Manitoba Hansard — 14 March 1974 (Sitting 52, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-52

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLA TIVE AS SEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2:30 o'c lock, Thursday, March 14, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. IN TRODUCTION OF GUESTS 1381 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 23 students, Grade 5 standing, of the Riverton Elemen tary School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Riddell. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. George, th� Minister respons ible for Manitoba Public Ins urance Corporation. We also have 32 students, Grade 11 and 12 standing, of the !St. Claude School.

These students are under the direction of Mr. Chapman. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Morris. And we have 25 students of Grade 11 standing of the Sisler High School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Tanchak. This school is located ip the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster, the Minister of Mines, Resourc es and Environmental Manage ment. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by standing and Special Committees; The Honourable Member for St.

Vital. REPORTS OF STANDING COMMITT EES MR. JA MES WA LDING (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Standing Committee on Private Bills. MR. CLERK: Your Committee met for organization on Thursday, March 14, 1974 and appointed Mr. Walding as Chairman. Your Committee recommends that the time for receiving Petitions for Private Bills by the House be extended to the 18th day of April, 1974, and that the time for pres enting Private Bills to the House be extended to the 25th day of April, 1974. All of which is respectf ully submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR.

WA LDING: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Hohourable Member for Gimli, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. WA LDING: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli, that the time for receiving petitions for Private Bills by the Hous13 be extended to the 18th day of April, 1974, and that the time for pres enting Private Bills to the House be extended to the 25th day of April, 1974. MOTION pres ented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Attorney General. TABLING OF REPORTS I HON.

HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to table the Fifteenth Annual Report of The Municipal Board for the year �nding December 31, 1973. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK (Minister of Finance) (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, it's not really a report that I have to file but I'm sure members wouldn't mind if I announced that I'm asking the Clerk to distribute a new publication, which is really new only in the sense that it is a com pendium of already issued information.

This year we have published a booklet of financial statements of boards, commissions and government agencies of the province, which brings together all the reports of agencies and commissions that have al;ready been filed in various places and which I'm sure all honourable members have wherever in their files, and we thought it worthwhile and I am causing to be distributed a booklet having all of them together so that there'll be one place henceforth where members and people interested will know that they'll be able to turn to find the statement of any of the boards, and that will be distributed this afternoon.

1382 March 14, 1974 TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports ? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I would have your indulgence, Sir, to raise a matter of privilege, and prior to doing that, Sir, to apologize to you, Sir, directly for any unruliness I may have caused in the Chamber the other evening. This is my first occasion to do so.

I wish it clearly understood between you and me, Sir, that I will attempt to conduct myself in a manner more befitting an honourable member in this Chamber. I do apologize to you, Sir, for having caused you some undue difficulties in the Chamber the other evening. As a matter of personal privilege, Sir, I leave that to members on the opposite side to decide as to whether or not very serious, unfair, unfounded, and untrue comments or remarks were thrown across to me.

If they are prepared to live with them, well then I certainly have no difficulty in living with them, but I would suggest through you, Sir, that there was a griev ous matter of personal privilege, an unjust and grievous accusation hurled at me, duly re ported by the press which, Sir, I leave to you as to whether or not you thought that that did constitute a matter of personal privilege on my behalf. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I'm almost inclined to say, "Who, me ?" but I think that I know at whom the honourable member was directing his remarks.

However, the Member for Swan River seems to be wanting to make a contribution, Mr. Speaker. MR. JAME S H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I suggest it was no joking matter and it should be treated with the seriousness in which it has been brought before this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, Iw ant to soften my remarks to the same extent as was done by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, and I will not resp ond in the way I may have responded had he not spoken to you in the manner he did.

So I will say only that I was possibly saved by the bell at ten o'clock from following in the lines of a manner which I think was in dicated in the some twenty minutes preceding the ten o'clock when I rose to speak, and I'm glad that the bell, or the hour, stop ped me from following in that line, at which time I was about to refer to an occasion when the honourable member - and he admits that he did - out in the country on some politic al platform, did refer to a Mr.

Stothert as being the best man at my wedding, knowing full well that it was untrue, and he in this House mentioned that fact and said that he apologized to Mr. Stothert but he didn't think it was really necessary to do much more. than that. And that is what I was about to refer to. No doubt my language was stronger and harsher than the occasion would have warranted, but those present may judge the reason for it, so that to the extent that I offended the honourable member, I withdraw the remarks. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK Q.

C. (Leader of the Official Oppositio n) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, on the question of privilege. Al though I was not present in the House, I did read the newsp aper reports and the privileges of the House I think are involved to the extent that there were accusations made by members on the opposite side and I suggest to them that it ill behooves them to make those accusations to this side. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, it ill behooves the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition to rise on this point of privileg e since he is the one who accused me of knowing of certain allegations of fraud before the summer of 1973, etc. and when asked to bring forward the basis upon which he made that accusation of me, indicated that he got it from some television newscast. Mr. Speaker, anyone who is prepared to abuse the privilege of other honourable members in that respect is hardly one to be called upon to add his words to a question of privilege that is being suitably resolved as is. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: The First Minister has made statements that are not true and I would ask that he withdraw them. Mr. Speaker. there have been statements alleged by the Minister,

March 14, 1974 1383 MATTER OF PRIVILEGE (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) . .. made by others, that I have referred to.-- made by others, not made by me, and I think the First Minister should be in a posit ion ,to at least recite the true facts by suggesting to the House that all I have done is place on re9ord statements made by others. Mr. Speaker, I don't have to name them but I'm capable qf naming them, and I would refer the Honourable Minister of Finance to one reporter who repqrts in this Legislature. I He's well aware of who that is and he is quite capable of interviewing and dealing with that person himself.

But having said that, Mr. Speake r, I do not think that the First Minister's statement is accurate and I would ask him to withdraw that statement. I did not make such a statement. I alluded to statements made by others. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speak er, the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition has con firmed that he has made reference to me based upon what others have said, and Mr.

Speake r, it's a well-known rule and common courtesy of parliament that if someone is going to make serious allegations with respect to an honourable member, that he be prepared to take respon sibility for that which he is alleging and not shove it off on saying "others said" or "it was reported in the press. " When you try to find out what the root source of those allegations were, it seems as though that cannot be ascertained. But the Leader of the Opposition, on that vague kind of information, makes serious allegations about an honourable member opposite. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON.

RUSSE LL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona) : Mr. Speake r, if I may, on the matter of privilege. There is the privileges of members of the House, there's also privileges of the House itself. And I want to say, Mr. Speake r, I'm sure that you're aware of the fact, that at the time referred to of the incidents of the other night, I was the Act ing Leader of this House, and I want to appreciate very much the approach of the Honourable Member for Lakeside and also my colleague the Minister of Finance, and I wo�ld suggest, Mr.

Speaker, as just an ordinary member of this House, that we accept the spi d t in which the Honourable Member for Lakeside asked consideration of the matters that werd under consideration or discussi on at the time of adjournment at 10 o'clock. I would also like to say, Mr. Speaker, that I think that it was most inapprop riate for the I Honourable the Leader of the Opposition to rise and make a contriqution to the debate that was taking place at that time, when he acknowledges that he was nqt present in the House at the time and that he got his information through the press media. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I've never known at any time in a matter of privilege, that a member who rises on a matter of privilege, being absent at the time, is capable of raising a matter of privilege. And also, Mr. Speake r, may I suggest that if the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition has a matter of privilege dealing with some alleged statements of the First Minister or anybody else, the lapse of time between that and now are such that it's inappropriate for the Leader of the Opposition to raise the same. And I would suggest, I would suggest, Mr.

Spea ker, that members of the House -- and now I am appealing, not in my position that I held the other night as Acting Leader of the House, but a member of this House, I would suggest that it would be well for all of us in this Ass embly to accept the stance of the Honourable Member for Lakeside and that of the Minister of Finance, and get on with the business of governing Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture also? The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: You know, as so often happens we pass each other in our arguments.

I want to not leave on the public record, and in particular for the sake of the Minister of Finance, to indicate to him there was absolutely nothing that he said last night that caused me any par ticular offence or that would constitute a matter of privilege in my point of view. Absolu tely none - the night before. The matter to which I allude is an entirely different matter and I just would want that placed on the record, and I leave that to the honourable members opposite, if they choose to live with that kind of, with that kind of a pers onal muckraking, then they can live with that. MR.

PAULLEY: Let's get on with the business of Manitoba. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture.

1384 March 14, 1974 ORAL QUE STIONS HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speake r, on Monday last I gave a series of answers to the House, 36 in total I believe, to a number of questions put by the opposition, and I want to draw your attention, Mr. Speake r, to the third paragraph on page 1248, and I quote, Mr.

Speake r: "Those are all of the responses that I have received from the department to the questions put by members opposite and, while I haven't had much time to discuss all of them with the department, let me assure honourable friends that I will make sure that I go over them again in an effort to determine whether there have been any errors or omissions, and if members want to put further questions I will be pleased to take those as notice and to further inform members oppo site. " Mr.

Speake r, on that par ticular day I informed the House that the department advised me that South Indian Lake Co-operative was audited by Ernst, Ernst and Burch Findlay. I should have said, Mr. Speaker , that those two firms assist ed in the auditing proceedings that took place and that the certification was by the department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: My question is to the Minister of Co-ope ratives. Will he now confirm that the firms only assisted in the reconstruction of certain information for an 11-month audit and not for a full year audit? MR.

USKIW: I believe that it was less than a year but I'll check that again, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister of Co-operative Development will confirm that other than the departmental audit, which is now in the pr ocess of being attempted to be re constructed by his own department, other than that there is no external audit of the Southern Indian Lake Co-op. MR. USKIW: I believe that is correct, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance.

In the light of his comments this morning in the Public Ac counts Committee, has the Minister of Finance consulted with his Cabinet colleagues in the matter of directing the provincial auditors to examine the financial statements of the fishing co-ops ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speak er, I made a statement at the Committee and I stand by the statement I made. MR. SPIVAK: To the Minister of Finance.

I wonder whether the Minister will give an undertaking to the House that he will discuss this question with the Cabinet and indicate what direction the government propo ses to give to the Provincial Auditor. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speake r, I will not change tradition by saying anything other than no. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speak er, I direct my ques tion to the Honourable the Attorney-General. Could the Attor ney-General inform the House the reason for the delay with respect to the 26 charges laid against officials and compani es.

Churchill Forest Industries last June ? Why the delay on action until the present time ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Atto rney-General. MR. PA WLEY : Mr. Speaker, they were not delayed until the present time. The honourable member's relying upon press, some press reports in yesterday's Winnipeg Free Press. The first charge in fact was laid last June and there have been pro ceedings take place since that date.

