Manitoba Hansard — 21 June 2016 (Sitting 25B, 41st Legislature, 1st Session)

41-1-25b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXIX No. 25B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 21, 2016 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CHIEF, Kevin Point Douglas NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon.

River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen St.

Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SELINGER, Greg St. Boniface NDP SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian, Hon.

Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC

1195 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 21, 2016 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Speaker: Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Madam Speaker: Introduction of bills? Committee Reports? Tabling of Reports? MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Madam Speaker: The required 90 minutes' notice prior to routine proceedings was provided in accor - dance with rule 26(2). Would the honourable minister please proceed with the statement. National Aboriginal Day Hon.

Eileen Clarke (Minister of Indigenous and Municipal Relations ): As the Minister responsible for Indigenous Relations, it gives me great pleasure to formally acknowledge that today is National Aboriginal Day. As many of you are aware, National Aboriginal Day is held on June 21st of each year. This day serves as an imp ortant opportunity for indigenous and non- indigenous people to acknowledge, cele - brate and learn about indigenous culture, heritage and perspectives, not only here in Manitoba but all across Canada.

This year's celebrations are particularly important give n that 2016 marks the 20th anni - versary of National Aboriginal Day celebrations. Manitoba's indigenous people have and continue to make significant contribution to our province's social and economic fabric. It is these contributions that this day was intended to recognize. Manitoba has been, and remains, very com - mitted to working closely with indigenous people to move forward on important issues.

We also remain committed to improving our relationship with First Nations, Metis and Inuit peoples so that w e can all work together to build a prosperous Manitoba that provides opportunities for everyone in our province. The Manitoba government today also became a partner of the Thompson Aboriginal Accord. Created in 2009, the accord is a living document that recognizes the role of Aboriginal people in Thompson's history, and affirms the commitment of signatories to strengthened relationships with Aboriginal governments and peoples.

I would like to say a special thanks to all those who have worked so hard at organizing the many important events connected to this day. I would also like to acknowledge everyone who worked so hard to have recognized this day nationally. On this day, June 21st, 2016, I would like to acknowledge National Aboriginal Day and I wish to express my deep appreciation and respect to all indigenous people across Canada. Our country's history and our future progress depends on the contributions and efforts of First Nations, Metis and Inuit peoples, particularly here in Manitoba.

I encourage you to find time to attend one or more amazing events planned for today and I look forward to visiting King Edward Community School this afternoon for their grand opening and dedication of their Sacred Heart Garden project to remember residential school survivors and their families. Once again, it's my privilege and honour and an honour to acknowledge this important day. Thank you. Ekosi. Miigwech. Ms. Amanda Lathlin (The Pas): Today marks National Aboriginal Day, where Canadians celebrate indigenous history, culture and identity.

In Manitoba, we proudly showcase the major contributions that Aboriginal peoples have made and continue to make to our province. I always think it's fitting that National Aboriginal Day occurs in the summer, at a time when many of our indigenous students are graduating and beginning their careers as leaders in our province. Recently I was honoured to attend the UCN graduation at the The Pas campus. As I congratulated our graduates, the most in UCN's history, I thought about the impact investments in education and training has made on the futures of our Aboriginal youth. Education gives Aboriginal young

1196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 people the tools to live healthy, fulfilled lives a nd make us stronger as a province. National Aboriginal Day is an important time to reflect on where we have come from, where we are and where we're going. As Aboriginal people, and as Canadians, it's a time to tell our stories and successes, and it's a t ime to demonstrate the strength and the resiliency of our people.

A year after the release of the Truth and Reconciliation Commissioner's report and the former premier's apology for the tragedy of the '60s scoop, Manitobans are working to tear down the stereotypes that divide us and move forward on the path to reconciliation. But there's still more to do. As we work to overcome the generational effects of colonization, displacement, racism and systemic discrimination, we will continue to draw attention to the struggles that indigenous communities are still experiencing, including missing and murdered indigenous women and girls.

Our NDP caucus is proud to have strong, dynamic, indigenous MLAs who use our expe - riences, perspectives and traditions to help s hape legislation. We will continue to stand up for the rights of indigenous Manitobans and push the government to make inclusive policy and invest - ments and supports for indigenous families. We are proud to be part of a thriving province, rich in indigenous history and community, and we today join others in celebrating our place at the heart of Canadian society. Thank you. Ms. Judy Klassen (Kewatinook): Madam Speaker, I ask for leave to respond to the ministerial statement.

Madam Speaker: Does the memb er have leave? [Agreed] Ms. Klassen: This morning I attended the Four Arrows first annual Indigenous Food Sovereignty Summit. Today is Canada's National Aboriginal Day. My treaty card identifies me as a status Indian. Going back generations, my family are Natives to Canada. This is our homeland. There are many terms used to describe my people and, personally, I'm okay with most; that is not to say that's the same for all of my people, so please be sensitive as to the term which they prefer. My people's identity as the First Peoples of this nation is still in its infancy.

There are many com- munities that are only beginning to explore their history, their unique customs and cultures. This is – the one steadfast component we have not largely lost is our conne ction to the land and how we are still hunter-gatherers. One of Canada's policies was to kill the Indian in the child and, in turn, it killed our culture, our language and our history. It is through our brave people whom took our ways and our traditions underground and hid them that have we –that we have retained this vital knowledge. Many of us are now learning what a magnificent and beautiful culture we all share.

We must come together to nourish it and grow it back into what it once was. In honour of the village we once had, I humbly ask you all to partake in one of the many Aboriginal Day celebrations occurring in our great province, and you will see our vitality, you will feel our mother's heartbeat in our drum. Miigwech, tansi, ekosi, mahseecho, thank you. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Support for Fort McMurray Graduates Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Health , Seniors and Active Living ): Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to honour in the Legislature today three young Manitoba women who have spent the last few weeks collecting grad dresses to be shipped to Fort McMurray to be given to graduates who have lost theirs in the wildfires this spring.

After seeing images of the devastation coming out of Fort McMurray earlier this spring, Celest e Petrick from Sarto, Julia Plett from Blumenort and Mia Prenevault selflessly decided to do something to help those in need and made it their mission to collect as many grad dresses as possible to send to Alberta. Earlier this month, they collected 121 dresses, and the offers of donations keep coming with many Manitoban mothers asking if they can contribute bridesmaid dresses.

It was very important to Celeste, Julia and Mia that the 17 - and 18-year-olds who lost everything in the fires could forget their life-altering challenges for a single night and just go back to being a normal high school graduate. Community support for what these young women are doing has been outstanding. In fact, Steve's Livestock located in Blumenort has agreed to

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1197 pay all the shipping costs for the dresses to go to Alberta. For the 121 dresses they have collected so far, the shipping costs will be well over $700. These fine young Manitobans have been working with the Cinderella Project out of Calgary where the dresses will be shipped to, before being sent to Fort McMurray for the graduation scheduled for September. * (13:40) On behalf of the Manitoba Legislature, thank you for your generosity, your kindness and your compassion for those in need.

You have demonstrated to the rest of Canada the best of what Manitoba and what Manitobans are. Colleagues, please join me in recognizing Celeste and Mia who are with us here today in the gallery. Indigenous Food Sovereignty Summit Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns ): Madam Speaker, it's hard to say you're sovereign if you can't feed your people. That's the title of the keynote speech at the Indigenous Food Sovereignty Summit which starts today. The summit is a part of a cultural reclamation that's been taking place where indig - enous peoples have been decolonizing their food supply.

Over the next three days, the Four Arrows Regional Health Authority is hosting the summit. From homegrown chickens to gardens to fair trade fish, Four Arrows has been working with its member First Nations. For over 10 years they've helped to create local food movements across the country, helping to rebuild First Nations sovereignty. Each of our five historic First Nations along with the Metis Nation are represented at the food summit: The Dene, the Dakota , the Cree, the Ojibwa, the Oji-Cree will share their food stories and insight into their food culture.

Madam Speaker, indigenous food sovereignty means that indigenous peoples are moving back to growing their own food, reconnecting to their food sources and the traditional lands they grow from. It's a look back at our food practices our communities used for centuries while looking forward to reclaim our food identities. Byron Beardy, Food Security Co -ordinator at Four Arrows, has travelled all across Tur tle Island talking about indigenous food culture. He has witnessed first-hand the people's desire to reconnect to their food systems.

He believes it's time to share stories that help reignite the fire within our communities. Madam Speaker, the traditional food that nourished indigenous people –from bannock to blueberries to salmon to moose–is part of indigenous culture. That makes it a part of our language, our ceremonies and our traditional teachings. For the First Nation and Metis people of Manitoba, this looks different from place to place, from nation to nation, but it's the time to start sharing these practices and learning the food ways of our people. Miigwech, Madam Speaker. Seven Oaks MET School Mr.

Nic Curry (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I rise today to bring attention to a unique school with an equally unique program: the Seven Oaks Met School. Seven Oaks Met School opened in September 2009 and engages students through creative, challenging academic work and internships that provide real world learning experiences. Met School partners with Garden City Collegiate for physical education, music programs, advanced sciences and extracurricular activities, but they still have their own mascot, Go Squirrels.

On Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, Met School students have standard curriculum classes at their brand new stand- alone facilities at 640 Jefferson, but on Tuesdays and Thursdays, students explore their interests through examining career connections, develop resumes and interview skills and arrange to interview people who work in the field of their interest. With their advisors and parents , students find internship placements in the community with projects related to their curriculum.

Met students intern at universities, colleges, local businesses, have screened documentaries in multiple international film festivals and launched their careers directly from high school. Met students have received $36,600 in scholarships in the last five years, with 45 graduates to date. As of September 2016, the Met School will have eight advisers–teachers–and 120 students.

Met School is also the recipient of the Canadian Education Association's Ken Spencer Award for Innovation in Teaching and Learning for demon- strating a commitment to engaging the hearts and minds of adolescent learners through successful and

1198 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 sustainable initiatives to develop –to deeply develop, engage students in the learning process. Education is not written in stone, instead it is a conversation. This conversation is well served with new and innovative ways to study. Met School provides an opportunity for young people to learn in new ways in the pursuit of bettering themselves and their community. Madam Speaker, I ask leave of the House to have the Met School class of 2016 entered into the record.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to enter their names into the record? [Agreed] Met School 2016 Grads: Erwin Andaya, Carlo Capobianco, Sarah Carr, Brent Fisher, Alexandra Friesen, Mack Gatti, Jeremy Hrnjeki, Jamie Lee Hubka, Dana Krueger, Wencke Rudi, Alyssa Stoughton, Richard Varkerti Aboriginal Education in Manitoba Mrs. Colleen Mayer (St. Vital): The Louis Riel School Division recognizes the need to engage in deeper learning with our indigenous communities. They look to provide a guide for living and learning together to form an inclusive and accepting learning community.

The Seven Teachings, values that traditionally have formed the basis of a healthy indigenous lifestyle are incorporated into many of its schools. LRSD has begun a new initiative by developing mentorship groups where high school students spend half a year with elders, and in teachings that focus on culture and leadership from indigenous perspectives. High school groups are then matched with an elementary school where they become the leaders and share knowledge and friendship with the younger students. Through this program, students see themselves as leaders and role models.

