l!OBERTS: Yes, Your Honour, only to the point of privilege and then I will raise a further one because , I think, the hon. gentleman from St. John's East Extern (Mr.Hickey) is deliberately abusing the privileges of this House. Mr. Speaker, the procedure on privileges 7 I would suqqest,is well known. The han, member has the . 1:120 f I :.(

J uly 31,1 9 79 Tape No. 441 AH-3 same right as does any melllber to raise a question of privilege. He must state it briefly and Your Honour will rule whether it is a prima facie case. I dO not knqw whether the ho.n. q~tleman made !l statement of a point of privileqe , if so I did riot bear it ClJld I was listening . intently. In any event he failed to do what he ouqht to haVe done which is to say he is prepared to move a motion.

The facts, I wo~ld submi .t, Sir, to speak to the - the so-called facts he brouqht fonrard are t.'lese, My friend frQIII LaPoile (Mr.Reary}receiwd a doC~Dent . which, Your Honour, has only now ruled is out off ordfl!r•So my friend f':rom LaPoile (Mr. Neary) could hardly b!! blaated for presentinq i1: when Your Honour as o.f yesterday did not know it was out off order. Your Heincmr 111ade the ruling today and that settles that matter. The dQclmlent alleges that public monies were spent on what amounts to a forgery. NiUIIt!ls were affixed without tne J?el:llli$sion of the person whose name was - That is not true.

MR. ROBERTS: That is what the document alleges. I am not saying it is trlie. I am simply sayinq, Mr. SpeUt!r, that the stat:eme~t mad~;t by my frlend from LaPoile .(Mr.Neary} was that .six peQple said to. him, that their n;~~~~es were · affixed to a document without their knowledge or pezmission or consent. And if I underst~d anythinq about law, and I understand perhaps just a jot and a t.i,t,le, perhaps just a little bit I!IOre than the gentleman from the Extern (Mr.Hickey 'l,that amounts to forgery. Pllblie money wa5 spent on that. That is all my friend from Lal'oile (fllr.

Neary) was saying and I sllbmit , Sir, there is no .question of any point of prildleqe in that. MR. SPEl\XER: (Silims) I appreciate th.e hen. melliber's debate. I believe I have heard enough arguD~ent on the .point of privi.leqe and I would have to rule that it is not a point of privilege at this tilne but merely a difference of opinion 11.2.1 :.~ 'K ~ .. '\

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 441 between the two hon. members. MR. NE1<RY: A point of order. A point of privileqe, Mr. Speaker. ,MR.. RICXEY: He has changed his min4 now. MR. SPEAKER: A p<iint of privileqe. The hon. 111ember for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I have not c:han~ed ttr!:f mind , Mr. gpeaker. If· I may. Or~r, please! I would like to ask members to please lllalce their points of order or make their points of privileqe as quickly as they ~ so we can ql!!t to the ru.linqs • The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my point of privileqe, Sir, is in connection with a couple o:t untiue :z:anarks that were made by the hon. qentleman when he ra.i.sed tbis so•aalled PQint of 1122 ::{ t I :~ f I

July 31, 1.979 Tape 442 EC - l MR. NEAl«: privilege of the House. The hon. qentleman said that I took stabs at people outsida this House and that I maligned people outside this House. That is not true, Sir, and the hon. gentleman should lie asked by the Speaker to withdraw and apoloqize to this House for abusinq the privileqes of the House. That is not tzUe. I read the prayer of the petition. 'l'be petition is the dDCWIII!Dt that stated that the signatw:es had been forged. I did not state it, I read from the .petition.

And I wu dDinq my duty as an elected member of this House in prese:j.tinq that doCU~~~Bnt to the minister and to the members of the House a.ti I was asked to do, after a thorough invastiqation, I might add. And the hon. 9&11tleman may kick up ~ the fuss he likes and he may be smartinq under the fact that public money was spent improperly. That is the hon. gentleman's problem. He will have to sort ~tout with tha minister. But my point of privileqa now, Sir, is what the hon. gentleman said is COIIIpletely untrue and Your Honour should ask hill! to withdraw and apoloqi..ze to the Hoaae. MR.

SPEAXER: (Silas) On the point of privil.eqe, may I say that I do not think there is any further discussion or debate or argument required on this particular point, it is obviously and c:l.early a difference of opinion lie tween two ~on. members. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Collllllittee of Supply. on motion, that the Houae resolve itself into Collllllittae of the iibole on Supply, M2:. Speaker left the Olair. MR. CBAII!MAN: {Butt) Order, please! Onder the Executive Council, Head 3, 307-ol. MR. F . B. ROOE: Mr . Chairman . MR. SD!MONS: Mr. Cha.i.J:man. MR.

CHAIIUIAN: The hon. the ll18111ber for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. S~NS: I will yield to my colleague for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hen •• member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. RlWE: Yes, I would liJte that because I sort o• just got started tha last day we were c:onsiderinq the Bead, U23 f I f I

July 31, 1979 Tape 44.2 EC - 2 MR. F. BCWE: Resource Public Relations proqramme - Is that the Head, ~- Chaiz:man? - 307-03, correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) 307-01. MR. F. BOWE: Ol - well, we are still on the salaries so we ean qet into generalities. Mr. Chairman, tb.e last day J: only got into tb.is headi.nq for several minutes because we were reaching one of tb.e clock and tb.e Premier indicated tb.at he would brinq some info.r:ma.tion to tb.e Colllllli.ttee • if J: can gat the Premier's attention, Mr. Chairman - he WQuld bring soma info%m&tion to the Collllllittee relatinq to the Special Action Group.

Now, Sir, w!tat J: wanted to know basically was this: What is the oriqin and the reasons for the est.abllshment of the Special Action Group? And J: ask tb.e Prelllier in particular whether or nat the government had reque~Jted a public relations firm or a consultinq firm to indicate to the qovermaent ways in Wb.ich it could eDhance its imaqe prior to the setti.ncJ up of this Special Action Group?

I put that question direc:tly to the Premier, wbetber or not the govel:Dment had asked a consulting fi:c~~ or a public relations fiz:m to indicate to the government methods and ways of enhancing the qo~t's image at that particular point in time, and if thev had asked tb.is of a particular fi%111, namely, McConnell Advertising 1 I believe, and tbat McConnell Advert,ising as a result of this request had indicated to the goveroDBnt that the Special Action Gzoup be fOrmulated and foJ:IIIIld. And of course, we had tb.e result 1:124 ·! f '

July ll, 1979, ~pe 443, Page l -~ apb MR. F.B.ROWE: that the Premi er called with gre at -fanfare, called a spacial T.V. programme, a fui.lf hotlr prograume, I believe it was, for the pU:q>Ose of making a great announcement in the great interest of the People of this Province and that announcement was the establishlnent of the Special Ac-tion Group. Now, what I would like to know is whether that Special Action GrOll,P was set up upon the recommendations of that public relations £i:r::m, number one.

And number two, in view of the fact that this year there are $382,000 being voted for resource public relations progrillllllling and, of course, there were expenseS voted last year into the revised esti.mate .s of $601,000 for a total in exce$$ of - well, to add it up, $982, 100, have been spent for resource public relations programmes -what :r would like to know is whether McCOnnell Advertising did get that advertising and if they did not, wj:lo did get that advertisinlJ and woever did get that advertising, under what circumstances it was gOtten.

In other wcrds, were public tenders called for this public relations programme? I ~ that in the spirit- and the Member for st. John's East (Mr.MarShall) knows full. well the importance of that par-ticular question being asked because the me.mber for st. John's E'ast ~ved himSelf from the cabinet over this whole public relations tendering bU,sine .ss. This was one of the reasons that he removed himself from Cabinet at one point in the game. And the sums of money being voted here are in excess of the amount that calls for public tendering. So I submit, Mr.

