.1 ',. I ;, 1 I i' I Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER r Number 4

November 26, 1975, Tape 73, Pagp 1 -- aph The House met at 3:00 n.m. Hr. Speaker in tht> Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. the Premier. HON. F.D.MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I ri~e today to move that this hon. House record sincere congratulations on the occasion of the installation of Archbishop Robert Loder Seaborn as Metropolitan of the Eccleslast1cnl Province of Canada.

I think Bishop Seaborn since he came to Newfoundland and as ~e came to know him, has distinguished himself not only in his own faith but al~>o as a distinr,uished Canadian and a person who any who have met him T think respect to a degree that is a bit unusual. Archbishop Seaborn is a man whom T have come to know personally.

His record is one as n family man and one of education through his own formal education and through honourary degrees at two universities, practicing in his faith in Quebec, Ontario and in this Province, a Chaplain in the Canadian Army who was, as I understand it, the first Chaplain to land on the beaches of Normandy with the Canadian Army during D-Day, a man who is reRpected, not just in his capacity as a churchman but certainly in his position as Chanlain with the army people who served with him.

And I happen to know when Father Farrell was here last year and ~e had an opportunity to get together Just how high that respect was held for Archbishop Seaborn. He was awarded the Croix de Guerre. As I say, he preached and practiced his nrofession in many provinces in Canada. He was made Bishop of Newfoundland in JOflS. He is sti.ll a member of the Legion and in October of this year at a meeting of the Provincial House of Bishops held at Halifax, Archbishop Seaborn ~as elected to the position of Metropolitan.

On November 16, 1975, he was installed as Metropolitan in which capacity he will give leadership and support and will serve in the pastoral :role for priests. Jte will be responsible for the consecration of bishops in the rer,ion and will preside over the Provincial Synod and General Council. His position in the church is second only to the Primate, Archbishop Scott of Toronto. Throu~hout his distinguished career Metropolitan, Archbishop .. 178

November 26, 1975, Tape 73, Page 2 -- apb Senhorn has shown himself to be a man of exemplary character and integrity, a man who has devoted his life to the service of his people and. I suppose, our people, his church and his country and a man who stands out as a leader among leaders and a man among men. We in Newfoundland are very proud that Archbishop Seaborn- is located here in St. John's in our Province at this time of great honour to his career and honour to us as a Province. As Premier of the Province I offer my congratulations to the Archbishop and know all members of the House join me in an exoression of tribute to him as an outstanding man and an outstanding citizen. . . 179

Novemher 2ti, 1.975 Tape 74 PK - 1 The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~~~N._E~ M~. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I might say a vord or t'WO in support of the resolution moved hy the Premier,and in seconding it, may I first of all say the Premier used a happy phrase; he referred to Archbishop Seaborn as being a family man. May I on behalf of us all congratulate the Premier on the addition to his family and on behalf of, I kno1o1 every member of the House wish him and Mrs. Moores, and as vet I understand unnamed son, much joy and happiness on it. t am very happy.

And I have been asked to say as well that we hope that the restraint progranme that so significantly affected the receptions which Your Honour tendered and which the Minister of Finance did not tender does not reflect in a second class of cigar for the members of the House. Hr. Speaker, there have been many notable events in the long history of the Anglican Diocese of Newfoundland~ a long history which is shortly to come to a close. For 136 years, Sir, I am told it has been the focal point of the religious life, the spiritual life and the social life of a very large segment of our population.

That Oiocese, Sir, has been led by some outstanding men. The first of them, Sir, was the Right Reverend Aubery Spencer after whom,of course, Bishop Spencer College was named. In 1843 Bishop Spencer retired as bishop of Newfoundland and retired to Jamaica, and in giving, I suppose, his final charge he gave some of the qualities which he deemed necessary in his successor~and I think they are of interest to it.

Bishop Spencer wrote that the bishop of Newfoundland- he later became the Lord Bishop, Bishop Spencer was merely the bishop of Newfoundland- that 11 the bishop of Newfoundland must have the strength of constitution to support him under a climate as rigorous as that of Iceland. a stomach insensible to the attacks of seasickness, pedestrian powers beyond those of an Irish goasoon, and an ability to rest occasionally on the bed of a fisherrr.an or the hard boards of a workman's tilt.u Seven bishops have followed Bishop Spencer in the See and the Chair.

Not the least among them is the man that the House honours today, the Most Reverend Robert Loder Seabor~ ,the eighth Bishop 180

November 26~ 1975 Tape 74 PK- 2 of the Diocese of Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, Archbishop Seabor~ as the Premier has said, had a distinguished career even before he came to Newfoundland, Since then, Sir, he has attained even greater heights that reflect much credit not only on him and the church in this Province but on all of the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. l was particularly pleased that the Premier mentioned that Archbishop Seaborn was among the first of the Canadian troops or the first of the Canadians to land in Normandy on D-Day in 1944.

There is a picture of the Bishop, looking remarkably unchanged considering that thirty years have passed,in a book called Six War Years , a picture of Bishop Seaborn performing his cl~plain's function taken at D-Day, taken on the beach in France. Sir, Bishop Seaborn is the first Archbishop of Newfoundland, the first Anglican churchman in this Province to take that rank. He is also, as the Premier has said, the second highest ranking Anglican in the entire nation subject only in the ecclesiastical disciplines to the !rimate of Canada, Primate Scott. This is a significant ti~.

Sir, in the history of the Anglican community in this Province, because in addition to the historic event of the Archbishop being elevated, the Diocese, of course, is about to be divided into three parta,each presided over by its own bishop. I understand that shortly, although nothing has been put on the Order Paper yet, legislation will be brought into the House to ask ou:::: approval for the restructuring in a legal sense of the three dioceses. T-hey will be Eastern Newfoundland and Labrador, Cen~ral Newfoundland and Western Newfoundland. I have no doubt that it will receive unanimous support.

I think it is particularly appropriate, Sir, the Premier moves this motion today, because on Saturday coming1 the 29th.,a special synod of the Central Newfoundland Diocese will take place in Gander for the purpose of electing the third bishop, the new bishop for the Central Newfoundland Diocese. Sir, Archbishop Seaborn will be Archbishop of Newfoundland,or Lord Archbishop of Newfoundland for only a few brief weeks, He will then become the Archbishop of Eastern Newfoundland and Labrador. But, Sir, 181

Novemher 20, 1975 Tape 74 PK - 3 every person in this Province will retain intense pride, the Anglican community in particular, of course, but I think every Newfoundlander no matter what his religious affiliation will feel pride and honour that Archbishop Seaborn has been selected and consecrated to carry on the duties of this high office. Sir, it is 182

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 75 IB-1 with great plensure thnt ve • on this side • support the motion moved by the Premier. l.fP. SPRAKEP: The hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). ~P. J. S~ALLWOOD: Mr. Spenker, I join with my two hon. friends in expressing R worcl of satisfaction and pleasure over the elevat:i.on of B1shop Seaborn. He will be the first Lorll Archbishop of Newfoundland nnd the first Archbishop in the Anglican Church in this Province of Newfoundland, in this Country of Newfoundland. The first Archbishop 1n Newfoundland t.tas the great Howley.

He was the first nat:ive-born Nevfoundlander to be a Bishop nnd he was the first Newfoundlander to be an Archbishop. We have had three men from Newfoundland to become Archbishops with jurisdiction outside Newfoundland, Archbishop Phelps of South Africa, Archbishop Pinkham of Western Canada and now Archbishop Seaborn with juristl1ction over a large part of the Nation of Canada. We have, of course, had a fntrly considerable number of Newfoundlanders, either native-born or by adoption,Wo became bishops in dffferent parts of the world.

At this moment we have four to five Newfoundlanders who are bishops in different parts of the world, as far away as Australia. We have another Newfoundlander who has risen as high as it is possible for any mnn to r:l.se within the limits of his religiom; faith, namely the general of the Salvation Army, General Clarence D. Wiseman who i.s the commanding general. There is only one general at a time in the Salvation Armv. I am delighted to remember that here in Newfoundland today we have two Archbishons, Archbishop Skinner and now Archbishop Seaborn, and to note the remnrknble s:i.milaritv in the two men.

They are both of them very plnin men, unostentatious and unpretentious, both of the~ friendly ~n, both of them deeply reli~ioua and both of them, ~tr. Speaker, moved by a profound ecumenical spirit. 1 do not think that Newfoundland could have been as p,ood as it is today, that Newfoundlanders of all faiths and of nll confessions could have been so much together as they are today if we had not had those two 183

Nnvet11her 26, 1975 -rnpe no. 75 !R-2 men tn our Mi~st, nctfVt> nnrl pnwerfuJ, influentinl. Skinner, Seaborn - thNH> tHo name~ will r:n cln1-'n properlv and r:f~thtfnHv in our history n."l men who mnrle t1 verv r.re.1t rontributlon to the pi>np1e of ~f'wfotmd lnnd. know that nll Newfoundlanders, not An~Hcans alone, are proud ('!Ver the fact that 11 Ne"1founrllander is now the second ranking - nnrl who is to snv thnt the word 'second' will not be replaced in the course of time -hut nlrearly the second rnnkinp AnRlican in this nntion of 24 million people. We cnn he proud of that, we Newfoundlanders.

Evervone of us can feel half nn inch taller. I would like therefore to join with all hon, members in this House in offerin~ my sincere cnnr.rntulations, not only to His Grace himself anrl not only to <tll Anp:lfcnn people in thP Province, but to the l<Jhole population of this Pnnrincc. . . 184

November 26. 1975 Tape no. 76 Page 1 - mw MR. SP~~KER: It has been moved, seconded and agreed that an appropriate resolution regarding the elevation of His Grace Archbishop Seaborn be recorded. PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. HR. J. HODDER: Hr. Speaker, I beg to present a petition on behalf of the Local Improvement District of Port au Port West. The prayer of the petition is that we, the undersigned, residents of the Local Improvement District of Port au Port West, Aguathuna and Felix Cove, reject having our property taxed. Mr.

Speaker, in supporting this petition, I must point out that the 292 signers of the petition are protesting a recommendation of the Whalen Commission on Municipal Government, The Commission, as you know, recommends that every municipality, with a water and sewer system or a water system, certainly a majority of its citizens should be required to adopt the real property tax as the primary source of revenue, While the recommendation has not been adopted by government, the Department of Municipal Affairs does encourage local improvement districts to levy a property tax.

The citizens in this area are against the property tax, Mr. Speaker, and this is an early attempt to nip it in the bud, so to speak, The Local Improvement District of Port au Port West, which is made up of Port au Port West, Felix Cove and Aguathuna 1 is not a wealthy area of the Province. However, the council collects 100 per cent 1 or nearly 100 per cent 1 of their service fees, which is $20. They have recently put in ten miles of water line at a cost of $300,000. The engineers~ hAd estimated that the water line would cost $750,000, In this area the majority of homes would be assessed below $~0,000, Mr.

Speaker, Very few homes in the district or in the aren would go above $15,000, If they were assessed a property tax of three mils on a $15,000 home, this would only bring in $45, and, as I say, few homes go above that. 185

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 76 Page 2 - mw Mr. Speaker. Newfoundlanders have always resisted property tax. and in this area the service fee paid by the residents can cope with the expense of projects which have been undertaken. I believe that the citizens are right. They do not need a property tax. The l.ocal Im~rovement District of Port au Port West can pay its own way • and there is no need for a real property tax in the area. The only real service they have, Mr. Speaker, is a water system, and they cannot afford to pay more than they do at present. 1 think it as well, Mr.

Speaker, that the Whalen Commission is wrong when they suggest that rural areas should have a property tax. They are taxed enough for what they have now. I hope the Minister of Municipal Affairs will be able to support this petition. Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKFR: The hon. member for Burin - Placentia. MR. P.

CANNING: Would the Premier inform the House if there are negotiations going on at present in regard to the sale of the Atlantic Fish Processinp plant at Marystown? HR~ MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I will take notice of the question, but [ have heard probably the same comments that the hon. member has. I think there are probably discussions going on~ Not to my knowledge has government been involved to any degree. I will certainly take notice and find out and advisP the hon. member. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: In the absence of the Minister of Finance, Sir, could the bon.

