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November 21, 1995

36th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L027 - Tue 21 Nov 1995 / Mar 21 Nov 1995

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

HIGHWAY SAFETY

MINISTER'S COMMENTS

GARY HERREMA

MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING

JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN

ED REGIER

CHILD CARE

YOUTH EMPLOYMENT PROGRAMS

RED RIBBON CAMPAIGN

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURE

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

COLLEGE OF TEACHERS

ORAL QUESTIONS

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

EDUCATION FINANCING

CLOSURE OF COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES / FERMETURE DE COLLÈGES ET UNIVERSITÉS

JOB CREATION

JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE FOR DISABLED CHILDREN

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

CORRECTIONAL FACILITY EMPLOYEES

TIMMINS AND DISTRICT HOSPITAL

YOUNG OFFENDERS

SATELLITE GAMING

JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN

WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

PETITIONS

QUEEN STREET MENTAL HEALTH CENTRE

MINISTER'S COMMENTS

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

CHILD CARE

SUPPORT FOR POLICE OFFICER

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

CHILD CARE

FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY

COLLEGE OF TEACHERS

CHILD CARE

HIGHWAY SAFETY

LABOUR LEGISLATION

COMMUNITY-BASED JUSTICE OPTIONS

HIGHWAY SAFETY

SEAWAY VALLEY FARMERS' ENERGY CO-OPERATIVE

HIGHWAY SAFETY

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

OPPOSITION DAY

FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY

TIMMINS AND DISTRICT HOSPITAL

The House met at 1332.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

HIGHWAY SAFETY

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): Treacherous: That's how officers of the Ontario Provincial Police described a stretch of the Trans-Canada Highway between Vermilion Bay and Kenora.

I have to ask, what action has the Solicitor General taken to protect the health and safety of the province's police officers in the face of devastating and dangerous cutbacks to road repair and winter maintenance by his colleague the Minister of Transportation?

The men and women of the OPP in the field are concerned and frustrated with this government's lack of concern for their safety and the safety of all who travel our highways.

Let me quote an officer of the OPP Kenora detachment who said:

"Any of the officers will tell you that on the easterly drive to Vermilion Bay none of us feels safe, and we drive there on a regular basis.... Officers are nervous driving that section...it's a treacherous piece of highway no matter how you look at it."

OPP officers tell me that statistics prove that this

section of Highway 17 is one of the worst sections of highway in the country. The fact is that for more than two years citizens, politicians and police officers have been demanding improvement to this stretch of Highway 17, the Trans-Canada Highway.

The Ministry of Transportation upgrading plans are complete and sitting on the minister's desk, yet the death and accident toll continues to mount. My constituents and the men and women of the OPP would like the Solicitor General to explain why his government refuses to invest in their safety.

MINISTER'S COMMENTS

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): Mr Speaker, I am sending to you a copy of a letter which I sent today to the province's Integrity Commissioner. I have asked the commissioner for his opinion on whether the MPP for London North, in her role as minister responsible for women's issues, has contravened the Members' Integrity Act.

I have no choice but to take this action. The member has only replied that an investigation to claims that have been made about her would be a waste of taxpayers' money. The Premier has abdicated his responsibility by refusing to answer questions put to him yesterday by my leader.

The integrity and the credibility of this government is in question. As long as the member's comments go uninvestigated, the public, with good reason, will have to ask whether government actions are being taken in retaliation for political activity or lobbying by government-funded organizations. The air must be cleared on this matter.

GARY HERREMA

Mr Jim Flaherty (Durham Centre): It is with great sorrow that we have learned of the passing of Gary Herrema, the chair of the regional municipality of Durham, at his home on Monday, November 20, 1995, following a valiant battle against cancer.

Mr Herrema, age 57, had held the regional chair's position since December 1980. He was widely acclaimed and respected in government circles for his visionary leadership and forthrightness on issues. He had previously held a succession of public offices, among them mayor of the township of Uxbridge and, prior to regional government, deputy reeve of Scott township and a member of the council of the county of Ontario.

In addition to his numerous regional responsibilities, he was active in many other organizations, having served on the board of GO Transit and on the board of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario. He was a serving member of the Durham Region Police Services Board and was past president of the Association of Counties and Regions of Ontario.

Our deepest sympathies go to his wife, Helen; son Ron and wife Mary Anne; daughter Beth and husband Robin; son Howie and wife Liz; and his five grandchildren.

Gary Herrema was tireless in his lifelong efforts to serve his community, often at great personal cost. He will be sadly missed by his friends and colleagues on regional government, by his many associates in municipal, provincial and federal governments and by the staff of his regional administration.

MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): Would you sign a contract with the Premier of this province after learning how he and his government have treated small business in this province?

In July the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Mr Leach, cancelled 385 construction projects that would have stimulated construction and the building industry and which has effectively put countless small firms out of business. The number of cut housing projects is now even higher. The people who expected to have decent accommodation in these developments include seniors, the disabled and special-needs residents. The minister has provided no alternative to these people.

In the aftermath from these housing cuts, the many businesses in the private sector engaged in these projects have been forced to fire staff and declare bankruptcy. What message does this send to the business people in Ontario? It tells them that the government in Ontario doesn't honour its contracts.

Would you sign a contract with Mike Harris?

His Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Al Leach, has reneged on more than 391 signed contracts. He refuses to negotiate compensation to small businesses affected. He refuses to release undisputed fees earned prior to the cancellations. He refuses to discuss offers to settle. He orders contracted partners to give up right to legal action.

He orders contracted partners to volunteer time to help break contracts and stiff subcontractors. He promises on July 25 in writing to honour contract, reneges on September 15. He displays the attitude, "Sue me. I can afford better lawyers than you can," paid by the taxpayer. He interferes with small business carrying on by confiscating earned fees.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): The member's time has expired.

JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN

Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): This government is hell-bent on making Ontario the Mississippi of the north. It's going to pay for tax breaks for its rich friends come hell or high water, and once again, who do they pick on? Why, among others, the children of our province, with this government's bizarre, wacko proposition that junior kindergarten be made optional across the province of Ontario.

The fact is these people just aren't listening, and they have no intention of listening. They won't listen to people like Joanne van Veen from Welland, who expresses in a letter her outrage about the direction in which Ontario has been heading under this Tory tax-breaks-for-the-rich-friends government since the provincial election -- in particular right now, she says, "the government's plans to make junior kindergarten optional for school boards."

Why, that really has Ms van Veen worried. She indicates that this is going to be disastrous for the future of our province and the welfare of our children, knowing full well the advantages that youngsters have who are involved in junior kindergarten programs. Those statistical data are available to any member of this government who would be so inclined to want to read them.

Joanne Di Vizio of Thorold writes to the Premier -- and we know he doesn't read these letters; he doesn't want to -- "I can't believe the contradictory messages. You want the citizens of Ontario to be harder-working, more self-reliant and more productive. At the same time you indicate your intention to make junior kindergarten programs optional. How shortsighted can you get?"

We ain't seen nothing yet. The worst is yet to come.

ED REGIER

Mr Tom Froese (St Catharines-Brock): I would like to honour the memory of Mr Abraham Regier, better known as Ed, for his lifetime of service to the Niagara region. Ed Regier died recently, on Sunday, November 12, 1995. He was 100 years of age at the time of his death.

Ed emigrated to Canada from Russia when he was 23 years of age. As a young man, he fought for the rights of farmers in the provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario. He eventually settled in the Niagara-on-the-Lake area.

Fifty years ago, the farmers in the Niagara-on-the-Lake area did not feel that their economic investment needs were served by traditional financial institutions, so together Ed and a group of farmers started a cooperative. This cooperative, which initially ran out of Ed's basement, became the Niagara Credit Union. As many in this House know, the Niagara Credit Union now has a network of 14 branches and 63,000 members.

As a former manager of the Virgil branch of the Niagara Credit Union, I got to know at first hand of Ed Regier's tremendous contribution to his community. It is individuals like him we want to honour, people who give of themselves for their communities, people who leave a legacy for all of us.

I wish to express my sincere gratitude to Ed Regier's family and friends for his life and his spirit of entrepreneurship and the service he has left with us.

CHILD CARE

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): Mike Harris has declared war on our children. On Friday, we launched a postcard campaign encouraging parents across Ontario to speak to us so we can deliver a message to Mike Harris to leave child care alone. I've been overwhelmed by the number of people who have contacted my office over the past few days to obtain postcards so they can send a message to the Premier that they want to save regulated, licensed child care in this province.

Since taking office the government has launched an attack on families across the province that rely on regulated child care. They rely on licensed child care to work. They rely on child care to go to school. They rely on child care to give the child advantages they never had. If this government thinks that child care is not related to employment and jobs, they're sadly mistaken. Child care is as critical to jobs and employment as roads and cars to get themselves to work.

But the assault doesn't stop there. Now he's thrown a grenade at the child care industry by threatening to deregulate the child care industry.

Regulations protect our children, protect them from being placed at risk. Regulations ensure that children are cared for by trained staff, ensure that children are not just plunked down in front of a television set. Regulations ensure that child care centres meet fire codes. Regulations guarantee parents that their children are safe and protected from harm.

We've all heard the horror stories of children left in unregulated care. I hope the Premier and his caucus will look --

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Time has expired.

YOUTH EMPLOYMENT PROGRAMS

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): I have here 100 letters from young people and 10 letters from employers urging the government not to cut Jobs Ontario Youth and Futures. Most of these letters are addressed to Premier Harris, but copies were also sent to me. I was deeply moved by these letters, which tell of a chance to acquire real employment skills, not the make-work associated with Tory workfare programs, a real job and a real future instead of a bleak deadend job or welfare.

I understand that the Minister of Education and Training is currently reviewing funding for Ontario Training and Adjustment Board youth employment programs. Before any decision is made, I believe that ministers of cabinet should all have the opportunity to read these letters. I will be sending them to the Minister of Education and I ask that he share them with his cabinet colleagues. Before I do so, however, I would like to quote from two of the letters.

From a young woman who got a permanent job in the music industry after her Futures placement:

"I honestly feel that without Futures, I would not be as far along in my career as I am now."

Here's what an employer said in a letter to the Youth Employment Service:

"The Futures program is the only decent thing for a small independent business that the government has to offer. Everyone wins.... I can understand if something is not working, you get rid of it, but when it's working and to such a successful extent for so many people, why would you stop?"

Indeed, we ask, why indeed would you stop?

RED RIBBON CAMPAIGN

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel): I would like to inform the members of the House that today is the national launch of MADD's Red Ribbon Campaign. I was proud this morning to represent the government at the official launch of this year's campaign.

