Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 17 (37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-17

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session· Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba ..... . •: · . . . ·· :··'�D�� ·' ..... : .. DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 17- 1:30 p.m., Monday, April23, 2001

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. ASPER, Linda Riel N.D.P. BARRETI, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Joy Fort Garry P.C.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

669 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April23, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a matter of House Business, Mr. Speaker, I would request that you canvass the House to see if there is an agreement that on days when the Agriculture committee is travel ling to hear public representations that there be no quorum calls in the House and that there also be no votes. At this point, the committee is scheduled to be outside of the city of Winnipeg on Monday, April 23, today, and as well on Monday, April 30. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Opposition House Leader, on the same House business? Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On the same House business, Mr. Speaker, I heard the honourable minister saying no votes. That would be votes deferred to the next day-[interjection] The votes would be deferred. Mr. Speaker: It is requested that we canvass the House to see if there is agreement that on days when the Agriculture committee is travelling to hear public presentations there be no quorum calls in the House, and that there be also no votes, but deferred votes.

At this point, the committee is scheduled to be outside of the city of Winnipeg on Monday, April 23, and Monday, April 30. Agreed? [Agreed} Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I would also ask that you canvass the House to see if there is also an agreement for no quorum calls and no votes or a deferral of votes to the following sitting for Thursday, April 26, which is the day that Rural Forum starts in Brandon. Mr. Speaker: It has also been requested to canvass the House to see if there is also agreement for no quorum calls and no votes for Thursday, April 26, which is the day that the Rural Forum starts in Brandon. Mr.

Laurendeau: That would be deferred votes, Mr. Speaker. [interjection] No, he did not say deferred. Mr. Speaker: Okay, I will read it again. We are canvassing the House to see if there is also agreement for no quorum calls and no votes, but deferred votes, for Thursday, April 26, which is the day that the Rural Forum starts in Brandon. Agreed? [Agreed] ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Leonard Loboda, Richard Kovacs, P.

Stevens, and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba re quest that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alternative routes for the ad ditional 230 kV and 500 kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. * (1 3:35) READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and prac tices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Will the Clerk please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth:

670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a 500kV and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particular childhood leukemia. to the proxi mity of power lines.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alter native routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flood Conditions Hon. Drew Caldwell (Acting Minister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report to the House flood conditions and forecast update for April 23, 2001. Levels of the Red River continue to rise slowly with increases of less than one third of a foot since yesterday.

The crest is expected in Emerson today and at the flood way inlet on Friday. Further rises will be only about half a foot from Morris to the floodway inlet. Rises from Emerson to St. Jean will be even less. Minor dike closures may still be required at Morris and St. Adolphe, where PTH 75 at Morris will remain open. The flow in the Red River Floodway was 22 800 cubic feet per second this morning of a total of 64 300 cubic feet per second flow coming from St. Adolphe. The river level in downtown Winnipeg has been steady at 17 .5 feet for the past four days, and it is not expected to rise higher.

The crest on the upper Assiniboine River is presently near Miniota and is expected at Griswold, Oak Lake Reserve, April 25 or 26 and at Brandon between April 27 and 28. Significant flooding of valley lands is under way from St. Lazare to Brandon. Predicted crests from Virden to Brandon are now similar to or slightly above the crests which were observed in 19 96. Streams in the Riding Mountain and Duck Mountain areas have been stable recently due to cool weather. However, significant rises could develop on streams flowing off the Riding, Duck and Porcupine Mountains later this week.

As predicted, warm temperatures should melt a lot of the remaining snow in the high ground. Crests on streams in the Dauphin and Swan River areas should be lower than those of 19 95. Extensive flooding of low-lying areas is expected, but villages such as Minnedosa should escape all flooding. Roseau River levels are steady or falling and no further difficulties are anticipated unless heavy rain develops. The Souris River is pre sently cresting at levels significantly lower than 19 99. Low-lying areas are flooded from the international boundary to Hartney.

Flooding from Melita to Hartney should end within a few weeks, but flooding at Coulter will last through much of May. On the Pembina River, flooding of valley lands from Rock Lake through to La Riviere continues; however, the crest has passed through Manitoba with stages well below those of 19 96 to 19 97. Levels of the Whitemud River are stable in the Westbourne area. Flooding continues in the northern portion of the watershed near Glenella and through the Big Grass Marsh. High levels are expected near the outlet of the marsh east of Gladstone for the next two weeks.

Levels of the Fisher River continue to fall and no further difficulties are expected. * (13 :40) Overland flooding continues in many areas near Lake Manitoba. The Alonsa and Ashern areas continue to have difficulty. Water is being pumped and temporary drainage is being in stalled to alleviate any flooding which may occur. Water levels should subside in the next few days. The weather forecast for southern Manitoba indicates warming for the rest of this week with very little precipitation. That is the update for today, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): I thank the honourable minister for his statement.

I know that along with him and indeed all Manitobans,

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 67 1 we heave a sigh of relief that the forecast looks promising and that the flooding would appear to be minimized in terms of the ma jor areas of concern along the Red and even the Assiniboine, but, Mr. Speaker, allow me to point out that hundreds of culverts and small bridges, roads have been cut, driveways, crossings. Mr. Speaker, I come to work along the provincial road 518 and four of my neighbours have their driveways cut off to let water through.

I am assuming, and I am hoping, that the Government will address these issues as had been raised by my colleague the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) and others about the response to the municipalities throughout Manitoba that do not make the headlines in terms of the flooding but who have been inconvenienced significantly as a result of the high water this spring.

Not to let this occasion go by but to remind us all that some prudent forethought and visionary work done by previous governments that built the Red River Floodway, the last dam that I commissioned on the Assiniboine on Whitemouth that is saving us from substantial damage at this time. I challenge and I charge this Government, and I will support this Government if they choose, as they have indicated, to address these issues. Let us not be too complacent about having slipped by yet another serious flooding situation this year. National Organ and Tissue Donor Week Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Today marks the beginning of National Organ and Tissue Donor Awareness Week. I would like to call on all honourable members to give their considered support to this critical awareness effort. It is a challenging topic. On one hand, we have to acknowledge the tragedy of the loss of life. On the other hand, we know that in that tragedy there is hope of life for others. There are 17 5 Manitobans currently awaiting transplants. They are waiting for something that will save their lives or will signi ficantly improve their quality of lif e.

This week we encourage all Manitobans to ensure their families know and support their wishes to have their organs and tissues provided for tra nsplant efforts to save lives if they should lose theirs. It is critical that families know and understand the wishes of their relatives so that difficult deci sions can be made immediately. Mr. Speaker, in October I appointed a Manitoba Organ and Tissue Donation and Transplant Committee. This committee is ac tively working to provide recommendations that will increase the organ and tissue donation rate within the province.

I am awaiting report from the committee later in May. I would also like to note that the federal government is dealing with this issue on a na tional basis. The recent creation of the National Council on Organ Tissue Donation and Trans plantation is a welcome move. This council will provide Canada-wide efforts to increase aware ness, develop standards, provide leader-ship, co ordination and funding. Between 19 95 and 19 97, Manitoba had the second-highest donor rate compared to other provinces. This is something to acknowledge and take some pride in, Mr. Speaker.

The num bers may change significantly year over year. What we want to ensure is that Manitobans give some serious thought to organ and tissue dona tion and discuss it carefully with their families. I encourage all honourable members in this House to give this issue some thought themselves and to undertake to discuss their views with their own families. Mr. Speaker, it is important to note that out of tragedy can come hope and the gift of life. Thousands of lives across Canada have been touched by the thoughtful consideration of many Canadians.

I hope that this week will encourage all of us to give that same thoughtful support to this important issue. Thank you. * (13:45) Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I would like to thank the minister for that statement today. Certainly it is very important that we recognize National Organ and Tissue Donor Awareness Week. It is a particular interest of

672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 mine, having been a nurse and worked in an area where we have had to ask parents or family members to make this consideration while a patient is passing on, has been certainly an experience that is not always that easy to do. To address this issue up front is certainly one that I would be very supportive of seeing happen. We do know that there are a number of patients awaiting organ donations in this country and in this province.

It is something that would take some educational effort to make happen, but one I believe that is possible and would certainly alleviate a lot of issues for families and for patients who have to live with the need of an organ being donated to them. Certainly, if we in the House can encourage all Manitobans to look at and discuss this with their families, at a time when we are healthy, to look at signing our driver's licences, it is a very big decision.

The first time, I know, that I went to fill out my driver's licence it was something that I thought would be easier to do, and it took some time to sit and think about it. Yet once one works through that in their head it really is quite an impacting feeling that you have to know that you have moved that step ahead. You have been willing to address the issue with yourself and your family, and you are willing to make that happen if the need should ever be. I know, Mr. Speaker, that one of the private members' resolutions coming up in this session is one that I will be putting forward on this particular issue.

It is a particular interest of mine, and I certainly would like to commend the people in Manitoba who are involved in this. So thank you very much for the opportunity to put a few words on the record. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have from Linden Christian School 24 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Mark Glor. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen).

I would also like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have His Excellency Wendelin Ettmayer, Ambassador for Austria to Canada. On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD South Eastman Regional Health Authority Funding Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): After adding half a billion dollars more to the Health budget since taking office, this Government has provided no improvements to health care services to Ma nitobans.

Today there are triple the number of patients in hospital hallways compared to this time last year. Waiting lists have grown longer. The shortages of nurses, doctors and specialists are larger than ever. They have put more money into the system, but because they have failed to manage responsibly, because they failed to provide a plan and a vision, regional health authorities are struggling and our health care system is deteriorating, Mr. Speaker, leaving Manitobans and patients the victims of a health care system that simply is not meeting their needs.

We have received a copy of a very disturbing letter from the South Eastman Regional Health Authority, which I would like to table for the House. Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Health confirm, as outlined in the letter from Mr. Paul Campbell, chair of the South Eastman RHA, that there was not sufficient money provided to the regional health authorities to meet the commitment for nurses, technicians and other health care providers that the Government negotiated in the collective agreement? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is so inaccurate in so many of his statements that I am not sure where to start. For example, today, in Winnipeg hallways, there are four people in the hallways who will be gone by the end of the day. When the member was the communications director for the Conservative Party, on today's date there were nine in the hallway, double.

