Manitoba Hansard — 14 April 1964 (Sitting 70, 27th Legislature, 2nd Session)

27-2-70

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON BROKENHEAD BURROWS CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT-PLAINS. FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAMIOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKE SIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OS BORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RIVER HEIGH'l'S ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD- IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MA TTHEWS ST.

VITAL STE, ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-LANSDOWNE SPRING FIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. D. Watt Steve Patrick Hon,Robert G. Smellie, Q. C. R. 0, Lissaman E. R. Schreyer Mark G. Smerchanski Leonard A. Barkman Gordon W. Beard Hon. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E. McLean,Q. C. William Homer Hamilton S. Peters John P. Tanchak M. N. Hryhorczuk, Q. C. Emil Moeller Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon, Q. C. Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker B. P. Strickland Morris A. Gray James T. Mills Oscar F. Bjornson D. L.

Campbell Albert Vielfaure Lemuel Harris Hon. Waiter Weir Harry P. Shewman Hon. Obie Baizley Mrs. Carolyne Morrison Gordon E. Johnston Russell Paulley J. M. Froese Hon. Maitland B. Steinkopf,Q. C. Keith Alexander Hon. Abram W. Harrison Hon. George Hutton J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes Saul Cherniac k, Q. C. W. G. Martin Fred Groves Gildas Molgat T. P. Hillhous e, Q.C. Arthur E. Wright M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym James H. Bilton Hon. J. B. Carroll P. J. McDonald Donald Morris McGregor Richard Seaborn James Cowan, Q. C. Hon.

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THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, April 14, 1964 Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN, Q. C. (Attorney-General )(Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the sixth report of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR . CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments beg leave to present the following as their sixth report. Your Committee has considered Bills No. 80,

an Act for the Relief of Helen Radclyffe and Edward Frank Radclyffe; No. 88 ,

An Act to incorporate Eden Mental Health Centre; No; 120,

An Act to amend The Public Schools Act (2); and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your Committee has also considered Bills No. 57,

An Act to amend The Winnipeg Charter, 1956, and to validate By- laws Nos. 18854, 18872, 18883 and 1888 4; Ko. 85 , Ari Act respecting the Profession of Medicine; No. 90,

An Act to incorpor ate The Winnipeg Hebrew Free School; No. 108 ,

An Act to amend The Winnipeg Charter, 1956 (2); and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. Your Committee recommends that the Fees paid in connection with the following Bills be refunded, less the costs of Printing: No. 88,

An Act to incorporate Eden Mental Health Centre; No. 90,

An Act to incorporate The Winnipeg Hebrew Free School. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR . McLEAN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Healt h, that the Report of the Committee be received. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . McLEAN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, that the fees paid in connection with the following bills be refunded, less the cost of printing: No. 88,

An Act to incorpor-ate Eden Mental Health Centre; No. 90,

An Act to incor porate The Winnipeg Hebrew Free School. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. MR . M. A. GRAY (lnkster): Madam Speaker, you mentioned Hebrew Free School. I think in Committee that they deleted the word "Free. " Will you please correct this for record purposes? MADAM SPEAKER: The report is correct. When it will come into the Committee of the Whole the word "Free" will disappear. Introduction of Bills Committee of the Whole House MR .

McLEAN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Com mittee of the Whole to consider the proposed resolution standing in the Order Paper in my name. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): . . . the fact that the Honourable Minister didn't read the resolution on to the record -- (Interjection) -- Oh, I believe that's right.

Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR . McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been in formed of the, subject matter of the proposed resolution recommends it to the House. l\1R. CHAffiMAN:

Whereas the ..... . MR . McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, it would be satisfactory if it were read when I move the resolution in the House. This resolution, Mr. Chairman, carries out an arrangement we had spoke of earlier that certain bills referred to in the resolution would be referred to the Standing Committee on Statu tory Regulations and Orders for consideration after prorogation. It is in Committee at this stage because it involves the payment of expenses to those members who serve on committee. April 14, 1964. Page 1891

MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed? MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhine land}: I think I have made the request before that I honestly feel that my name should be placed on the list of the members of the committee, otherwise I will not receive the information that is available to other members of this House. Secondly, the First Minister mentioned on a previous occasion that I would be perfectly free to sit in on the committee but, as I have already pointed out, I will have no vote; secondly, the cost in connection with attending these meetings will not be paid for, it would have to be on my o'ivn expenses.

I feel that this is not an unreasonable request and therefore I would make the request formally to have my name put on the Com mittee. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier}(Wolseley}: Mr. Chairman, I think we should give con sideration to the honourable gentleman's request to be on this committee. The problem that it confronts us _with is that it upsets the balance of a count on the committee as between the repre sentation of the various parties , and that's a little bit of a problem.

However,· I imagine that if other groups in the .House had no objection to the government !J.dding one to �atch my honour able friend that we might be able to accommodate him by putting his name on the committee. Jf there is no objection to that we can give this some consideration, but I'd like to hear what the views are. MR. GIIDAS MOLGA'r (Leader of the Official Opposition}(Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, as . I recall the present formation of the committee there are six government members, two from the Opposition and one CCF for a total of nine. Is that correCt?

So what the honourable mem ber suggested --(Interjection} --Are there two from the CCF group?'--(Interjection) --Par don me. I haven't quite caught up the terminology yet but I guess the Saskatchewan election must be spilling over here. I notice the name isn '.t quite as definite. --(Interjection} --Better tell your protegees in Saskatchewan. In any case, that would leave it then two from our group, two from the NDP and one from the Social Credit Party. I would have no objection if the hon-· curable gentleman were added, .and if my honourable friends wanted to put one more on I see no difficulty to that. · MR.

E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead}: .. .... that their o�ficial name is still Liberal- Progressive, or has it been changed? MR� MOLGAT: I'm de lighted to answer that. It's Liberal and we use that terminology all the time. I might add that it's used in all provinces in that same way and there's no con fusion as does appear in my honourable friend's group. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party)(Radisson}: The termi- • nology. is Liberal, but not Progressive. ' MR.

ROBLIN: I rise to say that I think perhaps then we could accept an amendment in the committee here, or a suggestion in the committee that we add the name of the Member for Rhineland to this committee, and I will add my own name as the government member for the time being, on the understanding that after we have had some consultation among ourselves we may propose another name before the House rises.

I'd just like to say, however, that while I'm glad to oblige my honourable friend in this ·connection, I hope he doesn't consider it as � precedent .because we do have to balance off partY . . strength on these committees and as he's in a rather unique·pos ition --I think that's the cor rect way to describe him --he will understand that his 1/57th of the total doesn't help him out on every committee. But as he has made a particular request in this respect I think we should do our best to oblige him, and I would be happy to move, Mr.

Chairman, if this can be done properly. --and I look at the Clerk to find out if it�s so --that the names of .Froese and Roblin be added to the membership of this committee, and that will enable us to deal with the matter at the present time. MR. PAULLEY: I have no objection to this being done but I want it clearly understood, however, that if in future Houses there happens to be individual members of any ·political party, that they may be granted the same privilege as is being granted this afternoon. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I can give no undertaking to that effect at all.

The only undertaking I can give is my desire to accommodate my honourable friend who has made a particular request upon this particular occasion. It is only in that context that it can be con sidered, and I distinctly reserve the position that it is not a precedent. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairman, . the honourable Page 1892 April 14, 1964.

(Mr. Desjardins, Cont'd.) .•. member asked, it sounded to me like he wanted to be on the mailing list more than anything else. I don't see why there is any necessity of putting him on the committee. I think that the Leader of the NDP had a point there, that we might be in trouble later on. I think the main thing is that-as long as he knows what is going on -- this was his original request -- if he was on the mailing list, get all the information, and as he quoted the First Minister on a previous occasion saying that he would not have a vote. I think we should stay with that. MR . FROESE: No, Mr.

Chairman," I asked specificall y to be on the committee so that I could hear the discussions and also participate in them. MR . GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I have no objection to the Honourable Member from Rhine land to be on the committee. As a matter of fact I welcome it. I think that he has developed in the last couple -of years to a great extent and he now makes a very useful contribution to the debates in this House, but I would not agree to name one individual as a Party. So I am whole heartedly in favour of having the Honourable Member from Rhineland on the committee, but not as the Honourable Leader of a Party.

MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I think I'd like to make my position clear in this regard.

Pm not subscribing to this on the basis of another party being represented, but the honourable member is a member of Law Amendments Committee and a number of the bills that have now been sent over to this new committee would normally have gone to Law Amendments, and I think that in this particular case, for this one instance --' and I certainly don•t consider it as a precedent as far as I'm concerned-- that he has requested that he be put on this special com mittee where these bills will be going and I, for one, am prepared to give him that right. MR .

ROBLIN: I think that's a very fair statement of the case and one which I would cer tainly adopt as my own. MR . PAULLEY: .. .. . Mr. Chairman, that if this request comes from any individual member who is not connected with a.recognized party in the House, this will have to be con sidered at that time. MR . ROBLIN: Well I repeat w-hat I said, that we simply cannot regard it as a precedent. It was a particular request for a particular reason. MR . CHAIRMAN: .. . .. come before the House. MR . ROBLIN: I think, Mr. Chairman, that an amendment has been prepared for me here.

The advice I have is that I should make this motion in the House after the com mittee has reported. MR. CHAIDMAN: Resolution be adopted? MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, .. .. began, has the resolution now been read onto the record? It'll be when the 7 -- (Interjection) -- thank you. MR. CHAIDMAN: Resolution be adopted? Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has adopted a certain resolution, directed me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. MR . W. G. MARTIN (St.

Matthews): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rhineland, that the report of the Committee be received. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education;

Whereas the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba at its Second Session of the 27th Legislature, pursuant to Rule 67 of the Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceeding of the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba, appointed a Standing Committee of the House on Statutory Regula tions and Orders on Thursday, the 13th day of February, 1964. And

Whereas the Legislative Assembly at this Session gave second readings to the follo wing Bills, and referred them to the Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders: Bill No. 39,

an Act respecting Joint Stock Companies and Other Corporations; Bill No. 40,

an Act requiring the Registration of Real Estate Brokers and Real Estate Salesmen; Bill No. 89-,

an Act to provide for Re lief from Certain Unconscionable Transactions; Bill No. 107,

an Act respecting the Vesting and Porta.:. bility of Pension Benefits under Pensions and respecting the Solvency of Pension Plans; Bill No. 113,

an Act requiring the Regis tration of Mortgage Brokers; Bill No. 123,

an Act respecting the Law of Partnership; Bill No. 121,

an Act respecting the Registration of Business Names April 14, 1964. Page 1893

(Mr. McLean, Cont'd.) ... and Partnerships; And

Whereas it is deemed advisable that the Bills above mentioned, and referred to the Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders be considered by this Committee, and that the Committee hear representations with re spect to these Bills during recess after prorogation, and report at the next Session of the Legislature. . · Therefore

be it resolved: That the Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Or ders, appointed at the Second Session' of the 27th Legislature on Thursday, the 13th day of February, 1964, consider and hear representations with respect to the following Bills: Bill No. 39,

An Act respecting Joint Stock Companies and Other Corporations; Bill No. 40,

An Act requiring the Registration of Real Estate Brokers and Real Estate Salesmen; Bill No. 89,

An Act respecting the Vesting and Portability of Pension Benefits under Pensions and respecting the Solvency of Pension Plans; Bill No. 113,

An Act req�,tiring the Registration of Mortgage Brokers; Bill No. 123,

An Act respecting the Law of Partnership; Bill No. 121,

An Act re specting the Registration of Business·Names and Partnerships. And be it further resolved: That the said Standing Committee of the House shall have power to sit during the present Session and in recess after prorogation to hear representations and to report to this House on the matters referred to them at the next Session of the Legisla ture.

