VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, DECEMBER 15, 1983 NO. 7Cf

December 15, 1983 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 4023 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leade·r of the Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transportation. It has to do with the ferry, the Inch Arran,that operates between Little Bay Islands and Shoal Arm. Would the hon. gentleman inform the House what the trouble is with this ferry that it has not operated since sometime yesterday morning? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, no, I would have to check with my officials to find out if in fact there is a problem and I will certainly report back to the hon. member. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, ~x. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Would the hon. gentleman also look into the possibility of having the Island Joiner take over the runs of the Inch Arran to transport people back and forth? I understand there is a big backlog of passen­ gers there now, people waiting to get to see doctors and to visit hospitals and so forth.

Would the hon. gentleman undertake to see if it is possible to get the other ferry to operate, not to Pilley's Island but to Shoal Arm? 8966

December 15, 1983 MR . SPEAKER (Russell): Transportation. MR. DAWE: Tape 4023 EC - 2 The hon . the Minister of Mr . Speaker, there is a Director of Ferry Operations within my department.

We are in daily contact, particularly with the ferry oper­ ations that the hon . gentleman just referred to, in that they are, in fact, operated by the department , What ever action is necessary as it relates to doubling up the use of the existing ferries out there, as has been done in the past up unti l the point in time where we just recently christened the Island Joiner for the Long Island service, if tha~ indeed is necessary, then I will check, of course, but I am sure that depar tment officials are on top of that . 8967

December 15, 1983 MR. NEARY: •' MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. Tape No. 4024 MJ - 1 Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. The hon. the Leader of the ~~. NEARY: Is the hon. gentleman aware that the people have already been in touch with the director referred to by the hon. gentleman but he has been unco-operative? The decision has been unsatisfactory to the people in Little Bav Islands so would the hon. gentleman see if it is possible to resolve the matter? That is why it is being raised in the House. Because the people are not satisfied with the decision tl;ley got.

Now would the hon. gentleman tell the House if the problems with the Inch Arron have been ongoi:1g problems? I understand that when the ferry had her annual refit they put ballast in the bow of the ferry that caused the stern part to come out of water and there are serious problems now developed with leaking from the shaft of the ferry. Would the hon. gentleman be able to enlighten the House if he is aware, if he knows anything about this, or is~the hon. gentleman on top of it at all? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, it is amazing how quickly the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Neary) has become familiar with the ferry system in this Province. Mr. Speaker, also within the department 1..re have some specific marine mechanics stationed in the Grand Falls office whose responsibility it is to look after the maintenance requirements of the vessels in our system, something that was not in place until just recently, During refit we have been in contact with the residents of the islands that are serviced. We are in constant contact with them 1 and recommendations that they make as they relate to the particular vessels, 8968

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4024 MJ- 2 MR. NEARY : how the service can be improved , how various structural defects, if they are defects of the vessels can be improved and this is an ongoing process. What the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) is saying I am not familiar with and I can only assume it is here.say on his part but certainly I will check into it and if there is any cause for any concern or any action to be required it will certainly be done . MR . NEARY : Mr . Speaker , 8969

December 15, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape 4025 PK - 1 The han. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. When it comes to ferry systems, I believe, Mr. Speaker, I am as familiar with ferry systems as the han. gentleman.! spent half of my life crossing back artd forth to Bell Island on the Portugal Cove Tickle on a ferry when the han. gentleman was wearing diapers, Mr. Speaker. But let me ask the han. gentleman a supplementary 1because this is not heresay.

The information comes from the people in Little Bay Islands, Would the han. gentleman ensure the House that before this ferry is put back into operation that his department will make sure that the leak has been stopped and that the ferry is seaworthy? MR. SPEAKER MR. DAWE: The han. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, that assurance has always been present.

And I understand~ -! just checked with the office, in fact- the people of Long Island and Little Bay Islands, particularly, have been informed that if the problem is not adequately corrected by tomorrow then certainly the Island Joiner will be servicing both areas. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. That may be so,that the Island Joiner will be servicing both areas, but will the passengers from Little Bay Islands be taken to Shoal Arm instead of Pelley's Island which is an hour and a half drive from Springdale?

These people, if the service is implemented, want to go to Shoal Arm where it 8970

December 15, 1983 MR. NEARY : hour on the ferry and Tape 4025 PK - 2 is only three-quarters of an half an hour or so to Springdale by car rather than an hour and a half. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Transportation. MR. DAWE: The han. Minister of Mr. Speaker, the details of how that particular process are to take place are being worked out by the staff officials who are dealing with it on a daily basis. MR. SPEARER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I want to return for a few moments to the Green Bay ferry fiasco we talked about yesterday during the Oral Question Period to see if I can get some satisfactory answers from the hon. gentleman today. Could the han. gentleman tell the House what was the matter with the ferry Green Bay Transport II that caused the value of the ferry to drop so drastically from $678,000 down to $250,000? What was wrong with the ferry? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, what is indicated in the booklet is,I guess,an estimate of perhaps what the vessel would fetch on the open market.

In essence there were three apprasials done during the negotiations for the purchase of that particular vessel. Two the department had done were two different 8971

Decei!1Per 15 1 l983r Tape 4026r Page 1, -:--- a,~b K."R..

DAWE: Two t,h.a t t.he departn\ent. ha,d doner two different ones were about $l0..0..( 0.0.0 . ~apa,rt, Op_e est .imate put tl:\:e value of tfie vess:el , at just ovel:i $5.0..0.. r000 . and the other es·t.imate just over $400...~000 .1 the exact a.mounts: I: can cert .ainly make ava ,i:la,b],e t.o t.he House., A.t the same ti'me ., t.h.e . owp_er of the ve.s·sel had an appraisal, done by· a.n. app-ra .~s :al, fi .rll) that apprais-ed the . repLacement va,Lue. of the vessel, at some. $L •. 25 miLlion, S'o the amount afiown! t.he $250 100 .0.. 1 is. a.n estimate t.hat . someone came up \ii ·tl'l. of wha,t the vessel ma,:y­ fetch . i.f i't was· bei:ng soLd as i:s:,where i:s:.

So the,re i:s : some di :screpency i:n those particul,a;t; fi :gures, •MR,. _ SPEAKER~us·s ·elll; The hon, the. :Le.ad,eJ;" of the. Oppositi'On ., MR;. NEAR,Y; !~, Speaker~, I thank the. han .. gentle."'lan fop that informa,tj:on 1 but then my question reall.y had to do w.tth the fina.l. · fig1,1re tha.t was· a,g:t:eed on., which I' think. wa,s the mark.et vaLue of the ferry f $2..5.0...~ 0.0..0.., Why did the value of the fe,r:t;y d,rop s:o drastical.l,Y'? wna ·t was wrong w:i:th . the ferry, tha.t is wha,t I am a.skin..g the han., gnetleman, , that ca .used it to drop down to a. va,l.ue of $250, 000.? MR •.

SPEAKER: Trans ·porta.t.ion, MR ·. ·DAWE: The han.. the Minis .ter of Mr. Speaker 1 as I understand it, as r i:ndi:ca.ted there. were three appraisals actually done, two of them for the department by an appra..i:s:al fi'rm i'n basi'call,y th.e s·ame area o.f $500,000 and another one done by the. company wh+"ch in.di :cated that the . value of th-e vess·el was:$1. 25 million, There :ts no indicati·on from tha .t.

It is not uncorrunon when you a,:t;"e negotiating the. pr:tce . of a particular corrunod:tty to haye . apprai:s .als· done.,. one by government - in this case we ha,d two done - aPd on .e. by t.he owner and to either negotiate . or to 8972

Decembel:: J S:r J 9:83 ~ Tape. 40.26.~ j?a_ge. 2. """..,. a.rb MR, DA_w:E; have thl:'ou9'h aDb.i:.t.r -a. ti".o.n a. frguDed reached ~~t rs mutua,~~y acceptao~e. to ba~ . si ·de.s-, So t..liere- ts; no rndi'ca,tron that the val~e ofi' the. partrcular ve -sse l dr-opped fliom an Y' po:blt ;i3l. time., MR, SPEAKER Cl\.u sse 11, [; OppoS'd: .txon MR. · NID\RY: The bon., the L,e.ade.r of t~ Mr . Speake~, cogld t..ne. hon.. gent,lema .n te.l~ the. Hot+se Hhe+e the A,uq~ta;r Genera .l 9'0t tlie figur-e. of $2S:0 1,a::o:a. as · t_ne: appra. ~ ~e.d value of tl'l.a,t. fe.rry? MR . SPEAKER: Tne . non, t,be.

Mm,i:,st,e.r of Transpo:r::t.a.t ton, MR. DAWE:; !-ir, S!,'eaker r that que.sti .ap, ~ s pe.rl'laps oe.t.te.r di-rected to t.lie ,A.udrt.o:a Ge.n.eya,l, ~ , .. MR. &l?EAKER; Tlie. non, the ~e.a,de.r o:t; the. Opposi't.i'on, MR . ~Y: J-h", Spea.lc.er r a supplementa,ry, Would t.he ~":ni-st.er- t.h.en teil the. !rouse w!:t y the fe.r:r;y lola.s sold ±:or- one dol _l,a,:t:? I~ it ~-Tas valued _!)"! t'\'To .. ~Ptn::niGn.J.0 rcone_ by the bon . ge.n.t l,eman ~s m-.rn department and an a:s>praisal done by the owne.r, N~ ~ra.s it sold for one dollar? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Transportation. 8973

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4027 NM- 1 MR. D~'\T·~: Mr. Speaker, as hen. gentlemen will realize 1the Marystown Shipyard, who are now the owners of the vesseL had a specific use for the vessel. There are very limited uses for ferryboats, the marketplace is not that open. Certainly the market for ferry vessels itself suitable for particular services is not that vast either,and a practical, leaitirnate use was identified that that vessel could perhaps be better used for and enquiries were made by the Marystown Shipyard people if in fact they could acquire that vessel and that is what government did with it. MR.

NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hen. the Leader WeE then, will the hen. gentleman tell the House what will be c~,one with the ferry? Obviously it dropped from a market value of $400,000 or $500,000 - MR. TULK: $678,000. MR. NEARY: Well, $678,000 \'!as the original figur~ then appraisals done by the minister's own department valued it at $400,000 or $500,000, and by the owner $1.25 million. It went from that down to $1.00. Now what will happen to the ferry? What are they going to use it for? What? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, I will respond again, The Marystown Shipyard is owned by the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador as a Crown corporation. We _did not give it away to just anybody, it was identified by the Marystown Shipyard as .beinq of use to them. Perhaps the hen. gentleman may refer his question directly to the Marystown Shipyard. All I can indicate to him is that the vessel will be used as a vessel that will be used by crews 8974

December 15, 19B3 Tape No. 4027 NM - 2 MR. DAWE: in servicing the vast number of oil rigs that will be into Marystown as a result of the policies of this government. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : T he hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is absolutely incredible. Is the hon. gentleman saying that they gave that ferrv to the Marystown Shipyard for $1.00, not knowing what it was going to be used for? MR. DAWE: No. MR. NEARY: Well, I asked the hon. gentleman to tell me what it was going to be used for. SOME HON. MEMBERS': Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Let the hon. gentleman answer the question. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, perhaps one of the identifiable problems of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is that he "just do~s not listen. I indicated that the vessel will be used as a part of the Marystown Shipyard activity in servicing O'il rigs in the harbour of Marystown. At the present time people have to be 8975

December 15,1983 Tape No. 4028 ah-1 MR.DAWE: transported at meal times and various other times of the day,and there is some labour loss, some time loss and some inefficiences created by people having to move back and forth. This vessel will be adequately equipped by Marystown Shipyard they have looked at it, they have identified the changes they wish to make that will make that vessel very serviceable for their use. The crews and equipment will be able to be transported out,the men will be able to stay in position at the rigs and be able to carry out their activities that much more efficiently.