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 673 With respect to the South Eastman region, yes, I did receive a letter from the chairman of the board, and there are discussions that are taking place with respect to the Southeast region. I might point out that the budget increase to that region this year, budget over budget, is almost 10 percent. I note that for the year that the member opposite was the communications direc tor for the Conservative Party, the budget increase to that very same region was 2.2 percent. * (1 3:50) Mr. Murray: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in the 2000- 200 I provincial Budget, the Doer government said and guaranteed, and I will just quote from this document: For the first time in a decade, health authorities have their budgets based on a stable funding formula. Regional health authori ties must exercise greater fiscal responsibility, avoid deficits, and reduce administration costs now that proper funding levels are in place.

Yet this letter from the South Eastman Health Authority, in the Jetter they state that due to insuf ficient funding last year they had to take $2.7 million out of this year's funding to cover the deficit carryover for the 2000-2001 year. In addition, the letter states, and I would like to read from the letter. [interjection] This is a very serious issue, Mr. Speaker. The letter states, and I quote: "What is particularly troubling is that Manitoba Health has broken its commitment to fund the Collective Agreement increases.

South Eastman board only ratified the Collective Agreement after receiving assurance from the government that sufficient funds would be pro vided to cover the increased costs of the agree ment." I would ask the minister, on behalf of all the regional health authorities, how does he expect RHAs to pay their nurses, their technicians, their health providers, when his Government is not providing them enough money to honour the existing collective agreements as was promised? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, last year at this time the Member for Charleswood (Mrs.

Driedger) was running around saying: You are not funding the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority enough. They are $10 million in deficit. She was wrong then, she is wrong now, and they are wrong again today. They are wrong again today. How does the member opposite characterize the largest increase in the history of the RHA, the largest increase in the history of that RHA, $3.4 million in a base budget-[interjection} Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, let me repeat for the member from Lac du Bonnet, when he was the member responsible and provided a 2% increase to that region, how the members op posite indicated that the $3.4-million increase, which is a 10 % increase, the largest in their history, in light of members opposite's state ments just very recently of spend, spend, spend. They cannot have it both ways. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, the letter notes that government underfunding could lead to potential cost-cutting measures, including the delay in the purchase of a CAT scan, delays in the opening of two personal care homes, the cancellation of the chemotherapy program, the discontinuation of the regional surgical program and the closure of the extended treatment unit in the Bethesda Hospital at Steinbach. The letter also raised concerns about the possibility of hospital closures in order for the RHA to avoid running a deficit. Will the minister say they have no intention of closing rural hospitals?

The Doer government's mis management of the health care system is leading in exactly that direction. What does the minister have to say to our nurses, our technicians, our health care providers, who may be laid off because RHAs say they have not had sufficient funds this year to honour the collective agreement? Mr. Chomiak: First off, members on this side of the House are not going to do what members opposite did. We are not going to fire 1000 nurses. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health likes to take advantage of political

674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 opportunities like this to always take advantage and indicate that the Tories fired 1000 nurses. During the period of health care reform in the 19 90s- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all honourable members that a point of order is a very serious matter, and I ask all honourable members for their fullest co-operation. The hon ourable Member for Charleswood, on a point of order. * (13 :55) Mrs. Driedger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On that point of order, it certainly is important that the record reflect accuracy in statements that are made in this House. Certainly, during the period of time of health care reform in the '90s, there were nurses that were moved about in the system. The reason they were moved about in the system is because the collective agreement did not allow a transf er from one job into an other. In fact, nurses had to- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, without a mobility agreement, nurses did have to be laid off in order to be rehired into a new job.

It is no different than the NDP right now firing 350 VON nurses in a period of serious nursing shortage. It is no different. If they want to go down that path, then we can too. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all honourable members, when up on a point of order, a point of order is a breach of the rules or procedures of the House or unparliamentary language. The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: On the same point of order, I suggest that the member does not have a point of-[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order.

Just to remind all honourable members, I have to deal with one point of order at a time. The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. [interjection] I have not ruled on it. I caution all members, when nsmg on a point of order, a point of order should be a breach of the rules or unparliamentary language. I just reminded all honourable members. I have not ruled on the point of order. The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the member opposite does not have a point of order.

I suggest the member opposite is trying to deflect attention from the fact that 10 00 nurses were fired during the Tory years and deflect attention from the fact that in 19 97- Mr. Speaker: Order. A point of order is for breach of the rules, not to be used for debate. The honourable Minister of Health, on the point of order pertaining to the breaking of the rules or unparliamentary language. Mr. Chomiak: I suggest that it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over facts. I only have two more words to say, Mr. Speaker: Connie Curran. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), it is not a point of order; it is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I am very confused by the Leader of the Opposition. A week ago in this Chamber his own Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner) said: "Residents of my region are not asking this Government to spend more money." April 18 , 2001, Budget Speech. The Member for Steinbach criticized this Govern ment for spending money on health care. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot fire nurses.

They cannot then destroy the health care system and then blame this Government for trying to pick up the pieces of their own mis management.

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 675 Regional Health Authorities Recruitment/Retention Funding Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Today it has been confirmed to us what we have been hearing from around the province, that the Doer government is not providing sufficient money to honour the collective agreement for nurses and other health care professionals. Despite the Premier and the Minister of Health talking about the need to recruit and retain nurses, the letter from Mr.

Paul Campbell indicates that, and I quote: No funds have been provided to recruit and retain nurses and other scarce health care professionals. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health how he expects the RHAs to carry about the important recruitment and retention functions that he said they will do when he is not providing them the resources he promised to provide to them. * (1 4:00) Bon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): The chairman of the South Eastman board wrote and outlined a series of options and a series of difficulties that they perceived in terms of funding, given their demands for budgetary requirements in their budget if we were to maximize their total budgetary requirements. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that this region received a 1 0% increase budget over budget, the greatest increase in the history of that region in this year's Budget. Members opposite, including the Member for Charleswood, criticized this Government for overspending in health care. They cannot have it both ways. Mrs.

Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer the question. The question is for the Minister of Health. I want to ask him how he expects the RHA to carry out their important recruitment and retention functions that he said he will do when he is not even funding the com mitment to fund within the collective agreement. That is the question. It has nothing to do with extra spending. Why is he not meeting the re quirements of the collective agreement? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, we have been meeting with the RHAs for a period of time.

Last year the same member stood up and criticized this Government for not funding Winnipeg enough. Last year she stood up and wanted Charleswood to be declared an underserviced area for health care. Now she is standing up after we have given the southeast the largest increase in its history. I have indicated to the chair that we would be meeting with them to deal with these issues, and they will have sufficient funds to deal with the collective agree ment. After receiving the largest increase in their history, just last week this member said all the Doer government was doing was spend, spend, spend.

She cannot have it both ways. It is incon ceivable to me that there is any credibility attached to that statement since, when they were in government in '97-98, they funded that same region at 2.2 percent. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health how he can justify to the regional health authorities the spending of $7.3 million of health care money, taxpayers' money, to purchase the Pan Am Clinic building and equipment when he is not even providing sufficient funds to meet the collective agreement or recruit needed health care professionals throughout this province. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, the establishment of the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic is designed to provide increased services, something that was not done during the Tory years in office. If the member wants to find out about those things, perhaps she could ask her leader. If, for example, one was to purchase, say, a gas station, and you were pa ying up to $7 million to rent that gas station over two years, would it not make more sense to spend $7 million and reinvest the money back into that gas sta tion rather than paying the money in rent as we have to the private clinics the past two years?

Regional Health Authorities Funding Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, in his letter to the minister, Mr. Campbell references the cancellation of the chemotherapy program for his region. He ref er ences the cancellation of the regional surgical programs and he references the delay of the new personal care home opening, all of this while the

676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 Minister of Health could find $7.3 million to buy the Pan Am Clinic. I ask the Minister of Health: What programs and services will be cut by other regional health authorities as they now desperately try to find the money to honour the collective agreements and meet the health care needs of their residents? Bon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): As I indicated, the letter was a letter from the chair of the board outlining various options that the region was considering given that they have only a 10 % increase in their budget, contrary to what the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner) said: "Residents of my region are not asking this Government to spend more money." We put the Budget out ahead of time. We are having discussions with the regions about the ramification. Last year they said: You are cutting Winnipeg. They were wrong. This year they say we are cutting rural Manitoba. They are wrong again. Mr.

Tweed: I want to ask the minister, given that he has not provided sufficient funding to meet the contractual agreements and given that the Premier (Mr. Doer) has said that he will not fund RHA deficits: Can the Minister of Health tell the RHAs and the people of Manitoba how he expects them to continue the delivery of a high-level health care? Mr. Chomiak: Most of the rural regions have received the greatest single increases in their budget since the inception of regionalization.

I suggest that members opposite, whose record in this regard is somewhat shabby, if one realis tically compares the increases when the member opposite was the legislative assistant, or the Member for Charleswood (Ms. Driedger), the increases are in excess of any other year. The programs going in are in excess of any other year and, like they were wrong last year with respect to Winnipeg, they are wrong again with respect to rural Manitoba. Mr.

Tweed: Are the Health Minister and the Doer government telling RHAs to reduce staff, reduce services, cancel procedures, close hospitals in rural Manitoba while they spend $7.3 million to nationalize the Pan Am Clinic? Mr. Chomiak: What we have done is, first, we told the regions they cannot follow the Tory plan of closing hospitals in rural Manitoba. We said that is not on despite the fact it was under way. We also said despite the 1000-- Point of Order Mr.

Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): I sympathize so much with the Minister of Health, having been in that chair, and know the great budget demands on his particular department, but I cannot sit here silent anymore. I think accuracy is very important in this debate. The Minister of Health has talked about some plan to close rural hospitals. I can tell him as a Minister of Health that we did not close hospitals. We made them relevant. We changed function. I may also say- Mr. Speaker: Order.

May I remind all honourable members once again, a point of order should be raised when there is a breach of the rules or for unparliamentary language. The honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on a point of order. Mr. Praznik: Yes. Mr. Speaker, I ask this for your guidance, but the minister continues also to get up in the House today to make the point. He stated many times that this particular RHA who has written to him had a 10 % budget increase. In their own letter they say they only had a 2% increase. I want to ask the minister: Is he telling the House that the chair is a liar? This is unbelievable.

