Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 45 (36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-45

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 45 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, June 16, 1999

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, Mary Ann MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Vercndrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. PC . P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. I'.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2867 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA VVednesday,June16,1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMIT TEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, would like to draw the attention of all honour able members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon, firstly, a number of visitors from Ill inois, one of whom is a member of the state Legislature there. Also, twenty- nine Grades 9 to 11 students from W estpark School under the direction of Miss Melody Martens. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). And, fifty-five Grade 5 students from St. Andrews School under the direction of Mrs. Sandra Mulholland.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). On behalf of all honourable members this afternoon, I welcome you. * (1 335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Kostiuk Family Minister's Follow-up Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, Miranda Kostiuk visited this Legislature with her daughter on June 2, and the Minister of Health promised to follow up specifically with the family and their concerns about delays and difficulty in having their child get an operation.

We have been informed today that when they were told that the minister would get back to them and follow it up, they have not heard from the minister over the last couple of weeks. There has been no follow-up directly with the family; in fact, they are quite concerned about the lack of follow-up. Madam Speaker, if information to people is so important that the government can waste thousands and thousands of dollars on ads, why is it not important enough to follow up directly and give information to people after the minister gives that commitment? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the family that the member ref ers to, their daughter, Kaela, I believe received the surgical treatment the very next day, on June 3, at Children's Hospital by a general ophthalmologist. So, certainly in terms of the treatment, it was provided very quickly, within 24 hours, in that individual case. There is the issue that we have one pediatric ophthalmologist, but we do have 26 ophthal mologists in the province of Manitoba.

Obviously, they also can provide services to people of all ages, and they do just that, and that is exactly what happened in this particular case. So there are opportunities to provide those services through the 26 ophthalmologists here in place in Manitoba. We are pursuing the issue of attracting another pediatric ophthalmologist,

2868 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MAN�, recognizing when it comes to pediatricians I think the Leader of the Opposition recognizes, or I hope he does, that we have more pediatricians per capita than any other province in all of Canada, so it shows our significant commitment to providing that care to the children here in Manitoba. But in terms of this particular family, the procedure was provided the next day. We are following up on the attraction of a second pediatric ophthalmologist, and I will certainly be communicating further with the family. Mr.

Doer: And regrettably the person indicated that the only thing the minister wants to do is impress the media, not follow up with the citizen, Madam Speaker. Health Care System Advertising Campaign Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, Very Reverend Michael Skrumeda considers the ads a waste of taxpayers' dollars, and he cites his father-in-la w who was injured in an accident and taken to the Steinbach hospital, transferred to the Health Sciences Centre, transferred again to the Grace Hospital, and because of a lack of beds and the pressure on that hospital, was moved again to the Steinbach hospital where 48 hours later, regrettably, his father-in-law died.

He feels very strongly that the pressure on the health care system contributed to the death of his father-in law. would like to ask the question to the Premier. Would it not make more sense to spend the hundreds of thousands of dollars that the government is spending on propaganda ads, on behalf of the Conservatives, would it not make more sense to spend those monies on ads on patient care in Grace Hospital so people would not have to be discharged early? Ron. Gary Filmon (Premier): No government in the history of this province has ever put more money into health care.

This government spends the second largest proportion of budget on health care of any province in Canada. This govern ment has increased funding for health by $800 million a year in the 11 years that we have been in office, Madam Speaker. This government has spent 35.5 percent of all of its money on all of its expenditures on health care. It is by far the No. I priority. This has been done continuously over a period of time in which the federal government reduced its transfers to the province for health care by over $260 million a year, and they have only begun in this budget to restore 40 percent of those cuts.

And those figures, for the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) who is chirping away, are right out of the federal budget, $260 million a year less in transfers for health and education. This government is the government that is giving the commitment to make sure that our health care system not only is one of the best in Canada but continues to improve each and every year. * (1 340) Mr. Doer: I do not think the Reverend Skrumeda will be very impressed with the arrogance and heartlessness of the answer to deal with his father-in-law.

Delores Waletzky has called the minister's office three times and has not had a response from the minister. Her orthopedic surgery that was scheduled in March, cancelled in September, is now scheduled in November, Madam Speaker. She says the TV ads paid for by her tax dollars are not true and therefore should not be paid for by her tax dollars, but rather that money should go into her health care system. I would like to ask the Premier the same question. Why can we not divert those ads for the Tory purposes, for the health care of the Tory party, and put that into the health care of Manitobans? Ron.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): This budget alone, our 19 99 budget that the Leader of the Opposition and his coll eagues stood up and supported here in this House, includes $19 4 million more for health care. I want to give the member an example of some of the things that are being done to address the very issues that he is raising. Madam Speaker, $62 million, or 8 percent more funding will be used

June 16 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2869 to expand surgery capacity and other acute care services, and to give him some examples: 11 ,000 more mammograms in Manitoba, 15 ,000 more dialysis treatments, 30 percent more radiotherapy treatments for cancer through an additional $1. 3 million, 600 to 700 more procedures for access to hip and knee surgery in the province of Manitoba. Capacity for CT scans will increase by 15 percent, 8,000 more bone density screenings, 12 ,000 more MRI scans, 3,000 more adult and 300 more children will have access to echocardiogram.

That just gives the member a sense of what this budget and the additional resources put in place in this budget are doing to continue to improve access to the entire system for all Manitobans. Health Care System Advertising Campaign Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, perhaps the minister can explain that to some of the individuals who are in the gallery today who attended this morning, individuals who had their orthopedic surgery cancelled and moved back; individuals who have had their family members shifted from hospital to hospital because there are no beds available in our system, individuals who had to go to Riverview to feed their loved ones because there is not enough staff to feed the patients.

Madam Speaker, can the minister explain to us how his $1 75,000 ads this time and $500,000 ads recently, how one penny of those ads benefit those individuals and those people who are suffering because of their cuts to the health care system? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, again we have members opposite I think as usual wanting to be on all sides of every issue.

They are the members who also stood up and supported our budget here just several weeks ago, our budget that includes $2.1 billion for health care, a $1 94-million increase in health care funding to address the very issues that they are talking about today. I remind the member for Kildonan that we provide 15 million medical services alone in the province of Manitoba; over 240,000 Manitobans access our hospital system alone each and every year.

I have just given the Leader of the Opposition a number of areas where services continue to be improved in the province of Manitoba, where waiting lists are going down for diagnostic services, where we have some of the shortest waiting lists in all of Canada, where waiting lists are going down for surgical procedures so today we have some of the shortest waiting lists in all of Canada. When it comes to per capita support for specialists, for pediatricians, for nurses, the province of Manitoba stacks up amongst the best in all of Canada.

That is because we have continued to dedicate more and more money for health care services in our province. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my supple mentary to the Minister of Health: will the Minister of Health not admit that the $750,000, three-qu arters of a million dollars that they are wasting on Tory propaganda, could go a long way to reducing the waiting lists, much like the $500,000 the government found just before the last provincial election to decrease waiting lists?

That $750,000 could go a long way towards easing these waiting lists, not to broadcasting and trying to re-elect this government who have been abysmal in their health care- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, sometimes I think members opposite just do not listen. I mean I have indicated already, in this budget alone there is $62 million more, 8 percent more funding to expand the surgery capacity and other acute care services, $62 million.

And it is doing a number of things that I have outlined for members in this House: improving dialysis service, reducing waiting times for a number of diagnostic testings, whether it is MRis or CT scans or ultrasounds, providing 600 to 700 more procedures for hip and knee surgeries in the province of Manitoba, $62 million, let alone the remainder of the $1 94 million added in this budget to increase home care services, to increase personal care home beds, to do a number of things to enhance quality services in health care for the people of Manitoba. * (1 345)

2870 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16 , 19 99 Waiting Lists Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, perhaps the minister can explain to the people of Manitoba why it is that we had until recently the longest waiting lists for diagnostic services in the country, the longest surgical lists in the country, and it only took an imminent provincial election for the government for the first time in II years to all of a sudden promise the resources, yet they are not delivered yet and will not be down the pike for some time.

It took a provincial election for this government to try to do something with those waiting lists. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, I am glad the member for Kildonan finally acknowledges on the record that waiting lists are coming down and coming down significantly in the province of Manitoba, and it is because of the continual dedication of more resources from our government. During a time when the federal government was reducing funding by $260 million annually, we backfilled all of that money, and we continue to put more money into the system.

Today we finally have the federal government recognizing the errors of their ways and starting to restore some of that money. All of that money is going back into health care services. That is why today we have some of the shortest waiting lists when it comes to diagnostic services and surgical procedures. That is why we have one of the best Home Care programs in all of Canada. That is what we are doing with these resources, dedicating them across the board to our health care system to improve access and quality for all Manitobans. Health Care System Advertising Campaign Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson)� If there is any example, I think, that typifies best the arrogance of this government after II years, it is day-in and day-out refusal to listen to the people of Manitoba who are saying that it is insane to spend $675,000 of public money on ads on health care for the purpose of this Conservative Party and not on health care. I want to ask the Premier if he can confirm that they have already spent $675,000. That amount, just coincidentally, is exactly what they are allowed to spend in an election campaign.

We have already seen the equivalent of what they spent in the last election on ads, except this time it is being paid for by the people of Manitoba. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I do not consider it arrogance to respond to what people are telling us is the No. I priority. We have met with people throughout this province. We were on cabinet tours to over six regions of the province, night after night, throughout the winter months. I met with groups and individuals throughout the city of Winnipeg ridings and talked about the issue of health care.

That is why there is over $19 0 million of additional funding for health care in this budget which the members opposite voted for, because we are listening to the people. We are responding to their priorities, and that is why waiting lists are coming way down. That is why members opposite are only trying to make a political issue of it. Mr. Ashton: I am wondering if the Premier, who says he is talking to Manitobans-and we have been. We have not found one person that agrees with spending the money on health care ads.

I want to ask him: how many people out there are saying spend it on ads, and how many people are saying spend it on health care? Mr. Filmon: What the public is telling us is that health care ought to be our No. I priority. That is why we spend 35.5 percent of our entire provincial budget; that is the second-hig hest proportion of any province in Canada. That is why the increase this year on health care is over $19 0 million.