And That the Provincial Treasurer be authoriZed to pay out of the Consolidated Fund, to the members of the said Committee, the amount of expenses incurred by the members in atten ding the sittings of the Committee, or expenses incurred by the members in the performances of duties ordered by the Committee, in recess after prorogation, as are approved by the Comptroller-General.

And that the Provincial Treasurer be authoriZed to pay out of the Con solidated Fund all other expenses of a kind and nature required to assist the said Committee in carrying out the provisions of this resolution and provided the same have received the prior approval of the Treasury Board. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, there's only one question I'd like to ask the Minis ter. In the third last paragraph, "that this Committee report to the House at the next Session of the Legislature," is this exactly what was meant or is it the next regular Session? MR.

McLEAN: Madam Speaker, under the Rules it must be to the next Session. We had to use the words there although I think we recogniZe that if by chance there were an irregular Session this motion would have to be presented again in order to keep the Committee in exis- tence until a regular Session. . Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to attract your attention to the gallery on my right where there are some 32 Grade 6 students from the Lord Nelson School under the direction of their teacher, :Mr. Johannson.

This school is situated in the con stituency of the Honourable the Member for Inkster. We welcome you here this afternoon and hope that all that you see. and hear in this Legislative Assembly will be of help to you in your studies. May this visit be an inspiration to you and stimulate your interest in provincial affairs. Come back and visit us again. Orders of the Day. HON.

GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce)(Fort Rouge): Before the Orders are called, I would like to provide my honourable friend from Gladstone .with what little information I have respecting the pipeline between Edmonton and Hudson Bay as referred to in the April 6th issue of "Oil Week". I might tell my honourable friend that this also is our only source of information. We have not yet been approached by this company, The Tundra Pipe lines Limited, and we are not familiar with their plans.

I believe that their engineering and market studies are stil� not complete and we will be interested in any information that. we can secure about them and certainly if they seek our assistance in any way we will be glad to talk to tliem. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): I would like to thank my honourable friend for the information that he has supplied the House with but I would like to ask him a further ques tion. Is the company that is referred to in this

article a company that is incorporated in the Province of Manitoba and is their head office in the City of Winnipeg? MR. EVANS: ..• ... that from the Registrar of Companies. Page 1894 April 14, 1964.

HON. GEOBGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture)(Bockwood-I berville): Madam Speaker, at this morning's session the Honourable Member for Inkster enquired into the effe cts of the recent precipitation on the flood forecast. My advisors tell me that the precipitation has been concentrated over the Bed Biver Valley in Manitoba. It was much lighter over the United States portion of the Bed Biver watershed and extremely light over the Assiniboine Basin. It will therefore have very little effe ct. on previously predicted Bed and Assiniboine Biver peak flows.

In fac t there is no change in the previously predicted Assiniboine flows , while the peak flow on the Bed Biver at Winnipeg is predicted at 32,000 cubic feet per second with a stage of 13 City of Winnipeg datum. This is an increase of one foot over the peak stage predicted prior to the recent precipation. This peak stage, assuming favourable weather conditions, is expected to occur in Winnipeg on about April 22nd. HON.

GEOBGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education)(Gimli): I'd like to lay on the table of the House a Return to an Address voted by the House on April lOth, 1964 on a motion from the Honourable Member of Ste. Base, the Leader of the Opposition. MB . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health.

Could he indicate to the House where he purchased these -particular stickers and could he also, in the fut ure, see if he cannot buy them elsewhere or get someone who has a better separation for the back of them, because I believe that all the Members of the House who were polio-proo fed this morning are now no longer branded. My honourable friend was one of the last few that still have it on his lapel but I know that was his second one because he had to come in and pick up another one the same time that I did.

It is a small point, Mr. · Chairman, but it seems to me that if we are going to spend the money on these we should see to it that we get a good product. HON. C. H; WITNEY (Minister of Health)( Flin Flan): The suggestion of the Honourable Leader will be noted, and while the members may not be branded, those who had the lump of sugar are sure that they are polio�proof. MB . G. E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Madam Speaker, may I address a question to the Honourable- Minister of Mines and Natural Be sources? When will I be able to expect my Return concerning the Delta property? HON. STERLING B. LYON, Q.

C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Besources)( Fort Garry): Madam Speaker, that Return I think is formally being printed, but when we get into Supply if my honourable friend asks the same question orally, I think he might get a quicker answer. HON. OBIE BAIZ LEY (Minister of Labour)(Osborne): Madam Speaker, today I'd like to table a Return to an Order of the House No. 45 on the motion of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MB . BOBLIN: .. .. call the resolution on shared services. After we've disposed of that, then we'll move into Committee of Supply.

MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution of the Honourable the First Minister. The Honourable the Member for Ethelbert Plains. · MB . M. N. HBYHOBCZUK, Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains): Madam Speaker, the subject matter of this particular resolution is one which I think concerns more people in the Province of Mani toba than any other single subject that I can think of at the moment. I do believe that there's hardly a person who is interested in public affa irs that hasn •t given this matter some thought at one time or another.

There is also the fact, Madam Speaker, that there is not a consensus of opinion, as to any solution that can be offered. Not only are there diffe rences of opinions amongst individuals, but we find that there are diffe rent opinions amongst persons who belong · to the same groups, the same segments and so forth, so it's hardly unusual that we do not have a consensus of opinion and that the diffe rences are wide and varied. I have held an opinion in this matter for many years. This resolution hasn't brought my thinking to focus at this time.

I have never had the opportunity of stating my feelings in public, and even when thid opportunity did come along I wasn •t too sure that I wanted to express an opinion which I feel is considerably diffe rent from any of those that have been expressed in this House so far. I feel that the matter is so important that those of us who have certain opinions about it should express them, and in this regard, Madam Speaker, I'm somewhat disappointed that only two members, outside of the First Mini.ster, of the Conservative Party have spoken.

I have thought about this a great deal also and I have wondered why, if this was a matter of April 14, 1964 Page 1895

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, Cont'd.) .•. government policy whereby the kind of services were outlined in a program. I could understand the necessity for the First Minister to speak on behalf of the government.

That however is not true in this instance, and I do believe that some of the hon ourable members of the government benches have very firm convictions about this matter and have. not spoken for some reason or another, such reasons being only what we can guess at, but from what I have seen of the actions across the way from here, it would appear to me that pro bably they were asked by the First Minister not to speak, which of course is his prerogative and his right, but it does not do this House or the Province of Manitoba too much good when we have such a large portion of the Province, which the members of the Conservative Party re present, having no voice in a matter of such vital concern to them.

Then of course there is always a probability, an!l I think it's a little more than a proba bility, that the First Minister has more or less assured the members of his Party as to what the recommendations in the report of the committee are going to be.

The reason I say that, Madam Speaker, is because we have seen press reports"of the statements made by the First Minister to the people of the Province of Manitoba after this Resolution was before the House, and if my reading of the report is correct, the First Minister has more or less laid out what the program is going to be and the only way he could do that was to have an idea of what the re commendations of the committee are going to be.

Now immaterial of which of those two rea sons for the silence on the other side is the right one, I still feel that many of the mem_ns will some day feel sorry that they did not get up in this debate and express an opinion, which I am sure that their constituents asked them to. Well, Madam Speaker, coming to the subject matter of this Resolution, we in the West ern World and as much in Canada, if not more than the rest of the Western World, believe in the sanctity of the individual. We have fought wars to maintain the liberty .and freedom of the individual.

Our laws are framed to protect this liberty and freedom. We spend millions upon millions of dollars for the physical health and well-being of our citizens. We Christians feel . that this attitude of the Western World is due to the principles of peace, love and brotherhood, the cornerstones of Christianity . . In spite, Madam Speaker, of the ever-increasing contributions to the physical health and welfare of our people, what do we see in tlle end results?

We see 'more and more frustration and disillusionment; more and more people are requiring medical care and hospitalization, in a.great many instances due-to mental and nervous tension. We see it in the over-crowding of our mental institutions. The only conclusion thatwe can come to, Madam Speaker, in my humble opinion is that something is basically wrong with our understanding of the needs of the human being; Are we placing too much emphasis on the physical needs and not enough on the spiritual requirements of our young and adult citizens?

I am convinced, Madam Speaker, that there is a deep void in the lives that is not being filled. Our spiritual and moral needs are not receiving the attention that is so necessary to a full, healthy and satisfying life. I can fully understand and appreciate the action of those segments of our society that insist on instilling religious faith in the hearts _and souls of theii children .. This is as it should be. It is every bit as important to give our children a religious education as it is to give them an academic education and look after.their physical requirements.

In fact, Madam Speaker, I feel very strongly about this and I have, as I said in the opening re marks, for many years. When we hear the saying "Man cannot live by bread alone", that of course means that our spiritual requirements that every person needs in his life. It is my opinion that a person with deep spiritual and moral convictions lives a much better life and contributes more to the well being of his fellow man, and I want to repeat thafl feel that I understand the motives behind our separate schools an!f our parochial schools.

We have certain groups.that place the spiri tual needs, at least on equal ground if not ahead of our physical needs, and I want to compli ment and commend in particular our Jewish friends, because I believe that they make the best job of any group in this regard and I think we would be, all of us, a great deal happier if we. followed theii example. I agree in the principle of separation of church and state, which may at first glance look as a contradictio_n.

I agree that no church should be placed in a position where it can influence the decisions of the state, and I think that is what is meant by the separation of church and Page 1896 April 14, 1964

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, Cont•d. ) . . . state. But this does not mean, Madam Speaker, that there should be a separation of state and religion, and I do believe that the state has a duty and a responsibility to the moral and spiritual education of our children. I very much prefer to see religion based upon the Bible taught in our public schools. I'm not in favour of aid to private parochial schools. I believe that this results in a figmentation of our people, and I think that in some measure they contribute to the prejudice and bitterness that exists today.

It certainly does not add to the unity that is so badly and sorely needed, not only in Manitoba and Canada but in the whole of the Western World. In my humble opinion there is no time to lose in doing away with our sectarian differences. I know this is a great deal to ask.

Surely for the sake of our children •s future our churches can agree to a course of studies based upon the Bible, a course of studies that would form part and parcel of our public school curriculum; a course of studies that will fill the spiritual and moral needs of our children; which would bring about the peace, love and true brotherhood that we talk about. It would do away with at least some of the intolerance and misunderstanding. I know that this is an idealistic thinking, but with goodwill and conscientious effort it can be ac complished.

