PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number22 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MARCH 10, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

r .. .,..._·~ ·~~-6!\~ ~ . ' - Narch lOth. 1970 Tape 278 PK.,; l The House Het at 3;00 P.H. Hr. Speaker in the Chai:. HON. J .~·1!\I.LHOOD: (PREHIER} : Mr. Speaker, I am sure I speak for all han. members of the House when I extend a word of cordial welcome to some thirteen students in Business Administration in the College of Trades and Technology, who are here today as visitors with their instructar, ~ :r. Cyril Power.

The College of Trades and Technology .gives training and instruction in a considerable number of fields and some hon. members may be just a little surprized to learn that one of these is Business Administration. By this is not to be understood that the College is a Business College. It is what it says, a College of Trades and Technology. But, it does include a number of courses of instruction, that would not be called either trade or technological, but more in the nature of business and business administration.

I hope that these thirteen students who are visiting us today will find the proceedings interesting, I do not know if it is their first visit to this House, I hope it will not be their last. I hope that they will understand the procedures in the House, which are quite different from the procedures in most bodies, although quite similar of course to the proceedings in all bodies in the British Commonwealth under the British Parl~amentary System.

We have our own way of conducting business and this '~ay has taken hundreds of years to develop, so that today it is rather unique, and rather different from the procedures found in deliberative bodies outside the British Commonwealth.

I hope they will enjoy it, and I know that the Leader of the Opposition is itching to get up on his feet and agree '~ith me, as he al,~ays does, practically every day in this House, although the public are lead to believe that he and I are at each others throats all the time, tearing each other do'~ and scratching and clawing at each other, the truth of the matter is that every day here practically we get up like lambs, in perfect unison, in perfect harmony and join together as one person, you might say, two hearts in the one body, or ~o bodies carrying one heart.

Anyhow, we are similar in our views, we are happy to welcome these students. I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition, will say the same thing. MR. ANTHONY J. HURPHY: I am happy, Mr. Speaker, to joint with the hon. the Premier in welcoming these students, and I am sure they picked a wonderful day 'dth to come, what we are going to do/$61 million this afternoon will frighten them FJt>r:- all to death, I am sure. But I think it 'dll be their .\ taste of big business to /.<!5~2

'"'""_,,,~. - ... - ~ .- - ------ ------'-----· --·-· -- - - ~- --·-· -.. :__ ~~rch lOth. 1970 Tape 278 PK- 2 hear about this $61 million, and what the members on this side of the House particularly think of this $61 million. But I tdll join very happily with the Premier, and I am sure everybody in the House.· is pleas'ed to see the s·..,. gentlerurn here today with their teacher Hr. Cyril Power, and I will just ask them now to sit back and fasten their seat belts, and away we go. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. JOHN MAHONEY: Hr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from some 312 residents and land owners of the community of Paradise in my district. The prayer of the petition is, Sir, that the Government take steps this year to up grade and pave the main road through that place, which measures approximately 1.6 miles. Mr. Speaker, the community of Paradise is on the outskirts of St. John's and is very heavily populated, and~the road through that community which is in poor condition carries a very heavy traffic load.

As member for the district, I urge upon the Government the necessity of answering the prayer of this petition this year, and I give it my whole hearted support. I ask that this petition be received by the House, and referred to the department to which it relates. I!R. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the Department to which it relates. l1R. PHILIP LEHIS: I wauld like to associate myself with my hon. colleague in supporting this petition.

It has been the subject matter of rather detailed discussion over recent months with the committee and the public of the settlement of Paradise, they had several meetings about it, and we had some consultations with the Department of Highways in relation to it, and they should be given some encouragement. Paradise is an area that has developed very rapidly within the last ten years, it is closely associated with the industrial complex that has been established in the Topsail Road section, and there has been quite an influx of • outside people into. the settlement.

But in commonr, with that petition, and the prayer to up grade Paradise Road is the road to the join~ng settlements the P.orse Cove Line, which serves the area of Paradise and the Topsail ~~ad section•on the western end, and also the settlement of St. Thomas's. This road also, needs very special consideration and it is only a matter of finding the wear with all and due time to do it. I have very much pleasure in supporting I ~ j ,) .. .. .. - -~~~-~- ~ ---

;.• !·larch lOth. 1970 Tape 278 PK - 3 the prayer of this petition. MR. JOHN C. CROSBIE: I would like to rise and support the prayer of- this petition. The - road to hell is sometime~ said to be paved with good intentions , and I feel that the road to Paradise should be paved, or through Paradise, and not with good intentions, with asphalt or tarmac I certainly support this petition, }!r. Speaker, the road needs to be paved, Paradise needs some attention. Paradise here in Newfoundland is not perfect, as Paradise is suppose to be elsewhere.

And I v10uld certainly like . to support the o~o hen. members for that district in their petition. I hope the Government acts on it, not only with good intentions, but with a good solid asphalt. }!R. MURPHY: Hr. Speaker I received a copy of the petition and I too would like to heartily endorse it.

It is rather significant __ the prayer of the petition says, to ask the Government to stand by inferences made on the occasion of one Federal and two Provincial Election, I do not get the significance -.rzyself,,b.ut it is in the petition, and I would heartily endorse the petition as presented by the hen. members for Harbour Main, and by the hon. member for St.

John 1 s West, I believe 1.6 miles, I mean it is not another Trans-Canada Highway or anything, it is a very heavily populated area, as can be seen by 300 odd petitions, I think that is more than we get on ninety-five per-cent of the petitions from the rest of the ~rovince. It is a growing area, a farming area, and I feel that this bit of road should not stretch our budget too much, if we ever see that budget. 1-!R. SPEAKER: It j ,), moved and seconded that this petition be received and adopted and referred to the Department to which it relates. }!R. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, may I have leavefSi~ to present a petition signed by approxi~4tely 250 to 300 citizen resident in the community of St. Lunaire, and Cricket in lfuite !lay No~th, Sir. These people signed this petition Sir a-nd 'I think include every eligible voter, .. every citizen of age in these two towns which have one joint Government, the Community Council of the area. The prayer of the petition Sir is that the Government act to install running lvater into these communities and that this project be given prompt attention v1hen the departmental estimates are approved. Mr.

Speaker I have a great deal of pleasure in moving that this petition be received and be referred to the department to which it relates. There is a ereat need for this service, I would not in anyway wQL~t to detract deH-&e-t· from the needs of the earthly I :2. .f!.j .-' - . - " . ~ ~---- --

}~rch lOth. 1970 Tape 278 PK - 4 Paradise, about Yhich we have just heard. But I would submit, Sir, that the need for water is even greater than the need for pavement, as much as the need for pavement w2ybe. To that Sir, I should add , only that on Friday Evening passed, the Premier and I in St. Lunaire met with the Community Council who organized this petition and had a most useful, and the most fruitful discussion, and we do hope and plan that some steps can be taken to alle Vtate the conditions in that community. I move that this petition be received, Sir, and referred to the department to which it relates.

HR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to .the department to •:hich it relates. HR. H. COLLINS: Xr. Speaker, I ~muld like to rise on behalf of the members on this side of the House to support the petition just presented by the Hinister and member for Hhite Bay North. It seems to me that it is not quite cricket to deny running water to Cricket, and I am hopeful that the minister's plea will be taken into account, and acted upon. And when they finally do get running water, that they will have the privile ge of naming their member,"Chief Running Hater". HR.

SPEAKER: It 15 moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the. ~epartment to which it relates. ANSWEP~ TO QUESTIONS HR. SMALLHOOD: ~ir. Speaker, in reply to Question No. 175 on the Order Paper of Harch 6th. in the name of the han. the member for St. Barbe South. I have to reply as follows, there ~' ere fifteen applica.t:.ions for the position of senior engineer, and general manager of the new 1~ater authority, and no appointment has yet been made. The position of sanitary engineers, sixteen applications ~1ere recei•red and Mr. H. T. Doane was appointed on January 1st.

The office of accountant, the office manager, fifty-two applications were received no appointment has been made. The position of shorthand-typist,Grade IV, sixteen applications were received, Hrs. S. Ring, appointed February 1st. The position of shorthand-typist, Grade II, eighteen applications ~·1ere received, no appointment has been made. And for the position of field inspector, two. ·positions, 109 applications have been received and no appointment has been made.

(2) The Lee lvolfe Productions of Toronto, Ontario. And that in . 1

-~. --- ----- -- March lOth. 1970 Tape 278 PK - 5 1969 the payments made were for film production $29,000.00; for purchase of prints $22,000.00; and for conversion of the films to the Gercan language, and purchase of coloured prints for distribution throughout Europe $1100, total $52,100.00. Question No. 208 on today's Order Paper in the name of the hen. the Leader of the Opposition.

(1) It was on Wednesday night of the 11th. of the month, when the Counsel General called on me and gave me the information. MR. }1URPHY: The 11th? MR. SllALLHOOD: The night of February 11th. or was it March 11th? Yes, February the 11th. And it was on Friday 13th. a very notable day, that the news was offically given by the American Authorities. Two nights, on the ni ght of the 11th. and on the day of Friday 13th. are the two dates. To me the .-' I 1 ,, - ------·----

J\~ • · March 10, 1970 Tape 11279 Page 1 MR. S~!ALWOOD: The sad news was given by the Consul General of the United States on the night of Hednesday 11, and on Friday the 13tb.. It was given by, publicly by the Commanding Officer at Argentia. Question· No. (215) on today's Order Paper, in the narBe of the hon. the member for Bonavista North. The first part of this question (and I am answering today for the hon. the Minister of Public Works who is absent) .the first part should be directed to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, as it comes under him. The answer to the second

part is; one panelled van - $3,213.42. The answer to the third

part is; ten in number. The answer to the fourth part; if it refers to all land required for all branches of the Government for the whole Government service of this Province; the answer is$557,309.91. But that was for all departmencs of Government. Question No. (220) in the name of the hon. member for St. John's West - I am able to answer in part today. In answer to the first part; the amount is $2,800,000. The answer to the second

part is; yes. The answer to the third

part is; in part, yes, and in part, I am not able to give the information today, but I will later. The additional amount is what I am not able to name today, but there is an additioual amount. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Part one of the question; what are the terms governing such loans, and what security is held? That was the first part of the question. MR. SMALUIOOD: The security of course is a mortgage on all the property. The terms I do not recall, I will have to get that and table it. Question No. (225) on today's Order Paper in the name of the han. member for St. John's.

The answer is the resignation t~as not in writing but was oral, and he retired from the Committ!!e by friendly and mutual •'Msent. With regard to the second part; any ~orrespondence between Mr. Russell and me is privileged. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, in answer to Question No. (16) on Monday, February 23, Order Paper of Monday, February 23, asked by the hon. member for St. John's Center. In answer to the first part of the Question: $59,031.50. In answer to the second part of the first question: $111,390.00, making a total of $170,421.50.

In answer to the second part of the question; the first part of the second question; $85,696.30. In answer to the second part of the second question; $25,000. In answer to the third

part 1:2 ·s7

.. Jl~ March 10, 19 70 Tape fl279 Page 2 of the question; $5,737.88. In answer to the fourth part of the question; $18,331.62. In answer to the fifth part of the question; $1,412.71. In answer to ,the sixth part of the question; $11,488.50. In answer to the seventh part of the question; $21,830.37. Part (3) of the question; thirty. Part (4) of the question; ninety-three percent. I MR. HICKMA..?-1: tnll the hon. the Minister permit a supplementary question? How many apartments are for rent in Elizabeth Towers? MR. DAWE: I think this could be answered in another question I am going to answer now Mr. Speaker.

In answer to Question No. (92) on Thursday's Order Paper, February 26. In answer to the fourth part of the question - Total cost, $5,395,000. In answer to the second part of the first question; Construction cost of the building and the fixtures; $5,302,000. Furniture equipment and furnishings; S93,000. In answer to the second part of the question; Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce; ten years; $2,500,000. Toronto Dominion Bank; five years; $1,500,000. St. John's Housing Corporation; $1,195,000. Average annum interest rate; eight percent. In answer_to question No. (93) - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, if the hon.

Minister will permit a supplementary question? You did not say whether these loans "ere guaranteed by the Government, but I take it they are, are they? MR. DAHE: Yes Mr. Speaker, they are all guaranteed by the Province of Newfoundland. In answer to No. (93) on Thursday's Order Paper, February 26, asked by the hon. member for St. John's \oiest. In answer to the first part of the question: Apartment units - 102, Hotel-type bedroom units: four. Making a total of 106. In answer to the second part of the question - I think there is a little further answer to the first part of the question there Mr. Speaker.

