Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 146 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-146

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, May 29, 197 4 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 4059 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery, where we have 44 students of Grade 5 and 6 standing of the St. Jean Elementary School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Raymonde Dupuis. This school is located in the const ituency of the Hono urable Member for Rhineland. And we have 56 students of Grade 5 standing of the Polson School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Fagan and Mrs. Lacroix.

This school is located in the const ituency of the Honourable Member for Kildonan, my own constituency. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. TABLING OF REPORTS HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the annual report of the Legislative Library and Archives for 1973. MR.

SPEAKER: Any other ministerial statements or tabling of reports? The Honourable House Leader . HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resou rces and Env ironmental Management) (Inkster) : Well, Mr. Sp eaker, I wonder if we can get agreement to having the Committee on Municipal Affairs meet tonight concurrent with the meeting of Privileges and Elections. Apparently there is only a sm all bit of work remaining on the Municipal Affairs Co mmittee and it would facilitate the business of the House if they met tonight, Municipal Affairs at the same time as Privileges and Elections. MR.

SP EAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Official Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speak er, before we acknowledge that this should be the case, I would like to be able to check with some of our caucus members who are in the caucus room, but I would assume that if arrangements have not been made for some thing else for them, that they'll undertake that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader . MR. GREEN: Could we take it, Mr. Speaker, that the Committee will meet unless the members indicate otherwise, so that arrangements can be made to meet? MR.

SPEAKER: Agreed? Very well. Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions . The Honourable Leader of the Oppos ition. ORAL QUEST ION PERIOD MR. SP IVAK: My question is to the First Minister. It relates to the press statement by Hydro with respect to an agreement in principle being reached with the Minneapolis Power Company for construction of a $300 million power connection. The press statement indicates that approval is required from the Provincial Governm ent and from the National Energy Board. Is the First Minister in a position to indicate that the approval has been given by the govern ment?

And then I wonder if he can indicate what the procedures will be with respect to the National Energy Board. MR. SPE AKER: The Ho nourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCH REYER (Premier) (Ros smere): Well, Mr. Speaker, the sequence is that the letter of intent which was exchanged in this respect, will be followed up by a Cabinet paper requiring an Order-in-Co uncil to be the instrument by which government approval would be provided, immediately following which the formal application will go to the National Energy Board.

We expect this to be so mething which would be carried out some time before midsum mer of this year. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister's in a pos ition to indicate that the price of power to be so ld in the United States will not be less than the actual cost to Manitoba Hydro for power being suppl ied.

4060 May 29, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SCH REYER: Well I think, Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt in that connection. It is part of the formula to provide for incremental cost plus an amount of 10 percent; either that or a price which would be some what higher as determined by the coal escalation index to the utilities as measured by the statistical agencies of Canada and the United States. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister can indicate when it is likely that the National Energy Board will hear the application for the export--when. Yes . MR. SCHREYER: Well it's my understanding, Mr.

Speaker, that the hearings would take place here, then you would be here, and it would be a matter of a few months - I can't be more precise than that - after the receipt of the application, so that I would think, bear ing in mind the docket or agenda now facing the National Energy Board, it would put it sort of early fall or mid-autumn. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Well, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

Ca n we then take it that his government has approved in principle the entry into this agreement, and if so, could he indicate the length of the contract that is proposed to be signed to provide power to the Northern States Power Co rp. , and the amount of power to be sold? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, one can very quickly get into detail on a matter of this kind, which is rather difficult in this Ch amber.

I would simply advise my honourable friend the Member for Wolseley that it is an agreement which is predicated on the sale of seaso nal diversity or summe r surplus energy for the .most part, for the very large part, and as such does not contain binding commitments which must be, the supply of which must be honoured regardles s of what, so in that respect it is a summer surplus sale, block sale, over a period of 12 years.

But I emphasize again that the agreement will provide for contingencies having to do with low water levels, drought, acts of God, generating capacity, and even load growth domestically in Manitoba}etc. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Does the government have any assu rances that the northern power sites on the Nelson and Churchill will not have to be developed at a faster rate than is already sc heduled in order to meet the commitments that it's making? MR. SCHREYER: A spe cific question, Mr.

Speaker, and the answer specifically is no, there is no commitment to escalate construction sch edules. That decision-making is left to the government of the province of that day. We're talking now about a time frame 1980 onward, and subject to National Energy Board policy. MR. ASP ER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. I understood him to say delivery date 1980 approximately ? Commencement of construction date. Delivery. Right.

Well then, my question is: will it be pos sible for the government of Manitoba to wait before commencing con struction, and being bound to the agreement, to await a court decision on the alleged lawsuit that is either under way or is about to be commenced by the Nelson House Indian Band to contest the entire project, or will we be proce eding in spite of any litigation over the project? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, that is largely academic in the sense that the Matter has to go to the National Energy Board. There will be a time span of several months.

Following that, there would be detailed engineering, design and planning with respect to trans missi on facility. Commencement of construction, however, would have to take place some time in approximately 18 months from now, in order for the capability, the transmission capability to be in place for 1980. CO MMITTEE SUBSTITUTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burr ows): Mr.

Ch airman, I beg leave of the House to have my name transferred from Law Amendments Committee to Privileges and Elections, and that of the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce from Privileges and Elections to Law Amendments. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON (Gladstone): Yes , Mr. Speaker. I'd like to make some changes on the committees als o, and would like to subs titute the name of Mr. Jorgenson of

May 29, 1974 4061 COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTIONS (MR. FERGUSON cont'd) ..... Morris for Mr. Einarson of Rock Lake - that's on Privileges and Elections. And on Municipal Affairs, the name of Moug of Charleswood for McKellar of Souris-Killarney. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Public Works. I regret not having given him prior notice, but Mr. Speaker, at the invitation of the Minister of Public Works I viewed with pride and pleasure the bronze plaque commemo rating the visit of Her Majesty the Queen.

My question is, will the Minister advise when it is intended to install same in this building for the benefit of Manitobans and visitors alike? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HON. RUSSELL J. DOERN (Minister of Public Works) (Minister of Public Works) (Elm wood): Well, Mr. Speaker, it hasn't been finalized but I think our present intention is to unveil the plaque on July 15th, which would be the anniversary of the province. MR. BILTON: A supplementary to the Minister.

I wonder, will the Minister accept the suggestion that it be installed on the west side wall of the main entrance to the building? MR. DOERN: No, Mr. Speaker. STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may have leave of the House to make a short personal message? MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? The Honourable Member. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, on the 15th of April at approximately 3:00 o'clock, I left this Chamber to enter the Misericordia Hospital, not realizing at that time that I would be away for this length of time.

I want to convey to you, Sir, to the First Minister, and to all members of this Chamber, and through the President of the Press Gallery to all members of the press gallery, for their messages of assurance of my return to good health. I recall some of the signatures on the card that was sent to me in the Misericordia, some humorous comments, and I want them to know that they were very much appreciated.

The second thing is the bereave ment of a member of our family, and I say this, Sir, with a very heavy heart, that it seems as though one has to go through this tragedy to realize the messages that my wife and family received from the members of this Chamber and from the members of the gallery, the comfort and the strength that it gave to us, and I want to convey this in a means of extending our most sincere gratitude for that comfort and strength. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. ADAM (Ste.

Rose): I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Resources. I wonder if he could advise if Fairford Dam is still fully open at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: I'll have to take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. ADAM: I have a question for the First Minister. In view of the fact of his announce ment about perhaps compensation for cottage damages on Lake Winnipeg, I wonder in view of the fact that Lake Dauphin is over two feet over normal maximum level, would there be any com pensation for cottages and other buildings around Lake Dauphin? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it was this morning, I believe in answer to a question by the Honourable the Member for Wolseley, that I indicated that because of the high lake levels obtaining on most, if not all, lakes in Manitoba, and due to the fact that the lake levels were due to the far above average inflows on all the streams running into the various lakes, that we were pursuing what the Government of Canada, what we believe to be a logical inclusion of Peacetime Disaster Assistance to property damage around the periphery of lakes as well as along flooded river streams, but I did not, Mr.

Speaker, and I'm sure the record will show, that I did not confirm that there would necessarily be compensation available under the federal provincial program with respect to cottage properties. Buildings pertinent, yes; cottages,

4062 May 29, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ..... perhaps. That is a matter that's still being pursued. MR . ADAM: A supplementary question. I wonder if there is any consideration of com pensation for flooded lands on the periphery of these lakes - crop lands, I'm speaking of. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I've indicated that under the terms of the federal provincial Peacetime Disaster Compensation financing agreement, that there is provision for compensation with respect to structural damage, with respect to damage to personal property and goods, including cattle, including grain in storage, including market gardening plants, inventory, assistance to small business up to $6, OOOJetc.

There is, however, no provision in that agreement with respect to flooded lands as such, and the federal agreement specifically refers to the fact that that program cannot be used to compensate with respect to damages, recovery of which can be taken at law or under normally available insurance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture. Could the Minister inform the House when the tenders will be issued for the water and sewer project in the Cranberry Portage area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON.

SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the tenders, or the calling of tenders, will be some time this week. The advertisements will likely be placed some time by Friday or Saturday. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Public Works.

Could the Minister, in view of his announcement of the major development plans of the Provincial Government for office towers and parking areas in the down town areas adjacent to the Legislative Buildings, could he inform us whether the Provincial Government has conducted proper impact studies on the effect that these developments will have in the immediate area on street patterns, on residents, on noise, and if so, is he prepared to table such reports for our information? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I think on a general basis that there have been discussions between the Province and the City for a number of years in terms of our general desires in the area, our general plans and intentions, but nothing I think as detailed as the honourable member would suggest. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Minister be prepared to undertake a series of consultations or discussions with residents who live in the immediate area of the Legislative Buildings to discuss such plans and to detail the possible impact or effect that the Provincial Government's expansion plans will have upon the residential area of this downtown part of the City? MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Speaker, this has been discussed with the Committee on the Environment and I assume that that is their responsibility. MR. AXWORTHY: I have a further supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

In terms of these plans, are they in any way, or have they been considered in terms of any general over-all plan for the development of the area adjacent to the Legislative Buildings, or are they simply single plans for buildings and parking lots. Or, to put it another way, are the plans part of an over all development plan for this area south of St. Mary's affecting the residential area, and of some 5, 000 people? MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Speaker, any of us who have been around for awhile know about master plans and general schemes and then the alterations that often affect them. We have had various plans.

I think that this plan has been modified, but it' s very difficult to abstractly develop a master plan and then try to stick to it. I think we have evolved in a series of master plans. COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if you would substitute the name of the Honourable Mr. Cherniack for the Honourable Mr. Schreyer on the Committee of Privileges and Elections.

