Manitoba Hansard — 1 June 2000 (Sitting 38B, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-38b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session -Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 388- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, June 1, 2000

Member AGUJGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASIITON, Steve, lion. ASPER, Linda BARRETr, Becky, lion. CALDWELL, Drew, lion. CERILLI, Marianne CIIOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, I larry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Bon. GERRARD, Jon, Bon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold II ELWER, Edward IIICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCI-IUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur- Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin- Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

1923 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 1, 2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRE SENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): I beg to present the petition of Wayne Jenner, Cathy Jenner, Wayne Donnelly and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh) encourage the Government of Manitoba to continue partnering with schools and law enforcement to ensure Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs provide recreational and athletic activities for young people in a safe, supervised en vironment in 13 schools throughout Winnipeg for years to come. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the Honourable .�ember for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) ariiifind the petitioners have complied with the authorities and practices of this House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth: THAT Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs, located in 13 schools in Winnipeg, provide young people between from the ages of 10 to 17 an opportunity to participate in community sports under the supervision of university students and police officers; and THAT the Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs help reduce neighbourhood crime, enhance the relationship between young people and the police and create positive alternatives to undesirable pastimes for youth; and THAT total attendance at the Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs in January and February 2000 was more than 8000; and THAT the importance of athletic activity on a child's physical and cognitive development is well established and should not be overlooked; and THAT during the 1999 provincial election, the New Democratic Party, led by the Member for Concordia, promised "to open schools after hours and expand recreation activities for children and youth"; and THAT the Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs provide an excellent example of communities partnering with government, schools and law enforcement to provide a safe place for youth to go; and THAT many parents throughout Winnipeg are very concerned that the Government of Manitoba may choose to close the Winnipeg Police Athletic Clu ter of Justice encourage the Government of Manitoba to continue partnering with schools and law enforcement to ensure Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs provide recreational and athletic activities for young people in a safe, supervised environment in 13 schools throughout winnipeg for years to come ..

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minis environment in 13 schools throughout Winnipeg for years

1924 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions.

I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us today from Daniel Mcintyre Collegiate, 18 Grade 11 students under the direction of Mrs. Connie Baker. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk). Also seated in the public gallery we have from Red River College, 17 students under the direction of Mrs. Alice Landry. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Sale).

Also in the gallery we have from Linden Christian School, 25 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Mark Glor. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen). On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you here today. * (13: 35) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Full-Time Nursing Positions Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Despite the NDP promise to end hallway medicine within six months after forming government, we know that there are still patients in the hallways.

Despite the NDP promise to open permanent new beds, we know that permanent beds are being closed and units are being shut down on weekends. During the election campaign, the First Minister (Mr. Doer) said he would convert part time nursing positions to full-time nursing positions. I would like to ask the First Minister if he has kept his promise to nurses to convert part time positions to full-time positions. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): welcome the opportunity to correct some of the inaccuracies put on the record by the Member.

I am quite happy to provide the Member with a copy of the report done by CIHI, the Canadian Institute for Health Information that said that Manitoba's efforts to deal with hallway medicine were the best in the country, with hallways down by over 70 percent and 80 percent. I might add that in December, January and February of this year, despite more visits to the emergency, we were down around 70 percent or 80 percent in terms of hallways. The public of Manitoba knows that we never promised perfection, but I think that the results speak for themselves.

With respect to the issue, we have directed and asked that there be posted additional full time positions. We are working with the various health authorities, and we are doing something. We are working with nurses on this, Mr. Speaker, something that perhaps might be novel to members opposite in order to address the issue of full-time nurses. Mrs. Mitchelson: I think the new government has some difficulty with the truth of the matter. It is just like the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger), who is not quite telling the truth to Manitobans that we are the highest taxed province, and the people in Manitoba are paying the highest taxes across the country. This minister seems to think the definition of ending hallway medicine is a 70% reduction. Well, I am sure that Manitobans do not agree that their promise has been kept as a result of this minister's rambling today. But, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health then: How many part-time nurses have moved into full-time positions as a

June I, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 1925 result of his promise and the implementation of his nurses' first strategy? Mr. Chomiak: The Member danced off on some factual inaccuracies with respect to taxation, but I will not deal with that. That has been adequately dealt with by the Minister of Finance and the First Minister (Mr. Doer). The members do not recognize the significant impact that our hallway initiatives have had with respect to hallways this year.

I think that progress will continue, and, in fact, in this budgetary year we have included additional funding and continuing funding for all of our hallway initiatives. We are now at a point where we can assess people in the hallways that are there on periodic bases, not overnight, not for day after day as was the case in this province for the past four or five years, and we are able to put in place even more initiatives that will improve the situation even greater than has been recognized in the CIHI report.

With respect to the specifics of the Member's question, I know we are coming up to Estimates, and I will provide the Member with that information. I will take those specifics as notice, and we will get back to her. Mrs. Mitchelson: It is interesting that people who are working within our hospital system today are saying that they are now calling them avenues in the hospitals not hallways. So maybe that is the rationale that the Minister of Health is using for talking about reduction.

But again, I just want to indicate that the promise that was made by the NDP during the election campaign was to end hallway medicine and hire I 00 permanent nurses immediately to fix the health care system. My question to the Minister of Health is: How many more permanent positions or how many part-time positions were converted to full time positions since his government took office in October? Mr.

Chomiak: I will provide the graphs that show the dramatic and stark difference between the hallways when that Member was a member of Cabinet and did not take initiatives to improve the situation and the situation today. I will be happy to provide members with that copy. With respect to the issue of the hiring of nurses, as I recall from memory-and as I indicated to the Member I will get back with the specifics-the number of vacancies has decreased quite significantly since we formed office, but I will provide the Member with the specifics of that.

That is one of the reasons why we so regret members opposite not supporting oar five-point nursing plan. For the first time in a decade, something is being done about nurses, and members opposite are left in the lurch, again ignoring nurses and ignoring the needs of nurses. * (13 :40) First Nations Casinos Community Support Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, this government is in possession of a report regarding the recommendations of the five aboriginal casinos.

Although this government is aware of the strong opposition from communities, they have failed to make a commitment to these communities where their concerns have been shown. Will the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs assure the communities of St. Andrews and Headingley they will not be considered for a casino? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): I just want to say that currently my colleague, the Minister for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson), and two representatives of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs are looking at the recommendations.

Shortly thereafter, approximately three o'clock, we will be having a press conference to make the document public and to notify the public of Manitoba of those recommendations. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister then listen to the citizens of Manitoba and reject any proposal that does not receive community support, despite the wishes of Cabinet?

1926 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, we always pride ourselves on listening to the public of Manitoba, and we would like to put that on the record. Again, I would just like to repeat to the Member opposite that at three o'clock we will be making the recommendations public at that time. I would ask the Member opposite to wait until then, and he will certainly be informed, as the rest of us will. Community Plebiscites Mr.

Jack Reimer (Southdale): Well, then I will ask the Minister again: Will he commit today to hold public consultations and referendums in each community where a casino is being recommended? Bon. Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): We have gone through this on numerous occasions. The RFP states quite clearly that there are a number of different criteria that have to be met, and those recommendations are based on those criteria. Those are the recommendations that are coming forward to government. First Nations Casinos Selection Committee Report Release Mr.

Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. The Minister just said to the House that his government prides itself on listening to the people, but today they show absolute contempt and arrogance to this Legislature by releasing this report at 3 p.m., after Question Period and before a weekend, three days before this Legislature can question the Minister. I ask him if he will show the proper respect to the elected members of this House and table this report now, today, in this House, so that we can question the Minister on this report?

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Bon. Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): I am not one necessarily to quote scripture, but I believe it is Matthew or Luke,

Chapter 7, verse 3, that says before you attempt to take the speck out of another person's eye, you should take the board out of your own. What I mean by that-and all due respect to the Member opposite-they received the Desjardins report in December. They announce it in January, and then they release it and make public comment on it in June, about seven months after that. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. ... (13:45) Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Beauchesne's 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible. I have no problem with that, but they should not provoke debate either. The Honourable Minister, if he does not want to answer the question, he does not have to. He has the privilege of remaining seated, and we will probably get as much answers from an empty seat. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker.

What happened here was the Opposition asked a question, and I know they love to hear the sound of their questions: I hope that is on TV, they say; I hope that is in the newspaper. But the Opposition also has to listen to an answer, and an answer was given specifically to the question. It was a clear answer. Just because they feel provoked does not mean it is provoking debate. The answer was in order. Mr. Speaker: I will hear one more. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on the same point of order?

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 19 27 Mr. Praznik: No, on another supplementary question. I will let you rule, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, know that debate gets a little heated once in awhile, and there are strong convictions on both sides of the House. I would like to remind all ministers that answers to questions should be brief as possible, deal with the matter raised, and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet for his sup plementary question. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, if the Member wants to quote scripture and talk about boards in the eye, let us look at that government, and I ask the Minister: Why is he changing in the practice of his own government? We have had a number of reports that they have brought in recently, and they have tabled them in this House with respect to Lotteries and other matters. Yet today I ask him, knowing that this is the last sitting day of the week, knowing that we will not be back to question the Minister until Monday, why would he wait until 3 p.m. this afternoon to table the report?

I ask him: Is it because he has something to hide, and he is afraid to face the Legislature? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, it is certainly not my intent to provoke debate or certainly get into a dispute over the facts or anyt hing else. I just want to state that on a point of credibility, if a point could be made, is that we received the report 24 hours ago, less than 24 hours ago, and here we are we are going to have a press conference and release it to the public, be open, up-front, let people-[interjection] Late yesterday we received it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Lemieu x: Mr.

Speaker, I received the report late yesterday, and we are going to be pre senting it today, presenting those recom mendations to the public of Manitoba, whom we realize are anxious to receive those. It is going to take place at three o'clock this afternoon, and certainly all members will be privy at that time to those recommendations. *(13 :50) Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, to the same minister. Yesterday he told us he did not have the report when he came in to Question Period. Now he is sort of fudging when he got it.

If the Minister would like to have the weekend to study the report and wants to release it to the public and to this Legislature on Monday, that is fair. We do not deny that. But to release it to the public this afternoon at three o'clock before the elected representatives of the people have a chance to question the Minister, why is he hiding? What is in that report that he does not want to face the questions of members opposite? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, we, as the government, certainly have nothing to hide.

