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May 12, 2008

39th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2008-May-12 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Monday 12 May 2008 Lundi 12 mai 2008

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

PROVINCIAL ANIMAL

WELFARE ACT, 2008 /

LOI ONTARIENNE DE 2008

SUR LE BIEN-ÊTRE DES ANIMAUX

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO ECONOMY

AGENCY SPENDING

MANUFACTURING JOBS

MANUFACTURING JOBS

AGENCY SPENDING

MINIMUM WAGE

WORKPLACE SAFETY

DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

MANUFACTURING JOBS

PUBLIC HEALTH

RED TAPE REDUCTION

PUBLIC HEALTH

VETERANS

MANUFACTURING JOBS

DRIVER EDUCATION

CORRECTION OF RECORD

PETITIONS

LORD'S PRAYER

ALMA COLLEGE

FIREARMS CONTROL

LORD'S PRAYER

MARY FIX PARK

LORD'S PRAYER

COMMUNITY SAFETY

WYE MARSH WILDLIFE CENTRE

HIGHWAY 138

HOSPITAL FUNDING

HOSPITAL FUNDING

WYE MARSH WILDLIFE CENTRE

HOSPITAL FUNDING

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

ANTI-SMOKING LEGISLATION

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

FIBROMYALGIA AND CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME

AWARENESS DAY

MOTHER'S DAY

FALUN GONG

POVERTY

WORLD PARTNERSHIP WALK

C. DIFFICILE

ÉCOLE SECONDAIRE CATHOLIQUE

DE PLANTAGENET

NURSING WEEK

ONTARIO ECONOMY

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

POLICE WEEK

POLICE WEEK

POLICE WEEK

VISITORS

DEFERRED VOTES

INVESTING IN ONTARIO ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 PERMETTANT

D'INVESTIR DANS L'ONTARIO

TIME ALLOCATION

VISITORS

ORDERS OF THE DAY

COSMETIC PESTICIDES BAN ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 SUR L'INTERDICTION

DES PESTICIDES UTILISÉS

À DES FINS ESTHÉTIQUES

The House met at 0900.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

Mr. Michael Prue: On the last occasion, I had given almost all of my speech, so I just want to reiterate today that, after much deliberation, I will be supporting the bill, although I wish–I wish—the government had done what was necessary to make two minor amendments, one of which was proposed by the Conservative Party, which would have protected victims of incest and rape from having their names disclosed.

The second minor amendment which could or should be made some time in the future is to allow people who have been adopted to make application to determine whether or not their biological parent or parents have died, because there are some difficulties if someone dies outside the jurisdiction. I trust that at some future time both of these will see the light of day. But notwithstanding that, I will be supporting the bill, because it has taken far too long for it to get to this stage.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Further debate?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: There is a short amount of time left to discuss Bill 12. I guess what I have to say, as a new member to this House, is that Bill 12 has been an education for me. We had an opportunity collectively, as legislators, to make some positive changes with Bill 12. The amendment that was brought forward by my PC colleague from Carleton—Mississippi Mills, while it was a PC amendment, to be sure, was actually in the original bill that we are amending.

How unfortunate: I guess it is a bit of an education for me that we can never get rid of our partisan stripes, even when it means protecting Ontario's most vulnerable. As we all know, the amendment would have ensured that children who are abused, removed from the home and subsequently adopted would be automatically protected from having their personal information disclosed to the abuser without their consent. I underline "without their consent," because ultimately this is about protecting victims of abuse, and the Liberal government has chosen to ignore that amendment.

I think it's an unfortunate day and an unfortunate way to end the debate on Bill 12.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Further debate?

There being none, Mr. Milloy has moved time allocation on Bill 12. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour, say "aye."

All those opposed, say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

Call in the members. This will be a 10-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 0906 to 0907.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The vote is deferred until deferred votes today.

Vote deferred.

PROVINCIAL ANIMAL

WELFARE ACT, 2008 /

LOI ONTARIENNE DE 2008

SUR LE BIEN-ÊTRE DES ANIMAUX

Resuming the debate adjourned on May 6, 2008, on the motion for second reading of Bill 50,

An Act to amend the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act / Projet de loi 50, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Société de protection des animaux de l'Ontario.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: It's a pleasure to speak about animal welfare. It's in part, at least, a pleasure to speak to this bill. I wish, in fact, it was a greater pleasure, because there are some problems. I'll go into the problems.

First I wanted to share with the House my introduction to the Toronto Humane Society, that venerable Ontario and Toronto institution—because they don't just handle animals from the Toronto region. This is an institution that's threatened by a very strange

section in this bill, which is

section 6. In

section 6, this Bill 50 takes a swipe at the Toronto Humane Society—in fact, about 235 animal welfare societies across the province. Anyone who uses the word "humane" will cease to be able to use the word "humane" because of

section 6. I rise in

part in defence of the Toronto Humane Society, and here's why.

The why's name was Chuffy. Chuffy was my first dog. We grew up on Bedford Road in Toronto, and Chuffy was one of those venerable Toronto dogs. Chuffy came from the humane society, although Chuffy was a purebred cocker spaniel. There was a lot of the street in Chuffy. Chuffy would not be contained by four walls, ever. We tried to keep him in the yard, but he'd always find a way out, either burrowing under or around, or somehow. So one would often see Chuffy walking around the streets of Toronto.

In fact, as Chuffy aged—Chuffy lived to be 16 years old—Chuffy was noted for crossing all four lanes of Bloor Street at the corner of Bedford and Bloor, in front of the Varsity Stadium, at a very, very slow pace. One could see all four lanes of traffic screeching to a halt just to let Chuffy by.

Chuffy would find himself all over the GTA at various times, and at various times we, as Chuffy's family, would get a call from the humane society saying, "Please come and pick up your dog," which we would. So the Toronto Humane Society, in my family, came to be known as Chuffy's hotel, and we would say, "Chuffy's at the hotel again," and there we would be, going to pick up this venerable old dog. So it's in honour of Chuffy's hotel that I stand today.

Chuffy's hotel, the humane society—which serves so well and so frequently, and has served, I might add, for over 120 years in the city of Toronto—is under threat because of this silly

section 6. One wonders why this

section is even in this bill.

I'm going to read a letter from the president of the Toronto Humane Society, Tim Trow, to Minister Bartolucci.

"We write to ask you to remove

section 6 from Bill

Section 6 provides that community-built shelters that either don't want to be affiliates of the Ontario SPCA, or shelters that the Ontario SPCA itself does not want as affiliates, will be stripped automatically of their names by the Legislature.

"Historically in Ontario, the many voices of the province's animal welfare movement have been its strength. If the result of Bill 50 is but one voice, Bill 50 will have stifled debate and diversity and will have weakened what has been built up in communities over generations.

"Bill 50's role for the Ontario SPCA appears to be one of insurmountable conflict of interest, because the Ontario SPCA will become both regulator and fundraising competitor to its 32 affiliates.

"In addition, Ontario's animal welfare movement is wider than the Ontario SPCA or its affiliates. Bill 50 will instantly, upon enactment, strip the names and identities of other charities amongst the 235 Ontario animal protection charities registered with the Canada Revenue Agency.

"Bill 50 provides for no decision-making process and no appeal to the courts. It provides no explanation as to why it is necessary for the Legislature to take away the identities of any charities.

"Sanctions against holding out or infringing a corporate name already exist in Ontario law. In the case of the Toronto Humane Society, there could be no confusion because there is no similarity between 'the Toronto Humane Society' and the 'Ontario SPCA.'"

One might make a note at this point—I'll continue reading the whole text of this letter—that the Toronto Humane Society has a 6% kill rate. It's a kind of grim term, but a term that has meaning; it means that only 6% of the animals that are taken in to the humane society are actually put down,

whereas the Ontario SPCA has a kill rate of 51%. I think that any citizens out there concerned about animal welfare would be shocked by the difference. The fact that this legislation is giving the nod to the OSPCA over the Toronto Humane Society seems to indicate that they think a 51% kill rate is all right.

"The Toronto Humane Society is a well-known Ontario landmark, a hospital and shelter, caring for both wild and domestic animals. We employ 150 caregivers, and, at any time, 500 volunteers provide recuperative or palliative care as foster parents, feed orphan kittens in the nursery, groom cats, or walk dogs."

"We serve province-wide, one-third of our clients coming to us from beyond our Toronto area.

"The Toronto Humane Society has grown and prospered since 1887 because of the generous support of financial contributors and members. We do not receive, and have never received, government funding or funding from the Ontario SPCA"—important, particularly for taxpayers in this province.

"Our name is how we have been identified for 121 years. It has been entrusted to us by successive provincial governments and it represents the goodwill and trust of generations.

"Our name is how we speak to supporters and donors, and it is how they identify us in their wills or in other giving. It is how volunteers and animal caregivers find us and it is how clients access our services—rescuing animals, reuniting lost animals, saving injured wildlife, providing veterinary care, extending shelter and providing homes."

"Take away our name and identity and you jeopardize our ability to provide essential animal care to citizens when they are desperate and in need.

"Please remove

section 6 from Bill 50.

"Yours truly,

"Tim Trow, president."

I want to say as well that the writers of some of the e-mails I've received on Bill 50 seem to think that this has something in common with a previous private member's bill, Bill 154, which had to do with the licensing and the oversight of private zoos, of roadside zoos, as they're called.

What is somewhat shameful on this government's behalf is that what was a wonderful bill by the member from Willowdale protecting exotic animals has not only not morphed into Bill 50 and has not been taken on by the cabinet and Dalton McGuinty but has been left aside at the roadside, so to speak. In fact, in this new bill there is no protection for exotic animals or roadside zoo animals unless they're domestic animals. They are not covered or protected by this bill at all. So what animal welfare activists have thought in this province, that Bill 154 was going to be a component part of Bill 50, has not only not been realized but has been completely and utterly ignored.

What is quite frightening here is a general trend by this government, and in particular the cabinet—because we know that all power issues from the Premier here, Dalton McGuinty—to override private members' bills, to ignore private members' bills, even from their own backbenchers. Even when their own backbenchers put forward bills that have phenomenal merit, this government overrides them, overlooks them and ignores them.

Here we have a very substantive private member's bill, Bill 154, that was purporting to look after exotic animals and licensed roadside zoos, and instead, what do we find in Bill 50? None of the above. There is no protection for exotic animals and no protection for roadside zoo denizens, none whatsoever, despite the fact Bill 154 had support from the president of the Canadian Association of Zoos and Aquariums, who was enthusiastic about the promise to regulate roadside zoos.

One definitely feels for the member from Willowdale here and for any other backbencher in the Liberal caucus who decides they want to bring forward a bill of merit. The hope is, of course, that it comes and issues directly from the cabinet, but in these instances where members come up with excellent ideas and excellent legislation and are not only ignored, but in fact, one would say, insulted by the government bringing forward a bill that doesn't even acknowledge what their bill purported to do—this is the case with 154, that has morphed into Bill 50.

Other animals that are not looked after by this bill are animals that are on farms, or wild animals or research animals or any other animals that are so deemed by the cabinet. That seems like a great many animals indeed for an animal welfare bill. Let me talk about farm animals for a minute.