May 29, 1974 4063 ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture. Has the Minister been able to find the time and the strength to get to a telephone to phone the Chairman of the Hog Marketing Commission to find out what the price differential is between hogs sold by that Commission in the United States and in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I should like to remind the honourable member that I answered him this morning to the effect that I did contact the Board through the Chairman, but have not had a report. Now, I think it also has to be said, Mr. Speaker, that it is really within the purview of the Board as to whether they want to give any information in that respect and the extent of which they want to impart information. All boards are autonomous of government, and it may be a matter of policy that we have to allow them to consider, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister, is he now suggesting that the Chairman of the Hog Marketing Board would refuse him this information? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, what I'm trying to suggest is that it may require a meeting of their Board to decide the extent to which they want to make information available. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, my question, I remind the Minister that the ... MR. SPEAKER: Question? MR. G.

JOHNSTON: ... that he gave a commitment to the House to supply that informa tion, and I ask him to try and proceed as quickly as possible in view of the fact that the House will not be sitting that much longer. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is making a statement. Would he kindly place his question and not make statements. MR. G. JOHNSTON: A question to the Minister. Will he undertake to give that informa tion in the House before the session ends? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think that I can provide the information that this House is entitled to, but I cannot go beyond that, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the other day the Honourable the Member for Riel and the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, I believe, had asked a couple of questions with respect to Lake Winnipeg levels and the installation in 1973 of a temporary impoundment. I undertook to run a second check on that and the information I have is as follows: With respect to whether or not a permit was applied for and granted under the appropriate or relevant Act, the answer is yes.

Manitoba Hydro received rights, the permit was granted under the Navigable Waters Act, which is Federal, to construct temporary control structures at the outlet of Kiskittogisu Lake and in the Kisipachewuk Channel and the Ominiwin Channel. With respect to the second question, whether the cofferdams or impoundments were removed, I indicated they were; I confirm that these impoundments were installed in the late spring of 1973 to protect against potential low levels that were obtaining at that time and to attempt to optimise the power situation, the hydro electric energy system over the winter of 1973-74.

These impoundments were removed by the end of open water season, October and November, to the extent which was necessary to insure no effect on Lake Winnipeg outflows. The differential water level as a result of the existence then of the impoundments is - I believe, as my colleague the Minister of Mines indicated - in the order of 3 inches.

I might indicate further that with that there was some improvement in the Kisipachewuk Channel - excavation was carried out last year, and a year ahead of schedule, I'm advised - as a result of which there is a modest improvement in the outflow capability of Lake Winnipeg in the order of 3-5, 000 cubic feet per second. But I emphasize, that is really of modest signifi cance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I thank the First Minister for the answer.

I wonder if the answer suggests that the impoundment was removed to the extent that - I think those were the words that he used - the extent that the flow was allowed to continue in the way that he suggested. Does that mean that part of the impoundment does remain? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the words that I used - which are the words I was pro vided with - are that they were removed to the extent that was necessary to insure no effect on

4064 May 29, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ..... outflows. And I might add just for further clarification, that the impoundment was removed except for the abutments, the abutments. Then what has to be taken into account as well, is that some of the rock constriction on the Kisipachewuk Channel was excavated last year, although it was not really in the plans to carry this out until this year, but it was done last year - and it has, I emphasize, a very modest beneficial effect because the outflow is enhanced to the extent of 3- 5, 000 cfs. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister is in a position to indicate whether there is a conflict within the Hydro engineering staff as to the exact extent that the remaining abutment impoundment and as to the exact extent in which it is affecting the flow out of Lake Winnipeg. MR. SCHREYER: Well I don't deduce that, Mr. Speaker, but I'd be quite happy to check that particular aspect once again and if there is doubt, to request that they err on the side of - in this case, err on the side of greater outflow. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, my question's directed to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service, the Minister of Labour. Is the government considering the possibility of pro viding Manitoba civil servants with a cost of living pay increase during the current period for the contract that was just negotiated, before it's concluded. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Yes, Mr. Speaker, the matter is under active consideration. If I may just be a little historical for second, Mr.

Speaker - following the unanimous decision of the Arbitration Board, there were certain dif ferences of opinion within the Civil Service as to the adequacy of that unanimous award, and it appeared as though the percentage increases granted as a result of that award were not in line with others.

Subsequently to that, a meeting was held with representatives of the Civil Service, the Manitoba Government Employees Association, the Premier and myself, ani:I during that discussion mention was made as to the possibility of Joint Council, which is established in accordance with the Civil Service Act, receiving a request from the employees for considera tion of the possible application of a cost of living bonus or call it whatever you will. At the Joint Council meeting held, I believe, Mr. Speaker, on May 9th, the Employees Association did forward a request for the consideration, which was documented.

And following that, I undertook as the Chairman of the Joint Council to forward the proposition to my col leagues in Cabinet and I can say, Mr. Speaker, that the matter is under consideration, although I'm sure that some will be disappointed that a firm decision has not been arrived at at this particular time. But I want to assure the House it's only due to the constraints upon us as Members of the Executive Council, who have been meeting over lunch hours, supper hours, and rather frequently. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

Has his department made any study of the need of the Civil Servants for an across-the-board increase bonus, or is it based strictly on the rising cost of living? MR. PAULLEY: I might say, Mr. Speaker, certain figures have been arrived at or formulated as to the relative cost of living now as against the time of the award. To that degree, my answer would be in the affirmative. MR. ASPER: Could the Minister indicate whether what is under consideration is an across-the-board bonus, as the Federal Government did with its civil servants, or is it a scale proposition, based on income and need? MR.

PA ULLEY: I think, Mr. Speaker, that the Honourable the Leader of the Liberal Party would agree that I'm not in a position to definitively answer a question of that nature. There has been some across-the-board increases in this respect in some jurisdictions and other approaches in others, and until a decision - first of all, if there should be or should not be, and then the application of any cost of living income. MR. ASPER: A final supplementary to the same Minister.

In view of the fact that this consideration comes only a matter of weeks after the final contract was reached settling, does this suggest to the Minister that the settlement reached with the civil servants was unjust and has to be supplemented? MR. PA ULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to my honourable friend, the Leader of the Liberal Party, that the Board of Arbitration did unanimously - and by unanimously, of course, included the appointee or the Manitoba Government Employees' Association, arrive at

May 29, 1974 4065 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ..... a formula and a percentage. So I don't know whether that fully answers my friend's question, but I'm sure he will appreciate the situation that we're in. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. Two days ago the Minister promised to advise whether or not the Co-op Livestock Organization had preferential treatment in hog quotas over private shippers. The question is, Mr. Speaker, can he advise the House as to his findings in this regard? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Again, Mr. Speaker, I took all of those questions as notice and I don't have a report back, but I would like to ask the honourable member whether he would indicate to me which co-operative organization he's referring to. MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I thought I indicated in my speech that the matter that I brought out was a discussion that was prevalent throughout the Swan River Valley, and the pri vate producers are uptight on the whole thing. Figure it out for yourself. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, unless the honourable member wants to give me the informa tion, it's pretty hard to get him �he answer. STANDING COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT - SUBSTITUTION MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, by leave I wish to move that a substitution be made in the Standing Committee on Economic Development, that of Mr. Patterson for my own name, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if we can now proceed to the adjourned debates on second reading, as they stand on the Order Paper. ORDERS OF THE DAY - GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance, Bill No. 64. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. (Stand) The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Labour, Bill No. 73. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. (Stand) The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation, Bill No. 76. The Honourable Member for Roblin. (Stand) The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance, Bill No. 77.

The Honourable M ember for Gladstone. The Honourable M ember for G ladstone wish his motion to stand? (Stand) The proposed motion of the Attorney-General, Bill No. 79. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. (Stand) The proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General, Bill No. 80. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. (Stand) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 67. The honourable minister is absent. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I suggest we then go to Concurrence. CONCURRENCE MR. SPEAKER: Resolutions 74-82 separately, collectively on Labour, pass? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I rise just for a few moments to deal with the particular matter that was brought to the attention of the House by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye and responded to by the Honourable House Leader. That relates to clause 68 (3) of the Labour Relations Act and a particular case in which for reasons of religious belief individuals asked for the application to be able to pay the amount now owing by law to the Union, to a charity.

This particular clause, a clause introduced really as a result of the efforts of a particu lar group who lobbied during the period of the presentation of this bill and who claimed a parti cular concern with respect to their own religious belief, and who asked for the adoption of a clause similar to that of Ontario which would give them the right and the ability to be able to pay

4066 May 29, 1974 CONCURRENCE (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) .. ... to a charity rather than to the union, with the application of the Rand Formula being applied in the Act, in the new Labour Relations Act. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the problem that I have and the answer that - the response at least, not the answer, that the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources gave, is a prob lem of suggesting that it follows logically that the religious belief of one group necessarily contains within it, or is limited to a position where it cannot have within it component parts which would have a conservative view, a more orthodox or fundamentalist point of view, a view which would be stricter than the other because, Mr.

Speaker, there isn't a religion that does not have within it, a range of belief or a range of intensity of belief, which would in its appli cation and attitude provide one to be stricter than the next. And the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources is one whose religion he is aware of and who knows that within it, it contains orthodox, reform, and conservative points of view, and even in that respect there are other particular stripes. And I say that, because I think it's important in recognition as to the

interpretation of the question of his religious beliefs. The religious beliefs of the individual are his own. The fact that he belongs to a religion, and that religion would contain a range of in:tensity with respect to his belief that would allow for some flexibility with respect to an approach - even to the approach of whether union dues should be paid or not, or whether one should belong to the union or not, is something that would recognize the diversity that exists within religion, the diversity that will exist within our society here.

And my concern for what the honourable minister has said, is my concern for what has happened before the Manitoba Labour Relations Board, because my understanding of it is the

interpretation of this

section in the cases that have been presented, there has not been yet a recognition which will allow an exemption under this section- and I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong on this, but that's my understanding - which would recognize someone's religious beliefs and would allow the person the exemption that this particular

section was supposed to give. As a matter of fact, and I'm not sure of how many applications have been made, but in five applications that I'm aware of the applications that have been made have been refused to have been accepted by the Labour Board without written or oral reasons given, and it seems to - in the way in which they have interpreted this particular section, they seem to have applied the kind of reasoning that the Minister of Labour suggested was the kind of

interpretation that he has from this particular

section - which is his own - but I'm suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that -- (Interjection)-- I said that is his own. MR. GREEN: I think the honourable member would want me to correct him. He was I think speaking of myself, the Minister of Mines, and he said the Minister of Labour. MR. SPIVAK: I meant the Minister of Mines. But what I'm suggesting is, that the Labour Board in its judgments have seemed to exercise the same kind of position - and I'm not sure, Mr. Speaker, that that position is the correct one.