Now in its seventh year, the Red Ribbon Campaign has spread throughout the country. Mothers Against Drunk Driving has done an exceptional job in bringing together community and corporate partners. Wherever we go, we will see red ribbons flying on our cars, trucks and even snowmobiles. The simple act of tying a red ribbon on to your car aerial says drinking and driving won't be condoned by our community.

The Ministry of the Attorney General has had a long-standing relationship with MADD Canada. We respect and appreciate the work these volunteers do for the victims of drunk drivers. Together we have achieved significant progress in reducing impaired driving since the mid-1980s, but we still have more work to do. Every year, drinking and driving costs Ontarians $1.3 billion in personal financial loss, medical expenses and property damage, but no amount of money can measure the tragedy and suffering imposed on the innocent victims of this crime.

We are committed to implementing new measures that will further reduce impaired driving in our province. For example, we have recently announced an administrative licence suspension program that will be introduced in Ontario within the next six to 12 months. These measures send a clear message that drinking and driving in Ontario will not be tolerated.

I'd like to thank all of those involved in this year's Red Ribbon Campaign: the MADD Canada organizers, community action groups, the police, corporate sponsors, and of course all of the people who choose to fly a red ribbon.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURE

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Yesterday, the member for Windsor-Riverside (Mr Cooke) rose on a point of order about our practice respecting the referral of supplementary questions. The point of order arose out of some confusion that occurred during question period. In the first instance, the member for Riverdale (Ms Churley) asked a question of the Premier, who gave an answer. When the supplementary was asked, the Premier chose to redirect it to the Minister of Community and Social Services. Members will recall that I allowed the referral at the time and subsequently agreed to check our practice.

In doing so, I noted that on February 9, 1987, Speaker Edighoffer delivered a clear ruling on this very matter. Speaker Edighoffer indicated at that time that he had examined the past practices of this House and went on to say:

"Having done so, it appears to me very clear that redirecting a supplementary question is an accepted practice in this chamber and it seems to me to be well within the bounds of logic which guides our question period. The right to redirect belongs to the minister and not to the questioner. This has been borne out in reviewing Speaker Turner's rulings of 1981 to 1984."

I want to emphasize this last point because I believe it may be the source of yesterday's confusion. Our practice and indeed, as Speaker Edighoffer noted, "the logic which guides our question period" support the principle that the minister has the right to redirect a supplementary question; however, our practice is equally clear that the member asking the question does not have the same prerogative.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

COLLEGE OF TEACHERS

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): Today I'm very pleased to announce another reform to our education system that speaks to the public's request for professional accountability and quality in our public service. This important initiative will ensure that the teaching profession will be fully accountable to the public it serves.

Our government will be introducing legislation which will enable us to proceed with the development of an Ontario College of Teachers. Teaching is a public trust. This initiative is designed for teachers, but it is also for our taxpayers and students. All partners in our system must have the knowledge that there are supports in place so that educators can continue to be as current as possible in classrooms and in leadership roles in education.

An independent college of teachers will ensure excellence in teaching and improve accountability, as well as confidence, in the public education system.

This initiative is part of our strategy to provide Ontario's students with the most professional, accountable, effective, high-quality education system in Canada. It's part of our vision that includes secondary school reform and other measures which I intend to announce shortly.

The proposed structure and mandate of the college is consistent with other professional, self-regulating bodies, such as those for nurses, doctors, lawyers and chartered accountants. The college will set out clear standards of practice and a framework of career-long professional learning for teachers. It will create and monitor standards for teachers and improve teacher education.

An Ontario College of Teachers will enable teachers to govern their own profession. It will give teachers more say in defining and controlling their professional conduct and practice.

Through the college, parents, students and taxpayers will know what standards of performance to expect from teachers and how teachers pursue their own professional development.

Accountability will also be enhanced by the requirement for public representation on the college's governing council and all committees, as well as by regular reporting to the minister and college members.

In addition, the Ontario College of Teachers will provide leadership and quality control in the development of teacher training programs to meet the changing needs of our society and the high demands of the profession.

Excellence in teaching is key to excellence in education. Today, we're taking another positive step forward towards that excellence and towards a better future for the teachers, taxpayers and students of Ontario.

Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): I'm pleased to respond to the Minister of Education and Training's announcement today on the College of Teachers implementation task force report. I'm pleased that the minister is finally responding officially to this report, since I had previously asked him about his priorities, whereupon he stated that he felt the quality of education was indeed his priority.

I too feel that we should focus on the quality of education and that the best way we can ensure that students are receiving the highest standard is to help prepare our teachers as well as possible and to provide them support with significant in-service training throughout their careers. That, to my mind, is the raison d'être of a college for teachers.

This college should be designated to provide the support structure teachers need and deserve. The college should also be responsible for maintaining a universal standard of teaching in every region of the province and across every school board.

I'm aware that all three parties had supported the creation of a College of Teachers. In addition, I've been meeting with a variety of teachers' organizations and federations about the concept of an Ontario College of Teachers, and my understanding is that a number of concerns have been raised, including the cost, the need for the creation of yet another bureaucracy at this time, the composition of the membership and, in particular, the representation of the publicly appointed members to the college's governing council.

But I was pleased to see that the minister said in his statement that this will enable teachers "to govern their own profession. It will give teachers more say in defining and controlling their professional conduct and practice." This is a concern of many of the teachers' federations I have spoken to.

There should be an opportunity, therefore, for those who have concerns about how this college is to be set up to be able to make their representations to the government when legislation comes forward.

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): I would like to bring to the attention of the minister once again, as I did a number of months ago when we came to the implementation committee in terms of the College of Teachers, that there was no representation from the north, and I've heard that from a good number of teachers, who are very interested not only in the education of northern students but in the education of students across the province. I would like to bring that concern again to the attention of the minister.

This announcement today has a number of very catchy phrases: "excellence in teaching" -- where have we heard that before? -- "career-long professional learning," "improve accountability," "create and monitor standards for teachers," "improve teachers' education," and the one I like, "govern their own profession." That's a good number of catchy phrases, Mr Minister, but they too want representation when it comes to building a committee, when it comes to representation on such a committee.

But I do think the bottom line in terms of any College of Teachers, in terms of anything to regulate teaching, is the students in the classroom. Minister, I have to ask you to pay particular attention to what this is going to do for the quality of education for those people to whom it means most: the students in the classroom.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I want to echo the words of my two colleagues who have cautioned the Minister of Education to move with a good deal of care in this regard, taking into account the representations that have been made to the ministry.

Both the member for Ottawa Centre and the member for Kenora have appropriately pointed out how best a policy can be implemented with a good deal of consultation with others. We don't want to make any mistakes in the implementation of this policy. We don't want to see the government moving forward only to have to step back from it after some time, either because of the cost of the implementation of this policy or because of the makeup, eventually, of the college.

I think the minister would be extremely wise to listen with a good deal of care to the cautions that have been expressed by the member for Ottawa Centre and the member for Kenora. While the minister is doing that, I would also ask that he speak to the Minister of Health about an MRI for St Catharines.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I'd like to join my colleagues in responding to the statement of the Minister of Education and Training. As the minister indicated, the Hall-Dennis report over two decades ago already had recommended such a college, and the Royal Commission on Learning that was established by the previous government also recommended such a college to give teachers control over their own profession.

I'd like to commend the former minister, the member for Windsor-Riverside, for taking the initiative to establish an implementation committee to look at how the recommendations of the royal commission might be proceeded with. I'm happy now that the minister is responding to the report of the implementation committee.

What is particularly interesting and important to recognize is that the proposal of the implementation committee is that the College of Teachers should have control over the curriculum and training provided at and for faculties of education in Ontario. I think that's a very important step in terms of ensuring that teachers have control over the training of their profession.

The college also will have control over in-service training and ongoing professional development of teachers so they can keep up with new developments in pedagogy and with the technologies and needs of students and our society, and how to ensure that in the classroom and outside it students are receiving the best possible education. It will also ensure that there is proper accountability and that teachers have a significant say in the board of governors.

I'm pleased to see that the implementation committee did not recommend formal recertification every five years, and I'm happy that the minister is not responding in a way that would have emphasized that.

I would also say clearly, though, that our caucus will request that the legislation, if it passes second reading in this House, will then be referred to committee to ensure that all the affiliates of the Ontario Teachers' Federation, along with other interested parties, will be able to bring to the committee their concerns, concerns related to the cost, the composition of the governing council, the numbers of teachers involved, the geographic representation on the council, and the working of the college with regard to ongoing professional development and what that will mean for individual teachers and for education in Ontario.

With that in mind, we look forward to the debate on the legislation.

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): I'm very pleased to join my colleague in congratulating the minister in bringing forward this policy statement from the government.

I think what's most important today is that, as the minister and the critics have said, we have had public consultation. The Hall-Dennis report recommended this. I believe it was also recommended in the 1970s. It was proposed by a previous Minister of Education, Bette Stephenson, although the proposal she put forward was destined for destruction because of interference with the labour representation of teachers at that time. Then we had the Royal Commission on Learning, and now we've had the implementation team that has also consulted.

So I'm not quite as concerned as perhaps the Liberals, who now seem to be expressing their concern about more consultation. I think what the public is looking for now and what parents are looking for now is that there actually be concrete steps and that there be action taken.

I want to encourage the minister to get the legislation into the House and to encourage his House leader to

schedule the legislation for second reading so we can get that legislation out to committee so this actually happens and becomes law for next spring. There's a lot of misinformation being passed around about a potential college, and a lot of that misinformation will be corrected once the legislation is in the House.

I want to finish by making one point. There will continue to be lots of controversy around the makeup of the council. I think we've got lots of experience and precedents in this place, with councils, with health disciplines legislation, and it's absolutely essential that the public interest be protected on the makeup of that council. That means there has to be significant public representation, and I think the proposal from the implementation team is a proper proposal that protects the teachers --

The Speaker: Time has expired.

ORAL QUESTIONS

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Minister of Finance. I understand that during the recent Ontario Hospital Association's annual convention, the colleague of the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Health, said publicly that he favours stable funding, which I would interpret to mean a freeze in transfer payments to our hospitals. Minister, do you agree with the Minister of Health that transfer payments to hospitals should be frozen at current levels?

Hon Ernie L. Eves (Deputy Premier, Minister of Finance and Government House Leader): I think that question is more appropriately referred to the Minister of Health.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): What I said to the Ontario Hospital Association is that we understand its request to government for stable funding, and I said we would try and respect that request for stable funding. We didn't say anything about the level of transfers. They wanted stable and predictable funding, which I believe is the policy that we should try and provide.