I know that this suggestion does not include all our people but it is at least a step in the right direction. Who knows but what it may lead to a fuller and better understanding amon:g all our people. I am going to support this Resolution, Madam Speaker, for one reason and one only, that it will give the committee the opportunity to question the people who are here before us as to their feeling and thinking on the subject of a course of study based upon the Bible to be a part of our public school curriculum. MR . ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, if there are no other persons who wish to take

part in this debate, and I understand there are none, I would like to move the adjournment. I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re solve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR . CHAIRMAN: Department IX, Item 4, passed. MR . LYON: .. . . asked some questions in the fishing field, the answers to which were not readily or immediately available, I have some of these answers now. He asked in our statistical review where southern lakes were referred to, there is a term "other southern lakes" and he wanted to know what they were. Well I had one of them right -- there are three of them.

There's Lake Dauphin, Lake St. Martin and Waterhen Lake. These are the only three commercially fished lakes that are included in that designation of "other lakes". There are other smaller lakes of course, but commercial licenses are not permitted on them now, only angling licenses. The Honourable Member also asked about Lake Manitoba -- one of the honourable mem bers did -- licenses on Lake Manitoba -- perhaps it was the Member for St. George .

Licen ses issued to fishermen on Lake Manitoba are, as we thought last night, issued only for the winter season, but they do allow the man to fish on any part of the lake -- any part of Lake Manitoba. I'm advised that usually the fishermen will operate reasonably close to their home base but in some cases they range fairly far and wide on the lake. The Member for St. George asked about the fishway in the fairford River Dam. I knew there had been some enquiry on this before and I can tell him that the Fisheries Branch are satisfied that this fishway is not working effectively.

It isn't working effectively because of low water levels in the channel below the dam, and the matter is being reviewed by the Fisher ies Branch officials with the staff of the Water Control and Conservation Branch to determine what remedial action can be taken in that regard. I believe the Member for Gladstone was asking about some land in the vicinity of Lang ruth, which had a recreational potential. I'm advised that this land that we believe he was re ferring to, that is the west half of

section 19-17-8 west in the RM of Lakeview, the recreational April 14, 1964 Page 1897

(Mr. Lyon, Cont'd.) ... rights to this Crown land, which is only a very narrow little portion, were at the request of the municipality, turned over to the municipality for local development by the municipality in 1963, and any development that takes place on that land as I have des cribed it here will be under the control of the local area. It was' thought to be better suited for local development than for a provincial recreational development. I believe those are the answers to the questions that were asked last night of which I have record. MR.

MOLGAT: ..... production at the south end of Lake Winnipeg over the past years in relationship to the pollution problem that exists there. MR. LYON: I'm aware of that. I haven't received any information on those figures. Whether or not they're available is an open question but I'll ask again, Mr. Chairman. MR.

MOLGAT: The other one, but I don't think the Minister made a note of it because he replied to me, judging from his own personal experience only, and that was the matter of reciprocity of angling licenses between Ontario and .Saskatchewan and I would like to know ex actly what the arrangement is, because it seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that in the .past we didn't treat Ontario tourists the same way as Manitoba tourists were treated in Ontario. The situation as I recall it last year was that you didn't even need a Manitoba Fishing license to be allowed to fish in Ontario.

Just the fact that you are a resident of Manitoba allows you to fish without any kind of a license. Now I ask if this is so? The First Minister is shaking his head, but I can assure him that that's the case. · :MR. ROBLIN: .• •. to my personal experience. I happen to have been caught-- well I wasn't caught, .but I was out fishing in Ontario and the Warden came around and I had obtained a Man itoba license at the Ontario camp which entitled.me to fish in Qntario, but I had to have a license. It cost me three bucks, I think, something like that. That's why I Shake my head. :MR.

MOLGAT: Well, it's different from my own experience, because my understanding was, from my own personal experience also with the Game wardens, provided you are a Mani toba resident you need no license. However, I bring it up. only that I think these type of recip rocal arrangements with neighboring provinces are good, and as it is there are a lot of Mani toba residents who do go into the neighboring

section of Ontario and I think that we can look for ward to possibly more people from Ontario and particularly Saskatchewan coming to Manitoba and if we can have a clear cut reciprocity I think it wduld be to our advantage. :MR. ROBLIN: . . .. very well fishing in Ontario at a fishing camp last summer, I was requested by the·proprietor to obtain a visitor's license. I remember it now and that's what I paid for and obtained, so that I did pay a license. · MR. MOLGAT: .... one of them in particular was the matter of the size of fish nets.

Now this is one on which I introduced a resolution in the House some years ago, and I don't deny Mr. Chairman, the dif:flculty that it does make for the Department; for the Inspectors, but there is a serious hardship I think being imposed on the commercial fishermen of Manitoba and particularly a lot of the small fishermen. I know that this year, for example, in a number of areas along Lake Manitoba, and I t�nk the Honourable Member for Rupertsland, .who repre sents a

section of Lake Manitoba as well adjoining my own constituency, can verify to these facts; and that is that fishermen in complete· innocence purchase nets from fish companies. They order them according to what the legal size is supposed to be on the lake. In the case of Lake Manitoba, 3-3/4 inch I think it is, or 3-1/4. The nets are shipped out to them; they are invoiced to them as regular properly -s ized nets.

The fishermen proceed then to complete them and this involves a fair amount of work and eXJ?ense by the time they put lines on them and weights and floats and so on. ·In a number of cases they may have. them checked by the In spectors. They proceed to put them i.n the water and as the season comes along the inspectors come along and they will check the nets. Now .in certain tyQeS of nets there is some shrinkage which may account for some of the difficulty.

I'm told that in the nylon nets that are now becoming more popular, it's the reverse, that rather than shrink they stretch, but on the other hand the knots have a tendency to slip, because you are dealing with a very fine and monofilament line, so if there is any slippage of the knots, you can end up in a situation where a fisherman has his net checked later on; and is found to have an illegal net. Mr. Chairman, this may sound like not an. important item but I submit that it is of vital importance to a lot of the fishermen in the Province of Manitoba, and there are many of them Page 1898 April 14, 1964

(Mr. Molgat, Cont'd. ) ... this winter who I understand suffered in a number of ways. Their nets were taken away from them in some cases. In other cases they were fined on top of that for having used nets of illegal size. Now, Mr.

Chairman, surely somewhere along the line, something has to be done to have a standard system whereby fish ermen, if they purchase a net of proper legal size, are assured that they are not going to be subsequently put in a diffic ult position through no fault of their own, and if it's a fact that the nets shrink or stretch, then let us have a tolerance that will cover it, or if it's impossible to control it then let's not per mit those type of nets, but I don •t think we can continue to have a healthy fishing industry with this sort of situation existing.

Now I know the Minister says well, it's up to the fishe rmen themselves to check these nets. They should check their nets themselves, but even if they do, Mr. Chairman, and there's a subsequent change in the nets after being in the water, they have no protection. Now I suggested to the House some years ago that we should institute some means of marking a net, tagging it, once it is legally accepted either before being shipped out from the net manuf acturers or when it gets out in the hands of the fisher man himself and he has properly set it up with lines and weights and so on.

It seems to me that at that stage particularly, once it's in the fi sherman's hands and a completed net, ready for use, that there should be some means of putting a permanent device that would cover both the net itself and the basic line, covering it, so that it could not be tampered with in the fut ure, that you couldn •t take this marking and stick it on another net, so that there would be some assurance from then on that the fishe rmen would be legal. Now this was particularly harmful this year, Mr.

Chairman, in a number of cases of people who are living on very, very low incomes, and I'm referring to some of the Metis and Indian fishe rmen around the north end of Lake Manitoba in the Crane River region for example . As I mentioned, I'm sure the member for Rupertsland has had the same experience, and these people are not wealthy people.

They are doing their best to get along, and every time some thing like this happens it discourages them from continuing to try and take care of themselves and is an encouragement to them to put themselves into the hands of my honourable friend, the Minister of Welf are, so I would like to see the Department develop some scheme whereby there will be some protection for these fish ermen. I wonder if the Minister has had complaints in this regard and whether he proposes any action? MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I certainly don't pretend to be an expert in any sense of the word on the question of gill nets, monofilament gill nets or nylon nets or whatever. I know that -- I have some of the basic inf ormation that is given to all of the trainees in the field. I know something about a Se lkirk gauge; I know something about some of the endorcement proce dures that are used. My honourable friend asked two questions. First of all, have I had any complaints about the net situation?

I can assure him that -while I haven't had necessarily com plaints, I've had discussions and reports from the Department concerning this matter, because iet's fac e it -- it's an age old problem that's been with this Department so long as the Fisher ies resource itself has been with the Department, and I'm the first to confess to him right now that I don't have the answer, nor does the Department have the complete answer to the very subject that he raises -- the very proper subject that he raises today. I think he has one or two good ideas about permanent marking of nets.

I think some of these have been considered by the Department, and I know that they are looking at other matters at the present time. There crossed my desk a few weeks ago a copy of a bill that was introduced by one of my very distinguished predecessors, the Honourable J. S. McDiarmid many years ago, having to do with gill nets in Manitoba. I understand the bill never got past the committee stage but it was introduced in an attempt apparently by the administration of that day to try to do something about the gill net situation. I forge t the year, but I think it was either just before or just after the war.

So the problem is still with us. I think we have made some strides forward in it but I'm certainly aware of the type of complaint that my honourable friend speaks of.

I think we have to depend to a large extent upon the good common sense and the discretion of the Conser vation Offic ers in the field on patrol, taking into account the situations as they find them, gauging the nets as they find them and trusting to their judgment to lay charges only where it appears that there has been a clear-cut violation of the regulation, and when that has occurred then there is the double protection, of course, of the Court aff ording protection to the fishe r men. If the Court can •t be convinced that this fisherman with knowledge was using illegal mesh, April 14, 1964 Page 1899

(Mr. Lyon, Cont•d.) .•. why then of course no conviction will follow, but this is not the total answer to the problem. I'm the first to admit it, and I can only assure him that we are con tinuing to look at it in the hope that we will find some better answers than perhaps have been available in the- past. :MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr.

Chairman, this subject's been pretty well covered but sitting here listening to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition and the Minister it just occurred to me that probably we could get at the root of this evil because it has caused many, many people,. many fishermen, real great hardships and burdens, and I don't know just what ethics are em plciyed by the people that sell these nets but shouldn't we take a look and see if we coutdn1t get these people into court by putting in a provision of contributing then? It's just an idea.

If we could amend our Act in such a way that we can get these people that sell the nets into court then we'd at least be giving some protection to the fishermen themselves. :MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I think possibly the Member for Ethelbert Plains has · touched on a point that would be helpful in initial control.

Becau�e I'm told by these fisher men who complained to me that they have a legal invoice specifically stating the size of mesh that they've ordered, that they've bought according to invoice, that. they've been shipped to the best of their knowledge according to invoice, and yet they find themselves in difficulties, so if there was a contributing clause this would make sure that all the way down the line every per son involved in the handling of nets would have an interest to see to it that they did sell exactly the type of net that is required in the area. :MR.

LYON: .••. certainly is being canvassed by the department I know at the present time.