That is why we are spending $2.1 billion this year on health care, which is $800 million a year more than it was when we took office in 19 88, and that is why we are making the investments that people are telling us are the No. I priority. Mr. Ashton: If the Premier will not answer that question, I am just wondering how long it is going to take and how much more money are they planning on spending. I mean, is this the limit? How much more money are they going to

June 16 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 287 1 waste on ads instead of putting it where it is needed, the health care of Manitobans? Mr. Stefanson: I think members opposite are hard of hearing or they just do not want to listen to the answers in terms of the significant commitment we continue to make year in and year out to health care, the significant commitment in this 19 99 budget that they voted for.

I assume that one of the reasons they voted for the budget was because of the significant commitment to health care, the amount of money going in to reduce waiting times, to relieve hospital overcrowding, to support the retention and recruitment of health care professionals. In all of the meetings that I have been a part of, people want more information about their health care system. Any surveys indicate people want more information about their health care system. It is incumbent on governments to provide information. It is only members opposite who are afraid of the facts and the real information.

They are the only ones who seem to oppose providing information to Manitobans about their health care system. * (1 35 0) Health Care System Bed Shortages Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): This morning we heard a very sad story about the late William Lobur, who died after being bounced from two hospitals and died in a third hospital, totally unnecessarily moved from one hospital to another in spite of the fact that he was seriously ill.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health: why is your planning so bad that there are not sufficient beds that people have to be discharged from one hospital, discharged from a second hospital, sent to a third hospital where he died after 48 hours and where the doctor said he should never have been transferred, he was too sick? Why is this happening? Why is your planning so bad that this happens to an individual? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, I am certainly prepared to look into the individual aspects of-the individual's name that the member brings here today, but I believe we have a very strong and credible health care system. Certainly the feedback that I get from Manitobans on an overall basis is very positive about our health care system. Again, the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) I know agrees with this.

When people access our health care system, they are very proud of the services they get, and that is a compliment to the nurses, the doctors, to the health care aides, to the people that are working in our health care facilities and providing those services day in and day out. We provide over 15 million medical services each and every year. We provide over 240,000 services each and every year in our hospital system, again a significant commitment to the quality health care of all Manitobans, and our system is providing that. But I will certainly look into this specific case that the member brings here today.

Advertising Campaign Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I would like to ask the Minister of Health or the Premier: why is your government spending $750,000 when the people of Manitoba, patients, family and friends of patients are saying take off the TV ads, spend the money instead on health care? How many nurses could you hire for $750,000, and how many beds could you reopen for $750,000 so that people will not die? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): The member for Burrows talks about $750,000. This budget alone includes $19 4 million more for health care services.

It includes an all-time record spending on health care of $2.1 billion. It includes spending of $5.6 million each and every day on our health care system to address all of the issues that I have outlined for the member when we have had discussions during the Estimates process. The member himself from Kildonan acknowledged that waiting lists are coming down. In some areas we have amongst the shortest waiting lists in all of Canada when it comes to diagnostics and surgery.

2872 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1999 When you look at our number of surgeons and specialists per capita, we are amongst the best in Canada. When you look at our pediatricians per capita, we are amongst the best in Canada.

When you look at our nursing ratio, in spite of the fact we still need more nurses in Manitoba, we stack up amongst the best in Canada, and when it comes to nurses, this budget alone includes $32.5 million to recruit 650 nurses, a number of commitments right across the board for health care that members opposite, I am assuming, supported that budget for all of those reasons, or I certainly hope they did, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Martindale: Will the Minister of Health listen to the people of Manitoba, cancel the health care ads, get the Conservative Party to pay for the $750,000 and use that $750,000 to hire nurses and reopen beds? Will he do that? Mr.

Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, I can only repeat for the benefit of the member for Burrows and his colleagues that this budget alone, the 1999 budget that they voted for, that they supported I am sure because of the significant commitment to health care in this budget, includes $194 million more for services in all of these areas, for services to improve access to diagnostic and surgery, for more services to home care.

Home care alone has $20 million more in this budget, now $147 million being spent on the Home Care program in the province of Manitoba, $15 million more for our personal care home program, $62 million more for expanding surgery capacity and other acute care services, doing all of the things that they talk about and they have asked us day in and day out to do, we are doing in the province of Manitoba. This budget is helping to accomplish that, and we are seeing significant improvement in all of those areas in our health care system. Land Expropriation Private Companies Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, over the weekend we had heard from a farmer who expressed a great deal of concern in terms of expropriation- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. *

(1355) Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, as I was saying, a great deal of concern from a particular farmer in regard to owning some property. N.M. Paterson and Sons Limited is proposing to build a grain elevator in the northwest corner of the city, a large plot of land, invested millions of dollars, now wants to have access to Inkster Boulevard. And I look to the Minister of Highways to indicate the government's position on expro priation of land for private companies. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, first of all, it has always been a policy of the Depart ment of Highways to be able to accommodate, in our highway planning and construction of roads, industrial development that takes place any where in the province. One of the prime purposes of our highway system is to be able to ensure that there is movement of trade goods and accommodation of commerce in our province.

We work with municipal people and certainly those who are building large facilities that require access to our road system to attempt to accommodate traffic flows in a safe manner that sees further economic development in our province. And we will-imagine whoever is the minister-continue to do that because that is the prime purpose of our highway system. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, then just for clarification from the Minister of Highways: is it the government's policy then to take action of expropriation on behalf of a private company on to someone else's land?

Does the minister not realize the impact that that actually takes on the individual who is getting their land taken away, potentially? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, the government nor this department expropriates land on behalf of a private developer. If an expropriation is involved in this particular piece, it will be for the purposes of building a public roadway. From time to time, in most of our highway projects, land, particularly where we are building a new road, a new access road, or

.----- June 16 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2873 expanding a public roadway to accommodate residential development, to accommodate eco nomic development, whatever, if we are unable to purchase land and it is a sufficient enough public purpose, then we proceed to expropriate. I would be delighted to discuss the details of this particular situation with the member, in Estimates, when I have my staff with me who have more detail. But we do not expropriate land for private purpose. We expropriate land, where required, for public roadways. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, then again for clarification from the Minister of Highways, if I understand what the Minister of Highways is saying, I ask the Minister of Highways then: will he then give assurances that, in this particular instance, if in fact it is for private use for a grain elevator, in fact the government would not be in a position then to expropriate an access to Inkster Boulevard? Mr. Prazuik: Madam Speaker, I would be delighted to discuss, when we are in Estimates, the specifics of this particular plan.

But I would just remind the member that when facilities are being constructed that require intermodal relationships, the linkage of road ways with railways, often there are very limited places where those types of facilities can be constructed to take advantage of intermodal opportunities. In many of the debates and questions that we have had in this House, the need to accommodate intermodal transportation is critical to prevent unwarranted further truck traffic on our roadways when rail is an option. So I would be delighted to discuss those issues with the member.

Driver Licensing Written Tests-Ukrainian Language Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, if I may while I am on feet, yesterday a question was taken as notice on my behalf, a question by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), and I have to say to her doze djakoyu [thank you very much] for asking it. I must admit to the House that is one of those moments that I think every member fears when within one's department a decision is made by administrators.

I am very pleased to inform the House today that as soon as I became aware of the issue, that decision has been cancelled and reversed. I have asked my administrator in that area to prepare a proposal to me to provide for a full range of language opportunities. I will say I do accept my responsibility, and I offer an apology on behalf of the department. I just hope the Leader of the Opposition has the same courage to accept his responsibility with respect to his campaign manager and what happened in Seven Oaks School Division. Flooding Compensation for Farmers Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, the announcement of $10 an acre to help with seeding was welcomed in some parts of the province, but in many parts of the province, such as the Melita area, it will be of little help because the soil is in such poor condition and it is a bigger weed problem that they are dealing with. I want to ask the minister when he is going to recognize that this program is not going to help, given that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has alluded to a $50 per acre payment.

When are we going to have an announcement of a specific payment that is going to help these farmers who will not be able to get on their land or take advantage of any program to seed this year? Hon.

Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I want to assure the honourable member for Swan River that all of us on this side of the House, from the Premier to a number of us ministers who have spent considerable time in that area, recognize, have recognized for some time that there is a very serious problem that too many of our farmers are facing not only in the southwest part of the province, although that is the predominant area. It includes areas along the northwest, north of the Trans-Canada, as well as in the southeastern part of the province. Negotiations are underway with my federal counterparts.

Senior officials from the Depart ment of Agriculture are talking daily with the federal officials on how we can best apply the federal-provincial programs to address this issue.

2874 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA Jun� * (1 400) Impact on Businesses Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): And certainly we recognize that there are other parts of the province, such as Grandview, Gilbert Plains, the Interlake, where there are seeding problems, but it is the southwest part of the province that is the hardest hit. I would like to ask the government what they are going to do for the businesses in the communities that feel that their businesses are at risk because of lack of cash flow in the communities.

Given that there was a JERI program that was applied for to help the people in the Red River Valley businesses, why is the government not moving more quickly to have these same kinds of programs established to help the other businesses that are suffering because of this disaster? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): I appreciate the member's comment with respect to the businesses and the concerns that they have on the western side of the province and in fact anywhere in the province where they are having a great deal of difficulty getting their crop in the ground.

I would like to share with the member that I have had a phone conversation and I have subsequently followed up with a letter to the minister responsible for the Western Diver sification Fund and that is the minister, Ron Duhamel. I have asked him for his appreciation and his co-operation in addressing the situation here, similar to the way the situation was addressed in the Red River Valley in 19 97 with programs such as the Custom Seeding Program.

I have even gone as far as adding spraying to that part of the request, as well as a cash advance program, as well as aspects of the JERI program that might pertain to the producers in the western side of the province. So I have put that request forward, and I have yet to have a response from the minister. Disaster Assistance Programs Public's Awareness Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): I would like to ask the minister whether he will table for us the correspondence that he has on this matter and tell this House why this government has not informed the business community and the farmers in the area about what options are there. We spoke to them last night, and they said nobody from this government told them anything about the possibilities of getting funding from a program like JERI. Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I believe the correspondence that the member is referring to has already been shared with the Leader of the official opposition. We spent all day last Friday meeting with groups on the western side of the province. We discussed these issues with them at that time, and in fact asked that they support us in our request to the federal government to participate in these programs with us that I just mentioned to the honourable member.