The honourable member should be aware that to prime the pump for these restructurings, millions of dollars are needed up front in new capital in order to move forward with these restructurings. We have been talking very seriously with the hospital association and there are no illusions on their side. They fully understand that we have to find some dollars in order to reinvest that money to prime the pump and get moving on some of these restructurings, which I think all three provincial parties agree are long overdue in this province.

Mrs McLeod: It's apparent, due to the fact that the Minister of Finance was not prepared to respond to the question and referred it back to the Minister of Health, that the Minister of Health unfortunately does not have the support of his very significant colleagues in his apparent interest in stable funding for our health care system and in particular for our hospitals.

I'm further confused about this government's commitment when I hear the Minister of Health himself say that stable funding has absolutely nothing to do, in his understanding, with transfer payments to hospitals. Minister, what on earth do you mean by "stable funding" if it has nothing to do with the level of funding you will provide to our hospitals next week?

Hon Mr Wilson: I think the honourable member will want to take a read of my first response. Clearly, the hospital association asked all three parties prior to the election and during the election, and now that we're the government they're asking the government, for stable and predictable funding. Their request is that when the level of transfers is set, we let them know for as long a period of time as possible what the funding levels will be. That's what they mean by stable and predictable funding. They prefer us to tell them two and three years at a time.

That is something we are trying to do as a government, to ensure that that sector can restructure properly and with some security; that there won't be surprises, because it has been a number of years since a Finance Minister in this province has actually hit the targets he told the transfer payment partners he would hit. We don't want to be like other governments; we want to truly live up to stable and predictable funding and not miss our targets. We're trying to put this all together in a responsible way so there won't be surprises in years two and three.

Mrs McLeod: There were questions asked before the election about stable funding, and we certainly committed as a party to stable funding, as the party opposite did. We were very clear on what stable funding meant when it came to hospitals. It meant there would be a freeze in transfer payments in each of the next four years.

Subsequently, in the election campaign, the party opposite that now forms the government made a very clear, very simple, very straightforward commitment to the people of Ontario when they said there would be no cuts to health care. I think we have to establish the fact very clearly that for people who need health care services a cut next week to hospitals is a cut to the health care they need.

I am concerned because we hear the media reports that transfer payments to hospitals are indeed going to be reduced when we see the expenditure statement next week. We're concerned about the fact that the Minister of Health, the Minister of Finance and the Premier himself have refused to sign a very simple pledge reaffirming their commitment that there would be no health care cuts.

I want this minister today to clear the air, to reassure the public that they are committed to no cuts to health care, which means, surely, no cuts to our hospital budgets. Minister, will you make that clear and simple commitment today and end the confusion?

Hon Mr Wilson: I find the honourable member's comments passing strange, because I've read through the red book, the Liberals' campaign document. Our party today is spending $17.4 billion on health care --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Order.

Hon Mr Wilson: I've already answered the "stable and predictable funding" part. What the people of Ontario want to do and what the Ontario Hospital Association wants to do is read pages 30 and 38 of your red book, which said that you are only committing to a $17-billion funding envelope for health care in this province. Perhaps your "stable funding" meant you were going to take $400 million out of mental health, $400 million out of hospitals, $400 million out of dialysis and long-term community services.

Our commitment to health care, on a dollar-per-dollar basis, is far more significant than you committed to the people of this province.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The question has been answered.

Mrs McLeod: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: If the government would like to use others' commitments as a reference point in this House, I would ask him not to misrepresent those commitments. The commitment made by our party during that election campaign was very clear that --

The Speaker: That is not a point of order.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I'd appreciate a little bit of decorum in this Legislature. Thank you. The leader of the official opposition has the floor.

Mrs McLeod: In any event, I'm only asking the government about its commitments. The question was quite simple.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): I will then make my second question to the Minister of Education and Training.

Minister, your government has rather clearly signalled, unlike the Ministry of Health, that when it brings down its economic statement next week, it intends to make very significant cuts to post-secondary education. I think it's fair to say that students across this province are increasingly concerned about what these cuts are going to mean to them and whether, as a result of your cuts to universities and colleges next week, they're going to be facing massive increases in tuition.

I think it's important that we understand what this government is proposing to do. They're talking about slashing funds for education, for colleges and universities, in order to provide that tax cut next spring for the most well-to-do in this province and it is going to be paid for by students and by their families. It seems that this government is prepared to actually wash its hands of any responsibility for the impact of its tax cut and the cuts to colleges and universities on tuition fees for students.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Put your question, please.

Mrs McLeod: They are going to do that by something called deregulation or partial deregulation. So my question is a very simple one to the minister: Could you please explain to us and to students across this province what you mean by "partial deregulation" and what impact that will have on tuition fees for students?

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): To the Leader of the Opposition, I'd like to assure the member that this government is committed to ensuring two things: one, that we have the highest quality of post-secondary education in the province of Ontario of anyplace in the world, and secondly, that we have the opportunity for all people who qualify to go to those institutions in the future. That's why we're exploring support systems for students in the province and that's why we're working with our partners in the colleges and the universities across Ontario to make sure that those institutions are both viable and of the best possible quality.

Mrs McLeod: I didn't hear any response to a question about partial deregulation or the effect it will have on tuition for students. The question that I'm asking the minister today is about who pays. It's quite a simple question and I'm going to ask it as simply and in as straightforward a manner as I can.

There is another document besides the campaign document of the party that now forms the government and that's a document that was published in October 1992, a document called New Directions, Volume Two: A Blueprint for Learning. In that document, it says very clearly that tuition fees should pay for approximately 25% of the cost of a college or university education.

I ask you, Minister, is that the benchmark that you currently are using? Is it still your party's position that 25% is a reasonable share for students to pay for the cost of their education? Could you also tell me, if that is your benchmark, if you do go ahead with deregulation or partial deregulation and leave the decision about tuition up to colleges and universities, how you intend to ensure that students' tuitions aren't going to go up much higher and they'll be paying much more than that 25% benchmark?

Hon Mr Snobelen: Let me assure the Leader of the Opposition that this party is very committed to ensuring that the support systems for students in this province allow for those who are qualified to go to a college or university and that those university or college programs are of the highest quality possible. Of course we'll work with those institutions on the proper regulatory system for tuitions across the province that meets the needs of the institutions, the needs of the students and the broader needs of the taxpayers and people of Ontario.

I should say that that'll be consistent with, if I remember correctly, page 46 of the red book, wherein the leader's party said, and I quote --

Interjections.

Hon Mr Snobelen: If I can quote from this document, it says, "Students should pay a fair and appropriate share of the costs of their post-secondary education." We certainly concur with that.

Mrs McLeod: There is nothing I would like better than to be able to fulfil my commitments to the people of this province, but unfortunately it's the government's commitments that are at issue today, and the government's commitment to that "fair and reasonable share" that the minister has just suggested we all believe in.

The government's commitment supposedly was that a fair and reasonable share for students was 25% of the cost of a college or university education. That's the bottom line. The bottom line is, who pays, how much and who's responsible for deciding who should pay? The bottom line for students and their families, Minister, is whether or not a university or college education is going to be within their financial reach in the province of Ontario.

The bottom line is that if you make drastic cuts to colleges and universities' funding and you deregulate and let the universities and colleges decide whether or not they're going to cover the cost of those cuts with tuition increases, students are going to pay the price of your cuts; students and their families are going to pay for the tax cut that you want to give to the most well-to-do people in this province. That's the bottom line.

You said 25% was a fair and reasonable share -- at least, in 1992 you said it was. Stats Canada says that students in Ontario now are paying 26.2% of the cost of their college and university education. That's more than what you once considered to be a fair and reasonable share of 25%. So if students are already paying more than what you consider to be a fair and reasonable share, how can you justify making students and their families pay for your income tax cut?

Hon Mr Snobelen: I believe I've taken a fair try at answering that question. I believe it's important that we work as a government with the institutions that are directly affected in the province: the colleges and the universities. The people across this province know that a substantial amount of post-secondary education costs are borne by taxpayers. That's certainly been a long tradition in Ontario, and the question is, what ratio should it be?

I also want to point out to the member opposite that this government has the responsibility for preparing young people for the future. It also has the responsibility for preparing that future for our young people, of directing investment to this province, of creating the vitality in our economy that's necessary so that those students, when they get out of college or university, have a job and a career and a place to build a family, and that's part of our responsibility as a government.

CLOSURE OF COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES / FERMETURE DE COLLÈGES ET UNIVERSITÉS

Mr Bob Rae (York South): We all know for a fact that the Minister of Education and Training is the only Conservative minister who's in favour of stable funding. But that's because he's in the business of training horses.

My question is to the minister responsible for francophone affairs. I was somewhat surprised yesterday when I read my weekly copy of L'Express, the weekly newspaper in the French community in Toronto, which features an exclusive interview with the minister responsible for francophone affairs.

At the end of the interview he is quoted as saying, and it's a direct quotation -- I'll read it in French and than translate it: «Il y même des collèges et des universités qui devront fermer. Mais la fermeture d'universités ne nous (les francophones) touchera pas, on n'en a pas !»

The translation of that would be, and it's directly in quotation marks; it's not attributed or anything: "There are even colleges and universities which will have to close, but the shutdown of universities will not touch the francophone community because we don't have any universities."

Now, I'd like to ask the minister of francophone affairs -- it's a rather extraordinary quotation -- can he tell us why he would have made such a statement?

Hon Noble Villeneuve (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, minister responsible for francophone affairs): I will refer this to the honourable Minister of Education as it does not touch my ministry.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Order. The question has been referred.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I don't know whether you're interested in hearing the answer or not, but if you are, I wish you would listen. Minister.

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): I must say that although there were lots of groans in this House I enjoyed that ray of humour. But enough of the horsing around.

I want to assure the honourable member that this government has absolutely no plans at this point in time to close any universities. Certainly that would be a responsibility of the universities, not this government.

Mr Rae: To sacrifice your colleagues for your own life is truly noble indeed.

I wonder if I might ask the minister -- this is one of his colleagues, the minister responsible for francophone affairs. I'm not making up this quotation; it's contained directly in an interview. I presume the person who made the interview has the tape of what the minister said, and your cabinet colleague says very directly, "There are even colleges and universities which will have to close." That's directly what he said.

Why would a minister of the crown, who's participated in a series of cabinet discussions --

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): He's been around here for a few years.

