Manitoba Hansard — 11 May 2011 (Sitting 44, 39th Legislature, 5th Session)

39-5-44

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXIII No. 44 – 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 11, 2011 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Wellington N.D.P.

MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon.

Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WIEBE, Matt Concordia N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Inkster Vacant Lac du Bonnet

1833 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 11, 2011 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee t o f r a m e s u c h l a w s a s may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom, know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 36–The Adult Abuse Registry Act and Amendments to The Vulnerable Persons Living with a Mental Disability Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Consumer Affairs): I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald), that Bill 36, The Adult Abuse Registry Act and Amendments to The Vulnerable Persons Living with a Mental Disability Act, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, this legislation would establish Canada's first adult abuse registry, phase 1.

It would also increase penalties for abuse and neglect of Manitobans with intellectual disabilities and establishes several new offences to better protect Manitobans with intellectual disabilities. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS PTH 16 and PTH 5 North–Traffic Signals Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition: The junctions of PTH 5 and–PTH 16 and PTH 5 north is an increasingly busy intersection which is used by motorists and pedestrians alike.

The Town of Neepawa ha s raised concerns with the Highway Traffic Board about safety levels at this intersection. The Town of Neepawa has also passed a resolution requesting the–that Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation install traffic lights at this intersection in order to increase safety. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider making the installation of traffic lights at the intersection of PTH 16 and PTH 5 north a priority project in order to help protect the safety of the motorists and pedestrians who use it.

This petition is signed by R. Hanke, L. Graham, L. Graham and many, many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Auto Theft–Court Order Breaches Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: On December 11th, 2009, in Winnipeg, Zdzislaw Andrzejczak was killed when the car that he was driving collided with a stolen vehicle. The death of Mr.

Andrzejczak, a husband and a father, along with too many other deaths and injuries involving stolen vehicles, was a preventable tragedy. Many of those accused in fatalities involving stolen vehicles were previously known to police and identified as chronic and high-risk car thieves who had court orders against them. Chronic car thieves pose a risk to the safety of all Manitobans. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Justice to consider ensuring that all court orders for car thieves are vigorously monitored and enforced.

1834 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 And to request the Minister of Justice to consider ensuring that all breaches of court orders on car thieves are reported to police and vigorously prosecuted. Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by A. Kaluzere, J. Kupczak, M. Dupont and thousands of other Manitobans. Convicted Auto Thieves–Denial of MPI Benefits Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Carman): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

The background to this petition is as follows: In Manitoba, a car thief convicted of stealing a vehicle involved in a car accident is eligible to receive compensation and assistance for personal injury from Manitoba Public Insurance. Too many Manitoba families have had their lives tragically altered by motor vehicle accidents involving car thieves and stolen vehicles. It is an injustice to victims, their families and law-abiding Manitobans that MPI premiums are used to benefit car thieves involved in those accidents.

We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Justice deny all MPI benefits to a person fo r injuries received in an accident if he or she is co nvicted of stealing a motor vehicle involved in the accident. And this petition is signed by C. Jarstone, K. Angers, R. Choquette and many, many more fine Manitobans. PR 160 West and Highway 16 Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

And these are the reasons for the petition: The Department of Infrastructure and Transportation has developed a plan to close the intersection of PR 160 west of Highway 16 at Foxwarren. PR 160 would be redirected to the east to join Highway 16 at Market Street in Foxwarren. Area residents have a number of concerns about the proposed project, including safety issues due to traffic volumes, encroachment on residential property, the loss of like–highly productive arable land and possible adverse impacts on the area waterways and insufficient public consultation.

Community members have developed an alternate proposal they believe would address the concerns while at the same time meeting the department's safety objectives. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider the merits of the alternate plan developed by the community members, which includes a raised grade at PR 160 and the removal of gravel mound at the intersection of Highway 16 and 160 and the construction of an acceleration lane on the north side of Highway 16.

And to request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider additional public consultations before proceeding with the project to ensure all 'locens'– all lo cal concerns are heard and addressed before the work proceeds. And this petition, Mr. Speaker, is signed by B. Johnson, B. Wenitoway and J. Grabauskas and many, many other Manitobans. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Nancy Allan (Minister of Education): I am pleased to table the 2010 Annual Report of the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund. * (13:40) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flooding and Ice Jams Update Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): The monumental efforts of the Canadian Forces and provincial crews over the last two days have been successful in enhancing the capacity of the Portage Diversion and the Assiniboine River dikes. Yesterday officials indicated that a controlled release would be required as early as noon today, but due to the enhanced capacity that has been achieved, a release has been delayed and will likely now take place at 8 a.m. tomorrow.

We're making every effort we can to safely delay the controlled release to allow for as much preparation time as possible for those in the release area. We have already evacuated people and put flood-protection systems in place in the immediate vicinity of the location of the controlled release. We are working with the Canadian Forces to deploy flood-protection systems to homes in the impacted area.

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1835 We're asking everyone in the area of the Assiniboine River and the La Salle system who are on evacuation notice to remain on alert as the situation continues to evolve pretty rapidly. I can also indicate to the House that the forecasters have now assessed the impact of the rain that has fallen over the last several days, and it will be revising the forecasted levels on the Assiniboine River upward as a result.

The flows downstream of Brandon will now be in the upper range of what was forecast earlier this week, which means that a controlled release will be very likely to avoid a catastrophic uncontrolled breach. Additional details and a revised forecast for Brandon and elsewhere in the Assiniboine will be released later this afternoon. Lastly, I'd like to note that in addition to the very serious situation on the Assiniboine River, flooding concerns continue elsewh ere across the province, particularly on major lakes, including Lake Dauphin and Lake Manitoba where efforts to protect properties are under way.

The recent precipitation received will also mean new crests on many rivers in the western part of the province. As always, the Province continues to draw on every resource at its disposal to work with municipalities and face the challenges presented by this unprecedented natural disaster, and we will continue to share the latest information with the public as it becomes available. Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for the latest flood update.

My colleagues and I would also like to thank the Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, for visiting the province today to assess the flood situation, as well as Defence Minister Peter MacKay for his visit yesterday. The commitment by the federal government of military personnel and other resources for the flood fight has been greatly appreciated. The provincial government has announced today that a controlled release on the Assiniboine River dike near Portage la Prairie will occur tomorrow morning, if not sooner. This is an extremely significant development.

The importance of effective communication strategies cannot be understated as this situation unfolds. Those who will be a ffected by this release of water are understandably anxious about what lays ahead. Much work has been undertaken to prepare for this scenario and ensure people are protected. There are many questions about the release of the water such as how long people would be away from their homes, as well as economic impact on key local sectors such as agriculture. Those affected will be looking to government for timely updates as the situation evolves.

The flood fight continues in many other regions of Manitoba as well, such as the Lake Dauphin basin and Lake Manitoba. We cannot say strongly enough or often enough how much we appreciate the efforts of officials at all levels of government and the hundreds of hundreds of volunteers who are working diligently to minimize the flood impact on their friends and neighbours. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the member have leave? [Agreed] Mr.

Gerrard: I would like to thank the minister for the update and also to thank all those who are putting in such long hours, whether volunteers or the Armed Forces or provincial, municipal and other officials. Certainly the situation along the Assiniboine River has changed dramatically over the last few days and the planning in terms of a cut, a controlled release, now, I gather, for potentially 8 a.m. tomorrow.

I hope in the announcement this afternoon the minister makes it very clear whether there's any chance that it might occur during the night, because if there were any chance, then it would be very important that people know that. And if the soonest it can be is 8 a.m. tomorrow–as the minister appears to be nodding–then that's important that people know, and it's always better if you can have it released during the day or such an activity like that so that people can, you know, see what's happening a little better. I appreciate the update on Lake Manitoba and Lake Dauphin.

I hope the minister, when he gives his statement tomorrow, or this afternoon when he releases the information, provides an update on Lake St. Martin where people are also facing a very critical flooding situation, apparently the worst that they have ever had, with some significant rise to come. I thank the minister for that and the government for their efforts.

1836 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today from West Kildonan Collegiate, we have Chris Dubiel and Devin Edwards, who are the guests of the honourable Minister for Education. And also in the public gallery we have from Warren Collegiate, we have 45 grade 11 students under the direction of Mrs. Lee Stewart. This school is located in the constitu ency of the honourable member for the Lakeside (Mr. Eichler).

And also in the public gallery we have from Pine Creek Christian Day School, we have 20 grade 7 to 10 students under the direction of Mr. Robert Plett. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Cullen). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Assiniboine River Controlled Dike Breaches Decisions Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): To the acting Premier, firstly, we just want to thank and acknowledge everybody involved in dealing with the unanticipated flood situation to the west of Winnipeg and all the way to Brandon and beyond, also acknowledge and thank the Prime Minister for attending to the matter today and for the rapid deployment of our Canadian Armed Forces who are doing very good work throughout the province today, also to Minister MacKay for his visit yesterday, and all of those municipal, provincial and federal officials, as well as volunteers, who are doing so much in connection with the challenge.

Mr. Speaker, I want to just ask the acting Premier, in connection with the planned breach in the dike that is now being looked at for tomorrow morning at 8, if he can just indicate when the Premier (Mr. Selinger) would make the final decision on that matter and what criteria is used in making the decision and also how that matter is going to be communicated, particularly to those who will be directly affected. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): I want to indicate, first of all, that we are delaying the–this controlled release as long as possible.

We have had some success with the enhancements, some significant success enhancing the Portage Diversion, and we're continuing to work on other ways to even go beyond the success we've achieved. We are continuing with the assistance of the Armed Forces to upgrade the capacity of the Assiniboine dikes, and that, in conjunction with the incoming crest, is what leads us to the point where– and I want to thank the Li beral leader for I think raising an important question–we will not be activating it overnight. The earliest it will be opened will be 8 o'clock tomorrow. Flow Levels and Capacity Mr.

McFadyen: In terms of the decision making in connection with the controlled breach, the minister has indicated in his statement that there will be an upward revision to the projected flows in the Assiniboine River. Can he just indicate what expected capacity they'll have in the Portage Diversion, what is the expected level of flow in the Assiniboine River, and therefore what expected flow there will be in the Assiniboine River downstream of the Portage Diversion once that situation arises over the coming hours? * (13:50) Mr.

Ashton: Our goal over the last few days has been to raise the capacity of the Portage Diversion to at least 32,000 cfs and, if possible, to 50–or, pardon me, to 34,000 cfs. The goal in the Assiniboine dikes, and this is– this involves the protection work, the $25 million of investment that took place over the last several months, and the–just the huge effort of our Armed Forces is to raise the capacity up to 20,000 cfs. We are currently in the situation where we have 19,000 cfs capacity in the Assiniboine dikes.