Farmers whose livelihood depends on their animals tend to look after their animals. But there's a particular classification of farm animals that aren't really owned by farmers. They're owned by what is certainly not well-named: gentlemen farmers. In one instance—and this was just a few years back—we had a case of 50 horses starved to death by one of these so-called gentlemen farmers. There was nothing gentlemanly about this individual, and there certainly wasn't anything farmer about him either: He was a lawyer.

I suggested when I first made comments about this bill that if there were more farmers in this Legislature and fewer lawyers, maybe we would get a bill that looked after animals better than Bill 50 does. Here's an individual whose animals—the 50 horses—would not be covered by Bill 50. In fact, he would not be prosecuted by the terms of this bill. He would not be held to account by the terms of this bill. Again, there is a huge gap, a gaping hole in the provisions for animal welfare that this bill purports to do.

I've already mentioned roadside zoos. Again, the ideology of this bill came out of that. I also want to say that there is another member here who really should be credited with some of the early work on animal welfare. The member from Eglinton—Lawrence brought in, away back in 2001, a private member's bill about puppy and cat mills. At that point, interestingly enough, the then Progressive Conservative government, and in particular Julia Munro from York—Simcoe, brought forward a bill as government that mirrored the bill brought forward by an opposition member at that time.

One would hope that the McGuinty cabinet would do as much for their own members. In this instance, we did get a step forward, albeit a small step, for animal rights that looked at puppy and kitten mills across the province. So we've seen how it can work that an animal welfare bill by a private member, even an opposition member, can be taken up by a cabinet and can be made law in very short order and can do something to protect, in this case, the rights and welfare of animals and animal owners in this province.

I wanted to talk about three trends in short that I've noticed—since I've been a member in the House for only two years now—about private members' bills generally. That is this trend to give them no credence whatsoever by the McGuinty cabinet and by Dalton McGuinty himself. Over and over, we see in this House the good, solid legislative research work of private members being ignored. There is a long litany of the ignoring of private members' bills and private members' efforts.

In this case, as I've said already, the member from Willowdale had brought in an extremely valuable piece of legislation, one that I know we all received e-mails about. Stacks of petitions were read in this House to support this bill. Everybody agreed, including those in the industry, that roadside zoos and exotic animals needed protection, yet this bill was just allowed to die. In fact, when the new animal welfare bill came forward that could have included it, it did not.

That's only one example. There are many examples here. I know that the member from Niagara Falls brought in a bill on grandparents' rights. Again, for the third time, his bill was ignored by the McGuinty cabinet. Again, for the third time, a backbencher within his own caucus clearly did not have his voice heard by the cabinet, and clearly was not given the time of day. So many, many instances abound.

I certainly hope that in the future—I know that there are probably only a few weeks left of this legislative session—the McGuinty cabinet starts to look to their own backbenchers and starts to use their talents. I do remember Dalton McGuinty saying that he wanted to uphold the strengths of the individual MPP and give the individual MPP—the backbencher—more voice. Instead, we see what's happened is the individual MPP backbenchers being given even less voice than they were under the previous administration here.

The other tendency—and there are three tendencies of private members' bills in this House—is that the bill is spun one way to the press, and then when you actually read the bill, it says something quite different. The spin on Bill 50, of course, is that this is a huge step forward for animal welfare in this province, that this is going to make all the difference to animals. I've already outlined that there are many various categories of animals that are not even covered by this bill. In particular, Bill 154 is not reflected in this bill.

Even more to the point, in the middle of this bill, this egregious

section 6 does something that no animal welfare activist in this province would ever want to see happen: to strip the venerable institution of the Toronto Humane Society of its very existence and its very title, and another 235 animal welfare societies across the province. That is the purport of

section 6. One wonders why it's stuck in the middle of an animal welfare bill. Why is it so important to the OSPCA and the Liberal cabinet that Toronto Humane Society lose "Humane" from its title? One wonders.

In my earlier comments on this bill, I suggested that one look at the political affiliations of the board of the OSPCA, because I can't imagine any other reason that this turf warfare would be carried on in the middle of an animal welfare bill that absolutely will not help animals; in fact, will hurt animals. Again, I cite the difference in the kill rate: 6% at the Toronto Humane Society, 51% at the OSPCA. Does OSPCA really want to dominate animal welfare in this province to this degree, and does the Liberal cabinet really want to help them?

We saw this in Bill 35, the infamous slush fund bill, purported to be a bill to help cities, municipalities and infrastructure; in fact, neither of those words, "infrastructure" and "municipalities," are mentioned in the bill. What Bill 35 does is justify slush funds, the ability of the government to give to non-profits as much money as it wants left over, over the subtotal of $600 million, to whoever it wants. We know what that looks like; we know why they didn't want the Auditor General speaking on that particular bill.

We know why it flies in the face of accounting procedures, and yet they rammed that bill through. One wonders, when you look at Bill 50, if some of that slush fund money won't be flowing to the OSPCA. Clearly, there's a

section in this bill that seems to indicate that they have the nod of the Liberal cabinet, and certainly the Toronto Humane Society does not—I must say, much to the chagrin and much to the horror of hundreds of people in this city. I've lost count of the number of e-mails I've received on that.

Finally—this is important—we have three tendencies of private members' bills in particular embodied in Bill 50: (1) a general trend to discount their own backbenchers' private members' bills, to disregard them, to ignore them, to ignore what's best and brightest in their own caucus; (2) to spin bills one way and then deliver a bill that says something very different entirely; and (3)—this is critical—that the bills don't have money backing them anyway.

How in the world is Bill 50 going to be enforced if there isn't a line item in the budget for it, if there's no money to back these increased inspections and these increased enforcement? Is this just another instance—and I suspect and state that it probably is—of downloading yet more costs to municipalities, saddling them with more legislation that they have to enforce and not giving the money to enforce it? We can see the ramifications of that: blaming them when they're not enforced and shoving the blame away from where it definitely should reside, and that is in the sanctum sanctorum of the McGuinty government.

Just to summarize Bill 50: Will we support it? Absolutely, we'll support it, because an inch forward is still an inch, where animal welfare is concerned. Does this bill have major problems? Absolutely, it does. It deserves a good deal of committee time. There are gaping holes in this bill. There's that absolutely unwarranted, unwanted

section 6, which, as I say, is a direct slap in the face of 235 welfare organizations across Ontario, particularly the Toronto Humane Society—Chuffy's hotel.

I'll end where I began, with just an homage to my dog, Chuffy, and to all the dogs and cats across this province who, if Bill 50 were to pass as written, would not have the home that they have now, the hotel that they have now, the Toronto Humane Society, but would be stripped of that right. If

section 6 continues in Bill 50 and is not stricken at the committee level, you can bet that animal welfare will be set back and not put forward by Bill 50 in this province. I suggest that this bill go to committee, go there quickly and be given a very thorough reading, and that a very thorough consultation happen with, in particular, those members who have been left out of this discussion.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Questions and comments?

Mr. Monte Kwinter: I want to just take the two minutes that I have to respond to the member from Parkdale—High Park.

I have a history with the Ontario Humane Society. You may know or may not know that in 1984 I was appointed the interim chair of the Toronto Humane Society. The reason for that is that there was a huge discussion between the Toronto Humane Society and the city of Toronto, because the Toronto Humane Society had a contract to provide animal control. They had a direct conflict. You can't be in the welfare business and in the control business, because in the control business you bring in a very large number of animals and you ultimately have no choice but to dispose of them.

When you use the figure of 6% for the humane society and 51% for the SPCA, the reason is that the Toronto Humane Society is no longer in the animal control business, and that is being run by a separate agency of the city of Toronto. The Toronto Humane Society does a wonderful job, but historically they've always had this internal conflict.

The reason I was asked to go in and try to resolve it was because they literally had physical confrontations with each other, because there were those on the animal welfare side who felt, "How can we possibly be in the welfare business when in fact we are taking in animals that are strays that come to us and, because there such a huge number, we have to dispose of them?" So that's how that happened, and now, of course, the Toronto Humane Society does its welfare—and does it very well. I have nothing but praise for them.

They do a wonderful job and are a wonderful facility, but they have had to resolve that particular conflict, and that is the result of what has happened.

Mr. Norm Miller: I'm pleased to add some comments to the speech from the member from Parkdale—High Park on Bill 50,

An Act to amend the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act.

First of all, I'll speak a bit about

section 6, which seems to be bringing a lot of attention. I've certainly received some e-mails from people concerned with that section. It seems to be dealing with a bit of a turf war going on. What

section 6 does is prevent anyone other than the OSPCA from using the name "humane society." Obviously, if you're the Toronto Humane Society, losing your name is something that is pretty important to you. So I certainly have some sympathy for that, and I don't support this

section 6.

Speaking just a bit from the perspective of my own riding, I would like to see standards of care for zoos across the province. We have had a situation in the riding of Parry Sound—Muskoka where there have been roadside zoos, I guess is the terminology used, and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of rules to do with those roadside zoos. I would support province-wide rules that bring in standards of care for the animals so that you have proper-sized pens, for example, and their safety concerns are taken into effect.

We did have one case in the not-too-distant past in the riding of Parry Sound—Muskoka where a large exotic cat got out of its cage and killed a dog. Obviously that's not a good thing to be happening, and obviously that's a danger to the general public who might be visiting a facility like that, not to mention the situation for the animals that are being cared for there. I think we have a gap. We have some fairly tight rules for native animals in Ontario, but the exotic animals are missed. So there is a need for some rules.

Mr. Michael Prue: I rise to give a two-minute comment on my colleague from Parkdale—High Park. I listened intently to what she had to say. I think there were three or four very important things, but time will limit me to only two comments.

The first was about the number of private members' bills that have been before this House that could have and should have been incorporated into this bill but were not. I remember the raw emotion of the day, going back a number of years, when the present member from Eglinton—Lawrence spoke about puppy mills. There were two competing bills at that time, one by the member from York—Simcoe and one by the member from Eglinton—Lawrence. I remember thinking and listening to the bill and the sheer force of what was being said.

I remember coming down on the side of the member from Eglinton—Lawrence because I felt that his bill was stronger and would have done a great deal more to ban puppy mills in the province. I looked forward to this bill, to see whether any of those very good ideas that he put before this Legislature all those years ago were contained, and sadly they were not.

I'm also reminded of the member from Willowdale and his groundbreaking work on roadside zoos. That too has not been contained within the body of the bill. The member from Parkdale—High Park was right to point out that this government all too often fails to utilize the private members' bills that are good.

On the subject of

section 6, I can only concur. Having grown up in Toronto and having known about the Toronto Humane Society and its 121-year history, it seems an awful shame to me that we turn around at this point and simply change the name. They have done a wonderful job for the people of this city. I even got my own dog from there—more about that later.

Mr. Mike Colle: I'd like to comment on the member from Beaches—East York and his comments here. I just want to point out to him

section 11.4. I don't think the member from Parkdale—High Park read this

section either. It's "Protection of Animals by Societies." It gives this bill the power to inspect wherever there are animals for exhibit, entertainment or boarding: "An inspector or an agent of the society may, without a warrant, enter and inspect any building or place used for animal exhibit, entertainment, boarding, hire or sale…." This is important in terms of roadside zoos and people who are in the business of displaying animals. That's in is this bill; it has never been in any bill before. It's very powerful legislation.