They have also begun to look at indigenous language programming. The TRC recommendations point to the reclamation of indigenous languages and, next year, they will begin with basic indigenous languages in some of the elementary schools. Louis Riel School Division is working hard to provide opportunities to connect students to their language and culture. On Monday, June 13th, I was invited to attend the first annual graduation powwow at Dakota 'collegian'. This was a celebration of graduates, culture and the LRSD and its surrounding community. Dancers and drummers from across the province participated.

This powwow was a way to honour indigenous and non- indigenous graduates, celebrate diversity and acknowledge the community's commitment to indigenous student s and families. LRSD wants its students to be proud and to be celebrated for their accomplishments. Madam Speaker, may I turn your attention to the Louis Riel School Division's Aboriginal education co-ordinator, Corey Kapilik, and Superintendent Duane Brothers, who are in the gallery with us today. Please join me in congratulating them on the work they do to make LRSD a leader in the field of Aboriginal education in Manitoba. Miigwech, merci, thank you.

Summer Festivities in Manitoba Ms. Cindy Lamoureux (Burrows): Although we have already experienced summer weather and its warmth for a couple of months, yesterday marked the first official day of summer, formally known as the summer solstice. I have fond memories, and I know that there are many more to come, of enjoying Manitoba summers. Whether it be relaxing with friends at the beach with bonfires, attending the many cultural events our province has to offer or my favourite summer activity, dirt biking, Manitoba does not fall short of offering us ple nty of fun in the sun.

I can think of many unique activities and festivals that cater to the interest of Manitobans. For example, today is Aboriginal Day, which means there are festivities occurring all day long. For those who enjoy the thrill of rides, the Red River Exhibition is still open until this Sunday. Later this month, country music fans will commute to Dauphin for Canada's longest running country music festival, Countryfest. And one of my favourite festivals that I have attended as long as I can remember is 'Folkorama'. This two-week display in August allows us to embrace the diversity of Winnipeg's cultural makeup.

Summer's also a chance to simply enjoy being outside and take in the nature. In Burrows, the NorWest Co -op Community Food Centre gives the community the chance to use the green thumb through the drop-in garden. This initiative is great for our community, teaching those interested how to grow their own garden while promoting locally grown foods.

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1199 Madam Speaker, whether it be catchi ng a Goldeyes game, experiencing the dinosaur exhibit at the zoo, I encourage all Manitobans to take advantage of what Manitoba has to offer this summer season. I'm sure we can all agree that our beautiful summers do not last long enough. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery, where we have with us today students from Met School, accompanied by their principal, Nancy Janelle, and teacher Rory Brett, who are the guests of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Curry). Also in the gallery, we have with us today Brigitta Schuler and Lorianne Dueck, who are the guests of the honourable member of Crown Services and, I believe, family members.

And, also in the public gallery, from Red River College Language Training Centre, 25 adult English language students, under the direction of Janice Ching, and this group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Logan (Ms. Marcelino). On behalf of all honourable members here, we welcome all of you here today. * (13:50) ORAL QUESTIONS Canada Pension Plan Expansion Manitoba Seniors Ms. Flor Marcelino (Leader of the Official Opposition): One of the most important universal social programs for Manitobans is the Canada Pension Plan.

Just yesterday, there was a historic agreement between the federal government and the eight provinces to significantly improve benefits under the CPP. Quebec has its own program through the Quebec Pension Plan. Manitobans were shocked and embarrassed to see the Premier and this government refusing to be part of an agreement that will significantly improve pension benefits. Last week, the Premier literally turned his back on Mrs. McGregor, a senior who wanted to talk to him about his clawback of seniors' property tax credits.

Why is the Premier turning his back on future generations of Manitoba seniors by refusing to support badly needed pension reform? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): Well, on April 19th, Manitobans turned their back on a political party that raided their pocketbooks with regular joy, it seemed, on their part. Manitobans elected a new government that will stand up for them and with them and a ssist them in achieving their financial goals. This is a partnership that needs to be developed, and this is an opportunity to develop that partnership, Madam Speaker, and we look forward to doing that.

Madam Speaker: The honourable interim Official Opposition Leader, on a supplementary question. Ms. Marcelino: New Democrats are proud of our history and tradition in fighting for fair pension benefits. Manitobans, like J.S. Woodsworth and Stanley Knowles, were leaders in the fight of the CCF and NDP for a universal pension system. In the last provincial election, we were the only party to fight for CPP expansion. The Premier talked negatively about CPP reform in the context of him having been an investment adviser in the private sector. The Manitoba Liber al leader spoke out against CPP reform.

We as Manitoba New Democrats are going to fight for pension reform in Manitoba and in Canada. Why won't this Premier stand up for Manitoba and support a fair deal for Manitoba seniors? Mr. Pallister: Thank you to my colleague again, Madam Speaker, and to you for the opportunity to say that the only time that I have seen the NDP vigorously fight for pension benefits was for severance payments for disgruntled staffers who left the party. And the reality of the si tuation is quite different from that which the member describes.

In fact, in the 2011 provincial election, as I recall it, and the members may like to revise history, but as I recall and Manitobans recall, they went to every door in the city of Winnipeg a nd around the province. They knocked. They promised no tax hikes, and they delivered $1 billion in tax increases. Taking $1 billion away from Manitobans that they did not have available to save for their own financial future is hardly a sincere indication of a genuine commitment to Manitobans' well-being. Madam Speaker: The honourable interim Official Opposition Leader, on a final supplementary.

1200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 Ms. Marcelino: This is the Premier and his party that four days before election said they won't claw back seniors' tax rebate. Let's be clear, Madam Speaker. We're not reassured by the government –we're not reassured by this government's incompetence. The Premier's political friends in the federal Conservative Party oppose this deal. This is the party that under Stephen Harper saw pension reform as raising the retirement age to 67. We are not reassured that this government will work to preserve this deal.

Why won't the Premier recognize that when it comes to our seniors' pensions, Manitobans do not want a go vernment that is most right -wing government in Canada? Why won't he recognize that Manitobans want a government that will stand up for Manitoba seniors and ensures a decent retirement for today's seniors and for generations of seniors to come? Mr. Pallister: Well, Manitobans rejected the previous administration's attempt to be re -elected on the basis that they were so divided they couldn't even stand up for one another, let alone stand up for Manitoba seniors. We will stand up for Manitoba seniors.

This is a generational decision, it's an important debate, and we will participate in it fully. We are a newly elected government, but we will ensure in every decision that we take–and we will take our decisions thoughtfully–we will ensure that we stand up for the best interests of Manitoba's working families and seniors.

We want to make sure that Manitobans have the maximum ability to find their financial future and the security they deserve, Madam Speaker, not have it eroded as was the case over the last number of years by profligate spending by a dysfunctional and divided government that would raid their pocket - books so that it could get credit and put up billboards for spending money it had taken away from working Manitoba families. That won't happen with t his government. We will stand up for Manitobans. We will support Manitobans in their efforts to get a secure retirement.

Canada Pension Plan Expansion Government Position Mr. James Allum (Fort Garry -Riverview): Madam Speaker, you know the Finance Ministe r embarrassed Manitobans on the national stage yesterday, but the Premier is only embarrassing himself today with the answers that he's given so far. Last week I asked the Finance Minister what his position on–what his position was on expanding the CPP, a nd he either didn't know or he wouldn't say. And then yesterday he went to a meeting with Finance ministers and the federal Finance Minister in Vancouver and he still didn't know or he wouldn't say.

So we're going to try again today, Madam Speaker. Can t he Finance Minister tell us why he didn't join a strong national consensus yesterday to expand and enhance the CPP for all Canadians? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Finance ): Yesterday in Vancouver, we undertook to study several important issues, including CPP enhance - ment. Manitoba was proud to be at that table. And the member will understand that there is no one group that did so much to limit the power of Manitobans to save for themselves as that previous NDP government.

We were proud to be there standing up for Manitobans and bringing our perspective to that table. Those were helpful discussions. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Fort Garry-Riverview, on a supplementary question. Mr. Allum: You know, two thirds of Canadians do not have pensions through their workplace. That means 11 million people will benefit from expanding the CPP here in Canada.

Even if the–expanding the CPP doesn't fit in with the personal ideology of the Premier or the Minister of Finance, the Finance Minister is now making decisions on behalf of all the people of Manitoba, not just his friends in the business community. Why won't the Finance Minister stand up for the rest of Manitobans, for f amilies, for seniors, for women and minimum wage earners who rely on the CPP and fight for the retirement savings they deserve? Mr.

Friesen: Well, once again the member for Fort Garry-Riverview demonstrates that he won't let a small thing like accurate in formation stand in his way of asking inflammatory questions. So the member doesn't seem to get it, that CPP is important and affordability in retirement is important, just like household affordability is right

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1201 now. And the member should acknowledge that there is a more sophisticated conversation that we are undertaking in this province. The dialogue that we have with Manitobans matters. We put that first. We indicated in the room that for a government that's been in place for less than nine weeks, this presented a real challenge. We will have that conversation with Manitobans. We will have that conversation around the Cabinet table. And we will get this right. It's too important not to get right.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Fort Garry-Riverview, on a final supplementary. Mr. Allum: You know, the Finance Minister showed up for the photo op, but he wouldn't stay for the press conference to explain to Manitobans why he refused to sign a strong national consensus on the CPP. * (14:00) This is not only good for Manitobans, it's good for all Canadians, and he has an obligation to stand in this House today and tell us why he refused to sign that agreement. Manitobans want to know: What's the answer? Mr.

Friesen : Well, the member feigns i ndignation but his responses reveal how important it is to actually have an education approach on this. It really matters that we get it right. His responses show how important a piece of fiscal knowledge really is. CPP was never designed to be the whole a nswer for Manitobans when it was designed, when it was changed in the 1990s, and even now it's important for us to have the comprehensive discussion with Manitobans. Manitobans care about the bills they have to pay now. They also care about having enough in retirement.

This is the conversation that we will undertake to have, and we will expedite that conversation but we won't let the member's antics get in the way of that conversation that we will have with Manitobans. Canada Pension Plan Expansion Minimum Wage Earners Mr. Kevin Chief (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, minimum wage earners are more likely to be single parents, women and working full -time. Research shows that increasing minimum wage helps lift people out of poverty, it reduces the need for social services, and they end up spending more, which, of course, helps strengthen our economy.

Will the minister agree that increasing the minimum wage will help these families today and expanding the CPP will help these families tomorrow? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Finance ): Well, I thank the member for the question because, again, as I've said other times in this House, affordability matters, and we know that our pre - decessors, the NDP government, did more to create hardship for Manitobans.

As a matter of fact, I remind this same member who brings this question now that this will be the year in which Manitoba passes the threshold whereby the government will have received $1 billion as a result of their ill -fated decision to raise the PST on all Manitobans. He wants to talk about affordability ? Let's talk about him raising the PST on all Manitobans. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Point Douglas, on a supplementary question. Mr. Chief: We know Manitoba continues to have one of the strongest economies in the country with one of the lowest unemployment rates.

