Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Speaker VOL. XLII No. 93 • 10 a.m., WEDNESDAY, JUNE 30, 199 3 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE: ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituenci es and F1olltlcal Affiliation NAME ALC OCt< , Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT , Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERIL LI, Marianne CHOMI �1K , Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACO UAY, Loui se DE RKAGH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIED GER, Albert, Hon. DUCHA HME , Gerry, Hon. ED WARID S, Paul EN NIS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON , Gary, Hon. FINDLA Y, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDR Y, Neil GI LLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELW E H, Edward R.

HICKE S, George LAMOU FI EUX , Kevin LA THL INI , Oscar LAU REND EAU , Marcel MAL OWAY , Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDAL E, Doug McAL PINE, Gerry McC RAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHAFI D, Donald, Hon. PALLIST ER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHM AN , John PRAZN IK , Darren, Hon. REID , Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, B•ob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODRE Y, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LE IS, Judy WOWCHU K , Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompso n Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Ros1� Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. Jamal� Lakeside Ch arleswood Interlake Brandon lEast Tuxedo Sp ringfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedos;a Crescent1111 ood Gimli Point Do uglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage let Prairie Emerson Daup hin Lac du Bo• nnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone' Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verenclrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan Rivt�r Rossmere• Rupertsland The MapiEIS PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

4950 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, June 30, 199 3 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the pe tition of the honourable member (Mr. Ashton). It comp lies with the privileges and the practices of the House and comp lies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The pe tition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS there is a very serious solvent abuse problem in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS according to the RCMP over 10 0 crimes in Thompson alone in 19 92 were linked to solvent abuse; and WH EREAS there are no facilities to deal with solvent abuse victims in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS for over three years, the provincial gove rnment failed to proclaim the private member's anti-sniff bill pa ssed by the Legislature and is now prop osing to criminalize minors buying solvents even though there are no treatment facilities in northern Manitoba ; and WHER EAS for nine years, the 25 Chiefs who comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, supp orted by medical officials, police and the area Member of Parliament, have prop osed a pi lot treatment project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and WHERE AS successive fe deral Ministers of Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitme nt; and WHERE AS the Manitoba provincial gove rnment has a respo nsibility to ensure that there is adequate treatment for solvent abuse.

WHEREF ORE your pe titioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pl eased to request the Premier to consider making as a major priority, the establishment of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Sp eaker, I have the Supp lementary In formation for Legislative Review for 19 93-94 for Manitoba Cu lture, Heritage and Citizenship, for Manitoba Status of Women and for Commu nity Support Programs. Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): Mr.

Sp eaker, I wou ld like to file Supp lementary In formation for Dep artment of Government Services for '93 -94. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert to Presenting Reports by Standing and Sp ecial Com mittees? [agreed] PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Edward Helwer (Acting Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Pr ivil eges and Elections): Mr. Sp eaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Standing Comm ittee on Privileges and Electi ons. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Co mmittee on Privileges and Elections presents the following as its Second Report.

Your commi ttee met on Tuesday, June 22 at 7 p.m. in Room 255 and Tuesday, June 29, 19 93, at 2:30 p. m. in Room 254 ofthe Legislative Building to hear pub lic representation on The Freedom of Informat ion Act. At the June 29, 19 93, 2:30 p.m. meeting, your comm ittee elected Mr. Penner as Chairpe rson. Your commi ttee heard representation as follows: Rod Lauder - Private Citizen Sherry Wiebe - Liberal Research Office Russell Wychreschuk - Private Citizen Eric Marshall and Rick Walker - Manitoba Library Association Go rdon D.

Gillespie - Private Ci tizen Michael Nickerson - Private Citizen Written Submissions: Ken Rubin - Private Citizen

4951 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 30, 1993 Dave Taylor - Concerned Ci t izens of Manitoba Inc. Bill McGa ffi n and Vic Fron - Private Cit izens Gordon Earle - Ombudsman of Manitoba You r com mittee reports that it has concluded the pu blic hearing process for th e review of The Freedom of Informa tion Act. All of which is respectfully submitted. Mr. tfelwer: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honour able member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the report of the committee be received. Motle>n agreed to. * (1 005) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, wherE' we have with us this morning from the Royal Scho,ol twenty -two Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. James. This school is locat ed in the cons tituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon) . On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Asslnlbolne River Diversion Environmental Review Mr. G;ary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Sp eaker, my question is to the Dep uty Premier.

For the last three years, we have been asking the Dep uty Premier and th e Premier (Mr. Filmon) questions about the lack of data on the Assiniboine River diversion. We asked in th e Premier's Est imates as lat e as '92: Can we have a basin-wide review and have all the fact ors included in the study? The Premier at that poin t said very clearly in Hansard: Well, we have all th e information necessary to make the decision on the Assiniboine River. We further asked on Ap ril 29 to po stpone the hearings, Mr. Sp eaker, because not enough data was available. Again, the government said, oh, they are ready to go.

We asked again on May 21 , 19 93 . We quo t ed th e Shellmou th Dam report , which stated that it is difficult for water managers to make informed op erating decisions or to develop rational water management pl ans because there is not enough fact ual data on the overall water usage on the diversion. The federal government said the setme thing just recently in a report . The City of Winnipeg said the same thing.

I would like to ask the Dep uty Premier: Given tha t a former Conservative cabinet minister says that the projec t will go ahead because of the poli tical will in the cabine t and with the federal CcJ nservative gove rnment , what act ion will this g<>vernment ta ke to ensure tha t finally th e in1f ormation will be prop er and adequate and be batsin wide so that the decisions made can be fair and thorough in terms of this major project ? Hc�n. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr.

Sp eaker, when the Leader of the Op po sition talks about former ministers, I want to remind the pe op le of Manitoba and this House that he sat with a go,vernment as a former minister who developed one of Manitoba's largest project s on the Nelson River without consideration for the environment, not even the least bit of an environmental hearing from the province, an imp act on many communities that we are now payin g millions of dollars for the damages that were, in fact , incurred by decisions made. By the way, that was when he was look ing, I �1uess, for a po litical pa rty to run with.

That is really what the timing was. Mr. Sp eaker, as far as our Premier's commen ts, let me refer to what he said in Hansard on May 21, and I will read it for the member so that he knows. This is the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of the province speaking very straightforwardly : "I f there is not suff icient data, th en th e Clea n Environme nt Com mission will make tha t judgment as to whether or not they have sufficient data upon which to make a decision. "That is the way the process is.

That is the way thatt it was pu t forward in the legislation that was pa �:�sed by the New Demo cratic government, and we are following the process." That is what the process is, something that he never understood as a member who went ahead boldly, trampled over the rights of the peo ple of this prc•vince as a New Democratic go vernment . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease. The honourable Leader of the Opp osition has the floor. Mr. Doer: Mr. Sp eaker, I guess I should no t expect an answer from the Dep uty Premier about government matters.

He canno t answer any qw�stions dealing with his own specific department.

June 30, 19 93 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4952 I asked him what ac tion would th ey ta ke to ensure th at the inform ation is basin wide and thorough. The Deputy Premier did not answer that question today, and obviously they do not have a strategy to deal with that issue. I want to ask-1 know they are touchy over there. Just relax. The warm and cuddly Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) pe rhaps could keep his comments till we ask some Health questions later on in Question Period. Mr.

Sp eaker, the prop onents of the Pemb ina diversion project have predicted that the po pu lation in the area will grow from 39,000 to 1 09,000 peo pl e by the year 2040. Manitoba Bureau of Statistics has predicted that the po pula tion over the next 25 years for the same area will grow 4,8 00 pe op le. How will the government ensure that we are dealing in this project , in terms of the economic side of this project , with accurate demographic statistics and projec tions and not figures that are wildly inaccurate in terms of the project ions for po pu lation in that area? * (1 01 0) Mr. Downey: Mr.

Sp eaker, let me just atthe outset try to muster all the rationale I can to try to respond to the Leader of the Op posi tion. First of all, the member stands up and he wants growth, and now he is standing up saying he does not want growth. Next , he is asking this Legislature to answer questions that there is a process in pl ace under the Clean Envir onm ent legislat ion th at is bein g handled. Thirdly, one has to really look at the sincerity of the Leader of the New Demo cratic Party.

I am not sure whether it to ok place under the former Conservative gove rnment or under the New Democra tic gove rnment , but this is not the first diversion tha t is being talked about . There is a La Salle diversion, that we did not hear a thing about from the New Democrats. In fact , I may remember correctly, I think they were in gove rnment when it in fact took pl ace, and I do not remember whether there was an environmental hearing or process involved at all.

So here we have the Leader of the Op pos ition pl aying politics, rather than leaving the process that has been established by legislation to handle the kinds of answers that he is looking for from this Legislature. Mr. Doer: Mr. Sp eaker, again, when we consider the fact that Ed Connery has said today, from a perspective of straight politics, great support from the Conservative Party in the Pembina Valley, and also from Charlie Mayer-so that is why we are trying to ask questions from the Depu ty Premier about how we are going to deal with this issue. Mr.