This is a great day in Manitoba, a great day for First Nations people, an opportunity for First Nations people to get jobs, economic development, and so on. First Nations people, we are going to be holding a joint press conference, hand in hand with First Nations people, announcing this report and the recommendations. It is a great day for Manitoba and the people of Manitoba. Daycare System Funding Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Family Services.

After consulting with the daycare community, I must say, I did not hear too many people in the community asking for cuts to daycare. But can the Minister explain the ef fects his cuts to school-age daycare will have on the quality of care given our most valuable resource, our children, our future? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): First of all, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have announced a $9 .1 -million increase to the daycare centres of Manitoba.

In the process of that announcement, we worked very closely with the daycare regulatory review committee, which is comprised of parents, child care providers, the Manitoba Child Care Association, teachers, staff members of Red

I928 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 River Community College and other faculties that teach in this area. They made recommendations for what is called a unit-funding model so that it would not matter in future whether you were providing child care at the school age, at preschool or at infancy, you would derive the same number of support dollars for each pod of service delivered. There are some, a very small number, of before school, lunch and after-school programs which will receive a reduction in their revenue. Mr. Laurendeau: Fifty percent reduction in funding is a cut. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister explain the effects that his cuts on school-age programming will have on the programming within our community? How many centres will have to shut down because ofthis minister's cuts? Mr. Sale: None is the answer. They have been provided with approximately eight options that they can look at in regard to augm enting their revenue, changing their pattern of service, working together with other child care centres, a whole variety of options.

Many of the centres that are being affected, which is a very small number in total, have surpluses which they can apply, very significant surpluses, because they received funding that was greater in proportion to the care they were providing than did preschool or infant programs. We have met with all of those centres. We are continuing to work with them. We told them they would have until January of next year. They would not receive any reductions until at least Janua ry.

They will have that time to work out a new program, and we are confident that they are doing that and have been meeting with them since the announcement. They are working towards solutions for that small number which the daycare association had already provided details to of the effect of that proposal when they made it to our government in the fall. So I am confident these problems will be worked out for the very small number of centres affected. * (13 :55) Mr. Laurendeau: Mr.

Speaker, can this minister, who believes latchkey kids are not a problem, tell this House where the children who depend on this service will find the quality care in the future? Will it be at 7-Eleven? Mr. Sale: No, it will not be at 7-Eleven.

It will be, presumably, if the centre is prepared to work on any of the I 0 options that they have been given, it will be in that centre because there are very constructive and extremely doable options ranging from consider providing services during the lunch slot if you operate a school-aged program and are not doing so; expand your service to provide nursery or kindergarten children if you are not doing that; provide casual or extended hour care if you are not doing that; and there are seven more options. We are working with those centres.

We are confident they can improve the quality of care, they can pay their staff adequately and no centres need close as a result of this change. Youth News Network Government Position Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education's arguments about prohibiting YNN in schools concerns the use of curriculum time, and the presentation of commercials is no longer valid.

We have come to know that YNN is now Athena Educational partners, are now changing the clause from two and a half minutes of com mercial time to the use of two and a half min utes, replacing it with two and a half minutes of public service announcements. Mr. Speaker, given this information, what is the Minister's stance regarding a school div ision's ability to enter into a contract with YNN and receive over $200,000 worth of technological resources? Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): I am always kind of amazed at the vigorous defence of corporations that the members opposite present in this House when we are talking about children's education and the integrity of the public school system in the province of Manitoba.

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 1929 The Government of Manitoba's position on the existing YNN contracts is unchanged. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, now that the Minister is fully aware of the revised contract and fully aware that the principals and the teachers paid very close attention to his concerns, my question to this Minister is: Why in the world would he not allow YNN to be allowed in the classrooms? The schools benefit greatly from this. Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, there have been some media reports certainly, and that is the extent of my familiarity, a letter from Athena partners indicating much of what they did in their press release a week or so ago, and some media reports. Interestingly enough, the media reports, reporting from a student, Stephanie Kroeker: we need teachers not television. That was in the Toronto Star last week.

Certainly I have had a lot of commentary from students in the schools where YNN exists questioning the quality of the programming, the time taken up in terms of classroom time, in fact the presence of the television sets in cafeterias generally, so as I said in my earlier comments in response to the first question, I am constantly amazed at the vigour with which the members opposite defend corporate intrusions into the classroom. The decision of the Province of Manitoba stands. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Smith: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister today acknowledge the professionalism of principals and teachers in the local on-site classroom and revise his decision to not allow YNN , in view of the fact that this is the school division's decision and not mine? Mr. Caldwell: I am not entirely certain of the Member's question in terms of the Member's question referring to herself. It was a little bit convoluted.

All I can say is that there are eight schools in the province of Manitoba that currently have six- month probationary contracts with YNN , eight schools out of substantially hundreds of schools in the province of Manitoba, certainly, and we do respect the view of the vast majority of educators in the province of Manitoba, and in fact are committed to maintaining instructional integrity in the classrooms of the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the decision of the Manitoba Government stands. * (14:00) Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Report Recommendations Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, with the report of the committee reviewing applications for First Nations casinos expected, indeed released this afternoon, and with Manitobans still reeling from the revelations of outrageous behaviour at the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation in recent times, and with the fact that these doubts about the governance of casinos, these doubts have been enhanced by the Minister's comments last week that she will not implement all the Singleton and Human Resources reports' recommendations before she fast-tracks casino expansion, my question is to the Premier: Will he fast-track full implementation of the Singleton and Human Resources reports quickly so that First Nations can be protected from being anywhere associated with this scandal?

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): There is quite a lot of implied question in the actual questions,

preamble and statement made by the Member opposite. As I recall correctly, the Member opposite and his party in the last election campaign campaigned to implement the Bostrom report and the aboriginal casinos. I think it is important now when he talks about expanding casinos that he recognize what his party, at least when ·I was in a debate with their members, promised in the last election campaign, and I dare say got a mandate after the campaign with the voters of the people of Manitoba. Secondly, we have moved on a number of recommendations in the Lotteries report. I certainly hope, and we will work to make sure,

1930 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 that the inadequacies of the fonner admin istration in dealing with Lotteries is not reflected upon the potential successes of First Nations casinos here in Manitoba. Mr. Gerrard: My supplemental to the Premier: Given that many Manitobans, quite frankly, are as sceptical of NDP appointees to the Lotteries Corporation as they were of Tory appointees before them, that the real question is, your inference now that you have appointed people, everything is okay, is not reassurance enough.

What we want is full implementation of the Singleton and Human Resources reports. When will you have the report recommendations fully implemented? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, any party that still sup ports a patronage senate need not lecture mem bers on this side. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: The acting CEO of the Corporation is an individual called Mr. Winston Hodgins. I believe he is a person who has worked through a number of different administrations and a number of different ministers. I believe he is an individual who has worked on Treasury Board.

He has worked for a number of different people in this Legislature. I think his integrity is without question, and I would be surprised that the Member opposite is raising questions about his integrity. He is not a political appointee. He is a meritorious appointee that we have a Jot of trust in, Mr. Speaker. Information Release Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My second supplementary to the Premier. The Board of the Manitvba Lotteries Corporation has been asked to account for every penny spent of that extra $60 million.

I ask the Premier whether he will commit to releasing the fully documented itemized list of those extra $60 million in expenditures. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Yes, Mr. Speaker. I certainly will meet with the Minister res ponsible who will be communicating with the chair of the Board and the acting CEO to account for those numbers.

At a previous legislative Question Period I did suggest that the latest Lotteries report statement had not been yet approved by the legislative committee, and I would certainly be open to when the Board and the CEO are ready to report on a full accounting of some of the questions that are still outstanding, like who knew what, when? Who spent what, when? When did Treasury Board and the previous government approve what expenditures? Is Mr. Cooper's recollection of the approval of those events correct?

And let us have a full accounting and Jet us look at one fonn: a legislative committee that we can have the annual report reviewed at and some more further clarity on the issues raised by the member opposite. lrwood Subdivision Heritage Site Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, there is a subdivision of a rail line between Bowsman and Birch River that is known as the lrwood subdivision where the CN Railway are preparing to tear up that subdivision. Meanwhile, the R.M. has been moving to have their portion of that track declared a heritage site.

I wonder if the minister of transportation has had any involvement with this issue. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, as we discussed in Estimates yesterday, we have already indicated to the federal government our desire to maintain our rail system in place, and I outlined yesterday the fact we are taking the initiative at the provincial level to deal with provincial short lines. We have introduced a bill in this Legislature which will also ensure that we have further protection of our short lines, and quite frankly we should do everything possible to do that.

Certainly we have indicated to a number of communities concerned about potential abandonment of various rail lines and short lines in this province that this government supports maintaining short-line rail in this province. Mr. Cummings: Well, this issue is slightly broader than the manner in which the Minister addressed it.

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 1931 I would also ask the Minister of Culture and Heritage if she, along with the Minister of Transport, would be prepared to assist the R.M. in their efforts to protect this as a heritage. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Member opposite for the question. Of course, the Minister of Trans port and I would be delighted to take that under advisement. Thank you. Balanced Budgets Legislation Amendments Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): Mr.

Speaker, in Estimates on May 30, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) admitted that amend ments are currently being drafted for The Balanced Budget, Debt Repayment and Taxpayer Protection Act. During the last election the NDP became sudden converts of the concept of balanced budgets and our balanced budget legislation. When does the Premier intend to advise the people of Manitoba that his government is in fact planning amendments to the balanced budget legislation and to outline precisely what those amendments will be? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I do recall, in looking at the financial statements prepared by the independent financial institution after the last budget, that they did present something similar to the concern raised by the Auditor. They presented the amount of money that flowed as a second-time revenue from the Fiscal Stabilization Fund into the operating revenue, and they subtracted the amount of money that went to debt repayment. They came to the conclusion that that was over a hundred million dollars deficit in real terms that the former government ran in 1999-2000.

The same independent offices looked at the $90 million in interfund transfers from the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, the $96 million that is in our budget for debt repayment and the $5-million surplus and had this budget independently evaluated in a surplus situation rather than the situation last year. Those are some of the issues we have to straighten out, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Stefanson: Unfortunately, the Premier did not answer the question. He is following exactly the same process today of transferring money from the Fiscal Stabilization Fund as outlined in their budget.