One bedroom unit; fourteen. ~~o bedroom unit; eighty- eight. Hotel-type bedroom unit; four I 1

March 10, 1970 Tape 1'280 Page 1 HR. DAI.'E: In answer to the second part of the question; Apartment units rented, thirty-two. One bedroom type; ten. Two bedroom type; twenty­ two. In answer to the third part of the question; Loss, $133,750. In answer to the third part of che question; Income - apartment rental; $253,000. Commercial rentals; $202,000. Others; $3,000 -making a total of $458,000. Expenses; Interest Bank demand loans, $341,250. Depreciation; $100,000. Taxes, heat, light and water; $68,600. Insurance; $2,400. Repairs · .all.d._.Uai.ntE!uance; $15 ,100. Interest advance, St.

John's Housing Corporation; $38,900. Other; $25,500. Making a total of $591,750. It should be noted that both the amounts for depreciation and interest paid to the St. John's Housing Corporation, are internal book entries and do not constitute any cash outlay. These deficits will be absorbed as the bank loans are reduced. MR. HICIQ!AN: Hould the hon. minister permit a supplementary question? In connection \.,ri th the answer on the Repairs and Maintenance for this new building.

Has the hon. minister been in receipt of complaint of the construction of that building and the apartments, and the windows and leaks and that sort of thing? MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, they have not come to my knowledge in any way, of these discrepancies in the building. MR. JOHN NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answers to Question (174) asked by the hon. member for St. Barbe South on the Order Paper dated March 6, 1970.

I do not think it would be the wish of the House that I would go into reading all, therefore in spite of the enthusiasm of my good friend, the hon. member for Burin - with your permission I would like to table the information as outlined in the documents that I now set forth. RON. E. M. ROBERTS 0-1inister of Health): }1r. Speaker, today's Order Paper has a nugget in the form of question (219) asked by the hon. gentleman for St. John's West.

The answers Sir, are as follows: The total number of active treatment beds which can be made available in the physical facilities at the Doctor Charles Janeway Health Center here in St. John's, are 280. Of this number at present only 225 are in use. The second part of the question Sir; the reason that these beds are not open is that the

March 10, 1970 Tape 11280 Page 2 Government have been ~with the approval of the House ; pursuing a policy common to governments across Canada in trying to control costs of one area where we are anxious to continue to exercise controls ~is in the question of hospital insurance, the programs which pay for these beds, and that is the reason why these beds are not open. I may add that the Board of this hospital as well the boards of other hospitals have been co-operating fully.

The third part of the hon. gentleman's question Sir, 1 am informed by the administrator of the hospital, as the House will realize the Government do not directly operate the Janeway Child Health Center. It is ope~ated in our behalf by a board whose chairman is the hon. Campbell Macpherson. The administrator has given me the information to ans1•er the remaining parts of the question, and on that basis I will gladl~r conv~y that information.

The hon. gentleman asked if there was a Gastro­ Enterology Service, an Allergy Service, a Cardiology Service, a Neurology Service, A Haematology Service, an Endocrine Service or a Dermatology Service? All of these Services Mr. Speaker, are available at the hospital, none of them :bY decision of the board of the hospital. , are organized all a sub-department. I should say Hr. Speaker, none is organized as a sub­ department, but all of those services are available.

The hon. gentleman asked further with reference to surgical services, a Urology Service, a Neuro-Surgical Service, a Plastic Surgery Service or a Cardio-Thoracic Surgical Service. The hon. gentleman who wrote the question for the hon. member for St. John's West should have briefed me on pronounciations. The hon. gentleman is Hell informed. The answer again Sir '"ith some pride, I am able to say that each of these Services is available, each of these Services again Sir, is not organized as a sub-department, that is by decision of the board.

The fifth part of the hon. gentleman's question asked about "'X-Ray Services at the Janeway - it was asked what IJas the waiting period. The administrator tells me that emergency and urgent X-Rays are done immediately. Elective X-Rays are done by appointment, there being an average of two days between the request for appointment and the time the X-Ray is taken. Emergency X-Rays are reported on verbally immediately. Others are usually reported within twenty-four hours. That I can add only

~ "..:";'·.JI....."'· --~~---- . . . . JW ~arch 10, 1970 Tape #280 Page 3 Sir that on the basis of what I knm., we have a splendid province-wide facility at the Janeway, which serves the children of all Newfoundland as a referral center and I would be less than fair in my duty if I did not say that we in the Government think it is a simply splendid service, and we tftink it is a model to which we hope we can improve our other hospitals in due course. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, in connect:!:on with the hon. minister's answer to Part (2) of the question where it says Government is trying to control cost~,' does the hon. minister mean that sufficient funds were not provided the Janeway Child Health Center to operate all 280 beds? That is in essence what he means, is it? HR. ROBERTS: No Sir, we do not tell the hospitals how many beds they may or may not operate. We do make available amounts of money. 1-lith the amounts of money, they do the best they can.

The Janeway board like any other hospital board in this Province Sir, would like and no doubt could use more money than the Government have been able to make available to them. In that sense I think the hon. gentleman's question is both correct and incorrect. We neither open nor close beds. He give boards funds with which they operate as best they can.

The Janeway is an autonomous organization,Sir, and does not ans~•er to me in detail, although it is paid for out of public funds, it answers only in the general supervisory way, the same for example as Western Hemorial Hospital at Corner Brook, or the Charles Curtis Hospital in St. Anthony. And by the way, the hon; gentleman for Humber West is presen~, he may like to know - I am sorry Humber East. The hen. gentleman for Humber t•est is also present, his attendance record is better than the hon: gentleman for Humber East. The hon. gentleman from Humber East might like to know that on the ~•eek-end past I saw Dr.

Thomas of the I.G.A. briefly and he told me that never in his experience ( he has only been at St. Anthony twenty-four years Sir) have any cases been referred. He could not remember any that had been referred to \~estern Memorial hospital in Corner Brook. MR. ROWE (W.N.): Mr. Speaker, in answer to Question (212) of today's Order Paper, asked by the hon. member for the district for Bonavista North. jJ{/ . f

JW • March 10, 1970 Tape #280 Page 4 The question reads: Part (1) have specific Research Studies been conducted by the Research Center Department of Ener~y Mines and Resources, Ottawa, having special emphasis with respect to the (:reat Horthern .~ninsula Newfoundland? Nr. Speaker, I can only suggest to the hon. member that he direct his question to that Federal department which is concerned with such things. The second part of the question. Has a copy of any such a report been forwarded to .the Provincial Government? I can only say that I do not know if a copy of any such report has been forwarded.

Certainly no such copy of any such report has been received by the department for which I am responsible. Question (214) on today's Order Paper, asked by the same hon. member. And the first part. vfuat criteria are in use by the Department of Regional Economic Expansion to select designated areas for the Province of Newfoundland? Mr. Speaker, on that question, I can only assume the hon. member refers to designated areas under the Regional Development Incent:i ,ves Act, and again Sir I would not presume to ennunciate in this House, Federal Government policy respecting anybne of their Acts.

The second part of the question; had there been consultations with the Government of Newfoundland regarding the selection of these designated areas? The answer to that is yes. And if so, has the Province concurred with the areas designated? In answer to that Hr. Speaker, I can simply say that our concurrence is not required in any way, shape or form under that Act. The third part of the question, has the department of Community and Social Development suggested to the Regional Economic and Expansion Department, which settlements in Nelv- foundland should be abandoned and these residents move to larger communities.

The answer to that question Sir, is an emphatic "No". MR.· CROSBIE-: _?:he.J!.on·: minister says · that .the•fconcurrence is not: required but has in fact hi ~ department or the Government concurred with these designated areas? He says concurrence is not required, but have you in fact concurred or made representations about these areas? MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, on that I have to say in answer to a supplementary question that the same answer I gave a day or two ago to a similar type .q·:· 1 ro:-71 of question respecting DREE and the operations of DREE,~ 1iamely, that when

• March 10, 1970 Tape #280 Page 5 the DREE agreement is signed, sealed and delivered, I will be bringing it before this House on behalf of the Government of Newfoundland-and Labrador, 'and at that time I will be explaining all aspects of the agreement, and all associated aspects. And I will be happy to answer any questions at that time. RON. W. R. CALLAHAN (Minister of }lines, Agriculture & Resources): Mr. Speaker, the answer to Question (132) on the Order Paper of March 3, in the name of the bon. member for St. John's West.

I have to say and I think the hon. gentleman will agree that this information being a matter of public record in the Statutes .of the Province or in the Registry of the Crown Lands or in the Registry of Deeds and Companies is equally available to him as to me, and I think not a proper questionto be on the Order Paper. And I think that applies Sir in respect of

Section 1 and

Section 3. In connection with

Section 3, I might add that it is I think practically impossible to answer , the second part of the question Mr. Speaker, because the people with whom the Government deal, may be anyone from the principle or the principle officers down to any officials of any Company at any particular time. The only answer I think that could be given is that the Government deal broadly with the appropriate officials of any Company, depending upon the nature of the particular contact. In respect of the second part Mr. Speaker, I have no knowledge of that situation about which the question was asked.

Question (133) on the Order Paper of the same day. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary question of the hon. the minister, in connection with his anstJer that this information is on the public registry. Is the han. minister aware that there is at least with respect to minerals anyway that there are closed registries in his department and that this information is therefore not available to all members of the public? MR. ROI~ (W. N.): They are not closed registries Mr. Speaker. There is c-. • t

• March 10, 1970, Tape 281, Page 1 -- apb HO!!. !·l.J. CALLAHA.'l (Minister of Hines, Agricultur e and Res ource s) : They are not closed registries ; }lr. Speaker. There is a working registry in the Department of Hines, Agriculture and Resources which was set up for the purpose of the use internally of the department.

There are also Sir, registries of Crown Lands, registries of Deeds and Companies, and various other depositories of information in which the information for which the hon. gentleman asks is available, and I think under the rules Sir, that it is not proper to ask a question in respect to information that is available already, equally available to hon. members as to me. MR. CROSBIE: There is no such rule, it is not equally available MR. HICK.'1.<\N: Will the hen. Y~nister advise when the closed

section to the registry of Mines were reopened. HR. CALLAHAN: I say again Mr. Speaker, there is a registry in the department which is an internal registry in the normal manner of the internal fil i ng systems for the operation of the department, and it is not a registry in the normal sense, ·. · I have answered the question MR. CROSBIE: It is a secret registry closed to the public UR. C,,\LLAHAJ.'I: It is not a secret registry Hr. Speaker UR, HICKH!u.'l: There is no secret registry closed to the public? MR.

CALLAHAN: The registry is an internal registry for the use of the department, and is so regarded in the department and is not a secret registry by any manner or means. On the same Order Paper Hr. Speaker, Harch 3rd., question 133, the answer I am afraid has to be similar to the answer to question number 132. The information is available in the normal way in statutes, in the registry of Deeds and Companies, and in the registry of Crown Lands, and is equall y available to the hen. gentlemen as to me.

The same answer must apply to part three of that question; the information is available in the first instance in the registry of Deeds and Companies, and in the second instance the Government deals with officials and executive officers of companies over a broad range,in a particular instance,appropriate to the particular matter with which the Government may be dealing at any time. In respect to the second part Ur. Speaker, I have no knowledge of that situation. HR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, this is a supplementary question, is it the fact that the Minister and his department when mining promoters or other promoters ask \ \••'\ similar types of questions to this, , tell them to look it up in the pu!>lic registries or other.registries of this Province?

March 10, 1970, Tape 281, Page 2 -- apb }ffi. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, question 156 MR. CROSBIE: The minister wishes not to answer a supplementary question? Contempt of the House these answers. MR. SPE.UCER: Order please, the answer to a question -~ not to be subject to comment even if the comment is disguised as a supplementary question. Will the hon, minister continue. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Speaker, before I do may I ask your ruling Sir, as to whether it is proper to place on the Order Paper questions which are available to hon. members in various matters, the answers to which are available to hon. members in various places including the statutes. }ffi. SPEAKER: The rule of the House states that an hon. member should not seek information which is as readily available to one member as another. MR. CROSBIE: Your ruling J on that point Mr. Speaker, I think you said; ~eadily available: ' You did not just say ' ~vailable' did you? ·Readily available'.' This is not readily available. MR.