It is not a dispute over the facts. Is this letter wrong? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. * (1 4:1 0) Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I suggest that the member is wrong and should know better than to try to dispute the facts that they have not done very effectively in the House by virtue of trying to raise a point of order to make their point. It is very clear a $3.4 million increase on a $34 million base budget is 10 percent.

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 677 Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Chomiak: I just want to add the comments. The member who represents that region, and I quote again, said last week in this House: "Residents of my region are not asking this Government to spend more money." April 18 Budget speech, Mr. Speaker, and I think he probably knew what the increase was to his region, the largest increase from any government to that particular region.

Regions are never happy with the money they get. They certainly were not happy under the previous government's regime, but we have tried to balance all of the interests of programs, needs of the regions. We have given considerable additional resources to rural areas. Last year they were wrong on the urban. This year I think they are wrong again on the rural. South Eastmau Regioual Health Authority Funding Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, as an MLA for the southeast region of our province with an increasing population and growing needs, the Doer government's failure to provide sufficient funding to honour collective agree ments and meet our health care needs is causing great distress. [interjection] The minister is taking me out of context on last week's speech. I am talking about managing money, not in creasing money. I would ask the minister which of the options available to the RHA he would choose: (

I) closing Ste. Anne Hospital; (2) closing Vita and St. Pierre hospitals; (3) cancelling the chemotherapy program; (4) delaying the opening of personal care homes; or (5) discontinuing the regional surgical program? Which of those op tions, Mr. Minister? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, (1) the letter indicates that we are not going to allow "by writing," and it says in here and that is why members are disingenuous. We are not going to allow closures or deficits.

(2) We have the largest physician recruitment training program in the history of the province.

(3) For the first time in a decade training doctors to go to rural Manitoba.

(4) We have doubled the number of nurses that are trained in this province. We have not closed nursing hospitals, as was done under the members. We are ex panding nurse training.

(5) That region got the largest increase in its history as a regional health authority; and

(6) The member said in this House last week: "Residents of my region are not asking this Government to spend more money." Mr. Jim Penner: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the answer, almost. I would ask the minister, given that these are all hard choices, what he would recommend: closing Ste. Anne Hospital, closing Vita and St. Pierre hospitals, cancelling the chemotherapy program, delaying the opening of a personal care home or two, or discontinuing the regional sur gical program. What are we going to do, Mr. Minister? These are the options that we have been given. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, further in the Budget speech the Member for Steinbach said, and I quote: We have not seen health care spending increases like this ever before. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as pos sible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. I would ask if the honourable minister could just answer the question. Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, in terms of the context of the question, the member said he was misquoted, and I was just continuing his quote. I was trying to clarify the member's own state ment.

678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, the honourable minister was on his feet for seven seconds and said very few words, so I could not tell if he was using those words to form his answer or if he was going into provoking debate. So the honourable Official Opposition House Leader does not have a point of order. *** Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the question of the member who did not want us to spend any more, is he asking us as a government to spend-[interjection] Is the member asking us as a government to-[interjection] Is he asking us to spend the 2.2 that he did under his government or the 9.8 that we are spending this year under our Government? You ought to clarify that. Mr. Jim Penner: I did not get an answer there, Mr. Speaker, so I am going to try and get an answer on my supplementary question from the Minister of Culture (Mr. Lemieux), who is a fellow MLA for the southeastern region and a member of the Treasury Board.

Could the minister tell the people of the southeast why he approved the $7.3 million in funding for the building and equipment at the Pan Am Clinic while short-changing his own constituents in southeastern Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): The question was clearly directed at the Minister of Culture, and I ask if he is representing his constituents or hiding behind the Minister of Health? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr.

Speaker, I know that members opposite know full well that the questions have to be put to the minister who is responsible for the area of policy decisions. Indeed, Beauchesne's Citation 409(6): "The Minister to whom the question is directed is responsible to the House for his or her present Ministry ... " Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, the honourable member does not have a point of order. When questions are raised, it is up to the Government which minister responds to the question. *** Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, members on this side were quite surprised when we heard the comments of the Member for Steinbach when he said: "Residents of my region are not asking this Government to spend more money. " What we did is we gave to that region the largest increase it has had since it has been an RHA. We are working with that region to deal with some of its needs and requirements, and we have said that for some time, because they told us that they were grossly underfunded under the previous government. We said we would try to recognize that, we would work on that, and we would build on that for that reason.

That is why they only got 2.2 percent when members op posite were there. That is why we gave them additional funding. That is why we are working with them to improve the situation. * (14 :20) Regional Health Authorities Funding Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): The Minister of Health would want us to believe that there is only a small problem in the South Eastman area of Manitoba, but the reality is that this same problem prevails throughout the province. We have heard from regional health authority after regional health authority regarding this minister's handling of finances regarding the health region.

As a matter of fact, in the Brandon Sun just a few days ago: Big cash crunch hits RHA. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health what he has to say to the Brandon Westman Region, who depend on the Brandon General Hospital for many of their services, when the regional health authority from Brandon

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 679 has indicated that they will not have enough money to meet labour costs this year, given the Budget that was announced by this minister? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I will indicate, as I indicated to the Brandon region, this year they got a 9.2% increase over last year. The previous year was 9.2. That is an 18 .4% increase over two years, which runs contrary to the member's colleague the critic for Health, who said all they chose to do was spend, spend, spend. They cannot have it both ways.

The public knows they underfunded and starved those areas. Now they are trying to tum it around. The public knows that. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health, given the fact that it is not our message here, this is the message that is being given by the RHAs throughout the pro vince, whether it is Marquette, Brandon, Eastman and other regional health authorities saying that they will not have enough money to meet labour costs within their RHAs.

I want to ask the minister what his answers are to these RHAs and how he expects them to meet the contractual obligations that they have, given that they do not have enough money in the Budget that he just announced? Mr. Chomiak: Two things, Mr. Speaker. One of the reasons that these issues are out is we prom ised to get the RHAs their budgets ahead of time. For the past three or four years, the budgets have come to the RHAs eight, nine and ten months behind, which is why all of these things cause more difficulties and why there are deficit problems and difficulties. Mr.

Speaker, we had to balance this budget off under the resources provided by the Province to try to improve health care. Marquette got a 6% increase. South Eastman got a 9.8% in crease. Brandon got a 9.2% increase. I think under anyone's calculation, that was a fair repre sentation of the resources of this province. It is ironic that members opposite stand up in this House day after day after day and say we are overspending in health, and today they are saying we are not spending enough in health. We endeavoured to balance the Budget.

They were wrong last year in Winnipeg when they said Winnipeg would be in difficulty. They are wrong this year. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health, whether he will admit to Manitobans that it was a wrongheaded approach to spend $7.3 million on the Pan Am Clinic's building and equipment and leave RHAs in Manitoba with a shortfall in meeting their obli gations for labour costs within the RHAs? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, members opposite have opposed the relaunch of our nurses' pro gram. Members opposite, I presume, oppose our doctor's program.

Members opposite oppose the fact that we have doubled the number of nurses training in Manitoba. Members opposite have opposed every progressive measure on the preventative side, the health clinics, et cetera, that we have imposed. I think most Manitobans would recognize that a 9.2% increase to Brandon this year is reasonable under Budget circumstances.

I think that mem bers, Manitobans, recognize that we are trying to do something, that we are trying to prevent the two-tier Tory health care system that we were left with, and that is why we are doing the Pan Am experience, so money will go to the public sector for reinvestment, not into private pockets. Regional Health Authorities Funding Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I watch the current Minister of Health and I understand very much-maybe only he and I in this House understand what is going on here right now.

The Minister of Health is under attack from a health care system that consumes great amounts of money, but I want to ask the minister if he would just be honest with Manitobans and with those health authorities. I ask him: Given that the letter from Mr. Campbell, from South Eastman Regional Health Authority, very clearly indicates that, yes, they received the $3.4 million; $2.7 million was consumed because of a deficit of structural funding requirements that is there, why in that letter he clearly indicates that there is not enough

680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 money to meet the $850,000 required to meet collective agreements? Would the minister, I plead with him, just be honest that this is a fact and we can have a real debate about the issues instead of rhetoric. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the member opposite very cleverly tries to play around with the numbers and forgo the fact that the letter says our increase in funding is $3.4 million. Our increase in funding is $3.4 million.

If there is a structural deficit, they told us it was because of underfunding from the previous members' term of office, that we are trying to make up by giving them the largest increase they have ever had as an RHA. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister if he would just acknowledge the reality for that regional health authority, that given the increase that has been provided they will not have enough money to meet the contractual obli gations under their collective agreements and their options will be only to reduce services, close facilities or Jay off staff.

Will he just be honest that that in fact is what is happening instead of hiding it in rhetoric? Mr. Chomiak: That particular region is getting a 10 % increase of $3.4 million in addition to the money it got last year. Last year that particular region got an increase of 6.1 percent, which is a greater increase than when members opposite were in office. That, in the assessment of the Department of Health-and we are working with the region-will be sufficient to cover all of the needs and requirements. We are still negotiating with them at that region.

At this time last year that member and the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) accused us of having a $1 0-million deficit and ran around with a Jetter, a letter like this in Winnipeg. They were wrong then and they are wrong today. Mr. Praznik: I would like to table a copy of the letter from the minister to Mr. Paul Campbell, board chair of the southeast region. I believe the minister referred to this as his funding letter. I would just like to ask the minister a very simple question, since he will not acknowledge the facts.

I would ask him: Is the reason regional health authorities are so upset this year because the minister's letter has clearly said this is it, there is no more money and that they should take the necessary, and I quote: organizational and operational changes to work within their funding level? In other words, layoffs and closures. Is that why they are so upset? Mr. Chomiak: For the first part, Mr. Speaker, for the first time the regions actually have the funding ahead of time. I know that is novel for budgeting purposes for members opposite, that we have provided the information in advance.