The proceeding s that the honourable member is referring to were in fact interim proceedings dealing with interim app lications in respect to certain proceeding s which will be taking place within the State of New York but it is not correct to suggest that charges were laid last Friday or within the immediate pas t. MR. G. JOHNSTON: For clarification. Did the Minister say that there was one charge made last June, or more than one ? Last June. MR. PA WLEY: No. The charges were laid at various times but commencing last June. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: Could the Minister explain the discrep ancy reported in that it has been stated that there was $92 million of MDC money loaned, yet the fraud charges speak of $112 million. MR. PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, I want to advise the House that I have been advised by special legal counsel in respect to this entire matter, that it would not be in the interest at this point, the interest of Manitobans, that there be any pu blicity or any debate in respect to

March 14, 1974 1385 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PA WLEY cont' d) • . . this matter at this particular point, and I would hope that honour able members would, in the interests of Manitoba, keep that in mind. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Spea ker,l'm not talking a private matter; it's widely known throughout North America, it's appeared in the New York papers and the Manitoba papers today, and so I would ask the question: What steps are being taken besides the pro secutions for criminal charge� what steps are being taken for the recovery for some or all the funds involved ? MR.

PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, in respect to a suggested discrepancy insofar as the amounts are concerned, that is a matter of calculation and calculations indicate the amount that's referred to - 12 0 - some million - and certainly the courts at the appro priate time will deal with that as to whether that is the amount or not, so I do not think that is a matter that we ought to want to debate in this House. What other proceed ings will take place will unfold with the events ahead. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Has the Minister's department had correspon dence from the Federal Minister in charge of the Canadian Wheat Board stating that coarse grains will be dropped from the Wheat Board's jurisdiction in Augu st ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: I can app reciate, Mr. Speaker, the fact that my honourable friend has not been involved long in this Chamber, and when we have discussed that particular question on many occasions, Mr.

Speaker, over the last two or three years, there has been an awful lot of discussion and communication over the last two or three years on that subject matter, and therefore the direction of the Government of Canada is fairly obvious . MR. BANMAN: A sup plementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Has the Minister's dep artment undertaken to conduct a vote among the coarse grain producers in Manitoba asking these producers if they want to keep marketing coarse grains under the Federal Wheat Board? MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Speake r. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

SPIVAK: My question is to the Att orney-General. Has the CFI Commission completed its report and given it to the government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Attorne y-General can inform the House whether the charges, the recent charges that have been laid, have been laid as a result of the report com pleted or in the pr ocess of being completed by the CFI Commission ? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if the Honourable the Leader of the Opposit ion would refer to my answer, he will find that I did not agree that the charges laid were of immediate recent nature. MR. SPIVAK: Well, then, I put the question to the Attorney-General. Were the charges laid discussed with the members of the CFI Inquiry Commission ? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, let me return to the comments I made earlier, that the advice which I have received and which I intend to depend upon, is that we must attempt to avoid debate on matters such as that at this point. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assi niboia. MR.

STEVE PATRICK (Assi niboia): Mr. Speaker, I have some other questions for the Honourable Att orney-General. I wonder if the Atto rney-General can advise and inform the House what stage extradition proceedings are at to bring individuals to trial, and have any orders been obtained. If so where, and what is being done to obtain such orders ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable At torney-General. MR. PAWLEY: That is the very type of question that I have no intention of answering. MR. PATRICK: I have a sup pl ementary, Mr. Speaker.

Is the Attor ney-General able to inform the House whether extradition treaties exist with all jurisdictions involved or whether other arrangements have been made to facilitate to bring those people to trial ? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for As siniboia.

1386 March 14, 1974 ORAL QUE STIONS MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour. Has the Government of Manitoba given its support to the initiatives announced by the Federal Minister of Transport to change the National Transportation Act to compel the railways to act in the interest of western Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, while I have no jurisdiction as the Minister of Labour precisely now due to changes of Cabinet responsibility, I can assure my honourable friend that the Government of Manitoba are always interested in the destiny of the farmers of Western Canada. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speak er, I then wish to direct my supplementary question to the Minister who's responsible for transportation and .•.. MR. PAULLEY: Unfortunately, Mr. Spe aker, he's out of town at the present time looking after the affairs of Manitoba. MR. PATRICK: I wish to direct this question to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker.

Will the Minister or the First Minister advise the House as to the economic benefits for Manitoba resulting from the Federal Government's pledge to totally roll back the 35 percent freight rate increase for moving steel from Eastern Canada to Western Canada - to Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speake r, the honourable member asks whether an evalua tion will be made of the effect of an indicated intent on the part of the Government of Canada, the answer is yes. MR. PATRICK: A sup ple mentary.

Will the First Minister consider introducing a resolution exp ressing all-party support in the Manitoba Legislature for revealing by the rail ways of cost under operations, a move which would complement and hence an all-party sup port of this type of legislation in the House of Commons. MR. SCHREYER: I don't see any difficulty in doing that, Mr. Speaker, largely because that has been the very subject matter of communiques issued by all four western provinces in recent days and a year ago, and I suspect by successive government of this provin ce. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J.

EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Minister confirm that Mrs. Gwen Parker, Executive Secre tary of the Women's Institute, has been relieved of her posit ion as of March 31 st. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speake r, I am not sure that that is the case but that is not a full-time position, that is a term part-time position that the honourable member is referring to. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Speaker, with that answer to the question that I posed then, can the Minister confirm that the position of Executive Secretary of the Women's Institute has now been eliminated? MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honour able the Attorney-General. Does the Minister have any plans to convey to officials in Ottawa the strenous objection of many Manitoba taxpay ers to a $93, 000 grant to Kenneth Leishman and other convicts to establish an auto body repair shop here ? MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Atto rney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speake r, I would think that the honourable member, being a former Member of Parliament, would want to convey his wishes, his views in respect to this, directly to Ottawa. MR. SHERMAN : A supplementary, Mr. Speake r. I do wish and intend to do that but I am asking whether the Att orney-General of the province has any plans to speak for many Mani toba taxpa yers in this regard. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter, of course, that very clearly falls within the jurisdiction of Ottawa.

We hear certain press reports and statements, that's all that I have heard. Certainly much more information than that which we have heard today would be required in order to make any representations. MR. SHERMAN : Mr. Speaker, would the Minister undertake to consult with the leaders of the auto body repair industry here in Winnipeg and in Manitoba for their reaction to what

March 14, 1974 1387 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) .. .. . appears to be a fait accompli. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. Order please. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry state his point of order. MR. SHERMAN : I heard the term "hypothetical" used in connection with that question but it did not come from the Chair, Sir, and I wonder whether you feel it was a hypothetical question or whether the Minister was prepared to answer. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I think that we all have suf ficient problem from time to time managing our own affairs and business within our own areas of responsibility, and I know that is certainly true in my case. I have enough responsibility without wishing to venture forth and to look into areas which are the responsibility of the Federal Gover nment. Now I certainly understand that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry would like to tag the Provincial Government with the responsibility in respect to this particular grant, but I don't intend to accept it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR.

ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resour ces . Is the Minister considering placing emergency su pplies of sand and sandbags in the towns of Winkler and Gretna, so that the residents in southern Manitoba can protect themselves from expected flooding from the Pembina River and the Dead Horse Cr eek ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HON. SIDNEY GREEN Q. C. (Minister of Mines Resources and Environml;)ntal Management): Mr. Speaker, I thank the honour able member for having previously gi ��:en this matter to my attention ..

I can tell him that I have not been in the City for the past three days but his message has been relayed and I hope to have an answer for him srortly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. J. PAUL MARION (St. Boniface) : Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Health. Will the Minister advise whether the bed shortage, which has again cropped up at the Misericordia Hospital, is a temporary situation or part of a recurring shortage that will continue until new programs are initiated to deal with the whole question ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON .

SAUL MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Seven Oaks): The answer to both is yes. MR. MARION: A su pplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Is this the only hospital now experiencing a bed shortage in the Winnipeg area or are there other hospitals in the rural and urban areas experiencing the same kind of shortage ? MR. MILLER: Probably. MR.

MARION: Can the Minister advise as to the situation with respect to hospital beds at the Selkirk General Hospital during the last week, and will he indicate whether there is a shortage of nursing home beds in that community which is aggravating that specific problem? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, again that's possible. I don't know in particular about this particular area and how it has been identified. It is possible that there may be a problem in Selkirk but if it is, it's of a temporary nature. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WA LLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable the Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management. I wonder when the Honourable Minister would present the next flood report into the Legislature? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GRE EN: Mr. Speaker, I do have a verbal report that I received from my office just before coming into the House. The committee is meeting again on Thursday, March 21st, but I'll deal with the information that I have, which is not very definitive. On the Red River, the situation has not changed from the last forecas t.

Overbank flows are expected between the floodway inlet and the International Boundary. In the United States the U. S. weather bureau has lowered its forecast of two weeks ago due to the favorable weather conditions during that period . I don't know what today's weather does to that. The Pembina River - it is anticipated that there will be overbank flows in the reach of the river between Walhalla and Neche. Have I got that right? The Ass iniboine--knowing that people call Pierre,

1388 March 14, 1974 ORAL QUE STIONS (MR. GREEN cont'd) ... South Dakota "Peer" instead of Pierre, I'm not accepting here your pronunciation. The Ass iniboine River, due to the heavy snow accumulation in the Qu•Appelle bas in, the headwaters and middle basin, it is expec ted that there will be overba nk flows in the reach of the river between St. Lazare and Brandon. The Shellmouth Dam will be operated to control the flows from the upper headwaters. May I say, Mr.

Speaker, in answer to a previous question relative to the Shellmouth Dam, that these water installations generally are multi-purpose, and while it is true that they can be used for flood control when they are supposed to be used for conservation, the department during crisis water periods is under great pressure to use them for other than what they were originally installed for. For instance, the Red River Floodway, if it is used in a particular fashion, can reduce water levels south of St.

Norbert, but that was not the reason for the installation and up until now, under both administrations, we have resisted that kind of change in utilization just because of a pressure period, and I warn honourable members that we may again have arguments as to what is supposed to be done with a water control works and we will try to maintain it on the basis for which the control works were installed. In case of the reser voir, it can be used for both and will be used in such a way as to try to: maintain its-multi disciplinar y function.