But I want to ask the Premier: Is the Premier planning on amendments to the balanced budget legislation other than those required to deal with the pension liability, and when does he expect to outline and introduce those amendments? Is that going to be very shortly? Mr. Doer: Almost 50 percent of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, over the last five years, has been money that has been forwarded from the sale of public assets and moved in as operating revenues to the provincial government and then flowed out.

McKenzie Seed, Manitoba Data Services, the preferred shares in the Repap sale, the Manitoba Telephone System have all been as a result of deceit by the former government and assets that were sold on the basis of debt and in fact accumulated a major surplus. If 20 years from now, God forbid, these members are ever back in government, we are going to make it a lot more difficult for them to sell Manitoba Hydro and break the trust of Manitobans as they did with the Manitoba Telephone System. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, this is amazing not to get an answer to either question when this Premier and his party ran on a commitment to maintain the balanced budget legislation here in the province of Manitoba. I want to ask the Premier this afternoon: Today will he commit to maintaining penalties for Cabinet ministers, to the requirement to have a balanced budget each year and the requirement to hold ref erendums before increasing any major taxes as outlined in the current legislation? Will he make those commitments to Manitobans today? Mr.

Doer: We have made it very clear in the amendment we made to the balanced budget law and the statement I made on the five-pledge card

1932 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 that we will amend the balanced budget legislation to prohibit the sale of a Crown corporation in future being used as an operating revenue in the provincial government, something auditors from the left, the right and the centre agree is better financing than went on in the past. We certainly said, as one of our five pledges, that we will keep balanced budget legislation, but we are going to make those amendments that we just outlined. * (14:10 ) Flooding Red River Ice Jams Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): There has been a Jot of discussion recently about the International Joint Commission and its report The Next Flood· Getting Prepared. Not only are these concerns about flooding in the Red River Valley but also on the north side of Winnipeg and where the floodway joins the Red River at Lockport. Will the Minister of Conservation tell us what steps will be taken to deal with the problem of ice jams in the Red River in the Selkirk area and which have in the past caused much flooding and damage by backed-up floodwaters that are bound for Lake Winnipeg? Hon.

Oscar Latblin (Minister of Con servation): I would like to thank the Member for raising the issue. As of now, I do not have any definite plans as to how to address the issue of ice jams. We are, however, continuing to look at all the possible ways by which we can address the problem of ice jams. As soon as I am able to put together a plan, I will be glad to share it with the Member. Mr. Helwer: Will the Minister of Conservation tell us what steps will be taken to dredge the river at the mouth of the river and Lake Winnipeg in order to facilitate the flow of floodwaters? Mr. Latblin:.

I want to assure the Member that I take this issue very seriously. When the flood was happening, I made it a point to travel to Lockport, Selkirk and see first-hand for myself, even though I was in opposition at the time. But I just wanted to see to what extent the damage was that was created by the flood in 1997. I want to assure the Member that is part of our reviewing that we are doing. Once that plan is finished, again, I will gladly share it with the Member. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Manitobans with Disabilities Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I want to highlight our government's commitment to Manitobans with disabilities and their families. First, I want to recognize the Honourable Tim Sale, who was today named as Manitoba's first Minister responsible for Persons with Disabilities. I also want to draw to your attention some highlights from the 2000-200 1 provincial budget that include many initiatives of particular importance to Manitobans with disabilities and create a more inclusive Manitoba community.

Firstly, the income tax relief: by increasing the provincial family tax reductions for persons living with disabilities; then the extended Pharmacare, excluding coverage of new lifesaving drugs, palliative care drugs and Aricept trial for Alzheimer's patients; expanded home care services to provide community intravenous therapy and improve palliative care and more adults' daycare; an additional $675,0 00 in funding for mental health programs and enhanced access to community mental health services, including the new PACT program, or Program of Assertive Community Treatment; an additional $2.8 million in child care funding to integrate up to a thousand more children with disabilities into child care programs in our province; $800,000 expanded support for children's special services to provide families with respite; child development services and supplies; increased funding for supported living and vocational rehabilitation programs for adults with disabilities, the first time of increased funding in approximately a decade for this service.

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 1933 In addition, in February we announced the public school finances would increase by $6.4 million to fund special needs students in kindergarten to Grade 12. I also want to draw the House's attention to the appointment of Yvonne Peters, a lawyer who is blind, to the Human Rights Commission ofManitoba. One of the first duties of the new Minister responsible for Persons with Disabilities is $100,000 to open the Open Access Resource Centre which provides province-wide service for communication technologies. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ojibwa Language Programs Mr.

Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, last Saturday evening, my wife, Dora, and I had the pleasure of attending the Celebration of Our Language gathering at the Ginew School at Roseau River Anishinabe First Nation and Three Fires Society that sponsored the event. This event was a fundraiser for cultural activities that promote and maintain the Oj ibwa language. These include holding annual ceremonies at Roseau Rapids and sending representatives to the Three Fires Society's ceremonies at Bad River, Wisconsin; Minneapolis, Minnesota; Traverse City. Michigan; and Manitoulin Island in Onta rio.

These gatherings provide an opportunity for hundreds of Anishinabe people to use and celebrate the Oj ibwa language. It is encouraging to see that so many people are interested in preserving their language, and I congratulate them for tackling this challenging event, mastering the language so skilfully and for sharing this gift with others. Saturday evening's event, which included leaders from virtually all the communities surrounding the Anishinabe Nation, from Dominion City, Emerson, Altona, Gretna, Plum Coulee and Ste. Jean Baptiste, Letellier, were all represented at this fundraising event.

The Ginew School was truly a place of celebration. We enjoyed the fine meal, and then we were treated to a wide variety of entertainment, including singing, dancing and drumming, as well as a skit and some comedy. All the presentations were first-rate, and I know they were very well received. I would like to congratulate co-host Lawrence Henry of Roseau River Anishinabe First Nation, Carl Bird of the Peguis Anishinabe First Nation Tribe, along with the Roseau River Chief, Ed Hayden; Western Doorway Chief, Charlie Nelson; and all those involved in organizing this very special event.

North End Community Renewal Organization Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend a particularly in novative venture, the North End Community Renewal Corporation. It is a coalition of organizations working to rejuvenate the north end economically, socially and culturally. To this end, it is creating jobs, improving the quality and accessibility of housing, promoting safety and making the most of its cultural diversity.

The member organizations include: north end residents' associatiOns, businesses, aboriginal organizations, community service agencies, religious and fraternal groups and the Winnipeg Labour Council. These organizations joined forces because they realized that the various socioeconomic challenges the north end faces are linked, that change in one area will take hold only if coupled with changes elsewhere.

They realize, for instance, that improved housing means little if would-be owners do not have the kind of regular employment that allows them to meet mortgage payments and that there is no security of employment for these people if they lack job training. Businesses, in tum, cannot be expected to stay and provide jobs when safety concerns scare them away. Although the North End Renewal Corporation has been in operation for only a year and a half, it has already made a difference in the community. It has, for example, set up a renovation company to repair 10 derelict houses on Alfred A venue.

The company hires only people from the community and will offer the renovated houses to low-income residents on a

1934 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 rent-to-buy basis. Town halls and workshops on safety and community policing have given both the community and the Winnipeg police force better ideas of what measures need to be taken to make the north end safer.

A program has been set up to co-ordi nate the various services available to job seekers, and residents are being assisted by the Corporation in appealing unrealistically high property tax assessments. * (14 :20) To carry out its ambitious three-year renewal plan, the Corporation has enlisted the support of the Community Development Education Association, SEED Winnipeg, the Crocus Investment Fund, and the Mennonite Central Committee.

I wish the participants in this venture the very best in making the changes that they themselves want to make in their community and hope that their synergy will help give rise to a rejuvenated north end. Thank you. Seniors and Elders Month Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, as members of this House are aware, June has been proclaimed Seniors Month. It is a pleasure to rise today and give thanks to our seniors who donate so much of themselves to this community.

The dedication of June as Seniors Month allows Manitobans to honour our senior pop ulation for their contributions and their ac complishments throughout the entire month. This recognition should continue throughout the year. Seniors are dynamic individuals who con tribute immediately and immensely to the fabric of our society through the work they do. Seniors contribute immeasurably to the quality of life that we enjoy in Manitoba. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the benefits that so many communities receive due to the tireless efforts of our senior community.

The commitment and dedication of this vital sector of the population continually amazes me. I am awe-struck by the time and energy that our senior population dedicates to various projects within Manitoba. Since seniors continue to be a vibrant, active segment of our society, without their continued willingness to help others through their volunteerism, many services and organizations could not continue. Unfortunately, seniors do not receive the recognition that they properly deserve for their hard work. Too often we forget how much we owe to our seniors.

They have earned our respect and our gratitude and should be recognized and honoured, not just for the month of June, but each and every day. I hope all Manitoba seniors take the opportunity to enjoy the various activities that are being held throughout Manitoba to honour Seniors Month. I would ask all members of the House to join me in applauding the efforts of seniors in Manitoba for the contributions that they have made to this great province and this great city here in Manitoba. Thank you. Eriksdale Community Initiatives Mr. Tom NevakshonotT (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, I rise in the House today to pay tribute to the town of Eriksdale, a small community located on No. 6 Highway approximately 100 miles north of Winnipeg. Despite tough economic times in rural Manitoba, largely as a result of significant changes in the farming industry, here is one country town that has no intention of withering on the vine. Instead, the people have gathered together and initiated a number of pro jects designed to make their community a more desirable place to visit or indeed to settle in.

Some fine examples of their initiatives that I observed there on my tour of the town last week include restoration of Magie's Cabin. Magie was an escaped convict from the Stony Mountain Penitentiary who hid out in the vicinity of the community several decades ago. Prior to his recapture, his exploits were quite memorable, and the site of his hideout has now been restored. A program of outdoor murals depicting the history of the development of the area; restoration of the old Anglican church and its

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 1935 conversion into a museum where many local artifacts have now been gathered and put on display; the beginning of the restoration of the old creamery, an excellent reminder of days gone by when agriculture was much more locally based; the establishment of a Campus Manitoba classroom designed to serve the surrounding area and offer the youth there an alternative to leaving home in order to get their education; plans to upgrade their curling rink and hockey arena to a level where it will be able to offer services year-rou nd, including such events as horse and cattle shows reminiscent of events held in the past; and finally an ambitious plan to convert the abandoned railroad bed into a treed promenade with a fountain and a memorial to those who served in the military in defence of this country.