ChaiJ:man, that public tenders should have been called and bids made and the gove~t, of course, given out contracts to presumably the lowest tender. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make this poj.nt, that the Premier may think he is gaining some grounds and some advantage with the public of this Province by - in Answers to QUestions in Committee stage or in the House of Assembly - by giving the appearance of reJIIOVing himself as far as he possibly can from the former Premier. 1125 f ' f ·, ' ~: ~·

July 31 , 1979 , Tape 443 , Page 2 -- apb MR. WHITE: I do not blame him for that. MR. F.B.ROWE: I would not blame him for that but the fact of the matter is, Sir, that the hon. the present Premier was a minister of that Cabinet, that administration. So was the present Minister of Finance {Dr. Collins), so was the present Minister of ~ur and Manpower {Mr. Din.h) , so was the present Minister of Justice {Mr. Ottenheimer) , so W<IS the - who is the Minister of Social services now? MR. NEARY: The roadrunner. MR. F .B .RCME: Yes. So was the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), so was the Minister of ;l!ealth (Mr.

House), so was the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr.Morqa,n), the Minister of Fisheries(Mr.W. Carter), the Minister of" Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie), the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.Brett), of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) and of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Windsor) • Twelve, counting the Premier, Mr. Chai:z:man, were members of the administration that set up the Special Action Committee. Now, I do not wish to refer to the COI1tract, Mr. Cole's contract, :! must say, if I were in Mr.

Cole's position, I would have grabbed that contract as fC~st as I co'!Ud. It was a good deal and I conqratW.ate Mr. Cole for having gotten that contract. The qUestion now is wbetller,in fact, it holds up in law.

I am not questioning that aspect of it, what I want to know is whether or not McConnell Advertising ~de that rec01111118lldation to the govern.mEtnt, at the request of the government, for the setting .up of the Special Action Committee, and whether or not McConnell Advertising or any other public relations firm got this advertising that is being voted under this Heading, and w!lether or not public tenders were called. r hope the hon. the Premier does not get up in answer to this question and say that this was done by the former Premier and he has no knowledge of it whatsoever. Because, U26 f I :,( t ' t '

July 31, 1S79, Tape 443, Fage 1 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: Sir, anything done by that administration had to be done collectively or by Order-in-Council. l I ··~ 1 I )/ I • 11.27

July 31 st., .1.9.79 Tap e No. 4 44 DW- 1 MR. F.ROWE: Therewas a famous accusation made of the former former Pr·emier that he had signed <Ul agreement or a contract on his own. ~e hon. member for st. John 1 S East (Mr. Marshall) knows ful.l well what I am talking about and there was a great kerfuffle about that particular contract or agreement w!ien the former fort)ler Premier was accused of having :roade an .agreement on his own without consulting or without the knowledge or without tl1e agreement of the Cabinet.

And I would suggest, Sir, that when we are talking about the expenditure of millions of dollars, Which i.s what we are doing over a: nUmber of years, that this should have had ful.l Cabinet approval.And not only that, Mr. Chairman, not only full Cabinet approval but the approval of this House of Ass~ly. The hon. mi!IIIber for st. John's East, Sir, on many ~cas ions and I think the hen .mi!IIIber for St. John 1 s North tMr. J.

Carter) on !Da'ny occasions when they were casting criticisms back at the fo:r::mer administration, One of the critcisms that they: brought up qui1;:e often was the fact that too ma,ny big d~isions involving the expenditure of the t<lxpayers' money were being made at the Cabinet level without tl:le knowledge of the full House. And I woUld submit, Sir, that the Premier should be in a position to indicate the anwers to the questions that I put to him now and I hope tbat he will stand up and answer them or we shal.l. stand again and keep asking Un.til we get the answers .

And I further point out, sir, that after the money has been committed, now7 ~s year, we are asked to vote an additional half million do11ars and I would not be surprised in next year 1 s vote, even though the Action Group is qone1 we will. be ill.sked to vote another sum of m.oney. ·So I sincerely hope that the Premier wil.l. see fit to answer the questions that I put to him. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. B1UJU)): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for Tr:ln.ity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe} for his CODIII\ents on this subhead, 307-0l..

He asked me a number of questions whieh I will try t;o address. U2S f I f '

JUly 31, 1979 Tape No. 444 ow - 2 P:REMIER PECKFORD: The hen. member asked me whethe:r McCOnnell's recommended that the special Action Group be established. Now7I do not know.I do not think one will find it in Order-in - Council nor in any papers written but as I remember it the former Premier was concerned about the process of getting applications approved and getting small businesses off the ground and this k-ind of thing and he thought it appropriate that some special a~ency be desi~ed, as I understand it_, and then it was in those parameters that other people got involved in it.

So I do not kno\i if I could find-I could search for the hen. member and see whether there was anything in writing but l doubt whether there was as I remember the former Premier had the idea himself as it related to doing something, as it related to small businessmen in rural Newfoundland and this is what came out of it_, so that he had the concept and then it was just given some flesh,if you will, or some meat by McConnell·~s and other people who got involved in it, Now,if the hen. member has information to indicate different than that I would be very interested in perusing the information.

But as I understand it that is the way it happened. I will check it out and see whether there is evidence to the contrary 1 but as I remember it that is the way it was. McConnell's Advertising are involved here under that res.ource programme. The reason why that is so high is simply because it is bills outstanding from last year. It does not represent any new programme as I indicated in my opening remarks on this whole question of Executive Council and the various divisions under it.

So there is no new mney in here for a resource public relatipns programme~ it is part of the programme that was adopted last year and approved by the Rouse as it related to ads and so on that would be placed to publicize, if you will, the special Action Group and the various loan proqrammes that the government had in existence. MR. F. ROWE: Is that the total vote now? Is that finished? P:REMIER PECKFORD: Yes, that finishes it off1 exactly. Now McConnell's got the contract,if you w:i.ll;or got the work. And the Public Tendering 11.29 t f f f

July 31, 1979 Tape 444 IB-3 PREMIER PECKFORD: Act does not apply here. There have been numerous opinions from Justice on this, that the Public Tendering Act- government has the power or . 11.30 ··(

July 31, 1979 Tape 445 EC- l PREMIER PECKFORD: the authority or whatever to award won to public relations firms, and this has been so for quite so111e time. So McConnell's were awarded this work as it rela~e~ to ~e ads on this resource public relations programme and ~ey have done all the work on it up to now. As I have indicated to the hon. member, there is no new work. McConnells are just finishinq off whatever was aqreed to under last year's proqramme and I have suspended any further won in this field.

Altoqether the government will review now in the next five or six months whether, in fact, it is advantageous at this point in tillle for us to get involved in any additional public relations activity. It would be 'IllY inclination that if !QVernment does decide, it would be much reduced from what it vas in the past. I do not even know whether we should qet involved that lllllCh in it, but if we do and va have to get involved in soma kind of agency, than I think the calling of proposals would be in order.

It is difficult to put detailed spacifie&tions in place, but I think we can put specifications in place to the degree whereby proposals could be called for. And on the basis of ~se pn~posals than qove:cu~~ent could choose one of the agencies and hopefully we could qat it done locally. MR. F. B. ROWE: (Inaudible). tender? PREMIER PECKFORD: I am trying to speak and the hon. member is lllaking it difficult. I will listen to his question - awn thouqh it is out of order - when I finish.

All I am tryinq to say is I alii trying to do it for the benefit of the hon, member, so I hope he does not .start think.inq about another question before he listens to my answer, because then I feel lle. is not listeninq to 11rJ answer and, therefore, I am wastinq my time and I should sit down and let somebody else speak. All I am sa.yinq is that I do not know whether we will get involved next year in a public relations proqramme of any sort like it was in the past, I doubt whether we will. There miqbt be some public relations necessary u has been the practice in the last number of years.

In the United States there have been a number of agencies involved in publicizinq the• development opportunities in the Province; that has been cancelled llOif in this Budget \ ~: ·( f I I ,. . 1 J 1:131.