Premier clarify a matter that was raised in the budget on Monday? Does the extra two cents on the social security tax apply to those people who are usinR electricity to heat their homes and for purposes of cooking? 186

November 26, 1975. Tape 77 RH - 1 PREMIER MOORES: To my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, the answer to that is ves. MR. SPL~KER: The hon. member from Haie Verte-White Ray. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, my ~uestion is to the hon. the Premier. Yesterday I asked the hon. the Premier a question regarding investigations into industrial health hazards in Baie Verte and I appreciate his answer. I wonder today could the Premier tell the House who is actually carrying out these investigations and what the present state of those investigations are at this time? PREMIER MOORES: As I said yesterday, Mr. Speaker?

I said as soon as that information became available it would be brought before the House. The specific detail the hon. member asked me right now I cannot answer offhand but I most certainly will undertake to supply the answer within the next day or two. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Thank yout Mr. Premier. Has the Premier received a tele~ram then from the President of the union in Bale Verte saying that he is not aware of any such investigations ongoing at this present time? PREMIER MOORES: The answer to that is no 9 Mr. Speaker, I have not. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Eagle River. MR. I.

STRACf~N: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the H1nister of Fisheries. Would the minister tell the House who owns the fi.sh plant at Fox Harbour and what is the situation concerning its possible sale'? MR. SPEAKER: The tUnis ter of Fisheries. HON. W. CARTER: That question I will answer later. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member. MR. s. MULROONEY {Fxrloits): Hr. Speaker, I wish to direct my questions to the han. Premier. In the absense of the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs I ask the Premier the status of the $820,000 designated to the town of Rotwood for water and sewerage development? 187

Novemher 2h, 197'). Tape 77 RH - 2 PltFHIFH ~fOORFS: r·nu1d the hon. member repeat the question. T am sorry, 1-lr, Speaker. MR. '"IULROONEY: asked the hon. Premier the status of the $820,000 des-lr,natcd to the Rotwood municipal council for water and sewerage devt> lopmcnt. PREMIER MOORES: I will have to take notice of that question, Mr. Spe11ker. \-lhen the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing comes backJwhich will be tomorrow, he will be advised in the morning and hopefully give the answer at that time. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. memher from Trinity - Bay de Verde. HR. f. ROWE~ Hr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Hould the minister assure the.

House, Sir, that the paving of the roads in Trinity - Bay de Verde such as the Northern Point road and the road around the pond to Cavendish wtdch were(Cavendish, around the pond in Cavendish)~hich were slated for paving this year for which tenders were let but the roads were terminated because of the weather condition, the paving of the roads were terminated because of the weather conditions, will the minister assure the House that this programme, these roads will he paved at the earliest possible time in the Spring or Summer of 19761 ~m. SPf:.AKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. IJON.

J. MORGAN: Hr. Speaker, ttl! contracts that were let prior to the announcement hv the Premier of the austerity programme in this Province, whether they be for reconstruction of roads or paving of roads, these contracts are onp,oing contracts and if the work has not been completed this Fall hy the contractors concerned, it will be carr.ied on in early Spring. MR. 5PE.A.KER: The hon. memher from Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: ~r. Speaker, could the minister indicate whether or not n contract exists for the paving of the Custer's Head Road in Uant's Harbour in the district of Trinity-Bay de Verde? AN HON.

MEHRER: How urgent is it? 188

;rovemher 211 • 19 7 '). Tape 77 RH - 3 t-rli. rmw: It is very urgent. MR. SPEAKER: ·----- )'-fR. ROHE: I will let vou know in a minute why, if you want to pursue it. MR. HORGAN: Hr. Speaker, I will take notice of that question and give you the answer tomorrow. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Exploits. MR. MULROONEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the hon. Premier. Could the hon. Premier clarify the present status of a promise made to the west end residents of Bishop Falls this past summer concerning a promised sewer programme for that area? PREl'UER MOORES: Hr. Speaker.

T cannot give the details hut I can assure you thnt 1 never make a promise that I do not fulfill even in elections, unlike what the hon. member believes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for I.aPoile. MR. NEARY: A question to the hon. Minister of Fisheries. Would the minister inform the House if there is in fact an agreement between the provincial government and the federal government to close down some small fish plants in Newfoundland.and would the minister care to identify these plants that are scheduled to be closed down? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. l'-1R. W. CARTER: }-Jr.

Speaker, I am not aware of any such agreement hut c;,rtninly I "Will look into it and be able to inform the hon. member later in the House. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir: Is the minister aware that his predecessor made a public statement that there was in existence such an agreement nnd that some plants would be closed? Is the minister aware of that? HR. CARTER: ! am nwnre of the statement, Hr. Speaker, that was made hv mv predecestwr. the ~1inister of Fisheries concerning the future licensing of small feeder plants.

T am certainly not aware of any agreement whereby smaller plants would be closed down1 but again I will look into it. 189

~ovember 26, 1975. Tape 77 RH - 4 HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Baie Verte-White Ray. MR. RJ..Q]Q!!!: Mr. Speaker. my question is for the Minister of Health. Could the minister inform the House as to whether or not the promised half million dollar extention to the M.J. Boylen l!ospital in Baie Verte will go ahead this year? 190

November 26, 1975 Tape No. 78 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Hinister of Health. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. I cannot give any more information than what has already been given with regard to hospital extensions and construction in general than was given vesterday. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. MR. MOORES: With permission I would like to answer that. As far as hospital construction in the province is concerned, it has been announced very clearly that any project that is not underway at the present time planning will ao ahead on this vear.

There will be no construction until such time as the economic times of this Province are such to allow us to go ahead and that will be aa soon as possible, but in the meantime there are no definite plans to do new building in this year and that should be made very clear now. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker) I wish to direct my question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications~ Will the minister tell the House what in occurring with the proposed and promised airstrip at Cartwright~ Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. HR.

MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, tenders were called and tenders are closed, but to date no decision has been made whether or not a contract will be fhJFrrled this year. HR. SPE,\.Kt~:'; The hon. meir.ber for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations,but in his absence perhaps the Premier or the Minister of Industrial Development might be able to answer it~ Would t·he minister or the Premier inform. the House whether it is the government's intention to appoint an industrial enquiry into the newsprint industry in Newfoundland as requested by the Joint Mill Unions :i.n Gnmd Falls? MR. MOORES: Not at the present time, Mr. Speaker. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker? Could the Premier tell us 191

November 26. 1975 Tape No. 78 NM - 2 whether or not any attempts are being made at the present time to bring labour and management together in respect ta the strikes at the three paper mills in Newfoundland1 MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the strikes at the paper mills in Newfoundland are the same as the strikes in the paper mills across Canada. This is not a Grand Falls, Corner Brook, Stephenville paper mill strike.

It is the position taken by the national unions, who are one union in this case~against the pulp and paper industry in Canada and I think also probably to a lesser degree a test case before the anti-inflationary board. I think it would be very wrong for us to get involved on the local scene until such time as the anti-inflation board has ruled on the Mersey Pulp and Paper dispute, the K.C. Irving settlement,as I understand it, reached this morning in New Brunswick, and to do anything until the national picture has cleared up I think would be totally irresponsible. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Lewisporte. MR.

WHITE: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker? Would the Premier inform the House whether or not he is aware of any attempt to have the paper unions and the paper mills in Newfoundland excluded from provincial labour legislation and to come under federal labour legislation as suggested by Bill Rompkey, the N.P. for Grand Falls­ White Bny~Labr3dor. MR. MOORES: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. I would never be responsible for anything ~r. Rompkey suggested in that regard. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ~r. Speak~r~ t would like to put a question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Would the minister inform the House whether or not a decision has yet been taken in connection with the tunnel underneath the Straits of Belle Isle joining Newfoundland to the mainland part of the Province to make it not only a tunnel to carry the transmission cable but to rarry traffic and passengers? Has that decision yet been taken? MR. HI~ It was announced. MR. NEARY: It was not announced. 19~

November 26, 1975 Tape No. 78 NM - J ~. MORGAN: Sir. thnt question should be on the Order Paper, please. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for lnPoHe~ HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister of Tourism, In view of the fact that the minister has been quoted publicly as saying that he knew that the masts that were installed in the Norma and Gladys were the wrong masts, would the minister inform the House what action he took, if any, to stop these wrong masts from being put in the Norma and Gladys and the right masts vill be put in? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Hr.

Speaker, I never suggest we put that question on the Order Paper, it is confusing enough right now. I never did say that I knew in advance of the masts going in. You cannot always believe, Mr. Speaker, what you read~and sometimes you cannot even believe what you hear or even see. I did say that I was aware before the vessel sailed, I did not say that I was aware before the masts were stepped in at the shipyards. Obviously if I had kn~wn that they would not have gone in. 193

Tape No. 79 matter is under investieatJon itnd it has been n•ferred to the Justft'e flepartment. smtE BON. }lEPBF.RS: Oh, oh! AN HON. !'AE1fBEP: Ff!<lernl-provincinl. TR-1 ~~'_!?.. NEARY: 1 was iust f>;oins; to put the question to the minister. Hho in fact paid the c.ost of repladnp, these IMSts in New York? Hns it the provinci;d ROVernment or the r.overnment of Canada or was it shnrecl by both r,overnments. ~. SPEAKEr: The hon, ~inister of Tourism. liON. T.V. HICKEY: Well, t•r.

Speaker, obviously this expense has to he picked up by the Province initially. 1fuether or not it will be cost-shared, whether that item essentinlly will be cost-shared is A matter that I cannot answer at this point in time. But, as I said, the mntter wns investJgated and it was also referred to the Department of Justjce and negotiations or discussions ATe f!;oing on now between the shipyards, my rlepartment and the Newfoundland Hnrdwoods.,who supplied the masts. PR. SPEAKER: The hnn. member for Fogo (rapt. E. Winsor). CAPT. F.. WlNSOR: ~r. Speaker- HR. SMALLWOOD: The cost of the whole project, how was it shared?

"ff!.. I!H':KFY: It is on n cost-sharing formula, !-tr. Spenker, between the ff?"th•rnl government and the Province. The departments,or the ngencies invo1ved 1 nre the Department of F.xternal Affairs and the Secretary of State through the Nntinnal t'ttseums Programme. ~P. SPEAKEP: The hon. me~ber for Fogo (Capt. F,. Winsor). C:APT F:. HINSOP: ?<'r. Speaker, along the same lines, can the minister inform the 1Iour;e if the Norma am! <!_!l!_dys is now off dry-dock in Panama? Has the ves!H.~l been cleared seaworthy? Is she on her way? What is the situation with her at this time? tfP. HICKEY: 1-'r.

Speaker, there was never any doubt about the seawo-rthyness of the vessel or we would hnve never allowed her to 1enve port at St. John's. SOHE HON. 1-o/MRFRS: Oh, oh! 1'-fR. BirKEY: Hell, l<'r. Spenker, I am not going to try to convince the 194

November 26, 1975 Tape No. 79 bon. members. I am just stating a matter of fru:t. I am tired real] y of refl tnt inp: it but one has to, f-APT. \-HNSflP: H;,n ''h" lett Bnbnn yet? IB-2 t1P. HICKFY: 1 wHl have to check, Hr. Spenker. I have to be very careful what I say on th:is project. The vessel is off dry-dock, nothing very serious. Work is completed and I am told that the captain is quite pleased with the work and quite pleased with the performance of the vessel to date. MR. NEARY: W'hat work was involved? }'R. HICKEY: Scraping near the hull and bottom.

Some inspection of caulking and a little recaulkinp, I understand and the applying of the - MR. NEARY: Hater-logged. MR. HICKEY: Some minor le~ks~ nothing to be - MR. NEARY: }linor leaks? _MR. HICKEY: Oh, a few minor leaks. That is not - Mr. Speaker, it is unbelievable that my hon. friend who used to be the member for Bell Isl:md and of course who. I am sure, still goes back and forth to Rell Island, crosses the WAter and hns crossed the water so often is alarmed or surpriserl to find that a wooden vessel would take a HttJe water. PR. SPEAKEP: The hnn. member for Eagle niver {Mr. Strachan). ~. i.

STrACHAN: In the absence of the Minister of Mines and Energy, T would Like to dlrect my question to the hon. Premier. Would the Premier tell the House l¥-bether H is planned to provide the community of Williams Hsrtnu::- wHh electricity as promised and if so, when? YR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The phrnReo~nRY a number of times has gone on and if it happened one time, then I think one would not necessarily intervene but it is quite clear that in putting orAl questions, they are not to be argumentative or to stnte any opinion which it is not necessary to stnte.