MR.NEARY: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The han. Leader of the Obviously, Mr. Speaker, as my colleague says 1the ferry does not need Canadian Steamship Inspection approval to do that, they are hiding it away down in Marystown. MR.DAWE: That is not true. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman can get as saucey as he wants and he can try to intimidate as he wants. But let me ask the han. gentleman if he kne;-;, or if anybody in his department knew that operating expenses and subsidies were being paid out while the ferry boat was idle,while it \'las tied up?

Did the minister know that that-- was being done? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR.DAWE: Mr. Speaker, that is not 8976

December 15,1983 Tape No. 4028 ah -2 MR.DAWE: true,as I indicated,and I refer the hon. gentleman back to the responses in the red book which answers the particular question which he just asked. MR.NEARY: Mr .S peaker . MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR .NEARY : The hon. Leader of the Mr.Speaker, the pages that were put in the red book after the department had made its original response do not indicate answers to the questions that I just put to the hon. gentleman .

I want to know if the hon gentleman knew,and if he knew when did he find out 1 that operating subsidies and expenses for the refit of that ferry were being paid out while the ferry was idle? Was the hon . gentle .man aware of that or anybody in his department aware of it? 8977

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4029 MJ- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell} : The han. the Minister of Transporation. MR. DAWE: Mr; Speaker, 42b (iii}, and I will read it fa~ the han. gentleman. 42b (iii} says, "The Auditor General's point here is somewhat :Misleading. The Department subsidized the operations of the old vessel but only the bank loan, insurance, and a watchman's salary for the other vessel." Just in case the han. gentleman could not read it himself. As it relates, Mr.

Speaker, to the han. gentleman's allegation that the responses in the red book are not the originals or that they have been tampered with in some way,I would just like to take the opportunity now if I could to clear up that particular point. The Auditor General sends down to the various departments - MR. NEARY: That is not the question I asked you. PREMIER PECKFORD :

preamble. }~R. SPEAKER: You made an allegation in your Order, please! MR. DAWE: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the members of the Opposition do not want truth, they do not want to be blinded by facts, it confuses their allegation and their innuendo. In reality, Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General submits to the various departments an indication and a copy of his comments that he will make in his annual report and asks at that time for responses from the department. A n~er of.months ago we received from the Auditor General an indication that he would be asking certain questions or making certain statements in his report as it relates to our department 1 and the responses 8978

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4029 MJ - 2 MR. DAWE: were forwarded. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the efficienc y of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins)and his department compiling their departmental responses already had the booklet prepared. The Auditor General subsequently, only '\"Ti thin a matter of the past number o~ days, about two weeks.! would suggest 1 indicated to our department that he would indeed be making a comment as it relates to this particular situation - long after the responses had been compiled by the Department of Finance, long after the booklet had been in the process of being pUblished• Mr.

Speaker, to avoid duplication and going through the whole booklet and renUmbering the pages, the efficiency of the Department of Finance came through again and instead of renumbering the pages they identified the pages as 42a, 42b and 42c. Mr. Speaker, it is a very simple explanation and I do not know why the hon . member would think anything . different. 8979

December 15, 1983 Tape 4030 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Is the hart. minister saying that it was the Auditor General's fault that they had to add additional leaves to the pages of this red book- PREMIER PECKFORD: That is really heavy stuff. MR. NEARY: Yes, I will cover it, do not worry! I want to get to the bottom of this, I will cover it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! Order, please!

Order, please! - that the Auditor General did not give the usual notice to the department so that they could respond as they did respond to all the other items that would be in this annual report, that it was a last minute type of thinq, it was kind of an afterthought on the part of the Auditor General to put it within a few days before he submitted his report to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) for tabling in this House? Is that what the han. gentleman is saying? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I certainly did not indicate that it was the Auditor General's fault.

What I indicated was that the indications from the Auditor General that certain questions would be asked of the department were identified a number of months ago. In this particular case, it was only a very short while ago, in the past couple of weeks or so, that the Auditor General indicated that,in addition to the items that he mentioned previously, he would be identifying this particular issue in his report, and, 8980

December 15, 1983 Tape 4030 EC - 2 MR. DAWE: subsequently, asked for a response . That response, Mr. Speaker, went to the Auditor General , It also went to the Department of Finance, which was compilir.g the departmental responses and had already completed their booklet; the book had already been put through the publishing procedure, so instead of going back anc renumbering all the pages, as I indicated, they just slipped in the other pages numbered -· 42a, 42b and 42c . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER {~ussell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MElSERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR . NEARY: ftr . Speaker, just so there will be no doubt in anybody 's mind, is the hon. gentleman saying that it was only about two weeks ago that the Auditor General raised this matter of the Green Bay ferry fiasco, and so it was only in the last two weeks that the hon. gentleman • s department had an opportunity to react to the Auditor General 's comments on this ferry fiasco, it all happened within the last two ;o~eeks? Can the hon. gentle­ man confirm that that is what he is saying? 89 81

December 15, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Transportation. MR. DAWE: Tape 4031 PK - 1 The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, what I am doing so as not to be accused of somehow misleading the House 1 I am having it checked now to see the exact time when we received the indication from the Auditor Gene~al. And if you want the specific day and when we received it,I will certainly make that available to the hon. member before the House closes. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. That will be fine, Mr. Speaker. Now getting back to the operating subsidies and so forth, the expenses and so forth.

The hon. gentleman obviously knew but he will not tell us,when he found out that the operating subsidies and expenses were being paid out. But we understand, Mr. Speaker, that part of the agreement with this company was that they would sell the Green Bay Transport I and it would be deducted from the amount of money that was guaranteed by government at the bank. Why did the government continue to pay subsidies on a ferry that was supposed to have been sold to offset some of the loan at the bank? Why did they continue to do that?

The agreement was that the government would put up the money to purchase this ferry and that so much would be deducted,$170,000, I think, as a result of the sale of the original ferry. Why was that not done? And why did the minister continue to pay out subsidies and operating expenses on a ferry that should have been sold so that the government could recover some of its money? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. 8982

December 15, 1983 Tape 4031 PK - 2 MR. DAWE: Mr . Speaker, it seems as though I will have to read for the bon. member the passage. If he will look at42b (iv), "The old vessel was ·not sold because it was necessary to maintain the service. While it is conceivable that the new vessel could have continued,it must be understood that restricted capabilities rendered her less suitable than the old vessel at a substantially greater operating cost.

Had the old vessel being sold to a new operator to run the service,the Department would have been required to cover the financial depreciation cost to the new owner through a subsidy arrangement leaving Government in the same net position SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : II 8983 Oh, ph! The hon. Leader of the Opposition.

December J S: ~ J 983 r Tape 40.32 r Page J-""'"" a~b MR. NEARY: Now r M~, Spea_ker r we. n.ow: have. a change. The mi·nister now acknowl_edge.s: t.ha t tl'Lere had to be a_ change tn tiLe agreement a_pd when that c~nge took place tl'ten, oBvi 'ously, the non, gentl.e.ma,n. and the -, .... ·. admini 'stratfun must have known that the ' Green Bay Transport _ J_l. was not suitable fo .r tha, t operation, Now ·; let me come. back to the ques -tion again, _ because the subsj:dies a_nP, opera_ti :nSf expens :es· whlc!t were eno:rrnous r MI7, Sl?eaker ~ were paid out for two ferry · boats.

Now when the hon. gentleman found that out, why did he continue to pay operating expenses and operating subsidies for a ferry that he knew was tied up, that was idle? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, the answers again are in the book. I do not feel that this is particularly a good afternoon for a reading lesson, but I refer the hon. member to the passages, to pages 42a, 42b and 42c. The explanation for all those things is there for the hon. member to read and hopefully to be able to interpret with some intelligence. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, you talk about arrogance and sauce! Now, Mr. Speaker, would the hon. minister be prepared to table the contracts with this company, with th.ese people; to table all matters related to this agreement, correspondence, . a_greements, letters and contracts with this company? Would the hon. gentleman be prepared to lay all these matters on the table of this House? MR. SPE'AKE'R: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr, Speaker~ the Leader of 8984

December 15, 1983, Tape 4032, Page 2 --apb MR. DAWE: the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is obviously trying to develop this into some kind of a political game that he is playing. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, as I indicated yesterday, this particular ~dministration is very proud of the process we are involved in as it relates to the Auditor General and the way the Auditor General's office investigates the expenditure of public funds. In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, there is an avenue, through the Public Accounts Committee which has the opportunity in reviewing the 8985

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4033 NM - 1 MR. DAWE: Auditor General's Report to investigate very thorougly any comments that the Auditor General makes as it relates to any department. And, Mr. Speaker, the last time, as I recall, there were calls for a public enquiry in this particular House of Assembly it was by a former Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee who screamed for a public enquiry as it relates to one Dr. Torn Farrell and a fire incident. I would like to remind the hon. House where Dr. Farrell is at this time and where the person is who made that allegation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, you talk about contempt~ The hon. gentleman is insulting the intelligence of the people of this Province, Mr. Speaker. This House is supreme. We appoint the Public Accounts Committee. We also appoint the Auditor General. I am asking the hon. gentleman if he will table all documents in connection with this matter here in the House of Assembly so that all members will have access to these documents. Why would the hon. gentleman refuse to table these documents? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR.

DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I am certainly not refusing to table the documents. I just indicated to the hon. member that there is a process in place whereby these documents will be made available to the Public Accounts Committee and to the public in general. And I would suggest that the hon. member, and the members of the Opposition, address themselves to that process. 8986

December 15, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Ru ssell ) : the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 4033 NM - 2 The hon. the Leader of The hon . gentleman obvious ly does not understand the system very much. The process in place is this House, and that is where the documents should be tabled, in this House. And let it be recorded the bon. gentleman is refusing to table the documents so that members of this House can have access to these documents, t-1r . Speaker . Now, Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the hon . gentleman how many oth er ferry operators, other than this par ticular operator, did the government auarantee the banks that they would be responsible for total payment of loans and guarantees that were made to purchase ferries to amortize the principal and the interest on these loans? How many other operators in this Province was that kind of a shady deal made with? 8987

December 15,1983 Tape No. 4034 ah-l MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR.DAWE: Mr. Speaker, perhaps a little bit of background information. Had hon. members opposite listened - SOME HON MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.DAWE: It is interesting to note,Mr. Speaker, as well,that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) who screamed, Mr. Speaker, and indicated that perhaps allegations made in this House should not be subject to immunity,refused to make allegations outside the House similar to the ones that he is making today. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR~ ·DAWE: Hear, hear!

Order, please! Mr. Speaker, there is a long history behind the operation of the various ferry vessels and the intraprovincial ferry system in this Province. It has a number of twists,and most of the twists , Mr. Speaker, were the result of negotiations that went on through former provincial administrations, and also through the federal government who operated just about all of the intraprovincial ferry systems. And, Mr.

Speaker, the kind of arrangement that was made with the other ferry operators was certainly not unlike the one which was entered into with th~s particular service in that the federal government guaranteed through contracts,long-term contracts,through government subsidies that the vessels would be paid for, the ·principal and interest would be paid for through the subsidies, refit would be paid for through the subsidies. Mr. Speaker, if a boat needed a new engine,all the B9BB

oec ember 15,1983 Tape No. 4034 ah -2 MR.DAWE : owner had to do was to come in and pick up a new engine and this would be dumped into the subsidy that the taxpayers had to pay . That was the kind of arrangement that we had, ~tr. Speaker, before this 8989

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4035 MJ - 1 MR. DAWE: particular administration took over and reassessed the whole system. Unfortunately we - well 1of course,we should not have done it - but we assumed that perhaps the federal government had been involved in the process so long that they perhaps had worked out a reliable system. Unfortunately it was not,and our studies indicated, Mr.

Speaker, that we should not be involved in the kind of long-term subsidies and guaranteeing an individual that they could operate a vessel and at the end of the process would own the vessel and the taxpayers would be out the price of that vessel over time and also be in a position to have to purchase a new vessel. So it was based on that information that this administration decided that it would, in future, purchase its own vessels, make the capital output right up front,and operate them in one of two ways.

We would either operate them as a government, through the Department of Transporation 1 or we would own them and operate them through a management kind of a system,and that is the process which we are following and will continue to follow, Mr. Speaker.

