role="main" class="main-container container js-quickedit-main-content" id="main-content">

May 6, 2010

39th Parliament, 2nd Session

< Previous sitting day

Next sitting day >

Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2010-May-06 (PDF)

L028 - Thu 6 May 2010 / Jeu 6 mai 2010

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 6 May 2010 Jeudi 6 mai 2010

ORDERS OF THE DAY

POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION

STATUTE LAW

AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE

L’ENSEIGNEMENT POSTSECONDAIRE

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

PUBLIC SECTOR ACCOUNTABILITY

PUBLIC SECTOR ACCOUNTABILITY

TAXATION

TAXATION

SEVERANCE PAYMENTS

PUBLIC TRANSIT

AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY

GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS

PENSION REFORM

PUBLIC TRANSIT

PHARMACISTS

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES

MUNICIPALITIES

SPEECH AND LANGUAGE SERVICES

HEALTH PROMOTION

VISITORS

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

EDUCATION WEEK

LONDON PUBLIC LIBRARY

TAXATION

SCHOOL TRUSTEES

WALTER HACHBORN

HUCK FINN YOUTH FISHING DAY

SERVICES FOR THE HEARING-IMPAIRED

HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS

TAXATION

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE

AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CAPPING TOP PUBLIC SECTOR

SALARIES ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LE PLAFONNEMENT

DES HAUTS TRAITEMENTS

DU SECTEUR PUBLIC

PLANNING AMENDMENT ACT

(ENABLING MUNICIPALITIES

TO REQUIRE INCLUSIONARY HOUSING), 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR L’AMÉNAGEMENT DU TERRITOIRE

(INCLUSION DE LOGEMENTS

ABORDABLES PAR LES MUNICIPALITÉ

S) MOTIONS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS /

STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES /

SERVICES À L’ENFANCE

ET À LA FAMILLE

SOUTH ASIAN

AND ASIAN HERITAGE MONTH

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES

SOUTH ASIAN

AND ASIAN HERITAGE MONTH

SOUTH ASIAN

AND ASIAN HERITAGE MONTH

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES /

SERVICES À L’ENFANCE

ET À LA FAMILLE

PETITIONS

ONTARIO PHARMACISTS

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

WATER QUALITY

SPEECH AND LANGUAGE SERVICES

SCHOOL CLOSURES

MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS

TAXATION

REPLACEMENT WORKERS

ONTARIO PHARMACISTS

ONTARIO PHARMACISTS

MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS

REPLACEMENT WORKERS

WIND TURBINES

SPEECH AND LANGUAGE SERVICES

SERVICE CENTRES

PRIVATE MEMBERS’

PUBLIC BUSINESS

GASOLINE TAX FAIRNESS

FOR ALL ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’ÉQUITÉ POUR TOUS

À L’ÉGARD DE LA TAXE SUR L’ESSENCE

DEFIBRILLATOR ACCESS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’ACCÈS

AUX DÉFIBRILLATEURS

TRUTH IN GOVERNMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LA VÉRITÉ

AU SEIN DU GOUVERNEMENT

GASOLINE TAX FAIRNESS

FOR ALL ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’ÉQUITÉ POUR TOUS

À L’ÉGARD DE LA TAXE SUR L’ESSENCE

DEFIBRILLATOR ACCESS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’ACCÈS

AUX DÉFIBRILLATEURS

TRUTH IN GOVERNMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LA VÉRITÉ

AU SEIN DU GOUVERNEMENT

GASOLINE TAX FAIRNESS

FOR ALL ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’ÉQUITÉ POUR TOUS

À L’ÉGARD DE LA TAXE SUR L’ESSENCE

TRUTH IN GOVERNMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LA VÉRITÉ

AU SEIN DU GOUVERNEMENT

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord’s Prayer, followed by a moment of silence for personal thought and inner reflection.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION

STATUTE LAW

AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE

L’ENSEIGNEMENT POSTSECONDAIRE

Resuming the debate adjourned on May 5, 2010, on the motion for second reading of Bill 43,

An Act to amend the Post-secondary Education Choice and Excellence Act, 2000, the Private Career Colleges Act, 2005 and the Ontario College of Art & Design Act, 2002 / Projet de loi 43, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2000 favorisant le choix et l’excellence au niveau postsecondaire, la Loi de 2005 sur les collèges privés d’enseignement professionnel et la Loi de 2002 sur l’École d’art et de design de l’Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Further debate?

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: It’s certainly a pleasure for me today to speak to Bill 43, which is going to amend three other pieces of legislation. There are going to be amendments to the Post-secondary Education Choice and Excellence Act, 2000, the Private Career Colleges Act, 2005, and the Ontario College of Art & Design Act, 2002. This bill does move forward in order to make changes to those three pieces of legislation. Basically, it’s dealing with our post-secondary education system and the colleges and universities in the province of Ontario.

I’m certainly pleased to have in my own community two outstanding universities, the University of Waterloo and, of course, Wilfrid Laurier University. We have an outstanding college as well, Conestoga College, which has demonstrated its leadership in all of Canada, as have our universities time and time again.

I’m also pleased to say that we have many private colleges that do an outstanding job, as well, to ensure that our students get the post-secondary education that is going to be so critical if this province is to succeed and become an economic leader once again. Regrettably, at the current time we seem to be at the bottom, and we need to make sure that we listen to Rick Miner’s report, which indicates to us that our goal must be 70% of our young people moving toward a post-secondary education in the next number of years.

If we just take a look briefly at the first act, the Post-secondary Education Choice and Excellence Act, 2000, I see that that particular piece of legislation is intended to protect both our international and Ontario students, because the government has indicated that there’s going to be an increased focus on international students. That should be interesting to see.

I think we would certainly concur in one change that is going to be made now, and that is the change to the Ontario College of Art & Design Act, 2002. We certainly strongly support, and I think our critic, Jim Wilson, has already put on the record, that we very strongly agree with the changes that are being contemplated there and that it will indeed become a university. We have supported that for a long time, and we’re really pleased that that is going to happen. I understand that the NDP supports that as well, so that will be pretty simple to deal with. But there are certainly other concerns around this bill.

I think one of the biggest concerns around the bill is some of the changes that are being proposed. The government has actually had the power for the last number of years, you probably know, to make changes to the colleges. They also announced four years ago that they were going to review these acts, and they didn’t get to it. In the intervening time, the Ombudsman has certainly indicated his unhappiness.

In fact, he came out with a report that indicated, in talking about the private career colleges: “The Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities is responsible for overseeing over 400 private career colleges and protecting student consumers against unscrupulous and incompetent training providers.”

He refers to 2006 and the Private Career Colleges Act, 2005, coming into force. He refers to the fact that it did give the ministry “broader and more enhanced powers of enforcement, and students with greater protections including access to refunds and alternate training when colleges unexpectedly close their doors.” Then he went on to say, and was very critical of the government: “Despite the fact that it is illegal to operate a private career college that is not registered with the ministry, a considerable number of unregistered training facilities do exist in Ontario, presenting a risk to unwary consumers.

The ministry is cognizant of this reality. However, it does not vigorously pursue information about or enforcement against rogue operators.”

I guess the government could have taken action, they didn’t, and now they’ve come out with some changes. We know he was talking, at that time, about Bestech Academy, which was falsely marketing itself as a registered vocational college.

Let’s take a look at this piece of legislation. I just referred to the fact that the government already had the power to fine unscrupulous private colleges and unfortunately failed to enforce its own legislation. So we see here the government expanding those powers now to the private universities as well. I’ve referred to the fact that the Ombudsman did, on July 14, 2009, deliver this scathing report of the ministry’s handling of the Bestech Academy, which we all know was an illegal career college that the government allowed to operate for more than two years.

Interestingly enough, despite it being illegal, the government funded many of its programs, and then I understand that they hired its president to work for the ministry. It is that type of situation that the Ombudsman, looking at it, was then forced to say, “The ministry is inept. The situation is a disaster, in light of the way you’ve handled it. You had the legislative means to shut it down, and you didn’t.” Here we are with a bill that goes beyond private colleges today and seeks to expand its power into the private universities as well, even though they haven’t been able to enforce rules that were in place since 2006.

Let’s just take a look at that sector. There are currently, in the province today, 425 career colleges, 500 campuses and more than 27,684 students in Ontario pursuing degrees in 3,425 approved programs in more than 70 communities. When we talk about this bill expanding its jurisdiction beyond the private colleges to the private universities, what are some of the privately funded universities in Ontario? They include such places as Emmanuel Bible College, the Institute for Advanced Judaic Studies and the Maimonides Schools of Jewish Studies, to name but a few.

There are 29 other institutions that offer degree programs by ministerial consent. These private institutions include the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College, Cornell University, Niagara University and Trinity Western University. Public institutions are colleges permitted to grant degrees instead of diplomas, and they include Sheridan, Seneca, Niagara, Loyalist and other Ontario colleges. If you recall, the Post-secondary Education Choice and Excellence Act was brought in under the Harris government to allow for the expansion of some of the Ontario-based private universities that I have just referred to.

That act also did initiate some very strict regulation of those institutions. That’s how this all connects, one to the other.

Some of the changes that would occur, if passed: It would add to the Post-secondary Education Choice and Excellence Act

definitions for “educational institution,” “distance education” and “degree.” It would prohibit advertising of distance education programs not located in Ontario unless authorized to grant a degree in the province—that’s a good thing. It would allow the minister to refer applications for consent or renewal of consent for private institutions to either the Postsecondary Education Quality Assessment Board, as is the case now, or another quality assurance body or authority.

It would allow the minister to reject applications by private institutions without referral to the Postsecondary Education Quality Assessment Board. It would initiate tougher inspection requirements for the private universities, because they’re being included here now, that parallel those in the Private Career Colleges Act, 2005. It would increase some of the provincial offence penalties for private universities and career colleges.

So some of these changes certainly are going to be to the benefit of the students, but at the end of the day, the ministry has had powers. They could have used those powers; they didn’t. Obviously, they’re now bringing in a bill, Bill 43, to make sure that in the province of Ontario, we do provide a quality education, we can guarantee that we are doing so and we can also protect students from any unscrupulous operators that might be out there. Obviously, there are always those who would take a student’s money and not offer the quality program that we would expect.

I think I’m going to end there. Thank you.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions and comments?

Mr. John O’Toole: I’m very happy. The member from Kitchener–Waterloo has been a former minister and educator and I think has offered some very valid comments on a bill that purports to do something but under closer examination fails to actually do very much.

Some of the powers that exist on the investigatory authority are already there. The Ombudsman, in his scathing report on the lack of action by this government on this Ontario-open-for-business theory, really tells the story that they’re not using the tools and rules they have effective today.

I think the member from Kitchener–Waterloo, in her gentle reminders to the government to get on with business—she does that so cordially, if you will. There’s very little respect in Ontario right now for some of the current universities. If you actually look at the clippings this morning, there’s a report that I felt, when I was looking at the media—I just want to put this on the record that the career colleges are quite disappointed with this government’s lack of consultation. They really are. I know they have spoken to you, Mr. Speaker, because you’re obviously the contact for this particular group, and they are very disappointed with this government.