Sp eaker, the Deput y Premier did not answer th at questi on . You have one dep art ment of gov ernment saying that the po pu lation will grow by 4,800. You have anot her prop onen t, th rough the Department of Natural Resources, saying it is going to grow wildly more than that. I just ask the Deputy Premier: How are you going to resolve that? Ano ther question, Mr. Speaker, a question we have raised before in th is House. The upp er Assiniboine has an entitlement for the province of Saskat chewan of 50 pe rcent water flo w . Saskatchewan is now only using 1 0 percent of that water flow that they have alloca ted.

On our side, we are also entitled to the 50 pe rcent water flow and we are using, right now at this point, 75 pe rcent of that water flow alloca tion. A question we have asked before and I think is app rop riate no w: How will th e go vernment determine the prop er water flow impac ts, and will they consider the worst-case scenario with the province of Saskatchewan using their full alloca tion of 50 pe rcent of the upp er Assiniboine River in their calcu lations on this project ? Mr. Downey: Mr.

Sp eaker, there is a process in pl ace to answer the questions to which the member refers, but let me respond to the earlier

preamble and question which was how we were going to square wit h dif fe rent dep artm ents of our gov ernment. There is a process in pl ace whic h all th e information from go vernment departments-unlike th e New De mo cratic Party, when he has th e member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) and her group strongly opp osed to th e develo pm ent of Conawa pa, he has his form er member who quit on him from Churchill, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashto n), the memb er for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) strongly supporting Cona wap a.

How is he going to square with the pu blic where he stands on the developm ent of hydro in northern Manitoba? On one hand, he wants to be with the environmen ta l group s. On th e ot her hand, he

4953 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA June 30, 19 93 wants to be with the environme ntalists. He cannot have it both ways. * (1 015 ) Home Care Program Housekeeping Services Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, when I arrived this morning at the off ice I had a letter on my desk. This letter was not from the NDP. It was not from the media. It was not from everyone else that the Minister of Health views as opposed to his plan. It was from someone who is an occupational therapist.

This person said the government's decision to take away the equipment supplies from people and to take away the Home Care support program will be the diffe rence , quo te, bet ween time and discharge home and ability to remain independent in the communi ty for thousands of Manitobans. This is from an occup ational therapist who works in the field. My question for the minister is: How could he make such a decision, which goes tot ally contrary to his own health care reform, that could result in people staying in hospitals longer or going sooner to nursing home beds? Hon. Dcmald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, no doub t my honourable friend will share that letter and we can provide the information to the writer, be,cause I am quite sure that we can answer the con c,erns that my honourable friend is stating are

part Clf that letter. Mr. Speaker, let me just correct my honour able friend sli� Jhtly when he is talking about and alleging tha t the Con tinuing Care program is being cancelled, as he would leave the impression in his

preamble. The Conti nuing Care program has inc reased in budget from the defeated budget of the NDP in 19 88, increased in the reintroduced budget in 19 88 from a fi� Jure of $34 million in 19 88 to $68 million today.

In clu sive in that program have been successive years of increase in more intensive medically required services in the Cont inuing Care program to maintain independent living of seniors in their hom es and in their apartments for far longer period of 1times than ever before in the history of the Con tinu ing Care prog ram, Sir, because of a doubling <)f the expenditures in the Con tinuing Care program, not its cancellation and discontinuation as my honour able friend the New Democ rat- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Chomlak: Mr.

Speaker, how can this minister stand here and say the program is being expanded when he has closed hundreds and hundreds of hospital beds? The minister has laid off hundreds of health care workers, and now he has taken away the supports that are provided in the com munity to help keep the people in the commun ity and out of thosE! hospital beds. Mr. Orch ard: Mr. Speake r, you know, my honourable friend simply does not provide accurate information when my honour able friend says we are taking away services in the Continuing Care program.

Let me indicate to my honourable friend, the increase in home care services in 19 92 over 19 91 . It was, Sir, in home care attendant services, up by 7.2 Jll�rcent. In registered nursing, 1 992 over 19 91 , it was up by 15 .5 percent. Licensed practical nurse's increased by 20.7 percent, 19 92 over 19 91 . Victo rian Order of Nurses services was up by 4.7 percent, 19 92 over 19 91 . This year, we exp ect home care attendant servic�es to increase by 11 percent, registered nursing by 9.5 percent, VON by 3.6 percent- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Chomlak: Mr.

Speaker, of course the minister forgot to say if you need crutches and wheelchairs and if you need home care equipment, you have to pay. llf you need those services in your home, you have 1:o pay. My final supplem entary to the minister: The minis;ter is no w charging people for those homemaking services. People will now have to go out and hire these services. We phoned the We Care !;ervice, and they said they will do it at $10.75 per hour, minimum two hours. It is going to cost someone $22.50, some on fixed or low income, to receive the same service that was provided before.

What is the minister's solution to that? Mr. 01rchard: Mr. Speaker, obviously, if the cost is that high from a provide r, that provider does not have to be hired, does it? Is that not the case? Now, Mr. Speaker, for my honour able friend, the solutictf'l is in the program, and I reiterate this for my honourable friends the New Democrats who want to attemp t to rewrite history. In 19 85, New

June 30, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4954 Democr ats in government, under Howard Pawley as Premier, Larry Desjardins as Minister of Health, created Support Services to Seniors Program, the pu rpose of which was to provide in the com munity housekeeping services, meal preparation services, laundry services at a cost to the consu mer so that the Home Care Program on behalf of taxpayers would no longer provide them.

That alternative was created by the NDP , was advanced by the NDP and is being continued by this government because it makes sense, because, Sir, it allows us to make that investment into more medical needs provided in the home, as has been done up to 20 percent- Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease. • (1 020) Child Protection Centre Budget Mr. Paul Ed wards (Leader of the Second Opposition): We have had read to us this morning a copy of a letter which was hand-delivered to the Minister of Family Services by Dr.

Charlie Ferguson from the Child Protection Centre, a world-renowned specialist in chi ld abuse and well respected throughout our co mmunity. Mr. Speaker, that letter indicates its Ch ild Protection Centre cl awback and reads that the potentia l human cost and long -term dangers are such that the very survival of the centre is at stake. The letter goes on to indicate: The way I see it we were relieved of $41 7,0 00 of our surplus funds virtually overnight by the Treasury Board.

It goes on to say that this was in spite of agreements and comm itments that they had for its pa rtial use, mainly in training projects for native workers and health nurses. It goes on to con cl ude that Dr. Ferguson interprets these swift and serious incursions on our staffing as a significant vote of nonconfidence in our unit, now accomp lished and com p lete, tha t it has been an extremely disillusioning experience, and that with all due respect , Dr. Ferguson indi cates tha t the continuance of his association with the centre must now come under close review. Now, Mr.

Speaker, my question for the minister: Why is this gove rnment tota lly unab le to do anything in our health care, in our child protection system, but alienate the best and the brightest and those who are contributing the mo st to our system? Dr. Ferguson is a world-renowned expert whom we have to be proud of, and this minister is alienating him and everyone in the system. Why can he not retain these peopl e for the good of our peop le in this provi nce? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): We have brought a variety of reforms to the child welfare system that the system has been crying out for for a numb er of years. We have put in the Child Advocate. We have put in a Quality Assurance Program. We have imp lemented the high-risk indicators. Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that we are working with the Child Protection Centre over some budget issues. We met with the administration and staff there last week to discuss budget. Our comm it­ ment is to maintain our budgeted amount for the Child Protection Centre.

There are some issues regarding the surplus from previous years. We are working with the cen tre and we will fulfill our commitment to them. Mr. Edwards: I will choose my words carefully. This minister has been dishonest to the best and the brightest people working in our system in this province, and the result is, Mr. Speaker, that we will lose their services and we are going to lose them again and again and again. My question for the minister: Two weeks ago he tol d me in this House that , we are working on many fronts to improve the abil ities of chi ld welfare agencies.

How does this improve the ability of the Child Protection Centre to dea l with child abuse in this prov ince, which this gove rnment has waxed elo quent on time and time again, and this is the result of their actions? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated that we have worked on a number of fronts. We have brought in an information system that the child welfare system has for many years been crying out for, at a cost of millions of do llars to government. We have put in pl ace a Ch ild Advocate that was first brought forward in the early 19 80s. We have made other important changes.

We also have a Native Affairs task force working on them. We do have some funding issues with the Child Protection Centre. We have indicated that there are some discussions going on about the level of the surp lus they have. Our co mmitment to the

4955 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA June 30, 1993 Child Protection Centre is in our budg et, and we will live up to that commitment. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, millions of dollars the gove rnment is spending on American experts to tell us how to run the system, and they cannot afford to allow at surplus to cover a $1 20, 000 deficit which that centre had been told would be covered out of their s.urpl us funds. They have dealt, in Dr. Ferguson's words, with a heavy hand. My final question for the minister: What is he going to do now to deal with the loss of this world·r•enowned expert to our com munity?