But the boats that we took over from the federal government, the operations that we took over, were essentially the same kind of an operation, the same kind of an arrangement that was made with the operator of the Green Bav Transport II in that they were long term subsidies.but in the long run the net result was that the taxpayers of this Province, the taxpayers of Canada were in a position whereby they paid off the principal and the interest on that vessel through subsidies, they took care of the insurance through subsidies, they took care of refit through subsidies~and at the end of the process, Mr.

Speaker, the owner would have the vessel and the Province, or the federa .l government in the initial sense 1would be left 8990

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4035 MJ - 2 MR. DAWE: without a vessel and the owner with a fairly tidy profit in his hands. _Mr. Speaker, we did away with that process and are now in the process of changing it completely in our system. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Period has expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: The time for the Q~estion Oh, oh! By leave! By leave! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the Premier on a point Mr. Speaker, would the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) like to ask me a question about the Green Bay ferry system? SOME HON . MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. NEARY: MR. SP EAKER : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If I wanted to ask the han. gentleman a question, I would ask him about the 200,000 Christmas cards that he had printed to send out to householders in this Province that have been put through the government's shredder. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has not got courage. He can say inside this House what he would not say this morning or last night outside this House to try to discredit me and my character. He has 8991

December 15, 1983 Tape 4036 PK - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: not got the intestinal fortitude to go outside to do it but he will get up and try to slur me here. Now I challenge the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to put his money where his mouth is. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Either do it outside of the House - put your money where your mouth is, you creep! Mr. Speaker, or/and , and not or, and have the nerve to ask me a question tomorrow in this House of Assembly dealing with The Green Bay ferry service when he was a member of the Cabinet of Mr: Smallwood. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea:JS, hear! MR.

NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The han. Leader of the Opposition to the point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I guess the only conclusion we can come to is that we have gotten to him. The han. gentleman - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman can threaten us all he wants, but the fact of the matter is that the han. gentleman does not have the courage to have a royal commission of inquiry into this matter.

Set up a royal commission of inquiry if the han. gentleman has nothing to hide,If he is so brave, if he is such a brave soul, such a fighter,let him have a commission of inquiry into this whole matter, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. the Premier. 8992

December 15, 1983 Tape 4036 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: (Inaudible) that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) brought any evidence to show that anything on this ferry system since this government took over was done irregularly, wrong, illegally1let him say it in this House or outside of this House. Why will not the Leader of the Opposition say outside this House what he said yesterday inside this,House? Why will he not, Mr. Speaker? If the Leader of the Opposition has all the answers to this and all of the information,let him do that. Mr.

Speaker,, set up a royal commission or a public inquiry based upon a vague, broad allegation that the Leader of the Opposition would make in this House but_has not the audacity to make outside this House~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: That is the inconsistency. Now I ask the Leader of the Opposition again , Mr. Speaker MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: Do not point your finger at me. -will he ask me a question tomorrow about the Green Bay ferry service and how it was establsihed when he was a member of the Smallwood Cabinet? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! This could go on for some while and the,Chair is not about to sit here and hear a debate between the hon. the Premier and the hon. Leader of the Opposition. The Premier rose on a point of order which was indeed not a valid point of order. 8993

December 15, 1983 Tape 4036 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I wish to raise a point of order myself. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker , the hon. gentleman - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman under the guise of a point of order said that the allegations, the accusation had been made by the Leader of the Opposition. That is not true. ·' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: The charges and allegations were made by the Auditor General of this Province. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: The Auditor General is a servant of this House as I understand it, completely independent, impartial, does not toe any party line, Mr. Speaker, and it was the Auditor General who raised this matter and not the Opposition,Although we raised it previously, we could not get the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) to table the agreement. We asked for these agreements about six months ago. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: I know the Premier is beside himself today, that he is testy, that he is smarting under this alleged scandal, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! 8994

December 15, 1983 Tape 4036 PK - 4 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. NEARY: and he is trying to weasel his way out of it. But I say to the bon. gentleman that,if he wants .to clear his name - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.NEARY: - and remove the dark cloud, let him appoint a commission of inquiry and examine this whole matter. A commission that can send for witnesses, send for docurnents 1 take testimony under oath, Mr. Speaker,is that not the fair and sensible way to do it? PREMIER PE CKFORD: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: point of order.

PREMIER PEC KFORD : To that point of order, The .hon. Premier to that To that point of order , the hen. Leader of the Opposition says there is a cloud over my head or over my character. I have to tell the Leader of the Opposition if he is making that kind of a statement then obviously he believes that there is some irregular or unusual about this Green Bay ferry system. Now I say to the Leader of the Opposition,if he believes that,then let him say outside of this House what he said inside. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Let him say it. Let him go ahead and say it. The Han.

Leader of the Opposition will not say it because he knows he has no evidence. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is number one. Number two, I challenge the Leader of the Opposition tomorrow 1 as I said a few minutes ago 1 to let 8995

December 15, 1983 Tape 4037 EC .,.. 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: us get into the Green Bay ferry system. Let us get in to see how it got established in 197l,just before the election when one of his colleagues was about to run in Green Bay, and how that ferry system got started from funds from the Fisheries Loan Board. Let us get at this! Let us get at this! S011E HON. ~1EMBERS : Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! The Chair recognized the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) on a point of order, which was indeed an attempt to carry on a speech and certainly was not a valid point of order. 0 0 0 MR. 'NARREN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise on a point of personal privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, in a letter in today's Daily News, has issued agains~ my personal character a serious charge. The letter was written and signed by the Regional Manager of Communications for the CBC, Mr. John O'Mara. In the letter, ~~. O'Mara has written the following: "Dear Mr.

Warren: In debate in the House of Assembly November 24 as reported in The Daily News of November 25, you are quoted as saying it was '~isgraceful that people who work for the Federal Government and its agencies and the CBC are not paying school taxes'. This is not an accurate statement and 8996

Decemb er 15, 1983 Tape 4037 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: has done a grave injustice to our staff." Mr. Speaker, I spent part of this morning in Mr . O'Mara 's office explaining to him hO\v in fact it is he who has acted in such a way as to create an in justice against my person and character and that in fact his letter is inaccurate . The very first thing I pointed out to Mr. O'Mara was that, as the Public Relations Officer for the CBC in t:1is Province, his lack of professionalism in this matter bothered me greatly.

As a professional public relations agent, one would have thought that he would go through an intense period of checking for detail and accuracy before he issued his charge against me . Mr . Speaker , I pointed out to Mr . O'Mara that first of all, he did not call .me personally to dis cus s my alleged conunent with me; secondly, Mr. Speaker, he did not tvrite me for clarification; thirdly, he did not ask for a copy of Han sar d, which is available to anyone who would ask for it; fourth ly, l1r.

Speaker, he did not bother to get the facts from the three or four CBC reporters who cover this House daily ; and fifthly, 8997

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4038 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, he did not even bother to call the news reporter who wrote the story for The Daily News to ask for details or clarification or enlargement on my comments. Now, Mr. Speaker, keep in mind this is the CBC we are talking about, and the man in question is a public relations officer for the CBC. So what did Mr. O'Mara do? What did he do? He based his letter of attack on me entirelv upon ~he Daily News report and that alone. That coverage was also badly lacking in quality, Mr. Speaker. The coverage was provided under the by-line .of Mr. W.R.

Callahan, and I have to admit here and now that he also misquoted me and left out a very important part of the story. His story 1 first of all 1 never, ever, ever mentions~ most critical, important aspect- and I repeat what I am saying here although the member is in the House - of !~s. Verge • s comment on this matter as it relates to the CBC. But Mr. Callahan did see fit to put it in a misquote from me. He ~eported as follows on November 25, "Garfield Warren sain it ~ .. ;as disrrraceful that the people who work for the federal government and its agencies and the CBC are not paying school taxes." Now, Mr.

Speaker, here is the exact words I said as quoted from Hansard. I have a copy of Hansard here, Mr. Speaker. The exact words that I said, "Mr. Speaker, I think it is a disgrace if we have the School Tax Authority in this Province, which I do not believe we should have, and there are people working with the federal government, or the CBC, or Crown corporations who do not pay the school tax." That is what I said, Mr. Speaker. The most important word in that sentence is the word "if" 8998

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4038 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: which Mr. Callahan left out of the statement. The other sentences he left _out of his reporting are those of the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge}. Her words carne before mine in the debate and in Hansard,and are in fact the source of the allegation that the CBC is getting away with breachinq th~ school tax legislation and failing to pay their school taxes~ which incidentally, Mr. Speaker, the CBC, through Mr. O'Mara, denies. Mr. Callahan left the following statement by the Minister of Education out of his story altogether. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would like for you to keep in mind those words were uttered before I made any comments concerning the CBC. Hansard quotes the Education Minister that day as saying the following in response to my question. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I rise as a matter of privilege to the House 1which has precedence over personal privilege. MR. SPEAKER .(Russell): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I have not interrupted the hon. gentleman because he has a right obviously to make a point of privilege 1 but I wish to quote to Your Honour, Beauchesne, page 117, "When a complaint is made of a newspaper, it is the practice in the House of Commons for the !1ernber to rise on a question of privilege and to point out that he has been ~lled or misrepresented. He may read as much of the

article as it necessary to prove his case but he cannot go further. He is bound to confine himself strictly to the question of privilege." 8999

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4038 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speakar, I do not want t<> constrict the hon. gentleman if he wishes to raise a point of privilege. I do not believe it is a valid one anyone. It is just a matter of personal explanation of 9000

December 15, 1983 1 Tape 4039, Page 1 -- apb MR. HA .R.SHJ\.LL: his position and his a.tti.tude toward an article, and it certainly is not a real, grounded question of privilege in the true -sense. But the the reason I am getting up, Mr , Speaker, is that questions of orivilege of this nature are, as the authority says here, to be confined strictly to the ques-tion of privilege. You are to ground, first of all, the grounds for the privilege and not get into the substance.

Now, the hon. gentleman is really getting quite i'nto the subs-tance and the reason I get up is because r think th_e hon 1 gentleman has made whatever point he was maki·ng 1 which I do not believe 1 as I say, was a question of privil,ege,it was just a matter of explanation, and r do not believe he should take as much time of the H.ous -e in doing it as ne has been taking. ' MR. SPEAKER(}l.ussellL: Port au Port, MR. HODDER: The han. the member for Mr, Speaker, I have never hea _rd any such rule as ·a privilege of the House. The member for Torngat MountatnslMr. warrenl was standing on a point of privi -lege.

When he is standing on a point of privilege,. only the Speaker can tell him that he must sit down._ Mr, Speaker 1 as well 1 the member for Tornga t Mountains had not got _ten into th _e meat of hi-s allegati ·ons and I think that the HOuse Leader opposi -te (Mr. Marshall)_ was totally out of order and that he is now writing his own rules to govern the Hous-e of A.ssembly, MR. . SPEAKER: the Council. The hon. the President of MR '.

MARSRALL: The hon. gentleman should read th _e book. _ There is obviously personal privilege and there is privilege of the House, There ~s personal privilege, personal to a member, and there is the privilege of all memb -ers collectively i'n the Rouse ., and th _e House itself, 9001

December 15, 1983 -Tape 4039 1 Page 2 -~ a~b MR._ MARSHALL: I mean 1 this is accepted in parliamentary· procedure, and the latter precedes . the former •. MR. NEARY: That is the Marshall rule, MR. SPEAKER (_Russell. I..: Order, plea.se ~ The ho.n. the member far Port au Port, MR. HODDER: Mr, Speaker, there is no such rule as Mr. Speaker knows. Ann T should not have to get up to explain ~t,. except that I cannot imagine that the Rouse Lea·der opposite CMr. Marshall)_,. \'lho ha.s been in t.h.e House for about three times· as long as I have 1' would come up with. s:oll).ething as · ridiculous · a.s this, ,. '.

