LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 21 April, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Rus­ sell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiv­ ing Petitions . . . Presenting Reports By Standing and Special Committees . . . Mini sterial Statements and Tabling of Reports ... Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne) introduced Bill No. 13 ,

An Act to amend The Defamation Act. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside) introduced Bill No. 47,

An Act to amend The Land Acquisition Act. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER (Emerson) on behalf of Mr. Domino introduced Bill No. 29,

An Act to amend

an Act respecting Victoria General Hospital. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed with Oral Ques­ tions I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the Speaker's Gallery where we have a very distinguished visitor in the person of the Speaker of the Alberta Legislature, The Honourable Gerald Amerongen. We also have Mr. Bob Rae, Member of Parliament for Broadview-Greenwood in Toronto, and his wife Arlene. We have 25 students of Grades 7 to 9 Standing from the General Wolfe School under the direction of Mr. Mathers.

This school is in the constituency of the Hon­ ourable Member for Wellington. And we have 22 students of Grades IV and V Standing from the Gladstone School under the di rection of Miss Penner. This school is in the constituency of the Hon­ ourable Member for Fort Rouge. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mini ster of Health and relates to the reports pertaining to the hospital bed situation, one that has been described by Dr.

Gerry Bristow as a hor­ ror show at best. Can the Mini ster confirm that at the Health Sciences Centre there are but 18 beds available for neurosurgery and only 4 neurosurgeons that are avai lable to provide medical services pertaining to same? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): No, Mr. Speaker, I can't confirm that and I wish to advise the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that with respect to the remarks of Dr.

Bristow that were quoted in one of the Winnipeg newspapers on Saturday, the remarks were foreshortened and to a great degree out of con- text with the general situation. I am assured by the Health Sciences Centre this morning that they do not accurately reflect the situation there. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further to the Minister of Health and Social Development: If the remarks do not describe the situation would the Minister be prepared to indicate by what manner the present situation at the Health Sciences Centre and elsewhere, by way of bed shortages, is contributing towards critical situations pertaining to patient lives within the province? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am assured that the situation does not impact in that manner, that is the suggestion that there is an impact on patient lives.

There is no question that the bed supply in Winnipeg, which I might say equals or exceeds the accepted national average and exceeds the level to which many jurisdictions are aiming, the bed supply in Winnipeg at the present time has a full and heavy demand on it. The occupancy rate is very high. However, Sir, the emergency cases and critical cases and necessary sur­ gical cases are being taken care of and I can only rei­ terate that my investigations would indicate that it's an exaggeration in the minimum to suggest that there is an impact on patient lives. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, first I would appreciate the Minis ter confirming that he will return to me with information pertaining to the number of neurosurgeons and beds that are ava ilable at the Health Sciences Centre, but secondly to inquire from the Minister whether or not, exaggerated or not, the reports in Sat­ urday's paper, the present situation has been contrib­ uted to on the basis of the closure of 79 beds two weeks ago at the Health Sciences Centre due to a shortage of nurses. MR. SHERMAN: Sir, that's a difficult question to an­ swer precisely.

I'll certainly attempt to provide a com­ plete answer for the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The fact of the matter is that that all hos­ pitals in Winnipeg normally close a number of beds during the summer. We expect some summer bed clo­ sures. There are always some, because patient volume is down. The situation this year appears to have de­ veloped in what is a normal summer fashion, perhaps a little earlier than usual, and there is a high occupancy rate at the present time.

Normally at this time of year the occupancy rate de­ clines with the onset of milder, better weather, and there isn't the occupancy rate that we're experiencing at the moment. Whether or not the closure of those 79 beds at the Health Sciences Centre has impacted di­ rectly on the current situation, I can only investigate for the Honourable Leader. I can't give him a firm answer on that at this point.

But I can assure him that we are in touch with the hospitals daily as to their situations, and we're assured that, with the exception of the Health Sciences Centre, there are no unusual closures antic­ ipated, although there will be regular summer bed closures. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary to the Mini ster. If indeed the vacancies are earlier than 2695

Monday, 21April, 1980 usual, and usually the situation takes place later into summer, can the Minis ter advise, in view of the fact there is an earlier, critical situation developing, what that situation will be like during the normal period of vacancy and occupancy relief, as he made reference to in early summer, such as June? MR. SHERMAN: Our reading of the situation at the moment, based on reports from the hospitals con­ cerned, Mr.

Speaker, is that other than the situation at the Health Sciences Centre, it will not be an unusual situation, that is a situation different from any other summer, although there may be a few additional clo­ sures at Misericordia. They normally close from 30 to 35 beds during the summer and that figure is not firm or fixed yet. -(ln terjectwion)- Well, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition says, this is spring, that's true, and as I said to him, this normally starts to take place in about the month of May.

It appears that we have a situation that has developed a little earlier than usual this year, but normally the Misericordia, for example, would close 30 to 35 beds early in the summer and they would not re-open them until the fall. They will be doing that again this year. They might be closing a half dozen additional to that, but I can't give him those firm figures yet. At the moment it appears the basic problem has been at the Health Sciences Centre where the resignations of some 60, 65 nur ses produced the bed closures that he is familiar with. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Me mber for Transcona. MR.

WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Health. In view of the fact that he is changing his explanations as to the number of beds that will be available for acute care in hospitals in Manitoba, and he's changed his explana­ tions over the last three weeks, is he in a position now to tell us the extent of the bed closures that will occur over the course of the next two months, to ensure us that people who are in need of emergency surgery, or acute elective surgery, can in fact, have that surgery performed? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can give him that assurance.

That's what I was alluding to when I said in my first answer that the situation portrayed carried on Saturday is not accurate, does not accurately reflect the situation. With respect to the reference to changes, I reject that, Mr. Speaker. There have been no changes whatsoever.

We have attempted to monitor the hos­ pitals conditions, we found the Health Sciences Centre, having taken action in response to a situation there which is action that we would have welcomed the op­ portunity to participate in at a point in time when it might have been possible to minimize the action taken, other than that, we have not been confronted with any surprises. MR. PARASIUK: A supplementary to the Minister. I would like to point out to him that we were told there would be no bed shortages, then we were told that bed shortages would be isolated to the Health Sciences Centre.

Now I'd like to ask him if the situation is not acute at Concordia Hospital, where last week a patient was sent home with a brain tumor and told to take an ambulance to try and get into the Health Sciences Centre, so that he may have a brain tumor operation. He has since been informed that he is eleventh on the waiting list. Could the Min ister explain whether in fact that is considered to be an acute and dire situation with respect to bed shortages in hospitals in Winnipeg? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the Hon­ ourable Member for Transcona that when beds are occupied to the occupancy level that exists at the pres­ ent time, which is high, and I think higher than usual for this time of year, particularly for this kind of weather, when beds are occupied to this occupancy level, it is not unusual for hospitals to transfer patients from one hospital to another.

It is not unusual, and in fact I've been in discussion with the hospitals on that subject in the past 48 hours and I'm assured that it's done frequently, and it's been done in years past, and it's been done in the years during which my honourable friends were in government in this province. There are most hospital beds in this city in a state of occupancy at the present time. That does not indicate a bed shortage in terms in which my honourable friend is presenting it. What it indicates is a high occupancy rate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tran­ scona with a final supplementary. MR.

PARASIUK: Yes, I'd like to ask the Min ister if he considers it acceptable for hospitals to tell patients to go home and call an ambulance and have that am­ bulance take him to another hospital so that these patients may in fact get access to emergency surgery. Is that acceptable for the government? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, if that were the norm in the health care system, I would have to say that that would not be acceptable, but it is not the norm, nor is it totally or entirely unusual in cases of high bed oc­ cupancy.

I remind my honourable friend of the 1974 period, when 100 beds were closed in the Health Sci­ ences Centre, and at that point in time, there was some considerable difficulty in finding admissions in other hospitals for patients that normally would have gone to the Health Sciences Centre. Regrettably, we're deal­ ing with a science and a field that is not precise, it is not accurate at all times and it cannot always be an­ ticipated down to the last bed and the last patient what the demands in February, March, April or May may be.

The beds seem to be occupied to a higher degree at the present time than would normally be the case at this time of the year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minis­ ter. The Minister made a statement that the number of acute beds are comparable to other jurisdictions and are what we feel they should be.

Is the Minis ter talking about acute beds now presently being occupied by people that need this acute care, or is the Minister taking into consideration the number of beds that are allowed, including those that are closed and those that are occupied by people that have been panelled to go in personal care homes but cannot go because there's a shortage of personal care beds? 2696

Monday, 21 April, 1980 MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm talking about both. There are 5, 700 active treatment beds in Manitoba, which works out, obviously, to a ratio of 5.7 per thou­ sand. My honourable friends knows full well that the accepted yardstick for good quality care and good quality ratio in North America, is at best 4.5 per thou­ sand and in many jurisdictions they talk in terms of 4 per thousand, and I might say that the province of Al­ berta and the province of Ontario have stated publicly that they're intending to get down to 3.5 per thousand.

We have 5.7 per thousand, so we are not short of hos­ pital beds. We do have a number of beds occupied by long-stay patients and at the Health Sciences Centre the number who are there and who have been panelled for personal care totals approximately 70, Mr. Speaker. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, repeatedly, you have suggested that we read Beauchesne; I try to restrict my question to a question of clarification of the state­ ment of the Minister and all I receive is a speech. I want to compare apples and apples and oranges and or­ anges. It is a different thing, Mr.

Speaker, if the Minis ter says that we're looking at both. And is the Mini ster . . . my question is -(Int erjection)- when you be­ come the speaker I will listen to you, in the meantime, keep quiet. Mr. Speaker, I would like the Minister also to answer. Does he feel that he has the credibility that we will believe that he is concerned about these beds that are closed when all this policy of cost first and need second and the budget that he's allowing the hospital to work with, makes it physically impossible to keep on giving the services and keeping all the facilities open with an 8 percent increase? MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. Order, please. May I suggest that we are getting into a debate rather than a period when we are trying to seek information. I would suggest to the honourable member that perhaps his remarks should be kept until we get into Estimates. Order please. Order, please. I suggest that perhaps honourable members should keep their remarks . . . MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, briefly, I can respond to that question. I am assured by the hospitals in ques­ tion that the present condition has nothing to do, and I have that in writing, nothing to do with their budgets.

It has to do with resignations of some nurses. MR. DESJARDINS: I can also reply . . . question, and ask the Minis ter to comment on the budget in the pre­ vious years which forced the nurses to leave and change the system and now they . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, order please. Order, please. Order, please. We are now getting closer to debate. The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Mini ster of Health.

He ind icated that in Winnipeg we had more beds for acute care than in other areas, so I would like to ask him whether he could advise us as to the number of beds avai lable in Winnipeg for neurosurgery, and I would ask him to con­ firm that there has been a recent reduction in the num­ ber of beds available for neurosurgery at the Health Science Centre. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I suggest a ques­ tion asking for that specific detailed information would probably be better served by an Order for Return. Would the honourable member care to rephrase his question? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr.