How is he going to give any confidence to the people of this provin ce, the people working in this sector that he can adequately deal with child abuse in our province, which is an extremely serious problem ? He has: acknowledged that. What is he going to do? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Lib EHal Party has not listened to the answer. I have indicated that we have been in discussions with the· Child Protection Centre over the surpluses that they have had over the last few years. There are some discussions about the level of that surplus..

We have made a budget commitment that we will live up to. * (1 025) Home Care Program Housekeeping Services Ms. J1.11dy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): The Minister of Health has cleverly tried to disguise his eliminaltion of the home support program under Home Care. He has tried to do that by suggesting that thi�3 will only reduce access to Home Care supp ort services for those who do not require medical services or who do not have physical or mental ailments. He has conveniently left out the fact that you cannot get into the Home Care Program unless you have a physical or mental ailment.

I want to ask the Minister of Health if this will mean, as one of his own advisers has suggested, one of lthe memb ers of the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, Evelyn Shapiro, who suggests that in fact, and I quo te for the Minister of Health, since we have to be very careful about using other people's inf ormation : that it probably means that physically or mentally impaired or frail elderly who clearly have a physi cal or mental ailment such as arthritis or dementia will only get support services if they need a medical service.

Otherwise, they will have to buy support services from private providers, and this will not only affect the elderly and their caregivers, many will struggle by themselves or pay money they cannot afford for senrices they were getting and should be getting. I want to ask the Minister of Health if this will be the impact of his cutback of the home suppor t services. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Spe·ak er, no, it will not be.

Nor was it when the NDP and my honourable friend the questioner sat around the cabinet table and approved a program call•�d Suppo rt Services to Senio rs in 19 85 that would establish those housekeeping, those laundry and those meal preparation services for seniors, for seniors to pay for them and not receive them free of charge as part of the Home Care Program. That was a policy my honourable friend thought was good for seniors in 19 85 when my honourable friend sat around the cabinet table approving that poli c:y. N•:>w, Mr.

Speaker, the abili ty to access the Con tinuing Care program is the same today as it was in 19 85, and the circumstances my honour able friend lays out about denial of service will not exist tod a1 y, nor did it exist in 19 85 when the NDP brought in this change in policy and approach and pro1 �ram. The assessment will be made prof•� ssionally. The individuals referenced to by my honourable friend, should they have those needs, will receive those services. Mr.

Sp eaker, noth ing has changed in the approach of Support Services to Seniors, the 19 85 policy of the New Democrats, except now they are in opposition and they want to manipu late the decisions they made in 19 85. That is the only thing that has changed. In the meantime, Sir, since we ca me to gove• rnment, the budget has inc reased by 10 0 perc•ent. It has doubled in Home Care from $34 million in the defeated NDP budget of 19 88 to $68 milliCln today , hardly the cutback my honourable friend continually harps on. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr.

Speaker, the minister cont inues to put misleading information on the record . I would like to table a letter that went to the minister's department in 19 89 from McBeth House indicating quite clearly that the home maintenance program was undertaken as a supplementary

June 30, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4956 program for Ho me Care, and the minister knows that. Let me ask the minister if he will fo llow the advice of a reputabl e organi zati on , th e Manit oba Association on Geronto logy who indicated some time ago that ho usecleaning is a basic service and nec essary to ma intain a cle an and safe environment. Will he do as they recommend and provide these services and ensure that all cl ients are profe ssionally assessed and the services are used judiciously based on those assessments? * (1 030) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Sp eaker, my honour able friend is correct.

The Su ppor t Servic e s to Seniors Program that she was part of at the cabinet table to pa ss, to bring into reality in 19 85, was to supp lement the Hom e Care Program. What my honou rable friend also should have said was that the seniors who were be ing so supple mented would pay for it. Will my honourabl e friend have the honesty to say that to the pe op le of Mani toba today because-[i nt erjection] Oh, my honour able friend the New Democr at Leader (Mr. Doe r), Mr. Slick, says, oh, this, that and the othe r. My honou rable friend- Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

I would remind the honou rable Minister of Health that we refer to all honour able members as honou rable members. He is the honou rable Leader of the Opposition. The honour able Minister of Health, to withdraw that remark. *** Mr. Orchard: Mr. Sp eaker, I apo logiz e for calling the Leader of the Opposition Mr. Slick.

I want to indica te to my honourabl e friend that my area, the con stituency of Pembina tha t I represented in 19 85, was on e of the fi rst constituencies to start Support Services to Seniors, and it was through that proce ss that a number of seniors in my constituency in 19 86 and 19 87 had their hom ecleaning, the hous eho ld cl eaning service, remov ed from them that was paid for by Home Care, and they were referred ove r to pay for the service as provided by the Support Services to Seniors Program, exactly in complianc e with the policy that my honou rable friend the New Democ rat sat in cabinet and approv ed.

Now, Mr. Spe aker, in 19 86, '87, '88, I could have raised that as a cutba ck, but I agree with it because even then the New Democr ats reinvested those dollars into more intensive care for seniors to live independently, just as we are doing today, Sir. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Sp eaker, let it be clear. This is a fundamental shift in pol icy - Mr. Speak er: Order, pl ease. I have be en extremely lenient with the honou rable member for St. Johns. Now would you put your question. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: I would like to now direct my final question to the Minister responsible for the Status of Wome n since almost 70 percent of home care cl ients are wome n and since wome n still maintain major responsibility for caring for their elderly family memb ers and who will now have to pick up the pie ce s from this go vernment's cutbacks. I would like to ask the Minister responsible for the Status of Wome n (Mrs. Mitchelson) if she will step in, review this matter and try to stop this grave injustice against the wome n of Manitoba. Mr. Or chard: Mr.

Spe aker, I want to try and provid e some fact to my honour able friend the memb er for St. Johns. My honou rable friend is not being very hon est with those Manitobans to whom she is com municating, because those very same wome n that my honou rable friend advoc ates for in her question today have been able to acce ss in 19 92, for instance, 7.2 pe rcent more home care attendant services, 11 pe rcent more this ye ar. In terms of registered nursing, in 1992 they were able to acce ss 15 .5 pe rcent more services from registered nurses.

This ye ar it will be 9.5 percent more service s to thos e very same wom e n on Cont inuing Care Programs. In 19 92 they were able to acc ess 20 percent mo re LPN services in the Home Care Program. In 19 92 they we re able to acc ess 4.7 pe rcent mo re services from VON. This ye ar the increase will be 3.6 pe rcent-mor e services to those very people my honou rable friend advoc ates for, rather than less. Free Trade Agreement Impact on Agricultural Industry Ms. Rosann Wo wchuk {Swan River): Mr. Sp eaker, each day we see fu rther evidence that the Free Trade Agreement which this gove rnment

4957 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 30, 1993 supports is not working, as the Americans put up block after block against our Canadian farmers. Hog producers are losing. Last week we saw an attack •On our wheat sales to Mexico, and now our sugar beet industry is at risk. I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he will admit finally that the Free Trade Agreement that he suppor ts is failing farmers and what steps he is taking Ito assure farmers and workers in Manitoba that thEI sugar beet industry will survive this attack by the American gove rnment. Hon. G;len Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speake•r. the member does not do her homework on agriculture and where Manitoba exports to. Some lionourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Swan River has put her question. The honourable Minister of Agriculture will respond. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, I want the member to listen very carefully. In 19 88, 14 percent of our global e1xp orts went to the Uni ted States. It is now over 33 percent. It has more than doubled to that market. So that market is very important to us.

It is very important that trade disputes that come up between us and the Americans on whatever issue, whether it is barley, whether it is pork, whether it is wheat, whether it is durum, whether it is sugar, that we USEI the due process of the Free Trade Agreement. Before the Free Trade Agreement was in place, we had no way to argue disputes. Now we have. In the hog industry, we won the first four disputes that were brought before that panel. We lost the fifth one. On the sugar industry, it is a very serious issue. I want the memb er to know that the U.S. exports more surgar to us than we export to th em.

It is an issue w'e have to make very clear to them, that if they do action against us we have an opportunity to retaliate that would hurt them more than they can hurt us, but that is not productive for either the Americans or the Canadians and particu larly for western Canada. We will continue to use the trade channels and the Mini:sters of Agriculture channel to put our point of view across that fair trade across that border is imp ortant, and over 90 percent of what we trade across that border is handled in a fair trade relationship. Ms ..

Wowchuk: The minister is talking about how much our trade has increased, but he is saying nothing about what has increased of the American prod uc ts into Canada. I want to ask him if he is going to continue to supp ort the Free Trade Agreement. When is he going to stand up for Manitoba farmers? Has he corn municated- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. One question at a time•. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, I can tell that member we have com municated to the federal gove rnment exactly what I have just said, verbally, by letter to at least two different ministers.

At a Ministers of Agriculture meeting next week it will be a major issue on the agenda. We stand up for Manitoba farmers continually, rather than trying to prevent us from accessing the best market in the world like that member would like to do. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speak er, will the minister admit that the policies he is suppo rting are failing? Moving toward a contract system that the Wheat Board has been forced to move toward is only going to hurt Canadian farmers, and the barley pro ducers in this province are going to lose by mo ving to a continental market. He has done nothing to suppo rt Manitoba farmers.