SOME HON. MEMBERS ; " -MR\ SPEAKER: -MR .-. HODDER: Oh. 1 oh~ · Order 1 please~ Order 1 please~ Mr, Speaker 1 a point of privilege is a point which. governs a member's ability to serve in . th.e Rouse, There ;ts no such. thing a.s anoth .er new point of privilege, He should not have stood in hi 's place. MR. NEA.RY; Now he cannot find the rule, MR. Sl'EA.KER: The hon, the President of th.e Council, MR, MARSHALL: Now, .Mr, S)?eak.e.r 1 I. mean 1 the h.on, gentl.eman is the longest parliamentarian in Newfoundland with the shortest future. I see it. ~r.

Speaker, even through my bifocals, page 13 No.21, in great, big capital letters. The hon. gentleman can perha~s- see it from here: 'PRIVILEGES OF THE HOUSE'. ~!..'=!.. DN·IE: H-o-u-s-e. MR. MARSHALL: Nm'l 1. why, Mr. Speaker, is it privileges of the House if there is· no such thing? The hon. gentleman should get up, Mr, Speaker, ~pologize to Your Honour, apologize to me, and his party should get up because they have uncharacteristically maligned 1 of all people, Mr. Callahan. 9002

December lSf ~g£3, Tape 4Q39, Page 3 -- apb SOME HON', MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ' MR. . SPEAKER CRu s sell)_: The bon . the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: ~~ . Speaker, may I make a fina.l submtssion? Mr. Speaker, t~1e first

chapter in Beauchesne .i:s 'privileges' ..,.

Definitions, Claims against the House of Commons, Privileges of the House. ~t is in b±g ~lack letterse Mr, Speaker, but it does not refer to a new set of pri'vi::leges. I would like Mr. Speaker, when he rules,to tell th.e House Leader(..'1r. Marshall) what Beauchesne says . 'MR, SPE.'IU<ER: Order, please ! 9003

December 15,1983 Tape No. 4040 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): That point raised by the hon. President of the Council (Mr.Marshall) appears to be a little different than the ordinary. The hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.Warren) did rise on a point of personal privilege. He is to confine himself to the substance of the privilege and he did appear to be straying somewhat from that, but I am prepared ·to hear him out for a few more minutes. MR.WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, In fact,I am pretty well finished. As I was saying, Mr.

Speaker, on the 24th of November the question that I asked the Minister of Education (Ms Verge), and I will repeat,' Do federal government employees pay school tax?' ~~~t was -the question I asked the Minister of Education and the minister's response, Mr. Speaker, is very important in this point of privilege,and this is what the minister said.

The minister said, I have it underlined here and it is in Hansard,'Effectively lots of federal government employees,and even some CBC employees,are getting away with breaching the school tax legislation and failing to pay their school taxes.' It was the Minister of Education who said that, not me. !JIR_.HOUSE: Which is right. MR.WARREN: I do not care if it is true or not,but the Minister of Education said that and it is reported in Hansard. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.WARREN: So you see, Mr.

Speaker, according to Hansard it was the Minister of Education who made the charges here in the House attacking the CBC and not I. My statement came in the wake of this 9004

December 15,1983 Tape No. 4040 ah-.2 MR.WARREN: categorical statement by the minister who is 1 by the way,I presurne 1the authority on school taxes in this House. Her statement was that the CBC breaks the school tax legislation in failing to pay school taxes. So naturally, Mr. Speaker, my reaction then,based on this, was this morning to go to visit Mr. John O'Mara at the CBC office . I must say at the beginning, Mr. Speaker, that Mr.

O'Mara was man enough to personally apologize to me in his office and if he does what he said he is going to do , and I hope he will do, I will take his advice and I will accept his apology if it appears throughout the media tomorrow. And if that appears throughout the media tomorrow 1 I will accept his apology. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have also spoken to Mr. Callahan of the Daily News and he has also advised me that if he has incorrectly reported me 1 which he _has done,that he will be making a retraction also. And , Mr.

Speaker, I will accept that once I see in the print media tomorrow. SOME HOM.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.WARREN: · In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say although it might not be in your power, Sir,that if the press in this Province is going to make accu~ations against any of the fifty-two members in this House,I would suggest, Sir, that the first thing the press should be advised, if they are going to make statements in the electronic or print media, Mr.Speaker, is to get their facts 9005

December 15,1983 Tape No. 4040 ah-3 MR.WARREN: to be made, If there is an accusation , let them print the right p~rson Nho they are going to make the accusation about. If the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) made this statement 1 let them print it was the M.inister of Education, not the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) . Thank you, 'Mr. Speaker. SOME BON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please!

To that point of privilege raised by the hon . member for Torngat Mountains,t .he Chair is of the opinion that be rose on a point of personal privilege to clarify matters that did appear in the paper and explain what had happened since that time,but had not,in the Chair's opinion,establish a prima facie case for a point of privilege . MR . NEARY : Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition . 900 6

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4041 MJ- l MR. NEARY: I would like to raise a point of order,and I do not want to embarrass the Chai~ 1 but, Mr. Speaker, during the time my hon. colleague was making a presentation on a point of personal privilege,which supersedes everything else in the House, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) rudely interrupted my hon. colleague and was allowed to plough on with another point of privilege. Now, Mr. Speaker, that,to our way of thinking, is wrong. I suppose what I am asking is some guidance from the Chair on that matter.

From now on,will a member be permitted, when somebody is making a point of privilege, will a member be permitted to get up and make another point of privilege and interrupt the hon. gentleman who is making the original point of privilege?~Because this is something new, Mr. Speaker, and,if we allow that precedent to stand on the record,then we will have chaos in this House. You know, nobody will be able to make a point of privilege anymore without somebody there opposite getting up and rudely interrupting that member. So I would like to have some guidance from the Chair.

I am not asking a question of Your Honour 1 but certainly I believe the House should have some guidance from Your Honour on whether or not we are going to tolerate that kind of behaviour in this House in the future. PREMIER PECKFORD: order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : point of order. Mr. Speaker, to that point of The hon. the Premier,to that PREMIER PECKFORD: The House Leader for this side got up a few minutes ago. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has been in the Fouse longer than I have,but obviously he has not learned the rules.

The privileges of the House supercede the privileges of an individual member,and it was on that 9007

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4041 MJ - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: grounds that the House Leader (Mr. Marshall) got up. MR. NEARY: Where does it say that? PREMIER PECKFORD: It is on Page 13 of Beauchesne. MR. NEARY: Read it. Read it out for us. PREMIER PECKFORD: Number 21, " The .most fundamental privilege of the House as a whole is to establish rules and procedures for itself and to enforce them." That is the fundamental, the privilege of the House. MR. NEARY: That is it, a point of privilege. PREMIER PECKFORD: The House privileges come over the individual privileges. MR. NEARY: That is right.

A point of privilege supercedes everything else, that is what I said. You cannot have two points of privileges. MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The bon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: The privileges of the House is exactly what was going on here. A point of privilege is a privilege of the House. If something that allows a member of the House not to be able to carry out his functions in the House, that is a matter of privilege, it is a breach of privilege, and the bon. member felt that his privileges have been breached and he rose on a point of privilege.

That is a privilege of the House, of any member of the House. I mean, the Premier surprises me as well as the House Leader opposite. MR. SPEAKER: To that point raised by the bon. the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary), the Chair shall take it under advisement and rule on it later. 9008

December 15, 1983 MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape No. 4041 MJ - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY Order 23, Bill No~ 32. Order 23, Bill No. 32. The han. the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) adjourned the debate, and if he speaks now he closes the debate. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: First, Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to some of the comments from the hen. the member for Torngat·Mountains (Mr. Warren). Mr.

Speaker, he was talking at some length - unfortunately he probably did not know what he was talking about - about Davis Inlet and buildings and so forth. This applies to the Public Tendering Act and any contracts that are let without tender, Mr. Speaker, is provided for in the act and it is reported to the Auditor General. I may say, Mr. Speaker, that I am very proud this year that the Auditor General never even mentioned the Department of Public Works and Services in his report. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, this act applies to goods and services and last year there was something over $10~ million spent by the Director of Purchasing. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) dwelt at some length on Clause 8. Now, Mr. Speaker, what government was trying to do, which they did, Mr. Speaker, is adopted everything that the Mahoney report recommended. The Mahoney report recommended that the sum of $1,000 9009

December 14, 1983 Tape No . 4041 MJ - 4 MR. YOUNG : should be increased. Mr. Speaker, when we adopted the Mahoney report, if we had adopted the btifflin report the hen. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) ~o~ould probabl y now be down in Panama with his buddy because he would not have been allowed in Ne~.,foundland. Now, Sir, due to inflation ~>~hat we will do now is that the Cabinet will from time to time set a limit on the amounts of money for going without public tender . Now, Sir, be. fore I close and move second reading,we probably should amend this act a little further to say th.at we will allow the Leader of the Opposition to go on public tender and,I am sure,Mr. Speaker, 9010

December 15, 1983 Tape 4042 EC - 1 MR. YOUNG: that that office or that rnanber ~uld receive a lot lower than the $65,000 he is now receiving. MR.NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I rrove second reading. (Inaudible) low, dirty, rotten (inaudible) I hope the press will re?ort (inaudible) On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Public Works And Services Act, 1973," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 32) MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER {Aylward) : On a point of order, the han. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, I just heard the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) say that my remarks were low, degraded and so forth. Well, I would like, Sir, for him to go back to Hansard and see what he said about me on Tuesday evening. Mr. Speaker, I am honest enough and sincere enough in this hon. House and I do not want to take any dirt from the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the o,pposi tion, to that point of order. MR. NEARY: I only wish - MR. YOUNG: (Inaudible) members. You were a crook then and you are a crook now. MR.

NEARY: Yes, and the han. gentleman used to come over to Be~l Island scrounging. The han. gentleman used to scrounge and beg off us when he used to come to Bell Island. He was a scrounger, a freeloader. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~~. SPEAKER: Order, please! 9011

December 15, 1983 Tape 4042 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, that is not a point of order. It is too bad that the Government House Leader '(Mr. Marshall) was not in his place, because I think the hon. gentleman knows better. Mr. Speaker, it just gave the hon. gentleman a chance to squirt some more bile across this House. The hon. gentleman has been a freeloader all his life, Mr. Speaker, he knows that. But, Mr.- Speaker, there is no point of order. Perhaps the Government House Leader could teach ministers, especially ministersithe rules of the House. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please!

To that point of order, I rule that there is a definite difference of opinion between two hon. members. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The hon. the President of the Council, on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman, when he was addressing the point of order raised by the Minister of Public Works (Mr.

Young), referred to the hon. gentleman in insulting terms, you know, called him a freeloader and various other types of epithets that comeso easy to the lips of the hon. gentleman and contribute so much to the lack of decorum in this Rouse, and that is the reason why the House gets in the condition it is in from time to time. Now, I call upon the hon. gentleman to retract that remark and if he does not, Mr. Speaker, I raise it as a point of order and ask Your Honour to consider asking him to withdraw it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, to that point of order. 9012

December 15, 1983 Tape 4042 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I said nothing unparliamentary in this House. My remarks were within the rules of the House and,if hon. gentlemen will recall, I stated a few moments ago that it should be a matter of record in this House who goes on the personal attack, who the character assassins are on that side of the House. And the hon. the Government House Leader (~x. Marshall), if he had been in his place, would have heard what the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) said before he took his seat. Mr. Speaker, that was low and rotten and I make no apology for using these remarks.

It was character assassination of the lowest kind. And if the hon. gentle­ man wants to improve the decorum of the House,then he should warn his ministers not to make such irresponsible statements. Mr. Speaker, we intend to give them as good as they send, so if they cannot take it, I would say, if they cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. MR. YOUNG: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Ayl\\'ard): To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Px. Speaker, I cannot understand the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (~tr. Neary) calling me a freeloader.