CALLAHAl'l: That is ·.what I said Hr. Speaker MR. CROSBIE: It is not readily available }ffi. CALL .~: The Order Paper of Thursday, ~~rch 5th., question number 156 in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West. The answer to the first part, in the first instance is yes, in the second instance question 156, of the Order Paper of Thursday l1arch 5. In the first instance the ans~1er to the question is yes, and in the second instance the answer to the question is 3,646 square feet, the answer in the third instance is nil.

The second part of the question in the first instance yes, in the second instance, egg graders and washers, wire baskets, plastic trays, refrigerated space. In the third instance nil, the policy is MR. CROSBIE: Excuse me, what are you referring to there Mr. Minister? The refrigeration facilities is it1 MR. CALLAHAN: .~ I will read the question Mr. Speaker. In the second line, towards the end of the second line. Does Provincial Poultry Cooperative Limited have the use of any equipment or refrigeration facilities or any other fac~lities.

If so outline the equipment, size and nature and thirdly the amount charged each year. and the answer is in the first instance, yes there is equipment. The equipment is egg graders and washers, wire baskets, plastic trays, refrigerated space, and in the third instance is nil, because, the policy in respect of farm products cooperation facilities for the use of farmers is that they are charged a nominal rate under lease for the use · of such facilities. I might say Sir, that

..2 ? ; March 10, 1970, Tape~ Page 3 -- apb the facilities being cooperative are open and available to all farmers anywhere in this Province who may wish to join. In respect of the third part, the answer is no, in respect to whether the Government pay accounts, but that would not be a complete answer. The answer is that amounts are paid through Farm Products Cooperation which is a Crown Corporation and have been paid in the year just past in respect of Provincial Poultry Co-op. $1,618., and I should add Sir, for the sake of completeness and accuracy Eastern Farmers Co-op. $2,059., I am sorry, I will go back Hr.

Speaker to the first one. Provincial Poultry Co-op. in resepct of electricity, heat, and water, maintenance and garbage collection $1,618. Eastern Farmers Co-op. for electricity, steam and water, maintenance, garbage collection and ~anagers salary for two months $2,059. l~ ow I should explain Hr. Speaker, that Eastern Farmers Co-op. has recently in the season just passed moved into the new vegetable grading facility at Pleasantville. TI1e policy is to assist co-ops. generally over a tvm year period to get going by absorbing the overhead costs and giving them some help, some starter help with managements services.

This is what has occured in the case of Eastern Farmers. Central Farm Producers Co-op. Bishops Falls, supplies and manages salary for the period of six months, June to December 1969, electricity up to and including 31st. December 1969, total $5,268. Slaughter house at Doyles which is operated by the Agricultural Society, cost of renovations, license fee, caretakers salary from August to Deceu1ber 1969, total $3,743.

Slaughter house at Robinsons, for supplies, license fee, electricity, , caretakers salary from August to uecember 1969 total $1,532., and slaughter house at Comfort Cove, supplies and caretakers salary from October to December 1969, total $1,714. Just to complete the explanation Hr.

Speaker, the practice, the operating practice is that Farm Products Cooperation which is a Crolvn Corporation of this Government directly build and operate various agricultural facilities or at least build and assist into operation various agricultural facilities ranging from simple slaughter houses to quite complex vegetable processing facilities and egg grading and washing and packing facilities, which are leased in each case on a nominal basis to bona fide agricultural societies or agricultural cooperatives.

As I explained earlier the practice is for about the first couple of years to assist co-ops in the matter of overhead and in the matter of management to in3ure that having spent a large amount of money on these things ''e will not see t;1em fail for the want of some rather limited and modest assistance in the first year or two of tl1eir existance.

March 10, 1970, Tape 281, Page 4 -- apb Carrying.on to part four of question 156, the answer in the first instance Hr. Speaker, is yes, and in the second $20,700. Question 173, on the Order Paper of Friday March 6th., Hr. Speaker, this is a case again of a private company and'I think it is not usual or appropriate to say who the members are. Their membership list is their own list, as is the membership list of any cooperative, and I suggest the question should more properly be directed to the cooperative if the hon. gentleman wishes the answer. I think the }ffi.

CROSBIE: It is using public facilities is it not? }ffi. CALLAHh'i: It is using public facilities Hr. Speaker, yes, but on the contract basis the question asks the members of the c9op., and I can think of "cooperatives, I know of one in this Province which has I think over 3;000 members and I would not like to MR. CROSBIE: This one does not though, does it? MR. CALLAH&~: No it does not, but the principle is the same Mr.

Speaker, and I would not wish to burden ei.ther the staff of the department or this house with the obligation in future in a question of precedent by having them bring in 3,000 names of a private companies shareholders. The same applies in the first instance to~the names of the shareholders are available Mr. Speaker in the registry of c~ops., which is open to the han. gentleman, and the names of the members are on the share ••••••••••• j;(( 7

~arch 10 1970. Tape 282 page 1. the members are on the share list of the Co-Op >1hich I would think would be available.

(2) The same applies in the first instance.

(3) None, we do not ~arket for any co-op or any other organization. HR,HICKXAN: Would the han. minister permit a supplementary question? 1-'ith reference to Newfoundland Poultry Producers Ltd. a corporate entity is that a licensed co-op.under the co-operatives Act. Question No. 200: a~ked by the han. member for St. John's East Extern. The heading I might say referred to is not correct Mr. Speaker, the Question says 811-06 and I take it theihon. gentleman was referring to 811-03-06. The answer is as follows: Wages including Canada Pension & Unemployment In~u~ance $12, 885.

(1) Food and other supplies $3,029.

(2) Fuels gasoline oil and propane $836.

(3) Repairs to generator and rental of generator for one month $478.

(4) Repairs alterations and additions to buildings $626.

(5) Construction of dock facility for boats and aircraft $339.

(6) Radio telephone service $220.

(7) Laundry service $50.

(8) Staff travelling and transportation of goods $148. Total $18,611.00. Question No. 228 asked by the hon. member for St. John's Hest. Yes the Government has commenced renovations at Exon House which is to be t~e Home and Training Centre for severely ~!entally Retarded and Physically Handicapped Children. The completion date is not definit:;ely knmm at the moment the estimated cost of renovations is in the vicinity of $320,000. The newly expanded facilities will accommodate 120 children some of •~hica will come from the Children's Home at Water Street West.

But the larger majority will come from homes right across Newfoundland.and Labrador. The estimated cost of operating and maintaining the home will be given in the budget- the estimates. ~m.CDLLINS: Mr. Speaker could the minister advise the House as to the list he can envisage from different places across Newfoundland! ~fR.NEARY: I do not have the information with me at the moment Mr. Speaker, but judging by the number of enquiries that pass over my desk every day I would say that this is a badly needed facility in the Province.

MR.EARLE: Nr. }!inister what is the estimated number of staff for that institution? . . . . .... -·-- --- -

. ,. iape 28£ page ·· · HR.NEARY: Mr. Speaket, I do not have that information ~~ith me but I would be glad to get it for the hen. member. MR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker if I could rephrase my question, is the hen. minister satisfied that by accommodating 120 people that this will take care of the number. MR.NEARE: The answer to that Mr. Speaker would have to be of course no~ but we will have to deal with the problem to do ~Jhat we can. MR.CRCSBIE: Hr. Speaker, could I ask the hon minister of Justice a question.

Last evening the hon. minister tabled certain agreements in connection with the ~!elville Project(a::d the Clerk's Office are unable to make copies)could the hon. minister arraugE to have copies made on the zerox machines in his office so that some of us can have a look at these agreements, make some copies available. ~m.CURTIS: I think Mr. Speaker, that can be arranged. ORDERS OF THE DAY: HR.SPEA_l(ER: ~otion 3, that the rules of the House be suspended on the motion for Interim Supply now on the Order Paper and on the Supply Bill introduced pursuant thereto. Is the House ready for the question? MR.CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, if no one is speaking on the other side I would like to have a few words to say on this. This is a motion Mr. Speaker that members of this House vote to suspend the rules of the !louse today on the motion for interim supply and on the supply Bill that was inttoduced yesterday. In other words Mr.

Speaker this is a motion that the rules contained in our Standing Orders be suspended today }~rch lO,that t~ey be suspended so that this Supply Bill calling for an expenditure of $61 million and some odd thousand j~terim supply for next year can go through this House today without following the usual procedure~ the usual procedure being Mr. Speaker, that it takes three days for > a Bill properly to go through this House, first reading, second reading and then thl:d reading.

Rather than having these three days for this important matter and a day for the resolution stage of the Bill which t~e had yesterday and that the Standing Orders be put aside; Standing Order 58 says, every Bill shall receive three several readings an. different days previously to bein~ passed • On urgent or extraordinary occasions, a Bill may"Jby leave of the House.,be read twice or thrice, or advanced two or more stages in one day. Mr. Speaker this ~~ill not happen by consent of the House because hen. members on this side of the House will not consent. Now Hr.

Speaker this is a motion that is repugnent to the operation of a

-··------- -·· ···-- - --·- Harch 10 1970. Tape 282 page 3. soundly functioning democratic legislative assembly. /Jld we have had too many such motions as this in this House. This is not }!arch 31 :·!r. Speaker, if this Here' Harch 3ht., and the position was that on April 1, the Government would have no money to pay the Bills, to pay its current Bills, but on the following day there 1-1ould be no salaries to be able to be paid civil servants and others, the Police Force and others. If that Here the occasion then one could well see how this motion could be justified and in fact Mr.

Speaker, it .has been used in other House on occasions like that. But in this House today we have a:situation where there are 21 days to go}lr. Speaker,in March that there is no need for interim supply to be rushed through this House today because we have the next ~-1enty-one days to do it after proper consideration of everything that is contained in the inter~~ supply Bill. ' There is no valid reason .. ~!r. Speaker, why the rules of this House that are supposed to protect the rights of the minorities in this House, that is 1-1hat the rules are designed to pro teet ,Hr.

Speaker, ckba te in this !louse the rights of minorities in this House to ;nake their vietvs knmm the right of minorities in the House to properly be able to consider t.;hat goes through the House. that is tlhJ! these rd .. c:s 1-1ere adopted Hr. Sfceaker, Yet the Government proposes that these rules be thro~m out, t.rhy ( because the Hon. the Premier and fcur members opposite are going to leave St. John's tomorrm.; to go to Europe on certain business, Hr. Speaker this House can continue its session, can continue meeting even if these han. gentlem~n r,o, or at least in our opinion they can.

The hon. the Deputy Premier and all the other hen. members of the Cabinet will be here. The Government will still' ):lave at least 25 votes compared to the 10 in the Opposition side of the !louse. h'hy can this House not proceed on wi 'th its business? Hhy this extraordinary indecent positively indecent rush to put interim supply through this House in ~o days ins~ead of the usual four, what is behind it? Are the members of this House I just to be subject to the whil.mspnd dictates of the Government and those on the Government side?

Is the public business of Newfoundland to be put aside, shunted aside, dumped aside, because certain members of the House had to proceed elsewhere on government business~· Mr. Speaker, is it not a fact that Prime Hinister Trudeau has just been absent from the House of Commons for the last ~~eek, in the North l<est Territories yet did the House of Parliament creep to a haJt, did the House of Commons ceaae its work because Prime Hinister Trudeau is ~one ·~ No, because Prime Hinister Trudeau and trusted his deputies, his government leader of the House another Cabinet '1inist:er.s . . .. . . --· ~ ·---;.

------ _ ... ... ~[arch lO i970. Tape 282 page 4. and left them to carry on with the public business while he went visitin g the North \·:est Territories. Hhy is it ~lr. Speaker, that this House must suspend its ~perations eve~; time the Han the Premier has to zo on a trip somewhere? It is absolutely fantastic. Is there no confidence placed in the deputy- premier? h~at is the cause of it? And now, this House has been asked Mr. Speaker, to suspend its rules for this busin es s all to be done today. Mr.

Speaker we on this side of the House were .xcC:used early in the session of obstruction because we ~~ere speaking up and asking questions and debating. Now we find this Hen. House is going to be adjourned for two or three weeks at the vrhim of the g·overnment when we are perfectly prepared to carry on with legislation, the Audress in Repl y , non-confidence motions, questions, public accounts committee, the Select Committee in Public Accounts, we are prepared to carry on ~lr. Speaker, we agree that Easter week is a normal period to adjourn n· r for Easter week, but we ar~ . planning to go to the Riviera.