So it is there that our request is in place, and we have discussed this with many individual groups out on the western side of the province. Conflict of Interest Civil Servants-Business Loans Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Yesterday raised questions about a conflict of interest between an employee, a senior staff member of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, and his work and a client of his and a private loan. The minister responsible said that the report from the Civil Service Commission had found that there was no conflict.

I wonder if he would like to correct the record because that is not quite what the deputy minister wrote. He wrote, and I quote: The report, however, goes on to consider the question of whether or not Mr. Robertson's private business dealings may have resulted in an apparent conflict of interest or the apprehension of a conflict of interest. Would he like to expand on his answer and recognize that the Civil Service Commission did in fact find that this man had breached the conflict of interest rules of this province, because they deal with conflict apprehension; they do deal with- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): As I suggested to the

June 16, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2875 member for Crescentwood yesterday, upon hearing the allegations that were brought forward, I asked the deputy minister to get involved. He contacted the Civil Service Commission who carried out an investigation, and the conclusion was as I stated, that the employee accused was found not to be in direct conflict of interest. I would suggest to the member opposite that due process has been followed. We went to the Civil Service Commission to get an independent evaluation of the situation. They came forward.

The member opposite continues to try and partake in character assassination of employees of the government. I think that is shameful, and I can tell you that the member, if he wants to continue in that vein, then that is certainly his prerogative, but I can suggest to the members here today that we have offered to the person who brought the allegation forward that there is an alternative method for him to follow. If he is not pleased with the investigation, he can contact the Ombudsman, who would investigate the procedure that has taken place. Mr. Sale: Does the report not say that Mr.

Robertson's private business dealings with Mr. Collette may have resulted in an apparent conflict of interest, which is a central issue in the conflict guidelines? That is what the report said. It is what the deputy minister wrote, and I will table the letter, Madam Speaker. Mr. Tweed: The suggestion that there was an apparent conflict of interest is what was said and why we brought in the Civil Service Com mission to do the investigation. The member opposite continues to slander and attack people that work in the public service in the province of Manitoba, and I think he should be ashamed of that. Mr.

Sale: Has the minister told Mr. Robertson that he should not loan any more personal money to any clients as the assistant deputy minister responsible for business development and industry development in this province? He is responsible for every industry, every business. He should not be loaning private money to any businesses. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Tweed: Madam Speaker, the member of allegation continues to bring forward arguments that the process was not followed.

Indeed, the process was followed, and the Civil Service Commission came back and reported to my deputy minister that the employee named was found not to be in direct conflict of interest. Again, I have to emphasize continually to the member opposite that to bring forward allegations on a constant basis as he does, which, after investigation and throughout time, tends to prove not totally factual, is shameful on behalf of the member opposite, and I think he should feel that way. Pediatric Ophthalmology Availability Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, earlier in Question Period we raised the issue of the surgery for Miranda Kostiuk's daughter, and the minister, as usual, evaded the question and said everything was fine and dandy. Well, we are informed that the surgery did not go well, and there is a major problem. I want the minister to understand that the surgery did not go well because the pediatric ophthal mologist did not do the surgery. Can the minister please explain why the government-[interjection] Well, perhaps you can talk to the mother who is waiting in the hallway to talk to the minister, Madam Speaker.

Can the minister explain to the mother and to the House why this province does not have those kinds of specialists available? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, that is an interesting accusation by the member opposite, because the information that my department has provided is that the pediatric ophthalmologist does an assessment, does the referral, but that on-call ophthalmology service is provided by the 18 adult ophthalmologists who perform the pediatric surgery in most cases.

So it is not at all uncommon that one out of the other 26 ophthalmologists should be performing the surgery and also to be performing the pediatric surgery. So, once again, I do not know what his motive is here in terms of obviously questioning

2876 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1999 the capabilities of an individual ophthalmologist in the province of Manitoba, who certainly has the medical and educational expertise to provide these kinds of services. In terms of the original request, this service was provided within 24 hours to the individual.

But again, the process is certainly one that it is these other ophthalmologists who in many cases perform the pediatric surgery that the member opposite is now accusing an ophthalmologist of-I do not know what he is suggesting here, whether or not the ophthalmologist did not perform the function properly or not. I say shame to him. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, there are three problems that are wrong in this: firstly, the minister did not get back; secondly, that you have to wait eight months to get a pediatric ophthalmologist; and thirdly, why you have to go to Alberta to get the surgery done.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member for Kildonan have a question? * (1 4 10) Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Madam Speaker. Those are the questions that the minister has to answer, those three questions. Mr. Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, I go back to his root question, what expertise he has to be questioning the individual medical abilities of an ophthalmologist, to come here and make that kind of a suggestion in this House. I really call into question what his motive is or what his research is on this issue.

The process is very clear in terms of the role the pediatric ophthalmologist plays and the role that the other 26 ophthalmologists play in performing the surgery. An Honourable Member: Have a heart. Mr. Stefanson: The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) says "have a heart." This case was brought to attention and was addressed in 24 hours in terms of the surgery being performed for the individual. We have indicated that we have 26 ophthalmologists in the province of Manitoba. We have indicated that we are pursuing the recruitment of an additional pediatric ophthalmologist.

But again, I question what the motive or objective is of the member for Kildonan questioning the abilities of an ophthalmologist here in Manitoba. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to members' state ments, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Oral Questions time has expired. I am attempting to introduce another class that has just arrived.

I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twelve Grade 5 students from Westpark School under the direction of Mr. Wayne Sawatzky. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Portage Industrial Exhibition Mr.

David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Madam Speaker, this past weekend as MLA for Portage Ia Prairie I had the opportunity to attend the official opening of the new exhibition office building of the Portage Industrial Exhibition Association at Island Park. I also had the pleasure of representing the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, the Honourable Rosemary Vodrey, who, I am very proud to say, supported this particular project. The Portage Industrial Exhibition has provided a valuable service to Portage Ia Prairie and surrounding area for over 125 years; in fact, this year will be

June 16, 1999 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2877 the 127th consecutive exhibition, which is the longest- Point of Order Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. The member for Assiniboia has been heckling all Question Period, and she does not even have the good sense not to heckle during her own member's statement. Perhaps you could call her to order, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able member for Assiniboia, on the same point of order. Hon.

Linda Mclnosh (Minister of Environment): My heckling was always in response to things said to me from the other side during Question Period. So, Madam Speaker, if I point, it is to show him how silly he looks pointing, and I do enjoy what my member is saying. I wish they would be quiet so we could hear him. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Concordia, I would like to remind all honourable members to listen attentively, as I have requested on several occasions, and to pay due respect to members when they are making their members' statements.

It is far too noisy in this Chamber when individual members are recognized to speak. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Portage, to complete his member's statement. Mr. Faurschou: Madam Speaker, do I have the permission of the House to start over again, please? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Portage have leave to- Point of Order Mrs. Mcintosh: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

It is against the rules to heckle, and the Leader of the Opposition, after getting up and making a self-righteous speech about other people heckling, starts in heckling the minute we all sit down to start these proceedings over again. If they would just not set the standard. They can set a standard; we will respond accordingly. Madam Speaker: The Leader of the official opposition, on the same point of order. Mr. Doer: On the same point of order, the member for Portage correctly asked for leave, and we gave leave with reason. I apologize for giving our reasons; leave is granted to the member from our side.

Madam Speaker: I thank the Leader of the official opposition. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Portage, to start his member's statement again with the co-operation of all members on both sides of the Chamber. Mr. Faurschou: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I appreciate leave as provided to me by the Chamber. Madam Speaker, this past weekend I had the opportunity as MLA for Portage Ia Prairie to attend the official opening of the new exhibition office at the Portage Industrial Exhibition Association's facilities at Island Park.

I also had the privilege of bringing greetings on behalf of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, the Honourable Rosemary Vodrey, who, I am very pleased to say, supported this program. The Portage Industrial Exhibition Association has the distinction of being the longest running industrial exhibition in all of western Canada, and this year will be the 127th consecutive fair.

Many residents of Portage Ia Prairie and surrounding districts for generations have had the opportunity to attend, and this new facility will offer the Portage Industrial Exhibition Association the opportunity to enter into the new millennium with a facility that will offer efficiency and professionalism to the operation of the Portage Exhibition.

2878 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1999 I would like to congratulate all organizers, directors, volunteers and sponsors who played a

part in this project in making it a reality. I would like to draw a special note to Mr. Marvin McCallister and Mr. Don Coubrough, who were co-chairs of the building committee, for their outstanding accomplishment. Best of luck. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Cardiac Care Program Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, I am concluding the letter from Lorrie Roulette from Brandon that I began yesterday, outlining the problems that she and her family have had with the health care system. I quote: You are scared but also want this surgery over and done so you can begin the healing process.

It will save his life, but Manitoba Health does not seem to care. So sorry, an emergency arose; let us try Monday. So sorry, another emergency; let us try Friday. So sorry, there are no beds today; let us try Monday. So sorry, you have a cold now plus there are no beds in intensive care. No beds, no nurses, no doctors. This is health care? With each new date of surgery you have prepared yourself emotionally and physically just to be put off again and again. The mental anguish is incredible, the upheavals in your life unbelievably stressful. How are you coping with this situation?

How are you avoiding another heart attack from the stress that you must be going through? What has happened to the Manitoba health care system? Why can Manitoba Health no longer take care of Manitobans' health? Why can a scheduled surgery no longer take place on schedule? What happened to our efficient, compassionate and smooth-running hospitals of I 0 years ago? What is the cause of this bedlam, government cutbacks or inept health authorities? Who is going to not only address but mend the many problems before patients die? How many already have? Thank you, Madam Speaker. * (1 420) St. Norbert Foundation Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): This morning I had the pleasure of attending, along with our Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), an announcement at the St. Norbert Foundation. Our government will provide an additional $500,000 annually to create additional spaces to help addicted parents on welfare receive treatment. This new initiative is one more way we are working to improve the lives of all Manitobans. This morning's announcement will encourage people on social assistance with dependency problems to seek assistance to overcome their addictions.

When a one-tier social assistance program was implemented in April, the Department of Family Services adopted the City of Winnipeg's policy of obliging childless people with chemical dependency problems to seek treat ment. This government is taking it a step further to ensure that we are encouraging addicted clients to get treatment. Treatment options vary, depending on the needs of each client. Parents with addictions will also be aggressively encouraged to take

part in addiction treatment programs; however, their benefits will not be terminated for noncompliance. Since my govern ment always concerns itself with the welfare, safety and security of children, we will put the necessary safeguards in place to ensure that the children are not placed at risk in these instances where their parents continuously refuse treatment. This new approach will help Manitobans with addictions to become healthy and productive members of society. This will help them achieve personal goals and lead more fulfilling lives, and it will provide substantial benefits for their families.