Mr.IFindlay: Mr. Speaker, I am just surprised that memb er would put that comment on the record, saying that the Wheat Board is forced to move to co ntracts. Mr. Speaker, the Wheat Boar d volunt arily introduced contracts in the mid-1 980s for barley, and for the last two years they have had six cont ract series for barley. The Wheat Board did that vo luntarily, because they know that if they are going to sell a product they have to know what they have in the system that they can have access to sell. They have done that for fa rmers on a continuous basis.

More and more, they have done it in several varieties of wheat also as they access this market. That is the way the industry has gone , and farm•�rs like the choice of being able to do that. I can �Juarantee you, Mr. Speaker, that farmers want the (:hoice and they supp ort the process. This startEtd in 1985 . The member is tot ally wrong in her statement this morning.

June 30, 19 93 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 4958 Asslnlbolne River Diversion Environmental Review Mr. Paul Ed wards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Environment. Mr. Speaker, the Clean Envi ronment Commis­ sion has now been for ced to recognize the fact that there has never been a full-basin study of the Assiniboine River-[interjection ] The same thing I am saying now. Mr.

Speaker, back when this gove rnment was content to sell us down the river on Rafferty-Alame da, and again today, what the province needs, what the people who live in this province in that water basin need is to know what the consequences of drawing water from that river will bring. Will the minister make a comm itment today to doing a full-basin review of that waterway, given that the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) is not sure whether or not this province- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Glen Cummin gs (Minister of En vironment): Mr.

Speaker, what I find so disturbing about questions from the Leader of the Second Opposition is that this is the gentleman who questioned the very veracity of the Clean Environment Com mission. Now that the Clean Environment Comm ission has demo nstrated its independence and it is prepared to seek answers to all questions that they believe are relevant, all of a sudden now he wants to tell them how they should do their work. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, what I woul d like to do is tell the minister how to do his job. What is also disturbing about this decision is why it took so long to make this decisio n.

My question for the minister: Is he prepared to do a full-b asin review of this waterway? Is he prepared to do that, given that we have now had two major projects come forward which have shown that we simply do not know, the minister certainly does not know, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) does not know, the people involved do not know what the consequences of drawing- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, he to tally ignores the fact that we have said continually that this process will be clean, un fette red, and the commis sion will be able to determine any facts that they consider relevant to making a decision. If he now wants to interfere in that process, let him stand up and say so. • (1 040) Mr. Edwards: What the minister fails to recognize is that the Clean Environment Commi ssion said it was the government itself that did not come forward with sufficient information.

It was the Department of Natural Resources itself that did not have the facts before it, despite the fact the minister stands up and tells us how this is going to be so wonderfu l. Now, Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister: When is he, when is this gove rnment going to recognize that it is important to think first and act seco nd, and do a full -basin review of the Assiniboine River, so that we know, and the people who are drawing water from that river and want to draw more water, know what the consequences are? Will he commit to that review? Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, the com mission has not yet released the questions that it wants additional information on. Mr. Edwards: I am asking you, Glen. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, well, the Leader of the Second Opposition says he is asking me. Does he want me to take over the work of the commission, and politically direct the decision? That is the kind of foolishness he is asking for. The commi ssion will have access to any information that it needs, and it will make the decision in an unfettered way when it is satisfied with that information. [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honou rable Leader of the Second Opposition party , you had an opportunity to put your questions. I believe you have your answer. Now, we are going straight to the honou rable member forT ranscona. Vehicle Inspections Fee

Schedule Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, with the introduction of Bill 36, this gove rnment has shifted policy away from mandato ry, pu bli cly

4959 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA June 30, 19 93 ope rat•�d vehicle inspection programs to private for-pro 1'it vehicle inspections. Sin c: e the Mi nister of Hig hways and Transportation is setting the user fee on this for­ profit program, what will be the maximum allowable charge that Manitobans will have to pay for vehicle inspections, resulting from Bill 36? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Well, Mr.

Speaker, you know, the opportunity has been there to debate and hear the member's comm ents on the record during the bill process, but the member is raising the question, and I thought I had supplied all the information with my spretadsheets, exactly as to what was going to happ en. In the· case of the mandatory vehicle inspection, the vehicles would have to be safety inspected before they can be registered. Un der the regulati<ons, it is our intention to take and put a maximum that can be charged-not a fee-j ust a maximum that can be ch arged. We have not established that. It will be done under regulation.

We are looking at between $35 and $40 as a maximum. Bill 36 Regulations Tabling Request Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Since the minister has indicated that the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation vehicle inspection program will be eliminatt�d with the passage of Bill 36, have the regulatietns been drafted for this bill, and will the minister table a copy? Hon. Albert Drie dger (Minister of Highways and Transpc,rtatlon): No, Mr. Speaker, we have not finished drafting the regulations yet. Once the regulations are drafted, I am prepared to make them public. Vehicle Inspections Employee Status Mr.

Dal')rl Reid (Transcona): Since there are 23 jobs at !�take cu rrently in the MPI C inspection program, will the Minister responsible for MPI C indicate if these employees will be redeployed within gove rnment departments, or will they be laid off? Hon. Glttn Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public lnsuranc:e Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, the memb er is mak i ng some rather sweeping assumptions.

First of all, he has forgotten to look at the fact that MPIC, because of the wearing out of some large portion of its equipment, has been forced to run their program at a slightly reduced rate. He should not assume that any thing is going to occ ur overnight as a result of these changes. The movement to a different system, which will catch many more vehicles-and I think the member should be supp ortive of the fact that a far larger number of vehicles will, in fact, be inspected for roadl safety.

This system will provide a lot more assurance to the public, and he should not be getting ahead of himself in terms of where the MPIC process will go. Human Resources Opportunity Centre Parkland Office Closure Mr. John Plohman (Dauphi n): Mr. Speaker, toda�{ is a dark day for Dauphin and the Parkland because today is the day that the Parkland Human Resources Oppor tunity Cen tre is scheduled to close'.

As a result of the decision of this minister and this gov ernment, this service will be lost to the people of the Parkland where it has provided thou!�ands of Parkland residents with a valuable servk:e over the last 17 years. This minister has not even provided an explanation to the people of Dauph in. I want to ask the Minister of Education whether she will now travel to Dauphin, meet with the peop l1e and explain to the people of Dauphin and justify the decision that she made to close the Parkland Human Resources Opportunity Centre. Will she at least give them the courtesy of that explanation? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and -rralnlng): Mr. Speaker, we have discussed this issue for a number of hours in the Estimates process. I explained to the member the difficult deci�; ions gove rnment had to make. I also discussed with him the alternate way in which services will be provided to the Parkland area. In addition, I also have spoken to the member and e•xplained to him that we have retained the Singlet Parent Job Access Program in the Parkland area to assist those individuals, and we will be making alternate arrangements from the Westman area t•o also assist the people of the Parkland area.

June 30, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 4960 Mr. Speaker: Ti me for Oral Qu estio ns has expired. *** Mr. Speaker : I am asking for leave of the House to revert to Ministerial Statements and Tabl ing of Reports. Is there leave to table a report? [agreed] TABLING OF REPORTS (cont i nued) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, and to the members of the House, I inadvertently forgot to table something that members would want. I am required, under The Legislative Assembly Act, to report yearly on the amou nts paid to members of the Legislative Assembly. I am tabli ng that

schedule right now. Nonpolitical Statement Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for St. Vital, does she have leave to make a nonpolit ical statement? [agreed] Mrs. Shirley Render (St. VItal): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to draw attentio n to a teacher at Glenlawn Colleg iate. He is Robert Cordingley, an industr ial arts supervisor, who was just awarded the very coveted Dr. D.W. Penner Award. Robe rt Cor dingley has contr i buted to the enric hment of both students and teachers in a variety of way s.

Amon g other th in gs, he co-or dinates the division 's Partners in Edu cation program, whic h provi des students with work experience. He is also involved with the Gordon Foundat io n, which is a new student prog ram that is go ing to be brought in at Glenlawn Collegiate. St. Vital, indeed, Manitoba, can be very proud of Robert Cordingley. Thank you. Committee Changes Mr. George Hlckes (Point Dougl as): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the memb er for Swan River (Ms.

Wow chuk), that the com posi tion of the Stand i ng Comm it tee on Econom i c Development, June 29, 19 93, eff ective 7 p.m ., be amended as fol lows: Broadway (Mr. Santos) for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli); Wellington (Ms. Barrett) for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowc huk), that the com posit ion of the Standing Com mittee on Law Amendments be amended as fol lows: Dau phi n (Mr. Plohman) for Swan River (Ms. Wow chuk); Transcona (Mr. Reid) for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) for Monday, July 5, 9 a.m. Motions agreed to. Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimll): I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Commit tee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: the member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) for the member for Robl in-Russell (Mr. Derkach) ; the member for Ass inibo ia (Mrs. Mcin tosh) for the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer); the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey) for the memb er for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae). I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs.