T nm therefore informinr the hon. ~entlemnn thnt the epithet, "ns pror-lisecl" used,certainly now used on a continuing bas is is :improper. The hon. the Premier. 195

~nvcmber 26, 1975 Tape no. 79 HR. MOORF.S: ~·r. Spen.ker, with all due respect to yourself, Sir, the question got tnst in thP explanation of the

interpretation, The fact is, :md fin(l out. do not know the answer to that. I will look it up MR. ROBERTS: Winston ChurehJll Uhite, I tnk~ it? J.ff', ~ORES: A very reliable source. ~fP'. SPEAKER: Tht> hon. tnerr.her for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). IB-J PP. NEARY: ~·r. Speaker, I would like to refer a question to the hon. Minister of Justice. Hill the minister inform the House H it is the intention of his department and the government to renegotiate two municipnl contracts-or one municipal contract, I think it is, in Newfou'ndlanri with the Pf':!'fP or is the minister looking at the possibi.Uty of estahltsh{ng a brnnch of the Newfoundland Constabulary in Western Newfoundland? 196

November 26, 1975 Tape no, HO Page 1 - mv MR. SPEAKER; The hon. Minister of Justice. HON. T. A. HICKMAN {Minister of Justice); Hr. Speaker. the contract betvcen the Government of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada, covering the services of the RCMP in Newfoundland, both under the provincial contract and two municipal contracts, one for Labrador City and the other for the City of Corner Brook, will expire on March 31 of next year.

The Solicitor General of Canada, who is the minister responsible for the RCMP, submitted new proposals to the eight provinces who use the services of the RCMP on a contractual basis many months ago. and he was advised by this Province, through me, in May of last year that the proposals then presented were not satisfactory.

Then the Solicitor General of Canada referred the matter back to his colleagues, and following the time-honoured tradition of the Government of Canada, vithout notice~conveyed on November 11, Armistice Day, even though that day we had asked to have it on another day, the final proposal insofar as the financing of the RCMP is concerned in the eight Canadian Provinces who use their services.

There was a very considerable reduction by the Government of Canada from the amount that they had asked and said that they were insisting on being paid in April of this year, and we are down now to give or take approximately fifty-two per cent as opposed to fifty per cent which is the amount we pay now for certain services performed in the Province. There are other Hems in the proposed contract which, in my opinion. must be the subject matter of renegotiation.

It is my belief that if we are voing to RUCcessfuly renegotiate that contract it is de~irable first to ~ee whether we can get a consensus amongst the four Atlantic ProvlLC0t;. Today in Fredericton the deputy ministers of Justice are meeting with other advisors to review the proposalsyand the hope is that later this month~or early in December, there will be a meeting in St. John's, Newfoundland of the four Atlantic Provinces' A.G,'s so that we can proceed with a united front on these other items which we consider to be still negotiable.

Insofar as the second part of the question is concerned, there has been no consideration on the part of government to restrict in any way the areas covered by the RCMP at the present time. 197

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 80 PaRe 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, 1 am sorry. tf it is a supplementary, I will give way to the hon. l!entleman. MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Is this in the same - No, 1 have a differ~nt subject. A supplementary - Go ahead. The Leader of the Opposition haa ceded to the bon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) for a.supplementary question. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice, but it is on a different subject entirely.

Could the minister indicate to the House, Mr. Speaker, whether he has asked the Minister of Justice for Canada to proceed immediately with the appointment of the third appellate judge, the third judge in the Appenl Division of our Supreme Court? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: The hon, Minister of Justice. Sir. I know the answer. The hon. Leader of the Opposition unfortunately does not know the answer. He might resign if I told him - MR. ROBERTS: ~R. HICKMAN: You will not resign over it Alec. - as leader of the Liberal Party. He should be - Mr.

Speaker, the situation is this, and I think for the benefit of all Newfoundlanders they should be made very aware of what the situation is with res~ect to the Superior Court of this Province at this time. Laat year this House enacted the first ma1or piece of legislation resulting in a restructuring of our Superior Courts in more than 125 years, The responsibility of the Province is to provide adequate facilities for the courts. We have no responsibility for appointment or paying the salaries of Superior or- District Court Judges.

We proceeded to provide facilities, and they were in place, oh, it must be at least six months ago for the Appellate Court. 198

November 26, 1975. Tape 81, Page 1 -- apb We also provided, again to he sure that there would be no delays on the part of the Province. five new posts for the Appellate Court. After the legislation was passed in Ottawa providing for the appointment of the new ,iudRes, and appointments "Were made, it was brought to the attention of the Province that these new facilities might be better suited for the District Courts in the St. John's area and the facilities at that time occupied by the District Courts made available to the Appellate Court.

Consequently, without delay~ within a matter of days of the request being made, the District Court judges moved to the building on Duckworth Street formerly the Daily News building where they are now functioning. The Appellate Court renovations are proceeding with absolute speed and my colleague the hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services informs me that his men advise him that the renovations will be completed on or about December 31 of this year. In the meantime we have a rather difficult situation. We now have two judges of the Trial Division without any offices, Mr. Justice Mahoney and Hr.

Justice Goodridge. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER' Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! !-fR. HICKMAN' There is simply no room - MR. SPEAKER: Order! 'fR. lliCK!-.fAN: Sorry! MR. SPEAKER: I want to call the attention of the hon. minister to Beauchesne

chapter 181 subsection 1, as I called to the attention of one of his colleagues yesterday. I will read the brief section~ "Questions must be ansl<lered hr1cfly and distinctly;' it r.oes on;•and be limited to the necessary e:xplant:ti.oml though a certain latitude is permitted to Ministers of the Crown whenever they find it necessary to extend their remarks with the view of clearlv explaining the matter in question." Obviously that citation is open to misuse and abuse.

I would point out that I think the essential part of it is obviously the first statement it makes and I call it to the attention of the bon. member because the explanations or additional data must be necessary explanation so that the answer will be intelliaible~ 199

November 20, 1975, Tape 81, Pat<!f' 2 -- aph MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Sneaker, may I thank Your Honour for the wisdom and compassion on which that ruling was based. In view of the fact the minister did not answer my question as to whether or not he had asked the Minister of Justice in Ottawa to proceed immediately with the appointment of the missing Supreme Court judge, the Appellate judge, I am dissatisfied with his answer and let us give him, Sir, the opportunity to debate it tomorrow and then we will talk about who will not be resigning from this House to accept the appointment. HR. SPF.AKER: So noted.

The bon. the Hembcr from LaPoUe. MR. NF:ARY: Mr. Sneaker, I want to put a question to the Minister of Social Services, Sir. Would the minister inform the House if the fifty dollar allowance to needy blind persons in this Province has been sent out to all the people who qualify, all the blind people? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. HR. BRETT: I will have to take note of the nuestion, Mr. Speaker, I do not have the information with me at the moment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Premier.

I wonder would the Premier indicate to the House what action the government has t.ol::en concerning additional office space for the public service, and in particular whether a contract has been awarded as a result of tenders that were called last Spring for rental space. MR. SPEAKER: The hon, the Premier. MR. MOORES: The answer to the second part of the question is no awa~d has been made to anybody. Re~arding space, Mr. Speaker, I think the Leader of the Opposition and other members of this hon. House realize iust how critical it is becominr,.

It is not as critical as that we will not find offices for M.l!.A's, but it means that someone else will have to do without, but the srace situation from the public service point of view is very unsatisfactory. lt is a situation where there are some seventeen locations around the town, around the city now 1>1here various departments or sections of departments are located. It makes for very great inefficiency and T think that something will have to be done soon. Unfortunately it is the type of thing that is mnde a political 200

November 26, 1975, Tape 81, Page 3 -- aph football and sometimes a very partisan one 7which is most unfortunate. But the need for space at this time is very severe. It is something that I hope we can come to an agreement on, you know, for the good of all concerned rather than having it used for the wrong purposes. But certninly it is something that we are going to have to do something about very quickly or very soon, HR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the question now, Sir. 201

November 26, 1975 Tape No. 82 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LnPoile. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. the Premier inform the House if the Workmen's Compensation Board has been given approval by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to put up their own building and rent office space to the government? MR. MOORES: I do not know. I will take notice of the question and certainly advise him~ But I legitimately do not know. MR. NEARY: You mean you are in the Cabinet and - MR. ~ORES: To the best of my knowledge it is not so, no. MR. NF~RY: It is not so. ¥R. MOORES: Not as far as I know. no.

MR. mTRPUY: Could we have that information in the Cabinet, please? MR. SPEAKE~ Order, please! The hon, member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would not the hon. the Premier agree that for the next couple of years civil servants and other Crown agency employees and everybody in Newfoundland drawing his or her pay from the Treasury should be expected to share ~ith the general public in the sacrifice that has got to be made. I am arguing 1 but let me put it very succinctly; can we not do with what we have got for the next couple of years and save that much expenditure? MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker. t think we have~too 1 and certainly if it came to public tendering the government would have great difficulty finding the money. But on a lease back policy which was the procedure of the past we may be able to arrange it if it is absolutely necessary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. He had indicated but be has changed his mind. The bon. member for La Poile. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, since nobody else has a question to ask I have one for the Minister of Education. Would the minister inform the House if the government are going to proceed with plans announced in this hon.

House in the Throne Speech two years ago to extend the teaching day at the vocational schools and at the College of Trades and Technology and the Fishery College in order to facilitate the number of students that now have to be turned away from these training facilities? 202

November 26. 1975 Tape No. 82 NM- 2 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the question but I am not able to answer it at this time. I will take notice of that question. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Sp~aker, I wonder could I direct this question to the hon. the Premier. What is the current situation reRarding space and the plans that were made some years ago to extend the Confederation Building? Is that dormant, forgotten or where does it lie at the moment? MR. MOORES: It is vPry difficult to answer.

There has been plans for leasing space at Atlantfc Place, at new buildings. We asked for proposals where we had various designs and various concepts. some in the old building out here. some on the new extension on the west end. The whole thing has become much more complicated than ever it should have. Probably a decision should have been made earlier 1 and probably that is government's fault,but the fact is that it is serious and I agree with what the bon. the member from Twillingate said)that austerity measures mean an austerity treatment to a lot of people..

But the one thing you cannot have is austerity at the total cost of efficiency either. I think it is may be the subject of an all-party committee to sit down and take a look at. I am not opposed to that because it 1s the type of a thing I think that is going to have to be dealt with in the not very distant future. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Exploits. MR. MULROONEY: Nr.

Speaker, in the absence of the minister, would the bon. the Premier state whether the balance of a $21,000 grant to the Recreation Commission al Point of Bay of which $5,250 has been awarded, will the agreed financing of the balance over the next three years be guaranteed to enable the MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! In my opinion that will be the type of question of detailed answer- mathematical, statistical kind of answer­ which would be better placed on the Order Paper. 203

Novemher 26, 1975 Tape No. 82 NM - ) MR. Mt~ROONEY: Thank you. Mr. Speaker. f-IR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Port au Port. HR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct this question to the han. M1nister of Fisheries (Mr. Carter). Has the Minister of Fisheries made a decision as to what will be done to replace the Fishermen's Co-op which recently went into receivership on the Port au Port Peninsula? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. CARTER: A decision has not been made yet. I visited Port au Port on the weekend, as the han. member knows. We had meetings with the development corporation out there.

At one point the co-oo peoPle requested a sixty day option to enable them to investigate the possibility of re-establishing the Co-op. But on Sunday at the meeting I was told by one of the people roncerned that the option had been dropped and they were n(lt nOW' interested in re-establishin2 onP. Rut certainly a decision will be made very shortly on it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could direct a question to the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Carter).