It also, for the first time, ensures that you are now not allowed to train animals to fight and kill each other in this province. That's allowed now in Ontario. All kinds of animals are being trained right now to kill each other—that's allowed. This bill, if passed, will make it not allowed. That's long overdue.

It also allows animal welfare inspectors to enter places of business to ensure that there is a standard of care. Right now there is zero standard of care. You can breed 10,000 puppies, kittens or whatever—no inspection allowed. Thousands of people, right now, are in the business of breeding animals for big profits with no inspections; you can't enter. These animals are in incredibly horrendous conditions. This bill would finally give animal welfare officers the power to inspect places of business to make sure there's a standard of care. Right now you can't do it.

Finally, veterinarians would have to report abuse. They don't do that right now because of the fact that they are not compelled to. Now they would be.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Member for Parkdale—High Park, you have two minutes to respond.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Thanks for all the comments.

First of all, to the member from Eglinton—Lawrence: It's native animals, not exotic animals, that are covered by this bill, whether they are penned, exhibited or whatever.

Absolutely, this bill is a step forward; it's a yard when we want a mile. "Why," one asks, and this is what our comments really circled around, "is

section 6 there at all?" Why is this done at the expense of the Toronto Humane Society? This bill would take away "humane" from the Toronto Humane Society's name after 121 years. Why is that in the bill at all?

Also, my point still stands: It's one thing to have veterinarians report abuse; it's another to have the money to pay for the inspectors to go and find the abuse, prosecute it and carry it to trial. That takes money. There's no money attached to this bill.

Absolutely, we in the New Democratic Party would like to see this bill go ahead to committee, would like to strengthen it, would like to plug the holes in it and would like to take

section 6 out of it. We would like to make Bill 50, the animal welfare bill, an actual animal welfare bill for as many animals as could be included in it, and take out this turf warfare aspect, so aptly described by the member for Parry Sound—Muskoka. Take that piece out. It doesn't need to be there; it shouldn't be there.

I heard the comments of the member from York Centre. Notwithstanding the history he may have with the Toronto Humane Society, we had the president of the Toronto Humane Society, Tim Trow, here, as well as thousands of e-mails to show you that the Toronto Humane Society and all its supporters want

section 6 out, and they should get it out.

This needs to go to committee. It needs to be supported, yes, but it also needs to be strengthened so that animal welfare in this province will be strengthened.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Further debate?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I'm pleased to speak to Bill 50 this morning. As the member from Parkdale—High Park has already highlighted, I do have some questions as to why we need to specifically remove or, let's say, micromanage the use of the name "humane society" when we talk about animal welfare agencies. I can't think of very many examples where we legislate what should or should not be in an organization's name when it's not offensive, and I don't think anyone would suggest that the words "humane society" are going to offend anyone. I would support the removal of

section 6, where they must not use the words "humane society." Obviously that will assist the Toronto Humane Society, which I believe has been in existence longer than the bill we're modifying—120 years. This animal welfare legislation hasn't been reviewed in 90 years. I would support the removal of

section 6 as well.

There are a few things I would like to highlight, primarily because there have been a few opportunities for me to speak to people from my riding of Dufferin—Caledon who have had a chance to review Bill 50. I'll just start with Gord Grant, who happens to be the Ontario Federation of Agriculture representative for Waterloo, Wellington and Dufferin. He talks about Bill 50. I think what I'm reading about in his letter is the desire to have more information, more details. His first request is, "OFA requests that Bill 50 be sent to a legislative committee for public hearings following second reading."

I think I know where Gord is coming from, because when I start to read through the specific sections of the proposed legislation, there's some great stuff in it: "No person shall cause an animal to be in distress. No owner or custodian of an animal shall permit the animal to be in distress."

Nobody can train an animal to fight another animal or allow an animal owned or cared for to fight other animals; nobody can own equipment or structures used in animal fights or training animals to fight; nobody can harm a dog, a horse or any other animal that works with peace officers, whether or not the animal is performing those duties at the time of the harm.

There are some excellent things in Bill 50. What isn't in it is some of the detail. There is reference made to an obligation on behalf of veterinarians to report abuse. Again, a great idea, but if I was a veterinarian practising in Ontario today, I would want very specific feedback and details on what we're looking at. A benign example: There are those who will brush their cat's teeth. They say it keeps the cat healthier, it keeps it longer; there are many who would not brush their cat's teeth.

If a vet is looking at an animal and seeing a buildup of plaque and a buildup of issues in their mouth, does that entail abuse? You can laugh, but in fact I have had vets in Dufferin—Caledon ask, "Where does it begin? Where does it end?" They would like to have clear limitations, clear expectations of what they are to look for and what they are to report. Those are the guidelines.

I guess that's where we come back to the regulations. The bill has some wonderful concepts in it, but I would like more of the regulations to be put in the actual legislation so that during committee, during debate, the people who are going to be affected by it—owners of animals, veterinarians, rural Ontario farmers—know specifically what their expectations are and, quite frankly, so that the people who have a very serious concern about animal welfare in Ontario know what to look for.

I grew up in rural Ontario, and I think of things that you do on the farm that are part of your standard operating procedure, for lack of a better word. When you tag cattle's ears it's kind of noisy. You get kind of busy. If someone was driving in rural Ontario, would they look at that operation from afar and say, "Hey, they're abusing animals in there. Those cows aren't enjoying themselves. I see people pushing the animals around"? Are they going to call the OSPCA on that?

There's a huge education component that must occur whenever you empower people to call authority and initiate reviews without that third party review of either standing in front of a justice of the peace or getting the warrant.

Another example is when we wean cows from calves. It gets pretty noisy for a week or so. The calves get very agitated because they can't access their mother's milk whenever they want it anymore. If I was a new resident to rural Ontario living across the street from that farm operation, would I be concerned, call the OSPCA and say, "I don't know what's going on. Last week it was quiet and this week I'm hearing cows like crazy. What's going on? I think you should inspect. I think you should go in and pull the animals away"?

There was a very pointed letter from residents in my riding specifically related to the Ontario SPCA. Basically, the gist of their argument was that animals need to be protected in Ontario, without a doubt. But when you empower an organization with the kinds of powers that we are giving to the OSPCA with Bill 50, there is an understanding that there should be a regulation, a review—an overseer, if I may.

They've actually gone to the point where they've put a petition together, and I'll just read the pertinent points:

"Whereas the Provincial Animal Welfare Act calls forth the Ontario SPCA, a private charity, whose 'object' is to facilitate and provide for the prevention of cruelty to animals and their protection and relief therefrom;

"Whereas every inspector and agent hired and trained by this private charity has and may exercise any of the powers of a police officer;

"Whereas this private charity does not answer to the Ombudsman or the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services; the Ontario SPCA is not subject to the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act and no external mechanism of accountability exists;

"Whereas the McGuinty government refused to investigate the desperate plea of 29 resigned directors demanding that the Ontario SPCA be stripped of police powers (May 2006);

"Whereas the McGuinty government proposes sweeping reforms to the Provincial Animal Welfare Act granting further extraordinary powers to the Ontario SPCA, including the power of warrantless entry;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"(1) ... direct the provincial government to investigate allegations of abuse of police powers and charter violations by the Ontario SPCA investigators;

"(2) ... explore the need for an external mechanism of accountability for the Ontario SPCA;

"(3) ... ensure that proposed changes to the Provincial Animal Welfare Act do not violate the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms."

There are clearly individuals who have concerns that we are giving the power without giving the controls. I would hope that during committee and during the discussion that we would have at the committee level on Bill 50, some of those oversight agencies are considered as well.

I've already referenced

section 6, and I think that has been covered very well by the member for Parkdale—High Park as well as our own critic from Simcoe—North, so I will just add my name supporting it.

The other thing—and again, this is from a farmer in my riding of Dufferin—Caledon. He talks about the fact that he firmly believes that no one should be cruel to animals and we need to have this legislation updated and brought forward. "From a farm perspective," he believes "it is unnecessary, unproductive, unethical and antisocial." He is concerned as a taxpayer that, because of the powers that we are giving, it's going to lead to a need for more inspections. I will add my comment there in terms of how I have no issue with the inspectors as long as the inspectors have that oversight and proper training they will need.

I think all of us understand the need to protect animals. I don't want someone who is overzealous and forgets that there are controls that go with power. You can't have absolute power and then not have anyone saying, "These are the things you look for. These are the things that you should be reviewing."

He goes on to talk about the many pieces of legislation that have been enforced on the agricultural industry in Ontario. Most recently, he talks about the federal gun registry, but also nutrient management, the greenbelt legislation, source water protection, the Oak Ridges moraine, land rights. He makes an argument that every time you bring forward a new piece of legislation, a new regulation, there is implementation, or there are changes that have to occur on the ground level, so to speak.

We have to decide as a society where our rights as landowners and our rights trying to earn a living balance against the rights of the animals in our care—and how much we can afford as a provincial government.

He talks about farmers. Farmers understand that their production levels go up when their animals are treated well. Their production and, therefore, the returns, increase when they are treating their animals—feeding, watering, bedding them—properly. He questions whether we have enough oversight from the agencies that are ultimately going to be enforcing Bill 50.

Bill 50 provides that animal abusers can be fined up to $60,000, end up in jail, or be banned from owning pets—perfect. These are all justifiable and necessary punishments for individuals responsible for animals under their care that are mistreated or abused. However, these punishments, particularly the jail time, cause concern, given the criteria under which alleged abusers can be investigated. If enacted, Bill 50 does not require animal protection officers to prove intent in case of cruelty, but only evidence of ownership and that the animal was mistreated.

OSPCA agents have the right to inspect places other than a residence where animals can be kept for entertainment, exhibition, sale or hire, without a warrant.

I am concerned about the erosion of rights, that if passed these sections would be made law. If ever there was a slippery slope, entry into private premises without a warrant, possibly leading to jail time, would definitely be an example.

A warrant is issued by an independent third party after it has been demonstrated that there is a reason to believe that a crime has been committed. The purpose of the warrant is to safeguard individuals against arbitrary intrusion by law enforcers in the pursuit of a person suspected of committing actions worthy of crimes, or people committing them.

There are five scenarios in which the phrase "without a warrant" appears in Bill 50. One of these scenarios refers to the current act, while the remaining four are included in the proposed legislation. As legislators, we must always stop to ensure that our legislation complies with the guidelines laid out in the Constitution. These guidelines include a division of powers, but more importantly they include a Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Section 8 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms provides that, "Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure."

With respect to the five instances in which the phrase "without a warrant" appears, the word "reasonable" only appears twice: once in the current act and once in scenarios referring to the current act. This leaves a majority of times in which this legislation provides that no warrant is necessary, without any provisions that the search or seizure be reasonable. In light of the requirements of our constitution, this is troubling to me.

One need only look at decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada to see that legislation or policy that provides for warrantless search or seizures does not stand the test of the Constitution, not to mention warrantless seizures or searches that are intentionally not based on reasonable evidence. In Hunter v. Southam, the Supreme Court of Canada struck down the search and seizure provisions in the Combines Investigation Act on the grounds that there was no provision for a prior independent review by a judicial officer of the appropriateness of the search. Writing for a unanimous court, Justice Brian Dickson provided the following comments with regard to

section 8 of the charter: The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms "is to guarantee and to protect, within the limits of reason, the enjoyments of the rights and freedoms it enshrines. It is intended to constrain governmental action inconsistent with those rights and freedoms; it is not in itself an authorization for governmental action….