Mr Rae: -- who's been around and is a person of great experience, why would he have made such a comment if it were not true?

Hon Mr Snobelen: In response to the question from the member, again I have no knowledge of any colleges or universities that intend to close in the province of Ontario. Of course those are autonomous organizations, but I have received no information that they would have.

Mr Rae: Mr Speaker, we're in a somewhat difficult situation, in that the minister who made the comment has refused to answer the question. But I can assure him there will come other opportunities for him to answer, and I suggest he enjoy the next 40 minutes of peace in this chamber.

But what I would ask his colleague is, can you therefore provide no explanation as to why one of your colleagues would have made such a comment?

Hon Mr Snobelen: In answer to the honourable member's question, having recently been new to this chamber I have only recently had the experience of reading some of my own comments in the media and I'm not sure that I've been able to explain those quite well. So I will not answer as to whether those comments are accurately reflected or in fact what speculation might have been going on.

JOB CREATION

Mr Bob Rae (York South): My question is to the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism, who made a statement the other day in the House where he said that government had no role in the creation of jobs. The University of Toronto has a computer-simulated model of the economy called the Focus model, which I'm sure the minister is familiar with. Every $1 million worth of tax cuts creates about 14 jobs, while about $1 million in capital spending by the government creates about 21 jobs. Those numbers are backed up by independent analysts, by bank computers and others that I'm sure your ministry is familiar with since all people in the government use them.

In light of that, I'd like to ask the minister why he would make such a statement as to suggest that the government, in its capital investment, in its research investment, in its support for the social and economic capital of the province does not in fact have a constructive role in creating jobs, and why he's placing all his emphasis on tax cuts?

Hon William Saunderson (Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism): I'm very happy to respond to the leader of the third party. I happen to believe, and my party believes, that government does not create jobs; the private sector creates the jobs. I would just like to read a quotation from the leader of the third party who said, back on September 24 -- now that he is making quotes up for me, I'll just quote on him.

Interjections.

Hon Mr Saunderson: Well, that's fair. The quotation is this: "I know that there are some difficult things to be done, so there's no point in my going into the House and pretending there aren't difficult things to be done." Well, Mr Speaker, let me tell you, there are --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Order. Would the minister wind up his answer, please.

Hon Mr Saunderson: It's taking quite a long time to get this answer done. What we want to do is create the climate for good jobs. But I might say that I don't believe that handouts to businesses make much sense. I'd like to name just a few of the wonderful handouts that were given by the previous government. Can you believe they gave $1 million to Mövenpick Restaurants of Switzerland? To Kaufman Footwear, $1.5 million? But now we have more unemployment than we've had in the last five years. I'm happy to say it's changing.

Mr Rae: I'm wounded but I'll rise again. What I might ask the minister to do is to try to answer the question, and that is this: I put to him a very simple proposition, and that is that the overwhelming evidence of economic analysts is that capital investment by government does in fact create jobs; just ask the construction workers who used to work on the subway and who are laid off. They know that it creates jobs. The question --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Rae: It's very hard in this very turbulent atmosphere to be heard. But I wonder, if I might just say to the minister, the evidence is that an income tax cut in and of itself creates fewer jobs than the jobs that you are losing by all the cuts you're bringing in. That's the overwhelming evidence of what's taking place. That's the evidence; that's the view of the professional economists out there.

I'm simply asking the minister, why is he putting so much faith in the income tax cuts when the overall effect of all the other cuts that they're making is going to displace jobs rather than create jobs?

Hon Mr Saunderson: We're not only putting faith in the income tax cuts, but we're putting faith in a lot of other things, such as a reduction of the Workers' Compensation Board premium. I'd like to add as well that the Canadian Labour Congress's senior economist --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Would the House come to order, please. I can hear my phone ringing already.

Hon Mr Saunderson: I can well imagine why the noise is coming from the other side of the House, because our message is so good.

I would just like to quote from the Canadian Labour Congress senior economist Kevin Hayes, who says in the Globe and Mail on October 18 that the declining purchasing power is undermining the ability of consumers to help spend the economy out of its lethargy. There's this theory floating around that you can somehow have an economic recovery without improving the incomes of workers, he said, but it's impossible. That's why the tax cut.

Mr Rae: There are tax cuts and there are tax cuts. Ordinary people making less than $40,000 will be getting a very minimal tax cut on a net basis, and those making more than $40,000 will be getting the lion's share. So Mr Jackson is not going to be of any help to you.

You've cancelled JumpStart; that's 10,000 jobs. You've cancelled the subway; that's 2,300 new jobs. You've cancelled all those projects which you announced two weeks ago. I'd like to ask you, now that you've had two weeks since you made your announcement with respect to the cancellation of all the projects that were cancelled two weeks ago, can you now tell us how many jobs this will cost the province of Ontario?

Hon Mr Saunderson: I'd just like to tell the leader of the third party that in September and October, 27,000 new jobs had been created. I think that speaks for itself.

JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN

Can the minister outline for the members of the Legislature here today what savings his government intends to save as a result of reverting junior kindergarten to an optional basis, and how does he intend to redirect those savings to improve early childhood learning?

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): As I'm sure the honourable member opposite knows, in the Common Sense Revolution this government made a very, very clear promise to the people of Ontario. In regard to junior kindergarten, that promise is explicit. We said that we would make junior kindergarten optional for school boards across the province and we said we would review the application of junior kindergarten to come up with the best options for Ontario.

Mr Patten: If the minister thinks that he can cut a bit at the top end and a bit at the bottom end in order to find savings without impacting on the quality of education, I think he's mistaken. The minister continues to talk about value for dollar and affordability. The only issue of affordability is whether Ontario can afford the types of drastic cuts to education that it appears this government is planning.

As the minister knows, early childhood learning gives children a head start and improves the rate of success throughout their education, and indeed into the workplace. Students stay in school longer, have improved reading, math and language skills and a greater chance for further employment, but most significant is the positive impact it has on disadvantaged children.

There is no question that improvements can be and should be made in Ontario's education system. However, my question is, when will the minister start treating educational reforms as educational reforms and not as economic reforms?

Hon Mr Snobelen: I believe that by inference the honourable member opposite is suggesting that the boards of education, that the members of the boards of education across the province of Ontario, that the directors of education, that educators across the province and parents, local area parents and local taxpayers, are not able to make choices around junior kindergarten themselves, that they need Queen's Park to dictate this policy to them.

I believe that the boards of education understand the needs of the young people in those communities, and this government trusts them to make the right decisions. That's why we're making it a local option.

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE FOR DISABLED CHILDREN

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Order. The member for Oriole is out of order.

Mr Cooke: Minister, when social assistance benefits were cut by your government, there was no provision to protect families with disabled children. If a family is in receipt of social assistance and there is a disabled adult, the benefits are not cut. If, however, the family has a disabled child, the benefits are cut 22%, despite your government's election commitment that the disabled would not be affected.

When this question has been asked in the House before, you've talked about such programs as the handicapped children's benefits and special services at home, but the minister knows that those programs are specific for the needs of those children and their physical disabilities that they need that support for. There is a difference in your approach. If you're a disabled adult, your social assistance rates aren't cut. If you're in a family and you're a disabled child, the rates are cut. Can the minister explain why there's this discrepancy and why he has broken their election promise?

Hon David H. Tsubouchi (Minister of Community and Social Services): It's very clear that there's a real lack of understanding of what got us into this problem in the first place, and unfortunately people don't want to recognize the dirty laundry that's delivered back to their own doorsteps here.

I will deal with this question in a second, but I want to start with this: It's pretty evident right now from the third party itself that they believe that the welfare system wasn't working at the time they were in government and they had huge problems to begin with. My predecessor, Mr Silipo, has indicated that the welfare system in Ontario simply doesn't work any more. It's an expensive, inefficient system that hasn't kept pace with the changing needs of the people of Ontario.

I'm not denying that there are some difficulties out there right now, but on the other hand, we only have an opportunity right now, as a government, as a province, to save this province from this huge problem we have.

I thank the member for certainly mentioning a couple of programs that really are of benefit to disabled children: special services at home and handicapped benefits as well.

Mr Cooke: The minister can get up now that he's constantly getting his coaching from a $1,200-a-day consultant. The fact is, it's not just the members of the opposition parties who have this concern for disabled children. You have letters, and I've got two of them from your own caucus members.

The last one that we've got is a copy of a letter that was sent on October 24 from Lillian Ross, Hamilton West. In that letter she wrote, "I would like your officials to examine the issues raised in Wendy's letter and ensure that we are living up to our election commitment and not cutting assistance to the disabled and their families." Obviously, your own caucus understands that you're breaking an election commitment.

Mrs Johns, also a member of your caucus, wrote a letter that states, "The cuts in family benefits and general welfare are not supposed to affect the disabled or the elderly, but they are going to affect disabled children," and refers to a case in her constituency.

I'll send these two letters over to the minister, but I'd like to ask the minister, instead of standing up and giving these smart-aleck answers, what is he prepared to do for the disabled children whom he's cut and who are suffering as a result of his actions?

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: These are not what the member opposite would categorize as smart-aleck answers. Unfortunately, the member opposite is failing to recognize the fact that they've caused a huge problem -- your government particularly. You cannot deny the problems we've been left with.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Order. The member for Oriole is out of order again.

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: I can only say one thing to you: On welfare over the last 10 years, $40 billion. If you guys hadn't been wasting the money in the province, we'd have money to deal with all kinds of problems that we have and --

The Speaker: The question has been answered.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber): My question is for the Minister of Labour. Recently, concerns have been expressed that the government is planning to move the responsibility for the enforcement of the Occupational Health and Safety Act to the Workers' Compensation Board. From the Ministry of Labour, can you clarify today what is the intention of the government with respect to the enforcement of occupational health and safety?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Labour): I'd like to assure the member and anyone else in the House, or anyone else in the province, who has concerns about the enforcement of the Occupational Health and Safety Act that this responsibility will remain with the Ministry of Labour. The only shift will be the responsibility for the prevention of workplace accidents, and that will shift to the Workers' Compensation Board.

Mr Ford: Currently, a review is being conducted of the system of health and safety in this province. How can we assure workers that health and safety is of great concern to this government and is, as you have stated on numerous occasions, your number one priority?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I would just like to give my personal assurance and the assurance of our government: We are extremely concerned, and certainly health and safety is a number one priority for our government. It's as a result of this that we set up the review of workplace health and safety. We hope that, when the report is presented on December 20, we will have recommendations that will provide us with the safest workplaces in the province. We are also moving forward in order to ensure that we continue to raise public awareness.

