VOL. 3 NO. 35 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRAl'ISCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, APRIL 20, 1978 l I· I . i ' - ~ . I " t . \ . ,.

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1248 N}! - 1 the House met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 000 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, two matters I wish to raise, Sir. First of all,I am sure that hon. gentlemen would like to be reminded that today is the eighteenth anniversary of the opening of this hon. House, this Chamber that we sit in today.

As members know, before this Chamber was opened on this day.I think in 1960, and so the new House of Assembly is eighteen years old, before today all the meetings, as hon. gentlemen will remember, were held down in the old Colonial Building. Now there has been some talk of late, Mr. Speaker, of building a new building here near Confederation Building and of putting extensions on Confederation Building and so forth. And at one stage I believe somebody, I believe it was the hon. the Premier, mentioned that even a new House of Assembly may be built.

I do not think that is proper, Sir, to build Houses of Assembly,you know,every ten, fifteen or twenty yeas. I think this House, if an extension is put on this building or a new building put up, that this House of Assembly should remain as is. Now, Mr. Speaker, the other matter I wish to raise has to do with another anniversary, the birtday really I suppose, the tenth anniversary of Mr. Trudeau being Prime Minister of Canada, Ana I would like to make a motion, Sir, if the hon. Government House Leader ·~uld support the motion, that this House recognize the tenth anniversary of Mr.

Trudeau being Prime Minister of Canada in view of the fact now, Mr. Speaker, t.hat members on the opposite side are talking about reopening Term 29 and negotiating benefits and assistance with the Government of Canada. But it would be a good gesture, on the part of this House, Sir, . . . r· ' ,.

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1248 NH - 2 H:R. NEARY: and I hope that all members w~ll agree, that ten years ago today, Sir, at 11:29 on Saturday morning, Pierre Elliott Trudeau swore an Oath of Allegiance as the new Prime Minister, Chief of the Queen's Pri~~ Council for Canada, head of the Country's twenty-ninth ministry since Confederation. And, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a li!Otion. I hope the han. Government House Leader will second it, that a message of congratulations be dispatched by Your Honour to the Prime Minister of Canada, a message of -I congratulations to Mr.

Trudeau, who is celebrating his tenth year as Prime Minister of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: HR. SPEAKER: The han. iUnister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a report of leases issued under The Hineral Act, 1976, pursuant to section (3) of that act, and there are copies for everybody.

This has to do with the mining companies and so on which took out leases ana licences and the areas in the Province where these licences were taken out, the size of the area, in hectares,of course, and when - I ._, they were taken out. So I hereby table .this. NOTICES OF MOTION: I MR. HICKMAN: lk, Speaker, on behalf of the ~inister of Consumer ! I =t Affairs and Environment, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Regulate The Discounting Of Income Tax Refunds." !• ORAL QUESTIONS: I !IlL SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. ~ffi.. '..I.N. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I have got them all whipped into ~ c· competitive shape, Mr. Speaker. Healthy competition. \>/here is the Premier, lk. Speaker? I had a question for the P!."emier. l;Jould

April 20, 1978 Tape ~o. 1248 NM- 3 HR. W.N. ROWE: the House Leader mind telling us if the Premier is going to grace us with his presence today? AN HON. ·MEMBER: He will be here during Question Period. MR. W.N. ROWE: He will be here during Question Period, Mr. Speaker. He cannot do the House the courtesy of being here when it opens. I have a question, Sir, for the - since I cannot ask the Premier - for the m.nister of Public - where is the Minister of Public Works, Mr. Speaker? Mr.

Speaker, it is a very difficult process to ask questions when ministers will not - MR. !iEARY: Well,ask the former Minister of Public Works. He is involved in it. MR. W.N. ROWE: I cannot ask the former ~inister of Public Works, although he is the man who should be answering it. I will have to ask the House Leader, Sir, on the government side, although, Sir, the success ratio on getting any information from the House Leader is very low. MR. NEARY: Zero. MR. W.N. ROWE: Zero. Nil. MR. NEARY: So narrow-minded he would not even congratulate the Prime Minister. MR. NOLAN: Not unless he puts him on the bench. HR.

NEARY: He will never make the bench that way. ~!R. W.N. ROWE: Will the Government House Leader tell the members of ~he House whether it is still the procedure of the government, particularly in the Department of Public Works, to draw up lists of contractors with whom they will do business and with whom only they will do business? MR. SPEA.~R: The hon. Government House Leader. ~IR. HICKMA."i: As far as I know, Mr. Speaker, the Public Tendering Act is followed very assiduously by the Department of Public Works and Service.;;. .. . .. ~- f.

;April 20, 1978 Tape 1249 PK - 1 Mr. W. Rowe: Will the hon. Rouse Leader on the government side indicate, Sir, whether it is the policy of this government, the ·.· continuing policy of this government as it was up until last year,in any event subequent to the passing of the Public Tenders Act, by the way, for ministers to direct civil servants as to who shall get particular construction jobs and construction work? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. RICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, before answering that question - MR. NEARY: Do not tell us there is an enquiry on, we know all about it. MR. HICKMAN: Yes.

There is a judicial enquiry - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: I will answer that question, · but I ••ant at the same time to direct His Honour's attention to the fact that there is a judicial enquiry set up at the request of this House, and matters I that are presently before this .iudicial enquiry, in my opinion, fall I within the sub judice rule, and consequently cannot be commented on in this House. I .: MR. NEARY: Should•e not bring it to the attention of the House? MR. HICKMAN: And, Mr.

Speaker, the question that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition asked me is whether or not it is customary, I say it again, for the Minister of Public Works and Services to direct,or the policy at this time to direct a public servants to follow a list. I am instructed that the answer to that question is, it is not. MR. W. ROWE : A further supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. W. ROl.JE: On the point raised by the minister,I presume by some kind of a half-baked point of order, Sir, I am not referring to any public enquiry that is going on.

A public enquiry may be going on as to pas t practices of the government or present practices of the government on a variety of subjects. I do not know. Surely the

April 20, 1978 Tape 1249 PK .,. 2 MR. W. ROWE: House Leader does not think that all information and all government must cease while a public enquiry on a certain aspect of government is going on? The scandalous practice, Sir, of the bepertment of Public Works Minister to draw up a list and direct civil servants to deal only with those, I am not talking about what happened in the past. I am talking about what is happening now.

And I would like to ask the minister, Sir, if he is prepared as a member of the present government to tell this House as a minister, Sir, that no department of government,including the Department of Public Works, presently has a list of favourite contractors of any kind whom they will deal with to the exclusion of any others? I would like the minister to guarantee to this House, Sir, that should a list does not presently exist. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: The answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is absolu tel~r not. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile, & supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir, arising out of the various types of scandal that my hon. friend is referring to, could the Government House Leader tell the House· and if the minister does not have the information, could the minister get the information? - last night there was a political meeting in Grand Falls, and I would like to know if the two gentlemen who attended that policial meeting had the use of the government aircraft to fly them out to Gander in time to attend that meeting? AN. RON. MEMBFR: No. MR. NEARY: The answer is, no ?

T hey did not use the government aircraft? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NOLAN: Tell us, 'Jim'. MR. HICKMAL'I: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy can answer that. ~· . I ... I· .I - 1 .•

April 20, 1978 Tape 1249 PK - 3 MR. PECKFORD: Yes, I can answer that, Mr. Speaker. I took the government aircraft to Gander last night to speak to the Rural Development Council, and was asked by the bon. member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) and the hon. member for Ferryland (Mr. Power) if they could come along, and I said, yes, and they did come on the govar1ment aircraft last night with me to Gander. SOME RON. ~ERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary· MR.

NEARY: As this was a political meeting of the District Association in Grand Falls, Sir, which these two gentlemen attended, would the minister indicate whether or not a bill will be sent to the P.C. Association or these two oeople will be charged for their trip? And did the minister just cook un this trip so he could take these two gentlemen out to Gander to get to Grand Falls on time for that meeting. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as it is customa~y for all members in the House, Sir, there have been times in the past when members of the Opposition - MR.

NEA!i.Y: On business, government business. MR. PECl~FORD: No, no! Have - MR. NEARY: No district business. MR. PECKFORD: - gone to their districts on the government aircraft MR. NEARY: Yes. Fell give us some - MR. PECUORD: - when the ~ircraft was dispatched by a minister of the C:cown.

As it so happened yesterday evening I had to get to Gander within a half an hour after the House closed, and had hired the plane or whatever way you want to put it, to go there and these two han. gentlemen asked if they could go along with me, and I said, yes, in the same way as in other cases in the past, other hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House have been aboard that plane when it has been under the auspices of some minister or the Leader of the Opposition or whatever.

April 20, 1978 Tape 1250 EC - 1 NR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. }!R. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner: HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am well aware of the fact that the government aircraft being used by ministers have offered members lifts when they are going on official business to their districts, For instance, I went once when the Minister of Fisheries,who was going to Port aux Basques to hold one of those public meetings,offered me a lift and I was glad to take advantage of it. !!R. PEC~FORD: Not some of your colleagues, they are just going for the weekends. ~1R. :::lEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like for the minister to tell the House now who has been carried on the government aircraft on political business apart from the two gentleman who were taken out to Grand Falls last night under the auspices of the minister using the government aircraft for official business? Who are they? Put it on the table. Tell us who they were. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. :-!R. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the hon. gentleman is trying to get at here. It just so happened that I was on government business yesterday evening - }1R. lTEARY: Very convenient. ~!g_.

PEC!<FORD: It was not convenient. There is no such thing as it being convenient. If the hon. meober for LaPoile (~r. Neary) wants to start making charges like that 1 I had the government aircraft hired to go to Gander to speak to the Rural Development Council after the House closed at 6:00P.M. and in so doing, I was asked by two bon. gentlemen if they could accompany me because they wanted to go to Gander. , . • (

April 20, 1978 Tape 1250 EC - 2 MR. PECKFORD: I did not know they were going on a political meeting, and there was no convenience to it. I asked ov~r a week ago - MR. NEARY: It is a scandal! HR. PECKFORD: - to go to the Rural Development Council on Thursday and because of my speaking in the House yesterday and my estimates today I was not able to go today so I went last night,and I see nothing wrong with that practice. ~fR. NEARY: MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary, Sir. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, ~he han. the member for LaPoile and then a supplementary, the han. the member for Lewisporte. ~fR. NEARY: In view of the fact, Sir, that the government aircraft and we have example after example of how it is being abused and misuse~ 1 would the minister responsible for that aircraft table the logs of all the flights and all the people who have been carried on that aircraft from February of last year up to February of this year? Will the minister table that information in the House? MR. PECKFORD: I am not the minister responsible for air services and if I am not mistaken - HR.

NEARY: Well, I c1ill ask the Government House Leader. l!R. PECKFORD: the han. minister concerned is not in the House right now. HR. NEARY: Will the Government House Leader undertake to get that information for the P.ouse? MR. PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order.

April 20, 1978 Tape 1250 EC - 3 MR. PECKFORD: I was trying to answer questions just recently, like ten seconds ago, and in the response to the question I was being interrupted by the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) who was up on his feet again for another question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order, Sir. My question was not to the Minister of Mines and Energy, it was to the Government House Leader, the Acting Premier, who holds down two portfolios, number two and number three.

Would the minister undertake to get the logs of all the times that that aircraft has gone aloft since February of last year to February of this year, the number of passengers carried, the purpose of their trip and why the trips were being made and the names of the passengers? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am not sure what the point of order is. ~R. PECKFORD: "The point of order is, Mr.Speaker, as I understand it, the hen. the member for LaPoile asked a question. It was not directed to any specific minister. ~R. F. ROWE: The minister was saucy about it. MR.