"The guarantee of security from unreasonable search and seizure only protects reasonable expectation. This limitation on the right guaranteed by s[ection] 8, whether it is expressed negatively as freedom from 'unreasonable' search and seizure, or positively as an entitlement to a 'reasonable' expectation of privacy, indicates that an assessment must be made as to whether in a particular situation the public's interest in being left alone by government must give way to the government's interest in intruding on the individual's privacy in order to advance its goals, notably those of law enforcement."

In striking down the legislation which allows the authorization to search, the court provided guidelines for search and seizure which have become an integral component of search law in Canada. Where it is feasible, a search must be approved by prior authorization. Although it may not always be reasonable to insist on prior authorization, there will be a presumption that a warrantless search is unreasonable. And I would hope that in Bill 50 that particular comment is very much part of the education and process as we train our officers.

The person authorizing the search must act in a judicial manner. Although the person need not be a judge, he or she must be in a position to assess in a neutral and impartial fashion whether a search is appropriate on the evidence available.

The standard for issuance of the warrant is similar to American probable cause. There must be reasonable and probable grounds, established upon oath, to believe that an offence has been committed and that evidence of that offence is to be found at the place to be searched. So it comes back to, if I'm a disgruntled neighbour and I've been listening to my neighbour's dog bark or whine for the last two weeks, I hope that is not sufficient for me to pick up the phone, call the OSPCA and initiate an investigation.

I would hope that we give the OSPCA the ability to review those vexatious comments and sort them out, and that we give the inspectors the ability to make those calls—but we train them for it.

I will finish by saying that while I very much support the updating to the animal welfare act, I am disappointed that so much of the detail and the specifics are going to be left to regulation, where they will not be open to the public scrutiny and the public input that, quite frankly, I think we need when we are talking about rights of the property owner and rights of animal welfare in Ontario.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Questions and comments?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: I listened with interest to the member from Dufferin—Caledon. She gave a very extensive and well-researched discussion about Bill 50 and its problems. In my 20 minutes I tried to highlight some of those problems as well. I just want to comment on a couple of issues she raised that I thought were fascinating. One was the concern of veterinarians about the definition of abuse and the impact on veterinarians' practice.

Again, one wouldn't be too worried for the veterinarians, I would think, but more worried for the animals perhaps, in that this bill doesn't have a lot of teeth—doesn't have any money behind it anyway. But certainly, it shows the lack of consultation that went into the drafting of this bill, that they didn't think to ask veterinarians, or certainly not enough veterinarians, what they thought to hear that obvious point of view.

The second aspect of this is about the warrantless search-and-seizure aspect of Bill 50. Again, I found that a fascinating discussion about rights. I'm a little concerned. Animals are somewhat different, and one can imagine an instance where an animal is left to suffocate in a car, where the right of the animal, one would hope, would overcome the necessity to serve somebody with a warrant before breaking the window and saving the dog or cat. I can see some problem areas here.

The member from Dufferin-Caledon highlighted the fact that these are areas that need to be looked at before the lawyers get at it and completely take away any possible impact for animals' welfare. The onus is on us, as legislators, to really make sure that this bill is tight, that the holes are plugged, that the ends are tied and that as this moves forward, it does what it's supposed to do; that is, look after animal welfare without being a detriment to humans.

Mr. Mike Colle: I'd like to speak on the comments of the member from Dufferin—Caledon. I found it a bit far-fetched that she would talk about whether or not the owner of an animal brushes its teeth might be subject to some kind of procedure under this act. I can imagine using some examples, but it's certainly too far-fetched to say that that might be a case of abuse. That is what causes this sometimes irrational reaction to animal welfare protection.

I'd also like to mention that this bill is not about farm animals; it exempts agricultural communities under their regular practices. This is not about fish and wildlife and anglers and hunters, because they are not the problem. The problem is that right now, there are people making money breeding animals and you can't inspect their premises. Therefore, they breed animals in cramped conditions, they don't feed them, they keep them in the dark for weeks at a time and they can't be inspected. What this bill does is say that you can inspect.

We have the power to inspect restaurants to make sure the food is in hygienic conditions. Right now, you, as an individual, need a licence for dog ownership, yet you need no licence and you're not subject to inspection if you're in the business of breeding animals to kill each other.

There are two extremes: The NDP is saying, "Well, there are no teeth," yet the Tories are saying, "This is an unprecedented charter of rights violation." This is a reasonable attempt. People have been trying to do this for 90 years, and now you know why it has taken 90 years: When it comes down to it, there isn't the political will to stand up and say, "We've got to stop the abuse of animals in this province."

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: I very much appreciate the member from Eglinton—Lawrence's comments. I don't think anybody is opposed to shutting down puppy mills or inappropriate operations that cause a lot of distress in the quality of life for animals. That's not becoming to Canadians or to those of us in Ontario. I think the problem, when you cast that net, is what you take in. We hear a lot of things about roadside zoos. I'd like to know which roadside zoos they're referring to.

Having had the privilege and honour in a previous government, I certainly gained the perspective that there was somewhat of a movement toward having two zoos, potentially, meet the standard they're looking at in these roadside zoos. Those would be the Toronto zoo and, with some adjustments, the African Lion Safari. Everything else would shut down, depending on who came forward and how the regulations came forward for the rest of the province. So there's a lot of concern out there, and there should be. Quite frankly, I have no problem shutting down some of these places.

I can't walk into a place to see an animal, in some cases now, that a lot of people go to, but it gives some exposure to a lot of the public at large.

One of the other areas, when we cast this net, is the training apparatus. What happens with shock collars? Maybe you can tell us. For those who don't know, shock collars are used for invisible fencing, as a typical term. They put this wire around an area, and when the animal goes near it, the shock collar goes off and sends a signal: "You don't want to go there." It keeps dogs or animals protected in an area. It's the same thing with electric fences that are commonly used in rural Ontario to keep animals in. This is a way to train animals.

What would happen, specifically, with those sorts of apparatuses? Is it going to affect those? Is there going to be control? Quite frankly, I'd rather see a dog—to my knowledge, most of the time it's for dogs—contained in an area, rather than running free and a lot of times getting hit by vehicles or gone and in distress on its own from a different aspect in life.

Lastly, there's the enforcement aspect. Are conservation officers going to be given the opportunity to enforce this? If so, where is their direction going to come from?

Mr. Michael Prue: I rise to comment on the statements by the member from Dufferin-Caledon. I must admit, as a city boy who has spent all of one week of his life on a farm, and that only in the last couple of years, I listened intently to what she had to say. She gave me a perspective which, upon reading this bill, I had not had. She talked about the perspective from the agricultural community.

I listened to the member for Eglinton—Lawrence, who tried to dissuade me from thinking that they may or may not be involved, but I would be assured that if the act exists, people in all communities, not necessarily in urban ones, will be subject to the act.

I listened to what the member for Dufferin—Caledon had to say in terms of the reasonable search-and-seizure provisions of the act and the fact that "reasonable" had only been used on two occasions within the body of the act and how that may impact upon the Constitution.

Although I am generally in support of this bill, I do understand that it is going to have to be looked at very carefully by the Legislature. I would ask the government to be open to any amendments that may strengthen the bill or to make it perhaps lawyer-proof in terms of the actual provisions of the act so that when the bill becomes subject to third reading and is passed, we can assure ourselves and the people of Ontario that everything has been done properly in order to better protect animals and to safeguard the provisions that are there.

The last thing we will need is to have some of these provisions challenged in court. I commend the member for Dufferin—Caledon for her statement here today and her contribution to the debate.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Member for Dufferin—Caledon, you have two minutes to respond.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I would like to finish by talking more specifically about Dufferin—Caledon. In our riding, we have the Orangeville branch of the OSPCA. They have done an incredible job, but I think even they would acknowledge that direction and specific outcomes are the key to having a successful piece of legislation and moving forward. I would hope that we stop this practice that seems to be occurring in government where more regulations are hidden from view and hidden from input, and in fact put it in the bill so that we can have that public debate and public input.

It's critical that everyone in Ontario knows what the expectations are when we are talking about the protection of animals and the protection of society in general. I had some good comments from the executive director. She talked about how people who abuse animals have a tendency to transfer or change that abuse into spousal and family abuse.

It would never be my intent to say that Bill 50 shouldn't go forward. I would just like more of Bill 50 to be in Bill 50 and less of it to be in the regulations, which can be changed without public input and public consultation. If I could leave with that comment, I would appreciate it.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Further debate?

Mr. Michael Prue: I rise today to speak on one very narrow part of the bill, and that is

section 6. I have lived my whole life in the city, save and except for one year when I was a university student in Ottawa, so I think I know the city fairly well. One of the hallmarks of the city, one of the things that the people of Toronto hold very dear, is the Toronto Humane Society. As a mayor, as a councillor and as a person who was part of the whole municipal process for a great number of years, I can tell you that the most heated debates that we would have at East York council or the most heated debates that we would have at Toronto city council usually involved the subject of animals, usually involved the Toronto Humane Society and how the city or the staff was dealing with animals.

In East York we had our own pound. We collected animals, as every municipality would do. We collected stray animals, animals in distress, animals that had attacked humans or other animals. We would have some dog enforcement people who would go out and bring the dogs—usually dogs, but sometimes cats—back to the little shelter that we had in East York. It was a fairly small shelter; we only had two employees. They would bring them back, and we would hold them for a number of days.

Unfortunately, because it was not the Toronto Humane Society, if we could not locate the owners or if there were difficulties or if the animal was in distress, we would send them over to the city of York where they would be euthanized. We did not euthanize the animals in East York; we sent them to the city of York, because they had a facility and it was on a cost basis.

Whenever that happened and the animal's owner subsequently became aware that the animal was in East York, because the border would not be relatively well known to the dog or cat if they strayed from Toronto into East York—

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: Educate them.

Mr. Michael Prue: —Yes—we ended up with the animal. I remember on a couple of occasions where no one came forward to get a dog in these particular cases and the dog ended up being euthanized. You can imagine the sorrow and the anger of the family. Because the dog had been found in East York, we used our process. The family had gone down to the Toronto Humane Society and searched day after day, looking for their beloved dog, only to find out that our process allowed the animal to be euthanized. It was pretty sad.

I remember the debates around whether or not we should be doing that. The people who came to our council suggested we should adopt a policy similar to the city of Toronto to ensure that no dog, cat or household pet was euthanized, save and except in those circumstances where the animal was in distress.

I know there is huge support around for the Toronto Humane Society. I think that support exists not only because it is a venerable institution, having existed now for some 121 years, but also because they have made decisions in the past that the public tends to accept and to believe in. First of all is their decision not to euthanize pets when they come into their care. As has been stated, and I think correctly so, by former Minister Kwinter —I'm trying to remember his riding—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: York Centre.

Mr. Michael Prue: York Centre; thank you very much. As the member from York Centre stated, there is a difference between the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the humane society in terms of the numbers of animals that are euthanized. It is because the OSPCA is also an enforcement wing and not necessarily just an adoption agency, or in large part an adoption agency, that we see that dichotomy.