The spirit of this small town should be held up as a model to all. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before going back to the Committee of Supply this afternoon, I wish to announce that the Law Amendments Committee will meet on Wednesday, June 7, at 7 p.m., to continue consideration of Bills 11 and 20. Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed, the House will resume consideration of the Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING * (1 4:30 ) Mr.

Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the Committee last sat, it had been agreed to have a global discussion on Resolution 16.1, with the exception of 16.1(

a) Minister's Salary. Is that still the will of the Committee? [Agreed } Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Chair, I asked Hansard for a replay of my last comments. I do not remember them precisely, but I guess I will continue in general terms. We were talking about the issue of post-seco ndary education on the administration side and the amalgamation of the Deputy Minister of Post-Seco ndary Education with the Deputy Minister of Education. In addition to that, the Minister advised that one position has been deleted in an overall sense, and that was the position of Mr.

Jim Glen, who had retired earlier, which was vacant. My thrust was that if we are to maintain the level of post-secon dary education and enhance it, indeed my recollection is that the universities have encouraged, post-secon dary institutions have encouraged government to give them at least a deputy minister who can respond more directly to their challenges and their issues. Going back in time, that is precisely why the former administration did indeed create a deputy ministry of Post-Secon dary Education.

This government, as I had indicated previously, ran on a commitment to enhance the prominence of post-second ary education and opportunities for youth. Yet, when I look at what they have done with regard to the reorganization of the Department, they have basically said to universities, and these are my words, that they are not important enough to warrant the services of a separate deputy minister's of fice. I think this is sad, Mr.

Chair, because we see, I think, that there are going to be less services provided to universities as a result of the fact that the staff that were in that deputy minister's office, I understand, have been redeployed. My question to the Minister has to begin with finding out exactly what has happened to those various administrative positions in the Deputy Minister's office and where they have been incorporated with the rest of the Department. Under the Deputy Minister of

1936 LEGISLA TIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 Training and Continuing Education, we had, for example, the Corporate Initiatives ADM, Mr. Jim Bakken, who was responsible for that area. I would like to know where that particular position has gone, not the individual, the position, who is now responsible for that position and where it is embodied in the Department. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): I would like to thank the Member for his comments.

In terms of the one or two deputy ministers, one for public schools and K to Senior 4 or post-secon dary, which began his remarks, I know that over the years, it went back and forth on this particular issue. It is a matter of judgment and the Member may very well be right. In the future, that may be indeed what does occur. We made a judgment, as a new government this past year, to streamline the operations. Certainly at this time at least, it has worked very, very well. We have a strong post-second ary education team in Dr. Leo LeTourneau, Dr.

Curtis Nordman and in the ADM, Pat Rowantree, and certainly I work closely together with them and with the Deputy. They work closely with the Deputy in all decision making. It has worked very well to date although I acknowledge, as the Member indicates, that it is a matter of judgment and it may well change in the future as it has changed in the past. So I appreciate those comments, and from time to time I would sure like to have another deputy as well, but it has worked very well, and we do have a very strong team. With regard to the specific question about Mr. Bakken, I would refer the Member to the flow chart.

Mr. Bakken and the Corporate Initiatives position is still in existence. It is in the upper right-hand section, reporting directly to the Deputy Minister, just in the upper right comer there. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, so in other words, this position has just been moved to report to the Deputy rather than specifically to the Deputy of Post- Secondary Education. Mr. Caldwell: That is correct. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chair, to the Minister of Education, the positions that were responsible for the various areas in post-seco ndary education, have they all been moved over to report now directly to the over-all Deputy Minister, or have some of those positions been deemed redundant and have been eliminated, or have the individuals in those areas been assigned other duties? Mr. Caldwell: At this point in time, Mr. Chair, all the positions continue to exist and report through as per the flow chart, through the Deputy Minister, and the various ADMs. * (14: 40) Mr. Derkach: So, Mr.

Chair, to the Minister, then the various directors who were reporting to the Deputy Minister of Post-Se condary Education before, are they now reporting to the ADM for Post-Seco ndary Education? Is that an assumption, or, as I read your flow chart, is that now the way that the Department has been reorganised under ADM Pat Rowantree? Mr. Caldwell: That is essentially correct. Mr.

Derkach: So, when the Minister tells us that he has streamlined the Department, the only change that he has actual ly made has been to eliminate the Deputy Minister's position on post secondary education and replace that with an ADM for Post-Seco ndary Education and create an ADM responsible for the Admin and Finance area? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, not entirely. The streamlining, as is noted, is correct. We have one deputy as opposed to two. Another ma jor change is the full-time chair of COPS has been eliminated to substantial cost-saving and a part time chairperson appointed as opposed to full time.

We have a full-time executive director of the Council on Post-Sec ondary Education. There is also the ADM of Special Education has been moved to a programming role. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, there have been some changes with regard to the various components that report to the Deputy Minister. Now, the nine divisions that used to report through to the Deputy Minister of Post-S econdary Education

June I, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 1937 has been reduced to eight divisions, I believe. They report to the ADM of post-secondary education. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, could I get the question repeated, please? Mr. Derkach: Maybe I will rephrase the question, Mr. Chair. Out of the nine divisions that were reporting to the Deputy Minister of Post-Secondary Education, we now have eight divisions reporting to the ADM, instead of the Deputy Minister. The one director has now been moved up to report directly to the Deputy Minister rather than reporting through to the Deputy Minister through the ADM. Mr.

Caldwell: That is essentially correct. I should note also the Learning Technologies co ordinator that existed in the previous year's flow chart has been cut, and that is in addition to my comments regarding the full-time chair of COPS moving to part-time in the ADM special ed. Mr. Derkach: Can the Minister advise what the thinking behind elim inating and reducing the time allotment in those two areas, what the theme behind that is. Mr. Caldwell: Which two areas? Mr. Derkach: The areas referred to by the Minister of the COPS and Learning Technologies individual. Mr.

Caldwell: I will address first the COPS position, and then I will address the Learning Technologies. The Council on Post-Secondary Education, which is the body primarily responsible for decisions on funding post secondary institutions in the province of Manitoba and programming, formerly had a full time chairperson as well as a full-time director.

The cost associated and the time allotment associated with that particular role, that is the chairperson's role, in terms of the work that the chair had in convening meetings and conducting meetings of the Council on Post-Secondary Education, and the role of the executive director as the primary admini strator of the council's decisions was deemed upon review to be superfluous, that is, the chairperson's role was far less than one would expect of a typical full- time employee in terms of what the chair was responsible for.

Upon the assessment of the Department, it was deemed that the work of the chair in terms of chairing the council and maintaining the day to-day operations of the council was primarily the responsibility of the Executive Director, Doctor LeTourneau, and it was deemed that a substantial cost saving could be found by making the chairperson's role that cf a part-time position as opposed to full time.

As importantly, it was found that the full-time responsibil ities, there were not enough responsibilities to warrant a full-time position at the chair's position, so the determination was made in that regard to move from a full-time position to a part-time position at substantial cost savings as well as a recognition of the workload and responsibil ity of that position.

With regard to the Learning Technologies position, the co-ordinator of Learning Technologies, it was felt that there was a duplication in that role primarily because the work is now being done by all senior managers in the Department and also by MERLIN. So it was felt that we would not require a separate person in that particular position. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I am going to focus my attention on one of these at a time. First of all, if I could address the area of the chair of Post-Secondary Education on the council, now, that position was held I think by Mr. Dawson, who retired I believe or was retired? Mr.

Caldwell: That is right. Mr. Chair, Doctor Dawson's term expired. Mr. Derkach: He was replaced by a Mr. Don Robertson? Mr. Caldwell: That is correct. Don Robertson is the chair of the Council on Post-Secondary Education. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Robertson is not a full-time chair. He is a part-time chair, as I understand it, according to the Minister's comments, and his remuneration, I guess, would be reflected in the time spent.

1938 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 I am just wondering what his remuneration is compared to the remuneration that was paid to the full-time Director of the Council on Post Secondary Education. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, we could we can get that information under 16.8, if that is agreeable. I have not got it in hand. There is a substantial difference in the remuneration levels between 16.8. The chair now operates on a per diem if that is of any- Mr. Derkach: That is fine. Mr.

Chair, this is still within the whole area of Administration and Finance, because it is part of that, but I am not hung up on the specific numbers. We can go into those later. I think the Minister basically did give me some indication that instead of this being remuneration on a full-time basis or a half -time basis, it is now done on a per diem where the individual was paid for the meetings that he or she chairs or the subcommittees or whatever might happen in that regard plus, I would assume, out-of-pocket expenses. Mr. Caldwell: Yes, that is correct.

The reason that I deferred to 16.8 is just so that we are completely accurate in what we state. * (14 :50) Mr. Derkach: In the learning technologies area, learning technologies was and, I would assume, is a fairly important area for the whole Department of Education.

Although the Minister says that it has now been spread out through the various divisions of the Department, I have to contend that this is an area that needs some profile within the Department because, when we talk about technology, I know the Minister and the Government and the Opposition have a differing point of view on how technologies can be and should be incorporated into our schools in a general sense. YNN, to me, is sort of the one area of technology where we have a sharp difference of opinion in how that is administered in our schools.

Yet, when you look at the admini stration of the Department, we now have elim inated that Learning Technologies co ordinator and that position and have sort of dispersed it through the divisions of the Department, as the Minister says. I cannot help but think that this waters down the whole area of technology in education. Yet, if we look at where the employment opportunities are in today's world, if we look at where the opportunities for the future are in Manitoba and in Canada and in the world, no matter what magazine you pick up, you will read that, indeed, the high-tech area is where we should be.