At this time last year, the Member for Lac du Bonnet ran around with a Jetter from the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority saying there is a deficit, there is a deficit. How could they fund it? I said wait till the end of the year and we will see what happens, and they were wrong. Members opposite want it both ways. We want to be prudent. We have given a 10 % increase to this particular health authority, the largest increase in its history. It is only indicative of the inability of the members opposite to actually understand this process.

The fact is the information went out ahead of time, not eight months into the year as it was under their years. We expect them to live within their budget. Most Manitobans expect all of us to live within our budgets. Brandon Regional Health Centre Capital Program Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): I have a question for the Minister of Health. I would like to ask the Minister of Health a question about an update on a long deferred capital project in southwest Manitoba. I would like to know what the status of the project is at the Brandon Regional Health Centre. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): The redevelopment of the Brandon regional hospital as a regional critical care project and a related project is going ahead under this Government. It was promised and promised for over a decade. It is going ahead. We have put money in the Budget so that the citizens of that area and that region will have access to an expanded and improved facility and MRI-related technical equipment, something that has never happened

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 68 1 in that region. We are very proud to have an opportunity of working with that region to provide that service. * (1 4:30) Regional Health Authorities Funding Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): The citizens of Westman probably want to ask the minister whether he included any money for operating costs in his Budget for his announcement today. The minister talks about presenting numbers. He clearly wants to have it two ways. When he does a comparison to minimize our spending in the Budget, he compares it to last year's actual.

When he talks about an increase where he wants to show an increase in spending, he compares it to last year's Budget. My question to the minister is: If you look at the numbers and you compare this year's increase over last year's actual cost, do you not agree with Mr. Campbell that your actual fund ing is not 10 percent but, in fact, less than 2 percent? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, perhaps I will explain it to the member opposite.

If he were to look at the funding that was not provided to the House in the past when members were in government, but the funding went from the time when the members were opposite from $29 million to $30 million, $29 million to $30 million actual, and this year we have increased the funding from budget to bud get, it is $3.4 million, the largest increase in the history of that particular region. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health should have a meeting with the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) and do their numbers the same way, because it clearly shows that the funding has increased less than 2 percent in real terms. I ask the minister: Why has he underspent? Why has he short-changed the people of southeastern Manitoba and not even provided them with enough funds to meet their contractual obligations? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the member should speak to his colleague the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner) who said: "Residents in my region are not asking this Government to spend more money." That region received the largest increase in the history of that particular region.

Members opposite who cut hospital budgets, closed 14 00 acute care beds in this province, fired a thousand nurses, ought to recognize that we are rebuilding a health care system that was left in very bad shape by members opposite. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, well, the minister is right. There is nobody in this province that wants to see them spend more than the $850-million increase you have already seen. My question to the minister is: How much of the $1 16 million transferred to the RHAs went to the WRHA? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, the WRHA received an increase in its budget, from budget to budget, of 6. 7 percent, which is less than most of the rural health authorities received. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS ACCESS Program Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Mr. Speaker, today I would like to draw the House's attention to the ACCESS Program, which recently gained national recognition. The Access Program has existed in our province for 25 years and in that time has had a significant impact on the lives of many young Aboriginal people.

For many Aboriginal people in Manitoba, it continues to be a struggle to obtain a post-secondary education. The ACCESS Program, which is operated at post-secondary institutions around the province, provides support to Aboriginal students who wish to attend university. Some of the students who are supported by this unique program may not have completed high school, but the program offers them a chance to get the education they need to build a better future. After its many years of service to the community, the ACCESS Program is gaining recognition of the Conference Board of Canada.

682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 ACCESS is being recognized for its work in providing educational opportunities for young Aboriginal people. ACCESS is one of only two organizations receiving the Conference Board of Canada's national award for fostering Aboriginal learning and achievement. Our Government was very proud to have proposed increasing support for ACCESS in Budget 2001 for the second consecutive year after more than a decade of program cuts and frozen funding.

The education of all Manitoba's young people remains a top priority of this Govern ment, as does our commitment to strengthen opportunities for Aboriginal people throughout our province. Thank you, Mr .Speaker. * (1 4:40) Organ and Tissue Donations Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): On January 29, I had the opportunity to meet an individual who was undertaking a remarkable journey to raise awareness for a very important cause.

George Marcello, a co-founder of the Step by Step Organ Transplant Association, came to the Steinbach constituency as part of his Canada 500 Day Walk in an effort to save lives by increasing the rate of organ and tissue donations in Canada. Mr. Speaker, each year in Canada approximately 400 organ donations are made by Canadians who have passed away but who made known their wishes to give life to others. Through these Canadians, the lives of hundreds of others are given new hope. That new hope also brings encouragement and benefit to friends, family and loved ones. Mr.

Marcello has a very special connection to this cause, having himself been the recipient of a donated liver. His vitality and desire to take on this challenge is a testament to the life that can be given through organ and tissue donation, and yet Canada has one of the lowest rates of organ donations among developed countries. Mr. Speaker, I would like to encourage all Manitobans to consider making the decision to fill out their consent cards on the back of their driver's licence.

It is also important that individuals discuss this decision with their family members, as they may be asked to confirm this decision in a time of grief. Organ donation is one of the greatest legacies we can leave. I would like to commend Mr. George Marcello for taking the legacy he has received and working to ensure others have the same opportunity to benefit. Volunteer Week Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): This week of April 22 to 28 has been proclaimed as Volunteer Week in Manitoba.

Manitobans take great pride in their commitment to volunteerism and public service, and Manitoba is well known for its spirit of volunteerism and community. In Manitoba, volunteers of all ages make invaluable year-round contributions to this province. I had the privilege of attending Winnipeg Community Clubs Past Presidents Awards Dinner last week where Mr. Jerry Jones [phonetic} of Assiniboia West and Mr. Mike Audenbright [phonetic} of Heritage Park community centres were honoured for their out standing contributions as volunteer community club presidents.

Many, many other community club presidents were also honoured at this dinner. In my own constituency many people, in a variety of ways, volunteer. Recently three other people were honoured during the annual general meeting of the Salvation Army where Irene George was honoured for her contributions as president of the auxiliary, Major Lou Ashwell for his dedicated service as a volunteer to the Golden West Centennial Lodge, and Tiffany Holland [phonetic] for her hard work as a volunteer from Silver Heights Collegiate.

Community clubs, school teams, Pan Am Games, world curling, baseball competitions and many others could not have been possible without the countless volunteer hours that were donated by Manitobans. We should all take a moment this week to thank those in our neighbourhood and communities who give of their energy and time to make our province a better place to live and for everyone to have a better Manitoba. Thank you very much.

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 683 Tara Graham and Duana Meseyton Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): I am very pleased to have the opportunity to stand in the House today to recognize two outstanding young women from my home constituency of Portage Ia Prairie. Ms. Tara Graham, an Arthur Meighen High School graduate, who currently is attending Michigan Tech University on a tennis scholarship, has just recently broken two all-time U.S. college records for total matches won by singles and double play.

Graham's record of 88 doubles wins crushes the old record of 69 wins, and her 66 singles wins beats out the previous record of 63. In addition to her exceptional athletic success, Tara has maintained an honours grade point average in her pre-med studies. Similarly, Duana Meseyton, recent graduate of Portage Collegiate Institute, has demonstrated her outstanding athletic ability by pitching four consecutive shutout games in U.S. college play for the Delta State University women's softball team. Her performance has earned Meseyton a spot as starting pitcher, a rare accomplishment for a freshman player.

Coupled with her excep tional athletic performance, Duana has been able to maintain an impressive grade point average at her university, making Portage Ia Prairie doubly proud of her accomplishments. Mr. Speaker, I would like to send my sincere congratulations to these two young women for their success, both academically and athletically. I would like to also thank them for being such exemplary ambassadors for the province of Manitoba. Thank you. Recycling Mr. Cris Aglugub (The Maples): Mr.

Speaker, in the spirit of Earth Day, which occurred yesterday, April 22nd, it is with great pleasure that I rise to bring attention to our Government's support of a key environmental initiative, the City of Winnipeg's recycling program. As part of our commitment to protecting the environment, our Government will provide $68 5,000 to assist the expansion of Winnipeg's recycling program to apartments and condomin iums. By targeting funding enhancements to waste minimization we are helping the city to respond to one of its most pressing service con cerns.

In the end all will benefit from a cleaner, healthier Winnipeg. This is for years to come. Manitoba is one of the highest per capita waste generators in Canada. Winnipeg's plan is aimed at reducing this volume through more re cycling and a comprehensive public education program. We are extremely happy to support this program, which will allow all Winnipeg citizens to have access to this critically important service. This is just another example of how a great partnership and joint commitment from both the city and our Government can effectively address mutual concerns.

We are proud to support and will continue to support worthwhile initiatives like this one in order to have a cleaner, more sustainable province. This new funding, in addition to many other initiatives announced in Budget 2001, helps us to live up to our responsibility to manage our natural resources while being caring stewards of the environment. Our Government believes that a green Manitoba is part of our Manitoba Ad vantage. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Seventh Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: On adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposi tion (Mr. Murray) in amendment thereto, stand ing in the name of the honourable Member for St. Vital, who has 32 minutes remaining. Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to continue with my comments. On Friday afternoon when I was speaking I was talking about the incredible success that we have had with college enrollment. I just wanted to quote the vice-president, Ken Webb, from his press release.

He said: I think these numbers represent another clear indication that market responsive applied education is the reality of today.

684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 Through our marketing efforts and with the support of the Government's College Expansion Initiative, our message has been received. Red River College has become a premier educational institution in Manitoba, because we dedicate ourselves to supporting the learner and providing programs that prepare graduates for the realities of our present and future marketplace. I would just like to inform this House that this extraordinary increase in post-secondary enrolment is occurring at the same time as Manitoba has the lowest unemployment rate in the country.

This is unprecedented. We will continue to work on our college expansion initiatives and provide hope for young people. Another situation that we inherited when we became Government and we got into office, another neglected area. was the capital deficit that we inherited. One of our challenges was how to put more money into infrastructure. There were years and years of neglect in regard to funding our public education facilities.

When I first got elected I toured the University of Manitoba with the Minister of Education and we saw first-hand the deplorable conditions, parti cularly in the engineering department, where there was water leaking through the roof. In Winnipeg School Division No. I alone, the capital deficit that they have could eat up our whole budget for one year. Our Government will continue to invest in infrastructure in our universities and colleges and rebuild our infrastructure in our public school system.