July 31, 1979 Tape 445 !!C- 2 PREMIER PECXFORD: and we are reviewing' that whole sphere. But if we need to do ~y fillll and any spec:,i£ic ada as it rel.a.tes to call proposals and number tvo, that we would put some kind of local. )?reference provision in there, that if it caa. be dane at a.ll in the Province by local indusb:y, local ad agencies who ar.e trying to get. off the qround 0 theA we should keep it within the Province. That would be the way I would like to qo. MR. F. B. ROWE: Would the Premier permit a question? P.BEMIER PECIJ'ORD: Yes - and just antil I finish. I aa sony. While t think of it, in the.

Departlaent of Industrial Development - and this will eo- up in the Estimat:ea colllllli ttees - ~:r:a is money for public relations activity aa it relates to development opportunities which are separate from the allocation here under the Special Action Group, which deals with the pursuit of aciftrtisinq the Province to potential investors arbund the world. MR. F. RJWE~ While the Premier ·is still on his feet, Mr. Chairman! PREXD:R PEQQ"QRD: Yes r sure. MR. C!JAIRMAN: (Butt) The bon. the member for Trinity - Bill' de Verde.

I am not quite cleu: aa to whether or ngt proposcWI were called for with respect to public relations 1110rk or whether it was just handed over to McCoDDell.' s, and I UL also not quite clear u to situation. Well, on the second point I would have to haw to ~ le&l:ned friends, but there has been a leqa:I. opinion · given on it em a number of occasions. Perhaps the Public Tendering Act needs to be ctumqed, I do not know, but it is pretty difficult. I know other jurisdictions h;p.ve had this problem to try to put specifications in place so tbat eftz:ybody is equal on doing it.

Thera are factors involved here which are pre. tty difficult to put into tender documents} to specifications unless you do it real. ad hocly, but I thi.n1c. proposcWI, perl1aps, should. be 11.32 f I

July 31, 1979 Tape 445 EC- 3 P~R PECKFORD: c:a.l.led in the absence of a public tenderinq thinq which woul.d require very specific: specifications wllic::h might be I doubt Whether there were. I do =t think there were proposals called - you know, I cannot say categotical.l,y but I do =t ~er that any pr:apoilals weze ciiLUed. I think. this fi%m was available and was capable of doing the work. MR.. !' . IUiE: They were availabl.e before the Action Collllli ttee was set up. PREMIER PECUORD: Well, they might have been doing work before that point in time, I do· not ki!Ow.

I was not ~t c:l.ose to it and I am not that falllillu wi.th it, but I am not sure wbether proposals were called. We can easily find that out. I think the hon. member also got into the question of - the.re ue a nwaber of reports on th.e activi.ti.es of the Action Group that the Action Group has 1133 :f :.t f I f I

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 446 so - l PREMIER PEClCFORD: repo%'1ted to t:he Premier on a number of ~plications received February 1977, October 1977, from February 1978 to October 1978 and so on and how they were handled, this kind of thing. There were a fair number of calls came in.

My approach to it, as the hon . member knows, is that I think the same number of calls can come in but they can qo directly to the department, I do not think the need is there now for this group , otherwise, of course, we would not have eliminated it in the Budget. aut there were a fair number of calls over the period of time that it was in operation and there were a lot of people , no doubt , who got a lot of help from the group during that time.

And from February 1977 to October 1977, for example, the number of applications received were 289 and the number of applications approved were 168, to give you some idea of it. And it was in February 1978 to October 1978, it went to 468 and 370, so there were a fair number of calls coming in. I think one can still get a . lot of calls ccming in to the department, we just have to advertise the number and the department can deal with it then directly. I think that is most of the questions that the bon . member asked. MR. R. SIMMONS: MR. OiAIRAAN: (Baird) The bon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. R.

SIMMONS1 Mr. Chairman , while we are still on t:he subject of the Special Action Group, that terminology is a little dilferen~ Originally it WA$ called the Action Group and it has taken on th.e connotation of special. No question , it is special, l1r. Chairman. I hope it is special to the point of being unique, I hope it never happens again. I hope it never happens again that a group of sane, reportedly sane men sit in Cabinet and allow the public's money to be so blatantly squandered as was the instance right bere . I hope it never ever happens again . It has got to be I l'l ' 7 I ,, '. i· 1134

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 446 SD - 2 MR. .R. SIMMONS : special. in that sense, it has got to be unique i.n that sense, Mr. c:hclirm4n, tllat: one man, we gather now, we are being told if you believe the script of the new Tory administration, that one man, Fl::ank D. Moores, was the strong man) he cCQJ!e in and he shoved it all down their throats a,nd now they have been busy ever since, Mr. Chaizman, shaking him· off.It does not say much for them, Mr. Chail:man, does not say much for the crowd in Cabinet that they only began shaking lti,m off after he had left.

It does not say lllUch for their strength .of character, does not say lllUCh for their intestinal fortitUde that the g:uy they want to disown now, the g:uy they want to disown now was the g:uy whose dictates they danced t:o all the while he was there. If you believe the official script now, 'Frankie Baby' was tl1e bad boy, 'Frankie Baby' rammed Action Group down their throats.But they are going to shake it off now, they are goinq to became refol:llied, t;hgy are nOt qoinq to do t;hQse silly thinqs any more, they are just going to blaine it on one man 'Frank'. Not so lightly;:-u:.

Chaizman, not so easy as that. ·The public of Newfoundlar.d, the taxpayers,are not quite that st~, they are not quite that guH.ihle. Th!:!yknow the system of Cabinet in Newfoundland. They know the lllil.tter of collective responsibility. They know that it was a Cabinet as a whole that agreed on this thinq_, that agreed to spezld more then $1 million 'to McConnell in Montreai4 It was 1;10t just one man., One man showed the leadership, however misguided, but there had to be SOI!Ie followers. Are t:bes .e men, Mr.

Chaizman, the same men whQ are now goinq to rid themselves of this alba.tross, o.ne Frank Moores? 'I'lley are goinq to h,ave the fortitude it takes now to rid them. How can we, Mr. Chaizman, be expecte.;l. to believe that they :-.ave that kind of fortitude to do that now when they had wne to stick up to him a year ago? There is a ll35 :~ t '

July 31, 1979 Tape No, 446 SD - 3 MR. R. SIMMONS: contradiction there somehow, Mr. Chairman. The same brave souls who are going to chart a new world of courage and independence now are trying to have us believe that at the sa111e time they were led as lambs to the slaughter before. They went along against their will, they were dragged screallling to make some of these decision-we are told. A very severe and even deceitful contradiction in terms there, Mr. Chairman, one that needs some explaining. \ ~~. I' ~y· I ' f j 1,:· •I I ' I am glad that 11.36

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 447 GH-1 MR. SIMMONS: the Premier has decided to do with this Action Group what we told hil!l a year or so ago they sh~ld do with it, get rid of it, get ~id of i~. I~ must be the mo~t ~xptn~ive telephone number in the world, the most expensive telephone number in the WO:J;"ld. I appeal to the Preuder, ! appeal to the Premier now with his reputation for candidness to apply to this situation here and to develop a reputation also for consistency, a consistency of candidness. I appeal to h~ now to tell us the true story behind the Action Group, who rammed it down whose throat? Who decided it?

Was it a fait accompli wben it came to cabinet? Did it ever come to Cabinet? Who approved the 'Cole' contract? Were the people in cabinet used as rubber- stamp people there too?

Was that a fait accompli when they heard about it as well? was it something th~y had to go along with just for party solidarity,for the sake of the good old party? or are we to believe that knowingly these men who wer-e in cabinet went along with that a-trocious deal. that the Premier now wants to disown? r hope the members of the Committee follow me that somehow you cannot have it both "Ways, somehow those who would now say, "It was a very wrong thing, we have to get rid of the 'Cole' contract if we can; we have to dti something about it; we have to walk away from it", those people who are saying that now on the government side must have some reconciling to do with the d.ecisions they made earlier on this same Subject.