FECKFORD: Secause I had been the minister who was answering the questions up to that point in time, I rose to my feet to answer that subsequent question, in the midst of which the hon. the member for LaPoile got up and directed the question to the Government House Leader. That is the point of order. MR . SPEAKER: I think the point is that the han. the Minister of ~ines and Energy regarded the first question as directed to him and he, in fact, wished to answer and was not given the opportunity to date to so do. So obviously the han. gentleman does have the right to answer the question.

April 20, 1978 Tape 1250 EC - 4 HR. NEARY: No, my question is not for the minister, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I think he is speaking of a previous question. HR. NEARY: A previous question? Well, apparently the han. gentleman is not going to answer so my question is for the Government Hcuse Leader, the Deputy Premier, Minister of Finance and Minister of Justice, and especially Justice.

Would the hon. gentleman undertake to get the logs of the number of times that aircraft has gone aloft since February of last year up to February of this year, the number of passengers carried, the number of trips ~ade, the purpose of the trips, the names of the passengers and, as I say, the reason for the use of the aircraft? !!R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HI CK~1AN: To that question, Mr. Speaker, I would refer it to the min·ister to whom it relates. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated I would recognize, on a supplementary, the hon. the member for Lewisporte. HR.

HHITE: I will not have a supplementary on this, Mr. Speaker, because the supplementary I was going to ask was the supplementary asked by the hon. gentleman from LaPoile with respect to the tabling of the logs. My question, ~r. Speaker, is for the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing and it relates to the controversy in St.

John's surrounding the parking garage and the fact that most menbers of City Council are quite upset about it, the contractors involved in the constructions are upset about it and there is general concensus that the City's reputation is going to be seriously damaged unless a commission of inquiry is appointed to look into the costs of the parking , . . .. . j ..

April 20, 197 8 Tape 1250 EC - 5 MR. 1-JHITE: garage. And I wonder if the minister could tell us whether or not he has had representation from the City with respect to this and whether he is considering the appointment of such an inquiry?

April 20,1978 MR. SPEAKER: :!'I.R. DINN: Tape No. 1251 AH-1 Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Speaker, I received several weeks ago a request from the city of St. John's to ask if government would set up a public enquiry with respect to the parking garage. Subsequent to that I received some further information from one of the counsellors, About a l·reek or so after that I received some more information from one of the counsellors with oespect to a report that was done by a Canadian consulting fi~m with respect to buildings.

Now I was prepared to answer the first request by the city and I submitted it to my hen. colleague,the Minister of Justice,who got back to me,and,as I said, subsequent to that I received some further information 1 I may receive some ~ore tomorrow. I am going to be communicating with the city today indicating to them that there are two ways to go; number one,the public enquiry route which involves expenditures by the provincial government, the provincial government would pay for that public enquiry;or the other route which would be a · commission set up under the city of St. John's Act,under~I believe

Section 320, I would of course recommend that because in

Section 321 of that act the city would pay for the enquiry. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WHITE: A supplementary Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, so the minister is saying to us- I just want him to confirm this-that there will be an enquiry either, a provincial enquiry or a city enquiry into this particular matter. He is telling us there will be an enquiry. HR. SPEAKER: The hnn. minister. MR.. DINN: Mr. Speaker, what I am doing is communicating with the city asking them for further information as to which route they would like to take. I would prefer that t:!ey would take the second one that I mentioned to the hon. member. That route would indicate

April 20,1978 Tape No. 1251 AH-2 MR. DL.'rn: that the city of St. John's would pay for the commission and that is what I am going to indicate to the city in a communication today. li..R. WHITE : A supplementary. NR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. NR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell us if the - obviously if the city agrees to set up its own enquiry then there is no need for a provincial enquiry. But can the minister tell us, to clear up this matter, whether or not there will be a provincial enquiry if the city does not opt for the suggestion that he is going to make to them? HR.

SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. DINN: I will be communicating with the city today and when that is done the city will get back to me, Hr. Speaker, and under

Section 320 they will indicate that they want a commission of enquiry, at which point I will go to government and ask them for permission for the city to hold that commission of enquiry. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Stephenville followed by the member for Conception Bay South. MR. ~lcNEIL: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Industrial Development. Several weeks ago the minister indicated that a one-man grievance committee would be set up to re-examine the severance pay for Linerboard workers. Could the minister indicate when this committee will be set up and who will chair the committee? HR.

SPEAKER: Ron. Minister of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: That matter would probably have been settled a couple of weeks ago, rh ere were some complications, It is under review right now and I expect to have a final decision on it in the next couple of ciays. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated I will recognize the han. member for Conception Bay South next. ~IR.. NOLA.."l: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of I I i ·'

April 20,1978 Tape No. 1251 AH-3 HR. NOLAN: Municipal Affairs and Housing. In view of the fact that the ~linister of Health indicated yest~rday~as he did the day before,that minister§: of the Crown did not interfer with the operations of Crown corporations,how does he account for the account in this morning's Daily News that }!]:. O'Leary, Chairman of the St. John's Housing Corporation,could not go to a meeting or hold a l!lceting or call a meeting without permission of the minister? This is stated on the front page of today 1 s Daily News. True or false2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, there are many things in the Daily News some of which are true and some of which are untrue. In that same

article headlined "The Government Stops Housing Developments"- NR. NOLAL~: Correct. - untrue. HR. NOLAN: That is not what you said on CBC yesterday morning. HR. Dlml: Government stops no ;lousing developments. Witi1 respect to the Cowan Heights development what we have here is a situation whereby, and I am a memoer of the Board of Directors of the St. John's Housing Corporation, and what we have here is a situation whereby we have a pre-feasibility study on a twenty-six nillion dollar proposal to develop Cowan Heights.

That pre-feasibility study in my opinion does not give us enough information to go forward with that development 1 so we are waiting !or the final feasibility study which will indicate whether this >' . ,- I - ~

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1252 NM- 1 MR. DINN: development is good or is bad or is financially feasible. When we get that study a decision will be made. As far as directing the Chairman of the Housing Corporation not to hold a meeting, certainly I have not done that. I would expect that the Chairman of the Housing Corporation would not want to hold a meeting simply because he does not have that final report. When that final report is in, which is due,I understand,the end of this month, then a decision of the board will be made. And that is the. way it is done. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker . l1R.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NOLAN: I wonder if I could get back, Again I appreciate the information given by the minister, but from the front page of this morning's Daily News, and I am sure the minister is familiar with the article, "A city official," it says, "did get in touch with Mr. O'Leary by phone Wednesday afternoon and was told no meeting could take place unless it was approved by the minister." Now what I am asking, Mr. Speaker, is,is this the fact? Do all meetings of the board have to be approved by the minister? Has ~cr. O'Leary deceived the reporter? Is the reporter inaccurate?

I mean,these are the facts we have to have. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the facts, there was no direction given to the Chairman of the St. John's Housing Corporation with respe<!t to not holding a meeting with the city. But the Chairman of the Housing Corporation, wisely I would think, would not hold a meeting with the St. John's Housing Corporation, simply because he cannot discuss the Cowan Heights development as he does not have a final report which would indicate the feasibility or otherwise of the development. So he is saying that he would not like to do that without going to the minister.

That seems to me to be a very congenial, a very good atmosphere between the minister and the Chairman of the St. John's Housing Corporation. .I

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1252 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. l!R. IV.N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, now that the Premier has graced us with his august presence, I would like to revert back to a line of questioning which was abandoned earlier because we could not get any answers from the ministers who were then present. In the Premier's absence it came out, the scandalous information came out that two members of the Rouse on the government side used the government aircraft for political purposes, flying from here to Grand Falls. AN HON. :1IDffiER: Gander. HR.. W. N • ROWE : Gander? Well, yes. From here to Gander to take

part in a political event in Grand Falls. Now I would like to direct to the Premier a question which my colleague asked of the Rouse Leader, namely,is the Premier prepared to have tabled in this House the logs of the aircraft, Mr. Speaker, and the helicopters containing of course the purpose of the visit, who was on board the aircraft at the time, and all pertinent information regarding the use of these public aircraft in the last,say,twelve month period, dating back from today's date? Is the Premier prepared to do that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that any time members of the government, or members of the Opposition, or members of any of these august groups, for want of a better expression, travel in this Province, they are both being political and on business. HR. NEARY: No. PRE:l!ER MOORES; If it is possible for the member for LaPoile (Nr. ::leary) to travel on the government aircraft and be non-political, Sir, I would suggest we keep him on the government aircraft all the time. ~!R. NEARY: Do not try to brush it off now and be smart. - I ~ I ' ~ I I

April ZO, 1978 PP.EMIER MOORES: MR. NEARY: PREMIER MOORES : Tape No. 1Z5Z NH - 3 I am not brushing it off on anybody. It is a scandal. It is another The introductory remarks to the question itself, I would suggest that there are very few members on the opposite side who have not been on aircraft of one form or another. MR. HORGAN: On over the weekend. PREMIER MOORES : Certainly we have made it available on a number of occasions just for the member for the Straits of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) when he was Opposition Leader.

I assume it was political business because I cannot think of why the Leader of the Opposition would be going to his district if it was not political reasons. If a minister is going somewhere to speak at an angagemen.t which he has been asked to speak a.t, and if any member of this House wants to travel on that aircraft during that pa=ticular time,they are welcome to do it - HR. NEARY: PREMIER !-JDORES : the case, Sir. HR. H.N. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. W.N. ROWE: Wrong. as are other people,and that happens to be A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition.

The Premier, Sir, has not answered the question. I asked if he would table the logs and if there is nothing to hide then certainly he would agree to do so. And not having agreed to do so there must be something to hide. That is the only deduction, the only conclusion anybody can come to on this matter.

Now, Sir, I would like to ask the Premier this: Since apparently members of Che government, backbenchers on the government side of the House~are pet'l!'.itted by the Premier's own words to use the government aircraft for political purposes to accompany ninisters who may be going scmewhere on business, to get a lift from here to some part of the Province to attend political functions, will th~ Premier mention whether he is prepared to notify all me.;nbers of the liouse, on both sides of the house,

April 20, 1978 Tape 1253 PK - 1 Mr. W. Rowe: on such times that aircraft are going to be leaving St. John's to go to different parts of the Province, so everybody can get in on this bonanza, this political bonanza, not only that side of the House, Sir, but this side of the House as well· HR. HORGAJ'T: Pe are doing that now. HR. NEARY: Th~y are not doing it. They are not doing it, do not be funny for political purposes. Do not be so foolish! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker,without all of this excitement of taking trips the fact is, Sir, that obviously there cannot be an advanced

schedule of the aircraft, but I will say here and now any member of this House, on the Opposition side or any other side, if the aircraft is going to a location, whether it be for an ambulance case, whether it be taking a minister to a certain location, whether it be taking anyone else to a location, if any of the members on the other side of the House want to contact, or this side, Air Services to see if a plane is going· in that direction at that time they are welcome to use it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. W. ROWE: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. HR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the Leader of the Opposition. HR. W. ROWE: The Premier will not answer the question as to whether he will table the logs. I as~ume he will not table the logs generally, for the last twelve month period. Will the Premier then indicate whether he will table the logs regarding aircraft, which I saw him, and many of his colleagues using during the Twillingate by- election, the last part of the month of November or early December, aircraft flying, helicopters flying back and forth between St. John's or Gander and Twillingate district on a continuous basis, Sir.