The high-tech area is where the jobs of the future are going to be. The high-tech area is the one that is the emerging economy for the world and for us. Mr. Chair, I think there is some sadness in the fact that we have probably embarked on giving some profile-in my view, probably not speedily enough, and I guess we can always lament about that, that we wish we had the dollars and the capa bility to enhance these areas much more quickly than they are. I think that we have done a disservice to the education field by elim inating this position. Now, the individual in question is not what I am arguing for.

I am arguing for profiling technology in our education system by putting a co-ordinator in its place. This afternoon, we had the opportunity to listen to a member give a statement with regard to the government giving a profile to a sector of our society-and it is the people who have disabilities in our province-by creating a responsibility for that sector of our society within a ministry so that indeed there is attention paid to that issue. I would have to commend the Government for doing that. I do not think there is anything wrong with that. I think that is a good way to move.

But, conversely, if you look at what has happened here or what appears to have happened-and I will not make a judgment on this until we hear the full statement of the Minister-it appears that indeed we have taken that profile and we have taken that focus away from the field of education. Now, I might be wrong, and I hope I am, because I do hope that somehow there is still a focus for the area of learning technologies in our schools. I alluded to this in my opening remarks when I said that one of the areas I see missing in the Budget and in the Estimates of the

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANlTOBA 19 39 Department of Education is that whole area of technology, of being able to deliver programs to people who live outside the urban centre. During my time in government, I have to tell you that I worked very hard and fought very hard for the people who lived outside of the urban centres. I know the Minister does not live full time in the city and neither do I. We do come from rural parts of this province. The Minister comes from a smaller urban setting.

I come from a predominantly rural agrarian area where students do not have the same opportunities, and I can talk about the fact that students who go to university from rural Manitoba have significant costs over and above students who live in our urban centres, because they not only have the cost of transportation back and forth from their communities. they have the cost of finding accommodation to live in the urban centres where many students do not have that cost.

So the cost for rural students is significantly higher, and one of the ways of addressing that would have been through the enhancement and delivery of educational services and programs through technology. The technology is avai lable. Today, you can, in fact, get a doctorate degree from some of the prestigious universities of the world through distance education. You can get a master's degree through distance delivery. In our province, it becomes much more important. because of the demographics and the large area and the small population that we face in this province.

For those reasons, and many, many others, the area of learning technologies needs to have a focus and needs to have some attention paid to it, and we tried to do that. I guess Dr. Levin knows better than anyone the many different approaches that one can take with delivering educational programs through technology, but, indeed,·! think that we need to continue to build on the areas that were started, and we need to continue to ensure that the quality of education that is delivered through distance deliv ery and through technology is indeed better than it is.

In addition to this, the ability to give students access to technology is also important. For that reason, we argue with government that YNN is not simply putting commercials into classrooms or giving the corporate world access to our classrooms, but, indeed, it gives students the ability to hear other students give a perspective on issues like teen pregnancy, like builying in the classroom, other public service issues that relate specifically to young people, which are of value to them. Additionally, it provides current affairs programs and world news programs to students.

Now, the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale) in the House said, well, they can get this from Channel 5 or any of the other channels on television, and perhaps that is true, but you have to remember that those channels all carry commercials. Here is a channel that does not carry any commercials anymore. As a matter of fact, the contract has been changed to address those very concerns that the Minister had. It is a technology being brought into the classroom, because now the company is prepared to provide $200,000 worth, or thereabouts, of equipment to the school that enters into that contract.

Now, I know that the Minister can hang his hat on an election promise, but if all the con cerns that resulted in that election promise have been addressed, then I believe the Minister should try to encourage his colle agues to take another look at this to see whether there are enough benefits in this to warrant the con tinuation of those contracts and to allow that technology to be placed into the classroom.

Perhaps the Minister has other ways of doing this, but I do not think that we should ignore, just because of a promise that was made, and perhaps today the issues surrounding that promise have been addressed, that the Minister should in all good conscience revisit that area and allow for broader minds to prevail as we look at delivering programs to education. So specifically with regard to the learning technology area, I would like to ask the Minister how specifically he has now moved to incorporate the responsibilities under this co ordinator into other areas? * (15: 00) Mr.

Caldwell: I would like to thank the Member for his comments. Certainly the learning technologies commitment with the Government

19 40 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 of Manitoba remains high. Campus Manitoba continues to function, and I know that schools are developing new agreements to develop distance courses. I should mention as well and acknowledge the Member's efforts as minister to start Campus Manitoba, which was then First Year Distance Education, which was a very extraordinarily innovative and progressive initiative by the former government and by the Member. Certainly we in government acknow ledge the very good work that was done by the Member in that initiative. So I think that is worthy of putting on the record.

Certainly we respect that vision considerably today. The Government of Manitoba is currently doing a review of the Manitoba Educational and Research Learning Innovation Network, MERLIN, under the special operating agency legislation to look at an enhanced role for MERLIN and their role indeed over the next five years in providing learning technologies. We would agree with the Member on his comments about the importance of distance education and learning technologies in rural areas and will continue to work assiduously to enhance rural access.

I should also note with regard to rural students, which the Member notes that we both come from western Manitoba from areas that are substantially smaller than the city of Winnipeg and with substantially fewer opportunities because we are from smaller populated areas. The Manitoba Bursary Program will substantially help rural students with their costs in pursuing post-secondary education in the province or Manitoba. As well, the 10 % tuition reduction was announced recently for September 2000.

We will continue to work on programs that enhance accessibil ity for all Manitobans but that particularly impact upon rural students. As the Member notes, rural students do have to come into the city, whether that be Brandon, The Pas or Winnipeg to pursue post-secondary studies. Primarily they are at a satellite campus around the province but primarily it involves a relocation for rural students. So we are very sensitive, as a government, to the needs of rural students and will continue to pursue initiatives along the recently announced bursary program and the tuition reduction.

The Council on Learning Technologies, we are actively seeking their advice on technology issues and continue to pursue advice where we can from agencies and from individuals in the field of learning technology.

I think it is important to note, though, in terms of the Learning Technologies co-ordinator, which position we are discussing right now, that there was a strong feeling within the Department and within government that there was a duplication of the role in that senior managers-and we look at it as a broadening in fact of learning technology and understandings of learning technologies as we expect our senior managers to have an understanding of learning technologies in managing their day-to-day operations.

We expect that learning technologies and an awareness of learning technologies and an awareness of the importance of learning technologies will permeate the Department. With the existence of the Manitoba Educational and Research Innovation Network, MERLIN, as part of the integral operations of the Department of Education and Training in the province, it was felt that a separate person was superfluous. We would rather have an institutional culture where learning technologies were part of everyone's responsibility and everyone's obligation. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chair, I have difficulty in accepting the premise that if you do not have a focal point for Learning Technologies, that every other manager in the Department should carry some responsibility, knowledge and expertise I guess to Learning Technologies. I think that is a given. I think that, with a co-ordinator at the head, it is still expected that other areas of the Department would have expertise, knowledge, would be well informed, would be enhancing the whole area of learning technologies. know perhaps the Department, the Government had difficulty with the par ticular indivi dual in that position.

That is one thing. But to elimin ate that division, that co-ordination unit, from Government to me is not the right way to go because, yes, the Deputy Mi nister can assume that responsibility, but how many res ponsibilities can the Deputy Minister assume and still do justice to his job, with the greatest of respect for Dr. Levin, because I know he is a

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 19 41 very capable individual. Let us be honest, there is reason for putting in managers and co ordinators throughout the Department. I do not think this is different. We can put that same argument that the Minister has just put forward for any of the other divisions. Let us take, for example, I am a very staunch supporter of a co-ordinator for the Native Education Directorate. I was happy to have Juliette Sabot take that position. who is extremely capable in that area.

Let us, for example, assume that, and which should be the case, every other division of the Department should have some expertise, should have some experience, and should have some abilities in this area. You can make that same argument for that particular division. So I say to the Minister that the co ordinator, I would even elevate that to a director's position for Learning Technologies. That is how strongly I feel about the fact that Learning Technologies is an important element in the Department of Education. So I would argue for the Minister to reallocate resources.

Give it another name if you have to in order to be able to, I guess, exercise some credibil ity in this whole area. But I would say that that to me is an extremely important area and should not be elim inated from the flowchart and from the divisions of the Department. To me, if you elim inate that, nobody in the Department has the responsibility to carry that ball for that area.

Everybody has some responsibility, but there is nobody there to co-ordinate what goes on in one division of the Department and what goes on in another division of the Department and what goes on now that you have amalgamated the post-secondary and K to 12 side, what goes on in those two divisions, for example, in terms of learning technologies. The one way that I think that can be achieved is, in fact, through that kind of a position in the Department. Now, I guess we could create others and argue for them, but this is one that I think some work had been done in.

Instead of dispersing that and going backwards, if you like, we could enhance this by having it revisited. I have to argue that I believe that the Minister needs to revisit this position, needs to take another look at it with his staff to ensure that there is a focal point for learning technologies so that schools, so that people who are working with kids out there in the parts of Manitoba, whether it is in the city or in the rural areas, have someone in the Department of Education and Training that they can go to who is going to address those concerns with other divisions of the Department.

You know how difficult it is being in the education field to get answers sometimes to a specific problem, because it is easy to say, well, that is really not our responsibility, that belongs over there, and you run over to the other area. That is what was happening with native education before. That is why we put that Directorate of Native Education in place. I think the current deputy minister was aware of that, but it was too watered down before. It was too easy to have non-answers, because people ran from one area to the other and they could not get an answer.

Once we gave it some profile, and I am not saying this to try and take some credit for it, I am just saying that because at that time the wisdom I think was within the bureaucracy and, if you like, the people who worked in the Department who said this is an area that we need to have a focal point on. So therefore the directorship was created. *( 15 :10 ) I think no different in this area. Beca use this is the emerging area for the new century, this is the area where the jobs are going to be found. This is the area where students need that information. Mr.

Minister, I have to tell you that I see a vast difference in the quality of education in the technology area in the urban centre as compared to centres outside of Winnipeg. Within the city of Winnipeg the divisions have resources where they can hire the expertise to be able to deliver the highest quality I think that we can afford in terms of the learning technology area. As a matter of fact, because of the proximity to some of the companies, school divisions can even get access to equipment from companies that they can bring into their schools which is not available in parts of remote and rural Manitoba.