Some time ago he announced that he wns travelling throughout the province visiting various areas and so on. l~hc still doing this and does he have some kind of an itinerary or

schedule in m:ind1 I ask the questi.on, Mr. Speaker, because I have had some enquiries in my own district on this matter and this is why I ask it at this time. HR. CARTER: "fr, Speaker, 204

November 26, 1975 Tape 83 PK - l MR. CARTER: I have been travellin~ around. l vislted parts of Bonnvista North anrl Fogo district. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR.CARTER: parts of Rose Blanche and Port nux Basques, also Port au Port. This week I will be travelling to parts of my own riding and also the Port au Choix area - but it is an on-going programme which I nm - HR. ROBERTS' NR. SPEAKER: MR. CARTER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Will the minister be coming back? Order, please! You are awfully funny, you know. The thirty minutes for oral question period has transpired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move that the regular order of business today be suspended to discuss a matter of urgent public importance. namely, to give a name to the eight pound seven ounce baby boy the Premier has, and I hnve my suggestion here for Your Honour. HR. ROBERTS: Are you sure that is a matter for a select committee? HR. SPEAKER: I would be afraid to ask whether the hon. gentleman has leave. We might end up - ~m. NOLAN: I wonder if T could ask a question along the same lines.

Since the income of the hon. the Premier has increased by something over !'>22.00 per month ln the last twenty-four hours? is it within the ten per cent guidelines? MR. MOORES: It depends on which family we are talking about? Mr. Speaker, but on the whole, yes. MR. SPEAKER' On 0rders of the Day this being Private Member's Day we proceed to Motion 4. Tile hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank vou, Mr. SpeakPr. I would warn the Premier in case he does not know that the 522.00 is taxable.

The trouble is the cheque is not made out to him it is made navable to his wife, so he loses it coming and gets it going or vice versa. 205

November 26, 1975 Tape RJ PK - 2 Mr. Speaker, the motion which is before the Chair now, I think speaks for itself. It is quite a lengthly motion as motions go. There are a number of

preamble clauses which, Your Honour, was kind enough to let- not only to let through. which we appreciate, but to let through without giving us a ruling thereon,which we also appreciate. but the pith and essence of it is in the first resolved clause which reads quite simply • "that n select Committee be appointed to enquire into and to report upon the prospects for Newfoundland and Labrador~ including the prospects for economic r.rowth and development and in particular a consideration of those types of development which are best suited to foster and to encourage the way of life most " desired by the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Now. Sir, in a sense, I suppose, it could be said the motion needs no debate, because I am sure that every bon. gentleman will support it. But I do think it is worth some discussion. I hope there will be debate, because to me, Sir, the subject of this motion is the very heart and soul of what this House of Assembly should be talking about and should be doing. The intent and the purpose of this motion, Mr. Speaker, is nothing more or less than to permit and to set up the mechanism whereby we can chart a course for the future of this Province.

Now it could be said, Sir, that this is the job of the government of the Province. It could be said this is what they have been doing in the latit 150 years that we have had governments in this Province~or elected governments~whether they be responsible or representative. But, Sir, the fact that this motion is put forward, I think, is evidenced that the government are not meeting this need. I do not make the motion, Hr.

Speaker, in any f''1rtisan sense, If we wish we could have a gorgeous debate here in the next eight or nine or twelve or fifteen Private ~ember's Days on exactly what went on or what did not go on during any given period of any given administration of this Province's history. That would be inter~sting but very non-productive and essentially in the long run 11 complete waste of the time of this House. I do not think. Mr. SpeakerJ that is why any of us were sent here. 206

November 26, 1975 Tape 83 PK - 3 I am prepared to say and I believe that every government and every minister over the years has tried as best they could to achieve what they could for the people of this Province. There have been some successes, and there have been some failures. We might not agree on what the successes are and what the failures are, but we can all agree that there have been successes and there have been failures, 207

November 26. 1975. "lR. RORF:RTS: Tape 84 RH - 1 But I think it is sterile and futile to go over the past. Tt was George Santayana,! believe~Yho said that those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. It is all very well to remember it. Sir. hut if the debate on this motion takes the course of going over what has or has not heen done over the years I submit it will be a waste of the House's time and a waste of the time of the people of this Province.

I think we should accept the fact that all of the members of this House now and in the past are basically men of good will and go on from that point. The motion is very straightforward. It is an effort.as I said. Mr. Speaker, to set up a mechanism. The request is that the committee when appointed be given quite broad powers. It is specifically given the power to sit from place to place throughout the Province. I think that is of the utmost importance because if this committee is to do their job properly they must sit not only ln St. John' s .. whieh is where normally a Select Committee can si.t 1 or only in St.

John's can a Select Committee sit normally unless it is given other powers, I believe they should be prepared to sit at place to place throu~hout this Province, certainly not in every community hut in every rep.:i.on, to give every citizen of the Province the opportunity to come, to see them, to hear them, to state Hhnt they wish with respect to the commission's terms of reference.

The commission is also given the power to send for papers and documents and the other words in there would give the commission power to examine witnesses under oath, to commit for contempt and all of the powers which nornally are visited upon a royal commission. nothing unusual, nothing exceptional. He are not going to get an inquisition. The powers arc no gr;:nter than every royal commission ever issued in this Province has had conferred upon it. That is just the mechanics, Sir.

The important polnt of it is that a commission be set up ancl the committee be set up to look into certain thing~ and those certain things, Mr. Speaker, nre not just the 208

November 2£1. 1Q75. HR. ROBERTS: Tape 84 RH - 2 economic prospects for this Province but the prospects - period - for the future of Newfoundland and tahrador. Now, Sir, I suppose the Hrst question which I must try to answer and try to convince the honourable gentlemen - the honourable lady is not with us this day as she is benefiting from provisions of the HedicarP programme and suffering from a bad case of what we hope is the flu- hut what I must try to convince honourable gentlemen is why should we have such an enquiry now? Why, 1975, why at this point in our history should we have such an enquiry?

Then, if we are to have such an enquiry • Hr. Speaker, why should it take the form of a Select Committee? Of all the mechanisms open to the public administration of this Province, why should we have a Select Committee as opposed to a royal commission,or an opposed to a minister of the Crown or a number of ministers ~oing and receiving briefs,or as opposed to any of the possible mechanisms which could be developed. So these are questions which must be ans~red and these are questions which I shall answer.

But there is one, Sir, which I do not think I need to answer~and I do not propose to)and that is the question of why hnve such an enquiry at all. Surely there is nobody in this House, Hr. Spenker. nobody in this Province who would say that this is not a right and a proper subject for this House of Assembly to be about.

It is a matter which concerns us, which should concern us and which affects the people of this Province more intimately than almost anything which we do in this House, In a sense, Sir, 95 per cent of what this House carrles out. in the course of a session or twelve months is housekeeping,and I do not say that as a pun. We deal with the estimates. We de;~l with the appropriation bills.

We deal with minor amendments to replace commas and put semi-colons in and we put through legislation like it. js going out of style and most of it goes on the statute books and there it rests of value only to lawyers who can charge high fees for interpreting it and for arguing as to what it means and civil servants who are paid reasonably good wages 209

~>!ovember 26, 1975. Tape 84 RH - 3 to use the powers conferred under it. Huch of what we do is house­ keeping. Tt has to be done and the House is the proper place to do it. Rut a lot of it, Sir, if it were not to be done at all would not in any way lessen life in Newfoundland. It might improve it considerably. I want to talk, Sir, on what this motion talks about. It is not the housekeeping of Newfoundland and Labrador but rather what kind of house we should have and what kind of Province we can build. t want n 210

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 85 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts: 2rand national inquest into this Province. I do nut think there i~ anybody. Sir, I cannot conceive of anybody who could or would argue against this, and I cannot conceive of anybody who would argue. could or would argue that this inquest should not be carried out by this House. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, I believe the bon. gentleman from Grand Falls { Mr. Lundrigan) said something. MR. LUNDRIG~~: Inquest? MR. ROBERTS: I said inquest, i-n-q-u-e-a-t, If the hon. gentleman ia not familiar with a word of two syllables, Mr.

Speaker, I should be very happy to ask the page to bring him a dictionary, and I will have somebody point it out to him. Hr. Speaker, the original definition of parliament, one of the original

definitions of parliament)is a grand inquest into the affairs of the nation, and that is what I think we should be about now. It is not a new quest, Mr. Speaker. It is not a new issue. In a sense it has come up in this House in every session of the thirty-seven General Assemblies that have sat here. It baa been a constant preoccupation of Newfoundlanders. Anybody who reads anything of our history must be struck by that. I suppose the classic formulation was the Reverend Moses Harvey back in the 1880's who. as I recall reading it, once gave a sp,eech which said, where now and whither tending.

The puff boiler, the propaganda, the puff piece which Whitbourne, Admiral Whitbourne. Sir Richard Wbitbourne published early in the seventeenth century to entice people to come to Newfoundland was a form of it. The most interesting little book* which my friend from Twiliingate published in 1930, I believe it was, the 11New Nevfoundland'' was given over to an intensive examination and a discourse upon what could and should be done with Newfoundland. We can go right on down through the piece, through columns and newspapers, and through public speeches and through speeches here in this House. But why now, Sir?

Why should we have an inquiry now? Why this year of all the years? Well, Sir, I think first of all that there is great and growing public awareness and concern. The hon. gentleman from St. John 1 s East (Mr. Marshall) made a public statement recently in which he adverted to it, and I expect him to support this motion. I think it is the sort of motion which would lead 211

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 85 Page 2 - row to the rmmlt that he had in mind, as I read and as I understood his public statements, But there is growing awareness around this Province. Any of us who moves around and talks with our people and listens to our people knows that there is a growing concern in this Province. Just where are we going and what are we in for? What can we expect1 What are we getting? Are we making any progreas 1 or are we falling behind?

We have a government that came into office, an administration that came into office four years ago in a sea change, a complete reversal of a political situation which had existed for twenty-three years, and they came Into office planning and promising a new direction, They have obviously failed in that, Sir. Unemployment is up. After four years we are still getting the same rhetoric. We got it in the Throne Speech again. We had it in the Budget Speech. All we are getting is rhetoric, the change of parties, Sir, the change of political stripes of the administration. The hon. gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) on Sunday, on the television said essentially the same thing that the change and direction which he expected four years ago did not come. It did not happen, And many of us feel that way. The people of Newfoundland nnd Labrador feel that way. The change of the political complexion of the administration did not really change very much, Let me just read an

article written by a man very knowledgeable and skilled in the development field, Mr. Frederick Evans, who I believe is now on the staff of the university, Do you know if he is? 1 think he is on the staff of the centre for the development of community initiatives. MR. ROWEl__ Fred Evnns. ~~ Hr. Fred Evans. But this is an

article which he has Just written. He puts a prefatory note on it which is most interesting. 1\The following

article was produced as a form of performance evaluation and was intended to he released in that context. The calling of a provlnctnl election, however~ created the situation where the

article could have been construed as partisan politics. The presentation for publication was. therefore, withheld until after the election, and ia now presented with some modification" - as was the government after the election 212

November 26. 1975 Tape no, 85 Page 3 - mw Let us just read what Hr. Evans, an expert in the field of development and planning, said and I gladly, if anybody wants, read the entire eleven page piece, but let me just read the first two or three paragraphs because they set the pattern, 213

Novemher 2fi. 1975 Tape no. 86 IH-1 ~r. f:vnns says. "the present government hns a lot of rhetoric to live up to. We all remember the way we nodded approval as we listened to the concept of "The team approach to ~ood governmene'. We all thrUled to the bright future held out to us by "the rntionnl appronch to the development of the NewfoundlAnd economy" nnd, of courNe the centrnJ place that rural development occupied in the thinkin~ of the new ~overnment (by which he meant the present administratirn). The new government held us nll spellbound. All of these great things were to come to us by processes of planning.

"Three years la.ter we see the results of the fntnl step from the nice, wnrm bath of theory to the icy cold shower of practice. The team approach to good ~overnment has only resulterl in the concentration of power in n small number of cabinet members and bureaucrats who head up groupinys of cabinet portfolios and high salaried civil servants. Lesser cabinet ministers and backbenchers have little or no say in the running of the ~overnment.

The rational approach to the development of the Newfoundland economy hns resulted in a vnst increase of borrowing with a corresponding increase in the public deht, the mnkfnp; of a p;ood corporate citizen from a man condemned in the 1972 rhetori.~, tlnd increase~ snpport to the manure theOry of development vh!ch holds thnt if you spread enour,h money around something is bound to ~nnt ~ dpvastntin~ indictment of what this administration has or has not heen doing in the last three years! Now, ~r. Speaker, that in itself is reason enoup,h why we should have this enquiry now.