The range of the forecast, as I mentioned in my statement, has certainly moved to the upper end of the range that we referen ced a few days ago which was, at that time, 53 to 56. What the numbers mean is that a risk of a catastrophic release is there if we don't act, so we are going to be finalizing the decision probably later this afternoon.

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1837 Flooding Information for Residents Mr. McFadyen: Recognizing that the circumstances were not anticipated and that the situation is changing quickly as things evolve, there is a significant amount of concern that's being raised by Manitobans, Mr. Speaker, just about the availability of information, and it's particularly those who may be directly impacted by any breach of the dikes, either deliberate or unplanned.

Can the minister just indicate what steps are being taken to improve the communication with those who are–who may be directly impacted, as it is those people who are raising concerns about a lack of communication presently? Mr. Ashton: Well, our concern in this rapidly evolving situation is to deal with a number of situations. One is the immediate need to evacuate. In fact, 14 homes in and ar ound the exact location of the controlled release have already been evacuated. We have deployed I believe upwards of a hundred troops to protect homes in and around the Portage Diversion.

This, again, has been in the area of a precautionary evacuation, which is very significant. We're also moving into the affected areas, and we're going to be moving into the most immediately affected areas. We have at least a hundred troops, I believe–actually, pardon me, 200 troops, if you combine the work we're doing with the Portage Diversion and in the area of the proposed release. In terms of notifications, the RM has gone door to door.

We have, in addition to that, asked our EMO staff to work with the RM officials and the RCMP to make sure doubly and triply that people are aware of all of the situation that's developing. And we're sharing the information as soon as we get it. It's really important to do that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Opposition, on a new question. Mr.

McFadyen: And on a new question: One of the issues raised by people at the municipal level this morning is the possibility that water may move more rapidly through the affected area than is currently being communicated in light of drainage improvements and enhancements throughout that area that will provide just a little bit less lead time than may currently be forecast.

Can the acting Premier just indicate what steps are being taken just to ensure rapid notification of all of those in the potentially affected area and just indicate what steps are being taken to assist with the protection of property to the extent that that is possible in the circumstances? Mr. Ashton: Well, I thank the member for the question because we have assessed, in a very short period of time, not only the challenge and come to the decision that that had to be the preferred option: a controlled release rather than an uncontrolled situation.

That's important, by the way, not only for the broader area, but it's important to note that the area of the controlled release would be significantly at risk also in an uncontro lled release scenario, with much higher flows of water, and, in fact, if you look at the historic flood of 1955, which did impact in the La Salle River, there's some historical precedent for that.

It's also important to note, by the way, that one of the reasons why this location was chosen on the best technical advice available is it's important to have that release as far upstream as possible because, quite frankly, if there's any significant flows above the capacity of the Assiniboine, what that does is it puts at risk that area first and then all the way down the river. So this was done with the best technical advice. We are working on all the hydraulic impacts. This will not be something that will impact in the entire area immediately. It will have a day-by-day effect. There are roads.

There are various elevations that we have been calculating into that, and we are working around the clock, working with municipalities to deal with– Mr. Speaker: Order. Controlled Dike Breaches Decision Mr. McFadyen: Mr.

Speaker, reco gnizing that the government is faced with a series of options that are degrees of negative in terms of the impact, whether it's an impact–a negative impact arising from a deliberate breach or, obviously, a very significant negative impact arising from a breach that is not planned, can the minister just indicate, given the evolving situation, when he expects a final decision to be made with respect to whether or not that planned breach is going to take place tomorrow, if he can indicate when he expects that decision to be

1838 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 made and when that–when and how that decision will be communicated. The indication presently is that it's likely to happen at 8 a.m. tomorrow. At what point does he expect there will be certainty around that question? Mr. Ashton: As I indicated, it was important to ensure that this decision was made in a way that bought as much time as possible. One of the areas I want to stress, for example, is we are seeing on the Assiniboine River some significant improvement.

We have the capacity up to the 19,000 cfs, and with th at continued work of the Armed Forces and our technical staff, there's ability to bring that up. We then have the sequencing of that, along with the work that's happened on the Portage Diversion. Very much this is a question of timing, but you can see already just even in the time that we've had– and by tomorrow we're anticipating that we will put flood-protection systems into the area in and around the Portage Diversion. We have already protected the 14 homes in the immediate vicinity of the release.

We already have significant resources that we're pulling in from around the province, and we've gone to the suppliers for every last remaining flood deployment system– flood protection system. So we are working around the clock. We will make that decision really at the point at which we do not have the capacity in either the Portage Diversion or the Assiniboine combined to handle the ongoing flows. Currently, the best inform ation I have is that it could be as early as 8 o'clock tomorrow. It will not be earlier.

It will not occur in the middle of the night and we will make sure that that decision is made and fully communicated through the emergency systems in the municipality to each and everyone of the impacted residents as soon as that information is available. Mr. McFadyen: And, Mr.

Speaker, in the event, which nobody would want to see arise, but in the event that they are looki ng at the possibility of weakening in dikes in various places and risks arising of unplanned breaches which could occur even if the deliberate breach takes place, can the minister just indicate, in terms of monitoring, how that's taking place and what assurance can he provide about as rapid communication as possible in the circumstances in the event that something like that should arise?

And, again, it's as a result of concerns we're hearing from Manitobans over communications and a lack of communications to date with respect to this challenge. Mr. Ashton: Well, I do want to stress that the RM has gone door to door. They know their residents. They have certainly informed many of the affected residents. In fact, they have made every effort. We're not assuming that that's to be the only form of communication. We have been also–as of today, I asked our staff to work with the RCMP and also with municipal staff to make sure people are aware of the latest.

We are running into situations where people outside of the affected area are saying they have not been contacted, and that's understandable. If they're not in the affected area, aren't impacted by the recent circumstances, they would not have been contacted. They would be receiving the same information that all Manitobans receive. I do want to stress, too, in terms of the dikes, we have been not only investing in those dikes since the first crest, the ice-indu ced crest; we have been working to maintain those dikes around the clock.

We now have upwards of 700 Armed Forces personnel with their experience and their equipment on-site at the Assiniboine dike. I have every confidence they'll do whatever is possible to make sure that we get the maximum capacity of those dikes and respond to any challenge that occurs over the very challenging next few days. We've got the Armed Forces, our best personnel in the province, and we are– Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:00) Assiniboine River Flooding Information for Residents Mrs.

Mavis Taillieu (Morris): The controlled breach of the Assiniboine River dikes that are scheduled for as early as tomorrow morning are certainly going to have a devastating affect on people and property and livelihoods, and I had the opportunity yesterday to to ur the area and certainly know the scope of the work that's going on there and the number of people that are involved in that.

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1839 But I had the opportunity to speak to people in the area and know that they do have some concerns in regard to communication and information that's coming their way, Mr. Speaker, and I would just like to ask the minister if he can indicate if all of the 150 homes that are potentially going to be inundated, if they have been informed of this, and does he have confirmation that they actually have got that information? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Well, Mr.

Speaker, the RM did enact, through its emergency plan, the–their contact procedures, and they have been going door to door. They feel that they know their community and I certainly respect that. But having said that, I did ask officials today to make sure they work with the RM and with the RCMP over the next period of time to ensure that has taken place. So we're making sure that there's another round. I want to stress as well, by the way, that in addition to that, people should actually not only be concerned, but should appreciate that there will be Armed Forces personnel in and around the area.

That, by the way, is because they have job No. 1 to protect those homes. And I don't want to assume anything, Mr. Speaker. We're not giving up on anybody in this particular circumstance. We're taking every precaution, in terms of evacuation, but we're also going in there to make best efforts to save those homes. Mrs. Taillieu: And with all due respect to the people involved, Mr.

Speaker, in speaking to the municipal officials this morning in Cartier and Macdonald, they're telling me that they just don't have adequate information and virtually no communication about what is going to happen once this controlled release happens, and because they–because of this they are unable to respond to the multitude of phone calls from people in the area wondering what is going to happen. Are they in the flooded area? Will they have to sandbag? What levels will the water come to? And there's very many number of concerned families.

So I'd just like to ask the minister to indicate what information he has disseminated to municipal officials and how that was communicated, Mr. Speaker. They just want to know where they can go for answers. Mr. Ashton: Well, I do want to stress, Mr. Speaker, that one of the elements of this, I know, is that often people have been asking the question, when will this happen, and the reason that information isn't there is because we have not made that final decision.

In fact, we have specifically said it's not only a last resort, but if we can delay it, that will bring extra time to protect those homes, extra time to make sure we deal with all of the elements of this particular emergency. I want to stress as well, too, by the way, that this is a rapidly evolving situation. The first challenge over the last number of days was to make sure we came up with some other option than an uncontrolled breakout. And an uncontrolled breakout, Mr.

Speaker, I want to stress, could impact on the same people who are currently dealing with an evacuation, but with flows of upwards of 15,000 cfs, not in the range of 2,000 to 6,000, which has been the planning for this initial stage. And, by the way, with the release tomorrow, we're not anticipating going to the full release level. So we have been concerned not only about the broader situation but the people in that area as well, and that has been job No. 1 and, as information is available, we communicate it immediately, Mr. Speaker, but it is a rapidly evolving situation. Mrs.

Taillieu: And I think some of the information we're hearing today is really not getting out to the municipal officials because, as I said, speaking with them this morning, they're certainly not aware of some of the things that are about to happen, Mr. Speaker. And in the RMs of Macdonald and Cartier, as I said, they're experiencing a number of phone calls from very concerned people just wondering exactly what is to happen, and one of the concerns expressed is that because of increased drainage systems in the area, the water can come a little quicker than what is projected, Mr.

Speaker, and they just don't feel that they have had that information conveyed to them. So I would just like to ask the minister to please commit to communicating more effectively with the municipal officials so that they can convey to the people in their area exactly what they need to do and when they need to do it. Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Speaker, I want to stress one thing. Even perhaps from this morning–and I appreciate the contact that the member's had with the municipalities in her constituency. I will actually

1840 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 also be talking with some officials later on this afternoon. Things have moved even from this morning. I want to just stress that as of yesterday, we could have been looking at the operation of this controlled release as early as today, and I stress again, by buying time, we also can improve our response time to get in and protect those homes. I do want to stress, by the way, too, that we put in additional resources on the communication side. We have provincial staff that we've sent out to make sure that we can help deal with a lot of those concerns.