Now perhaps they were paid for by the P.C. Party. Perhaps they were paid for by the governmenc. I do not know. And many people in that area think, and probably rightly so, that public money was used to transport ministers left, right and centre,back and forth, during

April 20, 1978 Tape 1253 PK - 2 MR. W. ROWF: that very hectic political process. ,. Now will the Premier table the log for the aircraft? If he will not do it for a twelve month reriod, will he do it for the months of November and December of last year so that we can clear the air, to see in fact whether aircraft were used for purely political purposes or not? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

P~ER MOORES: The only thing I can say, Sir, is that any aircraft that is being used by us for election purposes has been paid for by the party, to the best of my knowledge, as I assume the Leader of the Opposition's expenses in Twillingate were paid for by his party. I do not imagine it came out of the Opposition Office vote. Al.\1 HON. MEMBER: No. PREMIER MOORES : I assume it did not. I would certainly hope it did not , Sir. MR. NEARY: Do not be so low! PREMIER MOORES: I mean, but we really do not know. MR. NEARY: Do not be so low! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER MOORES : May he wants to table how the Opposition vote is spent. MR. NEARY: Do not be so foolish! PREMIER MOORES: If he tables the Opposition vote to show that it is not there, I am sure he will feel better about it. But the fact is, Sir, that anything that is used for political purposes is paid for by political parties. MR. VJ. ROWE: One final supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: The Premier has tried to strike e bargain, Sir, and the bargain,I think,is a fair one.

I will table the audited statements of the Opposition Office,going back from the time the Opposition Office

April 20, 1978 Tape 1253 PK - 3 Mr. W. Rowe: started,on the table of this House, if he will agree - I will do it anyway for that matter in order to draw something out of the government, something which is very difficult to get, by way of information, if he will agree to table the logs of the aircraft for the last twelve months, and the purposes for which they were used, and the passengers who were on aboard the aircraft. I will do that, Sir, with a heart and a half. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr.

Speaker, unlike the Leader of the Opposition I am prepar~d to take his word for it, and I suggest he takes mine. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. W. ROWE: What a joke! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile, followed by the hon.members for Trinity-Bay de Verde, Terra Nova, and Bellevue. MR. NEARY: Obviously , Sir, there was taxpayers money involved in paying the salaries of these people who flew the aircraft, the attendants and so forth.

My question to the Premier now is, maybe it is not directly connected with this, but in connection with salaries generally, would the Premier indicate if the government now favours paying straight across the board increases in salaries rather than percentage increases? Because that has the tendency to make the gap wider, the rich getting richer, and the poor getting poorer. PREMIER MOORES: What did you say? MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? PREMIER MOORES: What is the question? MR.

NEARY: Would the Premier indicate in connection with salaries, and there are salaries involved in this thing we are talking about; paying the captains, and the aircraft and so on. What I want to find out, it may be indirectly involved - would the Premier indicate on behalf of the government whether for the next few .. . r I I . I · I 'f.

--~ April 20, 1978 Tape 1253 PK - 4 Mr . eary: years they would favour paying straight across the board inc-reases rather than percentage increa ·s.es? Because the rich are gett .ing richer and the poor are getting poorer. lf vou give a 10 per cem: increase to Bob Cole, f ;::,r instance, he will . ,_ -'t, )

I) get ~0'(\ increase a yea-r; if you give it to a man making $10, 000 a 10 !>er cent increase, he only gets $1,000 a year. \That I am asking is, do·es the Premie-r favour straight across the board increases as opposed to percentage i~creases ? >. ' ,- . I I ·I I I _f . \: i'· ::· •: ; i. ~ j.

April 20, 1978 Tape ~o. 1254 JH - 1 HR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that as a matter of negofiation between the various vested interests and the people they negotiate with. The collective bargaining system is there for that. What the hon. member says in a theoretical sense I suppose is accurate. But then again, Sir, I would suggest that there will always be wage differences but in the context that he mentions it I do not think it is something that you can answer in Question Peri~d. I think it is worthy of a debate. I think sometime it should be discussed - HR.

NEARY: \-lell I am going to put it on the Late Show, so do not worry about it. PREHIER MOORES: - when we talk about the sort of society we want to live in and we want to talk about the values that people receive,I mean,once again you could take the same thing and say I suppose that the various classes which are de•ignated as class~s in various sectors of the Civil Service or in other modes of vocation. the fact is that fheoretically they should all be ·the same. But, Sir, that does not mean to say that all people put in the same amount of work.

It does not mean that all people deserve the same amount of pay as the hen. member for LaPoile, Sir, should be well aware. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde I have indicated. MR. F.W. ROWE: :·!r. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Premier, Sir, in connection with the Action Group and the chairman of the Action Group who, Sir, is a very fine gentleman I might add. Sir, could the Premier indicate to the House what the length of the term of office is for the chairman of the Action Group and if it is in fact determined at this point in the game? Ml!.. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier.

PREHIER MOORES: I would hope, Mr. Speaker, it is indefinite. The situation is as far as the Action Group is concerned we see it on this side of the House as being something that is there for a long time and I · I

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1254 JM- 2 PRIDUER MOORES : I hope it is. much as people want to attack it: Because while this thing can be attacked as the fact is, Sir, that anything that will curtail or cut down on red tape in getting through to government bureaucracy,and there is lots of it, the fact is, Sir, that that group has had 6,000 phone calls up until the end of - AN HON. MEMBER: I made 3,000 . PREMIER MOORES : You made 3,000 of them? MR. F. W. ROWE: Hr. Speaker, that was not the question I asked.

PREMIER MOORES : I can understand, Sir, with a certain ability to speak and with a mouth that is totally active why he could possibly do that. But the fact is, Sir, that there we=e 6,000 phone calls which were followed up. There are 2,572 active files. The Fisheries Loan Board, Sir, have up until the end of ~~r~h had 400 applications this year as opposed to 140 last year. The Rural Development loans and ~pplications have doubled and that can be traced to the Action Group. HR. F.W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, he is abusing the Question Period. I asked a simple question and the P~emier is abusing the Question Period.

PREMIER MOORES : The fact is, Sir, that eighty-five per cent of the people that phoned that group have never approached government before because they did not know how to go about it. So, Sir, when it comes back to the specific question of the length of term of contract for the director of that group I would hope, Sir, it is for a substantial time. MR. F.W. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: l!R. F. W: ROI.ffi: A supple~entary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Mr.

Speaker, has there been any contractual agreement entered into between the government and the chairman of the Action Group, whichever capacity he may hold,with respect to employment? In case, Sir, I run out of time here,could the Premier also indicate were there any pension benefits or health benefits or insurance benefits associated with that particular contractual agreement if one exists ,and lvill the ·.•

April 20, 1978 Tape No . 1254 MR. E.W. ROWE: Premier be prepa r ed to table such contracts? MR. SPEAKER:. The hon. Pr emier. PRENIER ·MOORES: Yes, :ir. Speaker, there is a .contract and I will certainly get the informacion for the hon . gen t leman and make it ava.ilable in this House by all means. I know the issues he particularily ref~ r s to are t~e same as any other deputy minister in that pension righcs have been transferred from his previous employment to his present employment under the p-resent terms that the other depu t y ministers have .

The te-ems, Sir, are under the same heading as depu t y uinister' s status will allow for any other per son. The details of the contract I will only too gladly make .m- 3 available to the B:ouse as we have done with any other person in that same position, Sir. MR . F.H . ROWE: t1R. SPEAKER: One final suppl ementary , Mr. Speaker. The thirty minutes have expired .

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1255 JM- 1 ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. ~IRMAN: Order please! 1901-01 The hon. member for Port de Grave. ~fR. E. DAWE : Mr. Chairman, to continue with my remarks that I did not conclude last Thursday,! wish to take the short time I have left to bring to the minister some of the needs of the district. This department is the most important department of government that my district will have to deal with because eighty per cent of the population is under some form of local government.

I just want to go over some of the requests that are in to the department now so that the minister could be reminded of some of the needs that we are anticipating this year. I will refer again to the minister the need for,particularily,water and sewerage in the Riverhead part of Brigus. A design has been underway and hopefully this will be completed shortly and naturally then the request will be made to the department.

At Bay Roberts itself, as I said "the last evening, $2,100,000 is required for the extension of the water and sewerage at Coley's Point and there is a further need of shared cost paving,sixty-forty 1 for the town of Bay Roberts for a total of $343,000. As I pointed out to the hon. minister,last year we received in grants and in subsidies a total of $747,000 and this was mostly towards the water and sewerage ir.. Bay Roberts,and then ''e received further capital Horks projects of $1,285,000 ,mostly for Bay Roberts and Brigus.

But I would say to the minister that another division of his department that I think needs wore ~oney that has been allocated and that is the Water Services Division. At present I have requests in to your department, Sir, a total of six or seven artisan wells. We have committees formed. They have been formed at ~!akinsons, Port de Grave, Brigus and just outside Brigus, Brigus Goulds and I have met with them during this last few months and I have made them fully aware that if possible a new policy may come out from the ...

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1255 JM - 2 MR . E. DA\·IE: department this year and it ·is my unders ,tanding this will be on a seventy-five/twenty-five basis. We estimate the cost of these projects between $60,000 to $90,000, I can assure the hon. minister if t h ese are approved that these committees are quite prepared to raise their twenty-five per cent. I am hopeful that at least this amount of money could be found this s'Qllllller for these prograllimes.

I wo-uld like to also refer to another vote within the miniS-ter's department and I feel that it is a vote that is not very well known by the members of this House. I happen to become aware of it this last two mouths because I have had twO of my constituents taking

part in this programme and I refer to th~ Rural _Remote Housing Programme. I think this will be one of the 1ll0st popular programmes of this department of go'irermn.ent and none of the other members realize what this would mean. It mea~ that in any community in Newfoundland today where there is a population of less than 5,000 there is a pro.granune where the Federal and Provincial Govern111ents share in the cost of a person's mortgage.

April 20,1978 Tape No. 1256 AH-1 MR. DINN: That is to say, if a person is working and twenty-five per cent of his income is not sufficient to ?ay this mortgage,the federal government through this Rural Remote _Housing Programme will take over the balance.

There is also provision made through the Department of Social Services whereby people who are on long-term assistance, instead of the department purchasing houses for them they can go to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and take out a regular mortgage,and when this mortgage is taken out,seventy-five per cent of the mcrtgage will come from the federal authorities or from the federal government and twenty-five from the provincial.

In this way a person who is on long-term assistance instead of renting or buying a second-hand or used house can move into a new house and over a period of twenty or twenty-five years it will be paid by both the federal and the provincial governments. This mortgage, the amount of mortgage involved is up to $28,000, The most the persons concerned would be involved with would be the providing of suitable land. As we all know,especially in the rural areas this is no problem because there is usually enough land in some part of their family to suffice. I think, tk.

Speaker, that this programme should receive more publicity than it is receiving. It is my understanding that there are only two or three offices in the Social Services division who are taking

part in this programme and I am glad to know that one of them is at Bay Roberts. I think that if this was made better known we would be flooded with requests. I would like to refer briefly to a plebiscite that 1 as you !cnow,was circulated at Shearstown. Could we have order please, Mr. Speaker? I would like to refer briefly to a plebiscite that was circulated at Shearstowu wherby eighty per cent of the populatiou there voted to form some form of council on their own. Now my position would be this, I think tbat the gover=ent or the department should use .. • f

April 20,1973 Tape No. 1256 AH-2 HR. DINN: its influence with the ~own council at Bay Roberts a~d have them extend their boundaries to include that part of Shearstown which is not within the boundries and Butlerville. Then naturally once this is done they will be looking for the extension of the present water and sewerage system to provide them with the necessary water and sewerage services.

It is suggested that where we have within the municipality of Bay Roberts four distinct communities,that possibly some consideration should be given to the setting up of a ward system - that is to say that at Shearstown and at Bay Roberts and at Coley'~ Point and at Country Road- and in that way we woulci be guaranteed some representation on the council. And I think, Mr. Speaker, that if this " were done it would reliPVP_ wh,.1:, I suppose you could say is a bit of annoyance to the people of Shearstown.

They feel that they huve been neglected by the council at Bay Roberts, but I think if this were done this would relieve the problem and it would be the best thing and the best course to take. Shearstown itself,in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, is not sufficient to go and absorb and be a council on their own, I think it would be disasterous,They have not got the taxing power and they would not have the income. I would like to refer again, Mr.