Then adtl on to thnt, Sir, the concern with the environment, a new concern, new to Newfoundland hut new across North America. Ten or fifteen or twenty vears ago nobody p;~ve a damn nbout the environment - if the price of industry was po11ut1.on then let us pay the price nnd glad to do it. But now, of course, ~fr. Speaker, now of course we are more ann more, and ~roperly so, concerned with the environment. Jlown in Baie Verte where my friend, the member for Baie Verte­ ~fu{te Rny (Mr. Rideout) has been told an invest1gation is under Yay. and nobody knows nhout the investigation including the Minister of 214

NOvember 26, 1975 Tnpe No. 86 IB-2 Health hecmtse there is no such investigation underway, down in Rnie Verte they nre becnminp, concerned nbout the environment,a.nd nut in Long Hnrbour the men who work there are becoming concerned nbout the environment, nut in Stephenville where when the wind is the wrong way you know there is a pulp mill across the bay by the odors cominR across, in C.ranrl Falls 1where the chip problem has caused a great deal of concern. and throughout the Province as n whole environmental matters are becoming of concern.

Our younger people nre becoming concerned wjth the quality of life. ¥any of the older people as well are becoming aware and concerned with questions of 1 i fe styles. I am not going to say we should have a book called The ~re_~!!JJt_g_LNewfoundland -~nd J,._o?l!rnrl£r ,but these are issues which are more and more of concern to more and more people of thls Province. There is more to 1 f fe than the almighty buck. Development at any price is not worth it. You know, a job is not an end to it all.

We must of course have economic development but if the price of economic development -!!'> the destructi.nn of much of the way of life of this Province, that is too dear a price to pay. That is the sort of thinking that must be taken into account and must be given the opportunity to express itself. There is a concern with the quality as vell as the quantity of 1ife in this Province. We had a royal commission on it in December, 1967 and the report came in, a lovely document, 500 pages, Mr.

Speaker. 1 w:Ul vager thnt of the fifty-one men and women who sit in this House this day there are not five Yho have read that document. And- I will wager there are not 500 people tn the whole of this Province out of the 550,000 of us between Trepasfiey and Cape Chid ley who have read that document. There is n lot in it that is useful. The present Premier wa~ a member of the commission. He may even have read the report, Sir. He 'Will be one of the five members ~~o has~ Rut, Sir, that report said that it was only good for five to ten years and tt was presented to the government eight years ago. It fs outCated now.

Then finally, Mr. Speaker, -we have a new House. 215

November 26. 1975 Tape No. 86 IR-3 MR. LUNDRIGAN: llnw nmny neon]e have rend ft, h:tvf' vou flUgp:esteft? MP, POBE~S: I !'<ttp:r,.est there might be five in the House. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Hhnt Rhout in the Province'! f>!P. POBFPTS: 1 sai~ there might be 500 in the Province,and I nm being p:enerous. t'J!. LUNORIGA."': What about your enquiry, your inquest? How many are going to rend your inl"!uest? ~R. RORE'PTS: T cln not know how mnny are goinp, to read the inquest.

It will be like the report on the political post-mortem on the hon. gPntleman's career, brief but inglorious in Bonavista-Trinity-Conception, of no interest to anybody, Sir. !-tr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman from Crane Falls (Mr. Luncfrigan), Sir. is not n freshman in 1er,is1ative ~atters,nlthough he is a freshman in this House. If he wishes to p;o on in this way, I - certainly there have been better mPn than him try this~and he is willing to try and hf'! Wi 11 J!:et <HI r,oorl BR he piVeR, TIUt t J 1o'OUld RUggest 216

November 26~ 1975. Tape 87 RH - I that that is not adding to the stature of debate. If he wants to play the little games that he won himself such a name for in Ottawa. hut not in his constituency - his constituents expressed their views on it - then let him gang ahead. I am trying to make what I consider to be a very important matter. If the hon. gentleman does not feel that way let him either leave the Chamber or let him be quiet. And I am willing to bet, Sir, he has not read this report.

He is not one of the five men ~o has any idea of what is in that report, although as the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development he mip,ht be well advised because, of course, he has one of the major responsibilities for tryin~ to do something about it4 As the bon. gentleman from Twillingate said on opening day, "The hon. gentleman from Grand Falls is going to find out there is a big difference between having one's mouth yapping in opposition,~ich had been his career up until now,and having to perform in ministerial office." I, for one- SOME liON. MEMBERS: Oh~ Oh! MR.

ROBERTS: The han. gentleman from Twillingate, the bon. gentleman from Twillingate on opening day was being suitably dignified as befitted all of us wearing our morning suits and so forth. But that was the import of the hon. gentleman's message and a good import it was. The hon. gentleman from Grand Falls~ Sir, if he wants to earn some spurs and wants the leadership for which he has been seeking for so long of the Tory Party, let him perform in office. And I for one welcome it, Now, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying we had a royal commission report. We had it eiJ;ht years ago and the royal commission- SOHE HON.

MEMBERS: Oh! Oh! HR. ROBERTS: No, I should not say that. No, I will not. HR. SPEAKER: Order. please~ HR. ROBERTS: Thank you. Hr. Speaker. The royal commission report was eight years ago. It is outdated now. There is much useful information in it and much of it is of value still. But their 217

Novemher 20. 1Q7S. Tape 87 Rfl - 2 economic forecasts were good they said in the most for ten years and the ma1ority of them were good only for five vears. So it no longer is a useful guide even to the economic state and prospects, and that was all that they looked at, that commission Hr. Gordon Pushie chaired nine or ten years aRO• a commission which I think did excellent work.

Hell now, Sir, assuming. we should have such an enquiry, such an inquest, a grand inquest into the state of the nation, a grand inquest into the state of the nation - the hon. gentleman may have no plans for the development of this nation, Sir, but other people rlo - therwhy a select committee, whv a select committee? Well, Sir, the royal commission I think have done valuable background work. Many of the men and the women who wrote the reports in this are still in the puhlic service at one place or another. Inn McAllister is in Halifax. He is a professor of economics at Dnlhousie University. Mr.

David Hercer is now a vice-president, a senior vice-president of the Hydro Corporation. Hr. f.d Power is in private employ tn Ottawn. Bert Temple~;n died verv tragically - at the age of what, thirty-six? just a few months a~o. O~e of the men who put this report together, Mr. David Vardy is head of the Priorities and Planning Secretariat, the nrlmlnistratlon. Hiss Susan McCorquodale is of course on the staff of the political science department. These people are available still, most of them, to give a committee their views and their advice and their suggestions.

T think alsP, Sir, that we should have some public input. After all, what is urong with askinr, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador what they think about the future of their Province. I think there is a good thing to be said for getting some M.H.A.s involved as well. After all" this is a political sub1ect. There is nothing more political than the future of this Province and what the govern­ ment of this Province should he doing to try to hring that future about. 218

November 26, 1975. Tape 87 RH - 3 Nothi.n~ should be more political. Nothing would be more appropriate~ Nothing would be more fitting for Newfoundland and Labrador than to have our ~.H.A.s involved in this sort of discussion as opposed to what usually ~oes on in this House. And I am not apportioning blame. That in itself that take us a long time and would~! suspect~ not produce very much agreement. Now, Mr.

Speaker, those are the reasons I put forward for having an enquiry now and for having an enquiry in the form of a Select Committee, a committee which could go throughout the Province much like the Select Committee on the Inshore Fishery which travelled throup;hout the Province, heard briefs. My friend from Fortune·Herrnitage, then a private citizen. presented a very excellent brief to the committee. The Select Committee on the fisheries moved a little too quickly. It was just an election gimmick essentially, or pre­ election gimmick. It was recognized by the fishermen as being such. MR. MORGAN: That is not so.

MR. ROBERTS: No, it is not so. That is why the Tory Party lost almost every fishing district in the Provincet Mr. Speaker. 219

November 26, 1975 Tape No. 88 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker? the - HR. MORGAN: Thev dld not loose Bonavista South! MR. ROBERTS: No~ they did not lose Bonavista South. The people lost Bonavista South but the Tory Party won, Sir* Now, Sir, as I was saying before the bon. gentleman from Bonavista South surfaced again. HR. MORGAN: How ur.dignified! MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, if the bon. gentleman wants to talk about dignity would do well to observe the first rule of the House which is that a member speaking has the right to speak in silence,and the hon. gentleman, Sir, the bon. gentleman from Bonavista South is one of the people who can open his mouth and say very little. I would suggest, Sir, that he keep his mouth closed and learn a lot. Now what is the problem? Just what is the problem facing this province today? What would a committee do? Well I suggest, Mr. Speake~, it would ask questions.

It would ask some of the hard questions that have not been asked and have not been answered in Newfoundland and Labrador, and it would get some answers. It would have a look at unemployment. ah! the great political stand-bv! Everv tmlitician, I sul)pose since nr. Carson and John Kent went at it talked about unemployment and what he was going to do and on and on and on and on and on. Mr. Speaker, the facts show that the unemployment situation in this province is going from bad to worse and worse still.

I have here the official statistics issued by the government for the month of February in the years from 1963 to 1975,showing the labour force, showing the number employed,and the number unemployed,and the unemployment rate for each year in the month of February, the same month the same conditions would obviously apply. February is not a high point in the employment year. Seasonal industries are all shut down in February month. In 1953, Mr. Speaker, there were employed in this province 101,000 people out of a labour force of 107,000, 5.6 per cent unemployment rate.

In 1954, Sir, the unemployment rate dropped to 5.1; the next year 220

November 26, 19i5 Tape No. 88 NM- 2 6.0; the year after.1956, Sir, 6.5; in 1957 the unemployment rate went from 6.5 up to 8.8 per cent. In February 1957, out of a work force of 114,000 people in this province, 10,000 were unemployed, 8.8 per cent. Then, Sir. the work force doubled~ I am sorry,the unemployed doub1ed,the work force did not. The hon. member for Twillingate will remember this because we had a change of administration in Ottawa, we had a Tory Gov~rnment in Ottawa and look what happened in Newfoundland.

Tn 1958 the unemployment rate was 16.7 per cent, the year after 21.5, 18.2, 18.9, 18.3 and in February 1963, Sir, 17.3, the end of the Tory years. Mr. Diefendbaker was dragged from office in April of 1963, Mr. Pierson became Prime Minister, In February,l964 the economy was being stimulated, a labour force of 121.000 people, Mr. Speaker, 108,000 employed, 13,000 unemployed an unemployment rate of 10.7 per cent compared to 17.3 per cent t~e1ve months previously. The year after,l965, 12,4 per cent and then 8.6, 7.7, 9.2, always~ Your Honour will note 1 in the same range.

Then 10.9 per cent in 1969, 9,7 in 1970, 10.9 in February 1971 and when the present administration came into office here, Sir, 10.8 per cent. In February 1972, a fortnight after the hon. gentleman opposite first assumed office, there were 157,000 people in the work force in this province. 140,000 of them were employed in February, 17,000 were tmcmployed. 10 .a per cent unemployment rate. But as ustwl. Sir, Tory times~it climbed to lLB per cent, it climbed to 15.5 per cent, it climbed to 17.6 per cent in 1975 and I am told it will go to 30 per cent in February 1976. MR. MORGAN: 8 per cent 1ational. HR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Sped- -r. the national rate has obviously gone up and down. But the significant thing is the unemployment rate in Ne~foundland has risen always under the Tory Party. I am not saying they have caused it. I am just saying they have presided over it. 221

November 26, 1975 Tape 89 PK - 1 !'1.!:•_.!t£.h~r,;s :_ 17.6 per cent, Sir. last FebruAry, and it would be o brave man who would predict much under 30 per cent, Sir, in this year. My friend from Port au Port di•tr1~t (Mr. EcdCer) tells me that as many as one out of ~o of his constituents are unemployed, and that does not tske into account the labour diAnur- ... .,. A"tt hwever many hundreds and thousands of our people are out of work, out of productive work at any point in time because of a labour-manaRement dispute. Mr. Speaker, the record is dismal.

The work force between February 1972 and February 1975 has increased by 27,000 people. There were 157,000 Newfoundlanders employed- I am sorry, in the work force in February 1972 when the hon. gentleman opposite took office, 184,000 in the work force in February 1975 three years after the present government took office. What happened, Mr. Speaker, what happened with the number employed? 27.000 people had come into the work force. The number employed, Mr. Speaker, rose from 140,000 in February 1972 all the way to 141,000 in February 1975, an increase of 1,000 people employed.