EMO is there. We have an emergency operation centre. We're trying to do our best to get that information out. But I want to acknowledge one thing, Mr. Speaker. I don't underestimate the stress that people are under in that area and in other affected areas around the province. We're fully aware of that and we will try our darndest to get that information to people as soon as possible. We understand the very difficult situation they're in and we will respond accordingly. Assiniboine River Flooding Information for Residents Mr.

David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): I'd like to express appreciation for having the opportunity to travel with the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Struthers) yesterday around to a lot of the affected areas, and my constituents greatly appreciated that opportunity. I do understand from the minister's remarks that they're looking at activating the controlled release at 8 a.m. tomorrow morning.

I would like, though, to ask the minister, seeing that this is significantly impacting the residents in the Rural Municipality of Portage la Prairie, we have heard concerns from the municipality about the level of communication that has been received from the provincial government on very serious issues. Reev e Kam Blight told CJOB this morning that he is being forced to make decisions based on very limited information. Mr.

Speaker, can the minister responsible explain what is being done to address these concerns regarding communication and what the government is prepared to do to ensure that the municipality has the information that it needs? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): I do want to acknowledge the fact that it's been a very significant and trying time for the RM of Portage because the RM of Portage is also dealing, obviously, not just with the homes in the area of the controlled release, it's also dealing with the homes in and around the Portage Diversion where there was a precautionary evacuation.

And I don't underestimate the challenge that that municipality is facing right now, along with other municipalities, and I don't want to lessen any of those challenges either, but to be dealing with this is obviously a very trying time and challenging time for that municipality. I can indicate that we have not only our normal EMO response teams out, we're also putting provincial staff in place because we think it's important to do that. We're enacting some of the systems we might normally use for medical emergencies in terms of phone contact as well.

We're trying to get the information out, but I want to stress one other thing. I think one of the areas of frustration is coming from the fact that this is rapidly evolving, and, quite frankly, we are dealing with circumstances in a historic flood in a rapidly evolving situation. And in many cases, if there isn't the information out there, it's because the information is not readily available to us at that point as well. But in terms of evacuations, that information is available. In terms of flood protection, we're moving on it. So, Mr.

Speaker, we're moving as fast as we can, and if there's any specific areas in communication that members can identify, I'll make sure that we follow up with whatever information we have to make sure we deal with that. Mr. Faurschou: And the minister said it precisely: Because it is an evolving situation moment by moment, the–it is most critical to have a method of communication to get that information across as quickly as possible. And this is a very serious situation that's not going to be affecting persons for a short period of time; it will be days and weeks they will be affected.

We are–have a significant number of residents, farm operations and businesses adversely affected and they're at a heightened level of anxiety because of this situation. Mr. Speaker, can I ask the minister responsible to explain how the information is being conveyed to those affected residents so they know what resources are available to them and so they can prepare accordingly with this most critical information?

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1841 * (14:10) Mr. Ashton: I want to stress that nobody that's involved with the flood response–and, quite frankly, by extension, we're probably all involved–is underestimating the amount of stress that people are going through right now.

In the affected area we're talking about right now in the member's constituency, in the area of the potential impact from the controlled release, in Brandon where thanks to some really heroic efforts by the people of Brandon working with, you know, provincial and municipal crews, now with the support of the Armed Forces , with a one-in-300-year flood–yes, it's stressful. We've had many evacuations, but we're dealing with it and those dikes are holding.

So I want to stress one thing, that we understand–I think every one of us involved with the direct flood response–what people are going through, and we will undertake to make sure that we get whatever information we have available to the affected people in that area and across the province. It's a real challenge, but it's a really important point that the member is raising. It's a real priority for us as well. Mr. Faurschou: I sincerely appreciate, on behalf of the Portage la Prairie residents, and express to the minister the diligence that he is putting forward in this effort.

However, at the present time, there is no clear conduit of communication from the affected residents and those municipal officials. I continue to receive phone calls regularly, as do my other colleagues in the affected area, because there is no advertised number to call or a communication conduit that they can rely on. And this is what I'm asking the minister to assure the House now, that he will make absolutely certain that this conduit of communication is well known to everyone in the affected flood area. Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there are various levels of communication ranging from the website and flood liaison offices, but, most importantly, I want to stress the role of the municipalities. Our structure in Manitoba, I think, is one of the most developed systems in terms of emergency response, because it recognizes the fact that it's the municipalities that know their area the best. When it comes to EMO, for example, we co-ordinate, we work with, but we work primarily in partnership with the municipalities. We have provided additional backup.

I want to stress that in addition to all the resources we've put in place, we have operators and communications specialists that we've dispatched to the various areas involved. If we need to put more resources and if we have them available, we will do that. I understand the members' point, and I can stress again, in many cases if there's a gap in communications, it really, I believe, is often related to the rapidly evolving circumstance, but, you know, if there are specifics on spec ific issues that aren't being communicated, I will be more than happy to meet with the member or any member of the Legislature.

I know we've had some briefings already, but I'd really appreciate it. I want to make sure we follow up on it, and any specifics that the member could pass on, I'll make sure that people get the information they need. Lake Manitoba Flooding Information for Residents Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, Lake Manitoba is being used as a holding area for a huge amount of water that is coming from the western part of the province.

The area around Lake Manitoba is home to many farmers, homes, cottages and businesses that were built at a time when the levels were considered safe, places like Delta Marsh, Big Point, Twin Beaches, Laurentian Beach, the Manitoba Narrows, Lundar Beach and a host of others that are at risk due to high waters. Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm for the House that all necessary communications have been made to the residents potentially affected by rising levels on Lake Manitoba? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): We've been identifying for some time now the mid- and long-term situation with flooding in this province, which is particularly applicable in terms of our lakes. Our lakes in this province, all of our major lakes in the southern part of the province are predicted to have high levels. And not only have we identified that in a general sense, even with all the other pressures that we're dealing with in terms of the current flood situation, on Monday night, in Warren, staff from EMO and Water Stewardship presented the latest information

1842 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 to nine municipalities and two First Nations on the areas that could potentially be impacted by a combination of lake levels combined with wind and wave action. So we clearly have identified it as a challenge. It will continue to be a challenge well throughout the summer, and we're working with the municipalities and First Nations already in that area to deal with that challenge, although I don't underestimate the impact of those levels of water. Mr.

Eichler: We know that every day that the Portage Diversion is open it takes almost two and a half days for the Fairford Dam to drain these waters out of Lake Manitoba. The lake is very high now and is expected to get even higher over the next two to three weeks and months to come. People along the lake would like to know what the short-and long-term plans are for th e Lake Manitoba water levels. Mr. Speaker, who is communicating with property owners around Lake Manitoba and keeping them up to date on the situation, so they can plan accordingly? Mr.

Ashton: Well, I want to stress again that we have already started that process in a very public way with a public meeting in Warren, a meeting that was attended by nine municipalities and two First Nations. I also want to indicate that we're dealing with very high levels on Lake St. Martin and that my colleague the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) is meeting with the affected communities again. In fact, the Minister of Northern and Aboriginal Affairs, along with the me mber for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff), met with the two affected communities in the area last week.

I know the Liberal leader's also had a chance to visit there, and the description he referenced I believe yesterday– certainly the description they gave which is we're dealing with historic levels on Lake St. Martin as well. We're working with Lake St. Martin already. We have agreement to raise the temporary dikes. We're working on mid- and long-term solutions, and we will be working around Lake Manitoba, including with producers, because there's a significant number of ranchers in that area, cattle producers.

This is a priority, and I want to stress again, this flood season is going to extend well into the summer. We know that, and this will be a significant area of concentration over the next few weeks. Shoal Lakes Flooding Information for Residents Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for the Lakeside? Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Speaker: On a new question. Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, water, water and more water continues to flow into the Shoal lakes Interlake region. As well, we know there is no outlet for the Shoal lakes.

It could breach at any time, especially if there are heavy rains or a high wind. Mr. Speaker, I'd like the minister to update the House on what steps are being taken to communicate with those families who will need to know whether they have to protect their homes, farmland or otherwise unanticipated flooding situation that could impact St. James-Assiniboia if the Shoal lakes water end up coming down the Sturgeon Creek. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): There is a very slow but steady increase in the water levels. The member's aware of that. I know he knows that area very well.

I want to indicate that certainly we've been working with producers in the area. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Struthers) has been working very closely. There's a lot of livestock issues, and I know the member himself raised a lot of them in this House and also directly with ministers involved. In terms of the potential impacts, the key impact is currently with agricultural land, but we are making sure we assess the situat ion on a daily basis with Shoal lakes.

One of the real challenges here is the widespread geographic nature of this flood, but I do want to assure the member that the Shoal Lake situation has been very much a part of our focus. It's why we put the KGS study in place, why we've met with all the municipalities who've identified short-, medium- and long-term options, but we're also very concerned and are watching very closely the day-by-day development as we see the increased water levels in the Shoal lakes. Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, residents and rural municipalities around Shoal lakes want to be prepared for a possible breach.

EMO officials have cautioned that nine more inches of water is on its

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1843 way into the Shoal Lake area. These lakes cannot hold nine more inches of water. This will surely have an impact on whether they spill over or not. Mr. Speaker, if there is a strong wind or heavy rains, there is a real possibility of a possible breach. Again, can the minister responsible explain how the communications will affect property residents, will be carried out, so they are ready in case such a breach happens? Mr. Ashton: I want to stress, Mr. Speaker, we've been working very closely, not only with the municipalities in the area but with the producers.

In fact, again, I want to stress that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Struthers), in addition to being out in the area, has also met with a number of the producers in the area, beca use there were–there are some immediate issues that have arisen even before any potential overflow in the Shoal lakes in terms of livestock, and we have been dealing with that. I want to put on the record, by the way, too, that that's not unique to Shoal lakes and that the Department of Agriculture, under the leadership of the minister, is working throughout the province. There are going to be many impacts.

I mentioned Lake Manitoba, but there ar e many areas throughout the province where we're not only dealing with, obviously, the prime concern, which is in terms of people, but significant livestock. We have to make sure that we can provide feed or move them when they're stranded. So we're working on this, and our key partners, again, are the municipalities. We work with the municipalities. They have the emergency plans.

We're there to support them, and we will work through the affected municipalities, who I know have been working very closely on the Shoal lakes issue for some time. * (14:20) Assiniboine River Controlled Dike Breaches Decisions Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I want to thank all the government officials, the Armed Forces personnel and the volunteers who are doing so much in this one-in-300-year flood along the Assiniboine River. Mr.