I recognize the Premier is gone, Frank Moores is gone, he is gone, but there are 16 or 17 others over there, Mr. Chairman,. who were there and who were part of the dec.ision. I believe the present Premier owes it to the Committee to be candid on this point, to tell the Committee what his rol.e was in it, if any, I do not know if there was a role. Perhaps he was physical.ly absent from cabinet; perhaps he was never apprised of it.

I know that he wa.s not one of the inner circle of the last Premier and that is to his credit, to the present Premier's credit, and perhaps when the present Premier was physically absent from Cabinet some day those who were in the inner circle of the former Premier, Mr. Moores, got together and rammed this one through, and ~\ l :~ t j ·.' 11.37

July 31, 197 9 Tape No. 44 7 GR- 2 MR. SIMMONS·: perhaps the fir.st that the present .Premier heard about it was when it ~ame before the House and we began asking questions about: it. I do not: know, but: I cio know, Mr. Chairman, I do know that on this p~ticul~ one, for whatever reason, for whatever reason , the Premier , today's Premier knows more than he is telling us.

He knows more than he is telling us about this Action Group, about ho.w it came about and I would hope that he would continue his reputation for candidness and ·tell us who it was, who it was cooked up this cockeyed concoction, this har·ebrained scheme called an Action Group. were the ministers all sound asleep the day that went through Cabinet'? I leave that with the Premier and I do hope he will address himself to some of the background of this Action Group, how it came into existence that we can pass some fair judgements on it. One other word, Mr. Chainnan, while I am on my feet about another subj ·ect.

New members of the House . yesterday afternoon were in for a special, special shock. They will have that shock again several times during the House and they w:i.ll find in time that what they abhorred yesterday, what they abhprred yesterday· I say to qove~ent members of the House, the procedure with which we whipped through $225 million, do you realize what we did yesterday at six o'clock, realize that the fiscal 1!14Ilagement of the qov~ent was so bad that in the eleventh hour and fifty-ninth minute, if you Like, they had to rush it through to get the money to pay the cheques?

Do you realize that, in effect, what happened, and I say to anybody who has a small business or a large business around this Province, what we did l:ere yesterday at five-thirty was the equivalent of saying to your company president or whoever signs tbe cheques, flying him back from Spain to walk do..-n to the hank to draw out a thousand dollars so you CIIJl pay your payroll for the week. That· is what 'l{e did yesterday. If you ran 1138 t I

July lJst., 1979 Tape No. 448 DW - 1 MR. R. SIMMONS: a business like that you would not be in business very long. But that is the way we ran the Province yo:sterdal•• tt._at i;;; exactl.y t.'le w~· we ran the Prc~~"lce yesterday. ·l'.nd · this honourable crowd, !ott. Chai=an, wants a billion dollars to spend'] I WOuld not trust them with a cent: I wo:uld not trust them with a cent~If that is the way they handle the payroll for one month I would not want to see what they would do behind closed d6ors. .Not that I do not trust them in the honour sense I do not t;rust them in the confidence sens.e.

If they are that stunned a!X>ut handling a payrol:J, God help me, the taxpayer when they are handling all of the money that goes into the Public Treasur.1 in the run of a-year. It was an insult,r say to t:he Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) what happened here yesterday, an absolute insult what happened yesterday. They knew some weeks ago they would need Interim Supply. You do not have to be very bright to look at the House

schedule to see that we c.ould not get the Budget debate over and the Estimates through the committee by yesterday, we have known that for two or three weeks. so a week or two weeks ago we could have had the hill that we were asked to ram thro-ggh yesterday .But in his usual fashion the Government liouse Leader has once again insulted the 'Whole procedure of this House .and I say to · inembers on the Government side what you abhorred yesterday you will be taught to condone and then embrace.

What you found so abhorrent yesterday you will be condoning by the next session and by the session after you will be embracing as a way of getting through with the parliament _ary session as fast as you can. I say to hon. members on both sides there is more to it, Mr. Chairmen, than just getting t:h%ough the scliedule. I would like to see amounts like $225 million dealt with in some deliberate way rather th.an being told at 5:30 that the gun is to the head and you had better shove it through by 6:00 or the payroll will not be paid.

Well, we got it through by 6:00 but it raises the larger question of who :fuJrlbled? Who fumbled? Did the M.inister of Finance (Dr. Collir.

s) fumble? Did the GOvernment House Leader (Mr. Marshal.

l) fumble? Who fumbled to bring us to 5:30 yes.terday afternoon when we U39 f ' :~ t '

f) J uly 31, 197 9 Tape No. 448 ow- 2 MR. R. SIMMONS: could have been doing that kind of thing days and weeks ago? Of course, my real. point is this,I say to ::tembe:s :>n both sid~s of t.'le House, you are being toY-ed with. You are being toyed with! Toyed with by the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall)! Toyed with in the matter of many, many mil~ions of do~lars. I wil~ c~ue up on that ·point, Mr. Chairman, my time having run out but we will probab~y have another whack at it. I Wl)uld ll,ope that the Premier in time wi~l speak his thoughts on the background of the Aetion Group. Thank you. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. CBAI~ (BU'l'r): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEAR!: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to del.ay the proceedings of the co111111ittee, Sir., but I believe it wil.l be very worthWhile to spend a hal. ·f an hour or so t~ing about the Special. Action Group even though quite a bit has b_een said about it over the last year and a half to two years. I do not know if there is anything else that we can say abo.ut it other than, Mr.

Chairman, to our aJ~D.J.sement at the government, at the Prem.iJ!r, the ®rn-again Premier now coming in and telling the House and the people of the Province that confession is good for the soul. we confess we were wrong. We ma.de a colossal blunder and now we are going to try to buy our way out of the contract with Mr. Bob cole. I mean this is all highly aJ~~Using, Mr.

Chairman, very amusinq indeed, . if it did not cost the taxpayers of this Province so much money,I said the other day. and this was just an opinion right off the top of my head 1that I though that the Cole contract would cost the people of this Province an arm and a leg.I thouqht it was val.ued at three qull~ers of a million dollars but I have !Iince been reminded by people in tile know that the pension benefits of that contract alone are wortb a half a Jllil.lion dollars. The ·pension concessions, the pension benefits ~e worth somewhere between a quarter of a million and a a half million. 1.1.40

July 31 1 1979 Tape No. 448 DW- 3 MR. S. NEARY: SO 1 Mr. Chairman 1 I have to revise ru.y original estimates, that the contract is probably worth $1.5 million ~o $2 million. No : one man is. wort.h that. Mr. Chairmall ! And as .my hon. colleague indicated.,the present Premier or the members sitting on the Government benches at the present t~ who were lllelllbers of that corrupt Moores administration can weasel their way out of it, They cannot do it, Sir~ It may be intexpreted that we are aiding and abetting the present Premier and the adminis .tration C)f puttinq the distance between themselves and Mr.

MOOres, well I would say so be it. We cannot help that. If there are people who are narrow-minded enough to interpret our intentions that way, so be.it,we cannot help it. These people know fu,H wen, if the:r· are intelligent people, if they are thinkinq people 7 that the present Premier and sollll! of the people sitting on the Govenunent benches were members o£ that Cabinet that made that decision.

Maybe the llll!ssaqe is not getting out to the ordinary people but that is our faul.t if we are not getting the message across • We had a whole election in order to do that and we let the hon. gentleman get away scott free by coming out and telling the people of this Province,We are bom again, we have been living in sin for the last seven or ei¢tt years. hut now we are s-aved. i\nd we let the hon. gentleman qet away with it l ' .... ( t ; •.' / 'I . 11.41.