And I think a question can be raised and my purpose only for a few moments is to raise the question, that with respect to one's religious beliefs, one's religious beliefs are one's own; and the fact that one belongs to a reli gious group does not necessarily follow that it has to be the doctrine of the religious group per se that is the deciding factor as to whether one's religious beliefs would justify the action.

Because as I've indicated with respect to the Me nnonite religion, with respect to the Jewish religion, with respect to the--( Interjection)--well, not with respect so much to the Plymouth Brethren, but with respect to those two as an example, there are orthodox, conservative and reform views, and it is quite possible within the framework of that religion to have people whose religious beliefs would allow them within the framework of the over-all religion that they have identified themselves with, to allow them to in fact pay the check-off and not to feel intent ly about the joining of a union or paying dues to a union.

So it would seem to me that the honourable minister is wrong in his

interpretation, that it really is one person's religious be lief that has to be determined; that the Labour Relations Board in the applications it has made have not really adhered to the intent and meaning of this section; and that the Honourable Member from La Verendrye, in bringing up the particular case, has brought to the attention of this House a matter that is serious, and a matter that requires, I would think, some study by the government and by the members opposite as well, in assessing how and in what way this particular

section has been handled by the Labour Relations Board. And it would seem to me that one of the requirements at this particular time would be for the ability of the board, in writing or verbally, to give its reasons with respect to these matters. They don't have to, but

May 29, 1974 4067 CONCURRENCE (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... they can. But it would seem to me that it's important that they do. And I suggest, Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding, they have not in the past, and I think it's important only because it will clarify the position, because if the position, Mr. Speaker, is the position of the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, then I think an amend ment has to be brought to this Act. If the position is not, then I think-- (Interjection) --Yes, then I think a question can be raised with respect to the

interpretation that's being given to the Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: ... would agree to a question, I think. Would he not agree that if the

interpretation is other than the one that I have put, that any individual of any faith, or of no faith, the one who said that he was unprincipled--( Interjection)-- Well, okay, let us stick to religion because I think that's what the

section said. But any person could say that "I interpret my faith and my religion as meaning that I should not belong to trade unions. " Is not that the only alternative to the position that I took? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, the Act specifically says, ''by reason of his religious beliefs" and it's quite possible, and that was the point I think the Honourable Member from Point Douglas referred to, he does not have to belong to a sect to have a particular religious belief, and his religious belief is that of his own. It's that of his own. But the problem here, Mr. Speaker, the problem is that if the

interpretation is the

interpretation of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, then I think there he has a further clarification that's required with respect to this Act. -- (Interjection) --W ell, no, I think that there is a determination that has to be made by the Labour Board with respect to a person's religious belief based on the individual who is in front of them. And, Mr. Speaker, the problem that I have at this point in dealing with this, is that there is no way in which a judgment can be made as to how this parti cular

section has been acted on by the Labour Board, and the kind of complaint that the Honourable Member from La Verendrye brought to the attention of the House is a complaint that has to be answered. And so, Mr. Speaker, I would hope that as a result of this debate that there should be, there should be a written presentation by the Labour Board to be able to establish its position so that we are in a position to interpret it and to know whether this

section is being followed or not; and if that

interpretation is one that causes difficulty, then we deal with it.

And I would hope that by the time we reached the session next year-- (Interjection)--yeah, well, the honour able member may want to get rid of it, but I would hope, because I would suspect that there will be other applications before the Labour Board in connection with this, that we will have some interpretative law, and that's all I would suggest, would come from the Labour Relations Board dealing with this--interpretative law which would give us an opportunity to understand the thinking rather than the judgment, which at this point seems to be in favour of no person having a--well, no one so far, no applicant at this point having a religious belief that would exempt him from or would have this particular

section apply to him. And so I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that we will have this opportunity to review it, and I think that the Honourable Member for La Verendrye has made a contribution in drawing this to the attention of the House and to the Minister of Labour and to the government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, there are one or two points--! didn't hear all of the Minister of Mines and Resources' comments on this particular subject when it was raised this morning. I had to leave and missed about the last five minutes of his remarks.

But he said enough at that point to cause me to rise at this point, and to draw atten tion to what I thought was some anomalies in his argument. First of all, he continued to use the word "violence" in referring to comments that were made by the Member for La Verendrye in connection with the stated beliefs of the Mennonite Church, and he said that they don't believe in violence. It wasn't "violence", that was the word he was using, and I will read the

section or the particular reference to it. It simply says: "The principle of non-resistance. " That is, the teaching that you would not use force to gain rights or benefit for yourself. And I think there, Sir, is a considerable difference between the use of force and the use of violence in the context that the Minister was attempting to use it, because he tried to put on, it appeared to me, the worst possible

interpretation of the member's

4068 May 29, 1974 CONCURRENCE (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) ..... remarks that he possibly could, to imply that the use of violence was a very commonplace thing in these matters. And the second point he made was that people who do not wish to belong to a labour union are somehow or other doing a disservice or contributing to the disruption, destruction or the ruination of the labour movement. And I don't for a moment believe that, Sir, because there is in the Province of Ontario various shades of opinion, and indeed there is in this province, various shades of opinion of support to labour unions.

Some people may choose to belong to a particular union because of the philosophy that they have towards negotiations with the various companies that they deal with; others may want to take a more moderate attitude, and others may want to take a very conciliatory attitude.

Now, surely within the ranks of the labour move ment there are all those shades of beliefs, and it would seem to me that there is really nothing wrong with two unions, one adopting one shade of opinion respecting negotiations with manage ment, and another one adopting another approach to negotiations with management; and that workers within the same plant could belong to one or the other of those two unions. Now that, in effect, is what happens in the Province of Ontario.

The Christian Labour Movement, for example, represent one shade of opinion in labour management relations that attract a large number of people, and I understand they have something like over a hundred contracts in force in Ontario simply because the members who choose to belong to those unions have a different attitude; not nearly as militant as many of the unions, and that gives them an opportunity to belong to a union that more clearly expresses their point of view with regard to negotiations with management. That is not provided for in our legislation. Another

interpretation that the Minister seems to be placing on the particular legislation that we have before us now, is that unless the religion, the particular religion that is involved, clearly expresses--now I'm not saying that it's the Minister's opinion alone; it's the Labour Board that really has that

interpretation. The Minister was just voicing it here this morning- but unless that particular religion clearly expresses in their statement of religious beliefs that they're opposed to unions, then any person who may have that feeling, their sentiments are not acceptable unless it's contained in the statement of religious beliefs. Well, there are many things that are contained within religious beliefs that are not incorporated in statements, but they don't pass bills as we do in this House, that clearly defines what state of opinion the per son will have in the way of a religious belief.

And surely, if it is an individual belief on the part of the person concerned, that surely can be accepted as a statement of principle on the part of that person. They can have the choice of either belonging to a union that more clearly or more closely represents his thinking, or he can have the alternative, if he chooses not to belong to a union at all, to have his union dues deducted and sent to an organization or a charity that he believes is one that will use his contribution in a way that is more acceptable to that person rather than to the union body. It seems to me that the

interpretation that the Labour Board is placing on this particular clause of the legislation is that, come hell or high water, they're going to get as much money for that particular union as possible, and I am convinced that the underlying motive behind this whole thing is to enrich the coffers of that union more than anything else, and for that reason I object very strongly to the attitude of the Labour Board in refusing these two people from having their union dues deducted and sent to a charitable organization or an organization that they feel more clearly and more closely represents what they believe in.

I don't think it's up to the Labour Board to determine what those persons' religious beliefs are, and they are abusing, in my opinion, the terms of the legislation that is set out before them simply for the benefit of the labour bosses who are obviously dictating to them. I resent very much, Sir, the attitude that is taken by the Board in attempting to use this

section of the Act as a means of diverting money into the coffers of the labour unions that need not go there, or shouldn't go there, because it should be at the expressed wish of the person involved, not the Labour Board, as to what that money's going to be used for. If a person chooses to belong to a union, that's fine. I would agree with the Minister of Labour when he said that we should remove all restrictions. That more closely follows my thinking than anything else that's been expressed in this Chamber. MR. GREEN: The honourable member would again want me to correct him as would the Minister of Labour.

The Minister of Labour doesn't share my view nor the honourable member's views in this connection. He referred to the Minister of Labour. It's the Minister of Mines that he . . .

May 29, 1974 4069 CONCURRENCE MR. JORGENSON: I meant the Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. PA ULLEY: That is my .... opportunity taken . . . . there are differences of opinion on the grievance. MR. JORGENSON: Well, that need not have been stated by the Minister of Labour because that becomes very obvious from time to time. But, as I said, I more closely follow the think ing of the Minister of Mines and Resources that the removal of all restrictions would perhaps be the best solution to the whole problem.

The restrictions that are imposed lead to abuses; the abuses lead to difficulties; and indeed the rapid escalation of inflation in this country can in no small measure - and I don't say that it's the entire cause of it - but it in no small measure can be attributed to the compulsory features that are inherent in much of our labour legislation today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines wish to ask a question? MR. GREEN: I believe I am permitted a clarification, Sir, with regard to remarks that the honourable member attributed to me. This was with relation to .... Mr. Speaker.

He said that I had referred to--there were two questions, one was the use of force and the second had to do with--I can't now recall it--the second clause of the religion that was being referred to, the second facet of it. Well, Mr. Speaker, having forgotten it, I guess I can't get clarifi cation. (Laughter) I would ask the honourable member this question, Mr. Speaker. Would he not agree that when the bill was brought before the Legislature, that I indicated that I was worried about the

interpretation that he is now advancing being accepted, and I said that I did not agree with that; and that the alternative, the alternative, and that is what the Honourable Member for Morris is suggesting, would mean that every person would have a right to come before the Labour Board and express his own belief that he doesn't believe in unions and there fore the money would have to go somewhere else, which is what I indicated what I thought would happen.

And secondly, would he also agree that under a non-restrictive situation that a closed shop agreement between employer and management would result in those people not being able to work there if they did not join the union under a non-restricted situation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR.

JORGENSON: Being in the Industrial Relations Committee when this matter was being dealt with, I am not in a position to comment on what the Minister's statement was during the course of the passage of this particular clause in the legislation, but I will agree with him that under a closed-shop arrangement this could precisely happen, and this is one of the con cerns that I expressed; that the kind of power that can be wielded by union bosses over the individual has created and will continue to create considerable problems for those people who want to work and yet may not adopt a particular philosophy or approach to management adopted by many of the labour unions today.