Speaker, obviously the predictions now for the flows along the Assi niboine River are much greater than they were due to the rain last week and perhaps other factors. I ask the Minister of Infrastructure to tell the Legislature today whether cutting the dike along the Assiniboine River, the controlled release, was in the contingency plan before last weekend. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): I think it's fair to say that that's always an option. I talk to our technical staff and I look to the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms. Melnick) and her staff.

That's–it's something that we do on a much smaller scale when roads are cut, you know, as part of a flood control strategy. But, certainly, is this something that is–has been used before in Manitoba? No. It reminds me very much of the challenge in the '97 flood where we moved very quickly to deal with the Z-dike, again an unanticipated situation. And the key element I want to credit our staff with, by the way, last week we were dealing with a rapidly escalating flood situation, a one-in-300-year flood at Brandon. We're dealing with Brandon.

At the same time we're dealing with unprecedented levels of water, equivalent to half the flow of Niagara Falls. So a lot of this creativ e work–yes, it's happened over the last few days putting in place concepts that can be used elsewhere and other times, but they've done a lot of work to get us to where we're at today. I can't thank them enough, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Gerrard: Clearly if this was in the contingency plans before, it would have been good to have some notification to people ahead of time. In this context, Mr.

Speaker, there is concern– given that the projections are up to 56,000 cubic feet per second coming down the Assiniboine River plus the Portage Diversion–that the 6,000 currently estimated as the maximum through the controlled release site might not be enough, particularly if there was another major rainfall. And I would ask the minister whether there is a contingency plan for a second controlled release site if the first one is not enough. Mr. Ashton: I thank the member for the question and I do want to indicate that there's been a number of factors at work here.

The weather has not been helping, and even the most recent forecast has not helped. It's pushed the current projected flows to the upper end of the forecast. However, we've been seeing some significant success on the Portage Diversion in terms of increasing our capacity and

1844 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 we're making very steady progress on the Assiniboine dikes. I want to stress, too, that the release we're contemplating tomorrow–and that decision has not been finalized; I want to stress that again–is a release that would not involve going to a full release of 6,000. The exact amount of the release would be determined, again, by the exact situation we're faced with. It would be a gradual opening up over a period of a number of hours.

Caution is very important in this case, but we have not made any predetermined decision to release the full 6,000 cfs capacity because, again, we want to buy as much time as possible to protect as many homes as possible. Compensation for Flood Victims Mr. Gerrard: M r .

S p e a k e r , a l s o t o f o l l o w u p f r o m one other issue from yesterday, the compensation for flood damage, the minister responded yesterday in relationship to cutting the dike along the Assiniboine River and flooding people, farms and businesses, and I thank the minister for that, but I'd like to clarify for the record how extensive the compensation will be. Will farmers be compensated for every lost dollar of business?

Will the same be extended to non-agricultural businesses, and can the minister assure worried business owners affected by the flood that every single dollar lost in property damage, loss of inventory and loss of business will be compensated? Mr. Ashton: I thank the member for the question, and I think the member has identified many of the issues that we are going to be addressing through this special program. I do want to indicate that it is a special circumstance. I want to also add that the Premier (Mr.

Selinger) is with the Prime Minister as we speak, and without getting into what I'm sure are going to be some significant private discussions–I know we had a full briefing with the Prime Minister and we certainly appreciate his attention to this matter and his visit–I want to stress, Mr. Speaker, that I am sure that one of the items–the most significant items on the agenda, in addition to thanking the federal government for the response, will also be us talking to the federal government about the precedent we saw in '97, where we saw a very significant compensation package in very special circumstances.

So we look forward to working in partnership with the federal government, but I can tell you one thing: We will have a special compensation, a comprehensive compensation program for any of the residents affected in the area, but we're not giving up on any of those homes either, Mr. Speaker. That's job No. 1. Livestock Producers State of Emergency Declaration Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, all members in this House recognize the serious situation that livestock producers are facing due to flooding and excessive moisture.

Yesterday the minister declared a livestock emergency. Can he inform the House what–how this action will protect livestock in Manitoba? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): And, indeed, so many Manitoba producers have their backs against the wall, and they need a government that's going to stand up for them, which is what we're doing, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, along with the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Blaikie), we did declare a livestock emergency.

Now, this makes it possible for us to use Crown land, whether it be agriculture or other Crown land, for farmers to house their cattle and livestock, to move machinery to high and dry locations. We want to be very practical. We want to be very useful to the farmer, and this is a very helpful tool in doing that. We also took the opportunity to open our emergency operation centre to co-ordinate all of these practical kinds of things we're doing to help the farmers. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Assiniboine River Controlled Dike Breaches Agricultural Effect Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr.

Speaker, the government has announced that it will be breaching a dike on the Assiniboine River at 8 a.m. Thursday morning or possibly earlier if circumstances dictate. This will have a significant impact on agriculture producers as the flood waters begin to spread out. Ongoing communications with these operations is essential as we–as you have a wide variety of agricultural operations and different needs.

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1845 Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture tell this House how many horticultural operations, grain operations and livestock, hog, poultry operations are going to be impacted by this release of water? Has his department been in contact with each of them? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, I want the member for Emerson to be very clear, my colleague made it very clear that 8 o'clock tomorrow morning was the earliest that that controlled release would take place, if, in fact, it does take place.

I was very pleased that the member for Emerson, the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) and the member for Morris (Mrs. Taillieu) joined with me yesterday to talk with the farmers in the area. We had some very good discussions, I think, with a number of producers in their constituents– constituencies. These are Manitoba farmers who are under a great deal of stress, who needed to know and were told very clearly yesterday by a number of people from this side of the House, including the Premier (Mr.

Selinger), that the special compensation package will be made available, understanding that vegetable growers may have different needs than grain farmers who may have different needs than livestock producers. So, Mr. Speaker, we plan to be very swift with that program and very fair with that program. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Bette Mueller Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Carman): Mr. Speaker, today I rise to congratulate Bette Mueller of Manitou on receiving the Manitoba Tourism Volunteer of the Year Award.

The 13th Annual Manitoba Tourism Awards Gala was held on Monday, April 11th, in Winnipeg. Awards were presented for nine categories recognizing outstanding contributions to the provincial tourism industry. Bette Mueller was nominated by Aggie Buhler, general manager of the Pembina Valley Development Corporation. Her involvement–Bette's involvement in–spans two decades and Bette has been the driving force in promoting tourism locally, regionally and provincially. Bette Mueller assisted in creating Manitoba's one-of-a-kind attraction, the Passion Play , near La Rivière, which comes up again this June.

She participated in promoting the event, marketing and organizing bus tours to the community. Bette was one of the founding members of the Pembina-Manitou Log House Tourism Centre. From 1999 to the present, Bette chaired this project, applying for restoration grants and having the building designated as a municipal heritage site. Today, Bette Mueller manages several seasonal staff, maintains the museum and organizes annual fundraisers to cover operating costs of the museum. * (14:30) Bette Mueller has been involved in many more organizations and committees over the last decade, attracting visitors to the region.

She is the founding member and chair of the Pembina-Manitou Tourism Committee, co-chair of the Cultural and Heritage Committee and assisted in organizing both the 100th and 110th anniversary homecomings in Manitou. Bette has been very involved in the Pembina Valley Tourism Association and founded the Nellie McClung Foundation of Winnipeg, of course, which, we know, the statue now sits on the grounds of the Manitoba Legislature. Mr. Speaker, Bette Mueller has spearheaded, researched and sourced funding for many tourism initiatives in the region.

She has dedicated many hours of her time towards creating and promoting tourism in Manitoba, locally and provincially. Recently, I had the privilege of having supper with Bette at the Teachers' Institute. She is truly a remarkable community-minded person. I would like to thank Bette Mueller for her dedication and commitment to promoting the Pembina-Manitou region and congratulate her on receiving the Manitoba Tourism Volunteer of the Year Award. Dauphin Countryfest Community Cinema Hon.

Stan Struthers (Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): I would like to draw attention to a fantastic initiative, the Dauphin Countryfest Community Cinema. Mr. Speaker, this project is much more than just a movie theatre. The community cinema is an inspiring example of people coming together to bring a new asset to the community. About 10 years ago, the existing theatre burned to the ground, leaving Dauphin residents without a theatre and unsure of how to proceed. After weighing out the different

1846 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 options, a group of community-minded individuals got together and proposed a plan to create a community theatre. The rest, as they say, is history. Over the course of only a few years, an astounding $1.25 million was raised from local businesses and individual donations. This display of support and generosity just goes to show how special this project really is. I am also pleased to note that the Province of Manitoba also contributed to this project through the Municipal Recreation Fund. This is truly an asset for Dauphin.

As I said, this is much more than just a movie theatre; this state-of-the-art, multi-use theatre can also be used year-roun d for conferences and conventions. It is a fourplex facility that boasts 3D capabilities, offers private rentals and space for birthday parties and other special events. The theatre expects 80,000 or more guests to walk through its doors each and every year. This theatre, which opened this February, will provide a great service to Dauphin and area residents for many years to come.

What's more is that the profits turned over by the cinema, in time, will go right back into the community that it serves; supporting local groups and commerce is what we like to see, Mr. Speaker. Whether it's to watch a movie, host a special event or to throw a family birthday party, I know that we will get much use and enjoyment out of the beautiful new facility. I would like to thank the hard-working board, staff, volunteers and all of the generous donations and donors that are responsible for the theatre that we have today. None of this would've been made possible without their dedication. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Fort Dufferin Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I'm proud to recognize Fort Dufferin, a monument that stands in the Emerson constituency and reminds us of Manitoba's heritage and our contribution in shaping Canada into the country it is today. Mr. Speaker, in 1892, Queen Victoria sent British Royal Engineers to help sort out Canada's border dispute with the United States. Their first step was to build a headquarters, which they named Fort Dufferin, after the Governor General of the time.

It was at this fort that the Royal Engineers, with their American counterparts , marked the boundaries for Canada and the US across 1,384 kilometres of uncharted land, including the 497 kilometres that now separates Manitoba from its neighbouring states. Through the years, Fort Dufferin had served as an immigration station and a livestock quarantine station. And for Manitoba Mennonites, this fort has an entirely differe nt significance. It was at Fort Dufferin that hundreds of Mennonite travellers from Russia were housed before making their way to their new lives in Manitoba and western Canada.