Jul y 31. 19 79 Tape 449 IB-1 MR. NEA.I~Y : while at the same time one of his chief henchmen, one of his hatchetmen, Mr. Crosbie, was going around the Province condemning the former Liberal Administration that went out of existence in 1972. 'Step into the future with Peckfora: we were told. Forget the past. sweep it all under the rug. Forget about it, not worth both~ring about. And his chief spokesman, bully boy crosbie, up in Ottawa was going around condemning Mr. Smallwood and the former Liberal Administration and got away with it. How he ever got away with it, Sir, is beyond me.

The hon. gentleman has to accept his share of responsibility for this dastarclly act. AN HON. ME!mER: (.Inaudible) yet? MR. NEARY: I am talking about the special Action Collllllittee. This dastardly act on behalf of the Moores Administration - the hon. gentleman was a senior minister in ·that administration when tl).at decision was made and the bon. gentleman,although not a member of the administration,was supporting that adlllinistration in this House and the bon. gentleman has to take his share of the blame. There is no way, Mr. Chairman, they can weasel their way out of it.

And if the message does not get out to the people that all these gentlemen that I a111 referring to were members of the administrati ·on that made that decision, sir, th~ that is our fault or the fault · of the people up over my head that I have been referring to for the last several days. AN HON. MEMBER: NobodY 1;here now. All gone! MR. NEARY: weU they are listening, do not worry. They are listening inside. They have their little earplugs in. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) a word you say, not a word of it can they h~. MR. CHAIRMAN {BAIIID) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, one thing about me, Sir, llere on the floor of this House, that I do not c.are if one word that I utter gets reported. I do not caret As long as I do my job in this House, that is all that counts. And every other member should keep that in the back of his mind, that there is n9 way, Mr. Chai:cnan, there is no way that I am going to sit here - and I have been here now seventeen 11.42 :f 1 '1, ::t t r ( I

Jul y 31 , 1979 Ta pe 449 IB-2 years and I have seen a lot of members come and go - there is no way, Sir, that I am going to let this hon. crowd sit over there ~nd wash tbeir hands. Now all of the sudden they have become saved and they are going to displi!Il Mr. Moores and the former administration even though, Sir, they sat around that table d,own on the Eighth Floor of Confederation Building. They cannot do it, Sir.

Under the British Parliamentary system if a minister does not like a decision that is made in cabinet he has one of two things that he can do; he can keep quiet_, he can sit in the House and let the announcement be macl.e, let the decision be made or he can resign. I did not hear of the hon. the Premier resigning over the special ACtion Group and Mr. Cole ' s contract. I did not hea.;- tell of the hon. gentleman resigning. So I can only assume that the hon. gentleman went along with it with his eyes wide open·. And, Mr.

Chairman, as I say, it will be unfortunate indeed if the editorial writers and the newsmen in this Province let the hon. gentleman get away scot-f~e with saying, 'Ah, I ~ going to i.nve$ti .gate this and I am going to cancel this and I am going to do away with that to try to leave the impression of honesty and integrity when the hon. gentleman himself has to share .the blame and the responsibility for that decision. It was made when the hon •. gentleman was a senior minister in the Moores Administration.

And it is a terrible decision and it is going to cost the ·taxpayers of this ~rovince a fantastic am,ount of money to get out of that eon tract. Tbe hon. gentleman told us the other day that he sent for Mr. Cole to come in. He W?Ulted to talk to him. H.e said Mr. cole was not in the Province. At the time Mr . Cole was up in Labrador with the .former Premier of this Province, Mr. Moores and Mr. Dobbin, the helicopter magnate, all up salmon fishing and he was not in the Province, the hon. g.entleman tol,d us. MR. WHITE: Still a part of the Province. MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR.

WHITE: Still in the Provin ce . 1.1.43 :.( .f )

.July 31, 1979 Tape 449 IB-3 MR. NEARY: Sti~l in the Province. Labrador is still in the Province as far as I know. M]l. MO'RGAN: He is allowed to qo fishinq. MR . NEARY: Sure he is alloWed to go fishing but t;he b,on. the P·remier to.ld ~s, "I sent for Mr. Cole. He is out of the Provinc .e." Well I do not know if ~ in Ablatok or up fishing in the salmon rivers in Labrador is out of the Province or not. I did not hear of Rene Leve. s~e taking over Pabrador yet. PREMIER PI!:CKFORD: How did you know I was referring to Labrador? MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman said Mr. COle was out of the P:J;Ovince. Right. MR.

NEARlr: Well,what I want to know now, Sir., is has the hon. gentleman had the opportunity to sit down yet with Mr. Cole tc J '' , '• 1.1.44 . .,.

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 450 SD- l MR. S. NEARY: see how much it is goinq to co~;t the taxpayers of this Province to get. QUt of tlult contract~ ~e bcn. gentleman should give us a11. updating .And if we stay on this one i ~ for another week or so, if we have the time, until this matter is settled, I wot~ld say we have done a good turn here in CCXIIIIIitt·ee of the Whole. And I would like for the bon. gentlelllall to get up now and tell us where we sta:cd iiS far as the Cole contract is coneerned. And hon. members, I do not have to r ·emind hon. members that I like Mr. COle. He is a good hockey anDO\lll~.

I th,ink he is great, he has done wonders for Newfolllld.land broadcasting the hockey games.. But one thinq you have to remember 1 that he was only a part.-t:Lm.e Chairman of this special Act;,ion Group,. For that he got pai.d ~o.s million for ten years or he will he paid, plus a senior deputy • s appointment after his contract expires, plus the ilse of helicopters, plus the usa of aircraft, plus the use of motor vehicles, plus a very generous pension pl.an.

Now, I think the Premier has sat there lonq enough alld remained silent • .I think it is time he got up now and apart from just making a confession, brought us up to date on what is happening to this Cole contract• Where do we go fran here and hew much is it going to cost us, the taxpayers, to get out of this contract? The bon. the President of the Counc:U. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr·. Chairman, just a few words on the remarkS that have be~ pa!;Sed by the tbree previous speakers, just merely to draw to the attention of the Collllll,ittee the nature and weight and the extre~~~e weight of their remarks ~elves.

And before I do that; Mr •• Cha.irm;m, I would-hasten to i.:cd:icate that I am not. attempting to tell the Opposition how long they may speak, what the members of the Opposition may speak about and what the depth and the breath of what they say. But I 1145 t I ::t , I

.Ju.ly 31, l979 Tape o. 450 SD - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: would like to. dr.aw to ybw: attention that the non. gentlemen have chosen t9 talk in the vien of talkin.q al:out a vote that really is no mere. They are talking about an aetion cammittee that is no more. They are talking al:out a measure that Wa.s in the past. They are talking about a group that the government has indicii.te .d is no more and the only purpose of this vote here lis to malce. pa:y~~~ent for tllQse items fQl:" this year before the group was· actually disbanded. The group has been dis.~ed and w:a:,o dis~deci when the Budqet Speech was given.

It was indicated in the Budget Speech itself. Aild I do not see aey point in the bon. gentleman there opposite talking about, like the bon. member for Burgee - Bay d 'EIOPO.i:r (~ • .R. Simmons), tal.ld.ng al:out the born-again administration, the hbn. member for LaPoile {Mr. s. Neazy) tiiJJdnq about a group, as r say, which is no more. The fact of the matter is that this is a new administration. rt is an administration that is prepared to malta chan<.res, it. has made changes and one of the changes , Mr. Chairman, has been in this Action Group itself.