A key part of that success is listening, having conversations with groups like single parents, women and those most impacted by the minimum wage and who often need support, the support of a strong, reliable Canadian pension plan. Will the minister support the federal position on expanding the CPP so that these families can have a future that is bright? Mr. Friesen : Madam Speaker, I would repeat: Affordability really matters to Manitobans. It matters to Manitobans.

We must, of course, acknowledge this member doesn't seem to quite understand that the changes that would take place with CPP would not affect seniors that are retired now in Manitoba. This is a generational decision to take. It's about having adequate retirement for thos e who'll be entering retirement years from now. That's an important conversation to have and we don't deny that. We are going to be right in the centre of that conversation. What we've done is taken a principled approach.

For a government in place for les s than nine weeks – and that was acknowledged around the table in Vancouver–it presents particular challenges. Whereby other jurisdictions had the opportunity to

1202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 benefit from discussions in their jurisdiction, we need to have those same conversations here. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Point Douglas, on a final supplementary. Mr. Chief: The minister talks about affordability. He clearly knew about affordability when he gave himself a 36 per cent raise when he got into Cabinet. And his Premier (Mr. Pallister) gave himself a 39 per cent raise. We know that the raise that they gave themselves were clearly help them today.

We know that that raise they gave themselves will brighten their future for tomorrow and their retirement. So to be fair–to be fair–Madam Speaker, will the Premier, will this minister, agree to do the same thing for low -income Manitobans and increase the minimum wage and help them today, and will they expand the CPP to brighten their future for tomorrow as well? Mr. Friesen : Well, the member's incorrect, and he knows full well that a commissioner sets compensation for members. If he advocates a different position, he should say so on the record.

But in respect of his question about affordability, Madam Speaker, I repeat that affor dability matters. Talk about an ideological approach. This member understands full well that his government would raise the minimum wage while not indexing tax brackets, making sure that money would be –would continue to flow into their coffers. We've raised indexing. We've made sure to keep more money in the hands of Manitobans not just this year but for every year thereafter going forward, more money for hard-working Manitobans. MMIWG Families Meeting with Minister Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St.

Johns): On this National Aboriginal Day, I want to acknowledge Felicia Solomon -Osborne, 16 years old, from Norway House Cree Nation. In 2003, Felicia's mother, and grandmother Councillor Darlene Osborne, were given her leg and her arm that had washed ashor e the Red River, almost 11 years earlier, in the exact same spot where Tina Fontaine's body was found wrapped in a blanket, weighted down with weights in a garbage bag. Can the Minister of Indigenous and Municipal Relations advise if she has met with MMIW G families and whether she's met with the coalition of MMIWG families? Hon.

Eileen Clarke (Minister of Indigenous and Municipal Relations): I acknowledge that there are many stories out there that have been going on for years and years and there will co ntinue to be stories that are absolutely heartbreaking not just for the families but for all people of Manitoba because every person that has come to these kind of consequences in their life for whatever reason, it affects many people. There's a lot of fam ilies; there's a lot of friends. And that heartache doesn't go away in a day or a year or forever for these people.

We acknowledge that, and we have met with many indigenous leaders, and we will continue to meet as time allows. Their stories are important . Understanding how they feel is important. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a supplementary question. Government Support Ms. Fontaine: I will point out that these aren't stories. They're journeys and experiences that families live with every single day. Two days ago, it was the eight -year anniversary of Jennifer Catcheway when she went missing.

And as some of us do every year, we travelled to Portage la Prairie this past Saturday to offer emotional and financial support to her par ents at their annual fundraising barbecue. Jennifer went missing the day before she turned 18. Her mother, Pastor Bernice Catcheway, travels all over Manitoba looking for her daughter in garbage dumps, in swamps, in rivers and in thick bush. Can the mini ster of indigenous and municipal affairs advise what support her department will be offering families like the Catcheways in their search efforts? Ms.

Clarke: I want to thank the member opposite for her comments as well as her question. I'm very familiar with the Catcheway family story. I actually live in that area. And I think it is worth mentioning that they not only carry their own grief but they have been very instrumental and supportive of all families since that time and during the days. They actual ly came out again into my constituency just this past summer to help look for a missing boy. Those people continue to give to others,

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1203 and I think Manitoba is recognized as being a very giving community and a very giving province. There is a lot of support out there, but the support doesn't change the circumstances. And we acknowledge that. And as a government, we also acknowledge that a lot of work needs to be done, and we need to prevent this happening more in the future. * (14:10) Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a final supplementary. Appointment of Special Adviser Ms.

Fontaine: Madam Speaker, I just want to advise that I've asked two questions and so far I haven't received any answers. And on any day of the year in which I ask a question in respect of MMIWG, today is the day to provide real and tangible answers. There are hundreds of MMIWG families in Manitoba that, on top of dealing with the trauma of having a missing or murdered loved one, deal with a variety of other daily pressing issues. Often, MMIWG families need a direct link and support to navigate through government social services. MMIWG families across Manitoba are anxious as we all await the national inquiry.

Can the minister advise whether her government will appoint a special adviser on indigenous women's issues in support of MMIWG families? Ms. Clarke: Again, I'd like to acknowledge the question asked. We are very support of ongoing work to be done. We realize that there's a lot of work to be done. There are no t answers that can be answered in one day. If they were, they would have been done by now. This is an ongoing –strategies have to be worked on. We have to work collaboratively, indigenous and nonindigenous people. We have to work with our police force. Ther e are so many components that have to be involved.

It has to be ongoing. We're very aware of that and we will continue to work. Truth and Reconciliation Commission Implementation of Recommendations Ms. Amanda Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission spent six years examining the damaging effects that the residential school era has had on our country. Many survivors have shown incredible resilience in the face of institutionalized racism, instances of mental illness, inter generational abuse, community and family breakdown and chronic poverty.

The report make clear–makes clear that it's up to all levels of government to address these issues with real action. Our former government took immediate action and passed The Path to Reconciliation Act which laid out a framework of how the TRC's recommendations will be implemented. Will the Minister of Indigenous and Municipal Relations tell the House which of the 94 calls to action she plans to take immediate action on? Hon. Eileen Clarke (Minister of Indigenous and Municipal Relations): I thank the member opposite for her question.

Again, we have been meeting and we have been discussing and looking at these 94 recommendations going forward. I was present and took

part in the blanket ceremony that was held just a few weeks ago. There was a good turnout from the whole community, people listening to the story that was being told and trying to understand all the hardships that so many survivors of residential schools have gone through. We will continue to work on the 94 recom - mendations and, again, it's going to have to be a collaborative effort and an ongoing effort. Thank you. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for The Pas, on a supplementary question. Ms.

Lathlin: A number of the commission's recom - mendations call on the provincial government to make significant improvements in access to health care for indigenous people, including increasing the number of Aboriginal health- care professionals and providers in our communitie s. Our former govern - ment was making steady strides in improving health-care options in northern Manitoba, especially with The Pas primary health -care clinic, but this government has admitted the project may be on the cutting board.

Will the minister of indigenous and municipal affairs admit that scrapping The Pas clinic would not only limit health-care access for residents of The Pas, OCN and surrounding communities but also under - mines the recommendations of the TRC? Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Health , Seniors and Active Living ): I appreciate the question from my friend from The Pas. We had a good discussion yesterday in Estimates committee

1204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 regarding the truth and reconciliation committee's recommendation regarding health. I advise d her at that time, and I'm pleased to advise the House, that a number of different things have been happening within the health- care depart - ment and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority in terms of cultural education to ensure that those who are indig enous individuals who are in our health-care system are getting culturally appropriate care, and we'll continue that good work, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for The Pas, on a final supplementary. Ms. Lathlin: The report calls on provincial governments to take mediate –immediate action to address the disproportionate number of Aboriginal offenders in jails across Canada. They call on the Manitoba government to provide stable funding to implement and evaluate community sanctions that will provide realistic alternatives to crime for Aboriginal people and responds to the underlying causes of the offending. This government has now cut $35 million in funding to programs that help prevent crime and support communities.

Will the minister e xplain how she plans to reduce the number of Aboriginal offenders and create pathways out of crime for indigenous young people without funding prevention programs? Mr. Goertzen : Well, and of course, Madam Speaker, this is a multi-faceted issue. There are many departments that are involved with trying to ensure that young people have opportunities, that young people have opportunities to overcome struggles, that young people have opportunities to overcome obstacles that might be in their lives.

I hesitate to remind the member that the greatest growth of the population of our Aboriginal people within the provincial jail system happened when they were in government over the last 17 years. Psychological Services Coverage Under Medicare Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Speaker, today there are a number of health -care issues which need urgent attention. First, the state of mental health care in our province badly needs attention to prevent the high number of suicides, to prevent and treat the high incidence of depression and to help those who are exposed to violent and traumatic situations.

The government has announced it will do a full review of mental health services in Manitoba. Manitoba Liberals have been strong supporters of putting critical psychological services under medicare. Will the Premier (Mr. Pallister) be considering putting critical psychological services under medi - care as we do for physician services? Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Health , Seniors and Active Living ): Thank my friend from River Heights for the question. We had a good discussion about this yesterday.

As I indicated to him yesterday afternoon, the government will be moving forward with a combined mental health and addictions strategy. We believe that those two should be done together because there is certainly a correlation between those two issues. If the member for River Heights has good ideas when that process comes forward, we're always open to good ideas. We don't believe anybody has a monopoly on good i deas, and we're open to hearing his, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for River Heights, on a supplementary question. Diabetes Rates Reduction Plan Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for that opening. Second, as Health Minister, he knows we have a diabetes epidemic. It's raging out of control in our province. It's having widespread impact and is currently in Manitoba directly affecting more than 100,000 Manitobans. And yet, the minister is dr iving blindly into this raging epidemic without a clear province -wide plan. The status quo is not acceptable. When will the government put forward and implement a new and much more effective approach to addressing the diabetes epidemic we have right now? Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Health , Seniors and Active Living): Well, Madam Speaker, the member is not incorrect on one point. Certainly, we do have a significant issue when it comes to diabetes in the province of Manitoba. We've talked

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1205 about the challenges in terms of not only prevention but also ensuring that there's dialysis in the proper places. I can tell him clearly that it's not going to be made any easier if we don't have support from our federal friends in Ottawa, Madam Speaker, and the federal government doesn't decide to come to the table with clear funding, clear and consistent funding as has been done in the past few years. That is going to be much harder.

Maybe he could use some of his pent -up energy to speaking to his friends in Ottawa to make sure that that happens, Madam Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Order. Order. The honourable member for River Heights, on a final supplementary. Dedicated Stroke Unit Government Plan Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): The minister needs to pay attention to the provincial respon- sibility, and there is actually a lot of federal dollars flowing to this government right now.