Health Care System Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): The planned May election was cancelled, but round two of questionable health care ads by the provincial government has now begun. According to the latest advertising campaign, the Manitoba government now has a health plan. A large part of that plan clearly involves using tax

June 16, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2879 dollars to try and re-elect a government mired by hallway medicine, frozen food in hospitals and vote-splitting schemes. Apparently the Health minister (Mr. Stefanson) learned nothing from public opposition to the $500,000 wasted in health care ads of March and April. Once again taxpayers are paying for ads promoting the Conservative Party and the Filmon cabinet. This time the bill for two 30-second TV ads is $1 75,000. These ads will run for a full four weeks.

Even the minister admits that the ads are another attempt to deal with the fact that most Manitobans do not believe the Filmon government when it comes to providing quality health care. For residents of the Norman Region, including Flin Flon, The Pas, Snow Lake, Pukatawagan, Sherridon, Cranberry Portage and some northern Saskat chewan communities, the timing of yet another promotional campaign is more than question able. Just over a week ago, Linda Campbell, the CEO of the Norman Regional Health Authority, resigned. She was the second CEO of the regional health authority to quit in less than two years.

Her resignation came just days after it was revealed that the special care unit of the Flin Flon Hospital closed due to lack of staff. Earlier in May, Campbell had gone public when she spoke to the Flin Flon Chamber of Commerce over her concerns with staff shortages, nurse burnout, a continuing deficit at the Flin Flon Hospital along with other issues. The RHA is now advertising in newspapers locally and elsewhere for a new CEO.

Given the problems facing the Norman Regional Health Authority, just why northerners or any other Manitobans should have to pay for yet more advertising campaigns promoting the Filmon government is hard to understand. Would the money not be better spent on front line health care, Madam Speaker? Thank you. Simplot Plant-Brandon Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): On Monday I raised the question in the House regarding the explosions at the Simplot plant in Brandon.

The explosion that occurred a few days back is the third one that has happened since last September, and indeed people in the east end of Brandon, in fact the whole community of Brandon are very concerned. Last year, at the time of the two first explosions, I raised the matter with the then Minister of Environment, the MLA for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), and I raised it with the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) by way of a letter requesting an independent review of the matter, bringing in expertise that I do not believe is available in the Workplace Safety and Health Division, and I repeat, this is no reflection on the staff; they are excellent staff. But you need expertise in this matter, and that expertise is available, as I found out by doing some research, through the American Institute of Chemical Engineers. They conduct an ammonia safety symposium every year. There is considerable information on this, and indeed I have mailed this, some months back, to various officials involved.

I now note that the City of Brandon is prepared to conduct an independent review and is now going to meet with Simplot officials and officials from Workplace Safety and Health to see how this may occur. I want to take this opportunity to again urge the Minister of Labour (Mr. Radcliffe), who is responsible in this area, to forthwith hire the expertise to conduct this review. This is not anti-Simplot. In fact I repeat that the company is prepared to engage in this independent review, welcomes it. Unfortu nately, the MLA from Brandon West said that we are trying to close down Simplot. Far from the truth.

The company is prepared to co operate and wants this in the interests of safety, in the interests of everybody. Thank you, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I have a number of announcements to make about business today and over the next few days. First of all, given that we will be dealing with private members' hour tomorrow at 10 a.m., I think if you canvass the House you will find there is a willingness to waive private members' hour today.

2880 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1999 Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour today in appreciation that we will have two one hour segments of private members' hour tomorrow morning? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, in the interests of making sure members have as much notice as possible-and I want to thank my colleague the opposition House leader-we have been attempting to be able to make private members' time one in which members would find to be a more interesting and worthwhile than the past.

Tomorrow I would like to indicate to the House that we will be calling for consideration Resolution No. 18, moved by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) with respect to the Estey report. Madam Speaker, at this time I would like to ask for leave of the House for this period a number of things. One is we would like to have both hours tomorrow dedicated to the debate of this resolution. So that is the first thing for which I will need leave. We would also like to amend the rules to shorten the speaking time to 10 minutes per member, because we anticipate a great deal of interest in this matter.

Thirdly, we, with unanimous consent, would like to call upon Madam Speaker to interrupt the proceedings tomorrow at a quarter to 12 to vote on this resolution. As members appreciate, we are attempting to do some different things in private members'. So, if we could have leave of the House today for those three things, then members will have full notice as to and in anticipation of what we will be doing tomorrow. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to deal with private members' hour for two hours devoted to Resolution 18 proposed by the honourable member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk), firstly? [agreed] Is there leave for Madam Speaker to interrupt the proceedings at 11: 45 a.m. to have a vote on this resolution? [agreed] Is there also unanimous consent of the House to reduce the normal speaking time from 15 minutes to 10 minutes per member for this resolution only? [agreed] * (1 430) Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, then the work for tomorrow morning's session I think is complete, and when the House reconvenes at that time, at 10 a.m. tomorrow, then the business is there at hand for that particular day.

Secondly, I would also like to serve notice and I just look to the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton) because I want to make sure this, in fact, is confirmed. But we were looking at calling the committee to complete the work on the Workers Compensation Board for next Tuesday, the 22nd of June.

So I would indicate and announce today that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Tuesday, June 22, 1999, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 for consideration of the Annual Report of the Workers Compensation Board for the year ended December 31 , 1998, and the December 31 , 1998, Report of the Appeal Commission. I just look to the others. I think that has covered all the matters before that committee. [interjection] Yes, I believe that there are issues around the Five-Year Annual Report.

So the matters that have been under consideration, we would also indicate should further be considered until that work is completed by the committee. Madam Speaker: The announcement is that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet Tuesday, June 22, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 to continue to consider the matters of the Workers Compensation. Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, in the interests again of as much information to members as possible, for tomorrow afternoon the opposition House leader and I are discussing a manner in which we can, in maximizing time, also be dealing with several bills. I hope to make that announcement tomorrow. But I just wanted to indicate that there are discussions currently going underway as to how we could manage that for the maximization of time and business this House must dispatch.

June 16, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 288 1 With respect to Committee of Supply for this afternoon, it is my intention to move the motion for the House to go into Committee of Supply. I would ask, because I know we have had some juggling of Estimates to accommodate a number of issues on both sides of the House, that in the Chamber for this afternoon the Sport department could continue in its Estimates. We understand that that may in fact be completed today, in which case the Department of Rural Development would then continue with its Estimates in the Chamber.

In Room 255, the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs will continue, and I imagine if they complete by six o'clock the next in order would follow. [interjection] Pardon me, I may have just made an error in my notes. I had checked with the deputy opposition House leader. We may have had different information. An Honourable Member: Sports, then Consumer Affairs. Mr. Praznik: Okay, and in the Chamber will be Rural Development.

Madam Speaker, just to amend that then, in the Chamber we will be dealing with the Department ofRural Development; in Room 255 we will complete, I understand, the Estimates of the Sport secretariat followed by Consumer and Corporate Affairs; and in Room 254, the Department of Energy and Mines.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House for the following adjustments to the Estimates sequence for today only: Rural Development to be considered in the Chamber; Energy and Mines to be dealt with in Room 254; and the Estimates of Sport-and upon completion of the Estimates of Sport, the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs-to be considered in Room 255? [agreed] Mr.

Praznik: I make notice as well, at this point the opposition House leader and I are working on an order for a number of other committees to meet on Tuesday morning, and we hope to be able to announce that over a number of weeks very, very shortly to accom modate a variety of requests for annual reports to be dealt with. I would then at this time move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Environment (Mrs. Mcintosh), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and that this House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to. * (1 440) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ENERGY AND MINES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (

c) Mines ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 59 of the main Estimates book. Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): I do know that my colleague for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) also has additional questions that he would like to ask and will be joining us later on during the process. He will probably be here very shortly. I will tum over the questioning when he comes. I have a number of questions related to the Mines Branch.

A lot of them have been generated from the recent Mining Board hearing, where we did find individuals involved who fraudulently staked a number of claims, which ultimately raised a series of questions as to the number of inspectors that we have. Are we able to ensure that The Mines Act is being complied with and, ultimately, is it enforceable? So I would like to start off the questioning in a general way by looking at the overall personnel changes.

We do see additional staff indicated in this area and would like some clarification as to the additional 1. 5 staff members in the Professional/Technical line of the Mines Branch.

2882 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1999 Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): The department intends to utilize 1. 5 staff years, as specified on page 29 of the subappropriation 23.2.( c), for the purpose of providing the kind of supervision you suggest when they are not engaged in the activities related to the quarry rehabilitation program. Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister suggesting that quarry inspectors that deal with sand and gravel and the construction industry are going to be expected to do claims inspections? Mr. Newman: Only to the extent it relates to aggregate quarries. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate how many inspectors there are in the petroleum component, the metallic mineral component and the quarry sector of our mineral industry? Mr. Newman: Four inspector functions or positions in the petroleum area, five persons in the quarry area, and six persons in the minerals area. One of those is employed by our department, and five of them are employed m the Department of Labour. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how many employees are hired in the Department of Labour that deal with petroleum and quarry minerals? Mr. Newman: To my knowledge, zero. Ms.

Mihychuk: Is it not true that the inspectors for petroleum and quarry deal with the mineral management and the operation and the enforcement of The Mines Act, similar to the one inspector in the metallics, and I guess my question is: why would the minister indicate there are six inspectors for the metallic minerals branch when in reality there is one? The other five deal with safety issues and are actually in the Department of Labour. Mr. Newman: This perpetuates the misunderstanding which you obviously had when you asked me a question in Question Period-through you, Mr. Chair.

There is an entire branch of the Department of Labour responsible for mines inspection. In addition to a head office in Winnipeg, this branch has regional offices in Thompson, Flin Flon and Snow Lake. My understanding from the briefing of my staff is that that branch includes five mines inspectors, one safety and health officer and a director of mining inspections. The roles of the various inspectors in Energy and Mines differ substantially.