All I can say to you is this: The bill says that it’s going to make it easier for other colleges to start, but also to be enforced. It talks about virtual universities. If you look at the bill, it talks about virtual universities actually being outside of Ontario. I think they should work more closely with the existing colleges and enforce the existing rules, rather than waste the time of this House to do something that it says it’s doing but it’s not. The intent is there, so we’ll likely, at the end of the day, support it, and I think there will be more said this morning on this bill than the minister wants to hear.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Paul Miller: The Ombudsman, in his July 2009 report, referred to a “systemic failure” on the part of the government “to ensure that the requirements of the Private Career Colleges Act, 2005 are adequately enforced in order to protect the public interest in the quality and accountability of vocational training in this province.”

He also said, “I am concerned that unless there are some fundamental changes in how the ministry does its business, individuals seeking to better their lives through vocational training will still be at the mercy of ruthless and incompetent illegal operators.”

We hope that things have changed and we hope that this bill will facilitate the kinds of changes that the Ombudsman called for. However, we take issue with the fact that, while doing a little bit of good here, you decided to present a view of the current state of post-secondary education in the province that requires a real reality check.

The minister claimed in his remarks that “Ontario’s post-secondary education system is recognized for the quality of programs offered by our colleges and universities. We are a leader in quality assurance for our post-secondary education system. This is a reputation we value highly and aim to protect.”

If that’s the case, why are there unaccredited colleges around here that are giving bogus degrees? People are spending a year or two of their lives trying to get these degrees and they go look for a job and the degree isn’t worth the paper it’s written on; it doesn’t hold water, and they end up having wasted two years of their lives—pretty bad.

There are other things: Will more international students result in reductions in tuition for Ontario and Canadian students? After we reach a high enough threshold of international students, will class sizes somehow start to decrease? Will the increased fees and other monies from international students be used to hire more full-time faculty? I’m not sure about this. Will students’ debt loads be lessened by the greater presence of international students? I doubt it. Will international students somehow eliminate the estimated $1.7 billion required to address deferred maintenance across Ontario? I doubt it.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Ted McMeekin: I’m always delighted to stand in my place and respond to the balanced offerings from the honourable member from Kitchener–Waterloo, who, given her vast experience, understands so many of the complexities. Most importantly, I think the honourable member opposite understands that governments, and policies related to specific options that governments have, aren’t always perfect; that we have an Ombudsman and other mechanisms in place to occasionally draw to the attention of the government areas where some improvements can be made.

We take the Ombudsman’s comments very seriously. We also continue to take very seriously the issues of quality in our education system and the need to protect students. It’s for the very reasons that the member from Hamilton East articulated with respect to the need for fundamental changes and his allegations of systemic failures that, in part, this bill is coming forward. We want to strengthen an already good system and make it even better, and to do that we need to be very clear about

definitions. We need to be very sharp about what we measure. This bill takes us some considerable distance, I say respectfully to members of this Legislative Assembly, in that direction. That, I think, has to be good for the people of Ontario, particularly the students who are investing their time, their energy and their talent in trying to acquire the skills to build an even stronger Ontario.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Steve Clark: I’m pleased to respond to my colleague’s comments. Certainly she’s an extremely experienced member of this Legislature, as a former Minister of Education. I’m pleased to say that when I attended university in Waterloo, I certainly enjoyed it. I said to the member just prior to her speech this morning that I hope to visit her constituency soon to relive and rekindle some old acquaintances.

In regard to her comments about Bill 43,

An Act to amend the Post-secondary Choice and Excellence Act, the Private Career Colleges Act, 2005 and the Ontario College of Art & Design Act, 2002, it’s interesting that the previous speaker talked about the Ombudsman’s report. I had the opportunity to look at this report and, quite frankly, I was shocked that this government hasn’t brought forward changes prior to this, given some of the history.

When I look at some of the issues: that the government already has the power to fine private colleges that they feel deserve it; the fact that they failed to enforce some of their own legislation; the fact that the Ombudsman’s report back in July 2009 was so critical of the government; the fact that they were looking for this government to bring forward some changes—you know, going through the pages of this Too Cool for School report, it’s shocking to me, the changes that should have come forward by this government sooner.

The fact that they knew that changes needed to be made and they weren’t is, again, surprising to me.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): The honourable member for Kitchener–Waterloo has up to two minutes for her response.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I do appreciate the contributions that have been made by the member for Durham, the member for Hamilton East–Stoney Creek, the member for Leeds–Grenville and of course the member for Ancaster–Dundas–Flamborough–Westdale. I tell you, it takes almost a minute to read through the names of some of the ridings in the province of Ontario here. But I do appreciate the contribution.

I also want to take this opportunity today to congratulate our critic for post-secondary education, Mr. Wilson. I think he’s done an outstanding job in bringing forward information about this bill, Bill 43.

Mr. John Yakabuski: You won’t get interrupted by the Speaker on this one.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: You know what? It’s always a pleasure to get his advice on legislation that the government is bringing forward.

I think you’ve probably heard that the one issue we are most concerned about is the fact that the government did have the power to deal with these private colleges and chose not to act. We now have in place tougher legislation, supposedly. Hopefully, this will enable the government to move forward and ensure that all of the students in the province of Ontario are protected. Of course, as well, we’ve seen the expansion of this power to private universities.

At the end of the day, we’ll continue to review the bill. We’ll continue, obviously, under the leadership of our critic, to hear from those who are going to be impacted by the legislation, because our job truly is to listen to the people in the province of Ontario, bring forward their concerns and make the bill the best it can be.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mr. Jeff Leal: It’s a delight for me to spend a moment this morning on the proposed Post-secondary Education Statute Law Amendment Act, 2010. I’ve always been very pleased: In my riding of Peterborough, I happen to have two post-secondary institutions. Trent University, which I had the opportunity to graduate from a number of years ago, was founded by a good friend of mine, Tom Symons. He was the founding president of Trent University and certainly did yeoman’s service in a variety of areas for the government of Ontario. When Mr.

Davis was Premier, Tom Symons led a royal commission called To Know Ourselves, about the need to teach history in elementary and secondary schools in the province of Ontario. He continues to serve in several capacities in terms of his role as a leading educator not only in Ontario but, indeed, throughout Canada.

The second post-secondary institution I have in my community is Fleming College. Fleming College, of course, was founded by David Sutherland, who himself had a distinguished academic career: Ryerson here in Toronto, and then he came to Peterborough to found Fleming College. His wife, Sylvia, as many people will know, was the longest-serving mayor of the city of Peterborough. I had the opportunity to serve with her. I’m also pleased that in terms of Fleming College, they’re involved now in training people in the green technology area.

I must make reference, this morning: “A new study says Canadian governments can expect an economic return from seed money in green technology, just not as much as from traditional investments.

“The Conference Board of Canada study shows that investments in green technology under government programs in Canada will total $11.8 billion in the next four years.

“The think tank says Ontario will gain the most economically from its investments because it has the manufacturing base for in-province development of new technologies.” That’s certainly good news. From time to time, all members of the House quote third party endorsements, so that’s a third party endorsement from the Conference Board of Canada.

Also, we note today that Linamar, which is an outstanding manufacturer in Guelph, Ontario, has just inked a deal with a European firm to manufacture green technology in Guelph, Ontario, thereby helping to revitalize Ontario’s manufacturing sector. I think those are key developments that we need to chat about.

The proposed PSEC amendments will clarify the application of the act by defining certain terms, such as “degree,” “educational institution” and “distance education”; allow the government to impose financial penalties and impose restraining and compliance orders against unauthorized degree-granting institutions; and streamline the application process for consent to offer a degree program by making it more cost-effective and less time-consuming. Those are very important amendments. I’ve had the experience—indeed, Mr. Speaker, you probably have constituents in your riding who have gone to private career colleges and not had the best experience in the world.

This business of providing unauthorized degrees, in terms of credibility and transparency, is a very serious problem. I think we’ve all had the experience of people who talk about mail-order Ph.D.s, where they identify an institution—it could be anywhere throughout the world—mail in $25 and they mail you back a Ph.D., and then after your name you can have Ph.D.—Dr. Jim Wilson, Ph.D.—because you’ve attained one of those mail-order Ph.D.s but haven’t really fulfilled the qualifications for it. I think that can be a very serious problem indeed.

Mr. Michael A. Brown: I think he has several, actually.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): That’s how I got into cabinet.

Mr. Jeff Leal: Mr. Speaker, I’m glad you said that. You indicated that you got a couple of those mail-order Ph.D.s and got into cabinet. Good for you. I think that’s very important.

Mr. Michael A. Brown: Good plan.

Mr. Jeff Leal: A very good plan. I think that maybe some of my colleagues will be sending out for mail-order Ph.D.s.

Mr. John O’Toole: I think a couple of them already have them.

Mr. Jeff Leal: My friend from Durham thinks that several already have those Ph.D.s. I’ll check their websites to see how many have those Ph.D.s.

Getting back to the more serious side of the debate, it certainly has been a problem. As I said, I’m sure all of us have had constituents come in who have not had the best experiences with private career colleges. One of the things that is particularly disappointing is that they spend a considerable amount of money, enrol with private career colleges, and the end product is not satisfactory at all. In fact, it leaves them in a very disadvantaged position after going through that. So we think this is a very important bill from that perspective.

I guess I could wander a bit and talk about my private member’s bill, but we’ll have that debate about pensions in Ontario next Thursday. I’m sure it will be a riveting debate that day.

Mr. Michael A. Brown: I’m very supportive.

Mr. Jeff Leal: The member from Algoma–Manitoulin, I think, is coming to the forefront, and I look forward to perhaps hearing his remarks next Thursday as we move that bill forward.

Mr. Michael A. Brown: It’s an important bill.

Mr. Jeff Leal: It is an important bill.

I think the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, Minister Milloy, and the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, Minister Hoskins, are certainly the drivers behind this bill. Minister Milloy has heard from a wide variety of people about unscrupulous and unauthorized education organizations, and we want to make sure that this bill prevents these unscrupulous and unauthorized educational organizations from taking advantage of international and Ontario students.

I think governments of all political stripes in Ontario have always had the view that Ontario is open for new Canadians to come here, but we want to guarantee that that is a very positive experience. Over the years, governments of all political stripes, I believe, have been building to make sure that we welcome new Canadians to our country and that their experience is one that they never regret making the decision to come to Ontario and, indeed, to Canada.

But many of them arrive here, and unfortunately, we have predators out there who want to take advantage of new Canadians coming in and, like the old snake oil salesmen, often try to sell them a bill of goods very quickly. That can be a very disheartening experience for newcomers, whether they come to Brockville, Ontario, or one of my favourite communities in Leeds–Grenville, Athens, which I had the opportunity to visit a number of years ago with Mr. Runciman.

Mr. Steve Clark: I was there.

