Manitoba Hansard — 29 Aprll 1991 (Sitting 32A, 35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-32a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis c. Roctm Speaker VOL XL No. 32A • 1 :30 p.m., MONDAY' APRIL 29, 1991 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBl V Thirty-Fifth Leglslature LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID , Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnk ster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

12 77 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, Aprll 29, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon 20 visitors from the University of Winnipeg, and they are under the direction of Ms. Roxie Brunen. They are guests of the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr). Also this afternoon from the Nordale School, we have fifty Grade 8 students under the direction of Ruth Hargrave.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaud ry). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Pines Project Funding Approval Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, members of the opposition over the years, and as recently as two weeks ago, have been raising the Pines project with this government in terms of its criteria for approval of this project. We have had a lot of conflicting information from three different ministers of the cabinet.

We had the former Min ister of Urban Affairs and Housing saying he is taking an evenhanded approach. We have had the Minister of Transportation in 1989 talking about even asking the federal minis ter to overrule the project and stating that the economic difficulty of this project was to go ahea d in term s of what transportation policy for the Province of Mani toba would allow or have the government look at not giving this project any money. Now we have the idea that the government is in fact going forward with this idea.

I would ask the Premier why did he, as head of Treasury Board, approve the public funding for the Pines project in the city of Winnipeg contrary to the advice he had received? • (1 335) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, it depends on which advice the member is referring to. The reality is that the government of the City of Winnipeg, duly elected and duly authorized and man dated to make decisions with respect to zoning and land use, approved that particular project. Mr.

Speaker, in the past we have steadfastly maintained that the government of the city of Winnip eg ought to make decisions within the five-year program known as Plan Winnipeg and make decisions that are consistent with the planning and zoning requireme nts of that. The City of Winnipeg made that decision consistent with Plan Winnipeg. We have, therefore, decided that we ought not to interfere with that decision making, because the City of Winnipeg has the authority to make that sort of decision.

With respect to the application for the mortgage funding, the Seniors RentalStart program, we have a program that has certain criteria, a program that I might say was established by the New Democrats in government, criteria that were set by the New Democrats when they were in government. The application by the Rotary Club of west Winnipeg fits those criteria, so that is the reason why the project was approved. Information Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, yes, the City of Winnipeg did approve a number of zoning changes that many citizens and many commerce groups objected to very strongly. The question is not whether the City of Winnipeg had approved a zoning or not, they did that a year and a half ago. The question is: Why did he as head of Treasury Board, the Premier, approve public funds that could put in to jeopardy jobs at the airport, the riverbank policy of the provincial government and other factors that run contrary to the public interest?

12 78 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 91 I would ask the Premier: Will he table the recommendations from the Department of Housing? Will he table the report from Transport Canada? Will he table the letters from the former federal Minis ter of Transport, Doug Lewis? Will he tell Manitobans why public funds should go in to this project? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, public funds go into projects that qualify for those funds and this project, like many, many others that have been approved for housing in this province for seniors supported.

That was the reason, I presume, that the New Democrats evolved and created the Seniors RentalStart program was to be able to stimulate the construction of seniors' housing, affordable seniors' housing in this province. We, as a government, carried on that program that was put in place by the New Democrats. This particular project qualified for that funding, met the criteria, and therefore it was approved. Airport Restrictions Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, a Transport Canada study-and I was disappointed the Premier did not agree to table the correspondence and make public the criteria before cabinet that I would suggest is in the public interest-has shown that flight restrictions could result of noise objections from citizens in that area. It could cost possibly 13 0 jobs at $38.5 million. I would ask the Premier why he did not consider those realities, Mr. Speaker? Yes, there have been citizens in that area before, but clearly Transport Canada says further high density development in the same area could result in restrictions on our airport.

I would ask the Premier why he approved this project for seniors housing in that area when all the advice from the Chamber of Commerce, citizens' groups and Transport Canada were giving him contrary advice for the best interest in Manitoba? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the St. James Chamber of Commerce, which is the most involved in this particular area, represents this area, is in favour of the project. There are already 14 apartment blocks directly under the flight path, many of which are closer to the airport than that.

There are thousands and thousands of residential dwellings and residences that are already within the flight path, many of which are closer to the airport than that. All of those matters should be known to the member. Instead, he is attempting to make some political hay out of a project that is supported by the community, by the seniors, by the Rotary Club and by the St. James Chamber of Commerce. One has to wonder where he gets his priorities and what his agenda is. * (1 340) Tender Process Mr. Speaker: The honour able Leader of the Opposition, with a new question. Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the Premier well knows that the Transport Canada study says further high density in the area could result in these changes with the airport status, so the Premier did not answer the question again. He will not table the reports. I have a new question to the Premier. We have had further questions in this House before about the public tendering process. This project again is a project that has not gone through the public tendering process, notwithstanding the fact that public provincial money that he is accountable for is at stake.

I would ask the Premier why he failed to ask as one of the terms of reference that a public tendering process would be utilized for the approval or disapproval of this project? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, all of the su btrades in this project will be tendered publicly-all of it. The mem ber should know; he was in government.

Perhaps he has forgotten that when housing developmen ts of this nature are put forward, the proponents, in this case the Rotary Club, have to select some major contractor to be the one who invests in all of the soft costs, getting engineering drawings, getting the land requirements and approvals, going through a zoning process, all of which involve thousands of dollars-te ns of thousands, sometimes even hundreds of thousands of dollars-invested in getting the project to an approval process.

Then when it is approved, all of the subtrades, which are all of the elemen ts of cost, are then publicly tendered, and it will be done on that bid basis. He should know that because that is standard practice. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we will talk about standard practice. There are two-

April 29, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 12 79 Mr. Fllmon: Go ahead. Mr. Doer: Well, the Premier is heckling from his seat. There are two public projects now being fun ded by him-and he and his government- for Seniors RentalStart. One of them is in Niverville, Mr. Speaker, where there have been 1 0 bids in a tender process. Three of those bids have been asked to come back to come even lower, the three lowest bids I might add, not like the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, the latest project. The three lowest bids have been asked to come back in a public tender process.

The Premier mentions our government. The Fred Douglas lodge was an open tender process, the inner city was an open tender process. Why did the Premier not demand an open public tender process in this project? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the member would give me some information. I do not know which project he is referring to. I do not have the information in front of me. I would be happy to give him a full and complete answer, but as he was told earlier on the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation request for space, all of that was done through a public tender process.

When the low tenderers could not comply with the specifications, all the other tenderers were asked to reconfirm their bids, which they did do. It was on the basis of the lowest tender that saved a million dollars for the taxpayer that the award was made, so let him not try and put forward any false implications. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we have one project that has 10 bids now before the public and another project with no tendering going on with his Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst).

When the government appointed this min ister as the new Min ister of Housing and Urban Affairs, we said that this is going back to the old ways, the back-room ways of dealing with government. Mr. Speaker, why will the Premier not remove this min ister who is always dealing in the back rooms, whether it is city boundaries or housing projects or whatever and give us a new way of doing things on open public process rather than the old back-room way that he is- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: Mr . Speaker, the memb er for Concordia (Mr.

Doer) simply will not under stand that all of the bids for all of the trades in this project will be by open public tender, every single element of it. He ought not to try and put false information on the record; it does not become his integrity. The reality is that all of the trades will be tendered, and that is the way in which those projects are often done. Pines Project Funding Approval Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the Premier accuses the leader of the Opposition of making political hay, but it would appear that the only person trying to make political hay is the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst). When the government deindexed the 55-Plus program, we were told that it was done because the money was required for health care. In light of that, it would appear the only person whose health is improving is one Don McKenzie and Bob Akman.

The min ister's decision to give the $4. 7 million worth of grants and low-interest loans to his friends is directly counteracted by all of the studies that have been done of this particular project. Why has this minister decided to go ahead with this project contrary to his Minis ter of Highway and Transpor tation's (Mr. Driedger ) statemen t on November 2, 19 89, in which he said there would be no government money in this project? * (1 345) Hon. Jim Ernst (Mi nis ter of Housi ng): Mr.

Speaker, I find it reprehensible, quite frankly, that the leader of the second opposition party would call into question, for instance, the credentials of Mr. Don McKenzie, one of 30 volunteers of the Rotary Club of Assiniboia, volunteering his time to create a seniors' project for this communi ty. Whether I know Mr. McKenzie or whether I do not is immaterial. He is a volunteer; he is there helping the Rotary Club of Assiniboia to develop a seniors' project for that community. I find it reprehensible that the leader of the second opposition party would call into question his credentials. Information Request Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, then the minis ter will have no difficulty putting before this House today

1280 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1991 copies of reports and studies which he has, which would counter the objections raised by the federal Department of Transport, local residents, his own advisory committee which recommended legislation to control by the province the development like the Pines. Hon. Jim Ernst (Minis ter of Housing): Mr. Speaker, if the leader of the Opposition had read the Winnipeg area airport report, she would know that there is no specific indication of that particular project at all. It deals in generalities. Mr. Speaker, let us put this in perspective a little bit.

This project is four blocks from the flight path, four blocks west of the flight path. Between it and the airport, there are 17 blocks of residential construction-housing, 17 blocks. This is not right adjacent to the airport. This is not right under the flight path. As a matter of fact, it is right at the edge of the noise profile, as stated in the report of the airport agreement study. That study is available. The leader of the second opposition party knows that, and her critic has provided it for her, so there is no need to table that particular information. That is public knowledge.

Seniors' Programs Government Priorities Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, with a final supplementary to the minister. How can this government hold its head high and say that it is concerned about seniors when it takes a $350,000 program to deindex 55-Plus and throws it away, and gives a $350,000 grant to a building project which is questionable by other levels of government? *** Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, the Rotary Pines project has-- An Honourable Member: No answer. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mrs.

Carstalrs: Perhaps I can ask another question they are willing to answer. If they are not willing to answer that question, can I have leave to ask another question that they might answer? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable leader has asked her question and her two supplementary questions. I have recognized the honourable member for Burrows. Mr. Martindale: We will give leave to the member from the second opposition party to ask her question. *** Mrs.