One of the practical problems, as I understand. it however, is that you do have from time to time variations in the size of mesh that is {egal for a particular season, and sometimes you would have to make your illegal mesh as I am advised, that is your small, narrow mesh, you'd have to keep it down fairly low as to what would be totally illegal at all times -- that is, the mesh that is never permissible for commercial purposes -- because there are variations, as you ·get into your 4- 1/4, 5-1/ 4 inch mesh there are variations as to where this kind o_f mesh can be used.

It's a problem, butcertainly the suggestion is well worthwhile and I can tell my honourable friend we 're looking at . . . • • . :MR. HRYHORCZUK: .. .. on this., Mr. Chai:fman, I quite understand the argument of the Honourable Minister. There are certain waters that you can fish in today with a 3- 1/ 4 or another water will be 4- 1/ 4 and so forth. But that isn't where the fishermen get caught.

The fishermen take a 4- 1/ 4- inch mesh which they buy as 4- 1/ 4 and they're fishing in·4- 1/ 4 inch waters, but what happens after that net is submerged in the water it will probably shrink say to 4 or 3-3/ 4 and I think it's up to the manufacturer and the seller of that net to stand behind that 4- 1/ 4 guarantee. That's what we have in mind, not that they are used in different waters. ·• · MR . S, PETERS (Elmwood): Mr. Chairman, a f�w years ago the former Minister of Mines and Natural Resources told us that they were experimenting with trap net fishing.

I . wonder if the Minister could inform us of what has happened With those tests, whether they are ·going to go into trap net fishing or whether they are going to continue with gill net fishing. 1 :MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, in part of the year's research program of the department, trap nets were tried out and trap nets are being used rather extensiveiy now and have been used for the past two to three years, I think it is, particularly on Lake Winnipeg for commercial fishing operations. They have proved to be a very successful way of fishing, a very efficient way of fishing.

You get -- I know when you talk to fishermen sometimes you get some differ ent reports from them, like some of the confirmed gill net boys say that the trap net is taking away some of their fish, others who have converted from the gill over to the trap nets say it is the more efficient way. The experts -- some of them tell us that one of the main advantages of the trap net of course is that you keep your fish alive. Some of the fishermen who used them on the other hand will tell you that you find some dead just the same, so you get the pros and cons on the argument, but this type of gear has been used.

It's on the. lakes now and is being used successfully by a number of fishermen. I think the Annual Report will give you the actual numbers of trap nets being used on our lakes. :MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, with regard to the trap nets, one of the complaints I have regarding this program is that it's eliminating the small fisher man who isn't able to pay the cost of the trap net which is considerable, and it seems that the Pagel900 April 14, 1964

(Mr. Guttormson, Cont'd. ) ... fish companies are the ones supplying these trap nets and they certainly have the fisher men in their hands. Has the government considered the possi bility of any program whereby they can assist the smaller fishermen to purchase these more expensive nets so that they wouldn't have to go to the fish companies and depend on them to supply these nets so they can keep in the business? MR .

LYON: In Ottawa at the federal-provincial Fisheri.es Conference the question of loans to fishe rmen was one matter of prime concern, and the Federal Government I think realize, certainly with respect to Manitob· a where I believe there were two or was it three loans taken out under the Fishermen's Loan Plan -- I forget the proper name of it -- in the past number of years, they realize that this present loan fund is not suitable or adequate for fishing people, and I'm hopeful that they will take under advisement as a result of submissions made not only by us but by most of the other provinces, take under advisement the question of improving this Fishermen's Loan Fund Plan that they have whereby the type of loan my hon ourable friend speaks of might be available through a federal source to fishermen.

MR . GUTTORMSON: . . . . this matter should have been raised under Industry and Co mmerce, but because it deals with fish I'll raise it at this time. During these conferences, at his attendance at these conferences, did they ever give any consideration talking about establishing -- in the department establishing a canning fact ory? I firm ly believe that a government should give serious consideration to establishing a canning plant so that mullet could be processed as an edible food.

I have as has been said on previous occasions eaten canned mullet and it was a very delicious food, and it seems to me with all the poverty and hardship we have in the world, and welfare, that this food should be put to better use than it is. Under the present set-up the fish ermen have difficulty even getting a penny a pound for it and sometimes it just goes to rot all along the lake shore, and I feel very strongly that some thing should be done to try to make use of this mullet. MR . EVANS: Perhaps I might. make a comment here.

My honourable friend has brought up this question each year and I've welcomed it each year. The department has studied ques tions of further processing fish in at-least two ways. One is straight canning that my honour able friend referred to, and the other is the marketing of fish cakes, either canned or frozen. Now these are economic feasibilit ies. The mathematics aren't bad. They're not overwhelm ingly profitable but they look feasib le .

Now the next step, of course, is that we've been trying to draw to the attention of the food processing companies that somebody with their own -- who would go into it as a business . So far it hasn't been successful. We will keep it up and hope that we'll win some day. MR . HRYHORCZUK: .. .. if the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce has ever had the occasion or the opportunity to look into the plant established at Duck Bay on the shores of Lake Winnipegosis.

A free enterpriser by the name of Abe Sanofsky who has done a great deal of work up in that area for the people living there, established a freezing plant and he fillets the mullets or suckers or whatever you want to call them, and there are thousands of fish taken out every spring when they are running, when they are spawning. They're caught and they're put through this plant. He doesn't seem to have too much diff iculty in disposing of that product across the line.

Now doing it on his own, of course, wouldn't be as efficient as it would be if he had some assistance, and if there's a market for that particular product, and I believe there is -- I understand -- well, not understand, I know that the filleted sucker, when you remove the bones, because that's the objectionable part about a sucker is the bones, that you have a nice, tasty piece of fish, and the same in its preserved state.

I vrould venture to say that most of us wouldn't know the difference between canned mullet and canned salmon if it's properly done, and I think it's worthwhile looking into because that would give us an out let for the rough fish we 're so worried about. MR . EVANS: .... I have been in Duck Bay but I've never been in his plant. I'm aware that mullet is a perfectly good food but I was not aware that Mr. Sanofsky was actually selling in the States. I knew he had a market but I didn't know where.

Mullet is also used in the manufacture of fish sticks, which is a mi'dure covered with bread crumbs and is available for deep frying, prepared for deep fr ying. There's been something of a market in that product. It isn't big but I agree with what my honourable friend says, that several of the fish that are somewhat looked down on at home here are really first class food. The mullet is one. I'm April 14, 1964 Page 1901

(Mr. Evans, Cont'd. ) ... told that the maria which is really a ling cod is considered a deli cacy by certain people, and a market might some day be found for that. We stand ready to assist anyone who has a market or would like to find a market or would like us to help them try to develop a market for these fish products, and perhaps if Mr. Sanofsky would like to have assistance in that regard we'd be glad to hear from him. MR . MOLGAT: ... discussion of fishing inevitably does come over into the Depart ment of Industry and Commerce.

I believe that this publication was prepared by the Depart ment of Industry and Commerce and not by Mines and Natural Resources. I wonder·if the Minister would be good enough to give all the members of the House a copy of this publication. Certainly the members of my group would like to have one. And I would like to make a further request as well, Mr. Chairman, that when something like this is produced could it be mailed to all the members of the House .at the time it comes out, because it is of interest to us whether it's a general publication of this nature or new maps or something .of the sort.

It keeps us up to�date on what is produced. In this case, I think this one was mentioned in one of the re leases and I asked for it and they certainly sent it. I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether this is mainly intended for Manitoba consumption or for outside the Province of Mani toba insofar as a tourist. production, which I presume is the case, and what has been done with it insofar as distribution, quantity printed and so on? · MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, l really apologize for not having distributed copies of that booklet and others.

I can distribute it. to every member of the House and I'll un,dertake to see it's done both with this publication and with others. The publication is intended to answer the enquiries that come to us from our advertising campaign -- from memory, some 50,0 00 in number each year. We advertise in the publica tion, people clip coupons, send them in for further literature, we send the literature back. That will be one of our main pieces to mail back. I can't recall from memory the quantity printed. It is substantial. The other question was -- the cost of it.

I'm sorry I haven't my records with me, but I shall undertake to find it for my honourable friend .. I'd be glad to pro- vide it to him privately although I think that's poor practice. · MR . HRYHORCZ UK: Mr. Chairman, I think this is an excellent piece of literature and I've had enquiries for it from across the l�ne myself. "I t gives a lot of information not avail able anywhere else. I think it should be followed through and edited as we make additions say, to lakes being stocked and so forth. I think it's worthwhile carrying forward and following it through in the future. MR . PETERS: Mr.

Chairman, at the beginning of every session we come here to meet, I always go down to the tourist office downstairs and find out what .new publications they have. I have very many friends in the United States and I like· them to come up here and visit us and do some fishing and I myself send out about 30 or 40 of those to the United States. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, ... attractive publication and I commend the depart ment for producing it. I wonder if the Minister could indicate how much emphasis is placed on fishing in Manitoba insofar as our tourist development.

Is this a major factor; is it a major point in our advertising campaign, or 1s it considered to be a secondary one? I MR. EV ANS: We consider it to be a major part of what is really a. larger campaign, and that is to attract families to Manitoba. Most of our facilities are �esigned to cater to families, not necessarily of the highest income, who come here for a family vacation.

We try to attract -- I think my honourable friend. will see in that publication the family theme, the small boys in the boat with the father and the mother's catching fish from the shore -- .so fishing becomes an important factor in attracting the family vacationer to Manitoba.

As a prestige piece and as ·a way of advertising the province in general, we do advertise big ga!De hunting and some of the more remote, and shall we say, dra matic fishing opportunities there. are -- the very large Pike, the kind of fishing that's found up in our northern lakes. · It would be very expensive for the fishermen to get there, but as a prestige item to advertise the province where it will receive a good deal of notice we do try to feature moose and deer hunting in the north. We did have the trophy season -- I don't know whethex: we will have it agairi or not -- and the very large trophy fish.

So we go at it in two ways: one is for the general pretige that may attach to the province from the big game and big fish hunting Page 1902 April 14, 1964

(Mr. Evans, Cont'd. ) . . . that we advertise but then with fishing in particular, as an integral part of the fam ily vacation advertising we put out. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Cha irman, I'm surprised, this is my impression really that we were making fishing a fairly important part of our approach on a family basis and I'm surprised as a ·result, at the figures that the report indicates on non-residence angling ticenses because if you look at page 21, and you look at the development of angling license sales over the years, it shows that since '55 -56 whHe the total sales have increased sub stantially, it has been almost completely in the resident category and that the non-resident field has barely moved up: It was oh, I would guess about 11, 000 in '55 -56 and it now ap pears to be something in the o,rder of 13 ,0 00.

During that same period of time the resident increased from approximately 55, 000 to over 90, 000 , so it makes me wonder as to what is happening in our promotion. Are we not reaching these people, or are we not using the right approach? Possibly we should have another look at the way we are going about this because if this is the purpose to bring in non-resident anglers, then we certainly haven't achieved it according to the report of the department. MR .

LYON: The last figures that I have, and these figures are incomplete because they are not to the end of the fiscal year that we just completed, did indicate however, that there was a considerable jump in the non-resident licenses for the '63- 64 season, I believe that portion reported on. They were up from '62-63 -- that figure was 12 ,9 60 and last year, '63- 64, 15 ,5 74, so they have, during this last year there has been a spurt in that field and we hope that that spurt will continue.