Mr. Jeff Leal: The member was there that night. Mr. Runciman invited me down. I was PA to the Minister of the Environment. We did a round table on the Clean Water Act. Mr. Runciman, as always, was very hospitable. The current member was there that evening and we had a great round table; a lot of good questions were discussed, a good exchange. I took back some of the ideas and went out and had a chance to have dinner with some of the people that were there at that evening. I always remember the good folks of Athens and I hope they are doing well, I ask the member from Leeds–Grenville.

These amendments will assure students that post-secondary programs offered here in Ontario are of the highest quality and meet our standards of excellence. There’s no doubt that one of the great draws to come to Ontario and Canada today is the strength of our post-secondary institutions; some of them are second to none. I know that many of my friends and associates had an opportunity to go to Queen’s, the University of Toronto and the University of Western Ontario.

In fact, one of Peterborough’s most distinguished citizens—he wasn’t born in Peterborough but he spent his formative years in Peterborough—is Jim Balsillie, who, with his partner, Mike Lazaridis, of course, is co-CEO of the internationally known company Research in Motion.

As I said, Jim grew up in Peterborough. He spent his formative years in Peterborough and still has family in Peterborough. We’re very pleased that he never forgot his roots. A number of years ago, when we built the new Y, he gave in excess of half a million dollars to build that new Y in Peterborough. We’re very, very proud of that.

His experience, and one that he shares on a continuous basis, is the need to invest and to make sure that we have the highest standards in Ontario universities. He went to the University of Waterloo and spent a lot of time, of course, on the research side through the co-op program, and he came up with this idea, which has made Ontario and indeed, Canada, a leader in that particular field. We’re very proud because he knows that continuous investment in our post-secondary sector is going to pay dividends for us economically down the road.

Again, this legislation is key as part of our Open Ontario concept. These amendments will support our Open Ontario plan to create new opportunities for jobs and growth, which includes raising the number of Ontarians with a post-secondary education to some 70%.

We know that there is a fundamental shift in the economy in Ontario. If you look at the auto industry, for a good example, three or four years ago, 17 million new units were sold in the North American market. Now that is down to the neighbourhood of 10 to 11 million units per year of new car sales in North America. That has led to a fundamental restructuring of the auto industry in Ontario.

Also, we have to look at the opportunities that may present themselves. I know that from my riding of Peterborough we have a lot of employees who work with General Motors, particularly in the car plant on the Impala line, and the investments and the fundamental change in terms of the skill level with those employees is something that need to be done in order to retain that competitive position. That can only be done through our work with community colleges and, indeed, universities as part of our Open Ontario plan.

We can see that there will be an organizational review of private institutions and private colleges in Ontario that will be looking at their administrative capacity, ethical conduct, student protection, academic freedom and integrity. That’s very important, whether it’s a new Canadian or somebody who lives in any of our communities such as Espanola or, indeed, Elliot Lake.

If they decide to take advantage of going to a private career college, they want to make sure that they have the confidence that if they enrol in a program, at the end of the day the degree they may receive by going into that program, their credentials or the specifics of the program are there; that they will know that that degree or the credentials they receive have some standing in the broader community when they go out to seek a job. We think that is very important.

Also, we can provide the opportunity for many international students to come to Ontario. This bill will facilitate that. Certainly in my case, Trent University, in Peterborough, has been very successful in attracting international students for a variety of programs. In fact, we need to link with Canadian embassies and Canadian consular offices throughout the world to attract individuals to come to our nation, because they potentially provide the kind of skills that we’re going to require, as we have a declining workforce. It is a very aging workforce that we’re challenged with now in Ontario. Indeed, the first big bulge of the baby boomers will start to retire this year.

When I talk to my friends at GE in Peterborough—by the way, last Thursday, they announced the biggest order in their history, $30 million, to provide 18 large motors for a steel company in China. It’s the first time that GE has gotten into the Chinese market, and they did so because of the engineering and technical people that they have in Peterborough. So it’s going to be engineered, designed, manufactured and shipped from Peterborough into the Chinese market—again, part of our government’s emphasis on skills training to make sure that we can be very competitive in that market.

Indeed, we’ve had a wonderful exchange program. Engineers from China have been working at the Peterborough operation to assist us, to make sure that we can get those deals and provide Canadian technology around the world, ensuring growth particularly in our hard-hit manufacturing sector.

This is a bill that makes changes to the Post-secondary Education Choice and Excellence Act, 2000, the Private Career Colleges Act, 2005 and the Ontario College of Art & Design Act, 2002.

One of our distinguished members, Mr. Kwinter—I’ll just get his riding here—from York Centre, I believe is a graduate of the Ontario College of Art & Design. I believe he may have spent a period of time on the board. Didn’t he, Mr. Brown?

Mr. Michael A. Brown: He did. Very effective.

Mr. Jeff Leal: He has been a leader. Of course, the Kwinter family has certainly been amongst Ontario’s great entrepreneurs. They were involved in the food processing industry for many, many years. Mr. Kwinter himself, the member from York Centre, over the years has been involved in a number of financial initiatives here in Ontario and around the world.

He is a classic example of someone who went to the Ontario College of Art & Design, used that formal education and parlayed that into a very successful and innovative career. Indeed, just this past week we honoured him. He now has served 25 years in this very august assembly. He is a man of distinguished integrity who continues to make a contribution each and every day.

I must also say that the previous government did a pretty good job when they brought their amendments into the Post-secondary Education Choice and Excellence Act in 2002. I always like to give credit where credit is due. Those changes are also very important as we go forward.

It also is very important, through the Open Ontario brand, that we enhance the quality of Ontario’s post-secondary education brand, something that, once we take this throughout the rest of Canada and indeed throughout the world, is going to be very attractive for people who make their decision to come to Ontario and indeed Canada.

Also, through these changes, the Postsecondary Education Quality Assessment Board, when it’s implemented, will provide rigorous quality control to protect Ontario students from degree mills. I spent a bit of time talking about those mail-order Ph.D.s that have been obtained in the past. We also think that’s a very important thing to do.

The amendments will also clarify the application of the act by defining certain terms, such as “degree,” “educational institution” and “distance education,” something that all members of the House certainly will be very supportive of. It will allow the government to impose financial penalties and restraining and compliance orders against unauthorized degree-granting organizations, again protecting the education experience that one may go through. It will also streamline the application process for consent to offer a degree program by making it more cost-effective and less time-consuming.

I think it’s in all of our interests to make sure that this particular act gets approved. I look forward to further debate. If I had unanimous consent, I could probably go on for a couple more hours, but they may not want that to happen at this particular time. Thank you so much for my opportunity today.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): I heard a no.

Questions and comments?

Mr. John O’Toole: I would also like to say that I congratulate the very harmonious remarks made by the member from Peterborough. I know he works hard to represent General Electric and General Motors, which is a good idea.

The things he’s saying—he did give some credit, in fairness, to the changes made in 2002. I think this kind of builds on those changes. But I think the most important remark here is that he referred many times to Open Ontario. What Open Ontario is about—and I’m going to read from the speech, so I’m giving some credit, but I want to be a bit critical here; it’s our job. “We will aggressively”—this is the Premier I’m reading here—“promote Ontario’s post-secondary schools abroad and increase international enrolment by 50%.” There’s actually going to be a lineup for getting spaces in our universities and colleges. There’s a bit of a jam coming up here.

I’d like to point out, as he has done, that one of the good parts is that the other changes to post-secondary announced Monday would lead to it being easier for Ph.D. students to get permanent resident status after they finish a degree. Currently, a Ph.D. student has to have a permanent job offer. This change would, for instance, help one of the candidates here from Azerbaijan, who is at the U of T department of laboratory medicine and pathobiology; this will help her. There’s testimony in the newspaper that I read here.

So there are some very good aspects to it, but there are things within the bill that are already allowed to be done. I think the next speakers will probably be talking about the Ombudsman’s report, Too Cool for School, and some of the things they aren’t doing. It was a bit of a scathing criticism of Mr. Milloy and the McGuinty government.

You can find good in all things if you look hard enough.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

It’s mainly the parts that are presently troublesome and that are not in the bill that I’m worried about, things such as: tuition fees for our students are the very highest in the country; when we look at class sizes, the class sizes in our colleges and universities have increased tremendously and, here again, are some of the highest in the country; when we look at the tenured faculty versus the faculty that just teach one class, we are short about 5,000 professors in our universities; things like student debt and the number of students who have to find employment while studying, as well as having difficulty finding employment after their studies.

These are things that the government could and should act on, not to mention the funding to our colleges and universities. My colleague Rosario Marchese certainly makes a point when he says we are number 10.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Michael A. Brown: I’m delighted to comment on the dissertation by my good friend the member from Peterborough. I too share the view that if he’d had a little bit more time to elaborate on this, it would have been a good thing for this House in the enlightenment of the people of Ontario.

I just want to speak a little bit about the quality of our post-secondary institutions. We have universities that are world-renowned, that are providing service and education to our students and that are first-class. I’m the father of a graduate of Queen’s, a graduate of Laurier, a graduate of Laurentian and a graduate of Algoma, with some other diplomas and degrees within that context. But I understand, as most members understand, that they don’t do everything. We have fine community colleges that provide good services. But there is a niche market. There are markets that we do not serve, and those would be in the private career colleges and the vocational side of things.

I was the chair of the cabinet committee on education when we dealt with this issue back in 2005. I was very proud of the bill that we put forward there, which was passed by this House, that regulated those colleges. But as with everything, there’s an evolution, and some people out there who want to take advantage of our students. What this bill does is provide the opportunity to further the enforcement on those in that business who wish to take advantage of the students. While most provide great service to the people of Ontario, there are those bad actors. This provides the mechanism to further police that situation.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Steve Clark: I’m pleased to provide some comments in response to the member for Peterborough. He mentioned a community in my riding: Athens. I remember quite vividly the meeting that he spoke of earlier, where he was the parliamentary assistant and came. It was a packed house at the Joshua Bates Centre in Athens. At the time, there was a lot of concern with the government on their source water protection legislation. We had a lot of people there, some different groups. I think the landowners were there that night as well to see the parliamentary assistant.

He really calmed the waters that night when he personally guaranteed the crowd that conservation authorities wouldn’t go on people’s property without the landowner’s or the property owner’s permission. He handled himself extremely well that night in Athens. I know the folks were glad that he was there and spoke and gave those assurances. I’m glad that he mentioned the good folks of Athens this morning.

When I listened to his comments about this bill—and there are a number of recommendations here—I was a little disappointed that there was one

section in the

preamble, subsection 2(3), entitled, “Same, diploma, etc.” It reads, “For greater certainty, a diploma, certificate, document or other thing referred to in paragraph 2 of subsection (2) does not include a certificate, licence, registration or other form of official recognition that attests to the person being qualified to practise a trade or occupation,” and it goes on. I guess the question that I had was, what’s the motive of this? Is this going to try to put out of business many trade schools? I just don’t understand who’s benefiting by this subsection, so at some point I’d like the member to address that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): The honourable member for Peterborough has two minutes for his response.