Sp,eaker, I would ask for the approximate number of beds in view of the fact that the Minister was quoting averages with respect to the rest of Canada, and also, I would like to have him confirm that in fact there was a reduction in the number of beds available for neurosurgery at the Health Sci­ ences Centre recently. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I can't confirm that. That was, to my recollection, basically the same ques­ tion that was asked me by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, which I took as notice.

But I just want to make it clear, for the record, that I said there were 5, 700 active treatment beds in Manitoba, which works out to 5.7 per thousand. I didn't say in Winnipeg. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Further to the Min ister of Health, would he confirm that within the high occupancy rates he talks about, there are oc­ cupancy rates of more than 100 percent in some hos­ pitals in view of the fact that they have waiting lists for some surgery, which certainly couldn't be considered elective, such as surgery for brain tumors? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further to the line of questions to the Mi nister of Health and Social Devel­ opment, he indicates that there presently is no bed shortage in relationship to that which exists by way of beds in other provinces. He has also indicated that he is confronted with a plague of long-stay patients. Can the Minis ter advise this Chamber as to the number of present patients in the hospitals in the province of Manitoba that are awaiting placement in personal care institutions? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can give the Hon­ ourable Leader of the Opposition an approximate fig­ ure.

I believe it is 800, approximately 400 in urban Winnipeg and approximately 400 in the remainder of the province. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question then, further to the Minister of Health and Social Development, can he confirm, indeed, that the present situation involving some 800 resident patients in hospitals in this province not placed in personal care homes, is a direct result of the near freeze upon construction of personal care homes in the province of Manitoba over the past three years, and that is the reason that we are faced with a bed shortage at the present time in the province of Manitoba? MR.

SHERMAN: No, Mr. Speaker. Not only can I not confirm it, but I dispute it most strenuously. The waiting list the panelled list, for personal care in Manitoba is lower today than it was when my honourable friends were in government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. 2697

Monday, 21 April, 1980 MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, my question is fot the Honourable Minister of Tourism. Would the Minis ter comment on the fact that a Manitoban phoning to the Tourist and Convention Association asking about fishing lodges in Manitoba, receives brochures from Thunderbird Lodge, Manitoba, Canada's most fly-in fishing lodge, and Elk Island Lodge at God's Lake, all quoting all figures in U.S. funds, and does the Mini ster think that this is appropriate for Manitoba tourists to be receiving such brochures quoted to U.S. funds? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. J.

FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, if I'm not mistaken, the brochure the hon­ ourable member has is one supplied to us by the lodge owner, they supply the brochures to our tourism de­ partment. When we get phone calls asking about dif­ ferent lodges, we try to ask what area they want to go to, try to pin it down as much as possible, what facilities they want, etc., and on that basis, we send out the brochures which are supplied to us by the lodge own­ ers.

Unless she wants us to do the conversion and then send it out, I don't think I can force lodge owners to print their brochures any other way than the way they want to do it. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister se­ riously suggesting that it's not part of his responsibility to encourage the lodge owners to prepare brochures which are attractive to Canadians as well as to people from other places? MR. JOHNSTON: It's a simple equation in business, Mr.

Speaker, that when you're printing brochures and you don't have the money to print many different types or ones with a lot of different figures, one for this group, one for that group, they take the attitude that because their largest market is in United States as far as the lodgers are concerned in manitoba, they supply their brochure with American funding, and it usually is just a little pamphlet inside, because their rates probably change every year. I personally was in Minneapolis where there were something like 15 lodgers, at their own expense, Mr.

Speaker, at the Sportsmen's Show, working very hard to bring tourists to Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister accept the suggestion that funds could be shown in U.S. and Canadian figures? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I can accept the sug­ gestion. I cannot force the lodge owner to print his rates in English, Chinese, Russian, or whatever he chooses. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. GARY FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney-General, the Honourable Government House Leader.

I wonder if he has, as yet, received an application from the Honourable Member for lnkster and his supporters in the House for status as an official party in this House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I believe The Legislative Assembly Act requires four members to be involved in a party before it receives official recognition. I under­ stand the size is growing, but I have not yet received an application. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Elm wood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Mini ster of Tourism concerning the horse racing industry in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, if I could have the . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Mem­ ber for Elmwood has a very valid point. I would hope that members would take their turn and allow the mem­ ber to ask his question relatively undisturbed. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Min ister of Tourism if he can report on whether or not there will be a horse racing season in Manitoba opening on May 2nd, in view of the conflict between himself and the industry in what is a major tourist attraction, which apparently involves some 900 Manitoba jobs. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would hope that rac­ ing starts on May 2nd, and the second part of his ques­ tion, where he says, conflict between myself and the racing association, Mr. Speaker, the government of Manitoba never has negotiated the purses between the track and the horse owners.

The purses are negotiated between the men who own the horses and the man who owns the business. The province has never negotiated them. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, did the Minister have a meeting this morning with representatives of the in­ dustry, and does he have more meetings scheduled this week? MR. JOHNSTON: There was never a meeting sched­ uled for this morning, regardless of what the papers may have been quoted as saying - and I'm sure they did it on the basis of what they were told.

I had a phone call from the President of the Horsemen's Benevolent Association and I informed him that the Manitoba Rac­ ing Commission was the body that he should be speak­ ing to. Apparently th� owner of the track, who received nine percent of the handle of 47 million splits it 50-50 with the horse owners. The province of Manitoba re­ ceives 7.5, at one time it was 10, we dropped it to 7, and we went to 7.5. We return 1. 75 of our amount of the handle to the purses. It would seem rather strange, Mr.

Speaker, that many people are being critical of the government at the pres­ ent time, when we have made a guarantee that they will receive more than last year, although there are less racing days, and yet, Mr. Speaker, there is no criticism of the man who owns the track, who won't budge at all. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, does the Minister feel that purses and percentages have been in line, or kept up to inflation? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, on that basis, I an­ nounced in my press release on Friday, which the 2698

Monday, 21 April, 1980 horsemen had before their meeting, or it was com­ municated to them, that during this week there will be proposals requested from consultants to take a thor­ ough look at the racing ind ustry in the province of Manitoba. We hope to have that appointment made within the next three weeks, and Mr. Speaker, we hope to have their report by the end of August, and at that time the government is willing to take a closer look at it. Certainly, we wouldn't be asking for a commission or proposal or a study if we wouldn't look at it. Mr.

Speaker, I repeat again, the province guarantee exactly the same amount of money as we received last year ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. We all know that we dislike repetition of questions. It's also equally impor­ tant that we don't have repetition of answers. The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: I would like to ask the Minister whether his department is keeping a running assessment of the trends in consumer demand in the province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Eco­ nomic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have been keep­ ing a very close look, through the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, Consumer Price Index, March 1980, the one I have. MR. EVANS: By consumer demand, I was referring, Mr. Speaker, to retail trade, the demand by consumers for goods and services from various retail stores in Manitoba.

Can the Honourable Mi nister confirm, since he has a number of statistics, can he confirm that the rate of consumer spending increase in 1979 was only 7.6 percent, the second lowest in Canada after Prince Edward Island, and lower than the increase experi­ enced in the province of Manitoba, either in the year 1977 or 1978, and further that Winnipeg's rate of in­ crease was the lowest rate of increase of any major city in Canada? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that his question is out of order.

Asking for confirmation of facts that he gives, does not seek information, and I would have to rule his question out of order. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, then I would like to ask this question of the Honourable Minister: When does he expect consumer spending in Manitoba to accel­ erate to the point where it exceeds the rate of inflation, since last year's rate of 7.6 percent means that fewer goods and services were purchased in 1979 in Mani­ toba than in the year 1978? MR. JOHNSTON: Soon, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Resources. Jn view of the increasing danger for forest fires in Manitoba, I wonder if the Minister can indicate what special pro- visions he is directing his department to take to insure the adequate protection of our forests. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souri s-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, the unseasonably warm weather that we are experiencing now is indeed going to create some prob­ lems that would not normally be anticipated at this time of the year.

We have stepped up our surveillance pro­ gram, undertaken surveillance ahead of the time that normally would have been the case. To date we have not had any serious difficulties reported but it would be my intention to discuss with my staff the possibilities of undertaking any special measures that might be re­ quired to prevent the setting of fires. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, that is one of the con­ cerns I wanted to address, given that a number of peo­ ple are continuing to set grass fires which are obviously burning all over Manitoba.

I wonder if the Minister is taking any measures or intends to take any measures immediately to control that situation? MR. RANSOM: Such action is under consideration, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Health. In view of the fact that the Minister has stated that the current waiting list for neurosurgery has no impact on patient lives and in fact is considered normal, can he now provide us with his new definition of elective surgery? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr.

Speaker, but while I'm on my feet I'd like to reply to a question from the Hon­ ourable Member for Rossmere. It was asked of me last week relative to a brain turner patient who reportedly had been refused admission to the Health Sciences Centre and sent home, and I think I was asked again about that earlier this afternoon by the Honourable Member for Transcona. I had asked for an investigation of that situation. I have report on it, Mr. Speaker.

The patient has had two previous admissions to the Health Sciences Centre for brain surgery and the pres­ sure has been on his surgeon to decide whether or not to operate a third time. The newspaper

article sug­ gested that Concordia refused to admit him after being rushed to the hospital by ambulance. In fact, Sir, the patient had a seizure at home more than six weeks ago whereupon he was taken to Concordia by ambulance, admitted and stabilized and is now being prepared for discharge. After the short period of acute care, Con­ cordia has been providing little more than custodial care. The admission date was March 5th. The patient has not yet been discharged. The question at this time is whether or not his surgeon is going to do a third operation.

If so it will have to be done at the Health Sciences Centre, and it will be done at the Health Sci­ ences Centre, but that is a question being discussed between the family and the surgeon, Mr. Speaker. 2699

Monday, 21 April, 1980 MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister confirm that that individual has been on a waiting list for neurosurgery at the Health Sciences Centre for the past six weeks? MR. SHERMAN: Most emphatically not, in the sense that the honourable member means it, Mr. Speaker. His surgeon has not even agreed that a third operation is either necessary or desireable or viable. Now if you want to call that being on a waiting list in the vocabulary of my honourable friend, that's one thing, but that is not being on a waiting list for assigned surgery that doesn't take place.

The doctor has not decided to operate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education took as notice a question from me about four weeks ago having to do with the sale of school properties. I wonder if he now has the answer to the question? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I don't have that information with me. I'll have it here tomorrow for the honourable member. MR.