He are not p~anning to go to Bennuda, ve are not planning to go to the Bahamas, ,.,e are not planning to go to London, He are not planning to go to Paris, ''e are not planning to go to Liechtenstein, we are not planning to go anywhere, except in to power when the next election is callec. ~ffi.NEARY: The hen. gentleman never knows where he .can go. }ffi.CROSBIE: And that goes for the hon. hiinister for welfare, I was disappointed Mr. Speaker, to see that the han. minister of Social Services & Rehabilitation is not going to Europe, because I very well think they may need some wuifare assistance over there. Mr.

Speaker, this a motion that is only palatabl~ that is only decent, that is only acceptable if, there orere twenty-four or forty- eight hours to go and this Government were trembling on the brink of being unnble to pay the civil servants and afraid that they would not get from the ei g ~th flo~r out the front door if they did not pay them; rt m~ght be acceptable then ~!r. Speaker, hut surely when this han. House has three weeks to go before the end of March 1-1e do not have to . be rushed :!.ike this and out:' Standing Order .. the only thing that we had to protect us Mr.

Speaker, t'and your good self and I ~o·..x that you will be avid in your protection:,that these lltanding Orders of this House of ; ,~f Assembly beAsuspended today for such an unworthy purpose }ffi.HELLS: Be suspended period, net just for today. MR.CROSlliE: It just does not say for the day that it be suspended for this business of the Interim Supply, as long as it takes to ramrod it, to railroad it, to push it, to stamp it, to stomp it, to squash it, to bury it, defeat it,e:ighteen feet or other~-Tise through this House that is what it amounts to Mr. Speaker. It is a ! 171 ------- ---

.. - "March 10, 1970 Tane 1!283 Page 1 MR. CROSBIE: is a sad time Mr. Speaker in the history of this Hou3e, when such tyrannical advice h~s to be used for such a petty purpose. We all remember Mr. Speaker, the famous pipeline debate up in Ottawa, and what was the pipeline about? That the Government after months of debate actually suggested that closure should be applied to the Bill. The oil pipeline Bill. Canada Mr. Speaker, exploded in anger at the arrogance and contempt of the Government of Canada, who applied-closure to that pipeline Bill.

And they went out of office in the next election, and a Tory Government succeeded them, which then vanished later, about five years later. Perhaps it was because the hon. Mr. Diefenbaker is said to have gotten twelve months interim supply. The hon. Premier says that was the reason, in that he got twelve months interim supply. Well if the hon. Mr. Diefenbaker got twelve months interim supply out of Ottawa, he deserved to lose that election~ ~nd any Goverr.ment that forces two months or three months interim supply out of the House of Assembly, with as little excuse as this one has got.

And on March 10, 1970 with twenty-one days to go until the beginning of the financial year, deserves Mr. Speaker, to go down in shattering defeat in the next election, because it is the epitom~ of the record of arrogance that has overtaken this Government now after tvTenty- one years in power. The Government will decide 1•hen this House is going to sit. The Government with its majority will decide what will be rammed through the House. The Government with its majority will decide when the rules will be suspended. The Government with its majority will decide what hapoens on private members' day.

The Government with its majority will decide whether we sit tonight until eleven o'clock, or go until breakfast tomorrow morning. We will decide that Hr. Speaker, if we have enough wind in us to do it. And if it goes beyond eleven P.M. Because we are on an important principle today Mr. Speaker, and as long as the bellows will pump air, we are going to talk on this side of the House against the obnoxious printiple of the fact that the Government is trying to pry $61.million and some odd thousand out of the members of this House, and the public of Newfoundland, in indecent and positively unhealthy haste. l.Jhy?

Not because tomorrow the money is I J'72 ' . • -·· < .... ~ --~ ..

March 10, 1970 Tape !1283 Page 2 needed, or the next day, or a weeks time, or two weeks time, or three weeks time, No, because certain members wish to expedite themselves to , . ., England, Paris, and we will have ~orne questions to ask, 1,where else ~this week. Now Mr. Speaker, they may be going on very serious government business, we have no doubt. But does this House have to falter and shutter to a halt because five of the hon. members of this House are ~ot going to be with us from tomorrow on, for four or five days? I submit to you Mr. Speaker, that I have much more confidence in Dr.

Rowe than is demonstrated by the leader of the Government. I submit that the hon. Dr. Rowe would be able to see that the business of the House was expedited. The hon. the Minister of Education would expedite the business of this House, and we would give him every co-operation Mr. Speaker, where that was deserved. So Mr.

Speaker, ~~e are being asked today~ by this Motion introduced i~ by the President of the Council., that that unique Parliamentarian, the t•JhO President of the Council.\ has twenty-one years' experience in this HouseJ of Parliamentary procedure 1 twenty-one years' experience. in expediting ),( matters through the House., moves this Motion today, that we thro~.out the rules until this Government gets the $61. million in its rapacious maw for two or three months after April 1, with no assurance Hr. Speaker, when ~~e are going to be called back, no assurance 1~hen the B11dget is going to be brought down.

No assurance on what da~e we are going to get the Estimates for t~·relve months expenditure. No assurance )>ut a lot of jocular kidding around ,as to ~~hether there is going to be an election or not in the intervening period. Because Mr. Speaker, there could very well be.

This Government 0 if this Interim Supply Bill is passed,.could go to the country before having to present a Budget, before having to disclose the financial position of the Province, before having to answer the many questions now on the Order Paper, and the hundreds that are going to be added to the Order Paper 1 without having the debate on the Budget, without having come to grips with the question of Civil Service salary increases 1 fhe police increase, the Police Act, the hospital workers' problemsr Increases for hospital workers. All that can happen Mr.

Speaker, after today, if ;J7J . . . ,. - - ~.- ~·- .... - ...

March 10, 1970 Tape 11283 Page 3 we quietly accede to this request that the rules be suspended and allow the Government to quietly get the $61. million that they wish. Not even Mr. Speaker, not even a request - if the Government came in Hr. Speaker, and said we only want enough money to carry on for three or four weeks, there are reasons why we cannot bring our Budget down, even though we have a majority we would like to co-operate with you. We will explain to you why we cannot bring the Budget down, and we are only asking for four weeks supply.

And we will give you assurance if the Government said we will give you an assurance that you will be called back in April, and that the Budget is going to brought down and the Estimates, with no hanky- panky of an election in between. If that kind of an approach were made Mr. Speaker, then of course there would be no reason tvhy on this side of the House tve tvould not co-operate, -(U knowing that all these things were going to be gone in, in detail and tvhen. But on this side of the House we have the direst suspicion that this might be the last day that this House of Assembly meets.

We have no reason to believe any other~wise, any other way, and therefore, we are going to act .on the basis that this is the last day we will be in this House, the present House of Assembly. And that when some of us reassemble back here, it will be an entirely new House starting again. And tve will be on the other side of the House. This is the hon. member's "duck song" and he is ready for any duck-hunter that wants to come hunting ducks wherever he is. Well at least Xr. Speaker, I am not a dead duck if I can lay an egg. So the han. gentleman is contradicting the hon~.the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, I know that the galleries should not comment or engage in this debate, and I am sure they will not. Now Mr. Speaker, back to this Motion. We all realize that at certain points in the House of Assembly pvoceedings or Parliamentary proceedings, a government must have certain vital things to carry on. And then any sensible Opposition, and they usually are, agrees. Usually, this is done ,.J... Mr.

Speaker, by consultation behind the Speaker's Chair, 1 it is called - the leader of the Government in the House, and the leader of the Opposition, and the leader of any other group in the House, meet behind the Speaker's

JW March . lO, 1970 Tape #283 Page 4 Chair·, and they discuss what the Government is proposing and the order of government business, and how the government needs to get money for Interim ~upply or whatever. And everyone treats one another fair~y,. and they agree on matters between them, and the thing is done properly, so on and so on. That is not the procedure adopted Mr. Speaker, in this House, because in this House we on this side of the House are treated with con~empt, and have been all during this Session. Almost impossible Mr. Speaker, to get information in many cases.

He saw an example of that attitude here and this afternoon. The hon. Minister of Mines, Agriculture ,, Resources refusing on specious grounds, to give information about mineral grants and f~restry grants in Labrador. And he does not know whether a company incorporated in Liechtenstein has any rights in Labrador. Well if a minister of that department does not know whether or not we have been invited by Liechtensteiners, surely he should know- MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I am finding .it very difficult to connect the present remarks of the hon. the member for St. John's West with the Resolution before the House. MR.

CROSBIE: I am sorry Xr. Speaker, I naturally bow to your honour's ruling. I was going to say that even in Liechtenstein Mr. Speaker, they would not bring on a Motion like this, to suspend all the rules. And to put $61. million through the House in one day. So Hr. Speaker, this Resolution before us today is part of a piece, it is part of a pattern · that has been operative in this House of Assembly since it opened on February 18. We are the Government. He have the votes. 1Ve are in control. We are the masters. 1~e are going to run things. The House will open and close when we decide.

The rules will be suspended when we decide. That has been the attitude. We will give the information that we decide to give, that we see fit to give. That is the attitude of the Government Mr. Speaker. we will decide what hon. members are going to be allowed to have an office near the precincts of the House of Assembly. It is all L'\ of one piece, It all fits together. And now the mail' fist not even in a glove, that the rules of the House be suspended, so that this matter, this small matter, this minor matter. $61. million- a minor matter go j.2 J.:S / . •-'" .... -·-- -· -;~. )

JW March 10, l9i0 Tape 11283 Page 5 through !!his House Hr. Speaker in one day. Was it not the late Mr. C. D. Howe who got into trouble once by saying, "what is in a million"? Well Mr. Speaker, this is a government that says, "vhat is in $61,680,000 that should bother any hen. member of this Hou.se of Assembly, and what reason is there for us not putting this measure through in one day"? Block vote. And the rules are to-be suspended for that. The rules so often cited in this Chamber by a certain hen. gentleman. We have been told Mr.

Speaker, I do not know how many times this Session, we were told by the hen. the Premier, "ho ho, ha ha," conversation of the Premier, giggling, chortling with glee, how the hen. members over on this side of the House did not understand procedure. Had a great laugh the hen. the Premier did Mr. Speaker, on the day that the first non-confidence Motion vanished without a debate. Practically chortled to death. We were advised Hr. Speaker, to learn the rules, us poor clots over here. We were advised to learn the rules, and we have learned them Mr.

Speaker, as the hen. gentleman found out yesterday, t~hen on two points of procedure, he was overruled. Be~uchesne and these Standing Orders were right on the point. And the hen. gentleman had forgotten about those points. The hen. gentleman never knew them. We were advised Mr. Speaker, to learn the rules. Learn the rules for what purpose? So that the Government can bring in a Motion that the rules be suspended, abolished, wiped out, run away with, squashed, stomped? So that the Government gets $61. million in its mitts, enough to carry it probably until the end of June, Hith frugal spending.

And since frugal spending is not a habit of this C~vernment, probably until the end of May in any event. That is what we are being asked to do. lVhy for Mr. Speaker, did we spend those weary hours on the rules and on Beauchesne and the Standing Orders to discover that when we started to learn the rules, and we were getting somewhere learning the rules. And we were not exactly fools about the rules. Only to discover that when we got to that stage, the rules were going to be dispensed with. The rules of the House be suspended on this Motion. There are twenty-one days Mr.

Speaker, until the end of March, and there is no reason why this House cannot sit during all of them except Easter week. It has been a practice to have a holiday then. Why this unholy rush Mr. Speaker! Why this dubious haste? " I ' . . -.. _ ... ..,, --_ .. .... -.

March 10, 1970 Tape li283 Page 6 What is the reason for it? 1-'e heard several days ago a week ago, that the hon. the Premier and hts party, a very attractive group they are. The hon. the Minister of Community and Social Development, the hon. Minister of Supply, the hon. the Minister of Health, the hon. the .President of the Council, are going on this business. And they were going to come back Mr. Speaker next Monday. and this House was going to meet with . Mr. Shaheen and his associates and these gentlemen and the documents, the Fe;sibility Study, and report.