I am presently involved with members of the community in the introduction of programs which can ensure that we continue to raise public awareness and educate the public about the need to prevent accidents, injuries and illnesses in the workplace.

CORRECTIONAL FACILITY EMPLOYEES

Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming): Today I have a question to the Solicitor General. It concerns the right of government workers to freely organize and to work politically, and also my privilege as a member of this Legislature.

Minister, I have a memo from your ministry and it comes from Neil McKerrell, the assistant deputy minister of the correctional services division. It's addressed to all superintendents of jails and the area managers throughout the province. It's regarding job actions and information pickets.

It says to these people, "In the event of any job action and information picket from divisional employees which appears to stem from the government's or ministry's constraint proposals and initiatives, the attached job action information picket form should be completed immediately and sent up to head office."

I can understand why you might want to know what's happening in the workplace, but the memo goes on, "A report should be submitted even if an action in or adjacent to the workplace or to a local MPP's office is only suspected of being related to the constraint proposals of this government."

I'd like to ask the minister straightforwardly, why is it necessary for ministry officials to be spying on government workers and reporting their political activity to head office?

Hon Bob Runciman (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): I'll take the question as notice and get back to the member at an early date.

Mr Ramsay: I think the answer to this might come further down in the memo, because it says here, "This report and follow-up reports, as circumstances change, will enable the ministry to monitor any job actions and information pickets and to convey this information to the minister."

As a member -- and especially I have a jail that's under threat. Many of those workers come to my office and meet with me and have other information pickets in my area. I think that's an impingement upon my right to freely associate with my constituents and government workers' rights to speak up for how they see it. Minister, why are you condoning this action?

Hon Mr Runciman: I don't know how the member can conclude that I am condoning it. It wasn't signed by me. I'm not aware of the memo. I've indicated I will pursue it and get back to him at an early date.

TIMMINS AND DISTRICT HOSPITAL

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): I have a question to the Minister of Health. I know he's around. He just went around the corner. Is he available for the question? There he is. Now that we've got the minister back in his seat, I will endeavour to do the question.

Minister, you would know that in the community of Timmins a recent decision has been made by the Timmins and District Hospital to close down the South Porcupine Continuing Care centre. The board and past boards in the city of Timmins, through this hospital, have done an extreme amount of work in order to make sure that they make this hospital, the Timmins and District Hospital, the most efficient hospital possible.

In fact, speaking to board officials and speaking to the district health councils and your own ministry officials, they are recognizing that the Timmins and District Hospital is one of the most well-run hospitals in our hospital system in the province of Ontario, and I think that attests to the hard work of the people of the hospital and the community, and the former government as well, who worked with them in order to attain that level. We've done all of this, this hospital has done all of this at the same time as being able to maintain a high degree of confidence on the part of the citizens of Timmins in that hospital.

My question to the minister is simply this: Given that the hospital has no other choice, given your government's position to increase the Timmins and District Hospital, will you commit to the people of Timmins and our hospital that you will at the very least protect the present budget of the Timmins and District Hospital and not reduce it in any way, in order not to jeopardize the services that the hospital provides not only to Timmins but to the people of the district of Cochrane?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): On behalf of the ministry and the government, we appreciate the efforts that your constituents are making to try and find efficiencies and maintain quality care.

Not to avoid your question in any way, but I guess I'm a little unclear as to what exactly you're asking. The ministry, as you know, back into your government's day, has been working very closely with the people you represent, your local people. I understand the level of cooperation has been exceptional.

I was reading through the clippings the other day and I saw comments like "Closing Centre Makes Sense," "East End Hospital Might Be Closed," but then it goes on and talks about this being a local decision and says that most people in your area seem to understand very well that it's not bricks and mortar that provide the treatments and services, that it's very much the people and the services that count and the outcomes we get with respect to better population health.

So in your supplementary perhaps you could give me greater guidance as to what you require.

Mr Bisson: This particular hospital has done everything in their power to make sure that they're as efficient as possible. In fact, they balanced their budget last year, they're going to be doing so again this year and they're doing that by making the decisions. They have no other choice to make because they know your government is not prepared to increase the budget of the hospital, so they're closing down the South Porcupine Continuing Care centre and moving that facility and the beds into the new Timmins and District Hospital.

What I want to get assurance on from you is simply this: Our hospital and our community, with a lot of difficulty, have made this decision. There are people in my community still to this day, as well as myself, who are having an extremely difficult time accepting that we have to close down the facility in South Porcupine. Nobody wants to do this.

We want an assurance in our community that you as the Minister of Health will commit to what you've said in the Common Sense Revolution and not push the budget of the Timmins and District Hospital downwards, so that in the future they're going to be able to provide the services. If you cut that budget they're not going to, so will you commit to freezing at least the Timmins and District Hospital budget to what it is today and not reducing it in future budgets?

Hon Mr Wilson: It's my understanding that your local community and the hospital, which is eight kilometres away, I believe, agreed that since they had a vacant third floor and they were providing most of the acute care services at the hospital, it only made sense to move the chronic care beds and the dialysis services that are currently at the South Porcupine site on to one site.

Mr Bisson: That's not the question.

Hon Mr Wilson: It is the question, because you're implying that your people are doing this because it's somehow a money thing. Your people agreed to this through the district health council and they're to be highly commended for it because they realized that having a vacant third floor was serving no one very well, and consolidating the services gave better services to your constituents.

With respect to the money aspect, we'll certainly take your comments under consideration, and your hospital will be fully credited for the cost savings it's found to date. We should be celebrating this local agreement that wasn't driven by politicians here at Queen's Park but a realization by your local people that they can deliver services in a more efficient way and in a way that --

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): The question has been answered.

YOUNG OFFENDERS

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Simcoe Centre): My question is for the Minister of Correctional Services. Yesterday, you announced the appointment of a task force of community leaders and MPPs to develop a strict discipline program for Ontario young offenders. Could you tell the House whether the public will have an opportunity to provide input to the process?

Hon Bob Runciman (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): Yes, there will be opportunities for the public and members of the Legislature to have input into the task force deliberations. Since the election of the government, I've certainly received a great deal of mail about this issue, as I know other members have. A number of members of the assembly have indicated an interest, because of their backgrounds, with respect to this issue as well.

The co-chairs, who are members of the assembly, will be developing a framework to provide opportunities for consultation both from within the assembly and from the public, and they will be announcing that framework, I would hope, within the next few weeks.

Mr Tascona: Yesterday, the honourable member for Timiskaming talked about studies that have been done which do not portray boot camps in a favourable light. Will the task force be looking at these studies when assessing the strict discipline concept?

Hon Mr Runciman: Yes, we will. Certainly it's our intention to develop a program or programs that are specifically tailored to meet the needs of this province. A number of the studies mentioned yesterday have negative things to say about strict discipline, and we're going to be taking a careful look at those as well as the positive experiences that some jurisdictions have experienced. We want to make sure we don't fall into those traps in terms of shortcomings, but at the same time that we adopt the positive results that have occurred in a number of areas.

What we're hoping to achieve, obviously, is a positive impact on young offenders so they in turn can make a positive contribution to society. The majority of Ontario taxpayers are counting on this government to do just that.

SATELLITE GAMING

Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): My question is to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. It's my understanding, according to some September 21, 1995, minutes I have here that a proposal has been made by the Charitable Gaming Advisory Committee of the Gaming Control Commission to conduct what is called a provincial bingo. Apparently this is a satellite bingo game with a prize range between $25,000 and $45,000, and as the minister knows, it will be run by commercial bingo establishments. Could the minister tell me and tell the House what effect this will have on charitable bingos?

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations): I'm aware that this application has been made to the gaming commission and that it's considering this matter. There is no doubt that this kind of province-wide network bingo would affect charitable bingos to a very great degree. That is one concern I have, and I'm sure the gaming commission will take it into consideration in terms of whether or not it gives this particular kind of gaming the green light.

Mr Crozier: The minister will know that it's been quoted by the promoters of this scheme that it will likely kill any small charitable bingo, within range of a commercial establishment. The Charity Watch Bulletin, a paper put out by concerned small service clubs, churches and non-profit organizations, is concerned about it as well. The minister will know this is scheduled to start on January 1, according to these minutes.

I ask the minister if you will commit to us now that this will not start, in fact will never start, if it affects charitable bingos.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): The question has been asked.

Mr Crozier: The government wants these service organizations to help with social assistance, and you just can't pull the rug out from under them. So will you stop this --

The Speaker: Minister.

Hon Mr Sterling: The member well knows that the gaming commission is charged with making these kinds of decisions, as to the kind of gaming that should be undertaken or allowed in the province of Ontario. I will convey the member's concern to the gaming commission and will report to him any response I get from them.

I do want to add, however, that I share his concern with regard to the continuing competition which charities are facing as the other part of the gaming pie enlarges. It is certainly my intent and our government's intent to assist charities in maintaining this source of revenue as we understand that it is very important for local concerns and local causes.

JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN

If that is the case, does the minister agree with those assertions, and if he does, could he explain why his government is not making the continuation of junior kindergarten across Ontario a higher priority?

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): To the honourable member opposite, as I've said before this afternoon in the House, this government made a very clear commitment to the people of Ontario during the last election and in the Common Sense Revolution that we would do two things relating to junior kindergarten. One of those things is that we would make it optional across the province, and we've said that from the speech from the throne earlier this year. Secondly, we've said that junior kindergarten, as a program, needs to have a serious review to see, what are the options to meet those needs across the province? We are engaged in that review now.

Mr Wildman: Isn't it a bit phoney for the government to say that it intends to have it optional for boards across the province but at the same time to be contemplating major cuts in funding for that program for the boards? If the minister really believes it should be a local decision, can he now give a commitment that the provincial government will continue the current level of funding and that there will not be any provincial funding cuts for junior kindergarten programs across Ontario?

Hon Mr Snobelen: It's interesting. Today we've heard comments about "stable" and "horse" and now "pony." I don't know what --

Mr Wildman: Phoney.

Hon Mr Snobelen: Oh, phoney. Oh, I see. I thought you said "pony."

I can assure the member opposite that we will keep our promises to the people of Ontario. This government will do with junior kindergarten exactly what it said it would do: It'll make it optional next year and it will give it a serious review to see what are the options that the children of Ontario need.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): New question, the member for Lambton.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The member for Grey-Owen Sound is out of order. The member for Lambton.

WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD

Mr Marcel Beaubien (Lambton): My question is for the minister responsible for workers' compensation reform. Farming operations in my constituency, like other small businesses in Ontario, are concerned about the financial situation at the WCB. More importantly, they are concerned about the impact the unfunded liability will have on their assessment rates. In 1993-94, the agricultural community paid approximately $38 million into the workers' compensation system, while claims were approximately $6 million. The agricultural sector is putting a significant amount of money into the system.

During the debate on Bill 15, the Liberal Party in this House condemned the fact that the rates were frozen. Yet in this red book, which has got a little dust on it, on page 11 it states that a Liberal government would freeze the WCB rates. Could the minister indicate to the House just how this rate freeze has assisted in maintaining the competitive edge for our agricultural community?

Hon Cameron Jackson (Minister without Portfolio [Workers' Compensation Board]): I appreciate the question from the member for Lambton. He does raise some very interesting points on behalf of the agricultural community in this province. I must admit I too was rather confused listening to the debate on Bill 15, the fact that the Liberals now don't even support their position of a rate freeze.

We took the position of a rate freeze in this province because of listening to groups like the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, groups that have indicated that they are sitting poised to receive, on average, a 15% rate increase for workers' compensation costs.

I want to remind members of all political parties in every corner of this chamber -- my colleague over there from Essex South has raised concerns on behalf of tobacco farmers in his riding; my colleague from Norfolk, the same. These are very, very expensive workers' compensation rates.

Finally, the Ontario Federation of Agriculture has a government that's prepared to consult with it and look at what the contemporary challenges for agriculture are in this province and how that'll be reflected by a more sensitive approach to workers' compensation reform.

Mr Beaubien: Farmers in my constituency and indeed farm workers want to ensure that they are able to contain their costs. Unlike other sectors of the economy, they are unable to pass along their costs to consumers, or it is somewhat difficult at times. Can the minister indicate whether he will take the matter under consideration as he begins to develop his reform proposals?

Hon Mr Jackson: The fact is that when I was first given this assignment, my colleague the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, the Honourable Noble Villeneuve, approached me to make sure we had a very clear idea of the kinds of concerns being expressed by the farm community and farm workers in the province.

I'm pleased to report not only this government's decision to freeze rates in response to their concerns but also to look very carefully at the current success of the Farm Safety Association's ongoing work to improve farm safety for workers in this province. I'm very pleased that that kind of input is having an impact on our reforms and I look forward to sharing that with this House after the consultations are completed.

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to file a motion of dissatisfaction with the answer from the minister.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Fill out the necessary form and we'll accept it.

PETITIONS

QUEEN STREET MENTAL HEALTH CENTRE

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Parkdale): I have a petition here, and I keep getting petitions against the proposed jail at the Queen Street Mental Health Centre.

"Whereas the PC government is going to open a 20-bed forensic facility for the criminally insane at the Queen Street Mental Health Centre; and

"Whereas the nearby community is already home to the highest number of ex-psychiatric patients and social service providers in hundreds of licensed and unlicensed rooming-houses, group homes and crisis care facilities in all of Canada; and

"Whereas there are existing facilities that could be expanded to assess and treat the criminally insane; and

"Whereas no one was consulted -- not the local residents, not the business community, not the leaders of community organizations, not education providers, not child care providers and not even the local member of provincial Parliament;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned residents and business owners of our community, urge the PC government to stop all plans to accommodate the criminally insane in an expanded Queen Street Mental Health Centre until a public consultation process is completed."

I have attached my name to this petition.

MINISTER'S COMMENTS

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): "Whereas six women present at a meeting held by the minister responsible for women's issues, Dianne Cunningham, at her constituency office on October 25, 1995, agree that they heard the minister state, `Within the context of this government, you need to understand that groups or agencies that are seen not to be working with this government, providing an oppositional voice...will be audited and their funding eliminated'; and

"Whereas the minister responsible for women's issues denies having made this statement;

"We, the undersigned, request that the government establish a legislative committee to determine whether the minister responsible for women's issues abused her authority as a minister of the crown by making threatening and intimidating remarks at the meeting described above."

I will affix my signature to this petition.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): I've got a petition in regard to Northwestern General Hospital, one of the finest hospitals in this country.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee has wrongly recommended to close Northwestern General Hospital and asked it to merge all programs and services with Humber Memorial Hospital on Humber's site;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the recommendation of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council to close Northwestern General Hospital be rejected outright by the government of Ontario and that it keep Northwestern General Hospital open forever."

CHILD CARE

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): I have a petition signed by 300 or 400 people that reads as follows:

"We, the undersigned, are firmly opposed to the erosion of the child care system. We are most particularly concerned about the unregulated child care sector, which represents the choice of most Ontario families, many living in rural areas. We urge this government to make its budget reduction in areas where children and families will not once again be the target of cuts. Family resource programs support the informal sector of child care, which includes parents caring for their own children and care provided by grandparents, home child care providers and nannies."

I attach my name to that petition.

SUPPORT FOR POLICE OFFICER

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): I have a petition signed by 9,469 constituents of eastern Ontario who support Cornwall Police Constable Perry Dunlop's action when he reported information on a child abuse case to the children's aid society. The petition reads as follows:

"To the Legislature of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"We fully support Constable Perry Dunlop in his decision to protect children first. Further, that no action or penalty be brought against him."

The petition is signed by all citizens and children in Cornwall. I also have affixed my signature to the petition.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Monte Kwinter (Wilson Heights): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the report of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee has recommended that North York Branson Hospital merge with York-Finch General Hospital;

"Whereas this recommendation will remove emergency and inpatient services currently provided by North York Branson Hospital, which will seriously jeopardize medical care and the quality of health for the growing population which the hospital serves, many being elderly people who in numerous cases require treatment for life-threatening medical conditions;

"We petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reject the recommendation contained within the report of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee as it pertains to North York Branson Hospital so that it retains, at minimum, emergency and inpatient services."

I have affixed my signature.

CHILD CARE

Mr Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa East): I have a petition from several constituents, who are expressing their concerns about the directions the present government is taking in regard to child care; also the potential for the government to replace the present subsidy system with a voucher system. "A voucher system," they say, "as proposed by the Conservative government would take the subsidies away from our working parents and give vouchers to single workfare/learnfare parents only. This would destroy the present child care system."

This petition has been signed by 28 parents of my riding.

FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY

Mr Ed Doyle (Wentworth East): I have a petition to present to the Legislature of the province of Ontario.

"We, the undersigned, request that the Legislature of Ontario not approve any tax cuts until the causes of poverty and unemployment in Ontario are dealt with effectively and until the province's debt and deficit are paid down."

COLLEGE OF TEACHERS

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): I have a petition signed by teachers at Holy Cross School in Halton Hills; St Vincent's in Oakville; St Joseph's in Acton; Holy Rosary, Milton; St Luke in Oakville. The petition is as follows:

"Dear members of provincial Parliament:

"We, the undersigned, are writing to you as constituents in your riding to inform you that we are opposed to the proposed College of Teachers which your government is intending to legislate. As some of the 130,000 members of the Ontario Teachers' Federation we feel that the College of Teachers is the creation of another level of bureaucracy, the last thing the teachers of the province need from the government.

"The government could be spending its time more productively on the real issues of education such as providing funding for junior kindergarten, a thorough investigation of the amalgamation of school boards and better vocational and technical programs for secondary school students.

"The proposed College of Teachers does not provide for a fair representation of teachers on its governing council. The proposed college of teachers does not provide for a fair representation of francophone teachers on its governing council.

"The teachers of Ontario have never asked for a College of Teachers. The Ontario Teachers' Federation, with certain enhancements, could fulfil the powers of the proposed College of Teachers.

"The proposed College of Teachers would impose an annual fee on teachers as well as certain user fees. Most teachers already follow professional development programs and do not need additional bureaucracy to mandate such a program.

"We urge you to oppose the proposed College of Teachers and make sure that all members of the Legislature are aware of our position."

CHILD CARE

Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): I have a petition signed by a number of concerned parents and child care providers in Thunder Bay, and the petition reads:

"Whereas the Ministry of Community and Social Services is apparently intent on replacing child care subsidies with a voucher system; and

"Whereas this voucher system will discriminate against families presently utilizing subsidies and child care centres across the province;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to disallow these cuts to this critical economic investment in our communities across the province and to guarantee the current child care subsidy system remains funded and supported."

I'm proud to sign my signature to that.

HIGHWAY SAFETY

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, and it reads:

"Whereas the Ministry of Transportation is intent on reducing northern winter road maintenance services; and

"Whereas such downgrading places the lives of northern residents at undue and unnecessary risk;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to disallow these reductions in service and to guarantee that winter roads across the northern regions of the province receive the necessary maintenance to ensure the safe passage of drivers."

That's signed by constituents of mine from Dryden, Sioux Lookout, Oxdrift, Red Lake and Ignace, and I too attach my name to that petition.

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the Minister of Labour has introduced legislation, Bill 7, to drastically amend the Labour Relations Act, the Employment Standards Act, and other labour legislation which has been brought forward by successive Progressive Conservative, Liberal and New Democratic governments in the recognition of the legitimate rights of employees in Ontario; and

"Whereas the implementation of Bill 7 will undermine the fundamental democratic rights of employees to organize and to have access to collective bargaining; and

"Whereas employers have raised concerns that Bill 7 will result in an increased number of strikes; and

"Whereas the Minister of Labour is proceeding with Bill 7 without consultation with employee groups and without conducting public hearings;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to urge the Minister of Labour to withdraw Bill 7."

I affix my signature to this.

COMMUNITY-BASED JUSTICE OPTIONS

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Prescott and Russell): I have a petition signed by people in my riding and the riding of Glengarry-Stormont-Dundas.

"During the 1970s, the government of the day developed measures that curbed the growth of government by involving local communities in the provision of legal services. The criminal justice field began to recognize the benefit of community-based justice options. Privatization was considered more cost-effective while strengthening government ministries through community participation in the justice system.

"Since this time, non-profit agencies across Ontario have developed effective programs and present a strong local face to the justice system while supporting partnerships with an ever-widening community base. Community programs have proven to be effective in comparison to directly operated government services. Community-based options reduce the cost of incarceration while promoting public safety.

"Whereas community-based justice programs such as community service orders, diversion, alternative measures, bail supervision etc have proven value; the screening and supervision of accused and offenders within well-defined programs contribute to public safety; for over 20 years community-based options have made a positive contribution to the welfare of the community of Ontario;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"We believe these programs must not be viewed as dispensable. As with many recent cuts, short-term fiscal expediency holds no long-term value. Credible links with the community and quality programs for the citizens of Ontario must be maintained."