WALDING: The Mini ster also took as notice a question from me about two weeks ago having to do with the condition of school busses in Winnipeg. Does he now have an answer to that question? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I believe I responded to that particular question a few days ago. I'm not sure whether the honourable member was present at the time or not. MR. WALDING: For clarification, Mr. Speaker, the question had to do with when the Min ister's department became aware that certain school busses had not met their regular inspection. If that was the answer that the Minister has given, I'll look it up in Hansard.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney-General. Can the Attorney-General advise whether or not he would be prepared to use his good offices with the Manitoba Law Society in order to en­ sure that in cases where there has been established damages as a result of proven negligence on a part of a member of the Law Society, that that innocent third party, the client of a member of the Law Society will receive compensation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I believe this question relates to a discussion that took place with respect to a bill to amend the Law Society Act to deal with profes­ sional competence in another private members' bill that was before this Legislature two years ago. I will be pre­ pared to deal with the subject matter of both those matters in Private Members' Hour when this bill comes up, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I again would ask the Attorney-General whether he would use his good of­ fices, he may of misunderstood my question, with the Law Society pertaining to protection of innocent par­ ties, the victims of negligence of a member of the Law Society. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I believe the question relates to the terms of the insurance that the Law So­ ciety has in effect for lawyers and again relates back to a specific incident in which notice apparently was not provided by the lawyer in question to the insurer.

If the Leader of the Opposition has specific concerns with respect to the terms of the insurance policy that protects the public in these matters, I am certainly pre­ pared to review that with the Law Society. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we're still finding some difficulty in communicating. I wish to deal with the gen­ eral subject matter, not with the particular case before us, though we'll deal with that at another time.

Dealing with the general principle, not the particular case, is the Attorney-General prepared to use his good offices to ensure that such situations are not occurring on a substantial basis in the province of Manitoba? MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware that such instances are occurring on any widespread basis, or are occurring, in fact, in any greater number than the specific incident that was discussed during Private Members Hour the other evening. If the Leader of the Opposition has other information, I'd be pleased to re­ view that with the Law Society. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, will the Attorney-Gen­ eral, this is my final question, talk to the Law Society to ascertain whether or not there is a similar problem occurring elsewhere in Manitoba, similar to the situa­ tion which was outlined this past week? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, now that the Leader of the Opposition has asked a specific question that I can given an answer to, my answer is yes, I will. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to dir ect this question to the Minister of Government Services, and I ask the Mini ster whether he has had an opportunity to review his comments that he made in committee last year about the announcement of allow­ ing flood damage claims, in terms of dike protection and the raising and moving of buildings to areas over and beyond the Red River Valley, as he announced last week in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Govern­ ment Services. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I have not had the oppor­ tunity of reviewing my comments of a year ago, but I believe I remember them. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minis ter then con­ firm that he made statements to committee and to myself when I questioned him last year, that in fact, compensation and assistance to the program of the maximum of 75 percent to a maximum of 10,000 was 2700

Monday, 21April, 1980 to be made avai lable to residents on many watersheds and he quoted from an Order-in-Co uncil, which he said was to be made avai lable to members and was not, but he quoted from it, he said, Yes, those areas would receive that assistance and last week in this House, he got up and said, No, the government did not, in fact, have a policy to assist these areas. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I may be stretching the rules of this House.

The assistance program that the hon­ ourable member refers to is in existence, was appli­ cable to persons living in numerous areas in the province that were subject to flooding, that is, assist­ ance of upwards to 75 percent of the maximum of 10,000 for the restoration of damaged homes or farm buildings, etc., that program has been applied to a whole number of areas that were listed in an Order-in­ Council, compensation for which has been paid for during the past year.

What is not available to the areas outside of that Red River region is the specific Flood Reduction Program that provides a similar amount of money, a similar 10 ,000 for the raising, the moving, or the building of ring dikes as a flood preventative pro­ gram and measure; that assistance as yet is not avail­ able to residents other than the Red River Valley. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The hour for question period having expired . . . The Honourable Member for St. George. A matter of privilege? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of priv­ ilege of this House.

The Mini ster of Public Works again indicated to this House that there was no program available with respect to compensation and assistance to residents outside the Red River Valley for the raising of buildings or moving of such, or providing of ring dikes around their properties. Mr. Speaker, I raise this matter of privilege because I went back and I checked Hansard of May 29, 1979, wherein I questioned the Minis ter specifically, and at that time, Mr. Speaker, and I'd like to quote from Han­ sard, page 48 11, of May 29th, where I ask the Mini ster, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister, in his an­ nouncement with respect to compensation for flood damage, to describe how the proposal for assistance on diking around farmsteads is going to be viewed and handled. I believe the announcement was 75 percent to a maximum of 10 ,000 in terms of diking assistance, and I wanted to know whether it will apply to areas where flooding has occurred on, for example, the Fisher River or its tributaries and/or whether that will ... And there was .. . Mr. Chairman: Order, please. Could we have one speaker at a time?

I continued, whether it will apply to areas as I indi cated, on the Fisher River, or other watersheds that happen to flood, and whether it would entail expenditures or assistance where farm­ ers had previously constructed dikes at their own ex­ pense and now would require some, either further work on them, and/or the building of new dikes.

I have sev­ eral constituents who previously were flooded, did do some constructing of dikes at their own expense, now require some further work on them, whether they would fall into this type of application - would fall into the category of the Flood Assistance Program that he has announced, in terms of dik es? Mr. Speaker, his reply, I'd like to quote from Hansard, Mr.

Chairman: The Order-in-Council that was passed - and if the members haven't got copies of that, you know, it's available to them and I will see to it that they have these copies - indicates that, in anticipation of a further special project, and in fact, those were the words used by the federal authorities when they were conferring with provincial authorities about attempting to addr ess.themselves to not simply repairing the cur­ rent damage, but to in fact make moneys available to prevent future damage, whether it's by outright moving of buildings, or raising of buildings, or of ring diking, or providing paths for individual farmsteads.

We have every reason to believe, and I say this in an unpartisan way, that the last federal government gave us the in­ dication that that kind of program would receive high priority and we have every reason to believe that that priority will not have lessened any since the election of a new federal government. But the answer is, to the Honourable Member of St.

George, is that these kind of programs would apply to all of the flood-prone areas that have been designated in the Order-in-Council, which goes considerably beyond, of course, the Red River Valley; it names specifically the river basins, the Icelandic River, the Ochre River, the Fisher River; these river basins are all named in the Order of Council and I will make it a personal point of making sure that the Member for St. George has that list. And that list in itself is not necessarily complete.

Indeed, if there are further ones that should be added to it, they could well be added to it in supplementary amendments to the Order-in-Council. Mr. Speaker, I could go on; there are futher indications that the Minis ter has spoken in two other questions, specifically giving the undertaking that that program was available to the entire province or the watersheds designated in that Order-in- Council.

We now have the government welching, and in effect, the Minis ter rising in the Chamber and indicating that now there is no program, when in fact, he lead me to believe that that assistance was to be available to all the areas desig­ nated in that Order-in-Council. Mr. Speaker, the Order-in-Council, and he read from it, Mr.

Speaker, if it was complete, then the government and the Minis ter should now get up and say that he made a mistake the other day and that program is avail­ able to the rest of the province and not give an indi­ cation a year ago that it was available and now say, sorry folks, we haven't got the assistance to you be­ cause you didn't live in the Red River Valley. My matter of privilege, Mr. Speaker, is this Minister now has completely revolved, made a ring-around-a­ rosey statement and backtracked from the original government proposal, Mr.

Speaker and I ask that he review his statements and make the announcement that he made last spring and provide the assistance that is desired and necessary in other areas of this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Govern­ ment Services. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, just briefly on the same point of privilege. The Honourable Member for St. George refuses to read the Order-in-Council that it re­ fers to. The Order-in-Council refers specifically to a compensation program which was ava ilable to all those areas mentioned.

I've indicated to him on that occasion and I indicate to him today that I'm still hopeful for having that program expanded. The additional pro­ gram, that the authorities in Ottawa still have not 2701

Monday, 21 April, 1980 agreed to, that that additional program of flood re­ duction will be extended to all portions of the province. But let not the Honourable Member for St. George sug­ gest that I have in any way deliberately mislead him or other members of this House. I ask him to read the Order-in-Council that it refers to. It refers to the specific flood damage compensation program not the flood re­ duction program that he then links up with in his actual statement. There are two specific programs.

One program fixes up homes and farm properties after a flood, and that program has been available not just t-0 Red River Valley residents but to the other areas that have been subject to flooding from time to time. The program that he and I both want to see shared in other parts of the province is the flood reduction program that was entered into, for the first time, I might say, Mr. Speaker, even though there had been serious floods in 1976, in 1974, but for the first time, this government, under this adminis tra­ tion is attempting to find a long-term solution to the problem.

We have applied it, with agreement, to the Red River Valley and we are making applications, and have spoken to federal authorities to have that appli­ cation broadened to include all parts of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I have listened to the argument put forward by the Honourable Member for St. George. I have listened to the argument put forward by the Honourable Minister of Government Services.

I would like to refer the honourable members to Page 59 of our Rules, Orders, and Forms of Pro­ ceedings, and I will refer you to the bottom portion of the second paragraph where it says, but a dispute aris­ ing between two members as to allegation of facts does not fulfil the conditions of parliamentary privilege. Therefore, I have to rule the member's point of privilege out of order. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. The Honourable Member for Logan. CO MMITTEE CHANGES MR. WILLIAMS JENKINS: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to make some changes on the Committee on Economic Development. I would like to substitute the Honourable Member for Flin Flon for the Honourable Member for Transcona, and also the Honourable Member for St. George for the Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SPEAKER: Are these changes acceptable? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to indicate a change in committee meetings. The Min isters in­ volved advise me the Committee on Economic Devel­ opment will not be able to meet tomorrow.

So there will be no committee meeting tomorrow and in fact next week, rather than the Committee on Economic Devel­ opment meet, Public Utilities will meet and deal with the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and Man­ itoba Telephone System in that order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. For clarification does that mean next Tuesday Public Utilities . . . ? MR. MERCIER: Next Tuesday and Thursday. No meeting tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: And how about Thursday of this ... ? MR. MERCIER: And no meeting this Thursday. MR. SPEAKER: There is no meeting this Thursday either? The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Then, Mr.

Speaker, may I have the permission of the House to withdraw the request be­ cause since there is no meetings this week there will be no problem. MR. SPEAKER: Is that agreeable? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Health that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House re­ solved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Hon­ ourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Health and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment. CONCURRENT CO MMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -CONSU MER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. We're on Consumer and Cor­ porate Affairs, Page 24, Resolution 34, the Honourable Minister. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr.

Chair­ man, I might say at the outset that I will be distributing copies of the expenditure and staff man years sum­ maries to make it more convenient for the honourable members to follow the changes that have taken place. If those can be distributed now, then my honourable friends will have the copies of them in their possession. Mr. Chairman, a major change in the department es­ timates from the prevlbus year is the addition of En­ vironmental Mana gement to the Consumer and Corporate Affairs Department. This change has dou­ bled the size of the department in regard to staff and budget.