We are making a substantial commitment since being elected, in infrastructure investment: $60 million to the University of Manitoba; $14 million to the University of Winnipeg; $5 million to the University of Brandon; $1 million to the St. Boniface College; and $3 1. 5 million to the Red River expansion. Once again, Mr. Speaker, we are taking this province in a different direction than the rest of the country by investing in our post-secondary institutions at historic levels, and we are proud of it.

I would also just like to comment on the $40 million that we will be investing in the Red River Floodway to increase its capacity. Actually it will be doubling the floodway's capacity. This is very good news for the residents of Kingston Crescent in St. Vital, who fought the flood in 19 97. Although Manitoba and Ottawa are currently working to improve the floodway inlet, further large-scale upgrading is needed to prepare for floods larger than the 19 50 and 1997 flood. I know that that is welcome news for the constituents of mine in St. Vital. I would like to have an opportunity to speak today about health care.

I would like to talk about the Tory record on health care and then talk a little bit about what we have done in health care since we became elected. The Tory record, they cancelled the nursing program at Red River College, the Misericordia Hospitals, and the St. Boniface Hospital. They decreased the number of seats for doctors at the University of Manitoba. They deleted 1000 nursing positions. They limited LPNs in hospi tals and tried to eliminate them altogether. They said they were going to save $200 million in SmartHealth. SmartHealth was a disaster. It ended up costing us $40 million.

They closed 14 00 acute care beds, which is comparable to five hospitals the size of St. Boniface, and they paid Connie Curran $4 million for that advice on how to restructure our health care system. * (1 4:50) Our NDP record, moving ahead on health care. Funding for health care has increased to $2.6 billion, with new initiatives to deal with hallway medicine. Over the past 18 months, the number of patients in hallways has been decreased by 80 percent; $22 million has been promised to replace and upgrade aging diagnostic equipment, with a further $18 million next year.

This funding will provide new MRis, CT scanners, ultrasound machines, and other vital medical equipment, and ongoing support for expanded nurse training and recruitment programs. We will build on enrolments that have already increased 60 percent. We will be implementing new incentives to keep doctors in Manitoba after they graduate. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 685 Manitoba will work with other provinces, the public and health care professionals to contain spiralling drug costs, one of the greatest strains on the health care system today. We will also be purchasing 80 new vehicles for emergency medical services, added throughout the province over the next 18 months, and con tinue development of a co-ordinated transport system. We will also be working on new initiatives for better care and co-ordination of emergency rooms. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr.

Sale) for the initiatives that he has imple mented in his department that are very positively received by some of my constituents in St. Vital. During the 19 99 election, our Government promised to invest in Manitoba families and children. We have acted on that promise. In addition to making the largest investments in public education in a decade, we have also paid particular attention to families with young children. Again and again research has shown us that early childhood experiences in safe, healthy and nurturing environments result in better outcomes throughout life.

This year's Budget again reflects sound investments in early childhood that will help to prepare children for school and for life. This in tum means our children will be well prepared to contribute to a better future for all Manitobans. In the 2001 -2002 Budget, we announced in creased funding for Healthy Child Manitoba by $5.6 million for a total of approximately $18 million. Just a month ago we announced parent-child centre funding for 22 community-based pro grams that reach all parts of Manitoba. Soon we will be announcing the Healthy Baby pro-gram.

This includes the prenatal benefit that the minister has announced: increased funding for child care by 7. 7 percent. This is the second year in a row our Government has firmly committed to stabilizing the child care system to provide high quality, affordable care for Manitoba children. The combined total investment from last year and this year is approximately $13 million. This includes support for wages, additional spaces and greater support for children with special needs. Ending the national child benefit clawback for families with children under six is keeping with our commitment to phase in this program.

This year's Budget will fully restore the benefit for families with children under six, and it is a $5 million investment in families with young children. · In addition, our Government has again increased the property tax credit at the same time as providing stable funding for education to stop the skyrocketing of property taxes that we saw throughout the '90s. We continue to increase tax reductions for low- and middle-income families through the family tax reduction and through measures to provide tax relief at the middle income bracket.

We are proud to say that we have been able to demonstrate our priority on families and children all within the framework of a balanced budget. These are real initiatives that will make a difference for people in St. Vital. Our future prosperity depends on the skills and education we provide to our citizens. Education and training are vital to the well-being of Manitobans and their families and are the foundation of our economic plan for Manitoba. Health care remains the number one priority of Manitobans and our Government. Moving ahead on health care is more than about money.

We will continue to introduce innovative measures to preserve and improve our universal, public, non-profit system. We will continue to work hard on behalf of Manitobans to build a strong economy and healthy communities, and we pledge to fulfill the promises that we made during the election campaign in September 19 99. Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is always a privilege and an opportunity to take

part in the general debate of the Budget as it is on the Throne Speech. It is those few, rare occasions that we have in the Chamber to speak in a very broad and a general way about the effectiveness of the Government, or in this case the effectiveness of a particular government's financial management that they forecast in the document that we refer to as the Budget. I am fortunate that I have such a great company of solid MLAs to support the attack on this current Budget that I am going to defer right now to my colleague the Member for Portage Ia Prairie to carry out that attack.

686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and thank you very much to my colleague from Lakeside constituency for the opportunity to address the amendment that we are debating at present by the honourable Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray). I have to speak from the heart as a member for Portage Ia Prairie in regard to this particular Budget.

Before I get into the Budget specifically I do want to once again take this opportunity to welcome back all members to the House for the spring session of the Legislature and also congratulate the pages for their diligence in taking on the challenges of this Chamber and especially a note to Danielle Doan at Arthur Meighen High School from Portage Ia Prairie who is taking on the responsibility of page in this session of the Manitoba Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to begin by addressing the budget allocated to the Department of Agriculture.

It is with great delight that I see that additional monies has been allocated to the Food Technology development centre in Portage Ia Prairie. However, I am dismayed when evaluating the entire budget for research and development, because the addi tional monies that have been dedicated to the Food Technology Centre has been at the loss of Other Operating in the research and develop ment area in Portage Ia Prairie. The Manitoba Crop Diversification Centre, as well as the Prairie Agricultural Machinery Institute, will both see fewer dollars this year under this Budget.

I look to the faces of those persons who are in support of the Government and ask them, when in this crisis that we are currently trying to address in agriculture, why would they be in support of a Budget that takes money away from research and development, in fact, the future of agriculture in our province. I cannot understand why anyone on the Government side of the House could support this action, because research and development provides for our future. It does not matter whether it is in agriculture or health care or transportation, re search and development provides for our future.

It provides a vision for that future in those particular areas. * (1 5:00) Agriculture in my community is a very vital component to the economy, and without research and development, agriculture will not flourish.

I implore the members of the Government side of the House to re-evaluate their allocation of dollars and look to restoring the funding in the research and development areas so that the future of agriculture, not only in Portage Ia Prairie but the entire province of Manitoba, be prioritized so that it can, in fact, provide for a very prosperous future which I know can take place if in fact research and development is supported adequately.

I must also look to the Budget in the highways department, now known as the Transportation Department, where the allocation of dollars in the lines that provide for the bridges within our municipalities, this Budget, even though the Government has provided for over $800 million of additional expenditures, has seen fit not even to recognize the inflationary factors in the bridge construction for municipal roads in our province.

They remain with $400,000 allo cated to that particular category, and we all are aware, by the minister's statements brought to the House here, of the severe damages incurred to bridges, culverts in rural munici-palities. Now I understand that certain other areas of government can perhaps allocate funding, but these are structures that need to be renewed and upgraded continuously and not even to recognize the inflationary restrictions that are brought to bear on this particular expenditure is very, very disheartening and shows a significant lack of vision.

As well in the Transportation budget, there is a line designated as Grant in Aid. It is a line that is provided for the cities, towns and villages of this province, assistance to upgrade and continue to maintain their infrastructure within their communities. This particular line, again, does not even reflect inflationary consideration and remains the same as it has been. Now this particular support is a very good program insofar as that it recognizes support for the munici palities of the cities, towns and villages and their allocation of dollars for road work and matches that particular allocation.

So therefore these

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 687 municipal officials, duly elected officials, have the responsibility for prioritizing the particular projects and bringing to the Department of Transportation well-thought-out projects looking for support. This particular program each and every year is oversubscribed. In addition to the inflationary component, this line remains the same, and it is with great dismay to see that this particular vision of our province by this Government is so dearly lacking.

In regard to education in our community of Portage la Prairie, this Budget provides only for a 0.64 increase over last year's funding. Now we are all aware of inflation in this province, in and around 3 percent. Now how can anyone in their rightful mindset understand how someone can continue with the programming and support for our young people, our future of this province, by not even recognizing the inflationary component within a year-over-year budgeting. [interjection} The honourable Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) is saying that there is an overall Budget increase.

However, within the Department of Education, they have seen fit to restrict Portage Ia Prairie to a year-over-year increase in funding of 0.64 percent. An Honourable Member: It could not be because it is Tory land. What do you think? Could it be? Mr. Faurschou: I have no idea as to the reasons why. However, Government members seem to not understand the fundamentals of program proviso insofar as not even recognizing inflation. The same holds true in that field of health care.

This past weekend, the Portage Ia Prairie general hospital had to close its ICU, Intensive Care Unit, which provides backup to the emer gency services offered from that facility. This facility provides medical services to more than 50 000 people in the central region of Manitoba. With this particular closure, because of staff shortages and underfunding, had to close. That is a deplorable state of affairs in this current day, where universality and availability of medical services, as the Member for St. Vital (Ms.

Allan) just extolled as being supported by this particular Government, when the Portage District General Hospital cannot even provide emergency services, and this particular unit within the hospital remains closed at this hour. I have no explanation as to why this Government is 11v� looking at this as a serious situation and addressing it.

Overall, I have to ask the questions of teachers, health care services personnel, those persons employed in transportation, those persons involved in research and development within the support of the agricultural industry in this province, as to whether or not their particular employs have been enhanced by this Government's Budget, an allocation of over $800 million more monies? I challenge the members on the Government side of the House to come to Portage Ia Prairie, to go to the schools, go to the hospital and care home facilities. I challenge them to go to the farms.

