LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 29 April, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Ho n. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Mun icipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have the detailed Estimate Supplement for the Department of Municipal Affairs, for the benefit of all members during Estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Energy and Min es. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker. I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Mineral Resources Limited for the year ending 1984. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 27 students of Grade 5 standing from the Happy Thought School. They are under the direction of Miss Pa ulette Rozak and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minis ter of Housing. On behalf of all of the mem bers, we welcome you here this aftern oon.

ORAL QUESTIONS Workers Compensation Board - re setup of appeals body MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minis ter re sponsible for the Work ers Compe nsation Board . My question, Sir, is I wonder if the Minister could inform us why he has not yet set up an appeals body to listen to appeals with respect to the release of confidential medical information from files of the Workers Compensation Board. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Min ister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

The Leader of the Opposition's que stion probably stems from an

article in the paper today which is not altogether up-to-date In that it does make reference to the fact that there are some pending cases to be heard by the Medical College which is Incorrect. The Medical College has agreed to review the cases that it had In front of it, and there are no pending cases or cases in limbo, as is stated in the article. I am meeting with Dr. Morison, the Director of the Medical College, tomorrow to try and resolve the issue on the basis of having them carry on a little further or come to, through discussion with him, some other mechanism or structure that can deal with it. MR. G.

FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Chairman of the Workers Compensation Board, Ms. Sonny Arrojado, is quoted as saying that 11 cases are in limb o, is the Minister indicating that Ms. Arrojado was misinforme d or misquoted? HON. G. LECUYER: I, myself, talked with the chai rperson today, Mr. Speaker , that either th e information that was provided is outda ted or else she was misquoted. I can't say one or the other; but the fact is there are no cases in limbo presently. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, In view of the fact that the provincial law was changed in September of 1983 to set up this appeal process and that there was an intent on the part of the government to set up an appeals body and such has not yet been done and, in fact, in the breach the College of Physicians and Surgeons has been doing the appeal process, is the Min ister going to be setting up the appeal process through the government, or he is he going to be negotiating with the college to continue to do it on their behalf, and how long will this take place? HON. G. LECUYER: Inde ed , Mr.

Speaker , the mechanism that is in place now is the appeals process and that is the one that was set up as part of the legislation that was adopted . Now, the understanding was at that time or we had no way of knowing exactly how many cases would be referred to the medical college board, the committee or sub-committee of the board dealing with these cases, and as it turns out it was their feeling that there were more than they would have liked, more than they wanted to deal with on an ongoing basis.

But it is a fact that these cases have been re ducing quite drastically, especially in more recent months. it may be that through our discussion they will agree to carry on a little further; or it may be that we will have to set up another mec hanism. Both of these routes are to be considered when we meet tomorrow. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, the number of cases that were being referred to this Appeal Committee of the College of Physicians and Surgeons, was the number so great because there was very little substance to it, and in fact they should have been screened better before they were referred ? 1333

Monday, 29 April, 1985 HON. G. LECUYER: I can't answer, Mr. Speaker, the specifics of that, but I can tell the member that since September 1983 there were approximately 400 cases and that, as I indicated, has been declining. I will be in a position to give exact figures If the member is interested in terms of breakdown, either by year or month, as they have been occurring since September 1983. But I haven't got that detailed information today; hopeful ly, I will have it tomorrow. Lead-in-blood levels - information guidelines MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister, he took as notice a question about a week ago in which I asked about the mixup th at had occurred in transmitting the new guidelines with respect to lead­ in-blood levels to the Workers Compensation Board from his department, and I wonder If he can tell us now how the mixup occurred and why the information wasn't transmitted. HON. G. LECUYER: No, Mr. Speaker. I pursued that and I don't know why it occurred and it may be that it was, but was not raised to the attention of the ·chairperson of the board. But I can say this, Mr.

Speaker, that it is only since this government is in power that this kind of ongoing transmittal of information between the two divisions has been occurring. Now, I can also say to the member that it will be occurring increasingly, because it is my view and understanding, Mr. Speaker, that there should be a two-way exchange of information between the board, which is the Workers Compensation Board which is responsible for dealing with compensation cases, and the Workplace Safety and Health Division, whose responsibility it is to enforce legislation and to reduce the number of accidents in the workplace.

That will be greatly facilitated with the implementation of the on­ line computer system in the Compensation Board terminal, enabling on-line commun ication with the board, has been installed within the Workplace Safety and Health Division, so in the future this type of exchange of information will be rather simultaneous. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad to hear that the comp uters are going to talk when the people aren't talking.

My question to the Minister Is, very simply, these are two areas of his jurisdiction: one area passed new guidelines for lead-in-blood levels; they didn't tell the other area, the Workers Compensation Board. Why did it happen and can he give us the assurance that it won't happen in the future? HON. G. LECUYER: Why it happened, Mr. Speaker, without going into speculation, it's not so important why it happened; we kn ow it happened and the important thing is that it doesn't happen in the future. I said that with the installation of the computer system, Mr.

Speaker, and with the fact that they have a Minister who is responsible and will see to it that both these, the Workplace Safety and Health Division of the Compensation system in Manitoba talk to one another.

That is why we have seen to it that the computer system 1334 is installed at the Compensation so that we will be able, not only to talk to the Workplace Safety and Health Division, but to talk indeed with the employer groups and provide them with a great deal more statistical data that will enable them to try and look at the trends of what is occurring in their various classifications, and see if there are problems and try to redress them before we end up having thousands of claims on our hands and we look at it and say, by God, something is wrong, and we will be able to see it much sooner.

Horse Racing Commission - contemplated changes MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for the Horse Racing Com mission. I wonder, in view of the continuing criticism of actions of the members of the Commission, and in fact appeals to courts resulting In criticism by judges of the actions of that Commission, if the Minister is planning any changes to the makeup of the Commission. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Development. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

For the member's information, yes, I am concerned about the difficulties that were experienced by the Comm ission. I should indicate, Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition is referring to an

article that was in Sunday's Free Press that, yes, there were a numb er of Incidents, a numb er of appeals, that were taken to court. They essentially surrounded one particular incident. There were some problems with the processing of the judges' decisions and it has been made clear to me that there will have to be some tightening of the regulations and the procedures that both the judges and the Supervisor of Racing follow when they're Implementing judges' decisions. Mr.

Speaker, I made it clear when I spoke to some of the individuals who were involved in this that it has never been the case that individuals who are charged originally have ever denied, or evidence has been presented, that they were not in fact guilty of those particular infractions. What has been at issue, and what was at issue in the courts, I believe was a matter of process, and that is of some concern. Mr. Speaker, the process that the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission follows, and its employees should follow, is no different from what is followed at other Comm issions.

That does not say that there is not room for Improvement, Mr. Speaker. I have met with the Horse Racing Commission, the Supervisor of Racing. We have reviewed some of the practices over the last num ber of years, particularly the last standardbred event. I anticipate that there will be changes made to Improve that process so that we don't have the kinds of challenge s and so forth that occurred this year. I don't want that to imply that there is . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The answer to a question should not be turned into a speech. The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker , indeed there must be some concern about the process. The Comm ission has lost every one of the appeals that was taken to court.

Monday, 29 April, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G. FILMON: My question to the Minister is: is he concerned about more than just the process? Is he, for instance, planning on telling the Commission that they ought to hold their meetings in public and their hearings in public so that perhaps some of these kangaroo court procedures can be eliminated under the scrutiny of the public having an idea of what's going on? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Business Development. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated to the member that there has been some suggestion of a need for change in process.

One of the recommendations is obviously using the assistance of legal counsel in both establishing a process that is workable and in informing individual violators within the necessary time frames and so forth. I would ask the Honourable Leader of the Opposition to inform himself of the fact that we operate no differently from other commissions; appeals that have come forward to the Commission are not out of line. There were a numb er of appeals that went before the courts. I have indicated that the process was at fault, not the initial judge's decision to charge an infraction. So, Mr.

Speaker, the rules were violated. We have to clear up the process to make sure that when rules are violated there is an understandable process that both the horsemen understand and that the Commission personnel understand. We intend to do that. I have met over the last month with the Manitoba Harness Horsemen. I have met with the Commission. I have met with the - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker, the Member for Pembina asked what I told them. Mr. Speaker, the members of the Manitoba Harness Horsemen's Association and the Commission know that there are no insurmountable problems.

Those problems that are there will be dealt with, and are being addressed in a co-operative way with the Manitoba Harness Horsemen and with the Commission personnel. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Horse Racing Commission - distribution of money from purses MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, the Minister didn't answer that question either, so I'll ·ask him another question. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder If the Minister could Ind icate whether or not he has yet informed the horsemen, the horseowners and breeders about the distribution of the money from the taxes that are taken with respect to the pu rses, an arrangement such as was made last year that allowed for some extra money to be put in purses. I understand that the same arrangement is being asked for this year, but no word has been given. Has a decision been made on that? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a decision has been made.

I met with the Manitoba Racing Commission on Saturday to discuss this, and an announ cement will be forthcoming. Sugar beet industry - reply to telex MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. ADAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. 1 direct my question to the First Minister. lt's a follow­ up to my question last week. Has the First Minister received a response to the two telexes, I believe, that he has sent to . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A. ADAM: . . . the Prime Minister of Canada in regard to support for the Manitoba Beef . .

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. A MEMBER: They don't care about the sugar beet farmers, Mr. Speaker. MR. A. ADAM: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, they're not interested in what's happening to the sugar beet producers. Mr. Speaker, I will try to repeat my question again. As a follow-up to last weeks question to the First Minister, has he received a response to the two telexes that he sent in addition to the telephone calls that he has made to Ottawa In regard to assistance for the Manitoba Beet Producers' Association? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose for posing that question. Mr. Speaker, it's sometimes I think regrettable that 90 percent of the real worthwhile questions that are constructive by way of questions put and dealing with the issues of the day do have to come from the backbenches on this side of the Cham ber. SOME HONOURABLE M.EMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a response has been received from the Minister responsible for the Wheat Board, charged with the respo nsibility for developing a sugar beet policy by the Minister responsible for Agriculture, the Honourable Mr. Wise. That telex was received this morning and, Mr.