Speaker, as you know and as people are aware,there is a drive over at Bay ~oberts and down in that part of Conception Bay to have a stadium erected and from my understanding it is goirul: to mef't with ~'ide support. This will be supported ~· . f" .I

April 20, 1978 Tape 1257 IB-1 MR. DAivE: not only by the council at Bay Roberts but by the council at Spaniard's Bay,which is in the district of Harbour Grace. It will be .supported by the council at North River, supported by the council at Clarke's Beach, the council at South River and the council at Cupids and the council at Brigus. It is my understanding, Sir, ia your department once they collect the sum of $200,000 there is a grant from your department of $200,000. And I would not be surprised, Sir, that they would raise their $200,000 this present year.

So they will naturally be looking to your department for the $200,000 and then the further commitment from the Department of Recreation and Rehabilitation for the balance of the $300,000. So, these are the ongoing needs of the district at present. And I would like again to remind the minister that with regards to this Rural Remote Housing Programme that more publicity should pe given to it. You woulc be surprised, Sir, if more publicity was given to this I am sure that the demand that you would have in your department, you would be surprised by.

Because I was in that department when we instigated a shell housing programme and that was very, very popular at that time. And I am convinced this would be a similiar programme once it So, those are my main remarks. ~lr. Chairman, I am not going to delay the House, but I would say that within the town of Bay Roberts today they are doing a business assessment property tax. I think it is the right step to be taking because that tax rate is very low at Bay Roberts and that this should be encouraged to include all the properties at Bay Roberts.

And I would give my support to this if the council in Bay Roberts could ~· r

April 20, 1978 Tape 125 7 IE-2 HR. DAHE: be encouraged to do a regular property assessment. This is the.only way I feel the town is going to progress. Their revenue is too small and this would add greatly to the town's income. I would like to thank,Mr. Chairman, before I sit down, I would like to go on the record to pay a tribute to the councillors in all these communities. They have been serving, some of them, ten and twelve years and longer. They serve, as you know, without any remuneration in any way.

And I think that the time is soon ripe to give some consideration to at least recognizing the services these people giwe. I do not know if it would come out of the general revenue of each community or a special grant or a special vote from the department. It would be generalized throughout the Province. But I think, Sir, the time is coming when at least some consideration should be given to, say, at least some form of thank you for the men for their services they have given. They are the backbone of Newfounland as far as public services are concerned today.

They are involved in every single, everyday problem in the community you can mention. I would like again to remind the Rouse that - they probably do not realize this - when the Federation of :ray or and ~unicipalities meet they represent some 450,000 people in this Province, more than SO per cent. ~ow no other group only t~e ~embers of this ~ouse represent a larger group in the Province. And I happened to be president of that association for two years and I had some idea of the work that is involved. I do say to the ministry that this should be made known as well, the contribution that these people are ,.

April 20, 1978 Tape 1257 IB-3 NR . DAHE: making and will continue to make in the years ahead, service freely given. to publicly In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I would like

April 20, 1978 Tape 1258 DW - 1 MR. E. DAWE: to go on record to thank your Deputy Minister, Mr. Withers,and your Director of Local Government, Mr. Corbett,for the most courteous reception they have given me and the delegations I have met with them this year.. I have known them down through the years,and other members of your department, Hr.

Browne and other people within the planning ~~d the engineering divisions, hnt- t-h'""'" two men in particular,! think,most of the councils had most contact with next to the minister and I would like to go record and use this occasion to publicly thank these two gentlemen for this co-operation they have given me and the members in my district. Thank you very much. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, Hear! MR. CHAIRMAN. (MR. YOUNG) : The hon. member for St. John's South. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I am grateful for an ~ opportunity to say a few words in this Committe_e = this heading.

I certainly agree with a remark that was already made in Committee that this is a most important department,most sensitive department. Probably it has more affect on the people of this Frovince individually then in any other departmentt except,perhaps, the Department of Finance. And this certainly applies to the urban areas.Hon. members will know that I represent one of the urban areas of the Province essentially, although not totally urban. There is a small rural

part in my constituency but mainly an urban area. And

whereas the rural areas certainly have Their impacts and requirements from this department in things like water and sewer· and so on and so forth, the urban areas also have tremendous needs that come under the responsibility of this department. I would just like to make a few remarks first in regard to the NIP and RRAP programs.There may be a little confusion in this area. I think the remark was made in Committee that these programs were not working very well,that funds that are available under these programs,these federal programs are not being well:utilized in the Province. Well, Mr.

Speaker, that is certainly not my experience.~ experience is that these are excellent programs and they are being excellently used when the right technique is emoloyed,

April 20, 1978 Tape 1258 DW - 2 DR. J. COLLlliS: and it might be just worthwhile very ,. briefly just to look at the technique. The first essential step is the designation of an area as being eligible for NIP and RRAP programs. Now the designation is a responsibility of the federal government) federal authorities 1essentially through CMHC. l"unds are not available unless the designation is made and,as I say~this is purely a federal responsibility. Now the next step after the designation is that there should be a response from the local citizenry. That is the absolutely essential next step.

Nothing can happen .unless there is a local response,because this program is set up in such a way that it is not put into effect, it is not forced on a community by either federal, provincial, or municipal authorities; the response has to come from the local citizens. I would suggest that if NIP funds that are being made available in this Province are not being used, it may well be that the local response is not there. If the designation is there, a federal move, and a local response is made, the programs can be implemented.

And I would suggest that this is an area where the }iliA in association with the local municipality has a very big part to play. I know in my constituency I am very happy and proud to have said that we did get a very satisfactory, large NIP program for our area of the City of St. John's,where there was tremendous need for such a program,by arranging that the citizen group be gotten together to make that next essential step. Now when that step is made the request is forward both

April 20, 1978 Tape 1259 DW- 1 DR. J. COLLINS: to federal authorities and provincial authorities and their agreement must be obtained. Now that agree­ ments is related to guidelines set down by the federal authorities, and the guidelines essentially concern the type of neighbourhood.

NIP and RRAP programs are not available for every source of neighbour­ hood•rhere h~ve ~o be certain characteristics of the neighbourhood before they can get ln on these funds~ut if those characteristics are there 7the agreement of federal and provincial authorities is almost automatiC.Ihere is a certain amount of time involved but there is really no hold up So again I do not see where there can have been underutilization of NIP &Tid RRAP funds if the right moves were made.

There could not any particular hold up on the provincial government's part because,firstly,they do not do the designation and,secondly 7 their agreement is almost automatic if the guidelines set down by the federal authorities are adhered to when the citizen group reques~ that the program be brought into effect. So I will just mention that, Mr. Chairman, in case there is confusion over this matter,and from the remarks made I suggest, Sir, there probably has been confusion. I would like to now just move on very briefly to regional government.

This is another matter which is of great concern to my constituents because,as hon. member will know, regional government is a very live issue in the whole area around St. John's and in the area of the Northeast Avalon part of the Province. The regional government that will be brought in here probably will be the model for the rest of the Province.\o7e will have an opportunity,! hope,in this s~ssion to discuss this in detail when a bill is brought in. So I will not go into it in any great detail now.I will just make a few points.

The first point is that there may have been some impression that this is not an area that the MHA' for the city area are interested in. Nothing could not be further from_ the truth. The city MHA: .,certainly on this side of the House, have been most actively engaged in considering the legislation-or the po~sible legislation that will come forward. I think the media may have erred

April 20, 1978 Tape 1259 DW - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: somewhat in thinking that most the activity _ in this year has been on the part of the city of St. John!s Municipal Council.

Well I do net know if the Municipal Council really have put as mpch into it as they might have, that is for them to judge, but I certainly know that the legislation that may come before this House has engaged the attention of the city MHA from this side of the House over many months,meetings have been scheduled on a regular basis and every possible aspect of the legislation~looking first to the bill that was initially introduced last year and later withdrawu,looking to that first and expanding upon it that this whole matter has engaged our atten­ tion over the last twelve months.And I think that any legislation that will be brought in will benefit greatly from the work that the city MHA have put into it.

I might say that we have also met with the Munieipal Council over this and I think that it is clear that some of the misgivings of city council really were matters of misunderstanding 1in particular the question of dual taxation and dual authority. Thi~ I think was quite clearly a matter of misunder­ standing and I believe that when~the new act comes in 1 this is our hope,it will be spelled out in no uncertain terms that there will not be double taxation or double authority in·· this whole matter.

The city was also concerned that any municipal .,. .o~ork· who would go from their authority under the regional government would be adequately protected,and this I am sure will be taken care of in the act. Another matter that I think that will concern all members will be how those in charge of the regional government will achieve their place,whether th~y will be appointed whether they will be elected or how they will get into a position of authority and responsibili;y, and this is a~matter that will be much discussed when the bill comes forward.

In my own case I would certainly hope that these will be 1 in the not to distant

April 20, 1978 Tape No.l260 JM - 1 DR. COLLINS: future, , elected officials. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to mention one problem to which I certainly do not have the solution,but I put it forward for the consideration of hon. members and perhaps for the hon. minister and officials in his department. One of the problems that most often comes to my attention, and I suggest that this may apply to most MHA's in urban areas,is the matter of housing for those people who are unemployed.

Now there are programmes available,through C}lliC and the AHOP programme, for instance,available to people who would have difficulty in financing houses, obtaining mortgages and so on,if they are employed. But these programmes are helpful in that regard. But if someone is unemployed these programmes are not available to him and I '.Jould hope that at some point in time,sometime, some programme, I know this is going to be a very difficult thing to do,but I would hope that some programme can be found to help these people.

They now of course can get assisted rental and so on and so forth but I would suggest that if some programme could be evolved that would allow the unemployed,and particuiarily the young unemployed and the unemployed who can look forward in the not too distant future to gainful employment, if some programme can be found to allow these people to get into home ownership and not just merely get into assisted rental accoiiDIIOdation, this '-'Ould be a tremendous step forward. It would give these people I think tremendous incentive.

I think it IJOuld certainly increase the quality of the housing that is available to them because with the best will in the world the amount of rental housing that is available to the unemployed through the assisted programmes is quite often of a some1~hat low type and low quality. If they could be under some sort of programme - and as I mentioned before I am not certain what that programme should be because one certainly does not want to get into a programme that would be abused, have a totally giveaway type of atmosphere to it.

That is not what anyone wants as it would only be self-defeating - But if some programme can

April 20, 1978 Tape NO. 1260 JH - 2 DR. COLLL"S: be found whereby these young people - who are having problems because of economic circumstances of achieving gainful employment,at this stage they often have young children and they are now living unfortunately in types of accommodation, rented accommodation which is most undesirable from many points of view,including the health point of view - if some programme can be devised for these people I think it would be a tremendous step forward. MR. CHAIRHAN : The hen. member for Fogo. Before you do.the six hours will expire at 3:30 P .H. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Mr.

Chairman, now that the time is getting very short I do not think it would be fair for me to take the full twenty minutes and not permit the minister time to answer some of the questions which have been raised. So I will try to be specific and ask the minister three or four specific questions relating to Fogo district. The minister must realize by now one of the most serious problems we have, and it applies to Fogo district as it does to a gre~t many districts in the province,and that is the source of a good drinking water supply.

The question I would pose to the minister, has the number of committee members been increased from five to fifteen in each community? Is there any intention of the, minister to levy a charge to the householder? I have heard rumours that there may be a charge from $120.00 to $150.00 per household in order to get a source of water brought to their homes or even through artisan wells. That is the questioljl, Hr. Chairman. The other question I would like for the minister to comment on is that one of the completion of the water system at ~usgrave Harbour.

The minister is fully aware that five years ago an attempt was made and half of the comrnunity of Musgrave Harbour had the installation of water and sewer,and now we have a situation

April 20, 1978 Tape 1261 IB-1 _CAPT. HINSOR: there were one half of the town enjoy the facilities of .. .. r water and sewer and the other half do not. Now that is like, you know, one half of the town is living in :- the 20th century and the other is living way back in the 19th and 18th and 17th century, etc. etc. So, could the minister perhaps-if he does not want to make it known now I would appreciate discussing the matter further with him in private. Then there is the matter of grants to the councils.