Render), that the compos ition of the Standing Comm it tee on Econom i c Dev elopm ent be amended as foll ows: the memb er for Turtle Mou ntai n (Mr. Rose) for the memb er for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) ; the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gi lleshamm er); the memb er for Riel (Mr. Duch arme) for the memb er for Em erson (Mr. Penner). I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the compos ition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development for Monday, July 5, 19 93, at 9 a.m., be amended as foll ows: the member for Emerson (Mr.

Penner) for the member for Gi mli (Mr. Helwer); the memb er for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) for the memb er for Turtle Mount ain (Mr. Rose). Motions agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (G_overnment House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like to annou nce th at the Stand i ng Comm it tee on Econom ic Development will sit today at 4 p.m. and Friday at 9 a.m., if necessary, to cons ider Bill22. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable gove rnment House leader for that informat ion. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, Report Stage, would you call the bi lls as shown on the Order Paper.

4961 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 30, 19 93 REPORT STAGE Bill 4- The Retail Businesses Sunday ShOIPPing (Temporary Amendments) Act Hon. l:rlc Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tc)urlsm): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Mi nister of Go vernment Services (Mr. Duchat rme), that Bill 4 , The Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Temporary Amendments) Act (Lo i sur l'ouverture des comm erces de detail les jours f.eries-modif ications temporaires), reported from the St anding Com mittee on Economic Development, be concu rred in. Motion agreed to.

Bill S-The Northern Affairs Amendment Act Hon. ,James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I mo ve, seconded by the MinistEH of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Dried�rer), that Bill 5, The North ern Af fa irs Amendment Act (Lo i modi f iant Ia Lo i sur les affaires du Nord), reported from the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments, be concu rred in. Motion agreed to. • (1 050) Bill 6-- The Real Property Amendment Act Hon. J•ames McCrae (Minister of Justice and Att ormty General): Mr. Speaker, I mo ve, second c!ld by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Mann ess), that Bill 6, The Real Property Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les bien reels), as amended and reported from the Standing Commi ttee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Bill 7-The Builders' Liens Amendment Act Hon. Jstmes McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorn e·y General): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 7, The Builders' Liens Amendment Act (Loi modi f iant Ia Lo i sur le privilege du constru cte ur), reported from the Standing Committ c�e on Law Amendments, be concu rred in. Motion ftgreed to. IBIII 8- The Insurance Amendment Act Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) , that Bill 8, The lnstJrance Amendment Act; Lo i modi f iant Ia

Loi sur les assurances, as amended and reported from the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Bill 11 -The Regional Waste Management A.uthorltles, The Municipal Amendment ;and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I mo ve, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cumm ings), that Bill 11, The Re�1 ional Waste Management Authorities, The Mu nici pal Amen dmen t and Co nsequential Am cm dments Act (Lo i concernant les of fi ces regionaux de gestion des deschets, modif iant Ia Lo i sur les municipalites et apportant des modi f ications correlatives a d'autre lois), as amended and reported from the Standing Comm ittee on Law Ame•ndments, be concu rred in. I mo ve on behalf of the Minister of Rural Devc!llopment (Mr. Derkach) . Motlion agreed to. EUII 12-The International Trusts Act Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I mo ve, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.IVlanness), that Bill 12, The In ternational Trusts Act (Lo i sur les fi ducies internationales), reported from the Stand ing Com mittee on La w Amendments, be concu rred in. Mr. :Speaker: It has been mo ved by the honourable Attorney General, seconded by the ho no urable Minister of Finance, that Bill 12, The In ternational Trusts Act ; Lo i sur les fi ducies int ernationales, reported from the Standin g Commi ttee on Law Amendments, be concu rred in. AgreEtd? Some:� Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No?

The question bef ore the Hous e!� is that Bill 12, The In ternational Trusts Act; Lo i sur les fi ducies internationales, reported from the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments, be concurred in.

June 30, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4962 All those in favou r of the mo tion, please say yea. Some Honour able Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honour able Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opp osition House Leader): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. * (1 10 0) Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote having been requested, call in the members. • (1 200) The question before the House is that Bill 12 , The In ternational Trusts Act;

Loi sur les fiducies internationales, reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, be concurred in.

A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Alcock, Ashton , Barrett, Ca rstairs, Cerilli, Chomi ak, Cummin gs, Da cquay, Dewar, Doe r, Downey, Driedger, Duc harme, Edwards, Enns, Ernst, Evans (Brandon East), Filmon, Findlay, Friesen, Gaudry, Gilleshammer, Gray, Helwer, Hickes, La moureux, La th lin, Laurendeau , Maloway, Manness, Ma rtindale, McA lpine, McCrae, Mcintosh, Mitchelson, Orchard, Pallister, Penner, Plohman, Praznik, Reid, Reimer, Render, Rose, Santo s, Stef anson, Sveinson , Vo drey, Wasylycia-Leis, Wowchuk. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 50, Nays 0. Mr.

Speaker: The motion is accor dingly carried. Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I may have risen too early. Did you want to offi cially declare that biii- Mr. Speaker: The motion is accor dingly carried. Mr. Manness: Okay, thank you . I am sorry. Would you con tinue then Report Stage, Bill 13 . Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to calling Bill13 , I would like to draw the attention of honou rable members to the loge to my right, where we have with us this af ternoon Mr. George Henderson, the form er MLA for Pembina.

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning. 8111 1 3-- The Manitoba Employee Own ership Fund Corporation Amendment Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), that Bill13 , The Manit oba Em ployee Ownership Fun d Corporation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituent en corporation le Fonds de participation des travailleurs du Manitoba), as amended and reported from the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments, be concu rred in . Mr.

Speaker: It has been move d by the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefan son) , seconded by the ho nou rable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), that Bill 13 , The Man itoba Emp lo yee Ownership Fu nd Corporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituent en corporation le Fonds de participation des travailleurs du Manitoba, as amended and reported from the Standing Commi ttee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Agreed? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No? All those in favour of the mo tion, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr.

Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honour able Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker : In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Op position House Leader): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote havi ng been requested, call in the members. The question before the House is that Bill 13 , The Manit oba Emp loyee Ownership Fund Corporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituent en corporation le Fonds de participation des travailleurs du Manitoba, as amended and reported from the Standing Commi tte9 on Law Amendments, be concu rred in.

A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Alcock, Ashton , Barrett, Ca rstairs, Cerilli, Chomiak, Cum mings, Dacquay, Derkach, Dewar, Do er, Downey, Driedger, Ducharme, Edwards, Enns, Ernst, Evans (B randon East), Evans

4963 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA June 30, 19 93 lnterlal<e), Filmon, Findlay, Friesen, Gaudry , Gilleshammer, Gray, Helwer, Hickes, Lamoureux, lat hlin, lau rendeau, Ma loway, Manness, Martinda le, McAlpi ne, McCrae, Mci nt osh, Mitchelson, Orchard, Pallister, Penner, Plohman, Praznik, Reid, Reimer, Render, Rose, Santos, Stefanf! iOn, Sveinson, Vodrey, Wasylycia-l eis, Wow chuk Madam Deputy Clerk {Beverley Boslak): Yeas 52; Nay:s 0. Mr. Speaker: The motion is accor dingly carried. House Business Hon. Clayton Manness {Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, the House agreed yesterdety to sit special hours today, and we are infringin!� upon that time; however, I am wondering whether or not I might ask leave of the House to conside1 r a particula rly important bill that needs some attention before the end of June. I think the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) has had discussion with the various opposition critics, and I would therefore ask whether or not there is leave of the House that we can do report stage on Bill38 and also third reading. Mr.

Speaker: Is there leave of the House to do report stage on Bill 38, and also leave would be granted for third reading? Is there leave of the House? An Honc• urable Member: No. Mr. Spe1:1ker: leave is denied. Okay, leave has been denied. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speake r, I am sure that leave would be granted if in fact the minister is quite prepared to say that we will be receiving Royal Assent on this particular bill today. Then we would be more than happy to give it leave. Mr. Speaker: Well, leave has been denied. Okay, Jet us try again. Do you want me to ask for leave again? Mr. Man 111 ess: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if the member is saying that Royal Assent has to be a condition­ gladly. ��s long as we can find lieuten ant­ Govern olr Dumo nt, we certainly will do Royal Assent. Mr. Speal!(er: His Honour is ready. Is them leave of the House now? We need unanimous consent for report stage, and also we need unanimous consent for third reading of Bill38. Is there leave on both occa sions? [agreed] Bill 38- The City of Winnipeg J'mendment, Municipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and

Summary Convictions Amendment Act Hon. Jim Ernst {Minister of Urban Affairs): I mov1t, seconded by the Minister of In dustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson), (by leave) that Bill38, The City of Winnipeg Amendment, Municipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and

Summary Convictions Amendment Act (loi modifiant Ia

loi sur le1 Ville de Winnipeg, Ia

loi sur Jes municipalites, Ia

loi sur l'amenagement du territoire et Ia

loi sur les pour suites som maires), as amended and reported from the St anding Comm ittee on Municipal Affairs, be concu rred in. Mothln agreed to. TBIRD READING S-- AMENDED BILLS Bill 38- The City of Winnipeg Amendment, Municipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and

Summary Convictions Amendm ent Act Hon. Jim Ernst {Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Sp eaker, I mo ve (by leave), seconded by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), that Bill 38, The City of Winnipeg Amendment, Municipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and Sum mary Con vic tions Amen dment Act (loi modifiant Ia

loi sur Ia Ville de Winnipeg, Ia

loi sur les municipalit es, Ia

Loi sur l'amenagement du territoire et Ia

loi sur les poursuites

sommaires), be now mad a third time and passed. Motion agreed to. Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leade,r): Mr. Speaker, can the lie uten ant­ Governor be summoned? I wo,uld like then to make one announcement of House business. House Business Mr. Mlmness: Mr. Speaker, I would indicate that it is my understanding that we probably will not requirE• the sitting of the Standing Committee on Economic Development to deal with Bill 22 on Friday. I will though call that comm ittee to begin clause by clause on Monday morning at 9 a.m.