While the government knows full well that a dedicated stroke unit is urgently needed to reduce the morbidity and mortality from this dreaded condition, the minister acknowledged yesterday that the stroke unit was not on his long and ambitious list of projects which he is currently proceeding with. Further, in two months, there has been no announcement and no clear date or plan with timelines put forward by the government. * (14:20) Will the Premier (Mr. Pallister) indicate today what the plan of action is and what the timeline is for the establishment of the dedicated stroke unit here in Manitoba? Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Health , Seniors and Active Living ): Well, there's so many inaccuracies I'm going to have to ask for leave to answer that question. Certainly it is on our plan to do the dedicated stroke unit, and what he asked yesterday is what's currently under construction. I'm sure if we'd started construction within four weeks of a dedicated stroke unit the member would be going around saying we didn't have proper consultation. At the beginning part of his question, he indicated that the federal government doesn't have responsibility for health care. Well, that's not true.

They certainly have funding responsibility. I'm asking him to phone Otta wa and have some effort to try to ensure that that funding is maintained and increased at the level it needs to be so that the diabetes epidemic can be properly addressed in Manitoba. Get on the phone instead of just coming here and complaining. Aquatic Invasive Species Prevention Funding Increase Mr. Rick Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, Manitoba's lakes and rivers are vital to tourism and economic growth. Aquatic invasive species can severely impact aquatic habitats, fisheries, recreation and water -related infrastructure.

It's so important to work together and take the precautions to stop the spread of species like zebra mussels. Could the Minister of Sustainable Development inform the House of the steps our government is taking to work together with stakeholders and other provinces to stop the threat of aquatic invasive species? Hon. Cathy Cox (Minister of Sustainable Development): I'd like to thank the member from Swan River for this very important question. Our government is committed to protecting our lakes and rivers and preventing the spread of aquatic invasive s pecies.

Ensuring our anglers, tourists and all Manitobans enjoy our lakes well into the future is important to this government. I am proud to advise all members in this House that our government has significantly increased funding from the AIS prevention program to $698,000, a major increase from last year's budget of $168,000. Our government is increasing in communications and enhanced our AIS awareness campaign to ensure all Manitobans and all visitors clean, drain, dry and dispose rules whenever their watercraft, trailers and equipment exit a body of water.

For the first time– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Canada Pension Plan Expansion Manitoba Seniors Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): Madam Speaker, seniors in this province spend their lives working

1206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 hard with the expectation that they'll be able to enjoy their retirement and not have to worry about basics like paying the bills or putting food on the table. This government has shown they just don't understand the pressures seniors face when one of their first moves was, as a government, was to claw back the seniors' tax rebate. Now they've had the opportunity to stand up for seniors on the national level and they blew it. Will the Min ister responsible for Seniors stand up to his Premier (Mr.

Pallister) and his Finance Minister and tell them to get on board with the rest of Canada? Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Health , Seniors and Active Living): Well, that member had the opportunity to get off board with the rest of his caucus in the summer of 2013 when they decided to increase the PST on every senior, on every Manitoban right across this province. In fact, they increased the costs on virtually everything in Manitoba. Madam Spea ker, he had the opportunity then to stand up for seniors. He didn't do it. We sat here all summer; we sat here in the fall.

We did it as a caucus led by our Premier because we were standing up for Manitobans. We're still doing it today. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Concordia, on a supplementary question. Mr. Wiebe: This minister needs to listen to the question. We're talking about seniors here and we're talking about seniors who have to make those difficult decisions between paying their bills, buying food or buying their medication for the month. An increase to the CPP would take away some of those pressures.

It would make those decisions a little bit easier and it would build a strong foundation for seniors to enjoy a well -earned and fulfilling retirement. This minister failed to stand up to his Premier when he took the cheques right out of the mailboxes of seniors in this province. Will he now stand up and join with the rest of the country in making sure that seniors get what they've earned? Mr. Goertzen: Well, I'm not sure what this member thinks that seniors do or where they live. They actually live, most of them, in homes, homes that had PST applied to their home insurance under this member, Madam Speaker.

Many of these seniors would actually like to take a little bit of a vacation once in a while, and those seniors had an increase of PST put on them, Madam Speaker. The –seniors are buying all sorts of things across the province and they are paying more every day –every day –every day–because this member wouldn't stand up to his premier and to his caucus when they increased the PST. We stood up then. We stood up now. We're going to stand up tomorrow, every day, for seniors. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Concordia, on a final supplementary. Mr.

Wiebe: Well, every day, seniors are calling my office say ing that this Premier campaigned on maintaining the seniors' tax rebate, and once he got their votes, he clawed it back just to fit their fiscal fiction. Now he's failing them once again by not working with the other provinces to just simply provide a basic deal for seniors in this country. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Order. Mr. Wiebe: When these members were in opposition, they said we should follow the lead of our western neighbours. Well, Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC and the rest of Canada are all on board.

When will they get the message? Mr. Goertzen : Well, Manitobans got the message when the NDP were in government. They got the message that each and every year, taxes were going to go up. Each and every year, the hydro was going to go up. Each and every year, they were going to pay more, Madam Speaker. Manitobans were hoping to have a freedom -55 program, and under the NDP they tried to turn it into freedom 95. Canada Pension Plan Expansion Low-Income and Senior Women Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St.

Johns): Senior women are twice as likely to live in poverty as men, and 30 per cent of them rely on OAS and GIS benefits for their total income as compared to only 18 per cent of senior men. The reality is women earn less over their lifetime, work longer hours for lower paying jobs that offer little or no pension. These senior women earned less than men and shouldered most of the responsibility for caregiving, meaning that they often had to interrupt their careers or work part time.

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1207 Will the Minister of Finance concede his rejection of the CPP expansion will keep many senior women in a cycle of poverty and does nothing alleviate the burden of the pay gap on working Manitoba families? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Finance ): First of all, I'd offer this clarification to the member, and that is, she's wrong. In no way does the position that we've taken reflect any kind of negation of options. It's quite the opposite, actually, Madam Speaker. What we've said, clearly, is that this is too important of an issue to race in.

It is an issue that requires our full att ention. It requires consultation. It requires listening to Manitobans. And the Manitobans that I've spoken to have said, take the time to get this right. We are reflecting that request in the activities that we will now undertake in respect of this. Affordability in retirement matters. Affordability for all Manitobans matters. They could have done so much more for Manitobans in the last 17 years. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a supplementary question. Ms. Fontaine: Madam Speaker , I'm curious who this government will be consulting with.

These challenges will remain for the next -generation workers as well, as young women in Manitoba are still more likely to work for low -paying jobs, part time, that still don't offer a pension plan. This government has no plan to address the growing need for more child- care spaces and is refusing to invest in public -centre-based child care, doubling the fees and making life even less affordable for young mothers. This government has failed to inve st in women's health care, failed to 'provort' accessible and affordable care.

Will the minister admit that his government's decision to reject the CPP reform and ignore public child care financially marginalizes young– * (14:30) Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): Madam Speaker, I just encourage the members opposite to get their act together on these positions they're taking. The leader on the other side of the House has said she supports our position of putting in the hands of low -income seniors the full education tax rebate which we've maintained from the previous year for those very people that the member from St.

Johns has just– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Pallister: –raised in her

preamble. The member for Concordia so obviously doesn't even understand the basics of how CPP works and the member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer) the same. That they actually talk about handouts coming from – [interjection] They actually talk about money coming from Ottawa to support Manitobans. Fundamentally, Madam Speaker, I encourage the members opposite to do a little bit of research and understand that CPP is a ve hicle for saving for retirement that is funded solely by the contributors. The money comes from Manitoba workers; it comes from Manitoba small -business employers. These people fund these programs.

This is what we're deliberating upon. The impact on Manit obans of the major tax hikes imposed by the previous administration is being felt today by Manitobans at all income levels. We need a plan that works for Manitobans. That's what this government will develop. The previous government forgot about Manitobans, just thought about itself. Madam Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. PETITIONS Minimum Wage–Annual Increase Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

And the reasons for this petition are as follows: To urge the provincial government to commit to raising the minimum wage on consistent annual basis so that all hard -working Manitobans can provide for their families. And this petition is signed by many, many fine Manitobans. Madam Speak er: In accordance with our rule 133(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Mr. Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background for this petition is as follows:

1208 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 Thousands of Manitobans are reliant on minimum wage jobs. Raising the minimum wage is one of the most effective means of raising employment, Manitobans– employed Manitobans above poverty line. Increasing the minimum wage on a consistent, incremental basis puts more money in the pockets of hard-working Manitobans. Mandating the increase in regular intervals allows business and families to plan and budget accordingly.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provinc ial government to commit to raising the minimum wage on a consistent, annual basis so that all hard -working Manitobans can provide for their families. This petition is submitted –or, signed by A. Rothney, B. Crothers and H. Schellenberg and many other hard-working Manitobans. Bell's Purchase of MTS Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

The background of the petition is as follows: Manitoba telephone system is currently a fourth cellular carrier used by Manitobans along with the big three national carriers: Telus, Rogers and Bell. In Toronto, with only the big three national companies controlling the market, the average five-gigabyte unlimited monthly cellular package is $117 as compared to Winnipeg, where MTS charges $66 for the same package. Losing MTS will mean less competition and will result in higher costs for all cellphone packages in the province.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government do all that is possible to prevent the Bell takeover of MTS and preserve a more competitive cellphone market so that cellular bills for Manitobans do not increase unnecessarily. And this petition is signed by many fine Manitobans. Madam Speaker: Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS (Continued) House Business Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): House business, Madam Speaker.

I'd like to announce the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs wi ll meet on Tuesday, June 28, 2016, at 6 p.m. to consider Bill 3, The Mental Health Amendment Act , and Bill 5, The Francophone Community Enhancement and Support Act. Madam Speaker: It has been announced that the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs will meet on Tuesday, June 28, 2016, at 6 p.m. to consider Bill 3, The Mental Health Amendment Act, and Bill 5, The Francophone Community Enhancement and Support Act. Mr.

Goertzen: On further House business, Madam Speaker, would you canvass the House and see if there's leave to set aside the Estimates of Executive Council tomorrow, June 22nd, to be replaced with the Department of Indigenous and Municipal Relations, with the changes to be in effect for tomorrow only. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to set aside the Estimates of Executive Council tomorrow, June 22nd, to be replaced with the Department of Indigenous and Municipal Relations, with the change to be in effect for tomorrow only? [Agreed] Mr. Goertzen: Thank the House, Madam Speaker.

Would you further canvass the House to see if there's leave to move the Estimates of the Department of Families from the Chamber into room 255 permanently and for the Estimates of the Department of Families to commence upon completion of the Estimates of the Department of Health, Seniors and Active Living? Madam Speaker: Is there leave to move the Estimates of the Department of Families from the Chamber into r oom 255 permanently and for the Estimates of Department of Families to commence upon completion of the Estimates of the Department of Health, Seniors and Active Living? [Agreed] Mr.

Goertzen: Thank the House, Madam Speaker.