In the small and intermediate river basins along the waters' western escarp ment, it is anticipated that there will be localized flooding in the areas between the International Boundary as far north as the Porcupine Hills where there is heavy snow accumulation. The extent of the amount of flooding will be related to the type of breakup in the area. The committee is to meet on March 21 st to assess the situation at that time, and of course, Mr. Speaker , if any emergencies arise, the committee will not be prevented from meeting in the interim. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Honourable Minister for his comments and his attention to the matter, which is very ... MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, overnight there's been additional falls of snow and rain for several hours •.• MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. McKENZIE : • . • and I wonder now if the matter doesn't deserve attention on a daily basis rather than a weekly basis, and Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Honourable Minister if he would take a look at the Duck and Drake Rivers which went over their banks last year and include those in his report. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the matter is being looked at on a daily basis. It is the Flood Forecasting Committee which is meeting next Thursday, March 21 st and my assump tion is not that no attention is given in the -interim. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON JOHNSTON: Mr. Speake r, my question is directed to the Minister of Mines and Na tural Resources, but before I put my question may I have the latitude to say that I think the Minister expressed Manitoba's position quite aptly and quite well in Grand Forks in the last few days. I think Manitobans appr eciate that.

My question to the Minister is - and it's a question which should have been directed to him but in his absence the Minister of Industry and Commerce took as notice, so I direct the ques tion again to the Minister: With respect to Saunders Aircra ft Company, is that company pres ently discussing or negotiating a multi-million dollar loan, a further multi-million dollar loan with MDC ? MR. GREE N: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I can't resist in exp ressing my appreciation to the Honourable Member for his remarks relative to the Garrison, and I espe cially am happy be cause he does so in relation to a policy which has been maintained consistently throughout.

The position I expr essed in Grand Forks is exactly the position that was expre ssed to the government of North Dakota, the position which is exp ressed in our communique, the posi tion that we took previously, and I welcome the House Leader of the Liberal Party indicating that he supports that position because I did not get that impressi on from some of the ques tions that have been asked by some of his colleagues .

Having buttered me up in that way, I have to tell the hon ourable member that I do not consider it app ropriate to discuss every app lication for funding that is being made to the Manitoba Development Corpor ation. The Corpora tion will be before the Committee on Tuesday,

March 14, 1974 1389 ORAL QUE STIONS (MR. GREEN cont'd) •.. and the Saunders statement will be there and its projec tions, and the honourable member I'm sure will be able, from that meeting, to have the information that he likes . There is nothing secret about it and I will indicate that my impression is that Saunders is seeking additional funds, but having said that, I do not wish the answer to be an invitation for members of the House to ask about every application for funds that is before the Development Corporation, because that's not an appropriate subject for discussion. MR. GORDON JOHNSTON : Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Minister for his statement. I would ask him, would he ensure that the general manager or senior management people of every firm in which Manitoba has a majority equity position, will be brought before the Economic Development Committee for questioning? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I can't give that assurance but I can give him the as surance that the Chairman of the Manitoba Development Corpora tion, who is the man with supervisory responsibility in each of these areas, will be there, and I am sure that the Chairman will have available to him such additional people as he needs in order to. make intelligent answers to the honourable member's question. MR. GORDON JOHNSTON : By way of clarification, did I understand the Minister to say that the management of Saunders Aircraft would be present ? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I said that the Chairman of the Development Corporation will have with him such persons as he believes are necessary in order to be able to make intelligent answers to the honourable member's question. MR. GORDON JOHN STON: Then I would ask the Minister a final question. Would he ensure that the management of Misawa Homes Limited will be available for questioning? MR. GR EEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member knows full well that he has the same answer to that question as I made to the last question. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Jame s. MR. GE ORGE MINAKER (S t.

Jame s) : Thank you Mr. Speaker . My question is to the First Minister. I wonder if the First Minister can confirm or deny that Farley Mowat has made application to MDC for a loan to establish a publishing company in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: That, Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge is an incorrect rumour, as so many we have heard in recent days. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable the Minister of Labour and is related to the questions on Saunders Aircraft.

While Saunders is seeking additional funds, is Saunders also seeking additional manpower ? MR. PAULLE Y: Mr. Speaker, it has not been drawn directly to my attention. If the honourable member has information I would be pleased to receive it. And Mr. Speaker, if I may while I'm on my feet, the Honourable Member for Riel asked me a couple of ques tions yes terday pertaining to the University of Manitoba and the Associ ation of the Faculties there. I have now the answers for my honourable friend to the effect, Mr.

Speaker, that the application was filed on February 1st of last year, wherein the above association was seeking bargaining rights on behalf of some 1, 100 professors and librarians at the University of Manitoba. Following the filing of the application, some approximately 600 affected employees filed ob jections to the application. The Board, that is the Labour Board has held four hearings to this date on the matter, and in the interim counsel acting on behalf of the objecting employees took the matter to the Court of Queen's Bench and bitterly to the Court of Appeal.

The Board also held a representation vote among the affected employees to determine whether or not the majority desired the matter to continue before the Board, and out of 1, 143 affected employees a majority of those voting indicated they wished the matter to continue. Since that vote was held last November, the Board has held one week of hearings and the matter continues again on Monday next, March 18th through to March 22nd, and hopefully it will be resolved one way or another next week. I also understand, Mr.

Speaker, for the information of my honourable friend, that there is the ques tion of considering employees or personnel who may be exempt beyond the bounds of certification. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary related to the question I asked originally. Has Saunders filled the jobs for which it was recruiting in the United Kingdom?

1390 March 14, 1974 ORAL QUE STIONS MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would not be knowledgeable of that but I understand that Saunders is continuing operation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MARION: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to directmyquestion to the Attorne y General in view of the absence of the Minister responsible for Autopac. Will the Minister inform this House who Autop ac has refused to pay the $2, 50 0 claim by the trucker who damaged his vehicle on the winter road between Ilford and Oxford House? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speake r, I'm really glad that the honourable member asked that question because when I read the

article this morning by Mr. Cleverley I was extremely distressed. I probably should not have bee n surprised that now we have reached a point in the history of Manitoba when matters pertaining to civil litigation and claims for damages are going to be adjudicated on the front page of the Winnipeg Free Press. MR. MARION: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the Minister's comments and I would like to follow it up, though, with another appropriate question. Will the Minister advise whether truckers use these winter roads at their own peril or is there no government responsibility ? MR. PA WLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the rules of insurance and whether or not claims are to be paid pertain to the winter roads as well as any other road in Manitoba, and the same prin ciples of law prevail, and one could go on and on with a discussion of the legal standards and levels of requirement here, but I don't think it would be the appropriate forum. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE : Mr. Speaker, can I ask the Honourable Minister who pioneered the Auto pac legislation does the no-fault principle still apply ? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speake r, it's interesting to hear the Honourable Member for Roblin suddenly being interested in no-fault. It's the first time I've heard such an interest on his

part in that concept . Certainly when we were introducing it in a partial form two or three years ago, he was not interested. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell . MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Ru ssell): Thank you, Mr. Speake r. I have a question for the Attorne y-General too. Is it not a fact that the director, Mr. Dutton, of the Autopac did give the truckers assurance that they would be covered with insurance before they went out on the road? MR. PA WLEY: Mr. Speake r, I'm sure that Mr.

Dutton would give the truckers, if they had paid their insurance premium, assurance that they were covered with insurance. MR.• SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assi niboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speak er, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. He's not in the House - I'll direct it to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources resp onsible for, and I'm sure that he's more familiar with the question Pm going to ask than the other Minister. Has the government done any studies or market analysis of selling homes produced by Misawa outside the province and in other countries ? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the considerations relative to the Misawa Homes would be ones which were inves tigated by the Manitoba Development Corporation and the private enterp rise company, Misawa Homes (Japan) Limited, which produ ces I think 50, 000 homes a year in Japan. Those considerations and the fact that Misawa Homes (Japan) Limited poured a million dollars into the Province of Manitoba vis- a-vis this home company, all of those considerations would have been examined by the Manitoba Development Corporation prior to their participation in this proj ect.

I cannot indicate whether there is a document which I can refer to as a study. MR. PATRICK: A sup plementary, Mr. Speake r. I know the Minister had some dis cussion recently with Japanese officials with respect to the Misawa. Will any of these homes be sold or marketed in Japan where there is a very strong demand ? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker , I am unaware that Misawa Homes has considered marketing homes that have been built in Manitoba in Japan . They are very very ingenious people, Mr. Speaker, but I do not know whether that has been given consideration. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Has the MDC already committed a further loan to Misawa Homes ? MR. GRE EN: Mr. Speaker, the words "another loan" have some problem in my mind. I indicated that in addition to the initial funding which was roughly one million to

March 14, 1974 1391 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN cont'd) ... Misawa (Jap an) Limited and a roughly equivalent amount, altrough that's not exactly correct, Manitoba Development Corporation, there was an additional $600, 000 advanced by the Manitoba Development Corporation which I advised my honourable friend of, and an equivalent guarantee has been received from Misawa Homes (Japan) .

Now the total of those two after the initial investment is a million dollars, but it 7Jould be $500, 000 Development Corporation, $500, 000 guarantee Misawa (J apan), and that came after a loan of $600, 000, so our responsibility was reduced to that extent of the Japanese guarantee. That's my recollection. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the First Minister.

Is the First Minister or the government actively supporting the Manitoba MPs in their struggle to have more maintenance work on the aircraft which has been promised to be done in Manitoba that we've heard about, and the struggle we've heard about the past two days going on between the unions in Montreal and our MPs trying to have it come to Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker, there have been communications, both written and verbal, on a number of occasions with Ministers of the Federal Government with respect to the very same subject matter my honourable friend is referring to, namely, the possibility of the 727 model of aircraft being overhauled in Winnipeg. I might add that in addition to that we have had some research carried out and propose to follow up with additional presentation of argument and views to the Prime Minister within the very next few days. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: To the First Minister.

I wonder if he's in a pos ition in connection with this matter to report the findings of the government, and whether it is the government'.s position that the information on which the decision to take the Air Canada overhaul base out of Winnipeg was based - that is Air Canada's information and the information on which the Federal Government made the decision was false. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe I unders tand the Honourable Leader's question - the Leader of the Opposition.

I have expressed my views with respect to the accuracy of the information that was given by Air Canada over a period of many years starting, I suppose, as far back at 1949, from which year there was a periodic recurring dribbling, or an occasional erosion of whatever Air Canada's present overhaul capacity, various administrative operations out of Winnipeg transferred to Montreal.

I might add that in the communications which have been made to the federal authorities in the pas t, we have made reference to this and we have documented in a rather thorough way the entire case history of this matter, and are relating it to the 727 overhaul question in an attempt to obtain what we choose to call proportionality of treatment in Canada, and it's not only a case of Air Canada overhaul of 727 aircraft, it relates to the changes that took place in the mid-sixties with respect to other kinds of aircraft; it also has to do with the extent to which the Government of Canada is willing to put public funds into the development, support and development of De Havilland Aircraft in Toronto and Canadair in Montreal, but are not willing to put any in terms of future development of aircraft industry capability in Western Canada.