And I think that a freer attitude with respect to unions will remove many of the difficulties that we're being faced with. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. HARVEY PATTERSON (Crescentw ood): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The debate on Concurrence of the Labour Department has taken quite a strange twist, and we start off into an area that we hadn't touched on previously. The philosophy of belonging to a union or having unions operate within our society seems to have encountered some resistance, and I would think that the time of that philosophy is long past.

I think unions have become a part of our society. I think they have become acceptable in our society, and I think they're operating rela tively well within the framework of our laws and regulations, what have you. I just might say that the Honourable Minister of Mines and I don't see eye to eye on all of the things that he proposes about labour laws and that. I'm probably more in line with what the Honourable Minister of Labour thinks in this area. But each man to his own opinion, and I respect that. Union membership. I can't see the argument over union membership.

It doesn't seem to me to be too much out of line with having a membership in a Chamber of Commerce or a Manufacturing Association or some Management oriented organization. I would think that union membership is quite valid and quite necessary in our highly industrialized society of today and it's about the only form that I know of where the workers can receive some small measure of justice in the work place. Touching on the paying of union dues. I have never had any conscience problem in paying

4070 May 29, 1974 CONCURRENCE (MR. PATTERSON cont'd) ..... for services that I receive, whether it be by way of union dues, by way of taxes or whatever; and I think that it's only right in a democratic society that the people receiving the benefits from whatever source should have some obligation to pay for those services. There was mention by the Honourable Member from La Verendrye, I believe it was about the Mennonite people in paying of union dues. That I don't think we can single out the Mennonite people alone.

I would say that there's as many Scotsmen, there's as many Englishmen, as many Irishmen that object to paying union dues as much as what the Mennonite people do. I work with some boys of Mennonite faith and let me tell you they don't object to paying union dues; they're very proud to be union members and they're very good union members and they serve on our executive, they serve on our committees.

I served in the army with some Mennonite boys and they were the finest soldiers that anybody could want, but yet, there was always the other side of the coin that left some impression with the public that the Mennonite boys were all Conscientious Objectors, they didn't want to bear arms, they stayed home and there was a tendency to call them Zombies. But that wasn't only the Mennonite boys that were iri that class, so we can't put the Mennonite population in a basket by themselves and say they're this or they're that because they're not.

We'll find varying degrees of opinion and thoughts in any segment of society. The honourable members opposite tried to leave the impression that unions are a violent group of people, that we always want to tear down the management structure, destroy society, punch the boss out and all the rest of it. That type of philosophy . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): I ask the honourable member to withdraw those remarks, no such allegations were sent across in this debate. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member doesn't have a point of order.

The honourable member is expressing an opinion of his own. He's entitled to it. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. PATTERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think the record will show that this is what I said. It was my impression that what the opposite member was saying, that this is what I took from their remarks. And I can advise the honourable members opposite that the vast majority of the unions, if not all, are good outstanding law abiding citizens and they are not prone to violence.

They are well within the laws of any segment or any province, whatever you want to take it, and they are not to be even insinuated as being violent, but the unions have a tendency to be called that from time to time and I object to that very much because it's just not true. In regard to the paying of union dues for those people who supposedly object to paying union dues because of something inside ... I wonder if there's ever been any applications received by anybody that they donate the pay increase that the union got them to some charity, I wonder if that's ever happened.

I wonder if the Honourable Minister of Labour has ever had an application that the union got them a 15 cent increase through collective bargaining, that they have an application they don't want the 15 cents because it came from collective bargaining, therefore they would request that it go to the Health Sciences Centre in aid of cancer or some thing similar.

But the paying of union dues to me is -t he objection to it is strictly a red herring and I don't have much sympathy with anybody who tries to get out of paying his fair share of operating and maintaining the organization that he belongs to, regardless of what the organiza tion is, whether it be management organization, union organization, Red Cross or whatever. The Honourable Member for Morris left the implication in my opinion that unions were rich - that we had a lot of money. Well I just wish that that were true. I just wish that the unions did have a lot of money, that the unions were rich.

We usually find that the union hasn't got enough money to put on proper staff, to properly educate the unionists, to properly organize the unionists and probably this is one of the reasons why we have such a low percentage of organized labour in Manitoba, is because the union movement in Manitoba just can't afford to go out and organize the unorganized the way it should be done. So I would certainly not agree with that assumption that the unions are rich. It was intimated to me that the Labour Board of Manitoba is being operated or manipulated by those big labour bosses.

Once again I wouldn't have too much objection if that were the case, anything that I hear about the Labour Board is usually just the opposite, the labour bosses are

May 29, 1974 4071 CONCURRENCE (MR. PATTERSON cont'd) ..... complaining that the Labour Board is not fair to them, the Labour Board's too tough on them, the Labour Board is too management oriented. So where the members opposite get their news from and indications from I don't know, and I'm sure that the Honourable Minister of Labour gets the same type of complaints that I get about the Labour Board. Well he says he gets it from both sides.

Well I know that the union boys that I associate with, they are always telling me to get down there and see that Honourable Minister of Labour and tell him to democratize that Labour Board a little better in order that the Labour Board can get a little better hearing out of it, because it just doesn't seem to be working all that favourable toward labour.

But how they can twist a matter of somebody conscientiously objecting to paying union dues into all of these other fields in the labour movement is just hard to realize, that when you're sitting here listening to it, it's hard to believe because really the point in the argument got away off track and into other areas that weren't of any real concern on the point under dis cussi on.

But just while I'm talking on this particular department, I had intended to do so before but the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell is not here today and I wasn't going to take the opportunity to comment on what he had said one day last week when he was speaking on the Executive Council I believe and he got off into the field of labour.

He was checked up on it by the Speaker at the time but somehow he manipulated his way around and got into the labour field and he indicated to the House that the leadership of this government, or the leadership of the NDP Party is not within the NDP Party, it's not within the government, it's from the Union Centre and the name of Len Stevens was mentioned, that great big international unionist that comes down into the NDP Party with a club and puts them all into place.

Well I'm sure that the honourable members opposite, some of them possibly know Len Stevens, and Len Stevens is no more American or some person from outside of Canada than what they are. He's as much a Canadian as anyone of the members opposite. Len Stevens is a very commendable person, he's usually very mild mannered and easyto get along with and he certainly doesn't fit the image that the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell was trying to tag onto him, that he was the big labour boss with the big stick and could just whip this NDP Party around and make them do whatever they wished.

Sometimes we in the labour movement might sympathize with what the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell was saying and hoping that some of the things he was saying were true, that we could get their ear a little better and a little more often sometimes, because some of the things that do happen we don't always agree with in the Party but nevertheless that's the way democracy works. But I just wanted the members opposite to know that Len Stevens wasn't the big bad guy that he had been painted to be because he's a first class citizen of Winnipeg.

He's a first clas s trade unionist and I'm sure that the leadership of this party is within the party, the leadership of this government is within the government and as far as I've been able to determine there's only one leader of this party and he sits right down there in that front row, and I've indicated that previously and anybody that thinks any different just doesn't know the operation of this party.

And I just might say that the honourable members opposite probably would like to have our leader on their side of the House but they probably haven't got the right type of philosophy to persuade him to go over there and accompany you in your political endeavours so we'll certainly only be too happy to keep our leader on our side of the House. But I just wanted to make clear that he is the leader, not anybody else, whoever he might be, whether he be a big international unionist or whatever. The leader of the party is right there and I just want you to remember that and we'll be happy if you do so. MR.

SPEAKER: Res olutions 74 to 82 collectively and separately. Passed. MR. PA ULLEY: Mr. Speaker, would you call Northern Affairs Resolutions? MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $11, 962, 800 for Northern Affairs. Passed. MR. PAULLEY: Call the Resolutions on Public Works. MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty $16, 547, 300 for Public Works. Resolutions 104 to 108. Passed. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13, 597, 000 for Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. Resolutions 109 to 117 separately, collectively. Passed.

4072 May 29, 1974 CONCURRENCE MR. McKEN ZIE: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKEN ZIE: Mr. Speaker, during the course of the review of the Estimates we didn't have any time to deal with the estimates in our some 80 hours of debate and there are certain matters that I think should be maybe raised at this time.

Of course I shall not go back and deal with the Lotteries Bill which we dealt with this morning at legislation, it's now his tory, and express our concern about the manner in which the concept of the Manitoba Golden West Lotteries, and of course there's certain criticisms that could be raised. But, Mr.

Speaker, I do raise some concerns at this moment of the enlargement of the number of employees that are now working in this department and I went through some figures that rather concerned me, where the temporary employees, and maybe these are ones that work in the parks in the sum mer whereby in three years it's raised from 530 to some 1, 157 employees. And the other one, of course, was the enlargement of the boards and commissions that are now functioning within the Department and the many offices that's involved in the Department in the City.

Some of these are certainly lengthy and of course we haven't got time to deal with them at this time. But I think, Mr. Speaker, regarding the Estimates of the Department that the government should maybe concern themselves with more promotion and more advertising matter to promote more tourism in the Province of Manitoba, because under our present tax structure the government gains as much revenue from tourist dollars as does the tourist industry.

I think if we look at the amount of gain that the province gains from the tax dollars on energy fuel, some 17, 19 cents per gallon, they gain on the sales tax, and the figures that I have at my disposal, Mr. Speaker, estimates that some $120 million this past year was gener ated from the tourism and of that a large portion of it ends up in the coffers of government.

Many of the service industries and local tourist operators have been expressing concern to me that up to now the government has expected them to do all the leg work on sort of a volun teer basis to promote the industry but the benefits end up in the coffers of the province. So I would say that the tourist operators and the service industries in our province feel that the department and government should provide them with more guidance and more leadership as they meet the challenges of this tremendously fast growing industry in our province.

I'm told by many of the operators that their operations are marginal and there's little profit in it for them; they're told to go out and do a good job to promote the industry but the province is the one that ends up with the largest amount of revenue from the industry. The indication from the Tourist Convention Association of Manitoba that came across my desk indicate that they're very unhappy with the present system and that they continually pro mote the industry and the government collects the dollars.

So I would suggest to the Honourable Minister that it is one of the fastest growing industries that we have in our province; it's got a great future and we have only I think to work closer with the service industry people and with the tourist promoters much more than we have been and give them the direction that govern ment can work with them and to plan for the next 10 years, or the next 20 years, or the next 25 years, it's not something that can be set up and designed for tomorrow because of the amount of investments that go into it. And of course, Mr.