The number unemployed, Sir, ~ent up from 17,000 to 43,000~26,000 more of our fellow Newfoundlanders looking for work. Well, Sir, why is that? Does it have to be? Could we do better than that in Nevfoundland and Labrador or are we condemned to live forever with unemployment rates rarely below 10 per cent in our history as a Province and these last few years climbing steadily 10.8, 11.8, 15.5, 17.6, and what is it this year? 25. It was 20 the most recent figures, 25, 30 per cent when we Ret into the depths of the Winter months. It is one of the questions, Mr.

Speaker, that must be looked at, and I think a Select Committee is the way to do it. Then, Mr. Speaker, we have the gro~ing demand for services, even though much has been done, even though the present administration have done much to improve services in this Province. They had too. They t-1ere spending money. They could not avoid improving services. They have paved 222

November 26, 1975 Tape 89 PK- 2 some roads, ~hey built a few water and sewer systems, They have not opened a hospital bed in four years in office. But they have done some good things, of course they have, and more power to them. They built a Regional College in Corner Brook. The Liberal Party built a university. the Tory Party has built a Regional College nnd that is about aR fair a summation of their approach to things. Hut they have improved services, of course they have. Bu~.

Sir, they have not met the need, and everywhere you go in this Province and everything you hear in this Province is that the need for improved services is not being met. and our people, Sir, our people- not only is the need for services not being met, but the growing expectations are not being met because our expectations are growing and so they should. A few years ago.

Sir, many Newfoundlanders would have been quite content, particularly in the rural areas, the hen. gentleman from Grand Falla (John Lundrigan) would agree,with rather meager services because that was the most they could see, They thought if the day ever came when they got a bit of road to get in and out of their harbour, and maybe a bit of light so they would not have to use an old Delco - and there is only one community left in my constituency now, Hr. Speaker, that has to use a Delco. It is the only community that the Tories won in the whole district of the Straits of Belle Isle.

There is a message in that for somebody, they won it twelve votes to eleven. Mr. Speaker, that was all that people aspired to, a few, you kno·p, a few very bacic services. But now, Mr. Speaker. now. Sir, people expect,and rightly so, water and sewer systems, and adequate housing, and not jnst a bit of road but a good all-weather road, a paved road. and access to all of the public services - medical, educational and every type of servlrc. And the result of this, Mr. Speaker, is that there is today in this Province a growing frustration on the part of our people.

There is a very strong feeling, I do not think as yet a realization, but the frustration is coming because of the gap between the expectations which our people hold and the reality which they perceive. I suppose that is a jargon way to say that much wants more, and I say that our people deserve more. The problem now,As the Premier has told us, and as the Minister of Finance has told us, and as other bon. gentlemen will 223

November 26, 1975 Tape 89 PK - l tell us~is that our economy cannot produce mare. it cannot justify, it cannot pay far more services. The labour disputes, Sir, the labour-management disputes that we have, they are really an example of this frustration. Every M.H.A. has encountered it. Every M.H.A. who moves about and listens at all to people, and thinks about what is on their minds and what their concerns are sees almost an anger, inchoate, inarticulate, but very real. The system just does not seem to be working.

And for twenty- five or twenty-six or twenty-seven years now we have made spectacular progress in the first years of Confederation, the first twenty or so, Ncn·she is slowing down. And so we 224

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 90 Page 1 - mw changed the administration. Obviously it was the dirty Liberals, but they could not do it. We could not do it, and I was proud to he a member of the Liberal administration. Obviously, the people said, "Boy,that is what caused it. The dirty Liberals could not do it. They did not know what to do4 It was their fault things were slowing down:' So now we have had the Progressive Conservatives, our Tory friends, for the last three or four years, and they are not doing it either. And I find, Sir. that more and uore people in this Province are beginning to wonder.

This is not unique to Newfoundland but I think it is more striking here, because we have come so far in so short a space. But not only have we come far, Sir, we want to come further, because our people, Sir, watch the same television as do people across Canada and travel widely and have the same expectations. And a young boy or young girl growing up in Flowers Cove or in Francois expects to have the same kind of life as any Canadian citizen. be he in Toronto or be he in Vancouver or be he anywhere, and ao he should have.

Sir, people are beginning to wonder in this Province whether government as an institution can do the job, and I am not talking about a government of one party or another party or any party. But I find, Sir, that there is a growing cynicism, a very real cynicism growing among our people about r,overnment, about the efficacy of government, about the role government can play.

It is tied up with bhe belief- and I am not suggesting for a moment that people are not concerned with economic issues., 6f course they are- hut with the belief that development at any price is not worth it, that a job in itself is not the only end in life.,that it is no good giving work to 200 or 300 men in Baie Verte if we are poisoning them with a death sentenc0 from asbestosis. That is not the way to develop Newfoundland. Thirty or forty years ago men in St. Lawrence went to work in the mine there, and they could not have cared less, Mr.

Speaker, if they were being poisoned or not they "Were that desperate for a job to feed their familes. But now, Sir, my friend from Burin -Placentia West (Mr. Canning),many of whose constituents are connected with that mine and 225

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 90 Page 2 have families there now find out their feeling 1 and who is to blame them, Sir? Those of us in the House are not required to put our own health at hazard, maybe our reputations, but not our health at hazard to try to make a living. Sir, I find, and 1 do not put this - it is not a matter of Liberal and Tory. I think the change of government, the change from the Liberal administration to a P.

C. administration was a very good thing in that sense, because it showed people that whatever was causing this malaise in our Province today, whatever the cause of the fact the economy was not producing what it should produce, what it has to produce if we are to have what we want and what we feel we need and we feel we are entitled to, but whatever the cause of that it was not the fact that the group of men who sat around that table down on the eighth floor or sat to Your Honour's left here in the this House that it was not just that those group of men belonged to one political party or another, And I think the last four years 2 Mr.

Speaker, have shown that conclusively beyond any shadow of any doubt, Now, Sir, those are some of the questions that a committee could ask. Let us get some answers. Let them send for the officials in the government and say, "What do you think?" We have hild a great galumphing expensive Priorities and Planning Secretariat down there on the seventh floor for the last four years, what have they done? What are they doing? Let us get in the resource experts. We all talk about our fisheries~ a good thing for us to talk about in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, what is the potential of our fisheries?

Your Honour is new to the House. But Your Honour has been interested in public affairs. Some han, members have sat in this House for many years now, My friend from Burin- Placentia West (Mr. Canning) and the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) have been here, with a gap of four years, have been here for twenty-two years now. Has there ever been an estimate made of just what can be done in the fisheries? How many jobs can we get? Oh! we all talk about development. 226

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 90 Page 3 - mw We are on to trout farming now, an idea which the hon~ gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) was on what - five, six years ago. Merrill Menzies, Ralph Hedlin and his crowd in Toronto were commissioned to do a report on that, on fish farming. Maybe there are a few fish that can be farmed or a few farms that can be fished.

Now we are hearing now some more. that the Premier allegedly was overseas talking about joint ventures, joint ventures, putting the European people out off the 200 mile limit and then letting them land their fish here and process it ashore, a good idea. MR. CARTER: That is not new idea. HR. ROBERTS: No, of course, it is not new. It has been fought out 227

November 26, 1q75, Tape 91, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: in this House manv times. Mr, Speaker, how many iohs are there in it? There must he some figures somewhere. Are we iust going ahead like the blind fool staggering ahead, Sir, lurching from one hope to another, one thought to another, or do we have some idea where we are going in this Province? How manv jobs can there be in our fisheries? The Minister of Fisheries is new to his post but he has a deep interest in the fisheries and I hope a deep knowledge of them. It will require an even deeper knowledge~but how many jobs can we create in our fisheries?

I know, Sir, that employment in the fisheries has not increased significantly despite the incredibly large caoital investments that have been made. I venture, and we had a debate here in the House last year, the hon. gentleman's predecessor~ the member for St. John's West (Mr. rrosbie) and I had it back and forth on the figures. But as I recall them, Mr. Speaker, there are fewer people employed today in the fisheries than there were twenty years ago in this Province for all the advances, for all the developments. God knows where we would have been without the developments, probably nobody in the fisheries.

But how many can we get? What about our forestry? Where are we going in the forestry? Twenty years ago - no, it was not twenty, sixteen years, seventeen years ago there was a bloody, and I use that term in its literal sense, there VNis a bloody war fought in Central Newfoundland. The IWA.,. and the real issue in the IWA, the industrial issue as opposed to the issue of who controlled the Province, the elected government or a group within that society • hut the industrial issue was simply would there be a full-time logging force or a part-time logging force.

There were 20,000 loggers part-time in 1959, fhtre are three or four thousand today full-time, highly paid skilled professional men. But there are 16,000 part-time jobs that are no longer there. What future in our forestry, Sir? How many more jobs can we get? A Memorial University professor made a speech out in Gander* was it? - they are always ~oing to Gander to make speeches. They must have a lien on the Hotel Gander by now - Mr. Speaker, wa~ it he said that we can increase our forestry by 15 per cent by introducing new machinery? Or increase our utilization~! guess. I think he said the cut could be 228

November 26, 1975, Tape 91, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: down but lot£> could produce the same volume. But • Sir, how many more lobs could there b~? Can the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture tell rne;what is our potential? We know how many cords of wood we have roughly and we know the ones we can get at. 'S"othing new on that. The Kennedy Commission twenty years ago looked at it, and the Rousseau Commission - no pun on the honourable gentleman's name - looked at it ten years ago, but how many jobs can we create? Let us get some experts in before a House Comrnittef' and ask them; "Mr.

Expert what do you think ~ote can do in the forestry? If we have 20,000 people working now can we get 30,000 people there?" Or are we just bumbling ahead hoping frantically somebody gets an idea, some promoter wanders in with an idea, or somebody around the Cabinet table says; "Boys, why do we not try thts?u Or some constituent says~ "Sir, 1 want some money for that." Or ~orne genius somewhere gets and idea and writes a book or a paper and some­ body hapnens to read it and Says; "Why do we not do that?" What about our minerals? What .1ob Potential have we in our minerals?

The only new mine we have had in the last few years is Daniel's fl<trbour and that is a twenty year old concession come to fruition. The cement plant out in Port au Port has been downed by the economic winds. But what can we do in our minerals? What is our potential in jobs,and what will it cost us in the qualitative factors? Our energy resources: I do not propose to go into the Lower Churchill here • though obviously it is worth at least an hour and-a-half of any members time, but what is the situation with our energy resources?

The real reason we are not going ahead with the Lower Churchill, obviously, is that we cannot sell the power. That is the reason and all else follows from there, just as the Upper Churchill power could not have been developed if Quebec hnd not bought it. It would still be flowin~ unchecked to the sea, and Sir Winston Churchill's design or desire of a great imperinl scheme to put a bridle on those falls would not have come to frult!on. !1avbe it should or it should not • but the fact remains. unless there was a customer it would not and the only possible customer was Quebec Hydro, be it good, bad or indifferent.

MR. BRETT: At two and-a-half mils? 229

November 20. 1975, Tane 91. Page 3 -- apb HR. ROBERTS: Yes. at two and-a-half mils. One could have bought gasoline at three dollars. And the hon. gentleman is so wise in hindsight, Hr. Speaker, the hon, gentleman is so wise,- MR. MORGAN: Fifty yenrs. HR. ROBERTS: let him - Mr. Speaker. his record of development so far, his administration's record of power development is nothing. Zero. And let us see what they come up with. 230

November 26 • i 975 Tape No, 92 IB-1 ~P. SMALLh~on: frune oil then vas a dollar and a quarter a barrel. }'1f'. PO 'AERTS: They nre wise in hindsight. He wHl stack their recorr1 up. Hr, Spenker. AN Hn~L PEl'fBF:R: 1n sixty yean;. l'fR. ~OBERTS: We "'ill st nck their record up. Yes, I hope the hon. r:entleman is nrounrl jn shty years. I hope ~;o, Sir, for his sake if not for ours. And what of the future of areas? l.Jhat about the Burin Pen::lnsu1n? It has heen a very prosperous area but a deep concern dot.--n there now, What is the true situation on the shipyard? The minister has not come clean yet.