So, when I argue for this position, I do it on the basis that we have to provide for those people who cannot have ready

19 42 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 access to this kind of technology an ability to be able to access this technology. Yes, YNN was one. It was giving some hope to some schools that do not have the resources, their divisions do not have the resources, to be able to provide that kind of technology and that kind of equipment into the schools. Through YNN they were able to reach in and get some of that equipment. You might say, well, that is a false way to provide equipment, and we can have a philosophical argument about that, but at least it is a way to have students access that equipment.

So I argue for that for those students. because if you look at the resources of divisions, they vary massively. I know that the Deputy Minister has got his hands full, with regard to that education formula. We wrestled with it. We changed it somewhat. It has been altered since then.

I do not know if there is a formula out there that indeed addresses all the needs of students in Manitoba, because of the diversities of the province, but I do say that, in this area of learning technologies, I would argue very strongly that it is wrong to eliminate that area and to say that it is looked at by other divisions of the Department, I think. I ask the Minister whether or not he can not justify reinstating that division, not the individual, I am talking about that division. Put in there who you want, because you are government today.

Find the expert that you want to put in there who will do the job for you. But indeed, put somebody in there who can deliver the programs, who can deliver the leadership so that indeed there is a focal point to this area. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chairman, I certainly do respect the Member for Russell's comments in this matter. As I said earlier, as a former Minister of Education, we certainly acknowledge and appreciate the effort that the Member made in terms of starting Campus Manitoba, and his passion for this area of education and training is very well respected by me and well known.

I want to address a number of points that the Member made. I know I had the pleasure of actually teaching with his brother in Wawanesa a number of years ago, and Wawanesa is part of the Souris Valley School Division. Certainly in Souris Valley, the learning technology and distance education capacity of that particular division is the best out of the five or six divisions or the schools I have taught with in that part of the province, certainly the best facilities, the best equipment, in fact, the envy of many other divisions around the province.

I know in Souris Valley and Souris and Wawanesa that distance education and learning technology is very, very high on their list of priorities in terms of delivery to rural areas. There are, we acknowledge, differences in capacity throughout the province, and we strive towards equity. But it is not just Winnipeg or the larger urbans that have that capacity, because as the Member knows Wawanesa and Souris Valley-[inter jection] The Member acknow ledges it. That is true. The Government did put it in. and it serves a very, very positive purpose in that part of the province.

I am familiar with that personally from teaching in those classrooms. I will acknowledge the Member's comments. There is obviously a difference of opinion on this particular matter in terms of the viewpoint that this government comes from wanting to distribute it throughout the senior management, the respons ibility and the advocacy throughout the senior management levels. However, I will acknowledge that the Member has some concerns that I take seriously, and over time we will look at this in the Department of Education and Training.

If progress is not satisfactory, I think that we have an obligation as government to look at how to move it ahead more vigorously. So I will acknowledge the concerns of the Member and certainly be cognizant of them as we move forward. Mr. Derkach: So, specifically, was the co ordinator of this unit redeployed? Mr. Caldwell: No. The contract ended. Mr. Derkach: Did the contract end, or was it terminated?

June 1, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 19 43 Mr. Caldwell: It ended. Mr. Derkach: Is the Minister saying there was a termination date on the contract? Was it a term contract? Mr. Caldwell: I have just been advised that the contract is not here, so we will provide that information at our next sitting. Mr. Derkach: I guess I asked the question because I want to know whether this area was in fact terminated simply because it was a way of getting rid of the co-ordinator of that unit. Mr.

Caldwell: No, the decision was made based upon the philosophy, as I outlined earlier, that we felt as government that there was a duplication in the role in that MERLIN as an SOA was performing a service that placed learning technologies in a very focussed sense in Education and Training and is importantly, if not more importantly, we felt that we wanted as government to have the role of learning technology advocacy and learning technology advancement placed in the hands of senior managers, as part of the expectation of the job that they would do as senior managers. Mr. Derkach: So, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister told us that the vacant position in Admin and Finance was not filled as well, but that has been an area that has been also changed. Mr. Caldwell: The functions of Administration and Finance continue to exist. Finance and Administration Director and Management Information Services report to the Deputy Minister. Schools Finance and Education Administration Services report to the ADM of Schools Division, Dr. Gerald Farthing. Mr. Derkach: So is the Minister telling me that the Admin and Finance Division has been split?

Is that what has happened now instead of ha ving an ADM for the Admin and Finance Division, that indeed now the Director, who is with us today, is going to share that responsibility with another director? Mr. Caldwell: No. The rules of the Ad ministration and Finance Section, Finance and Administration Director and Management Information Services concerned with depart mental and finance and administration issues, schools finance and education administration services have been concerned more with these public schools operations. *( 1 5: 20) Mr.

Derkach: So the ADM position in Admin and Finance is eliminated and will remain thus, and that function has now been amalgamated into the Deputy Minister of Education's offices, I understand. Is that correct? Mr. Caldwell: The aspect which is responsible for the finance administration of the Department does report to the Deputy Minister. Mr. Derkach: That is directly? Mr. Caldwell: Yes. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I will suspend my questions for a few minutes and allow the official critic to ask some questions, who has some questions in this area as well. Mrs.

Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Could the Minister please explain? I do not see the Sustainable Development Initiative on the chart. Mr. Chair. Could the Minister please indicate where that fits into this overall plan? Mr. Caldwell: That capacity reports through the ADM of Schools Division, Gerald Farthing. Mrs. Smith: As you know, sustainable development is part of the round table, has participated in the Round Table on Sustainable Development.

I was a part of that, Minister, last year when we travelled across the province looking at how to build sustainable communities, and we looked at education, we looked at finance, we looked at environment, we looked in a number of areas. Could the Minister please give us some ideas as to how he envisions this sustainable-! feel this is an extremely important component in our ministry here because it is looking to the future.

I think through education now we are having to look at issues other than or including environmental issues, including finance, including education, so it is all amalgamated within the total way that students

19 44 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 are taught and brought up. You can see that, a relatively short while ago, I know that when I grew up there was no recycling of environmental, you know, the cans, all sorts of things like that. When I went around with the group on the round table, with Christine McDonald, who is part of this Sustainable Development Initiative, I felt it to be very progressive, a very needed aspect of the education component here in Manitoba. Could the Minister please outline his vision of what he feels this particular area will be doing in the future? Mr.

Caldwell: Well, two points I suppose for details on the aspect of sustainable development. I am sure we will get to those under 16 .2(a). As for the broader question in terms of the flow chart, as in the case of learning technologies, it is our intention to have as part of the institutional culture the Department of Education be sustainable development issues. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, I do not see the actual Sustainable Development Initiative on this flow chart. Will the Minister please clarify where has it been placed specifically? Mr. Caldwell: It is within the Schools Program Branch under Dr. Gerald Farthing.

Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, we will be addr essing that then, and you said 16 .2. We will go through that? Mr. Caldwell: 16 .2(a). Mrs. Smith: Thank you. What I would like to go back to at this point is the learning technologies that my colleague, Mr. Derkach, talked about so eloquently. Looking at the view that we have to the future, learning technologies encompasses a great deal of communication between schools, programs, initiative, and it cannot be taken lightly. I know that in a lot of the schools they have particular initiatives going on right now, and I want to speak in particular to YNN .

I know that philosophically we do have a difference of opinion about YNN, and I guess today I would like to take this opportunity to build a case, as it were, for YNN. I realize that it is very hard, when you make an election promise, to go back on it, but I do think that you are very mindful of the students and very mindful of what is really going on in the schools. With YNN , I have noted that the schools have listened very carefully to what you have to say. They have been very mindful of your concerns that you have.

I would like the Minister to pay attention because I am trying to make a point here, and I think it is something that we are going to revisit and we have to work on together. I think the schools have been very mindful of what the Minister has had to say. They have taken very seriously his concerns, and his concerns were very valid. I would have had to agree with him in terms of the kinds of things going on during the school day. I guess I am personally fearful of it becoming more of a political football.

I would rather like to sit down and take a very close look at this aspect of learning technologies, at the aspect of YNN sort of as a partnership because it is a move to the future. I would agree with the Minister we have to be very mindful and very careful not to let the advertising and that kind of thing go into the classrooms. 1 also believe the Minister is open to looking at things because I know one of the comments the Minister made in the House was that he was very open, had an open-door policy.

Now that we are here in Estimates talking about the hopes and the visions and the plans that the Minister and myself both have for the students of Manitoba, I would like to say that careful consideration has to be given to the fact that we are going into a new era and that we have to work together to make things better for the students. 1 know the Minister worked with the formula and produced a budget based on the philosophies that the Minister felt were near and dear to his heart and felt that he was doing the best he could.

However, when we look at the financial aspect of it but more importantly when we look at the business partnerships that will have to be forged in the future with schools and with the business community and with parents and with the students, YNN is certainly, in my

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 19 45 opmton, a very viable way of making that happen. Two hundred thousand dollars worth of technology is a great deal of support for schools, and I think that very respectfully looking at it, I can see how the principals, the trustees and the parents involved, as I said before, took very mindful consideration into the fact that advertisements should not happen when students were exposed to them. We talked about today in the House the fact that the contract is being changed, Mr.

Chair, the fact that the Minister has been listened to and the fact that they have respectfully altered because they felt that what he was saying was extremely valid, I would make a case, as it were, to the Minister for YNN , providing that the school divisions choose that. I do not think YNN is good for everybody. I just think it is a choice, and those choices are based on needs, student needs, those choices are based on what they have to have for school resources. * (15 :30) I can appreciate and understand it is very hard to backtrack, Mr.

Chair, when decisions have been made, but I am also confident that our minister is open-minded and is looking at all the aspects of it. I look at this as part of the learning technologies. In my mind, I saw some of the programs that went on through Learning Technologies when I was working through Manitoba Education and Training. I was very impressed with the positive impact it had for students.

So my question to the Minister would be: Is there any possibility that we could sit down and take a very close look at all the aspects and put the Learning Technologies back in with the different components in there, YNN being one of them, as a possibility for the future? Could the Minister elaborate on that or give me some ideas of where he is at in that aspect? Mr.