As the minister is aware, of course, ~ighways have paved many roads through the communities and of course with the paving of the roads I understand that the responsibility of snow clearing and maintenance now lies within the jurisdiction of the municipality. If that is so 1 will the grants to municipalities be increased in order that those communities can purchase equipment and provide the snow clearing, etc. that is required of them once the road is paved through that .., community:' Of course, Mr. Chairman,there is the situation we have on Fogo Island.

We have ten communities on Fogo Island and it might be worthy of note, Mr. Chairman, that the ~inister of Fisheries (Mr. W. Carter) took time out yesterday in his speech at the Rotary Club to pinpoint the Island of Fogo which he said,and which I know,has beco~e a very prosperous, industrial and self-supporting community, yet there is not one single water supply on the Island. So those are questions, Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps the minister might care to comment on. And I would appreciate that rather than taking the whole twenty minutes. ~m . CHAIR}!AN: The han. member for LaPoile.

MR. :'lEARY: I just merely want to put a question or two to the minister, I do not want to hold up the House. I

April 20, 1978 Tape 1261 IB-2 !-!R. NEARY: want to find out, in connection with the regional water supply. I understand that there are already eleven employees in the Department of Municipal Affairs looking after the regional water supply. Now that is going to be turned over to the Metropolitan Board very shortly. Will these eleven employees who are part of NAPE, who are, you know, covered under the NAPE agreement, will they go over to the Metropolitan Board with all the fringe benefits and so forth?

And the other part of that question then , is that fair, you know, to ask the Metropolitan Board to take over the regional water supply and to take over employees that have been appointed by the minister's depar"ment? I would like to get the minister's answer to that. And the other question has to do with Port aux Basques, with the stadium.

As the han. gentleman knows, for the last six years the town council out in Channel-Port aux Basques has been trying to get the minister to live up to an oral commitment that was made by the former administration , by Premier Smallwood when he was Premier of this Province, a commitment that was made to every other stadium in the Province. We s~e now Mount Pearl getting their stadium benefits. The one over on Bell Island was assist~d to the tune of $500,000 that went mostly out to P.C. Party supporters on the Island for renovating that stadium over th~re,and I will deal with that at a later date.

And that one too, by the way,,vas the subject, I believe, of an RCliP enquiry recently. I do not know if it is still ongoing or not but it was certainly asked for by the town council. But in Port aux Basques there was an obligation there, a commitment,and the commitment, by the way, was recognized by i1r. Harold Rowe when he was Deputy :linister of •.'

.\pril 20, 1978 Tape 1261 B-3 _1:R. ~~E ARY: that depa ttmenc ,who on ~ore than one occasion gave the town council of C an~ el - ?ort aux nas~ues a special g=ant in order for the government to pick up their share of the commitmen t. Th e governm ent has reneged on that. !he town council ha v e been in - I beg your pardon? AN !!ON . HEHBER: :10 way. ~!R . NEARY: The government reneged, Sir . The town council have been in o n a nu~ber of occasions to cry to get the ~att er straightened out.

The gove rn~ent withheld their per capita tax, the revenue grant, have withheld it c o pay off the loan, a commitment that was made by the Province and t hey h a ve been subject to all kinds of harcship and arbitrary decisions on the part of the minister v ' r

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1262 JH- 1 MR. l<EARY: and the government. }rr. Chairman, I am going to make this statement here and now that if the town council in Channel- Port aux Basques can hold out for one more year or a year and a half, whatever time the election is called, that committment that was made will be honoured. Now the minister undertook recently to rearrange the financing~and this is the question I want to put to the minister, to rearrange the financing to make it easier for the town of Channel -Port aux Basques to meet their obligation or what the minister thinks is their obligation to the government.

Now apparently that has fallen through. Now could the minister tell me and tell the House if any arrangements at all can be made to soften the blow,to ease the hardship that has been created as a result of the government reneging on this oral committment that was made by the former administration and by Premier Smallwood when he was head of the administration of this province? MR. CHAIIU!AN: The hon.member for Port au Port. I think the hon. members realize that there ar~only about twelve minutes left,but the han. member for Port au Port is recognized. HR. J. HODDER: I just want to make a few brief comments, Mr.

Chairman. There are many ministers who have visited the district of Port au Port since I have been elected. I believe the hon. the Minister of Finance and the tlinister of Education, the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development and the }!inister of Fisheries and I think they were treated with great courtesy and regard. However,! believe, }rr. Chairman, that I should tell the hon. Hinister of Municipal Affairs that I would be concerned for his safety if he were to walk at midnight through the towns of Campbells Creek, Abrahams Cove, Ship Cove, Piccadilly, Vlest Bay because, l1r.

Chairnan, that minister has in his hands the ability to improve the quality of life in those communities more than any other minister in government and has not done so. Mr. Chairman, two years ago, three years ago during the election, the former candidate who did not run, the candidate and a

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1262 JH- 2 }!R. J. HODDER: former leading PC, I believe a former defeated candidate in the PC Party,wandered through the district and behind them came the drilling machine. The third gentleman had acquired a drilling machine and they peppered the district of Port au Port with holes. However after the election was over not one of those wells have had the promised pumps, well houses, lines or anything else done. They still remain after three years holes in the ground. Now, Mr.

Chairman, one of the most serious problems, and I have said it every year, perhaps twice every year, one of the most serious problems in the district of Port au Port is water. The problem has become very intense at the moment because we have now found that we have very badly contaminated water through certain areas.

In the community of Piccadilly, I believe I presented a petition earlier, I had a call from a woman who has complained that her children were getting stomach cramps and were sick and she felt it was the ~~ater,.3o I contacted the Department of Health and they tested the water and indeed,and I read the letters in the aouse earlier this year,and indeed they confirmed that the water was bad enough that children could become sick, it was unfit for drinking. They told the families in that area to boil their water. Later the minister's department also did a survey and they came up with the same results, only more so.

I think the report was just a little more harsh than the Department of Health's report had been. Now, Mr. Chairman, this cannot continue to exist. I have written the minister and I am asking him now to please do something for those areas where they have contaminated water, to test the water to make sure that it is not only those ten or fifteen families at Piccadilly Head that have contaminated water,but to check the whole area because the geography, the typography is much the same throughout the whole area and I believe that the problem may be in other areas. But I would urge the minister to check this.

It is urgent. It is important. I had one of the letters that I received from the minister's department which said that they could not do anything at the present time but in the very near future they '~ould look or that when the spring came they .,

.. April 20, 1978 Tape ~o. 1262 JM- 3 MR. J. HODDER: would look at the problem again. I do hope, ·.· :lr. Chairman, that t!1a t problem is looked after. ~1r. Chairman, I could talk about some of the problems with water in the district- the problem at Cape St. George where $1 million has been spent and only a few families are hooked up,or

April 20, 1978 Tape 1263 Ill-1 UR. HODDER: the problem in Three Rock Cove where officials of the depart~ent lost the pump when they were supposed to repair it, _lost it down the well and then had to retrieve it after several months and then sent it away. I could talk about all those things,but all I want to say to the minister right now is look into the problems of contaminated water in the district of Port au Port becaus~ I do not want it on my shoulders, and I know the minister does not want it on his shoulders, that someone would become seriously sick. Y-R.

CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HR. DINN: Mr. Chairman, how much time? ~fR. CHAIRHAN: ~'Tine minutes. HR. DHTN: Nine minutes. Well, Mr. Chairman, obviously nine minutes is not going to give me an opportunity to reply to all hon. members opposite. !!aybe by leave. But first of all, ~r. Chairman, I have to deal with the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr. White) who in his speech in this House of Assembly talked about pork barrelling in the Department of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing as it relates to special grants specifically. ~ow, ~r.

Chairman, that was the first thing that happened when the hon. member got up. And I asked in my second time in speaking in this House-or the first time.rather- I asked the hon. member to get to the issues which we should be discussing here with respect to policy, with respect to items in different heads of the Department and so on. The hon. member in his second turn got up and talked about pork barrelling. By that he meant that the monies used in special grants were thrown out and given out to people or districts and members on this side of the House.

April 20, 1978 Tape 1263 IB-2 :-iR. DINN: Well, ~r. Chairman, the first thing that I have to do obviously is to lay upon the table of the House the facts qecause this cannot continue to go on in this House where han. members opposite get up and make scurrilous charges. So, Mr. Chairman, I will lay upon the Table of the House,after I read some of the things on this document in my hand, proof that there is no such charge can be laid against the Department of Municipal Affairs,which has been made, against government 1 which has been made,and against the present minister. Nor, Mr.

Chairman, and I will deal with this with respect to what has happened in the past years, can the charge be made with respect to water and sewer. Mr. Chairman, we spend approximately, I think if we average it out over the past five to seven years, we spend approximately $20 million per year on water and sewer systems in this Provi?ce. Now if han. members opposite can do a little mathematics, $20 million times about seven years is $140 million.

That, if han. members will look in the estimates,they will find that that is approximately what the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporetion has to pay, that is the bill and that is what we are paying off year by year and this year it will be something like $12.5 million. Well last year, Mr. Chairman, that amount was $9,952,286 or approximately $10 million. That is the debt that the Province is paying year by year~and it will go up next year as a result of water and sewer systems that we will put in this year.

But that is what we are paying year by year as the time goes on and that debt is increasing and we are paying an increasing amount. But, '!r. Chairman, over the past approximately seven years $140 million,approximately,and if we go through I I

April 20 , 1978 Tape t263 IB-3 :·!R. DHIN: the different few districts, just pick a few at random, I will . pick a few from this sid e of the House and I will pick a few from your side of the Rouse, from the hon. membe rs opposite. We will go t hrough some of the districts. The district of Bay of Islands, water and sewer subsidies la~t yea r, 1977-1978, $136,532.79. And we can go through this, ~fr . Chairman, district by district. ! have them here on a piece of paper and they are as accurate as the y can be ~ade. They we~e done based on what we paid. And Mr. Chair~an, we can go through different districts.

The dist r ict of Hunber Valley , $212,000, Mr. Chai rman. The district of Grand Bank, $180,000 approximately, :rr. Chairman. The district of Cander, $201,000, Mr. Chairman . And the point I am caking here is that forget about what happened just in one year . Think about what happened )' f .I I ·.I I I. I ., .I I I

April 20, 19 78 Tape No.l264 RT-1 MR. DINN: in the past seven years, say, or approx- imately seven years. Now some of these were done ~revious to that and ,. i r the debt was carried over. So it goes back to, we will say, the previous administration. :- So, Hr. Chairman, we will take a few on the other side of the House. llaie Verte-\·ihite Bay $559,617.21, :;>ark-barrelling that is! That is pork-barrelling in this Department of l-'unicipal Affairs and Housiu.g, a statement •,;hich I resent. !1r. Chairman, Bellevue $152,127.18.

Burgeo-Bay d'Zspoir S511,~00, and t~e can go on,and on, and on, and I ~;auld t!link that if this continues, tvhat is going to happen is t:1at increasing pressure is going to be put upon me as !1inis ter of Municipal Affairs and Housing to stop this practice of trying to equalize, trying to provide water and sewer systems on the basis of need. :<ow, l'r. Chairman, I am going to table this but before I do, I am going to give the final figures and I am going to table it because I tvant to quell unfounded charges made by the :~on. members opposite. He spent last year, as I said, $9,952,000.

Hith respect to members on this side of the House t~e spent 54,855,093.57. '-Ti th respect to han. mell'bers opposite .-..re spent $4,366,843.62, and if t.re add to that the han. member for Port de Grave we can add another $732,349.54, •,;hich will indicate that there is over $5.5 million in t~:e Opposition side, and on this side of the House toTe are spending S4.e million. No..,.r, '1r. Chairman, in a~ effort, and more members - A:'! HON. ME~'B ER: He charged pork-barrelling. A~l HON. :~""EER: ~'r. Chairman - !~.