And they were going to tell us where our money "as going and gone, and going to go. That was going to happen next week. Why the change }!r. Speaker? lfuy now are we to go for the next #' :: . - --,.=--- ... ~:·

}~rch 10, 1970, Tape 284, Page 1 -- apb HR. CROSBIE: Are we to go for the next three weeks without the House meeting. Does it not tend to arouse a little suspicion in ones mind as to what is up. as to what is happening? No assurance Hr. Speaker that we are going to meet again. No assurance that there is going to be a budget in this House. No assur<Ulce that the estimates are ever going to be· presented to this House. There is something wrong Mr. Speaker. Something calls out for an explanation. There is $61 million that calls out for an explanation. What is it to be used on?

We will be debating that later, and what for? Mr. Speaker, it is my submission that ~ny hon. member of this House that votes for this motion is voting against the institution of Parliamentary control of the expenditure of Government. We in this House are representing the people of Newfoundland. It is their money the Government is asking us to grant them. $61 million of it is going to be taken from them, and as the hen. member for Humber East would say that includes the cent on the chocolate bars that the little kiddies are running around paying, when they want to buy the chocolate bars.

Part of that is in the $61 million. That $61 million comes from the pockets of the Newfoundland people through taxes, and on future generations of Newfoundlanders because, some of it will be bor~owed, but directly or indirectly right from their pockets. This House is asked to vote it blindly, to accept it like a pig in the poke, to have the rules suspended, to put this all through in two day ar. Speaker, instead of the usual four. Why Mr. Speaker, is the Government afraid to face the House? To face the Opposition? Face the questions that we are asking, points we are raising in debate? We have been promised Mr.

Speaker that we are going to hear an outline of the DREE program, and we have been promised that we are going to have a "white paper" on the health services, and we have been promised I think -nrse- "white papers" on other matters. All that: are going to be debated in this House, and we were promised that the hon, the Premier had only completed half his oration in this House, that half of it was on the Speech from the Throne, ten hours MR. SMALLWOOD: One third MR. CROSBIE: One third, ten hours, and the other twenty hours~ going to be on the Budget. Now Mr.

Speaker, there is a dirty suspicion in our minds that there is not going to be any budget before this House for him to speak on, for the han. gentleman to speak on. It may be some different House, and it might very well be some different kind of a budget. Of course, Mr. Speaker, that might very well be very much better. Mr. Speaker, the members of this House have to decide whether they wish to support control in financial matters by the Legislature of the executive I _l 7 (

--- - - - ------- --- - ---------~- ---- --------· ~~rch 10, 1970, Tape 284, Page 2 -- apb ...... - ._.,. __ ,. ' ~ branch of the Government or not. Because if we suspend the rules and give this $61 million out without receiving the detailed estimates first, we are -(~ abrogating our duty. Evading our responsibility which is assure,the Newfoundland people that the money is being wisely spent, and properly spent. That is our duty. It is the Government's duty to spend it properly. It is our duty as ~embers not supporting the Government to see that they have done that, or that they are going to do that. Only Mr.

Speaker, in absolutey unusual and extraordinary circumstances should any House of Assembly or Parliament suspend its own rules to permit a Government to get for itself $61 million to go two or three months into the new year with. This is not one of those occasions Mr. Speaker. As I said earlier WL•<€. in this debate, if this was Harch 31st. or 2-!arch 30th., and the Government had to have Interim Supply to meet its bills on April lst. we would be the last to try to delay the matter. it:O:.~Q And if the Government ~ asking for a reasonable amount Mr. Speaker, but it is not doing either.

The Government has twenty-one days left . in March before it needs Interim Supply, that is one part of it. On the other hand Mr. Speaker, the Government is asking for two months at least, three months probably, Interim Supply which is too much, and is not giving us the estimates even Hr. Speaker, the estimates to look at in detail. AftP.r snending a lot of time Nr. Speaker, cogitating on the rules, reading them over, listening to you Mr.

Speaker, Your Honour, and the Deputy Speaker, listening quietly and attentively whenever you make a ruling and trying to remember your rulings, the rulings that you han. gentlemen propound so well ' in this House, after all that Mr. Speaker, and looking at Beauschene, putting pieces of paper in to mark the spot, Beauschene our great bible, we discover Mr. SpeQKer today that after acting on the urging of the han, the Premier and doing all that research-work on the rules, that now the rules are to be suspended. Well Mr.

Speaker, I for one will vote against this motion, I do not say that never should a motion like this be moved because, there comes occasions in every Parliament when it is necessary. One particular one being when you need Interim Supply tomorrow and it has not gone through and you have to have it tomorrow. That is one occasion, on other occasions Mr, Speaker, it should only go through by unanimous consent. This is not one of the occasions when anyone can justify this suspension Mr. Speaker of the rules of this House for such a puny purpose. Tomorrow there is going to be five from forty-one, Mr.

Speaker there will be thirty-five hon. memb~rs in this House of Assembly left in Newfoundland tomorrow after the-hon. gentlemen go to Paris or London. We can carry on Mr. f :2 7o/ • - - ~ - . -- - ~ - lo

- • .:r .... 'II "M•• ---------· . __ .___; ____ _ ~~rch 10, 1970, Tape 284, Page 3 -- apb Speaker, we-·will promise not to overthrow the Government while the hon. the Premier is gone. We will make that committment, that we will not defeat them in any substantial votes in the House while the hon. the Premier is gone. We will behave our-selves. We will be quite positive in our approach so that this House makes much progress while the hon. gentlemen are gone, if they will let the House continue in operation Mr.

Speaker and leave our rules, leave our -th;,t<l rules where they stand now and not . suspend Gt Mr.Speaker. We will agree to that. Mr. Speaker, we are quite prepared to accept direction that we should accept from the han. the Deputy Premier if he is left in that position. The hon. the Deputy Premier is a gentleman who has I think seventeen if not nine~een years experience in this House. We all know that he is an excellent debater, a little misguided in his views, little misguided as to where his loyalities should lay, but still a very capable and honourable gentleman, and it would be quite a pleasure Mr.

Speaker to sit in this House and have a Leader of the Government, a changed Leader of the Government for a few days at least. It may very well be that the han. the Premier will be where he is now for the next twenty years. But it would be nice Mr. Speaker, in this forty year period to have had this House open for at least two or three days with a different hon. gentleman occupying the seat of the hon. the Premier. We do not even ask Mr.

Speaker that it be someone from this side of the House, that has already been tried, and of course as the House already knows a certain party was squashed, squoozed, skwunched, skrunched; trodden under, eighteen feet deep, overwhelmed, defeated, not shell-shocked unless this is the result of shell-shock. So Mr. Speaker, we are not asking very much, just a few days for a different hon. gentleman to sit in the hon . the Premier's seat in this House and lead . the House, because Mr. Speaker, if that does not happen voluntarily then it is going to have to be arranged by the electorate of Newfoundland.

So Mr. ~peaker, my position in this matter is clear. I do not agree with the suspension of the rules. The suspension has not been just i fied, there is no emergency, There is no reason why the rules should be suspended, and there are hundreds of years of Parliamentary tradition behind the rights of members of Houses like this that we should strike a blow for today. HON. J.R.S}L\LLWOOD(Premier) : Mr. Speaker, we hope that the business of the House, the present business of the House, voting of Interim Supply to the Government for two months will pass through the House today, and get the Royal Assent. TI1at his .

Honour the Lieutenant Governor will come here and giv~ Royal Assent to this supply to Her Hajesty before the day is over. If we do we will --- ....... ...... ____

__ ..... -.. .. ~-· ._ .. _..,. March 10, 1970, Tape 284, Page 4-- apb move the adjournment of the House to }bnday, April 6th., and the House meeting on Monday, April 6th. will continue on uninterruptedly except for a possible delay, postponement, adjournment of a day now or a day then, but even a day I do not see, but I make allowance for the possibility that the House might wish to adjourn for a day for some particular purpose or other. Which purpose I do not forsee at the moment, but I make allowance for it. So the House meeting, yes the Tory Convention might happen.

Well if the Tory Convention comes on while the House is still in session I am sure it would be the desire of the entire House and all han. members to have an adjournmen.t for a day or two or' three whatever it may need for the han. members of the Tory Party opposite to take

part in their party convention. We would not hesitate a moment to ask the House to adjourn for that purpose. If anything else happens in the two, or three, .or four weeks, or four, or five, or six weeks that the House might need to be in session after it resumed its work on Honday, April 6th., the required day or two of adjournment we would not hesitate to suggest that to the House. And so Sir, the program of the Government , and we hope that the House will support it, we cannot carry it out without the support of the House. We are not a dictatorship, we are at the mercy of the han. members of the llouse.

I.Je can only porpose, we can only suggest, we can only make motions, and it is our duty to do so,thatiswhat governing means. Governing means that you bring in legislation. Governing means that you propose resolutions. Governing means that you make motions. Governing means that you bring business before the House. That is what a Gov~rnment does, that is what a Government is for. That is not dictatorship, that is democracy. But the Government fails completely in every move it makes if it lacks the support of the House. The power lies in the House.

A majority of the House must vote for everything the Government proposes to be done or it will not be done. If a majority keeps supporting the Government this maybe utterly sickening. This may be revolting, , and certainly very frustrating to han. members of the House who do not support the Government. They may despise the majority who do support the Government.

They may despise the·majority, they may think that they are slaves, they may think that they are curs, they may think anything of the majority, but the fact remains that the Government can govern only if and so long as a majority in the House support the Government. Now does that make the Government tyrants? Does it make them dictators? If a majority of democratically elected members of this House, and every hon. member Your Honour in this House was democratically elected in 'a secret ballc C in ·the last general election. Every .. ~ .. -~ -- ~'"'

..... ~~f' ---~-• .._..... . - ------·------ - March 10, 1970, Tape 284, Page 5 apb member in the House was democratically elec~ed, and we are all here by the democratic vote of the Newfoundland people. And if a majority of the democratically elected members of this House support the Government in this, and in that, and in the other thing does that make the Government tyrants? Does it make the Leader of the Government

!·!arch lOth. 1970 Tape 285 PK- 1 make the Leader of the Government a dictator. Does it make the House itself tyrannical? Does it make the whole House of Assembly a bunch of dictators, because they pass la•~s 7 But they were elected to pass laws. The Newfoundland people in the secret ballot vote, elected them to do that very thing. Now when the House reassembles on Honday, 6th. of April, we will go forward with the conclusion of the Debate-•on the Address in Reply, that will be proceeded with and concluded. And all the legislation that is on the Order Paper will be proceeded with, and I hope concluded.

And during th~t same time, the budget will be brought down. And so will the estimates and all the time that the House may need or may want. They may want more than they need, so be it, all the time that the House may want to use to debate the legislation the llouse will have. And all the time the House may want to debate the budget, the House will have. And all the time the House may want to debate the estimates of expenditure. The House •dll have. No tyranny. No dictatorship. No denial or surpression or control over free speech. We wish to get supply granted onto Her Hajesty to the amount of $61 million today.

This amount lvill suffice for t•·;o months, it may indeed be a bit more than enough: for two months, but it ~~ill surely be enough for t•.;o months. Next month, and, the month after.

And before the end of next month, that is before the end of April ve are confident and I am choosing my words carefully, remembering that they are being taken do~m on electronic tape, and that tomorrow or the next day, they <-rill be type and they will be put on the table of the !louse, the full verbatim report of what I am saying, remembering that I am choosing my I•IOrds carefully and as I say, l•le are quite confident that ue will have the budget ready to bring dmm and we ¥lill bring it down substantially before the end of April.

Because, Sir, before that date we will have come to our final conclusions, as to the rates of new pay, the new rates of pay, that we can afford, that the Treasucy can afford to give to the hospital workers and the policemen and the wardens in the penitentary, the firemen and the civil servants and other direct employees of the Government, 1-;e will have made up our minds by then, how much and in what way, how much increase and how the increase will varying from one class of employees to another class, because we have no thou~ht, Hr.

Spea~er, I llld.y tell your Honour, we have no. thought in the Government of having a straight across the board common, uniform rate of increase for all who are to get an increase. That would be easy, six per-cent, seven per-cent, eight per-cent, nine per-cent, ten per-cent, eleven per-cent, twelve per-cent, one simply across . ' - _,.. ... ..._ --

- .• ... - - ..,. ... - .. ·-a. }!.arch lOth. 1970 Tape 285 PK - 2 the board uniform rate of increase would be perfectly simple. You count up the number of persons to tvhom you propose to give the increase, you look at their present pay, you say, if you add five per-cent to that it will cost you this much. Ten per-cent will cost you twice as much, and yo~ wonder can you afford that much, if you can, you will say ten per-cent across the board, that is easy and quick and simple. But, Sir, in our opinion, it would be wrong.