Speaker, as a result of that telex, the Minister of Agriculture Is arranging a meeting that we can attend with the Minister responsible for the Wheat Board to attempt to ensure greater clarification, elaboration, as to the contents of the telexes we have receive because regrettably after some one week plus two days of waiting we have a telex that falls short, regrettably, of clearly responding . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 1335

Mond•y, 29 April, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, if there is a playing of politics in this Chamber, it is by mem bers opposite who continue to play partisan politics on the backs of Manitobans. Mr. Speaker , the Minister of Agriculture will be arranging a meeting so that we can hopefully obtain some substance, some content, some clarification of the points that we raised by way of our earlier telex to the Prime Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask him when he expects to be able to meet with the Ottawa people to see if we can't finalize this issue that has been dragging from Ottawa for quite a number of weeks and days now. When does he expect that this will be finalized so that the beet producers will know where they're at and they can get down to work and get their crop in? MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My office has been in contact with the Minister's office in an endeavour to arrange a meeting to follow up to see what clarification they have vis-a-vis this telex, but clearly, Mr. Speaker, there is virtually no commitment in the telex to the sugar beet growers of Manitoba, or this country. Clearly, when one reads, I would like to assure you of the Federal Government's commitment, Mr. Speaker, and it follows on the original press release of - over the next year the Federal Government will look into the advisability of establishing a national sugar sweetener policy.

There basically is no change in the Federal Government's position vis-a-vis our telex, Mr. Speaker. We hope, Mr. Speaker, that the Federal Government will assure producers in this country that stabilization payments will be available for'B3 and'B4. I am assuming that honourable mem bers don't disagree with that position, that stabilization payments should be made to sugar beet producers for previous years that are owing them. Mr.

Speaker, I am assuming, as well, that members opposite don't want to take the Federal Government off the proverbial hook in not providing stabllization through The Agricultural Stabilization Act. Do they disagree with that condition, Mr. Speaker? Also, do the honourable mem bers disagree? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The answer to a question should not develop into a speech. Sugar beet industry - telex, adequate funds to farmers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the First Minister dealing with the sugar beet industry, Mr. Speaker.

Will the First Minister be tabling the telex he received from Ottawa which truly points out that there is a commitment by the Federal Government to immediately meet with the provinces, with the producers, to develop a long-term sugar policy? Will he live up, Mr. Speaker, to the commitment that on reply of his telexes that he will provide the adequate funds and do it now, Mr. Speaker, $3.5 million this afternoon so the sugar beet producers can go to the field? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, first in respect to the telex, if the Honour able Member for Arthur Is advising this House that he does not have a copy of the telex forwarded to me by the honourable member responsible for the Wheat Board, if that's what the honourable member is telling me that he does not have that telex, then I will table the telex, in view of the honour able member advising me that he has not received the telex. MR. J. DOWNEY: On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, I did not make any comment that I didn't have one, I asked him if he would table a copy of the telex so that all mem bers of the House could have one, plus cop ies to the media. Mr. Speaker, the question that he didn't answer, will he leave this Assembly this afternoon and commit $3.5 million to Manitoba sugar beet producers so that sugar beet industry will go ahead this year? At the same time, there can be some discussions on long-term sugar policy. Will he do that today, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'll answer the question in this way.

Last Friday, the Leader of the Opposition indicated that we should, in fact, put forward monies, as the Honourable Member for Arthur suggests, and then go to the bargaining table. Mr. Speaker, what bargaining table has there been on this issue? Mr. Speaker, from November until April 18th, the Federal Government dragged its heels and made no commi tment to the sugar beet producers of this province or this country. Mr. Speaker, we wrote them; we telexed them; we asked them for meetings to put forward.

All they had to put forward was that there is a commitment under The Agricultural Stabilization Act for producers of sugar beets. They didn't do that, Mr. Speaker; they changed the rules of the game, Mr. Speaker. We wanted some assuranc es . The Province of Manitoba wanted some assurances, in view of the fact that there Is no com mitment that our assistance goes beyond this year. Mr.

Speaker, if that commitment is here that the sugar policy will be in place for the 1986 crop year, and that there are no provincial funds beyond this year, and that ASA is still available to the sugar beet producers, we have a deal. 1336 SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please.

Monday, 29 April, 1985 The Honour able Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Province of Alberta have comm itted to their sugar beet producers, that in the Province of Quebec there is a stabilization program for their sugar beet producers MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. J.

DOWNEY: . . . the Federal Government have committed to support the Canadian sugar industry and work out a long-term sugar policy with the producers, with the provinces, will the First Minister of this province quit playing politics with the livelihoods of the people who work at the sugar industry and on the farmers MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. J. DOWNEY: . . . and commit $3.5 million today to that industry? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I want to deal with this question of playing politics because, when I asked that that telex be tabled a few moments ago on the basis of an assumption that when honourable members called for that telex, they did not have a copy of the telex. 1 do not know of any tradition, Mr. Speaker, when indeed government communic ates with another government. I know that when I commun icate by way of telex to the Prime Minister of Canada, I don't telex a copy to John Turner or to Ed Broad bent, Mr. Speaker. I have not done that, and I suspect no other Premier in this country has done that historically.

But I find it interesting and intriguing, Mr. Speaker, that a copy of the response is forwarded to the opposition in this Ho use in a government-to-g overnment telex response so honourable members can play politics with that telex on behalf of their federal brethren in Ottawa. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Efficiency study re MTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, it's nice to have a preview of the next election in advance. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister responsible for telephones and ask him if he can confirm that MTS has been the subject of an extensive and expensive efficiency study carried out over the past four to six months. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minster of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: I can indicate, Mr. Speaker, that the Manitoba Telephone System, in keeping with sound administrative practice, is looking at ways in which its administration can be improved, and I believe such a study has been authorized by the board of directors. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Honourable Minister whether employee concerns about a possible staff cut of 300 to 400 personnel is being considered by MTS management. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I'd be constrained to take as notice any specifics the honourable member puts in his question, but I have serious reservations about the kind of specifics he includes in his question. I think that kind of rumour is deplorable, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. DOERN: Perhaps the Minister could convey that to the employees of MTS who are concerned.

I would also ask him whether he has had any feedback or commun ication indicating that there is employee dissatisfaction and concern and the possible fall off in efficiency because of their concern over the possible effects of a shake up in MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the honourable member is trying to create rumour. He knows very well, as a member of this House, that the committee meets tomorrow and he would have an opportunity to put all those questions to the Chief Executive Officer of Manitoba Telephone System, but he chooses to speculate on rumours at this stage.

Interest Rate Relief Program - Billing and collecting repayable portion MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, on Friday last I had taken a question as notice from the Honourable Member for Pembina regarding the Manitoba Development Corporation and its involvement in the Interest Rate Relief Program and have Indicated to him that I believe that their involvement only related to the business portion of the Interest Rate Relief Program. I have further researched the matter and can confirm that that is true.

The loan portion with respect to interest rate relief for farmers is dealt with through the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. In terms of residential housing, that component that worked very successfully to help Manitoba homeowners, that portion does not contain any loan provisions, and the grant provisions under that were administered through Manitoba Housing. Manitoba Hydro - seminars re Limestone MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro. lt is my understanding that Manitoba Hydro is currently today, and possi bly tom orrow, holding some kind of 1337

Monday, 29 April, 1985 information meetings or seminars having to do with the Limestone project. Can the Mini ster indicate to me the precise nature of the mee tings, and are they indeed open to the general public or interested business people to attend? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PAAASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, there is a seminar being put on, on purchasing policy and tendering practices put on by Manitoba Hydro and the Department of Industry, Trade and Te chnology in Winnipeg -and I think they'll be conducting in rural centres in Manitoba as well -to better advise the business commun ity of what might be involved in trying to get greater spinoffs for Ma ni to ba business firms through the Hydr o tendering process involved in Limestone. Certainly the busi ness commu nity has been contacted. The response, I must say, is overwhel ming, by the business community.

I met with represe ntatives of them last week and they were te lling me that we have to have another day of sem ina rs because the response has been so good. I certainly bel ieve that they are open to the business community; they are open to the general public, whoever might want to attend. If you would like to attend, I'd certainly arrange for you to be there. MA. H. ENNS: Mr. Spea ker , I was attempting to contact the Minister's office earlier and I apologize for not having done so. Ali i want to ask the Min ister, that the meeting would certainly be open to a representative, myse lf, to attend that mee ting.

HON. W. PAAASIUK: I think there have probably been responses, but certainly I will contact the people organizing this seminar to ensure that even though they might be filled up within the next day or two, that you certainly, or someone from your staff could attend. MA. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I am genui nely soliciting information. The Minister troubles me with his response about the meetings being filled up. Are they at invitation only, or because of size of room, or why is it a question of whether or not somebody can attend the meeting? HON. W. PAAASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I certainly don't want to give any impression that people couldn't attend. When you organize seminars, and you have an overflow to the seminar on the first day because so many people have applied, I am saying that it might be better to go the second day and deal with the overflow crowd rather than bringing In two or three extra people to an already closed seminar. That struck me as being common sense.

I certainly would like to ensure that the mem ber or his staff do have access to that seminar that has been public for some time, that the business community had heard about it for some time, and has responded to it very we ll. I certainly would ensure that he gets a chance to get there. Sugar beet industry - telex re assistance to MA. SP EAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the First Minis ter with respect to the telegram he tabled in the House from Mr. Mayer.

I would ask the First Minister if this is correct information wherein the Minister states, that it is unlikely the refinery in Winnip eg will reopen should conditions not permit it to operate this year. Is that correct information? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member is ref erring to the telex tabled, that is an opinion on the part of the Min ister responsible for the Wheat Board. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the First Minister. In view of the first paragraph of this telex from Mr.

Mayer that ind icates and it's to the Premier: "In view of the concern you expr essed re garding the establishment of a nationa l sugar-sweet ener policy, 1 would like to assure you of the Federal Government's commitment." I would ask the First Mini ster in view of that commitment to the devel opment of a national policy, as the First Min ister and Minister of Agricultur e have indicated, is he not prepared to provide the assistance that is required for the industry to proceed this year and then proceed to devel op a policy this week in meetings of the Mini sters and officials? HON. H. PAWLEY : Mr.

Speaker , I am somewhat surprised to receive a question of that nature in regard to this from a former Attorney-General and I think an eminent lawyer in the Province of Manitoba in his own right, that he would fall for a loophole -that a locomotive could travel through that loophole -certainly not one that he would ever advise a client to accept. Mr.

Speaker, the Min ister of Agriculture made it very very clear - and if honourable mem bers would listen for a moment -the telex that was forwarded to the Min ister responsible for the Wheat Board, and if hon ourable mem bers would read that telex for a moment to better inform themselves as to the points that were raised by the province, then indeed they might be able to enquir e by way of more enlightened questions as to the position of the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture has indicated very clear that this - (I nterjection) - response . MA. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H.