Today, the fort is a federal heritage site. Organizations like the Post Road Heritage Group work hard to keep the mess hall, storage buildings and stables in good condition. Preservations of our heritage sites must remain a priority to remind future generations of things past. The boundary at the 49th parallel, established at Fort Dufferin, paved th e way for settlement and resource development in the Canadian west. Mr. Speaker, Fort Dufferin has played a significant role in Manitoba's past, including the creation of boundaries.

The commission was one of Canada's first opportunities to influence the establishment of its borders and assert its sovereignty over the West. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Winnipegosis Fire Department Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize the dedication and hard work of voluntee r firefighters with the Winnipegosis Fire Department and, in particular, two long-term volunteer firefighters with the Winnipegosis Fire Department–brothers Cornelius, better known as Corny, and George Bergen. They have been with th e fire department for an astonishing 50 years.

Corny and George have been a driving force behind the fire department all these years. They do all the day-to-day work that is required to maintain the fire hall. This includes preparing for the fire department's trainee–training twice every month, atte nding conferences and training sessions and ensuring the fire truck and equipment are in top running conditions. On top of that, both men are on fire duty for 24-7. But their commitment does not end there. George and Corny have also served with the Winnipegosis Ambulance Service and have been active in the community in many different capacities.

Corny has also–was also the Lake Winnipegosis mutual aid co-ordinator for many years and has been

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1847 the lead on the junior volunteer firefighters program. He has received numerous awards for his work. But, Mr. Speaker, these two men are examples of their–of our community's quiet leadership–very humble and never needing or wanting recognition. Both Corny and George are self-employed businessmen who will drop everything to attend to a fire or respond to an ambulance emergency. While 2011 marks the 50th–50-year milestone for both George and Corny, this is not to neglect the contributions that many others have made to the Winnipegosis Fire Department.

In fact, firefighting seems to run in the Berg en family. Corny's wife, Cathy, for many years worked behind the scenes going above and beyond the call of duty. A few years ago, Corny passed the title of chief firefighter–chief– fire chief to his son, Herb. Corny and George's brother, Abe Bergen, is also a long-serving volunteer firefighter having joined in 1971. Abe's sons, Richard and Ron, have also been members. Mr. Speaker, I know there are firefighters across Manitoba like the Bergens that sacrifice so much to make sure our communities are safe.

The Manitoba government has been a national leader in supporting firefighters. We have made many legislative changes, including ensuring presumptive cancer covera ge for firefighters and retraining the firefighters throughout the province. I would like to thank Cornelius and George Bergen and the rest of the Winnipegosis Fire Department for the hard work and the sacrifices they have made over the many years when they provided service. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, today I want to talk about cystic fibrosis for May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month. Cystic fibrosis is the most common fatal genetic disease that affects Canadian children and adults. The effects of cystic fibrosis are most devastating in the lungs and, ultimately, most who die from cystic fibrosis die because of lung disease. I want to pay credit to the many health professionals and volunteers who care for children and adults in Manitoba. Despite progress, there is as yet no cure. Each week in Canada two children are diagnosed with cystic fibrosis and one person dies from the disease.

Only half of all Canadians with cystic fibrosis are expected to live into their 40s and beyond. I want to compliment Cystic Fibrosis Canada, our national health charity, with over 50 volunteer chapters. The organization has set their sights squarely on finding a cure and to helping people and families affected by cystic fibrosis cope with their daily fight. Cystic Fibrosis Canada is a global leader investing more dollars in life-saving cystic fibrosis research and care than an y other non-governmental agency in Canada.

I'm pleased to welcome here today representatives from Cystic Fibrosis Canada, Bill Johnston, and others. I want also to congratulate Dr. Hans Pasterkamp and others involved in the efforts which will lead to neonatal screening for cystic fibrosis starting this July. I understand the funding is just for nine months, and I hope the government will commit to continued funding after March of 2012. * (14:40) During the month of May, Cystic Fibrosis Canada is organizing many activities and events to raise awareness and funds to support vital cystic fibrosis research and care.

Cystic Fibrosis Canada is committed to finding a cure. Success is the only option for them. I want to congratulate them and urge everyone to pay attention to this month, which is Cystic Fibrosis month. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Dave Chomiak (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if you might canvass the House to see if there's agreement to change the Estimates sequence as follows: that the Employee Pension and Other Cost Estimates, which are currently scheduled for consideration in room 255, be followed by consideration of Enabling and Other Appropriations, which will then be followed by consideration of the Estimates for the Civil Service Commission, which will then be followed by consideration of the Estimates for Family Services and Consumer Affairs; and that the Estimates for the Department of Water Stewardship be moved to room 254 following Health; and that Estimates for the

1848 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 Legislative Assembly be moved to the Chamber following Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives. Mr.

Speaker: Okay, is there agreement to change the Estimates sequence as follows: that the Employee Pensions and Other Cost Estimates which are currently scheduled for consideration today in room 255 be followed by consideration of Enabling and Other Appropriations, which will then be followed by consideration of the Estimates for the Civil Service Commission, which then be followed by consideration of the Estimates for Family Services and Consumer Affairs; and the Estimates for the Department of Water Stewardship be moved to room 254 following Health; and that Estimates for the Legislative Assembly be moved to the Chamber following Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives?

Is there agreement? [Agreed] The honourable Minister for Innovation, Energy and Mines, for further House business. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Speaker, will you call Committee of Supply? Mr. Speaker: We will now move on Committee of Supply. And in–would– Okay, Committee of Supply: in the Chamber will be Innovation, Energy and Mines; room 255, Employee Pensions and Other Costs; and room 254 will be Health. Will the Chairs for the respective committees please go to the rooms that you will be chairing please. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH * (14:40) Mr.

Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As had been previously agreed, questioning for the department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Yes, I want to explore with the minister the questions about the administrative costs. And I–just to have clarification, I think that the minister has been talking about the administrative costs being just under 3 per cent. Is that for the WR HA, for all regional health authorities? Just to get the specifics on the record. Hon.

Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Yes, Mr. Chairperson, we have, of course, been working diligently with our regional health authorities to always ensure that the majority of investments in Health are going to the front lines. It is, indeed, something on which we can all agree. We know that when the external review was done of the regional health authorities some months–years ago, there was a close examination of administrative spending, an analysis that was done.

And we were pleased to see from–we were pleased to see that the external reviewers saw that the regional health authorities in Manitoba were in line with administrative spending across the nation; in some cases, lower. We know that the Canadian Institute for Health Information has observed that our hospital costs are third lowest in the nation in terms of administration, as are other indicators.

One of the discussions that did come up through the external review and, indeed, has come up nationally on the subject of the Canadian Institute for Health Information providing analysis of spending is the explanation of what it is that they're capturing. * (14:50) What does the word "administrative cost" mean? And, in fact, when people are talking about administrative spending, are they, indeed, meaning to speak of corporate costs?

And the external reviewers and other experts have said, what we really want to ensure that we do is capture what it is that's being spent on things that are traditionally viewed as corporate costs. The external reviewer said that CIHI used a very wide scope when they spoke of administrative costs, and they included in that patient-care-related functions that many might not believe to be bureaucratic spending.

So the new provincial corporate cost indicator was developed to address this very fact, to provide a more true and accurate picture of what it is that were administrative, corporate functions versus patient-care-related functions like infection control or quality assurance, doctor recruitment, that sort of issue. And so, Mr. Chairperson, when we have spoken in the media and in committee or in the House on the subject of spending, we have asked our regional health authorities to break out those non-patient-care-related issues to capture a definition

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1849 of corporate cost. And so, when we say that the corporate cost of 2.98 that you've heard me say, that is a corporate cost and it is for the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. Mr. Gerrard: Does the minister have those percentages for all the regional health authorities? Ms. Oswald: Yes, and I did neglect to mention before, which was an important point, it has been raised, I think, quite recently, in some debate, what exactly that corporate cost indicator includes and doesn't include.

I want to be clear that that 2.98 is not including singularly the WRHA head office cost. These are corporate costs across all sites. This is another important point and something that's been miscommunicated. We do know that that measurement is based on function, not on the singular location that was insinuated in some conversation in the past. The corporate cost indicator on average across the province is at 3.41, and we could break out individual RHAs as best we can.

We know they're getting very close to being able to have a very consistent measurement across regional health authorities, and we're testing and retesting that. We think we're very close, but we could, you know, I could read into the reco rd for the member the numbers, if he so desires. Mr. Gerrard: Yes, I would appreciate if you could. There's just 11 regional health authorities. Ms. Oswald: Just clarifying, these are–this is the

summary for '09-10, because, of course, the other analysis is still in flight. And I'm reminded, and should have said earlier, th ese are also posted in the annual reports, but I will, for the record, go through quickly: Assiniboine, 3.95; Brandon, 3.1; Burntwood, 3.52; Central, 4.0; Churchill, 8.69; Interlake, 2; North Eastman, 4.3; NOR-MAN is listed, interestingly, 4.14 in total, that's corporate and finance together; Parkland, 3.91; South Eastman, 5.07; and, as stated earlier, Winnipeg, 2.98. Mr.

Gerrard: And, just to clarify, I mean, there are various, you know, institutions, hospitals, personal care homes, clinics, like Mount Carmel Clinic, which fall within, for example, the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. And, just to–are the administrative costs in each case for hospitals, for personal care homes, for clinics like Mount Carmel Clinic included–access centres, included in those, you know, corporate costs? Ms. Oswald: Just to confirm, Mount Carmel would not be included in that total. Access centres, hospitals, all of that rolled up under the WRHA umbrella would be, yes.

PCHs not run by the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority would not be captured in that. So corporate includes general administration, acute care, long-term care, community services, administration, executive of fices, board of trustees, planning and development, community health assessment, risk management, internal audit, finance and accounting, communications, telecommunica- tions, visitor information and mail service, to be specific. Mr. Gerrard: Does information technology services–are those included in– Ms.

Oswald: My, you know, quick answer would be, no, they're not captured in that way, but there is some discussion at the table going on about how that exactly is to be explained. So I'll commit to the member to provide a more fulsome answer to how that's profiled in–for accounting purposes. Mr. Gerrard: I thank the minister and look forward to getting that in due course. In administration related to Public Health, would that be included? * (15:00) Ms. Oswald: Yes, I'm informed that positions like vice-presidents, you know, Dr. Cook, for example, that is captured under that umbrella.

The issue of a secretary in Public Health would not be captured under that, and, again, if there's more clarity that's needed on that, we can work to provide that. I'm just being sensitive about the time. Mr. Gerrard: Now, in a hospital like the Health Sciences Centre in particular, you would have numerous departments and I'm just wondering whether the departmental administration would be included as well as the general corporate administration for the Health Sciences Centre. Ms. Oswald: I'm informed that the corporate cost, you know, underneath an institution like HSC would be rolled up into that cost.