Because in our opinion the different types of workers have different degrees of responsibility, require ~~~i\ differ~nt degrees of skill and are now some of them, unde~; too much more underpaid, than others are underpaid, even if we begin with the assumption that all are underpaid, we have to remember that some are more underpaid, than others. So we do not propose a uniform across the board increase. And the minute we so decide, we are up against a tremendous task, and it is tremendous, and we are being assisted in it, by P.A.

S. from Chicago, this firm, we have had here for a year classifying the whole public service, they are helping us in it, our Olnl civil service are helping us in it, our Department of. Finance are going through one exercise after the other to help us to get it done. And \<"~ so Sir, I am able to say today, that I am quite confident,, 1 in the Government, the Cabinet, are quite confident that substantially before the end of April, we will bring the budget dotvn, and with it the estimates of expenditure.

Now, if as we think will be the case, and I am willing to make a bcit with anyone that we are right in this, in thinking that'it is the case, that the Opposition this year, this session, will pay far more attention to the budget speech debate and far more attention to the estimates, than they have ever done before in tl~enty years, if I am right in that and I am sure I am. Then, Sir, it may well happen that the consideration of the budget and the consideration of the estimates will take five or six weeks, in this House.

And remember, Sir, that the Government have no money on the day the budget speech is brought down, the Government get the money only after the budget speech is brought do1n1, the estimates of expenditure are tabled, and the budget speech is debated, and then the estimates are debated, item by item, and after that is all done, and there is no:vord left from anyone, and the House votes the money, and the Governor comes and gives it the Royal Assent from that moment only, only from that moment have we the authority to spend the money.

From the date we bring the budget down, it may well be three, four, five, weeks before we ,. - . ----... --- ~

}larch lOth. 1970 TApe 285 PK - 3 get the money voted to us. Because we have no thought anymore in this session, than we ever had in previous sessions. We have not thought of shutting of the debate of closing it, of shortening it, of denying hon. members across the floor every possib;e opportunity that they may want to speak and debate both the budget and the estimates. Now, Sir, when you remember that the estimates consist of many, many thousands of separate and individual_items of proposed expenditure for the coming year.

And that each individual item is considered separately and individually, when you remember that and when you remember, Sir, that any hon: member of the House on either side has the right to ask questions of the ministers concerned, about each individual item of proposed expenditure, when you remember that, and when you remember e; en the small Opposition here two or three years ago, in a year where I happened to 'Ol.ke account, and I think it was seventeen or eighteen hundred questions, they asked in the debate on the estimates, and in this session, you are not likely to have 1700, you are more likely to have 17,000.

Recembering that, Mr. Speaker, it is easy to see that between the date when the budget is brought dotm, which t·lill be substantially before the end of April, possibly well sometimes be~veen the middle of April and the end of April. Possibly a little closer to the middle, than to the end, t·1hen you remember that bett<een that date, whatever it is, and thfl date tJhen the last Royal Assent is given, when the Bills are all passed, and the Governor comes and gives the Royal Assent, between these two dates there may well be anything from three to six weeks.

You will see your Honour why we want two months supply, not one. The hon. gentleman from the district of Burin moved in this House, or moved in Committee, that the supply be granted to the Government, yes. Supply be'granted to the Queen, but for only one month. In otherwords for next month. But, Sir, if that were ~ done, if the House had followed his suggestion, and voted for his motion, if the House had done that, then we would be getting supply for one month.

And then, Sir, if the House met on the 6th. of April, that is that one month now, the House resumed on the 6th. of that one month, and around say the 20th. of that month the budget is brought down, the·estimates are brought down, and the debate goes on up to the middle of the following month, which could well happen, where then is the Government getting its money? Does it then come-in for a second Interim Supply? Oh! how silly, how absurb? HotJ absurb? h'hat is the need for taking t~1o biteS'at it, what is the need to come into the House twice for Interim Supply?

So as to have another debate like . • --."'C"-!-:- · --- ~ '

---- ·- ··--- l1arch lOth. 1970 Tape 285 PK- 4 this one? l~ould that be the reason for coming in for a second supply, Interim Supply, so this thing could be done all over again? Now, I cannot help but remembering, 11r.

Speaker, that every statement made here by the han. gentleman who just sat do~vn, .every statement he made to the effect, that the House is asked to vote this Interim Supply for the first two months of the coming year, ~~ithout information, in ignorance, voting it blindly, I cannot help remembering two things, that seven hon. gentleman of the ten -over there, year after year, voted for Interim Supply, year after year, after year, voted for Interim Supply, that the hon. the }linister for Bonavista North who is not sitting in his seat at the moment, he was here a few minutes earlier I noticed, the han. member for Bonavista North voted again at least each one of six years, prior to this year for Interim Supply.

He voted for it, and he did not hesitate to vote for it, but then he was sitting on this side. Netv what special merit, ~•hat special virtue has suddenly come upon him? After being here for fourteen years, and in six of those fourteen years voting for Interim Supply, he crosses the floor. Hhat special virtue nmv makes him vote against the thing, that he voted for in over a period of fourteen years? The han. member for Fortune Bay has been in the !!a use for a total of, I think, seven years, during five of which he was in the Cabinet, but seven years he has had over here.

And he voted four .;•ears, four years he voted, for the very thing that he is now taking a stand on principle against. NoH does he seriouly expect that position to be taken seriously? Does he mean to tell ~s, that when he voted for it before, it was all right, but it is not right to vote fordt nm-1? lfuy not? Hhat makes the difference? The only chances in circumstances is that the han. gentleman nm·7 is sitting over there. No~• that is the only change<. . Now none other than that, that is seven of the hon. gentlemen across the way, seven of them.

Year after year t.•hen ever they sat in this Hous-e until this year, year after year, without exception, ~dth~ut murmur, without objection, without asy/lable of objection, expressed or felt, they voted for Interim Supply. l>Ihy did they vote for Interim Supply, Hr. Speaker? Because on every occasion when they did it, they knew that the budget was not going to be ready for the 1st. of April, Our year begins on the 1st. of April. And in any year ~rhen the Government are not ready to bring the ·budget down, and get it adopted, now they are not to brin~ it down before the 1st. of Aprii.

But bring it down, p,et it debated, and get it adopted and thc.Royal Assent given to it, any year that the Government cannot do that, and have it all done before April 1st. the r, I --··--- -.--~ ...

-------------- -------- ------------ --------- ----------- ---------- ·- --- ~!arch lOth. 1970 Tape 285 PK- 5 Government are driven to have no choice but to ask the House .to grant it somethinp, on account, sometimes it has been four months supply on account, four months Interim Supply for the coming year. Sometimes three months. Almost always three months, this year it is for two months. Now that is a change in the circumstances, that is a change. The seven hon. gentlemen -;,'tt.ing over there have voted for year after year, again and again, they voted~r it. Not~ they are voting against it. Why? lfuy, Mr.

Speaker? Why? There must be a reason. Now the Opposition ?this year is_the fourteenth year, when the Government brings in Interim Supply __ Fourteen years this year now. And in everyone of the thirteen years, before this year, the Opposition, the Official Opposition never, Sir, never, not once did the Official Opposition give more than the barest token opposition to Interim Supply. And not only that, Mr. Speaker, but on every occasion for thirteen years,the'. ~Opposition did this, the Government brought in Interim Supply and it went through in one day every time. Every time, without exception.

The-Opposition helped the Government to put through Interim Supply and did it in thirteen years1 in one day. It went through all its stages in one day. Thirteen years, this year it is taking two days to do it. Because we got ~Jice as many of an Opposition. All right, so be it~ It is all right, nothinR wrong! . . . ___ .,._ .... ~., .

-. JW Harch 10, 1970 Tape 1!286 Page 1 MR. SMALUlOOD: wrong with that. 1-le are now taking two days to do what we did in one day 7 every time for thirteen years. Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Community and Social Development, the hon. member for ~~ite Bay South has told this House that he will in this present Session, bring forward here for the House, the DREE program for Newfoundland. He has told the House he will do that. He has told the House more than that. Not only that he will bring the DREE program here, but give ample opportunity to the House to debate it.

Not only that, but that he will try to persuade the House to debate it. That he will be bitterly disappointed Sir, if the House does not give a thorough going debate on the DREE program, because this Government are intensely proud of the DREE program. And we want it to be thoroughly debated here, and it will be debated because if nobody does on that side of the House, it certainly will be on this side.

The hon. the Minister of Health, who is the member for the district of 1-lhite Bay North, has informed this House that it is his intention to bring a 1-lhite Paper before this House in the 1~hole field of Public Health. Hospitals, and Public Health. He has told the House that he has been working on it, he and his officials for many months past. And that they are getting close to having it ready to bring into the House. The hon. the Hinister is going ~1ith me tomorrow night to Europe and he will doubtless come back 1~ith me one day next week. We are not sure of what day it will be. We cannot be sure Mr.

Speaker, if we could we would, but we cannot, we do not know when it will be. l-le have hopes that on Saturday of this week, we will be able to sign the agreements concerning which we are going over across the Atlantic. But it may well be that it will 'be Monday or Tuesday before the actual signing can take place. · The signing of the documents for the great paper mill in Stephenville took place weeks, quite literally weeks after it was supposed to occur. And at last I went over and the President of the Council, one or two other Cabinet Ministers went with me for that great and historic occasion.

The signing of the documents for the great paper mill at Stephenville. But similarly there can be delay and we have some little reason, not big reason, but little reason 1 we have some slight little reason to believe

JW March 10, 19 70 Tape ll286 Page 2 that the signing may not take place on Saturday, it may very well be Monday or Tuesday, or even Wednesday. lo/e have waited for years for that vast development, and if we have to wait another few days more than we want, it will be a nuisance, it will be irritating, but it will not be fatal. And the bon. gentlemap will return with me to Ne1~foundland from the other side when these documents are signed.

And sometime after the ·· House opens on the sixth of April, he will table his White Paper on hospitals and health in Newfoundland, and he will be a bitterly disappointed minister after going through enormous trouble and effort to prepare that White Paper, if when he brings it in here, is not fully debated. He will challenge the House to give it a thorough going debate.

Now furthermore, the han. the Minister of Hines, Agriculture and Resources, who is the han. member for the district of Port-au-Port, has been working for many, many weeks past for a number of months .past, on the preparation of another White Paper, which will be of enormous interest - MR. MURPHY: Are we on Hotion 3 nO\~ Mr. Speaker, may I ask? MR. SMALLWOOD: lo/e are on the same Hotion to which the hon. gentleman everything from St. John's West snake about .1under the sun MR. MURPHY: I am not concerned ar.

Speaker, what the hon. gentleman spoke to, we are talking about the rules of the House being suspended, am I right on this or not. I am getting just a little confused. I would like to speak on it, but I would like to know what this subject is. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! }m. SMALLWOOD: I would like to speak to that point of order Your Honour. The Motion is that the rules of the House be suspended for one purpose, not Mr.

Speaker, as was suggested by the hon. gentleman who spoke before me for the rest of the Session, but for one purpose - if the House ~ill look at the Resolution and if Your Honour has undoubtedly looked at it, he will see and they will see that it is only for the purpose of this Interim Supply. That is what the suspension · of rules is for. Not for the whole Session, for this one thing.

And I am talking about this one thing 1~hy the rules should be suspended, so that we can have a vote on the Supp~y, and to reassure the House that this is not a dirty political trick, some slimy trick of which we have been virtually accused here - that this might be the last time the House will meet. I am trying to reassure the House ~hat . -- .. ~~-- ---.. ,

JW March 10, 1970 Tape /1 286 Page 3 they may safely suspend the rule so that we may pass this one piece of Legislation. And if the House suspends the rules, and passes this one piece of Legislation by six o 1 clock, then between ei·ght o'clock and eleven tonight, we can go on with the rest of the business and not under suspended ruling. The suspension applies only to this one piece of business. That is the wording of the Motion. .Now that "is why I am in order. .I am arguing Your Honour that we ought to suspend the rules for the purpose of passing . the Interim Supply this day, this day.