Speaker, it's well known to all members of the Legislature that if the energy shortage in the United States continues, that the American tourists are going to spend more and longer periods of time in Manitoba this year and as long as that crisis is with us, and I think that my prediction would be in listening to a lot of the experts that we're definitely going to have a big tourist year in Man itoba this year if the weather would give us a break and co-operate. Figures that I have come across, Mr.

Speaker, indicate that we had I believe well over a million, almost 1. 2 million American tourists that entered our province last year. While it's maybe down slightly from the year before, it still indicates that a tremendous amount of people are coming into this province from our American neighbours to the south.

And in checking out the amount of dollars that the department has spent in the United States to promote that industry, I find that they've cut back from what their original concept of a couple of years ago, when I believe the industry spent, or the department spent some $35 0, 000 advertising the wonderful things about Manitoba in our American places of advertising. But for some unknown reason it was cut back.

I just came back last weekend from having attended a conference in the mid-west of the United States, and found there - we were phoning this USA and Canada Highway Three Assoc iation - that there's going to be a great deal of interest from

May 29, 1974 4073 CONCURRENCE (MR . McKEN ZIE cont'd) ..... people that have never been in Canada before from our American friends, and they are genuinely interested and they're wondering if there isn't some way that we can work closer together with them. They suggested that if we have film strips or little tapes that they could play on the radio stations along the way, that it would certainly be helpful to tell the people that when they do travel north of some of the things that they're going to get. And by the way, while I was down there some of our American friends provided us with some tapes.

I think they're very inexpensive - and one was left with Brandon radio to promote Highway 83 - and the American Tourist Industry, I think that they have for us down there - and the other one I left with Dauphin radio station. So I'm sure that maybe the Minister can take a look at - they're simple and they're cassette form and very inexpensive to prepare. Mr. Speaker, my notes are rather in a jumbled sort of form and I had them lined up a long time ago for the Minister's Estimates.

There's one matter of concern that came to me well, it just come across my desk - that one of the costume people that sells in the city - costumes - and maybe the other Minister was dealing with it; that they are in the costume busi ness, and some of the theatrical people in the city put on big sales of costumes last year and created many problems for their industry. And maybe I could send the letter over to the Minister and he could take a look at it, and maybe if in future it does come up again we'll may be understand the problem there. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would say that the tourist industry (you can take that over to the Minister) - the tourist industry from our American friends and Canadians that are going to holiday in Manitoba this year, I think, will be up maybe 10 percent over last year, I'm sure. We're expecting great increases again and Manitoba should gain a lot of tax dollars from the industry.

So I would ask that the Minister possibly give the small operators, the service indus tries and the tourist promoters better co-operation or work closer with them, and give them some guidelines for at least 10 to 15 years ahead so that they know where we're going and they know how they can work with government to continue to build upon this very thriving industry that we have in Manitoba today and one that has a great future. The need for additional parks in our province, Mr. Speaker, has been drawn to my attention.

I'm sure members on - well, all the members of the Legislature are familiar with some of the letters that have come across and people that have been speaking to us about the possibilities that exist at this time; and whether it should be the Federal Government that should involve themselves with the need for a couple more additional parks in Manitoba; or whether the province, or whether they should work jointly, I'm not prepared to say. But I would say, Mr. Speaker, that Manitoba has the land, and the matter deserves attention at an early date, I think, before other developments would maybe change the style.

I understand that the Federal Government spending programs add up to some 25 billion dollars across Canada for the development of parks, and I would say that maybe the province should maybe join the feds on the one park maybe, and that the province build the other one. The two of course that I'm thinking about are the area east of Lake Winnipeg in the Precambrian Shield area which strikes out from the east shores of Lake Winnipeg to the Ontario border; and then the other, the southern boundary from the most southern tip of the Whiteshell to the northern regions of Lake Winnipeg and Hudson Bay.

The area to me and to those that have expressed interest suggests that it is an excellent tourist potential and one that deserves the attention of government. I understand that if in fact that the government, or at either level is interested that there is certainly much work to be done in that area. And of course the first thing that we need is some roads in there to let, as a pilot project, for people to go in there and take a look at it and see if it has all the potential. I haven't explored it myself personally. But those that I have talked to who have been there tell me that it has great potential.

The second park area I think that needs attention of the province and the Members of the Legislature of course, is the north-western Manitoba area, the Pukatawagan area, where a park in there I think would likely link up the communities of The Pas, the Cranberry Portage area of Snow Lake, Flin Flon, Thompson, plus many of the other smaller communities there.

And the park provides a very natural area for the tourists that would come up on Highway 83 and Highway 6 and Highway 10, those highways lead right into the area; and it's a natural, and one that I would suggest the Minister study and maybe take a look at and move as quickly as he could because I'm sure most people today recognize the need at this time to further develop the park system in our province.

4074 May 29, 1974 CONCURRENCE (MR. McKEN ZIE cont'

d) Mr. Speaker, let's deal then basically and quickly with the sports field, which is part of the estimates of the department. I have had some concerns expressed to me that maybe the government - of the violence that we find in hockey today where the case is on in Ontario now - I've had concerns expressed to me whether government should get involved and urge the sports people to try and tighten up the regulations or the way that the games are held - is one that maybe the Minister would consider and take a look at, and maybe he has already, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, this year of course in 1974, the Canadian Special Olympics for Mentally Retarded people are to be held in this province. I think they're slated for June 13th, the 16th and I'm rather unhappy that I have not seen any advertising programs much and I don't know whether the Minister is responsible. I think it's sponsored by the Canadian Association of the Mentally Retarded people. But I was wondering if maybe the Minister shares my concerns in that, that if in fact it is a Canadian Special Olympic, that even at this late date we could pro mote it and give it a little push in the advertising field.

I'm also familiar, Mr. Speaker, with the Canada Summer Games which are slated for this province in 1976, and then I think every second year it goes from summer to winter, 1978 the Manitoba Winter Games will be held somewhere in this province. And I wonder if the Minister would give us some insight in his replies to where he contemplates to hold the Summer Games and the Winter Games. Is it to be urban one year, rural the other, or how he plans it? It's a very ambitious undertaking, I congratulate the department and the Minister for moving it.

But I think that the success of it will depend on the joint efforts of a lot of people. So I'm wondering if the Minister could maybe advise if he's set up some board to guide us for those Summer Games and the Winter Games, or we maybe could give it some insight as to where we're going in that field. I would also, Mr.

Speaker, like to suggest to the honourable minister that maybe some time we could set up a committee of the House to go around this province to check some of the sports facilities that are - there's a lot of money being spent on sports, through the moneys that are being granted by the government to the various communities of our province and these moneys, I think in everybody's estimation, are well spent.

But in the meantime I think, to co- ordinate our efforts so at least we're all going in the same direction, that it would be advisable for maybe a committee of the members of the House to go around and take a look at the facilities, see how the money is being spent, talk to some of the recreational directors on the field, and talk possibly with some of the physical education instructors in the various com munities and see if we're all going in the same direction, that the efforts are co-ordina ted and that the moneys are not being wasted.

I think we could check the coaches; we're talking of track and field and the future of track and field for these games that's coming up, Winter and Summer Games, if the facilities and the coaching are adequate so these athletes will be able to compete on a national level. So I would say that it's a large undertaking for us in this pro vince, but it has a great future, and it's one that I support and it's one that the members of our caucus supports, Mr. Speaker. Manitoba, of course, I understand also, Mr.

Speaker, will be staging the World Gymnastic Championships in the year 1978 - and while I'm not familiar, I believe it's 50 per cent federal and 25 percent Winnipeg and 25 percent Manitoba for funding it. And I'm wonder ing, that's only four years away, if the Minister could give us any idea if the programs that's being urged or offered to the young athletes of this province, especially those that are interested in gymnastics, so that when we do arrive at the world level, that some of our Manitoba athletes will be able to compete. I'm not that familiar with gymnastics.

I have watched the - especially the Russians perform on television on occasion, and it's a sport that certainly has great interest to me. But I recognize as well, Mr. Speaker, you must begin a very energetic training program and it's one that goes along for a long time. But I would sug gest that maybe if we start a program now of that nature that we would have some athletes that are ready to compete in the year of '7 8. I'm wondering, Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister maybe could reply as to how he's getting along with the provisional master plan for the Duck Mountain Provincial Park that was presen ted to us a couple of years ago, and it's now being implemented - if he's had some problems with the area, the development of the lodge was one that I questioned him during this session. There has been concerns expressed to me by people, local people in the area that they haven't

May 29 , 1974 4075 CONCURRENC E (MR . McKENZIE cont'd) ... been able to get lots after having applications in for a couple of years - and I think I gave one to the Honourable Minister the other day to cite an example . The other one that was drawn to my attention , I' m sure it 's one that's in most of our parks in the province and a difficult one to resolve is, where people that live in the area ad jac ent to the park come in and they feel that their trailer should sit there all year long , and I don't support that .

But I noticed last year in the area of the Blue Lake in the Duck Mountain s, there was some 30 trailer sites available and the staff there were only allowing some 12 , there was 18 unoccu pied, and then they finally raised it to 16 . But even still , if the facility was there and they were phasing it out we should have destroyed the area or tore it up some way , - not to let the people see that there was the trailer sites vacant and they couldn 't be used . So it did create a lot of concern in that local area . Mr .

Speaker, I also would hope that the Honourable Minister would give me some idea how he co -operates with the Minister of Transport ation , the Minister of Highways, to improve our transportation system for the tourist people . I' m concerned that the road , No . 1 Highway, which is our No. 1 artery to the east and west in this provinc e, has still not been upgraded to a two-lane standard beyond the area west of Portage there , while parts of it are now under construction , but we 're a long ways from having a two-lane highway to the border of our neig hbour Saskatchewan .

I' ve had a lot of criti cism , and maybe the Minister has, from the portion , you know, where you leave the Headingley scale on that old No . 1 Highway; that surely this province which is our No . 1 road , and I' m sure there's some federal money , that that eight or ten miles that goes to the As siniboine River on the lane that's on the north , should be brought up to a much better standard than it is at the present ti me. The culture and the libraries of our provinc e, Mr . Speaker, are one of the things that I think deserves some attention by the members of the Ass embly .

The lack of theatre space for our amateur theatre people is one that's ca using some problems for amateur theatre in our provinc e, especial ly in the city area . I think the Manitoba Theatre Centre was formed back in 1958, if my memory serves me correctly, and since that day the interest has been keen and it 's continued to grow at a very interesting rate .

And with all this growth amongst people that are interested in the theatrical world , they find that they 're taxed beyond their limits for space to perform the art .I understand that there's only two places available for the amateur theatre people in our provinc e, I believe that one is in the Planetarium Auditorium and the other is in the Winnipeg Art Gallery .