The people of Toronto believe in their humane society. They believe in the society's goal not to euthanize animals unless it's absolutely necessary. They also believe in the society's goal to educate. They go out, they have brochures, they have posters and they do whatever they can to educate people so that they will respect the pets they have, will understand how to properly care for them and will not leave them in distress, without either food or water. They do a tremendous job in terms of education.

They also do a tremendous job in terms of fundraising. Now, I know that the OSPCA does fundraising. They never seem to have enough money. Sitting as I do on the finance committee every year, as we travel the province, we have people from the OSPCA coming forward to talk not only about the bill that is before us today but also the fact that they do not have sufficient monies for inspectors, for training, for vehicles or for the care of animals. They make quite a compelling case each and every year to the finance committee, at least in the last six years that I have served on that committee, and they come, year in and year out, without fail, to talk about how they need more.

I don't remember the humane society asking for money all that much in the city of Toronto, although they would from time to time, because they have been extremely successful over their long period of time in collecting monies. They have been extremely successful in garnering public support, to donate when they need it, to build an institution of great care for animal welfare at River and Queen. And the public seems very content in terms of how they treat them, in terms of the donations and everything else. So it would be a shame for

section 6 to take the authority of the Toronto Humane Society to call itself the name that has been identified with Toronto for 121 years. I don't see the rationale behind this. If a government member can stand up and say why there is a rationale for this, it may make sense to me. I'm willing to listen. I'm willing to learn what the government rationale is. To date, I have not heard that. When this goes to committee, perhaps the parliamentary assistant or whoever else has carriage of the bill can explain why the government thinks

section 6 is necessary. It seems to me that the bill will survive without

section 6. It seems to me that the bill will do everything else it's supposed to do without

section 6.

I would be remiss if I did not talk about my own personal experience with the Toronto Humane Society. I grew up, as I've said so many times in this House before, in Regent Park. People were not allowed in those days to have dogs, although the odd person would have a cat in some of the apartments there—cats that always seemed to escape and run around in the place. But dogs were a rarity. As a boy growing up, I did not have a dog. I got my first dog from the Toronto Humane Society after I had purchased a house.

My wife, in her wisdom—and she is in most things very, very smart—said, "We need to have a dog." We went down to the Toronto Humane Society, looked around in the cages and came home with the dog whom I promptly named Artemis after the Greek goddess of the hunt. The reason I did that is because the dog was whining at the door. I didn't know much about dogs and I figured maybe the dog had to do its business. So I opened up the door and, to my shock and horror, I saw my dog, in four or five leaps and bounds, go to the end of the yard and chase a raccoon up the tree. Wow!

At that point, I'd only had the dog a few hours, and I decided that her name should be Artemis because she really was a dog that loved to do that kind of stuff. I have to tell you that over the years my garden and my backyard were almost always raccoon-free. The raccoons learned that there was one place you didn't go if Artemis was out, or, if Artemis might be at the door or might get out in some way, you don't go in that backyard.

My experience with the Humane Society and the adoption of a dog was a profound one. When I went there, it was a whole adoption procedure. I had to sit down with an official and I had to talk to them about why I wanted the dog, what I intended to do with the dog. Was I going to use the dog for any purpose? They asked me all kinds of things. Was the dog going to be a working dog? Was I going to try to use it to assist the blind? There was all kinds of stuff. It seemed to me—I just wanted to take a dog home.

At first, it was a little vexing, but I began to understand what they were doing: It was because they wanted to ensure the absolute welfare of that animal. They wanted to make sure that I wasn't some guy who was going to take it home and train it to fight. They wanted to make sure I wasn't going to cause it any abuse or harm, either from because I would be that way inclined or just from total neglect because I had no idea what to do. Of course, I had no idea what to do, but my wife had had a number of dogs in her life and she was able to show me in pretty short order all the things that needed to be done.

The Humane Society had my total support from that time on. Over the years, my wife and I would donate money to the Humane Society in appreciation for the wonderful dog that we had in our house. I will tell you that to this day, when people tell me they're thinking about getting a dog or getting a cat, I always tell them not to go out and buy one. I always tell them to go down to the Humane Society and to look in the cages of the animals that desperately need to be adopted and need to have a home.

If they don't find what they want on one weekend, I'm sure they'll find it the next weekend or the weekend after that; to just be vigilant to find exactly the type of animal that they want, and to not go out and purchase animals that have been produced in puppy mills. I know that you can get purebreds and all those things, but if you just want a dog or cat to love, to bring home to your house, I can think of no finer place to get it.

So I'm asking the members opposite to think about this, to think about an institution that is 121 years old, to think about the thousands upon thousands—and probably hundreds of thousands—of animals that have been adopted into good homes in Toronto over all of those years, and to allow them to keep their name, to allow them to keep doing what they have done so successfully and to remain a part of the fabric of the city of Toronto. That is not too much to ask, and I think what they are asking is not too much to ask.

So, members opposite, if you're listening, when this goes to committee, find some way to remove

section 6, to vote down

section 6, to amend

section 6. Do whatever is necessary in order that Toronto keeps an institution of which it is justifiably proud.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Questions and comments?

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: I just want to set the record straight on a couple of things. I do thank the member from Beaches—East York for his comments. I rise in support of Bill 50.

One of the things that I wanted to clarify was that the Ontario Veterinary Association, because I am a rural member, has lobbied me for four years to bring in specific language that this speaks to about mandatory reporting. This is something that they have wanted for many years, and quite frankly, they're very pleased that this is coming forward at this time.

The other thing that I wanted to clarify was that the removal of the word "Humane" will not be a result of this legislation.

Another thing that I wanted to clarify as well is that coming from a rural area, how we conduct ourselves with protecting the animals is much different than in an urban area. We rely solely on volunteers. The municipalities will get someone who will pick up the dogs, and there is licensing and that type of thing. But primarily, what we rely on in rural areas is volunteers.

The SPCA in one of my counties, Huron, holds a large event once a year, and it raises enough—about $45,000—that it's able to provide some types of services. So I can tell you, quite frankly, coming from a rural area, that we need pieces of legislation that clearly lays things out. This, in fact, does. It starts to establish a procedure and a process which we all know going forward.

So for me to be able to stand and support Bill 50, which a number of my constituents are saying they want to see come forward, certainly is my pleasure and my privilege. I just want to share with the Speaker what we call society animals.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I want to commend the member from Beaches—East York for his presentation. One of the things that I found out as he was speaking about his first dog, and the fact that the dog was let out of the house very impatiently to chase a raccoon—

Mr. Michael Prue: She wasn't let out for that.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: Well, that may be the case, but the reason I bring that up is that I did receive a concern expressed by some of the representatives from the farm community. They had concerns about the definition of the animals trained to fight. Obviously, this dog and a lot of farm dogs would be trained to protect livestock and to fight other predators. So does the bill exempt that, or would they then be called an animal that was trained for fighting purposes? I think that needs to be clarified.

The other thing I wanted to say was that there was a letter sent to the minister concerning this bill, and it was from the Ontario Farm Animal Council. That's an organization that represents some 45,000 farmers and farm-related agri-industries. There's some interesting parts in it. The letter states, first of all:

"Our concern is that Bill 50, which is now in second reading, is a set of very extensive and legally complex amendments that appear to be moving very quickly through the legislative process. These amendments would fundamentally change the powers and authority of the OSPCA as well as the legal obligations and requirements of all animal owners and handlers in Ontario."

It goes on to say:

"Due to the wide, sweeping changes proposed by the bill and the lack of consultation with the farming community"—and I think it's important, "lack of consultation"—"prior to its introduction, OFAC is strongly requesting the Ontario government take a more measured approach.

"We ask that Bill 50 be sent to a legislative committee for public hearings following second reading and that public hearings be held across Ontario, to allow farmers, anglers, hunters and other affected parties the opportunity to be heard and to ensure"—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Thank you. The member for Parkdale—High Park.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Just in reaction to the member from Huron—Bruce, I want to read

section 6. It says, "No corporation or other entity, other than the society or an affiliated society," meaning the OSPCA, "shall ... use the name 'humane society', 'society for the prevention of cruelty to animals'...." It's right in the act. This, in essence, is what the Toronto Humane Society is reacting to. It would take away their name, a name they've used for 121 years.

I second the member for Beaches—East York in asking the government side—and we haven't heard this from any of the speakers on the government side—to speak to

section 6, to explain why

section 6 is in an animal welfare bill and to explain the impact, of course, and why they feel that not only the Toronto Humane Society but another 234 societies that are concerned with the welfare of animals should be impacted by a so-called animal welfare bill, Bill 50. I've heard all sorts of things this morning from the government side and nothing about this, except for the comments from the member for Huron—Bruce, to whom I hold out the actual text of the bill. Sometimes we talk about bills and we don't actually read them. So, read it. It's right there in

section 6. What we're asking for on this side with one unified voice is that

section 6 be removed from Bill 50. It doesn't need to be there; it shouldn't be there; it needs to come out of there.

Just in the few remaining seconds, I want to say I was delighted to hear about the member for Beaches—East York's dog, Artemis. I think any of the amendments that come forward should have the names of animals attached to them, and Artemis is a very good one.

Let's hear from the government side some rationale for the existence of

section 6, and with that I'll cease.

Mr. Mike Colle: I was just reflecting on a funny story that shows that animal protection crosses party lines. I remember that I was walking near Bathurst and St. Clair one day and there was this beautiful brown pointer that was running loose in traffic. I went over and I grabbed him and took him home. Then I phoned the Toronto Humane Society and said, "Listen, I've got this beautiful brown pointer at my house." You know what happened? A day later the humane society came to get him, and he was actually the dog of former Tory cabinet minister Dianne Cunningham's daughter; it ended up in my house. Anyway, a little anecdote. It was a beautiful dog, too; I hope it's doing well.

I think the member for Beaches—East York made a good point. When you're purchasing or trying to get a pet for your family, do not get one from the newspaper ads; they're probably from pet mills. Do not go to these flea markets. You saw what happened recently this year: There were dogs at the flea market that had rabies. Even many of the pet stores have dogs that come from pet mills too. The best place to get a pet for your family is to go to one of the rescue societies, and there are rescue societies for almost every breed of animal. These are rescued greyhounds or huskies—they're all over the province. These kind people have these dogs available for adoption. That's where to get them.

In rural Ontario, the big problem for many of the OSPCAs is that there are these humongous puppy mills, and all of a sudden, overnight, there will be100 animals that have to be taken care by the OSPCA. They have enormous pressures because the illicit breeding that this bill would hopefully put a stop to—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Thank you. Member for Beaches—East York, you have two minutes to respond.

Mr. Michael Prue: I'd like to thank the members for Huron—Bruce, Oxford, Parkdale—High Park and Eglinton—Lawrence.

In the two minutes that I have, I first of all want to make sure the record is absolutely clear, to my colleague from Oxford. The dog was not let out to chase the raccoon; that was an unintended consequence. She was let out because I thought she needed to do her business, and her business was not what I thought. In any event, that is how she ended up getting her name. I just want the record to be clear: I wasn't trying to harm any raccoons in my backyard.