But certainly I agree that generally from '55- 56 figures ranged from about 10 up to 12 and then back down to 11 and then up to 13 , back down to 12 and now we've got this spurt up to 15, so let's hope that we are on a rising scale. MR . GUTTOR MSON: Mr. Chairman, I was called to the phone while the Minister made some replies to the questions asked last night. Did he reply to my question with regard to the domestic fishing licenses. ·A re they continuing this policy or how is this . MR . LYON: dn Lake Manitoba? MR. GUTTOR MSON: Yes. MR . LYON: I have something on that.

I'll find it and give it to my honourable friend in a few minutes. Continued on next page . . . . . . . . . April 14, 1964 Page 1903 I I I

MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4 passed. Item 5, Field Operations (

a) passed, (

b) passed, (

c) passed, (

d) passed. Item 5 passed. Item 6 Surveys Branch (

a) passed, (

b) passed .•. MR. MARK G. SMERCHANSKI (Burrows): On No. 6, I wonder if the Honourable Minister could give us an indication as to the percentage that our province is now covered with aeor magnetic maps. That•s. the airborne type . MR. LYO:t\: I'll just look for that material. In the meantime .Mr. Chairman, I can tell my· honourable friend from St. George, that the domestic fishing, that is !>Y settlers permit, which by the way is an Ottawa approved permit, is still permitted by that Ottawa regulation.

There has been a gradual diminution in the number of these dome stic licenses around the lake during the summer months. The ultimate objective in time will be a discontinuance of this privilege on all of the southern lakes , that is ultimately, but at the present .time it's still in force . Last year there were 100 of these licenses issued ,on Lake Manitoba. That's the total- lOO. -- interjection -- Yes, that•s the figure I have for the total lake - 100, MR. GUTTORMSON: Then which 100 should get these licenses ? MR. LYON: •. .• ••. Mr. Chairman, · it would be strictfy on application.

If I can get any further detail on that, I'll let my friend know, but as far as I know, it's on straight application. I think the numbers requesting are probably diminishing as each year goes by as w�ll. I'm referring to the part of the lake that I'm familiar with. He is referring to the part that he •s familiar with. MR. FRO ESE : In connection with item 6, on page 70 of the report we have a paragraph here on land sale cancellations' and it states that most of these lands have been given up under. quit claim deeds .

This would infer that this had been .done on a voluntary basis but were there requests made by the government for these people to sign a quit claim deed? Then I' d also like to know what was the reason, why did these people give up or why did they cancel out? Is it because they 1re not farmers in the first place or people who can operate the· land succes sfully? Is it because they're not experienced? And alf!O these properties that were given up, in what area were they? Are they part of the Pasquia project, or where were these lands located that were given up? MR.

GRAY: The question I am going to raise I have already raised several times but unfortunately I don't get the exact reply except some sarcastic �emarks about, oh there 's not such a thing as lands in the Crown lands district. So I intend to ask this question under 9 but I think perhaps I'll satisfy it under 6. 11d like to know what effort is being made, and I do know, I did know something about it. There are many people who feel that they cannot have a livelihood of subsistence permanently in the City when they have to depend on a job.

Sometimes they get it for a month, six months, subject to lay-off, subject to reduction of time and so on.

These people wanted to go and satisfy their subsistence because they have no more in the city and go to the Crown lands, or the Crown company, or for the government, or the Minister to say, here now we have a piece of land right here, we could give it to you, we could sell it to you for a nominal price, come in with your family, try to create a livelihood for yourself,' help him out with some chattel, help him out with some poultry, help him out with som!3thing else, and here we are establishing a family who are not looking for big nioney who are not dealing with stocks, who are not manufacturers but they wanted at least the rest of their days to· live in peace, in freedom, in sunshine and in fresh air, although they cannot exist on fre.sh air.

So I'd like to know, is there anything that's being done on this basis ? I rem em her that during the depression years we have organized the city and the government,. the provincial government, the so-ca lled rural rehabiUt ation commission.

It's a place to try and settle people on the farm, · not that they•re going to make a good living down there, but they are simply anxious to transfer their misery and hardship from the City, standing in line in a little shack down on Elgin Ave nue, waiting for hours �o be interviewed by somebody and then send an inspector at home to find out whether they have another loaf of bread extra or not -- begging, actually begging -- and in addition they had to pay the penalty of sawing wood with a buck saw for the purpose of getting occupied all the time when a machine could have cut all the wood necessary.

At that tlme we had settled quite a number of families . I don't know what the result is, they may have come back; but for the time being they felt good because I happened to be a member of the commis si on. I happened to go down there and talk to them. They said one thing : to transfer my mis ery and hardship of those people that have.known me from those people that have known Page 1904 April 14, 1964

(Mr . Gray, cont'd). .. I've always made a living for my family and now I got to meet them in the unemployment relief shed. I want to go . . . . • • Quite a few, a very large number have gone down there and what the resul t is I really don't know. I've lost track of it and I don't look for trouble unless trouble comes to see me. So I feel that this is something which could be done and could be helped in a great degree without spending a lot of money, without investing a lot of money, without losing any of the investment.

The fact that they'll be there for a year or two or five that itself is a good thing and once the.Y are there probably next year they may buy a more profitable farm and move over there. Now this question has been asked by me year after year, day after day, and I've never yet rec eived a definite, call it scientific if you wish, practical reply. And even scientifically or economically it's not good. There are other reaso ns why it should be done. MR. LYON: The point mentioned by my honourable friend, the Member for Inkster, is certainly a valid one.

There is Crown land available for sale where it is arable land and where in most cases it lies within built-up are as. These sales must be approved by the Land Utilization Board of the government in order that we don't get into the same situation that we had a number of years ago of really doing people no favour by settling them on grass land or stony land that was not fit for the kind of agriculture that they wanted to engage in.

Crown !and is available, My honourable friend the Minister of Welfare could tell you about the Pasquia settlement near The Pas, which is now pretty well filled up, which is along the lines of what he has discussed of people wishing to start out afresh some of them, some of them moving from an urban type of life or village life into a more rural, agricultural type of life. That is avail able, but there is no big land settlement project as such in the wind that we•re aware of at the prese nt time but certainly odd pieces of Cro wn land are available from time to time for those who wish to purch ase.

The main policy of course right now is the leasing of grass lands or hay lands for livestock, grazing, ranching purpo ses . There is a large acreage of this land avail able in the province presen tly being leased out to Manitoba citizens. MR. GUTTORMSON: ...... leasing of land I think we should .. . MR. LYON: ..•.. off the mark because my honourable fr iend did. Really we •re not on the Lands Branch but I'll be happy to talk about that when we get to it. MR. GUTTORMSON: I should raise the matter at that time then. MR. SMERC HANSKI: Mr.

Chairman, another thing I'd like to point out is our province completely re-ma pped on the new scale of maps or on the standard scale or do we still have the dual standard of maps for the Province of Manitoba; and is it being re-m apped and if so when can we expect the completion of this work. And while I•m on my feet I'd also like to delve further as to whether there is any proposed ·program under the aerom agnetic survey for the province and is the program suspended or is it being revived, is it being extended, or just what is being done in reference to this program in the provi nce. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, aeromagnetic comes really under the Mines Branch. I•ve turned ahead to that and I have it in front of me. I can tell my honourable friend that the joint Federal-Provincial" Aerom agnetic program was started in 162, continued in 163 . The area flown during the past year extended fr om Split Lake to York Factory. Aeroma gnetic maps re sulting fr om the 162 work were all released between March and November of 1963. Now if there •s any further detail I can get I'll try to get it when we hit the lVIines Branch. MR. SMERCHANSKI: ....... matter Mr.

Chairman, is what has taken place with our underwater rights in the Hudson •s Bay and if you want to drill out in the water of the Hudson's Bay who do you have to apply for a permit now? Does the province still control this because there 1s been a great deal of attention drawn to the fact that Quebec, Ontario are more or less staldng out their rights in the Hudson •s Bay. There 's a very good poss ibility that oil may well be discovered in this area and this would be of vital importance to Manitoba and I'm wondering just what Manitoba is doing in reference to ,Protecting its ovm rights in a proper basis . MR.

LYON: Mr. Chairman, I can give my honourable friend some information on that when we come to Mines Branch, which is the next item, No. 7. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 6 passed, Item 7 (

a) passed. MR. PAULLEY: ...... Mines Branch, I think maybe to discuss this on. It's actually a follow-up to some degree to the question that has been asked by the honourable member for Burrows in connection with water rights at Hudson's Bay. I'd like to ask one or two other April 14, 1964 Page 1905

(Mr. Paulley, cont•d). .. questions in addition to this of my honourable friend. He may recall that during the summer of 1962, prior to the calling of the election of that year the members of the legislature went on a tour up north on which we handed out a whole flock of buffaloes to a lot of people up there. Also at one. or two of the receptions that were held the First Minister of the province made great headlines by announcing the granting of leases for oil rights in the area of Hudson's Bay.

I am sure that this received a lot of mileage and possibly contributed to the support that was given to the Party opposite in the subsequent election. But I want to hear from the Minister any information that he can give us as to what has transpired since that time. As we refer to the report -- I appreciate the fact that this is a year old now -- on page 76 it is noted the highlight of the exploration for oil was the extension of interest to the previously un explored area on the shore of Huds on's Bay.

And then further on, on page 83 we note there that the search for oil and natural gas was extended to the north by the granting of 12 explor ation permits to the Sogepet Limited covering some .alm ost half a million acres along the shore of Hudson Bay between Cape Tatnam and the Ontario boundary ·and then the question of an ' · additional million eight acres under the wate'rs of Huds on Bay and adjacent to the Manitoba permit areas were issued.

And then the report on page 83 goes on to indicate that the -- I think the terminology is that the Province of Manitoba acted as the post office for the _federal govern ment. Well, I would like to know if it is possible, from the Honourable Minister to inform us as to how many wells may have been found or if this isn 't 11 hush hush" information at the present time, how many drillings have taken place on the shores of the Huds on.

Bay which is in the Province of Manitoba, and how many if arty have taken place under the water in the Hudson Bay area which I understand is under somewhat of a dispute as to whose jurisdiction these areas are. MR. LYON: -1 have nothing further for my honourable friend on the •.. ; ... operation in the Hudson Bay area other than what he sees in the annual report, except to add this, that they were anticipating drilling one or more holes to test stratographic sections· in the area.

However, I think it's proper to point out that :my drilling in this area, particularly in the off shore permit areas , presents some fairly formidable problems, not only in the mechanics of it but in the logistic supportirg the operation and the various techniques that must be used. We understand that the company is attempting to interest' some major oil companies in participat ing in this drilling program. I have no further information other than that at the present time. MR.

PAULLEY: .•..•... recall correctly however, at the time that I refer to :when the announcement was first being ma de by the First Minister on our trip up north -- it may have been only coincidental that this was done while we were up north, that is the announcement of it- but the indications at that pa,rticular time as I recall, Mr. Chairman, were to the effect that imm ediate action was to take place -- or in the process . Now this is back in the summer of 1962, and outside of the snowfall of yesterday, we figured that we were getting close to the summer of 1964. Two years have passed by almost.