June 30, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 4964 Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable gove rnment House leader for that information. While we are waiting for His Honour I believe the honourable member for Gimli wants comm ittee changes. We will do your comm ittee changes. * (1 310 ) Committee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): I move, seconded by the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister), that the comp osition of the Standing Commi ttee on Economic Development for Monday, July 5th, 9 a.m. sitting, be amended as follows: the member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik) for the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Do wney). Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): I move, seconde d by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that the Standing Commi ttee on Economic Development be amended as follows: Burrows (Mr. Martindale) for Thompson (Mr. Ashton); St. Johns (M s. Wasy lycia-Leis) for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli); Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). Motions agreed to. ROYAL ASSENT Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I am advised that His Honour is about to enter the Chamber. All members, p lease rise.

His Honour Yvon Dumont, Lieutenant-Gove rnor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the Hou se at 1: 12 p.m., and being seated on the throne, Mr. Speaker addressed His Honour in the following words: May it please Your Honou r: The Legislative Assembly, at its present session, passed a bill, which in the name of the Assembly I present to Yo ur Ho nour, and to which bill I respectfully request Your Honour's assent: Bill 38- The City of Winnipeg Am endment, Municipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and Summa ry Convictions Am endment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Ville de Winnipeg, Ia

Loi sur les munic ipalites, Ia

Loi sur l'amenagement du territoire et Ia

Loi sur les poursuites

sommaires. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor doth assent to this bill. (His Honour was then pleased to retire.) Mr. Speaker: Please be seated. House Business Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, as agreed to by the House yesterday, I will be moving the motion to go into Supply. The two sections of Supply will convene and will stay in session until fo ur o'clock this afternoon. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion presen ted. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Mrs. Sharon Carst alrs (Riv er Heights): Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise on a grievance. Mr. Speaker, in my seven years in this Legislature I have used my grievance very rarely. Having had a fall yesterday in the Legislature which has left me bruised from my neck down to my feet, I can tell you that the last thing I needed to do today was to stand up and grieve. I am standing on a grievance today on an issue that concerns me deeply.

In the Estimates process of Family Services, I specifically asked the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) about the cutbacks to the Child Protection Centre. I was assured by the minister that the Child Protection Cen tre at the Health Scienc es Ce ntre would not receive any more cutback than the 3.8 percent that has been afforded to every other branch of gove rnment. I took the minister at his word. I believed, because every member of this House knows how passiona tely I am conce rned about chil d protection, that the minister would not betray the members of this Hous e.

I have to assure this House today that I feel betrayed. I feel betrayed on behalf of every child who has ever been abused in this nation. I feel betrayed because children are not going to get the kind of protection they deserve, because this gove rnment has chosen to cut back well beyond the 3.8 percent that this minister assured me in Estimates would be the bottom line. Well, it is not the bottom line.

4965 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA June 30, 19 93 I do not know how members of this House feel about child abuse, but I know how I feel about it. I know h:>w I felt as a child when someone close to my fam ily chose to take me into his bed. I know how it 11elt to be betrayed by an adult that I had trusted and had faith in as a child. I know what it has felt like to live with that abuse all of my life. I was one of the lucky ones. My abuse was not severe and my abuse was not long term. I was not beaten to a pulp. I did not have my hands put on stoves. I was not hit with belt bu ckles.

I was sexual!�· assaulted. Yes, it affe cted my entire life and still affects my life. As I write in my book, I still have flashbacks. I remember when I least expect to remember the betrayal that I felt as a child. We had an individual at the Health Sciences Centre, Dr. Charlie Ferguson, who spent his life advocati ng on behalf of children, children who were abused to a far greater degree than I was ever abused. * (1 320) This man has an international reputation for identifying, for advoca ting and for working on behalf of childnm who have been betrayed.

This doctor has now told the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) that he will no longer serve on an advisory committee because he feels such a sense of betrayal for the work that he has done on behalf of ch ildren in this pro vince. This is a man who, to my knowledge, is not a member •:>f any political party, who has attacked the New Democr atic Party when he was in that positio n, when he felt tha t they were not representing children adequat ely, who has attacked the Conse rvative Party when he felt that they wen� responding inadequately.

I have every confidenc:e would have attacked the Liberal Party if we had had the power and we had been behaving inadequately. More power to him, because it was by his remaining above the political mainstream that we was unquestionable in his role of advocate on behalf of children. That is where he felt that he could make his contribution to society. So what has happened? Well, if facts are to be believed, the situation was that when we saw the Estimates line for the Child Protection Centre, it had an enormous decrease.

When I looked at the grants to external agencies as part of my function as the critic, I targeted in on that one, because it was very quickly obvious it was not 3.8 percent. SC> I asked the minister, and the minister said they had a surplus. I che ck ed with the Child Prot1�c tion Centre, and I was assured by the Child Prot,a ction Cen tre that they indeed did have a surplus.

Sc' knowing they had a surplus, I specifically said to th�� gove rnment, if you took that surplus and the decr1:�ase in your funding, can I be assured that there will be no less than the 3.8 percent that has been afforded to every single other agency? The minis>ter assured me that that is what the case was, that it would 3.8 percent and no more. Well, it is more. It is significantly more , and we are, as a result, jeop ardizing those who need the greatest amount of protection in our society. Those who are bet re1yed by adults when they are their most vulnerable. I cannot, Mr.

Speaker, ju stify un der any circumstances that kind of betrayal. I did not like the 3.8 percent, but I accepted that that is what the government was doing with every department, and they were going to do it with this one, and they were going to do it with that external agency. I could not stop that. But I can assure you that if I had known it was more than that amount of money, we would still be in Chi,ld and Family Service Estimates, because I could not have lived with that kind of betrayal. I think it is important, on the record, to read exactly what Dr.

Charles Ferguson has had to say to the minister: Dear Mr. Gilleshammer: Re: Child Protection Centre Financial Clawback. I hesitate to write this letter, but feel compelled to inform you directly of what has transpired, the potential human costs and long-term dangers for the very survival of the centre. The numb ers are very c1:>n fusing and have been related to you by Dr. Agnes Bishop.

The way I see it, we were relieved of $41 7,000 of our surplus funds virtually overnight by the Treasury Board, or so your Support branch clai ms, this in spite of agreements and comm iitments we had for its partial use mainly in training projects for native workers and health nurses•. Once this retrieval of funds got underway, an additional 4 percent was sliced off making a total of

June 30, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 4966 8 percent, resulting in a serious deficit forcing us at the hosp ital's direction to cho ose to delete $1 20,000 of staff. As a result of this maneuver, we have now lost our nurse co-ordinator, our nurse in charge of education and training, as well as over half of one physician's time. I interpret these swift and serious incursions on our staffing as a significant vote of nonconfidence in our unit now acc ompli shed and complete. (Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) This has been an extremely disillusioning experience, distracting us from our work and demo ralizing the entire ho spital. Please be info rmed, and with all due respect, that my association with the centre and members of the Support branch has to come under close review as to its continuance. The heavy hand of government has fal len. I state this with great sadness and concern given the cause we are all attempting to serve. Yours truly, Charles Ferguson, M.D., C.M. At the same time, he sent a letter to Mr.

Ron Fenwick, Executive Director: For several months now, well before the current series of pro foundly disturbing events, I have contem plated resigning from the provincial advisory comm ittee. Please accept this letter as notice of resignation as of August 31 , 19 93. As you are aware, I have at least two areas of interest remaining relevant to this body, both of which I will attempt to discharge. You will receive com munic ations on these in the near future. Mr. Acting Speaker, we are as a result of this action not just losing Dr. Charles Ferguson from the advisory committee.

We are, if his letter to the minister dated June 18 , 19 93, is to be believed, and I have no reason to not believe it, seriously jeopardizing the strength, the very existence of the Child Protection Centre. Mr. Acting Speaker, just who goes to the Child Protection Ce ntre? Children who have been abused, that is who goes. They are referred from the Child and Family Services agencies. They are taken there by police. The pictures that they have in their files are not to be believed by human beings who care about children.

We simply reject what they show us, because we do not want to see examples of that kind of physical abuse. We do not want to hear that three-month-old babies have been sexually assaulted. We do not want to hear that kind of thing. Dr. Charles Ferguson works with that kind of thing every single day of his life. He lives with it. We want to turn the newspaper as we see it, because we do not want to deal with the horror of it, and he lives with it every single day. But he is not alone. All of the staff of that centre deal with it every single day.