PAWLEY: If the Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek wants to rise in his place and ask that question, let him do so when I've finished answering mine. Mr. Speaker, first this telex is regrettably too vague as any member who is not tied to narrow political blinkers could see; secondly, this telex is silent in respect to the important issue of future provincial participation insofar as a sugar-sweetener policy is concerned and whether or not it will be expected that the province will make additiona l contributions next year and the year after next and so forth. And thirdly, Mr.

Speaker, this telex provides us with no inf ormation -no 1338

Monday, 29 April, 1985 information - as to whethe r the producers of this province will receive their 1983 and their 1984 payments under the ASA. Mr. Speaker, honourable members should be the first, as many of them representing sugar beet farmers in this province, to rise in their places and decry the vague evasive responses that we receive from Ottawa these days in regard to this critical issue confronting farmers in Manitoba. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the First Minister.

How long is he prepared to refuse to co-operate to provide emergency treatment to the farmers and beet workers of this province and truckers? How long is he prepared to refuse to provide this emergency assistance that's required? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member should ask a question seeking information, not an opinion. The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementa ry to the First Minister.

How long is he prepared to wait to provide the emergency treatment that is required for the beet workers and farmers and plant workers in the sugar beet industry and is he prepared to take the risk of losing this entire Indu stry forever to Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. That is the same question and it asked for an opinion. Does the honourable member wish to rephrase his question to seek information? PCBs - storage sites MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On the 24th, Wedne sday of last week, I took under advisement a question from the Mem ber for Niakwa, when he asked as to the number of sites and the quantity of PCBs stored in Manitoba. I indicated I would bring back some information to the mem ber. The Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Speaker, stores most of the PCBs in Manitoba at the Waverley Street site. lt stores capacitors, ballasts, sand, gravel, wood, rags and clothing, etc., that have been contaminated. All those put together represent 249,637 pounds. At the Waverley Street site, Mr.

Speaker, they store the bulk oil where oil which has greater than 50 parts per million of PCBs, and there are 12,000 gallons of those. As well, Manitoba Hydro at the Gillam Generation Station has 45 gallons of contaminated sand, gravel, etc. Also there are 76 gallons of capacitors and contaminated materials stored at the SOAB mine by lnco; and 288 gallons of transformer oil. And the last to store substances is the Winnipeg Hydro at 41 Mill Street site, which also stores capacitors and contaminated substances. There are two drums of PCB oil and 20 drums of parts and materials containing PCBs.

All of these sites, Mr. Speaker, are fenced In, secured and are mon itored by my department once a year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health. Is the government planning on any additional sites in the Province of Manitoba for storing dangerous materials? And who will be operating these sites? MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nourable Min ister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Member for Niakwa knows this government is currently near the completion of the first phase of the Hazardous Waste Management Program. There will soon be a com prehensive document which will be made public on this, and on the basis of that program, Mr. Speaker, there are no additional sites being considered at this time. MR. A. KOVNATS: Can the Honourable Minister advise whether the location at Gimli, which did at one time store PCBs, is no longer in existence? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Speaker, there is a storage site still in existence and operation at Gimli where a variety of substances are stored, but this site has not been and will not be used for storage of PCBs. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the same Minister, can the Honourable Minister advise whether there is a special training program for inspectors who have to regulate the act that we are just waiting to be proclaimed? HON. G. LECUYER: I gather the member is asking whether there is going to be a training program for the implementation of the transportation of hazardous goods, and the member Ind icates, yes.

Yes, there will be a training program; we still are awaiting a definite date. There is a

schedule to be a training of the trainers program. We are awaiting for confirmation from Ottawa as to the exact date that will take place. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANS TETT: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I propose to move the motion for Committee of Supply, but before I do that I wish to advise members that I understand that there is a possibility that the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources will be finished 1339

Monday, 29 April, 1985 this afternoon, in which case it would be our intention -if they do finish -to start the Estimates of the Department of Municipal Affairs this eveni ng; and Health, Sir, would continue in the Chamber. I also believe, Sir - (Interjec tion) - indefinitely? Health will continue inde finitely in the Cha mber. I believe, Mr. Speaker, there may be an inclination, a predisposition, to dispense with Private Members' Hour today. I would ask, Sir, for leave to do so and then I would move the motion. MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? Leave has been granted. HON.

A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the - (Interje ction) - Oh, Mr. Speaker, I believe there's another motion first. COMMITTEE CHANGE MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Aiel. MRS. D. DODICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a committee change in Public Utilities and Natural Resources; the Member for St. James substituting for Member for Gimli. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved Itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to He r Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Health, and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: We are now starting our deliberations on Item No. 12 .

Expenditures Related to Capital, (a� Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets: Northern Development Agreement -Provincial; 12 .(

b) Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets: Other Capital Projects; 12 .(

c) Capital Grants. The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: I wonder if the Min ister has a statement he'd like to make in this regard to give us an idea what his policy is when it comes to dev elopment of projects and Capital Expenditur es, or doesn't he have one. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. S. USKIW: I wonder if the member would clarify that question. Is he referri ng to Parks and Water Resource projects? MR. J. DOWNEY: At this particular one, I was more interested in the water projects, but then I'll get to the parks as well. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the sched ule of projects have been distributed but, essentially, if the member wishes a bit of an overview comment, then I would indicate to him that this year we're mainly concentrating on the fed eral-provincial agreement components under the Value-Added Program, which is a $4 million package which termina tes on September 30th of this year. And then, of course, there's the valley-town dykes and all sorts of other small things.

But, essentially, we wind up the feder al-provincial package this year which means that for next year we have to have a different program, either a new federal-provincial one, or a different provincial initiative. Otherwise, there will be a major drop In the amount of capital programming for water control projects. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple specific questions then dealing with the Parks.

I'll ask the one dealing with the Brandon water slide, and maybe the answer's been given some time ago, has that agreement been reached on the property for the location of the water slide and will it be proceeding this year; and what participation does the province have, if any, in that program? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the water slide at Grand Valley, that agreement has been entered into, that's done some months ago.

The province's participation really is twofold, one is that we provide the real estate on which it's being built by way of a lease, and venture capital is involved in raising some equity capital for the project. MR. J. DOWNEY: So that the only participation is the provision of property through a lease, if I understand it correctly , as far as the Department of Na tural Resources is concerned. And what about an operating agreement on the park, is that worked out jointly with HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, that's all part of the agreement.

The new owner, if you like, is going to maintain the campground facility so that it's all a package, in essence. We 're going to be right out of it, and the new owner will be operating the campsite and, of course, his new business. MR. J. DOWNEY: The Minis ter, I take it, is not overly anxious to get into the detailed discussions, and maybe this isn't the appropriate place to do so. I was just wonderi ng, because there had been some rumour as to whether it was going to be proceeding, it is going to be proceed ing as far as the government is concerned. That's the only question I have in that regard.

On the Acquisition and Construction of Physical Assets, Oak Lake Regulation is slated for $75,000.00. What are the plans there? What will be carried out with the Oak Lake Regulation Program? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the $75,000 is a bit of an incentive from the province to 1340

Monday, 29 April, 1985 encourage private sector funding of projects in Oak Lake, namely , Ducks Unli mited and the Wildlif e Federation, etc. it's a bit of seed money ess ential ly. MR. J. DOWNEY: I wonder who the department has talked to locally as far as that kind of a project or program is concerned, because there has been a long­ term problem between some of the different groups there. I'm wondering if the local water commission, advisory committee, I guess it is, that has been set up, are th ey ma king th e re commenda tion s to th e government as to what should be carried out. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, that's something that has yet to be sorted out as the advisory committee is there, but it really doesn't have much to do until the various participants decide on the nature of the project that they are going to proceed with. I don't know how long that is going to take to be put in place. So, in essence, it's a committee that is going to wait for the devel opments to take place before they get very much Involved. MR. J.

DOWNEY: I wonder if the Min ister would undertake to give me the assurance that before anything was developed or proceeded with th at th e local Muni cipality of Sifton be contacted to discuss what the proposals are because there have been some difficulties there. I'm not asking that he give up any decision­ making authority, but I think in fairness to them, go through a formal discussion with them as to what the plans are because there are some ideas there of local people. I've seen some of the proposals that have come forward personally in the last few weeks and I think they're objective.

I think they're objective to the point where D.U. I'm sure could live with them, where nature's conservation I'm sure could find support - I would hope they could find support of them - and to a large extent proba bly the local elected officials in mun icipal government and as well, the council. So it would be an exercise that I would request of the Min ister. I think it would hopefully diffuse any problems that may come up from one side or the other going in and spending money and developing something which could open up some of the controversy that has been ongoing in that communit y.

I would ask the Minis ter for his commitment to at least discuss with the community of mu nicipal elected people. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the local government of the Muni cipality of Sifton have appeared before the commission, so we do have a record of their particular views; but notwithstanding that I think it's perhaps advisable to outline the way in which this is to proceed.

Not very much is going to happen at Oak Lake unl ess and until Ducks Unlimited decides on the funding the project for Oak Lake, after which, once that decision is made, the full consultative process begins wherein all of the lo cal people become involved, the Interdepartmental Planning Board becomes involved -which invo lves the Environment Department and a whole host of interest groups -so at that point there will be ample opportunity for the kind of consultations to take place that the member is concerned about.

Now the process demands that it be done. it's not a matter of ministerial discre tion; it's a matter of how we do it. MR. J. DOWNEY: I'm satisfied with that at this point, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask, dealing with the Pasqula and Polder Ill, at what stage is the dev elopment of that project there? Is the government proceed ing ahead with it at full steam ahead, or what stage Is it at? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, that is being proceeded with, but we have not yet concluded the discussions with the Government of Canada. it's intended that it be a 50-50 cost-sharing arrangement and the negotiations are sort of in the final stages, if you like. So we really can't be definitive until we have that agreement pinned down. MR. J.

DOWNEY: I would like to put on the record a couple of concerns that have been brought to my attention, particularly with the storage of water in the western region of the Polder Ill; and I'm not sure, but I don't think there is a clear understanding of the Impact that the storage of the water has had and the salinity problem that has developed in some of that area. I'm wondering if the government have an update as to what the conditions are of the soils and their potential agricultural productivity or product capacity. Is there any work being done in that regard? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the studies that we have indicate that only the Pasquia area should be developed which Is about 18 ,000 acres, but that due to salinity problems the big lake area should not be deve loped. MR. J. DOWNEY: That's the point I'm trying to make. Without having a map before me, I can't get into it in any detail the way I shoul d, but I am of the unde rstanding that the reason for some of the increased salinity in the Big Lake area is because of major storage back west of the Polder Ill, and that it has percolated through the soil underground and has in fact caused the salts to rise in that area.