Carstalrs: Can the Premier of this province tell us why he is not prepared to help senior citizens living below the poverty line, but is prepared to put money into a development project which quite frankly has all the earmarks of one more than acceptable to the private sector? •

(1350) Hon. Gary Flimon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the project that the leader of the liberal Party is criticizing is one that has strong approval from the seniors in the St. James-Assiniboia area who have long been calling for seniors' housing in that area so that they could retire, sell their homes in St. James-Assiniboia and move into an apartment building in that area. It has the approval of the St. James Chamber of Commerce. It has the approval of the City of Winnipeg who went and did zoning changes and variances in order to approve the project, Mr. Speaker. It has very strong public support.

Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I want to know what the leader of the Opposition has against providing housing for seniors. Is she wanting to turf them out of housing like she is wanting to turf them out of personal care beds? She said, prior to the last election, she would kick 40 percent of those who are living in personal care homes out on the street because she did not believe that they ought to be in personal care horn es. That is the kind of attitude that the leader of the liberal Party has to the seniors of this province. I think that is reprehensible. Pines Project Government Position Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, the Rotary Pines project has been opposed in the past by the provincial Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) and two federal ministers of transport. It is opposed by the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, opposed by the Winnipeg International Airport since Rotary Pines will be built under an airport flight path.

April 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1281 Since Transport Canada studied this airport issue and concluded restricting night flights could cost Winnipeg 130 jobs and $38.5 million in airport revenue, and this Minister of Highways and Transportation asked the federal minister to overrule the City of Winnipeg, when did this Minister of Highways and Transportation and his government change their policy from being opposed to being in favour of the Rotary Pines project? Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, let me first of all indicate to the House here that I am pleased actually with the process as it has evolved itself, because ultimately there would be a project come forward that would have had to be dealt with along these lines. Ultimately, I think, we are all concerned about the potential economic development at the airport. When this project came forward, I then expressed concerns about the potential for the future.

We went together with the Minister of Urban Affairs, myself at that time appointed the Advisory Committee for the Protection of the Winnipeg International Airport, and they worked together. There were people on that committee from the government. There were people from the city, and residents from the area came forward with the recommendation which then was turned over to the Minister of Urban Affairs who went to the city and talked to them about the potential of how to deal with the whole problem. Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased with the way It has gone because basically this project triggered this kind of concern that has been expressed. I think through this process and Plan Winnipeg that ultimately we will be able to deal with the planning and the development in the area as it should be taking place. Mr. Martindale: Will the Minister of Highways and Transportation say why it is this government's policy to now approve the Rotary Pines project when two ministers of Transport in Ottawa were opposed due to the economic consequences and safety concerns? Mr. Drledger: Mr.

Speaker, I was trying to answer the process that has taken place, and why I raised the concern, and it has been raised and supported by my colleagues in the government of the day in terms of how we went at this thing, having the advisory committee come forward, and Winnipeg right now has to deal with it.

In our discussions with my colleagues, we decided that to go with legislation was not the right way, that we would ask Winnipeg in their planning to take this under consider ation and make provisions to control the development, especially in the northern portion of the airport so that we could have ongoing economic development at the airport. Information Request Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Does the Rotary Pines project conform to the advice that the Minister of Highways and Transportation received in the Winnipeg area airport study from CMHC and the Lewis letter, and will the minister table all of those documents? Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Hig hways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I have no problem tabling the correspondence and the process that has taken place from the time that the Pines project came forward.

As I indicated in my first statement, ultimately some project would have triggered this kind of reaction where we are looking at trying to protect the air quarters around this Winnipeg International Airport. This happens to be the Pines project that triggered the activities that have taken place, and I think because of it, we are going to have a better plan for the Winnipeg International Airport for the future and its economic development. An Honourable Member: When? Mr. Drledger: It is in the process right now.

Plan Winnipeg is dealing with the issue right now, and we are on top of it together with my colleagues. *

(1355) Aborlglnal Education federal Plannlng Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): One of the few positive intitiatives to come out of the federal government's announcement last week was the Prime Minister's commitment to increase funding for aboriginal education. The Prime Minister said that no initiative is more important than our program for aboriginal post-secondary education, and he committed an extra $320 million to these programs. My question is for the Premier. Can the Premier tell this House if he has contacted the Prime Minister and ensured that Manitoba will be receiving its fair share of this extra money?

1282 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1991 Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er): Mr. Speaker, we have indeed been in contact with the federal government. letters have been drafted. Some have been sent with respect to our concerns to maximize the availability of training funds for our aboriginal people in Manitoba. Mr. Hlckes: My second supplementary question is for the Premier.

Will the Premier assure this House that Manitoba's aboriginal population will benefit from the additional funds by using the money to reverse this government's recent cuts; for example, $1.4 million from the ACCESS and the BUNTEP programs and from other aboriginal programs? Mr. Fllmon: We have told the members of the opposition many, many times and we will repeat again that we have not cut the money that we are putting into it.

Regrettably, the federal government has withdrawn part of its funding, and we have been unable to make up for that because, in addition to that, they have cut back, for instance, on EPF transfer payments some $35 million of cash transfers to us. Despite that, we have put more money into education, more money into health, $90 million more this year, 3.5 percent increase to public school funding, 3.5 percent increase to universities, all of that with getting less in transfer payments from Ottawa.

In addition to that, we could not make up for their withdrawal of funding-- An Honourable Member: Just got another 1 .5 percent. An Honourable Member: Two percent. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: Take a look at the Estimates. I know you cannot think, but maybe you can read. Okay? Mr. Speaker, I repeat, we are not able, in addition to getting less funding from Ottawa, to also make up for their withdrawal from a variety of programs. If more money is available, we will certainly look at utilizing it where we believe it will pay dividends; that is, in an investment in the education of our aboriginal people.

Accesslblllty Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): My last supplementary question is: What commitment will this government make that aboriginal peoples have access to post-secondary education and training so that they do not continue to face a bleak future of social assistance or low-level jobs? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, as in the past, we will continue to put as much funding as we can make available to it. I repeat for the member though we cannot make up for the withdrawal of federal funding by putting more money in when we are getting less money in transfers from Ottawa.

Conawapa Dam Project Energy Projections Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro. All members of the House were very pleased to learn last week that Manitoba Hydro had joined the Power Smart program of British Columbia, thereby becoming much more aggressive in energy conservation targets for the utility, so much so that it is now debatable whether or not Manitoba will need any of the power at all generated by the Conawapa dam.

My question to the minister is: Can the minister tell us, what are Hydro's current projections, and when will we need the extra power to be generated by Conawapa? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responslble for The Manitoba Hydro Act): The projections that Manitoba Hydro has as of today are that the power will be needed by the year 2000. It is possible that it may not be needed until the year 2000, as has been indicated by Manitoba Hydro president, Bob Brennan. We expect the next projection to come out in about July when a current update will be brought forward to this House. *

(1400) Justification Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): It now seems debatable whether or not Manitoba will need the extra power when the Conawapa generating station is complete, so I would have to ask the minister then, can we justify the $6 billion expenditure on the basis of the Ontario sale alone if Manitobans do not need the extra power generated? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): It is still our best

April 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1283 projection, our best advice, that the power from Conawapa will be needed by Manitoba consumers by the year 2001. It is on that basis that we are going forward with the construction of the Conawapa dam. Mr. Carr: Since the minister cannot give us any assurances that we will need the power, is he satisfied, in his conversation with executives at Manitoba Hydro, that it is an economic model on the basis of the Ontario sale alone? Can he now give assurances to the House? Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member's question seeks an opinion and is therefore out of order. The honourable member for Crescentwood, kindly rephrase your question, please. Withdrawal Penaltles Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): With a final supplementary to the minister. Can the minister tell us what the penalties would be, given the contract with Ontario Hydro, if Manitoba Hydro would withdraw from the contract today? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr.

Speaker, I am certain the member for Crescentwood has read the agreement and the penalty for withdrawal on one basis only, and that is the environmental licence may not be issued. There is a

schedule for penalty payments. There is no clause in the agreement which permits Manitoba Hydro to escape from the contract for any other reason than for environmental reasons. CareerStart AppHcatlon Deadline Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Family Services. Unemployment among Manitoba youth was 17 .1 percent in March of this year, significantly higher than the 13.5 percent of last March, and in particular, unemployment among male youth has risen dramatically to 22.7 percent.

Today we have thousands of university and college students out of classes looking for work. Can the minister explain to the House why the CareerStart Program will not begin until May 15 this year, and not May 1, as has been the case in previous years? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we are pleased to be going ahead with a CareerStart Program again this year.

Because of the budget deliberations, the lateness of the budget and the paperwork that has to be put in place, the deadline for CareerStart applications is May 3, and the jobs that students have applied for and with the participation from the nonprofit, the business and the institutional sector, getting their applications in and matching students up, it will be slightly later. We are pleased to continue with this partnership approach with the community, and we will be proceeding with that program in the next few weeks. Mr.

Leonard Evans: I am still not sure why the government is half a month late this year compared to other years. STEP Program Reduction Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, last week I asked the Minister of Family Services for information about the STEP program; that is, the Student Temporary Employment Program in the Civil Service. Can the minister now tell this House to what extent the STEP program has been cut back this year? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I indicated to the honourable member last week that we would be continuing with the STEP program. That is still in process.

At this point, I do not have final figures for him. As I indicated last week, I will get him some information in the not too distant future. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, I thank the minister for that information. I wonder if he could advise whether we are going to have a cutback in STEP or not. Particularly, I would like to ask the minister, when will the students be able to be hired under the STEP program? Will they have to wait until May 15, along with the CareerStart applicants? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, that program is in process now, and I believe that students will be coming on stream prior to that date.