And so that the House may adjourn this day tonight at eleven or tlhatever time it may be, so that the House may be in adjournment during Easter week, that is one week between now and the sixth of April, Easter ~~eek and approximately a week while five of the senior ministers of the Cabinet are absent from the House. That is two weeks bet~•een nm• and the sixth of April. And so instead of coming back in between these two periods, we say adjourn the House, let han. members go back to their constituencies. Let hon. ministers go back to their work. Let the han.

Leader of the Opposition get ready for his Convention, and then resume on the sixth of April and go on if necessary for the next two months. That is ~'hy I am arguing today for this Motion that we should suspend the rules only for the purpose of this one piece of Legislation. Mr. Speaker, I have had some fun I admit, I confess it, I have had some fun tantalizing the Opposition, and the former Liberals and the new Tories. The former Liberals are not yet new Tories, they are still just former Liberals. Some of the former Liberals are now new Tories. There are seven of them.

There are seven over there that came into this House under my leadership. I got them in here. I managed to get them in here ~omehow or other, I got them in here. Seven of them. And ~have been having some fun with them, with the three regular Tories, the old lion Tories, the proper Tories, the regular, the established Tories, the Tory establishment. The established Tories. I have been having fun with all of them, trying to put them on their metal, and trying to put them on tenderhooks as to when the general election is coming. And I am continually dropping indiscreet - ....... _- ~ ~.::;. .... -

March 10, 1970 Tape il286 Page 4 remarks and apologizing and saying I did not mean to say that. And I t;e just want to keep them guessing as to when the election is going to-, held. Well now let me put them out of their pain. Let me put them out .of their agony. There will be no election between now and the sixth of April. No election, between now and the sixth of April. But on the sixth of April the House will meet and will stay in Session five days a week and four nights a week - MR. HICKEY: Until the election. }!R.

SMALLWOOD: Until the Budget is brought down, the Legislation or practically all the Legislation that is on the Order Paper, and some that is not yet on the Oraer Paper, is debated and passed and becomes law. And the Governor comes and gives the Royal Assent to the Supply unto Her Majesty.

Until that is all done, and I estimate, I do not see, unless we began to throttle off the Opposition to deprive them of every possible opportunity to debate~ unless we are to do that, I do not see how that can be done before if we meet on the sixth of April, I do not see how it can be done before the middle of the following month. At least a month, say roughly speaking a month, or five weeks after we come back. There will be no election until the House meets on the sixth of April, and does its business and concludes probably around the middle of }lay. Now when is the Convention?

What month is the Tory Convention? }!R. MURPHY: Hay1 I think, May the 15th. MR. SNALLlJOOD: May 15th. all right there will be no election this side of that Convention. I guarantee you that here now. I am not such a t-« political coward as to 1 afraid of the Tory Convention and try to run a snap election and catch them napping. I am not built that way. When I have an election, if I have one, it will bef.~rsrman-fashion, right out in the open. And I ~~ill fight it.; if I fight an election at all which is not · guaranteed. It is not guaranteed that I will fight an election in any shape or form.

I might just go out and campaign for the Liberal Party, but not as a candidate. I might not even be a candidate for election. I might not be leader of the Party, but I might go and campaign for the Party, and help get them back into power again. But none of that Mr. Speaker before the Tory Convention. Now I hope there will be happiness in that .·• . l . -·- ·- ·~

JW March 10, 1970 Tape· 11286 Page 5 camp that it should be a great relief because they really have not known, and this has been my doing. I have had great fun doing it. This is the normal fun of party politics, normal, not dirty, not filthy, not slimy, not sinister, just ordinary old-fashioned political fun, of which i~ surely, is proper to have some in this peculiar world in which we live today. Well there it is. I asked the House to suspend the rules. MR. COLLINS: The price of not having an ~lection is $61.million. /(11t...l..b.•,,; MR. SMALL HOOD: The price of not having an election is sixty-one_, dollars.

Now I would like to be able to follow that. I would like to able to follow that reasoning, but Mr. Speaker, I am not politically bright enough to do it. The hon. gentleman has depths of political wisdom and skill that I cannot - MR. COLLINS: Batten dmm again - MR. S!1ALWOOD: He is (;way ahead of me. He has left me away behind - HR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. SMALLHOOD: Yes, Your Honour, I fully agree. So I ask han. members·, I ask the House to vote far,th~ ~o~ion to suspend the rules.

I ask the House then to get down and consider whether they will vote these sixteen or seventeen amounts, you know $4. million for Highways, $11.million for Public Welfare; and $14. million for Health; $18. million for Education, for the first two months of the coming financial year, and other amounts totalling $61. million. I ask"them to suspend the rules and then go through this legislation. Take two or three or four or five or six hours, 1;hatever it may take, and debate it and pass it, so that the Governor may come and give Royal Assent to it.

Then we would adjourn until the sixth of April to meet and continue and complete the business of the Province. }!R. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, as I said I had to do ~ bit of checking to find out just what the topic on the Order Paper was after listening to the previous speakers, I did not know whether it was that general election we were talking about or the Tory leadership Convention. But I think basically we are speaking on which i~ our opinion over the years, and I am not one speaking for the first time on such a Motion as this, I could tell now the .~ . . .. ·- . ""':;:

}~rch lOth. 1970 Tape 287 PK - 1 how the han. the member for St. John's West, like a voice crying in the sweetness wilderness or just wasted his '· 1 . . , on the desert air, we have gone through this. l-Ie on many occasions have tried to weigh the facts, I think, I spoke on the same matter yesterday in this same debate on the Resolution. But we have, and this is continually happening each year, where we are called into session sometimes in February or sometimes in March, the Government are the operators of our business, the same as any other business.

I imagine the Board of Directors in a company, if they are suppose to have a financial statement down at the end of the month, at a certain time, I presume, if they are efficient they will have that statement down or else. But we cannot or else set this moment in this House because there are not enought &J!.;:us on this side to put the Government where they belong. NR. SH/~_11·/00D_: Hell, if there were the hon. gentleman would be over here, and v7e ''ould be over there. HR. l~HY: Hell, that will be something that He Hill see very shortly and I think it Hill be a great pleasure to look down from the Ivory Tower.

HR. SH.~~WOD: How shortly is very shortly, Mr. Speaker? HR. NURPHY: All I want is a chance to speak. !1R. Sl!ALLHOOD: ,Ul right, go on. HR. HURPHY: If anybody wants to check Hansard, it is hard to say who is having the address, or '"ho is asking the question. I '"ould just ask, just for a few moments of the time, the Premier spoke for ten hours the other day, unfortunately I was on the ~2inland, I did not even get the echo of his voice. I missed it I know it 'vas a great treat.

But I am just trying to make one or two points as sensibly as I can - and to try and bring forth why do we need to suspend the Rules of the House at this time? I think I expalined yesterday, and I think the hon. member for St. John's \Vest did also say, that ''e have a Governemnt, they have a job to do, and the job is to run the affairs of this Province. The most important, the most basic part of running any business, is the capital, the monies, the plans you have for next year, how much it cost last year, if you have money in the bank, or if you have no money.

Now up to this present moment, we do not even know, if we owe a dollar, or if we have a dollar, or if we owe a $100 million, there was no supplementary supply, so we presume that in the budget vote of last year, there is still sufficient money that carries . .-... ~---.-... I 1

}larch lOth. 1970 Tape" 287 PK - 2 us to the end of March, which is the end o.f the Fiscal Year •. Now this Bill was presented to us requesting $61 million, and that is a lot of hay, $61 million. Now, honestly and I think my hon. friend will agree, I do not think the Government is going to split this $61 million up ~hirty-five ways. They may be going to Paris, they may be going to London, I do not know. · }!R. SNALUlOOD: lve may spend a bit of it over there • • --r tlR.

MURPHY: They may spend a bit of,, over there, I guess ·when the Bills are · in for ,' and I presume the passage will be first class, as usual, we do not travel second class, or economy in our Government, we go first class. And that is a few extra bucks that it cost the people, but as the Premier says, he answered a question for~"llle last year, he said; 'it the merchants on Hater "f> Street can fly first class, so can I. But, I think, most of the merchants fly second class, or economy and that is why they have a bank balance at the end of the year. But, Mr.

Speaker, the principle of this, the Premier insinuates that they are tyrants, they are dictators, they are this, they are that, or something else, this is not what I would like to bring before the House, as I say, we had just about t<.Jelve full months to prepare for Narch 31st. for our budget, in Heaven's name why has not this been prepared previous to the time, that it is suppose to be brought down! l'lmv the Premier will smile at that, oh, no Government in the world does it. Oh, - this is always a good excuse. No, Government in the world does it, every Government looks for supply.

I quoted yesterday from a P,aper, it is suppose to be a statement by the Premier, and it was on February 6th. that the budget would be brought in the middle of }!arch. tlR. SI!ALLVIOOD: I did not say that. }ffi. }illRPHY: Now I am only quoting the paper , I will get the paper if- }!R, Slo!ALLWOOD: I never said that at all. MR. MURPHY: I take it the Premier wants to deny it. MR.

S}!ALLlvOOD: I do deny it • }!R. }lliRPHY: But, in this House and this is my eighth session, I get most of my information from what is happening from the newspapers and from the radio and television. ·}!R, S}!ALLWOOD: That is why the hon. gentleman is so badly informed. ~--~-- · -- -- --~- --· ~ ··-----·---··-----------..-.-.. •.-. --~ --·-•"?">"" . ._,.__,_, __ .......,....,~ .. ---.-- ... ~-- 1

.- • • • J' --... ---- -- --- . . ..

Harcli lOth. 1970 Tape 287 PK- 3 MR •. }fiJr..PHY.:. ----- Hell, unfortunately it is the only way the hon. ge~tleman can get information in a lot of respects, because most of what is happening, I heard yesterday, I think the first official announcement made about this adjournment was over the Premier's Program, yesterday morning I believe, as Leader of the Opposition I heard, it was discussed with the Leader of the House, and he says, t~e are thinking about taking a recess for a while, and. yau .• know it just struck me, ho<1 stupid it seemed t.;hen we came in here some three weeks ago, afternoon and night, until 11:00 O'Clock.

I am repeating some to what I said yesterday, but I think it is important. I sound like a broken record, • .<;D. ,'d but you know the Premier got up, and11 the people are paying you felloHS, you are only ~~orking three hours, I ~~ish I could repeat, the <tonderful expressions he used. Here we t..rere just a miserable bunch of elected members, only working three. hours a day, and you are getting paid for it. So t~e work six hours a day, and also in the mornings which the Premier did not tell the people of Newfoundland, that we have ,.10rk to do in the mornings.

So '"e have from 9 in the morning, until 11:00 in the night, and no t;onder we look all groggy, or just about thunder struck. HR. S!-I..ALLWOOD: Do I look groggy? MR. HURPHY: You never looked better. But, Hr. Speaker, I must speak against this method of jamming business through the House. I do not say it is dictatorship, or I do not say it is anything else.

But, in most cases, a large majority hate to take advantage of their numerical strength, not only in the House of Assembly, but I think anywhere, it is a form to me of being cowardly, where if it comes to a vote, everyone, everyone on that side will vote for it, there is not a doubt in my mind at all about it. HR. SHALUiOOD: Everybody over there will vote against it. }ffi. MURPHY: And everyone here will vote against it. HR. SHALUiOOD: All right. cv"r- al~,my separated MR.

HURPHY: And if the Party Whip is.not on, because after -'!t.f\N brethern, I have no control, I suppose any more control~ if I went to the member for Gander. HR. SHALLHOOD: The key word there. }!R. HURPHY: He would be liable to tell me where so to.· and if I did not go, he would be liable to throw me there. ., -----· --------------- ~ . . I - -. ·-·-·-·--

- ... -~;.,. .. r!arch lOth •. 1970 Tape'287 _ PK- 4 HR. SHALLWOOD: The key word there is "brethern" MR. }!lJR.PHY: But, Hr. Speaker, as I say on this we have a very seriow;;. proposition here, the Premier got up and he pleaded in his ,usual way, he did not use today that the civil servants would be without their pay so on and so forth ".

We have heard that, we can see them there just going home until the first of April, or the first payday everybody heading for the , .. finance companies, says;look, the Government had no money today, will you loan us a couple of weeks salary? and you know as soon as the~dirty opposition, that dirty miserable crowd pass . this Bill, we will get our pay." I think this is the impression that is left, we are intellectually bankrupt, perhaps, which is a favourite expression of one of the learned member's on the other side, but I do not think we are as s~upid, as all of that.