The storage of water back to the west has in fact caused an increase in the salinity, and the total picture should be looked at. I'm not saying that I don't want to see it developed for agriculture. I think that we have to make sure that the total parcel is looked at. There's no use In devel oping agricultural land if there Is going to be water stored to continue increasing or to maintain a high salinity level. The storage of water to the west has to be, as wel l, looked at. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that under the Agrifood Agreement, PFRA and the Department of Natural Resources are doing a study on those areas where that problem is showing up. MR. J. DOWNEY: Okay, I'm satisfied as long as it's being considered, Mr. Chairman, or looked at that it is being done in a proper manne r. I as wel l have a couple of ques tions dea ling with the new agreement which is being worked out with the 1341

Monday, 29 April, 1985 Federal Government, Mr. Chairman. Again I know that there are many many projects that have been priorized in the past few years, whether it be the Holland Dam, whether it be some of the main projects in southwestern Manitoba. I make reference to the Cromer Dam which 1 made the case for when we discussed it earlier in Water Resources. There has been for years an interest in the southwest to develop the Patterson Dam.

I am not opposed to the Patterson Dam; however, I think that a better benefit could be derived if a project were looked at on the Souris River, a project which would control some flood waters and as well would maintain 400,000 acre-foot of water in the Souris River Basin, south of Coulter, through to the United States boundary. Those are the kinds of meaningful projects, if we're goin g to get back to some form of major water conserv ation projects and capital expenditure where it, in fact, has a longer term and I think a more beneficial impact for a larger community.

I guess I'm on record as making this comment before. We have seen the development of the Red River Floodway and the preservation of the City of Winnip eg and the movement of water around the City of Winnipeg by the Red River Floodway.

We've seen the Portage Diversi on which was another integral part, and the Lake of the Prairies development out at lnglis. · The Souris, being a major contrib utor to the Assiniboine River and eventually the Red River system, I would hope that the engineering departments and the politicians who are responsible would some day look at what I would consider one of the final stages of development.

In this regard as well as when I talk about the Souris River and developments taking place, has the province discussed with the Province of Saskatchewan any working out of agreements or any discussions on the movement of water through that southern system from the Diefenbaker Lake system through Regina, Moose Jaw and down into the southern reaches of Manitoba and then back into these systems, are there any plans in that regard, or is it just permanently on a shelf due to shortage of funds? Or what are the projects that are being presented to the Federal Government as a cost-sharing agreement?

Seeing as you're an assistant to the Premi er, maybe you could move the clocks ahead so we could know where we are. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, all of those questions really relate to a stage into the future. As the member probably is aware, perhaps maybe he even overlooked the fact that there is a current water dev elopment agreement study under way which is going to sort of dictate to us where we go with respect to planned projects over the next two or three decades. We have not yet been apprised of the resu lts of that study, and I guess we won't until March of 1986.

So really very few decisions are going to be made with respect to all of these issues until the study has been made available and that would be the basis on which we would then move. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Mini ster and his staff some specific questions with respect to capital assets under the Agro-Man Agreement, and that project , the Value-added Crops Production Agreement project involving Natural Resources and Agriculture and the Federal Government.

The specific project I have in mind is the -I'll try and find it here -it is the Roberts-McTavish Drain, No. 15, Page 8 of the lists of expenditures related to capital assets. Mr. Chairman, it has come to my attention that there has been some dispute over the last two months with respect to that particular drainage system and the manner in which it is proposed to be engineer ed under the new twinning of Highway 75.

There seems to be some farmer concern upstream that feels that unless there is some greater capacity that is built not only under the new twinning of the highway, whenever that reaches that particular point of the drain, but also under the existing point of the hig hway, that given that the drain is going to be re constructed without sufficient capacity through the hig hway that there could be a water drainage problem. I'm wondering if this particular concern has been expr essed to the Minis ter and whether or not he has had an opportunity to discuss it in detail with his people. HON. S. USKJW: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not at all aware of that particular issue. I would suspect that the twinning of Highway 75 is some years away at that point, so I'm not sure that we're going to be dealing with that issue simultaneously with respect to this agreement. This agreement termina tes this year, and this project has to be complete and cash flowed by September. So what the future holds for that area near Morris and this particular drain I could not comment on at the moment. lt is not relative to this agreement that we're working under now. MR. C. MANNESS: We ll, Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister is correct when he says this agreement runs out and that's part of the problem. lt's probably that part of the deadline to which his department is working, and I believe my greater concern though is that this drain, if cleaned out, back some eight miles, I believe -it says 5.3 here, but I think it even goes back further -those lando wners who are immed iately upstream of Highway 75 are concerned that they're going to be deluged, particularly at a time when there might be four or five inches of rain, with a significant amount of water, and that there could be an awful lot of crop loss sustained in tho se years prior to the hig hway, the twinning of Highway 75, reaching that particular run.

I'm wondering If there ever has been set a precedent whereby this construction of a drain, in cleaning out, can continue to meet the deadline that is placed upon this particular project, whefeby some crop damage, should it occur, could be considered by the government if in fact there was a heavy rain to occur and there was a large amount of water that would flow down on cropland. HON. S. USKJW: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's a hypothesis I guess at best and I really don't think I would want to comment on what we would be doing with respect to that potential, other than I do know that we are 1342

Monday, 29 April, 1985 cognizant of all of the im pacts of engineering works and construction that we undertake and, presumably, are guarding against a negative impact. Of course, where we slip up with respect to that question, there is always a potential for legal claim against the depart ment. So I'm not sure that I would want to develop a hypothesis that presents us with a problem where we don't know that a problem in fact will occur. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm wondering then whether those concerns that have been expressed again by a number of farmers immediately upstream of Highway 75, whether in fact they are incorrect given the engin eering analysis of the stream in question, and what has been said to these particular farmers to try and allay their fears? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, obviously without having the water resources people here, we're not in a position to be specific in our response, so perhaps it would suffice if I would simply take that under advisement and inform my honourable friend either formal ly, or otherwise, at a later date. MR. C.

MANNESS: Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I hoped that the Mini ster would undertake to do that. Secondly, maybe he may also want to take as notice - and I'm sorry I wasn't here to pose these ques tions at a time more suitable - but I believe also under these Expenpenditu res Related to Capital, that there was at least previousl y, some study associated with the overhill drain which was immediately south of Portage la Prairie, water that if drained properly would move from north to south and then be introduced into the Assiniboine River. I can't see it on the list.

I'm wondering if the Minister has staff here that could comment with respect to that study and if not, if he could undertake also to offer me some additional information as to what has been found in the area of re sults. For some time now there has been a raging debate within the area as to whether these wetlands should be drained in some fashion, and I believe that the Department of Natural Resources, was going to do some type of a study.

I was under the impression that it came under the Agro-Man project - I can't find it right now -but nevertheless I would ask if the Min ister could maybe update me with respect to his deparmten t's findings in that particular project. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that that was a particular experimental project which was undertaken in the wet sands area and that the reco mmendation that flowed out of that was that it be deferred and that there were no real benefits perceived from going ahead with any project there. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, was that an internal study and if so, would there be any chance that the Min ister could share that with me? HON. S. USKIW: Ye s, that was under our Agri-Food Program, Mr. Chairman, the federal -provincial Agri­ Food Agreement Project. MR. C. MANNESS: Is there a published report with respect to that finding? HON. S. USKIW: Ye s. there Is. We can make that available. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a couple of questions I would like to ask at this time, if I may, they don't relate to this topic at hand.

A couple of days ago I had asked the Minis ter if he could supply some information with respect to the agreement in principle with respect to the Indian land claims? I was just wondering if that had been tabled when I wasn't here or is that still coming? HON. S. USKIW: Well, I'm advised that there are still negotiations under way on that, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. GOURLAY: So we can expect to receive that material in due course? HON. S. USKIW: I'm advised that we can provide the parameters of that agreement now, that it is public information. But the agreement itself, we haven't arrived at. MR. D.

GOURLAY: The other area, Mr. Chairman, was with respect to elk ranching in Manitoba. I'm just wondering what the Minis ter's proposals are for the future with respect to elk ranching. Is it somet hing that will be expanded upon or what is the situation? HON. S. USKIW: Weil, Mr.

Chairman, we did cover that item quite extensively a few days back; but I did ind icate then, that unl ess there is some biologist rec ommendations that would argue that we not proceed with, or allow game farming of that nature, that my own personal disposition would be to allow it, but perhaps restrict it to our own species rather than allowing the imports. That 's the point that we're concerned about, whether we 're importing other people's problems into this province, espe cially from outside of the country, but I have no particular reason to want to disallow game farming.

But I say that without knowing fully whether or not there's any logic to disallowing game farms. lt's something that we're reviewing at the present time. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My apologies for raising this matter again. I wasn't aware that it had been discussed earlier, so thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Robin-Russell. MR. W McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under the Capital that we're discussing, I was wondering about this property of Nykyforak's north of Roblin which has been flooded for 15 years, at least, that I know of, of water coming out of the ducts.

Has the department made an offer to purchase that property? The quarter se ction is a quarter

section of farm; it abuts up against the Duck Mountain Provincial Park. tt appears the problem isn't going to go away. Is there a policy, or has the department considered buying that quarter sect ion and buying him out? HON. S. USKIW: I'm afraid we can't give the member an answer at the present time. We just don't have the 1343

Monday, 29 April, 1985 staff resources here on that su bject. But we can get the information. MR. W. McKENZIE: Yes, that's fine. Mr. Minister, I still didn't get any report from Mr. Weber on that problem in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I guess that will be forthcoming as well. HON. S. USKIW: I'm advised that a memo has been prepared tor me, for forwarding on to the Member for Roblin. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The next member in line is the Member for Minnedosa. MR. J. DOWNEY: Good man, good choice. Where did you get that one? Out of your kidneys? HON. S. USKIW: Okay, be careful, fellows. MR. D.

BLAKE: I'm just going to ask a few general questions, Mr. Chairman. On th e Capital Expenditur es, the computer . equipment, it's a fairly healthy amount there. What is happening with computerization in the department? Is this new equipment? Is it upgrading? HON. S. USKIW: I'm advised that microcomputers are going to be placed in eight regional offices throughout Manitoba, as well as some computer capacity within the City of Winnipeg. MR. D. BLAKE: Under Bridge Replacement, are these bridges in various drainage areas that have deteriorated or are there some new bridges there? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, that is a major issue. 1 guess it's been something that has been building up tor many many decades. What we have to face is a rationalization of bridges in Manitoba, roads and drainage works, because I don't believe it is within the economics these days to replace all of the existing ones. Transportation routes will have to be developed in a way that would minimize bridge construction over drains and Inde ed perhaps municipal roads.