I can remember, Mr. Speaker, when that man did not have enough money to buy a Coke over at Eddy's Snack Bar. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: And if he wants to know, I got my dollar, Mr. Speaker, made my own money, and the hon. gentleman is jealous of it, that is all I can say. God forbid that ~e ever gets into a position. He was never able, Mr. Speaker, to run a business, not in his life. He does not know how. 9013

December 15, 1983 Tape 4042 EC - 4 MR. SPEAKER (Avlward): Order, ~leae ! To that point of order, I wish to remind all hen. members that it is not acceptable that any member of this Rouse of Assembly use points of order to personally Lnsult each other or attack each other . To the point of order raised by the hen . the President of the Council (Mr . Marshall), I will check Hansard and see if there were unparliamentary terms used and I will make a ruling at a later date. MR. HODDER : On a point of order, Mr . Speaker. 9014

December lSf 19.83 1 Ta,pe 4043 1 Page J -- apb MR. _ SPEAKERlAylwardl: the member for Port au Port. ~1R. HODDER: A point of order, the hon. Hr, Speaker 1 I wa .s sitting here \.vhile the exchange was going on and it \<Tas quite clearly heard on this si·de of the Rouse that the hon. the member for Ha _rbour Grace (J1r, Youngl 1 ~'lho is so rarely h:eard from, call.ed the Leader of the Opposition -a crook. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I refer you to page 105 in Beauchesne: 'Since 1958 it has been ruled unparl:i.<"m .~ntary to use the following expressions : 1 and on page 106 ''crook • is stated there, I am sure, Mr, Speaker, that when you check Hansard his comment was loudenough that it was heard very clearly ·on this side of the House. I think the hon .. member for Harbour Grace must withdraw that comment. Because, Mr. Speaker, that was the comment that led to the exchange afterwards. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I just ruled that I would check Hansa.rd and if any unparliamentary words were used I will ask han. members to withdraw them, I will . rule on it at a later time, ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Municipal Grants Act", CBill No .. 521, MR. SPEAKER: Municipal Affa.irs, MRS-. NEWHOOK: The hon, the Min .ister of Mr. Speaker, bill No. 52 contains six amendments to the Municipal Grants Act clarifying those clauses where concern has been expressed regarding

interpretation and also including further provisions for cost sharing of the fire protection provided by the St. John's Fire Depart~ent, Our department 1 Mr, Speaker, has been carrying out the intent of the act, Thes .e a,mendments: 9015

December 1.5.f, 1983 f Tape 40.43 1 Page 2. ,- apb MRS . NE1-\1H:OOK: w±ll. g~ve a better understandin.g of t_h.e actf and this ~nde;r;-sta,p,di.ng has been recommended by- the Auditor General, Now 1 Hr, Speaker, Clause 1 clarifies- tile te.rm ''·fina.ncial. year \• Clause 2 strikes out the reference to ~per capita~ as applicable to tile social ass-istance and road m:;i:leage components oJ; the general. assistance munici-pal grants i Clause 3 clari·fies the ''tax .incentive grant'' in that it. applies to municipal:i:.:ties Wfli·ch: i'mpose tile l7eal property tax;. O:t: a real p:rmperty tax­ plus· a water and sewer tax·,and .i:ncludes: grants i'n l,ie.u of tfies·e. taxes; Clause 4 amends

Section 5 of the oriqinal act, it deletes· reference to 1'recovery of cost of pol.ice services 1• as these are. provided without charge to all. - m~ni:cipal,i.ties - i.n. our :E:'rovin,ce; and it also provides tllat. the cost of fire p:~;otection prov.i:ded :Oy the s·t, John Is FiFe Department shall :Oe recovered :!;rom the municipalitie.s. receivi.ng these services by deduction f;t;om their tax-incentive grant 1 and where th.ere is no tax· incentive grant, or thi~ grant is insufficient,. that tllese costs or Ute balance. of the.se costs shall oe applied . against the general, municipaL assistance gran.t; Clause 5, Mr, Speaker r I?rovi.des for the acceptance of an estimation of tax yi'el.d in the fi.rst. :y-ea:r; of the imposi·tion of the ·ueal. property tax- for the purpose of pay·ing th:e tax incentive grant, out that an adjus·tment shall, be made i·n th:e grant when the actual. t.ax yield, t-s. veri'-fied by an audited financi:al statement; and Clause 6 1 Mr, Speaker 1 deals with the interim subsidy grant provided in 1980., and also a phas--ing out of this subsidy· grant s-o that t.he interim subsidy will terminate as of December 31, 19.84, These amendments 1 Mr.

Speaker, as now written give a clearer

interpretation or understanding of tfi:e act and are de.emed to retroacti-ve to April of 19.8 0, r move second reading, Mr. Speaker, 9016

December 15 1 ~983 1 Tape 4043! P~ge 3 ~- apb HR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER{}.ylwa.rd l; Opposi_tion, !1r . Speal<:er ) The hon,the Leader of the MR. NEARY~ Mr, Speaker 1 we are not going to delay t.he passage of this. bill. It is a heavy piece. of legisla.t±on, Ml:, Speake.r 1 al th.ough the hon . minister sort of drsm~ssed tt as more or less of a house­ keeping natur:e .

Clause 3 seems to bother us a bi_t, tT!ti :s a,.-nendment will clarify that grants in lieu of taxes which. form one. of the basis on wbi .ch . the tax ince.nti ve grant is ca~culated are grants-in -lieu of all of the taxes. that a municipality may impose pursuant to its authority under the .Munic:i:oali:ties Act 'lnd not just grants-in-lieu of real property tax and the wa tar and sewerage tax,' It. seems to me th.a, t \..rha t t.be minister is doing nere r l-1r. Speaker, is protecting big business, If that is not 9017

December 15, 1983 Tape no. 4044 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: so 1then perhaps the minister will clarify this particular clause when the minister closes second reading debate. But my

interpretation of this clause is that where a company, for instance like Price (Nfld.) or Iron Ore Company of Canada, wh~n they make grants in lieu of taxes to a municipality,then what this clause will do will bar the municipality from imposing any other form of tax on that company. Is that the right

interpretation? MRS. NEWHOOK: ~fuat we are saying is that grants in lieu be included in the revenue of the municipality so that the incentive grant can apply to the grants in lieu of taxes. MR. NEARY: I see. Okay. I got what the minister is saying now. Previously, with grants in lieu of taxes they could not get their per capita grants, that municipality could not make a clain arrainst the public treasury for their incentive grants. MRS. NEWHOOK: No, it did not actually happen but the Auditor General wanted it clarified in the act. MR.

NEARY: Is this right what I am saying now,that before a grant in lieu of taxes,say from Bowaters to the City of Corner Brook,or Price to the Town of Grand Falls,or the Iron Ore Company to the Town of Labrador City, they could not claim a per capita grant on these grants that they got from these companies? MRS. NEWHOOK: Oh, yes, they could since 1980. MR. NEARY: going to change it? MRS. NEWHOOK: it just clarifies the wording. 9018 Wel~ how is this It does not change it,

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4044 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: I see. But it does not bar the municipality from imposing a water tax or some other tax on that company. MRS. NEWHOOK: No. MR. NEARY: Okay. That is fine. I am glad to hear that, Mr. Speaker. Let me a.sk the minister about the situation now in Labrador City where the municipality is taking an action against Iron Ore Company of Canada for additional taxes, substantial amounts of taxes that they claim they are owed by the Iron Ore Company of Canada. Could the han. gentleman tell us the story behind that and give us - MR. TULK: The han. lady. MR.

NEARY: - the han. lady rather. I will be accused again by the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) for discriminating,! suppose. MR. TULK: The han. person, MR. NEARY: The han. lady. MR. TULK: The hon. person. MR. NEARY: The han. person, the han. minister. How is that? The han. minister. Mr _. Speaker, I would like to get an up-date on the Labrador City situation.

I am sure the minister can give ~s that information right off the top of her head because she seems to be very alert and on top of what is going on in the Province, which is a lot more than can be said about the minister in front of her, the Minister of Education, who seems to be in an ivory tower, did not even know that there were problems with student- aid. But not the Minister of Mu~icipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook). 9019

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4044 MR. NEARY: I will tell you one thing I admire and appreciate about the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and I saw that happen last week, that the minister is the only minister over 9020 NM - 3

December 15,1983 Tape No. 4045 ah-1 MR.NEARY: there who will give you a straight and honest answer. The rest of them like to play their little cute political games, as we saw again today with the Minister of Transportation (~. Dawe). And that will do them no good,because all they are doing is creating suspicion and doubt in the taxpayers' minds, that is all they do when they stonewall that way,and it gives us an opportunit y to keep pressing on. MR.DAWE: Why do you not read this? MR.NEARY: The hon. gentleman can wave all the documents he wants, Mr. Speaker.

I was never Minister of Fisheries or never Minister of Transportation in this Province,and neither was I a member of the~Moores'administration,which was the most corrupt administration in Newfoundland's history. The hon. gentlemen want to put distance between themselves and theMoores' administration for all the wrongdoing that took place. If the hon. gentleman wants to hold me responsible for the flood . , the tidal wave and the riot that took place , well , Mr. Speaker, if he wants to 'do that so be it. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. MARSHALL: order. MR. SPEAKER: hon. President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Order, please! Mr. Speaker, a point of A point of order. The The hon. gentleman is not being relevant. I mean,this is the Municipal Grants Act. MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order I do wish to remind the hon. Leader of 9021

December 15,1983 Tape No. 4045 ah-2 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : the Opposition (Mr.Neary) that we are discussing the Municipal Grants Act. MR.NEARY: I just wanted to warn them that it will do them no good, Mr. Speaker, that kind of tactic, that kind of strategy will do them no good. They have to answer for their actions whether they like it or not. Mr. Speaker, I wanted to pay a compliment to the minister. I mean this sincerely. It do~s not seem to make any difference how much embarrassment it causes the adrninistration,this minister will give us straight and honest answers. And you know, Mr.

Speaker, that is the way it should be. MR. BUTT: A good minister. MR.NEARY: A good minister as far as that aspect of her responsibilities are concerned. I cannot speak about the other parts of the operation of that department. I do not know if the minister has any authority in Cabinet or not, carries any weight with her colleagues or not. You know, I have very grave doubts about that,because the minister is probably to sensible and to sensitive about the needs of the people.S? I doubt very much if that minister would carry very much weight in Cabinet or have very much authority.

I think the minister would be sort of brushed aside by the more ·potent , powerful, the bully boys. I think that minister would be just shoved aside by the bully boys on the other side. MR.TULK: She was told last year that she coul~ not approve any plans for water and sewer projects in Liberal districts. MR. NEARY: The minister was told last year that she could not approve any water and sewerage projects for Liberal districts. I did not know that.Well, if that is so, Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to hear that the 9022

December 15,1983 Ta pe No. 4045 ah-3 MR.NEARY: minister was overruled by the bullies in the Cabinet,because that certainly is 'not the nature of the minister. I think the minister wants to be fair, wants to do the rl.ght thing a.nd I believe the minister is supersensitive when it comes to the needs ofi.the people of this Provinee. I feel sorry for the han. minister in the Gander situation. The han. minister is walking the tightrope on that one, riding the razor's edge,so to speak,and again is being bullied by her colleagues,the inner Cabinet.

So I hope we will get an honest and fair statement, updating on what is happening in Labrador. AlsO ·, Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet I have to say that in recent times, especially in the last several months, and what happened in Arnold's Cove again the other day brought it to mind- what is happening in this Province to municipalities that so many mayors and councillors are resigning? What is the reason behind it? 9023

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4046 MJ - l MR. NEARY: I think it is time to have a quorum call, Mr. Speaker. They are all out in a huddle. I think we will have a quorum call, what do you say? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Call in the members. QUORUM CALL MR. SPEAXER: The three minutes have passed and there is a quorum present. The hon.Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, in concluding second reading of this bill perhaps the minister can tell the House what is happening in the Province there are so many mayors and town councillors resigning. ~ve have seen it happen twice, I believe,in Arnold's Cove- in how many months? In the last year,anyway,two councils have 'resigned in Arnold's Cove • And in Winterton we had a council resign. It seems to be happening all over the Province. And, Mr. Speaker, they are having difficulties getting people to run for town councils. MR. MORGAN: Not in Bonavista. · MR.