This made it necessary to make other admin­ istrative changes such as the reorganization of the ap­ propriation structure into the new structure before you in these estimates; this new structure group, con­ sumers, related, appropriations and consumer affairs, the regulation of business under corporate affairs and those appropriations concerned with the environment under environmental management. The overall de­ partment increase in estimated expenditure is 5.6 per­ cent over 19 79-80. Most of the department staff complement has remained relatively stable with only minor increases where required due to work load.

There is an overall reduction in staff complement of 10.37 staff man years due to changes in the Rent Re­ view Program. 2702

Monday, 21 April, 1980 There was an increase in appropriation 1. in General Admin istration of 36,900 or 10.3 percent. This included 29,400 for salary adjustments such as general salary increase and reclassifications. 7,500 was added due to increased costs, chiefly 6,000 for the voucher ac­ counting system required due to the addition of the Environmental Management. There was a net decrease of 16 .37 staff man years and 251 ,400 or 17. 8 percent in the estimates of Consumer Affairs appropriation 2., due to the phasing out of Rent Controls.

In the Con­ sumer Services sub-appropriation, workload was up 24 percent in the Consumer's Bureau and up 12 percent in the rentalsmen over last year. An additional officer has been provided for each of these programs and an additional 1/ 2 staff man year clerical support for the rentalsman. Another analyst position has been added to the Program Support Branch which provides on a request basis analysis of price increases, reviews of legislative initiatives in other jurisdictions and input on proposals to change legislation or policy in the de­ partment.

The departmental reference service was ex­ panded somewhat to provide additional service to the Environmental Management Library which is now a part of this department. In rent stabilization the funds pro­ vided reflect the government's intent to change the rent stabilization program. Corporate Affairs has continued to experience moderate increases in workload, prin­ cipally in the Corporations and Business Name Reg­ istration Branch and in the Public Utilities Board.

Appropriation 4., Communications, has increased ex­ penditures by 42,000, due principally to annual incre­ ments, salary adjustments and general cost increases. The Environmental Management Division, Appropria­ tion 5., includes the Clean Environment Commission, Environmental Control, Research and Development, Program Development and Review, and the Environ­ mental Assessment and Review Agency and the Man­ itoba Environmental Council. Responsibility for the environment was transferred to this ministry in Novem­ ber of 1979.

Environmental Management Division has increased its staff complement by four staff man years and its total budget by 404,900.00. The bulk of this increase, 380,300 and all four additional staff are in the Environmental Control Branch. Two of the four staff are for the environmental laboratory for pesticide anal­ ysis and mercury testing. The other two additional po­ sitions are for water supply testing and for stack sampling for air pollution control. More information on these increases can be provided when this appropri­ ation is discussed later, in more detail.

I think these estimates of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and En­ vironment represent a realistic attempt to ensure a continuation of the high level of service that had been provided in the past, and I recommend them to the members for their consideration. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a few remarks to thank the Min ister for making available the staff man years in the new extension of his department.

We'll need a little bit of time to digest them, but bas­ ically what I want to say to the Minis ter is that I'll be dealing with Consumer Affairs and Corporate Affairs, Communications and other members, and in the main the critic role in the opposition for the environment will be taken up by the Member for Churchill, because I don't pretend to be an expert in this field and I don't even pretend to be an expert in . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder if I could attract the at­ tention of the member; it's not coming through very clear. If you could just be a little closer to the mike. Thank you. MR. JENKINS: I'm Sorry, Mr.

Chairman. As I said, I don't even pretend to be an expert in Consumer Affairs, but that's the job that I've been given and I'll try to do it to the best of my ability. I have no further comments at this time, but I'm prepared to deal with the estimates; there maybe other members of my colleagues here that may want to make a few remarks at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee, I think we'll go on to 2.(a)(1) and we do return to 1.(a)(b)(1) , (b)(2) later, so 2.(a)(1)- pass - the Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Just on a point of clarification, Mr. Chairperson, we do return to actually, 1.(

b) at the end of the estimates? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. Right, in 1.(b)(1) and 1.(b)(2). MR. COWAN: I would have a question to you then, through you to the Minister, Mr. Chairperson, if I could.

There's some detailed information that we on this side would appreciate having and I realize that it may take a fair amount of time for the Minis ter to compile it and put it together, but we would like to have it for the discussion on the particular items, and I would then ask if it would be appropriate before continuing on if we can give the Mini ster a short list of that and allow him to work towards that, or his staff to work towards that, as we pursue other parts? MR. JORGENSON: Surely, that's quite satisfactory to me.

If the honourable members want to ask questions that we can refer to later on when we get to that par­ ticular appropriation, I'm quite happy to have you do that now, if you wish. MR. COWAN: Then I would ask from the Mi nister, if I could, if he could supply the committee with docu­ mentation as to all the testing for vinyl chloride levels that was done in air and in soil and in snow and water, if that is the case, since the derailment on March 10th at MacGregor?

I realize that's fairly detailed informa­ tion and would appreciate if we could have it by the time we get to the appropriate area within the Estimates to discuss it. I'd also ask the Minister if he could provide us with a detailed list of environmental accidents for the past year? There is a report that comes out, a general sum­ mary, but that is not the detailed list, so I would ask the Minister if he could do - I believe it's a month-by­ month list, or at least in the past it has been presented to us as a month-by-month list, and I would appreciate having that to discuss during the appropriate

section within the estimates also. I'd also ask the Minister if he can provide us with ap­ propriate documentation, and I'll leave it up to the Min ister, because we don't know exactly what docu­ mentation transpired between the CNR, Dow Chemical and his department and other experts in the fields in regards to their search for information and advice in 2703

Monday, 21 April, 1980 the derailment outside of MacGregor. And having said that, I think those are the main items that we would at this point like to see and like to be able to go over before we discuss them, although, as the Minis ter is aware, as those discussions transpire we may come across other items which we feel are necessary. But I would like to give the Minis ter as much notice as pos­ sible in regard specifically to these items, because I realize that it will take some time to . . . MR.

JORGENSON: I wonder if the honourable mem­ ber could give us a clarification on that third item, with respect to the documentation between CNR and Dow Chemical and my department; just what did he have in mind? MR. COWAN: Basically, I would assume that there were memos, there was perhaps correspondence that went back and forth, or reports that went back and forth at the request of the department or at the request of Emergency Measures Organization or even CNR or Dow; there were a number of activities that were on­ going at the same time and they did need some co­ ordination.

I would imagine that some of that co-or­ dination made its way into writing and that's the type of documentation that I would ask the Minister to pro­ vide us with - that which he believes he can provide us with without betraying any confidences. And I just have to, Mr. Chairperson, correct what may have been an implication from the Member for Logan when he said that I would be taking over the

section of the estimates dealing with the environment, because the Member for Logan did not consider himself to be an expert in the area, did not pretend to be an expert in the area, and thereby inferring that perhaps I was. I just want to set the record straight before I get in very deep, that I don't consider myself to be an expert in the area either, just a very interested and concerned individual who likes to learn. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 35, 2. (1 )(a)-pass - the Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: 2. (a)( 1) . MR. CHAIRMAN: Did I say 2. (1) (a)? 2. (a) (1) , I'm sorry. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Could the Mi nister explain 11 0,- 000, 11 2,000 increase in salaries which appears to be quite substantial, amounting to something in the order of about 16 percent? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mi nister. MR. JORGENSON: The increase is due to an addi­ tional four-and-a-half staff man years, 72,200 required for increased workload and transfer of our environ­ mental management to the department, and 39,400 due to general salary increase and salary adjustments. MR. HANUSCHAK: The additional staff in the Con­ sumer Affairs Branch - what would be their function? What would they be doing? MR.

JORGENSON: I would presume that would be an increased workload. One additional analyst in Program Support, one additional officer in the Consumers' Bu­ reau, one additonal officer and one-half clerical staff man year in the Rentalsman Offices. These staff were required due to a 14 percent increase in the workload over last year and indications are that this trend will continue into 1980-8 1, ... four one staff man weeks in communications. This now provides a full time li­ brarian required due to the transfer of the Environ­ mental Library to this department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR.

JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now we're dealing with the Department of Consumer Affairs.

The question I have to the Minister is during the Throne Speech there was some indi cation that the government was going to be introducing some changes to The Con­ sumer's Act and I would like to ask the Minister at this time, in view of the situation that has developed here in Manitoba and I guess across the country with federal legislation dealing with the content of meat in ham­ burgers, where we are getting a mixture of pork and beef and the federal legislation seems to be - has been set aside in some court cases, is there any con­ sideration on the Minister and his staff, have they been looking into this and perhaps anticipating to bring in legislation during this current session that will rectify this matter, since we find that there is a violation of what the federal code calls for, and my understanding is we have no provincial legislation at this time, and I would like to know whether the Minis ter and his de­ partment have taken heed of this.

MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The difficulty in that particular situation is that the federal Justice Department is still examining the decision of the courts to determine to what extent they do apply on the prov­ incial level, and to what extent it may be necessary to bring about changes in legislation to bring the matter under provincial jurisdiction. At this point they are not even certain that is the case. The situation is still being handled, inspections are con­ tinuing, and if there is felt a need for any action to be taken, it can be referred to the Department of Health under their Inspection Branch.

So we still have that opportunity of applying at least the spirit of the legis­ lation until this matter has been clarified by the Ju stice Department in Ottawa. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Minis ter for that informa­ tion.

Would the Departmgnt of Health, like the Mi nister has stated that under the present federal legislation which we're dealing with, if it was felt that prior to any legislation being introduced provincially, would the De­ partment of Health then be able to lay charges if some­ one was violating what was - because one of the things that I think has been brought to the fore is, with the mixed content of beef and pork, and I guess we all realize that pork has to be cooked much longer and much more thoroughly because of parasitic contents that may be within pork, and would this be the

section under which the Department of Health would come into the picture? MR. JORGENSON: That's the particular

section which is in question. The degree to which the Department of Health could function would depend on the nature of the violation. If it's a violation that clearly comes under a health regulation, then they would be able to take action. If it was a violation that would more properly 2704

Monday, 21April , 1980 come under The Food and Drug Act of the federal de­ partment, then there might be some difficulty in pros­ ecutions, but the inspections will continue nonetheless. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Then I take it from what the Mini ster has answered that really, if charges were to be laid by the Department of Health, it would have to be on a charge of a high bacteria count or something of that nature, not on the meat or not on the meat content, but it would have to be a high bac­ terial count, uncleanly, insanitary conditions.

So we're not getting to the nub of the question which is really, I guess when it all boils down, it should be in Consumer Affairs because hamburger is being sold under a mis­ nomer; because ham burger is supposed to be ground beef. We're getting products on the market now that are a mixture of pork and beef and as long as there was no high bacterial count, then I don't see how the Depart­ ment of Health could really be laying any charges be­ cause of insanitary conditions, as long as there was not a high bacterial count.