Now, we are here bef.ore this camni.ttee, r suggest, for the purpose of exalll.ininq expenditure!! which the government proposes to m.ake.and not for the pUrpOse of talking about expenditures that the qoverlllllent has already illlli.cated it is rot 9'0inq to lllake. MR. D. JAMIESON: MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: With the greatest of reSpect to the hon. House Leader (Mr. w. Marshall) , he iii putting an extremely narrow

interpretation, first of all, on wbat the Opposition's rights are and secondly, what the purpo~;e of CDI!IIIIitt;ee of the Whole is. And the secol:ld thing he is doing is; of co.urse, confirming what the ban. member for LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary) has said and that is that it is perfectly obvious that they want to put as much distance as possible between the dacisions that they hav~ now made and propose U46 / ' . \

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 450 SD - 3 MR. D. JAMIESON: to make for the future and those that were made in the past. Now, it is !lOt necessary for me, I was not a member of the House at that time, consequently my colleagues are far better able then I to assess what that particular organization or particular group to which we are now referring, whether it was effective or not. It appears from the government 1 s decision to disband it, that it was not effective and that everything \ II ·( 11.47

. KL._ -· --·- - · July 31, 1979 Tape !!lo. 451 GH-1 MR • .JAMIESON: that has been said by bon. members on this side, is in fact t:rue. But apart from that, this idea that in some way or otner we ought to turn· the key on some~iung uu11: is oucstanciing, whether the hon. member is talking about expenditures for things that went on before the Budget or whatever the case might be, there is a continuity here, ami with the greatest of respect and whether my h6n. friend from Lapoile (Mr. S.

Neary) is cor-rect in the precise figures that he has quoted or not, I am not sure, but I can say that it surely wa-s a very rich kind of arrangement that was made. An(i to this day, ! . . ~ to this minute so far as we are aware, there is no indication (

a) that it has been formally terminated, or (

b) that it has been formally terminated in a manner that is not going to be enormously expensive and costly. If the hen. the Premier can say that legal means have been found through which the Action Group is ended, the contract no longer stands, t¥t there has been no necessity or no reason to, in a sense, buy out the contract, that it has terminated as the hon. the Bouse Leader has said with the Budget, with the Throne Speech or whatever it was, if that is the case, then that is one matter. We have invited the Premier to answer whether or not (

a) he has had his meeting with the former Director; secondly, what kind of a cOnclusion did that meeting come to. Surely, Mr. chairman, it is not either unreasonable or i.mprop .er nor are we attributing motives when we say that here is a situation in which a government entered into a ten-year contract. I assUIIIe. I can only assume in the absence of any assurances to the .. contrary, that it was something which had the approval of the E¥ecutive ,. • .. Counc.il or of whatever name one wishes to apply to it, the Cabinet or whatever the group is. I can only assume that that is the cas.e.

Therefore, once again it is surely reasonable and fair ami just to point out that there are hen. members opposite who participated in that. Now, for my part, I repeat that its effectiveness or otherwise is not the issue. The disposal of the group in te£mS of their absorption in the service or being let go is nat the issue. The issue is not even, insofar as I am concerned, the propriety and the ri.ghtness of the government changing its mind. It has every right 1:148 f ' t I

Jul y 31 , 1979 Tape No . 451 Gl:l- 2 MR. JAMIESON: to do that. Consequently, on all of those scores, I am not in the slightest bit concerned with prolonging thi.s partJ.cular debate. There is, however, an outstanding J.ssue. There was a quite remarkable contract signed. Everybody is aware of that. The details have been p~Wlished.

What we want to know is very straight- forward and very simple and that is whether or not that contract itself h;~s now, in fact, been terminated and what,indeed,are th!! t~s of settlement, if any~ Now, if we can get an answer to that particular question them all of the rest of it, it se~ to me, beccmes irrelevant, but the bas.ic iss'u!i! is that one and I think the hon. Premier, I have no doiWt, w.ill try and I am sure will do his best to limi.t, if you like, the amount of exposure, perhaps end it totally, but it is not, I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, appropriate - it may be appropriate for the hon. the House Leader to say what he wi.shes - but I have had on these last three or four days this feeling all of the time that in s~ way or other there is something dast4rdly about the business of asking questions, that yesterday and without repeating at great length what was said by the hon. member for Burgee Bay d'Espoir (Mr. R. Silllmon.

s) ll49 ·; ':( f I

.Jul.y 31, 1979 Tape 452 m-1 MR. JAMIESON: what was not said in the debate - Why? - because we are stopping- the clack in order to do it; was that; in fact 7 tnere was no awareness on our part ahead of time that the gove:mment was in the particul.ar bind that it was. I, again appreciate that the PreJI!ier was not himself,as he indicated to the Hause, aware of these circumstances.

I have said that I appreciate the fact that he has indicated that that kind of thing wi..ll not happen again.J but let us nat have a situation in which ~ery time an Opposition 1 which after all is elected for that purpose - a:nd as I said in mv openinq COllllllents in this Rouse some weeks aqo, that everv time we ask reasonable questions that in some way or other we are (a) ·delaying the work of the House or that (

b) there is sQiile1;.hing inappxopriate about what: we are saying. Now1 hon. members opposite and the hen, House Leader (Mr. Marshall), most of all, has pu_t together a set of rules on which we worked, on which we co-operated and which we, as I said at that time, would abide by. Now, we have c.ertain hollrs which are attributed to this Qpposition and if we choose under the proper Heading and in the appropriate way to spend all of that time on a particular item,then we are entirely free to do so.

And I regret deeply that it may inte'rfer som.etimes with the nice tidy mind of the han. the House Leader on the government side (Mr. Marsball)J but the truth. of the matter is that we ·have not breached nor d() we intend to breach any of the rules or the regulations and that this is quite an appropriate comment for us. to make. MR. MARSRAI.L: Would the han. member permit me a queation? MR. JAMIESON: Of course. The hon. the Pre.sident ot the COuncil. MR.

MARSHALL: It surely is c~etent for a member of this House, even the House Leader, to pass upon the quality of the Oppos:i. tian in • the same way as the genera.J. public woul.d and has in the paat. MR. J'AMIESON: Oh, there is no question about that. And if th.e hon. gentleman wants to put in that kind of snide remark let him be aware that it i~ perfectly possible for a.ll of us on this side to do exactly ll50 J ''

July 31,1979 Tape 4$ 2 MR. JAMIESON: the same kind of thing, Nothing wrong with commenting . on the qUality. In fact 1 I was COI1!JIIenting on the quality of th~ hon. gentleman 1 s intervention <;iS being not very good :basic awareness o:f; pa.rli.al!lentary procedure when he talked about it because he went beyond the qUa.lity, he went far beyond that 1 he went to ~e point of questioning the appropriateness of our ld.nd of intervention. That is the poi.pt, not the quality. That was not the issue,and my hon. friend,if he reads the Hansard,will realize that I did not address myself to any of .those points.

I did not! I said that the issue was wnether or not we were appropriate in disctissing this under this particular Reading. That is all I said and that is the question I ask now. And I e111phasize once again th;i.t I a.m merely saying to the bon. members opposite th,at this is surely a perfectly legitimate question for us to ask. If the hon. Prelllier wants to say that he has not resolved this issue as yet, obviously, there is nothing more we can do about it nor would we wish to. But al.l I illll asking is ·whether or not this matter has been resolved and the mantler in which it has been resolved.

And that is all my hon. friends are asking. SoME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD): 'i11he hon. the Premier. P:REMIER PECXFORD: There is only one proble111 with what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition just said and. it is this, th;;t.t - and I am sorry that he sees fit to condone the actions of a number of his members .. It just so happens that the han. lllelllber for Burgee- Bay d 1 Espoir (.Mr. Simmons) and the han. the member for Latloile ~. Nearyl with whose comments the hon.