1284 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1991 GRIP Program Review Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, farmers continue to have little to look forward to this spring outside of some rain this past weekend. As I said, the rain is all they have to look forward to, certainly not action from this government. GRIP is still the travesty that it was when it was introduced. It is unfair and inequitable from region to region, from farmer to farmer in this province. Now we see that the government has confirmed what we have said all along, that they intended to make changes to GRIP after the first year that would vastly change the benefits under the program, if indeed there were any under

section 37 of the contract, saying that 20 percent less in benefits could indeed take place next year under this program. I ask the Acting Minister of Agriculture, in view of this change that is going to undoubtedly take place in GRIP, as we have been predicting, will the Acting Minister of Agriculture get together with his colleague, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), and change the contract term from a minimum of four years to one year so farmers can once again assess the program next year without penalty when the changes are made? Hon. Ja mes Downe y (Ac ting Minis ter of Agrlculture): Mr.

Speaker, I have no difficulty in getting together with the Minister of Agriculture {Mr. Findlay), as we have done, to make some changes which have in fact been requested by the farm community. I also want to make it clear, this is the first time that any government has made a commitment to the farm commun ity of the magnitude of some $43 million in the history of this province. Deficiency Payment Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the program is a travesty. It is unfair and inequitable.

In addition to that, there is another travesty, the announcement by the federal minister just over a week ago which said that there would be no deficiency payment. I ask this Acting Minister of Agriculture why he has not made known his opposition to this program that was announced, this nondeficiency payment announcement two weeks ago, which is going to devastate farmers in Manitoba who need money desperately at this time to put the crop in? Hon. Jame s Downey (Ac ting Min ister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, again, let us be fair and be honest and open.

When you look at the past years' support of the farm community by the federal gove rnment , one cannot und erestim ate the commitment of the federal government to the agriculture community. I am aware of the fact that currently there have been some concerns about a lack of cash flow in the farm community, but let me assure him that I am sure we were listened to, my colleague, I and the government, when we requested the continuation of an interest-free cash advance program to continue on this year and as well, an adjustment to the GRIP fall premium payment period. Agriculture Industry Financial Assistance Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphi n): Mr. Speaker, farmers are getting frustrated with this government and the federal government. There is no action. I ask this minister: Will he now stand up and outline to this Legislature and to the farmers of Manitoba specifically what action he intends to take to bring forward this terrible travesty that is being perpetuated on the farmers of Manitoba who will not have any cash and who will not even see their way through the crop year, never mind getting the crop in unless they have some cash at this time, a cash injection? What action will he take? Hon.

James Downey (Ac ting Minis ter of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, there is no question that this government realizes and appreciates the difficulty that the farm communities have been facing. That is why there was a commitment of the magnitude made by this government of some $43 million in the GRIP program, plus the continuation of the removal of the education taxes off the farm land, something that his government took a long time to see the need for and then did it in a poor and ill-advised manner. Dept. of Highways and Transportation Ukrainian language Services Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan Riv er): Mr.

Speaker, all parties, in the last couple of weeks, paid tribute to Ukrainians coming to Canada and recognized this is the centennial year of Ukrainians and what they have contributed.

April 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1285 My question is to the Minister of Highways and Transportation. We have services provided in many languages for immig rants. In fact, driver licences are available in 20 different languages in Manitoba. However, they are not available in the Ukrainian language. Can the minister tell us when this service will be corrected and provided for Ukrainian people as well? Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I will take that under advisement. • {1410) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, because I am of Ukrainian descent, I would appreciate that being looked at very soon. Aborlglnal language Services Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): However, there is another group of people who do not have services in their language. Can the minister tell us why aboriginal people cannot get driver licence testing in this language and whether he is prepared also to look at that matter? Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I will take that under advisement as well. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, aboriginal people are being treated very shabbily in driver licence offices, and many are driving without licences because they cannot be tested. How soon can aboriginal people expect to have driver tests available in their language as well as Ukrainian people? Mr. Drledger: Mr. Speaker, I take great exception to the comment made by the member that the Native people are treated shabb il y. I will tell you something- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Drledger: Mr.

Speaker, I and my staff take great pride in trying to give a good service to the people of Manitoba wherever we provide a service to them. If the member has any cases to take and substantiate that kind of a statement, I want to know about it. I want to make sure that I have proof when I deal with those issues. Elder Abuse leglslatlon Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, this government has been promising since its first throne speech in 1988 to take action to protect seniors. Three years ago, we had documented evidence of the physical, mental and financial abuse of seniors.

Today, we have more documentation and more problems for seniors but still no action. We have seen how this government treats seniors with a Seniors Directorate that is a mere exercise in public relations . Will the Minister responsible for Seniors please tell this House when we can expect him to table the long-promised legislation for the protection of seniors? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister responslble for Seniors): Mr.

Speaker, firstofall, the initiative of this particular government in '89 to go with the public hearings to produce and verify about the senior abuse, and the Department of Family Services, in 1990, have provided $45,000 towards a resource centre and in their budget for '91-92 have provided $60,000. In addition to that, we also have a campaign where we are going through to establish the financial abuse program with the federal government to the tune of $100,000. Pines Project Funding Withdrawal Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister responsible for Seniors speak to the Housing minister today to recall the grant to his Tory developer friends and give it instead to the seniors in need of financial assistance, the ones who will not even be able to buy basic necessities? Hon. Jim Ernst (Mi nis ter of Housing): Mr. Speaker, firstly let me say that I reject totally the

preamble from the member for St. Boniface. When people like Steve Patrick, former MLA, Rotarian in Assiniboia, is accused of being a Tory developer's friend, Mr. Speaker, I think the member for St. Boniface ought to think twice. When Neil Mackay, a very prominent Winnipeg liberal lawyer, Rotarian in Assiniboia, is called into question, when Reg Edwards, a former Deputy Minister of Health in this province, is called into question as some kind of back-room deal, the liberals are out of line totally in this issue.

1286 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1991 Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolltlcal Statements Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Point Douglas have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave? Agreed. Mr. Hlckes: Mr. Speaker, we just heard some rhetoric and some speeches, and I would like to commend an aboriginal all-Native hockey school that has been established.

We know that the youth from some remote communities in the North-you could take Shamattawa, Tadoule Lake and various remote communitie s-w ho come out to play junior hockey-we just had a nonpolitical statement last week of the member for Winkler and there were a couple of aboriginal players on that team. What happens is that we can go right back into history and a lot of the aboriginal people who come out from these remote communities, they come into culture shock.

What happens is a lot of the talent and potential for these youths is denied because there is no regular training or exposure for these aboriginal youths. One example-w e could go back to the later years -was a player by the name of Fred Saskamoose whom I had the pleasure of playing against when I was playing for The Pas Huskies. He was a treaty aboriginal who came out and played for the Chicago Blackhawks for a while, but he was in total shock and amazed by the big cities, and obviously he did not last very long.

Now there is a school, an all-aboriginal hockey school that will be operating this summer for the first time ever, and it will be run by Ted Nolan, and it is called Ted Nolan Anishinabe Hockey School. It will bring in our youth from northern Manitoba, from Alberta, from Saskatchewan, from all over Canada. It will work with the families and the young players, and they will learn proper weightlifting techniques, proper diets and family counselling. I think this is a great step for the future of our aboriginal athletes. I would like to recognize that today.

Also, we know in Winnipeg, there is a famous aboriginal hockey player. His name is Jim Neilsen. He played 18 years as a pro hockey player. He played with the New York Rangers and then with the Edmonton Oilers. He accomplished quite a bit for us aboriginal people. Hopefully, that hockey school will expand into Manitoba, so I would just like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Ted Nolan Anishinabe Hockey School. *** Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask for leave to make a nonpolitical statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wellington have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Ms. Barrett: I would like the House to recognize and join with me in congratulating Vic Neufeld who was a Winnipegger who has just won the Canadian Association of Social Workers Distinguished Service Award for Manitoba. As a social worker myself, I feel very proud that Mr. Neufeld is a member of this profession and that he has served for 16 years with the Child Guidance Clinic of the Winnipeg School Division.

I think it says positive things about us as a province and our ability to provide service to our members, our residents. As well, it states positive things about the Child Guidance Clinic, an organization that has done excellent work over the years and is in some danger of not being able to continue to provide the type of service that it has in the past. So I think it is important, at this point, that we recognize the services of Mr.

Neufeld and congratulate him on a personal level for the award and for the positive influence and the positive things that it has to say about Manitoba, the Child Guidance Clinic of Winnipeg. Thank you. *** Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selki rk): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Selkirk have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Agreed. Mr. Dewar: Recently, the Red River Wave Juvenile Female Volleyball Club beat Club West two matches to one to capture the provincial title.

The Wave, No. 1 ranked juvenile female team in the province, beat the second ranked team, Club West,

April 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1287 in straight sets in the first match held at Mennonite Brethren Bible College. Dana lwanoczko was named the tournament's most valuable player as she notched 21 kills and four stuffed blocks. T eammates Tracy Forbes, Randene Prawdzik and Kelly Shields were also named to the all-star team. The Wave will now represent Manitoba at the national championships during May 10 to May 12 at St. John's, Newfoundland. I know that this House will join me in congratulating this team and wishing it the best of luck in its future competition. Thank you. *** Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): May I have leave, Mr. Speaker, to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Thompson have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Agreed. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I thank the members of the House for granting leave.

On Friday we paid tribute to the Day of Mourning and today we have the 1 Oth Annual Health and Safety Conference, which is being offered by the Manitoba Federation of Labour, which is in keeping with the intent of, I believe, everyone, whether it be in terms of labour or management, and certainly all members of this House, for working toward improved health and safety in the workplace. In fact, as I indicated, this is the 1 Oth annual conference, and I do want to note that this conference has been dedicated to a former member of this House that many members will remember well, Jay Cowan.

In fact, he has been given this unusual honour, given his role in establishing the first conferences for the Health and Safety Conference with the Manitoba Federation of Labour. So I would like to, I am sure, pass on the hopes of all members of this House that these types of conferences which bring together many working people, indeed as well many people from business, as well, will continue in the future and that perhaps at some time in the not too distant future we may end up in the situation, Mr. Speaker, where we have a significant reduction of injuries, illnesses and deaths in the workplace. Thank you. *

(1420) ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before I move the motion to go into Committees of Supply, I would like to indicate that there has been an agreement reached that will not vary the order; it is just that within Culture, Heritage and Citizenship we will deal with Votes 24, 25 and 26 this afternoon, and then revert to Votes 21, 22 and 23 this evening. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable Government House Leader. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for Executive Council. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP Mr.

Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Does the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship have an opening statement? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Yes, I do, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, and I have copies for the opposition critics. If I can just indicate that the page is making another copy, if the two of you just want to use that one for the moment, it should be here in just a few seconds.

1288 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1991 Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am pleased to introduce my department's Estimates for the 1991-92 fiscal year and have the opportunity to report to the committee on the substantial progress my department has achieved since I introduced my department's Estimates last year. On February 5, 1991, Premier Filmon announced the restructuring and renaming of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation to Culture, Herit age and Citizenship.

The restructured department creates a new Citizenship Division that wil l significantly enhance im migration and integration services to new Canadians by enabling easier access to government programs and services. The new division comprises the Immigration and Settlement Services Branch, which was formerly part of Manitoba Family Services, and the Immigrant and Foreign Credentials Accreditation Review as well as the Adult English as a Second Language Branch, which were transferred from Manitoba Education and Training.

I am pleased to be able to confirm that our governmen t's commitment to adult ESL programming will be enhanced, during this budget year, by an increase of more than 20 percent over 1989-90 funding levels. As well, responsibility has been established for the development of a focus on business immigration with a view to enhancing results in attracting business to locate in Manitoba. I believe the consolidation of these activities under one minister, along with the Manitoba lntercultural Council and the Multiculturalism Secretariat, will result in improved co-ordination of services to Manitobans.

I would like to note that, this year, support is again being provided to the Manitoba lntercultural Council to assist it to host its biennial assembly. I am also pleased to note my department's commitment to the elimination of racism. As a part of a co-operative project with the Manitoba Federation of Labour, my department seconded a senior analyst to a two-year project to eliminate racism in the workplace. The development of an antiracism training course, which is innovative in its approach, design and delivery, is nearing completion and will be launched as a pilot project in my department.

The Multiculturalism Secretariat has been opened, as a result of the multiculturalism policy, to ensure co-ordination and co-operation among all departments of government regarding multicultural issues and initiatives, and to foster partnerships with the community to achieve our shared goals. Reflecting our commitment to a multicultural act, we are developing a white paper for distribution to and feedback from Manitobans. This white paper will set out an overall multicultural strategy for Manitoba. We expect to release the white paper this summer.

In the 1989-90 Estimates, the department established funding for the renewal of the province's major cultural facilities, the majority of which are over 20 years old now and, in some cases, are in need of critical repairs. •

(1440) Funding will continue to be provided in 1991-92 for this purpose, including significant commitments to the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature and the Manitoba Centen nial Centre Corporation. Refurbishment is expected to strengthen the ability of both of these facilities to house visiting attractions and thereby enhance their revenue base. In particular, preliminary engineering studies on the concert hall have identified serious problems with the exterior cladding. Initial projections are that the cost of necessary repairs could reach $5 million.

I am pleased to indicate that we are proceeding as quickly as possible on this matter of urgent public concern as well as completing the testing on the museum and planetarium walls to ensure their safety. Funding will also be continued for another year for the Community Places Program. This program was originally announced as a four-year initiative ending in the 1990-91 fiscal year. Community Places has been an extremely popular program, providing funding to over 1,600 projects init iated by communities and organizations throughout the province during its four-year term.

In recognition of the continuing needs of facilities for upgrading in order to increase their operating efficiency and prolong their life spans, support will continue to be available for facility initiatives throughout the province. In view of the fiscal challenge facing the province at this time, it has not been possible to allocate more funding for the arts this year. However, my department is continuing to address the recommendations contained in the Arts Policy Review, the DeFehr Report. Specifically, we are in

April 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1289 active, ongoing negotiations with the Manitoba Arts Council, with the intention of clarifying our roles and responsibilities. We consider these deliberations with the arts council and other organizations to be the necessary ground work to the subsequent formation of an arts branch and the formulation of an arts act.

Our government will continue to support the province's cultural industries as a means to em ploy Manitobans and portray our accomplishments to others. last year, Manitoba's five-year federal-provincial agreement on cultural industries came to an end. The programs initiated under the agreement have been a resounding success, resulting in dramatic growth in the film, publishing and sound recording industries. In aggregate, these industries now provide more than 200 person years of employment annually.

To Film Manitoba, there have been a number of success stories, amongst them the films Bordertown Cafe, a $3 million feature currently in production, and The last Winter, which was one of the top English Canadian films in 1990. In the area of publishing, sales by Manitoba publishing houses now total some $2 mil lion annually, double four years ago. In the area of sound recording, Manitoba artists continue to be recognized nationally, with children's performer Bob King and the Manitoba Chamber Orchestra having been nomin ated for Juno awards this past year.

Upon the expiration of the agreement, the federal government reduced its funding to one-half the former level. I am happy to say that, for 1991-92, the province will continue to maintain its funding at the same level as in previous years. Federal funding will also continue at last year's level. I am hopeful that the federal government will sustain this funding in future years. As indicated in last year's throne speech, our government is committed to initiatives to improve the literacy of our citizens. In my department, this commitment is evidenced by our strong support for libraries.

In the fall, I indicated that the Pu blic libraries Advisory Board had just completed its Discussion Paper on library Development in the province. I subsequently released this report for comment by interested organizations and individuals. The consultation process has now concluded, and I am expecting to receive the board's recommendations this fall. I am most hopeful that this process will lead to strengthen support for library services. I am pleased to advise this committee that the department will be able to continue to maintain the existing formula for support to rural libraries for 1991-92.

Based on the projected level of funding for libraries by municipalities throughout the province, provincial funding is expected to increase by some $45,000 over last year. As well, I am pleased to note that plans to move our provincial library Services branch to Brandon are on track. This move is scheduled for this fall. Tenders were recently let for a new building to be constructed in Brandon, and the contract will be awarded shortly. In our province with its sparse population in its more remote regions, the provision of library Services is particularly difficult.

We must search for innovative ways to bring these services to local people, particularly in those areas not served by local governments. To this end, last year my department commenced a two-year pilot project, in co-operation with the Frontier School Division and local organizations, to establish a public library at Norway House. Funding for this project is being continued in 1991-92. I am also pleased to say that the province has maintained its share of the operating cost of the city's library system at last year's level of 11 percent of budget.

Based on figures provided by the city, this will result in a provincial grant of $1.95 million, an increase of $115,000 over last year. As well, the legislative library continued to promote the sharing of printed materials with libraries across Manitoba and Canada. This year, the library instituted a broader depository program to provide decentralized access to government publications through a network of city and rural libraries. It is now five years since The Heritage Resources Act was proclaimed in 1986.

With an increase of heritage awareness and community involvement, the Historic Resources branch is now more able to focus its efforts on its core services and responsibilities as outlined in the act. last year, a significant concern discussed in the Estimates review was the issue of assistance for building owners, particularly in the Exchange District of the city of Winnipeg. Over the last five

12 90 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA April 29, 19 91 years, my department has provided assistance for the renovation of designated heritage buildings throughout the province. During this period, provincial grants in the amount of $2.1 million have been provided through this program with over $1 million being provided to the owners of buildings located in the city of Winnipeg. I am pleased to advise this committee that funding for this program is being continued for 1991-92 at its traditional level of $400,000 per year.

Manitoba continues to be a leader in the protection of our archival heritage, with one of the most fully developed conservation programs in Canada. This expertise is well recognized, and I am proud to note that governments and organizations have continued to seek the advice of our Archives staff in setting up their own programs. This year, the Provincial Archives will begin a multiyear survey of its holdings to establish conservation priorities. Our government believes that leisure activities are vital to the physical and mental well-being of all Manitobans.

It is committed to promoting increased awareness of the benefits of participating in these activit ies. Our governmen t recognize s that recreation is an important component of an overall strategy for the renewal of our rural and northern communities. As indicated in the throne speech, our government will introduce a policy on recreation whic h recognizes partnerships with local government in the provision of recreational opportunities, which enhance healthy lifestyles and strengthen communities.

Working together with the Department of Rural Development, my department has developed a proposal for a new funding model for the recreation district program, which we believe responds to the concerns expressed by municipalities for increased flexibility. We are now ready to discuss this with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities. Meetings are being arranged to take place in the next few weeks. Nowhere is the value of recreation activities to our citizens better recognized than in northern communities.

In April of 1990, our department, in co-operation with the Departments of Northern Affairs and Education, launched a two- year pilot program to train recreation directors for northern communities. Through this program, 23 northern residents are being trained and employed as recreation directors to serve their own communities. These recreation directors work out of such communities as Cormorant, Moose lake, Norway House, Camperville, Warbowden, Split lake band, York Factory band, Oxford House band among others. *

(1450) During the election campaign and as indicated in the last legislative session, our government promised to assist parents in protecting their children from pornographic and explicitly violent videos through the introduction of a home video classification system. I am pleased to note that this program was introduced in January of 1991. All new videotapes intended for rental or sale to the public are now required to be classified by the film classification board prior to distribution to retailers.

As well, retailers are required to sticker age-restricted videos, and it is now illegal to rent these videos to minors. New resources for this program are being provided in this year's budget, however, I anticipate that the program will be self-financing through licence fees charged to the industry. As a result of our government's renewed commitment to the French language Services policy, as announced by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in November of 1989, the response from the public for services in French have resulted in increased demands on translation services.

Accordingly, additional resources are being provided for 1991-92 for my department's Translation Services branch to enable it to better assist departments to communicate with their client populations in the language of their choice. As indicated in the Speech from the Throne and the Budget Address, our government is committed to developing new delivery mechanisms and management approaches for government programs. Communication activities of government departments will be co-ordinated through the establishment of a communications services function in my department.