To highlight this variability, but first to summarize, the roles and responsibilities of the quarry and petroleum, in the view of my department, are considerably broader and more complex than the roles of the claims inspector. The duties of the claims inspector, from the perspective of my staff, are focused on ensuring claims have been staked in accordance with the appropriate legislation and regulations, and, therefore, they characterize this as a legal inspection responsibility.

The duties of the claims inspector include assisting prospectors, testifying before the Mining Board and providing training with regard to staking requirements, and while these duties are client service activities, they are related to the legal inspection responsibility. The duties of a quarry inspector involve inspections to ensure necessary permit, lease and registration certificate dispositions have been obtained in accordance with legislative requirements and that production reports are accurately filed and the associated royalty payment and rehabilitation levy payments are submitted.

These are legal inspection responsibilities. * (14 50) The quarry inspectors enforce environmental operating standards applying to pit-and-quarry operations and provide a one-window response to any environmental complaints from the public. This is an environmental inspection responsibility. Quarry inspectors direct mining or public operated Crown pits and quarries to ensure orderly operation of progressive rehabilitation. Inspectors also conduct necessary safety inspections under The Workplace Safety and Health Act for pit and quarry operations. This is a safety inspection responsibility.

Inspectors carry out rehabilitation of all depleted pits and quarries.

June 16, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2883 Petroleum inspectors are responsible for inspecting complex surface facilities and wit nessing downhole operations to ensure the requirements of The Oil and Gas Act are complied with. These inspections constitute a legal inspection responsibility. Petroleum inspectors, as well as the director of Petroleum and the chief petroleum engineer, are designated as safety and health officers under The Workplace Safety and Health Act.

Inspectors exercise this authority in respect of all oilfield operation, including trenching, confined entry, derricks and cranes, accident investigation and reporting, and so on. These activities consti tute a safety and health inspection responsibility. Petroleum inspectors are the first point of contact with regard to environmental issues relating to the oil and gas industry; for example, spills, emissions, et cetera. Issues arising out of these inspections are either dealt with under The Oil and Gas Act or referred to Environment for input or coll aboration.

These activities consti tute an environmental inspection responsibility. Petroleum inspectors also play a significant role in client service as they are the first point of contact to new companies investing in the province. In addition, as many Manitoba-based operators lack the sophisticated knowledge to properly and effectively develop marginal oil and gas resources, the inspectors often provide information and guidance to these individuals. These activities constitute a client/service responsibility.

I might add, I just read while I was in the House actually, the Northern Miner, June 7-13, '99, issue, in a letter to the editor. The heading was: Saskatchewan Gives Prospectors Short Shrift. It was talking about the overzealousness of the officials in the Department of Energy and Mines there in terms of enforcing and acting in ways that offended this individual from Thunder Bay, Ontario, to such a degree that he concluded his letter to the editor by saying: if you want to explore and spend your money in the East Germany of western Canada, give the depart ment of mining and energy my regards.

He is referring of course to Saskatchewan Energy and Mines. If that is the kind of direction that a great deal of policing, which is done inappropriately, is in your mind, in relation to your whole approach to the inspection responsibilities to the department and a lack of appreciation for what is preferred as an honour system or self responsibility system, then we are obviously going to agree to disagree on that. Ms. Mihychuk: How many claims are staked annually? Mr. Newman: Mr. Chair, in 1998, there were 57 1 new mining claims staked and one exploration permit recorded.

That might not be an average or a representative number, because we are not in the best of times. The high end, as I am advised, would be in the range of about a thousand. Ms. Mihychuk: How many of these claims have been inspected by the claims inspector? Mr. Newman: Since last October, we did about 120 inspections. * (1 500) Ms. Mihychuk: I know that the department has contracted several inspectors.

In fact, for quite a while there were no mines inspectors, no claims inspectors, and that because of the dispute that came forward to the Mining Board-and I understand there are additional disputes-that there has been a concerted or a flurry of activity in, particularly, the eastern region. If we excluded that case, how many claims have been inspected? Mr. Newman: The contracted posttton is expected to do, over the three months of that contracted period, about 35 additional inspections to the 120 I mentioned. Ms. Mihychuk: I need clarification. The 120 inspections were in eastern Manitoba in the Bissett area.

Is that correct? Mr. Newman: The estimate from my depart ment is that there is about 60 percent in the east and 40 percent in the north. Ms. Mihychuk: Is it possible for the minister to provide a report-! am assuming that the

2884 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1999 inspectors indicate where they have been and when they have been there-so that we could have an idea of how many inspections? I find it very difficult to get a handle of the actual numbers. It seems to be fairly speculative as to the number of inspections that have occurred. I did not think that this would a particularly difficult question, but perhaps the paperwork is just not here. Can the minister also indicate, on average, how long does it take to inspect a claim block or a claim? Mr.

Newman: If you want an average figure, my advice is that the range is so diverse, depending on the circumstances and the difficulties of access and the terrain and weather conditions and everything, that it would be a pretty unreliable figure.

The other point I make I mean, you can continue to explore this line of questioning; it is your choice of how you use your time, but this is essentially intended to be not an inspect-every-claim process; it is essentially a random kind of process designed not to make claim stakers lazy but rather to make them all believe that any one of them at any time could be subjected to an inspection.

Once again, referring to that Saskatchewan situation where the East German kind of approach referred to is taken, there the allegation is made that the company had not written "international" in full as part of the company name on claims posts so that the department disputed that. The goal of our claims inspectors is to induce honourable and legal behaviour by claims inspectors, not to be a nanny to claims inspectors. Ms.

Mihychuk: I take from that that we do not know how long, on average, it takes to walk a claim, that in fact that would be an important, I think, piece of information to know, whether the department has sufficient staffing to cover the 57 1 or even to do one in four cla ims. Is the staffing ratio sufficient? What would the minister call appropriate, one in 10 claims, one in a hundred claims? Can the minister indicate what he would consider to be a sufficient inspection ratio? Mr.

Newman: If you are trying to calculate the odds of not getting caught or something, by virtue of the allocation or what is deemed to be an appropriate randomness, it is random. Those statistics are not kept, and quite frankly I find it somewhat disturbing that you would suggest that we should be keeping track of average times of inspections as if that is a performance measure, that is a performance evaluation of an inspector or something.

I mean, it would be like saying the community police or something that, you know, you have got to make-in any event, if you want to pursue this line, we will try and answer, but we do not have that information at hand, and I would find it difficult to volunteer. I will not volunteer doing that kind of analysis. It would be counterproductive, a waste of valuable time and valuable people. * (15 10) Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us what the claims inspector who was based in The Pas, what his job role was?

Did it include the inspection of all quarry mi neral sites in northern Manitoba as well as the metallic mineral claim staking? Mr. Newman: No. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate who the quarry inspector is, responsible for the Thompson area? Mr. Newman: Jack Adams of the Department of Labour. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the mi nister clarify? Do I understand correctly that we have a Department of Labour inspector doing quarry inspections? Mr. Newman: Yes, that is so. Ms.

Mihychuk: Given the responsibility of quarry mi neral inspectors, is the minister confident that this individual has the training or expertise in quarry mi nerals to do that inspection? Mr. Newman: My deputy minister and director of Mines are satisfied that they have the required competence, qualifications to do the job, yes. Ms. Mihychuk: How many active or tem porarily inactive quarry sites are there in what

June 16, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2885 we would call northern Manitoba? That would be from Swan Lake up to the Territories. Mr. Newman: The best information that my department can come up with without researching it, and this is not readily available information, as I gather, is that there are probably about 4,000 pits and quarries through out the province of various sizes and levels of activity. In terms of actual numbers, active, inactive, regardless of size, that is about the number. Ms. Mihychnk: My questions are leading to the department's ability to ensure the compliance with The Mines Act.

There are a number of questions that I have about the availability of inspectors and the size of the geography and the number of sites that inspectors are able to handle realistically. We want to ensure that the mineral industry in all sectors is complying with The Mines Act. Otherwise, we would not have a Mines Act, or if it needs revision, we would be reviewing it. However, the question of the overall number of inspectors, I think, needs to be reviewed.

If we have five quarry inspectors, and all of them are based in southern Manitoba and we have or are relying on an inspector from the Department of Labour to do the rest of the province, is that equitable distribution of work, and are we assured that we are getting the royalties and that the safety standards and environmental issues are being complied with in half of the province? Those questions, I think, are serious and deserve the minister's attention and review. Five quarry inspectors fully trained and working are concentrated from Dauphin south, or they may even go up to Swan River.

I am not sure of how far north the Dauphin-Roblin area goes in terms of a northern extension. But there are a number of quarries and activities in the North that, with one inspector from the Department of Labour, it leads to the question whether the department is getting compliance. That is an important aspect when we are looking at fairness, when some companies are required to pay royalties and others maybe are not. There is an onus on, I believe, the department to ensure that The Mines Act is being complied with.

I really was not going to focus on the quarry mineral aspect, because five quarry mineral inspectors for an industry that generates approximately $80 million of economic activity may be reasonable, I am not sure. But, you know, compare that with $80 million in the petroleum industry. There seems to be some relative equality or equity in those numbers. Even if you looked at the Department of Labour individuals in the metallic industry, they do quite a different job: they do mine sites; they ensure the safety conditions are appropriate; they do a lot of labour and workplace inspections.

So, even if you counted them in, that would only be six, and the metallic mineral industry generates a billion dollars worth of economic activity. Those questions, I think, are relevant, important, and should be of a concern to the minister, given the recent scandal with infor mation that a number of claims, I understand, perhaps exceeding 40, were inappropriately staked.

This leads to the question: are we able to ensure a reasonable compliance; and, if we are not able to, does it not lead individuals into a form of paper staking where locations are given in to the recording office but the posts are not necessarily marked and tagged appropriately? The lines are not marked. For the randomness that the minister talks about is, indeed, I would say, on the odds of being quite rare.

We have to be concerned that fraudulent stakers, fraudulent staking in Manitoba is inappropriate, will not be condoned by the government, and there needs to be the assurance by the department that they have sufficient staffing to ensure that fraudulent claim staking will not occur. Otherwise, I think it is an obligation of the government to indicate another form of staking. If they are going to map staking, then I think there is an onus on behalf of the government to make that clear because people invest a lot of time, money, energy, to go out and do either one or the other of the processes.