I challenge them to drive down the streets of Portage Ia Prairie and the rural municipality roads and see whether or not this particular Budget enhances those particular areas. An Honourable Member: It does not. Mr. Faurschou: Indeed, it does not.

I would like to hear from any members opposite as to whether or not they would accept that challenge to come to Portage Ia Prairie and talk to the teachers in the classroom, to the nurses on the wards, to the grader operators, to the contractors, and ask them the questions as to how the additional $800 million that is so abundantly extoled by all members in this Budget Debate as being fair and providing for a future in this province. I have to ask the questions and yet I hear no responses, and I hear no acceptance of my challenge to come to Portage Ia Prairie.

When one provides for a budget, they provide for the vision for the future of our province. This particular Budget, I am afraid, does not speak to the future of this province. This dismays me greatly. As an elected official, I came to this House hoping to provide for dis cussion and planning for a bright future of this province, and to this point I am extremely disappointed that persons can sit and not look to that future and plan for it. In the case of Portage Ia Prairie, I want to express the disappointment on behalf of

688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 200 1 numerous service groups that have tried to provide support for individuals looking for recreation and sporting activities. Portage Ia Prairie dedicated itself to the Pan American Games and provided for the athletes vil lage, which was home to over 11 00 athletes in 19 99.

It was hoped that some of the monies that were left over from that particular event here in our province, a very successful event I might say they have not been alloca ted outside the city of Winnipeg, not recognizing any of the contri butions of volunteers and of local governments in Brandon or Minnedosa, in Portage Ia Prairie, Roseisle, in other venues within this province that contributed to the success of the Pan American Games. It was not Winnipeg only that hosted those games. Yet looking at the allocation of those specific dolla rs of the monies left over from those games, it would appear so.

Outside of Winnipeg, residents of Portage Ia Prairie are very, very disappointed. * (15:10 ) In addition to those particular dolla rs alloca ted in the Minister responsible for Sport's (Mr. Lemieux) portfolio, we see in this Budget a reduction, yes, a reduction in dolla rs allocated for sport and recreation in this province. An ounce of prevention is worth a pouifcf of cure. When one is looking for a healthy lifestyle, recreation and sport play an immense role. Looking at this blueprint for the future, it does not speak to a bright future.

Within the allocation of sport, there now is entering into discussions of reclassification. I have asked to speak to the Minister of Sport and to date have not been able to get an appointment with the Minister responsible for Sport in this province.

I hope that he will indicate to his staff that he would be acceptant of a meeting on this particular topic, and I look forward to having that opportunity, because the reallocation within the minister's responsibili ty for funds on sport and recreation have been recla ssified, causing significant duress to many, many sporting activities within this province and do not speak to a very bright future for persons looking to participate in sport and recreation. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, again, this particular Budget is supposed to lay out the blueprint, the planning document for the future of our province, and again, in this particular area, it does not. It falls grossly below the expectations of persons that supported this Government, and it will speak volumes to their particular ability for re-election, because many persons look to the schools, the health care facilities, the recreation and sporting opportunities and the roads infra structure that one makes use of in order to take in those particular services, are all in an abysmal state of affairs.

This particular Budget does not speak to that. Mr. Deputy Speaker, when one looks to the future, one has to do some planning, and northern Manitoba should be an integral part of that planning. Many communities within the north of Manitoba look for economic opportuni ties. I do see in the Budget that more money is alloca ted for winter roads within this province, but everyone realizes that winter roads are only to sustain what is there; it is not to build for the future-[interjection] The Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale) says: He is looking to spend more money. That is not the case.

I have never spoken to spend more money than the $850 millio n-plus that has already been allocated. I am saying that those dolla rs should be spent wisely. I would like to ask the Government to consider looking to the future in research and development of cargo airships for the northern services, which the Province is providing, as a very cost-effective alternative to the winter road network in this province.

If there was investigation of the cargo airships that are now in development stages right now to provide for our northern communities, not only in Manitoba but to the territories that are north of our province, as a very viable way of transporting the goods and services at a very, very cost-effective manner.

In fact, they are looking at freight rates just a little bit more than ocean travel, less than rail rate on a year-round basis, yet this Government has failed to even investigate this technology and again fails to look at alternatives for the future that would provide for more economic development on a year-round basis for less money than we are expending at the present time on services on a winter road, very restricted time frame. I ask the Government to consider at least investigating this new technology and ability to service our

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 689 northern communities and the territories that are north of us. Northern development should be a key to prosperity of the future of our province, and I cannot see in this Budget where this particular mandate is being addressed. The northern parts of our province are very much wanting for a new future and new ideas as to how to make that future a bright and prosperous one. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I will leave with the last topic which is very near and dear to my heart, as a school trustee and very much interested in the long-term future of our province through the young people which we are pro viding education for. We have to encourage young people to look to Manitoba for their careers. Without an address for encouragement to take their skills and experiences that they have garnered in educa tional institutions within our province, we will only be educating those individuals for other jurisdictions' benefits.

In the particular address of this situation, it was proposed that through the income tax and tax credit system which we have in this province, we provided for tax credits that would offset the cost of education to students within this province if they were to take their skills garnered in our educational institutions in the province and apply those skills at employees within our province. And that particular point would in fact encourage those individuals to take those skills and provide for a very bright future for our province. I have heard nothing from that side of the House, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that talks to encouraging our young people to take their skills and put them to good use here in our province. No, in fact all that we are looking to do is provide for the education and yet those individuals are free to take those skills and apply them in other jurisdictions, which they will because this particular province does not encourage them to stay. * (15: 20) When one is a single-income earner in this province, we are one of the highest taxed juris dictions.

The Government goes to great lengths to show families of four persons in their statistics of their Budget documents but does not look to the individual taxpayer and where he or she fits within the comparison of other opportu nities within our nation. It is very poorly. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have a family in this particular situation. We have young children that are approaching university age; in fact, one is in university at the present time. It is very disap pointing to see that they are not looking to garner their lifetime careers here in Portage Ia Prairie or even the province for that matter.

Very, very disappointing. I spoke of two young people in my member's address this afternoon. Both those young people are not looking to returning to Manitoba to apply their skills, and this young lady who is graduating this year from pre-med studies in Michigan is not looking to Manitoba to apply those skills. I have to ask the question why. I look to members opposite and challenge them. I will provide this young lady's name and address so that they can contact her and ask very specific questions as to why she is not considering coming back to Manitoba.

They may garner some information that perhaps they can apply, because obviously they have not been speaking to the young people in this particular Budget document. If they took up that challenge, as I have challenged them earlier, I think that they would be enlightened and that this particular Budget document would be significantly changed.

I also would like to now, seeing the minister for higher education opportunities here in our province is in the Chamber, ask of her the allocation of dol lars to persons looking for higher education as to whether or not it is equally balanced between the city of Winnipeg and the rest of the province. Point of Order Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I think the member is probably being very reasonable in his remarks, but I think he knows that the presence or absence of a mem ber from the Chamber is not to be remarked on. I would ask you to bring him to account. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes.

We have certain rules in the Chamber about references to absence of members of the House.

690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 Mr. Faurschou: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I thank the Minister of Family Services for pointing that out, and I am regretful for making that observation here in the House today. *** Mr. Faurschou: I would like to ask the question as to whether or not the budget for higher education within this province of Manitoba is in fact balanced between the city of Winnipeg and the rural area of the province and as to whether or not it affords equal opportunity to garner a higher education in this province.

I would like to in fact ask the minister at some time to bring a statement to the House to show the fairness and equality of expenditure within her department as to whether it recognizes those individuals in rural Manitoba and within the city of Winnipeg on an equal basis, because our young people, regardless of where they reside, should in fact be provided with equal access to higher education in the province on an equal basis.

I refer to the relocation costs that are attributed to those persons who have to, on many occasions, travel to the city of Winnipeg, city of Brandon, and take up second residences at a very significant cost to continue their higher education.

I ask that the minister look to the programs that were undertaken by the previous government in respect to the Campus Manitoba concept, which employs the three universities within the province here and their distance educational programming and provides it at numerous locations throughout the province-I believe there are now 15 locations within the province that this technology has been installed and that the programming is being deliver ed-and ask her to look to that programming as a very, very beneficial undertaking and to support it insofar as expanding it and allowing those individuals around the province to take on the challenges of university education close to their home residences, where they do not have to incur the high cost of residency, and also ask her in regard to the deployment of funds, in regard to Red River, Keewatin Col lege, Assiniboine Colle ge, to look to those particular institutions as well and support their programming which is off ered off campus at locales throughout the province as a significant return on invested dolla r and look to that particular programming as once again enhancing the opportunities of the young people in rural Manitoba to garner that higher education that provides them with the skills that they may then place into practice in their own areas where they reside.

These programs in fact have shown significant increase in attendance. With support that is desperately needed from her department, I think that those particular dolla rs are very, very well spent. I believe that they will in fact be recognized if one was to evaluate the per formances and the benefits that have been extracted from these particular resources.

I look to the minister as well in regard to the program for registered nursing that they put into place for Red River Col lege, that that particular opportunity be provided for at areas that are now serviced by Red River Community Col lege at their satellite campuses, because the shortage that I alluded to earlier about the closure of the ICU unit at the Portage District General Hospital emanated from the shortage of skilled registered nurses, which hopefully this program will address, and that if this program were to be available in rural areas, regional sites, they would be able to garner individuals who are already in the medical field of employ and allow them the opportunity to upgrade their skills, so they can take on the new challenges which are so desperately needed by Manitobans here in this province.

I am not in this House to offer criticism in regard to what one is undertaking without the off er as well to improve, to change, to enhance. I am glad for the opportunity, because if ever I stand in this House and criticize I hope also to provide for dialogue that will satisfy that criticism. Once again, I thank you very much for the opportunity to rise in this House and debate the Budget and the amendment, which the honourable Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray) has presented to this House. Thank you ever so much. Mr. Speaker in the Chair Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I am very pleased today to put a few comments on the record regarding the Budget and the amendment to the Budget.