This will maintain service to departments and the public at large while resulting in significant savings. Undoubtedly, this has been the most difficult budget exercise conducted by my department and by government as a whole in many years. The choices have been difficult but necessary. We have

April 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1291 endeavoured to sustain and, in some cases, increase funding for those areas where we believe maximum impact can be obtained. In particular, we have endeavoured to sustain the cornerstone of community organizations across the province, organizations such as libraries, community arts councils, community museums and recreation districts that are vital to the everyday quality of life in their communities. As ind icated in the thr one speech, our government has endeavoured to reduce executive and administrative overhead to the greatest extent possible.

As well, a concerted attempt was made to reduce administrative overhead in provincial agencies. In preparing its budget, my department has reduced its budget in executive administration and finance areas by more than 20 percent. Regrettably, it has not been possible to preserve jobs for all of our staff. We are doing everything possible to reassign staff to vacancies where appropriate and to otherwise assist staff to secure other jobs.

Despite the magnitude of these reductions in administrative overhead, regrettably the resources available to the department have been insufficient to allow funding to continue to be provided to all of the community programs and organizations that have been supported in the past. Where reductions or eliminations have been made in grant assistance being provided to community organizations, these organizations were notified immediately upon release of the provincial budget to enable them to begin to adjust to lower levels of funding.

Every assistance will be provided to these organizations by our department in adjusting their plans and budgets to reflect decreases in funding. In closing, I want to express my pride in the management and staff of my department for their dedication and co-operation during this most difficult period. I am most hopeful that the measures that we are taking to preserve the core services of my department will position us well for the future. Thank you. Mr. Deputy Chairman: We thank the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship for those opening comments.

As was previously agreed in the House this afternoon, the committee will be considering Resolutions 24, 25 and 26. This evening the committee will be considering Resolutions 21 , 22 and 23. Is there agreement to consider opening statements by the critics for Citizenship this afternoon and for the remainder of the departments this evening? Is that agreed? Agreed. Does the critic for the opposition party, the honourable member for Radisson, have any opening statement? Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): Yes, I do. I would like to begin by saying how much I have enjoyed being the critic for multiculturalism.

It has been difficult, though, in separating out multiculturalism from so many of the other areas that affect the ethnocultural communities. Actually, I am thinking that the way that the department is being reorganized may make that somewhat easier, and I appreciate that you are going to bear with our party and allow us to split it up as we have in the past. One of the things that I have benefitted from is the opportunity to learn more about a number of the cultures that are a part of Manitoba.

I would like to make a few comments about how important I think it is for Manitoba that these cultures, different cultures, have support and opportunity to be continued. I think that it is not only nice that we have all these cultures and we have events like Folklorama, but I am beginning to think that it is essential for the survival of our society, and I would like to talk a little bit about that.

It has been also interesting for me to be the Environment critic at the same time as being the multicultural critic because putting the two together has really helped me develop my perception of the problems that are facing our planet. One of the things that has been so exciting and provides me with a lot of hope is learning more about the cultures that are part of Manitoba that have a different value system.

I am starting to think that multiculturalism is about having those different value systems and ways of perceiving the world become part of the mainstream culture here in Manitoba and, as I said, I think that is essential for us to move away from the individualistic, competitive, hierarchical, dominant orientation that we have in our society and try and inc orporate some of the more co-operative, collaborative values that come from some of the other cultures from different parts of the world.

On top of that, I am starting to really appreciate, then, that multiculturalism is not just having a variety of people here in Canada, but it seems to have two different parts in my mind. We are wanting to

1292 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1991 preserve the different cultures of people who are living here now, and we are also wanting to make sure that these people have access and become part of all the institutions that make up our society. I am starting to get a real picture of how those things are important to work together. I would like to talk a little bit about that. We have, in the first session, heard a lot of comments about how we cannot afford funding multicultural organizations and ethnocultural groups.

In times like we are suffering now with the recession and the tactics being taken of government cutbacks, it becomes very easy, I think, for people to think that this is an area that can go.

While we certainly have to prioritize health and education above cultural organizations, and I think that will be to the detriment of a lot of the communities that are already marginalized, one of the things that I am beginning to believe very strongly is that a lot of the ethnocultural organizations which we are funding are essential if we are going to address the other problems in multiculturalism like the problems with accreditation in the language barriers, ghettoization in the workplace, because the ethnocultural groups are what are going to allow us to make contact with those communities and for us, for government and the various community organizations, to begin to work out ways where we can have that kind of a partnership.

To me, that is one of the challenges of multiculturalism and what we are trying to do with your new area of citizenship. *

(1500) So I guess one of the points, just to reiterate, is how important it is then to have well-organized, well-developed ethnocultural organizations and to start to see that there is a difference in needs among these communities, a difference in need between communities that are very new to Manitoba like some of the southeast Asian communities, Laos, Vietnam and some of the communities that are more established in Manitoba, the Italian community, the Ukrainian community, and to realize that we are going to have to apply that principle of meeting needs based on needs in the communities and that everyone is not going to have the same kinds of services, I think, if we are going to really address the problems that are out there.

I was going to talk a little bit about some of the issues that I am becoming more familiar with, things like the ghettoization of particularly immigrant women in certain job sectors. I think that when we centralize the services for eth nocultural communities and immigrants, that we have to realize though that the problems are not centralized and they are pervasive throughout our society and throughout the province.

Hopefully, it wil l happen that staff in the Secretariat and in all the other parts of the branch, will be working with other government departments, as you have said, and with other institutions in the communities, so that we really can start dealing with some of these problems. The fact that there still are, in this day and age, newcomers who are being exploited and are working in the garment industry and as domestic workers, and they have poor wages and no benefits and intimidation is used so that they are not able to organize or better their situation on the job.

They are controlled in ways that would be surprising to a lot of people who do not have to work in those conditions and think that Canada has moved away from that. I would just like to also talk a little bit about the essential programs that there is some confusion about right now in the community. The changes that are happe ning with the restructuring of the department and cutbacks have caused a lot of confusion around the English as a Second Language programming, and I am hoping that through the next while we will be able to clarify some of that, how money has been transferred.

Obviously with Premier Filmon's statements earlier on that we want to have more immigration into Manitoba, this is not a time to be cutting back on English as a Second Language programming. I hope that you are sincere, I mean the government is sincere, when they are saying that they are going to be looking at legal action to address the decrease in transfer payments from the federal government.

There are other cuts that are not under either the secretariat or under MIC but I am thinking are more important that are going to affect a lot of these communities are the Planned Parenthood program and those kinds of programs. Maybe I will just leave it there and pass it on to my colleague from the Liberal Party. Thank you. Mr. Deputy Chairman: We thank the honourable member for Radisson for those comments.

April 29, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 93 Does the critic for the second opposition party, the honourable member for lnkster, have any opening comments? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Yes, I do. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wanted to start off as I start off on many occasions when I talk about multiculturalism and I talk about it in the context of Canada. I have always argued in the past that Canada's history is based on our aboriginals being our first, the first settlers of what we know as Canada, which were followed by the French and the English.

Canada has been built up by immigrants, different waves of immigrants to what we have today in terms of mosaic, a multicultural society. I firmly believe that Canada's future will be one of multiculturalism, that we do have something to offer people from all over the world, something uniquely Canadian. That is the difference that really sets Canada and the United States apart, is the way we feel that Canada can accommodate all cultures and heritages. In fact, that is what makes up our own culture and heritage, unlike the United States.

I was at the Guyanese function over the weekend over at the Portuguese centre and one of the questions that was asked was, what does someone from Guyana look like? Mr. Deputy Chairperson, at that point the master of ceremonies then had members from the Guyanese community in their past. We had the aboriginal, there were the Dutch, blacks from Africa, East Indian, British and Portuguese. Once you had all these people standing up on the stage, they said that is what your Guyanese people look like. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, you could do the same thing here in Canada.

You can put all different nationalitie s-a nd that is what really being Canadian is all about. I think we have to learn and appreciate that. I did want to talk a bit about in terms of some of the remarks that the minister has put on in her opening remarks.

Before I do that, I did wantto make it very clear that we in the liberal Party feel that the government is moving in the wrong direction when it comes to multiculturalism, that there have been some actions-a nd we have discussed this and debated this in the past and every so often it is important to reinforce the differences between our parties on this so very important issue.

We feel that the government is doing a disservice to the multicultural community by the way it is treating and handling the Manitoba lntercultural Council by the stripping of its powers in terms of the funding authority, by not-at least in regulation or I guess it would need an amendment in the MIC Act to give them more autonomy, in the very least, of appointing their chairperson and their executive director. So there are things in that area that we feel that the minister should be moving towards. In that respect, the Multicultural Directorate-the concept is a good one.

We believe that it has been somewhat tarnished in the manner in which it has been formed, and I plan to go into that in much more detail when we in fact have the staff present here to answer some of the comments regarding it. Immigrant credentials, the minister has made mention. I am somewhat pleased with the approach that the government is taking towards recognizing the credentials that many immigrants bring to our land. It is a waste of talent H we do not recognize what these people can do.

All of us benefit if we can somehow ensure that we have our immigrants doing what they are best able to do, and whatever we can do to further that cause, we should be moving towards. I do see that the government is moving in the right direction, generally speaking, in that area. I was disappointed with the adult ESL, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. We had the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach) who was quoted from the Free Press as saying that we have had an increase in the past couple of years in ESL, through the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs.

Mitchelson), of $200,000, while at the same time, he says that the ESL program at Red River College has been completely cut of $270,000. That is a net loss of $70,000.

I am hoping, through the Estimates process, that the minister will be able to clarify that and give us some assurances that in fact students-a nd the bottom-line is that student enrollment, the number of people who would have access to these valuable programs, if in fact it will go down as a direct result of the missing $70,000 and the lack of support from the federal government, because I know when I meet with many different organizations their primary concern is English as a Second Language.