There is more there that has not come out. Hltnt about the future of the Hshinp. industry down there? And then w-hat about rhose other p,;rent coasts? Hhat about the Northeast Coast? \-.Ihat future is there'! I believe there is one. Rut \<.flat is the future? The han. memher for LaPoile (l"r. Neary) today in hi.s daily appearance in the .rtuestion period asked about a proposal possibly to cut out some fish plants, And, of course. there is no such proposal. Some of them mny have to be financed socially as opposed to economically becau~e they are nncfn1.

The f::lsh plant in Englee may or may not be nn economic venture, but without the fish plant in F.nglee there is no Enp:lee-to name an area with which both the hon. gentleman who presently represents St. l'fnry's-The Capes (Mr. Carter) and I are fnmilinr. T mean, it may or may not be economic but the almi~hty buck does not rule. Tf Jt does, then we might as well all pack up nnd p.o to Toronto.0r go further ~est to Vancouver somewhere. But, vhat is the future? The government have not stated any plan. They have n0t given the people any information.

Just ":hat can be done? mt.nt is r;rdng to happen in our rural communities? Pore and more as one ~oes into the outharbours,Sir, one is confronted vith the situation that there is nobody in the average, in many of our outhnrbours • not the average one, but many of our smaller communities have nobody olrler than f::lfteen. 1or het~een the ages of fiftN.>n and say, fifty. Think. Hon. gentlemen represent outharbour 231

November 26, 1975 Tape No. 92 TB-2 constituencies. I will bet ilown in St. Nary's-The Capes in many of the communities down there- and it is not an area I know verv well - hut when <t yonnr: man or ,_•oman p,ets to be fifteen or sixteen or seventeen, he or she leaves to f!:O elsewhere, has to to make a l:l.vinp:. Is that the future of onr rural areas? If so, is thnt what we want? !'fust it be? Or can we provic'le a base in a rural area? Not 3,000 ,iobs in four years and most of those temporary in sawmills that are going bnckrupt as quickly as the leaves fall from the trees. t4r. Speaker - AN HON.

ME¥BER: Hhat about tabrador? HR. ROBERTS: Yf's, and that is the next item. Hhat about Labrador"! What about the roast of t.ahrador, that BOO miles that my friend ancl collear,ue, the p.entleman from F.aple Piver (Mr. Strachan) - the seat shou1d have been c~lled the roast of Labrador, that historic name - the ~entleman ~o represents Enp.le Piver and represents it very well,! will thank you, but what is the future of those communities, of Fnx Ilarbnur nnd Williams Harbour and all the way from 1-fary'a Hnrbour north to Nain?

V.'hat about the future of the part of t.nhrador that I represent, Rerl Bay down to I.'Anse-nu-Clair? What nbout the future of the St, Barbe Coast? You know, want to go right :1rntmrl the Province'~ But • whnt is the future? The government have not provided any an~::wet'f'. ~·.,yhe they have none. Pnybe a cmnmittee would find them, but l think, Sir. we should try that committee. They nre old questions that have nev£>r heen answerecl. In our history, ~fr, Speaker, we have nlwrtys lon}:ed panac<:'n!'l. He have always figured that 1ust over the h l l] there was the r,rf'cn anrl 1 ush promisPd 1 ann.

If you go rirht back through, t'r. Speaker - the gentleman from Twillinrate (Mr. Srnnllwood) cnn he much more eloquent than T can nnrf particulnrlv on these thinp,e - hut the railway was the r,reat nnswer when -was it Thorburn put the railw;~y throuph or Whitewav? Sir William Whiteway put the railway through, his administration, and a mighty achievement it was. That was tn be the ;mswer to our prohlem, if you reatl the books of the day or the newspapers of the day. If on 1v the railt;ray got through to S t, Georf!e 's, that was 232

November 26, 1975 Tnpe No. 92 IB-3 the crv, we wnuld open her up. So, we put the railway through. MR. SMALLWOOD: We r,ot r:rnnd Fnl1R. 2-',R. ROBEFTS: And we r,or Granrl Falls and that was the big panacea then. HR. St-fAI.LWOOD: And Buc:hans and Corner Brook. PP.. fl'ORF:fiTS: Pif!ht. But still the unemployment still climbing and then Corner Brook cnme and the hum on the Humber was the next big step fnrwnrP. And then the third mill in Stephenville and the Come By rhance. Then we had the alphabet Roup. ADA, anybody here remember AnA, the Area Development Agency.

It had a brief but inglorious life Jn Ottawa, gave out n feW" millions. Then came FPRD, the Fund for Rural, Economic Development. You could write theses on these and no doubt hon. gentlemen have. Then came AROA which underwent a significant metamorphosis from being the Agricultural Pehabilitation and Development Administration to the Agricultural and Rural Development Administration. Then 233

November 26, 1975 Tape 93 PK - 1 we had DREE. And DREE was going to provide all of our answers. And now DREE have had a menopause.as it were, and have had an agonizing midlife change and are no longer in the infrastructure husiness. The hon. gentlemen can no longer look to DREE to provide the water and sewer systems and the schools. Whatever moves DREE~that mighty mind of DREE in Ottawa there on the Laurier Avenue and the Carlton Building is no longer infrastructure. ~~~Q~ Menopause was your word, Sir. ~--~~~]LRTS: Menopause was my word, and I think it is not a bad one at all.

They have had sort of a change of life and they are no longer as fertile, at least when it comes to shovelling dollars out to the treasury of this Province. They have done a lot in Newfoundland, of course they have, and they have a lot more to do including the Northern Peninsula Highway. which I am delighted to know will continue next year. thanks to Uncle Ottawa. All of those things. Sir, did some good. Some did more good than others, and some could have done more good than they did. They have come and they have gone. Each one was going to be the answer.

And I have not ROne hack to the records of this House but I am sure if I did you could find over the Thirty-Seven General Assemblies that almost every session,or certainly every Assembly, had one great answer to our problems. And some times the answers were achieved and some times they were not, and men strove mightly. The railway now looks insignificant. Who goes by rail no~? You get in your car and drive. The government that put it through, Sir, had courage and vision and foresight. At the time it was a mighty project, and a mighty risk and one as the han. gentleman for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) saya, paid off 1 paid off. But to read of it at the tlme it was going to be Lord - the Opposition of the time said it was Lord Rothermere's private hunting estate. That is what they said at Grand Falls. There would be no town in Grand Falls. Essentially the same things were said about Mr. Shaheen during the debates on the oil refinery at Come By Chance. And n~w, of course. this administration is promising us a second oil refinery when conditions improve. 234

November 26, 1975 Tape 93 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker. now, of course, the great panacea, the one that the Premier and his colleagues have had handed up to them on what they thought was a silver platter until they grasped it and discovered that it was a very hot silver platter vas the Lower ChurchilL That vas going to solve all of our problems. If only we had the Lower Churchill or when we had the Lower Churchill all our problema would be set straight. We would have the perfect land, the Elysian fields would he here on earth, and they would be bounded by the boundaries of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Well, Sir~ we may or may not get the Lower Churchill. I hope we do, but that is another story. The fact remains, Sir, the problem still remains. Unemployment keeps going up. and unemployment is a pretty good measure of the economic performance,of the performance of the economy of this Province. People are becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the quality of life. And then on top of it the government now have to begin to tell us the full story of the economic position of the Province, the financial position of the Province.

We had a singein~ 25 per cent increase in the sales tax and more to come in the next two or three years. So, Mr. Speaker, where do we turn? Do we turn to planning? It used to be the great answer. A few years ago bon. gentlemen opposite, whenever a problem came up said, planning was the answer. MR.~ c~rowzR: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. the Leader of the Opposition permit a question. No,when I am finished I would be delighted to try to answer any question the hon. member for Ferryland (Mr. Power) would care to address afterwards, Let me finish my carefully thought-out notes - if I can only read my writing. Mr.

Speaker, where do we turn? Planning? It was given as an answer. Oh, yes, yes, when we get into office we will plan and we will have priorities,and when we plan there will be money for everything. And, of course, we have now discovered after all of the planning there is not the least evidence that this Province ia any better governed now than 235

November 26, 1975 Tape 93 PK - 3 it has even been in its history. It is no better governed now than when the fishing admirals governed. Taxes are up, unemployment is up. This is a result of planning? Few new jobs. The budget - the first time in history, I suppose, a budget has come in, not just on a deficit, put that aside, hut admitting a $30 million or $40 million, $50 million or $60 million deficit - they only admit $30 million, but it is lacger than that,Your Honour. Little new development. I scratch~d my head briefly today, Mr.

Speaker, to try to think of the new projects that this administration have got going in an industrial development sense. Perhaps the hon. Minister could help me, because I thought of the Daniel's Harbour zine mine and I mark that up. MR._LUNDRIGA.~ I will help you! ~._RQ_B_!':"RTS :. I am sorry. MR. LUNDRIGAN: I will help you! ~-~ ROBERTS: All right, I agree. And certainly the hen. gentleman, Sir, his help is something I can do without.

There ia a light bulb factory'; I believe it iA,going up on the Thorburn Road, thereby adding significantly to the traffic congestion in the western end 1 or that part of the western e:nd of St. John's. Now what else have they done? 236

November 26, 1975 Tape No. 94 NM- 1 They have been in for- four years. We no longer had an Economic Development Department, we had an Industrial Development Department and they are busy as nailers down there. They are located just between the barber shop and the liquor store down on Philip Place. Now what have they done? You know, I am genuinely asking. The man who was the minister, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Doody), is not in the House. He is in Ottawa today doing some good, I have no doubt~ for the cause. But what has happenedt We certainly have not made any progress in unemployment.

We are not even holding our own. We are falling further and further behind. 3,000 jobs they claim in Rural Development and 1 would like to see an auditor go through that. I think that would be worth the cash. It would be worth a lot more cash than the province is going to get back, because most of the money in Rural Development is gone naY and there are no permanent jobs to show for it. 1 am not talking, Sir, about unkept promises. I am not talking about Mr. Ted Sorenson's great industries. He came and he went fishing.

I am not sure if he was fishing for fish or something else, but he promised, the summer of 1972 he "promised" a great number of new industries. I do not know what has happened but they have never come. Well I have The Evening Tele£r~ clippings on the point if the Premier would like to refresh his memory, We heard of an aluminum plant. That is no closer to fruition now than it ever was. We have gone all over the world flogging our wares,as it were, to about every aluminum iudustry in the world~but no aluminum industry.

During the famous by-election in Hermitage we heard a great deal about hardwoods industries down in Bay d'Espoir. The Rallands Plant is not a hardwoods industry in the sense it was described then. There are any numb~r of others. So where do we turn, Hr. Speaker? Where do the people of Newfoundland and Labrador RO? no we just go on the way we are, staggering on every few years, chucking out that crowd and putting in this crowd,and then unemployment going up and everybody trying to scratch their minds to get some public relations devices to try to explain it away,and stagger 237

November 26, 1975 Tape No. 94 NM - 2 through and cook the books in an election year to get over the hump of an election and then put her on for another three or four years and have another great burst of energy and expenditure the year before the election. Is that the way our public life is to develop in this province? That is not why any of us is here. I do not think any member of this House or any of the 150 or 200 people who sought election on September 16 wanted to be in the House to take

part in that sort of public life. Panaceas do not answer, Sir. Any project one can dream of will not in itself solve our problems and most of them will not even come close to it. So where do we go? What do we do? Do we give up? We are not going to give up. If we give up we might as well fold her up now and send the keys to Ottawa and say, there you have got her now boys, and all go our separate ways and the devil take the hindmost. That is completely, I mean nobody, nobody would suggest that. Obviously we go back to our basics.

We have got to look at our resources and our geographic position and our human abilities. But just what can be done? Nobody in the House knows,or nobody in the House has told us. I do not pretend to have all the answers~ but I would like to be on that committee to be able to get, I would like to be able to get the Minister of Fisheries up as a witness. He would not have to be under oath.

I would like him to tell us how many jobs his officials tell him can be created in the fishery. and he can send an expert from here and an expert from there- well most of them~I may add,have been in here over the years, aL least once and some more than once. And I would like to get the Minister of Mines and Energy and let him tell us. The government have been holding the Lower Churchill to themselves like that, clutching it to their ample - AN HON. MEMBER: Bosom? MR. ROBERTS: Well~that is not parliamentary.