So I' m wondering if the Minister could advise the House if he's been meeting with these people , and hopefully we could find ways to provide them with theatrical spac e so they could continue to expand their interest in the arts and their promotion and practising of it . The cultural field one , Mr . Speaker, is one that has created some intere st. I was familiar with an

article which I saw recently in one of the editions of the city newspaper s, where a Mr. Burns from Great West Life had attended a conference on culture in the Ottawa area and the busi ness community are rather unhappy with the manner in which the Canada Council have been di stributing their grant moneys to the various cultural groups .

And apparently there has been some evidence of mismanagement or it hasn't gone to the right groups, and they have suggested the busine ss community , that they are prepared to donate considerable sums of money to the arts and the cultures of our people if they could get some liaison with the Canada Council .

Now I wonder if the Honourable Minister has met with these groups of businessmen and is familiar with their thinking, that they are prepared to offer certain sums of money , and maybe in co operation with the Canada Council -u p to now the busi ness support for the arts and the culture has been relatively small , which the Honourable Minister is quite familiar with . I also wonder if the Minister -I understand that there was a 25 or a 30 -page report of the arts prepared by the group headed by Mr . Burn s, and that might be of interest to us in the Chamber if we could maybe procure a copy .

I don't think it will be released until maybe July or some place in there . But I 'm rather concerned if the reason that the corporations have backed off is on account of the management of the Canada Council , and I don't say the Honour able Minister has sat down with the people of the Canada Council or not , but maybe he could advise me when he does reply . But I think I could safely announce today, Mr . Speaker , to the Honourable Minister , that the busi ness community is ready to step in and if the Federal Government will rearrange its subs idi es, they will certainly be prepared to do their share.

4076 May 29 , 197 4 CONCURRENCE (MR . McKENZIE cont '

d) I would also suggest, Mr. Speaker, that we should possibly arrange for three or four communities in our rural areas and sections of our urban community to get together in an effort to preserve and document areas of historical sites, and the bill that the honourable minister presented in the House today is one that does create some interest in that, no doubt. I can see that they have been doing considerable study . Manitoba now is 100 years old . Winnipeg this year is lOO years old .

So I think it's time that we became very serious in pre serving some of our heritage and the archeological investigations of our province and what they've released, and start putting them away for the future. It's not too many years ago, Mr. Speaker, that we find our school system changed from the old one-room school to the divisional system, and I recall the struggle it was to find, even today, some of the school registers from those schools at that time, and that was a tremendous amount of history of the rural communi ties, and apparently a great deal of it has just disappeared .

So I think that we possibly, through the legislation and more direction to the people that are in the archeological field, the museum field, can encourage them more than we have to go out and save these artifacts and start preparing our history . Again, I'll speak very briefly on the concerns that's been expressed to me and other members from the Dauphin area regarding - I don' t know where this rumour came from, that they were phasing out the Parkland Library System, but it was a rumour that got spread around all through that general area out there and I' ve had dozens of letters expressing great concern .

I have checke d into it and I believe it was some of the employees in the area that did start the rumour over, but it' s one--and I thanked the Honourable Minister of Highways the other day who did finally give me an answer and say that the system will not be phased out. It's one that there's a great interest in the area and a lot of people devoted to books and litera ture and that have been pretty up tight about it, so I hope that the Minister will continue to build upon the Parkland, which was a pilot project . It's been a good project; it's been well accepted .

They've had good people there to--this lady that came in from the Maritimes to set it up -I just can't recall her name -h as done an excellent job. And the literature is being well handled, especially the schools. I find great interest amongst the school students today who with the libraries in there are continually lugging books home to continue their education.

Mr , Speaker, those are basically the brief short remarks that I would like to offer at this time, and possibly next year we can devote more time to this department, which I think is a very important one and one that's going to continue to grow at a tremendous rate. The tourist industry, I'm sure, will maybe equal all the other, be as big an industry as we have in this province in the. next decade . Manitoba has a great potential for tourist people . We've got fresh water. We've got the four seasons. We've got so many things in our favour and it's an interesting place .

So I would urge the Minister to use all his skills and his talents in this department and staff to continue to promote what I consider to be one of the real booming in dustries and which has a great future in Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia . MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will take a few minutes to offer some remarks perhaps that the Minister would consider, because I feel if there was a time in Manitoba that the Minister can ever become a great hero , this is the time that he can in this department, because some of the other provinces have already undertaken programs in their provinces to stimulate this industry because of the gas shortage and the problems they have to cross the line; that the Province of Ontario had a program for the last several months and so do the Provbce of Alberta, to attract more tourists to their provinces.

I know that tourism on a national scale ranks as the second largest industry, Mr. Speaker, only next to grain. The potential of tourism and recreation has never been realized in this province to the extent that it can. And really, in the Province of Manitoba I believe it ranks somewhere fifth or sixth. So really the tourist and recreation industry can be developed in Manitoba to the point where it does take its rightful place and be one of the second largest industries.

Canadian foreign tourists last year spent a total of four billion dollars in Canada and some 400 , 00 0 jobs were created as a result of that expenditure last year, Mr. Speaker. As a result of that spending, Manitoba did not get its fair share and this is what I would like to bring to the Minister's attention, because we have the potential that can be developed in this province, and the Minister if he would only . . . and create the kind of atmosphere, the kind of policies that are necessary . I see the Minister is not even listening at the present time, but I hope he' ll take the time to read the remarks.

May 29 , 1974 4077 CONCURRENC E A ME MB ER : He's being interfered with . MR . PATRIC K: I feel that tourism has the potential , Mr . Speaker, in Manitoba to be one of the fastest-g rowing indus tries. People have more leisure time , more inclination to travel . The government would make tourist attractions more popular . They should make the tourist attractions more popular. W e should improve our historic si tes. We should have new attractions with broad appeal, develop historic si tes , and regional festivals and activities I think should be given consideratio n.

Leadership also must be provided to the private sector through planning activities, promotional efforts and public information . I think the first thing that the tourist asks is, what is there to see ? I believe Manitoba has many things to see . Our historic sit es . This is a city of great religious centres . I believe Manitoba has most fortunate historical information because Manitoba was the first settlement in the settlement of Western Canada . The history of the buffalo hunts in the 1840 s. The Red River carts. This is a very rich history as far as culture is concerned . What about the Lower Fort Garry , Mr.

Speaker? The government , I under stand , has poured millions into it and again is spending some money , and I believe the story must be told by way of advertising to our tourists and visito rs . In Manitoba there are many other festivals, regional festivals, and haven 't been promoted and exploited to the extent that they should be. I know that the government in the last three years have started to pay more attention as far as our regional festivals are concerned . So the Minister has many areas , many areas that he can promote the kind of tourism that could really make this provinc e jump with activit ie s.

The other point that the Minister may not be aware of and has not considered, the tourist industry is very labouring, intensive indu stry, and we can create many many jobs, not only during the summer for our young and universit y people, but permanent jobs. I know that even the winter carnival has not been exploited to the extent that it should be in this city . So whatla m trying to say to the Mi nister, this could be the fastest -growing industry. It has the potential to be the fastest-gr owing industry and all areas of Mani toba has a good potential for development of this indus try.

An d surely leadership must be provided by the government to the private sector as well, through promotions, through public information, and I believe that Manitobans should be encouraged to take a portion of their holidays and Canadians should be encouraged to take a portion of their holidays in Manitoba instead of travelling somewhere else or travelling across the line. I believe that 90 percent of the tourists that arrive in Mani toba, arrive by automobile , and this is another indication that this year we '11 perhaps have more tourists .

And I would like to hear from the Minister what kind of estimate has he got to indica te, to tell us the number of tourists that will be arr iving in Manitoba and the kind of spending that will be taking place in Manitoba in 197 4 . Surely the Minister has this type of information and this would be most inter esting . I know that only 50 percent of the tourists that arrive in Winnip eg stay . I believe the remainder of them travel to other parts of the province . And the most unfortunate part, Mr . Speaker, is that the tourists only spend so few days in the Province of Manitob a.

I understand from the records from his own department , I believe it's one or two days that the tourist spends in this provinc e, and either they're passi ng through or they take a look, and the key to the tourism in this province should be to convince the tourist about our historic sit es, about our lakes, and perhaps they can stay longer . And this is what the Minister has to do through proper promotion . As I say, it can take a proper place as an industry in our provinc e, but we need some promotion .

And really, I think if the Mi nister can give it the kind of a stimulant that's necessary, surely this can be one of the fastest-growing industr ies in our province. I know some points have been made by the Honourable Member for Roblin and he made some good poin ts , covered the estimates pretty well; we didn't have time to debate . But surely the point of establishing more parks is important . The Member for Portage la Prairie had a resolution on the Order Paper where the Federal Gover nment has committed money to develop another national park .in this province .

While I believe some five national parks are developed in Canada , and the other provinc es are going ahead with their pla ns, or developing their parks , in here we have been waiting for several years and are still waiting because we can't make a decision where the park should be developed . I believe that the Minister can make a decision , and it was suggested by some, I know it was suggested by some of our speakers, that perhaps a park should be developed in the triangle of The Pas - Flin Flon, in some of that area, and I think that we should go ahead with that park.

All that's required is the Minister and the government to make a commitment where the park should be located . I believe the Minister,

4078 May 29 , 1974 CONCURRENC E (MR . PATRICK cont'd) •.. the federal Mini ster , has indic ated the money is available and they want to go ahead with the development of this park . Now I don't know what is the hold -up and what is the delay . The other provinc es have taken advantage and are developing their parks . The second point that has been mentioned in this House on several occa sions is the establi shment of a wilderne ss park on the east side of Lake Winnip eg.

I believe that the province should proceed to establish a provinc ial park on that side, perhaps to protect the genuine wilderne ss recre!l.tion area , and from the information that came to my attention I unders tand that side of Lake Winnipeg is a beautiful area with great potential for tourist recreation . The lake has many sand beaches , and surely that's an area that the Minister can give cons ideration , and I hope he would give some indication to the Hous e, to the members of the House , what progress he has made .

I believe that there were many other groups that have suggested to the Minister that this would make a beautiful wildem ess park on that side and I cannot see why the government has not proceeded . I know that the Member for Rupertsland has made the same remarks when he was speaking .

I believe it was in the early part of the Throne Speech he made it one of the time s, and I indicated to him the same speeches have been taking place in this House for the last four or five years, and the same statements have been made, but we seem to get very little action or no action from the government in respect to development of a wilder ne ss park in that area . So I would hope that the Minister would give some , some consideration in respect to that area .