It is very hard to compete equally if you cannot speak the language, and when we look at again multiculturalism, we are not just talking about song

1294 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1991 and dance, we are talking about social integration, economically, politically, socially and so forth. Without English, we are not allowing them to integrate. So I would have preferred to have seen a stronger commitment and I will wait for the minister to try and alleviate some of the concerns that we do have in regard to ESL. In terms of the business immigration, there are many business opportunities here in Manitoba. I think it is a positive in the sense that we are opening up our borders to more immigrants who will bring business to Manitoba.

I think it is equally important that we fight for the compassionate reasons as to why we should have more immigrants here in Manitoba. I do not believe a month goes by where I do not hear from a constituent of mine who wants morn or dad or a sister or a brother to come and join them here in Canada, and we have to keep that in mind and not let the economic dollar be our only priority when looking at immigrants, that we should be considering all immigrants. *

(1510) The minister has talked about a Multicultural Act, I believe, last year at this time-I should say not last year, at the last Estimates. I expressed our concerns in that the Multicultural Act is something that we would support wholeheartedly. We would have liked to see the government move faster on it. They made a commitment, last May I believe it was, in the throne speech. One would have anticipated something, and I can understand that it takes time, but in all fairness, the minister has had a full year now to deal with it.

I have to assu me that there were some discussions prior to it entering into the throne speech of May last year. So it is a bit disappointing in the sense that we are not seeing anything more concrete. I know she did say that we are expecting the white paper during the summer and, all things going well, I would imagine that will likely be out by no later that mid-August. let us hope anyway; then she has seven months to really get the act in shape. I trust, Mr.

Deputy Chairman, that if that is in fact what the government's agenda is, not to go ahead with the Multicultural Act in this session, that it will be a much higher priority for the government for the up and corning session. I would also suggest that I would be most interested in assisting in any manner in which I can to ensure that the act is a first-class piece of legislation. I know we do have what I like to think of as a, not completely apolitical, but we do have a committee that does look after cultural and heritage things. If I can be of some service, I would be more than happy to offer that.

The minister talked about the elimination of racism. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Manitoba lntercultural Council just last year had brought forward a well-detailed document in terms of cornbatting racism in Manitoba. There are some things in there thatthe minister, I believe, could have acted on in a much quicker fashion. It is not like we are saying, here is the report, act now; we want this report implemented in the next six months. There are things, positive things, that the minister could have done that would be a positive gesture. I look at 1.(

b) which is on page 35 of the report where it is suggesting that the government of Manitoba provide a one-day cultural sensitization workshop to all members of the legislature of the Province of Manitoba, school trustees and city councillors. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would suggest that we should be looking at that particular resolution and reflecting on it. That is a resolution that would not take very much to act upon, yet I believe it would send a very strong message to the community at large.

Hopefully sometime during the next recess, and I would not even object even during session, that we do see that one- day cross-cultural conference of sorts for, at the very least, MlAs. They do not have quite as much control over the school trustees and city councillors. I do not know what their time agenda or their agenda is like, but all the same it could be offered to them, but at the very least make the offer to the MlAs. I think it would go a long way in terms of a positive suggestion. On that note, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think it is best that I leave it at that.

I will reserve some further remarks on the Culture and Heritage aspect later this evening. Mr. Deputy Chairman: We thank the honourable member for those opening remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with the consideration of the next line. We will actually move down and start with line 4. Citizenship

April 29, 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 12 95 (

a) Immigration and Settlement Services:

(1) Salaries $681, 100. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff members present. The honourable minister will introduce her staff now? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. My Deputy Minister Tom Carson; Kerry O'Shaughnessy from Finance and Administration; Martin ltzkow from Immigration and Settlement; D'Arcey Phillips from ESL Pr ogramming; Je rry Kuye from Immigrant Credentials; and David La ngtry from the Multiculturalism Secretariat. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Okay. We will now deal with (

a) Immigration and Settlement Services:

(1) Salaries $681, 100-sh all this item pass? Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am wondering if the minister would be able to explain to the committee under this line, with the announcement from the federal government, that over the next number of years we are hoping to see an increase in immigration numbers. Maybe I should start off by asking what percentage of the increase has she had any negotiations with her federal counterpart in terms of Manitoba's share of the quota that is going to be increasing to what I believe is 250,000? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Indications are from the federal government that, yes, there will be about 250,000 new immigrants. We are expecting, in conversation with the federal government, that we will receive about 3 percent of those new immigrants-around 6,000. Mr. Lamoureux: Does the minister have any percentage in terms of last year, or what percentage overall we received of immigrants to Canada? Mrs. Mltchelson: Last year we received 3.1 percent. Mr. Lamoureux: Does the minister, in terms of the percentages-I have to apologize I have not worked out the percentages myself.

The percentage overall as comparison to Manitoba's population in comparison to the rest of Canada, what percentage are we at right now? Mrs. Mltchelson: I am not sure if I understand the question, but if in fact you want to know what percentage of the population of Canada Manitoba represents, it is about 4 percent. As of now, we are only getting 3 percent of the total number of immigrants. I might just add to that, I do not feel that is good enough. I guess it is important that we, as a government, initiate as quickly as possible.

I guess that is one of the responsibilities that I will have with Citizenship being part of my responsibility now and with the restructuring of a Citizenship division. We will be actively pursuing an immigration agreement with the federal government. Of course, those issues and concerns will be one of our first and foremost concerns, and one of the areas that we will want to negotiate very strongly with the federal government to ensure that we get our percentage that we believe we should be getting. If we are 4 percent of the population, we should be getting 4 percent of the new immigrants to Manitoba. Mr.

Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, at one time Manitoba used to be in and around 6 percent of the population of Canada. If we look at terms of future growth potential without immigration to this province,, Manitoba will continue to decrease in the overall population in comparison to the rest of Canada.

I do not know what discussions she has had lately with the minister but to settle for 3.1 percent last year, when we do make up 4 percent, it is only a matter of time, especially if you take into account the number of people that are leaving the province, that Manitoba population-wise will become more and more insignificant in comparison to the rest of Canada, which will make our arguments that much harder to make in future years. I am interested in knowing the percentages in the past number of years. Is this something that is more recent than late?

Have we ever received our, what I would classify, fair share of immigrants to Manitoba? •

(1520) Mrs. Mltchelson: Okay, if I can just indicate by a couple of charts that I have here and maybe you might want to seek further clarification, but Manitoba's percentage of Canada's population has decreased over a number of years too. We were, back in 1980, at about 4.3 percent of Canada's population-Manitoba. We are now about 4.1 percent in 1990. So over a 10-year period, the total numbers of people in Manitoba as a percentage of Canada's population has decreased.

12 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 91 In 1980, I guess, the percentage of immigration to Manitoba was about 5.5 percent, decreased in '81 to about 4.3 percent. There have been ups and downs, but I would say the actual decrease in the numbers of immigrants started in 1987. Since 1987 we have been receiving just over 3 percent of the total number of immigrants here in the province of Manitoba. There might have been a follow-up comment or a question that you have? Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would appreciate if I could get a copy of those two charts. It would be most beneficial.

We mentioned that this year it is 3.1 percent. Is it 6,000? Mrs. Mltchelson: 6,626. Mr. Lamoureux: That is out of the 251 or is that Mrs. Mltchelson: That is out of the projected 250,000 new immigrants. Pardon me, if I could just clarify it-220,000. Mr. Lamoureux: Given the increase, that is, in all likelihood-now I could be a bit out here-o f in and around 50 percent, 60 percent from one year to the other, because the immi gration-what did we receive last year in terms of real numbers? Mrs. Mltchelson: I think I just made a mistake on the record.

In fact, out of 220,000 immigrants who came to Canada in 1990, we received 6,626. In 1991, the expectation is that there will be 250,000 new immigrants to Canada, and out of that number, we are anticipating-of course, we will not have the final figures until the end of the year-we will get 6,842. Mr. Lamoureux: There is an increase in the number of immigrants Manitoba will be receiving over the next couple of years while, at the same time, we have not seen the increase in government spending in order to facilitate that number.

I am wondering if the minister can tell me how she would justify keeping things such as the ACCESS and so forth programs somewhat stagnant while, at the same time, we are receiving more immigrants? Mrs. Mltchelson: I might tend to disagree somewhat with: programs remaining stagnant. As a matter of fact, the NSSP program, which was the Newcomer Services Support Program which was started, I guess, in 1986, under our administration in 1989-90 was increased from $25,000 to $50,000.

The maximum dollars allowed per project under that increase went from $5,000 to $7,500, so in fact we have doubled support to the Newcomer Services Support Program under our administration. You will have to excuse me for the slowness, but in fact these are new programs that I have just inherited at the beginning of this fiscal year, so it may take me a little while to get the information that I need. The Newcomer Services Support Program provides grants to a maximum of $7,500 per project, and that goes to nonprofit organizations concerned with immigration settlement issues.

As I indicated, in 1991, 10 projects were funded for a total of $50,000, and that was an increase in the program of 50 percent. If I can indicate what this program does, it has three components. There are settlement materials provided through this program; there are community development projects. Those are applied for by the nonprofit community ethnocultural organizations; educational symposiums might be one example. Also, the third component of that program is settlement and adaptation research.

One example of that might be, the Canadian Mental Health Association has applied and received project funding to review mental health programming for new immigrants, and that is something that is brand new. They have applied, and they have received funding. Through the nonprofit organizations out there applying for grants for newcomer support services, there has been, over the last couple of years, enhancement. There are other programs that are provided through immigration and settlement, and I do not know whether the member would like me to go through all of these programs. *

(1530) Mr. Lamoureux: If the minister does have them right at hand, just the name of the program and the percentage of increase would be appreciated, percentage and the dollar value. Mrs. Mltchelson: Now, this is not a grant program, but we have Immigrant Access Services which provides cultural and linguistic

interpretation services to bridge the needs of immigrants to the services that they require. This is a service that provides consultation to service providers to enhance their cultural awareness of the services needed by newcomers to adapt to Canadian society. In 1991, the caseload statistics were that

April 29, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 97 800 people, or clients, were served through this program in languages such as Spanish, Polish, Vietnamese, Punjabi, Tagalog, Hindi, Persian, Khmer, Pushtu, Eritrean, Thai, Afrikaan, Urdu, Portugese, Chinese and Laotian. The areas of the province that are served outside the city of Winnipeg are Winkler, Morden, Gretna and The Pas, and I guess the major areas of service are finance, immigration, family, education, language, training, housing, mental health, legal, youth, health and employment.