The idea of a bridge every mile isn't feasible in this economy. lt isn't necessary anymore either, because of different mode s of transportation or at least capacity in transportation in rural Manitoba. So we have to develop a planned approach and a predetermined approach as to which bridges should be rebuilt, restored and upgraded and which ones we will have to just abandon forever and reroute our traffic accordingly. That has to tie in with our market road system and all of those questions.

As the member probably is aware, during the time that his administration was in charge here a few years ago, there was a study done. I believe the conclusions were that we have to have a new policy. Certainly they weren't explicitly dealt with. I think the report was received and not acted upon, as I recall it. I'm told there is a price tag of $40 million on that question. So there is some fair amount of work to be done on determining just where we want to go with that issue. We should be involving the Municipal Association and community people with respect to that question. MR. D.

BLAKE: And what bridges are necessary? HON. S. USKIW: School divisions, the whole bit. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, okay. There's a fairly large amount under Park Development. Are these new parks, or Is this further development in some of the existing parks? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, by and large, that's basically our maintenance program, nothing major there. MR. D. BLAKE: I see. Nothing major, eh? Equipment purchases, these are normal purchases, or are these equipping the conservation officers with new four-wheel, up-to-date vehicles with two-way radios to match the vehicles that the poachers are using? HON. S.

USKIW: Mr. Chairman, let's go back to that discussion of a few days ago. If we succeed in eliminating poachers, we could save a lot of money by not having to equip our C.O .s with all this new equipment, but it's a valid point. The equipment that is out there now and available to the potential hunter, if you like, legal or otherwise, is very sophisticated. One might have to have equally sophisticated equipment to deal with it. I think airplanes, of course, are useful, two-way commu nications and so on. MR. D. BLAKE: Cho ppers are better. HON. S. USKIW: But you still have to get to the site sometimes. MR. D.

BLAKE: Hel icopters would probably be a lot better. They're very expensive. Okay, I notice there is a substantial amount under Wildlife Habitat, the Oak Hammock Marsh area. There's a sizable amount being spent there. Is that further improvements to that, or is that some further development In there, Mr. Chairman? HON. S. USKIW: That's internal ditching and nesting islands, water supply channels and water control wafting dikes being construc ted to improve water level manipulation and to reduce the threat of alien botulism and increase wildlife production. That's a joint, cost­ shared venture with Ducks Unlimited.

MR. D. BLAKE: So it's just an improvement of that area? HON. S. USKIW: it's public use facilities including dike, trails, signs, shelters, boardwalks, self-guidin g interpretive building. it's a $366,000 project. MR. D. BLAKE: Okay, Mr. Chairman, that's . MR. CHAIRMAN: Since the Member for Morris has had his first chance, I would like to give a chance to the Member for Ste. Rose if he doesn't mind. 1344

Monday, 29 April, 1985 The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I wasn't here Friday, but are we past 128 or are we down to 129? HON. S. USKIW: We're on the last item. MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on the last item, Capital Expenditur es. MR. A. ADAM: Wel l, I was going to ask a question on the previous. I'll just leave it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Min ister a question with respect to the valley town dikes. What dikes are being constructed this year? Page 10. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I think I'll have to just agree to provide that information. I don't know which ones we are proceed ing with or whether the agreement's entered into or whate ver. That information is available, I'm sure, but we don't have it here. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister then would take as notice . HON. S. USKIW: No, it does indicate that on Page 10, Mr. Chairman. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, that's what I find somewhat misleading, because the Brunkild dike was basically comple ted last year as were, I believe, some others.

So all the valley towns that come under this program are listed there, yet I am quite certain that most of the upgrading has been done certainly with respect to half of them. I just wanted to know what the appropriation of $1.5 million, which specific communi ties that it was to be directed toward? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, if the member will read the heading under (b), the $1.5 million Includes the first phase of Ste. Rose, so it's not all valley town dikes.

But usually when there is a listing of communi ties under the program, it's because the program has not been either fully completed and it may only be a very minor portion of the work left to do, but it would still be listed. 1t could be a minor thing as seeding down the drain, or the dike, rather. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I will accept that answer. I would like to ask a couple of questions with respect to the La Salle River Diversio n. A couple of pump s were started last fall by the Mini ster's predecessor.

I am wondering if the Mini ster could indicate, if possible, what work is left remaining on that project. There are I believe three or four pumping stations, and if he could indicate what work is left to be done. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's $344,000 - that's two projects, one is Altona. Enh ancement of flows in the La Salle River Basin as well as in Mill Creek -the project consists of three pump sites on the Assiniboine River below Portage la Prairie. Two of the points of water will be diverted Into the La Salle River Basin; at the third point, water will be pumped into Mill Creek.

Water can also be diverted into the La Sane River above Elie from Mill Creek. That's essentially what we are doing now. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I was in attendance last fall when the pumping from the Asslnlboine into the Mill Creek was initiated, and a week later I had to come back because I had a constituent who was finding that the water was not flowing some half-a-mile, I believe, before it entered the Mill town. lt was, in fact, spreading over his land; it was backing up.

That situation may have arose because of the late date that the pump was started and the fact that the ditches may have been full of snow. But I am wondering if the Min ister could undertake to have his officials watch that situation cl ose ly, particularly this fall, in the event that situation returns, because I think it's totally unfair when an individual Is expected to have many acres covered by water which is backing up rather than flowing in the ditch In which it was intended to flow. So I would request that of the Mini ster and the department. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, that's not a problem; we will undertake to do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 12 .(a) -the Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, we will have a chance to debate some of the other issues in the Minister's Salary as well, I guess . HON. S. USKIW: Ye s. MR. J. DOWNEY: . . . so that we can go back If there is something missed earlier. Okay, that's line. HON. S. USKIW: Well, just one caution, Mr. Chairman. The member talks about debate; that's fine. If he wants to be specific, without staff here, we won't be able to give him technical backup information.

We can discuss it in general terms but beyond that it would be difficult. They won't be here for the Minister's Salary. MR. J. DOWNEY: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. I think most of the specific questions have been probably asked and it could be along the philosophical lines with some reference to these details. HON. S. USKIW: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: 12. (a)-pass; 12.(b)- pass; 12 .(c)­ pass. Resolution No. 129: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13,2 95,000 for Natural Resources, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1986- pass.

Back to Item No. 1. (a), Admi nistration and Finance, Minister's Salary - the Member for Arthur . 1345

Monday, 29 April, 1985 MA. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I want to say that this government's record continues to be dismal when it comes to the development and looking after of our natural resources. I don't particularly blame this current Min ister, who has had a very short period of time to become inv olved in the Depart ment of Na tura l Resources and get a hold on that, so I am not saying specificall y. The former Min ister was somewhat of a disa ster.

I know that some of our party members are inte rested in some better things to come, and I was in terested to hear the comments made by the Minister when it comes to looking at the big game ranching - I guess is the proper termin ology. I am sorry I wasn't here earlier to discuss it a little more at that particular time, but it is a matter of policy. I have a constituent who is extremely interested in trying to get into it. He lives at Oak Lake.

He a person who sees a good opportunity - a good husbandry perso n, raises livestock - to increase his income, plus probably help with a resource that we all should be very pleased that we have in this province, unless you live in the Carberry area when they are running through your fences and your crops, but probably would add to the economic benefits of our province and would elimi nate the problem that was just developed over the · bluetongue scare that was In the Swan River Valley with the importation of such animals.

So it makes good common sense to try and develop that kind of an indu stry from your own produc t right here and elimi nates any concern about the disease factor. Another area that I want to talk about, and I think it's extremely Important that we do talk about it, and I don't want either my colleagues or anyone to think that l ·am against the D.U. people or the Ducks Unlimted people, but, Mr. Chairman, I want it on the record what has happened recently in the Oak Lake area again with the same constituent.

Several years ago, there was a piece of property bought In the Assiniboine Valley by the government and leased to D.U.-a pretty good piece of property for production of hay and the growth was tremendous because of the moisture and the top quality soil in the river flat. Last fall, as we are all aware, there was an extreme shortage of livestock feed in the southwest region of the province.

This Individual made application to hay the property, to put hay up. lt would have saved the province some money in transportation charges; it would have saved the farmer some money in buying feed and would have assisted the whole livestock Industry. Well, he was prohibited from going in and doing any of the haying on that particular piece of property where there were tons of hay because of two or three years' growth. He was prohibited from doing that. About a week ago he phoned me, almost in tears, saying do you know what they are doing with the property that D.U. have leased?

They are burning it off -tons of feed that he could have used in his own operation to feed his livestock over the winter months. lt would have cleaned up the duck area that they were going to nest in this year, but what they were doing was going in and burning it off just two weeks ago. 1 find that a waste of resource. I don't call it a multiple use or co-operative use of a resource. lt turns people somewhat against the whole D.U. operation when that kind of thing happens.

So, on his behalf, I asked the Minister, I asked the government if they couldn't reconsider the policy when it comes to the use of some of these leases by D.U. and, as I say, I'm not speaking out against the D.U. program. I do have my thoughts when it comes to paying for some of the crop depredation programs. I think if you're inv olved In producing or helping to produce a prod uct or a bird, that maybe there is some res ponsibility In helping to feed them.

I know that the government, when they have wildli fe mana gement areas, produce deer; they have wildli fe management feed ing programs -not enough in some cases -but there is a res ponsibili ty. What I'm saying Is, the same principle should apply. If your going to provide habitat to produce ducks, then maybe you should provide some feed ing support for those birds. I think Saskatchewan have moved, maybe not this last year, but have recently indicated that kind of a program would be more acceptable to them If you were to help feed the birds as well as help produce them.

I want to, as well, talk for a few minutes on the priorities which I think we should look at, we should look at the expenditure of public funds, and that, of course, is in the development of some of our water projects. I know it's repe tition, but I think it bears repeat ing, that a lot of money is spent to create jobs -job crea tion. I think that a lot of money could be redi rected to be spent in some of our water projects, some of the dams, some of the conservation projects that we've talked about. lt does take a fair amount of manpower to construct some of the projects.

We hear all the ads about the Limestone generating project, and I realize that the Nelson River is a fairly major, pretty heavy piece of water to deal with and it does take manpower to do it.

If the principle of job creation for hydro construction and dev elopment of that resource is to be carried through and supported the way this Min ister and his government carry through and advertise it, possibly the same principle could be applied to water conservation projects In the building of dams for the development and the con tinuin g development of our natural resources, whether they be ducks, whether it be industrial use of water in our towns, whether it be for flood protection for all Manitobans, as well, not just for the exporting of hydro-elec tric power for use in the United States.