But if the cleanliness of the es­ tablishment in the - I don't know just exactly what the bacteria count that is allowable under The Public Health Act, and I realize that this is a ticklish problem because evidently the federal legislation has been set aside in two or three cases where prosecutions have been at­ tempted. As the Minister says, it's something that will have to be dealt with sooner or later.

I hoped that the Mi nister could be a little bit more reassuring to the members of the committee, that somewhere hopefully in this session that we will see some legislation coming in, because I think it's been pointed out by consumer associations that they're putting quite a bit of pressure on to get this thing cleaned up one way or the other. If the federal legislation is not suitable, then perhaps it will have to be provincial.

I think that the Mi nister and his department should be seriously looking at that sit­ uation because it is, in some respects, false advertising, that someone is selling ham burger that is supposedly supposed to be a beef content and then we wind up finding it to be a mixture of pork and beef. MR. JORGENSON: My honourable friend has put his fingre right on a piece of legislation that can deal with the particular question that he has in mind; that's The Combines Investigation Act and misleading advertis­ ing.

If a product is being advertised as being ham burger and it contains other products as well, then prosecu­ tions can take place under that piece of legislation. But to answer my honourable friend's specific question, we certainly are concerned about this particular situ­ ation and our staff are preparing what could be amend­ ments, depending on the outcome of the judicial review in Ottawa. And until we have some clear idea of just precisely where we stand, it's very difficult to frame legislation that will meet that particular situation, but we are concerned about it.

As I say, amendments to The Consumer Protection Act are being drafted for this session and it could well be that if the decision is made by the law officers in Ottawa, in time we can include them in the present set of amendments if they become necessary. MR. JENKINS: Just a question to the Min ister. How soon does he feel that he will be introducing this leg­ islation into the House? MR. JORGENSON: Well, with respect to the . . . MR. JENKINS: No, I mean the ones that were men­ tioned in the Throne Speech and did not . . . MR. JORGENSON: Yes. Well, those amendments are in the final stages of preparation. MR.

JENKINS: Well, I thank the Minister for that in­ formation. We'll look forward to that bit of legislation when it appears in the House. The Mi nister has I am sure, as I have had, many many requests from the Con­ sumers Bureau, from senior citizens dealing with unit price codes. The Minister last year was of an opinion that legislation of this nature was not required because the thing seemed to be working out. But I can assure the Minister that I'm still getting just as many enquiries.

I introduced a Private Members' Bill last year that un­ fortunately died on the Order Paper and I wonder if the Minis ter has had a change of heart since last year, whether he is thinking of introducing legislation this year - and perhaps I'm going to have to wait until he tables it in the House to make sure - but there are a considerable amount of people who feel that when they go into a place of business, a grocery store or whatnot, that prices should be available.

The argument is not against the unit pricing code as used by people but many of our senior citizens have difficulty with prices and they forget what prices are. I'm sure the Minis ter has had the same letters and the same pres­ entations that have been made to me and I feel that these people have a very valid point. Legislation has been brought in in the province of Quebec, and I think about four or five of the American states, dealing with this problem.

No one is saying that these people can't use their system but I think that when I go into a place of business to buy an object, I don't want to be faced with a bunch of stripes or somebody's computer knowl­ edge that I have no knowledge of when I go to the place of business. I might say that this sort of a system was used by railways in North America for car identification. It lasted for about four or five years. But because of damage to the computer identification, it now has been withdrawn. It didn't turn out to be the boon that they thought it would be. The same thing happened with packaging.

It's all very nice and tidy if you've got nice little square packages that don't get bashed around. But a lot of our products that we buy in supermarkets - and in the main that's where the changes of the unit pricing code are coming about - are not nice, neat little packages. We all know what happens to computers when something goes a little bit wrong. They can spew out some very funny answers.

I think it is incumbent upon the government to recognize that many of our senior citizens - and they have been the most concerned - those are the people who are in the worst position because their eye­ sight is failing in many cases, they can't see the print, and I know these places say they put nice print out and whatnot.

I've seen some of the checkout tabs from the stores that have a unit pricing code in and it looks very nice but there are many objects on there that just are not as nice and neat as what they will tell you it works to; because some of them are just listed as groceries - and you get that on practically the ordina ry type of checkout pricing that doesn't include the code system. So I would hope that the Minis ter would have recon- 2705

Monday, 21 April, 1980 sidered the position that he and his government took last year and save me the bother of having to introduce, again this year another Private Member's Bill dealing with this topic. I'll just stop now and if the Minister is prepared to answer, I wait with anticipation. MR. JORGENSON: If my honourable friend wants me to give him a short answer right now, he partially an­ swered his own question when he said he may have to wait until legislation is introduced.

Let me just say to my honourable friend that I have been reviewing this particular amendment, the one that he proposed during the course of the last session. I have a great deal of sympathy for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, probably should have risen on a point of order for the Member for Logan because I was wanting to just make a few comments on the same subject matter that he dealt with before he got going on this other, and that is the meat situation where he was concerned about the consumers.

In regard to a mixture of beef and pork, as I'm given to understand, is the problem that has been created in the courts and so on. And through you, Mr. Chair­ man, as I understand, the Minis ter may be contem­ plating some legislation.

But I should like to make sure that when we're dealing with a subject matter it's im­ portant to know, and I would like to just convey a little bit of information to those who consume both beef and pork - and I'm not sure whether the legislation would just deal with hamburger, because you can buy sau­ sage that has a small amount of beef in it that enhances the quality of the sausage, if it's a pork sausage with a little bit of beef in it. There are a lot of people that like that. So I would hope that would be taken into account, Mr.

Chairman, when the Min ister is contem­ plating legislation on a broad scale of the mixture of beef and pork, as it's sold over the counter. Because . I think, Mr. Chairman, this is a very important bit of information to know. I know people, they specially re­ quest the butcher to put a certain amount of beef in pork when they' re buying pork sausages. I hope that we won't see legislation that's going to bar that, so I'm just making that comment. If the Minister wants to reply that's quite in order. But I just wanted to make that comment. MR. JORGENSON: A short answer, Mr.

Chairman, would simply be that it is not a new area that we'd be embarking on if amendments were introduced. It would be simply to fill the void that was left by the vacating of that particular field by the federal authorities as a result of the decision of the Supreme Court. Now if the judicial review indicates that - and there is some doubt as to whether or not what has been recorded in the papers is actually what the Supreme Court intended. When that review is completed then we'll have a better idea of precisely the meaning of the decision. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr.

Chairman. I have a few questions I want to ask, and suggestions to make to the Mi nister. The first that comes to mind, this being the springtime of the year, of course we see one of the more popular pastimes for young children - flying kites. And in urban areas, it's not at all uncommon to see a kite being entwined in overhead hydro lines. I know in my own neighbourhood, just looking out my kitchen window, there are a couple dangling down from hydro lines.

So my question is, is the Minis ter satisfied that the cords or the lines of the kites which are being sold are non-conductors of electricity, either in dry form or wet? The kite string may fall in a puddle of water and the child continues flying it. So that's my question to the Mini ster, as to the safety of the toy, to assure the public that they are non-conductors of electricity.

And secondly, I would urge the Mini ster - and perhaps it's a bit late in the season now, maybe the announce­ ment should have been made a bit earlier - I would urge the Minis ter to issue a word of warning to parents and children about the dangers of flying kites in rural areas. Accidents happen; in fact, there was one in my riding a few years ago. It was the flying of a kite that eventually led to a fatality.

The kite got caught in hydro wires over top a building, over top a school, and the child climbed up on the rooftop of the school to retrieve the kite and in the process of doing so fell, and fell on hydro wires beneath and was electrocuted. The other suggestion that I would wish to make to the Minister, although I realize that the matter of weights and measures, is one of federal responsibility but I would urge him to take it under advisement.

Well, more than just take it under advisement, but to urge the federal authorities to bring about the appropriate change, and that deals with foodstuffs which are sold by the unit as opposed to by weight or volume. There are many that are sold in that fashion; some fruits are still sold by the unit instead of by weight. Apples gen­ erally are sold by the pound or, I suppose, oranges on the other hand by the dozen, grapefruit by the dozen and so forth.

If the Minis ter wishes, you can go into any supermarket and pick up a dozen oranges from the same batch and weigh them and find that there might be five or six ounces difference in weight per dozen - which at today's prices is quite a significant differ­ ence. So what happens, I suppose, someone along the line gets more value for his money or her money if they happen to pick up larger oranges or grapefruit, but on the other hand someone else is being shortchanged. There are even meats that are sold by the unit; Schnei­ ders put out salami which they sell by the piece.

On one occasion I was in a supermarket and I did take two pieces of salami, put them on the scale and there was about a four or five ounce difference in weight. Well, here again, when you're paying 2.50 or 3 for that stick of salami and that four ounce difference - the lighter one weighed something like 15 ounces and the heavier one was about 19 - so that, too, is quite a significant difference. And if a consumer shopping basket includes a number of items sold in that fashion, it can amount to a difference of several dollars.

The third point that I would like to raise with the Minis ter relates to processed foods and showing the actual con­ tent within that can or within that container. For ex­ ample, I know that with reference to tinned fruits, I think that the sugar content is shown on the label, 25 percent sugar, 20, whatever it may be. Well, that's fine to show the sugar content, but there's nothing on the label to show the water content of the tin. You may buy two tins of pears and one may have three or four halves of pears and the other five, and the balance of the volume 2706

Monday, 21 April, 1980 and weight made up by water. Perhaps, some more precise and meaningful labelling could be devised to indic ate to the consumer whether the 50 tin of pears is, in fact, a better buy than the 55 one, or whatever the difference may be between two or more brands. Now, this is just one example and today, particularly with the increased use of various chemical food pre� servatives, colouring agents and what have you, some of which may be somewhat hazardous to our health, or perhaps if not hazardous to health in general, it may be hazardous to some.

Hence, I would think that the consumer ought to be aware of the exact type of pre­ servative that was added to the processed meat or the tinned vegetable or fruit or whatever it would be, or what chemical was added to give it more attractive colour or whatever other chemicals may have added for whatever purpose the manufacturer may have had in mind. Now some of this type of information is stated on some products but I would suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that not on all.

With reference to two other points, is the Mi nister en­ quiring into the suggestion that was made by people who do some research in the field of the hazards and the dangers of exposing milk to fluorescent light for long periods of time. Most showcases are lit with flu­ orescent lights and apparently the type of package that is being used, namely the plastic package, offers no protection to the rays of fluorescent light and, in fact, offers some undesirable results.