April 23 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 691 Mr. Speaker, I did want to at the beginning comment about some comments made by a member of this House at a meeting this past weekend. I wanted to quote the member, because the member said: Look at us today. We are strong. We have proven we can compete with anyone. He pointed to a large growth in the Manitoba manufacturing and aerospace indus tries, the province's low unemployment rate, rising wages for full-time workers and the overall growth of the Manitoba economy. Now who said this? Who made these comments on Saturday night? Was it the Premier (Mr. Doer)?

Was it the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Selinger)? No. It was the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray). I find it very confusing to sit here in the House every day listening to the Member for Kirkfield Park tell us how bad the Manitoba economy is, all the doom and gloom that comes from the Opposition Leader's mouth during Question Period, and then he goes to a luncheon on the weekend and he tells a totally different story.

There he gives a very positive view of the Manitoba economy. * (15: 30) One other comment that he said, and this bears repeating, he said that the Doer govern ment's reluctance to fund the Kenaston Boule vard railway underpass project was a barrier to free trade in the province. Hello? I cannot believe that. Just to show you how these people are grasping at straws and how little they have accomplished in their debate on the Budget, when they have to go and use the Kenaston underpass as a justification for free trade in the province, clearly they are running out of issues.

He said: It is a corridor to the U.S. market, this underpass, Murray said, adding one or two train delays might not make a big difference, but ultimately it slows things down. So I am won dering what this is all about. I have come to the conclusion that the Opposition actually liked this Budget. The Opposition has found in the first couple of days that they were getting nowhere on the Budget. In fact they gave up on the Budget debate.

Three or four days ago they reverted to asking questions about power lines, an issue by the way that has been going on for some time and will continue to go on, but in these seven days of the Budget debate, are they asking any real questions of the Budget? Are they getting anywhere? The answer is, no, absolutely not. Then the next day they went of f and chased the Minis ter of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) around for a couple of days on, once again, issues that will be here next week but no real questions on the Budget. So clearly they are, I believe, happy with this Budget.

They are finding very little that they can actually complain about, and when you dissect the Budget, you see that is in fact correct. Normally what would a Conservative ask for in a budget? Well, the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) could probably assure me that they would want to see a balanced budget. That is normally what they want. Well, this Budget is balanced. In fact, it is so balanced that it is a surplus budget. A good Conservative would want to see payment of a debt. Well, what did we see here in this Budget? We saw $96 million on the payment of debt. Check off another one for good fiscal management.

A Conservative government would want to see a recognition of the pension liability, something that they did not do for the last 12 years, and previous Conservative governments of Sterling Lyon did nothing. It took this particular Government to recognize the pension liabilities and to come to grips with the need for us to pay down those liabilities over a number of years. Now, the next area of the Budget had to do with spending. We know that these people do not like to spend. There is one cardinal reason that Conservatives have for being here, and that is they do not like to spend money.

They like to hoard the money, hold it back, pay down the debt, pay as you go. That is Conservative philosophy. So I am really shocked and amazed when we have Conservative after Conservative standing up in the House and wanting to spend more money. We have the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) constantly advocating for a $37-million underpass. At the same time, he is asking questions about reduced taxes. He is asking to pay down the debt, but yet he wants this underpass. We have the Minis ter of Agri culture not being happy with the monies that have been put aside for the agricultural crisis,

692 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2001 and he wants to spend more on agriculture. On the other hand, he wants taxes reduced. So he wants spending increased and taxes reduced. I mean, that just cannot happen. The Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) is just trying to get me back to our old friend Abe Kovnats who sat with us many years ago now, in the '80s. He would sit in the back here on the Opposition, and he would always tell us that in opposition you can have it both ways. To a certain extent, he is correct. They can get away with it.

They go out to their constituents, and they demand roads to be built here and roads to be built there and unlimited monies to be put into health care and the farm crisis. I am sure, if we went around behind them with an adding machine and added up all the promises each one of them make individually, it would be absolutely shocking how much money they would want to spend. So they ought to be careful about where they promise. The Member for La Verendrye (Mr. Lemieux) has said we have a calculator, and we will be following them around too.

The Member for Lakeside knows this because we did this to the Liberal Leader in past years when she had gone from one seat in 19 86 to 20 in 19 88 and appeared to be poised for leadership, poised for the big chair. We pointed out jointly, the Conservative government at the time and we as a third party, we took great pains to point that out to the public, that the Liberals were not balancing budgets when they were promising to spend unbelievable amounts of money and reduce taxes. They were trying to be everything to everybody. Perhaps, on the one hand, the Member for Lakeside and Mr.

Kovnats may be right that in opposition you can get away with a little bit of fudging; but I can tell you that it does not always work. I suggest to the member that he look back to times when both parties in this Legislature have voted together on a budget. In 19 73, the Conservative government of the day supported the Schreyer budget just before the election. When the Conservatives were in government the last 12 years we supported them in one of the minority government budgets and we supported them in 19 99, and we still throttled them in the election.

So I am just telling the member that you can come across, you can vote your conscience on this one, guys and women, you can vote with us on the Budget. The election is not for a couple more years and we will not hold it against them, because we did it and it did not hurt our electability at the end of the day. So vote your conscience this time. Come across and do the right thing, because in many ways this Budget could almost be an election Budget. It does everything. It is even an improvement on last year's Budget, which was pretty good. The question is can we repeat it next year. That is going to be the problem.

But this particular Budget has a lot going for it and is really worthy of support, and is not worthy of the scurrilous attacks that some members opposite have been making on it, very selective attacks, because never do they take a balanced approach. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would just like to remind the honourable member that I have taken the word "scurrilous" under advisement, and I would ask the honourable member not to use that word until I have made a ruling. Mr. Maloway: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am going to use the word "exciting" to describe this Budget and I want to tell you that we have a very exciting story to tell. I think our members are going to be doing that over the rest of the Budget Debate, and certainly in public offerings, public speeches that we make over the next little while. So I am trying to determine why the Opposition are so negative, why they are so negative, when the economy is in such great shape. Why are they so glum? The Member for Emerson (Mr. Jack Penner), as I indicated is not happy with the $40 million for the farmers. The Member for Fort Whyte (Mr.

Loewen), he wants his $37- million, $40-million Kenaston underpass. The Leader thinks it is important for free trade. The question is what would they cut in terms of spending? Our Leader asked that. Where would you cut to build this underpass? Where would you cut to give more aid to farmers? We have yet to get the answers from them. They have no ideas as to where. They will talk about efficiency in government and stuff like this, but when we were in opposition I will tell you that

April 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 693 when we did come up with our alternative budgets, which these people do not do, our Leader made sure that we always squared the circle. * (15: 40) I remember he used to say you want to spend so much over here, If you are going to spend $10 milli on over here on this bridge or that highway, then make sure we take another $10 milli on out somewhere else. He was covering all of the angles, and this was even when we were in a minority situation with 12 seats and not a lot of bright hopes for the future at that point, I can tell you. [interjection] That is right.

He was still thinking in those terms. So I cannot believe that the Conservatives would not be employing the same sort of approach, that they would want their members to not be running of f in all directions and that they would want them to co-operate and come foward with an alternative budget, so that the public, so the press, so that we could see what they would do in government. Now they say they want tax cuts. The question is which ones? Which taxes would you like to cut? I remember in 19 86 and 19 88 the previous Conservative Leader was demanding an end to the payroll tax.

That was at that time around $200 million, and he got a number of people in Manitoba to vote for him on that basis. The Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) remem bers that. He told people that they were going to eliminate the payroll tax. Well, you know, 12 years have gone by, and the payroll tax was not eliminated. As a matter of fact, it was carefully forgotten about. In 19 88, he promised it again. He did not do anything about it. In 19 90, he did not promise it anymore because he knew that he could not do anything about it. In 19 95, 1999, he did not promise to do anything with the payroll tax.

Now, after all these elections, guess what is coming back on the table? All of a sudden, they want to know why do we not eliminate the payroll tax, when they forgot to promise that in 19 99, they forgot to promise it in '95. They did not promise it in '90. They promised it in '88 and '86, and they abruptly hid from the promise after they got elected. Well, the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) was here in 19 86. He knows that, while they lost the· election that time, they did promise to eliminate the payr oll tax. In 19 88, when they won, they promised to eliminate the payroll tax.

They quit promising it in 19 90, '95, '99, because they knew they had no intention. They could not do without the $200 million in revenue. Now the Member for Russell asked what they did. Well, I will tell you what you did. You got the province from knee deep to waist deep into lotteries so you could drive up the lottery revenue to the $200 milli on so you could get the province hooked on lottery revenue, which no government is going to disentangle us from. So that was the approach of the previous govern ment. Now the corporation tax, I mean that is the killer. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Murray) sits in pain when he is asked that question. It is the most uncomfortable question he has to deal with because for the last 30 or 40 years no government has made changes in the corporation tax. This time around the current NDP government has in fact reduced the corpo ration tax. Now I am sure that, if you did a canvass of our caucus, you would find that perhaps this would not be a universally sup ported move, but nevertheless we are pre-pared to support this one as necessary because of other provinces' moves in this area.

The member should also know that, if you are going to cut any corporation taxes, this is the one to cut because what it is, is on corporate profits. If the economy is in bad shape or dropping, then there will be reduced corporation profits and there will be reduced taxes anyway. So reducing this one is in some ways a symbolic cut, but it certainly gets the Conservatives pretty riled up, I can tell you that. They do not like this one at all. So you know, for all these reasons, this Budget is becoming increasingly difficult for the members here to be voting against it.

As a matter of fact, the reduction in the general rate of corporate tax went from 17 percent to 15

694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 200 1 percent in four equal, annual steps. The first cut in this rate since the Second World War, and most of us were not even born in those days. So all through the years of the last Liberal government, and who can remember the last Liberal government? All through the years of Liberal government and then through the Con servative years of the '60s, then the Schreyer years, then their brief Sterling Lyon interlude, then the Pawley years, and then the Fi lmon years, nobody saw fit to reduce the corporate income tax.

It took the second budget of an NDP government in Manitoba to reduce this tax. I think that bears repeating over and over again. I am sure that we will be repeating it over and over again and I would expect the Opposition they should be supporting it-should be out saying nice things about this Government, should be saying how this Government has saved businesses a certain amount of corporate income tax. You know, I have further good news for the members on the corporate income tax. The small business tax rate has dropped to 5 percent, and not only that, they have raised the threshold.