An administrative cost in a department of medicine would be found under the department costs, so not in the corporate. Mr. Gerrard: And I presume in a nursing department it would be the same thing. Would that be correct?

1850 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 Ms. Oswald: It would be similar in the sense that a chief nursing officer would be captured under corporate. An admin secretary in the department of medicine would appear under department of medicine. Mr. Gerrard: Okay. Now I have a question about the situation with people with multiple sclerosis.

Since the funding for the trial has received the go-ahead I had a concern raised by a patient with multiple sclerosis that she was no longer able to get follow-up on a liberation treatment that she had had out of province and that–I think it was the scanning or the imaging–but it may have been other aspects of follow-up as well, and the explanation was that, since this was now going to be covered under Manitoba Health–she would not be–and she was not in the trial, that she would not be able to get such imaging in Manitoba. She would have to go out of province.

I wonder if the mi nister can provide clarity on this situation. Ms. Oswald: I can say to the member that the circumstances that he presents to me about this case do not seem to ring true to what I know to be the process and what has been happening with MS patients. So I would be very interested to hear more details, if the individual is comfortable or if the member has consent and is comfortable to share more.

And the reason that I say that is that it has been my understanding that scans, imaging and so forth on the specific issue of CCSVI and the liberation therapy is not being done and has not been done by professionals in Manitoba and their issue with that has been concerning the debate about what is the appropriate training and what is the appropriate imaging and what is the appr opriate test and is there any consistency amongst providers about what it is that they are to be looking for and not looking for.

And it was certainly my understanding that this particular kind of follow-up, if you will, or even preliminary work was not, indeed, being done. Now, of course, I couldn't speak for, you know, an individual doctor that might be doing something that we don't know about. Of course, that's always possible. So, with the understanding that this isn't testing that has been going on, it seems, then, illogical that someone would be refused follow-up on something that purportedly wasn't being provided in the first place. So that would be the first issue on which I would be pleased to seek more clarity with the member.

The next thing that I would say, you know, in speaking to medical professionals is their very significant concern about being asked to do follow-up on the so-called liberation therapy procedure, when really there has been no agreement across the profession about what that follow-up is. There has not been definitive research established, and medical professionals that I have spoken to are, you know, in the main very reluctant to engage in treatment that has not been tested, approved and so forth.

So, again, I would want to learn more from the member if there were issues of follow-up outside of the imaging question that the individual patient was raising that would indicate that she–I think you said she, I don't know–she wasn't getting the kind of support that she felt that she needed. What we have been very clear about and would continue to be clear about is that regardless of circumstance or regardless of what intervention has been sought outside of Canada, if a patient presents in an emergency situation, they are going to be taken care of.

There is no tolerance for people not being treated for an emergency development, and we have the commitment of our physicians, in whichever milieu, to be dealing with urgent situations. I would also say that the claim that because there has been funding committed to a joint research project with Saskatchewan would have no bearing on what people can and cannot have in Manitoba.

There has been no such directive, no relationship, no instructions–certainly of which I am aware, and I would be very surprised to hear that there are–from the Manitoba Health Research Council that would indicate that any sort of attention would be withheld as a result of the announcement of this funding. So, in the case that the member has presented to me, there are a number of puzzling issues that are being raised that, you know, we'd be happy to pursue further if he so desires. Mr.

Gerrard: I think that the specifics related to the provision of follow-up imaging by the Maples Surgical Centre, as I recall, and the Maples Surgical Centre had made that commitment to do such imaging partly because they were connected to a clinic in British Columbia which has been doing that for some time, and that the Maples Surgical Centre has said that they will no longer be doing that because the–there is a clinical trial, and it is, therefore, a provincial service and not something that they can provide.

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1851 Now, I don't know the details, but that was the rumour that I heard. * (15:10) Ms. Oswald: Well, again, certainly, I heard–through the media, might I add–that the Maples Surgical Centre was contemplating providing ultrasound and so forth. I asked Dr. Godley about it in a meeting and he said it was something that they were considering and that he would keep me posted. But I have not had any further information from the centre on that subject.

I know that there was interest expressed, in, you know, a general sense, from the group at the Maples Surgical Centre when Ma nitoba came forward and said that the Manitoba Health Research Council would be accepting proposals. Perhaps, you know, there'll be a proposal submitted by that group; I can't honestly say. But I think that the member would need to direct the question to the Maples, because certainly there has been no issuing of a directive or a cease-and-desist protocol fr om Manitoba Health on that front, so that might be a better place to pursue that answer.

And, again, we want individuals that are living with MS, that may or may not have sought the liberation therapy elsewhere, to feel like they are getting the best care that they can in Manitoba. And if they're not and the member wants to raise some concerns about that, I would be very pleased to look into that further. Mr. Gerrard: I thank the minister. In the Healthy Living Estimates, I asked about, you know, diabetes and the efforts to prevent diabetes, and I also asked if the Minister of Healthy Living (Mr. Rondeau) had the latest numbers for the number of people in Manitoba with type 2 diabetes.

And he said, oh, that's under the Department of Health and I would have to ask the minister. So I am now asking the minister. Ms. Oswald: I'd like to thank the Minister of Healthy Living for this opportunity, and I would certainly go on the record to say that, of course, we believe tracking and monitoring of diabetes and the rates is very important, as I know the member does as well. We have, indeed, added it to the manual–the Manitoba Health annual report. Page 117 shows the '09-10 rates at 76,608 patients with diabetes. It shows the five-year average of new diabetes cases, 6,390 per year.

We know that the member has suggested that reporting diabetes–that we could consider reporting diabetes cases perhaps like communicable diseases. There may, indeed, be some concern with that. You know, real-time tracking of communicable diseases like HIV or TB, of course, is important because of, you know, issues with immediacy of follow-up.

We know that diabetes, of course, is important to track, but we want to ensure that we're building our capacity for doctors and front-line professionals to be providing that wraparound care and even more time with chronic disease than perhaps they spend in tracking in such an immediate way. It is a subject for debate; there's no question. Now, I believe that the member specifically cited type 2. Is that correct in his question? An Honourable Member: That's correct. Ms.

Oswald: I think this number does, indeed, represent all–both, so, you know, I will endeavour to provide more information, if I am able, on the specific subject of type 2 within the context of the annual report or elsewhere. But those are numbers for him for the purpose of this discussion now. Mr. Gerrard: Yes. Just in follow-up, you know, since diabetes is not, at this point, a reportable disease, just how are the numbers generated? Ms.

Oswald: It's my understanding that the reporting is likely done through data that's collected through billings, but I do want to double-check to see if it is augmented from other sources as well, which it could be. I just want to make sure. So I'll get back to the member on that fact. Mr.

Gerrard: I mean, if it is collected through billings, then, I mean, there may be a question of how well it completely it captures, you know, areas where people don't directly bill, where there may be, for example, many First Nations communities with many, many cases–people w ith diabetes–how well are all of them captured, because they're not all subject to billing in a standard fashion? Ms.

Oswald: Yes, and, again, I will commit to the member to provide a more fulsome answer, and I would agree wholeheartedly that across the spectrum of chronic disease and general disparity between–in health status between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people, that we all have much work to do in capturing data in a respectful way, but capturing it in

1852 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 a way that provides us with a real ability to work together to intervene and stem the tide of chronic disease. So, you know, certainly he will not hear me saying that I think that methodology for gathering data for illness among First Nations–and, indeed, Métis people–is as strong as it needs to be.

And I do believe that there is a hu ge opportunity for us to collectively improve our surveillance with a view to really improving service and improving our prevention initiatives–not with a view to stigmatize in communities, which doesn't serve anybody very well, but to really being able to drill down into information in a variety of communities across our province and being able to intervene with perhaps not a one-size-fits-all approach, but a more local and even grassroots approach, similar to what you'll see in many of the successful projects that exist within the Chronic Disease Prevention Initiative.

There have been remarkable successes with that program and that has largely been because there has been a driven from-the-ground-up approach in the communities, and, I think, with that approach we may be able to improve our tracking of this kind of information. * (15:20) We also know that the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy has offered some good advice on this. Their recent report, in partnership with the Métis, was extraordinarily good, and I think we have a lot that we can learn from them about improving data collection, breaking out type 1, type 2, and most importantly being able to do something about it.

But, again, I want to ensure that I'm giving the most fulsome answer about how that number is calculated, the 76,608 that I put on the record and as I said I'm committed to provide that to the member at our swiftest convenience. Mr. Gerrard: I wonder if the annual report also includes figures for the number of people diagnosed with depression in Manitoba. Ms. Oswald: Yes, I–I'm going to need to check to see if and how that is presented, you know, just general reporting on issues of mental health I'd want to review. I don't know it off the top of my head or in my–on my fingertips at the moment. Mr.

Gerrard: I want to thank the minister, and I'm going to pass to the MLA for Charleswood. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wonder if the minister has some of the information that she committed to bring from yesterday's Estimates. Ms. Oswald: I believe I have lots of it. I might not have every one. We're still working on some but I will try to let the member know. With her consent I'll just–if I could finish off wh ere I left off yesterday on the issue of IMGs, specifically in Brandon.

We have done some preliminary work at the suggestion of the member and we do understand that there may have been an issue, perhaps ongoing specific to Brandon, ab out IMGs during their assessment, not being able to work in two locations. We talked yesterday about this being a requirement from the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba to ensure that there is appropriate consistent supervision during this transitional assessment and mentorship period.

I can also inform the member that there is also a requirement to have a specific work location on one's work permit which is a federal government requirement. So there was an additional element that I neglected to mention yesterday as well.

We are working though with the college and the Faculty of Medicine to see where these kinds of flexibilities might be able to be built in so that the supervision can be as fulsome as the college wishes, but that we can get the best possible work out of these individuals who really want to be working in settings that are very nearby, and as the member said yesterday, perhaps even down a hallway.

So, again, we'll–we're going to keep working with those two entities and look at what flexibility, if any, exists within that federal government requirement, and see if we can, in general, enable these international medical graduates to work to the fullest capacity. Going back to the issue of Premier's travel, I did say yesterday, and I can confirm that there was no out-of-province travel by th e Premier (Mr. Selinger) expensed to Manitoba Health from my office. And I did want to clarify–when we talked about this yesterday I did quite swiftly leap to the fact that you were asking me about out-of-province travel.