The last point that comes to mind deals with the com­ puterized pricing that we find on the incr ease in su­ permarkets, and I know that the supermarkets are very quick to point out to the consumer that if you examine the showcase carefully you will find the unit price shown there. Well, I would suggest to the Minis ter to go to the dairy

section of any supermarket and you would have one hell of a time finding the price of a particular pound of cheese that you might be interested in buying. Be­ cause here the stuff is all laid out in the cooler and there's one little half-inch strip of names of commod­ ities and the prices in small print and the cheese that you're interested in buying is over at that end of the cooler and the price of that particular cheese is over at this end. And you've got to read through the whole lot to find the price of a particular commodity that you're buying.

I don't think that our retailers of food­ stuffs are unreasonable people; I would suggest that perhaps the Minister use his good office in approaching the food retailers, at least the major food retailers, sug­ gesting to them that in showing the unit prices of the foodstuffs that they sell, that the unit price be as close as possible to the actual food that the price is meant to be the price of and not, you know, five, six, ten feet away. Those are some of the questions and comments that I have that I wish to make to the Minister at this time, Mr. Chairman. MR.

JORGENSON: With respect to the last item, I think I've already dealt with that with respect to item pricing under the intervals of proper code. I might say that I have approached the supermarkets and spoken to them about this particular matter. Whether or not my appeals to them will bear any fruit I have not yet been able to determine. However, I have indicated that I am sympathetic to the needs, particularly as the Mem­ ber for Logan was saying, of elderly citizens who have some difficulty making out prices on these particular commodities. If my honourable friend can . . . MR.

HANUSCHAK: I fall in the same category. MR. JORGENSON: Well, I get there myself. If my hon­ ourable friend will be patient till the legislation amend­ ments to the Consumer Protection Guide comes out, he may then have the answer to his particular question. With respect to the labelling problems that my hon­ ourable friend has mentioned, I'm sure that he realizes that would pretty much fall under federal jurisdiction and it's an interesting topic, and one that perhaps is worthy of some discussion at the federal level.

I will most certainly take advantage of his suggestion to look at this question with respect to kites to find out if we can determine whether or not they are shockproof, whether or not the dangers that he portrays or fears are inherent in the present manufacturing of kites. We'll certainly have a look at that one. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Quite often when I speak, people in replying refer to the fact that I am new to this House and I assure you that I'm painfully aware of the fact that I'm new to the House and have trouble finding my way, especially around the estimates at times. Is it appropriate for me to talk about the Milk Control Board under this? Could the Minister tell me why? MR. JORGENSON: No, the Milk Control Board is MRS. WESTBURY: From the point of view of the con­ sumer's side. MR. JORGENSON: The Milk Control Board comes under the Department of Agriculture. MRS. WESTBURY: I'm concerned, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Mini ster.

I'm aware of the fact that it is under the control of the Minis ter. The Minis ter has made public statements to the effect that he is con­ sidering alternatives to the pricing powers of the Milk Control Board. Consumers are concerned. Is it not ap­ propriate that this matter should be discussed under the estimates of the Minister of Consumer Affairs? I don't understand that. Will you explain to me why these powers overlap a little here? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend has mentioned that she's new to the House.

I'm sure she's not so new that she can't devise enough ingenuity to raise the particular point that she wanted to raise, but I caution her that it comes under the re­ sponsibility of the Department of Agriculture and the Minister of Agriculture. But speaking from a con­ sumer's point of view, I would certainly have no objec­ tion if she wanted to raise that particular matter, as long as it stays within the bounds of the Consumers Branch and does not deal with the Milk Control Board itself, because that I cannot answer for. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was hoping that the Mi nister would be able to tell us that he will be intervening to make sure that something is done - if the Milk Control Board, for instance, is dis­ banded or if it's powers are taken away from it - that the consumer protection provisions of the present leg­ islation can be maintained in some form or another. I 2707

Monday, 21April, 1980 am not wanting to talk about the profits to the producer or anything like that because I certainly have no desire to eliminate the profits of the producers; but I am very concerned about whether that could be replaced with a fluid milk subsidy program or something to alleviate the problems of those people who - particularly the infants and nursing mothers, the pregnant women and the elderly, both men and women - who obviously need quite a bit of milk and they need the whole milk.

At the present time they are having trouble with it as consumers and I'm wondering what the Mini ster is pre­ pared to do to help, either through a .subsidy program or through some sort of pricing board or whatever, to alleviate the problems of these people. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, as I have indicated I don't want to get into the area af the Milk Control Board. That will be discussed later when the estimates of the Department of Agriculture are before this com­ mittee.

All I can say is that I take the position that if the people that she speaks of who require help, and there are those if it is deemed necessary to provide some assistance for them in the purchases of milk, then that should be in my view the responsibility of the public at large rather than a single group of producers. I find it offensive from a sense of justice to think that a group of people, and there are relatively few of them, should be called upon to subsidize a million people in their milk purchases.

If there is to be a program to alleviate those in need, then it must be developed as a separate program designed to assist those in need, and I can go no further than that other than, as a matter of prin­ ciple, that would be the position that I would want to take. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

So that is purely from the consumer's point of view that you are speaking and your answer satisfies me somewhat, but would hope that you realize that the current Cana­ dian Food Guide recommends between 16 and 24 ounces of milk or milk products for children under 11 , and 24 to 32 ounces a day for adolescents and preg­ nant and nursing women. This really is a major item. The price of milk now, I think, is 55 - isn't that awful, I don't even know. I drink skim; I guess I don't fall into any of those categories.

At 55 cents a quart or some­ thing, then it really becomes a major item in the budg­ ets of housewives who are raising children, and I would ask the Minister if he would take this back to his de­ partment and perhaps come out, make some state­ ment. It sounded to me as though the Min ister was talking about a milk subsidy program which certainly would be acceptable to the consumers. As I said I'm not interested in interfering with the profits of the pro­ ducers and that can be left to others.

If I can refer to a couple of other items, I also was going to bring up the matter of unit pricing which is a matter of great concern to people, especially people living in senior citizens' homes and so on. People in my con­ stituency have been having meetings about it and they are vehemently opposed to the unit pricing system. I'm sure the Minister has heard from them, and I am hoping that we will soon have some sort of an announcment. I had a little difficulty in hearing the Minister; I hope he was saying that some time, quite soon, legislation is going to come forward in connection with unit pricing.

Is that what you said, Sir? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, what I did say is that we are proposing amendments to The Consumer Protection Act and if such an amendment was going to be proposed, that's where it would be included. MRS. WESTBURY: Oh, lot's of ifs and buts, okay; too many ifs and buts in there, Mr. Chairman. I'm afraid I'm a little disappointed in that response and so I guess we're all just going to have to keep on about that for a little longer. MR. JORGENSON: I hope my honourable friend will recognize that it is not customary to reveal the contents of legislation before it is introduced in the House.

I am going as far as I possibly can to accommodate my hon­ ourable friend. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you. In response to ques­ tions that I asked the Minis ter around the 31s t of March, between the 31s t of March and the 3rd of April, the Mini ster made a statement to the affect that - and this is in connection with rent increases - that his department has been monitoring rent increases inside and outside of the city, those that have been released from controls, which have have been free from controls since October, 1978. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I just wonder if I could point out to the member, rent stabilization does come under (

b) of this same item. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you; I'll wait for that then. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1) - the Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I missed the Minister's introductory comments. I'm not sure whether he dealt with the reconciliation statement and I notice that there is some 4.5 million transferred from Natural Resources. I wonder if the Minister could ex­ plain what that consists of. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mi nister.

I think while we're waiting, if we'd all be more conscious of getting the mike a little closer to us because it's just like the complaint of the Member for Fort Rouge, in­ cluding the Mi nister; often we're talking away from the mike and it may get recorded but the rest of the com­ mittee doesn't always hear that question or answer clearly, so if we'd be a little more conscious of it, it would be better for all. MR.

JORGENSON: My honourable friend is probably aware that the Environmental Branch of the Depart­ ment of Natural Resources was transferred to the De­ partment of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and that reconciliation that he mentions consists of that transfer. MR. WALDING: I see. Mr. Chairman, I know it's not very long since the end of the year but I'd like to ask the Mi nister whether he expects to have spent the 8.5 million that was approved in the estimates last year for the department. MR.

JORGENSON: I am advised that the final figures will not be available for a couple of weeks yet but we are expecting that will be fairly close to that figure. 2708

Monday, 21 April, 1980 MR. WALDING: I would further like to ask the Mi nister whether there were any special warrants written for this department last year, and if so, how many and for how much. MR. JORGENSON: I couldn't provide that information right now. I'll take that question as notice and see if I can provide it a little later. MR. WALDING: Can the Minister confirm to the com­ mittee that there were in fact one or more special war­ rants during the year. MR.

JORGENSON: I can only go by memory and it just seems to me that there was one at least, perhaps two, but we'll have that information for my honourable friend tonight. MR. WALDING: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, I'll take your advice and get as close as I can to this mike. The Member for Burrows raised an interesting topic and I don't know if I just heard the Minister right or not, and I think that was doing with the testing of products that are on the market.

And if I understood correctly, the Mini ster and his department do not do any testing of products that are sold on the market. And especially I am thinking of toys that are sold on the market; that was a federal responsibility or just who carries out the testing of toys to make sure that they are safe for the consuming public? MR. JORGENSON: That is a federal responsibility, Mr. Chairman. MR. JENKINS: Yes, I can understand that being that way.

But supposing a product was made and produced in Manitoba and not for sale anywhere else; there could be a local toy that was made and sold just in the area of Manitoba, not outside the province in any way shape or form. Where would the testing then be done? Would it be done then still by the federal government, or would it ... ? MR. JORGENSON: Yes, it still could be identified under The Hazardous Products Act and tested under that Act. MR.

JENKINS: And if such a product came on the market, would the Min ister's department notify Ottawa that such and such a product was on the market here in Manitoba and not being sold elsewhere and ask for the testing to be done? What would be the procedure in a case such as that? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, if we learned of it first and felt there was a need to have it tested, then yes, we would notify the federal authorities. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1) - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I notice that Consumer Affairs covers such legislation as The Consumer Pro­ tection Act, Landlord and Tenant Act, and The Personal Investigations Act, and perhaps others. I am aware that The Personal Investigations Act is the act that governs extenders of credit the right to check into personal credit ratings, etc.

The question I had to the Minister was, on those forms that where a consumer would ap­ ply for such credit or would authorize such checks to take place, has the Minister reviewed such forms or the department to see whether people's social insur ance numbers are being requested for identification in such cases? MR. JORGENSON: We haven't conducted such a sur­ vey with respect to this particular piece of legislation. The federal government is conducting a survey to de­ termine just in what areas that social insurance num­ bers are being used.