Individuals who have been with the staff for years have been laid off. They have been given layoff notices. The nurse who has been deeply involved in education and training has been laid off. Who is going to educate the medical residents and the interns? Who is going to educate the nurses? Who is going to go into the inner-city schools and help teachers to identify a complaint that is legitimate, give them the process that they should go forward, the do cu mentation evidence that needs to be gathered?

Who is going to work with our native Child and Family Service agencies, because tragically many of the children who come to the Child Protection Centre are native? Who is going to provide the support to families, because ofte n the abuse is not apparent? It can be a babysitter, it can be a friend, it can be a relative. Can you imagine the agony of knowing that your child has been abused? Almost everyone in this House has children.

Can you imagine what it feels like to discover that your child has been abused, and that you want to get support and you want to make sure that support is the correct support, that you get that child into appr opria te counselling? The family learns what techniques they have to use to make that child feel like a worthwhile human being. * (1 330) Because abuse is not a mo mentary thing. It does not happen and then is forgotten from the consciousness of the individual.

It rests with that individual forever, and unless that person has the strength and is given the supp ort to obtain that strength to help them overcome that abuse, then we can see a negative effect upon them for their lifetime. It is not a short-term thing, and that is what Dr. Charles Ferguson and his staff provided for these people. Why would the gove rnment have acted this way? Well, I have to say that in the first instance the information I was given was that it was a mistake, that they had not meant to claw back at all, that they

4967 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 30, 19 93 had only meant to claw back the reserve above what was necessary for the functioning of a Child Protection Centre, and somebody made a mistake and thety clawed back too much. So they met with the min ister. I understand the meeting was sometime on the 24th of June in order to- An Honourable Member: No. Mrs. Cnrsta lrs: Well, if it was not the 24th of June then I am incorrect about that date. Maybe it is another date. I do not care what the date was. It is irrelevant. An Honour able Member : It is next week. Mrs.

C11rstalrs: The date was supposed to have been, according to the information I was given, the 24th of , June. There is only one way for the minister to deal with this mat1ter. If, in fact, Mr. Acting Speaker, it was a mistake and it was meant with no desire to in any way impact upon the Child Protection Cen tre be yond the cut afforded to every single other agency, then the minister has a very simple chore to do. He simply has to admit the mistake and restore the funding immediately. But the reality is, these people have already been given their layoff notices.

So why was the mistake not corrected, if indeed that is what it was. And if it was not just a simple mistake, Mr. Acting Speaker, then it is even more serious because it means that this government, with intention , has betrayed the children of this pro vince. I would prefer to think that is not the case. I would pn�fer to believe that it has been a simple mistake and that it will be rectified by this governmEmt and that the Child Protection Centre will indeed be able to con tinue to func tio n. Obviousl)l Dr.

Ferguson no longer believes that, because i'f he did believe it was a simple mistake, and if he did believe that mistake was going to be rectified, then I am convinced that he would not have submitted his resignation from the advisory com mitteo. (Mr. Sp,eaker in the Chair) Why els1e would he have done this, because I do not think I am betraying his confidence when I tell you that it was Dr. Ferguson himself who told me he honestly believed it was a simple mistake and that it would bEt rectified.

He did not want to believe the gove rnment was acting in such a manifestation of lack of concern for children who had been abused. He did not want to believe that, but I can only beliove, since his resignation has been sent on the 27th of June, that between the time I spoke with him earlier and the 27th of June he now does beliEtve that, for whatever reason. It is true. The Child Protection Centre has been a th,orn in the side for every government, every single one of them. That is exactly what they shoU!Id be, a thorn in the side.

No government, no matt,er how well intentioned, is probably ever going to be able to deal with every single abuse that is out therE!. I do not have unrealistic expec tations for gove rnments. I know they work within the confines that they are allowed to do, and that is exactly why you have a centre like the Child Protection Centre that says you are still not doing enough. They say it ove'r and over again, so that we conti nue to make stridEis, so every time we make a little bit more efforlt. That is what they should be doi ng, Mr. Speaker.

We should not take offence as politicians becaiJSe they criticize us in that way, but that is what we have done. Mr. Sp eaker, I think all of us wanted to go into Estimates to day. All of us wanted to pass some bills today. All of us, I think, with perhaps some exceptions, would like to start winding down this session. I, for one, would like to wind down this sessie>n. I have moved on to another stage of my life, and I have made it very clear that one of the things1 I want to do is to advocate on behalf of childrEm. I want to do it in a nonpolitical way.

I do not want to do it as a Liberal any more than I would want to do it as a Tory or as a member of the NDP. I wan't to do it as somebody who has suffered abuse and who has something to offe r. In my years in politics, I have acquired a certain amount of skill. I, for example, learned how to raise mone�·, and that was one of the issues that I felt that I would be able to do, that I would be able to put togetht9r a foundation for which I was prepared to give a considerable amount of proceeds of my own book to prevent child abuse, because governments unfortunat ely tend to put very little money into protect ion.

The)l are forced-this is not an attack on this gov ernment-gove rnments are forced to address things that happen. They are forced to look after people who have been hurt, but when governments have to cut back, it is traditional that they cut back on prevention programs because it is hard to prove any tangible benefit from a protection program.

June 30, 19 93 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 4968 This applies to all governments of all political stripes no matter where they are located. When you sit at Treasury Bo ard and you say, well, I cannot cut this program because it delivers a specific service and I serve 1 ,000 people and this is what happens when I serve those 1 ,000 people , it is very hard to cut that program.

When you look at prevention programs and you say, well, I think it serves this many people, and I think it has this result, and I think maybe it will have this benefit, but you can never prove the ef fectiveness of a prevention program. * (1 340) As a result, prevention programs are almost always the first to be cut. Yet, until we get to the root cause of abuse and until we start dealing with those things which can prevent that root cause of abuse, i.e., through prevention, then we will never stop the scourge of abuse within our society.

The Child Protection Centre, indeed, does have a mandate for prevention, but what has happened as a result are those programs which might be consi dered in any way, shape or form to be prevention programs are now all going to be eliminated. They are no longer going to exist. So how are we ever going to deal with the perpetuity of this abuse? How are we going to teach our young people that not only should they not be abused, that it is their right as a citizen living in this country not to be abused, mentally, physically or sexually?

How are we going to prevent those children once they have been abused from abusing their own children? Unfor tunately, that is the tragic cycl e. A child who has been hit, demeaned , beaten and assaulted sexually all too often ends up as an adult who assaults and beats physically, sexually and mentally. That is the pattern. We know that is the case. Here we had a centre, a cen tre where people from all over the world came to say, show us your methodology, sho w us your treatment mo dality , show us your prevention programs, because Dr.

Ferguson had such an international reputation-has such an international reputation -t hat they wanted to know what he was doing so that they, too, could take that information and put similar plans in place in their parts of the world and in other parts of this country. Now we are in jeop ardy. We are in jeopardy at the present moment from losing him from an advisory committee. But is that a first step? I do not know. It is part of what he does. Does he now back off of other activities as well? I hope not.

I hope that this minister will act in such a way that we will not lose either the centre or the incredible capacity of Dr. Charles Ferguson, because, Mr. Speaker, we cannot afford it. We cannot afford to lose the strength of this individual or, mor e importantly, the strength of the centre. We cannot afford to treat our children in what appears to be an absolute act of betrayal. When you are a chil d, you sometimes exaggerate the things that happen to you . Shortly after my birth, my mother was very ill, and so my 12 -year-old sister-1 was born the day after her birthday- became my substitute mother.

I had in those days extremely thick hair. I still have a pretty good head of hair on me, a little grayer. But she used to stand me every night between her legs, and she used to put my hair in ringlets. I had big fat ringlets, if the pictures are to be believed. I do remember standing there and having her whip them around her finger and putting rags to tie them to gether. I am convinced that that was the reason, as a child, that I was chosen at the age of four to present flowers to the princess royal, because I probably had fatter ringlets than anybody else, and ringlets were the thing in that particular day.

When I was in Grade 2, I rememb er leading the first holy com municants in as the angel because, again, I am sure, of my ringlets. When she was married when I was only seven years old , my mother had my hair all cut off. I thought as a child that was the worst thing that had ever happened to me. Here my beautiful hair had been, in one fell swoop, all cut off. I thought they had cut my hair to look like a boy's. Now that I look at the haircut in pictures, it really did not look like a boy's, but I was convinced it looked like a boy's because I had had such wonderful ringlets before.