All of ttis has been put to the federal authorities on a number of occasions over the past several years. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary. Is it not the position of the government that the just ification for part of the work being done is in fact the misrepresentation of the facts by Air Canada at the time the decision was to take the Air Canada overhaul base out of Winnipeg'? MR. SCHREYER: Clearly so, Mr. Speaker, and that was certainly expressed in very deliberate and succinct terms, concise terms.

I can recall one example .that was certainly stated on the record, was at a meeting of the Transport Committee of the House of Commons back in 1968 and '69, and we have continued to draw the fallacy of Air Canada statements to the attention of the federal authorities since. A MEMBER: That• s right, constantly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MARION: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my questions to the Honourable the Minister for Health.

Has the Minister received a report, even preliminary, on the inventory of hospital beds and their use; and if not, does he anticipate receiving this kind of report? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure it will be a report on the actual number of

1392 March 14, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. MILLER cont'd) •.. beds, etc. There is an inventory of the total number of beds and services that is being developed in Health and that is be ing--it's a constant review. I don't think it will ever really come to an end. It will be updated constantly and it's being looked at constantly, so there's no study per se which I can suggest to the member is available at this time. Mr.

Speaker, while I'm on my feet I wonder if I might reply to a question that the Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition put to me some time ago, and I'm sorry that it took so long to get the answer. It was regarding--I think your question was: "What is the relationship between The Pas Metis Development Corporation and the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporat ion ?" And the relationship of MHRC to The Pas Metis Development Corporat ion was that of a con tractor.

The corporation ," that is The Pas Metis Development Corporation, supplied the labour for the construction of the units ; the material was supplied by MHRC. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MARION: A supp lementary to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. Does tr e Minister intend to announce a sp ecific program during the current Session of this House to deal with the over-all problem of hospital and nursing home bed shortages together with a timetable for the implementation of that prog ram ? MR. MILLER: · Mr.

Speaker, certainly during the course of my Es timates these matters will be discussed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker , I thank the Minister for his answer with respect to The Pas Metis Development Corporation. I wonder if he can indicate to the House whether the financial difficulties of the corporation have meant that the government and the people of Manitoba have lost money with respect to the work being undertaken. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, not to my knowledge.

The corporation, The Pas Metis Development Corporation, that's the CDC, I believe it is- that's a federal body - and there was no provincial financing there. The materials supp lied were of course used in the homes and are in the units now, and the homes are under construction and should be completed this spring. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can indicate whether the auditors of the MHRC are satisfied that the materials in fact have been handled as they were to be handled by the company, and that there are no indications of waste or misuse of materials. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot indicate whether or not someone is or is not sat isfied at this point in time. All I can report is that the homes are being constructed; that the MHRC is in the pr ocess of finishing them ; that the people who were doing the constructing, some of them were originally employed by The Pas Metis Development Corporation. When they went out of business or they stopped operation many of the same people simp ly continued working on the houses to complete them for MHRC. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder then if the Minister is in a position to account for the reason why The Pas Metis Development Corporation ceased business wit!- MHRC when he indicated that it was only involved in the question of labour when he indicated further, when the Minister of Northern Affairs indicated further that there was a Northern Manpower program involved in financing the labour. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, there is two components to this question.

Northern Man power was involved in the training of these people and as a matter of fact they must have been successful because some of these people are now working on the construction of these units. Insofar as why this particular group, The Pas Metis Development Corp oration, went out of business, I don't know. I have to assume there was more involved than just the MHRC. This group was given funding by the CDC . I suppose they may have undertaken other proj ects perhaps under different conditions, and as a result this may have aggravated their situation.

But as far as MHRC is concerned, their interest is solely in seeking labour, the labour content, from this particular corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Honourable the Minister of Finance and it's basic ally for clarification, regarding the report that he tabled this afternoon. I'm wondering, are these the financial statements of the boards, commissions and agencies that the Provincial Auditor has audited or they're not--l'm looking for, like, the Film

March 14, 1974 1393 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. McKEN ZIE cont'd) ... Classification Board and, say, the Manitoba Boxing and Wrest ling Commission, and they're not included. I wonder could the Minister clarify? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, the contents of this booklet are as shown on the front page and the index thereof. MR. McKENZ IE : Mr. Speaker, then for clarification, I asked the Honourable Minister of Finance where is the one of the Film Classification Board and the Manitoba Boxing and Wrest ling Commission? MR. CHERNIAC K: Mr.

Speaker, it's probably in the records of the Clerk where the original report would have been filed if it were one required to be filed under the legislation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHA M: A supplementary. While the Minister is looking into that would he also find out where the Law Reform Commission Report is, the HumanR ights Commission etc. , etc. , etc. , ? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, the report that's being asked for now is nothing to do with financial statements, and what this is is the financial statements of boards and commis sions.

If the honourable member would look at the book he would know that it does not contain reports other than those that are financial. SECOND READING - GOV ERNMENT BILLS - BILL NO. 7 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GR EEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you now proceed to the second readings of bills as they stand on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Bill No. 7 and the amendment thereto. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, I want to continue making some further comment on this particular piece of legislation which has, I think quite correctly, captured the attention of most members in this Chamber and one which we intend to deal with for some time yet. Because Mr. Speaker, it's one of these bills that the longer we examine it, the longer we study it, the more interesting the bill becomes, the more facets of the bill become known to us as individual members take the time to study the various clauses. Also, Mr.

Speaker, it is somewhat disconcerting to us that we have a piece of legislation of this kind put before us with such general and disarming remarks made about it by the Minister introducing the bill, that one could indeed have been lulled to sleep by his general remarks and undoubtedly we could well have perhaps failed to grasp the significance of the bill, and might well indeed have allowed it to pass through this Chamber far too quickly. Mr. Speaker, successive speakers -I think of the speaker for Fort Garry, the Member for Fort Garry, I think of the Member from St.

James particularly, I think of my friend and colleague the Member from Swan River - have brought different parts of this bill together, and perhaps the Member from Riel summed it up the best in terms of our position is that in total there is more bad than there is good, and we're talking about principle at second reading on this bill.

And we certainl y, even having had the. privilege of hearing from the Minister of Labour at some length and having had the. privilege of hearing some of his other colleagues at some length, have been given no indication, none whatsoever, that they are seriously prepared to acknowledge some of the serious failings of this bill that we believe are there. Yes, Mr. Speaker, they have indicated their willingness to have this bill re-examined at committee stage; to have it--to possibly accept certain amendments, but, Mr.

Speaker, that's a long way from satisfying us that the kind of amendments that the Honourable Minister of Labour is prepared to accept, indeed that the government is prepared to accept, would come anywhere near, would come anywhere near meeting some of the ju stifiable concerns that we have expressed in the debate of this bill. Mr. Speaker, I think an interesting question that has to be asked is: where does this bill come from? You know, legislation comes through this Chamber in various different means. Usua lly it comes as a result of organized pressure from an organized group within our society.

I think of the kind of legislation that, for instance, the Minister of Ag riculture would introduce as a result of pressure from a farm group or organization; I think of the kind of legislation the Minister of Labour would and has introduced as a resu lt of pressure from

1394 March 14, 197 4 BILL NO. 7 (MR. ENNS cont'd) ... various groups such as organized labour, when they're dealing with labour legislation; I think of the kind of legislation that comes into this Chamber from other groups, professional groups, law societies, profess ional groups, doctors, medical groups, teachers.

This kind of legislation comes to the attention, grievances are brought to the attention of the government, they're brought to the attention of a particular Minister, and if the government of the day sees that there is in fact an injustice or that a particular aspect of our society could be improved by bringing in legislation then the government of the day acts upon that kind of legislation. Now there's of course also another ... that legislation comes to us; political par ties from time to time do take very specif ic positions on certain matters. These matters are well aired at the time of an election campaign.

Indeed, Mr. Speake r, they become a central part of a political party's election platf orm. Perhaps the most notable one that would come to mind in recent times, the well known position this government took with respect to compul sory pu blic government auto insurance. It was a question that they put fairly before the people of Manitoba,. when the people of Manitoba elected them the people of Manitoba had every right to expect that the government move in this directi on. I'm only suggesting, Mr. Speak er, outlining different ways in which legislation is initiated and brought into this Chamber.

I'm suggesting by and large it's borne as a result of the kind of things that a particular political party believes very strongly in, then when put in a position of power introduces into this Chamber. Most legislation I honestly suggest comes to us as a result of trying to correct or improve our general social well being in this province and the way this comes to our attention or to any government's attention, to any Minister's attention, is by the responsi ble representation by various groups that ask for this kind of legislation, whether it's labour, farm, profess ional or what have you.

So '1 ask the Honourable Minister of Labour who's introducing this bill, where does this particular bill come from or where is this particular bill initiated ? Mr. Speaker, we've debated this bill for the last month in this Chamber, I've heard no great outcry one way or the other from the very people aff ected. We're told by the members opposite that the civil servants today are second-class citizens. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would suspect that I should get some mail either condemning me for a position that I have taken which is essentially one of concern the direction that this government is taking the civil service into, or one of prai se.

I would suspect that if the government or the Minister were receiving a great deal of mail or protests or laudatory remarks one way or the other on this subj ect matter, that they, Sir, would be - particularly if they were in favour of their position - would be read into the records from time to time to indicate the position or the kind of support this bill was being received - was received within the civil service. Mr. Chairman, I suspect that none of this has happene d.

I can at least honestly say that aside, aside from the anonymous conversations that I have had with civil servants who have asked me,privately and earnestly to for heaven's sakes watch this bill, this is a bill that is taking the civil service into an area which most civil servants are not, when confronted with the actual facts, in agreement with.

I know the Honourable Minister of Labour has indicated to us the results of a poll or of a referendum on the subj ect matter, and really, Sir, one has to ask how that question matter was brought to the attention of the civil servants of this province in the first instance. We're aware that we have some activists within the Civil Service, and there's nothing wrong with that.

We're also aware that they have since the debate in this Cbamber pull ed in their horns somewhat, because of indiscretion on their part they have realized that they have probably jeopardized their particular position or the position that they were promoting within the Civil Service. So that in itself I suspect has been a direct be nefit as a result of our pro longing the debate on. this issue. But, Mr.

Speake r, the fact of the matter is, the fact of the matter is that this party, this government, never ident ified this matter, this freeing, this emancipation of the civil servants as being part and parcel of their long held doctrinaire belief of what has to and what has not to be done in government. In fact, Mr. Speake r, the very reverse is true. This government had such a laissez -faire approach to this bill that last year when introduced they withdrew it, they withdrew it.