I can appreciate as the Minister can, I am sure, that we •re dealing with a r.eport that is a year old -- as a matter of fact over a year old now. Can I take it then from his remarks that in the document that he has before him that there •s no indication -- that nothing further has been done since the report that we are now having under consideration; indeed, Mr. Chairman, can I take it for granted that actually nothing of any material nature has taken place from the announcem ent when it was first made by the Honourable the First Minister prior to the election of 1962. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I don't think my honourable friend would want any citizen of Manitoba to take it that way at all, because he knows himself from having read the report, what was contained on page 83 of our last annual report, that in 162, from 162 and '63, an aeromagnetic survey of these vast permit areas was completed in 163, and then during the summer of '63, I think -:-- I•m reading from my own notes -- the summer of 163 , geological examinations were made of sedimentary sections exposed on Mansel, Coats and Southampton Islands.

Now, these are vast areas that we •re talking about here, and I don't think it would be fair or proper to say that nothing was done. These tremendous surveys were undertaken. Now I have nothing further on either the aeromagnetic or the sedimentary sections that were taken, other than what I mentioned about the apparent desire of the company to interest an oil company now to assist them in the actual drilling; but much better than me, I•m sure the Member from Burrows can tell my friend the Leader of the NDP that there's a fair am ount involved in- Page 1906 April 14, 1964

{Mr. Lyon, cont'd ). .. aeromagnetic and sedimentary sections on such a vast tract of land as is under consideration in this Hudson Bay area. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. SMERCH ANSKI: Mr. Chairman, in yesterday afternoon 1s report the Honourable Minister mentioned that they are trying to create some type of an incentive to attract and en courage development companies to come to Manitoba. I wonder, what is the nature of these incentives to encourage development com!Janies to come into the province with reference to mineral developm ents? MR.

LYON: ..... ." . oil fields and in the field of oil we asked the two petroleum associa tions, the sm all independent and the larger groups, I believe as was done by the Province of Saskatchewan, to give us some idea of what incentives, what types of programs, government sponsored, they were looking for in order to increase exploration and thereby hopefully production in Manitoba. We 've received from these two associations some -- but I' m told there are some excel lent ideas which are presently being reviewed by our consultants and that was the import of what I had to say yesterday.

At the present time I haven' t seen any reports frolll the consultants as to their findings with respect to these recomm endations, but really in effect what we did was go out a..-"ld seek from these associations some ideas as to what they would like to see by way of incentive program s for Manitoba in order to encourage them either to expand existing operations here or to have new people come in and look over our resources. MR.

SMERCHANSKI: ....... . with the Honourable Minister, and I think that certainly we in Manitoba have been backward and bashful in reference to the development of our mineral resources in the Pre-Ca mbrian Shield. I think that there •s a certain lack of enthusiasm ; there •s a certain backward position taken by our department and I think, espe cially on behalf of this government.

I think that we should adopt a more optimistic, realistic approach on the devel opment of Mines and Natural Resources in terms of mineral deposits, and I think that we should not -- and I would like to lay it out possibly in two or three approache s, and one is this: Let's not be afraid to get out and talk about our mineral resourc es. After all, we are the nickel capital of the world.

Now I think that no other province or country in the British Empire, or for that matter in the entire world, can boast of being the nickel capital of the world, and I think that tr.is is a very important item because much more and many more nickel mines. will and can be found in this area of MaP.itoba, and yet in all our advertising, in all our approach. to mineral developments, this does not seem to be the type of philosophy that we seem to be living, which we should be. The other one is that in Ontario and in Quebec you do get a very enthusiastic approach on mineral development.

Here in the Province of Manitoba we have a tendency to say that it is too much on the promo tional side. Now let me tell you this, that unle ss you're going to have an optimistic prospector and unl ess you're going to have. sufficient private funds to develop these possibilities, you'll never develop or find a single 'm ine in Manitoba.

This is of utmost importance to us, and I don't think that we should dampen the enthusiasm of some of our people, as long as their enthusiasm is genuine and as long as their motives are clear cut and that they are not fooling themsel ves or the publi c, because nobody can blame you for being optimistic. Nobody can blame you for 'trying to deve lop a mine; and as long as you maintain it in that spirit then I think that this is what should be encouraged. This is the type of spirit that should be encouraged.

I feel that we in this House, and certainly the residents of Manitoba, have no conception and no idea of the amount of specul ative money that's being spent in reference to the diamond drilling and developing· of new ore deposits in Manitoba.

Now, how many of these drills are going to develop ore deposits is another thing, but if the batting average is only five or ten percent this is better than the average Canadian developm ent of new ore bodies, and we in Manitoba today are encountering the largest diamond drilling mineral developed program in the entire history of our province, and yet you hardly hear a thing about it. You hear it among the people who are interested in mining but among the average public this is not even known. And this is a very vital development to this province .

This is something that's a basic industry, and I would like to leave this with the department -- and not in particular with the department because this is government policy. I do not find !lilY fault with the management of the depart ment because as mentioned by the Honourable Minister, we have a very competent group of April 14, 1964 Page 1907

(Mr. Smer chanski, cont'd), .. personnel operating this department, but I think that this gov ernment should develop and take upon itself a more realistic policy in reference to the initial prospecting, diamond drill development, and the basic trenching and development of mineral deposits in this province, and I say, Mr. Chairman, ·th at I really am somewhllt amazed with the lack of enthusiasm on the forward-looking policy of this government, because we have a pos sibility to develop several other nickel mines.

True, they won1t be another International Nickel, but they are going to be nickel mines that can contribute in terms of many, many millions of dollars of production in the field of nickel and copper production, and I merely leave thiS to the attention of the Honourable Minister because I do think that his policy should somewhat be a little bit more dynamic, as sometimes the opposite members have a tendency to use this word, and I do think that they can also afford to be a little· more enthusiastic and optimistic because this is the type of optimism that will bring in more money and more development from other provinces, from the United States, and it will attract the bigger companies who have the ability to spend this money on development to spend it in our province, MR.

FROESE : I would like to emphasize what •s been said, that we should do a bigger selling job for Manitoba, and since he •s mentioned nickel and that we are the nickel capital of the world, I think we should have a nickel dollar coin, and get this done for the 1�67 celebrat ion, It•ll take some time to. get this done but let's get it done.

This will be a larger coin than the silver dollar naturally, but I'm sure many, many people would like a souvenir of thl... ;ype and this would bring it to the attention of the people of this. province and other provinces that we are the nickel capital, and I think this is a thing that we could bring about and we could really focus attention on this matter, MR.

PAULLEY: .. ...... if the Minister would take a look at page 95 of the report of his department for the year under review, I note that under Mineral and Royalty Tax Division that during the year under review there was a total of 1, 377 assessm ents made under The Mineral Taxation Act. The total assessme nt was $11, 380; 000-odd on which a tax was levied of $91, 427, compared with an assessed value of $11, 930, 000 and a: tax of $95, 791 for the year 1961, which indicates, according to these figures, that total assessme nt under The M-ineral Taxation Act was lower in 1962-63 than it was in 19 61. · Then the same

section goes on to indicate, Mr. Chairman, that assess ments made under The Mining Royalty and Tax Act totalled 60, with taxes assessed amounting to $945,0 00 for 62-63 compared with 599, 476 for the previous year, or an increase of 57. 67 percent, or roughly speaking, $345, 000 in increased revenue to the province under The Mining Royalty and Tax Act, and yet, Mr.

Chairman, if we note on page 87, showing the total mineral production of Manitoba of just the metals produced, there was an increase in the final value of 196 1 of $73 millions- odd compared with approx imately $129 millions in 1962, or a difference of, roughly speaking, $53 millions of an in crease in production the year 1962 over 1961, and as I note; as I mentioned earlier, Mr. Chairman, there' is a reduction of the revenue under The Mineral Taxation Act of about $4, 000 and an increase of $345- odd thousand in respect of revenue under The Mining. and Taxation Act.

It just doesn•t seem to jibe to me, that the asses sment should be down, the royalties up, and that we should only receive approximately a third of a million dollars of a total increase of production in metals alone -- not taking into consideration Iion-metallics -- an increased production of over $53 million. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I am happy to have the contribution of the Honourable Member for Burrows on this total question of promotion in Manitoba because he is ce rtainly a man whose name is an illustrious one iii the mining fields of this province and indeed in other parts of Canada, and I can tell him that so long as I occupy this portfolio I'm going to keep a pretty close ear to anything that the Member for Burrows tells me , because I•ve never seen a situation where a Minist�r of Mines could have right in the same Leifslative Assembly his own mining consultant provided by the Opposition -- may I say at no cost to the people of Manitoba, So we •ll listen with a great deal of interest to anything he has to say, and if he 's wrong -- and I don •t know that he •s going to be wrong on too many occ asions ; he •s a pretty sound, sober individual -- if he •s wrong I may occas ionally from time ·to time have to tell him, but in my s·alad years in this portfolio at least, I•m afraid I won't be in the position to correct him too often -- not with the vast background of experience that he has .

What he has said about mining promotion I hope does not reflect on the permanent staff of the department, Page 1908 April 14, 1964

(Mr.

Lyon, cont1d) ... because these are men that I find to be, particularly in the Mines Branch men working under Jim Richards and u11.der Bert Gobert, the Assist ant Deputy Minister, these are men with a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for their work and for Manitob a, for the developme nts that have taken place and that they anticipate will take place in our province, and if there has been enthusiasm lacking I hope that he will ascribe that lack of enthusiasm to the ministerial level, because then when I get onto that ground I can talk with a little bit more cer tainty because I know that there is no lack of enthusiasm at the staff level at all.

Now I' m following'i n this portfolio I suppose what might be desc ribed as one of the most enthusiastic Mines Ministers in Canada, and if I were to try to keep up to his pace why I' d be going at about 20 hours a day, because he was a whirlwind of action in this field and he was the one, as I mentioned in my rem arks yesterday, who started what I feel is one of the best pro motional ideas that the Department has undertaken in so me tim e, namely that of perso n to perso n contact by the Minister of Mines of this province with leading development companies, mt only in Canada but on the North American continent and perhaps in other parts of the world, and as I me ntioned yesterday I i11te nd to keep up this type of contact that was started by the prese nt Minister of Health, because cert ainly it is the type of thing that is conducive to bring ing into our province or enhancing from within our own province from investors and people who are already here, further developmen t in our provincial reso urces .

So I don't think that we find too much dis.agreement except on this point. I hope that he can find me as enthusiastic. If he says that I' m nearly as enthusiastic after a year at this job as my prede cessor I' ll be quite happy, beca use he was a whirlwind in this field and it•s quite a job keeping up but we do, as a government, subscribe to his ideas that there must be enthusiasm on the part of the gov ernment and those working in the field. I think that enthusiasm is present.

I hope that even though we can •t produce the ore bodie s, we can •t send the people out into the field to find them, I hope that any developme nts that do take place in the years to come will certa inly be as a result, partially at least, of some of the enth usiasm generated by the departmental staff, and may I add hopefully, by the present Minister. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister is going to give us any report at all on the San Antonio situation? MR. LYON: Mr .