So to me, this was the worst thing that had ever happened to me. My sister got married, she deserted me, and all of my ringlets were cut off. Two years later, when I was the target of an abuse, I could not believe that I had worried about my ringlets, because no child ever thinks that is ever going to happen to them. When you are raised, as I was raised, in a family with love and support, you do not think somebody is going to betray you like

4969 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 30, 19 93 that. That happens every single day, every single hour, every single minute in this cou ntry of ours. So, Mr. Speaker, I am deeply disturbed. I have a pe rsonal sense of betrayal. I feel betrayed by this minister and by this government, not only as the memb.:�1r for River Heights, I feel betrayed as someon19 who went through what some of these children are going through, but to a much lesser degree than the vast majority of them. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Osbome (Mr. Alcock), that this House instruct the Minis:ter of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer) to resto1re full funding, including returning the accu mwlated surplus, to the Ch ild Protection Centre. * (1 350) Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) has mo ved a motion before the House . I regret to advise the honourable member for River Heights that pres4mtly before the House we had a mo tion that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re1wlve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

The honour able memb er for River Heigh ts has introduced another motion, not an amendment, so therefore the honour able memb er's motion is clearly out of order. Mr. Kevi n Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, with respect, I must challenge the ruling. Mr. Speal<er: The ruling of the Chair having been challenged, all those in favour of sustaining the Chair please say yea. Some Ho�r�ourable Members: Yea. Mr. Spea�•er : All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Spea�:er: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Lamoureux: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: A recorded vote hav ing been requested, call in the members. * (1 450) Order, please. The question before the House is, shall thEt ruling of the Chair be sustained?

A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Da cquay, De rkach, Do wney, Driedger, Duchar me, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gille:shammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, Manness, McAlpine , McCrae, Mci nto sh, Mitchelson, Orchard, Pallister, Penner, Praznik, Reimer, Render, Rose, Stefanson, Sveinson, Vodrey Nays Alcock, Ashton , Carstairs, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Edwards, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (l ntedak e), Friesen, Gaudry, Gray, Hick es, Lamoureux, Lathlin, Maloway, Martindale, Reid, Santos Mr. C:lerk (William Remnan t): Yeas 27, Nays 19 . Mr.

Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been sustained. *** Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I would like to rise on a matter of grievance. Mr. Sp eaker: Order, please. I bel ieve the memb9r for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) would like to mal(e a comm ittee change, a quick one, and then I will recognize the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gi lleshammer) on his grievance. Committee Change Mr. G4torge Hlckes (Point Douglas): I wish to rescind St. James (Mr. Edwards) for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) and change it to St. Johns (M s. Wasyljrcia-Leis) for Broadway (Mr.

Santos) for Economic Development for June 30, 4 p.m . Mr. Sp,eaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Hon. 1-ilarold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Serviens): It is very important for me to rise today to give some greater clarity to this issue, set the record straight regarding our funding relationship with the Child Protection Centre and, I think, in my remarkn give some comfort to the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) that the information I gave her in Estimates is accurate and correct, and that the issue raised about the funding two weeks ago is one that our department is working on.

June 30, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4970 But, Mr. Speaker, the Child Protection Centre is recognized by myself, this department, and this gove rnment as providing an extremely valuable service in the cont inuum of care of child welfare in Manitoba. As we discussed in Estimates, the number of organizations were going to experience a 3.8 percent reduction in the grant funding that they receive from gove rnment.

In the Estimates discussion, we talked about the fact that an accu mulated surplus that the centre had of $200,000 was going to be used as part of our funding agreement with the centre in this cu rrent budget year. That was a figure that was presented to us prior to the Estimates process and a figure that we used as an accu rate one in our deliberations over budget. Subsequent to that and in the last few weeks, it has been reported to us by the centre that part of that surplus of $200,000 in the last numb er of months of the last year had been spent on some other activities by the centre.

As a result, there is somewhat of a shortfall in that $200,000. It was first reported to us that it was in the neighbourho od of $30,00 0 . Now it is reported to be in the neighbourho od of $40,000 to 41 ,000. Mr. Speaker, my officials met on June 23 with officials from the Child Protection Centre to review what has happened with our funding, to review this surplus, and those discussions were very valuable.

It appe ars-and the Child Protection Centre has indicated that this was a mistake, and probably that is not an inaccu rate way of portraying this-that we were using information that was provided to us by the Chil d Protection Cen tre, and now they are indic ating that because of the time lapse this funding figure is not accurate. I make the commitment today to the House that my comments in Estimates were accurate.

They will have a funding reduction of 3.8 percent, and we will work to establish the exact amount of the dif ferential in that surplus and make the com mitment today that those resources will be found for the Child Protection Centre. I would hope that is the comfort that the member is looking for. It is the inf ormation we gave in Estimates, and I reaffirm that to day. The member made som e other commen ts.

I know members of this House are well aware of her commitment and her understanding of child welfare issues, and I know that she also is aware that other s of us in the House have a similar commitment and an understanding. A number of the initiatives that we have taken with the service information system, with the quality assurance prog ram, with the Child Advocate , with the high-risk indic ators, I think is a clear demon stration of the comm itment of this gove rnment to enhance the delivery of child welfare in this province. The memb er referenced that I met with Dr.

Ferguson last week, and that is correct, but it was over a completely different issue. It was an issue to do with the Anne Ross day care and the Mount Carmel Clinic. Our discussions on that were on another issue, and I am pleased to say that we are moving to resolve that issue. I have had a letter from Dr. Agnes Bishop who was asked to meet with me. I received that letter in the last few days, and we have made arrangements to meet with Dr. Bishop next week to discuss the funding for the Child Protection Centre. I will indicate to her the same information I have given to the House today.

Once we establish the exact amount of the shortfall in their ac cum ulated surplus, we will identify funds to make up that shortfall, and the centre will be able to conti nue with their budgeting based on the information that was given to them when our budget was released. So I say to the member that these discussions have taken place at the officials' level, and they are ongoing to establish an exact num ber. Our commitment is to remedy that problem as soon as we can, and we will be communic ating that to the Child Protection Centre as soon as we possibly can. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * * * Mr.

Speaker: The question before the House is on the motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Agreed? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No, okay. All those in favou r of the motion, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay.

4971 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 30, 19 93 Somtt Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr . �Cevln Lamoureux (Second Opposition Hous,e Leader): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. * (1 500) Mr. Sipeaker: A recorded vote hav ing been reque:sted, call in the members. * (1 600) The question before the House is on the mo tion of the honourable gove rnment House leader, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolv�� into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be g1ranted to Her Majesty.

A STA.NDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows:: Yeas Ashton, Barrett, Cerilli, Dacquay, Dewar, Doer, Dow ney, Duc harme, Enns, Evans (I nterlake), Evans (Brandon East), Filmon, Findlay, Friesen, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Hickes, Lathl in, Laurendeau, Maloway, Manness, Martindale, McAlpine, McCrae, Mcin to sh, Mitchelson, Orchard, Penner, Praznik, Reid, Reimer, Render, Rose, Santos, St efanso n, Sveinson , Vo drey, Wa.sylycia-Leis. Nays Alcock, Carstairs, Gaudry, Gray, Lamoureux. Mr. Cl erk (William Remnant): Yeas 38, Nays 5. Mr. Speaker: The motion is accor dingly carried.

The hour being after 4 p.m., this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 1 :30 p.m. Monday next.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, June 30, 19 93 CONTENTS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Human Resources Opportunity Centre Plohman; Vodrey 4959 Reading and Receiving Petitions Nonpolitical Statement Solvent Abuse Treatment Centre for Northern Manitoba Dr. D.W. Penner Award Ashton 4950 Render 4960 Tabling of Reports ORDERS OF THE DAY Estimates: Culture, Heritage and Report Stage Citizenship; Status of Women; Commu nity Support Programs Bill4, Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping Mitchelson 4950 (Temporary Amendments) Act 4961 Estimates: Government Services Bill5, Northern Affa irs Amendment Act 4961 Ducharme 4950 Bill 6, Real Property Amendment Act 4961

Schedule of Amounts Paid to MLAs Bill?, Builders' Liens Amendment Act 4961 Manness 4960 Bill 8, Insurance Amendment Act 4961 Presenting Reports by Bill11, Regional Waste Management Standing and Special Committees Authorities, Municipal Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act 4961 Privileges and Elections, 2nd Report Bill12, In ternational Trusts Act 4961 Helwer 4950 Bill13 , Manitoba Em ployee Ownership Oral Questions Fund Corpora tion Amendment Act 4962 Assiniboine River Diversion Bill 38, City of Winnipeg Amendment, Doer; Downey 4951 Municipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and

Summary Convictions Home Care Program Amendment Act 4963 Chomiak; Orchard 4953 Child Protection Centre Third Readings-Am ended Bills Edwards; Gilleshammer 4954 Bill 38, City of Winnipeg Amendment, Home Care Program Municipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and

Summary Convictions Wasylycia- Leis; Orchard; 4955 Amendment Act 4963 Free Trade Agreement Royal Assent Wowc huk; Findlay 4956 Assiniboine River Diversion Bill 38, City of Winnipeg Amendment, Edwards; Cummin gs 4958 Municipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and

Summary Convictions Vehicle In spections Amendment Act 4964 Reid; Driedger 4958 Matters of Grievance Bill36 Reid; Driedger 4959 Funding for Child Protection Centre Carstairs 4964 Vehicle Inspections Speaker's Ruling 4969 Reid; Cummin gs 4959 Gilleshammer 4969