Mr. Jeff Leal: I truly appreciate, this morning—I always find that on Thursday mornings the comments are a little more genial. I thank the members from Leeds–Grenville, Nickel Belt, Durham and my good friend and colleague from Algoma–Manitoulin. I must say to the member from Nickel Belt that a number of years ago I had the opportunity to visit Garson, Ontario, just outside of Sudbury, and had a very warm reception in that small community, just as I had the opportunity a number of years ago when I was in beautiful Athens, Ontario, in the riding of Leeds–Grenville.

It’s interesting: I remember a number of years ago—people will recall the Toronto School of Business. The Toronto School of Business, I think, had associate operations in many communities throughout Ontario. They, in fact, went out of business. There was always great concern for people who got degrees or certificates of qualification from the Toronto School of Business. After they ceased operation, how much validity would those degrees or, indeed, those certificates of qualification have when one was going into the workforce with these as part of one’s resumé?

This bill that we are proposing will do a lot to improve the status of those quasi-degrees or certificates of qualification that will be issued by some of these private career colleges.

We’re just in the initial stages of this debate. We will want to hear members from all sides of the House and, indeed, go to committee and look at amendments to make this bill the best it can be, bearing in mind that this is not a particularly partisan issue.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mrs. Julia Munro: I’m pleased to have a few minutes to discuss Bill 43.

I think that one of the things we need to keep in mind as we have this conversation about private career colleges is the question of balance. It’s interesting to note that private career colleges have existed in this province for at least 100 years. It’s important to understand that with that kind of history, clearly, it’s a process that has provided people with a very important option. I think the benefits of the private career college system can be boiled down to two particular elements. One is the scope, and the other is the flexibility.

Why would someone want to be involved in the process of a private career college? Well, I think scope is one of those issues, the fact that the career college can identify a niche market, an area which isn’t served either geographically or more broadly, to a certain segment of the population. I think back on things like helicopter school: again, a very narrow and, I might add, a very expensive process, but nonetheless one for which there were jobs and for which there was a need. So scope is an important part of the career college’s ability to find that niche and be able to provide service.

It can also, then, concentrate on a particular skill or skill set that, in the context of the public system, kind of gets lost in having many other programs and options for students. That then leads into the whole flexibility element, because very often, the private career colleges are able to compress their courses. They’re able to offer them at different times of the day or the evening. That, again, allows for people who are looking for the development and the accreditation of a particular skill set to fit that into their own personal lives.

Very often, those people who are going to these private career colleges are people who have already graduated from the public system to whatever level and now need something that’s very, very concentrated and specific. The point here is that they’re also looking at matching the career colleges in the position of being able to match the training with job opportunities.

In private conversations I’ve had with those who offer private-college training, they tell me that in their particular niche, students are hired before they have finished the course. Another one says that industry representatives come to interview students to get, if you like, first-draft choice on the students who are there and what those students are doing that matches the industry’s needs.

There’s certainly a market for these institutions, but there’s also a need for oversight. In my riding a few years ago, parents expressed great concern over a particular career college that was operating in my riding. They came to me. They had been to the ministry. They didn’t feel that the ministry had provided the kind of oversight that was required. In this particular case, the concern was the failure rate. When a student failed, as their child had, then for an additional fee they could write again. They were concerned when they realized that this seemed to be an element that simply allowed for greater fees to be applied.

Clearly, there’s a very strong case for the need for oversight. People need to be assured of the financial security of the business. They need to feel assured of the standards and the training, the presentation of appropriate curriculum. They need to know that there’s public confidence in the business. They need to know that there’s quality assurance and there are employment opportunities that come as a result of completing a course.

I would be the last person who would not support a recognition of the importance of regulation. Public confidence, a level playing field for people in the field of the private career colleges—and with that kind of oversight comes the confidence that legitimate business needs that kind of support. Finally, of course, people need to know that they are getting what they paid for, that they’re going to get what they desire out of going.

How good is the system? I’ve just explained my view about how important the need for oversight is. But when you actually look at something like the Ombudsman’s report of July 2009, a little less than a year ago, it’s a window into a very troubled ministry.

If you look at his report, he charts the particular action taken by the ministry. There was a business, Bestech, that in November 2006 had not been registered. In fact, the ministry, in the Ombudsman’s report, indicates that there are all kinds of people in that category. Despite the fact that it is illegal to operate a private career college that is not registered with the ministry, a considerable number of unregistered training facilities exist in Ontario, presenting a risk to unwary consumers. The ministry is fully cognizant of this reality. However, it does not vigorously pursue information about or enforcement against rogue operators.

I was quite startled to read that, because, as I’ve already pointed out, the need for oversight is absolutely critical. It is the only thing that gives stability to the legitimate operators in the field.

This particular report of the Ombudsman went on to talk about recognizing Bestech Academy in November 2006. In spite of the ministry’s warning, the owner began promoting Bestech Academy and enrolling students without the ministry’s knowledge.

“In April 2007, the ministry became aware that Bestech Academy was providing illegal fuels industry training at its Stoney Creek campus.” This is the key to the point I made a moment ago about the need for oversight, the need for public confidence. “Instead of trying to shut down Bestech Academy to protect student consumers, as a result of confusion and miscommunication, the ministry proceeded to support the school through the Ontario skills development program.

In the end, the province spent upwards of $60,000, a substantial amount of which represented tuition fees, to send seven mature students for retraining at Bestech Academy.” This is a place that’s illegal, that isn’t providing the appropriate kind of service.

“It wasn’t until March 2008”—remember, I said that this began in November 2006—“that, as a broader initiative targeted at illegal providers of gas technician programs, the ministry actually issued Bestech a formal warning that its continuing operation could compromise future registration and lead to penalties under the act.... In June 2008, the ministry finally issued a restraining order against the school....

“In August 2008, ministry site visits disclosed that 174 students had attended Bestech Academy....” That’s why I pointed out that the dates are important, because this process began in 2006.

“Given Bestech Academy’s history of operating illegally despite repeated warnings, its failure to follow through on undertakings, the incompetence apparent in its registration application as well as the fact that it had misled the ministry on multiple occasions, it seems virtually inconceivable that the company could have satisfied the compliance and integrity standards for registration.” However, the ministry decided to give Bestech Academy yet another chance to see the error of its ways. We’re now up to September 2008. At that point, the ministry gave it until October 2008.

This chronology, I think, demonstrates the fact that the ministry has not done a good job. Well, “good” is hardly even relevant here. It took two years before something happened in terms of closing the door.

“It is obvious,” the Ombudsman goes on to say, “that there is much more that the ministry can do to publicize its knowledge of illegal operators, who are placing the public at risk.”

The other interesting thing is that by November 2008, the president of Bestech was hired by the ministry.

So how good is the system? I think the report demonstrates a staggering incompetence.

Is the bill the answer? Significant parts of the bill seem to tighten up parts of the process, and I would take you to areas such as

section 17 with regard to the ministry’s ability to make approvals of a specific program. But this also deals with those who are already registered, that they would then have to reapply. The bill gives no indication under what conditions and how much this has to do with the power of the superintendent or his delegated authority. There is no consideration given to the cost of compliance or the frequency with which one might have to reapply; there is nothing in regard to the process of third party approvals.

That leads me to think that what this bill seems to do is create yet another dilemma. Obviously, there are parts of the report that, I would argue, seem to be driven by issues raised by the Ombudsman’s report, but clearly, we have to have public hearings. We need to ensure that the amendments to this act are serving the public good. We’re not here as legislators to drive legitimate business out of the province; we are here to provide proper information to prospective students and to protect the public—both students and taxpayers—from rogue colleges.

Going back to a theme I mentioned a moment ago, there’s the need to provide some kind of balance. This bill appears to be far more punitive of the legitimate providers than of private career colleges. I don’t see as much as I would like to see about the question of the rogue operators and the fact that the ministry was prepared to drag on for two years against one particular offender and is able to say to the Ombudsman that they know there are many more illegitimate rogue providers.

This is an issue of consumer confidence. It’s an issue for the legitimate businesses who want to provide that flexibility and scope that I began with. I think that it behooves the government at this point in the process that we have fulsome public hearings. We have to hear from those providers.

Certainly, there are many issues, and I note the one recognized earlier in the week; the Globe and Mail talked about the issue of repayment. You can’t cast a net that is so broad it damages the reputation of legitimate businesses. One of the providers, for instance—the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College in Toronto—has loan repayment rates that surpass most public institutions.

My concern about this bill is that it doesn’t demonstrate the government’s commitment to ensuring a vibrant, healthy and appropriate private college system in this province by having those protections for the private providers and being vigorous in its pursuit of the rogue ones. That’s what we need as legislators. That’s what we need to be able to stand up and say we did for Ontario, for Ontario students and for the “oops” plan, the Open Ontario plan, that’s going to have all these people coming from all over the world.

We have to ensure that we have the security and safety and future of this system to provide for the generations of Canadians that need that flexibility and that scope of specialization that career colleges have provided in this province for 100 years.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions and comments? The honourable member from Ancaster–Flamborough–Westdale and something else. Sorry.

Mr. Ted McMeekin: I always say it’s the riding with the longest name because our people have the biggest hearts, the biggest hopes and the biggest dreams. One of those hopes and dreams is that our government will continue to pursue excellence in post-secondary education.

Picking up on the speaker opposite, we’ll do all in our power to build the vibrant, healthy and appropriate climate where people can come to both our public institutions and those that meet the smell test in terms of private career colleges and acquire the skills and tools they need to make a contribution to building an even stronger country.

It is about consumer confidence, and I know I’ve had many conversations with my esteemed colleague from Hamilton Mountain, the Minister of Consumer Services, who shares my concern that students ought not to be buying a pig in a poke.

I think it appropriate to point out here one of the ironies of the previous speaker’s comments. You can isolate an example and beat up on one particular situation. We’d be pleased to join you in that—we recognize that things aren’t perfect; that’s why this legislation is here to try to make things better—but then to go on and to say, “We need to have confidence in the sector.” That’s exactly what this bill is about. It’s about building confidence. It’s about assuring quality.

It’s about making sure that when people sign up for a program that they think will allow them to acquire the skills and the training that they need to make a contribution, they’re getting real value for that investment. Our government is absolutely committed to that, and that’s all this legislation is about.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions and comments?

Mr. Steve Clark: I’m pleased to provide some comments in response to my colleague from York–Simcoe. I think she hit the nail on the head in many respects with the concerns on this piece of legislation.

I’ve had the opportunity to peruse the Ombudsman’s report of July 2009, expressing many of the concerns that the member for York–Simcoe talked about: that this government was asleep at the switch in terms of bringing amendments forward. The Ombudsman called the ministry a number of things: inept, that the situation was a disaster. The example that the member for York–Simcoe talked about, that one side of the ministry was investigating that college and the other side was giving it money, is a tremendous embarrassment for this government—to be able to see in an Ombudsman’s report that you’re investigating someone and also giving them cash.