The member for Parkdale—High Park spoke about

section

Section 6 is very clear in its intent, and that's why I think it needs to be either taken out or amended in its entirety. There is no rational reason that I can think of that you would take away, by legislation, the name of a venerable institution like the Toronto Humane Society. It just is illogical to me that they would have to reinvent themselves with a new name after people of this city for generations have known them and known about them by that name.

The member for Eglinton—Lawrence makes a good point, and I thank him for his comments. Perhaps I should have said on my own that, when you get a dog or cat from the Toronto Humane Society and, I'm sure, all of the societies across Ontario, the animal is always spayed, so you don't have to worry about more animals being born. The animal always has all of its shots, is in remarkably good health and has been under veterinary care for at least a week or 10 days before the animal is put up for adoption. I think you're doing a whole lot for your family and for everyone else by adopting in a place like that rather than a flea market or a puppy mill.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Further debate?

Mr. John Yakabuski: It's my pleasure to join the debate this morning on Bill 50.

My friend from Beaches—East York talked about the release of the dog and the raccoon, and he mentioned the term "unintended consequences." That's exactly what we're dealing with here in this bill. There are a lot of possible unintended consequences that could happen as a result of this bill if it is not sent out to committee for hearings and input so that those people not only affected but those who have a broad knowledge of animals and animal rights issues in this province have a chance to have their input so that the legislation that we come up with at the end is, in fact, the best piece of legislation that we could have under the circumstances.

There are some real concerns about this bill, and they've been articulated by others, but I think it bears repeating by more members of this assembly. Hopefully it builds strength to the argument that the government has been perhaps nearsighted or short-sighted in introducing this legislation without dealing with some of these possible problems and unintended consequences so that we have the opportunity to let them know that this is what we are hearing out there, this is how we feel and this is how we believe the legislation could be improved.

There's no question that we have been without updated animal rights legislation in this province for far too long. We all agree. There is not a member of this assembly who would not state unequivocally that mistreatment of or cruelty to animals is not accepted anywhere in this province and should be not accepted anywhere in the world. We're all on the same page on that.

But we have some problems with some of the things that this bill speaks to, and everybody has spoken directly to

section 6. I know that my colleague from Parkdale—High Park talked about the 121-year history of the Toronto Humane Society. For all intents and purposes, as we understand this bill, if it is enacted as it is written today, that society will cease to exist. It could not call itself the Toronto Humane Society under this legislation. What is the reasoning behind that? We need to know those kinds of things, we need to hear from the government, and we need to hear the counter-arguments.

My colleague from Simcoe North said repeatedly in his leadoff speech that this bill very much requires that we take this to the people and get it out in a broad consultation throughout the province so that we can have input on those issues.

We talk about the concerns in agriculture and how this bill could impact agriculture and how people who don't understand agriculture might view the practices in agriculture as being unfair or inhumane or in fact being cruel to animals. One thing we do understand about agriculture is that even though these days it's pretty difficult, people are in agriculture for the purpose of running a profitable business. It would do them no good whatsoever not to treat their animals in the best possible way.

Those animals, if they're mistreated, are going to expire before the farmer has the opportunity to harvest them for gain, in which case that's a huge expense to the farmer, because they would have purchased and or raised this livestock for the purpose of eventually slaughtering it. That's what we do in agriculture; it's for food. If they mistreat them, the mortality rate is certainly going to go up. In fact, if they not only don't mistreat them but treat them very well with regard to inoculations and all of those kinds of things, the mortality rate goes down. That's all been proven.

The onus on the farmer to be very careful and very circumspect with regard to the treatment of his or her animals is well documented, common sense and good business practice. If you're going to be a successful business person, you're going to try to run that business under good business practices. There's no incentive for farmers to mistreat their animals, because it's going to hurt them—very much so. It's certainly going to hurt the animals, but it's going to hurt the farmer in the pocketbook, on the bottom line, and no farmer is going to be intentionally doing that.

I think we have to be wary of people who do not understand agriculture, who might see a practice on a farm and say, "Hey, that's cruelty. We need inspectors. We need the animal police, the OSPCA, to get in here and get in here quick and raid this farm," because there's a lack of information and a lack of understanding as to what actually happens in the agriculture business.

My colleague from Dufferin—Caledon raised an interesting issue under the standards of care. We need to be very defined about those standards of care, because for some people, they're different. I see some people here in Toronto walking their dogs in the wintertime and they have a coat on the dog, little booties and a toque. I don't even wear one myself, although I probably should; some people say there's been some severe freezing going on up there. But if I'm walking my dog—I don't have a dog here in Toronto; I wouldn't have a dog here in Toronto—and I don't have booties, a coat and a toque on the dog, am I mistreating that dog? In the view of some people, maybe I will be.

The member from Dufferin-Caledon talked about how some veterinarians actually believe that if you're not brushing your pet's teeth, whether it's a cat or a dog, you're not giving them the standards of care they should be entitled to.

Mr. Peter Kormos: For Pete's sake.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Mr. Kormos invokes his own name by saying "For Pete's sake." He's questioning the logic of that kind of thing, but that's actually how some people see these issues. So we need some real clarification on standards of care.

One of the problems we have here is with regard to warrantless entry. My friend from Dufferin-Caledon also cited the charter argument, in

section 8 of the charter, with regard to warrantless entry. We have the situation here where the advocate is also the police. That's something we should always be concerned about: when the advocate is also the one responsible for enforcement. With all due respect—and I am very proud of the work that the OSPCA does here in Ontario—is it acceptable that those who are the advocates are also the ones who decide when someone is in breach? Are they truly the most objective party to be making those kinds of assessments?

That's why we have various arms of the justice system, where those who enforce the law are not those who decide whether the person who was, in their opinion, guilty of an infraction is in fact guilty. We have to pass that on to another branch.

There's where I think there could be some separation that would give some people at least reason to believe that the advocates are not the ones who are also out there laying the charges or being the ones who say, "You are in breach of the act." Those are always things that I think people in a society such as ours have concerns about, if we give too much power to one group, because with that power comes great responsibility. Actually, it's a responsibility that most people don't want to have. They want to ensure that some who are less partial or less subjective are actually the group that enforces the law.

It was interesting, what my colleague from Oshawa mentioned about these dog-shock collars or this invisible fencing stuff, where people have a fence around the perimeter of their property because they don't want that pet to get into a dangerous situation. I live right on the highway, for example, so if I had a dog—and we don't have a dog; we had one for 17 years, but we don't have one now—if that dog didn't understand the parameters and the boundaries of the property, it would be very susceptible to getting run over by a car because we live right on Highway 60, where the traffic is going by.

So will some people view the fact that a dog has a collar around it so that when it gets close to that perimeter of the property, where they've got the invisible fencing installed, it receives a shock—will some people say that that's inhumane treatment of the animal? That's a fair question. We don't know what's going to happen with these regulations, and that's why we do need this bill to get out there to the people in the province, so that they can have their input on this very, very important issue.

My colleague from Oxford raised a very interesting scenario, where the dog may encounter another animal. Part of a farm dog's job is to protect the livestock; it's a working dog. Can the farmer or the operator of the farm be held responsible if that dog in fact does go out to challenge an intruder, another animal that's intruding onto the farm that may be a threat to some of the livestock that cannot defend themselves? It's a very interesting point.

I don't have the answers to those things. They're questions, they're not answers, and that's why it's extremely important that we get this bill out to hearings, not just here in Toronto. I think you're going to need some hearings in Toronto, because there are going to be some people who are understandably upset that what you're doing in this bill is saying that the Toronto Humane Society, which has been in business for 121 years, is now out of business. You're saying, "You're going to have to come up with a new name. You're not going to be able to call yourselves the Toronto Humane Society."

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: Wrong, wrong, wrong. That's wrong.

Mr. John Yakabuski: The Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services is in his seat saying, "Wrong, wrong." Well, tell us what the facts are; we'd love to hear them. But this is what the humane society is saying; this is what advocates of the humane society are saying. It's easy for the minister to sit in his seat and say, "That's wrong," but we're asking for those answers. If you can give comfort to those humane societies that this is in fact not the case—

Mr. Dave Levac: Just read Hansard.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Just his words in Hansard—I'm sorry, I say to the member from Brant. The minister's words in Hansard are no more comforting than his interjection saying, "Wrong." We need to back that with some legal opinions. Let's get some people who are actually willing to say from a legal perspective that this does not threaten the existence of the Toronto Humane Society in its present form, using the name that it goes by today. That's the kind of clarification we're looking for, I say to the member for Brant and to the minister, not an interjection from your seat saying, "Wrong, wrong." I've got interjections from my seat saying, "Right, right."

Mr. Robert Bailey: Right, right.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Yes. The member from Sarnia—Lambton says, "Right."

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: Wrong.

Mr. John Yakabuski: And the minister again says, "Wrong." Obviously, we have a debate. That's a very, very good justification for getting this bill—as the member from Simcoe North, our critic, says, "Let's get this out to the province.

Let's get this out to the people as soon as possible." As soon as we can finish with the second reading debate, have the people who are entrusted with writing the regulations get out to the various stakeholders, including the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, the Ontario Federation of Agriculture and all these groups, to get a proper reading on how other people in the province of Ontario see this piece of legislation. We have concerns, they have concerns, and I think it's in everybody's best interests to allay those concerns as much as possible by taking this bill to the people.

I want to touch lastly, if I have any time—Speaker, I know you're going to interrupt me at some point, I know I'm not going to get my full five minutes and 55 seconds left. I don't believe that. Am I? The Speaker is changing; he may not see the clock.

I do want to touch on the comments of the member from Dufferin—Caledon, who's very concerned about the

section 8 issue in the charter with regard to warrantless entry. In a society such as ours, when you grant any party, regardless of your motives—and as I say, I know that when the government brought in this bill, it was fully with good intentions because the legislation did in fact need to be updated after 90 years—as the member from Beaches—East York said, "What about the unintended consequences?" He was talking about something else, but the phrase applies. What about the unintended consequences?

When you attach and grant any party the rights to warrantless entry, boy, that crosses some pretty strong lines here with respect to people's rights and the right not to be unnecessarily detained—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Order. The time being 10:45, I'm going to have to adjourn this debate.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce some guests visiting Queen's Park today:

In the west gallery, on behalf of the member from Timmins—James Bay: Wayne Campbell, vice president of Truck Training Schools Association of Ontario;

On behalf of the leader of the third party: representatives from Campaign 2000, Toronto and York Region Labour Council and Canadian Labour Congress in the west public gallery and in the members' gallery as well;

On behalf of the member from York South—Weston: students from St. John the Evangelist Catholic School and Peter Scully from St. John the Evangelist school in both the east and the west galleries;

On behalf of page Emily Philp-Tsujiuchi: her mother, Ellen Philp, and her father, Wayne Tsujiuchi, in the east members' gallery; and

On behalf of page Bilaal Rajan: his father, Aman Rajan, his mother, Shamin Rajan, a friend, Justin Ford and his mother, Sharon Ford, in the west members' gallery.

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: My question is for the Premier. On Friday we learned that Ontario lost 15,000 well-paying manufacturing jobs in April. That brings the total from 204,000 to a little over 207,000 jobs lost. Our unemployment rate in this province remains above the national average.