So obviously if it was a question of a burning issue with any members opposite then the bill must have been even_more important during the last time

March 14, 1974 1395 BILL 7 (MR . ENNS cont•d) . .... we sat , Sir, because after all we were just going into an election and we were going to make it possible for these same civil servants to become involved in the political process MR . PAULLEY : I wonder, Mr . Speaker , if my honourable friend would allow me to correct a statement that he •s just made in reference to the position of the bill at the last session. I think the record would show, Mr. Speaker, and I trust my honourable friend will accept this, that the bill was not withdrawn, it died on the Order Paper·, and I suggest that there is a difference .

MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR . ENNS : Yes , Mr. Speaker , there is a technical difference and one that I accept. It was not withdrawn, it died on the Order Paper as the Minister has indicated. However , it certainly doesn•t detract from my argument, in fact it probably strengthens it.

If they're Prepared to let this baby die, die a cruel and bitter death , that obviously again what I was say ing is they weren't really that concerned with whether the Manitoba Civil Servants had these great additional powers that the Minister now subscribes that this bill will provide them with or whether they did n1t. When faced with the opportunity of freeing the Manitoba civil servants from the bondage they have been placed in by 100 years of cruel, oppressive Liberal and Con servative governments, when having that opportunity, they chose to let the matter die. So, Mr .

Speaker, I only make the point because this is obvious that it's not a question that they approach with a kind of doctrinaire vision thnt they approach some other issues with and which they have in all fairness to them, served notice to the general public that it would be their intention to do should they have the reigns of government and the responsibility of government . No , Mr . Speaker , in fact their conduct in the last session raises the question considerably.

The fact that they would prefer to let this matter be dropped, to let it, to use the Minister's term, just come to a natural death, that indicates to me a kind of, you know, a kind of basis, you know , deception involved , one that as far as the public of Manitoba is concerned, an uneasiness on their own part that the introduction of this kind of a bill would somehow not find favour , not find general acceptance by the public of Manitoba and for that reason of course the bill did not proceed any further last session. Mr.

Speaker, then you ask yourself why is the bill, why is the bill coming forward, why is the bill coming forward at this particular time? We1ve established, Mr . Speaker, that this bill does not come to us in the usual manner that bills are initiated. There was no, to my knowledge, S ir, and the Minister has not indicated this, there was no tremendous pressu re on the government by the very people affe cted to bring in this bill. None of us in opposition have ever received any amount of mail crying for these changes so you know, I just want to make - th at's not how the bill was initiated.

Secondly, it's not a position that the government has long held as part and parcel of its political p latform it's not something that they promised the people of Manitoba that they would do once elected. As a matter of fact , Mr. Speaker, I've just indicated previously they have gone to some ends to at least not draw attention to the people of Manitoba about this bill just prior to an election when that would have been the case had the bill proceeded in its normal way the last session. Mr. Speaker, the question then can be surely asked, "Why is the bill before us ?" Who benefits ?

And what is the real purpose of this bill? Well, Mr .

Speaker, I suggest , I suggest it is here for a very real purpose, I suggested one of the purpo ses the last time I spoke on this particular bill, and despite the comments made at that time by the Honourable House Leader and his general ap�roach that the government is simply jus t another employer of peoples, which I would take issue with and argue with, perhaps will if I have the time, let me indicate to you, Sir, that it is my belief, it is my belief that the government wishes to legalize what they are already doing in far· too many instances - the politicization of the civil service is to be accelerated. Mr.

Speaker, let me put this reaso nable position before you, the "initial" advantages, and I underline the word initial because unfortunately, and this is what we and the members of the opposition have been trying to tell the government, there is no advantage in this bill to anybody. The peo ple of Manitoba will be the losers and successive government will be the losers and certainly the civil ser vants will be the losers. A MEMBER: Hear , hear . MR . ENNS : Because as I indicated to the Honourable the Minister I can predict the

139 6 March 14, 1974 BILL 7 (MR . ENNS cont1d} ••••. next significant clauses to be added to this bill .. They will be the removal of the Security of Tenure clauses . I can Predict that to him as sure as I have a reasonable opportunity of once being a member of some future administration, that obviously will be the next clauses, and I think the Civil Service people should be aware of that . Should be aware of that. This is the kind of ball game we're getting into.

So the first initial advantage of course goes to the government in power, because essentially what the bill does , or what it will do, enable, is to flush out and to allow the freer movement and to encourage the freer participation of the government supporters within the Civil Service . I don't say this you know, with any degree of hostility. It is a question of logic, It is a question of simple logic, Do you really mean to tell me , Sir , that you know the known Conservatives or the known Liberals in the Civil Service will feel as free, will feel as free to participate as the known NDP memb ers of the party?

The same argument could be made if there was a Conservative administration -- you know it's always easier to support the present than to fight against it, particularly if you1re fighting your boss or your job promotions or your pay is at stake, So it doesn't • .. A MEMBER: Will the honourable member permit a question? MR. ENNS: Ce rtainly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. WALLY JOHANNSON (St . Matthews): Yes . The honourable mem ber brought up the question of Se curity of Tenure.

Judging by statements made by the Member for Fort Garry and his own leader, how much security of tenure do the present members of the Civil Service whom they have identified as NDPrs have in the event that they would be at some time the government of this province ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside, MR.

ENNS: They have the security of tenure clauses that have taken years to build up into the Civil Service Act, that have taken succe ssive governments and years and tradition to honour and to keep, and it is only on exceptional circums tances, only and usually, usually by mutual consent when a separation takes place. Mr. Chairman, that, however, is some thing that the Honourable Member from Wellington or St. Matthews , pardon me St . Matthews, is prepared to treat lightly and to see disappear from the Civil Service Act . --( Interjection)- Well, Sir, he says that that is not his wish. Mr.

Speaker, I was saying before I was interrupted with the question that it is not an unnatural assumption to make and it could be made with respect to any party or any government that is in power. That this kind of encouragement for political activity on the part of the Civil Service would tend to favour or would tend to make that activity more pronounced with supporters of the government of the day than opposed, lt' s just a natural reaction on the part of the people.

I say it would be the same if it were a Liberal administration or a Conservative administration or if it were an NDP , as it is now an NDP administration, We are dealing with an NDP administration and we are dealing with a government that has shown a particular bent on exerting pressure on the Civil Service in political terms and obviously, Sir, tends to maximize that particular ability that they have. They have done so, Mr . Spea ker, in this bill as has been pointed out by other speakers , in a way that alarms us , that concerns us .

In the very area of - if there 1s a question of Civil Service promotion or demotion, or decrease in pay or something like that involved because the question of his merits are in doubt, what does the bill provide for ?

Not for an appeal to a "reasonably" in dependent group - and I use the term reasonably necause I think we've gone around the circle on the question of how independent can any group be , but no we don't have the appeal mechanism written in the bill that it would apply to the Civil Service Commission or perhaps some out side body, the Minister , the political person maintains the firm control for this kind of appeal mechanism.

Precisely where there is an argument of the kind that should not be resolved where the question of politics comes into, the question of whether a man or woman has been wrongly refused a promotion, when a man or woman's merits or qualifications for a job are in question, these judgme nts will not be made by something that we could call independent, but by the political person involved, namely the Minister. Mr. Speaker, that sim ply is not acceptable.

The Minister has given us no indication in his remarks , nor have any of the other colleagues given us any remarks that he refuses, that he would indicate that this was one of the areas that he would be prepared to consider. Mr. Speaker , if anything we should

March 14 , 1974 139 7 BILL 7 (MR . ENNS cont1d) ••••• be taxing ourselves to the problem of strengthening the independent p,ature of the Civil 'Service Commission as such, we should be examining the actual structure of the c ivil Service Commission er's role, and we should be dedicating our energies to trying to maintain a greater degree of independency within the Civil Serv ice , not destroy it, not to destroy it, Sir . Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the Honourable Minister of Labour who has, after all, served in this House perhaps longer, indeed longer than anybody else, but has subsequently had the opportunity of working with civil servants longer than anyone else in this House, he has worked with civil servants appointed by Liberal administrations, appointed by Conservative adminis trations, ap,d now he '.s working With civil servants appointed by the New Democratic Party government administration.

He , Sir, among the few, has probably had greater experience in this field with respect to the kind of Civil Service and the capacity, the ability of the Service to respond to requests for help, requests for information, and in general the kind of conduct that was possible between civil servants, opposition MLA& government MLAs and what have you.

Sir, he hasn't recited to us , as ide from maybe a very personal relatively minor matter, the question involved in employment of somebody within his family, but certainly he has made no case and no issue that the manner and way in which the reasonably independent Civil Service Commi ssion organized and ran a show for the Civil Service of the Province of Manitoba, was unjust or was unfair. He 's made no particular case in that regard.

He attempts to make out a case, Sir, that the civil servants are a particularly aggrieved group within our society; that their rights are being trampled on , that they lack something that the rest of us enjoy. Well, Mr .

Speaker, I think even he would agree that we live in a pretty, pretty free country, pretty free province , and I would SU§pe ct, Sir, that if any group of Manitobans was being trampled on, being oppressed, and their rights withdrawn, that we would not have too much difficulty in hearing from them; that there would have been letters to our newspapers ; there would have been, honest or otherwise, there would have been letters to our individual MLAs, there would have been an organized attempt made on the part of these oppressed people to have these rights restored. In fact , I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, put in the manner the Minister of Labour likes to put it , that that might well have been one of the first cases dealt with by our Civil Rights or Human Rights Commission, in terms of correcting some long, long-held grievances by a group of people. Now, Mr . Speaker, all of this is nonsense . We're really, really reasonably close if we believe , if we take at face value what we're saying in this Chamber.

If we really only want to facilitate and make it a little clearer on what basis political civil servants can become actively involved in politics and not be unduly penalized, which they should not be, then let's address ourselves to those particular sections; let' s worry about the particular sections as they apply to the necessary leave of absence the Civil Service should take.

Let's apply our selves to the necessary mechanism that has to be built in there , protective mechanisms that have to be built in there , that in the event the civil servant returns back to his job that he is not and will not arbitrarily be treated in any vindictive manner by a government of the day. And, Mr . Speaker, I point out to you all the more reason, all the more reason not to have clauses in there such as this, that the appeal

section will be handled pretty well by the political person involved, 13 (

a) if I'm not mistaken: "Where an unsuccessful candidate for a position is an employee who is of the opinion that the appointment of another person to the position was based on matters other than merit, that employee may, in writing, appeal to the Minister, who shall appoint a person to inquire into and investigate the matter and submit a report thereon to the Minister, who, after receiving the report, shall decide the appeal." The Mi nister shall decide the appeal, "and the Minister's decision thereon is final." Well, Mr .

Speaker, that's the area that we should be worrying about, making sure that a person's rights aren't trampled on. If a person wants to run for a particular political party, and he runs , and maybe he is unsuc cessful and wants to come back, and can come back and should be able to come back, to his same employment, but he may face a vindictive Minister, Sir. And what does the Act say ? The Act says he has to face that vindictive Minister. There is nobody else to appeal to.