There is just more good things here. They raised the threshold from, I believe it was, $200,000 to $300,000. Now that takes in a whole Jot of business here, I can tell you, in Manitoba. The NDP government did that. So come on over guys, come over girls, and Jet us support this Budget. I mean, there are just so many good things here. Now when they talked to us about tax reductions, you notice they never say how much they would reduce them by. They do not calculate the reduction. They do not see how much of a loss it would be. We never hear about how much they would cut.

They just say they want to get rid of the payroll tax. They want to get rid of corporation tax. They want to get rid of all taxes. Well, Jet me tell you exactly, what are we going to do? Are we going to simply give up on the roads? The way you people want to operate, you would not have any taxes at all. You would have no schools. You would have no hospitals. You would have no roads. I mean, you would not even need a Legislature. You would not need an opposition, that is for sure. The Member for Kirkfield-no, not Kirkfield but the-[interjection] Yes, he talks about that underpass a lot.

I should be able to remember the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), but I have got it down. Once again, how we are supposed to reduce taxes, build this overpass, you know, this kind of economics used to be called voodoo economics, but we are going to have to call this Loewenomics now. [interjection] The Min ister of Family Services (Mr. Sale) calls it "studoo." I think that one actually may win the little contest that we are going to have to have later here. *( 15: 50) So, in any event, I think that these people are just wishing that this Budget debate would end.

As a matter of fact, they only have another day, they only have a day to listen to the corporate tax cuts. So we have paid down the debt. We are giving a budget surplus. We are setting up the pensions as liabilities. We are increasing spending. We are cutting taxes. How much more could one government do in one year? If we did all that, we would not have anything to do for the next year. So, Mr.

Speaker, my conclusion, and not the conclusion to the speech, is that their sour dispositions reflect the recognition, the col lective recognition over there that they have another eight long years in opposition, and that is something they do not like. They are slowly realizing that governments in Manitoba do not normally get four-year terms. Only Sterling Lyon got four years. Sterling Lyon probably should have managed to get eight years out of it. The way this Government is operating at this point, there is no question that it will be re elected for another four years.

So I think there is a number of members out there in the Opposition looking at this and getting very depressed. An Honourable Member: Contemplating their retirement. Mr. Maloway: Yes, contemplating their retirement, getting very depressed. I just want to encourage them to seek as much counselling as possible to get them through the rough roads

April 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 695 ahead, but eight years in opposition is a long time. On the other hand, I will say that, having gone through even longer periods, the time does go fast. If you occupy yourself and make reasonable speeches and do not go and try to spend more than we can possibly afford, then you will have a good time in opposition for the next eight years. I want you to know that there are only three years left to election day, and I hear you are dropping in the polls. I am told now it is 30 percent and dropping, so that is not the way things should be going.

You people are supposed to be running yourselves like a corporation. Right? You are supposed to be selling a product and you are supposed to be driving those numbers up, driving those share values up, and I do not see that happening. Those values are going down. As a matter of fact, last year in the Budget, you had two discredited leaders in this House, the former premier, the former Fi nance Minis ter. These two carried the can for that government the last 10 years and in the Budget debate last year they put on a credible show. They really had a little bit of fire.

They had just been whupped at the polls, and they were carrying the legacy of the 12 years in government, but yet they had that extra kick to carry them through the Budget. Now a year later, they have got the new group here, the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) and his cohort there, the new leader, and two days into the Budget they folded their tent and walked away. They want to talk about power lines. They want to talk about justice issues. They do not want to talk about the Budget anymore.

Now they are chasing issues of health funding in southeastern Manitoba where we have increased health funding by nearly 1 0 percent, and they got to the Adler show, their farm team down at CJOB. Right? Shooting the balls out for them to get them in shape, and then they come in here in the afternoon and that is their warm-up act in the morning. They have not a lot to go on, but I am concerned that the Member for Fort Whyte is going to start scaring business out of Manitoba. At least if he is not scaring business out of Manitoba, he is certainly going to scare them from coming into Manitoba.

So I would suggest that a number of the smarter group over there think about this, get together and maybe convince the Member for Fort Whyte that he is not doing Manitoba any service by ru nning down the economy, by running down the Government. All he is doing is he is terrorizing. He is scaring businesses who might come here for a lot of good reasons like the lowest hydro rates in North American, like the lowest auto insurance rates, like the lowest housing prices. There are all sorts of reasons why companies might leave California, might leave Alberta to come here. What is this guy doing?

He is scaring them away. He is fearmongering. He is terrorizing these busi nessmen who should be coming here because of the reduced tax rates that we are just giving them. So he is making it more difficult for us. We are reducing the corporate income tax, and he is fearmongering. Now next year we will have to reduce the corporate income tax even more. Why? Because of him. He should not be doing that. So I would suggest that perhaps the Conservative opposition might look at the all party approach. When you look back to the last 12 years when we were in opposition, we were very reasonable with the Government.

The Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) knows this. When it came to constitutional issues like Meech Lake, when it came to the Charlottetown Accord, we sat with the Opposition and came up with a common front. [interjection] That is right, but in any event we did it. I think right now we have moved further in this approach, Mr. Speaker. We now have an Agriculture Committee, and it is working. It is not here today listening to our speeches. It is out doing its work around the province. It has government members. It has opposition members.

The idea is to listen to the people and to put pressure on the federal government for more money. Now that is a co-operative approach. The Opposition is showing some good sense here in getting together in a co-operative

696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 200 1 approach just like we did on Meech Lake and Charlottetown, and we had all-party approach in the Constitution. So I think, Mr. Speaker, that the brain trust over there in the Opposition ought to consider a possibility that we could have an all-party committee on business and the economy, that we could get together and we could go out and entice business to Manitoba from Alberta and from other provinces without ha ving these people running the province down, where they would be doing something positive for the province. An Honourable Member: We are, we are.

We are raising- Mr. Maloway: No, you are scaring away business is what you are doing. I wish you would stop doing that. I think you would support your business buddies out there and more importantly support the province by having an all-party approach on the economy. So you see this idea is not getting very far with these guys right now. They represent themselves as the brain trust over there. Can you imagine when the real brain trust shows up what sort of trouble we are going to be in? Nevertheless I think the offer is there. You cannot run around the province. It does not do the province any good.

It does not ultimately do you any good to be saying bad things about the province. [interjection] I always took a balanced approach in opposition, right? I said [interjection] The former Health Minister and Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) says I said the bad things loudly and the good things quietly. No, that is not entirely true. I have always been fairly fair, realizing that governments have problems. You can never satisfy everybody in government. I have always taken the view that you do not make headway by poking each other in incremental steps.

At the end of the day, there is a cycle to politics, right? Governments are in for four or eight years and then they go out, and people make the decisions to vote, roughly, I think they say, based on four hours of looking at the issues every four years. All this running around and skulduggery that the Opposition does between elections keeps them busy, keeps them occupied. * (16 :00) The former Liberal leader talked about her caucus as being an adult day care, right? Basically, that was it. She is now in the Senate, the biggest day care in the country, geriatric day care.

She ref erred to her members as adult day care. Basically the members are in that situation where they have time on their hands. They have another eight years to go. Basically their leader will be giving them make-work projects to stay out of trouble and pass their time. So they are not risking a lot by doing something positive for the province like voting for this Budget, like getting involved in another all-party committee they are involved in agriculture right now with us-getting involved in another all-party com mittee on the economy, helping out, helping business come to Manitoba.

That in fact will put them in better stead a lot quicker with the public than if they simply go out and be totally negative and try to basically say things that are not necessarily true. The Filmon government when it was in government talked about the Manitoba Advan tage. If you look at the Budget books you see that maybe another province may be a little lower in a certain type of tax than us, but we do a comparison, and they did. I do not know how many years we have been doing this Manitoba Advantage but certainly all the years they were in government they did.

They do a tally to show the total package of living in the province of Manitoba. They show that car insurance rates are second-lowest in North America. They show that housing prices are lower. They show that hydro is the lowest priced in North America. When you put that advantage together, if we may be slightly higher on one tax or another, the total package puts Manitoba in a very, very favourable light. When we formed the Government we did not reinvent the wheel. We simply went and followed what they were doing.

We simply used the Manitoba Advantage in our arguments that Manitoba is not a bad place to invest, and here they are ignoring the Manitoba Advantage. They want to talk about some obscure little tax rate.

April 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 697 Of all the basket of taxes that provinces have, they want to pick one obscure little tax. They do not take into account that Alberta has medicare premiums. They do not take that into account. They talk about no sales tax in Albe rta. Well, that is a positive thing, but you cannot just take in isolation one tax here and one tax there. No, you cannot. You have to be fair. The public are going to see through that argument that you can just selectively take a tax here and compare it.

You have to look at the complete basket of taxes, and you know that the basket of taxes has not changed that much since you were in govern ment. You used the same arguments as us just two years ago. I think the Opposition is suffering from irresponsible opposition syndrome. We have a doctor in the House here. I should ask him to identify that syndrome, but it has certainly spread very quickly in the opposition benches. I wish there would be a cure for this negative opposition syndrome. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair An Honourable Member: Nattering nabobs of negativism. Mr.

Maloway: Nattering nabobs of negativism, yes.

Even Silicon Valley is having its problems now, and companies in Silic on Valley, if you look at what we can do in the area of broadband and what is being done in other jurisdictions, it is conceivable that over time with or without Hydro's involvement, but probably it would be better with Hydro's involvement, if we can develop dark fibre builds in some of the towns of Manitoba like Thompson and maybe Brandon and Gimli and other such areas, we can secure sufficient band width, which will help to drive up business activity in this province, will help to attract business from other provinces, and I cannot think of anything better.

You know, the major car companies test their vehicles in Thompson, all three companies. In fact, the snowmobile manufacturers all take their snowmobiles up there. They take their cars up there and they test their vehicles in Thompson. There is every reason to believe that given the proper band width that companies in Sil

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-17
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 17.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bbf3794a6944c3333428392e2a328d9ce086c1df

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).