HIGHWAY SAFETY

Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming): To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ministry of Transportation is intent on reducing northern winter road maintenance services; and

"Whereas such downgrading places the lives of northern residents at undue risk and unnecessary risk;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to disallow these reductions in service and to guarantee that winter roads across the northern regions of the province receive the necessary maintenance to ensure safe passage of drivers."

I affix my signature to this.

SEAWAY VALLEY FARMERS' ENERGY CO-OPERATIVE

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, hereby petition the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs to honour a $3-million commitment to assist the Seaway Valley Farmers' Energy Co-operative construct a $40- to $45-million facility to produce ethanol fuel and associated byproducts in the Cornwall area.

"This $3-million commitment was announced by the former government on April 5, 1995, and was supported by MPPs from all three parties, including the current Minister of Agriculture, whom we hereby petition to immediately provide the money promised to the Seaway Co-operative."

It's signed by many constituents of my riding, and I also signed the petition.

HIGHWAY SAFETY

Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): I have a petition signed by residents of Terrace Bay, Schreiber, Nipigon and Thunder Bay.

"Whereas the Ministry of Transportation is intent on reducing northern winter road maintenance services; and

"Whereas such downgrading places the lives of northern residents at undue and unnecessary risk;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to disallow these reductions in service and to guarantee that winter roads across the northern regions of the province receive the necessary maintenance to ensure the safe passage of drivers."

I'm proud to sign my name.

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Pursuant to standing order 34(a), the member for Cochrane South has given notice of his dissatisfaction with the answer to his question given by the Minister of Health concerning the operating budget of the Timmins and District Hospital. This matter will be debated today at 6 pm.

OPPOSITION DAY

FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY

Mr Rae moved opposition day motion number 3:

Whereas the Common Sense Revolution commits the Mike Harris government to creating 725,000 new jobs; and

Whereas the Common Sense Revolution states that "Ontario needs jobs today and jobs tomorrow"; and

Whereas the government has cut public investments and programs eliminating tens of thousands of jobs in Ontario; and

Whereas unemployment currently stands at 8.5% in Ontario and the current instability in employment in Ontario is of concern to all members of this House; and

Whereas the Mike Harris government has condemned children and their parents relying on social assistance to a less than survival existence; and

Whereas the Harris government has told families who rely on welfare "to work and to get jobs to supplement their income"; and

Whereas the Harris government has done nothing to promote job creation in Ontario; and

Whereas the Mike Harris government has ended an era where partnerships between business, labour and government promoted economic development; and

Whereas the Mike Harris government is following a fiscal plan aimed at further cuts, increasing economic drag and a tax handout to the wealthy; and

Whereas the Mike Harris government's fiscal plan will do nothing to create jobs today or tomorrow;

Therefore, this House calls on the Mike Harris government to take the unemployment situation in this province seriously by restoring job creation programs and job support programs and to follow a balanced and responsible approach to economic development and deficit reduction, rather than pursue a policy of irresponsible cuts to program funding and economic investment in order to pay for tax breaks for the rich.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): We will be dividing the time equally among the three parties.

Mr Bob Rae (York South): Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak in the House and to simply say a few words on the subject of the motion which, I think, is extremely clear and speaks for itself.

I don't think there's any question that the one issue that preoccupies most of the citizens of this province is not a revolution or a red book or some government's program or other. The issue that concerns people more than any other in this province has been, for a very consistent period of time, the issue of jobs, of steady work for our citizens, steady work that has eluded us for a very substantial period of time.

I know that members opposite will choose to put forward their own statistics and their own perspective. All I can say to members is this: In the 1989-90-91 recession, this province took a very hard blow. We can all argue about the causes of that, and no doubt members opposite will in their speeches today speak about how it was our government and, indeed, me personally who was responsible for the loss of some 300,000 manufacturing jobs. I can say to members that my shoulders are broad enough and my skin is thick enough to absorb these continuing comments.

I think the facts of the matter are that following 1991, the job situation in the province improved, beginning in 1992-93, and in 1994 we had in effect a very positive year for a period of time ending in December to the point that, just before Christmas of 1994, this province had 5,254,000 people employed. We had our unemployment rate down around 8%. But, unfortunately, since that time, the employment situation has been flat.

It's levelled off to the point where today, as I speak, the latest statistics which the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism referred to in his answer to my question, showed that we have 5,240,000 people employed, which is, as he correctly pointed out, is a 27,000 increase over the last two months, but as I would point out to him -- I'm sure he's looking at the same statistics as I am -- is a 9,000 decrease since last year at this time. This effectively means that the issue of employment and of jobs and of the availability of work remains a critical issue for us.

I have said on many occasions and I will say again, there is no question that in order for us to deal with the problems that the province has faced, if we had been re-elected in June 1995, we would not only have had to make difficult decisions, which I have stated before, but let me boldly give the minister another hostage to fortune and say we would have had to make cuts. Everybody understands that. In fact, what was unique about the last election was that all three parties agreed that we would have to make cuts. There were some differences. The red book was -- what shall I say? -- ambiguous on the subject --

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): That's polite.

Mr Rae: Well, my cup, for some reason, runneth over today and I don't feel like engaging in unnecessary partisanship.

But I would say to members opposite that we all recognize that. Where do we

part company with the government? I think the essential parting of the ways is not on the question of whether cuts have to be made. The essential parting of the ways is, first of all, how that is being done and also the extent to which it is being done because of the income tax cuts.

This is where we

part company with the government.

As my colleague from Scarborough, the Liberal Finance critic, said, in what I thought was a very effective question the other day, "Why is it wrong to borrow to pay for capital investment, but right to borrow to pay for an income tax cut?" To which I would add, we know, on the basis of every computer simulation and every study that's been done, studies that have been done for the Bank of Montreal, studies that have been done for other organizations, we know as a matter of fact -- not as a matter of theory, not as a matter of ideology, not as a matter of faith -- that the way the income tax cuts have been structured by this government, they will have less of a stimulative effect than the cuts that they are making with respect to investment.

What we are going to find, as a result of all of this Sturm und Drang, all of the struggle, all of the sacrifice which is going to start next week, is that the number of people who are unemployed will go up, the number of people who are looking for work will go up, and the impact of the income tax cuts -- which will be coming, we hope, in 1996; we're told in 1997; we're not quite sure; they may be deferred; it seems to depend on the day in terms of the position of the Minister of Finance -- will not make up for the cuts that have been brought in.

I once said, when I was the Finance critic in the House of Commons, that it would appear that there are three kinds of economics. There's Keynesian economics; then there's pre-Keynesian economics; and then there's pre-Cambrian economics, and it is the latter of which we speak today: pre-Cambrian because it's based, not on fact, but on an ideology and because it fails to recognize the pain and the suffering which is going to be caused by the policies they are bringing in and because it will not have the impact that we all want it to have on jobs.

With great respect to the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism, when he says, as a matter of philosophy, it is the government's view that government assistance does not create jobs, I can only say to him: That is an expression of faith, but it is in fact categorically wrong.

There are lots of examples where government investment, where government-encouraged investment, where government-leveraged investment, does create jobs. I would say to him that, as a result of this ideology which he is expressing, we are going to lose jobs in this province. The biotech industry indicates that they're going to move to Quebec. Why? Because the government of Quebec has a sectoral strategy. It has a strategy for that particular cluster of industries and they are prepared to support it, support it in very concrete, specific, visible and practical ways.

I would say directly to the minister, we wouldn't have de Havilland Aircraft alive and the largest single industrial employer in Metropolitan Toronto if we had taken the attitude that he did. We wouldn't have Algoma Steel working at top capacity and at good profitability if we'd taken his attitude. We wouldn't have been able to save the thousands of jobs that we saved because -- and I make no bones about it -- there are times and there are places where government assistance, where government investment is needed, necessary and a positive step that needs to be taken.

To put all your faith in the market, when we know full well that the market alone will not necessarily create full employment, is the best example that I can think of of faith triumphing over experience. The simple fact of the matter is that unemployment among our young people remains a critical problem. The rate of unemployment among young people is higher today than it was a year ago. There are more unemployed youth today -- 136,000 -- than there were a year ago -- 133,000 -- and I don't see anything practical emerging from the government which is going to change that.

We had in place some practical measures -- the JumpStart program, the Jobs Ontario program -- and I know full well the opposition that was expressed by the Conservative Party to those programs, but I can tell you they provide a lot more hope going into this winter and a lot more sense that we're going to be addressing these problems on a practical basis than all the theology which we hear on the other side. That to me remains the critical question: whether or not a government is prepared to be practical.

I put it to the minister, if Michigan and New York state and Quebec and Ontario are competing for the same investment, and Michigan, Quebec and New York state are prepared to take the kinds of measures in terms of training, in terms of all the steps that have been put in place, that the former Davis government understood full well -- how do you think we got the Toyota investment back in the early 1980s, when we were trying to attract Japanese car investment? How do you think we expanded the Ford investment, which we managed to do in 1991-92?

I well remember Mr Ken Harrigan from the Ford Motor Co coming in to see me at the depth of the recession in 1992. He called me on a Friday afternoon at 4 o'clock and said, "I've got to see you right away." I assumed it was bad news, and it wasn't. He came to see me to say, "We want to be able to compete with Ohio and Michigan to attract new investment in Windsor." Do you think if I'd simply sat down and said to him, "There's nothing for you. We have no programs in place, nothing on training, nothing on transition, nothing on new investment, nothing at all" -- if I'd taken that ideological position, we wouldn't have those jobs. They would not have come here.

The problem the minister is going to have, as he confronts the way the world really works, is that other governments are offering, other governments are in the game, and if the government of Ontario is saying, "We don't like that game," then I would say to him, "Before you stop playing the game, you better make sure that others aren't playing it as well."

That's the problem I have with the approach that this government has taken. The blanket statement that government assistance does not create jobs is false; it is a false statement. It is fascinating to me that a Minister of Economic Development and Trade would make that statement when, as my colleague the member for Wilson Heights has said, "If that's your view, then what do you see your job as?" I think that's a very legitimate question to be asked.

Together with the question of the impact of cuts, how they are introduced and the overall effect that they will have on people, as well as the question of how the cuts overall will act as a significant drag on the economy, I want to suggest to you that this question of jobs, of job opportunity, of the focus and the creation of jobs, is going to be the issue that is going to determine the success or the failure of this government.

I would say, in all sincerity, that I hope the government is successful in creating new jobs. I really do, because I don't believe that any one of us can sit back with satisfaction and say, "I hope you fail and I hope the number of people unemployed goes up." I don't hope that at all. We've all been at this business for far too long to take that short-range point of view.