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1209 Can you please canvass the House to see if there's leave to brin g forward a sessional order outlining House business and House scheduling for the remainder of the spring sitting session and for the fall and November sittings? Madam Speaker: Is there leave to bring forward a sessional order outlining House business and House scheduling for the remainder of the spring sittings session and for the fall and November sittings? [Agreed] Mr. Goertzen: Thank the House, Madam Speaker. And I move, se conded by the member for Elmwood (Mr.

Maloway), THAT the following sessional order applies until December 2, 2016, despite any other rule or practice of the House. And if there's–and I'm also asking if there's leave at this time to dispense with the reading of the text of the sessional order, given that copies are being provided to all members with the understanding that the full text of the sessional order will appear in Hansard and in the Votes and Proceedings.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave at this time to dispense with the reading of the text of the sessional order, given that copies are being provided to all members with the understanding that the full text of the sessional order will appear in Hansard and in the Votes and Proceedings? [Agreed] It has been moved by the honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Goertzen), seconded by the honourable member for Elmwood, THAT the sessional order that applies until December 22nd, 2016, despite any other rule or practice of the House– An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense? Dispense. Thank you.

THAT the following Sessional Order applies until December 2, 2016 despite any other rule or practice of this House. Sitting

Schedule for June, 2016 1. Subject to the following, the House shall sit during its usual sitting hours until June 30, 2016: (

a) On Wednesday, June 22, 2016, the House shall sit until 6:00 pm to consider departmental estimates. (

b) On Thursday, June 23, 2016, the House shall consider departmental estimates during the morning sitting. P rivate Members’ Business shall not be considered. In the afternoon, the House shall sit until 6:00 p.m. to consider departmental estimates. (

c) On Friday, June 24, 2016, the House shall sit to consider departmental estimates from 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon and from 1:00 to 6:00 p.m. or until the 100- hour limit for the business of supply expires, whichever occurs first. (

d) On Monday, June 27, 2016, the House shall consider the concurrence motion in Committee of Supply. (

e) On Tuesday, June 28, 2016, the House shall consider the concurrence motion in Committee of Supply in the morning. Private Members’ Business shall not be considered. In the afternoon, the House shall sit until 6:00 pm to consider the concurrence motion in Committee of Supply. (

f) On Wednesday, June 29, 20 16, the House shall sit until 6:00 p.m. to consider the concurrence motion in the Committee of Supply. (

g) On Thursday, June 30, 2016 the House shall sit from 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon to consider and conclude the concurrence motion in Committee of Supply. Matters to be complete before adjournment on June 30, 2016 2. The House is to not see the clock or adjourn until the following matters are completed on June 30, 2016: (

a) Report Stage, Concurrence and Third Reading of any Government Bill reported to the House by June 29, 2016; (

b) all stages, including Concurrence and Third reading, for passage of the Main and Capital Supply Bills; (

c) all stages, including Concurrence and Third reading, for passage of Bill (No. 11) – The Budget Implementation and Tax Statutes Amendment Act, 2016/Loi d'exécution du budget de 2016 et modifiant diverses dispositions législatives en matière de fiscalité;

1210 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 (

d) all steps necessary to complete the Budget Process; (

e) Royal Assent for all government Bills that have received Concurrence and Third reading. Points of Order and Matters of Privilege are to be set aside until these matters have been completed, and any divisions related to the above matters must not be deferred. Adjournment on June 30, 2016 3. The House will adjourn without motion on June 30, 2016 and stand adjourned until October 3, 2016, unless called earlier by the Speaker. Fall Sittings 4. The House shall sit from October 3 to November 10, 2016 (the “Fall Sittings”) and, subject to paragraphs 5 to 8, shall sit during its usual sitting hours.

Completion of Second Reading of Government Bills introduced on or before June 15, 2016 5. Government Bills that were introduced in the House on or before June 15, 2016 shall have the question put on Second Reading motions on or before October 13, 2016. For that purpose, the following applies on October 13, 2016. (

a) If the Second Reading motion has not yet been moved, the Minister is to move the motion, with the Minister, the Official Opposition Critic and one Independent Member each having the opportunity to speak for 10 minutes, followed by an up to 15 minute question and answer period for each Bill. (

b) The House shall not see the clock until all such Second Reading questions have been put. (

c) Points of Order and Matters of Privilege are to be set aside until the Second Reading questions have been put. (

d) Divisions on these motions cannot be deferred. Completion of Committee Stage of Government Bills introduced on or before June 15, 2016 6. Committee stage on these Government Bills are to be completed no later than November 3, 2016. The following rules apply to any Committee sitting on November 3, 2016 to consider such Bills. (

a) The Committee shall not rise until clause by clause is completed and the questions to report the Bills have been put to the Committee. (

b) If the Committee has not completed public presentations, it must close public presentations by 9:00 p.m. By unanimous consent the deadline can be extended to 10:00 p.m. The public has the ability to provide written submissions for an additional 24 hours. (

c) At 11:00 p.m. any member of the Committee who wishes to move an amendment to a Bill must file 20 copies of the amendment with the Clerk of the Committee, and the Clerk must distribute the amendment to members of the Committee. After that time, an amendment may be moved only if copies of it were filed with the Clerk and distributed as required by this rule. (

d) At midnight, the Chair of the Committee must interrupt the proceedings and, without further debate or amendment (other than an amendment distributed as required by paragraph (c)), put every question necessary to complete clause -by-clause consideration of the Bills under consideration. (

e) The committee must report the Bills to the House at its next sitting. In the event that the Committee fails to repo rt the Bills at that sitting, the Bills are deemed to be reported to the House, as amended by the Committee (if applicable) and the report is deemed to be received by the House at that sitting. Points of Order and Matters of Privilege are to be set aside u ntil clause by clause consideration of the Bills has been completed and the questions to report the Bills have been put to the Committee. Completion of Report Stages of Government Bills introduced on or before June 15, 2016 7.

Report Stage on these Governm ent Bills are to be completed on or before November 9, 2016. For that purpose, the following rules apply on November 9, 2016. (

a) The House is to not see the clock or adjourn until the Speaker has put the question on all applicable Report Stage Amendments.

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1211 (

b) If by 3:30 p.m. Routine Proceedings has not concluded, the Speaker must terminate Routine Proceedings and proceed to Orders of the Day. (

c) At 4:00 p.m. the Speaker will interrupt debate and put all questions on the remaining applicable Report Stage Amendments wi th no further debate or amendment. (

d) If any applicable Report Stage Amendments have not been moved, the sponsor(

s) of the Amendment(

s) are to move the Report Stage Amendments without debate. (

e) Points of Order and Matters of Privilege are to be set aside until all votes are completed. (

f) Divisions on Report Stage Amendments for these Bills cannot be deferred. Completion of Concurrence and Third Reading for Government Bills introduced on or before June 15, 2016 8. The questions for Concurrence and Third Readings on these Government Bills are to be put on or by November 10, 2016. For that purpose, the following rules apply on November 10, 2016. (

a) The House is to not see the clock or adjourn until all such questions have been put and Royal Assent has been granted. (

b) If by 3:30 p.m. Routine Proceedings has not concluded, the Speaker must terminate Routine Proceedings and proceed to Orders of the Day. (

c) At 4:00 p.m. the Speaker will interrupt debate and put all questions on the remaining Bills with no further debate or amendment. (

d) If Concurrence and Third Reading motions have not been moved, Ministers are to move the motions without debate or amendment. (

e) Points of Order and Matters of Privilege are to be set aside until all votes are completed. (

f) Divisions on Concurrence and Thi rd Reading for these Bills cannot be deferred. Commencement of the Second Session of the 41 st Legislature 9. The Second Session of the 41 st Legislature shall begin on Monday, November 21, 2016 with the presentation of the Speech from the Throne. Usual sitting hours for November Sittings 10. The House shall sit during its usual sitting hours from November 21, 2016 until December 2, 2016 (the “November Sittings”). Completion of the Address in Reply debate 11.

The votes required to complete consider ation of the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne must be held no later than December 2, 2016. If the votes are held on December 2, 2016, the House is to not see the clock or rise before these votes are concluded. Opposition and Independent Members 12. From the beginning of the Fall Sittings to the end of the November Sittings, the House shall: (

a) Consider three Opposition Day Motions sponsored by Members of the Official Opposition. (

b) Debate at Second Reading and vote on three Private Members’ Bill sponsored by Members of the Official Opposition. (

c) Debate at Second Reading and vote on one Private Members’ Bill sponsored by an Independent Member. (

d) Debate and vote on one Private Members’ Resolution sponsored by an Independent Member. Madam Speaker: Is the member speaking to the motion? Mr. Goertzen: Yes. Just briefly, Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) and the member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard). Just by explanation, the House will know that there were rules tha t were put in place with the previous election that were also spearheaded by the member for River Heights and the former member for Kildonan, Mr. Chomiak.

Those rules didn't govern the spring election possibility because in our legislation the pattern is to have a fall election, and so this particular agreement needed to be struck to govern this period before the full effect of the rules would start later this year. And I appreciate the opportunity to work with the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) and the m ember for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard). * (14:40)

1212 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 Madam Speaker: Any further debate on the motion? Some Honourable Members: Question. Madam Speaker: The question before the House is the motion moved by the Government House Leader (Mr. Goertzen). Is it the will of the House to accept the motion? [Agreed] * * * Mr. Goertzen: Would the House please resolve into Committee of Supply? Madam Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EXECUTIVE COUNCIL * (15:00) Mr. Chairperson (Dennis Smook): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for Executive Council. As previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Mr. Deputy Chair, you're doing a fine job. I can say that as someone who had to sit in that chair for more than a few hours in our previous iteration down in this building. My question for the Premier is, first one –start pretty simple–is $4,000 a lot of money? Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): I suppose it would depend on the circumstances, what one needed to buy at the time, or if one was coming from a place where I came from of relatively modest circum - stances. I think it would depend on the time of life or the financial circumstances of the person who–I don't know. The member would have to elaborate a little bit more on who the person was because it would depend, I suppose, on their circumstances whether it was a lot or not much or, you know, I don't how to answer that. Mr. Altemeyer: Yes, thank you for that.

If, let's say, your income is roughly around $13,000 a year, would $4,000 be a lot of money? Mr. Pallister: Again, it would depend on a lot of factors. I've worked over the years with lots of folks who had low incomes but they had other assets, so for a person like that, $4,000 might not be as important. If they had no other assets, I think it would probably be a fair bit. If they were just living on their income, like cheque to cheque, for sure that would be a fair piece because it would be about four months of their –would represent three and a half or four months of income. Mr. Altemeyer: Yes.

Thank you for that answer as well. The reason I ask is, just reading in the pape r today, it sounds like the agreement that the vast majority of Canadian leaders are on side with around the CPP would increase the CPP by roughly $4,000 per person from about $13,000 a year to about $17,000 a year, and yet this government said no. So I come back to my original question: For someone who is only making 13 grand a year, would another four not make a significant difference in their life? Mr.