But, to be fair and above board, it is important to tell the industry what the expectations are in the present and in the future for people involved in claim staking. * (1 520 )

2886 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1999 Mr. Newman: The expectation is that claim stakers will do their job honourably and in accordance with the law and in accordance with the expectations of the licence, and, if they do not, they are going to lose their licence. If they swear false statutory declarations, the direction given to the department is for violations of the Criminal Code and violations of The Mines Act, that people should be held accountable with prosecutions when appropriate to make sure that everyone is aware that there cannot be inappropriate activity as a claim staker with impunity.

So the deterrent aspect is a very important creative tension in ensuring that there will be rare cases, hopefully, where there are violations. The other thing which you do not seem to appreciate is that there is an obligation, I would suggest, on people in the industry, whether it is fellow employees or fellow claim stakers or employers, managers, anyone who is a citizen to report any inappropriate activity. I was in the labour relations field before I came into govern ment, and that is what drives complaints about payment of wages and all those kinds of things.

It is whistleblowers; it is people who do not want someone else to get an advantage. Sometimes it is malici ous. Sometimes an inspection is driven by a desire to hurt somebody else or embarrass somebody else, but there is no question the inspectors in our department respond to complaints. They also have enough judgment that-some people are new claim stakers, and they might as a result be green and more apt to make mistakes, so those should be areas which would attract a higher degree of inspection probability. The answer is that it is a judgment call.

It is a management judgment call as to whether or not, given all of the kinds of ways of ensuring or maximizing the assurance that people are doing things in accordance with the rules and regulations, it is a judgment call as to whether or not you need more inspector hours, whether you need more inspections, whether you need a different quality of inspection, whether you need more deterrence, whether you need more education of people involved in staking, whether you have to encourage people to whistleblow more, to take this seriously.

All of those are the kinds of considerations which are entrusted with the people who manage the department. I do not get involved in micromanagement of the department. If the inspections and all of the other tensions are not resulting in a high standard of claim staking, the people, the management of the department, right through to the deputy minister, are going to be accountable to me for that. You were suggesting on the strength of the one case before the Mining Board that there must be far more to this, that this is the tip of the iceberg.

Well, my department, in light of that decision, is certainly going to give me the assurance that either the status quo is going to be improved to mim mize the chances, and prosecution is one of the ways to address the consequence of that one, or they are going to have to look at whether or not we do need more inspection hours, whether we need different kinds of inspection, whether we need more education. That is their responsibility, and my deputy knows that and the people in the department know that.

If you do have any evidence that this kind of situation goes beyond the instance that went before the Mining Board, I invite you to share it with the department through me or directly. I would appreciate it, if you do it directly, to copy me on it, because then I will be able to make them accountable for, as I say, making sure that there is a confidence in the industry that claim staking is being done appropriately.

In the bigger picture, I have indicated earlier that I have also asked my department to take a look on a pilot basis, more than take a look, but to move forward with a consultation process to develop a pilot project for map staking which will then see whether or not that has something that has some merit over time as a way to, one, avoid this kind of doubt about the system entirely, and, secondly, maybe to send out a message to stakers that there is an alternative if they are not going to do things right. There is an alternative which could be implemented, perhaps.

We want to find out what the implications of doing that are, and, thirdly, that the reliability of that system and the attractiveness of that to explorationists generally,

June 16, 1999 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2887 because they have to have confidence in this, they have to believe in it as well, and a huge amount of self-interest in preserving the status quo because that is the way things have always been done. But that is not reason not to look at it. It is a good reason not to think that today's wisdom and limited experience in other jurisdictions suggests that that is the best way to go or the fairest way to go. There has got to be also consideration about the big players, who probably would support map staking, and the small players, who would oppose it.

So it is a very interesting issue. It is an issue which has become very political. It is simply the kind of thing that should be done in cautious, measured, consultative ways with a view to determining what is going to serve the industry and therefore the public interest best. Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister through the department pursuing prosecution of the individuals found to have fraudulently staked claims? * (1 530) Mr. Newman: The furthest I can go on that is that it is in the hands of the Justice department evaluating evidence and will decide whether or not there is grounds for prosecution.

If there are that is what I presume they would do. Ms. Mihychuk: It is my understanding that the Justice department has actually given an evaluation of the ability to prosecute and that The Mines Act requires onus or intent to be proven and that basically witnesses would be necessary. Given that many claims are staked in areas of remoteness, it is very unlikely that there would be witnesses to the act. Can the minister confirm that there has been communication with the Department of Justice? Mr. Newman: Quite the contrary, your infor mation is not based on information that has been received by us.

My deputy and the director of the Mines Branch have no knowledge of what you speak. We have not yet heard from the legal counsel who is doing the evaluation of this particular situation. Ms. Mihychuk: Is it true that the individuals that have turned in their licences and tum back the claims are able to continue to work in the province of Manitoba as claim stakers? I will leave it open. Mr. Newman: The licence of the impugned individual here was suspended and the person cannot do claim staking without a licence. Ms.

Mihychuk: It is my understanding that individuals can be contracted by companies that hold claim staking licences and that these individuals would then be working on behalf of another party. Would that be an avenue that these individuals would in fact still continue to be staking in Manitoba? Mr. Newman: I am having some difficulty following this through. I am going to have to express what I understand you are saying.

You are saying if John Smith, who has a claims licence, hires the person whose licence is suspended to do claim staking for John Smith, your question is whether or not that suspended claim staker has the right to then work for John Smith doing claim staking work. The answer to that would be yes, but then the person with the claim staking licence, John Smith, would have to swear the statutory declaration saying that the staking was done in a certain manner. The inspection responsibility, if you will, would be that person who hired this individual to do it.

So all of the accountability falls on the person with the licence. The person who has the licence then has accountability for his performance, and the person that has the name on the claim has accountability. The same person who puts the name on the claim, that particular licence inspector is accountable as the claim holder as well as the claim staker. Ms. Mihychuk: What process does the depart ment use to inform industry of individuals who have been found to have staked claims fraudulently? Mr. Newman: One, a notice is sent to all recording officers.

In addition to that, you would have to have a licence to be able to record. So there is a notice and a requirement to produce a licence. The recording offices are in The Pas, Thompson, and Winnipeg, of course. Ms. Mihychuk: Am I to understand that anybody who may be hiring a claim staker

2888 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1999 should go down to the recording office and ask for the references or the personal status of individuals? If they have been found to have done some illegal activities, how would a company like loco or Falconbridge know that these individuals have participated in that? We are talking about industry taking on a certain onus. Obviously they have the respon sibility of that, but I know that in fact these individuals themselves have staked claims for others who have lost their claims and lost a lot of money because of it.

So how would those small companies or larger companies be aware that there are unscrupulous individuals out there available for hire? I ask again, is the onus on behalf of the industry to check into recording offices on individuals that they intend to hire? Mr. Newman: My advice and it seems to me the common-sense expectation would be that the responsibility of the hirer is to do a due diligence before engaging in an employee or a contractual relationship with anybody. One of the first steps in such a due diligence would surely be to ask that individual for a licence.

In any relationship, if it is an employee relationship, I mean, you do all your regular due diligence checks, including reference checks, which might or might not involve the mining recording offices, but that seems to be a pretty appropriate place to do a check. The other kind of relationship, a contractual relationship, those are buyer-beware kinds of relationships. I mean, you go with people that have a known reputation for performance. You would probably go beyond finding out whether they have a licence or not. In the contract you have with them, you would have presumably some warranty.

I mean, whether you are dealing with a claim staker, whether you are dealing with a supplier of equipment or whether you are dealing with a supplier of legal services or a supplier of advice of any kind, it would just seem to me that that is the responsibility of the person doing the hiring or engaging. Ms. Mihychuk: Have the individuals who have been found to have fraudulently staked claims received government grants through the MEAP or the prospecting program? * (1 540) Mr. Newman: Before I answer the question, perhaps you could clarify specifically who you were referring to.

Which alleged fraudulent staker were you referring to in asking whether MEAP monies had gone to such an individual? Ms. Mihychuk: Perhaps the minister can indicate how many fraudulent stakers we have in Manitoba. Mr. Newman: At the moment, I only know of one who is alleged to be a fraudulent staker, and I am not sure whether you have another one or dozens or whatever. I have invited you to volunteer that information, so just tell me the name of the individual, because the individual who is the subject matter of the Mining Board hearing was given a MEAP incentive grant of $7,800 in 1997.

The work there was inspected and was in accordance with the conditions of the grant. Ms. Mihychuk: I understand it is a father, son, both with the similar last name Kaus, so I think that there were actually two individuals in this specific case that were identified having participated in shady business. Does that amount include both parties? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how many claims are actually up in dispute as a result of this complaint? Mr. Newman: I am advised the first Mining Board hearing involved 35 claims, and the second one involved three claims. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us the process for opening up these claims again that were found to be fraudulently staked? What process is being developed so that individuals have an opportunity to regain the properties that they have invested in or potentially stake this land in their own names? Mr. Newman: The process is that the claims are cancelled; then they are free to be staked. In this particular instance, my advice is that the person who claims to have been the victim of

June 16, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2889 this particular unfortunate situation, Mr. Winiasz, proceeded to then stake what I under stand to be the majority of those claims again. The question of whether or not anyone else has staked the balance, my information is no. Ms. Mihychuk: This is my final question in this area. The Mining Board process was quite interesting. I had an opportunity just to sit in on a meeting that had to be cancelled because the individuals involved did not show up, the Kauses did not show up.

I felt some sympathy for the complainant who had certain expenses, and obviously the process is one which is fairly judicial or legalistic. It has some power to make decisions and involved a number of people. So the Mining Board process itself I have asked the minister to review, because compared to other provincial review boards-and I had the privilege to sit on one myself-was quite different than the Mining Board process. A lot of the investigation and the calling in of witnesses was done by government as the prosecutor as bringing in the evidence and presenting it.

In this case it was left up to the complainant, my understanding was. So I am wondering if the process is being reviewed, and can the minister indicate if the minutes of the Mining Board proceedings are public, or how would individuals get copies or even the results of the Mining Board decision? How would that information be disseminated to those interested, to the industry in a larger sense, which I think is important, because cases like this give us an opportunity to review our processes and hopefully to improve them. Mr. Newman: I think the honourable member for St.