Leader of the Oppositio .n wants to be associated, is condoning comments that were made by the member for Burgee-Bay d 1 E~oir. Of his ten minutes, the hon. member spent about one minute talking about the contract of the Chairman of the Action Group. The rest of the time he stood in his place and talked and used words l~e deceit and lack of character . And his ill!plication was clear, that there were many people on this side of the House who were part of a former administration 11.51. 1 ' :~ .f I

July 31, 1979 Tape 452 PREMIER PECKFORD: in whic.h there w¢e things done that were not right. That is what the hon. the me!liber for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Sill1!110ns) was talkinq about and he was not addressing himself to what the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) would have us believe that he was addressing hi.m$elf to, and that was the question of the contract that Mr. Cole ba_s. .lUld if that is the only question that the hon. Leader of the Opposition has or any members on the opposite side, well fine, that i~:; fine. But the problem was that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) got up in what I would cal.l 'Neary's Lament' and talked about and apologized for the fact that the Liberal Party lost the election just recently and the reasons for it which had very little to do with Mr. Cole's contract or very little to do with the Special Action Group. Now, I think that is the point that the President of the Council was talking about, it was the quality of debate as it related to the relevance to the ~ial

section here now in the Executive COl,lllcil. That is thii! point,that the two hen. members who caxne before the Leader of the Opposition talked very little about the whole principl.e. Mr. Chai:rman, if we are going to tal.k about the Special. Action Group we should be talking about, what a:re the ways and means in which government can expedite applications from entrepreneurs around this Province. I .s the present system, is this act by the government of el.iminating the Special Action Group going to in any way inhibit or mitigate against SIQall businessmen in this Province? Is it \ 't ~ l 1152

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 453 GB-1 PREMIER PECKE'ORD: enough for the government, is it enough for the government of this Province right now, this new, administration that has only teen e:tected three or four weeks, is it enough for them to say they are going to eliminate something that was part of another administration? Is it not proper for that new government to indicate new initiatives that it intends to take?

Will the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development be able to accoromodate and expeditiously handle all the requests that are going to co~;~~e in now that the Action Group has been disbanded? Will the Department of Industrial Development be able t:D, with the existing programs it has, witl:t the existing staff that it has, now be able to ,handle it? Are we going to see s,cme opening up of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation to put in place of this special Action Group which had, over the last number of years, somewhere in the order of 12, 544 phone calls?

If I was on the Opposition side of the House, Mr. Chairman, I weuld be asking some very serious questions about the role that the government, this new adlp.inistration, intends ,to take to ensure tha'l: those thousands of phone calls and those millions O'f dol:tars which were ~edited by an Action Group are now going to be able to be accommodated in the existing departments of government, or will we just see more creeping bureaucracy and more red tape in government? That is the approach that I think, Mr. Chai,;lllan, that the President of the Council wou:td like to see the Opposition take.

That is the kind of an approach that I woUld like to see the Opposition take, to debate on the principle of whether government is doing enough and if we have to do it ourselves, if we have to criticize ourselves, Mr. Chairman, that i,S what we will do. And I want to question now today and I want to say to the Minister of Rural, A-g-ricultural and Northern Development, I want to say to the minister he better be very careful over the ne:Kt whi:te, because he is going to have additional phorte cal1s, and I do not want to get calls from the constituents of f ' i J , '• r I 1.153

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 453 GH-2 PREMIER PECl<FORD: Green Bay. I do not want to get calls from the constituents of Green Bay saying that their application was held up unnecessarily and tnat they should nave kep~ the Ac~ion Group. I want to address a question and an observation to the Mil).ister of Industrial Development (Mr. L.

BarrY) and indicate to him that I hope that he has arranged his department so as to acc01111110date all of these additional calls that will be coming in and that no entrepreneur will be unnecessarily hung up so that we can get on with the mandate of creatulg jobs in this Province and making sure that rural Newfoundlanders, even though they are not as well educated as some people in ur:t:>an areas, still will get a chance to get ·their sawmill going and get their .timberjack and qe.t their new fish processinq plant in place. And I want to make sure that these ministe~s do that, and I apologize, Mr.

Chairman, I apologize tha,t this institution called the House of Assembly in this Province, has not to this date since we start~d today, seen fit to have members on the opposite side to fully and constructively criticize government for a major departure in policy as it relates to industrial development. SOME EION. ME:MBERS; Hear, he·ar! MR •. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Butt} Order, order! The Iron. the Leader of the Opposition~ MR. JAMIESON: Mr.

Chairman, I have se.en some diversionary tactics in ~ time but I will tell you that that has to be the most diversionary of all and if the hon. member wants to let the house leaders,between now and whenever the appropriate.moment is, let them qet together and I will be delighted to take dep.artment by department, assign as much time· as is necessary .to this particular Head, and to dis.cuss for as many hours as the hon. Premier wishes the whole information strategy and policy of the government. I make him that offer now, I make it to the House Leader.

We will assign as much 11.54 , . .. , '•( t , : \ ::1 ' ~ ·r ' I

Jul y 31 , 1979 Tap e No. 4.53 G!f- 3 MR. J~IESON: time to it as is necess~ry. we wi.ll, instead of the rhetorical questions that the leader of the government hcl,s been puttlng here this afternoon, we will get c.o ask those kinds of questions that he is speaking of. My own impression was that we woUld, of ccaurse, be doing that as my colleaques have been doing it in the COIDIIIittees of tl:le House in the las.t two days, and we will be continuing to do tha.t under the various Heads as they are presented to us. But, Mr.

Chairm;m, in the last analysis as I sit, may I just ask this question, "In all of that magnificient piece of rhetoric, what about the contract?" PREMIER PECl<FORD: Mr. Chainnan. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Baird) The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: The Leader of the Oppos·ition is apologizing for his members and the fact that they cU.d not obviously ask the right questions and debate the right issues because he wants more time.

Now, ~bon. the Leader of the Opposition is going to have to work within the rules that we have established and tea ensure that his ll)embers on his side o.f ~ House constructively cr.iticize govermnent, and for that I offer no apologies. The time is there. If the bon. member for Burgeo Bay d'~spoir (Mr. R. SimmQns) did not see fit to do justice to this SUbhead, if the bon. member for Lapoile (Mr. s.

Neary) did not do justice to this Subhead, I am very sorry but that is one of the things that the members on the opposite si4e are going to have to learn that when these things come, they are going to h~ve 1155 :~ ·~ ·,

July 31, 1979 Tape No. 454 so - l PREMIER PECKFOBO: tc criticize them in a constructive manner. As for the contract, it is under negotiation. MR. CHAilOOIN: (Baird) The hon. member for Lai'oile. MR. S. NEARY : Mr. Chairman, the - MR. D, JAMIESON: Will the bon. member - MR. CWURMAN: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. D. J'AMIESON: I did oct hear the last part.- It is under neqotiation? PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, I am in the process of meeting with the leader of the Action Group. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Cbairlllan, we heard t;be hon. the Premier there a few m0111el1ts ago, Sir, give his rebu.ttle to ~ criticiSIII that was leveled fz:'Qm this dde of the House, especially by DIY collea~, the lllellll:ler for Burgee - Bay d 'Espoir (Mr. R. Simmcns) ,and myself. The ben. gentluan crNted a house of cards that can be so easily knocked down, Mr. Cha.UII!an, because what the hon. qeatleman said about all the phone calls and all the industry and all the bus±ness has no 1110re to do with this Action Group then the hon. gentleman qoinq to the 11100n, has nothing to do with it.

It was just a figliiiUlt of SOIIIebody' s imagination, Mr. Moores I would think, Frank D. Moores, who WilS making a sweetheart deal with one of his bUddies using the taxpayers' money, $2 or $3 or $4 million of taxpayers' money, down the drain, you maY as well have taken it and thrown it out the window of Confederation a'u.ilciinq. That is what we are talkinq about, Mr. Cbairman. It has nothing to do with whether the hon. gentlelilan is going to get calls from his constituents saying the application is delayed or criticizing him for this. It has nothi.nq to do with it, sir, nothing at all.

The government would have been better off if they had taken the $2 or $3 or $4 million and given it to Dial-A-Prayer. 'l:hey 'II!OUld have gotten the same results. 11.56 t ' t I

July 31, 1979 Tape No.454 ow- 2 MR. MORGAN: They keep saying the same thin<JS over and over and over again. You said the same thing yesterday as you said today. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chab:man, we ar.e going to keep saying the sue things. The only way that you can remedy and rectify mismanagement, abuse of power, corruption, sweetheart deals is keep saying it over and over and over and over aqain and I will say it over and over and over again if I have to to save the taxpayers of this Province a dollar. Because, Mr. Chairman, one of our prime purposes for being in this B:ause is to protect the Public Treasury.