To their ample girth as if somehow it was a secret, and yet is is our money~ There is $55 million or $60 million at risk now on the Lower Churchill project. It is our money. We. the people of this province.will have to pay for it and we may have to pay for it in no hospital in Grand Falls, or no 238

November 26, 1975 Tape No. 94 NM - 3 hospital in Salt Pond, Burin. That may be the price ve have to pay for it. Or no decrease in the pupil-teacher ratio. That may be the price we have to pay. What can we make of our resources, Mr. Speaker7 There has never been a statement of what we can achieve in this province, never that t am aware. And while I do not even pretend to know the tenth of what has gone on or what is going on in this province I think t wou~d have heard about it. Somebody would have come in and told ~e. I hear almost everything else these days. What can we build? How many jobs can we develop? And what kind of life can we provide our people? 239

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 95 Page 1 - nn.r What can we do? We are okay as M.B.A.'s. We are all getting our big fat salaries. And when we get flicked out, as all of us will in due course, in the fullness of time~ when we get out we will all be teachers and doctors and lawyers and businessmen, We will do okay. One of the things about this House, Mr. Speaker. is nobody gets in it except people who by and large are well off. And not necessarily well off in dollars, but well off in the social and economic structure. fs that not what happens? HR. ROWE: What am 1 doing here? MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, my colleague from Trinty- Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) is concerned about being well off economically, Actually it is not his concern, Sir, I can venture, it is his bank manager's concern. But, Sir, the people who get in this House tend to be the people who are going to do fairly well. It is the same with the House of Commons in Ottawa~ you know, We all sit and talk about the ordinary people. The gentleman from LaPoile (Hr. Neary) told us yesterday, he represents 99.9 per cent of the people of this Province.

I am not going to say anything :tbout that except~ you know, there is a lot of truth in the fact that whatever an ordinary citizen is. he does not get In this House. We are making out okay. We are the crowd who do ok«y in Newfoundland and Labrador. And if the whole thing goes under, we will he okay. The doctors will get their pound of flesh, because people will be sick and will have to be looked at. The undertakers will get us all in the end anyway. The lawyers will do okay, because even if you are goinf! b:mkrupt you need a lawyer.

The teachers will find a 1ob somehow, There will always be some businessmen who can grub a few cents by buying a pair of socks for $1 and selling them for $1.50 in the name of economic development, We will do okay, HR. SIMMONS: The insurance salesmen will do welL MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the insurance salesmen will df! "Well~ because obviously if we are facing calamity,that is when we need insurance. But, you know, Mr. Speaker, what can we build Jn this Province? We 240

Novemher 26, 1975 Tape no. 95 Page 2 can all say we believe, and 1 think we all do believe. and I am prepared to say we all believe, but what can ve achieve? What can we do? How many jobs can we create? Was Parcival Copes right? I do not think he was. But I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, Parcival Copes' argument is a powerful one and it deserves rebuttal. ls that our fate? Are we condemned to live with 15 per cent and 20 per cent unemployment for the rest nf our politit!al li•tes or for the rest of our natural lives? How long are we going to ~o on just pretending things are okay? They are not okay.

The government have now come crunch up against it. The man and woman who is unemployed is crunch up against it. The Province is coming crunch up against it. People are not going to get the water and sewer systems they have been led to expect, and 1 am not talking about political promises. I am talking about the fact that they know that in this day and age it is not unusual, there is nothing wrong, you are not aspiring to undreamed of heights to have a water and sewer system. It is not much to ask. Twenty years ago nobody except St.

John's and Grand Falls and Corner Brook dreamed of such luxuries.or Harbour Grace and Carbonear and sophisticated places. Most people in Newfoundland now it is not a luxury, it iB a straight necessity. Out in Lewisporte district, they expect it, and why should they not. If they are going to live in Embree and Stanhope and Comfort Cove they have a rig'nt to have decent and adequate public services. Why should not the people on the Burin Peninsula not aspire to a hospital? You know, that is not much to ask for. But can we provide it? And what can we make of our opportunities when we know what they are?

Do we w;mt to be a Rhur valley in Nevfoundland? Do we? If the price of devel; Gment is to have a couple of dozen tong Harbours and three or four Baie Vertes, do we want that? Maybe we do, maybe we do not. I think it is a fair choice to ask people to make. Do we want all to live in urban areas? The Province is becoming urbanized now. Do we want to live in smaller communities? And if so, do we have to pay a price in services? Do we have to do without certain things if we want to live in the rural areas? Good questions, real questions, questions that people deserve 241

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 95 Page 3 to have answered. And above all what kind of way of life do we want in this Province? What kind can we build and what price must ~e pay to build it? We all talk. The Premier is very prone to do this. I certainly have been known to do it. Ah! The Premier need not lift his eyebrows, 1 am not going to take a crack at him, not on this occasion, We all talk about our way of life, and I think we all believe that our way of life is unique and worth preserving.

We all rush out and buy the J!ppk!l .P! flewf_o!lndla_nd, so we should, because they are part of our heritage, and they tell us a lot about ourselves, MR. SMALLWOOD: There is no need to rush out. MR. ROBERTS: Well, no, they rushed in to me. Nelson Oates rushed in today. When people rush in -my colleague, one of my former colleagues, who I will not name. claims to have the most valuable set of the Books of Newfoundland in existence. I would say the hon, gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) has the only set that have not been autographed to him. Mr. Speaker, we talk about our way of life but what do we mean?

I~ it ju~t empty platitudes and _pretty phrases tripping off politicians lips when we look solemnly into the television cameras and do our bit. Sir. the questions which are raised by this motion - and l am really disappointed in the bon. gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan)- I do not mind bickering back and forth. It is part of it, and he is good at it, and twill hope to learn from him, but I am disappointed that he has taken the approach he has~ Sir, to what I put forward ns 242

November 26, 1975. Tape 96 Rl! - 1 very serious motion. And the hon. gentleman, 1 would hope, I would hope was just carried away by the exuberance of the moment, the Joy of being in the House, the celestial blessings of being in the ministry, and above all the ineffable r;race, Sir, of being the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. Sir, the questions which I raise on this motion I consider to be one of great import and great seriousness. The question is not whether we should have a select committee or not. That will be decided by the House in the appropriate way. The real question, I submit, Mr.

Speaker, is Just what are we doing here as M.H.A.s.

Are we going to spend the next two or three or four or five or six or eight months, whatever it is, doing our little housekeeping and being as busy as nailers giving bills first reading and second reading and committee stage and third reading and then some of them a fourth reading and then looking at our estimates and asking our little questions and having our little one-upmanship ~ames and all the things that are part of parliamentary 1He 1.' Is that what we are f!:oing to do? 'When we draw our pay checks, are we going to be told hv the people of this Province, "Well done thou good and faithful servant.'" Or are we ~oing to try to accomplish something a little beyond that.

We are startin~ a new House. This is the first substantive motion to come before the House. The budget debate, the motions have not yet come up, the substantive motions. ~tat are we going to try to achieve as M.H.A.s the next one year, two years, three, four, however long this thirty-seventh general assembly lasts? I think thnt if we set up this committee we can come to grips with some of the bir, ~uestions, some of the great issueS. We can try to set a course for the shi.p of state of this Province. And I say we should do that, Mr. Speaker.

And that is why I bring in this motion, to give us all an opportunity to do so~ I hope, Hr. Speaker, that every member will support this motion, Thank you. MR. SHALLWOOO: Mr. Speaker, I am goin~ to vote for the motion because it - 243

November 2fi, 1975. Tape 96 RH - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, p]e,1se! Order, please! Both hon. gentlemen rose, to my jud~rnent, at the same time. I was to recognize the hon. minister. HR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I never thot1ght that I would ever be ln a position to force Your Honour to make that kind of a judgment.

And I say only because of the fact that I want to get my two cents worth in, I \.muld certainly not have any reluctance at all to how to the hon. gentleman from Twillingate who is a distinguished member of the House for quite some number of yearR and a person that I feel honoured to be able to he assodated with in debate, if not in philosophy and ideology in terms of my political persuasions.

I feel verv humble standinf! here todav, Your Honour, for a number of reasons.Although I have been around the political ball pRrk for a little while, this is a brand new experience for me and I look around me and r see a lot of my colleagues, especially the younger members who have not been in the Hou!';e before and I would like to say to you hon. gentlemen through His Honour, the Speaker. that some of my inexperience in this Assembly will show through quite clearlv as the months and the years progress and hopefully at some point in the future I will develop the kinds of skills and the kinds of sophistication in debate that the Leader of the Opposition has exernnlified over the years. l hone that l can reach the stage where T c:m have the tntellnctual brilliance that he brags about today.

And I hope that us outharbour hovs from the bays reach the level of education and leve1 of development that will enable us to participate in debate in our esteemed assembly as he indicated here today. Your Honour, I , .. ·ould like to say throu~h you, Sir, that I have got no great desire to become one of the great sophisticators and intellectual debaters in this Assembly.

I have a desire to participate in a very humble way-to represent the points of views of the people of Newfoundland to the best of my ability and to be honest and have the integrity and the determination and energy which cnn justify my election to the House. I say to Your Honour, 244

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 97 IB-1 or throu~h Your Honour to the Assembly that I have never in my yearfl, in the few years I wns in the House of Commons in Ottawa, I have never seen nn exaJTiflle of the kinds of personal abuse and the personal interaction th11t th:IA chamber has seen today and has continuen to ~ee over a number of years.

Of all of the debates that I was involved in - and J say to the assistant leader of his party through you, Sir -of all of the debates, at no time did I see the debate in the chamber that 1 was a part of degenerate into the kinds of continuous little personal interactions that you see here. I hope that this chamber today - I have always seen a tremendous repartee 1 if thnt is the word.where you get the cut-and-thrust back and forth across the House and the questions raised, but you do not get the kind of- 1 have not seen that kind of small little personal ttttack. I have seen members stand tnll,.

The opposition leader that T was associated with~who ~s on television last evening, the Leader of the Opposition, Pr. Stanfield in Ottawa,always recognized that he was part of government, with a small 'g'. He was part of the ~overnment process. He had the desire and the need to be - PP.. F. ROWE: A point of order. yrp • SPEAKER: of order. ~. F. POiVE: Order, please~ The hon. gentleman has risen on a point t hrinf! to mind, Y..'r. Speaker, the rule of relevancy in this particular case.

T do not believe the hon. member is being relevant whatsoever to the resolution on the floor of the House of Assembly, and T would ask Your Honour to rule accordingly. ~T. SPF.AKER: The rule of relevancy is frequently n difficult one to observe,! would think,and eQually difficult to enforce. But I would not be :fn n position now to :rule the hon. minister out on grounds of breach of the rule of relevanc.y. In my opinion, he is to date in order. ~. LUNnRTGAN: Now.

I was makin~ the point that I hope that the he~inning of n legislative Assembly here todny, that the real beginning of debate or the continuation of yesterday enables all of us to 245

November 26, 1975 Tape no. 97 IB-2 rPspond to the chAllenge that we hnve in the Province today of reco)!Tl:h:inp: thnt He ,,re n province, a part of Cnnadn with the usual nhundancc rof problem~ in 1975. 1 hope that the !JunUty of debate nnrl the input from thP Opposition recoFmizes thnt they have n contribution to make in tryinp to govern our Province. The Opposition, Mr. Bpenker, will never be accepted ::In 1975 politics as just an ndverse force, a~=; a negntive force, n nestructive force, a critical force.

They must have the responsibility of being able to analyse ~~vernment proposals, government ~ur,gest::lnns, government determinations, mnke th~ir recommendation~. have their input and help the people of the Province with good govern~nt. That is the role an~ that is the kincl of a reason why I vas so rllsappointetf todny. I intended to stand here and compliment the Leader of the Opposition, I had anticipnted that he was going to come up with 11 serious of recommendation~ and ~how us n new front, n new thru~t nnd a new attitude. I nm very disappointed today, and I say so through you.

Sir, to see the lack of qualitv that was ptevalent in the input thnt we sa\.! here todny. A professor friend of mine n few years &RO when 1 wM trying t·ro get an educntion, one of the outport types or ns he said, the outh<~rh~11r types,nt the university wns involved in presenti.n~ nn er;sny to fulfill one of the requirements of his English 200- which I had failed,by the wny. I fai.led my English 200 nt the tTniversity because of my sp~Jling.and the han. leader today reminds me of that fPPl vPry badly about it. In any event, this hon. frientl of mine frnm the untversHy put forward his essay and on the bottom