It’s just mind-boggling, the fact that this bill seeks to expand the powers of the government to oversee career colleges and private universities yet they haven’t used the tools that are available to them right now. The question becomes: If you’re not dealing with what you’ve got now, how are you able to expand the powers?

Again, the member for York–Simcoe talked about public hearings on this and the fact that we have to hear from providers on the issue of ensuring that we have a vibrant and healthy private college system. I think she has made some extremely good comments, and I hope, during the debate, that the government will address those comments.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

M me France Gélinas: I, too, listened to the member from York–Simcoe and was rather interested. She went through an example that showed clearly that the government was in a position to act, and had the opportunity and all of the levers available to do something, but chose not to. She was very eloquent in the way that she described the important roles that the hundreds of private colleges play in Ontario. There is a role for the private college, and she described it in quite some detail.

She showed some of the good that comes from having those colleges available to the people of Ontario and some of the successes that come from it. But then, when it came to areas going really wrong, to the point where it was brought to the attention of the government—the government knew about it, and not only did they decide to do nothing, they continued to invest.

It’s really sending a double message, and I sort of agree with her that if this piece of legislation is not brought to committee and really some amendments are not made to make it clearer, then those kinds of abnormalities could happen again the way that the bill is written now. There are lots of important issues that need to be talked about when we talk about colleges and universities. I’ve mentioned some of them—the student debt. I would say that funding for the college and university system has to be addressed; I would say that some of the challenges faced by aboriginal and francophone students have to be addressed also.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments? Seeing none, the honourable member for York–Simcoe has up to two minutes for her response.

Mrs. Julia Munro: I do appreciate the comments that were made. I think there is agreement here among those who spoke about the importance of what we often refer to as simply getting it right. I think that there are people whose needs have to be recognized. I recognize by the comments made by the member from Ancaster–Dundas–Flamborough–Westdale the fact that you do need to look at this as part of a bigger picture. But I think that the most important thing about this is the need for public hearings and the need to hear from providers and have a fuller understanding of some of the issues that have been brought forward by debate.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): It being well past 10:15, this House stands in recess until 10:30, at which time we’ll have question period.

The House recessed from 1022 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I’d like to welcome all the television and media cameras that are here today, and I trust members are on their best behaviour.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: On behalf of the member from Sarnia–Lambton, I’d like to welcome Don Pitt from the Family Counselling Centre in Sarnia. He’s here today to participate in family services day at Queen’s Park. We’d like to welcome Don to the Legislature today.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Indeed, this is family services day in the Legislature. We have three representatives here from Thunder Bay: Nancy Chamberlain, executive director of the Thunder Bay Counselling Centre—welcome, Nancy; Abi Sprakes, manager of programs and services at the Thunder Bay Counselling Centre; and Carol Cline, program manager from the Catholic Family Development Centre. Welcome. If I missed anybody, you’re all welcome.

Mr. Jim Brownell: I’d like to introduce Raymond Houde, executive director of Counselling and Support Services of Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry; and Alex MacDougall, the past president of the same organization. He is presently vice-president of the board of directors of Family Service Ontario. I’d like to welcome them.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I’d like to introduce Peter Prior from the Catholic Family Services Peel-Dufferin. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I’m pleased to welcome to the chamber Ms. Linda Dayler, executive director, and representatives from Catholic Family Services of Hamilton, which is located in my riding and does outstanding work in our city.

Hon. Monique M. Smith: I’d like to add my welcomes and welcome Alan McQuarrie, who is the executive director of the community care access centre, and his chair, Derek Thompson, who is with him here today. We’re delighted, and we appreciate all the work you’re doing in Nipissing. Thank you.

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: I would like to introduce John Ellis, who is the executive director of Family Service Ontario. He is in the gallery with Bobbye Goldenberg, the president of the board of directors of Family Service Ontario. I would like to invite all MPPs to their luncheon reception in room 228 following question period today.

Mr. John O’Toole: I’d like to recognize members of the Durham Catholic family services from Durham region who are here today.

Hon. John Milloy: We have a big delegation down here at Queen’s Park from Waterloo region today. Many of them are here with us from K-W Counselling Services: Leslie Josling, Cindy Jacobsen and Paula DeLorenzi; and from Mosaic Counselling and Family Services: Megan Conway, Cath Done, Anne Mank, Mary Wells, Shelley Norton, Scott Witmer, Tanya Smith and Patricia Beardsley.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: Just subsequent to the minister and his introduction, I just would like to draw special attention—we’re really thrilled that the people from Kitchener–Waterloo are here, but one of the people who is here today is my son, Scott Witmer.

Mr. Charles Sousa: I would like to welcome to the members’ gallery Mr. Dave Cook and his wife, Sophie. Mr. Cook is a former Mississauga city councillor, a writer and a historian. I’m pleased to recognize and celebrate his latest book, titled Fading History, Vol. 2, profiling celebrity leaders in Mississauga.

His previously published books about Mississauga’s history include Fading History, a collection of 15 stories about Mississauga’s heritage; Apple Blossoms & Satellite Dishes, which captures the wonderful history of the Applewood community; and From Frozen Ponds to Beehive Glory, which records the magic of Dixie Arena and the Beehive hockey club. Congratulations, Dave, and welcome back to Queen’s Park.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Barrie.

Ms. M. Aileen Carroll: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m so surprised you finally saw me. Thank you so much.

I’m delighted to introduce Heather Bebb, who is visiting us today with other members of the Catholic Family Services of Simcoe County. She is the executive director in Simcoe county, and it is a great delight to have her here.

Hon. Peter Fonseca: On behalf of all the Peel members, I’d like to welcome the board members of the Catholic Family Services of Peel-Dufferin: Ehsan Khandaker, Jose Diaz, Peter Prior, Jim Leising, Andrea Broadley and executive director of Catholic family services Mark Creedon, who are all here for family services day at Queen’s Park. Welcome. Great to have you here.

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I’m delighted to introduce in the House with us today Joyce Zuk—and John Ellis, of course, who’s the president for Ontario. Both of these folks are from Windsor and Essex county family services. We’re delighted they’re joining us today.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Minister of Labour.

Hon. Peter Fonseca: No, you got me already.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Minister of Energy and Infrastructure.

Hon. Brad Duguid: That’s not the first time that’s happened.

I’ve been asked to introduce Keith and Gail Haynes, Peter Haynes, Eileen Risby and David Coope, who are here from Texas and England—interesting combination.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I don’t want to let the day pass without welcoming Family Service Thames Valley to the Legislature. They do great work. Welcome.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I’d like to welcome to Queen’s Park Margaret Werkhoven, chair of the board of directors for Loyalist College, and Maureen Piercy, president of Loyalist College. Welcome.

Mr. David Zimmer: I would like to introduce Catholic Family Services of Toronto. They’re headquartered in Willowdale, right next to my constituency office. They’re here for family services day. Virginia Koehler and Roz Boateng, welcome to the Legislature.

Mr. Kim Craitor: I’m pleased to introduce a very good friend of mine, Kim Stasiak; she has a great first name. She is nursing in Newfoundland, and she flew in today because she heard that we are a very civil House. She is also a former nurse in Ontario. She was on the executive of the Ontario Nurses’ Association, she was on the Ontario Health Coalition and she was on the Niagara Health Coalition. Most importantly, she is one of my best friends.

Mr. Ted Arnott: I’d like to introduce guests who are here in the chamber at Queen’s Park. Jane Ishibashi, president; Wayne Shantz, executive director; and Doug Myrden: all members of Halton Family Services. Welcome today to the Ontario Legislature.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I’d like to take this opportunity to welcome, seated in the Speaker’s gallery today from Family Service Thames Valley, executive director Sandra Savage and past president Alex Connoy. Welcome. And for anybody who wasn’t welcomed today, welcome to Queen’s Park.

There being no further introductions—

Interruption.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Remove the items.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Order. Members of the Legislature are very understanding of the rules, and they understand that props are not allowed. I’m disturbed at the incident that has just taken place because it’s obvious it was planned by the number of media cameras that are here in both galleries. I don’t think this chamber should be used in any way for any stunts.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: Women across Canada refuse to be silenced about abortion or any other issue that—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): That is not a point of order. All members of this Legislature are very aware of the rules and that we have available for members the media studio and the grounds. But this chamber is to be used to conduct the business of the province.

It is now time for oral questions.

ORAL QUESTIONS

PUBLIC SECTOR ACCOUNTABILITY

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Speaker, I can assure you of one thing: This is one woman who will never be silenced by this Liberal government.

I’m going to say that, later today, MPPs from all political parties will have an opportunity to vote for truth—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Who’s the question to?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: To the Premier, Mr. Speaker. I was so excited.

MPPs from all political parties will have an opportunity to vote for truth in government. They can support my private member’s bill that I’m bringing forward on behalf of Tim Hudak and the Progressive Conservative caucus.

My private member’s bill contains a series of taxpayer protection measures which will include expanding freedom of information across all the public sector and ensuring full proactive disclosure of hospitality expenses, job reclassifications and contracts and contributions over $10,000 to public bodies.

BC and Alberta are already doing it. Ontario is not covered by FOI. Is that so Ontario families will not be able to see the money—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Premier?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I welcome my honourable colleague’s newfound enthusiasm for transparency and accountability. I look forward to the debate of her private member’s bill, and I congratulate her for bringing that forward.

But I would wonder, on behalf of the government and on behalf of Ontarians, why it is that when we moved to expand the sunshine list to include OPG and Hydro One, their party opposed that. Why is it that when we ask the Auditor General to expand his role to value-for-money audits of broader public sector hospitals, universities and schools, they opposed that as well? There are a number of other things which we’ve moved forward on, and in every instance, they’ve opposed that transparency and accountability.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: He can continue to look in the past, but the Ontario PC caucus, under the leadership of Tim Hudak, will continue to look forward and call for accountability.

The Information and Privacy Commissioner has repeatedly called to expand freedom of information to hospitals. So has the Ontario Hospital Association itself. But Dalton McGuinty is ignoring them, and he’s ignoring us. Meanwhile, he’s letting Liberal-friendly consultants who get rich off eHealth contracts feed off the trough.

Courtyard’s website shows that they have been doing work for the University Health Network and Kingston General Hospital. News releases and resumés of those who work for Courtyard show that they were cozy with three hospitals. Why would the Premier be opposed to centralizing information about these deals online and making them subject to FOIs?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Again, I want to repeat what I said a moment ago. When we asked the Auditor General to expand his role to value-for-money audits to cover public sector institutions like hospitals, that party opposed that. I also want to say that when we moved with respect to expenses and tightening rules for travel and meals and required that the Integrity Commissioner now review expenses of our 22 largest agencies, again that party opposed that new measure of openness, accountability and transparency.

Again, I congratulate the member on the private member’s bill she’s bringing forward. I’m sure all members look forward to that debate. But I would ask them that the next time we move forward with measures for accountability and transparency, we have their support.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I expect the Premier and his caucus to support the Truth in Government Act this afternoon. Sudbury hospital admits that it has a contract to pay McKinsey for advice on health care cuts, but the Premier won’t release it. The McGuinty Liberals signed at least 40 contracts with American hospitals and clinics to make them “preferred providers of US health care for Ontario patients,” but the Premier won’t table those reports either. Courtyard, Accenture and Blue Pebble, all implicated in the billion-dollar eHealth boondoggle, supplied consultants to the UHN, and the health budget is a lot more than a billion dollars.