Pallister: Well, it's interesting the member chooses $4,000 because the average income family in Winnipeg would pay $4,000 a year more in taxes than if they lived in Regina because of the overspending and high tax policies of the previous administration. So, frankly, if it wasn't for those policies, Manitobans would have, arguably, $4,000 more now to de al with. They'd have it to invest or save for retirement, but they don't because of the high- tax and high- spend policies of the previous administration. Mr.

Altemeyer: I don't know if the Premier would be capable, but I'd be very interested to see his breakdown of that claim. Would he be willing to provide that? Mr. Pallister: Well, I think the member has lots of resources within the NDP to find those numbers since it was that government that raised the taxes, first broadening the PST on things like home insurance, an essential item for most people to protect their assets, their principal asset. One of

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1213 their–often one of their major assets that they depend upon for retirement income would be home equity, so protecting it would be vital. And, of course, the government raised the PST after that, but it did broaden it, and before they broadened it, Manitoba homeowners didn't pay PST on the insurance on their homes, so they had the 7 per cent and then later it was 8 per cent more that they could choose to inves t in, you know, retirement savings, or in any other way they saw fit, for that matter.

So, I mean, that was an erosion of the ability of Manitoba families to save, certainly. Then, of course, there was the tax the administration–and this was after they w ent to those same doors and promised they wouldn't raise the taxes. Remember that, Mr. Chair? But then they also put a new tax on the benefits for everybody who works in the province.

So, for example, if you were a working person who had some benefits –fortunate enough to have a benefits program through your employer, in partnership with your employer, in most cases you would pay a premium for that, you know, to protect yourself in case you needed additional medical support or a medical supplementary plan or a disability–if you were disabled or lost your life and things like that. * (15:10) So these benefits packages are paid for, often a shared cost between employers and employees, like the CPP, which isn't government -funded, of course, but is funded solely by the contributions of working men and women and is not a government -funded issue.

The previous administration added PST onto those benefits so that both employer and employee paid an additional 7 per cent and then it was 8, of course, the year later–8 per cent on that. So, this was also money that Manitobans didn't have. So those are just two examples, and, of course, as the member knows, by raising the PST by one point in '13 the additional revenue taken from Manitoba families, working families, retirees as well, was in the area of about two hundred and seventy, two hundred and seventy -five million dollars a year, and that was in '13.

So, gee, '14, '15, '16–that's over three years, just the PST alone, the 1 per cent, that's up over $800 million, a nd then you've got a number of fee increases. So the member, I'm sure, could get the breakdown from people within his own organization and find that by saying a billion dollars, I'm actually understating the tax grab and the fee grab that his administratio n did on Manitobans after promising not to. Mr. Altemeyer: So I take that as a no, then. The question originally, just to bring this back over the runway, was could the Premier (Mr.

Pallister) back up his claim that taxes have increased by $4,000–and he's unable to do that, or unwilling to, which is an interesting response for someone who just said no to putting $4,000 extra into everyone's pockets who would be accessing the CPP. In fact, it goes even further than that, Mr. Deputy Chair. The Premier referenced resources that may be available to us in our capacity as the official opposition. Well, in fact, all Manitobans have fewer resources at their disposal to hold this government accountable and see what's going on because they got rid of the affordability

section of the budget which actually lays out all of the different taxes and benefits that are available across the country in all the categories that we all pay and in the categories that we all receive. All that information has just magically disappeared. So, for the Premier to suggest that the information is available, it's not available anymore, and it does fall on him to justify his decisions. But he's not willing to do that, so that's fine. We'll come back to the CPP in another way.

Government's responses, both from the Premier and from the Finance Minister today were–how to put this diplomatically, muddled? Why did you say no in Vancouver? Mr. Pallister: Well, the member's emotion al tirade and rant was loaded with factual inaccuracies, so I won't bother responding to any of them because there wouldn't be adequate time. I'll simply say that we did not say no, engaged in the dialogue that needs to be engaged in on this important issue, and we'll make sure to get it right and get it right for Manitobans, something that the previous administration did not do and it's something that we will do.

Mr. Altemeyer: So consultation, then, is where this government wants to go before it makes a decision about whether or not $4,000 is a worthwhile investment for people only making $13,000 a year. I think the vast majority of Manitobans can do some quick math and reach a pretty easy conclusion as to what the answer in Vancouver should have been, and, in fact, every other government in Canada reached that decision. Quebec is a separate case; they are also enhancing their pension plan, albeit it's not

1214 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 part of the CPP. Manitoba's the lone pariah standing against progress–important social progress. The CPP is the single biggest reason that poverty rates among seniors declined dramatically after it was introduced in Canada. So for the Premier (Mr. Pallister) to suggest that $4,000 may only be important in certain circumstances, well, for the tens of tho usands of Manitobans who access the CPP, they're listening right now and they're not all that impressed. I'm wondering who did the Premier consult when he decided to raise his salary. Mr.

Pallister: Again, the member fails to do any adequate research to prepare him for the participation that he's now engaging in in this Estimates committee, bringing the level of debate down considerably. He has no understanding of the independent compensation process which we agreed to, and all parties agreed to abide by. It's clear in making an accusation that is totally false and without any support on the basis of fact. The fact of the matter is, of course, that we abide by and support the independent establishment of pay and perks by an independent arbiter, not ourselv es.

And so the member's accusation on that front is totally false. Also, his assertion that someone making $13,000 would see $4,000 of this increase is a pipe dream and novel in its ingenuity, but not by any means supportable by the facts. He doesn't seem to understand that the CPP is funded totally by employers and employees, and not by some government somewhere else that has a magic vault with money in it.

And so what he is asserting is that somehow there's a bunch of found money for low -income peoples t hat they can find from somebody else when in fact, low income people contributing to CPP will benefit from their own contributions over a period of time, and, hopefully they'll have matching opportunities unless they're self-employed, in which case they themselves as employer and employee will contribute doubly to the plan. This is not an amount that's supportable by any tiny degree of research.

When the member talks about a $4,000 bonus, he doesn't understand the basic CPP proposal that's before Canada right now, and I suggest that he hone his questions to base them more on factual assertion than on fancy. Mr. Altemeyer: Well, it is notoriously easy to get under this Premier's skin; it's fairly well documented, looks like we're going to be treated to that again this afternoon.

The details of the CPP proposal as I understand it is, these are the details that I don't know of course, is that it would start in 2019, be phased in over seven years, and provide $4,000 extra to people accessing the CPP at that time. And of course it would be funded by employers and by employees. But this is the rub, this is the rub isn't it? This Premier doesn't really advocate for the employees; he's just here to defend the employers. The employers don't want to have to pay an e xtra premium, and he's lined up solidly with them, is that not right, sir? Mr.

Pallister: Well, the man's got a career in stand up, it'll be brief because it's not that funny. But he certainly doesn't have a career as a legislator if he doesn't do his homework on issues. Now he throws out a number as if it applied to everyone in every income bracket, $4,000. The actual proposal before us doesn't bear any resemblance to what he's just put on the record here. And so his ideological fervour isn't matched by one's willingness to do some homework, and that's too bad. I admire intelligence and my questioners, I've had great questions from the member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Lindsey) for example, who'd done his homework. And I've had great questions from the member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Kinew) as well. But the member does a disservice to this committee and the members on it when he comes in here ill -prepared to make any argument based on fact. I encourage him to, you know, maybe take a break, go read the thing, become f amiliar with the proposal and come back with some reasonably intelligent questions. In the meantime, he's just wasting the time of this committee and its members. Mr.

Altemeyer: Well, to bring it back to, as the Premier just said, that there are different circumstances everywhere, he just previously made a blanket statement of our government having increased taxes by $4,000. He was unable or unwilling to provide any documentation of how that would apply, and under our government of course, we did lay out t he affordability advantage of Manitoba. We used several different income categories every single time and showed how families of different makeups, with different numbers of kids, with different amounts of income,

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1215 would fare in Manitoba compared to the oth er provinces. He wants to accuse me of using blanket statements; he used it himself and was unable to justify it. So I come back to it. Mr. Premier, would you please explain to the Manitobans, thousands of them, who would benefit from you simply signing on to the rest of the country to improve the CPP, why you didn't do it? * (15:20) Mr. Pallister: Well, I'm curious as to why the member didn't advocate for CPP expansion for 17 years. He failed the people of Manitoba in that respect.

We're part of the dialogue that he failed to be part of. Also, in respect of the affordability act, the member hilariously claims that it's somehow an indication of the well -being of the people of the province, when, actually, what it does, it's a contrivance that only measures three things. It measures the amount that Manitobans pay for hydro, MPI and natural gas, three government essentially distributive bodies for government monopolies. See, what he conveniently forgot to mention in this affordability measurement was income taxes.

So, when you look at a hous ehold's expenditures you'll find that, in most cases, apart from a mortgage on their property, perhaps, the biggest expense they'll have is taxes. But, you know, the government – previous government thought it could measure affordability by leaving out the m ost important category of expenditure for Manitoba families. That's not an accurate measure of affordability.

And, by ignoring the tax level, the tax burden, and by imposing higher taxes on Manitobans the previous government did more to erode the ability of Manitobans to afford to do things like save for a child's education or maybe do a home repair or, in fact, save for retirement than any other government in Canada did. And so, when the member purports to care about the affordability of Manitoba's –Manitobans, he may care about it in theory, but in actual fact, when given an opportunity to stand up and support that affordability and move it forward, he failed, and so did his colleagues. Mr.

Altemeyer: So, if the Premier's (Mr. Pallister) so concerned about affordability, why not sign on to the CPP? Mr. Pallister: Again, we're going to avail ourselves of an opportunity to discuss this. The member claims to have discussed with tens of thousands of Manitobans how they feel about this decision we've made to actually give this some thought. He claims that he's talked to tens of thousands of Manitobans. I'd be interested in him providing the committee with any evidence that he's talked to any more than 23 people and made them agree with him when he was having the conversation. Mr.

Altemeyer: Well, it's interesting the Premier thinks I've talked to that many people. I suppose I'm no more popular than any other MLA. We get our phone calls. We get our emails. It hasn't been 10,000. I never said I'd talked to 10,00 0. I said there's thousands of people who will benefit from getting the CPP. They want to know, and I am asking on their behalf, whether I've talked to them or not, why you're denying them an increase in CPP that every single person receiving CPP in ever y other of the eight provinces is going to be getting. Where are you on this? Mr.

Pallister: Again, the member reveals his confusion in his

preamble. He doesn't seem to understand that in having a dialogue about an important issue such as this it is quite possible to give consideration to facts as opposed to fancy or old ideology. He advances a position that we have not taken; chooses to misrepresent his consultation; now admits that he didn't consult with tens of thousands of people, as he purported to say earlier; and actually has left out Manitobans in the previous opportunity he had to govern and make decisions, entirely, going so far as to have phony budget consultations which were not in–didn't result, of course, in a budget.

And, you know, in the two years prior, having what were so-called budget consultations, where no one came forward, not one Manitoban came forward and told the Finance minister they wanted the PST raised, and then went ahead and raised it anyway. So the member need not give this committee lectures about consultation. We –you know, on the one hand, he says why didn't you make an instant decision and jump on board, and on the other hand he says you should consult; I've consulted. Well, you know, we believe that Manitobans deserve to have retirement plans that work for them.