NEARY: The minister has had to exercise her authority under the act on a number of occasions in the past twelve months to appoint members of council because not enough councillors, not enough residents in a given municioality run for office to get a slate. HR.TULK: MR. NEARY: ~ffi.TULK: flak from the government. MR. NEARY: You know why? No. Why? They are refusing to take the My colleague probably put his finger on the real problem, Mr. Speaker. The real problem, of course,is that this administration have forced town councils 9024

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4046 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: to up their taxes, they have forced the town councils to impose a property tax, the y have MR.TULK: And increase it every year. MR. NEARY: - and increase it every year. They have forced the town councils to do that.While this administration say that they are not bringing 'in increases in taxes, they force the town councils to do it and the town councils have to take the flak. The administration will not take the flak, Mr.

Speaker, they try to brush it off on the volunteers, on the dedicated people out there who are trying to do a job for their municipalities, for their towns. They expose the mayors and councillors to all kinds of harassment and blame for things that they should not be blamed for. MR. · TULK: Thev did it with the St. John's Municipal Council four or five years ago. MR. NEARY: That is right. lind I think that is morally wrong. You know, I am not blaming the mini'ster for it, I think the minister is just as innocent victim of all of this.

The hon. minister has to enforce the rules and the regulations and the laws that are made by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, by the Cabinet,and the poor old minister then has to suffer. But I believe that the imposition of the property tax; Mr. Speaker, is the thing that has triggered an awful lot of mayors and town councillors to think twice about whether or not they want to serve on municipalities and town councils throughout this Province. And I believe the minister owes the House 9025

December 15, 1983 Tape 4047 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: an explanation as to why so many mayors and town councillors have had to resign in recent times,especially in th~ last twelve months. Mr. Speaker, I think it is tragic when the administration have to go looking for people to serve on town councils. I think that is tragic,that the people cannot have the opportunity to elect their representatives by ?ecret ballot.

They are denied the opportunity to allow democracy to work because not enough people come forward because of the government's policy, the government's philosophy, the government's ideology, the government's shifting the blame for thinqs that they are responsible for themselves off onto the municipalities. It is shameful, Mr. Speaker. They are trying to make tax collectors out of the mayors and town councillors. They are trying to make the mayors and the councillors do things that they do not have the courage to do themselves. They do not have the coura~e to do it.

And we saw an example of that the other day when they sent a bill to the city of St. John's, one of amendments in this act, Mr. Speaker,dealing with this very matter,'to clarify for the provision of fire protection and police protectiow. They sent a bill to the city of St. John's, right out of a clear blue sky, that they had no idea they owed and as a result of that now the City Council will have to scrounge andscrape ,and cut back. And who will get the blame, Mr. Speaker~ will it be the ministerand the administration there opposite?

Who will get the blame for the curtailment in services , and the increases in the water and sewer tax? It is only because of the good management of the mayor and the councillors in the city of St. John's that the property tax will not increase this year. only because of good management. I only wish that we had some of the members of the St~ John's City Council here in this House looking after the finances of 9026

.•.. - December 15, 1983 Tape 4047 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: this Province , Mr. Speaker. Here you have the largest city, the capital city not increasing the property tax because of good management. This administration could certainly take an example from what is happening in City Hall, and they should certainly be very concerned about what they are doing to the morale of mayors and town councillors throughout this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not saying that in defence of the city of St. John's getting free fire protection or free police protection.

Han. members are aware that over the years,and this is one of the things, I suppose, that came with Confederation , St. John's had its own police force, had its own fire department, and it was paid for out of the Public Treasury, a privilege that did not apply to any other municipality in Newfoundland. And I had the opportunity and the honour on two occasions to be President of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities, that was one of the feathers in my cap. MR. TULK: In your crown. MR. NEARY: In my crown. MR. WARREN: One of the many feathers. MR.

NEARY: One of the many as a person in public life in this Province. Twice I served as President of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities , and you were only allowed to serve two terms, by the way, two terms and then you had to move aside and let somebody else come in. So I am a Past President of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities. And, L think, I can claim a great deal of credit for putting the Federation on a firmfinancial foundation. When I stepped aside and my successor took over,he had a nice little nest egg, Mr. Speaker, with which to carry on. MR. CARTER: Who was your successor? 9027

December 15, 1983 Tape 4047 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: God I forget · who it was it is so long ago. I was President of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities before I becamse a member of this Bouse . AN HON. MEMBER: J. R. Tucker. MR. NEARY: J. R. Tucker? Is that who it was? MR. WARREN: Walter Carter? MR. NEARY: or Walter Carter? I am not sure which. But any way, whoever it was when they took over they had a nice little nest egg, Mr. Speaker, and they never had to look back. I believe I was the second President of the - !1..~S • NEWHOOK: MR. NEARY : Mt~S • NEWHOOK : MR . NEARY: . No. No? I did not see your picture.

The hon. : minister: never saw my picture because ·I am a very humble fellow, a very shy individual who is not looking for - l4R. YOUNG: He was not electec. 9028

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4048 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, I was elected twice, that is more than I can say for the han : gentleman. I was elected twice, once I defeated the Mayor of Corner Brook,by the way,for that position. And it was a pretty fierce battle, pretty fierce indeed, Mr. Speaker, and I won out. I won once in Bay Roberts and I believe I won once in - I do not remember, I believe it was on the West Coast somewhere. But the last time I won it was in Bay Roberts. MR. MORGAN: Were you the mayor? MR. NEARY: No, I was not mayor. I was a member of a council on Bell Island. I was not mayor.

I was never mayor. I was deputy mayor once,but never mayor. Mr. Speaker, during that period I heard an awful lot of grumbling and complaining about the City of St. John's getting free fire protection and free police protection. That was always a sore spot with the other municipalities and they were demanding the same rights and the same privileges. I presume now in recent years that problem has been overcome because the minister is now sending bills to the City of St. John's for their fire protection and for their police protection.

I am not sure if the bill that is being sent for fire protection covers the full amount or not. MRS. NEWHOOK: MR. NEARY: fifty /fifty? MRS. NEWHOOK: Their share. Their share. What is it shared, No. No. Each municipality contribu,tes like r~nunt Pearl (inaudible}. 9029

December 15, 1983 Tape ~10. 4048 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: I see, but only in the greater St. John's area. In St. John's and the metropolitan area? MRS. NEWHOOK: And St. Thomas, and St. Phillips, and Portugal Cove, all of these. MR. NEARY: They all contribute to the cost of the St. John's - MRS. NEWHOOK: MR. NEARY: To the St. John's Fire Department. Well 1perhaps the minister can tell us what the formula is when she stands. So the discrimination as far as fire prevention is concerned has now apparently been overcome. But the City of St. John's still gets its police protection compliments of the taxpayers of the Province.

MRS. NEWHOOK: The same as all the other municipalities. There is no police protection paid for by any municipality. It is all free. It is all without charge. MR. NEARY: But the other municipalities, Mr. Speaker, do not have police protection. MRS. NEWHOOK: Yes, they have the RCMP, and - MR. NEARY: They have the RCMP but the RCMP - MRS • NEWHOOK: MR. NEARY: And the Province pays for the RCMP. No, Mr. Speaker, the RCMP is a different arrangement. We have two police forces in Newfoundland, the Newfoundland Constabulary and the RCMP. MRS. NEWHOOK: MR. NEARY: They do the same job.

The RCMP police the whole Province although they seem to resent doing ~cipal work, they do not like the idea of enforcing the dog regulations,for instance, or enforcing the building regulations, or enforcing the garbage regulations. The RCMP have always felt that they were above that. But in St. John's the Newfoundland Constabulary do things that the RCMP will not do. And the RCMP are a provincial force. And in some cases the municipalities have their own police force, their own 9030

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4048 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: policemen, and they pay their own policemen and they are not subsidized by the department. MRS. NEWHOOK: The city has its law enforcement 9031

. .. December 15 1 l.9B3 f Tape 4049 1 Page .l -:-- apb MRS, NEWROO:r<": officers,, too~ or what .eyer.. They have a group of people they pay .. MR. · NEA .R:Y; They have. their build.ing inspectors and, th .e like 1 and th.ei·r a,ni'mal control inspectors·,. Out they are not classi:fied as· pol.icemen, So they al?e d.i:!;ferent. r·n that regard~ Mr, $pe.ak.er ~ St, J'ahn l,s gets t.he. preferent.ial, t.reatment, There ±s no da'tlbt abo\lt tfia,t, , S't. John'sgets the preferential treatment, ram not lila.ming it . on t.he mini'Ster ~ that i:s something the mini-s·ter inherited, .Pt i'S somethi:ng that we.

I'Iave had to li.ve with:: since Confede.rati:on in thls Prov.in.ce. But I would assume that that matter will be resolved, ·MR, · TOBIN; :a.ox-, s:i :t down, wi ·ll you? Let some of your col.leag-ues say something that migh.t 1!lake some sense, You a.re. only a, disgrace. to the. House and a disg;r:ace. to the. P·rovi ·nce and everything else. MR. YOUNG: Very encouraging words. That is i·t. R.ight on~ · MR •. NEARY; Mr, Speaker, that 1!latter wi ·l,l be resol,ved 1. I th.i.'nk~ in due course. Because 1 as I under- s·tand itr the.

New-foundland Constabulary <;~,re be..ing expa .nded to ta.ke . over th:e poli'Crng of the whole Provi'nce. Once t.hat happens,. then all. the RCMJ? will do is enforce th.e federal regul.ati'ons, But I am. · not surer, eve.n wi 'th . the expansion, I am not so sure i'f St. John ~s will not still . get the preferentral treatment~ The largest part of the Newtoundl,and Constabulary will.still be in St. John's, and the outlying areas, the outports, the rural areas that the han .. gentlemen there opposite seem to look down their noses at, they look down their noses at the rural parts of this Province - Mr.

Speaker, you ta.lk about class distinction in this Province. We have eighteen members of th.e Cabinet 1 six or seven are from St. John 1·s- what is that? - thirty three. and one..,.·third of the Ca,bi:.ne .t are :!;rom St, John •·s, 9032

December 15 ., 19.83f 'l'aJ?e 40.49 1 Page 2 -.,.. apb MR, NEA~Y; You have twelve districts around St, Johnts and that is an indication to me, Mr. Speaker, that one street .tn St. John's has more _authority and more power than the whole of Labrador. The whole of Labrador only has four members. You have twelve in St. John '·s and in the surrounding areas~ tvrelve members. The whole of Labrador only has one-third that number . So is it any wonder 1. Mr. Speaker 1 that all t.he policies and programmes of th±s· administration are directed toward St. John' ·s, t.oward the urban centres?

Most of the distr±ct.s ±n St., John '··s you coul.d spit across. Could we have a quorum call, Mr ~ Spea .ker ~ QUQ~UM CALL · MR, SPEA.KER (11cN.icholas }_ : Opposition, ·MR. NEA~Y'~ 'l'here i·s a quorum present, 'l'he hon, th .e Leaqer of the Thank you, Mr, Speaker, I can assure hon, gentlemen that they will. haye time to get the .:i:.r Christmas trees, Mr , Speaker, but we are debating some yery important legislation.

It is not our fault on th.is side of the House, it. is not our fault that we have heavy legisl.at±on corning before the House eight or ten da,ys before Christ .mas, And han, gentleman may not like what I: am saying 1 and if he do.es · not, Mr, _Speaker 1 l.et h.irn go down i:n h.±s office and try to straighten out the user fee problem, Because now the Tories in Ottawa have climbed aboard the bandwagon. Now, no wonder the han. gentleman is so testy these days. The administration have had a couple of bad days and they · have a couple of more bad ones corning up yet. MR. HOUSE: and has been since Terra Nova, HR.