The Imm igrant Access Services has not increased in its total amount of operating, but it is not a grant program. It is providing services. As I said, 800 clients were served. No one else in Canada provides this kind of service, so it is innovative and new, and it is something that a lot of provinces feel that we are further advanced than what they are as a result of this program. This is Access Services through the department, and I have indicated that there is not a grant dollar allocated to this.

We have also the Program Recognition which is a wage subsidy program which provides assistance to private sector businesses to employ immigrants with foreign professional or technical credentials, and also through this, financial resources are available as well to assist in the reimbursement of courses, materials and exams needed to receive accreditation. This program provides information and consultation to newcomers regarding other available employment readiness and training programs, and this program has been doubled since 1989-90. This program was first introduced in 1985. let me go back and indicate that.

There is a lot of counselling that is done, but there is now direct service to 30 to 35 new Canadians that come, and this is a program that is an excellent model. It is working very well, and those that do, after-let me say that about 2,000 to 3,000 clients receive counselling services, and out of those who are counselled-p ardon me, let me go back a little bit. It was started in 1985, and we are into our seventh cycle of this program.

Over the period of 1985 to now, between 2,000 and 3,000 clients have been provided with counselling and referral services, and out of those who met the program's eligibility criteria, 143 clients have been placed in jobs related to their former profession or trade in their own country. It has been a very successful program, and many of those who are placed tend to be able to maintain their jobs in those areas where they were accredited and have received subsidy for work experience here through this program, through the Program Recognition. We have increased the numbers.

From 1985 to 1989 there were approximately 15 people who were placed in the work force. We have increased those numbers to 30 to 35 per year now. Mr. Deputy Chairman: I would like to remind the honourable members that we are dealing with Citizenship, line (a)

(1) Salaries of the department which is $681, 100. Grants and other expenditures and other things will be dealt with further down, so if we could relate line to line-- Ms. Cerllll: I thought we were going to be dealing with the Multiculturalism Secretariat, so I am- Mr. Deputy Chairman: We will eventually. Ms. Cerllll: Yes, I know that now. I just wanted to clarify, under Program Recognition, does that program both provide an incentive to a business to hire a newcomer as well as help them go through the process of having their training and education recognized? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, yes, there is a one-year subsidy to the employer to hire someone in the profession who is related to the work that they did in the country that they came from. In fact, along with that subsidy is an educational component that is worked out with the employer and with the employees, so that while they are working through that year, while they are being subsidized and while the company is being subsidized, that person is being equipped to either go on to work in another job in that profession that they had in the country where they came from or to continue on with that employer. Ms.

Cerllll: That answers half the question. The other part of the question was, we know that one of the problems that newcomers have is of winding through the maze of organizations, professional organizations and regulations that deal with their accreditation or of having their training transferred, their certification transferred. ls that part of what this counselling does, and is there-- Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes, it is.

12 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 91 Ms. Cerllll: The other part of my question would be: Is there an outreach component to that program, or how are they working with the communities? •

(1540) Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the co-ordinator of the program works with the Core Area Initiative, Red River Commun ity College, Immig rant Women 's Employment Counselling Service, so there is the outreach in the fact that the co-ordinator from the program does work with all of these organizations to attempt to find employment. Ms. Cerllll: To attempt to find the citizens who need the em ployme nt, so it is still up to the commu nity-based organizations to identify the individuals in the community who-I am trying to address the question of outreach.

One of the problems that we have is of newcomers accessing the office. Mrs. Mltchelson: Over the years, Immig ration and Settlement Services have been broadly publicized to all of the ethnocultural organizations, and all of the ethnocultural organizations out there know what programs are provided by the department, so there is that networking, there is that outreach. The ethnocultural organizations that are responsible for newcomers from their communities that are part of that ethnocultural organization do know where to come to access this service. Ms.

Cerllll: So a newcomer, it is required or it is wise for them or it is necessary that they be part of their ethnocultural comm unity and be receiving their newsletters or be going to the meetings, so that they are going to-what I am trying to say is, the responsibilit y for the outreach is with the ethnocultural organizations. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, all of the federal agencies, all of the settlement houses, everyone knows that we have a department of Immi gration and Settlement within the provincial government.

As people arrive in Manitoba, that kind of information is provided to new imm igrants so that they know how and where to go to access the service. Ms. Cerllll: I want to go back to earlier discussion of immi gration levels and to clarify if the 6,842 imm igrants that we are going to expect in '91 for Manitoba-does that include refugees? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Ms. Cerll!I: I am understanding that our total number of refugees is likely to decline from 1,000 to-what I am aware of is between 600 and 800. Is that correct? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the feds have indicated to us that the number of refugee im migrants coming to Manitoba will decrease. Ms. Cerllll: Can you clarify both the percentage and the total number of that decrease, and how that is going to affect the amount of money that we are going to receive? Mrs. Mltchelson: I indicated a minute ago that the refugee numbers to Manitoba would decrease, and apparently they are going to decrease right across the country. Ms. Cerllll: Is the minister aware if that is a fact? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Indications are that the number of government-sponsored refugees will decrease from 1,000 to 600. That is a 40 percent decrease, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, and the adjustment assistance for those government-sponsored refugees will decrease from $6.4 million to $4.2 million. Ms. Cerllll: Can you repeat those figures again? Mrs. Mltchelson: From 1,000 down to 600 in the numbers; in dollars, $6.4 million down to $4.2 mil lion. Ms. Cerllll: Is this change in the total number of the refugees to Canada part of the federal government's policy, and is that supported by this government? Mrs. Mltchelson: Okay.

My understanding is that it is not a policy. This is based on the number of imm igrants that they believe they can process through the system and bring to Canada over the next year. My understanding is there is some backlog in processing of applications to receive refugees this year. That is a federal government responsibility. We have absolutely no say in how many refugees the federal government can bring in. They will bring in as many as they can accommodate and as many as they can process. I am told that it could change from one month to the next, or within two months there could be new numbers. Ms.

Cerllll: The Premier (Mr. Filmon) has said that he would like to change the way Manitoba deals with its immig ration and attract different categories of immi grants. I am wondering if the minister supports this change, if you are going to-having less

April 29, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 99 immigrants here, or if you are wanting or- sorry, refugees. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, when the Premier talked about changes, he was talking, first of all, about negotiating with Canada our own Immig ration Agreemen t for the province of Manitoba. Within that agreement, we would like to see Manitoba receive numbers of imm igrants proportional to the population of Canada that we have, and right now we are not receiving our fair share of immigration.

We would also like to be able to negotiate with the federal government an agreement whereby, on the business side of things, we would like to be able to match those immigrants in instances where they are coming specifically for that reason. We would like to match them with the job skills that we have a shortage of trained people, from a country that may have a certain amount of expertise in those areas.

If we could match people so that in fact if we did not have anyone here that could do the job, and we could bring people from another country that could fill in where there is a shortage in job skills here in Mani toba, we would like to see that happen, but that does not mean to say we are not going to accept those that are coming for family reunification or for other reasons. *

(1550) Ms. Cerllll: I guess I am addressing the issue of having people come here for humanitarian reasons, and I know our party is concerned about that. If we see there has been a decline, and that means we are going to be receiving less money, that means that services will be eliminated, it is going to be difficult perhaps for us to reinstate the services, so that we can again get up to the levels of accepting refugees we want in the country and in the province. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think that we have to have a good balance of immigrants coming to Canada for all different reasons.

There is certainly no ques tion in my mind that for humani tarian reasons we will still see imm igration. One of the programs that I could talk about within the department is a very unique program that we have here in Manitoba, which is called the SPAR program.

It enables the provincial and federal governmen ts and private sponsors to provide services and assistance within three categories to refugees, and those are those who, for some reason, are medically inadmissible to Canada-if they are unaccompanied minors or if they are women who are at risk in their own countries, single morns maybe with families that are at risk. We have a special program here in Manitoba. I can attempt to explain the program. The staff of Immi gration and Settlement Services play a lead role in acti ng as a broker to admit these special-needs refugees, with External Affairs.

They work with the Un ited Nations High Com missioner for Refugees. They work with Employment and Immig ration Canada. They work with private sponsors. They work with social service agencies and relevant provincial departments such as Family Services, Health, Education and Training. As I have said, we have this special relationship whereby we, as a province, have this program. The federal government pays the transportation costs once the province has agreed to admit these refugees, so it has to be agreed to by the province. These are people who are admitted to our province for humanitarian reasons.

They receive one year's financ ial supp ort throu gh the Adj ustmen t Assis tance Program , and then the provinc e assumes other settlement costs associated with helping these people to successfully settle and integrate into Manitoba society. I guess one of the real success stories of this program was the settling of 10 Polish deaf mutes her e in Mani toba. Because we had such a successful settlement of these people here, Canada has removed deafness as a medical condition for inadmissibi lity under the Immigration Act, so it has been a very positive program.

I think that we are certainly doing our share as Manitobans, through this program, to ensure that those who are somewhat disadvantaged and for humanitarian reasons-would not normally be able to immigrate to Can ada-are able to come. Ms. Cerllll: Wonderful. How much money does that program receive? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there is half a staff allocated to that program, and it is a co-ordination program.

What I have ind icated is that the federal government pays transportation costs and the province assumes other settlement costs associated with helping these people to settle into Mani toba, so they would receive money through other programs suc h as langua ge trai ning settlement, vocational rehab, et cetera. Ms. Cerllll: This is a program that is how old?