So I ask: Will you let Ontario families watch over their health care dollars by adopting our proposals today?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: On the matter of health care, I would have Ontarians understand that the official opposition said, in terms of funding levels, they would have ensured that program funding would increase only at the rate of inflation. Since 2003, that would have been a $10-billion cut from front-line health care in the province of Ontario, just so people are clear as to where that party is coming from.

One more thing: With respect to freedom of information, we’ve expanded FOI requests to cover OPG, Hydro One, universities, and agencies like Cancer Care Ontario. Again, in every instance where we’ve moved forward with accountability and transparency measures, we have been opposed every step along the way by the party opposite.

PUBLIC SECTOR ACCOUNTABILITY

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: My question goes back to the Premier. Unfortunately, he is not adopting any of our proposals, from the way he’s speaking today.

The auditor is investigating 16 hospitals for use of consultants, procurements and expenses, so I have a question for the Premier. It’s very simple. How many contracts will the auditor find that were handed out to the Premier’s former political staff, election campaign organizers and friends of the McGuinty Liberals?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I think this is, sadly, par for the course when it comes to the official opposition. The Auditor General is conducting his work, as always, with the highest level of integrity, commitment and thoroughness. We welcome that and we encourage that, and anything we might do to support that, obviously, we are prepared to do.

Again, I want to come back to the original argument that I continue to make here. In every instance where we have tried to move ahead with new measures that promote accountability, transparency and further government openness, we have been opposed every step of the way by the party opposite. I would again say that the next time we want to move forward in those directions, I would ask them for their support.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Today is the opportunity to move forward by putting forward this private member’s bill and voting for it to restore truth in government. He can do it. It’s easy and it can be done today. Everyone but the McGuinty Liberals understand that the practices of the past need to change. The auditor discovered some eyebrow-raising consulting contracts and expenses at eHealth. There is every reason to believe he will find more of the same at the hospitals, or his report would have been tabled by now.

If the accountability reforms I am proposing were adopted, contracts over $10,000 would be posted online so Ontario families could track the Dalton McGuinty sweetheart deals to consultants at the Windsor Energy Centre or even at Casino Niagara.

So I’ve got a question for the Premier: Will he at least disclose the value of the untendered contracts that he handed out at Casino Niagara?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: My honourable colleague, sadly for her—and I feel for her in this regard—missed the good old days. It would have been great to have had her with us in opposition dealing with the Conservative government of the day and all of the challenges they created for Ontario taxpayers.

Again, whether we’re talking about expanding the sunshine list or expanding the role we’ve given the Auditor General to look into different public institutions, whether we’re talking about the rules we’ve put in place regarding expenses or whether we’re talking about publicly posting expenses and making that mandatory, in all of those areas we have found a way, as a government, to make progress in Ontario. We have changed Conservative government rules. We considered them inadequate. We found them wanting. We’ve improved upon those, and in each and every instance we did that, we were opposed by the party opposite.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: This is actually quite laughable. Don’t cry for me. It’s you who is out of touch and out of gas. Your Liberals will not answer direct questions about how they spend taxpayer dollars.

If the Truth in Government Act and its accountability measures were adopted today, Ontario families would have at their fingertips the value of contracts over $10,000. With Tim Hudak and the Ontario PC’s plan, Ontario families will get proactive disclosure, greater accountability and truth in government. The alternative Dalton McGuinty offers is secret sweetheart deals for Casino Niagara, Samsung, consultants at the LHINs and the UHN, the Sudbury hospital, the Kingston General Hospital, 16 hospitals the auditor is reviewing and who knows where else?

Why are you so obviously trying to avoid letting anyone know who is getting rich off your contracts that you’re handing out? Will you ensure that your caucus votes to support our—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Premier?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: A lot of energy, a lot of heat; not a lot of light, sadly. I always appreciate the enthusiasm, the vigour and the vitality demonstrated by my colleague opposite, but we will continue to do what we believe is in the best interests of the people of Ontario. We will hold ourselves to the highest standards of accountability, transparency and openness. We will continue to find ways to ensure that the public dollar goes as far as possible.

We’ll continue to find ways to make sure that Ontario taxpayers get good value for their money, whether we’re investing it in their hospitals, investing in their schools, investing in their roads, bridges, public transit or their environmental protections. I want to assure my colleague opposite that we take this responsibility very seriously.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. The NDP study using Statistics Canada’s number-crunching skills shows that Ontario families will be paying a lot more under the McGuinty government’s unfair tax plan. If the Premier is so confident about his HST scheme, why won’t he release his estimates about how much the HST will really cost Ontario families?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: As my honourable colleague well knows, at the time of our budget and through our presentations, we had put out there for some time now our estimates, our calculations with respect to the HST and its impact on families. I refer my colleague to some of the documentation that has been out for quite some time.

Again, I think the best thing for Ontarians to do is to take a look at those two independent studies. I think that we can have the highest confidence, if we’re looking for non-partisanship here, in those independent studies. One is from the University of Calgary by Professor Jack Mintz; the other is from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. I would strongly recommend those to my colleague opposite, and I look forward to describing in some detail the contents of those in my supplementary responses.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Because the Premier is still refusing to tell the real story, we released more figures today about just how much Ontario families will pay in new taxes. The average couple with one child will pay $1,239 more in taxes and are a shocking $815 a year worse off even after the government’s so-called help.

When was the Premier planning to tell families with children that the HST was going to cost them more than $1,200 each and every year?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I bring this healthy scepticism towards NDP math, and maybe it’s because I’ve seen a lot of NDP math over the years.

Instead, I’m going to make reference to this study put out by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. They call their study Not a Tax Grab After All: A Second Look at Ontario’s HST, and I’ll quote one passage from this. It reads: “Families in a wide range of incomes ($30,000-$90,000) should be better off on average by less than $80 or worse off by less than $65 per year.” That is a marked difference from the numbers put forward by my honourable colleague.

This is from a separate, independent, third party source. I would again recommend to Ontarians that they look at the reports by the independent parties.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Life with the HST won’t be any better for parents with two or more children either. They’ll be paying an extra $1,321 a year in sales taxes and $830 more after the tax cuts and credits. If the Premier has a different set of numbers, if he actually has a different set of numbers, where are they? Why will he not simply release them to the public so that they can see for themselves?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I’m not sure that my colleague is open to an enlightened understanding of the information that is out there. But what I can say is that the people in her community and the people around Ontario are very focused on one number in particular: 600,000. That’s the number of jobs that our package of tax reforms is going to create over the course of the next 10 years.

My honourable colleague says she’s very concerned on behalf of Ontario families. I think the single most important and pressing issue before Ontario families today, in the aftermath of this terrible recession where we lost 250,000 jobs, is: What about more jobs for the future? Our package of tax reforms is designed to create 600,000 more jobs for the people of Ontario over the course of the next 10 years, and we’re very proud of moving ahead with that.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is for the Premier as well. We’ve submitted freedom-of-information requests looking for the government’s own estimates—the government’s own estimates—on the impact of the Liberals’ new tax on families. The government has the numbers, but these requests have been blocked at every single turn. Why is the Premier so afraid to tell Ontario families how much more they’re going to be paying thanks to the HST?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I’ll give a copy of this book to my honourable colleague. It has been out for about six months now. It’s put out by the Ministry of Finance. It’s called Ontario’s Tax Plan for Jobs and Growth: Cutting Personal and Corporate Taxes and Harmonizing Sales Taxes. I’ll make reference to numbers that are found on pages 24 and 25 of this little manual. It says that a single parent on Ontario Works with two kids aged 5 and 7 will, after full implementation of this tax plan, benefit to the tune of $585. That’s how much they’ll be ahead. A single senior, pension income $20,000, will be ahead by $105.

A single individual earning $30,000 will be ahead by $255. A couple earning $70,000 with two kids, ages 5 and 10, will be ahead by $365. This takes into account all of our tax measures, and I recommend this to my honourable colleague.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: One day the Premier says that the tax is going to hit families and the next day he says it isn’t. Nobody really knows because they won’t come clean with the numbers. We know very well that this tax is going to hit families and it’s going to hit them hard.

Yesterday in Sudbury, city council announced that they’ll be raising fees to cope with the cost of the McGuinty government’s unfair tax. In Sudbury and everywhere else across Ontario it’s going to cost more to enrol babies in swim class; it’s going to be more to take a fitness class at a rec centre; it’s going to be more to rent ice for a hockey game. When will the Premier release all the details that the government has about the real cost of the harmonized sales tax?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: We’ve done all that; it’s just that she doesn’t agree with the numbers. It’s as simple as that. I think it’s also important to keep in mind that 83% of consumer purchases will remain unaffected by our tax changes.

Let me give you an example of some of the things which remain unaffected: groceries, prescription drugs, your water bill, public transit, child care services, books, children’s clothing, children’s footwear, adult clothing, child car seats, cars, car repairs, lawnmowers, refrigerators, freezers, computers, furniture, toys, admission to sporting events, movie tickets, restaurant meals, cellphone charges, home phone services, cable TV services, auto insurance, home insurance, rent, newspapers, radios, accessories, TVs, DVDs. All of these things will remain unchanged.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Premier’s unfair tax will take $800 out of every single average family’s pocket. That is the fact. It will be much more for families with kids. The cost of heating your home, buying a bike, even taking your child to a swim class is going to be going up. If the Premier really believes that his new tax is the right thing to do, why is he refusing to tell families the basic facts like exactly how much it will cost them each and every year with the harmonized sales tax?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: We’ve had our numbers out for a long time. There have been independent numbers out for a long time, and my honourable colleague and her party have come up with an interesting

interpretation, if I may say, of reality when it comes to the numbers.

But I do want to remind my honourable colleague that the NDP Fair Tax Commission, established in 1991—I’d been sitting in the Legislature for one year at that time, and I recall very well the work of the NDP Fair Tax Commission—came forward with recommendation 58, which specifically said that Ontario should exempt all business inputs from the retail sales tax. That means the HST; it’s a value-added tax we’re talking about, the HST. This is the same party that, in government, stood for the HST, and it’s interesting that now that they find themselves in opposition, they stand counter to a program which they know will increase jobs for working families.

SEVERANCE PAYMENTS

Mr. Norm Miller: I have a question for the Premier. With just 56 days left before the HST comes into full force, Ontario families are still being surprised by new details about your tax grab.

This morning at the committee reviewing the budget, we learned that it is not the collective agreements that are making you pay severance to the Ministry of Revenue staff who will transfer offices without missing a day of work. Premier, you could have used the HST agreement with Ottawa to clarify what everyone knows—that these employees are not dismissed—and saved $25 million for Ontario families.