I think that this can fairly be described as a crisis that demands the government's immediate attention—not a pesticide ban, if the Premier isn't familiar with the details, and not a fishing expedition to Italy.

When is the Premier going to buckle down and focus on this crisis? Some 207,000 Ontario families need his government's attention now.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: It's always a concern when any family is affected by job loss. We are working hard, and the member opposite knows that we're working hard, whether it's in our recent budget, whether we reduced and effectively eliminated capital taxes for our manufacturers and resource-based sectors, or the $1.5 billion in our recent budget, again, that was devoted to skills and post-secondary education opportunities for Ontarians.

But I would ask my colleague to keep some perspective on this. According to Stats Canada, there are 69,500 more jobs today in Ontario than there were in December 2007. In April, we created 60% of all new Canadian jobs right here in the province of Ontario. Of those new jobs, 91% are in the private sector. Yes, we are losing jobs, but the good news is that we keep creating more than we're losing.

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: I will get to those Stats Canada numbers later. But last month, a TD report was released that indicated that, in terms of displaced manufacturing workers who were lucky enough to find a job, they earned 25% less than they had received in the manufacturing sector. That represents about $10,000 a year.

We've heard this rhetoric from the Premier. There are many measures the Premier could take to address unemployment in this province, and I'm just going to give you one example: Lower the apprenticeship ratio. The Ontario Chamber of Commerce is calling for it. It's simple. There's no cost involved and no new program to eat up and be administered. It can be done immediately and, more importantly, it gets unemployed people working now. I ask the Premier: Why aren't you doing it?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to say directly to my colleague that we are taking a very close look at that recommendation on his part. It's not the kind of thing that the government can do on its own. There's an independent body that makes these decisions. But I think he's raising—and I give him credit on this score—a legitimate issue.

Let me just say this. It's interesting: The leader of the official opposition says that he's concerned about wages, but for eight years on their watch they froze the minimum wage in Ontario. You would think that if they had a concern for the plight of working people, they would have done something to lift that freeze and increase the minimum wage on a regular basis. We're proud of the fact that we've increased the minimum wage four times, and we're also proud of the fact that we continue to invest in educational and skills upgrading opportunities for all Ontario workers.

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: Under the Progressive Conservative watch, there were over a million new private sector jobs created in the province.

The Stats Canada figures the Premier referenced earlier indicate that the bulk of new jobs created in this province are in the public sector. Since taking office, you've added 102,000 more people to the provincial payroll. These are paid for by tax revenues from private sector jobs, of which there are fewer and fewer.

The Premier could choose to lead on this crisis. He could choose to cut business taxes now, he could choose to reduce red tape now, and he could choose to lower the apprenticeship ratio now, all of which the Canadian Federation of Independent Business is calling for.

Premier, why are you sticking to protecting unions, in that one example for sure? Why have you abandoned small business and unemployed workers and made them orphans of this government?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Again, I want to remind the leader of the official opposition that of the 69,500 more jobs found in Ontario today in comparison to December 2007, 91% of those are in the private sector.

It is true that we have, during the course of the past four and a half years, increased the number of people working in our public services. But I'll ask the member opposite who he feels we should not have hired. Does he feel that we should not have hired nurses; MRI technologists; long-term-care workers; home care workers; public health unit inspectors; water inspectors; meat inspectors; labour inspectors; teachers; vice-principals; librarians; guidance counsellors; autism therapists; children's aid society social workers; child care staff; teaching assistants; crown attorneys; police officers—I could go on and on. Which ones should we not have hired?

AGENCY SPENDING

Mr. Tim Hudak: A question to the Premier: Last Monday, the chair of one of your provincial government agencies hosted a high-end soiree aimed at federal members of Parliament at one of Ontario's swankiest bars and most expensive steakhouses. Premier, as a rule, do you think it is appropriate for a provincial crown agency to spend public funds to wine and dine lobbyists and federal MPs with whom they have no direct dealings?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I look forward to receiving a little bit more information in the supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Apparently the Premier has no rule whatsoever.

Last Monday, Steve Mahoney, the head of WSIB, threw a swanky soirée at the Martini Ranch at Hy's Steakhouse in Ottawa for federal members of Parliament and other Ottawa insiders and lobbyists. The Yellow Pages, www.ottawaplus.ca, describes Hy's as "A place to be: Hy's is where Ottawa's movers and shakers come to dine. Lunch is wall-to-wall power lunches with the power suits of Parliament Hill, and night time brings an atmosphere of luxury and celebration." Escargots begin at $11.95; cocktails can hit $20 plus.

Premier, what does sipping single-malt scotches with Chrétien-era cabinet minister Wayne Easter from Prince Edward Island have to do with helping injured workers in Ontario?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Labour.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I'm not aware of the issue that the member's discussing, but I would say this: When we came into office four and a half years ago, one of the first things we did was conduct an audit of the WSIB. We did that because, frankly, it was in a mess because of the management of that particular government. We have been able to bring sense back to the WSIB when it comes to fiscal management. The result has been better services for workers, and at a rate that businesses have found acceptable.

Mr. Tim Hudak: The minister says he doesn't know this occurred. Well, he'd better darn well get to the bottom of it and report back to the House right away. Mr. Mahoney, I remind him—a good friend of the minister's—is a former Liberal member of provincial Parliament—until 1995. He served as a Liberal member of Parliament from 1997 to 2004. He was a cabinet minister under the Chrétien government.

Those enjoying expensive drinks and high-end finger foods at the Martini Ranch with Mr. Mahoney included a former Liberal colleague, Speaker Milliken; a former Liberal cabinet minister, MP Judy Sgro; and of course, from Prince Edward Island, MP Wayne Easter.

The need to have a high-end reception with federal members is dubious at best; to have it at the famous and swanky Martini Ranch is just plain wrong. Clearly, Mr. Mahoney is trying to show off what a big man on campus he has become. Minister, will you report back to the House on the expenses and tell me what the repercussions for your friend Mr. Mahoney are going to be?

Hon. Brad Duguid: As I'm sure the member is aware, the WSIB is an arm's-length agency of this government. I know the member's aware of that. But I can tell you that all expenditures of the WSIB are reported back. Unlike in the days when his government was in office, the WSIB has to be accountable for everything they're doing. They'll be held accountable for everything they're doing, by us and by the public. It's something that we make sure is a priority, not only in the WSIB but all of our crown corporations.

Frankly, the work that we're doing in working with our crown corporations and fixing up the mess that we inherited from those guys has been a lot of work, but we're getting the job done. We're getting much better value for taxpayers' money than ever was done under the previous government.

MANUFACTURING JOBS

Mr. Howard Hampton: To the Premier: Statistics Canada's most recent jobs report shows that Ontario lost another 15,000 good manufacturing jobs in April. This brings the total number of manufacturing jobs lost to well over 200,000—one fifth of all the manufacturing jobs in the province. As the job losses mount, can the Premier tell us why the McGuinty government has failed to sustain good manufacturing jobs in Ontario, and failed those workers and their communities too?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: As I said earlier in response to a question from the leader of the official opposition, every time an Ontario family is affected by job loss, that is something we all feel and we wish we could do more to prevent. I know that the leader of the NDP understands that manufacturing job losses are something that is affecting North America as a whole.

But there are other sides to this economic picture as well. He made reference to the number of manufacturing job losses. I'd ask him to keep in mind that since 2003, we are now ahead by 467,200 net new jobs, and 80% of those are full-time positions. As he mentioned a moment ago as well, in terms of job growth in January, February, March and April of this year, we're ahead by 167,500 more jobs in comparison to December 2007.

Mr. Howard Hampton: The Premier says that manufacturing jobs are being lost everywhere. This is a headline from the Winnipeg Free Press this Saturday: "Manitoba an Oasis of Job Creation." More than half of the new jobs in Canada are being created in that province, many of them in manufacturing. It would seem that there's quite a difference between Ontario and our neighbour to the west.

Here's the reality for Ontario: In Windsor, good jobs are being replaced by low-paid jobs, which is why average family income in Windsor has dropped 10% under the McGuinty government. In Hamilton, good jobs are being replaced by low-paying jobs, which is why the average family income in Hamilton has dropped 4% under the McGuinty government. How many more good jobs have to be lost in Ontario before the McGuinty government takes this issue seriously and responds with something other than photo ops?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I note that last month both Alberta and BC lost manufacturing jobs. I also note that last month 60% of all new Canadian jobs were created right here in Ontario.

The leader of the NDP just refuses to recognize some of the efforts that we make, some of the investments that we continue to make when it comes to dealing with job losses in Ontario. He doesn't agree with our plan to put $190 million directly into the hands of our manufacturing sector so that it can begin to grow stronger. We did that by making our elimination of capital taxes retroactive to January of last year. He doesn't recognize the $1.5 billion we're putting into training for our workers.

We think that one of the most important things we can do in a global economy is to enhance the employability of our workers. While we can't guarantee them a job, we can guarantee enhanced employability, which is why we continue to create all kinds of new long-term training opportunities for Ontario workers.

Mr. Howard Hampton: The Premier can talk about job training. The reality is that only 10% of the workers who've lost their jobs are going to get job training under the McGuinty government, the reality is that Ontario's unemployment rate is now above the national average, and the reality is that a province like Manitoba now has an unemployment rate of 3.8%, the lowest in the country. Manitoba's doing some things right; Ontario's doing some things wrong.

What has Manitoba done? They have had a sustained policy of maintaining reasonable industrial hydro rates so manufacturers can operate there. They've brought in a manufacturing investment tax credit which is refundable, so even companies that aren't making a profit can continue to operate. When is the McGuinty government going to adopt some of these policies to sustain good manufacturing jobs, since they obviously work in Manitoba?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I think it is important to look at what's happening in other provinces, other states and other parts of the world to see how they're grappling with a US-induced global economic slowdown, but there are some limits to the comparisons. My friend talks about how it's important for us to have the same kinds of electricity policies as Manitoba. They're running on hydroelectric capacity. We have an entirely different foundation here when it comes to our generation in the province of Ontario.

But I can tell you, when I talk to my colleagues around the province, nobody else can say this: In the last four years we've put $4 billion more into our public schools. We have a learning-to-18 program now in Ontario, the first of its kind. We've put $6.2 billion into our post-secondary education system and skills training. In our recent budget we put $1.5 billion into skills training opportunities for our workers. We've also increased the minimum wage four times. Many of my colleagues look to these kinds of policies with a certain amount of admiration and perhaps even a little bit of envy.

MANUFACTURING JOBS

Mr. Howard Hampton: To the Premier: Today, Campaign 2000 and the Toronto District Labour Council released their report, which shows the harm done when good manufacturing jobs are destroyed. According to this report, the average manufacturing worker in Ontario who loses his or her job experiences a 25% decline in their income. For too many of these workers, that 25% decline means they end up below the poverty line.

Will the Premier admit that the McGuinty government's real economic story is to allow good manufacturing jobs to be lost and that, in fact, they're being replaced with low-paying jobs that don't provide adequate income or adequate job security for working families?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: We're all very concerned about what's happened to the economy and, in particular, the kinds of high-paying jobs that we're losing, but I don't think it's helpful to hearken back to some nostalgic view of the past and say that we can somehow recreate that. I think our responsibility is to make people hopeful so that they can embrace the future.