139 8 March 14 , 1974 BILL 7 (MR. ENNS contrd) Well now, Mr . Speake r, surely then we're talking at cross pur p oses . Either the fellows opposite aren't being so really straightforward with us on this matter, that that is not their only concern.

I suspect that their concern has a great deal to do, a great deal to do with the kind of broaden ing of the political activity on the p art of civil servants generally, whereby they can have the ag reps and the social workers and the health nurses as they make their rounds throughout the country or hand our their welfare cheques , be in the same position to hand out political p ropaganda and p olitical appe al notices for a particular political party . Well, Mr. Speak er , I think we really have two debates going on in this Chamber and we're not always meeting each other's arguments head on.

I think we ha ve , Sir, indicated that there is a great deal of concern in several p assages. 11ve raised only this particular one. The one that was raised by the Member for St. James I think specificall y, the one soliciting funds, I think the Honourable Member for Charleswood also raised it, is equally difficult for us to accept and to live with. Mr . Sp eaker , you know, there is , in an open society, in a democratic society, sufficient difficulty to deal with this p roblem of how political parties are funded, how funds are solicited. Mr.

Speak er, you know, we may be addressing ourselves to the question of whether or not they should be funded p rivately at all, or whether we should not be moving into the field of public financing of all political parties to take away that grey area of concern. Mr. Speak er, I don•t advocate that . I'm just suggesting some of the questions that have been raised on this matter , have they been raised -- why are they be ing raised ?

When there are those p roponents usually from the opposite side , those p roponents who suggest that future political parties or future elections should be publicly financed, they do so , to somehow because they feel that there 's inequity to some extent , it leads , it can lead to a degree of corruption from time to time with the question of soliciting of funds , compromising of one's p rincipl es , of one 's positions . Mr .

Speak er, to some extent there is of course some validity in these arguments , and we have for that very reason -- virtually any government, both on the federal scene and the p rovincial s-cene, have strengthened year by year; we 've made different attempts to draw different regulations , to imp rove the manner and way, to curtail the manner and way in which funding of political parties is carried on. Fuller disclosure ; definite limitations as to how , limitations as to how much in amounts . Well, Mr . Speaker , what are we doing here ?

We are now asking that highway engineer who in his daily job, you know, has to come out there with his ruler or his spike and inspect the performance of a contractor who just got the contract, a half a million dollar contract, from the government to build a road, and it's largely based on his daily checks as to if the contract calls for a six-inch lift of coarse gravel followed by a tw o-inch lift of fine sand and then to be finished with a three-inch topping of blacktop , something like that. lt's largely his daily checks that will determine whether or not the contractor will be paid . Now, Mr.

Sp eaker , why place that engineer in that kind of p osition or the contractor in that kind of position where , if at election time and the contractor is having some difficulty in making ends meet on this particular job, he could sure make ends meet if instead of a 5- inch lift, you kn ow, or 6-inch lift, the 4-inch lift would be passed by a civil servant.

And if $1, 000 or $2, 000 helps making that possible to the right p olitical party , then, Sir, I suggest that we are not doing a service , we are doing a tremendous disservice; we are going backwards in an attempt to clean up and to improve the funding p ractices of this or any other p olitical process . So, Mr . Speake r, you know, these are the kind of specific sections of the bi ll that we take exception to, the Minister has not addressed himself to at all in his respon se .

He claims that his purpo se in introducing the bill is essen tially the only one which we agree that there is no argument about , namely that civil servants should be able to offer themselves for pu blic office. And we also agree that if there is a question, if there is some question or some un fairness in how this is possible , then that should be attended to and looked after in this bill. But, Mr . Speak er, we really believe that we cannot as a respons ible opp osition allow this bill to pass in this manner and take our chances .

We think, Sir, that this bill should be withdrawn, and if this Minister wants to accept some degree of consensus of this House, he should re-introduce a bill that would contain at least some of the concerns expr essed by the members of the opp osition.

March 14, 1974 1399 BILL 7 (MR. ENNS cont'

d) Now, Mr. Speaker, just in conclusion, is this not the kind of a matter that should be dealt with to some extent by consensus of this Chamber ? Is there any advantage to be had to make this a highly partisan kind of a position?

And I ask honourable members opposite , recognizing that, you kn ow, we live in a democratic process , that just, Sir , as we choose and we elect you, Sir, as our steward and as our Speaker, you Sir, you would know, in fact you would not accept the position if a significant portion of the House refused to support you and voted against you at the time of your nomination to that position, Sir.

Your capacity and your capability of government this Chamber rests on a general acceptance on the part of all of us , even though that is sometimes somewhat camouflaged, but the recognition, I want to assure you, is there on all of us of your stewardship of this Chamber, as it has to be .

Now Sir , I suggest that not unlike a major change in the Civil Service legislation of this province , a Civil Service that at one time or other, maybe a Conservative administration, a Liberal administration, or a New Democratic Party administration as it is now, we'll live with and we'll deal with and we'll require the mutual co-operation of; that surely this is the kind of a bill on which there should be attempted to reach a degree of consensus within this Chamber before forcing it, before ramming it any further. Mr.

Speaker, to date we have received no indication from the Honourable Minister, from the honourable mem bers of the government, that they are in fact prepared to consider some of the serious objections that we have raised, and for this reason, Sir , we can 1t see this bill proceeding any further. We also see it, Sir, as our responsibility , you know, to await -- and we are hearing more and more people, have more and more people coming to us expressing their concern about this bill.

By the very nature of the bill, by the very nature of the persons, they do so of course in privacy, but nonetheless there is in my judgment no question that the civil servants ofthis Province of Manitoba would make an earnest repeal and soundly reject the bill in its present form, knowing now what some of the implications of that bill are . Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. . .. cont1d on next page

1400 March 14, 1974 BILL NO. 7 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Cr escentwood. MR. HARVEY PATT ERSON (Cres centwood): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr. Speaker, we've listened to considerable debate on this bill and, you know, it really doesn't surprise me that the members of the Conse rv ative Party have taken the position that they have taken. It' s been historical that they dig in their heels and strengthen their backs , flex their muscles, whenever we talk about progre ssive moves in society. Now why they do this is hard to rea son sometimes, but it just seems that that always happens.

And I just wonder if they shouldn't consider removing the word "Progressive" from the title of their party and just call them the plain Conserv ative Party, which would be to me a more clear definition of what they really stand for because it seems to me that the progres siveness of the Progress ive Co nserv ative Party has disappeared, been allowed to diminish in recent years, and as I stated the other day, Mr. Speaker , it's my opinion that they're the for ces of reaction and they have been, will continue to be , and it seems that they are determined to support that position.

It has been my experience that they' ve opposed unions over the years. You can read in history where they opposed the institution of pu blic education. They opposed Medicare. Anything that is of a progress ive nature that would benefit the people as a whole, the whole society, they always seem to oppose it, but in this particular bill, Bill No. 7, I seem to get the impression that they are afraid of something .

They seem to be afraid of the Civil Service they don't want the Civil Service to become first class citizens like the rest of us, they seem to think all of a sudcen that if the Civil Service get the right that the rest of us have , that all of a sudden th e fortunes of the Conse rvative Party will further deteriorate in the Province of Manitoba , and I can't share their concern in that regard because the Civil Service of Manitoba has been a good organization, a good bunch of people working in the service, and I ·don't think they would take that type of attitude that is being implied by the speakers from the opposite side of the House.

Now the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, he seems to take a different slar.t in his debates on this particular bill. He starts out with great gusto of what it's all about and how he intends to deal with the question , and he seems to end up apologizing for his particular position on the bill. He sort of weakens as he goes along, and I can appreciate his position because he really hasn't impresse d me to be the real type of hard-line Conserv ative that some of the other members have express ed themselves to be.

Yo u will recall in the last election that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry more or less ran on his own hook. He rejected the support of the GGG which was the super Conserv a tive power in the last election and the Honourable Member for Fort Garry said, No ' thank you, I don't need that kind of support, and he went out on his own hook and he proved to the Co n ser vative Party that he didn't need that kind of super power to get elected. He done it on his own hook, and I give him full credit for that.

So I would think that he is some kind of an in dependent Co nservative and this is the tenor that I take from his speeches on this bill also. So I wouldn't be too prone to put him in the same bag as some of the other speakers that have been speaking on Bill 7.

And I just wonder if when he's talking about this, when the Con servatives talk about this in their caucus if they consult the Member for Fort Garry as to what his real po sition on Bill 7 is or does he just go merrily along on his own little way and try to do the best that he can on a particular problem I also noticed the the Member for Fort Garry was somewhat disturbed about the posi tion of his caucus on the advertisement on the Mineral Tax in The Co-operator. It was quite evident that he didn't know about that particular Act.

So I just wonder what the consu ltation is within the Conservative caucus in regard to the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. Is he sort of left out in the cold and not told what's going on in his own caucus, because to anyone sitting on this side, and I'm sure many other members also, could notice his surpr ise and reaction when that ad was made public in this House.

So I would say that pos sibly he doesn't fit in the Cons ervative caucus too well and this is why I get the impress ion that he's more or less speaking on his own , taking his own independent stand and hopefully that he can accomplish something in that way. There has been a couple of speakers on the opposite side accusing us tf being follow the leader type - somebody just more or less raises their hand and we all follow in line and run along like little sheep. Well that may be an impression that the members of the Con ser vative Party get but when you have a party or any organization you have to have a leader

March 14 , 1974 1401 BILL NO. 7 (MR. PATTERSON cont'd) .... in order to be effective and I think it's safe to say that in the New Democratic Party we have a very capab le leader . His stature is such in the politics of Manitoba that it can't seriously be questioned; his abil ity has been proven time and time again; his integrity is without question and just his political know how is something to behold and something to watch as to how he keeps going on at the pace that he does and bringing the policies of the government to the people of Manitob a.

But when you get the inference that the members of this party are just follow the leader typ es well that certainly is not quite true in that sense because they give a different connotation of what follow the leader is and what really takes place. But when you look at the Conservative Party it's true that they don't follow their leader because itjus t seems quite apparent that they don't quite know who the leader is of the .. MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . WAR NER H. JORGENSON (Morris): ... Mr.

Chairman, I was simply going to ask the honourable member if he could indicate what particular piece of legislation or what item he's speaking on. I understand that the subject before the Hou:se right now is Bill No. 7. He hasn't come near it in the last ten minutes. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think the point is well taken. I was just going to call the honourable member 's attention to the fact that we're on Bill No. 7, amendments to the Civil Service. Act. The honourable member. MR. PATTERS ON: Thank you, Mr.