DIW: more members on this side of the House, as hon. members opposite •,rould knm.r, obviously they can cot.mt up to thirty and they can obviously count with respect to <That is on t!leir side of the Rouse. SOl·!E HON. YElffiER'i: Hear, hear!

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1264 RT-2 ~.fR .• DINN: Now, Mr. Chairman, I ~-rould like to deal for >' a moment, if I may, with Special Grants and it is unfortunate that I { cannot deal ~~ith the problems expressed by the hon. member for Port de Grave (Mr. Dawe) and, hopefully, I will get an opportunity to speak to the hon. gentleman,as I have in the past,and solve some of his problems. Also, with respect to the han. member for Fogo (Captain Winsor) because he has particular problems that I would like to discuss with him, have in the past, will in the future, and never close my door to any hen. member. SO~ RON.

ME}ffiERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: With respect to Special Grants, and I think it is very important, because everybody knows, the hen. members opposite kno~Y, that Special Grants are at the complete discretion - now down in the Department we set up a finance committee hut the grants are at b~e complete discretion of the minister. I can say, 'yea', or I can say, 'nay'. And, ~!r. Chairman, I would like to go through that because I do not want to give the impression to the people of this Province, and through you, ~!r. Chairman, I ~•ould like to notffy the people of the Province of hasically what is happening.

Hith respect to Special Grants we go down and of a total of $790,162.80 ~•e spent in districts of hon. rnet:'bers opposite, $473,992.98. AN HON. ME}!BER: More than that! ~'R. DINN: If we ~vere to add the Sl7 ,51)0 £or the hon. member for Port de Grave or for the people in his constituency, because 1-re are serving the people here in this House, and we cotrpare that with the Special Grants that are going to hon. members on this side of the Rouse we will see that for hon. members on this side of the Rouse we are spending $298,~h9 We are getting a ra1.r deal.

. ril 20, 19 78 Tape .1o . 1254 R!- 3 HR . DINN: . 'ou , .lr . Chairma n, S SO 7, 00 as compared ,. to $298 , 00 .

Now hon . meobe rs on this side of t he House «ill say , l ' ·~ e!l,yo u do not hav e members in rural dis tricts ' , and that is true, and that is 1~hy we will find t ha t ...,it.l-t t he finance committee ope ratin g as it is , and going through and scrutiniz .ing and making recommendations to me, that ! am •..tilling to take any hon . memb_e r he re in this !louse dotm to go through t he minutes o£ the finance COt!ll!littee 111.ceting and have a look at every recommendation t.l-tat was made and see ho•; many I have t-urned down , to see how many I have changed .

I have had calls from on. ·members opposite to say

April 20, 1978 , Tape 1265 r:!3- 1 !!R. DDJN: to add some evidence to - AN RON. NEMBER: Is that including St. John's and Corner Brook? l!R. DINN: That includes all the districts in this Province and if you want to get onto St. John's, St. John's North, nothing, St. John's Center, nothing,if you want to include St. John's. They do not get it because we are attempting to develop the rural areas of this Province because we think that is where the action is and that is where the action should be. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! _l!R. DI~N: ~r.

Chairman, I would like to place upon the table of the House the evidence that this government is as fair as any government has ever been in this Province, a lot fairer than what the hell went on before. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! On motion, Read XIX, Municipal Affairs and Housing, all items without amendment, carried. HR. HICK?!AN: Head XVI, Rural Development. SO~E HON. MEMB!RS : Hear, hear! l!R. CHAIR~-! AN: Head XVI, Rural Development . The hon. Minister of Rural Development. ~R. PECKFORD: Mr.

Chairman, it is with great pleasure that I present the estimates for the Department of Rural Development,one time called the Department of Community and Social Development whose main mandate at that time was to move people out of rural ~ewfoundland. This administration fought against that kind of theory and ~rought back a revitalized rural development polic y . Mr. Chairman, in beginning my remarks on these estimates and under this heading, I should like first of all to pay tribute to the former minister of the department, the I I .I

April 20, 1978 '!ape 1265 IB-2 ~R. PECKFORD: ~ember for Gran d Fall s (Mr. Lundrigan) who as one rural Newfoundlander understands and is extremely sensitive towards developmental policies as it r elates to rura l parts of this Provin ce . If there is one hon . gentleman in this House that I am sure all Newfoundlanders recognize as having a real feel and a real concern for his fellow Newfou~dlanders who live in the bays and i n lets arnund this Island and in Labrado r 1 it is the hon. member for Grand Falls C:!r. Lundrigan). I : hink even-the old saying, I guess, is appropriate, ~! r.

Chairman, "Y ou can take the c:an out of t he bay but you ca n no t take the bay out of the man . " And I think that the time that the bon. member for Grand Falls (Mr. L~ndrigan) when he was the mecber of parliament for Grander-Twillingate and so distinguished himself in the House of Commons, he did not even thenlwhen he went to the big city,forget his roo t s, forget his ties with t he rural parts of newfoundland and was a real worker for many rural parts of Gander-Twil l ingate during those days that he represented t hat federal riding.

So I want to, in sta rt ing my remarks, to pay tribute to him for the work that he has put into the Department of Ru ral Development and the new initiative that he has taken that I shall continue to carry out as it relates to that depart~ent. :\s mos t "' . .

April 20, 1978 TApe No. 1266 J}! - 1 MR. PECKFORD: hon. members know 1the Department of Rural Development is a relatively new department of ~vernment and that it has been growing "in leaps and bounds really over the last number of years and that only recently 1 in the last year or so,the Department of Rural Development was given the responsibility for developing policy really, developmental policy relating to Labrador through the Labrador Services Division and through enlarging the mandate that the Labrador Services "!'livision has. In other words, Hr.

Chairman, years ago the Labrador Services Division was simply an operational division, a maintenance division. It was a division which made sure that the depot stores in various communities in Labrador were operated, that there was food on the shelves 1 if you will,and did not go too much beyond trying to identify opportunities for growth, for development in Labrador.

In recent months, in the last year or so,government has recognized thatiif we are really going to impact upon Labrador the way we should,we are going to have to either enlarge the Labrador Services Division or to include some kind of policy formulation or otherwise do it somewhere else but it has to be done. Since there is this already existing division, whic~ up until hitherto for was simply sort of an operational one,already in existence it was easy to enlarge the scope and mandate of that division. We have done so now, Mr.

Chairman, to the extent that we have placed a gentleman, a very qualified man in the Labrador area, physically in Labrador,who has assistant deputy minister status and he is the main liasion now and the big link in the chain of the department as it relates to ongoing Labrador development. !:lis name is Hr. John McGrat:~ and we are very proud to have the gentleman on staff in Labrador permanently to bring all the loose ends together as it relates to the matters of the stores and so on but to formulate~and to help government formulate~new programmes and policies as it relates to Labrador.

In my remarks yesterday, Mr. Chairman, I made note of the fact that government has recently signed an interim subsidiary agreement with Ottawa for some $10 million or $12 million for various projects in Labrador,but that is only an interim one. We have now I' . I I_ ·' .. r:·· .

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1266 JH - 2 }ffi. PECKFORD: before the Federal Government, before DREE,a large proposal which covers all sectors,social and resource,of Labrador and the total package in dollar terms is about $130 million,to put before DREE as a major, major initiative in trying to develop Labrador both from a social point of view, services point of view, water and sewer and all the rest of it, transportation point of view and also from the point of view of economic and industrial development and cultural development.

So this document,if and when it is approved,is going to be perhaps the main document that will guide the development of Labrador over the next decade. So it is a very important document in our view and so important, Mr. Chairman, that we have now passed it over to a group in Labrador that this government funds, the Labrador Resources Advisory Council, for their vie~1s to ensure that this document is the kind of document that not just the Department of Rural Development wants or the Government of Newfoundland wants but that the people of Labrador ~1ant.

So it •.ti.ll be interesting to see as days and weeks go on how this proposal gets along both with the Federal Government and in our ongoing discussions with the people of Labrador themselves. As I mentioned yesterday, Hr. Chairman, I think the budget for the Department of Rural Development this year is around $16 million and $9 million goes to Labrador and shows in a very tangible way the kind of committment that we have - MR. NEARY: Could we have a quorum call, t'.r. Chairman1 }ffi. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for LaPoile was not in his seat. l'IR..

CHAIRHAN: Order please~ A quorum has been called. I would ask the law clerk to ring the bell.

April 20, 1978 Tape 1267 D- 1 l~R. CHAIRHM<: Would the Clerk count the Committee? A quorum is present. The han. ~inister of Rural Development. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, I was trying to make the point about our ongoing commitment to Labrador and that it can best be demonstrated, I suppose, in a tangibl .e, concrete way by the breakdown in the financing this year under the Department of Rural Development which out of a total budget of around $16 million has approximately $9 million committed to various programmes to the Labrador

section of our Province. :rr. Chairman, the Department of Rural Development, as I indicated,has been expanding over the last number of years and we have been having some problems as it relates to not only being programme orientated but to also be policy orientated. It is fairly easy, lfr. Chairman, to develop a programme, provide a programme like the.RDA loans and have applications and field staff and so on and to then approve or reject various proposals that come forward for sawmill operations, for fish processing, for additional farm equipment for a farmer or whatever the case may be.

That is a very important component of rural development in this Province, unquestionably, but there must also be simultaneous with that commitment an ongoing programme as we have it through RDA, as we have it through the industrial incentives grants with the federal government, through .-\.RDA.

We must also have a component in the departmen~ which re-examines from time to time the existing progra~~es which goes around the Province and tries to identify that the kinds of programmes we have in place today are the kinds of programmes which are best suited to developing small business enterprise and resource . . . r r ! I I I= r ' ' ! --: ~

April 20, 1978 Tape 1267 IB-2 MR. PECKFORD: development in the Province. And hense we have in the department now a number of divisions which deal directly this way. We have, for example, a division in the department which communicates on a daily basis,really,with field staff, with the Development Association.

It was last night that I spoke to all the co-ordinators of all the Development Associations in the Province and the ongoin~ communication between the Department of Rural Develop~ent through its division there to ensure that all the Development Associations are kept fully informed on the kinds of things that the Department of Rural Development do,and we get input and contributions from the ~ural Develo?ment Council as well as from individual Development Associations.

As most people know we fund the ~ural Development Council,which is the umbrella body which encompasses all the Development Associations and they are all members of that Rural Development Council funded - I forget how much is there in the estimates, $40,000 or $50,000 a year. And they publish a newspaper to all the rural parts of the Province and of course to the urban parts as well to tell what is going on in various parts of the Province. And I want today to table in the House, Mr.

Chairman. a special edition of the Rounder,which is financed through the Department of ~ural Development which sort of tries to give in a quick, brief way the kinds of issues that they address and what is going on,really,in rural ~ewfoundland. And I want to table that as an indication of the kind of work that has gone ahead now between the Department of Rural Development, the Rural Development Council and the Develo?ment Association. And this is extremely important. There is no way that somebody sitting here in St. John's or

April 20, 1978 Tape 1257 IB-3 HR. PECK?'ORD: even sitting in Grand Falls or Gander or Corner Brook because they are staff people under the Department of Rural Development,there is no way that they can develop the kinds of programmes that will be applicable to a certain part of Green Bay and at the same time ...

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 126S RT-1 ''ffi.. PECKFORD: applicable to a certain part of Bonne !lay or a certain part of lfuite . ;- Bay because the conditions change. lfuat is suitable for resource development in a rural setting in one part of Newfoundland is not suitable in another part of NeHfoundland. Suffice it to say that something that can be made viable as for a small industry of eight or ten people employed in Conche might not necessarily be the kind of industry you will be looking at in, say, Hoody Point.