NEARY: The han. gentleman is testy Is that so? Is that so. That is what the han. gentleman thinks. 9033

Decembev 15~ 1983, Tape 4049 1 J?a,ge 3 -- !3,pb " ' MR ~ NEARY: The hon, gentlema..n may- have a cad weekend, out I wi:ll not,, ... ,. MR. ®USE: I w;i:;l,l, not eith~r ~ MR.. NEAAY; ~. ~peaker, they ca..n drag out all, the dirt they wa.nt of; th.e. previ:ous / prevrous administration~ it does not affect me, 'l'hat ~r~v:L'ous a.dnti:nistration is: gone, ;r::t is gon;e~ Tl'ley pa.i4 th.e. pri·ce. I N.ow th±$' crowd have to pa,y the. price for thei.'li' a,cti:ons, Mr. Speaker', ~ m . onm: So you a,drni t soJlle tlri'P,g ~1a,s, wrong, MR. NEARY'; No, I do not a,dmit a,nyt~ng \V'as wrong, MR. DINN: We~l . what did they pa¥ the price for ±f notl'rl.ng was wron.g? 9034

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4050 EC-1 MR. NEARY: Well, obviously they were turfed out in 1972 and I presume they paid the price for something or other. And as far as that is concerned, Mr. Speaker, they have been punished long enough. It is time nqw that this crowd started accepting responsibility for their actions. That, Mr. Speaker, is what we are talking about, their actions. And the hon. gentleman can use a+l the threats he wants. Mr. Speaker, nobody will have a hard weekend, any harder than the han. gentleman. They will have time to go get their Christmas trees.

As I indicated, it is not our fault that we are here ten or twelve days before Christmas debating very important legislation. This is an important bill, Mr. Speaker. This is a bill not to be treated lightly, and all we are doing is doing our duty by raising issues, raising questions in connection with these bills that are brought before the House. We would not be worth our salt as members, Mr. Speaker, no member, especially an Opposition member, would not be worth his salt unless he did that! So they can whine and complain all they want over there. MR.

HOUSE: 1-Ve are not doing any complaining, you are the one who is complaining. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman was complaining there a few moments ago. They can whine and complain. They will have time to get their Christmas trees, but that is about all, Mr. Speaker. We have a heavy agenda. We have a lot of important bills 9035

December 15, 1983 Tape 4050 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: on the Order Paper and we intend to stay here .as long as is necessary to debate these bills. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And they can complain and whine all they want. We may have to have our turkey served on the table of this House, Mr. Speaker. We have the savoury, all we have to do now is get the turkey and get somebody to cook it. We may have our Christmas dinner in this House. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I have been listening for ten minutes and the han. gentleman has not mentioned a bill. All he is talking about is - MR. TOBIN: Turkey. ~~- HOUSE: - he is going to stay here and he does not address the bill at all. I would suggest that he be brought to order and speak to the bill. Apparently he does not know anything about it. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I would remind the han. the Leader o£ the Opposition (Mr. Neary) that we are addressing "An Act To Amend The 11unicipal Grants Act". Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. the Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, we will stay as long as is necessary to debate this bill. It is a very important bill, Mr. Speaker; and the han. minister did not do justice to the bill when she introduced it in second reading. That is not a condemnation of the minister. I know that the 9036

December 15, 1983 Tape 4050 EC - 3 MR . NEARY: Government House Leader (Mr • .Marshall) has g:ot the whip, he is cracking the whip to speed things up, Mr . Speaker. That is so obvious to us on this side of the House ! So I am not blaming the hon . minister . The bon. minister did the best she could in the time that she was allowed by the Government House Leader to introduce this bill.

But I am hopin9 now , as a result of questions that I have raised, that the hon. lady in second reading will be a little more explicit, a little more specific, give us some more information concerning the need to bring in these amendments at this particular t.im .e. we were told that some of the amendments came about as a result of recommendations of the Auditor General . 9037

December 15, 1983 MRS . NEWHOOK: MR. NEARY: of acts? MRS . NEWHOOK: HR. NEARY: Well,that is the one­ MRS • NE~IffiOOK: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 4051 MJ - 1 Clarifications of the act. All the amendments are clarifications Except for the firefighting. Except for the firefighting. Part of it. Part of it. Well, Mr. Speaker, this is indeed a new policy and we saw what happened the other day when the minister sent a bill to the City of St. John's, a bill which was totally unexpected ,as I understand it,for their share of fire protection. MRS • NEWHOOK: No, it was not unexpected.

They have been getting that bill for the last three or four years, ever since 1980. MR. NEARY: in the bill this year? MRS . NEWHOOK: Well, is there not an increase Yes. MR. NEARY: A substantial increase, a couple of million dollars? How much is the increase in the bill? MRS. NEWHOOK: I do not know exactly because the fire department is operated by the Department of Justice,not our depa ! tm~nt. W~ are _ only the source for collecting the costs for them. MR. NEARY: So the fire department is operated by the Department of Justice but the funding and the collection of the City of St. John's share of the - MRS.

NEWHOOK: The recovery is done through our department. MR. NEARY: Is done through the minister's department. So there is a kind of a dual responsibility there. 9038

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4051 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we are going to support the amendments and we would like for the minister to answer all of the questions that I raised, comment on the matters that I raised,especially with regard to the fire prevention and what the expansion of the Newfoundland Constabulary will do to eliminate what appears to be 1 and what has been felt throughout Province to be discrimination against the rural parts of this Province.

I started to say, by the way, a few moments ago when I got sidetracked by somebody there opposite, I was talking about the influence and the impact of the St. John's members on the administration, especially on the Cabinet, because all of the policies and the plans of this administration are urban oriented. There seems to be some kind of a barrier down there at the Overpass, Mr. Speaker. They cannot see outside of the overpass and I do not know how long rural members on the government side of the House are going to put up with this nonsense. MR. CARTER: Divide and conquer. MR.

NEARY: Not divide and conquer, it is true. We saw that in the case of the synchrolift versus Marystown, we saw a good example of that. Mr. Speaker, when it comes to making a decision that would have great influence in St. John's or in the rural areas/the scales will alwa ys be tipped in favour of St. John's because they have the majority in the Cabinet, thirty-three and a third per cent of the Cabinet's eighteen members respresent the City of St. John's. 9039

December 15, 1983 Tape 4052 PK - l MR. NEARY: Just look at the influence, the impact that 33 l/3 per ce;t has, to have six or seven members in a Cabinet of eighteen. MR. CARTER: St. John's is not important at all? MR. NEARY: St. John's will get its own way every time. MR. CARTER: St. John's is not important, you Eay? MR. NEARY: St. John's is important. but as , important as it is,we feel that the whole of Labrador is pretty important too. They only have four members in Labrador, that great territory of Labrador,four member. The city of St. John's and metropolitan area,twelve members.

The Great Northern Peninsula,right from St. Anthony right down to Bonne Bayrtwo members, The city of St. John's,ten. MR. DINN: ~fuat about people? MR. NEARY: Forget people because that is where you are wrong. MR. HOUSE: We have to forget people? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. CARTER: Do you want a member in here to represent a bog? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is funny, really funny. MR. WARREN: He represents c savoury patch. MR. NEARY: No,he does not represent a savoury patch. I am not going to be unkind to the han. gentleman because it is getting near Christmas.

But I do not know if we should be speaking on these bills or wishing members a Merry Christmas, Mr. Speaker, to be honest with you. I believe if we keep on, if the Government House Leader (Mr. 9040

December 15, 1983 Tape_ 4052 PK - 2 .MR. NEARY: Marshall) and the administration force us to debate these important pieces of legislation 1 that I believe it would be appropriate to bring a Christmas tree into the House of Assembly so we can all exchange gifts, He already had a gift from the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter). SOME HON. MEMBERS: We are forty-five and you are seven. MR. NEARY: Of course 1we will come out on the winning end because we will get forty-five gifts and they will get seven. And if I had my way, Mr.

Speaker, what I would like to do, I would like to give _ the Premier U-ir, Peckfordl a gift. I would like to take Mr. Chretien and dress him up in a Santa Claus suit and stuff him down in the Premier's chimney with an agreement on the offshore. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, what has this got to do with the bill? MR. NEARY: It got more to do with the bill than the .hon. gentleman will realize. MR. ANDREWS: Do not be frivilous, ~Je just worked out two shifts for next week. MR. NEARY: I know they have their shifts on over there. Mr.

Chretien will come down the chimney with an agreement ready to be signed by him and the hon. gentleman so that they coulc deliver on their election promise . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ,ah! MR. NEARY: So they could deliver, Mr. Speaker, on the one promise that they made in the 1982 election and that was to negotiate an offshore agreement, I understand Your Honour is getting restless there because I am wandering a little bit, I apologize to the Chair, I look forward, Mr. Speaker, to having the hon. minister give us the answers to 9041

December 15, 1983 Tape 4052 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: the many questions that we raised on this bill. I do not know if my colleagues want to debate the bill or not, they have not indicated to me whether they do or nat, but I believe we have raised all the necessary questions in connection with this bill, Mr. Speaker, and we all look forward very much to getting the usual straightforward,honest answers from the hon. minister when she closes second reading of this bill. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : If the han. minister speaks now she closes the debate. MRS . NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, first I think I would like to say to the hon.

Leader opposite that I certainly do not agree with his remarks about my being bullied. I have not seen a man yet who could bully a woman and certainly not this woman. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: I cannot agree with that. I cannot agree with that. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I would like now to refer to the Iron Company of Canada,the issue the hon. Leader raised about the controversy that the council has up there now and ithas gone to court or ithas gone to litigation as to a correct reading on it.

I think he will understand that water and sewer services were installed by the Iron Ore Company of Canada in Labrador City and the roads were constructed and other infrastructure was provided by the company. 9042

December 15,1983 Tape No. 4053 ah-1 MRS NEWHOOK: A couple of years ago the company turned over all of these facilities to the town council. But the company did say to the council, 'We are turning over these facilities to you for $1 ,' I think it is,'but we will continue to pay the debt on these facilities. We will pay the installments until the debt is wiped out: It is this subsidy, as I vlould call it, that the town council of Labrador City are saying constitutes revenue and it should be revenue which would be eligible for the tax incentive grant.

Our department does not agree with this; we say it is a subsidy and subsidies to other municipalities are not considered as revenues collected. So that is the controversy, I think, to which the r han. leader referred. With regard to the police department,! do wish to say that the services of the police are provided free to all municipalities in the Province and it is provided to the city of St. John's in the same way. Whether or not the police do carry out some enforcement laws for the city I am not quite sure, but I know the city does have its own law enforcement people.

Just where the division is I am not quite sure because the police department is not administered by my department~ again, it is the Department of Justice. I would also like to assure him that I do have a good rapport with all the municipalities in the Province. I have a good rapport with the =ederation of municipalities. And he does not know how much and how many times our department gives assistance to the smaller municipalities in the Liberal districts. We do not blow our horn about 9043

- --- December 15,1983 Tape No. 4053 ah-2 MRS NEWHOOK: this kind of thing,but if he were to come in and ask me sometime I would certainly give him a big long list. And also, Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that he does not appreciate the fact. He referred to municipalities in the Liberal districts not getting funding for water and sewer and roads and other capital projects,and I am surprised he does not appreciate the fact that this year Burnt Islands received funding, Port aux Basques, Happy Adventure, Glovertown, Carmanville, some municipalities in Fogo Island, St.

Anthony ,L '.Anse-au-Clair, L 'Anse-au-Loup, Forteau, Nain, Norman's Cove, Whitburne, Cartwright and these are just a few that I can remember off the top of my head. AN HON.MEMBER: Main Brook. MRS NEWHOOK: Oh, yes, Main Brook, that is another one. And I am not even touching on funds that we distribute under our community water services to incorporated water and sewer committees and to local service districts which are spread over all the Liberal districts just the same as they are in the PC districts. And we provide money for industrial systems and these are all over the Province just the same.