James has raised a very interesting idea, and that would be an examination of what appears to be, from the understanding of my department, a current policy of not broadly disseminating the decisions of the board but making the written decision with reasons now available to all interested parties only.

But I certainly do support and was a major influence on the labour board of this province, for example, and any other administrative tribunal, having been sensitive to the fact that there is an interest in what decisions are by people who might not at the immediate moment be interested and sometimes disseminating those kinds of decisions broadly and even to media, and certainly to concerned media, can sometimes get a message out as to what the standards are and what the consequences are and so forth. So I think you have made a very valid point which I take seriously, and I asked my depart ment to look into that.

When I get a report back from them as to what the Mining Board's exact current policy is, I will share that with you, and I will endeavour to encourage a policy that is along that kind of line. * (1 550 ) The other point you make about the prosecution here, the prosecution was effectively brought forward or the complaint was brought forward by an individual adversely affected by the impugned claim staker, and that is the way the process works.

I am advised that the Mining Board does have authority toward costs against the department in an appropriate case where they have been in default or perhaps in the public interest, but costs were not awarded in this kind of situation. But what does intrigue me, in light of your question, is whether or not, if there were a prosecution and evidence is brought that a consequence of the prosecution is that someone was injured financially, a case could be made for restitution under the criminal system, whether by

summary conviction or otherwise. These are the kinds of things, I am sure, Harvey Winiasz would be getting advice from legal counsel about, but I am prepared to look into that as well. I think it is worth looking at, whether there is a disincentive to complainants coming forward because of the cost they are exposed to. Two valid points. We will look at those, and I will get back to you. Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): I am wondering again if I could ask some questions basically from around the Sherridon area, dealing with not only the contaminated site that we discussed yesterday but perhaps something somewhat different. It may in fact fall under Northern Affairs. I am not sure, but since the minister is also the Minister of Northern Affairs, I am sure he would not mind answering it.

2890 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16 , 1999 That deals with the concerns some of the citizens of Sherridon-Cold Lake have regarding open mine shafts or capped stopes I believe they call them. These were fenced in approximately 30 years ago, I am guessing, with page wire, but are only sporadically maintained. I have talked with some of the citizens of Sherridon-Cold Lake, also the mayor, and they feel that it is just a matter of time when one of their children is going to fall into one of these mine shafts.

I just want to ask the minister if there is a concerted effort to make sure that these open shafts that have been there for, I admit, a number of years, are fenced properly. Mr. Newman: If ever I or any one of the members of my department heard that the situation was not safe, there is a responsibility on the department to fix it up immediately. So if you have any information that there is any issue, that is something the department should check out on an urgent basis because it is the responsibility of the department to keep them safe. This is the short-term solution, the fencing solution.

These situations, which fortunately are few, are the subject matter of the orphan site strategy, which we, through a number of the departments of government, are motivated and organized to address over time so that we have a permanent solution, not just a band-aid protective kind of solution, but a solution that addresses these unfortunate consequences of what in today's standards would be regarded as unacceptable mining practices and unacceptable rehabilitation practices. The standard is so much higher now with our new mine site rehabilitation regulations and the general standard expected by the industry.

So these unfortunate taints from the past are a matter of considerable concern to us. In all of the competing priorities in govern ment, it is something we want government to invest in resolving. But, in the meantime, there should be no compromise on safety. If you do have any information, please share it immediately. Mr. Jennissen: raise it only because the mayor of Sherridon-Cold Lake, Dennis Hatch, raised it, and they thought it was a serious issue. Nothing has happened yet, but they thought, you know, it would be wise to be proactive and make sure that fencing is in good shape.

I am hopeful then that the minister's department will look into that. I believe people had worked on it somewhat a year or two years ago, but apparently the wires are down again. I have no idea how many sites are involved here either, by the way, how many shafts, but it is a concern to the mayor, so I am hopeful that the mini ster will have his depart ment look into it. * (16 00) Mr. Newman: Right in your presence I have given instructions through my deputy to the director that they should make every effort to contact that person ASAP and find out what that person has to say.

If there is any exposure to danger because of the standards not being up to the normal standards which the department considers acceptable, they should be on a urgent basis. Mr. Jennissen: I thank the minister for that answer. I will relay the me ssage back to Mr. Dennis Hatch, who is the mayor of Sherridon. I am sure he will li sten to us, and he will li sten to the deputy minister, Mr. Boulette, who would know Dennis Hatch quite well, because we were both involved with him as a student in Cranberry Portage, going back more years than we want to really acknowledge.

But, going back to the orphan sites, it is very interesting the term that the mini ster uses. How many sites are we talking about, because I walked that north country quite a bit, especially around the first, second, third Cranberry Lakes, Elbow Lake, Herb Lake, Herb Lake Landing, those regions? There are a lot of old mine sites. Could the mini ster put a number to orphan sites? Mr. Newman: My advice is that six have been identified and classified under that description.

If you have a knowledge of any other ones, share them with the department, with a copy to me, because any one of the remnants of what would be unacceptable rehabilitation practices today and would jeopardize safety, health or the image of the mining industry will be the subject matter of a strategy to bring them up to modem-day

June 16, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 289 1 acceptable standards. So you can send that message out there if there are any of these kinds of places. It is in your interests as an MLA for Flin Flon and representing all the areas that you do in the North.

It is incumbent on the MLA for Rupertsland and the MLA for The Pas, and any other MLA that has any mining in their area historically, to share that information so that for the sake of the image of mining we can make every effort to redress, as I say, these taints on the reputation of mining, because these kinds of ways of abusing the environment that are leaving a negative view of the relationship to the environment of mining do nothing but harm the image of mining.

All of us who have an interest on behalf of the public to have a successful but environmentally and socially responsible mining industry should be motivated to address this situation, and so I invite your participating in the solution in that manner. Mr. Jennissen: A lot of those old mine sites are something you trip over as you are moose hunting or fishing out in the bush in northern Manitoba. I have never actually encountered a danger, but I have heard others talk that it could be quite dangerous. It is true, mining practices have changed enormously.

I am comparing places like Photo Lake and Namew Lake mine with something that would have been done 30, 40, 60 years ago when we were not as conscious of the environment. The minister is right. It is a billion-dollar industry. I am sure my colleague has also pointed that out. It is an industry we want to protect and support as much as possible. An image has an awful lot to do with it. So, yes, we want the positive image out there, and we want positive steps taken. I note some of them have been taken. I was going to ask about a relatively new mine. I have actually never visited the site.

But I have heard a lot about, and that was Puffy Lake mine, which is closed now. I am just wondering if the minister has any information on the status of that mine, or if cleanup is involved there or should be involved there. This is a very recent mine, and the minister may have more information than I have on that. Mr. Newman: Puffy Lake, in the technical terms of art of the department, is considered an inactive mine site. I guess my way of describing it is sort of a mine in suspension because it still is considered to be something that a deposit, a product, still might be available for mining production.

So it is not an orphan site at this time. Another part of the definition or the criteria for designating something an orphan site means that there is no liability ascertainable for rectifying the inappropriate rehabilitation. So there are situations where you have not just an orphan site, not just an inactive site, but you would have a site that is in need of rehabilita tion, where there is liability.

The standing instruction to my department is to aggressively pursue any party that is liable for inappropriate rehabilitation where there are evidence and probable cause, and the best advice from the Justice department is practical, and positive results can be achieved by seeking recourse and making accountable the potentially liable contaminators. I know of at least one situation where that is in process. Mr. Jennissen: Just out of curiosity, if the tailing site in Sherridon-Cold Lake were in a more isolated area where there were no towns, would there be less priority on cleaning it up?

Is this strictly related to sites, the fact that we are attempting to aggressively address the pollution issue as in Sherridon-Cold Lake? Is it a factor of people living there, or would it be done regardless, even if that site were in a totally remote wilderness area? Mr. Newman: There is a need to pnonttze always things that involve the expenditure of money. Considerations which would be foremost would be, of course, human health and well being, but animal health and well-being and other means of livelihood, and simply respectful of all life, are very relevant considerations for prioritizing.

So one looks at all of these situations in a totally holistic way, mindful of the impacts of doing nothing. If there is a threat to life and health, life or health, that puts something into a more urgent kind of category, and that would, then, I am sure, be an impetus for moving faster with a solution. Mr. Jennissen: If I can go back to some of the questions, rather aspects of discussion we had yesterday on the Sherridon site again. I am looking at the Order-in-Council of February 8,

2892 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA June 16, 1999 1995, in which $25,000 was allocated for the water quality monitoring program at Kississing Lake and an associated engineering review, and the minister mentioned that yesterday, as well as the Order-in-Council August 14, 1996, which involved $400,000 and dealt with the purpose of funding identified civil engineering potable water supply program. Just to recapitulate the reason this was done, reading actually from the Order-in-Council : It is recognized that the tailings at Sherridon were deposited during the operation of the Sherridon mine, a copper zinc producer from 193 1 to 1951 and have been confirmed as acid generating in nature; and

whereas surface run-off waters from the acid generated tailings had affected the quality of Kississing Lake from which the nearby community of Cold Lake receives its potable water; and

whereas Order-in-Council 46 1995, approved February 8, 1995, in the amount of $25,000 has confirmed the need for and estimates for the cost of providing the community of Cold Lake with an alternate potable water supply from Sherlett Lake; and

whereas it is deemed advisable to provide funding from the mining community reserve to a maximum of $400,000 over the '96-97 fiscal year to fund a civil engineering program designed to provide the community of Cold Lake with such an alternate potable water supply from Sherlett Lake. * (1 6 10) The minister suggested that the phase two part would also come into effect at some point.

I guess my question after having said all that, once again, in light of the fact the minister has said he would be aggressively pursuing funding to address these kinds of problems, is he saying then that this proposal that is before the Treasury Board does have a chance of success in the immediate future? The feeling I was left with yesterday is that this could be never, never. Mr. Newman: We are now at the process of doing a further scoping study to determine the parameters.

Growing out of that, there will be either an application or submission to Treasury Board for specific funding to deal with this or there would be supplementary funding to the budget we approve together, or, alternatively, we would seek funding for this in a plan out of the mining reserve which would, as we discussed yesterday, maximize the opportunities for the communities impacted by this mine closing to derive benefits from its rehabilitation. Mr. Jennissen: I believe I may have asked the minister this yesterday as well, but I will ask it again: would the minister hazard a guess as to time lines? Mr.