So, if the principle of providing funds for job creation in the Limestone project, which I have to put on the record I think is somewhat being overplayed , but I think If that principle, In this government's eyes, holds true, then why not provide some of the funds for some water development projects in the southern reaches of the province to give agriculture, to give the industrial base the kind of water that is needed to carry on.

I make reference particularly to the Winkler area, and the southern region of the province, the Altona area where we're depending on the United States for water out of their water systems. We far too often see signs advertising the land of plenty of water, or the 10,000s of lakes that we have In Manitoba, and yet we have to depend on our friends to the south to bring our water into some of our more major centres in the southern region of the province. So, the p::>int I'm making is, let's repriorize some of our thinkln!J, let's get back to the development of some 1346

Monday, 29 April, 1985 of our basic resources because, if we don't we're all going to suffer in the long run because we'll be continuing to import water and I don't think that's necessary in a country like we live in where we have an abund ance of water in our lakes and our streams. I want to, as well, ask the Minister - and I hope he responds to these in the way in which I ask him - I would like to know what the Minister's policy is when it comes to the expansion of wildlife management areas?

For example, again, I'll make reference to the southwest area where, in the Municipality of Cameron, there are some 11 ,000 acres of wildlife management area which, by the way, the mun icipality don't get one nickel of taxation off of - that's a fairly large block of land not to have any taxes going to the municipality from. There aren't any grants in lieu of taxes, possibly the Minister may consider looking at something like that to support the mun icipalities. Last year, as you know and, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister knows, that we had a major outbreak and we're plagued with grasshoppers in the southwest region of the province. We did not get any support from the Department of Natural Resources, or the municipalities didn't, from the hoppers that were moving out of that big wildlife management area, and we had a commitment early in the year that that would, in fact, take place.

So we have 11 ,000 acres of non -revenue taxation base for the municipality; we have 11, 000 acres producing white-tailed deer which were starved out because of the drought and the grasshoppers and moved onto the farmers fields; we had no support coming from the province as far as spraying of those grasshoppers was concerned and, just to put it in a nutshell, I don't think there is an over amount of happiness about that big chunk of land being tied up in that manne r.

So the question is: will the government be proceeding to add to their wildlife management areas and, if so, what item of priority is that on their agenda? I'll let the Minister respond at this particular time and then I can further comment on his remarks or, Mr. Chairman, is this my one shot at it? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the member raised a few issues, and I'm sure there are many issues that one can raise with respect to the direction of the department, and I guess there are probably more questions out there than answers at the moment.

I have to admit that I have that very same feeling about where the department should be going in a whole host of areas, being so new to it, and having.some perceptions of my own that perhaps have not been shared by the department to date. The member touched on the question of big game ranching as one issue that has to be addressed, and I identify that as one issue that should be addressed because, if there is an opportunity there I think we should weigh that against any negative results that may happen I can't foresee at the moment.

I have discussed that issue with our biologists and they advised me that they don't see any biological reason why big game ranching can't be accepted. So, from that perspective, I don't think it's a problem. If it's has been a problem it may have been one of government just not coming to a policy decision on that issue. But my own feeling on it is that if it's safe to do, then it should be allowed to be done. I know there will always be arguments on the part of some people that believe you shouldn't touch the untamed part of the world, so to speak, and so on, that that's an intrusion in itself.

But that argument can be applied to hunting or a whole host of other human activities where these activities interface with nature. Sometimes when you listen to those arguments you come to the conclusion that human beings aren't part of nature and, therefore, they have no role to play. One can draw some extreme views on that. But, no, I think there's room there and we are going to be examining that policy area fairly soon, as a matter of fact. it's one of the policy issues that I have already highlighted for my department to come to grips with. Ducks Unlimited Is another one, their role in Manitoba.

The member is probably aware that they are a major actor with respect to wildlife development or wildlife area development, waterfowl marsh development, etc., right across North America, headquartered of course here in Mani toba for the Canadian section, and emphasizing a lot of their activities in Manitoba, but basically not by choice but I think by reason of the fact that we are the catch basin, we are the drainage basin of the whole piece of North America; therefore the environment is conduc ive to that kind of development, and for the propagation of waterfowl in particular.

So we are a natural setting for that kind of activity. My own feelings toward Ducks Unlimited is one where I think they're doing a fairly credible job. I know there is always a concern from other users of a resource that are jealous about setting aside any amount of land area for wildlife or waterfowl purposes. On the other hand, I think it's fair to say that our environment would be the loser, let's put it that way, if we weren't able to see a flock of geese or a herd of deer on occasion. I think there's a value to that, and society thinks there's a value to that.

So we don't want to maintain a policy which doesn't allow the co-existence to take place and it's always a bit of a tricky act to decide what the balance should be. The arguments of those who want more land area set aside are based on - I gather they're facts - that we have depleted our refuge areas or our land area for the propagation of wildlife and waterfowl, and continue to deplete that area by 4 percent a year, statistically. Notwithstanding all the developments that have been put on the other side of the ledger, there is still more being taken out than what's being put back in by these special projects.

So that in Itself has to be a concern if it is factual. We have to address ourselves to that. I have to give credit to a lot of the associations, certainly to the Wildlife Federation, and to other individuals who are making very major sacrifices in favour of developing wildlife habitat. People who are willing to commit their own land resources by way of donation to the projects have to be commanded, but society has to recognize why that has happened. lt Is happening because there is a serious problem In that area.

So governments unfortunately are caught in a position of having to always do the high wire act between various pressure groups for the use of land. There will be those 1347

Monday, 29 April, 1985 who will argue that we should dig deeper ditches to drain deeper potholes in order to farm more acres of land, that's the other extreme. I really think one of the areas that we should be looking at is, and it's got to be long term and it's expensive, and that is in the area of water conservation, of trapping more water upstream rather than draining it out as quickly as we can, establish huge reservoirs in various parts of the province so that we don't make arid a huge region, and always have a source of water supply.

These are going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars before they're put in place, but I think that's the direction - (Interjection) - well, it could be billions, yes. I don't know what the numb ers would be. But I think it is fair to say that we have taken water for granted. Certainly in Canada we have. If you talk to people in the United States, you will find that there is a very deep concern about water resources, a very deep concern. They're talking about projects that would cost $20 billion to bring water in from Canada back into the States. So we've got to start weighing these things.

There is a balance that has to be somehow arrived at and it's never going to be perfect, but we have to recognize the various components that have to be addressed. I can't argue with the Member for Arthur with respect to these projects generating employment. it's obvious that they would and they do, and that speaks for itself. I guess the question is: how much of them can we afford at one time? That, of course, brings up the question of government priorities, and that speaks for itself. In tough economic times you have to make some tough decisions, and these decisions are collective ones. MR. J.

DOWNEY: You've got to be tough around the Cabinet table. HON. S. USKIW: That's right. it is very tough around the Cabinet table. In fact, in all my years involved in government I have never been put through a wringer as I have in the last few years when it comes to putting through Estimates. There is nothing sacred anymore in terms of givens. Everything is challenged. lt's that magic number at the end of the exercise that everyone is looking for, and that is the size of the surplus or deficit and we certainly don't have the luxury of even thinking in terms of surpluses these days. MR. J. DOWNEY: What's a surplus?

HON. S. USKIW: That's right, a very good point. The Member for Arthur says: "What's a surplus?" If we're not careful we'll have to remove it from the dictionary, that word, you know. We have a problem. Capital projects are an easy target when you want to balance books for any administration, especially if they are deemed to be current account expenditures and that's what we are deem ing them to be in these programs, highways or drainage works. They are looked upon as current account deficits; they are not looked upon as capital account deficits. That creates a very difficult problem for government in trying to, (

a) balance books, and yet at the same time try to meet some of these challenges and needs. I would have to admit that we in this province have slipped badly In the last number of years with respect to both maintaining highway infrastructure and our water projects. There's no doubt about that. I just don't know how long it's going to be before we can turn that arou nd. That will have to hinge on economic performance, which is where the wherewithal will come from to accomplish those things.

The question of wildlife management areas re loss of revenue to local governments, I think that's a fair one; it should be looked at. I'm not sure how serious it is, but it may be in some municipalities. I think that's something that can be addressed but, you know, there is no easy solution to that at the present time. So, Mr. Chairman, that pretty well sums up my response to those issues that were raised by the Member for Arthur, and I'm sure there are a whole host of others. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I'll yield until some of my other colleagues make their points.

I have one other issue I want to deal with with the Minister before MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I should have brought this in before I'm sure under Surveys and Mapping but, however, I wasn't available at the time. I'll bring it forward now. lt's a bit of a gruesome story that I have to tell. I was stopped over the weekend by a resident of Portage la Prairie who asked me to make an inquiry about his brother's death that took place in the last war. He apparently was killed while fighting in the front in Holl and on the Zuider Zee; his body was not recovered.

This brother, Mr. Dan Larkin, asked me if it was possible for me to enquire from the Minister regarding the naming of a lake that was to be made in honour of his brother, Ed Larkin. Apparently, this is in the process and he's wondering if some information could be brought forward. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure whether this hasn't already been processed.

I have signed so many of them, I can't remember them all, of course, but there is a program and a policy with respect to that proposal that the member is suggesting here today, that we do recognize people who served time in the military and gave their years for the country, after whom we would be prepared to name lakes. There is a process for that. I'll certainly undertake to check that particular name for the benefit of the Member for Portage la Prairie, it's probably In the mill somewhere, if it hasn't already been approved. MR. L. HYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Minister for looking this up for me. lt will certainly, I'm sure, will appease the minds of the family. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Over the weekend, apparently at some national wildlife forum or conference, one of the headline speakers listed the large number of endangered species of birds and wildlife that's In our province and apparently the list is a lengthy 1348

Monday, 29 April, 1985 one. The comment which I heard on the radio has caught me completely off-guard. I wonder ... A MEMBER: That was Don Scott you heard. MR. W. McKENZIE: No, it wasn't Scott. I don't know whether the conference was in Winnipeg or not, but it was apparently a national one. But I'm just wondering maybe the Minister and his staff already have studies to that effect, of the numb er of endangered species that we have in this province and what we could do, as legislators, to assist in the preservation of these treasures which are entrusted to our care.

Maybe the Minister would comment on the subject, if he's familiar with it. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I know that there are endangered species, I don't know what they are. I'm sure we have data on that question, I just don't have the answers here for the member, but I can certainly undertake to get the information. MR. W. McKENZIE: The numbers is what shook me. The numb ers are rather huge from this address that was publi cized on the media, and that's what concerned me.