Caldwell: As I indicated earlier, we are determined to have an institutional culture in Education and Training whereby learning technologies are part of the daily work and part of senior managers and part of the advocacy and understanding of senior managers in the day-to day operations of the Department of Education and Training. In fact, we desire that learning technologies become a hallmark of every member of the civil service in Education and Training.

Certainly it is our intent to have learning technologies enhanced in the province of Manitoba within a context which respects the integrity of the classroom and the integrity of the public school system in the province of Manitoba. As I said earlier, I certainly respect the role that the Member for Russell had in placing learning technologies very firmly at the centre of education and training in the province of Manitoba during his tenure as the Minister and that legacy continues to be with us today, that very positive legacy continues to be with us today.

Over time, as I indicated earlier, it is certainly the intent of the Department of Education and Training to be a dynamic and responsive department within government and if progress is not satisfactory in terms of the philosophy of making learning technologies integral of the operations of the Department as a whole and the understanding in institutional culture of the Department as a whole, if progress is not sati sfactory we will look at how to move that agenda ahead, the learning technologies agenda ahead. Mrs. Smith: Mr.

Chair, could the Minister perhaps comment also on the possibility of building YNN in as part of those technologies while being very, very mindful of not having the advertisements in the classrooms and being very mindful of the fact, I guess, that school division autonomy is something that we have always been very careful to maintain? I know that the Minister does respect the autonomy of the school division. That is not in question. I believe that this is something that the Minister feels very strongly about.

However, there is an increasing call across the province for the learning technologies and for YNN to be a part of the school-based environment or culture as it were, so if the Minister could comment on it specifically, I would appreciate that very much. Mr. Caldwell: It is truly not my intent to advocate for any individual corporation, nor do I think it should be something that the Department

19 46 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 of Education and Training should do. I think that in terms of involvement in the public school system by businesses, by organizations, by advocacy groups in general, those sorts of partnerships where they respect the integrity of the classroom are very, very positive. I certainly do not want to, and will not, advocate for individual corporations. That is a very strongly held belief of government. In terms of enhancing learning technology in the schools of the province of Manitoba, it is something that we have as a government a very strong commitment to.

That commitment remains high. It builds upon initiatives, as I mentioned earlier. undertaken by the Member for Russell during his tenure as the Minister. I think it is important to note that we desire to have the institutional culture of the Department reflect very fundamentally an appreciation and advocacy for learning technologies in the schools of the province of Manitoba. That is the view that the Government is taking. We desire all of the civil service in Education and Training to make that a part of their daily understanding of their role in the Department.

We certainly expect right now our senior managers to have that as part of their daily work. I think it is important to note and put on the record that there are somewhere over 700 schools in the province of Manitoba, only eight of which have entered into contracts with the corporation that the Member advocates for. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, I certainly appreciate the Minister's comments and I would agree with the Minister that Manitoba Education and Training should not favour and go with one specific corporation. I am not talking about one specific corporation.

I am talking about learning technologies and I am talking about the whole realm and aspect of learning technologies, learning technologies as part of what has to be utilized in a global market. We are educating our students now in our schools to be very careful to prepare for the global market, and in the future I can see that we are going to have to partner with business, we are going to have to partner with organizations, we are going to have to partner with health care, with Child and Family Services. We are going to have to change our paradigms and move out into the new aspect.

I would totally agree with the Minister in terms of not having a desire to pick one or more corporations and saying these are our favoured corporations. I am talking rather about building partnerships so we can shore up the education system and so we can empower our students to learn and take advantage of some of the things that they have to of f er. For years we have had Coca-Cola and milk and all sorts of advertisements in the school gym, and we have been very careful that we have not let one of those companies monopolize what we are doing in the school system. Mr.

Chair, I would ask that the Minister take a very, very close look and make some comments further on the record. We are into the new millennium now going into the 21s t century, and we are having to forge partnerships that perhaps we have not ever had to do bef ore. Along with that, I would agree, Minister, there is a set of rules, and the rules are that the corporations do not infringe on the student body. I think that is why, back to YNN , when you made a very, I thought, insightful comment that the advertisements should not be during school time.

I can appreciate that so much, but right now looking at the quite honest benefits that we have in terms of the $200,000 and the supports that the schools and the students have, that has been a significant plus for school divisions. * (15 :40) I know that you have made the comment that learning technologies is, and will be, an integral part of the future, and along with the learning technologies there is not only going to be YNN but there will be other aspects as well. I will take note that in the last election one of the promises was that every child would have an e mail address.

I could see why that would be something that you would like to take a look at. I know we have not heard much more of it now, but within learning technologies I can see all of these aspects being incorporated. You know, we might sit back now and we might say this is something that we just cannot have. I would rather sit back and say this is out there. It is an aspect of support that we are going to have to

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 19 47 need for our students. I would like the Minister to comment very specifically if in the learning technologies he could see very clearly how this could be accomplished without the things that have already been mentioned. Could the Minister comment on whether or not he would be open to taking a look at it with all the partners? Mr. Caldwell: Certainly partnerships are good.

Certainly there are innumerable partnerships between schools, school divisions and members of the corporate community and non-profit community throughout Manitoba, throughout the country for that matter. Partnerships are good. We, certainly as a government, believe in partnerships. We must be extraordinarily careful about the role of profit-making in education. It is certainly something that we are cognizant of in government in our deliberations.

Students in our public school system are often perceived or can be perceived and have been perceived and are perceived as a captive market for advertising messages, and it is certainly not the Government's intent to have the schools of Manitoba be used as a pooling of consumers for commercial purposes. That certainly informs all our deliberations around the issue of partnerships generally and the television initiative of which the Member has been speaking previously. So we are very cognizant in our delibera tions about the integrity of the classroom in all our deliberations surrounding partnerships.

We do have a concern in that regard that is very fundamental. The integrity of the classrooms of Manitoba must be maintained and must be respected. Certainly that is the view of the Government. In terms of entertaining discussions with in dividuals and organizations and businesses who are interested in some relationship with the classrooms of the province of Manitoba, my door is open. Certainly we have had numerous discussions in fact with the principals of the television corporation that the Member refers to in her remarks, and I expect frankly that that will continue. Mrs.

Smith: I appreciate the Minister's remarks, and I will be looking forward to seeing what we can do to build up those supports in the schools themselves. Mr. Chair, I would like to tum to some other kinds of questions. Looking at the chart, it has changed considerably from when we were in government, and there are some questions that we need to clarify just to see how these aspects have been sort of refigured. Looking at the chart, could the Minister please inform us of the current staffing levels in Manitoba Education and Training and in the Minister's office including the political staff? Mr.

Caldwell: Well, I will address the issue, I suppose, of my office first. There are hundreds of employees in the Department, obviously. In my office, I have five staff, three clerical and two political. Overall, the Department of Education, I have just been advised, has 929 staff years. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, could the Minister please inform the Committee of any layoff s or terminations in the Department specifically since October 5? I know we are aware of a couple, but could he please list the ones that have been laid off or terminated?

We would also like to know who they were, what positions they held and the salary level. Mr. Caldwell: I will take that under advisement and have the material gathered for the Member as expeditiously as possible. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, I want to thank the Minister for that, and I look forward to getting that information. I would ask the Minister, in the 2000 budget, he indicated that there were 60 layoffs within his department. Would the Minister be so kind to supply us with those layoffs within his department, who, what and what pay levels, and also the time line of the layoffs as well?

We would like to have those details in writing if it is possible to do that. Mr. Caldwell: More precisely, Mr. Chair, there were 63 positions that were dealt with in the Budget, and to date it is my understanding that there have not been any layoffs.

19 48 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, I thank the Minister for that information. I noticed that in Research and Planning the Minister has not filled that particular position at this time. I know Research and Planning has been an integral part of Manitoba and education for a number of years. There are many aspects to it. Part of that in years past is when we were examining the need for assessment and evaluation, that Research and Planning was part of that whole initiative. Could the Minister, Mr.

Chair, please inform the Committee as to what Research and Planning will be specifically working on in the next six to eight months, and whether or not that position will be filled? It is a rather important one. Mr. Caldwell: Well, indeed, Mr. Chair, it is a rather important one. I would note that position was deleted by the previous administration and has been re-org'd on this particular chart, so I would concur that it is an impottant position. The position itself has been bulletined internally. There is a competition ongoing. I understand the competition closes next week.

I would also refer the Member to page 44 of the Estimates for a more detailed discussion of the objectives of Research and Planning.

Ob jectives are to facilitate and support research and evaluation across Department units, and to identify priorities for the collection of information to aid in evaluation and justification of departmental programs; to co-ordinate the Department's education and training planning processes-including strategic, business planning-and linkage to resource requirements provided through the Estimates process. *( 1 5: 50) The activities of the branch would be to facilitate and support program and branch managers to collect appropriate data and conduct relevant research that will enhance program delivery and evaluate program/branch activities; to monitor and provide advice and information to the Deputy Minister on the Department's overall strategic agenda; to summarize relevant research findings-international, national and local-and provide information on education and research findings to the education community and to the public at large; to act as the Department's primary liaison with national and international education and training agencies, for example, the Council of Ministers of Education Canada, Statistics Canada, Human Resources Development Canada, the Organ ization of Economic Co-operation and Development, and like agencies.

The expected results would be a co ordinated corporate approach to planning, policy development, multidimensional research, and information sharing; to facilitate a department wide culture that embraces openness, con sultation, an enhanced knowledge base, and joint responsibility in supporting government in itiatives. In summation and in whole, to provide for the better use of research information in the development of policy and practices.

We hope to increase the profile of research as a whole in policy making within government; to work with universities and other research providers in making sound policy decisions; having sound policy advice in the development of policy decisions; and to bring distinguished researchers to Manitoba to share their expertise with us in Educati on and Training in making sound decisions. Basically, we want more analysis from that existing data in making our policy decisions. Mrs. Smith: Thank you very much to the Minister for his comments. Mr.

Chair, I am just wondering, under Administration and Finance, under Managerial, could you please explain page 45? It has to do with the Salaries and Employee Benefits; it is part of Administration and Finance. I noticed there is quite an increase here. Could you tell us who that is and what that is all about? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, there is one position at present. We are expecting to expand that branch to include three others to bring it to full complement, to develop research and planning initiatives of the government. That will occur in due course. Mrs. Smith: Thank you for those comments, Minister.