So I cannot agree that we are discriminative. I think we are fair, that we distribute our money on a needs basis. I do take issue on that. 9044

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4054 NM - 1 MRS. NEWHOOK: point, Mr. Speaker. And I think I forgot to mention St. Lunaire-Griquet. They received money as well. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to belabour the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MRS. NEWHOOK: - comments in closing the debate. There are other bills to follow. I move second reading, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Municipal Grants Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Comnittee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 52) Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's (Loan) Act, 1978." (Bill No. 60) MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, this is very simple, It just increases the limit of borrowing for the City of St. John's from $20 million to $30 million. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, there are a couple of points that I wish to make on this bill, Mr. Speaker, without delaying it too long, I think 1•1hat the J:Tlinister is doing here is on the one hand she is giving the City of St. John's the authority to borrow an extra $10 million, actually qivinq them the oooortunitv. the avenue, to go in debt more. In fact, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) must have been reading my speech because he predicted what I was going to say. 9045

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4054 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: The comments by the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) show he must realize that this is exactly what the minister is doing, giving the City of St. John's the opportunity of borrowing more money and, naturally, accumulating bigger debts. Why does not the minister, instead of bringing in this bill giving the St. John's City Council the authority to increase borrowing - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WARREN: Do you want to give them a grant? No. It was only just recently there was an invoice received by the City of St.

John's from the government concerning fire equipment in the city, and I think that invoice was a substantial increase from last year. Now, surely goodness, if the government of the day had not seen fit to increase this fire protection invoice by some $2 million, it would not be necessary for the City of St. John's to have increased borrowing. So, Mr. Speaker, I think what the minister is doing is she is playing her cards upside down. All she is doing is giving the opportunity to the City of St. John's to have more opportunities to go in debt further.

On the other hand, there is another way the minister could have gotten out of this, a very simple, easy way. Why does the minister not say to her 'collegues in Cabinet, "Look, we got x number of square footage of real property in this city and we are not paying the city any taxes on our real property in the city." Why did the minister not say, "Look, we will do the same as Craig Dobbin does, or the same as Harold Duffett does, we will pay the city so many mils"? Why did the minister not take that approach and take into consideration the real property that the government owns in this city and say to the St.

John's City Council, "Okay, fellows. I know you are going in the hole year after year. Instead of giving you more opportunity of going further in the hole, 9046

December 15, 1983 Tape 4055 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: let us try to help you and do as any corporate business would do, do as any ordinary citizen in the Province would do, an0 that is pay your taxes"? Now, the minister may get up and say, 'Well, we cannot do it under the act.' The minister can change the act in the same way she is making a change now.

All the minister need have done today was bring in a little amendment on no more paper than this is on, and there could have been a clause put in there saying, 'Effective as of March 31, 1984, the provincial government will be liable for tax on real property in the Province.' That is all the change needed to the Municipality Act. MR. ANDREWS: this bill. MR. WARREN: to do with this bill. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : for a minute, please?

Tax has nothing to do with Oh, yes, it does have a lot This bill is giving - Order, please! .t-1ay I interrupt the han. member It being 5:00p.m., Thursday, I have to inform the House that we have one question for the Late Show from the han. the member for Torngat Hountains concerning an answer the Premier gave in response to a question pertaining to the German Air Force in Goose Bay. Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: The han. the member for Mr. Speaker, when we do not get any answers we are sure to question government and that is why it is on the Late Show. Mr.

Speaker, an han. member said tax does not have anything to do with this bill. 9047

-. December 15, 1983 Tape 4055 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: If a bill comes into this House that has to do with the City of St. John's or any other incorporated community in this Province, it has to do with taxes, because the councils in the various towns and municipalities depend on taxes for survival and subsequently, the St. John's City Council cannot operate on borrowings of $20 million so they are asking for an increas~ of $10 million, which makes it ~30 million, and the minister is saying, 'We will give you authority to borrow up to $30 million.' So this is actually what the bill is saying.

Instead, the minister could have said, :Instead of us giving you authority to borrow up to $30 million, we will pay the City of St. John's and other municipalities throughout the Province X number of dollars for the real property that we have within these municipalities.' Now, that is straight ball, that is fair ball, and I am sure that His Worship Mayor Murphy, or His Worship Mayor Hutchings in Corner Brook,or His Worsl:.ip Hayor · Shouse in Happy Valley - Goose Bay qnd the various - MR. BUTT: Mayor Aubrey Dawe. MR.

WARREN: - His Worship Mayor Aubrey Dawe in Conception Bay South, I am sure that those mayors throughout the Province - MR. CALLAN: Her Worship Mayor Temple in Norman's Cove. MR. WARREN: - Her Worship Mayor Temple in Norman's Cove. I am sure they would agree, they would be quite satisfied to accept some revenue from the government rather than government's permission to extend their borrowing privileges. And just imagine, Madam Minister · if you would consider pa ying one-third to the Cit y of St. John's or even , I would say, one-tenth to 9048

December 15,1983 Tape No. 4055 ah -3 MR. ~1ARREN: the City of St . John's for government property located within its boundaries as compared to what - I \olill just use two names - Harold Duffett is paying for his buildihgs or Craig Dobbin is paying for his buildings in to~~, if the government would only pay one-tenth of what they are required to pay for equal space, equal square footage, ii; the minister would consider - DR. COLLINS: Where would the money come from? MR . ~TARREN: Where would the money come from? Oh 1 my gracious devine!

To ::;tart off with, we could have got Sl .6 million from the ferry down in Springdale, that is where Sl. 6 million could have come from. M.r. Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins), you should not ask that kind of stupid question . .i\.nd another "''ay 1 I think 1 there is 9049

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4056 IB-1 MR. WARREN: a lot of pulpwood left on the dock in Goose Bay, that there is going to be some money raised there. There is going to be a little bit of money raised there. So the minister should know that it is no trouble to gather up some money. So all the minister has to do is assure that he, as Minister of Finance DR. COLLINS: No. 'Vvhat I am saying is that that money is coming from the people of Newfoundland. MR. WARREN: What money is that? DR. COLLINS: The money that you are speaking of,

whereas this is coming from the citizens of St. John's. MR. WARREN: Does not the government have buildings other places than in St. John's. I am sure they do. So the minister could do the same thing in the Municipalities Act, make it mandatory that any government buildings throughout the Province would be liable for property tax. And not necessarily as great as an individual consumer or an individual customer. Mr. Speaker, the Hon. House Leader (Mr. Mars ·halll is ti'ying to get me to close the de:Oa te. I am not sure, '~r. Speaker:..­ I will close the debate.

In fact, one of my colleagues might want to say a few words. But let me say from the outset, whether we vote for the bill or against the bill, we do not care really,Madame Minister,if you want to give the city of St. John's the authority to increase their spending allowance, we do not care whether you do that or not. All you are doing is giving them the opportunity to go further in the hole. But we would suggest - I beg your pardon? MR. HOUSE: What is new? 9050

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4056 IB-2 HR. WARREN: Well, if that is the attitude of the !1inister of Health (Hr. Hous~) - now you can see why there is such turmoil in our hospitals througho~t the Prc·vince, why there are hospital beds closed down, why there are doctors leaving the Province, why the nurses are upset with the doctors~ MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD) : Order, please~ I wish to remind the han. member of our rule of relevancy and that we are discussing

An Act To Amend The City Of St. John~s Loan Act, 1978. for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker - AN HON . MEMBE~: ~vish to Sil.Y? MR. WARREN: The han. th.e member Yes, Mr. Speaker. What does the member I wish to say, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. gentleman, the Minister of Health~ who interferred and said, 'Let them go' - MR. HOUSE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WARREN: I did not interfere. Order, please! Well, why is the Minister of Health interjecting I would like to know, why is he interjecting? Mr. Speaker, we are not saying to the minister, do not give the city of St.

John's the extra money1 we are saying to the minister, surely goodness the minister can see t.h.e. orioriti-es1 that at least the government buildings around the Province should be taxed by the cities,by the towns and the municipalities in which they are located. If thls was done the city of St, John 1's or the city of Corner 9051

December 15, 19_83 Tape No. 4056 IB-3 MR. WARREN: Brook would not need to increase their borrowing. With those few remarks, Hr. Speaker I r· think I will personally call for a vote on the bill. MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD): The han. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Just a few words on the bill. The bill itself is just a minor one, but the underlying reasons why the government is now giving the city of St.

John's the right to raise money, from $20 million to $30 million, the underlying reasons for that is that this -government has been attempting since the ne\-1 !iur..icipalities Act carne in to shift the burden of taxation from themselves onto the municipalities. In the last session l of the Legislature we saw the government start to incorporate property tax across the Province. They held out the carrot, they held out some funds to the municipalities so that they would then bring in property tax so that they could raise more revenues. They have public buildings throughout the width and breadth of St.

John's,including this building, under t~e administration of the town. The fire protection, the water services and everything else in these buildings throughout the town which belong to the provincial government are provided by the municipality 9052

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4057 MJ - 1 MR. HODDER: of St. John's, and as the Mayor of St. John's said recently, he feels that he sqould, and rightly so, get his just due from the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador for fire protection to these particular buildings. Now, Mr. Speaker, the residents of the City of St.

John's are very, very highly taxed, as they are in Corner Brook, Grand Falls and in the larger centers, and what the government has been doing over a period of time is shifting the burden to the councils to collect the taxes and the government itself, in many cases, are not paying their share of the burden. Mr. Speaker, it is becoming so in this Province now that it is hard to find, particularly in rural areas which will be coming under municipal taxation, people willing to run for municipal government. You have councillors resigning across the Province, you hear of it in the public press from time to time.

Anyone who takes a position on a council has a very onerous burden and the people do not realize it. It is not only in municipal politics that the burden of taxation is being shifted to the people, it is in just about every government department. The government has decided as much as it possibly can to shift the burden from itself so that people then look at the second level of government, the most important level of government, the municipalities. words I will sit down. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEA .RY : 9053 Mr. Speaker, with those few Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, I concur with what

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4057 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: my two colleagues have said on this bill. What we are doing here - and I presume the City of St. John's asked,by the way,to have their borrowing increased from $20 million to $30 million, I+- •·TI'"I'lld be very unlikely 1 indeed,that the minister would come into the House with a bill unless it was requested by the City of St. John's but as my two colleagues pointed out,the city is being forced into a situation where it has to borrow more money to Jn<l .i ntain services in the ci tv. DR. COLLINS: The City has not borrowed for two years. MR.

NEARY: No, it has not borrowed. And the mayor indicated,I believe only today,that they are going to try to pay for services out of current account. I only wish, Hr. Speaker, as I said when I spoke on the last bill, that the mayor of this city was the Minister of Finance here in this Province. What a difference in how two governments manage their affairs. What a difference, Mr. Speaker. You have an administration, the second largest administration in the Province, the City of St. John's, which has not had to borrow for two years. They pay for services and their capital works out of current revenue. Mr.

Speaker, is that not something? Compare the mayor and council to the present Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and the administration there opposite, Mr. Speaker. It is like chalk and cheese, it is like comparing chalk and cheese, Mr. Speaker. And I wish the city council well. I congratulate them, I commend the city council. Now mind you, Mr.

Speaker, with their borrowing policies and with their policy of trying to pay their bills and keep things going out of current revenue they have not been able to expand services the way that they would like to,but they have certainly set an example for this administration to 90 51+

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4057 MJ - 3 MR. NEARY: follow, an example in restraint, how you can restrain your borrowing and your spe~ding without curtailing essential services . It is too bad the Minister of 9055

December 15, 1983 Tape 4058 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Health (Mr. House) would not take a leaf out of their book, or the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) who is going back twenty and twenty-five years to collect overpayments from people on social assistance,that should be written off, deducting it from their old age pension. It is too bad, Mr. Speaker, that.the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and the other ministers would not follow the example of the city of St. John's. . ~ - - MR. TULK: A total disaste -r. · DR. COLLINS: A total disaster? MR. NEARY: A total disaster.

The financial mess in this Province is not a total disaster. The Province is only bankrupt. If we were not a Province of Canada we would be bankrupt, Mr. Speaker. That is how much of a disaster it is. But we are not going to belabour the debate on this bill, Mr. Speaker. The han. minister 1 I did not hear her explanation as to why - MR. TULK: She is just up and down! MR. NEARY:-., .Up and down, of course, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) looking at her with daggers, 'make it short, be brief. Ne do not want to have our Christmas dinner in the Legislature•. So, Mr.

Speaker, the han: gentleman responsible for Christmas cards is back I see. MR. YOUNG: Yes, boy, back again. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman responsible for the government sh