Maybe it's something we, as legislators, should be dev oting our attention to because, when they'r e endangered, we have a special duty, I think, to perform and the department as well. The other thing that I'd like to try and get the department and the government and the Minister is to take another look at the development of hydro in the Blue Lakes area where the lines are apparently within 12 miles of this, what most people call one of the beautiful lakes in the province. lt's a service centre for the area; it is the heart of the park. HON. S. USKIW: What area is that? MR. W. McKENZIE: Blue Lakes, Sam. HON. S.

USKIW: Blue Lakes. MR. W. McKENZIE: Yes, East Blue Lake. lt has the most popular facilities and the hig hest camper and visitor population of any campground in Duck Mountain Provincial Park. lt's the headquarters in the summer months for the Minister's Park Patrol, they use that as their headquarters. The supply and storage sheds for park maintenance are all there in the campsite. The power line was cut from Childs Lake to East Blue Lake a few years ago, but it was set aside, it became a priority and was set aside. Now it would need scrubbing and widening to start with, so there are some jobs there.

They' re tr yin g to operate ther e with generators, and I know they also charge the batteries for the Telephone System with their generator. Last year, he had a breakdown there in August and it was an absolute . . . all those people there. He has a little backup generator, and it could only handle maybe a quarter of the capacity of the other one. Of course, all those people confined there in July-August, and it was a nightmare in that area. So I just wonder if sometime that the government will take a look.

I don't know, they say the costs are prohibi tive, but this type of life which is going to lakes and beaches In the summertime isn't going to go away. lt is a well-managed, well-handled campground, and it's expanding all the time. The line, as I understand it, is within 12 miles. Another thing, last year they paved the road from Ethelbert up to the park, and they shifted the hydro lines. If they had just finished the job then. They've also laid cable in there for the Telephone System. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm aware of the fact that we don't have service there.

I really don't know what the cost would be to bring it there, I'm surprised that it was undertaken and then abandoned, but I can try and get the information on it. MR. W. McKENZIE: At one time you see, there was a lodge at Childs Lake. What was the lady's name, she owned the hotel in Ethelbert after that? Oh gosh, I can't think of her name. The Hydro was in to supply them, that hotel was at Childs, and the intention then was to extend it to Blue Lakes and it was never completed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would add to the Member for Roblin-Russell's comment, Blue Lakes Is a fine campground and it's a beautiful lake for fishing in that area. I'm sure that power in there would enhance the operation and also open up an area, that tourists could enjoy some of the amenities that are lacking in the wilderness for those that don't like to go into the wilderness comple tely. They like to have fairly good acc ommodation and all the conveniences and it will be worthwhile. I'm glad the Minister is looking into it.

Most of my questions I was going to cover have been covered under big game ranching and I'm happy to see the Minister thro ughout our discussion on the Estimates, Mr. Chairman, the Minister appears to have taken a common sense approach, as he referred to on more th an one occasion, and I think th at Is commendable. lt's something that has to be done and is long overdue in the department and certainly was lacking with the former Minister.

He had some odd ideas that may have come from his legislative advisor or assistant and swayed him on some of his decisions and it was difficult to get the common sense approach through. I realize the Minister Is facing many problems that are common throughout all of the departments and I know the road situation and the bridge situation throughout his department is similar to that which has been experienced by the Hi ghways Department. The roads are deteriorating badly and are going to require massive expenditures over the next few years to bring them Into any shape whatsoever.

But our parks are certainly enjoyed by a tremendous number of visitors, Mr. Chairman, and I'm happy to see that upgrading is continuing. lt's never enough, of course, to bring them into the top condition that we'd like to see them In. I know ther e are other roadside parks and rest stops requir ed to bring us up to the standards that are enjoyed by some other provinces and especially in Europe on the main arteries there. 1349

Monday, 29 April, 1985 They just have a tremendous network of rest stops and some day I hope that our main highways offer the travelling motorist and the tourist those same facilities because they make a visit to your province so much more memorable and so much more enjoyable, that leaving a province that has those facilities and going into one that hasn't certainly has a startling impact on visitors. They leave with an excellent impression if those facilities are available to them. So I don't know whether any other members want to touch on various other concerns, Mr.

Chairman, but with those remarks, I urge the Minister to keep an open mind and listen to those who are out in the field and have knowledge of what is going on. I share the Member for Roblin's concern if we are indeed threatened with the number of end angered species that he referred to.

I know there are one or two and I think you'll find the hunters and the farmers in our province are as good conservationists as you'll find and I kno w tha t they will co-operate full y if something is brought to their attention, that an animal or a bird that is about to become extinct, they will certainly co-operate and do what they can to help sustain the species. . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Glad stone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are two or three things I wanted to mention.

In the Capital project in Park Devel opment, did the Minister hand out a list of parks or just strictly park development projects? HON.· S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I think we did some three or four days ago. I know we had a whole sheaf of them so they must have been handed out. MRS. C. OLESON: Okay. I can get that later.

But I did want to mention again the Lynch's Point, - well, I consider it a problem, the Minister may not - I feel it was a shame that people who had worked for that park for many many years were not given the - well, they were given the opportunity to tender on the park, but they would much prefer to still just be emplo yed there by the department and it not be tendered out - but feeling that they wanted to still work there, they tendered on it and were not successful in getting the tender. I feel that really seems unfair to people who have put in many many years of work.

For instance, one family member who had worked there for 22 years at that particular park, you could say that he's put the best years of his working life into that facility and definitely feels just a trifle betrayed that he has not - not a trifle more than a trifle betrayed - been asked to continue. His wife, I may be mistaken, but I think it's 12 or 14 years that she has worked there also and the son for seven years, and they intended to work as a family unit with their tender and felt they had a great deal to contribute to that particular park facility.

They feel that they should really have been called in to discuss their tender, in that they had in it a great numb er of plans for the future that perhaps the department felt were expensive, but perhaps if ther e had been some discussion they could have been left out. But they feel that it's a very important park facility and they're right. lt is a very nice natural spot away from heavy traffic where people from the area, particularly from Portage and the Gladstone area, like to go to camp, to shall we say get away from it all, that it is quiet and just really suitable for the purposes of a great many campers.

I think perhaps the department has overlooked a valuable emplo yee in not giving them that tender. I think they're going to be into a problem next year, as the Minister indicated when I was talking about this before, that they will try to find jobs for them.

Well, with the economic situation the way it is and things don't look too bright for needing more people in that field, so they can't really figure out where they would be moved to if they were moved to another park, that all the facilities are being cut back in hours of work. lt was ind icated to me that they found it rather interesting last year that their hours of work were cut back and they were told what part of the grass to mow and so forth and to leave out some of it and they had just as many people there. lt wasn't the manpo wer that was being paid for, it would only be the gas to run the tractors that were already there to cut the grass.

So they felt that was a little bit odd, that they might as well keep it up to its best when they were there anyway . lt just indicates some of the feeling that these people have for that facility. They're anxious to work for it. I hope the Minister will keep that in mind when, perhaps even for other people as well - the future of these park tenders - to give a great deal of consideration to the people who have put in a greater part of their working lives to work for these facilities and have a great feeling for them at how they operate.

I hope the Minister will also, in going into another subject, when he's considering plans for the future, will think a great deal about the problem in the Whitemud and Big Grass Marsh area and start something going in the the department for the long term development of that area.

Nobody is expecting an instant cure, of course, but if we don't ever start we don't ever get anything done. lt seems to me with the technology we have today, the work projects that I see across the province and the big thrust of this government to employ people, that might be a worthwhile endeavour to get started on. lt probably could be developed in stages, and it would give these people some sense of the future of the area because they're always under the threat of flood, and they never know just what conditions might happen in years that may seem very good for others and all of a sudden they are flooded, even after they get their crops in.

Then, of course, the other area that I was mentioning the other night, the wildlife damage. I hope that the Minister, when the Wildlife Damage Committee comes to visit him, that he will consider their brief seriously. I am sure they are eager to work with him and the people emplo yed at the park to see if there can be some resolution to that longstanding problem. As I said in my remarks the other night, the staff employed at the park have been very very co-operative, the crop insurance people have been co-operative, but there needs to be some change in the way that the wildlife damage has been dealt with.

As I said before, I think that one of the recommendations that will be 13 50

Monday. 2SI April, 1985 coming forward from that committee is that it be put into the Agriculture Department with crop insurance similar to what happened to the water fowl damage just recently. lt will be interesting when that unfolds to see if that is workable. Sometimes I think farmers feel that there is not enough continu ity, or going back and forth, between the Natural Resources and the Agricultural Comm ittees. They go to one department and they say, well, no, that's the responsibility of the other, and they sort of stand in the middle and wonder what on earth they can do to get this sorted out.

The Memb er for Arthur menti oned wildl ife management areas. There is another problem where I think there is a lack of commu nication between Agriculture and Natural Resources in that department because last fall I had a constituent calling me about wanting to pasture some cattle on an emergency basis on a piece of land adjacent to his own and found that it had just been declared a wildlife management area, and the only thing that was supposed to be grazing or browsing there were deer, but nobody had informed the deer of this change of policy, so they weren't there.

In the meantime, his cattle were hungry and thirsty because he wanted that piece of land because there was an adjacent water supply, and the whole thing resulted in him not getting the land because I have spent a great deal of time on the phone talking between the two departments and not getting anywhere. The wildlife people, of course, are interested in wildlife, and the agricultural people are interested in agriculture, but they don't seem to get together and work out something that can be mutually beneficial to both of them.

I think the departments need to take a good long look at this and see if they can work something because I am sure the cattle and the deer can work it out, if the departments could only do so. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, the member raises a number of valid issues for consideration. The last point she makes, I would like to make some comment on. I was amazed during my discussions with the various interest groups throughout Manitoba, in the course of our dialogue meetings, about how much understanding there is between agriculture and people who have a truly wildlife interest.

In attending a lot of the functions, I found that a lot of farmers are members of the Wildlife Association, and there is real compatibility there developing. I think that we have to nurse that along and bridges of understanding are being built daily through that process. I think that augers well for the future. I know there are some anxieties out there, and that's inevitable because they are competitive interests at work.

But I was impressed with the amount of co­ operation that already is to be found and th e understanding of the other point of view, even not necessarily agreement but at least an appreciation for it, that is already present amongst people throughout Manitoba. So we have to develop that a little more and through that process I think we will develop a better co-ordination of use of our resources. I would like to ask the Member for Gladstone what her thoughts would be if I said to her that it's still not a closed door with respect to Lynch's Point. We still haven't signed an agreement for privatizing the park.