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 19 49 Mr. Chair, can you give us a little bit more background as to where this position came from and the goals and objectives? I know it has been placed here in Estimates. I need a little bit more clarification, in fact, quite a bit more clarification on this. If you could do that. I would appreciate it so much. Mr. Caldwell: The existing position is Jean Britton, who comes from the Education Indicators unit, which is an appropriate movement into Research and Planning from that particular unit, and further development in that office will occur in due course. Mrs.

Smith: Mr. Chair, I would like to take this opportunity for my colleague, Mr. Derkach. to ask some questions in this area. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, recognizing that this is a new division of the Department-! think years back, we had research and planning, did we not?-p lanning and research, we have changed the name. The Department seems to evolve and revolve as time goes on.

My question, I guess. is with regard to the areas under the Deputy Minister's area of administration, that have been amalgamated into the area of Research and Planning, because, for example, in the area of Education Indicators, that area obviously, I guess, has been amalgamated because of the person moving over into this area.

I see that the Sustainable Development Unit Initiative under Christine McDonald, I do not know where that has gone, whether that has gone into the program department, or whether that has come into this department, or whether elements of it have come here, and whether there must be other areas of the Department that have been sort of merged into this area. Perhaps I would like to ask which areas of the Department have been amalgamated into this division of Research and Planning. Mr. Caldwell: The only aspect merged thus far has been the Indicators.

When we have the branch more fully set up, there will be expected some other movement there, some other merging, but at present it is only the Indicators. Mr. Chair, 16 .2 would cover off Sustainable Development. Mr. Derkach: So, with regard to the research and development area, there is not going to be any component of sustainable development in this Research and Planning area? Mr. Caldwell: It is not expected that there would be. Mr. Derkach: He said he would be merging other areas from the Department into this area. Can he identify which ones those are? Mr.

Caldwell: It would not be areas; it would be staff people from other branches who may undertake a research function pertaining to the area from which that staff person comes. Mr. Derkach: Has the managerial position for this division been hired? Mr. Caldwell: It is currently posted. There is a competition currently underway. I believe it closes on the 5th of June, internal, through the Department-the Government, I am sorry . Mr. Derkach: So are individuals who have been in other divisions of the Department eligible for redeployment into this area or promotion into this area if it is a higher level position?

For example, I guess, Mr. Minister, I am wondering, for example, Jean Britton was the manager of the Education Indicators unit. Is she eligible to become manager of this division itself, or is there a different skill set required for this? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, no, it is an open competition within government. Mr. Derkach: It is an open competition within government? Mr. Caldwell: Yes. Mr. Derkach: So this position will not be one that can be filled from outside of government. It has to be filled from within government. Mr. Caldwell: As process, we are looking within government.

If it cannot be filled within government, we will look outside. But it is our intent to fill it from within government.

19 50 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 Mr. Derkach: So out of the complement of four people, at the present time there is only one staff person in this division. Mr. Caldwell: That is correct. * (16: 00) Mr. Derkach: Have the other areas of expenditure from the Education Indicators unit been transferred into this division completely? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, most are still in School Programs. There are two staff working but not within the branch right now. They are still within the School Programs Division. Mr. Derkach: I guess I am not quite following.

Is the Minister telling us that there are no individuals in this branch at all, even though it appears that we are showing one from '99-2000 that will make up a complement of three in the professional technical area? There is nobody working in this Research and Planning Division right now. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chairman, there are three people, one in Research and Planning and two in School Programs currently coming from the Indicators unit. I do not know if that clarifies it. Right now, there is a competition underway, so it is in a bit of-not transition, but it is in development. Mr.

Derkach: Can the Minister tell me which positions from the School Programs are being transferred into this division? Mr. Caldwell: At present, Mr. Chair, there is only one who has been transferred. At present, there is only one individual; Jean Britton from the Indicators division who is functioning under this particular branch. Mr. Derkach: Can the Minister tell me who the other two positions are? Mr. Caldwell: The other three positions are the manager and two vacant positions which we will fill in due course. Mr. Derkach: That is not my question.

The Minister indicated that there would be two positions from the School Programs Branch that will be transferred to this position in the future. I want to know who those people are and what those positions are. Mr. Caldwell: There is some confusion, Mr. Chair, and I am going to get the Deputy to whisper in my ear again. There is one individual from the Indicators branch and two people from Indicators going to School Programs. There is nobody at this point in time from School Programs going into Research and Planning. Mr. Derkach: Okay, that is a little different than the impression I had before.

I ask the Minister, then, how many people in total were there in the Education Indicators unit? Mr. Caldwell: There are three. Mr. Derkach: Is the Education Indicators unit being disbanded, or is it being eliminated completely from the Department? Mr. Caldwell: Its functions are being re distributed to Research and Planning and partly to School Programs. Mr. Derk ach: Which areas of School Programs are the individuals going to be redeployed to? Mr. Caldwell: One is in Program Imple mentation and one is in Program Development.

The branch is still in development, and that may be partially the reason for the confusion, I suppose, in this matter. Mr. Derkach: That is quite all right. I think we have a general feeling of what is happening here. The Education Indicators branch is being eliminated completely. I guess I have a bit of a concern about that, because the Indicators branch, once again, gives us some reading as to how we are doing as a province in terms of the educational programs that are being delivered and developed in the province.

Can I just have the Minister give us an overview of the mandate and the responsibilities of the Education Indicators branch?

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 19 51 Mr. Caldwell: Just to state, Mr. Chair, the Indicators

section is being redeployed. The staff are staying. The functions remain the same of the individuals, that one is being redeployed to Research and Planning and two are being re deployed to School Programs. So the functions of the Indicators branch will remain constant. It is a redeployment that will occur. Mr. Chair, if I may, could we have a short recess? Mr. Chairperson: Do we have leave for a short recess for five minutes? Mr. Caldwell: Five minutes would be fine. Mr. Chairperson: Agreed? [Agreed} We will take a five-minute recess. We have leave for that. The Committee recessed at 4:06p.m.

The Committee resumed at 4:20p.m. * (16: 20) Mr. Chairperson: Would the Committee come to order. We will continue with our Estimates. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, just continuing on, we are doing this to try and ascertain how the Department has changed. In terms of the Education Indicators unit, I asked for the functions that are being performed by that unit, or that were being performed by that unit. Can I get the Minister to give us just a brief explanation of what functions the Education Indicators unit perform? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, thank you very much for the break as well, incidentally. Yes, I can.

The functions of the Indicators unit: one of the functions is related to the student flow from Kindergarten through post-secondary. That is rates of student promotion, retention, mobility, school leavers, school returns, migration and graduation, patterns of high school student course loads. The Department is working with post secondary institutions to have the Manitoba Education and Training student number carried on to their administrative systems.

The second outcome Indicators relates to student academic achievement; test result rates related to a variety of factors such as gender, school size, qualification of teachers, et cetera; comparison with other provinces of student performance levels on national assessments, for example, SAIP receipt, rates of academic scholarship and awards. The third primary function of Indicators is the student transitions and skill relevancy of graduates. A longitudinal study has been initiated, which will track students for four years after high school completion.

The first phase of the study is a survey of Senior 4 students which are currently in the field. It will be a 20 % sample of S4 students. The first report has been published. The survey will collect information on the student's intentions following high school and their evaluation on how high schools prepared them for their planned future. In 2001, these same students will be recontacted to find out what actually occurred to them after leaving high school and how they, at that point, reflect upon the preparation they received in high school. All these functions will continue post-redeployment. Mr. Der kach: Mr.

Chairperson, I thank the Minister for that. I maybe could just request if there is a general hard copy of the functions of that? If we could get a copy of that, I would appreciate it. Not right now, it can come in the next sitting. I want to ask the Minister whether all of the functions of the Education Indicators program are going to be incorporated within either the Research and Planning area or the Program Development area? Mr. Caldwell: Yes, those functions will continue in the Research and Planning branch as well as the School Programs. Those functions will continue. Mr.

Derkach: Will the longitudinal study that was undertaken by the Indicators project-now that was to track students over a period of four

19 52 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 years, I believe. That is about two years old, is it not? Mr. Caldwell: Yes, it will continue. The first report has been published, and it is four years. Mr. Derkach: Is that report a public document, or is it available to us to be able to purview? Mr. Caldwell: Yes, it is a public document, and we can provide it to you. Mr. Derkach: Will the Minister be continuing with that study to its completion so as to give some indication of a picture of graduates who leave our high schools? Mr. Caldwell: Yes, we will.

I just want to add I think it is very important that we have in the province of Manitoba, and I think all members would agree that it is important to have, information on how students perform post leaving our secondary system. I know that it is something that all members of the Legislature place importance on in terms of outcomes of our education system. Mr. Derkach: I would like to move to the area of Sustainable Development Initiative. That was the co-ordinator or director, I am not sure which level that person was at, was Christine McDonald. Has that position now been moved into the Program Development area?

Mr. Caldwell: It has been moved into the School Programs branch. Mr. Derkach: Has this individual been transferred to that branch as well? Mr. Caldwell: Yes, she has. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, this is another area that is not unlike the learning technologies area. Sustainable development is far more than simply a passing term. I think it has been endorsed by countries around the world. I think it is some thing that we use as a term when we talk about different types of initiatives, and it was being incorporated into the school system. Basically, it brings together the economy of society and the environment.

I am wondering whether the De partment is going to continue with the Sus- tainable Development Initiative that was worked on by the Department previous to the change of administration. Mr. Caldwell: Before I answer that particular question, I wanted to note that the Council on Post-Secondary Education also has a study of post-secondary education grads, that they have a report for the public. In terms of sustainable development, it is interesting, we are proud of the work that has been done in sustainable development by the previous administration and, moving into this particular administration.

In fact, Chris McDonald has just won an award, I am advised, for a report done on sustainable development. As in the learning technology sector, and I mentioned this earlier in response to another question, we are striving to have an institutional culture in the Department of Education and Training whereby sustainable development philosophy is central to the ongoing daily operation of the Department. Sustainable development is now part of all curriculum docu ments and in-corporat

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-38b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 38b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ba7cbf0007ef40fdbc63d1a6bd245d907a9b2570

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