Why did you say your hands were tied by the collective agreements when they weren’t?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Just so we know what we are talking about here, the HST severance pay was in keeping with an obligation that we have. The Conservative government inserted that clause in the collective agreement that guarantees severance. They had a chance to change it in 1999; they did not. They had a chance to change it in 2002; they refused to do it then. We did change it, for new hires. That’s how you change these things: on a go-forward basis. New hires are no longer entitled to this kind of severance. That started January 2009.

So, in fact, we were committed to an undertaking given by the previous government. We believe we have a responsibility to honour that kind of an undertaking, and we did that.

More importantly, this new transformation will save $100 million every year on an ongoing basis for the taxpayers of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Mr. Norm Miller: You signed the CITCA agreement with the federal government. You, sir, signed that agreement. What the Premier says about having to pay severance to people who were not dismissed and will not miss a day of work is as forthright as what he said about the HST being revenue-neutral.

The Ontario PCs proposed to amend the definition of “dismissal” without touching the collective agreements of HST tax collectors, but the McGuinty Liberals blocked us from standing up for Ontario families who cannot understand why the Premier is paying severance packages when no one is being severed from their job.

With just 56 days left, what will Ontario families discover is the next McGuinty Liberal HST fib?

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I ask the honourable member to withdraw that last comment.

Mr. Norm Miller: Withdraw. “Surprise.”

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): No, an unequivocal withdrawal.

Mr. Norm Miller: Withdrawn.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Premier?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to remind my honourable colleague, because he didn’t have the benefit of being here then, that in 1996, when there were jobs transferred from the Ministry of Agriculture and Food to the University of Guelph, again, people still had a job, but they also got severance under the Conservatives. That was in keeping with an agreement that the government had entered into. In 1997, when jobs were transferred from the Ministry of Health to the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, again under the Conservatives, people kept their jobs, but severance payments were also made.

We’re doing what is fair in the circumstances. We’ve changed it on a go-forward basis. We’re honouring an agreement that that government entered into. We feel some sense of responsibility when it comes to honouring agreements. My honourable colleagues opposite may feel differently when it comes to collective bargaining, but we see things differently.

PUBLIC TRANSIT

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. This morning, Toronto commuters were rightly worried that the full Transit City expansion promised by this government will never be built. But on Tuesday, the Premier told his House, “The four Transit City projects”—Sheppard, Eglinton, Finch and Scarborough—“can reasonably be completed in 10 years, while achieving the required savings of $4 billion.”

Will the Premier confirm that this is still the case, that all four lines will be built in their entirety and operational by 2020, despite his government’s $4-billion cut?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Transportation.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I think the member opposite is referring perhaps to a letter that was sent by the mayor to the government expressing a lack of support for the process that’s going on. The problem is that we really need the TTC, and we need the mayor to be working with Metrolinx.

We are determined that these projects are going to go ahead. There are actually five projects—there’s a fifth project that goes up into York region—and the money for those projects is in place. We’re developing the plan. It’s really disappointing, I think, that the mayor doesn’t want to get onboard, work with us and make sure that the projects go ahead. That’s what we need.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Premier keeps saying that his government is committed to completing Transit City and that the funding is only being delayed. But today, a new Metrolinx plan has been made public showing that Metrolinx plans to cut Transit City lines by 22.5 kilometres and remove 25 stops.

Did the Premier already know that Metrolinx was cutting Transit City lines by about one third when he told this House that Transit City would be “completed in 10 years”? And if he did know, why didn’t he say so then?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Let’s be clear: We’re talking about—just for the Toronto projects, because the mayor is only talking about those four projects—$8.1 billion. That money remains in place. That is the money that we have committed to.

Yes, there had been a conversation before the budget was announced about exactly how those projects would roll out. The mayor was part of that conversation, and he agreed to the initial conversation on how those projects would be rolled out. We brought the budget in and we said that we had to delay the cash flow, but the reality is that this is completely provincial money that’s going to these projects. These are not municipal dollars. The mayor needs to understand, I believe, that if he can work with us, these projects can go ahead. If not, the projects are at risk, and that would be a great shame for the city of Toronto and for the people who live in Toronto.

AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY

Mr. Wayne Arthurs: My question is for the Minister of Economic Development and Trade. Our province, like many jurisdictions around the world, is just now starting to emerge from one of the worst economic downturns of our lifetime. As a result of this downturn, a number of key industries were negatively affected and jobs were lost. Ontario’s auto industry was no exception. As this sector crumbled around the world, the negative effects were felt here at home. Auto companies scrambled to downsize, cut costs and restructure to remain afloat, and production levels fell. This left thousands of Ontario auto jobs in limbo, and many were lost.

The fog of the most recent recession appears to be lifting, though, and a number of sectors in the province are beginning to bounce back. It’s for this reason that I ask the minister: What’s the current status of the auto industry in Ontario following one of the most devastating recessions of our lifetime?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I’m delighted to speak about an industry that is dear to the heart of this economy in Ontario and, of course, to members all over this House, but in particular this member from Pickering, whose whole riding is certainly reliant on a thriving automotive sector as well.

We’re very pleased that the Ontario government stepped forward when we did. When that sector needed the help, the Ontario government was there. We knew that it had a future, and today we are seeing signs that that investment, that partnership, with the automotive sector was a very sound decision. Today, we’re seeing companies rehiring people and bringing back people from layoff. In Woodstock, as you know, they’re adding an additional shift with Toyota. If you go down to Chrysler, the van plant, they are firing on three shifts and overtime. At the CAMI plant in Ingersoll, we are looking at rehires as well. These are signs that this sector is starting to fire on all cylinders.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Wayne Arthurs: I want to thank the minister for her answer. It’s encouraging to see that things in the auto sector are turning around, not just globally but also here at home. These announcements of increased production, sales and new or recalled jobs are particularly encouraging. For this reason, I’d like to congratulate those auto companies on their recent announcements.

At the height of this recession, the government provided a lifeline to a number of key auto companies in the province, and one of those companies was General Motors, which was mentioned by the minister during her initial answer. In light of this government’s support for General Motors, I want to ask the minister: What’s the current status of General Motors in the province of Ontario?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I think all of us here in the House, none more so than our Minister of Finance, are delighted to see the repayment of their loan five years ahead of schedule. This was very good news for General Motors and very good news for the people of Ontario. We were delighted to see that they have made yet another investment in the St. Catharines plant with their V8 product. We are delighted because that speaks to the future of GM’s footprint here in Ontario, not just in production but in new products as well.

In the CAMI plant in Ingersoll, they are hiring more people and adding an additional shift. This is all really great news for GM. GM, by itself, accounts for at least a third of all of the products in the automotive supply chain as well, so it’s not just important to GM; it’s important to the whole supply chain and, frankly, to all of us here in Ontario.

GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS

Mr. Frank Klees: My question is to the Minister of Energy. I recently asked the minister a question about the contract for the multi-million-dollar redevelopment of 400-series service centres. I asked him to disclose the amount of payment that was made to the losing bidder for that contract. I recently received a letter from him, but we’re still no closer to the truth.

The minister states in his letter that the payment was made pursuant to a design and bid fee for unsuccessful bidders and claims that this is standard business practice. The minister must also know then that it’s also standard business practice to disclose that payment.

Can the minister tell us why, in this case, the amount of the so-called bid fee paid to Carillion Canada is being withheld? What is it about—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I thank the member for the question. What the member is talking about, for those who aren’t sure, is a project that is developing 20 service centres across our highways, modernizing rest areas and creating accessible and improved food services while creating 2,000 to 2,500 service centre jobs. I know the member is aware of this; it is an important project, and we are very pleased to be moving forward with it.

As I’ve said to the member in the past, the design bid fee is not an unusual industry practice. It’s something that promotes good business practices between government and the business community. It’s something that’s important to ensure, in a province that’s open for doing business, that we have a good working relationship.

We’ll continue, and I certainly am open to working with the member to get further answers to his questions. We did respond earlier—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Frank Klees: I’m well familiar with the design and bid fee and its purpose. What is surprising, though, is that we have it on good authority that the amount paid to Carillion Canada far exceeds what would typically be paid as a design and bid fee.

What is also surprising, for a government that purports to be open and wants to disclose its bidding information, is that in this particular case this fee continues to be undisclosed.

Why will the minister not disclose the amount of this fee to this Legislature and to the people of Ontario, who have paid for that bid fee? Will the minister undertake to disclose to us the reason for the fee and the amount? That’s all we’re asking.

Hon. Brad Duguid: One of the reasons why Infrastructure Ontario was set up was to professionalize—

Mr. John Yakabuski: What are you hiding?

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Renfrew will please withdraw the comment.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Withdrawn, unequivocally.

Hon. Brad Duguid: One of the reasons why Infrastructure Ontario was set up was to professionalize the procurement process for many of these contracts that go out. That’s the job that they do. In fact, in this particular case, an independent fairness adviser oversaw the entire procurement process and determined indeed that the process was open, fair and transparent. I think that what Ontarians want is that kind of open and transparent process.

We are looking forward—in fact, we’ve invited the member to sit down and have a briefing on this issue. If some of the questions he is asking can’t be answered in that briefing, that’s fine. There is sometimes commercially sensitive information that can’t be—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

PENSION REFORM

Mr. Paul Miller: My question is to the Premier. On June 13 and 14, finance ministers from across Canada will be gathering in PEI to decide upon the future of retirement savings in this country. A report suggests that later today, a Liberal member from Peterborough will introduce a private member’s bill that bears a close resemblance to a proposal put forward by the insurance industry. The finance minister is quoted as saying that the government may very well pass it.

We in the NDP have come down firmly on the side of public, defined pension plans with our well-received Ontario retirement plan. It’s a very simple question, Premier. Which side are you on: the side of the banks and insurance companies or the people of Ontario?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to again commend my colleague opposite and his party as well for the proposal that they’ve put forward. We think that it will likely form an important aspect of any ultimate solution that deals with the looming challenge of inadequate retirement benefits. We will continue to find ways to work with the federal government and with my counterparts across the country to determine what it is that we can do collectively. I’ve always said that it’s a national challenge that requires a national response. Again, I commend the NDP for the proposal that they have put forward, but I think it’s going to take more than that.

I think the other thing that I would say to my colleague opposite is that it’s going to require that they also attach the cost associated with the proposal so that we can get a better sense of what we’re talking about there.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Paul Miller: I think we did attach costs, if you read the report.

The respected pension expert Keith Ambachtsheer has said publicly that defined benefit plans can deliver the same level of retirement income at almost half the cost of retirement schemes offered by banks and insurance companies. In the historic pension debate that is now taking place, you either believe in cost-effective public pensions, as we do in the New Democratic Party, or you support the banks and insurance companies and their expensive individual savings plans. Premier, whose side are you on?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to say a few things in this regard. First of all, the Minister of Finance is in Ottawa today attending a round table on pensions. Secondly, I want to thank my honourable colleague and his party for supporting the pension bill that was passed just yesterday in this very Legislature. Thirdly, I just don’t think we enjoy the luxury of seeing the world the way my honourable colleagues in the NDP do, which is that either you are with me or against me, or you’re on this side or you’re on that side.