There are expenditures, I think, posted online for travel that I've done within Manitoba and there's lots of that, but I said no travel yesterday, but I was talking about in the context of outside of Manitoba, you know, aside from the FPT meeting–so just to be clear on that.

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1853 Also, I did want to add information on the record for the member further to our STARS conversation. We were able to confirm that on the issue of patient fees, STARS does not charge patient fees for flights in Alberta. And the operations that exist that aren't with STARS, but are helicopter operations in BC, Ontario and Nova Scotia also do not charge fees for the helicopter transport. It–which is, of course, consistent with what we do with our Lifeflight program here in Manitoba as well. So that's what I thought was true, but now I can confirm that it's true.

Further, the flight crews for STARS do include a nurse and a paramedic working side by side. The nurses, generally, are those that have experience in emergency and/or ICU care, and the paramedics are advanced life support paramedics. There is also a pilot and co-pilot on the helicopter. The pilots work full-time and are highly experienced flyers; I think it's a minimum of 3,000 helicopter hours flying. And the STARS captains are air transport licensed, and all pilots are instrument-flying rated. When it is needed, there is capacity for a critical care doctor to accompany that crew.

As I mentioned yesterday, our own Dr. Robertson has done that. That's very similar, not completely identical, to the Lifeflight arrangement now. Lifeflight would–this crew would include a pilot, flight nurse and, generally, a critical care physician as well. And you did ask me a question about reading in the names of the 15 executive support. The list that I have here is incomplete. It only includes my office and not the deputy's, so I can just read it in next time as a fulsome list, if you wish. Mrs. Driedger: And if the minister, when she does read it, can just indicate the position that that person has. Ms.

Oswald: Sure. Mrs. Driedger: The–we did have some discussion about secondments yesterday, and I wonder if the minister would be prepared to table a list of all of the WRHA employees that are seconded to Manitoba Health, and vice versa as well. If any Manitoba Health employees are seconded to the WRHA or seconded to any other RHA, if she could provide that information, including the details of, you know, name and their current position that they are in now, and that position that they left from the area from which they've been seconded.

So, if she would be prepared to do that and, maybe at the same time, provide a list of all employees paid by the WRHA that happen to be working in Manitoba Health, and vice versa. Ms. Oswald: Mr. Chair, we will endeavour to get that list together for the member in the fashion that she so wishes it to be. C e r t a i n l y , i n s o m e further disc ussion about secondments, I've been informed that there are positions that are being shared, and so there, you know, there would be an effort to articulate how those positions are allotted and how those payments are being made.

And so we'll work to get the member that information. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate where– whether there are any WRHA employees working in any other branch of government, or is it just secondments to Manitoba Health? Ms. Oswald: Yes, I can let the member know that we will check at the same time. * (15:30) Mrs. Driedger: And can the minister tell us how these WRHA employees that come over here and are seconded over to Manitoba Health, can the minister indicate who pays their salary? Ms.

Oswald: I'm informed that in the case of a secondment from the WRHA to the department, the WRHA would pay–that's what the paycheque would be, but, of course, Manitoba Health would be invoiced and Manitoba Health would be paying that back. So what's on the paycheque and who ultimately pays the dollar at the end of the day is a little bit different, but apparently that's how it works. Mrs. Driedger: Does the WRHA, though, not have higher salaries than normally would be paid out of Manitoba Health? Ms.

Oswald: Certainly, there–as we discussed at some length yesterday, there are situations where individuals are asked to come and assume a position at Manitoba Health, and a secondment arrangement is set up that will maintain their existing salary if, you know, indeed, it was a greater salary than what would be typical at Manitoba Health, all being part of the context of recruiting really excellent people and sharing their expertise in these contract arrangements. So, yes, the secondment arrangements often have salaries from the WRHA that are higher than the Manitoba Health positions.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest they probably wouldn't refuse

1854 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 the salary if it were larger in Manitoba Health than in the WRHA, but, again, it's–it isn't a routine arrangement. But, as part of recruiting the best possible people into the right position at the right time, a secondment arrangement is one that has been pursued in order to secure that expertise. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister explain, though, when somebody is seconded over here, they're coming into a totally different job than what they had over at the WRHA, are they not?

Like, they would have a separate job description here that may not be the same as the one they had over there. They may bring a certain area of expertise, I suppose. But can the minister just confirm that it is, indeed, a separate job here within the civil service that has its own job description? Ms. Oswald: So, I guess, what I would say in response to the member's question is, no and yes.

Yes, an individual would come over on secondment from WRHA to a position that would have a different description, like, for example, an individual that's been brought over with lots of expertise in primary care and did lots of work within the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority on developing, you know, primary care renewal, and–but it would have been a Winnipeg focus. And she would be brought over on secondment to Manitoba, and the job description would, in large part, be similar in doing that renewal but would now have a provincial context and would have a wider perimeter and view.

So, I mean, the reason that people, you know, in–for the most part, are seconded is because of that expertise, and so they may be doing a job that has, you know, a number of differences to it. All regional health authorities versus one regional health authority but may, in fact, have at the centre focus a very, very similar role, you know, in terms of leadership and development. And again, as I said yesterday, the secondment ag reements are very, very clear about to whom that person would report. Again, it's not a routin e arrangement.

There are times when these secondments have to do with highly technical areas that require that technical expertise, and we have, as I said yesterday, used over time the arrangement of the secondment to get the best possible person with the best experience and knowledge at the right time. And we spoke at length about this yesterday, I believe. I suppose, length is a relative term; it seemed lengthy–about the fact that you know, we're open to exploring alternative methods of contracting if there's a way that is superior to using the secondment.

We wouldn't be adverse to looking at a new way of arranging these kinds of positions or arranging these kinds of contracts. Our real goal, of course, is getting the expertise, technical, front-line care, medical, whatever the case may be, so that we can help moving forward with our initiatives in the best way that we can.

We know that a number of these individuals are tapped on the shoulder by other jurisdictions, indeed, other jurisdictions that are paying far heftier remuneration than we see in the context in Manitoba and it's about striking a balance, being able to not only recruit people, but retain them and being very aware that, you know, there's so much excellence in Manitoba t h a t w e h a v e t o w o r k v e r y h a r d t o d o w h a t w e c a n through secondments or otherwise to keep these really blockbuster people here with us in Manitoba. Mrs.

Driedger: In these seconded positions, does the WRHA still pay for their benefits? Ms. Oswald: Yes, I'm informed it's the same scenario. They would pay. Manitoba Health would reimburse. Mrs. Driedger: And would you generally say that their benefit program is better than what is offered here in Manitoba Health? Ms. Oswald: Y e s , a g a i n , I ' m i n f o r m e d b y m y experts that it's quite different, actually, and the evaluation or assessment of better, one better than another, I think I'd have to do more analysis to come up with that value judgment, but I can confirm that it is quite different. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister indicate whether or not the job at the WRHA then is left unfilled, or how does the WRHA manage with the loss of these positions that have been seconded to Manitoba Health? * (15:40) Ms. Oswald: Again, I'm informed that oftentimes the positions that have been vacated will be backfilled with other people. They're–you know, usually these are pretty important people and they need to have that position filled, whether it's temporarily or, you know, in the longer term. So, for the most part, I believe that's true, perhaps not every time. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister just confirm–I think she said yesterday there might be 15 people on secondment now. I know in the past, the deputy

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1855 minister was, there was one ADM and I think one other person that has–was seconded from the WRHA. It seems to have increased substantially if we're up to 15 now. Can the minister just confirm what that number might be? Ms. Oswald: Yes, we can certainly double-check that, particularly in the context of the other answers we're going to get for the member.

I do recall being asked these questions in Committee of Supply in the past, and I'm not sure that the answer that I gave then, which I think was with a narrower context or focus–if I'm remembering correctly, that is. I think it was a question concerning ADMs or senior management that had been seconded. And I believe when I answered this time, it was with a more fulsome accounting. So I'm not sure that I would want to compare one year to another, in case I didn't read all the names in because I wasn't asked to read them in that way.

In any event, we will be, you know, in this context of providing answers to the member about job descriptions and who's gone one way and who's come back the other, we should be able to round out that number in a way that will be satisfactory for her. Mrs. Driedger: Does the minister have any sense of whether or not this is common practice across all departments in government, to second people from other organizations and entities that they're closely aligned with? Ms. Oswald: I would have to check. I don't particularly know about what might happen with Education or, you know, science, technology.

I'd have to–I'd really have to look. I'm not aware. Mrs. Driedger: Is there a dedicated unit in her department for ministerial correspondence? Ms. Oswald: There is a correspondence unit for Manitoba Health. I'm not sure that I would describe it in terms that it's only for letters that come to me. I think, you know, it would be through the department–I'm getting nods, yes, that's right. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate how many people are working in that particular unit? Ms.

Oswald: I'm tempted to give the same answer as one of my colleagues as to how many people in the unit–how many people are working in the unit: all of them are working. But, in all seriousness, and not to hold up time here, we'll confirm for the member what the precise number is. I just want to check if there's a vacancy or not and not give you incorrect information. Mrs. Driedger: Is there a specific budget set aside for this particular unit? Ms. Oswald: I can inform the member that there isn't a specific cost centre for the correspondence unit per se.

It would be captured under–I forgot the term–management services. Mrs. Driedger: If the minister would be able to, I would appreciate a little bit more information about that, in terms of how many people are working in that particular unit, who they are–and does the minister have any idea of how many letters? I know I get a lot of letters of complaint from patients about the health-care system. And, I mean, I then send them to the minister, and she obviously has somebody do the research and then respond back. So I'm sure this is probably one very, very busy department.

And I certainly, you know, appreciate their efforts, because I kn ow how much work that my one assistant has to handle, in terms of all these letters of complaint that we get from the public. So is there any sense of how many letters go through that department in a year? Ms. Oswald: Well, lots is for sure, and the member is, you know, neglecting to mention the letters of commendation that we have to deal with, as well. So I think that that would be an important point to raise.

But, when you combine, you know, formal letters that are written, email letters that are written and phone calls from which correspondence is generated, yes, there is no question that there are plenty of contacts. And I can endeavour to get an estimate for the member. We know that letters come in, requesting meetings. Letters come in with really good ideas, actually, and those usually come combined with meeting requests.