I think, "e try to put before the people what vle feel is right. And my deep regret, quite sincerely~ts that this Bill could have been introduced last week at sometime. I think, tJe could have had the three or four days of discussing it, breaking it down,finding out, just Hhat $61 million is used for, \i"e know it is going to be used for Government departments, but for ~·lhat purpose.

I think, it is the general feeling~and the general custom is that there is some sort of estimates submitted before, ~Jhere we can size up, well, if the Government want to buy five new airplanes for "example, and we say no., the present tHo or three is enough for flying the members out to open schools or visit some other area, .You knmJ, ~Je let certain things go, but I think two extra planes 'Jould not be the best.

Perhaps, l·le could put an extra bit of carpet on the great office in Grand ?alls, I do not knmJ hmv many times it is being used by the han. minister, but I hear he has a very jJalacial office out there, and a very nice office staff, you know, and vle have a beautiful one in Con1er Brook, where tve \Jere going to hold Cabinet l1eetings, I think, once a month. I doubt, if there was ever a full fledged Cabinet ~!eeting held out there. But these are some of the things, Mr. Speaker, why we want to know what the money is being used for.

And I, as I have on previous occasions, I think, the Premier mentio~ed was seven or four, seven occasions in the past number of years that '/1i 1 <,., some of these gentlemen supported,, Possibly, they did. Possibly, they did. Hut as I said the other day, going through life, life is an education in itself. Yo~ know, you learn everyday, and every week, and every month, something different. And I am very happy, I am very happy_, ·very pleased particularly ...... .. -··· - .,.

. -........ ~ .... , .... - }larch -lOth. 1970 Tape 287 PK - 5 as a member of the Opposition for eight' ye;ars, and for the people of Newfoundland that we have seven outstanding Newfo.undlanders, I say fine intelligent gentlemen, ''ho for some reasons or other, they may be personal, but they are now on .this side, and I would like to thank them at this time, because there is a lot of shrapnel coming this way in the passed few sessions, I think a lot of it is left now, and my skin is not burning so much when I get home in the evenings, as it used to be.

But, I do not think, we can block this, we can speak . on itjsomeoner asked me whet~er we were going to speak all night, well I am in no humor to speak all night to be quite honest with you, I think the peop~e of Newfoundland do not expect us to speak all night, on foGlish trival things not pertaining to the Bill, I would just like to say that as far as I am concerned, that this thing could be done the proper way, no matter what we say, we have been saying it for seven or eight years, next year the same thing will happen, that they have to have this money.

Now we are going to have a three 'veek recess, I believe, las~ year someone mentioned we were going to be off Holy \-leek, and everybody gets very pious all of a sudden. I believe, we had Good Friday off last year, and I think we went the rest of Holy Heek. It was just Go()d Friday, and the pressure of business I suppose was not so great at that time, I mean of lot of us 'wuld still like to think of Lent as being a devotional season, I know I used to like to go out in the evening, but I cannot now.

I still offer up there in the morning for the Premier and his Government that they will see,the light, and let us carry on. I try to be a decent gentleman, to the best of my ability. \'1\i Sometimes it is rather tough, Hr. Speaker, but I 11 you know. Now, we are going to have this three weeks as I ~Vas saying and no~¥ w we ~¥ill come back again on April 6th. you will think it is~ man-of-war coming into this House. He will be driving at 3:00 O'Clock, and back again tonight, and then perhaps the mo~ing, morning91Ve will meet at 10 ;00 0 1 Clock the people's business has to be done.

We are going to lose three weeks of this, and not a worry about it. Because the Premier, and four of his senior Cabinet ~linisters, he said senior Cabinet Ministers, I do not know what seniority is in Cabinet now, but the Deputy Premier, I would imagine is a:. senior Cabinet Hinister. I imagine the Hinister of Finance has a very senior post. HR SHALLWOOD: ------- All the senior ministers are not ~oing. ;:ztf7 . . • • •• --- - ..... :1,

\ I . '.· · Harch lOth, 1970 Tape 287 PK-6 MR MURPHY: No, you said some of them. NR SNALLimOD: Five of them. Five. MR MURPHY: I think in the Premier's democratic view all ministers are equal. Perhap's he is not saying; you know! MR S}~LI~OOD: Some are more equal than others. ~ffi ~ruRPHY: More equal than others, yes. As my hon. colleague said a few years ago: "Remember", he said, "most of these people are human beings." And I think most of us - One quarter? One quarter of the Cabinet is going.

And the House must close down and everything grinds down and, I suppose, in the interval .,.,e will have this place fumigated and aired out, so on and so forth, and get it ready for this new session.

But it is very significant, very, very significant, and I only thought when the hon. member from St John's 1-l"est. mentioned that the Prime ~linister of Canada had spent some days in the north and the House went on its own merry way and they carried on. 1-'e hear. the Premier on his announcements when some of these gentlemen resign, that he had perhaps the greatest Cabinet (I don't knc;~·7 if greatest is the ~1ord) the finest Cabinet that this Province has ever seen, when he appoints these ne~• cabinet ministers.

And I would like one day, some day, to try the metal of some of these fine cabinet ministers, without the Premier. I remember friday afternoon, Mr. Speaker, and I don't know if you were in the Chair, but I think it was bliss here friday afternoon to listen to the hon. the senior meirber for Harbour }lain, on a very interesting address, and a new, complete atmosphere seemed to take over in the House. The hon. the Premier ~1as absent, the hon member for White Bay North. These is nothing significant in ~.;hat I said about that but it ~•as a beautiful atmosphere there in the House.

Ile all enjoyed it and I Think the hon.member went on and he spoke and we asked questions very nicely but there was not this intermittent, "The Hon. Member forSt John's Centre", "The hon. the Premier", then "the hon. minister" and then the "Premier", you know it seemed like the sort of thing we have had for so many years in this House of Assembly. But, Mr. Speaker, quite seriously I feel that this is quite unnecessary.

I think it is, I won't say a breach because it is within, I think, the statement is that "The House is master of its mm rules", at least I think this is the statement which has been quoted to us so often I think it is a very serious ~ . ... . ... ·- --- .

---~~-~-·- March 10 1970. Tape 288 page 1. I . think it is a very serious matter when a Govern~ent, such an outstanding government who ha~e had twenty7~IBtise, now this is not a new government a government with twenty years experience still has to wait until the last moment to come in and get $61 million in interim supply. I think after twenty-one years they should be on the ball but, what is the old saying, familiarity, fhe lo"· ,., hon. member is right on the ball, familiarity breeds contempt, just scared, just a little bit scared Mr.

Speaker, that this is another, some more evidence of that same thing that this House, in essence is the People's House but I am afraid that in many instances it is not the House of the people. It is the House of the Leader of the Government and I am very sorry to see that this thing has to happen again this year, as we discussed it last and again we have it, true we have some extra members on this side of the House for debating this thing no doubt about it this supply will b~ granted but I do not think it will be granted before every member in the House should have a chance to express his opinion on it.

We do not wish in any way to delay payments of salaries to civil servants or anything that is absolutely necessary. But I think the people of this Province should know, should know that if such a thing did happen it is not the fault of the Opposition that that would happen but the fault of a government that has grown careless in administration of the various departments and that the onus the blame should be placed on the inefficiency Mr.

Speaker on the inefficiency of the government in letting this thing go so long, it is not too long as the han. m~ber points out again we still have twenty, twenty-one days to the end of the month, We could still be discussing it but the Premier .'r ) ) has to go away, there used to be a saying during the war, is this trip necessary? Well I think the trip is necessary but closing the House I do not think is. MR.SMALL1{00D: Does the hen. gentleman remember the famous remark that used to be years ago, "Wait until Bond gets back." MR.MURPHY: "Wait until Bond gets back • .-. MR.

S~!t\J"LHOOD:~•wait until Bond gets home.,.1 MR.MURPHY: No, never heard of it. Is that is what the Premier is then relating now Sir Robert Bond, he is a great admirer of his, and perhaps that is what we have to do wait until.I can wait to see the hen. Premier's name but I cou~a say but - Mr. Speaker, I am not going to be too much longer, I have just tried to put· forward what I said yesterday and that is with reference to this unnecessary motion today.

I think if things were handled properly as I said the estimates were all approved.I·had several phone calls , a· lot of, people are getting a little nervous, the ~remier has cleared up some of their nervousness they felt

}larch 10 1970. for sure that there wou~d be an election called before the " budget come down and that would perhaps deprive some of these people who have been promised raises of the raises in the new budget but the Premier has allayed all our fears MR.S}~LKOOD: I have not seen the hon. gentleman so happy, I have not seen him looking so relieved since the House opened as he is now. He is happy and relieved. MR.MURPHY: I would like to have a correction made in Hansard. I said fears, hopes was the word I meant to use, fears just slipped out on me, that there would be an early e~ection.

MR.SMALLHOOD: The hon. gentleman is so happy, s'O,so happy. MR.MURPHY: He have nothing to fear but fear itself. So Mr. Speaker I will too go on record as opposing this motion and I feel that this is a very, very serious matter as I said earlier $61 million is a lot of coppers. MR.SMALLHOO~ Yes, that is one way to put it. ~1R.}ruRPHY: Yes, and when the time comes I hope that we can debate the various amounts in detail so.that we will get some ideas just what these momies are going to be used for. MR.WELLS: Mr. Speaker, it seems Sir, that I think we have strayed from the real topic , c~nder discussion.

Perhaps Sir, it is necessary to show ~1hat in our opinion is the obvious reason for doing this, ~nd to set the matter properly before the House, perhaps we had better consider just what the rules are and the significance of having rules in this House,T'b offer the quote: "That this House is master of its own rules" and let it fall at that . is not tc: say the truth, the entire truth. Of course this House is master of its own rules, it made the rules it can unmake the rules. But this House '~hen it did make the rules originally made them for a specific purpose as all hon. members know, or at least should know.

The purpose of having these rules is to regulate properly regulate debate so as to insure that the majority does not just override and ignore the m1nority/~~ 0 gge House. l:hat is probably the most significant purpose of the rules, there are others to maintain order in the · House and maintain an orderly debate. This one particular rule that causes us now to suspend all of the rules and that is what we are doing in relation to this motion, the Government have asked that the rules be suspended on the motion for Interim Supply now on the Order Paper and on the Supply Bill to be -r;,~ 'f ,;_ . L~ introduced.

So_.,asking that the rule be suspended in relation to this motion and in relation to debate on the Supply Bill, only in relation to those t"•o matters. But we are spspending all of the rules, the primary rule that makes ·it necessary.is the rule that requires that a Bill go through one stage in any ,.

March 10 1970. Tape 288 page 3. one day. Now why did we have such a stupid rule if we are not going to abide by it. One of the obvious reasons for having such a rule as that is to allow all members of the House an oppo~tunity to properly access the Bill and the matters that come up and to allow ~ime for consideration and re-consideration andfurther re-consideration that is the purpose of having the variety of readings and so on. ;fhat is the reason for the rules, }!r.

Speaker, and what we· .. are now asking is that all of the rules including this particular one be suspended in relation to the motion for supply, for interim supply and for the interim supply Bill.

There is not a more significant bill in respect of which the rule could be suspended nothing more important, thaq is a money bill asking for $61 million, h~w assuming and taking for granted that everything that goes through this House shoul~ be properly and adequately debated and fully and thoroughly treated,above, that avove everything else)money bills must be thoroughly considered before we can write a cheque for $61 million and say to the government;here spend it how you please, so long as you keep within the subheads listed, But we do not care whether you pay the whole allotment.in respect to Provincial Affairs to the minister, ~•e do not care.That is in effect o:.1hat we are saying.

You must spend $307,000 in the Department of Provincial Affairs, we do not care how you spend it. Now I know, I can safely assum2 7I think?that the han. minister is not looking for an increase in salary from $12,000 to $307,000. it .is a safe assumption for me to make. But nevertheless tlr. Speaker, that is the significance of it, and the Government comes in and asks us to suspend the rules. Suspension of rules should only arise in case of an emergency.

Otherwise the rules are of no purpose all the government has to do is to serve dotice of Motion that it is going to call for a vote of suspension. l.fuat value are the rules unless \¥e abide by one of the fundamental rules of democracy that \ve take this kind of action only in the case of an emergency. Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. the . President of the Coancil I think, gave