Now, with respect to The Pesonal Investigations Act, as my honourable friend is probably aware, there was a new act that had been drafted and submitted to the House a couple of years ago, was resubmitted again last year, and will be, hopefully, re­ submitted again this year, containing a number of what I consider to be some desirable amendments in order to remove some of the anomalies that currently exist in the present act. That bill will be brought forward shortly. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, the Minis ter correctly points out that the social insurance system and the numbering that goes with it is a federal matter and I understand when it was brought in it was intended to be used only for income tax and I think perhaps pensions was the other use of it. But because it's a system of identification, it's becoming used by a num­ ber of private agencies as a matter of identification and it's something that's crept in that certainly wasn't in­ tended originally. And it's felt by many people to be an abuse at the original system.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he would agree that it is an abuse of a system that was set up to deal with only very specific areas in the beginning and what his policy is, or the policy of the government, in the use of social insurance numbers by private institutions, lending agencies, and credit granting agencies, and that sort of thing. MR.

JORGENSON: As my honourable friend perhaps is aware, there are certain occasions where the gov­ ernment itself, both provincial and federal, require the use of social insurance numbers, and I think that what is necessary is a total evaluation of the whole question of the use of social insurance numbers, both on the part of the provincial governments as well as the federal governments, before an examination of the use by pri­ vate industry takes place.

Once we have clarified our positions then it's much easier to keep a handle on the use of those insurance numbers, although I might add that when they were first introduced in the House of Commons, one parliamentarian predicted what would happen and what he did predict has happened. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure quite what the reference is that the Min ister is making comments on and I don't recall when the matter was before par­ liament. I guess it was several years ago and maybe the Mini ster was a little closer involved with it at that time.

Is the Minis ter telling me that provincial govern­ ments, and in particular this provincial government, does ask for social insurance numbers in certain cases. If so, what are they for and does he not feel that this is contrary to the original legislation, or at least the intent of the original legislation? 2709

Monday, 21 April, 1980 MR. JORGENSON: We use it in one instance - the personal property security registration. MR. WALDING: Is that the only instance that it's re­ quired, not for example for applications for employ­ ment or under any other circumstances? MR. JORGENSON: As far as we know, it's the only instance. We would like to have a further look to see how far it has expanded. I'm advised, but it must be a fairly obvious departure from that, payrolls in the provincial government require the social insurance number in order to process it. · MR. WALDING: Let me repeat the second part of the question, Mr.

Chairman, and that's whether the Min­ ister believes that this is an abuse of the original leg­ islation or an abuse of the intent of the original legislation. MR. JORGENSON: I prefer not to comment on that because I believe that when the matter was first intro­ duced I had some comments to make on it at that time, and there is a wide difference between what one person may consider to be an appropriate use and what an­ other one may not.

I would like to see a total and com­ plete examination of the whole question of the use of social insurance numbers to determine to what extent it has spread, to determine if there are areas in which they are necessary, and if there are areas in which the practice can be stopped. Before that overall analysis is done, I would rather not state a position on it. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I sense the Mi nister shares my concern with the whole matter and that is that from a bureaucratic point of view it's very useful and very convenient and admin istratively neat to have a number against every individual in the state so that there can be no mistaken identity and everyone can be accounted for and counted and put into the appro­ priate slots.

But the danger is that there are a great number of, particularly government departments and institutions, that have all sorts of lists of people on their computers listed for various reasons and that it's pos­ sible to cross-reference these data banks by means of social insurance numbers, so that the ultimate in the system is to merely feed in one particular social insur­ ance number into a computer that will access a number of other computers and give a complete background on any individual from all sorts of areas, from a health point of view, law and order, and immigration, court records, a whole range of things.

This I see is an abuse that's been slowly creeping in. I have been told by peo­ ple who are familiar with computers and what they can do that this insiduous movement has been going on and is far more advanced than a lot of people are in­ clined to believe.

It comes down to access to various data banks that are held, particularly by the .federal government in Ottawa, that there are certain people or certain institutions, certain departments - I'm thinking possibly of RCMP or income tax whose own computer would have access to various other data banks held by the federal government to give them this sort of background. Perhaps what is even more fright­ ening is that there are private corporations which them­ selves have immense data banks on individuals.

I am told that there are certain credit checking corporations in the States whose data banks include millions and millions and millions of people, reaching right up into Canada. It is possible for someone down there with access to one of their particular data banks to get im­ mense information about Canadians in another coun­ try. I don't know whether the Minister is in a position to comment on this or to verify it at all, but it's some­ thing that certainly needs looking into and some action taken to prevent 1984 from being upon us even before 1984. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know what comment I can make to the observation of my hon­ ourable friend, other than to say that we know that what he has just said about personal investigation being available. Many parts of the country are - it's true, we are only keenly aware of that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member tor Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I wanted the Minister if he could provide the committee with a list of the number of inspections that were done by his department in the past year, and under what general areas.

I'm not talking about a specific date in a specific location, but if he could provide a general classification of inspections that . . . MR. JORGENSON: I wonder if my honourable friend could tell me just what kind of inspections that he has in mind. MR. COWAN: Would I be correct in assuming - per­ haps I should begin that way, Mr. Chairperson - that this department does make reports as to inspections? MR. JORGENSON: We respond to complaints in sev­ eral ways. In many cases, the complaints simply are calls seeking information as to how to best deal with a particular situation.

In other cases, they seek advice as to how to best correct a situation. In many cases, the callers themselves prefer to deal with their own problem, are just simply looking for the kind of pro­ tection that they have in the way of legislation and the people that they can go to if they want further help. When it reaches the stage where an individual phones a department asking him to intervene and asking them to act on their behalf in a particular situation, yes, then we certainly do that, and there is a fairly complete re­ cord of that kind of activity that I can provide for my honourable friend. MR.

COWAN: That is indeed what I would appreciate, just some overview of the activities of the department and the areas in which the department has been most active. So anticipating that in the near future, I'd move on to another subject which has been discussed in some detail.I'd like to ask the Minis ter a couple of ques­ tions further to his previous comments, and that is in regard to computer pricing, unit pricing codes, a phen­ omema that is becoming increasingly popular in other jurisdictions, and I understand which is being tried on an experimental basis in Manitoba itself.

So I would ask the Mi nister if he has knowledge of where computer pricing is now in effect, in which stores in the province of Manitoba, and what efforts his department is taking in regard to monitoring the implementation of com­ puter pricing, unit pricing codes in other stores throughout the province. In other words, can he give 2710

Monday, 21 April, 1980 us a general overview of where the status of that par­ ticular style of merchandising and retailing is at in Man­ itoba presently. MR. JORGENSON: To the best of my knowlege there are about three stores that are using the universal prod­ uct code at the present time. One, in the west end, a Loblaw's store out near the Perimeter on Grant; one, on Pembina Highway, a smaller store, and I believe the other one was out in the Kildonan area. -(I nterjec­ tion)- No, not Henderson Highway, out in one of the bigger shopping centres out . . . no, off McPhillips or some place - Garden City.

I believe it's Garden City Shopping Centre. I could be wrong on that last one, I am not sure, but I know there's three in the province. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, perhaps the Minis ter could, over the break or within the next day or so, just check back. We have the name of one retail outlet, that's Loblaw's. We would also like the name of the one on Pembina Highway and the one in Garden City if possible. I would ask the Minis ter what efforts his department is taking in regards to monitoring the use in these particular stores and also the introduction of this system into other retail outlets. MR.

JORGENSON: With respect to monitoring, I'm not too sure that our department is doing any particular monitoring. I do know that the Consumers Association have done a considerable amount of work in this field and they bring the results of their testing and their anal­ ysis and their observations to us. So through the Con­ sumers Association we have had a fairly up-to-date account of what is transpiring across the country and they have, in my view, been doing a fairly commendable job of keeping in touch with that particular situation. MR. COWAN: Mr.

Chairperson, do those reports from the Association come to the Minis ter by way of written report, that perhaps he could share with the committee? MR. JORGENSON: They were brought to me as part of a delegation. I'll have to look over and check with them. I can think of no good reason that I can't make them available. They're certainly not secret in any way, because they are in the hands of the Consumers As­ sociation and I presume they are using them. MR. COWAN: Mr.

Chairperson, I understand that the Mi nister of course would have to check with the As­ sociation first, although I would not anticipate any ob­ jection on their part to the widest possible distribution of such reports and would hope that we could have them before us.

Because this is a subject of growing concern among, not only the senior citizens, and they have some very specific reasons for being concerned about this particular system of pricing, but also among the general population, as well as the unions, who rep­ resent workers in the retailing industry who are of the opinion that this may have an extremely detrimental and tremendous impact, negative impact upon their employment opportunities for their membership.

And of course they have that vested interest which we all clearly recognize as a vested interest that I think we must aware of and we must apply ourselves to dealing with their concerns also. I would ask the Minis ter in his recollection, has the Consumers Association come forward endorsing the system, or have they come forward with a limited en­ dorsement, or have they come forward with negative feelings towards this particular system? MR. JORGENSON: The Consumers Association cer­ tainly do not object to the use of the universal product code. Their only recommendation is that item pricing continue.

That's the only recommendation they have made to me. I might add I have been advised that there is a study such as the one outlined by my honourable friend with respect to the use of the universal product code being undertaken in the province of Ontario and in the province of Quebec, and they have agreed to make their findings avai lable to us, so when those stud­ ies are completed we should have them in our hands. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, further to that, I would ask the Minister if there is any tentative date that has been announced or reported as to when we can expect those studies. MR.

JORGENSON: I am advised that late 1980 would be about the expectant date. MR. COWAN: Mr.

Chairperson, by item pricing, which the Minis ter mentioned previously, I would assume that he means that the Consumers Association is not op­ posed to the concept of feeding information into a com­ puter via the markings that we all are starting to see as standardized on the different items, but that they do wish to see a unit price remain on each item on the shelves so that a person who is doing shopping will know that a particular price for that item is such and that they can therefore budget a little bit better as they pass through the stores.

And we all know that in these times of increasing food costs and increasing inflation, that becomes more and more necessary, that people do understand fully how much their items are going to come to, because it is now possible to come in with a limited amount of money and not be able to purchase all which one would anticipate purchasing. We do look forward to seeing what manifestations the Mi nister's sympathy takes place in regard to this par­ ticular area. It is one of some concern, as I mentioned previous.

The Minis ter indicated earlier that the reports in the media in regard to the ham burger content and the pork content of materials being sold as pure ham­ burger, were not, or may not - I don't want to put words in the Minister's mouth - may not have been exactly what the court had intended, and I would ask the Minis ter if he could clarify that a bit more, if he could supply us with the

interpretation that the court laid upon this case as presented to him so that we in our own minds can have a clearer knowledge of exactly where this case sits at this time. MR. JORGENSON: The member asked for the very point that the Department of Justice in Ottawa are attempting to clarify. They are not certain just precisely what is the correct

interpretation of their decision and how far it would affect consumer legislation, how far it would affect the provinces, and there is an effort to try and arrive at that particular conclusion that the ju­ dicial committee are conducting this study at the pres­ ent time. I think my honourable friend is aware of the origin of the original case that went before the courts. It was a very very narrow one as to whether or not a private company was able to use a particular desig- 2711

Monday, 21April, 1980 nation of a product. From that court case, has flown all sorts of ramifications that I don't think were intended in the first place, so I'm going to have to wait until that decision is made, until the judicial people in Ottawa have decided just to what extent the decision affects various departments and parti cularly provincial governments. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, the Minister indicates that it was a case of narrow parameters that was brought before the Supreme Court, and it seems to have been used as a springboard for widening the en­ tire controversy in the media.