I think the world is more complicated, and I think there’s room, ultimately, in the solution when it comes to dealing with our pensions for some greater public initiative. I think it’s also important for us to find ways to create more private opportunities for Ontario families as well, should they wish to avail themselves of that kind of an opportunity.

So again, we’re going to try to bring a comprehensive, holistic, thoughtful approach to a tremendous challenge. We’ll continue to find ways to work with our colleagues opposite, with the federal government and with my counterparts from around the country.

PUBLIC TRANSIT

Mrs. Laura Albanese: My question is to the Minister of Transportation. In my riding of York South–Weston, transit is a top priority. My constituents are eagerly awaiting the completion of the big five transit projects, particularly the Eglinton LRT. The delay in funding for the transit projects in the GTA, as announced in the budget, however, has caused mixed reactions.

While some of my constituents believe themselves to be well served by the delay, as it permits additional reflection and analysis of the Eglinton LRT in regard to safety, expropriations, revitalization and the development of the Kodak lands, they are all worried that they may not see the construction of these transit lines for a very long time.

Would the minister confirm where we’re at? It needs to be fully understood what the government’s plan is.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you to the member for the question. Let me begin by saying that I understand as the Minister of Transportation, but I also understand as an MPP from Toronto how important these projects are. We’ve made a commitment to build regional transit in Toronto and the greater Toronto and Hamilton area, and we’re moving forward. We’ve made significant investments in public transit already: $9.3 billion since 2003.

I’ve asked the experts at Metrolinx to come forward with a thoughtful, reasonable plan for phasing the big five transit projects, so that’s the four Toronto projects and the York project. I look forward to seeing that plan later this month.

Let me be clear: I want to remind all of our Toronto and GTHA constituents that this money in these projects, apart from a small amount of federal money in the Sheppard project, is all provincial. There is no municipal funding. We are going to move ahead, and I look forward to the co-operation of the mayor with us.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mrs. Laura Albanese: Minister, notwithstanding the mixed reactions in my community to the Eglinton LRT project as it stands, this morning I was alarmed to hear stories in the media reporting that the mayor of Toronto will not support Metrolinx’s plan to complete the big five projects in 10 years. Many of my constituents will be wondering whether this is the end of the next generation of public transit in the GTA. There are petitions being signed and emails being sent—a lot of fear-mongering. As I mentioned, transit is a priority in my riding.

We need the minister to clarify for this House and my constituents the government’s position on transit, and how the government’s plans will move forward.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I hear the heckling under the breath of the people opposite saying that this is ridiculous. What’s ridiculous is that we have, as a government, put on the table $9 billion to build projects in the GTHA—$9 billion.

I was very surprised and disappointed to read the mayor’s letter. I want to assure the House, as I have a number of times, that we are fully, fully intentional in moving ahead on the big five projects. I’ve very concerned that the mayor would release partial and inaccurate information before that plan is fully developed, because Metrolinx wants to work with the city to put that plan in place. There’s no intention, I hope, to undermine this process by going public with the information before it’s finalized. So I want to say to—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

PHARMACISTS

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: My question is for the Minister of Health. Minister, why have you knowingly moved forward with a plan to not only make it difficult for family-owned pharmacies to survive but also put patient access to their services at risk?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: The reforms we’re proposing when it comes to getting fair drug prices for the people of Ontario is a proposal I’m very proud of. I am astonished, frankly, that the party opposite has chosen to take the side of big pharmacy over the side of people who need access to generic drugs. We do acknowledge that access to pharmacies is a very important part of what we need to do to actually enhance the role of pharmacists in our health care spectrum. That’s why we’ve allocated $22 million to maintain access to pharmacies in rural areas.

I have heard from my colleagues about situations in their ridings where there’s a concern about access. What I can do is assure you and the member opposite that access to pharmacies—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: Again, to the minister: Minister, we’ve just learned about your own 2009 briefing document at the ministry which outlines how smaller, independent and rural pharmacies, which are about 51%, have “a low capacity” to survive your reforms. There are also analysts, such as the CFIB and Scotia Capital, which have confirmed that it’s going to be the little person, the family pharmacy, that is going to be dealt the hardest blow. Yet despite this information, you are moving forward.

Why are you ignoring your own report and these analysts? Will you today do the right thing and go back to the table and resume the negotiations with the pharmacists?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I have been anxious to meet with the pharmacists ever since we released this proposal. They have cancelled meetings. We have requested meetings. It’s very important to me that we actually have those conversations with pharmacists, and I’m very disappointed that they have, so far, not made that possible.

I’m also very pleased that health ministers across this country are now looking at what we are doing in Ontario. They recognize that their constituents as well are paying far too much for generic drugs.

We want to get this right. We want to actually enhance the role of pharmacists. So many of our independent pharmacists are actually looking forward to the new model, where they will be paid for services that they provide to their patients. Those independent pharmacists have a great relationship with their customers. They will be able to take advantage of the payments, almost $300 million, that we’re putting back into pharmacies—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I thank the member for the question. We’ve made a lot of progress over the past seven years in providing additional services in French throughout the province of Ontario. We have taken great strides to make sure that wherever they are required in criminal cases, we have the necessary judges and justices of the peace and the crowns and other officials to support that. We’ll continue to do that.

In designated areas throughout the province of Ontario, we’ve made great strides in providing access to other services. If there are issues, if there are challenges—and there may be in certain parts of the province—we’re continuing to work with my colleague the minister responsible for francophone affairs, with the francophone lawyers’ associations, and we’ll work with local officials to address those issues in a positive, proactive, supportive way.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: Yes, we have taken a very proactive stance in passing legislation to support and ensure the provision of French-language services throughout the province of Ontario, and yes, we are complying with the appropriate legislative regime. But we are trying to do more than that, and go beyond it.

In those areas of the province where there are challenges, and some may be identified by my colleague and some may be identified by others, we’ll continue to work not only with local officials but with the francophone lawyers’ associations and with my colleague the minister responsible for francophone affairs.

We actually received a very helpful and supportive report not long ago with some very good suggestions that we are implementing from the Ombudsman for francophone language issues to make sure that we are ahead of our legislative requirements and are continuing to build on the strong record that we have already. We’ll continue to do that.

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES

Mr. Jeff Leal: My question today is for the Minister of Community and Social Services. This year marks the second annual Family Service Ontario lobby day at Queen’s Park, and I want to welcome friends from Peterborough, my riding, here today.

Family Service Ontario represents 46 not-for-profit member agencies that provide community-based mental health services and programs for over 250,000 individuals and families annually, from every age group and socioeconomic status. Could the minister discuss how we have worked with Family Service Ontario in order to support those who support our most vulnerable families?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: I’d like to thank the member from Peterborough for that question. I would also like to thank Family Service Ontario for coming to Queen’s Park today. I want to acknowledge John Ellis, who is the president of Family Service Ontario.

This government is proud of its accomplishments made in partnership with Family Service Ontario. Family Service Ontario partners with agencies that provide a range of support services, everything from employment assistance programs to parent-teen education. Some agencies even offer special programs for children and adults with developmental disabilities.

Today is an opportunity to learn about the great work that Family Service Ontario does. I encourage all MPPs to take time out of their day to meet with them after question period in rooms 228 and 230.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Mr. Jeff Leal: Thank you. I appreciate that very detailed and extensive answer. In my riding, I can tell you that the work of Family Service Ontario is integral to many families throughout my community who have come to rely on the exceptional care that Family Service Ontario provides.

I understand that our government has increased its support to Family Service Ontario significantly since 2003, whether that is funding for counselling programs, the transition and housing support program or the program of early intervention for children who witness violence. To the minister: Could you tell the Legislature what support this government has provided and continues to provide to Family Service Ontario?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: Thank you again for the question. Our government is committed to supporting Family Service Ontario. Last year, my ministry provided $7.9 million in funding to Family Service Ontario member agencies for violence-against-women services. We also increased annualized funding for VAW counselling agencies by 3.29%, retroactive to April 1, 2009. We have increased the base budget to Family Service Ontario agencies by 13% since 2003, as well as providing $3.5 million for enhancements to their transitional and housing support programs and counselling programs. Overall, there has been an almost 200% increase in MCSS funding to Family Service Ontario member organizations.

I wish Family Service Ontario a successful day here at Queen’s Park.

MUNICIPALITIES

Mr. Norm Miller: My question is for the Acting Premier. AMO, the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, raised last-minute alarm bells over schedules 10 and 12 of the budget bill. They pointed out that the government’s budget bill downloads more costs onto municipalities. I raised the issue at committee this morning.

Acting Premier, the budget bill amends some 27 separate pieces of legislation. The bill, as with so many, has been time-allocated and had a meagre five hours of committee meetings to get comments from those most affected.

Past omnibus bills like the HST act and the Green Energy Act hid severance payments for HST tax collectors and took away municipalities’ rights to decide on major projects. Can you tell me what other surprises are hidden in the budget bill before it is too late?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: It was a little bit difficult following the scent of his question, but I will tell you that the budget bill, as you know, is an extensive document that is doing some tremendous things for Ontarians. We know that as we go through this in committee, it gives you an opportunity to see that.

A specific question like this, I think, I will refer back to the Minister of Housing, and we’ll get back to you with that kind of an answer.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Norm Miller: The Acting Premier makes my point: It is a very extensive bill. It has 31 schedules and it got five hours of public hearings. We know that the CITCA agreement in the fall budget bill gives these HST tax collectors severance when they aren’t being severed.

How can we have confidence in the government’s legislation? What has evolved is a legacy of bad legislation and bad public policy. When are you going to start being open, transparent and upfront with the public?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: As I said, if there is a specific question related to that area regarding our municipalities, we’d be happy to get to the root of it.

Let me just say that since 2003, this government has been more open and upfront and consultative with our municipalities than they’ve ever experienced in the history of the Ontario government.

It’s clear, because all of us at some point as ministers in this cabinet have gone before AMO on a regular and consistent basis: We have a law that says that we will consult with our municipalities. We’re called before this group, this steering committee, on a regular basis. They know, in advance of legislation being tabled, the direction that we’re going in.

These are the kinds of relationships that we’ve built. The result of that has been a significant amount of work to upload the massive downloading done by your party. I find it very ironic that you in particular would ask questions about relationships—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

SPEECH AND LANGUAGE SERVICES

Mr. Howard Hampton: My question is for the Minister of Children and Youth Services. The McGuinty government is forcing young children in northwestern Ontario with delays and handicaps in their speech and language development to wait up to 18 months—a year and a half—before getting access to speech and language pathologists.

We know that children with delays in their speech and language development who don’t receive appropriate professional help will then face subsequent serious behavioural, social and educational challenges.

My question is this: Does the minister think it is fair when the McGuinty Liberals force these young children to wait up to a year and a half before they get access to the speech-language pathologists they need?

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: I’m pleased to have a chance to talk about the importance of ensuring that speech and language therapy is provided to children promptly and at an early age. That is precisely why I will be embarking on a large-scale rev