Hence, it is very important that the development associations, the twenty-eight or thirty of them that are on stream right now, ~.rho all get grants from the ~epartment of Rural Development, $13,000 a year, and then additional financing as proposals come in, that there is this interface bet1o1een the Department of ll..ural Development and the individual development association in their areas as well as through the parent body, the Rural DeveloplT'.ent Council, which has its headquarters in Gander and has a small staff who developed that paper that I just referred to. So, ~~.

Chairman, I would like to put emphasis on the fact that the Department of Rural Development is just not a pro~ram-orientated, or a project-orientated deoartment, even though that is important and t1vo or three divisions in the department are committed to nothing else only analyzing projects through the RDA program and through the Industrial Incentives program w·hich are t1vo major parts of the Home Industries division of the department, but also, just as important is the ongoing planning that tr.ust take place between development associations and the department, be~.reen individuals and field staff out in the field, to change the programs, to modify them, to introduce new programs as 'Ne move on with t!-le rural development programs anC. as ~•e see that different kinds of emphasis must be placed.

So, rather than look at the Department of Rural Development as a project-orientated department, it also has a strong commitment to developing new policies and to bringing in new progra1ns "hich •,Till

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1268 RT-2 ~'R. PECKFORD: reflect changing conditions as lve go forward year after year. ~.dditionally, !1r. Chairman, before my time runs out I should spend some time on talking about the project-orientated divisions of the department, and that is the Home Industries division under ~~hich comes the RDA program and the Industria], Grants program. I am going to table, ~r. Chairman, the statistics for that division for 1977-78. For example, Rural Development Authority, 1977-78, approved 237 loans valued at over $3,000,000.

That is up over last year,l976-77, primarily because of the Action Group in the last several months, a fev mo~ths,that have expedited a number of applications and brought more on strea.'l!. Mr. Chai~an, just think that in 1977-78 the Government of N~~foundland through the Department of Rural Development, through the RDA program, ~~as able to create 392 ne1V jobs. 392 ne1v jobs. Another Come-by-Chance, through rural development programs, through the RDA program. 392 jobs in 1977-78. To date; Mr.

Chairman, since this program started, the program that was initiated, started, conceived, put into action by this government, the total number of jobs created through this program is 3,318. He have been able to create 3,318 new jobs in rural parts of the Province involving over 1,000 loans. This is the kind of action that we hear very little about on the radio or in the neHspapers. These are little jobs that are going ahead every day, a carpenter shcp here, a fish-processing plant there, handicrafts- a tremendous per:=ormance, ~~r. Chairman, in a very short period of time.

In 1977-78 just about 400 ne1; jobs created through the 'TA progral!l, a tremendous performance. Under the Industrial Incentives program, Hhich is a grant program shared 1vith the Federal Government, 1Ve have a total number of full-time jobs of 158 in 1977-78. 158 new jobs and 413 seasonal jobs through the Industrial Incentives grants program. Hr. Chairman, I would

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1259 JM- 1 MR. PECKFORD: like to table copies of these statistics so each member can have a copy of them, so the press can have a copy of them. So, Hr. Chairman, from a project orientated point of view we have been able to deliver sizeable amounts of money to small enterprises in rural ~ewfoundlar.d that have created a lot of new jobs in the places where these people live. Of course that is the whole philosophy behind the Rural Development Department in any case. 3,318 since the programme started back three or four years ago, a tremendous performance, Mr.

Chairman, and it continues to grow as ea~, year goes by. Additionally, Hr. Chairman, on the handicraft side we have in the last couple of years been able to year stimulate the handicraft industry in this province, all over the prov!nce. I do not know if there is one area of the province how where you do not have,through some existing organization, through t~e development association or the women's institute or whatever, a fairly heavy committment by groups of women and men towards handicrafts.

It has always been said over the years that when people come here from other places, from other provinces or other countries,they often wonder why they cannot buy some little ~ickknock which was made and which was sort of native or indigenous to Newfoundland. Well that is rapidly changing, Hr. Chairman, and now today we find a lot of new handicraft shops and a lot of new things ~eing done in that field. I men::ioned earlier the fact that we 'nad through the Department of Rural Development put a proposal to DP£E as it related to Labrador totalling $130 million. ~!r.

Chairman, ,.,e have not only ~de a major sizeable committment to Labrador but we have also identified that we must keep reviewing our programmes,as I saidland we have now also put before DREE for a new rural development programme, a new subsidiary agreement, a rural development subsidiary agreement to deal with specifically a new handicraft programme that takes us over five years to be cost shared 1 I 1 f I .I

April 20, 1978 Tape No.l269 JH - 2 MR. PECKFORD: some things fifty-fifty other things ninety-ten. We have put before them - this is a three component kind of proposal, a community development scheme for the next five years and thirdly ve have put before them a new industrial incentives programme. The industrial incentives programme has now run out. 11e are a tiny bit behind on it and hopefully we will get the industrial incentives component part of the development plan signed in May so that we can go ahead 1~ith that programme.

The old one has run out but the other components are new and they represent about $18 million. We are hoping that we will be able to cost share $18 million over the next five years in those three areas of rural development. So, Mr.Chairman, as you can see there is a lot of work going on in the Department of Rural Development as it relates to policy formulation, programme development and precisely projects that are going ahead. 3,000 jobs since the programme started and 400 jobs last year. Ur.

Chairman, I have tabled a statistical list as it relates to the home industries diVision, the amount of money spent to date, the number of loans, the number of jobs created and so on. I am not prepared as Minister of Rural Development ~o table the names because I think it would be unfair to the applicants concerned to table the names for the loans. We do not do it for the Farm Loan Board, we do not do it for the Fisheries Loan Board,and I do not think it would be fair to the applicants to have their names tabled here in this hon. House so that you could get - AN RON. MEMBER: You are ashamed. MR.

PECKFORD_: Not a bit ashamed. But, Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to have the hon. nember who is the shadow minister over on the other side if he so desires to come down to the Department of Rural Development to show him the names - if he so desires, if he thinks there is somethinf scurrilous or underhanded or something going on. But I am not prepared to table the names here in the House so that it gets out in the paper I .I

April 20, 1978 Tape ~o. 1269 ~~ - 3 ~. PECKFORD: ~nd somebody's name down in Toogood Arm or Hibo s Hole -.· and somebody nexe door says, "No \."Onder this geneleman is prospering. He has the government on h is side or he has some :und of srant' ' which some people still translate as being welfare when it is not. It is a loan which is paid back under che RDA prograltl!lle. And so I am prepared to do that, ~lr. Chairman, to show my good faith in sayi:-~g to the Opposieion

Apri~ 20, 1978 Tape l270 IB-1 ;{R. P E:CKFORD: opposite that if they ~ant t he names of the firms and the in4ividuals concerned, if they want to take a look at that, I am prepared to have a designate from the other side come down to the Department of lu r al De velopment and see those names so that he will see that there is nothing, we are not hiding a thing. But Ye do not think it is prop er to. do it this "'ay when people in good faith hav e put together a financi a l pac kage . I am prepared to go that route , to do that kind of thin g and I think that is th e proper way to go. Mr .

Chairman, I think you have indicated that my time bas expired and I appreciat e any q uestions from the opposite side and I will try to do my best t o answer them. The hon . membe r for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN : ~r . Chairman, in his openin~ remarks on Rural Deve lopment the minis.ter talked about resettlemen t and we in the Opposition thou gh t that this was the rad herring that he would drag in to t he whole affair . However h e did not stay on that too l ong, the resettlement thin g and how this is how it started out.

All I want to sa y i n connection wi th that,and no doubt other speakers who know more about it than I uo ~ ill expand on that? all I wa nt to ·say, :!:: . Chairman, about reset tle~:~ent is go do•,rn and ask the people who live in Arnold's Cov e, go down and poll t hese people, ask those p eople how t hey feel about resettlement and they will tell you that it 1s the best t hi ~g that they ever d i d. I speak of Arno ld's Cove, :~r. Ch airman, beca use it is in my distric t . ::r .

Chai rman, t he question that should be asked in Arnold's Cove, I t hink, or perhaps the aniwer that should be given is, tel l the people in ~roold's Cove what I I I 1 1 ! .I :. I " t' ;'

April 20, 1978 Tape 1270 IB-2 ]..!R. CALLAN: time they will be getting a gymnasium or a gymnatorium or an auditorium onto their school. There are 300 students t~ere and for the last six years under this administration they have been waiting to get a gym put on their school as a result of the influx of the population that came in there who were happy to resettle in a big town. But now~of course,naturally they want the facilities that go with fairly large towns. AN RON. ME~BER: (Inaudible). _!_!P.. CALLAN: Well, I do not know, it has been expanding every year.

It is no more than eight or nine years old but it has been expanding. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, that is not what I want to talk about in the twenty minutes that I have here. ~r. Chairman, I am not going to address too Aany remarks or to talk too much about the present minister, either, because I rather doubt that the minister who now is holding down this department has his heart in it. He already has one portfolio, Mines and Energy and for the past two or three days looking across the House, ~r.

Chairman, I have been noticing that the minister who is now the ~inister of Rural Development as well as Mines and Energy has been reading a book, I have seen it as he has been reading it there, I have seen the back of it, the cover, Galbraith, The ~ Of Uncertainty. Mr. Chairman, I would say that the minister feels a little bit uncertain about this department which brings me 7 Mr. Chairman, to a very important question. Bhy did the former minister resign that department of government? ~!r.

Chairman, the former minister gives as his reason for resigning from the Cabinet the fact that the Premier had reneged on a promise to expand the Central .I

:\pril 20, 1973 !ape 127'J IB-3 ~R . CALLA!!: Newfoundland Rospita l. ~r. Chairman, I contend that ,. that was just a smoke screen, I contend that the former ~inister of Ru ral Develop~ent had other more importan t reasons for leaving the Cabinet and giving up t~ is depa rt men t of government. I contend, ~ r. Chairman, that this depa rtme nt,which was created i~ 1972 under this administration, that this department was in such a mess , some of it created by the former ~inister, the ministe r who preceded the meober for Grand Falls (~r.

Lundrigan), the first ministe r of this depa rt ment, t his de partment was in such a ~ess, t her~ was so much money given out. This de?artment, )!r . Chairman, is like a Crown corporation.

April 20, 1973 Tape No. 1271 RT-1 ~!R. CALLA..>;: It has all the trappings, political interference, political patronage, and so on. I "auld say, ~!r. Chairman, that the real reason wby the member for Grand Falls (~fr. Lundrigan) left the Cabinet and therefore left this department of Government is because he knew what >>as happening there and he wanted no longer to be a part of it. Mr.

Chairman, I believe that the former minister s~• the sinking ship, he was on board t~at sinking ship, the Administration of the PC Government is the sinking ship that I am referring to, 1\e s~·T it as a sinking ship, the Leader of the Government, the Premier, grabbing for straws to try and hold on, and in so doing, caused a bigger mess than existed beforehand. Mr. Chairman, I would say this that it is ordinarily the rats that leave the sinking ship, but in this case I do not think it was. I thin!< that many of the rats still stayed there.

Some of them indicated during the Easter recess that they were going to join the member for Grand Falls in leaving the _sin:dng ship, but for some reason they ch~~ged their minds. MR. FLIGHT: Seven of them. ~. CALLAN: MR. FLIGHT: The Ministers of Tourism, nf T.f!.l-oP.r- MR. ROUSSEAU: Point of order, Hr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The han. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: I think the han. member, being the gentleman he is, would not like to refer to people over here as rats, and I think maybe - MR. FLIGHT: Han. rats. ~'ll.