I know that we have some great regional attractions throughout the provinc e where many thousands of tourists do attend , and in fact they're just catching on and taking hold . For ins tance, just a week or so the Buffalo Bar-B-Q, Manitoba Buffalo Bar -B-Q that took place in the As sinib oia const ituency, was one of the, probably the largest attraction that they've had in As siniboia for many many years. I know such things as the Morris Stampede, the Altona Sunflower, and the North West Stampede in Swan River , many of these attractions have attracted many many people and many touri sts . So , Mr .

Speaker , I would like to hear from the Minister what his program is . The other point I would like to ask the Min ister , what is the plan to open more recr eational lots for lease to the public so they can--is there any plans by the government to open any new lakes ? There are many lakes in our province and at one time I believe one of the Ministers was advertising from the government 's side a province of 100 ,0 00 lakes, I believe .

I know there's quite a few lakes, and all I would ask him , to just open one or two, and surely he would create the kind of activity that the people would like to be able to lease a hundred feet of property , and I would like to say that the leases should not be extravagant or expensive so that we could make it pos sible for the people to be able to build their own cottages , which they have done in the past in the White shell . This has been the case . So I would like to know if the Mini ster has any intention of opening any new lakes or any new parks , and is he prepared to offer these lots for lease or not ?

What is the program ? Surely this is sort of an exciting department for the Min ister, really, and if he can only show some enthusiasm and really tell us what his plans are, I think that perhaps we would have much more enthusiasm for this department as well . So I will be able to hear, I' ll be glad to hear from the Minister what his plans ar e, Mr . Speaker. The other point that I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister, and that is in res pect to the high water in some of the lakes in the Whiteshell , and particularly , I will refer to one , is Falcon Lake .

I' m sure that he knows that perhaps anywhere from half a million to perhaps a million dollars' worth of damage has been done on the lake by high water . The information that I' m getting from the people that have been on that lake for some thirty years, that the water is the highest that it 's ever been in that period . And the reason the water is the highest is because we built a road along the south shore of the lake . There's a causeway . And we put in two little culverts for the water to escape through .Falcon Creek into Shoal Lake and into the Whiteshell -o r into the Lake of the Woods.

And it 's just not working . I mean, some of the people have told the engineers that it 's not going to work. We have a similar situation in Sturgeon Creek on Portage Avenue in St . James, where one of the old timers in Woodhaven told the engineers and told the contractor , he says , "Look you'll back up the water all the way back down Sturgeon Cr eek and it'll flow over Portage , while the As sinib oine will be empty." And the engin eer said, "No , it 's going to flow so many cubic feet per second and no problem ." And exactly what some of the oldtimers in Woodhaven told engineer s, exactly what happened .

On two occa sions this year, for two weeks on one occ asion the water did flow over Portage Avenue and just rec ently when we had the heavy rainfall again, Portage Avenue had to be blocked off

May 29, 1974 407 9 CONCURRENC E (MR . PATRICK cont'd) ... because the culverts and tl-.e bridge is not sufficient to take the water that is now draining into Sturgeon Cr eek. And we have the same situation in Falcon Lake . There is no need to have all those properties damaged if proper precautions would have been taken to let the water out, because there is facilit ie s, there's controls to let the water out to the lake and control the lake . So it concerns me very much , Mr . Speaker, when we didn 't have proper precautions taken and there was damage done to the extent it is .

And I know I have talked to the Mi nister on several occasio ns, in the House and privately , and he's undertaking to do something; but if there's no action taken, I will tell you that lake will not be utilized to the fullest extent this summer because the water will stay high as it is at the present ti me. It will not be able to drain through the small culverts that we have there . I would like the Minister to tell us what his estimates are in respect to the kind of money that will be spent by tourists in this provinc e. The other point that I would wish to deal with , Mr.

Speaker , is recr eation and physical fitness. I know that there has been considerable effort made in Ottawa by the Minister in Ottawa in respect to this area , and I would like to know what the Minist er's actions will be in respect to where we had studie s, very recent studie s, where both private and public have revealed dist urbing deficienc ies in our fit ness and particularly the programs that they have in our high schools at the present time . And I know that some schools have 15 minutes of a physical fitness program a day, and some have maybe once a week.

Surely this is an area that perhaps the Minister can take a look, because I feel such fitness is the responsi bilit y of the government at all levels, the family and the school . And surely if it means- -the studies have indicated it means less dollars spent by our Health Department if there are proper programs within our schools, and this is my feeling, that perhaps the Minister can take a look at . I know that we will have - the Manitoba Summer Games will be staged in 1976 , with some 30 , 000 athletes that may participat e.

I would like to know what kind of preparation has been undertaken to have these games and to have this sport competitions in our provinc e. I believe that we have to strengthen the organization of all Gports on a provinc e- wide bas is, Mr . Speaker . And who will partici pate, you know, what age group ? And I think that some planning has to be done at the present time , this is not something that we can wait till 1976 . I know when we had the Pan-Am Games in Ma nitoba and in Winni peg, there was a considerable amount of prepara tion .

So I would like to hear from the Minist er, you know, what provisions he's making on a provinc e- wide base for selection of athletes to represent, you know, to represent Manitoba . And the Canada Game s, I would also like to ask him what participation will there be by -w ill there be any kind of games in conjunction by the handicapped people , because as I' m sure that the Minister knows that one of the best rehabilitation programs that have been discovered to re habilitate our handicapped people.

I 'm sure he's familiar with the wheelchair programs that we had , The Pan-Am Games that we had here in 196 7, where we had for the first time in Canada wheelchair sports on an international basis where many countries participated . I know it was difficult to arrange that program . I was involved to a great extent because at that time I was chairman of the Canadian Parapalegic As sociation , and there was a lot of money required to put these games on .

But as a resu lt, a national organization for the handicapped people was formed in Canada , and as a result through grants and donations from people, were able to stage wheelchair games the first time on an international basis in Canada . And that took place here in Manito ba . So I wonder if there will be any participation by these people in the Manitoba Summer Game s, and perhaps there could be some program . So these are just a few points that I wish to bring to the Minister .

I know there are some other members that want to participat e, but I do hope that the Minister would conc ern himself to some extent as far as the health and physical fitne ss is concerned because I believe in every day work fills such a state of well being . It 's very important . It has great effects on the cost of the health program and surely the Minister ca n -i f he's not yet excited about his portfolio, I believe this is one that he should be excited because it's the kind that I think he can really do great things for this provinc e. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Point Douglas.

REV" DONALD MA LINOWSKI (P oint Douglas): Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Mr . Speaker , we 've spent most of our time in this House discussi ng the economic iss ues of this provinc e. The iss ue I want to discuss today concerns the ethics, morals, and values of our community . I' m going to talk about the movie s. I wish to speak today to you as a father of children , children

408 0 May 29 , 1974 CONCURRENC E (RE V. MA LINOWSKI cont'd) .. . whose welfare I am concerned about and I 'm sure many other parents must be today . I wish to speak to you as a member of this As sembly with a responsi bi lity towards the community to attempt to make our province somehow a better place to live , to raise our families and to create an atmosphere that encourages our citizens and our youth to become finer people. I speak as well on behalf of many concerned parents in the Point Douglas con stituency which I have the honour to represent .

I ask you, can the present exposure to that sort of films now playing in Manitoba really help in making this province a better plac e? I' m sure all honour able members are aware that movies shown today are not the kind we used to see when we started going to the movie s. In fact , most of the movies playing in Winn ipeg today could have not been shown legally in any theatre in Canada even six years ago . In the latest horrible example, The Exorcis t, a 12 year old girl uses the foulest language and performs one of the most disg usting acts.

For staging this obscene act with this young girl the producer of this film would a few years ago have been charged with contributing to juvenile delinquency . Film critics have described The Exorcist as a vile and despicable film . Thi s can be said of a large numb er of films being shown today . The question is, Sir, how long are we going to tolerate this vile and despicable garbage polluting our community ? Nude sex scene s, sex perversion in every form have become regular features in hundreds of movie s.

The most disg usting, the most foul language and profanity can be heard loudly and clearly in many movie house s. Brando in the controversial movie "Last Tango" went the limit, both in the foul language used in this act and perversion portrayed . The highlight of this film is a simulation ,

an act of sodomy . The judge in this case decided the film was not obscene and the Manitoba Court of Appeal upheld this ruling . I find that verdict hard to accept . Have we already reached a stage of decadenc e, where even acts of sodomy are considered fit subjects to be presented on the screen or stage in public theatres? Acc ording to the figures I received rrom the Film Classification Board, 223 out of the 459 films they had last year were of the type that were clas sified into one of the restricted categori es .

In other words, half of the films coming into this province are devoted to extreme violence or explicit sex scene s. In some of the films the sex act is staged in a most grotesque way, in the most sordid atmosphere, pimps, prost itutes, gangster s, murderers and criminals of every sort are the most regular features . In so many films there is not a trace of humanity depicted . In so many films not a shred of human decency is portrayed . But, Mr . Speaker, I don't want to say too much about the disg usting movie s.

I am not sure whether I am boring the honourable members or whether I might entice them to the path of evil . I don't want to do anything to encourage them to go to see pornographic movies. At the same tim e I hope they are as seriously concerned about this evil trend in modern films as I am . I wish to commend the honourable members of the Conserv ative Party , and I say this in all sincerity . I was glad that at their last convention in Brandon , they dealt with this iss ue of the harmful effect that bad movies have on our soci ety in these confused time s.

I saw in a press report of their con vention that they showed one of these pornographic films . I am also glad that the majority of those who saw the film walked out in disg ust before it was over . I particularly want to endorse without reservation ... A MEM BE R : What movie was that ? REV . MA LINOWSKI : ... the appeal made by one of their delegates. This is a secret, what kind of a movie . You are not a Cons ervative, my dear friend . A ME MB ER : What's the name of the film ? I want to go see it . REV .

MA LINOWSKI : As reported in the press, he asked his fellow Con servatives: "Take a stand against perverse and depraved films, to take a stand on the common standards of decency ." Mr . Speaker, this is exactly what I am asking this House to do today, take a stand against the depraved film makers, take a stand in favour of common decency and humanity . Sam Goldwyn, the noted film producer died recently . He belonged to the class of movie makers who believed in making movies that entertained people . They gave the people a wide choice . They gave us serious dramas. They gave us comedies .

They gave us films that made us cry or films that made us laugh. They conc entrated on talent . In those days, not so long ago , film makers had as their guideline the motion picture production code . Under this code, nude , simulated sex acts were ruled out . Foul language and so much else that is vile in films today was simply ruled out by this code. Thi s code remained in effect until around the middle sixtie s.