I think one of the most important things that we can do, and this informs our policy, is to enhance the employability of our workers. We continue to invest in our human resources, to develop our human capital. That's why we've established such a high priority on the investments that we make in education. That's why we've made learning-to-18 the law in Ontario. That's why we've got 100,000 more young people in our colleges and universities. We've got 50,000 more people in apprenticeships. We're graduating 10,000 more young people from our high schools every year—people who used to drop out.

That's why our recent budget speaks, through $1.5 billion, to the need to continue to invest in our people. If our people have the skills they need, I'm confident that they will do well in this new competitive economy.

Mr. Howard Hampton: Premier, you talk as if government doesn't have any tools to influence good jobs. This is the title of the Campaign 2000 and labour council report: The Role of Good Jobs in Ontario's Poverty Reduction Strategy. And they make some recommendations to ensure that we have better jobs and better-paying jobs: the reinstatement of card certification so that lower-paid workers, especially women and new Canadians, can form a union to fight for better-paying jobs, and the implementation of a Buy Ontario transit program of at least 50% Canadian content with final manufacture in Ontario.

These are two initiatives that the McGuinty government has already turned down. I've already suggested two initiatives that Manitoba has implemented which have resulted in more manufacturing jobs. Why won't the McGuinty government use these tools when good organizations are offering them as ideas to maintain good jobs?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Again, just to put this into some perspective, the Ontario average hourly wage rate is up 12.7% from 2003. Contrast that with the consumer price index, which has gone up 7.9% since 2003, which means there is some good news to be found here. I want to take the opportunity to commend Campaign 2000 for the work that they continue to do to put the poverty issue on the public agenda.

I want to thank them for their support as well for our Next Generation of Jobs Fund. It is really a remarkable investment on the part of government on behalf of the public. It is not something that is seen anywhere else in North America. It is designed specifically to promote the kinds of jobs and the green economy that Campaign 2000 and the labour community are now supporting.

Mr. Howard Hampton: I can't believe that the Premier would boast about the growing income gap as well, because what Campaign 2000 and other income studies show is that, yes, there are some people who are doing incredibly well in this economy. The banks and insurance companies love your reduction of the capital tax. That means they can take home hundreds, millions more in profits. But that doesn't help low-paid workers. That doesn't help manufacturing workers who have lost their jobs.

One of the other suggestions from Campaign 2000 and the labour council is to move towards green jobs. One of the other solutions New Democrats offered you was a refundable manufacturing tax credit that would reward green manufacturing jobs, but the McGuinty government has turned that down as well.

My question again: Why has the McGuinty government turned away from almost every positive, progresssive solution to maintain good manufacturing jobs in Ontario?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: It's not that we've turned away from every positive, progressive solution; it's just that the positive, progressive solutions that we continue to put forward are not supported by the NDP, including eliminating capital taxes. I think that's really important for our manufacturing sector. We did that retroactively to January 2007. Effective immediately, that puts $190 million into the hands of our manufacturers, who need the help right now. That's what we're doing. We continue to invest in our people.

Our strength fundamentally lies not in the stuff that we can pump out of the ground here in Ontario; it lies in those who walk on the ground—that's our people. So we continue to invest in their skills, in their education.

As I said a moment ago, we have 100,000 more young people in our colleges and universities; we have 50,000 more people in apprenticeships; 10,000 more young people graduating from high school instead of dropping out. We now have the highest rate of post-secondary education in the western world. I think that's worthy of celebration, but we're not going to stop there. We continue to make investments, and we look forward to counting on the support of my colleague opposite.

AGENCY SPENDING

Mr. Robert Bailey: My question is for the Minister of Labour. Minister, we on this side of the House were shocked—shocked—to learn that the WSIB, an agency designed to protect injured workers, would hire expensive lobbyists to send out invitations and host a party on behalf of the WSIB. Will the minister at this time tell us how much the WSIB paid these lobbyists to send out these invitations. How much does the WSIB spend on lobbying annually?

Hon. Brad Duguid: This is exactly the same as the first question. I guess the opposition is running out of material here today. I'm happy to respond. The WSIB is an arm's-length agency of this Legislature and of this government. The members know that full well. They report their expenses every year and they have to be accountable for what they do, unlike under the previous government. When we inherited the WSIB, it was in very difficult financial shape. We've done an audit on that. The WSIB has fixed its operations up, and the bottom line is, the service level is better.

In point of fact, we're accomplishing what we're trying to accomplish, and that's to reduce workplace injuries. That's what they should be talking about in this Legislature, Mr. Speaker—the progress we're making in reducing workplace injuries.

Mr. Robert Bailey: Obviously we didn't get the answer the first time, so that's why I had to come back and ask a second time.

Interjection: They haven't answered you yet.

Mr. Robert Bailey: Yes, they haven't answered me yet.

Hy's Steakhouse is one of the premier restaurants in Ottawa, so I'm told, and I can see why the WSIB would want to have a nice reception there. I'm just not sure that it is an appropriate use of funds that are provided by employers to take care of injured workers. Would the minister commit to report back by the end of the day on the cost of this rendezvous, and while he is at it, would the minister tell us if he agrees with the chair that this soiree was an appropriate use of injured workers' money?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Again, I'd say that the WSIB is an arm's-length agency of this government, and its expenses are published. They do have to be accountable for the money they spend—to us, to this Legislature and to the people of Ontario. This is the second-largest insurance company on the entire continent. I'm not aware of the issue that the member is talking about in terms of what was being done or the purposes behind it, but I thank the member for bringing it to my attention.

MINIMUM WAGE

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: My question is for the Premier. The new Campaign 2000 report found that median wages in the food and accommodation sectors were only about $9.50 an hour and that the average salary is only $15,000, well below the Statistics Canada low-income cut-off for a single person living in a large city. Why won't your government acknowledge that the current minimum wage of $8.75 an hour is below the poverty line and that it needs to be raised to $10.25 an hour now?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: This government has moved to raise the minimum wage four times and is moving in what I would call a prudent and balanced way to continue to raise the minimum wage between now and 2010. This, added to a number of investments we have made in infrastructure, innovation and skills training, is designed to help those people who are affected by the challenging times in our economy today.

We welcome advice from Campaign 2000 and others. This government and this Premier have appointed a cabinet committee to look at ways to reduce poverty here in Ontario. The minimum wage increases we've made to date are part of that strategy, and there's more to do. This government remains committed to bringing about greater fairness in Ontario's economy to help all the people share in the great bounty that is Ontario.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Consulting about poverty won't change poverty, but raising the minimum wage will change poverty lines.

It's not just Campaign 2000 and the NDP that recognizes that the minimum wage is too low—

Interjections.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: The United Nations has stated that current minimum wage and social assistance rates in Ontario contravene people's "right to an adequate standard of living." When will your government implement a minimum wage that doesn't violate the basic rights of Ontarians?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I do need to correct the record. In fact, we have already raised the minimum wage five times, not four times as I said. And we have done it in what I would call a prudent and responsible fashion, because we are working diligently to address the issues of poverty in our midst.

But let me tell you what that member has done recently. She voted against paying for 15,000 child care spaces. She voted against insulin pumps for children in Ontario. She voted against 120,000 grants for university and college students—120,000 she voted against. She voted against doubling support for children with autism, and she voted against the Ontario child benefit.

This government is answering the challenges in Ontario's economy. It's answering the challenges confronting people of more modest means. We invite the member opposite to—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

WORKPLACE SAFETY

Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn: My question today is also for the Minister of Labour. Various media reports in and around Ontario have outlined concerns with the operation and outcomes related to the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board and specifically its experience rating programs.

My community of Oakville and all of Ontario has a very strong and a very diverse economy, but I think we'd all agree that nothing is more important than all the working mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, returning home safely to their families each and every day.

Minister, I understand the WSIB is conducting a review of its experience rating program. Would the minister please update the House on the review?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I want to begin by thanking the member from Oakville for his work on this file and others with regard to helping and advocating for injured workers in Oakville and across this province.

The member is correct. The WSIB announced on March 10 that it would begin conducting a review of the experience rating program. The review will take place over the next little while. We expect them to report back by, at the latest, March 2009. The chair has indicated that if they could report back sooner than that, that would be even better, but at the outset, the worst-case scenario will be a report back in March 2009.

We acknowledge that the experience rating program can be improved. That's why we encouraged the WSIB to continue this review. We think it's very important that we use every tool at our disposal to get workplace injuries down across this province. We've made very significant progress so far, with a 20% reduction in workplace injuries.

Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn: I know that our government has made the health and safety of Ontario workers a major priority. As I said earlier, every day, hundreds of thousands of workers head off to work in a number of hazardous sectors. We want to see them return home safely every day, and I know that nothing is more important to all members here than workers' safety.

What my constituents want to see is the progress that is being made, not only to prevent workplace accidents, but also ensure that those who are injured receive the proper care. I would ask the minister to tell this House what this government and what the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board are doing currently for injured workers.

Hon. Brad Duguid: As I said before, our top priority when it comes to the WSIB is reducing workplace injuries across this province. Four years ago, this government set a goal of a 20% reduction in workplace injuries. Over the last four years, we've been able to achieve that. That's 50,000 workers who did not go home from work injured. That saves this economy about $5 billion in all. That's a pretty significant savings to the economy. We've done that through a combination of approaches.

We've done that through the "road to zero" initiative taken by the WSIB, which is working very hard, through promotion and awareness, to bring down workplace injuries. We've done that by hiring 200 additional occupational health and safety inspectors. These inspectors are going out to workplaces right across this province, working with employers, working on worksites to try to make them safer and healthier for our workers.

DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

Mr. Frank Klees: My question is to the Minister of Labour and it relates to a disturbing practice by the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board. It seems that businesses in this province are now being asked to hand over their customer lists in order for them to become registered with the agency. The minister must know that a customer list is one of the most valuable assets of any business in this province and has always been held in the strictest of confidence. Is the minister aware that this practice is taking place? Second, when was the practice initiated and how can it possibly be justified?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I appreciate the question from the member opposite. In answer to your question, no, I'm not aware that this is a practice of the WSIB, so I can't answer the question of when it was initially brought into place. But I'd be more than happy to contact the chair, Mr. Steve Mahoney, to find out what this particular program is about and whether in fact there's a need to ask for this information. I'd be more than happy to check with the WSIB further to determine if indeed this is a practice, and if it is a practice, why they would ask for that kind of information.

Mr. Frank Klees: I appreciate that the minister will follow up. I can tell the minister now that when my constituent asked the WSIB why they would possibly want that information, the response was because it helps them in auditing other businesses. I trust that the minister will agree that that's unconscionable.

I have a memo here from my client and it says this: "Will you please help to defend the right of an employer like myself to protect the right to keep my customer list confidential?" I think that we all want to ensure that the WSIB can do its work appropriately and that they can do their audits, but surely they won't blackmail businesses in this province into disclosing their customer lists in order to give them information that they should be able to find some other way. Will the minister undertake to protect the confidentiality of customer lists of businesses in this province?

Hon. Brad Duguid: As I said, this matter has just been brought to my attention today, and I'd be more than happy to check with the chair of the WSIB to determine what this practice is about and if indeed there is a reason for making this request, what it is for. That's certainly an undertaking that I'd