RClUSS~AU: -it might have been a lapsus linguae and he ;;auld be prapared to withdraw that as it insults all members on this side of the House. MR. FLIGHT: How about han. rats? UR. CALLAN: Figuratively speaking. MR.NEARY: That is not a point of order, Mr. Chairman . 't I

April 20, 1971l Tape No. 1271 l'.T-2 To t~at point of order, HR. CHAIRHAN: To that point. of ordE.r. The member N'as unparliamentary, I am sure. The words chosen are not suitable for the Committee and I ask the hen. member to withdraw t!.at remark. !-'R. CALLAN: Thank you,.Mr. Chairman. Obviously, the minister kner¥ that, of course, I N'as using the sinking ship and the ship of state, anc! so _on, figuaratively. AnYT>~ay, if it offends any hon. member oonosite I rvithdra•• that remark,of course. Mr.

Chairman, I think the last straw, again I arn speaking figuratively, of course, the stra~r that broke the camel's back, I think, for the former Minister of Rural Development, the straw that broke the minister's back and set him on the road to resignation was the straw that r•as created and was announced on January 26, AN RON. "''EWWER: That he '"as fired. MR. CALLAN: - 1978. That ro1as the night, Mr. Chairman, '"hen the Premier of this Province, after leavinq us in sus-rense for t:<m days, came out with a grandiose announcement.

I, out in Bellevue, do not mind saying that for two days I waited in anticipation of this ?.reat announcement that the Premier of the Province '"as going to make over the ai~¥aves. Irr !:<Jo days time; he said, 'I ,.rill be making a big announcement'. I obviously thought that the announcement would regard the re-opening of the Come-by-Ch~nce oil refinery. I understand froT'l the member from Stephenville (Yr. r<c!:'!eil) that tv; •·?2S also anxiously al>'a:.i.ting the announcement because he thou;:1t it '>ad something to do ,,it;, c:-.e re-opening of the linerboard mill. ~ !h at was the big announcement, :·~r.

Chairman? Action Group, 737-3~')~. 'cr. Chairman, if I may refer to an

article in a ne,·Tspaper ~-rritten about that time, and this bears out the point that I a:'il trying to n:a~ce ~-Tith the me"'l!ler for Grand Falls dissatisfaction over l·That was happening and hm; he was being insulted, ~fr. Chairman,

April 2'1, 19n Tape :;o. 1271 RT-3 reading from this newspaper, it says, 'There is something that sounds pretty phony about the new Action Group announced this Heek. To start with,it is not needed because if the need for it exists then a large part of the staff of the ~ewfoundland Development Authority and the Net~foundland and Labrador Development Corporation, and I include in that the Rural Development Authority,

April 20, 1978 Tape 1272 IB-1 HR. CALLAN: should be fired. Also in line to be fired should be the officials in charge of various commissions, boards and committees which are responsible for handling of government loans, grants and subsidies, the Department of Rural Development,to businesses and individuals. All these people should be fired: says this article, 'because according to the Premier they nake it too difficult for an applicant to get approval for a loan, a grant or a subsidy.

These officials have created so much red tape the Premier had to set up this new super agency called Action Group which is supposed to jump smartly to attention and pass out your money if you dial 737-3800.' 11r. Chairman, I would say that this Action Group undermined the Department of Rural Development as it undermined other departments and boards and corporations of the government. The

article goes on to say, 'I . would think the people already doing the jop of handling government development funds are really proud of their record for dealing with applications and getting the money out to these who meet the regulations. Yet these very peopl~ -and this includes of course the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Lundrigan)- ' yet these very people have to accept the insult of being told that they are making a mess of things and they have to put up with this new super agency which has been stuck on the end of a telephone with a staff of seven already in place and no doubt plenty more to come.

This sets up a new level of red tape for the applicant who now will be phoning Action Group instead of Development Authority.' '~hat is so surprising is that up to now the government has been very proud of its record for small enterprise development. It boasted of this record in the

April 20, 1978 Tape 1272 IB-2 :-IR. CALL AcT: Douse of ~ssembly and was pleased to issue press releases to show how many applicants' applications were approved. Now all too suddenly that record is all wrong and sports announcer Bob Cole has to be brought in to put things right; says the article. 1 It is pretty tough on career civil servants~and Cabinet ministers~ I insert that part - ~ho have sweated it out for half a lifetime to get to the top job only to see some wizard slid in without having to touch first base.

What makes this look so phony is that it is not necessary to set up this Action Group under a television personality. A change in the rules would cut out the need for red tape, a change in the rules.' 1But now that Cole is there,his Action Group will be credited with all the approval made by the Develop~ent Authority and the Development Corporation. That is good election material. This whole business has an election smell to it and you should not be surprised if the television clips you see advertisizing the Action Group turn up again as part of the P.C. election campai~n.

That is one way of using public money to finance a party's election expenses,' says the article. If you guessed that Bob Cole is going- to be a candidate in the next election you could be right. Any,,ray it is a sad week '"hen the civil servants and some '":abinet ministers •N"hO have been doing a good job get hell blasted out of then because it suics the Prenier's purpose to hurt them. Their plan becomes Bob Cole's glory. That, 1lr. Chair~an, is one of the stra\vS that broke the camel's back and therefore led the former ~!inister of Rural Development to throw in the towel , to resign. nr.

Chairman, the former l!inister of Rural Development was also the former Minister of Industrial

April 20, 1978 Tape 1272 IB-3 NP .. CALLAN: Development. Let us leak at the record, Mr. Chairman. I want. to ask this question. I asked this question last year. Is there really any need or was there really any need for this department of government? What is and what was there happening in this depart~ent that could not have been happening at the same time

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1273 JM - 1 MR. Tfl. CALLAN: in the Department of Fisheries, Mr. Chairmanl The Minister of Rural Development and the Hinister of Industrial Development talks about the grants and loans made to fish plants and fish processing. ~~.Chairman, these things could just as easily and just as well been handled within the Department of Fisheries. Why not? We also see in that list just tabled logging, sawmilling, planer mill, wood debarking, boat building - MR. NEARY: Rags, rag manufacturing. HR. W. CALLAJ."l: What is there, ~~. Chairman, - :ClR. ;:;!EA..1tY: Wiping rags. ~m. W.

CALLiU"l: What is there, Mr.Chairman, that could not have been just carried out just as well and just as efficiently within the Department of Fisheries or within the Department of Forestry and Agriculture? Mr. Chairman, I think,and it is my personal opinion,that this was an unnecessary department of government. Mr. Chairman, let me refer to another newspaper article. It says, "Famous Promise. On ' June 2, 1971 the Premier," who was not the Premier then- I I AN HON. HamER: (Inaudible) • .! NR. CALLA.."!: Nb, no, dry.

"On June 2, 1971 Frank Va>ores surfaced at the Newfoundland and Labrador Press Club to make his famous promise to reduce the size of the Cabinet(when he became Premier) from nineteen ·• to twelve members." From nineteen to twelve. "As it turned out, Hoores' first cabinet,formed the night of January 18, 1972 had fifteen members including himself and that is the smallest it has ever been." Mr. Chairman, is there a need for this department? What is it doing?

What is it accomplishing that could not have been just as well accomplished in other departments of government and of course in line with that and referring again to the straw that broke the camel's back as far as the former minister was concerned and caused him to resign using the Central Newfoundland Hospital as a smoke screen, what caused him to resign was the setting up of another department of

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1273 JM - 2 HR. CALLAN: government,even though it is not called that, another department of government with the highest paid - MR. NEARY: ----- Another level of bureaucracy. MR. CALLAN: That is right, the highest paid minister of all, $47,500 a year. :·IR.. NEARY : More than the Premier makes,by the way. MR. CALLA..'<: Hore than the Premier makes. Hr. Chairman, what has been accomplished in the last years? lfuat has been accomplished? Hhat has the Department of Rural Development and the Department of Industrial Development to show? \fuat industries have been created? Hr.

Chairman, I can think of one industry that was created. MR. ~EARY: 1fuat about the - HR. CALLA..'<: It cost an awful lot of money to create this industry. It is not an industry at all,I suppose, Hr. Chairman. Perhaps it is better to call it a plant and this plant, "tr. Chairman,has the best brains in the province behind it. It is located on the eighth floor of this building. And what does this plant produce, Hr. Chairman? This plant turns out moth balls.

They manufacture moth balls so they can put the Come by Chance oil refinery into moth balls, so that they can put the Labrador Linerboard mill into moth balls and so they can put these sawmills that are described here - the many grants and loans that have been made available to set up sawmills that have closed down. They have closed down. Hr. Chairman, I would like to know how much money is owed to the Department of Rural Development. How much? How much is owed? How much was given out? Hu~ much was Federal,by the way? Let us hear!

Tell us how much of this was Federal money and then tell us how much was given out and how much is presently owed? I know of cases myself, Hr. Chairman, \<There loans and grants were given out and not one copper returned. But anyway, Hr. Chairman, if I can conclude. I have been told I have one minute but I will be getting back to this later on,I assume,for another few minutes. But if I can get back to that moth ball plant that is located on the eighth floor of this building, :~. Chairman, I would say

April 20, 1978 Tape ~:o. 1274 NM- 1 NIL CALL.AJ.'I : this, that there ·arc lots of use for these moth balls, lots of places to put them, and I would suggest, 1-lr. Chairman, that some of the people who created that moth ball plant are using these moth balls as well. Obviously they must have some in their ears if not they would hear the shouts of shame and despair that are heard throughout this Province under this administration. }JR. CHAIRMA.'I: The hon. member for LaPoile. :IR. :mARY: ~!r.

Speaker, the minister responsible for Rural Development,Sir, tabled this afternoon in the House two or three sheets of paper, Sir, showing a list of the capital cost, the amounts,so the minister told us, of grants and the jobs that were created as a result of giving out these grants. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am sure that the hon. gentleman does not think, Sir, that we are going to be satisfied with this vague. general information that \:as tabled by the .hon. minister. ' this $3 million that was approved by the Rural Development Authority? I i .I 'tfuat we want, ~!:;:.

Chairman, what we want and what this House demands and what the people of this Province want to know, is who received Give us the names of the people who received these loans and grants. If the hon. gentleman has nothing to hide, Sir, the hon. gentleman would table, as has been the custom and tradition in this House all down through the years, that when public money is expended, \~hen money is approved by this House, loans and grants are given to people, that a list of the loans and the people who received them and the companies that received them have to be brought into this hon. House. Mr.

Chairman, the ~remier is quick on the trigger when it comes to bringing in information on telephone bills of the Opposition. The hon. Premier is not so quick to bring us in any information in connecti~n with these loans and grants that were given out to 237 people in this Province. Who are they? Mr. Chairman, on this side of the House,

April 20, 1978 Tape No. 1274 ID1- 2 NR. NEARY: Sir, you have a group of intelligent, responsible people who are not going to abuse any individual or any company . f in this Province who genuinely receives loans and grants from the Rural Development Authority, ~~e would be glad, Sir, and we have done it ourselves when we were in the administration. Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Premier, Sir, went around this Province for six years condemning the former premier of this Province, calling him a rogue, and a crook and calling him all kinds of names, concealing information, hiding information from the public.

Now, Sir, ,;ho is more guilty of concealing and hiding information from the people of this Province but the han. gentlemen themselves1 Because, Mr. Chairman, the former Premier of this Province, in the twenty-three years that he wus Premier of Newfoudland, not once, Sir, did the hon. gentleman refuse to table lists in this hon. House, no matter how iamaging it was to him or his administration, no matter how damaging it was.

Under the Financial Administration Act of this Province these lists, Sir, should be tabled and for two years now rUih~ing, and this. is the third year in a row,we have asked the l!inister of Rural Development for a list of all those who have been given loans and grants from the Rural Development Authority and the minister has refused to give the House the information, which indicates to me, Sir, that the minister and the government have something to hide, and if they did not, Sir, they would lay the list on the table of this hon. House. Mr.

Chairman, we all k~ow of political hacks, Tory hacks who have gotten their mitts into this Rural Development Authority. I know one gentleman that I defeated on two occasions, who got his hooks into the Rural Development Authority. It was a PC candidate, got his hooks into the Rural Development Authority for $15,000 or $20,000 o