Ch airman, I can give a very brief general report on the San Antonio situation insofar as our stewards hip over that company is related to the matter of loan to the company pursuant to the statute that was passed at the last sessi on. There are other matters of detail that we do have some information upon, that perhaps no good purpose would be served by making general announcements about them, but I think the main factor that can be given to the committ ee, Mr.

Chairman, is that of the total amount permitted to be loaned to the com pany under the statute of last year, as of the present time $185, 000 of this total amount has been taken up by the company, and I can add that their exploration has been somewhat consid erably in excess of that am ount. You will reca ll that the amounts of the loans were for ex ploration and developmen t work in the mine . I should perhaps have said number one, most important, that mine is still operating today in Manitoba and that was one of the prime purposes of the total exercise .

Number two, $185, 000 of the total amount commi tted has been loaned to the company. Number thre e, they have had troubles. Of course they have had troubles. It•s been a tough operation for them but I think credit is due to the management and·the consultants they've had in. They've kept the mine operating and it•s like farming to a large extent -- there •s always tomorrow; and some of the recent indications are that they •re hopeful about what they have been finding. I have other information on grade and quantity and so on but I don't know that necess arily any public purpose would be se rved by giving it.

I' d be quite happy to share it with my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition , or the Leader of the New Democra tic Party some other way if they wish to have it, but generally speaking, that is a very general p:bture of the position of San Antonio today. MR. MOLGAT: ........ for the information and I cert ainly would not want the Minister to reveal any information here that would be of any possible embarrassment to that venture . It1s a business venture and I don't want to be harming them .

What I was concerned about' is the contribution that we have made to date and whethe r there •s some improvem ent in the condition and if prospects are good for continuation. April 14, 1964 Page 1909

MR. SAU L CHERNIACK Q. C. (St. John's): Mr. Chairman, . tbis reference to the San Antonio Mines brings me to the question which was bothering me a year ago, and that is the danger that this type of problem a:mld occur, and has occurred, in connection with other devel opment locations, other one-company towns, and I would like to feel assured that the Depart ment is looking at all of these one-com pany type of towns to try to forecast for itself problems wbich may yet arise of this si milar nature.

I would like to feel that the Department has a policy of some kind in attempting to forecast the problem before it actually becomes as urgent as it was last year at about tbis time. I don't know how this problem would have been handled had tbis House not been in sess ion last year. I don•t.know whether the government would have had the power to do what it did last year, and I did feel then, and I still feel, that it rose to the occ asion very quickly last year and did make a strong effort to deal with what appeared to be an emergency problem .

I'd like to know just what plans the government has· made in tbis regard, what efforts it is continuing to make to study other situations of a similar nature that may arise, and I• d like to tbink that thought has been given by the government to dealing with this in the future.

I'd like to suggest that companies should not be permitted to step into the province, diain its natural resoUrces, without a responsibility to the community wbich it creates to see to it that it is not left in a vulnerable position in the event that the company for one reason or another, be it because of lack of natural resource to continue to develop, or be it because of the factor such as happened over a year ago of fraud or some pseudo or close to criminal act took pl ace in connection with this particular mine .

I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some idea as to what efforts are being made to prevent another occurrence of a similar type. ·1 MR. FROESE: I tbink we should get a little fuller report on tbis matter. After all it involved considerable time last year and we had a very full discuss ion on it and I would like to know more of the progress that it•s making. Will this company require more funds as we go along or is the agreement that was made at that time sufficient ? Also did the company secure able management at that time?

Apparently the management of the mine had left and they at that time did not have the management that they should have. I MR. SMERCHANSKI: Mr. Chairman, I do believe that a consul tant was not appointed by the government in r�ference to tbis loan. Is thlit correct?

I would again like to lodge the strongest protest I could in tbis direction,. because all the money that you lend to any institut ion is not worth too much if it hasn •t got proper guidance, and it is true that the company knows its day-to-day operation but believe me -- and I speak of experience �- there's notbing nicer than to inject some new blood into an operation to revitalize it and either make it successful or not succes sful, and I tbink that I will again repeat that tbis government should definitely have stepped into the position of making it mandatory of that loan to provide a Qonsultant.

Now a consultant could give. guidance, direction, and quite frankly tbis is the greatest contribution . that could be made and I am amazed at the policy of tbis government in not seeing tbis .. Now this isn•t something that I have concocted from the top of my head. This is not something that is taken in the mining industry as being something of somebody's particular choosing, These are actual facts. People working with their problem, people working in a mining operation, ca nnot see the overall problem.

Their overall planning is a bit confused, a bit hazy, and there's nothing like having an outside man come in -- and I again say to the Honourable Min ister of Mines that we have got very competent men in this· province, both on the Department of Mines and on. our University staff, .who are of utmost competence to give pt>oper guidance to these people and tbis is the guidance that they need..

Some of the stories that I heard in re- • ference to the work force during ·last summer, last fall and even this winter, if you had a .proper consultant in the capacity. of giving them tbis advice tbis would not happen, and I think that we are fooling ourselves to a large extent by not interjecting ourselves into making it mandatory to have an O\).tside consultant.

Tbis i!3 the cheapest type of insurance that you can afford to buy ; Not only that, aside from the fact that we •ve made the loan, the additional insurance that you're buying is that you can create either a perpetuation of this operation for years to come or you might just as easily close the door on the whole operation, and I again. reiterate and leave tbis to the Minister of Mines that I think that you can contribute .more - thi.s government can contribute more in the way of an outside consultant than in any other way, and I urge you to reconsider this with your staff -- they know best -- and appoint a consultant who is not going to interfere with their operations but who is going to be there to guide them ; Page 1910 April 14, 1964

(Mr. Smerchanski, cont 1d) ..• give them proper decisions and give them encouragement and help whenever they need it, and I think that this is of vital importan ce . This is just a small part of the cost of insurance to make this operation successf ul. I would also like to say this.

The fact that we as a government, or you as the Government of Manitoba, we as members of this legislatu re , have interjected ourselves into the problem of San Antonio, I again say to you it is the government's responsibility, it is the government overseeing the problem that this does not result in failure, and I think that if the government pays a little closer attention in the direction of a consul tant, I think that you will begin to realize the importance of this applicat ion. This is being done by com panie s like Noranda, Timmins, any other large compa ny . .

Before they go into an operation whether it's a going operation or whether it's an initial oper ation that you •re going to examine with the pos sibility of developing a mineral deposit, you always have one, and sometimes two and three consultants , and this is the field in which this government should interject itself seeing that you are in it, complete the job and finish the job, and I urge you to give this some real serious consideration. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the Honournble Member for St. John 's asked a question regarding the future of •....... and I don •t think he got an answer from the Minister.

I'd like to refresh his memo ry because his predecessor apparently was going to do som ething about this. A large headline in October 163 said, "Province to adopt get tough policy on ailing mine . New legislation planned to prevent any more San Antonio crisis. Manitoba's mining companies will be called together next month for a heart to heart talk with provincial mines and natural resources, C. H. Witney. " Mind you, Mr. Chairman, this was some sev eral months after the legis lature had recomm ended strongly that some action be taken in this regard.

But better late than never, som ething was done, or presum ably was done. It said, "It was learned Friday that Mr. Witney is currently ma king plans for a November meeting of all mining firms operating in the province to warn the com panies about their financial dealings so there won •t be a recurrence of last spring's San Antonio Mine crisis " -- and I skip; late r on in the

article it says : "however, Mr. Witney•s department doesn't want to be faced with another San Antonio situation in the near future; therefore mining executives will be warned next month that no further provincial funds will likely be forthcoming to aid ailing underground operation. " And, "the Sa.'l Antonio situation will also be responsible for the introduction of new provincial legis lation to pre'vent ma j ority shareholders from disappearing after depleting a compa ny 's working capital.

" This is what hap pened in the San Antonio case where the principal owner vanished leaving the province to foot the bill, I wonder if the Minister could inform us at this stage the results · of this conference and what specific action has been taken by the government to ma ke sure as they sa y that these things don't recur, MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I app reciate the Leader of the Opp osition reminding me about the question from the Honourable Member for St. John's .

The meeting that my honour able friend refers to was held between my predecessor and representatives of the major min ing companies in Manitoba, and while of course I wasn •t present at that me eting, I understand that the matter was discussed rather thoroughly of the situation vis-a-vis mining towns or towns that are largely if not totally dependent upon a one business operation such as a mine and while I don't have the note of the actual mee ting in front of me, I can't seem to put my hand on it, the import of the meeting was this: That there was no need for a change in legis lation vis-a-vis local government district setups or a.'lything of that nature arising from the discussion that was held at the meeting, and that the companies were advised of what measures were open to government to take with respect to these ma tters, No recomm endations were forthcoming as to any change s that were required vis-a-vis the relationship of the mine to a compa ny townsite. · Now with respect to the ma tter of The Companies Act and the posi tion of minority share holders , this is a ma tter that 's in the hands of the Honourable Provincial Secretary, There 's nothing in the way of legis lation at this sess ion of the Act because it has to do with -- I know from some other experience it has to do with the whole field of corporate insiders and this is a ma tter that is receiving consideration by the Deputy Provincial Secretaries right across the country, As a matter of fact we were in contact with Ontario about this ma tter because they had had some experience with it as well, But I understand from him now that there •s no leg islation at this session, although the matter is still current in that department.

April 14, 1964 Pa g e 1911

MR; MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I notice a major revision of The Company's Act. I must confess that! have not read the large Act that has come before us. -- interje ction -- Oh, this is not in The Companie s Act? This is anothe.r Act altogether? Could the Minister indicate then when he might be doing something because it was indicated in this news item that we would be faced with legislation' this year. Now if it's very difficult to do I can appreciate he may want more time. Can we depend on having something next year ? MR.

LYON: •....... being looked at as I understand from my honourable friend without interjecting him into our debate -- still being looked at in the Department of the Pr?vincial Secretary and also in the Department of Utilities through the agents of The Securities Act. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I do thank the Minister for giving us the information which he did, but I understand that other than learning that there was a meeting such as referred to in the news clipping, the mee ting with mine owners, the· mine owners apparently came to the conclusion at that meeting that there was nothing that could be done by the mine owners imder the Local Government Act. Is that the explanation that we have? Well is there anything that the government came up with that the mine owners could do to prevent this repetition? MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, without getting into the detail of a meeting that I didn't attend and the notes of which I can't unfortunately put my hand on at the moment, I think what I was trying to suggest to my honourable friend was that this situation exists, that in a n-...:.ber of our ma jor mining operations in Manitoba these. are covered by agreement with the province _ _: I'm thinking now of International Nickel, of the Snow Lake site, the Lynn Lake site and so on - these are covered by agreements that were entered into at the time the operation was started, The older operations such as the operation at Bissett, such as the Town of Flin Flon, ·.are not covered by specific agreemen ts of that nature, but as I understand it subject to correction by my colleague the Minister of Health, it was decided at the meeting that there was ·no-need for change, substance of change of any sort, in any legislation affecting either the local govern me nt district setups or the older setups, where they have townsites not covered by agreement.

MR. SMERCHANSKI: .••.•. done anythi�g about the matter of .safety dogs in mine cages and what the latest development is in that matter, . . · MR.