One of the main reasons for us being here as members is to look after revenue and expenditure of taxpayers' money and when we look around us and we see the taxpayers of Newfoundland spending $2 lllillion and $3 million and $4 million on theU: .buddies, then, Mr. Chai:cnall, we have every right to =iticize. That mOney could have been better spent in mY opinion, bUildinq houses for poor people in this Province. Mr. Cole did not need the money,he was doing quite well at the CBC plus what he was making in broadcasting hockey games. He was doing quite weU. for himself, was quite successful. until Mr.

Moore:s grabbed him aiid I am sure now that Mr. Cole is sorry for W,s bargain with all the unfavourable publicity that he has gotten. And that is rather unfortunate! Mr. Moores had a tendancy of using people . a:e used the bon. Premier who is sitting there right now and 11e used the han. Minister of Lands and Forests (M;r. Morgan) and he used the fo:cner Minister of Public Works - he used two former Ministers of Public work!;. A!ld we all know what happened to them, they are no longer with us. We all know about the comm:ission of Inquiry, the Mahoney commission. we all know about fires! And so, Mr.

Chairman, if the bon. gentleman wants to debate this matter then he is going to have to put up with a little bit of criticiSlll because as I have said before, the hon. gentleman was a senior minister in that government and the hon. gentleman is as 11.57

Jul y 31, 1979 Tape No. 454 ow - 3 MR. S • NEARY: responsible as much as Frank Moores of diverting that money, $3 mil. lion or $4. million from the Public Treasury to Mr. Bob Cole and the Action Group. And as I say~ that 1110ney could havg been better spent, buyinq wheel chairs for =iPFle people. fo;r: =ipple children in this Province. The 1110ney could have been better spent buyinq crutches for little children. The goverJllllent has oo programl!le of providing crutches for =ipple children but they have programmes for their buddies, for Mr. Bob Cole and we are not allowed to talk about that.

The goverJllllent would have been :tetter off allocating that money for prescription dmlqs for senior citizens who cannot afford to buy pres=iption drugs that they need to look after. their health. MR. STAGG: What a red herring! MR. S • NEARY: The hon. gentleman talks about red herrings - he shollld talk to his bon. colleague, the Premier, who just dragged in oot a red herrinq but a red whale into the debate when he talked about a.ll of the phone calls, and all the load that is going to be on Rural Developllient.

As a matter of f ·ac:t,the boa. gentleman should ha11e read yesterday 1110rninq's lleWspap~ and see that the USB r ' :.t f I

J uly 3 1, 1979 Tape 455 IB-1 MR. NEARY: Rurai Development allocation has been reduced by $500,000. They are in the process now of phasing out that programme that we have been telling them. is nothing but a slush fund for the last six or seven years. That is all it has been, a slush fund for the go:ve=ment. Mr. Chainnan, I am glad, I am haPPY that the policy is changing, that there is going to be no more expensive sweetheart deals with your buddies. I will be very happy to see the han. gentleman do away with the helicopter conuact that is costing the people of this Province $4 million or $5 million.

And as I said to the han. gentleman the other day, the han. gentleman can deal with all the min~>r details that he wants, Mr. Cole and Mr. Nutbeam and the rental of office space doWn at Atlantic Place but he also has to deal with Mr. Dobbin and the helicopter contract and he has to deal with the scandals in connection with Labrador Li.nerboa.rd. The bon. gentleman just cannot pick and choose the minor :;tuff and let all the major stuff go by.

Then I would say the ho11. gentleman is sincere in t:eyinq to show that he is trying to bring integrity into his administl:ation and honesty and trying to be truthful with the people of this Province. we worked over t1<iO years trying to persuade this crowd to get rid of the special Action Group, over two years. And now all of the sudden they come into the House of .Assembly and they say, "Well now we are going to do it". And we say, "That is well and good. That is fine." But how much is it going to cost? So far we do not have a figure on it.

The hon. gentleman just told us a few ~nts ago they are in the process now of n:egotiat:ipg with Mr. Cole. Well 1 I say it is going to cost an arm and a leg and the han. gentleman who occupies that seat has to accept the blame for that. lie cannot weasel his way out of it. He did not resign from the Cabinet. He stayed in the Cabinet and he has to take his share of the blame. So even though the bon. gentleman may think in his mind that he is doing a wonderful thing, no doubt he is. I do not know how much it will save the taxpayers if it wil~ save them a cent, I do not know.

But the bon. gentleman at the same time U59 ., I t I •.

July 31, 1979 Tape 455 m-2 MR. NEARY: should be prepared to get up and say to the taxpayers of this Province, who pay the highest taxes in canada, that I am sorry, I was a part of that administration, I made a gigantic blunder, I am sorry, I will try to do the best I can now to remedy it and rectify it. And it has nothing to do, Mr. Chairman, with new direction, new policy. We heard all about the government's policy and their direction in the Throne Speech that did not have an original idea in it. Why, Mr. Chairman, this crowd that are now getting up ·t 1ii' I ' 'i/· :/ I ' ·. 1:160

July 31, 1979 Tape No . 456 Gfl-1 MR. NEARY: and telling us they are born again, that they have been saved, did not create one indlJ.stry in this Province. They did not open one miner they did not build one fish plant; they did not build one hospital. MR. MORGAN: Do not be so silly, do I)ot be so silly. MR. NEARY: Well, why does not the hon. gentleman partic.ipate? MR. MORGAN: No fish plants built in the last seven years? MR. ·NEARY: No, Sir, no fish plants. The one down in Arnold's Cove is the only one that is in the process of being built by private enterp:rise.

The former administration h<ld a hand, I am talking about the Liberal administration, h<ld a hand in building every fish plant that was built in NeWfoundland, every one, bar none; every one, bar none. There -would be no fishing industry in this Province today only for the Smallwood administration. MR. MORGAN: The 'burn your boat' policy. MR. NEARY: Ah, Mr. Chairman, listen to • chawmouth • . MR. MORGAN: 'Burn your boat' policy. MR. NEARY: So, Mr.

Chairman, the hon. gentleman just gave us a very vague answer in response,reacting to the Leader of the Opposition, brushed it off by sayinq, "We are in the process now of negotiating". ·Mr. Chairman, I often wander who governs this Province. The hon. gentleman is Premier. This particular gentleman is unde:t contract. He can be directed, ordered, grabbed by the scruff of the neck, haUled into the Premier's office and say, "Look, I am the Premier of this Province. we are the government.

We are elected into the Legislature of this Province and, by God, you had better smarten up, you better smarten up". we have to take the guff. I suppose in one way, we are loo.ked upon as a joke by the people o:t; this Province because of one ~~lim · We have had to take it from the university for the last several years. They refuse to give us their budget in this House and new we have one individual. The government is spending all its time 1161. :~ t I

J uly 31 , 1979 Tape No. 456 GH- 2 MR. NEARY: ~Jing to track down Mr. Cole to get him to come in to .have a meet:i,ng. Why, if it was me, i f I b.ecame Premier of this Province, not on.Ly would I cancel the Action Group but I would make sure that Mr. Cole found an office down in Mary's Harbour in southern Labrador somewhere. That is where he would he sent, and he would not he long backing out of b;is contract. That is the sort of treatment. We should not have to crawl or kowtow or bow to anybody, and the hon. the Premier should not have to do it. The hon.

Premier should lay the law down and if he does not g.et in here, he should have been in here the next day, and if he does not come in then transfer him up to - and I was going to say Makkovik hut that is a beautiful spot up there in my hon. friend's - M;R. SI!'IMONS : Lapoile. MR. NEARY: No, put him down in - give him