We know that Manitobans have suffered from record increases in tax under the previous administration that have eroded their ability to save for retirement

1216 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 and to secure a financial future. And we're looking for ways to remedy that, starting with a budget that for the first time in many years does not hike taxes. This is a significant step in the right direction, something that will leave more money in the hands of Manitobans, in addition to things –initiatives long overdue, like indexing the tax brackets to and–the rate of inflation as opposed to nefariously sneaking more money out of Manitobans' pocketbooks and off their kitchen tables so that the government can spend it.

We're going to index the brackets to infl ation. We're going to index the basic personal exemption as well so that more people are taken off the tax rolls who are in low-income circumstances. But, of course, our goal is to make sure that all Manitobans at every income level are able to construct, with the support of one aspect, not exclusively, that being CPP, but others as well: personal savings, home equity, other avenues as well, that they'll be able to acquire the financial security they want to have in retirement.

That's an important goal, and it's one we want to see accomplished, and we'll work with Manitobans to help them achieve those goals, but most certainly it should not be misrepresented by the member or anyone else that we are against retirement security, when, in fact, we are certai nly for it and will do everything we can to make sure that Manitobans achieve the financial security they deserve to get in their lives. Mr. Altemeyer: So, if the CPP isn't on the table with this government, what other model is he looking at? Mr. Pallister: Again, the

preamble's false, so I can't respond. There's no question there I can answer. Mr. Altemeyer: We'll try this again. Let's say that whatever consultation this government feels it needs to do, despite the fact that debate about the CPP has been all over the media for years, that, in fact, our previous government played a major role in bringing the conversation as far along as it now is. Vancouver yesterday was t he finish line, and the Premier (Mr. Pallister) yanked his Finance Minister back and said, no, no, no, we don't want to be doing that just yet. We don't want to actually accomplish something.

We're going to do something else for some reason at some time that has not been identified yet. So, if the Premier has a problem with the CPP, what's he going to do instead for low -income people on the CPP who would be getting $4,000, according to the reports being made publicly, according to the federal Finance Minister; it's about a one third increase in the CPP amount; I'm not making these numbers up. What's he going to do instead? Mr.

Pallister: Though I do not discount the very real possibility that one of the revolving door Finance ministers the previous administration had installed for weeks at a time may have at some point during a Finance m inisters' meeting waxed eloquent on the possibility that Manitoba and Canadian workers should pay more premiums so that the benefits could be made greater over time, and I do not dismiss that there is a possibility that might have happened; the member coul d get verification from one of the previous what, I don't know how many Finance ministers the previous administration had; there were a number; maybe he could get verification of that.

If he'd like to produce a press release that the previous administration did espousing their fervent belief that the CPP benefit should be raised, he could produce it, table it, we could discuss it. But, otherwise, it's just his say-so, and based on his previous

preambles, which have been erroneous in so many ways, I'd ask him to produce some evidence that his –the previous administration ever sincerely espoused in a genuine or effective way any kind of expansion of the CPP program. If they did, I welcome the evidence and would look forward to having a discussion on the basis o f that proof. Otherwise, I just simply don't believe him. I do, though, believe that during the election campaign, that particular administration would've said just about anything to try to get support and, in fact, did. Mr.

Altemeyer: So the Prem ier made Manitoba the only ones outside of a new deal, many years in the works, on the CPP. He's not going to approve that until he talks to people. He hasn't indicated who he's going to talk to, and he has no alternative pension scheme up his sleeve to offer. Manitobans should be reassured by this –why, exactly? Mr. Pallister: Well, Manitobans are assured. Business optimism has quadrupled since this new government came in, so Manitobans are assured, certainly, in that respect, in the SME sector.

Manitobans generally are very optimistic now about the future; they were not before, and they had good reason not to be. * (15:30)

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1217 The member raises the point –he keeps raising the point –that we are the only one. As I recall, Tommy Douglas was the only one. As I recall , in many other respects of leadership around the world in global history, there was only one, and standing up for Manitobans is what we're going to do, and if we're the only one, so be it.

The reality of the situation that we face is as Canada's newest government, that we came into the middle of a discussion where the previous administration had not played at any significant role, had not demonstrated any singular leadership in any respect, and where we are now being listened to as a voice at the table and we will use that opportunity to advance Manitoba - beneficial aspects in this debates process. I would encourage the member to understand that simply saying, you're alone, doesn't make a person wrong. Mr. Altemeyer: Premier is certainly the only one.

When the Premier becomes the only one standing up for a revolutionary new social service, as Tommy Douglas did, which is now –you know, he's recognized as our greatest Canadian by some exercises: health care, our universal health -care system, one of the things Canadians are consistently the most proud of. When the Premier is standing up advocating for something like that, that would be standing alone on a good purpose. When he's standing up like J.S.

Woodsworth did, former MP for Wolseley, and fighting, sometimes even from prison, for a pension plan for workers, well, then, yes, that would be standing up on your own. Standing up on your own and blocking the improvement of an existing pension program, not quite in the same league. Who's the Premier going to consult with now that he's refused to pass the CPP improvement? Mr. Pallister: Well, again, the pure ignorance and ill-informed nature of the member's

preamble has to be commented upon. The member makes the claim that somehow our concerns –and we are addressing Manitobans' priorities in addressing our concerns in the appropriate way, in a dignified way. He is asserting that somehow we're blocking something which can be approved by seven provinces repre - senting no less than two thirds of the population of the country, and so he doesn't understand the basic process of how these plans are approved. That's, of course, clear in his

preamble. That being said, you know, I have tremendous respect for Tommy Douglas and J.S. Woodsworth and know, as the member should, t hat they and people like Stanley Knowles who handed me my university degrees at our convocation in Brandon– my school was Tommy Douglas's school, J.S. Woodsworth's school. I have tremendous respect for those gentlemen, but they were willing to stand up for their people in a way they felt appropriate, and that is precisely what the new PC government of Manitoba is doing now on behalf of Manitobans.

We're using the opportunity to advantage Manitobans as best we can not exclusively on this file, but on many others. Just –may benefit the member–and I –sincerely, I offer him this just as a way to understand a little bit better what exactly we're discussing here. The program as proposed changes the CPP to increase the contributions so that they are able to fund additional benefits in a variety of categories. The changes in contribution would begin in 2019. They would be phased in over the following five years. The actual inclusion of larger –of a higher maximum would begin later, in about eight years' time.

There wo uld be larger benefits –and this is the major change in the proposal, by the way –would increase the payments over the period of 24 and 25 by up to $82,000. So the major change in the plan is to enhance the ability of people at middle and higher income brackets to actually be eligible for the CPP. In reference to the member's comments about minimum income workers, a change in the percentage from 25 to 33 and a third per cent of the yearly maximum pensionable earnings would mean approximately an 8 per cent in crease in benefit would occur to them.

But the maximum benefit would go from 25 to 33 and a third. So, in the example the member gave, and I'm just doing this math in my head so it could have a plus -minus, a $13,000- income person, assuming yearly pensiona ble earnings were that amount–well, it would not be; it would be less than that because there's a basic amount that is not included. But let's for argument's sake say the basic amount–and then they're making 13 over that, fair enough. So they're making $13,000. Currently, that would be a $3,500 eligibility for pension, and it'll go up by 8 per cent, so a little bit more.

So it's a confusing thing here because the yearly maximum 'pensable' earnings right now is $13,400, so I –we're using an example that might confuse things. But, suffice to say, it's an 8 per cent increase in that benefit. So the –that, if a person's making $13,000, their rate–the maximum rate they could get

1218 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 in pension is a quarter of that. So they would get a CPP of a quarter of $13,000–$3,250. That's under the present system. Under the new system, the amount would go up from a quarter of that $13,000 to a third. So now you're talking about $4,333. So, the difference isn't the $4,000 the member talked about; it's a lot less than that. None - theless, I'm not submitting that it isn't an important change in that respect. The workers' benefits, though, have to come from somewhere. And where they come from is higher premiums paid by those same workers.

So what–part of what the federal proposal does is it creates–like, there's a tax credit for your premium on paying into CPP right now, but there's no tax deductibility. They're going to introduce tax deductibility; that's the proposal. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable First Minister's time has expired. Mr. Altemeyer: That was an entertaining tour of the bowels of the CPP program in a theoretical situation. I love how the Premier (Mr. Pallister), previously, was saying that I didn't understand what was on the table and then had to consult with the staff so that he could get that back over the runway.

But let's just take all of that and put it aside and come back to the basic question. If the Premier has a detailed understanding of the enormous benefits that this proposal would have for people on CPP , what's not to like? Why not pass it? Mr. Pallister: Well, there's no sense trying to put – pour any more tea into a –guyabano tea into a cup that's already full, Madam –Mr. Chair, so I won't bother trying to educate the member further.

I thought that he m ight be interested in the facts and I thought it might help inform him in his questions but, apparently, it's not really a lot of point in that because he knows enough now to make the kinds of arguments he's making. He doesn't need any help from me or anyone else. Mr. Altemeyer: Well, we'll add it to the list of things that haven't been answered. I'll go back to another one he didn't answer. Maybe he didn't hear the question. Who's the Premier going to be talking to, who is his government going to be talking to, as they debate whether or not improving the CPP is a good thing? Mr.

Pallister: We'll always act in the best interests of Manitobans as a government, something that Manitobans haven't seen for a long time. And on April 19th they rejected the premi se the member is starting from that his administration ever did that. I've emphasized already the importance of genuine listening, and the member appears unwilling to do that. Mr. Altemeyer: It's an odd answer for someone who wants to be, so claim, transparent and accountable. It doesn't sound like he's very interested in having open, honest dialogue with people at all.

I'll give him a more specific angle to the importance of proper consultation, and it's something he's going to run into time and time again in government. Oddly enough, the people that you are now in charge of, the government you're now in charge of, lots of people want to share their views, and they expect to have opportunities to do it. What specific measures is the Premier going to put in place to ensure that low -income people have a chance to share their views with his government on whether or not improvements to the CPP is a good idea? * (15:40) Mr.

Pallister: I don't need any instruction from the member in consulting with low -income people or with the marginalized in our society. I spent my entire political career doing that. So I'll continue to do that in the future, as I have in the past. Mr. Altemeyer: I don't suppose there'd be a timeline involved of when the Premier is going to hold these– shall we call them discussions if maybe consultation is too strong a word? When will the consultations or discussions be done so that the Premier can then realize that, yes, indeed, improving the CPP is a good thing to do? Mr.

Pallister: We'll continue to consult on a regular basis with Manitobans. Our caucus members, our new caucus members, in particular, have been, I think, tremendous additions to the Legislative Assembly and have already demonstrated their willingness and ability to actu ally reach out to Manitobans, hear what they have to say, gather facts not fantasy, as the member appears willing to put on the record, and actually engage in a constructive process, as have a number of the new members of the opposition demonstrated a will ingness and ability to do that, unlike some who returned here.