May 29, 1974 4081 CONCURRENCE (REV . MA LINOWSKI cont'd) .•. Then we started thinking about the permis sivene ss society . Step by step the principles in the motion picture codes were side -tracked . Step by step more nude sex scenes appeared in films . Step by step the scenes of violence, torture and killing became more explicit . Now we have reached the stage where many film producer s have aban doned all standards of decenc y. Now you can watch scenes of simulated intercourse in any number of theatres . Now you can watch even acts of sodomy in the movie s.

Now you can even watch a 12 year old girl in the movies violate herself with a cruc ifix . Mr . Speaker, enough is enough. The most honourable members might agree that the standards set out in the motion picture code in 1956 were too puritanical . Will they also agree that the standard in our legis lation with regard to films were too puritanical for our age ? But what I want to ask today is this, should we have no standards of decency in our public theatres at all ?

If the motion picture code of a few years ago is now considered out of date, is it reasonable to suggest there should be no code of ethic s at all to govern film making . Yet this is the situation today. There are no standards , no guidelines , no code of ethic s for the film producer s. Lawyers for instance must abide by certain codes of ethic s. Members of the medical profession must conform to certain standards. Every profess ion, every industry must conform to certain standards. Food producers must conform to standards that safeguard health. Builders must conform to building codes.

Only the movie makers are now wi thout a code, without moral, or even arti stic standards. Only the movie makers are alone unto themselves . They are absolutely free to inflict upon the public every type of degrading film . They are free to inflict upon communities the vilest kind of film garbage, and there seems no power willing to restrain them. But I see at least some slight evidence that we do not want to become a completely decadent society . I noticed in the press a man was fined $500 . 00 rec ently for renting out what is known as stag films .

I also remember another case where a man paid a heavy fine for selling obsce ne photographs. I wonder , Mr . Speaker, in what way a photograph or a so-called stag film could be any worse than some of the pornographic movies playing in the public theatres today ? I notice that Mr . Justice Monnin in his diss enting judgment on The Last Tango case called this film a piece of debauchery which goes beyond the Canadian community tolerance level . In this judgment he considered this film obscene in fact and in law . I agree with his opinion and I am glad Mr . Justice Monnin took that stand .

I don't know how we can establish in any accurate way what the Canadian community tolerance level is . At the invitation of the Film Classi fication Board I went to see some of the disg usting garbage filling our movie houses all acro ss Canada . I know. The films I saw recently are well beyond my own tolerance level . I feel sure, Mr . Speaker, a fair cross -se ction of people of all age groups and ... anywhere in Canada would condemn most of the film garbage polluting our communities today . But in this matter the people have no say, and this is the tragedy . This is as we call democracy .

But in the matter of films a tiny minority of film producers have all the right on their side . Films in the past four years have been getting progres sively more explicit and depicting violence in every form of human depravity . But the producers of the sodomy scenes in The Last Tango , the producer s of the revolting scenes in The Exorcist have already boast ed in the future films they have even worse things in mind . I realize we do not have too many option s.

But if our films come from the United States , which most of them we are getting, we know that in some part of the United States hard core pornography such as De ep Throat and similar films are shown . However, in recent federal legisl ation in the States, have been granted the right to set their own standards of decency in films. In Canada the provinces likewise have the right to determine what kind of films they are willing to tolerate . In this matter we do have the right to assert our independence from that part of the United States where hard core pornography, and even worse , is being tolerated .

All I ask this House to consider is, whether we are willing to sink to the same level, or whether we will take a stand and make clear to the film pornographers that there is a limit to our toleranc e. We should say it loud and clear to the film industry there is a limit to the vile and degrading garbage we will allow them to inflict upon our community .

I am not so naive as to suggest that only good should be portrayed in films, nor that all films will be top quality , but surely we are being subjected to the other extreme today where the great bulk of what is being shown is all manner of violence, bloodshed, perversion, degradation, and filth. According

408 2 May 29 , 1974 CONCURRENC E (REV . MA LINOWSKI cont'd) ... to stati stics in France, 400 films were produced in rec ent years . Now , Mr . Speaker, in these films 310 murders were shown; 182 false testimonie s; 505 adulteries; 84 seductions of minor s; 14 forgers; 104 bank robberie s; 74 blackmail s; 43 arsons and 642 sex scene s. Surely people learn at least partly from what they are exposed to . Can this really be what we want our society to proclaim ? Are there no good movies to be made any more ?

Is life only to be shown as violence and perversi on ?- -(Interjectio n) -- There would be no point in reopening the debate about film censors hip . I don't think censors hip is the answer to our problems today. The same kind of degrading films are being shown in all provinc es even though most of them have boards with censor ship powers. Act ually we never had censor ship in this country . The motion industry had its motion picture production code and the various provinc es and legisla tion who accept the standards of what was considered the community level of tolerance .

The people on the various boards were there to see that the standards in the provincial laws were not being violated in the films' day of old . During the hey-day of permi ss iveness all standa rds were abandoned and the worst of the pornographers in the film industry set the pace. I want to add , Mr. Speaker, with a very modest proposal , I suggest a committee or a commission be formed to study and draw up a motion picture code for this provinc e. It is not for me to suggest at this time what should go into this code , but surely acts of sodomy, real or simulated , would be ruled out .

I would hope that at least hard core pornography and the obscenities in this disgusting film The Exorc is t would be ruled out as unsuitable for presentation in a public theatre . I realize the difficulties of censor ship . I would not want to see us cutting scenes here or there out of films. I realize that to establish in the law what cons titutes community standards in is very difficult . But we make laws in other areas that not everybody agrees with . We cannot simply absolve ourselves from all responsibilit y to society in this one area because not everyone thinks exactly the same thoughts about films.

Are we to declare that in this one area we shall be a completely lawless society ? Or shall there be at least some limit s, some restrictions of balance to the film industry . It is really a question, Mr . Speaker, of where we wish our society to go . What are we trying to prove ? What do we want to teach our children ? Where is our present road in cultural and ethical areas going to take us ? If we do not recognize our respon sibility for this , who then will ? I ask your conside ration of the proposal for a committee or commission in this field . Thank you very much . (Applause) MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . MR . G. JOHNSTON: Would the member who has just spoken submit to a questi on ? REV . MA LINOWSKI: Yes . MR . G. JOHNSTON: Is it not a fact that the members' vote a few years back was instru mental in aboli shing the censor board and allowing for pornographic movies to flood in here ? REV . MA LINOWSKI : Mr . Speaker, I didn't vote for pornographic movies . No , I just voted for a clas sification board, and okay I agree with that . But now I might explain that I am not satisfied . I didn't realize the Classi fication Board will be powerless as it is now .

As I mentioned also during my speech that also in the other provinc es they have a censorship, and the same situation they had as we have here with the Classi fication Board . But what I 'm suggesting, Mr . Speaker, is to find out some other way, some commission, that we can draw out a sort of a line of tolerance , what kind of films we can see, or rather be seen here in our provinc e. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR . SPIVAK: Well, I want to make one comment with respect to the remarks that were just made.

I think it was very clear that when the Clas sificatio n Board was brought in that there wa s no censors hip involved, that all the Clas sificatio n Board would be classify and that the categories of clas sifications were set . There was never any intention at that point, on that basis of that bill , for something to be restricted not to be shown . It could be limited under certain conditio ns , and they were sort of laid out in the Act itself with a respect to the classi fication for a --(Interjectio n) --No , I' m sorry, even then I' m wrong. I guess I' m wrong even in that respe ct .

I think the restriction was for someone under 18, if I'm correct . That's right, it was with respect to someone under 18. But only under certain condition s, or a certain particular classi fication if I' m correct. But with respect to general viewing by adults or anyone over 18 there was no question, there was no censor ship to take place. It was simply a class ification

May 29 , 1974 4083 CONCURR ENC E (MR . SPIVAK cont'd) ... and the arguments advanced at that time by some of those who did oppose it was the fact that even though the line was not being drawn anywhere, that it was open . If the honourable member suggests that he never thought that it was going to reach a point that the line could be drawn somewhere, it was very clear that the line was never going to be drawn, it was simply going to be a clas sification process, and that 's all . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources . MR . GR EEN: Yes, well, Mr .

Speaker , I too am going to spend about as much time as the honourable member spent . In fairness to the Honourable Member for Point Douglas that is not the thesis upon which certain members proceeded, and each person had a right to choose the basis upon which he was dealing with that bill . The honourable member will recall that I took the position that he is taking, that I said that I did not believe that there should be any censor ship .

He should also recall that the Attorney-General took the position that the present censor ship board was a screen for theatres which prevented a succes sful prosecution for obscenity , and that censor ship would be more effective by a direct application of the obsc enity laws . --(In terjectio n) --Now the honourable member will also recall that I said, that I knew that he was going to pros ecute and that! hoped that he lost , because as far as I 'm concerned I don't agree with the existing Federal Government obscenity laws.

But certainly it is legitimate for the Honourable Member for Point Douglas, who I don't happen to agree with-, to have been of the opinion that if we removed the Censor ship Board and had a Clas sification Board, and we dealt with obscenity under the Criminal Code, that that would prevent the kind of a problem that he is now talking about .

Now, I don't think that it will , and frankly I am of the opinion, and I' m not going to go through my whole posit ion as I did before, that freedom in this area will result in society gleaning out the good from the bad and that it will not perpetuate itself, that we had enough pornography with the strictest kind of censor ship to know that it doesn 't work.

But the fact is that it should not be suggested to the honourable member that he voted in favour of not having any kind of supervision over films. -T here was indicated at the time that the supervision would come out of a direct application of the Criminal Code . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St . Boniface . MR. J. PAUL MARION (St. Boniface) : Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I' d like to make a very brief contribution to the debate on this Concurrence motion . I think that the speakers that spoke to the motion before me acc entuated the parkland qualities of this province during the summer season .

I think that there is one aspect that I would like to draw to the Minister 's attention, and that is the fact that in the very near future, some time towards late fall, that the Winnip eg Con vention Centre is going to come into being .

This is going to be one of the very finest facilities available in North America for convention s, and it would seem to me that any amount of effort that can be made by the Minister in his department to work along with the Winnipeg Convention Centre Board itself in promoting these new facilities will be very much appreciated by all Manitoban s, and Winnip egers particularly , because as we know this has been a joint venture between the City of Winnip eg and the province itself.

Now I think that not only am I asking the Minister to give all the con sideration that a 23 million dollar-plus facility should warrant, but I am a

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-146
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 146.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bb6b83a3fedc2d41f992b4abdb48b342c36a31f7

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