Speak er, I was just looking at the remarks made by the Honourable Member for Roblin the other night and it seemed to me that he travelled along a winding road to get to Bill 7 and I was just more or less following in his footsteps , and that's the way that you arrive at a discus sion in this Chamber -- (Interjection)-- Well, the Honourab le Member for Ro blin, he's a- - I will say one thing about him , he's a top notch defenceman anyway, and he does get around to the point of discussing Bill 7 as he goes along through his discourse.

But he was talking about follow the leader and that's particularly what I was commenting on at this time, Mr. Speaker , and when I was interrupted I was on the point of the Conservative leader and as I said that they haven't quite made their mind up wh o's leading them in the debate on Bill No. 7 and they just don't seem to have no particular direction on Bill 7. They seem to be going at it, coming at it from all angles so I really can't see how they can accuse other people of not following the leader when they're not too good at it them selves. Especially when they don't know who the leader is.

So when you have members running hither and yon and scattering all over the place I can understand the reason that they haven't really formed a solid policy or conclusion on Bill 7 up to thi s time. They also mentioned that, you know, when wepoimd our desk on this side of the House that when one does it they all do it, it's just like a rhythm that they pick up , and all I would say on that point, Mr. Spea ker, is that in any typ e of organization whether it be this House or unions or polit ics or whatever you have , if you aren't organized you aren't successful.

So you have to have some type of organization in order to be successful, even if it comes down to desk pounding. I would think that in that sense that we made a fairly good contribution to the process of the House in that area. And I would suggest to the honourab le members of the Conservative Party that maybe in their caucus sometime they should practice desk pounding a little bit to make it a little more effective. But a number of the: member s opposite have talked about discrimination in Bill 7, if Bill 7 ever comes to pass.

Now how they can read from Bill 7 how discrimination is going to occur is just beyond my comprehension because I can't really see that, and when you take an overview of the proposed amendments to Bill 7 it's just not there. There is no insinuation that discrimination will occur , can occur or should occur. It seems to me that the members of the Conser vative Party are exper ts and I think they're fully qualified at reading between the lines. They can read between the lines, they can insin uate and they can really do a good job at it.

I give them credit for that. --(Interjection)-- My honourab le colleague from Radisson says, by innuendo. Well that may be so but tha t's his exper ience in the past four or five years in this House as to what he 's learned. But just in the brief time that I've been here I find that the reading between the lines is more of a subject of debate rather than what is printed in black and white and I would seriously request the members of the Conservative Party to read the amendment in a realistic light and really see what it means.

Don't look for boogeymen or things that aren't there but just look at what the amendments are really trying to do, and I think this is where you have to really get down to the core of the debate.

1402 March 14 , 1974 BILL NO. 7 (MR. PATTERS ON cont'

d) But in the debate on Bill 7 a number of times it has been mentioned that the old socialist philo sophy keep s rearing its head and keeps coming back to haunt the socialist pa rty. And there was considerable mention made of the Regina Manifesto as to what implications that has on the New Democratic Party of the day. Well you know it really all started back in Calgary, Alberta , that free enterpr ise province in --(Interjection)-- Pardon? Right, and that was Bob Edwards in the "C algary Eyeopener" that was prominen t in those days.

So it really didn't start in Regina as they always try to give it the inference that it did. It started in Calgary and it just so happ ened that the next meeting was scheduled for R egina and that's where the biu eprint of the CCF Party was drafted. And you know, just like all other documents and all other pieces of written material that come into society gets labelled with a name and it just happ ened that this was called the Re gina Manifesto.

But if the members opposite ever read the Regina Manifesto they would see that implicit in that document were things that were for the good of humanity, the good of Canadians at that parti cular time in history, and that was probably the only reason that that thing ever came to light in Canada was the fact that the people of western Canada in particula r were suffering undue hardship.

So the Regina Manifesto in all its con notations , the misconceptions that people take from it really was a good document , a progres sive document and was designed to meet the needs of the people and help the people at that time. It aro se out of the ashes of the depression and nobody should know it better than members of the Conservative Party beca use they were the governing party of the day and there were some pretty cruel things happ ened in history at that partic ular time.

There have been many other party slogans that just seem to stick with society and they don't mean the same horrible things that the Conservative Party seems to attach to the Re gina Ma nifesto. We've had slogans like , "Do It Now" - there was nothing wrong with that slogan, everybody seemed to accept it in society. I can remember a slogan in this province that was "Grow to Beat the 70s". You know that wasn't a real bad slogan and people seemed to accept it as such and we didn't attach all kind of hairy ideas to it.

And I'm sure that the members opp osite remember the great slogan in the late 50s of "Follow John" , that was one of the great est slogans probably that ever went across this country. Al so there was a slogan of "Trudeaumania" so I don't think that Bill 7 can be, you know, labelled with any kind of Regina Manifesto slogan or anything like that. Mr. Speaker , it just doesn't seem to fit on Bill 7. . They keep mentioning how we draft things in our conventions that seem to have all kinds of wild ideas and this is where ideas like Bill 7 come from.

Well if you don't have conventions and don't develop some kind of party policy then I think that the Conser vative conventions are not productive in that sense, because surely they have conventions and surely they develop some policy and ideas that their party could carry into government, if they ever get elected to government. I think this is what conventions are all about. There's been quite a bit of talk on Bill 7 about the matter of civil servants re signing in order to run for political office.

Well I can't really see the argument in that sense because it' s been quite evident in the last few years that this government brou ght in legislation that allowed for city councillors to run for other jurisdictions of political office without resigning their seat, so if it's good enough for city councillors to be able to do that then I would think that civil servants of the province should have the same pri vilege, and I can't sup port the arguments in that nature.

And there 's been - especially the Honourable Member for Roblin made a great lot of noise about the Executive Council having the almighty power to more or less do what they like , destroy the Civil Service and just fire people and hire people at will. Well I \IDuldn't think that that is a very valid argument because the Executive Council haven't that power and I don't see the new Act giving them that power. There are provisions in the Act that if a person is to be dismissed, it's there now and it probably will continue to be there and I would think that that's only proper and right.

But in talking about this bill the idea of a socialist philoso phy keeps coming at us from all angles and you'd think it was some kind of a big NDP plan to dis credit or discriminate against the Civil Service. I would think that nothing further is from the truth. We keep getting the indications that, the Honourable Member for Thompson the other day took objection to it, the expr ession of Sieg Heil, creepin g socialism , we get the big hairy arms with the hammer and sickle around the Golden Boy, you know, and all of these type of

March 14, 1974 1403 BILL NO. 7 (MR. PATTERSON cont'

d) signs and indications that socialism is a big bad thing. And all I would say in that regard, Mr. Chairman, is that the people who make those signs, give those kind of indications are hurting nobody real ly but themselves. The pu blic have long forgot those type of reflections on politicians and they are now hep to the situation and for the member s that continue in that manner they're certainly not impro ving their image with the public and only helping to discredit themselves.

The Honourab le Member for Roblin in his discourse the other evening took issue once again, as some other member s of the Conservative Party have , with the possibi lity that the Civil Service of Manitoba might one day end up in the Canadian Union of Public Employees. Well you know that really is a sad case when you get honourable members talking about that type of situation more or less limiting the civi·l servants to a freedom of choice. The freedom of choice of the union that they wish to repre sent them.

I would think that the Conservative Party should be standing up on their feet and hailing the fact that the Ci vil Service has been ap proached by the Canadian Union of Public Employ ees, in order to determine if there is any desire for the Civil Service to change their bargaining unit. The Canadian Union of Public Emp loyees is one of the greatest Canadian organizations that we have in Canada today. It 's coast to coast, it's a union that cannot be questioned on its princi ples, its motives and its organizational guide.

It is one of the unions today that is leading the fight to bring refoqn to the Canadian Labour Congress, to bring more autonomy to Canadian unions, to the International sections of those unions that are oper ating in Canada.

And I just can't understand why the members of the Conservative Party would want to discredit CUPE in that sense, because not all, I don't know what the perc entage is , but not all of the locals or the units of the Canadian Union of Public Employees are affiliated to the New Demo cratic Party, and those that are affiliated d o s o b y t h e i r o w n c h o i c e o n a d e m o c r a t i c v o t e.

A n d I d o n '· t s e e h o w a n y Jil e m b e r c a n question that procedu re , because I'm sure that if the Chamber of Commerce and Manu facturers Aso;ociation wishedto support the Conservative party that's the decision of that organization , and I say good luck to them. That is their privilege and their prero gative and I would never question that. If they wish to do that , fine and dandy. And by the same token, if the Chamber of Commerce and Manufacturers Associa tion wish to support the New Demo cratic Party I certainly wouldn't object to that.

You know, this may surpr ise some people but that might not be too far off in the future. You know, the people in those organizations aren't all so reactionary as the inference I get from the .honourable members of the Con servative Party in this House. Now maybe some of the members of the Conser vative Party should start attending some ofthe meeJ;ings again to really see what's happening in those organizations, because they're coming along the road to progr ess.

I would ask the membe rs of the Conservative Party to really think about it, search your conscience, and really ask yourself are you really being fair when you criticize the Civil Service for requesting the Canadian Union of Public Employees to consider some type of affiliation with that union. I think that is a very demo cratic pro cess and I have been most disappo inted with that argument coming from the Con servative Party.

It should be no secret to the members of the Conservative Party that in the Canadian Union of Public Employees there are I would say just as many Conservative supp orters as there are Liberal or New Democratic party suppo rters. So you really shouldn't be arguing about the Canadian Union of Public Employees because they're the real true Canadian union that we have in Canada. I don't doubt but what some of you know some of them and they're a fine bunch of feUows and they really try to do a good job.

I can assure the civil servants of Manitoba that if they ever do choose to go with the Canadian Union of Public Employees that that union will do a job for them and they will be well satisfied with the service that they could get from that union. As I said when I spoke on this bill before , I'm not all that familiar with the Manitoba Government Employees Assoc iation and they may be doing a good job, but from the inference that I get and the newspaper reports is that there has been some dissatisfaction with the MGEA.

Now for whatever reason that is, that is an internal proble m and only the MGEA can sort that out for themselves. But if they're in a mood to go to CUPE then that should be a decision of the civil servants of Manitoba and I don't think that our government or any other pol itical body should have any interference in the desire of the employe es to select the bargaining

1404 March 14, 1974 BILL NO. 7 (MR. PATTERSON cont'd) .... agent of their choice. So with that I would just ask the members of the Conservative part y to think twice about making criticism in that particular area. The Honourable Member for Swan River , he boasted in this House that the civil servants were quite prom inent in getting him re-el ected. Well I say good luck to him if that was the case because why shouldn't the civil service participate in the election of a member to this House if they so desire.