I would ask the Mini ster then, as those media reports have made it to Manitoba, where we are left as a province in regard to what hap­ pens now. In other words, a consumer has a complaint or the department is informed of a complaint regarding pork content in hamburger, the department makes its investigation, I would assume. I would ask where we go from there at the present time. The Mini ster indi­ cated earlier that the Department of Health perhaps could become involved.

I would ask in what way the Department of Health would be called in with regard to dealing with this problem of pork content in what is classified to be hamburger. MR.

JORGENSON: As my honourable friend is no doubt aware, there are areas in which there is over­ lapping jurisdiction and in those areas where the prov­ incial Health Department covers essentially the same kind of an area, then as a result of the inspections, which incidentally are continuing by the federal people, and as a result of an investigation that reveals that there are irregularities, the matter can be turned over to the Department of Health and dealt with under their regulations, which are quite broad.

In other areas, if the health regulations can't cover them, then The Com­ bines Investigation Act can cover other areas, so there are ways of filling in the gaps until such time as we get that clarification. There isn't a complete void at the present time. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, I would ask the Min­ ister how widespread this problem is in Manitoba. In other words, the media reports that we have got usually centre around other jurisdictions and not Manitoba.

I remember last summer, I believe it was last summer that the Minister and I exchanged a flurry of corre­ spondence in regard to testing as a result of a query that was put to me by a constituent in Gillam and we went over this item and that's where we discussed the overlapping jurisdiction problem that is experienced from time to time, but in this particular instance looks like it might be a salvation rather than a problem be­ cause of the Supreme Court ruling, and we'll have to wait to see if that is the case or not.

But the fact is, we don't really know the specifics of how widespread this problem is in our own province. Has the Mi nister any knowledge of this sort of problem being present now in shops, in retail stores, in Manitoba? MR. JORGENSON: I am advised that there are only two instances that we know of that charges were laid and they have been stayed as a result of the Supreme Court decision.

But I might also say that from time to time during the course of the routine inspections, these matters are brought to the attention of the people who deal in these products, and whether my honourable friend wanted to accept this or not, a good many of them are more fearful of public exposure on misde­ meanours than they are of being brought before the courts. It's not difficult to draw to their attention and have them accept the recommendations as to how to improve their method of handling products, and very frequently that does take place. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Inasmuch as it's about a half-a-min­ ute before the hour of 4:30, I am leaving the Chair for Private Members' Hour and will return at 8:00 p.m. Committee rise. SUPPLY -HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This com­ mittee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to page 59 of the Main Estimates, Department of Health. Resolution No. 76, Clause 2, Item (

c) Institutional Mental Health Services, Item

(1) Salaries-pa ss. The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairperson, before we broke up on Friday I believe the Minister was going to in fact explain more fully the reason for the cutbacks, the de facto cutbacks in spending for Institutional Mental Health Services and explain more fully why these cut­ backs are taking place at a time when the in-patient population of these institutions is increasing. Could the Minister give us an explanation there?

He indicated that I think the actual figures for inpatients was 39 1 inpatients, say, for Selkirk, even though the annual report of the department indicated that the number of inpatients was something in the order of 354. That would mean then that increase is something in the order of 12 percent in terms of population of patients, but the increase in funding is 1.3 percent, or if you take into account inflation it's a decrease in fund­ ing of about 8 1/2 or 9 percent.

So, could the Mi nister explain that contradiction in funding, given the fact that the population of these institutions for mental health services is increasing? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: I refer again to the remarks that I made on Friday in respect to this particular item and the questions raised by the Honourable Member for Transcona.

If he lool<s at Institutional Mental Health Services as a pace, as a category, he will note, and I recognize, Sir, that we're on 76 (c)(1) and we haven't come to (2), (3) and (4) yet, but they are all part of 76 (c), and if he looks at (2), (3) and (4), Other Expenditures, Professional Training and External Agencies, and par­ ticularly at External Agencies, he will detect a signifi­ cant increase in spending under the appropriation for Institutional Mental Health Services.

The one area, as we discussed on Friday, where the print in front of us reflects a status quo, in fact, in day even a slight re­ duction from 17 .976 million last year to 17 .882 million being requested this year is in salaries and that is be­ cause of an overprovision in the salary budget last year. The decrease that shows in our appropriation this year is due to a reduced amount requested for shift pre­ miums offset by annual increments and its overtime considerations and other factors of that kind that have affected that salary provision that was made in 1979- 2712

Monday, 21 April, 1980 80 which was high in terms of just straight moneys designated as salary. So that adjustment has been made and it allows for the slightly reduced appropri­ ation under the salary designation this year, but it does not reflect any kind of a reduction in terms of the op­ erations of our institutional mental health services, and there has been no cutback of any kind. In fact, the staff has been increased in the Institutional Mental Health Services field by three SMYs from 1,089 to 1,092.

There was a co-ordinator of volunteers added at Brandon; an independent group living worker added at Brandon and an independent group living worker added at Sel­ kirk, so that the total complement of SMYs is up, as I say, by three. The vacancy rate is very low; in fact, if you compare the situation to what it was in the two mental health centres when we came into office in Oc­ tober 1977, the vacancy rate at the moment is almost non-existent in those two institutions and at that point in time it was fairly substantial.

In 1977-78, at year-end, there were 38 vacancies in Brandon; at the present time there are nine. In 1977-78, at year-end, there were 37 vacancies at Selkirk; at the present time there are eight. So that we're looking at a combination of 17 vacancies now compared to 75 vacancies when we assumed office. In fact, Sir, the staffing complement has been maintained at what my officials, advisors and the adminis trators at the two institutions tell me is an adequate level, a satisfactory level, and was as I say increased by three for this year.

Now, I'm not suggesting that there aren't going to be situations, times, periods when additional staff is nec­ essary, and we have a standing provision in executive council that exists between my office through my As­ sistant Deputy Mini ster, Dr. Roy Tavener, and the chief executive officers of the two mental hospitals com­ bined, that if there is pressure and urgency need for additional staffing in those institutions that those con­ siderations and neweds are to be made known to the Assistant Deputy Mi nister, be made known to me and that every effort will be made to act upon them.

I'm sure I would have the support of my colleagues because it's been discussed at executive council level. At the present time though, Sir, there is anything but a cut­ back; the overall appropriation is up; the salaries pro­ vision last year was too high, it was unnecessary because of other considerations in the area of wages, such as shift premiums and increments, and the total SMY complement is up by three for the two institutions.

I can't emphasize too strongly that I want to reassure my honourable friend that institutional mental health services are continuing to receive intensive attention from me and from my department. There is a popu­ lation increase, and I referred to that on Friday, an inpatient population increase, in both Brandon and Selkirk. It's not very significant in Brandon, but it's fairly significant in Selkirk but as I pointed out that is due to an increase in the number of forensic cases.

There is also a substantial increase in the outpatient load at Brandon; Selkirk outpatient population has risen sub­ stantially compared to 1976 and 1977, but it's down from 1978. Brandon has been increasing in the last several years in terms of outpatients and has increased again this past year. The outpatient total for Brandon in December of 1978 was 1,443 by comparison for December, 1979, it's 1,488.

There is continuing pressure placed on our staffs at those two insitutions and on the community health workers who work from those institutions to meet that increasing outpopulation need and that outpopulation function, and we are by no means minimi zing our at­ tention outpatient services as against inpatient. We are continuing to try to keep people out of the institutions and to meet their needs in the community and maintain them in the community.

I noted on Friday, as a result of a question raised by the Honourable Member for Transcona, there was sub­ sequently some media reporting that focused on the complaints, criticism, raised by a university professor last Friday relative to the two mental hospitals and his charge that they were becoming dumping grounds for the elderly. I think I dealt with that criticism, that charge, on Friday. My officials tell me that is absolutely not true; they are not dumping grounds for the elderly, that the geriatric caseload, patient-load, has not increased.

The reasons for the inpatient increase have been, as I said, because of an incr ease in forensic cases, but there is no evidence that geriatric cases are being off-loaded into or dumped into the mental hospitals. I reject the criticisms made by that particular spokesman, who, I believe, was a professor of psychiatry or psychology at the University of Manitoba. His charges are wild in the extreme. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, I want to talk on this item about something which I raised with the Honourable Attorney-General last week. Mr. Chairman, it was during the Question Period and it was as a result of a letter which appeared under the signature of the Public Trustee of this prov­ ince and it was with respect to an

article that had been written by one, Dr. Gifford Jones, syndicated medical columnist, I believe, in one of the newspapers. The good doctor had, in the course of his dissertation, in­ dicated that he personally supported sterilization op­ erative procedures being performed upon mentally incompetent or retarded individuals who were within their reproductive years. In the course of his

article he encouraged physicians and guardians, most notably parents of such individuals, to have recourse to those sorts of operative procedures in order to deal with the problems that burgeoning or emergent sexuality pre­ sented in this regard. Now, the Public Trustee of the province indicated that he personally took strong exception to this practice. He indicated in his letter and in a subsequent telephone conversation with myself that he personally would not authorize such an operation in cases falling within his jurisdiction, that is to say, Mr.

Chairman, cases where the Public Trustee of the province has assumed re­ sponsibility as committee for the estate of the mental incompetent. But, Mr. Chairman, in the course of our telephone con­ versation and in reading the Public Trustee's letter to the editor in response to Dr. Gifford Jones, it occurred to me and it is the case that there is grave reason to have concern for the rights of certain retarded persons who apparently legally fall within the . . . .

These are persons who have never been brought before the courts and whose guardianship has never been legally vested either in the Public Trustee or any other individual. Mr. Chairman, this is an important problem because I am advised and I took pains to make a few telephone 2713

Monday, 21 April, 1980 conversations, I am advised by physicians practicing in the city, that such operations, sterilization opera­ tions, do indeed take place from time to time within the hospitals of our province. And I am further advised, Mr. Chairman, that such operations apparently take place without judicial sanction. These are cases where par­ ents often on the advice of their physician, have a re­ tarded child panelled for sterilization procedures and do not choose to apply to the courts in order to obtain judicial sanction for such an operative procedure.

Now this is a rather technical area and it's a rather hazy area, Mr. Chairman. I have done some research - the Public Trustee was kind enough to provide me with some case law from other jurisdictions - and it ap­ pears that in Manitoba we are operating within a juris­ dictional vacuum in this sort of area. The operative sections of The Mental Health Act of this province are relatively unexplicit with respect to this matter. It is very clear that a physician who wishes to perform such an operation on a ward of the Public Trustee must gain the Public Tr