Newman: I do not hazard guesses. I get information from my deputy who gets his information from staff that he entrusts to come up with reasoned and well-thought-out judg ments and opinions. The target of the department is to have the assessment done during the month of August, completed during the month of August of this year, and when that is done a submission prepared, giving the best advice to government possible as to how funding should be sourced and how in the best public interest the remediation can be proceeded with expeditiously. Mr.

Jennissen: So I am interpreting that then to mean that there will definitely not be any project happening this year. There will be some study and recommendation but nothing actually physically happening before possibly next year. Mr. Newman: I do not want to inflate expectations, but the direction was to move aggressively to address these things. That is the general policy direction they have from my level, so if there is any opportunity to do it this year without compromising the quality of it or the cost of it, then there is no decision made it should be this year or next year. The sooner the better. Mr.

Jennissen: Obviously, one of the aims in all of this was to provide better water for Sherridon and Cold Lake. Also Sherridon's sewage system supposedly will be quite an upgrade, and I am reading from a news release: Manitoba government news release August 11 , 1998, Sherridon to receive $70,000 for sewage system upgrade to meet environmental treatment requirements. Could the minister give us an update on that or a status report? Mr. Newman: I have repeatedly said, as you know, that the departments that I am involved

June 16, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2893 with and the responsibilities I have are dealt with in a holistic manner, but one of the difficulties of having made that statement, then having to be accountable for it, I do not necessarily have that kind of information, which falls under Northern Affairs, handy with me here. To save you trouble and make it convenient for you, if you wish, we can undertake to provide that detail to you and either put it on the record to this question of Northern Affairs, but we will get that information. Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr.

Jennissen: Basically my last question and that is, if the minister is willing to do that, I thank him, and maybe at the same time then we could check out the exact status for Granville Lake. I got a call from people from Granville a number of months ago, and I believe a water and sewer line was being installed in Granville. I am thankful for that, for sure a water line, I believe. I am not sure about the sewage now, but hopefully-there was a concern about connecting to the houses. Apparently, there was money lacking to do that.

Perhaps your deputy minister would be more up on that, and he could provide that information in Northern Affairs Estimates. I would be very happy to participate there as well. Mr. Newman: We will certainly accommodate you, and we will have that information available for Northern Affairs Estimates and give you a totally up-to-date status report. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (

c) Mines (1 ) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to now pursue some questions about the branch's process for reviewing grants to prospectors. In this program, I believe, prospectors are eligible to receive $7,500. Can the minister outline the program? Is it per claim or is it per individual? Is it possible for one individual to get several grants during one year? * (1 620) Mr. Newman: Under the program, qualified applicants may receive up to 50 percent of expenditures incurred to a maximum assistance level of $7,500 per applicant per year. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minister define what an application would involve? Is that one claim stake, one claim block? Could you do several claim blocks and make several applications in one year? Mr. Newman: It could be any combination of what you describe, but the umbrella, the total amount that applicant can get would be $7,500. The cumulative total for that applicant would be $7,500 for all of what you have described, so you are not precluded from having a diverse set of projects. But the applicant only gets a total of $7,500 per year. Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, I was told of a story where perhaps an individual was mi sinformed perhaps, but raised some concerns as to the type of accountability that is involved with these grants. How is the department assured that work is actually being done in the areas in question? Mr. Newman: The applicants submit bills justifying their expenditures and also a report. Those are looked at and that is the kind of material that is used to determine whether or not the monies have been spent appropriately. Ms. Mihychuk: Is there a requirement of applicants to actually go out into the field and collect samples? Mr.

Newman: Some do, some do not. Ms. Mihychuk: What assurances do we have that the materials perhaps submitted for these claims are actually from those sites? I would ask if we have ever had any geological staff perhaps do random checks to assure that the submissions have some geological viability, validity. Mr. Newman: My staff advise me that they are really not disposed nor do they think it is necessary to determine the sources, the exact spots. So that is not something that is a matter of concern or interest. Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, if I get a piece of concrete from a prospector, I will have to bring that specific case forward. But it does raise the

2894 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 1999 question whether individuals are out in the field and if they are actually doing the exploration, which we hope they will be doing, because the purpose of the grants is to spur on exploration and have people out in the field doing some meaningful work. So I would urge the department to perhaps consider doing some random inspections. This may stem what might be a problem or might not be a problem before it develops into something bigger. Mr. Newman: There is a very competent and very experienced geologist, Bruno Esposito, who is responsible for the program.

The approach taken by the department is not that you need either nannies or police or a fraud line for prospectors and assistance program recipients, but a certain amount of informed judgment comes out of long experience and the kinds of knowledge that you well know as a graduate geologist. Ms. Mihychuk: A number of provinces have got prospectors programs and grants. Has the department done an evaluation of our program compared to other provinces? I have been approached by a prospector urging us to consider the Ontario model rather than ours as a preferable way for a prospectors program. Mr.

Newman: An evaluation was done last year really with a view to determining whether or not the program should or should not be extended and whether the format should be changed. That evaluation led to the reinstallation of the program. In that process consideration was given to what other jurisdictions were doing. Ms. Mihychuk: Moving to the area of quarry minerals, the Capital Region is a large consumer of quarry minerals. One of our largest reserves sits at Birds Hill Park.

With the assumption that we will probably keep the park for the near future, can the minister relate to us what the reserves are in terms of quarry minerals for the Capital Region? What does the future lie? * (1 630) I know that in an earlier response the minister talked about bedrock as a source for quarry materials. This is potentially a new area of economic development. So I would be interested in hearing the status of quarry minerals in the Capital Region and an indication of how much that industry is worth, if we have some statistics like that, because Winnipeg is a large consumer of quarry minerals.

We have been blessed with having a fairly large reserve. I know that back in the '80s when I was active in the field, Toronto was hauling quarry materials by barges for many, many miles across Lake Ontario to bring material into Toronto. It was extremely expensive. Those types of pressures have not been felt in Winnipeg. In fact, I know that the importation of quarry minerals has been common in some southwestern municipalities, but Winnipeg has been very fortunate. We are close to a number of deposits, and I look to hearing from the minister what the future holds in terms of the quarry industry. Mr.

Newman: First to put this in context, the last comprehensive review of the aggregate resources in the Winnipeg region was done in June of 1976. The relevant finding at that time was there appeared to be sufficient high quality sand and gravel within the region including the forest reserves to meet demands until 2026 but probably not more than five to 10 years beyond that time. So proactively, as I indicated to you earlier, a report is being done now which will be finalized if all goes according to

schedule for completion in the year 2000 which would update the inventories of sand and gravel. Over a longer period of time, over the next two to three years, a synthesized report on sand and gravel resources will be developed. A final report summarizing the mineral potential, engineering geology and groundwater geology of the Capital Region is scheduled for completion in the year 2000, and that will be a joint publication with the Water Resources Branch, Geological Survey of Canada and the City of Winnipeg. You asked about the magnitude of the industry. This might be more specific.

Sand, gravel and crushed stone production in the province, as well as some dimension stone, totalled over $4 7 million in 1994, and, as a result, it is a significant production relative to the whole of the mining sector.

June 16, 1999 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2895 Another figure which shows the magnitude is geological mapping in the Rockwood area based upon quarry inventories and water well records begun in 1995. That area was selected because it contains nine active quarries that produced almost 2 million tonnes of crushed stone worth over $1 0 million in 1995. Just looking at total aggregate production, 1992 through 1996, the range is between roughly 3.5 metric tonnes and 4.7 metric tonnes. That is 1992 through 1996. Ms. Mihychuk: Is the demand increasing for quarry minerals in the Capital Region? Mr.

Newman: We do not have readily available demand forecasts. Ms. Mihychuk: Does the mini ster think that perhaps this an area that requires some review? Some individuals have indicated that this industry may be worth $60 million to $80 million annually now. I understand that the department is doing a review, but we do not know what the demand is, and we have not really been watching the situation in terms of quarry minerals.

Is the minister concerned that the lack of basic information about this sector may compromise our ability to sustain that mineral resource and inhibit or limit our ability to do proper management in the Capital Region? * (1 640) Mr. Newman: The answer to the question is, yes, I am concerned about it because the last supply-demand forecast was in 1976. What makes me particularly concerned is there is a certain amount of resistance now to extraction development of some of these sites as population is moving into areas impacted by quarrying.

So it is a very good thing to do at the time when we are examining the whole Capital Region and the importance of the public being educated of the value of this. The only way we can do effective sustainability or sustainable development in the populated areas is to have public understanding and, therefore, support for it as a way of generating revenue and useful product for their benefit. Ms. Mihychuk: What is the total amount of royalties or rentals, the money generated from the quarry sector? Mr. Newman: Just to save time, we will undertake to provide you with the figure. Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, I would like to share a story that the Chairman and I discussed in this committee just a little while ago when the department was looking for some information to respond to a question. That was that in I believe the Morden area a recent deposit was found which was buried- An Honourable Member: Morris. Ms. Mihychuk: Oh, around Morris, pardon me. The Chairman is clarifying it was close to Morris. It was buried under clay only to the amount of three or four feet but, given that there was no significant topographical expression, it was the good fortune of those property owners to dig in that spot.

They found a fairly significant aggregate deposit which resulted in economic success, we could say, for those individuals, because the Morris area and the area in the clay plain is devoid of aggregate material. Those communities are forced to truck it in from considerable distances. This is a case in point where I think perhaps merit may be given by the department through the minister to perhaps increase the number of projects that focus on exploration in the clay plain. We see municipalities hauling in and incurring significant costs, and those are public dollars.

If we could find more deposits that are readily available, that would help those municipalities and ease the tax burden for Manitobans. This is a sector that I feel has been shortchanged. It does not glitter. It is a basic need, and we do not have many geologists assigned to it. It was an area that received a lot more attention in the '80s. There is a fairly small group of individuals working in the quarry mineral sector. I do not know if there is the opportunity to review these priorities, but I would argue that indeed opportunities exist to perhaps discover aggregate deposits that will

2896 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 16, 19 99 make a significant economic impact for those municipalities. Mr. Newman: I do not intend to venture a speculation about what to propose. Maybe it is something that Minister Derkach might take a look at

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-45
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 45.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	baef8785aeacb2a7d9f0efe73c78337f603d04b5

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