I have no objection with that at all, and if the Honourable Member for Swan Ri ver has a group of Civil servants in that area that are pr epared to support him and work for him and bring his political ambitions to a seat in this Legislature then good luck to him. A MEMBER: Even if they are stupid, eh ? MR . PATTERSON: I just wonder when I listen to the members opp osite debating Bill No. 7 if they've really, really, really, I mean really read what they're talking about.

They seem to take the overview all the time that everything's not all right, that everything won't be all right and everything can't be all right as long as we got Bill 7 in front of us, and they seem to suspect the Honourable Minister of Labour of bein g a devious type of person that doesn't bring anything in that can be realistic. Now I would think that they should really read the amendments and not have their ba ckroom advisors read the thing and give them all the kind of political connotations that make headlines in the newspape rs and get the comments on TV and radio and that typ e of thing.

But really read the amendments themselves and try to understand what the amendments will do. And the amendments that are listed before us, there may be an if or a but or and here that may be just not in the right pla ce, and we'll get to that in Law Amen dments , but the overview of the bill I don't think that they can give a realistic argument to th at , and up to this time in the debate they certainly haven't been giving me the realistic argument as to why the bill shouldn't be passed, almost in its entirety.

I would think that it's a fair bill , it's been laid out in fairly realistic terms and it would seem to do the job that the civil servants have been hop ing that somebody would do for them in the political field. Quite a few of the honourable member s of the Conservative party insinuated that the amendment indicated in Bill 7 would give the government of the day the right to solicit bagmen out of the civil service.

Well when you hear the honourable member s opp osite talk about bagmen, you know, they can really express that term in all its full righteousness because app arently they've been talking about that for many many· years and they know how to say it, they know how to pu t it to the pu blic and they can make it sound like something really awful when it really isn't. Because anybody that's been in politic s knows that , and you can calL him a bagman, but he's really a fund raiser and in that sense every politician has to have funds in order to operate an election. And every politician has to have fund raisers.

So the con notation of bagm en, they really try to lay that on thick and make it look like that every civil servant in the Province of Ma nitoba, after Bill 7 is passed, will all of a sudden become the bagmen for the New Democratic Party. And I would think that nothing could be further from the truth. There are civil servants that wouldn't want to collect money for any political pa rty even if they have a favorite in the political field. You know, the people in our society that want to be or have the ability to be fund raisers are few and far between in any party, so there's no difference there.

I can't see the civil servants being any different than the general run of the average citizen in Ma nitoba. They've talked about if Bill 7 ever becomes a reality that will the Civil Service be free people. Well I think the Civil Service are a pretty free Civil Service today and I can't see that Bill 7 will change them all that much except that in a couple of sections of the propo sed amend ment the civil servants will become free in the sense that they will have the same political rights as the rest of the citizens of Manitoba.

And that means that on the day that the writ is issued there will be no change in the status of the civil servant. He will have his right to continue to participate if he was doing so before in supp ort of the political party or the political candidat'!! of his choice. I think that that is only a fair assumption to. make that a person living in Manitoba in 197 4 should be able to do and I can't argue with that particular clause of the bill. I'm sure that the honourable member s of the Conser vative Party have the right to join or participate in organizations of their choice.

I just wonder how many of them belon g to the

March 14 , 1974 1405 BILL NO. 7 (MR. PATTER SON cont'd) .... National Farmer s Union and I would have no objection to them partic ipating in that organization or any other organization. In fact I would encourage the member s of the Conser vative Party that live in the rural areas to become member s of the National Farmers Union be cause I think that , as I said before, it is only through organiza tions and through organizational strength that you can become a force in society and try to protect the things that are most be neficial to you.

So if they aren't already members of the National Farmers Union then they should certainly seek out that organization and apply for their membership. I don't think, in my observation anyway, Mr. Speaker , that the National Farmers Union has become a political organization up to this time in history.

They seem to be a very independent group, so if the National Farmers Union ever decide to become political then I would think it would be the membe rs of that organization that would determine what their orientation would be in the political field and I would certainly hop e that they would see their way clear to support the New Democratic Party because our party has been most favour able in bringing about improvements in the rural areas and I don't think we should be ba shful in asking for their support because this is a political fact of life.

You know in looking at the debate s, and especially the Honourable Member for Roblin , he talked about how the individual Civil Service would lose their right and all the rest of it if Bill 7 ever became a reality. Well I don't think that any party in the history of Canada can take more credit than what the New Democratic Party can in protecting the rights of individuals. We have champ ioned the rights of individuals over the years and when we beca me government we have certainly bro ught in legislation that would support the rights of individuals, not only in the political field, in many other fields.

This has been the philosophy of the CCF and the New Democratic party down over the year s is to support the right of the individual, give the individual all the rights that society can allow him, and to me this is the real , the real nub of the amendment propo sed in Bill 7, that the individual, the individual, and I think thi s is where the Conservative Party is missing the argument, they keep talking about the Civil Service as a whole. Well it's really not the Civil Service as a whole that you're talking about.

You're talking about individuals in the Civil Service because there's no way that the whole Civil Service is going to support one party or the other. lt' s going to be individuals and the perc entage of individuals will· more than likely be small in comparison to the numbers of people in the Ci vil Service. Their numbers will be small that take the political party in our society. So Bill 7 will once again put forth the philo sophy of the socialist movement in Canada, where the individual has the right to do what the rest of us have to do. Now, Mr.

Speaker , if we don't want to pass Bill 7, if we really get down to the nitty gritty of the thing and we say well I'm sorry civil service we can't pass Bill 7 the opposition has been overwhelming , there's been too much criticism, we haven't had any indication from the Civil Service that they want Bill 7 and all the rest of it, you know it just might be that the Civil Service might have a case to take to the Human Rights Commission. Because why should they be denied rights that the rest of us have, just because they work for the Civil Service.

Now you know when you become employed with tre Civil Service I imagine you make out an application form for employment the same as we do for any other company and I just wonder if it states on that employment form that you can't participate in the political life of the province, If it does , Mr.

Speaker , then I would suggest that the Honourable Minister of Labour should have somebody look at that employment form and pos sibly refer it to the Human Rights Commission, be cause here we are denying people their human rights, if I assess the argument from the Conservative Party properly that, you know, we would be doing a terrible thing if we passed Bill 7. I say the opposite. I say we would be doing a terrible thing if we didn't pass Bill 7. And, Mr.

Chairman , I would certainly hope that we can get this bill into committee and if there are any great amendments to come for ward I'd be willing to listen to them but I'm rather satisfied with Bill 7 the way it is. I think it will give the Civil Service what they have been looking for for a long long time. And, Mr. Chairman, I certainly hope that Bill 7 passes in the very near future. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , If nobody else wants to speak I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Sturgeon Creek that debate be adjourned.

MOTION prese nted and carried.

- 1406 March 14, 1974 BILL NO. 7 MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 17 . The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. The Honourab le Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Spea ker , I be g to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Labour , that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the Ho u s e r e s o 1 v e itself into a Committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION pre sented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair . CO MMITTEE OF SUPPLY - SUPPLEMENTARY MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR.

CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I assume the Committee is prepared to proceed further with Supplem entary Sup ply, and I think the next item is Resol ution 9. But be fore doing so, I'd like to take a moment if l may, to inform Committee that I am asking the Clerk to distribute material which was dealt with this morning in Public Accou nts Committee. This material is a format for a department, the Department of Co-operative Development , which gives the Es timates of that department in the format that they would be if pres ented in accordance with the Ontario system, and another one in accordance with the Quebec system.

And what we did in Pub lic Accou nts this morning was to review these two sets of pre sentations along with the traditional Manitoba set, in the expectation that when we moved to the Depart ment of Co- operative Development, honourable members will have an opportunity to deal with the Estimates in accord with either our own method of pres entation or the Quebec or the Ontario, and I hope that member s will find it useful to review the different forms of prese ntation so that they will have an idea whether there's any advantage to doing it in the way it's being done in those other two provin ces.

It is more elaborate , more extensive, also more expensi ve , but the important thing for us to consider in due course will be whether there should be a change in the form of presen tation of estimates and whether ei,ther of the se or any combination or rearrangement of them would be useful. So that I hope honourable mem bers will have an opp ortunity to look at them before we deal with the committee and with the department, and I believe that since there was a member presen t, at least one from each of the parties in the House , that they will be ab le to acquaint other members mth the prese nt ation form.

May I therefore also offer, Mr. Chairman, that if any member wants to have any elaboration on the form itself, then I'm sure that we can provide that when we deal with the department itself. With that exp lanation for what is now be ing distribute d, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that we proceed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Supplemen tary Estimates. Reso lution 7. Re solved that there be granted to Her Majesty a further sum not exceeding $1 19 , 300 -- (Interjection)-- We only got up to Re solution 6, Supple mentary Estimates. --(Interjection)-- Reso lution 7 -- pass. Re solution 8.

Resolved that ther e be granted to Her Majesty a further sum not exceeding $9, 900 for Atto rney-G eneral. (Pas sed) Re solution No. 9. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a further sum not exceeding $3, 30 0 for Civil Service. (Passed) Res olution No. 10. Res olved that there be granted to Her Majesty a further sum not exceeding $1 62, 400 for Civil Service. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr . Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give an explana tion as to the reason why these further sums are required for this particular ·i tem. MR . CHAIRMAN: 10.

The Honourab le Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: The explanati on, Mr . Chairman, is that the increase in the calculation base and deduction rate was effective January 1, 1973 , and the additional increase on January 1, 1974 , were not included in the original Estimates. These are the additions for that reason. MR. CHAIRM AN: Re solution 10 (Passed) Re solution 11. Re solved that there be granted to Her Maj esty a sum not exceeding $415, 000 for Co lleges and Univer sities. (. Passed) Re solution 12.

Re solved that ther� be granted to Her Majesty a further sum not exceeding $1 1, 000 for Consumer , Corpor ate and Internal Services. (Passed) Res olution 13 . Res olved that there be granted to Her Majesty a further sum not exceeding $1 0, 000 for Consumer , Corpor ate and Internal Services. (Passed)

March 14, 1974 SUPPLY - SUPPLEMENTARY (MR . CHAIRMAN cont'

d) Res olution 14. Re solved that there be granted to Her Majesty a further sum not exceeding $1, 189, 700 for Education. (Passed) Re solution 15. Re solved that there be granted to Her Maj esty a further sum not exceeding $2 2, 000 for Finance. Pass ? The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. 1407 MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could exp lain this figure $22, 000. Is that the cost of administering the collection of tax on this? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr. Speaker , it's the additional cost of the computer pro cessing and forms relative to that tax.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Re solution 15 -- pass ? (Passed) Res olution 16. Re solved that there be granted to Her Majesty a further sum not exceeding $49 4 ,8 00 for Health and Social

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-52
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 52.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bad94f16c06b4ced63d2cc43e9a6a3061fa5f986

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