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1219 Mr. Altemeyer: If I were to fill out a FIPPA form and send it to the Premier's (Mr. Pallister) office asking who he's already met with about pensions, whose names would be on it? Mr. Pallister: Well, I encourage the member to investigate and do research. It's something he hasn't demonstrated any ability to do today, but perhaps he could start and he may like to file that form he was talking about. I'd welcome him doing that. Mr. Altemeyer: I'll consider it.

Would have been much easier, it'd save him staff time, becomes a more efficient government just to share the information right now in the public realm. I'll ask again: Has the Premier consulted with anyone already on pensions? Mr.

Pallister: I think Manitobans are still anxiously awaiting any evidence the previous administration– which the member was a part –would actually disclose any information in respect of shopping for goods or services, would actually share information on severance payments offered to former disgruntled members, would actually do anything but cover up and hide the information from Manitobans, going so far as to actually violate The Financial Administration Act of our province in not disclosing untendered contracts, covering those up. These are the kinds of things that we've inherited.

But we haven't inherited those habits from the member opposite, and nor will we. We're going to be moving to make the government of Manitoba more accountable and transparent in its operations as we move forward. We continue to focus on ways to do that and we will succeed. Mr. Altemeyer: So, just to recap, so far in Estimates today we've established that Manitoba is the only province that has refused to support an improvement to the CPP. The Premier has refused to indicate if he's met with anyone already about pensions who may have influenced his government's decision, odd though it was.

He's also refused to indicate what consultations or discussions are going to take place to help inform his government of what their position on CPP should be, and he's refused to give a timeline on when those discussions might be done. Mr. Premier, have I captured our moment together so far accurately? Mr. Pallister: No, the member hasn't captured any essence of reality in his

preambles up to this point, but I encourage him to continue to do his best to try. Mr. Altemeyer: Maybe a specific question will work better. Did the Premier or his Finance Minister meet with, let's say, the CFIB on pensi ons prior to Vancouver's meeting yesterday? Mr. Pallister: On the issue of consultation, perhaps the member would consider that in budget year 2001 when the administration of the day expanded the PST to include the non- farm use of fertilizers, insecticides, fungicides, herbicides, rodenticides and week control chemicals for–to the tune of $2 million of extra revenue.

Perhaps the member would like to outline for members of the committee who he consulted with or who his administration consulted with in that decision. Mr. Altemeyer: That's interesting, the Premier is now having to go back all the way to 2001 was it, for a decision made about insecticides and fungicides in order to dance around a question–pretty straightforward–about who he's talking to and wh o he's not going to talk to about CPP. Let's just try that one again. Did you meet with the CFIB, you or your Finance Minister, on pensions?

Did they give you advice on what they thought you should do and did you follow that advice? Mr. Pallister: Well, the quality of response is, I hope, in no way affected adversely by the lack of quality of the questions. But I will continue to emphasize to the member that, in terms of deliberation on important policy issues, we intend to consult with Manitobans, have and will continue to. But I did not see that demonstrated in the previous administration.

And so, again, for the member I'd have to ask him, when his administration broadened the PST to include the labour component of all contracts for mechanical, electrical contracting–that was in 2002, by the way –and took $10.6 million away from Manitobans in the process, who exactly did they consult with in that decision? Mr. Altemeyer: That's good; we're a whole year closer to the present. From 2001, 2002, that's progress. Looks like the Premier, for some reason, doesn't want to talk about who it is that he's talking about, and who he's talking to about pensions.

I wonder if there's any other organizations out there that he may have consulted with on this that he doe sn't want people to know about –Chamber of Commerce maybe?

1220 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 Mr. Pallister: I'd remind the member that, in 2004, when his government broadened the legal services to include them –to make them PST -able, accounting services, architectural services, engineering services, security services, and tap Manitobans to the tune of $23.9 million, that was –I believe–not done with any consultation. But I could invite the member to put on the record an outline for the members of the committee what consultation was actually d one on respect of that tax gouge? Mr. Altemeyer: As the Premier (Mr.

Pallister) has, no doubt, significant awareness, wasn't intimately involved in those decisions, but what he has to realize is it's now his name and his government's name that is at the bottom of the page when it comes to today's decisions. And, at the bottom of the page which talks about how the entire country except Manitoba is improving pensions for Canadians –clear across the country –his name is not on the bottom of that page. He is t he only one missing.

Could he please give this committee, give this province, give these citizens any indication of when he's going to make a decision on the CPP, and what, if any, role citizens are going to get to play in informing the Premier of what his decision should be. Mr. Pallister: Again, the member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer)-'pompost'–Wolseley I'm sorry, actually put another falsehood on the record in respect of our positon, as he has done previously. And I would remind him, again, that not only are we actively engaged in standing up for Manitoba's best interests in this important debate, but we will continue to be.

And I would remind him, as well, that there have been–nor are there planned for some years, any significant changes to the CPP. I would encourage him to understand that, for the simple lack–I expect he's motivated by the lack of progress in the previous 17 years under his party in this province, and I understand that he's anxious for political credit for whatever happens here. * (15:50) But I would remind him that the CPP changes that we have all been discussing, much I'm sure that he is unaware of, do not occur until 2019. Mr.

Chairperson: Before I accept the member from Wolseley, I would like to take a moment to caution all hon ourable members on their language in committee today. While I recognize that at times discussions in committee can be heated, I would ask that members keep their remarks temperate and worthy of this Assembly and the office that we all hold. Mr. Altemeyer: Couldn't agree more, Mr.

Deputy Chair, and I'll just point out that while the Premier just referenced discussions that are happening around pensions, he's apparently not prepared to tell anyone what discussions he's having and, in fact, he's deliberately b locking–so far–Manitobans from having any discussions with him or with his government on this crucial policy issue where his government has yet again dropped the ball. Let's –it's becoming difficult to keep track of the number of times that has happened in their short lifespan, but we can definitely add this one to the list.

If my honourable colleague from Minto is so prepared, it's quite clear my questions are not going to receive answers today. I think that's a disservice to the function of Estimates and it is a disservice to the citizens of Manitoba, but I have done my best. So I turn it over to my honourable colleague. Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): And I guess, now for something completely different, as they say. I just want to ask the Premier a few ques tions that arise out of the Justice Estimates that were completed, and I've had a chance to read through the mandate letter that the Premier gave to the Attorney General.

There's 17 bullet points, none of which deal with crime prevention or public safety, but there is one item that I'll read out, and I'd really just like to give the Premier an opportunity to explain his vision. It didn't come through very clearly in the Justice Estimates, but I'm sure he can help us. The direction to the Justice Minister is to work to reduce the recidivism rate through an innovative social impact bond program, and I'd like the Premier to explain what his vision is for this and how he thinks it can be helpful. Mr.

Pallister: Sure, I thank the member for the first reasoned question of the session today. We understand that there's been some major progress made in terms of reducing recidivism in some other jurisdictions, not exclusively in England. There was a social impact project that was instituted there that involved youth offenders. I'd be more than welcome to –I don't have any information with me

June 21, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1221 today, but I know the member is interested in these issues and I'd undertake to get him some more information on that. The issue of recidivism, and the member as Justice Minister knows this far better than I, in Manitoba among youth offenders, not exclusively male offenders, though, the numbers for young males are shocking. They're –they are a real cause of concern.

So this project seemed to make some–cause some real headway, and so the part of the mandate was to research further and see if there were applicabilities on that type of a model that we could learn from for Manitoba. And, if it can assist us in reducing recidivism, I know the member would agree that would be a worthwhile outcome. Mr. Swan: I thank the Premier (Mr. Pallister ) for that, now I thank him, as well, for his undertaking to provide details on the program. Was it just one program or one example from England that this is based on, or are there other examples that the Premier is relying on? Mr.

Pallister: Honestly, I can't recall other examples though I think there are. That was the –that was one of the earliest ones. I think it was about five years ago, and I –my understanding of this –I–you know what I could undertake also is to direct the member to some of the research that's been –I think the Rockefeller Foundation in the United States has done a lot of specific research. I know here in Canada there haven't been many of these social partnerships, if you want to call t hem that, that have been driven forward under this model.

At this point in time, though, I am told there are three other provinces that are–either have established or are looking to establish these. I would explain further, for the member's benefit and members of the committee, these are not designed to be anything except innovative and experimental programs to try to find different ways of addressing social problems.

The general, I think, purpose of them is that, to– the Saskatchewan one, I have a little bit of familiarity with theirs–is working on helping teenage mothers and is focused on trying to find mechanisms for assisting them that may then be, as a consequence of the experiment, applicable to the system and could be used elsewhere throughout –whether it's a civil service model or some other model–could be used to assist in addressing those social concerns.

As far as other talks, and I don't claim to have tremendous expertise on this, I have –I'm reading with interest, always, and so I have offered t o the member to forward whatever research I've got at my disposal to him, because I know he'll be very interested in reading about this. I think this is one of those examples where we can all take a look at this and, setting aside partisanship, hopefully w e can come up with some more innovative approaches than perhaps we've–than others have –that others have learned from, that we can learn from here in Manitoba.

We do lead in some categories of social problems, certainly, as the member knows. And so, it would be important for us to look for ways to lead in finding solutions as well. Mr. Swan: I thank the Premier for that additional undertaking, and I do promise that I will read what information is passed along. The Premier talks about it being a social partnership. What kind of organizations does the Premier see the province partnering with to bring in a social impact bond program? Mr.

Pallister: Again, I'll say to the member as a qualifier that I'm going to describe this as best I can in general terms, but my understanding is it's a partnership of expertise and a desire to see innovative solutions found with capital provided from the private sector and design leadership provided by the public sector with outcomes determined in consultation with the various partners so that it can be measured as to whether these pro - grams are actually achieving results. I think the time frames vary, depending on the nature of the programs.

For some, results may be measurable and achievable in a shorter time and for others it may take longer. But I think, generally, that's the concept. I know that there is –in Manitoba, there's a tremendous history, as the member knows, as all members know, of supporting worthwhile projects. We have–we lead the country in respect of charitable giving and volunteering, and I know there's no doubt that Manitobans are altruistic people who want to see social advance, and I won't start reciting examples.

All members know of them in their ridings and they know of them around the province, where peopl e have stepped up to the plate and helped on while causes. This is just, I think, conceptually, in its simplest form, one way of tapping into that desire to help and targeting it toward specific, innovative approaches

1222 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2016 that have hitherto not been utilized in certain areas of social policy. Mr. Swan: Yes, the Premier (Mr. Pallister) talks about capital from private sector but also talks about how charitable Manitobans are, and I have no issue with that; I think we all agree. Is it the Premier's vision that this is going to be a corporate model, where there will be investors seeking to get results and get a return on their investment, or is this, in the Premier's vision, a charitable model where Manitobans who are able to provide money are doing this out of the goodne

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-1-25b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 1st hansardpdf 25b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bb954f2e4ec019af876e730b5b1a6c7128ea652d

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).