I would try to give the government the benefit of some advice. Sure, there were improvements that could have been made in Jobs Ontario. Yes, a narrower focus with respect to the mission of the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade, fine. No one disputes that. We all were moving in that direction. That was the advice of the Premier's Council, that was the advice that we were getting from the private sector.

But the advice that we were not getting, and the advice that I don't believe is there, is one that says, "Cut wilfully, cut right across the board." I disagree profoundly with the decision to cancel infrastructure investment. I think that's going to prove to be one of the most shortsighted decisions that the government has made with respect to Metropolitan Toronto.

If you want to talk about 10 lost years, we had 15 lost years in infrastructure investment in Metropolitan Toronto rapid transit as it relates to GO Transit, as it relates to the TTC. We had a period of time during the boom years of the 1970s and 1980s when there was scarcely any new investment in the system. When we took office there were plans in place to proceed and we said, "We're going to proceed with these plans and we're going to move ahead."

I regret that Metropolitan Toronto's government itself was not willing to be bolder and firmer in its own commitment to this infrastructure investment, and I believe that the uncertainty of the commitment of Metro Toronto made it easier for this current government to cancel the plans which it has cancelled. But that is all water under the bridge.

What we are now facing is a substantial reduction in capital and infrastructure investment, a complete misunderstanding or a refusal to understand the problem of social capital, and simple mantras back and forth, back and forth, on the subject of the deficit, without the Conservative government having the decency to admit that if they were really concerned about the deficit, they would take what is surely the common sense point of view, which is no tax cut till we've resolved the deficit issue, which is the position that I took in the last election, for which I was of course amply rewarded by the electorate.

I happen to believe that's the practical approach. I happen to believe that we were committed to a balanced budget as strongly as the Liberal Party was and as the Conservative Party was. The difference between us was how we would get there and what we would sacrifice in order to get there, and that I think is the critical difference of opinion.

What this government is doing is going to increase uncertainty in the job market. It's going to increase a sense of unfairness in the workforce, unfairness because of the way in which this government has introduced its cuts and because the lion's share of the income tax cuts will not go to lower- and middle-income people; the lion's share of the income tax cuts will go to wealthier people who are already fully employed and who in all likelihood will use this cash (

a) to reduce their consumer and household debt and (

b) to increase their RRSP savings or possibly some other forms of spending offshore. That is not a sensible way to move.

In closing, I would say to the minister that if you were to cut taxes, that is to say, if you felt that cutting taxes was necessary and was part of a necessary stimulative package to the economy, I would suggest to you that a far better approach to take would be to do the following: raise the threshold relating to the income tax so that lower-income people get to keep more and are taxed less. They will spend money far more quickly than your $150,000-a-year young stockbroker with his wide suspenders; far more quickly, far more rapidly, to their much greater benefit.

Second, take the step which we took in the 1994 budget, and that was to move on the employer health tax and use the employer health tax reduction, or indeed elimination for certain classes of business, or indeed for all businesses for a year, which is what we did, if you hired someone, as a direct reward for hiring.

On this I close: The government has got to learn that theology is not going to solve our problems and that simply repeating the mantras about what government cannot do is not going to solve our problems.

You create jobs most effectively by government itself being prepared to invest in those things which will produce a long-term social and economic benefit to the community and, second of all, by government being prepared to work with business to ensure that in fact businesses will create jobs.

We did it through a whole range of programs, through direct partnerships in Jobs Ontario Training, the JumpStart program, which was going to be directed at young people, and through the reduction of the health tax and reduction of the payroll taxes, which are related to the creation of jobs. That makes far more sense.

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean): Tax cuts.

Mr Rae: And if you're going to cut the taxes, which my colleague the member for Nepean is urging us to do, then I would say look at where you're going to get the greatest stimulus. I would suggest that an income tax cut, which gives the greater benefit to wealthy people, is not the way to go and that it makes far more sense to do it in a way which ensures that lower-income people get the lion's share rather than the other way around.

It's obvious and clear, I think, from question period and from other debates that we've held, and certainly all the leadership debates that took place before the election and during the election campaign, that we differ very profoundly from our friends in the Conservative Party on the approach that they are taking. I hope, in a curious way, they are right and I am wrong but I suspect that the facts simply don't point in that direction. The facts point in a different direction.

They point in a way of saying that the kind of economic zealotry which we're seeing on the other side will certainly enrich some and it will benefit some and it will come to the advantage of some. But I do not believe that it will have the positive impact on jobs, which has got to be the critical test of this government, because we're not in a big recession, we're not going through some worldwide depression, we're into a period when we are supposed to be steadily improving and steadily creating new jobs and new opportunities.

If this government fails that test, fails to move to give some hope and inspiration to young people and some sense of real confidence to our working population, then this government will be judged and found wanting.

Hon William Saunderson (Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism): I note that the challenge today was that "this House calls on the Mike Harris government to take the unemployment situation in this province seriously." I want to assure all members of the House that we do take the situation very seriously. I'd like to outline our philosophy and what we are doing to correct the situation.

This is the first time, by the way, that I've had a chance to speak as the member for Eglinton riding. I have answered questions and spoken as the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism, and I'd like to say how honoured I am to be the member for Eglinton at Queen's Park. I was elected on June 8 for the first time and I'd like to thank the electors for doing that, for electing me. I feel very honoured.

Eglinton riding is a very typical urban riding in Toronto that has all income groups within it. It has homeowners, it has renters, it has families, single people, newly married young people and many retired couples as well. I have lived there for 34 years and I've come to know what those people think, and I'd like to tell you something today about what I found during the election campaign.

I did a lot of door-knocking, at over 30,000 doors, and I found that people wanted change. They wanted an end to the waste and abuse and the mismanagement and an end to high taxes and overspending. They wanted us to balance the budget, and that's what we're going to do in our first term. They wanted a sensible social policy, and I believe we're going to do that, but most of all, I think they wanted job creation for their family members and they wanted a hope for their future.

Since the election I have been doing more door-knocking just to keep in touch with my constituents.

Mr Gilles Pouliot (Lake Nipigon): Always wise.

Hon Mr Saunderson: It is a wise thing to do, and I also have been meeting people in my constituency office. I've been getting letters and sending letters, as we all do, talking to people on the street, people of all backgrounds, and I have found that they are saying to us: "Do the right thing. Keep on doing what you're doing. Don't blink, because this is what has to be done if we're going to bring this province back from the very bad financial crisis that the previous governments had put us into." As much as I respect the leader of the third party and the fact that he was the Premier of this province, we should all have three jobs because of the money that they spent trying to create jobs.

Now, the people of Eglinton understand what we are trying to do, and I think the people of Ontario understand as well. They just will not stand or tolerate the status quo of overspending, high taxes and corporate handouts. All of these things must end.

Obviously the Liberals don't understand because of the questions I've been asked and obviously the NDP don't understand, and I was very disappointed the other day with the member for Wilson Heights, who I've known for many years and respect a great deal. He has risen in the House three times, and every time he's basically defended the NDP and Liberal corporate handouts and almost asked me to make sure that these handouts were continued, as did the leader of the third party, just today in his speech.

Thousands of businesses in Ontario survive every day without ever receiving a nickel of government money, and that's a lesson for all businesses. I think it's unfair to tax these businesses, these successful businesses who've asked for nothing, to tax them and their workers in order to give money to a select few businesses. I think it's unfair and I think the Liberals support this unfairness, and by the motion today it's clear that the member for York South and the NDP also support this unfairness. They have zero confidence in the ability of the entrepreneurial spirit, which I think is very sad.

I admire the self-reliance and common sense of Ontario's citizens, and government cannot create wealth and it cannot create prosperity, but what our governments can do, and what this government will do, is to restore confidence in Ontario as a place to live, to work and to do business. Those are excellent aims. We are creating an environment that encourages and enables the private sector to invest and create jobs. We will get our fiscal house in order in Ontario.

How are we going to do all this? Well, we're going to lower the personal income taxes to reward initiative, and we will work with businesses to bridge the gaps that deny Ontario businesses access to opportunities.

So far, we have scrapped Bill 40 and replaced it with Bill 7, and that has met with great approval from the business community. We have scrapped the corporate filing fee of $50 and the cumbersome corporate information return and we will combine it with the tax return to show just how easily this can be done without a lot of expenses by business.

We've begun the much-needed overhaul of the Workers' Compensation Board and we have frozen the average hydro rates. That is very good, because now businesses can operate in a predictable environment. They don't like to have unnecessary and unwanted surprises. We've also scrapped the NDP job quota program, and once again we've been applauded by the business community.

We are committed to eliminating the employer health tax on the first $400,000 of all payrolls. We have tabled pro-growth changes to the Planning Act and we've begun a red-tape review which will eliminate all unnecessary regulation. These barriers undermine our ability to attract investment and jobs.

We have seen some effect of our actions. Recently, Ontario welfare rolls took their biggest single-month drop since 1969, 27,000 new jobs have been created in the last two months, and we will meet our commitment of 725,000 new jobs, I am certain.

What we are going to do is market Ontario to key domestic and foreign decision-makers to tell them we have the right job climate in Ontario. We are going to market Ontario's business image and trade, tourism and investment potential. We're going to work with businesses to remove barriers to investment, growth and job creation, and we are going to help businesses develop capabilities in locating financing, penetrating new markets and adopting new technologies. We will work with Ontario's business sectors to promote networking that encourages sensible practices and fosters research and development and innovation.

We cannot continue to tax and spend and regulate and expect consumers to spend, businesses to grow and Ontario to compete. Job creators have told me that many times. The people of Eglinton have told me that. The people of Ontario sent that message to this government. We are listening and doing what the people of Eglinton and Ontario want us to do.

While I appreciate the input from the member for York South and his party, with this motion today they clearly demonstrate why they are the last people who should be lecturing anybody on how to run an economy, create jobs and foster hope in the province of Ontario. Government cannot create jobs, but government can create the economic climate to create jobs. This is what Ontario will do. Once again, it will become a place in which to stand and a place to grow.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): I really appreciate the opportunity to debate this issue because, frankly, of all the issues we'll debate in this Legislature, I happen to think this is perhaps the most important. I think the problem is acute. It is a problem we all share, and I hope we all have a vested interest in finding the solutions.

I really worry most about our young people. There is no doubt that they face right now a very desperate job situation. If you look at the numbers on youth unemployment, it is reported at 16% or 17%. But if you look deeper at it, the fa