We know that we get letters, you know, asking questions about navigating the system, and we certainly do endeav our to measure trends in letters, you know, because, of course, this would indicate that the information that is out for the public, which we, you know, we really try hard to provide as much as possible decreased red tape, open doors, open portals. But, if we see trends in letters, people asking the same question about something that we had thought we communicated very cl early and obviously had not, it's a very instructive piece of information. And

1856 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 individuals in the corresp ondence unit are really helpful, in many ways, helping us drive policy because of communications that they're noticing and trending. I can tell the member that the correspondence unit is currently comprised of Gail Wiggins, who co-ordinates the unit; Julie Thompson; there's a vacancy for a writer at present. Judi Petricig and Laura Truman are also working in very close partnership, might I add, with staff in my office as well. They work together to try to help manage the load.

Some of the letters that–certainly working together to deal with correspondence. Some of the correspondence we get is, you know, almost exclusively political in nature, and we, you know, want to be able to be responsive to that and leave, you know, departmental kinds of details and responses for this unit to work on approximately 1,200 letters annually from the public. And this unit also co-ordinates the other kinds of letters that we have to do and, in fact, wish to do, like recognition letters for staff and co-ordinating letters that are routed through to regional health authorities.

So 1,200 just from the public, and then all of the others on top of that as well. They work hard and I appreciate them. And you have one person and I've got a few, so–but you aren't getting those letters of commendation as I said, so probably that would cut the volume in half. * (15:50) Mrs. Driedger: The minister brought forward some information about the IMG program in Brandon and has indicated that there is some effort being made to try to resolve some of these concerns. Is there a time frame put on that in terms of when or how long this might take for resolution? Ms.

Oswald: It's my understanding that this is ongoing. It has–perhaps, not specific to Brandon, but specific to the concept that the member raised, it's– has been tried to be amended for a while now. Perhaps, the specific case of Brandon is going to, with luck, help us unlock some of the logjam. I'm sorry that I can't commit a date to the member right at this time.

But, certainly, we would want to see a swift resolution and, if possible, amendment to the process that would in no way compromise the requirements and the standards that are being put forward by the college but, indeed, would help the ongoing operations and daily work happen in a more expedient way, if possible. So, certainly, I can commit to the member that there's every effort being made to try to come to a swift resolution. Mrs. Driedger: In the budget speech, there is a mention that the salaries for senior management in the regional health authorities have been frozen.

Can the minister indicate the length of time for that freeze? Ms. Oswald: Yes, I can confirm for the member that this has been in place since February of '09, and these are yearly asks and requirements. And we have, indeed, just as of this February–or, I should say, in recent funding letter information to the RHAs–reconfirmed that that will be sustained for the coming year. Mrs. Driedger: How many senior management positions does this affect? Ms. Oswald: Yes, I can have my staff count up those persons and give the member a total, hopefully tomorrow–not tomorrow, Friday, I think. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister actually provide a list of all senior management in all of the RHAs? Ms. Oswald: Just to go back to the last question, I can just confirm that the–that freeze would apply to the CEOs and their direct reports. And, I believe, in reference to the question that the member just asked, that that information would be in the compensation reports. And, I mean, we could compile that for the member if she so desired, but I think it is out there and existing now, if she wanted to check in that way. Mrs. Driedger: If the minister would be prepared to provide it, that would probably be more helpful.

I don't want to make assumptions and put people's names into that list that don't belong there. And I think it would be probably much more helpful to know who the people are and what their positions are. And can the minister explain what constitutes or what's the definition of senior management? Ms. Oswald: Yes, I can inform the member that the senior management, as defined to the individuals that would have received the correspondence and their– the aforementioned freeze, would be the CEOs and those that report directly to the CEO. Mrs.

Driedger: What's confusing in all of that though, is who actually reports to the CEOs. There are no clear–there is no clear information out there in

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1857 terms of who those reporting entities are. You know, certainly we know the vice-presidents but, you know–and you could look at an org chart and assume that vice-presidents, executive directors, you know, other entities like that, but who knows, there could be others that are just not put on org charts that actually do report. So that's why I think it would be helpful to see the list of and who these people are and their positions. Beyond senior management, then, in RHAs, what are the other levels of management? Ms.

Oswald: And, again, to go back to one of the previous questions, I will, for the member, endeavour to, you know, provide that information for her about names and positions if she would view that to be a more expedient way to get that information. Each regional health authority in their annual report endeavours through an org chart to show what other levels of management might be. It is true that we do not dictate to the regions what their organizational structure must be.

We have had much dialogue with the regional health authorities about uniqueness of their regions and a desire to have their managerial complement organized in a way that would best serve the unique needs of their region.

So, in the case of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, when I look at th eir organizational chart, we see the board of directors; the president and CEO; and then around the president and CEO there's COO of Pan Am; ED, Research and Applied Learning; regional director, Communications, Public Affairs; a director of Internal Audit; an ED of Planning and Corporate Services; general counsel and corporate secretary; director of Media Relations; and executive director of Joint Medical Staff Division.

And listed underneath that structure there are various vice-presidents for areas ranging from Clinical Services and the chief me dical officer to chief nursing officer, financial and VP in charge of Aboriginal Health. And, again, at the risk of wasting time and reading the whole chart, in each RHA would show what other management would be, in my view, through their organizational chart.

And, indeed, it is not consistent across RHAs and that's actually quite a deliberate decision in endeavouring to allow regional health authorities the opportunity to construct that management structure to meet the needs of their own region. * (16:00) Certainly, if we saw a regional health authority, you know, growing in an unfettered way at the management level with no clear rationale for the programming that they were purported to be managing, we would have questions about that.

But, as the external review of regional health authorities showed, and, certainly, as the–as CIHI has shown, Manitoba is not out of line in its administrative levels, and, indeed, those corporate costs are trending down, which we believe to be a good thing. Mrs. Driedger: One thing that CIHI did indicate, that, along with Québec, Manitoba had the highest percentage of nurse managers. I think it was something like 13 per cent compared to other provinces which don't have that many managers at that level.

So, when one looks at management levels, it's, you know, one thing to look at org charts and be able to make some, you know, assumptions based on org charts, but there's probably many other levels below that. And we're certainly hearing it from front-line professionals that feel–you know, in Toyota you have four levels from the top to the bottom, and one physician actually said to me he feels like, in Manitoba, it's 200 levels between, you know, the top and the bottom.

And that's the kind of feeling that is out there in terms of trying to–you know, for these front-line people trying to work with this system, they feel that it's very, very top heavy and takes a lot in terms of decision making. So, when the minister was reading out, for instance, with the WRHA, those, you know, levels of senior managers, where does the–where do the program managers fit in there? Because you've got medical program heads, nursing program heads. I think there are, you know, a ll the allied professions; there's a head of that too.

And so, you know, there's a whole another level, and then, beneath them, there's another level of management. Like, how many levels of management do–you know, is the minister really aware of within this system? Ms. Oswald: Well, yes, and certainly the issue of relationships in regional health authorities between front line and management has, I think, since the very beginning of regionalization, has been an ongoing dialogue. There is no question about that.

It has taken a variety of different forms and, you know, has sometimes been an us-them and sometimes less so, but it is really something that requires, I think, ongoing observation and study and nurturing, really.

1858 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2011 Interestingly, the extern al review of regional health authorities talked about administrative costs being in line with other jurisdictions and also made mention of the fact that efforts were made–were being made across regional health authorities to hold the line on administrative funding–or spending, I should say.

But one of the recommendations that they did make, and an observation that they did make, was that there weren't enough middle managers, which, you know, is not something you often hear, are people leaping up out of the bushes saying, we need to have more middle managers. And so it was a curious observation to us, but they did articulate an ar gument about the fact that there have been a number of new and very important initiatives brought forward in regional health authorities.

And people working on the front line were telling the external reviewers that they not only appreciated and welcomed but, indeed, demanded more connection with someone in a leadership role to help roll out some of these initiatives. And it was their recommendation to us to actually work to increase the level of middle management. And we have, for the most part, resisted fulfilling that recommendation.

But we continue to listen to those working on the front line that also want to find a balance between having too much administration–and, in some people's eyes, any administration is too much, let's face it, but, in other people's eyes, they want to be able to have direct, frequent and daily contact with someone in charge that can, indeed, manage and effect change in an expedient way.

And in situations where perhaps the external reviewers noted that these kinds of managers were not in an abundant enough supply, there were concerns from front-line workers that they felt disconnected to those that would be in more senior roles.

So we're working with our regional health authorities, with members of the board in endeavouring to strike the right balance, the right complement of leadership, and the kind of leadership we know–or I should say I know that when I speak to those on the front line it's–the managers that they appreciate most are really the servant leaders, those that are in positions of control, command and control, but really would not ask anyone on the front line to do anything that they wouldn't be prepared to do themselves, rolling up their sleeves, working at the bedside.

And so I would acknowledge the member's comments and say that we know that we have to be ever vigilant in finding exactly the right balance of those in leadership positions and those working on the front line every day, making sure that there's connectivity between those in the highest level of decision-making scenarios and with those that are working on the front line, and that it needs to be seamless and responsive a nd that's something that we're committed to work with our RHAs to help them achieve. Mrs.

Driedger: The newspaper through rural Manitoba in the fall had indicated that a lot of the RHAs across the province were going to take a major hit for expenses, but Treasury Board stepped up and provided funding for each y ear. It was referenced as bailouts in the rural media. Can the minister tell us why bailouts of RHAs happened and whether or not this was across the board and what this is all about? Ms.

Oswald: And, again, we work with our regional health authorities through an extensive process, and people at the RHAs work very, very hard through their consultation process with the public in developing their health plans, doing their health assessments and making sure that we can budget and develop increases to RHAs, not just for price in volume, but for the initiatives that they want to develop. And, certainly–I mean, we would, to be frank, never say to the RHAs, you know, go forth, don't worry if you find yourself in a deficit, we'll pay for that.

It would be fiscally irresponsible, and I believe the RHAs to be responsible. But in situations where they do experience pressures, whether it is with volumes or other issues, Manitoba Health has always, over time, worked with the regional health authorities to get them to balance and to ensure that they can be providing the services to people on the front line as they need them. I mean, I don't believe that the term bailout is at all accurate for the kind of work that goes on. I mean, a bailout is a billion dollars in Alberta and what happened there, that was the mother of all life preservers.

These are ongoing dialogues with regional health authorities being responsive to patient needs. * (16:10)

May 11, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1859 Mrs. Driedger: It's actually some of the board members of RHAs that did make reference to them as bailouts, you know, so that's where the term came from and so that's how, you know, a number of the RHAs actually responded to this. But can the minister explain, you know, what Treasury Board–how much money they

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-5-44
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 5th hansardpdf 44.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bb2ec6bc3f7053ad9b4892ee9e22e6d3817bab90

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