LYON: I believe the question of s;1fety dogs in mine qages -- my honourable friend was good enough to give me some notice · of this question in order that .perhaps I wotil.dn •t answer something about dalmatians or fox terriers -- but by and large the safety dc;>gs that.are used in Manitoba are either of the two, the double or the triple tooth tie, except at International Nickel I believe where they have the -- is it the Keppy -- Keppy type of safety device which is as I understand it four cables attached to the corner of the cage itself which obviates the nec es sity of the safety ·dog, and· of course as all members of the House will know, along with the .

Honourable Member for Burrows, the safety dog is a device that comes into operation on the mine cage when the cable breaks, the teeth then move in and take hold of the cage in order to prevent it from falling and injuring miners . MR. SHOEMAKER: We have just laid on our desk this very colourful little booklet, "Fish, Manitoba. r' I wonder if it is the book that is referred to on Page '125 of the annual report under the heading Departmental Revenue, sub-heading General Branch Revenue, Sale of Booklet, "Fishes of Manitoba, " $186 .0 0 -- interjection -- Well what is .it that vie sell for $186 , 00? . ' MR.

LYON: ..•.•.. book by the late Mr. Rinks that was produced by· this biologist who was with the department; who unfortunately lost his life during the last war. and then there were additions made to it by the present Director of Fisheries, _Mr. Kooyman. ' The book has been republished and there are some sales of it still , It's an excellent }?ook. I' ve got one in my office, ·.If my honourable friend would like to look at it, antl if he· considers it worth the price of purchase, I can then tell him what the price of that purchase would be , MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder, and I think the •.••. may have made·a state ment on it. Earlier in the sessi on I had discussed the matter of potash developments in Sask atchewan.. I believe that the same vein extends in the Province of Manitoba, and certainly insofar as Saskatchewan is concerned, in the oil developments, we have had an advantage over them in that our oil wells are not nearly ·as deep as their own and the cost of developing one is not as great. We haven't been as fortunate as they have in our finds, but certainly there has Page 1912 April 14, 1964

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) ... been a better position so far as costs I believe . Now if this is so, is it pos sible that in the case of the potash developments similarly the overburden would be less in Manitoba than in Saskatchewan, and that we could end up with a better cost factor for mines. I believe there was some publicity some time ago about the possibility of potash in the area south of the Riding Mountain, vicinity of Russell, Binscarth and so on through there.

Are there any explorations going on and is there any possi bility -- can we look forward to potash developments in Manitoba as they are pres ently going ahead in Saskatchewan. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, there were no new potash developments in the province, the Tombo mines are the less�es of two potash leases, each comprising from 4, 000 acres issued on the 8th of January '62, and the 28th of September, 1962.

The second lease contains an obligation to expend the sum of thre e million on development during the fir st five years of the term of the lease, and then failure to meet this obligation of course results either in the cancellation of the lease unless an extension is given by the Minister of Mines. The company we understand is attempting to arrange some financing in connection with this matter. The Potash is a fascinating subject and a particularly interesting one to Manitobans because, as my honourable friend pro perly points out, because of this excellent development that has taken place in Saskatchewan.

One of the probl ems as I am advised by the branch in Manitoba, is that the potential of our reserves is not as great, thrt is of our known reserves, is not as great as the reserve body that they have in Saskatchewan. The question of overburden and all of these other matters of course come to the fray in the subject and there are many papers of a technical nature, some of which I have seen, which have been issued on this subject but if I can summarize here just for a moment, I think I can give a more generalized picture. The proven Saskatchewan reserves are much larger at the pres ent time than Manitoba's.

The total potential in Saskatchewan at the present time of over 150 billion tons of ore, and this of course is in much greater amount than our proven potential here. . Only the eastern edge of this potash salt basin extends into Manitoba,

whereas the whole basin underlies a large portion of southern Saskatchewan. Now I'm going to take the advice immediately that was proffered this afternoon by the Honourable Member from Burrows and say that while at this stage in our development it would not appear that our chances are as good as Saskatchewan, still we know that potash is the subject matter that is in great and growing demand each year and we know as well that one of the financing prob lems that would be required, the estimated cost of a potash development, that is, the plant that would turn out 4, 000 tons per day, is some $30 millions.

This is a large investment. This is the kind of investment we 'd like to get in Manitoba. We, as I mentioned, have these acreages or leases out at the presen t time to this one company and we •re hopeful that they can perhaps uncover greater reserves than we feel are available at the present time. We 're hopeful as well that financing -- that when these reser ves prove up, that financing will then also be available to make sure that this res ource can be developed in Manitoba. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, did I understand corre ctly the Minister to say that agree ments with this company for these two leases involves their spending $3 million within the first five years of the agreement ? MR. LYON : That is what I am advised, yes. MR· MOLGAT: And if the agreement was signed in 1962, which would mean that by 196 7 they would have had to spend $3 million. So far , what have they done insofar as exploration? Hm much has been expended to date and what prog ress are they showing in the development of their leases to warrant their holding them? MR- LYON: I'll have to get that information.

I don't have it with me at the pres ent time. MR. LE Mu EL IM.RRIS (Logan): Mr. Chairman, ..... in Saskatchewan, in Ester hazy, the mine itself, the shaft, cost $40 million.

So when they talk about $6 million in Manitoba and they haven't the resources in Manitoba that they .have in Saskatchewan, they have one strata there - I'm not quite sure now -- but there is thousands of pounds pressure per square inch and they had to lead down through 200 feet and freeze the whole works solid and then take it out by drill, take it ·out by drill, take it down, It cost them $40 million for a shaft alone, but their potentiality is so rmch greater than ours here. that potash now has taken ahead of the oil in Saskatchewan. It is the number one in Saskatchewan ahead of the oil.

Now I don •t see that happening in Manitoba because your field of potash here is smaller; it•s just an extension into Manitoba from the main field and I don •t know whether it would pay to carry on on a big scale here because of the vast expense. MR· WRIGHT: In looking through the report, Mr. Chairman, I notice that we have 8 aircraft, 2 Otter and 6 Beaver, I believe. Then earlier in the report we were talking about Canso Water Bombers. I just wondered who operates them. Do theyco me under a government air ser vice or do we hire them? April 14, 1964 Page 1913

MR. LYON: ... aircraft that are hired on a tendered basis for this specialized service. MR . CHAIRMAN: Item 9, Lands Branch passed. The Member for Rhineland. MR . FROESE: May I ask the Minister some questions? Before, on Item 6 when we had the heading there Mineral Services .and Lands and I didn't notice that we had a separate item under Lands, I wonder.if he could answer those questions at this time. MR . LYON: .••.• 70 of the report. MR . FROESE: That's right. MR . LYON: There are only -- land sale cancellations, -- 19 of these during the period reported upon by the report.

I don't have the details of those in front of me, Mr. Chairman, I can only speculate that these would be sales perhaps of an older nature where payments had not been made for some considerable time and quit claims were obtained from the persons who wished to give up the land or alternatively, people who had kept their land up to date, and who wished to get off the land and perhaps gave it back to us for a nominal consideration. MR .

FROESE: The lands that are referred to here, are they more or less from one lo cation or are they from various areas of the province and the people that voluntarily then quit, was it because of the inexperience more or less. that they decided to leave the land? MR . LYON: · As I say, I don't have the details on each of these 19 pieces. I can only again speculate that these would be in marginal areas and they would be, probably with 19 of them giving them up there would be 19 different reasons perhaps for the land being given up. MR .

PETERS: . . .. this is the department that last year I raised the question of lots that become available .different places at sumiiJer resorts where they were bid on and when you get the circular that's sent out from the department they tell you that the minimum bid is $25 or $50 or whatever it is, and people bidding on these lots find themselves way out of line when the bids are finally all received.

I know of cases where the minimum bid for a lot asked for was $50 and the people that got the lot had bid $1, 200 on the lot and I mentioned last year that I didn •t think this was a fair way because the people with the money will get the choice lots and get what they want, but an ordinary person wanting a lot will never get one at the minimum bid, and I asked the lVIinister last year to look into this. I wonder if he's looked into it.

I thought that if they'd do it the way. they do it in Ontario where there's a set price, if there's more than one person asking for a lot that the names are put into' a hat and then the one that's drawn gets the lot instead of this bid system. MR . LYON: Mr. Chairman, just one little piece of verification on the potash leases that I spoke of. One lease of 4, 000 acres, the rental of $1 per acre per year -- the second lease is the same acreage - - 4, 000 acres -- the rental is the same, $1 an acre per year. It's on this second one that they must spend $3 million within 5 years or surrender the second lease.

That's the more definitive detail on that. Now on the land -- I'll just have to take a moment; I know it's here. I know the problem that my honourable friend is after. I'll just have to find � . MR . GUTTORMSON: The new policy regarding hay leases and hay permits is causing· considerable concern in my constituency and I know many other parts of the province.

As I understand it from the people in my area and some in other parts, the new policy has jumped the rates from three to four times that of the old rates and it seems to me it's grossly unfair to charge the people this exorbitant rate that's been put into effect. I certainly approve of the long-term leases but I don't think that the big jump in the hay leases and hay permits is justi fied; and we've had reports from the Minister of Agriculture who is encouraging the family farm, talking about increasing the cattle production in the Intei-lake and this very policy is helping to destroy the family farm.

Many of the people feel they just can't afford to pay these new rates. As I understand it now, a man pays I think $4 and some cents for a lease and then so much a ton; I think it's 90� a ton. The old rates were $3 . 00 and 25� a ton. Some of these quarters that the farmer leases,. because of weather conditions and what-not, they never even get to use the land at all, and I think that the Minister should encourage the government to re consider this policy which appears that it could cause a lot of hardship to the people in the un organized, where most of this land now exists. MR .

SCHREYER: .. . . this line of questioning just a bit further. According to the Minister's remarks which he made yesterday on introduction of his estimates, ·he said that pursuant ·to the new policy they were going to classify each quarter-section or each parcel of Crown land according to its cattle sustaining capacity. I presume that refers both to grazing Page 1914 April 14, 1964 I

(Mr. Schreyer, Cont'd. ) ... and to hay land. I wonder if this program of classification is well on its way. I presume it is, because here I have for example a note to the effect that one individual who was formerly paying $16 lease fee per quarter in addition to the 909 a ton is now being charged $56 for the quarter. Now this is an increase of about 200 percent. I presume it's because it's been classified and shown to have quite a high cattle carrying or sustaining capacity.

The Minister goes on to say that there will be provision for review or appeal of the classification, and I would like to ask him what would. be the procedure for this appeal and who is going to act in that capacity as an appeal tribunal or for it or whatever? Is it going to be a ministerial appeal type of thing, or what ? And then allied to the question asked by the Member for St. George , what about the policy of this government regarding those who do some improve ment on the land which they lease ?

Now, in the case of this individual who is being charged $56 a quarter for his hay lease, let us assume that he could increase the productivity of the quarter-se ction if he were to do some bulldozing and some disking and so on. Let's say he could increase the capacity from eight tons to about 20 or 30 tons, an increase of let's say 300 percent. Would his fees go up 300 percent? Is this part of the policy ? And if this is the government 's intention I think that they are barking up the wrong

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-2-70
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 2nd hansardpdf 70.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bbbc463f6fd5d01bd08e8731960ddf11d5357a15

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