But would it be her opinion that perhaps we should rethink that and not privatize it? MRS. C. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, that certainly would be my opinion of it. To me a public park should be run by the public and that particular park is small.

I never could figure out in discussions with the staff people there, how the government would figure that if they couldn't make a dollar on it - which you don't really expect as parks are not there to make a dollar, they are there to be used as parks - and I can never figure out why it would be tendered and how the government would expect anybody to make any money on it. To me, it's rather a mystery; maybe there's something that I don't know about it - obviously there prob ably is - tha t the department does. But to me it should continue.

Maybe there were too many staff, maybe there was some expenses that are not absolutely necessary. There may be some consideration to collecting more fees because the staff, if they are there anyway, could collect the fees without sitting right in the booth there because I know . HON. S. USKIW: I think that's a free park. Is there a fee for that? MRS. C. OLESON: No, there are fees to be - well, maybe if it is free they could start charging some fees because it's indicated to me in that one and many other places that people are quite willing to pay for the services they get.

They don't expect everything for nothing. They would be quite willing to pay boat launching fees, camping fees, day use fees and so forth if anyone collected them. So I think that yes, that particular park and roadside parks should be left in the hands of the department. HON. S. USKIW: That's fine. 1351 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask a few more specific questions and then another general comment and question to the Minister. He didn't respond specifically when I talked to him about the grasshopper infestation.

The Department of Agriculture this year are projecting probably a worse year than last as far as grasshopper infestation in the southwest region of the province. Will the Minister be providing funds to assist with the spraying of grasshoppers in the Wildl ife Management area, or bordering it; or any other form of assistance for the municipality or for the farmers who don't get any provincial tax revenue out of that particular area? Will he be providing any grasshopper programs in the Wildlife Management areas this year? HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I really don't know what the normal practice has been, but it is a point that ought to be looked at because grasshopper infestation is usually widespread in a given area and unless you control them throughout the whole area,

Monday, 29 April, 1985 then it's almost futile for those who are trying to apply control measures to carry on with their program. I am willing to look at that. I just don't know what the policy Is or has been. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, last year as I indicated, the people of the southwest, the municipal councillors, were given the indication that there would be support coming from the Department of Natural Resources. There never was any support provided to the spraying of grasshoppers.

You can well imagine the Sandhill area of the Deleau, Grande-Ciairi ere, in that whole area, it's a perfect breeding ground for grasshoppers, light sandy soil and heavy infestat ion, with that many acres of land that is not really being utilized for anything but deer habitat and whatever other Mother Nature wants to roam in there, it Is a real hot spot and I think it would have been a little bit more fairer for the government to have lived up to the commitment. I was at a mee ting in Pi pestone which I felt there was a commitment there.

Sub sequently , it wasn't foll owed up with and that's why I'm asking today if the Minister is prepared to provide some form of assistance. I know that he's not going to because he hasn't got staff here to make comment, but I ask him if he doesn't think there should be form of assistance provided in such an area. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I thought I did cover that a moment ago when I said that it may be very logical to have total control of a given area where there is a grasshopper control program under way, without which one may not have an effect ive program, and I'm prepared to take a look at that as a new Initiative. MR. J. DOWNEY: I appreciate the comments. I'm not leaving with any firm support as the Minister has been very careful in making sure he hasn't promised anything.

I, as well, want to remind the Min ister that early in the discussion period, there was a commitment made to meet with a constituent of mine dealing with the Hartney Dam. Has he got a time, or would he provide a time for me to communicate back to that individual who's anxious to meet with him? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of the member, that was a subject matter of about two hours of discussion this morning with my departmental people, and I will be com muni cating with that ind ividual, persuant to that discussion. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Well, I'm much appreciativ e of that because the man whom I referring to called me this morning and I indicated I would be going back into Estimates today, but in view of the fact you were in Estima tes I'm sure that you wer en't able to get back to him and deal with it. So I do appreciate that. On the larger question of the Souris River and some of the concerns that have been put forward, what currently is taking place at this particular time? What expenditures does the Department of Natural Resources have incurred upon it dealing with the Garrison?

Could the Min ister give me his personal view and what his policy is now as a department In dealing with the overall Garrison question? Is he satisfied that recent changes made in the U.S. program is sufficient? Is he in full communic ation with the International Joint Water Commission? Is there a good relationship there? What is the current situation? I wonder if he could give us an update. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I would have to guess that the member was not here the other day when I dealt with the Garrison issue. MR. J. DOWNEY: I'm sorry, I wasn't. HON. S.

USKIW: If he checks Hansard, I gave a full statement on Garrison. MR. J. DOWNEY: Okay, okay. HON. S. USKIW: But just to recap, we are going along with the stance of the Government of Canada for the moment with some reservat ion. We have expressed those reserv ations quite clearly to the Governme nt of Canada and to the people south of the border when we met with them and that hasn't changed.

As the member Is aware, the Government of Canada has forwarded a diplomatic note expressing some support for the revised program and that Lonetree would not be proceeded with unless there was ample consultation or a satisfactory conclusion of consultations with Canada In our position, as we would have preferred to have Lonetree cancelled. We 've made that point known; but however that's not what was contained in the Canadian note.

But we're assured that they will not proceed with the construction of the reservoir unle ss its need has been justified and consultations with Manitoba and Canada have reached a satisfactory conclusi on. Now, therein lies the hook or what does that mean, a satisfactory conclusion? A satisfactory conclusion to whom? Will we be all in agreement, or will it matter? So we're still somewhat concerned, but not nearly as concerned as we were. We think we have won a major victory on that issue and we've indicated our willing ness to continue with the consultation process. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, I'm sorry, through you, Mr.

Chairman, to the Min ister, I will go over the statement that he tabled. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of the member there, it is ... MR. J. DOWNEY: Okay, I'm sorry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to say I think there's a considerable amount of confusion in the mind of the public at this particular point as to what the government policy is, what the status of the current Garrison system is because of the presidential review that took place and I know, because of the constituency which I represent , it's been difficult to sort the whole thing out.

I think people are doing that and I think there are certain people who are extremely concerned, particularly in the fisheries areas. I know I have some constituents who are concerned about water supplies 1352

Moncbly, 21 April, 1185 in that whole area and I encour age the Minister though, setting the Garrison aside, to actively participate with Saskatchewan and North Dakota on some other projects without dealing on Garrison. I think there are some objective projects that can be discussed there and I think that's the basic desire of a lot of the people. In concluding my remarks, Mr. Chairman, as the deputy critic for Natural Resources, I want to say I'm sorry that my colleague, the Member for Emerson, who is the critic, through no fault of his own, was unable to be here to conclude these remarks.

I think he put forward a very active review of them on behalf of the opposition as a I think the Minister, in certain areas, we could find agreement with him. However, In a general philosophical way, there are still some areas where we have a difficult time, particularly when it comes to the priorization of spending of money within his department. He makes comments about not having enough funds for water projects for certain things. That, Mr. Chairman, has to come from himself sitting around the Cabinet table as he is well aware.

Now again, I'm not particularly anxious to criticize this Minister although I criticize his philo sophy and some of the policies which he's supportive of in more general terms. The former Minister was a complete disaster in Natural Resources. I mean he was a disaster and I say this ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The member is not here to defend himself. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I can't help that. He has the freedom to come to this committee the same as anyone else. However, Mr. Chairman, I'll take your judgment. I'll say it directly to him some other time when it can have more of an impact on him.

But what I'm saying is that we have to start to reconsidering and repriorlzing; the government has to. We talk about the job creation in the Limestone. There are many other projects, areas where money can be spent to develop our basic resources and to maintain the kind of country that we should be maintaining. it's his responsi bility and he knows it - to go to the Cabinet table and to put the best case forward on behalf of the department and on behalf of the people who he repres ents. I know that my colleague may have had other comments that he may have wanted to make.

I have found it helpful, the discussions that have taken place, and on his behalf I thank the Minister for his responses and look forward to beating him on the Natural Resources policy when the election is called. HON. s. USKIW: If that concludes the remarks from the opposition, I would like to just make a brief . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: lt depends on what you say because we may want to have the last say. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we do, the Member for Portage is raising his hand. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, just . MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister will make the concluding remarks. HON. S.

USKIW: I simply want to put on the record that I was pleased with constructive attitude of members of the commi ttee with respect to issues in this department and would again reconfirm that my views are not all entrenched on issues that were raised. We'll be reviewing a lot of those suggestions over the course of the next 12 months, and whatever those reviews result in will be self-revealing the next time around that this committee meets to consider these Estimates. So I want to thank members opposite for bearing with us. Sometimes we didn't have all of the Information handy, but members were patient.

I am hopeful that we have satisfied their queries, if you like. MR. J. DOWNEY: We hope you're on this side next year, Sam. HON. S. USKIW: I'm not going to speculate on that, Mr. Chairman. But, in any event, I think it's been a good, productive committee exercise, one of the better ones that I have experienced over the years. Thank you. A MEMBER: The last one's usually the best , Sam. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)- pass.

Resolution 11 8: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not excee ding $4,012,2 00 for Natural Resources, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1986-p ass. The committee shall take a recess for as long as it might be needed to give enough time for the staff of the Department of Municipal Affairs to get ready. HON. S. USKIW: Eight o'clock tonight, Mr. Chairman, for Municipal Affairs. MR. CHAIRMAN: I was instructed to give this kind of thing so we can recess up until 8:00 p.m. if you want. HON. S. USKIW: lt's hardly worth starting now. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I am at the hands of the committee. A MEMBER: Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Health, Item 7. Manitoba Health Services Commission, Line 1, Administration - the Member for Pem bina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, to finish off some of the questions on out-of-province health servicing and with particular reference to Manitobans seeking diagnostic services out of province even into the Mayo Clinic In the United States as one example, now, it's my underst anding the policy is that, No. 1, Comm ission approval is required; No. 2, the reimbu rsement for services rendered will only be at the rates that are set 1353

Monday, 29 April, 1985 by MHSC for the service as if it was provided in Manitoba. Now, given that certain procedures are backed up for several weeks and even into six weeks, will the Commission view that as reason sufficient to justify a patient going out of province to receive those diagnostic procedu res even if it means that they would be going to Gr and Forks or Rochester, Minnesota? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I would believe that the Commission would have to make the judgment if it is urgent.

If it's just an elective procedure that could be done here and that the person could wait, then they would be treated simply like all Manitobans. MR. D. ORCHARD: So then if a Manitoban could and his physician presumably could make the case that this service, diagnostic procedure, canno