13 00 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 29, 19 91 Mrs. Mltehelson: It has been around since 19 81 . Ms. Cerllll: How many people has it serviced this last year? Mrs. Mltehelson: In 19 90-91 , 24 people were admitted through the program. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 4.(a )(1 ) Salaries. Ms. Cerllll: I wanted to stay with imm igration levels a bit longer and to get a clarification of the breakdown forthe different categories of immigrants who come to Manitoba and the numb ers, maybe for last year as well as this year. Mrs. Mltehelson: I can give you the figures for 1990 and the projected for 19 91 .

Family class in 19 90, 2, 19 0, and for '91 the projected is 2,488; refugee design ated, 19 90, 2,340, and projected for '91 is 1, 446; and independents, 2,096 for 19 90, and for 19 91 , 2,908 projected. Ms. Cerllll: Those are the only three categories? Mrs. Mltehelson: Yes. Ms. Cerllll: Where would increase in the business program be, that would be under in dependent class? Mrs. Mltehelson: Yes. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 4.(a )(1 ) Salaries. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wanted to get back in terms of the su pport that the government has been giving to the immigrants who come to Manitoba.

The point that I was attempting at getting across is that it is very competitive across Canada, as most all provinces try to provide services that will be able to retain the immigrants they do acquire, and Man itoba being included. We have in the last couple of years, and the neX1 couple of years, an increase in the number of immigrants who are coming to Canada. I think that should be reflected in the programs in that even though the minister has noted a couple of programs and spoke very highly with them, I concur with her to some part.

I am familiar with the recognition program in which we have 35 to 40, but I am also familiar with the fact that there is quite a long waiting list in order to get in there; in fact, I believe it opens in March and within a few days all of the positions are virtually filled. I am wondering if the minis ter can comment on that particular aspect. What I am trying to say, in terms of the other immigrant programs, is that it is very competitive. If Mani toba wants to retain the immigrants that we are receiving, we have to offer the services that are necessary in order for them to integrate into our Manitoba society.

We can look at examples of nur sing, engineering, accoun ting, wh ere people-a nd this is where the whole question of credentials comes in--who come to Manitoba are unable to get the job that they are looking for and go elsewhere, not only in Canada but will also go to the United States, because at least there they are in fact being recognized. There are other programs that other provinces have to offer.

So I think we have to keep on top of immigration in the province of Manitoba, and we have to take the ini tiative and come forward with new, bold programs that will ensur e that the immigrants we are receiving, that we are better equipped and better able to keep them in the province of Manitoba. * (1 600) Mrs. Mltehelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we certainly in Manitoba do value those new immigrants that we receive to our province. In fact we are one of the provinces, and very uniquely positioned, in that we have several programs that serve new imm igrants.

B.C. has absolutely no provincial program to service immigration, new immigrants to their province. Alberta has no direct service. They fund settlement agencies, and that is the only funding they provide . Saskatchewan has no programs, so in fact I think we are leading specifically in the West for programs that do serve those new immigrants that come to our province. As I have indic ated, some of them are very unique programs that are not funded anywhere else in Canada. We are ahead in some areas, and we do provide more service than many provinces do, so I think we are fairly well positioned.

I would hope when we attempt to negotiate an agreement with the federal government, because we are providing some services that they do recognize as important services, that might give us a bit of an upper hand in being able to get an agreement negotiated with the federal government. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, does the min ister want to respond to the one particular program where we have the 35-is it 35?-who are accepted every year, in terms of what type of numb ers actually apply for that program?

April 29, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 01 Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there are approximately 80 people per year on the waiting list for that program. As I indicated, we doubled the funding from $1 50,000 to $300,000 for that program, so there has been an increase. There is no in crease in the funding this year over last year, but the funding was doubled two years ago for that program. Mr. Lamoureux: Again, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, what I am trying to say-and the minis ter rightfully so has pointed out some valid comments regarding Alberta and British Columbia, but they do not encounter the same problems that we have in Manitoba in terms of if you look at the percentages that they are receiving from the overall population in Canada. I know a number of immigrants that are, in fact, moving out to the West Coast. Vancouver is a very attractive place to live for numerous reasons.

What I am attempting at saying is that we need to have programs to be able to offer to immigrants that will give them reason to have hope to remain in Manitoba. Otherwise, we could end up losing them to other provinces. (Mr.

Jack Reimer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) The budget that we have before us-and she has pointed out a couple of programs that we have seen increase, but in relative terms, in terms of real dollars it is not quite as much as one might believe, especially if you put it in comparison to, let us say if you have the ACCESS where we lose $70,000 at one point from the Red River College being closed down, to your incr ease in the NSSP from 25 to 50. In terms of real dollars to service immigrants who are coming to Mani toba, is there a plus? Are we on the plus side?

As immigrant quotas incr ease in Canada overall, we should be considering looking at this particular department and how we can best facilitate Mani toba in terms of receiving more immigrants and retaining more immigrants. I use the example of, one that comes with me on numer ous occasions is the nursing program. I realize that is more a question of credentials, but these are the things that we have to look at. At this point, I am ready to pass it along. Mrs. Mltchelson: Can I just make a comment? Mr.

Acting Chairperson, I guess you have made some commen ts and some very, I su ppose, vali d observations about the value of new immigrants and the support for them. I guess this is a year where we would have loved to have done a lot more in a lot of areas. I know in the citizenship area, there were no reductions. There may not have been in creases in all instanc es, but there were not reductions, and I think that bodes well for programs. You know, the only areas that got major increases were Health, Family Services and Education.

A lot of the other departments, at this point in time, and services-you know, if we were able to maintain the status quo when we had a zero percent incr ease in revenues in the province, I think, it ind icates a commitment by government, but I think a greater indication of commitment is just to look at what has happened with the restructuring of the department.

Now, within the Department of Culture, Heritage and Ci tizenship, we have Imm ig ration and Settleme nt; we have ESL program ming for Winnipeg School Division No. 1 ; we have a bit of money to take a look at business immigration and how we can attract more business to Manitoba; we have immigrant credentials now in the department; we have MIC responsible to the same min ister and the Multiculturalism Secretariat.

I believe that is an in dication that we as a government and I as mini ster, over a period of the next year, are going to have to try to pull together the services that are provided to new immigrants in the province of Manitoba, see if we cannot develop a way whereby we can get an agreement with the federal government, look at the services that have been provided in different departments of the government, amalgamate that into some order, I suppose, so that in fact we can assess what the needs are of the community and try to work toward a better provision of services to new immigrants.

I think it is a step in the right direction. I look forward to having all of these services amalgamated within our department, so that in fact we can move ahead with addressing some of the real issues and the real concerns that are there with in tegration, settlement and job access within our Manitoba community. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Reimer): Item 4.(a )(1 ) Salaries, $681 , 10 0-p ass ; 4. (a )

(2) Other Expenditures, $1 11 ,400-sh all the item pass? Ms. Cerllll: I guess I am trying to still get a handle on the variety of services that are provided, that have been transferred in to this section, and I have some questions related to the Imm igrant Access

13 02 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB l Y OF MAN ITOBA April 29, 19 91 centre. I would just like to clarify the services that are being provided currently through the Immi grant Access centre and to clarify if now, I am assumi ng, that organization will come under this branch as well. Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Imm igrant Access Service does fall un der my de partment now. It was established in 19 85, within the Immi gration and Settlement Services branch, to bridge the barriers that new immigrants encounter in accessing various health, employment, social, education, language, financial and legal services.

It provides information, needs assessment, resource identification and referral to clients in their own language. The service provides five Access workers who represent various language groups including Vietnamese, Chinese, Laotian, Spanish, Polish and Punjabi. The Imm igrant Access Service works with services to help them become more informed and sensitive to immigrant needs and cross-cultural service issues. * (1 61 0) Ms. Cerllll: Can you clarify which communities have representation and an Access worker? Mrs. Mltchelson: Vietnamese, Chinese, Laotian, Spanish, Polish and Punjabi . Ms.

Cerllll: Will you repeat those, please? Mrs. Mltchelson: Vietnamese, Chinese, Laotian, Spanish, Polish and Punjabi . Ms. Cer llll: When wer e these communi ties identified, and how was that done? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, when the program was put together, these communities were identified as the communi ties requiring the largest amount of service. Ms. Cerllll: So the same communities have had a worker throughout the duration of the program? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Ms.

Cerllll: Has there been any research to see if there are other communities that require service, or how are the other ethnic communi ties serviced? Mrs. Mltchelson: Okay. It is my under standing that there is a pool of trained workers from other commun ities, through commun ity organizations, who are called in on a volunteer basis to assist with other communi ties that need help. Ms. Cerllll: Are these workers responsible only to the community that they represent, or are they supposed to work throughout all the communities? Mrs. Mltchelson: Absolut ely not.

They are cross-cultural, and not one worker works specifically with one commu ni ty, but they work with all communities. Ms. Cerllll: Do you have any reports that document that that is what is happening, that in fact there is a cross-cultural aspect to the centre and that a variety of communities are being serviced? (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Chairman, in the Chair) Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, six years ago, when these people were hired, they were part of the Refugee Community Training Program under the Core Area In itiative, which was a cross-cultural training pro gram, and people were hired from this program. Ms. Cerllll: My question was, has there been any documentation or is there a report? I am certain that the organization has to submit annual reports and report on the number of communi ties that are receiving services. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I am under the understanding that there is a perception out there within some of the communi ties that in fact there might be only certain commun ities that are served through the Immi grant Access Service. There has been an internal review conducted just in 19 91 to assess the operations and the service model. That review has yet-g iven that I have just accepted or received responsibility for this area, I have not been presented with that internal review.

I will be meeting with staff and be briefed on that in very short order, probably once the Estimates are through, and then we will be dealing with that. I guess that is all I can say at this moment that there has been an internal review, and there is a perception out there in the community that there are some communities that are being served over and above others. I think that kind of information, I will have to sit down and be briefed by staff within the department and determine where we move from here. Ms.

Cerllll: Seeing as how the staff are with us, I wonder if we could have an explanation of some of the recommen dations that were in the review-or if there are the staff here.

April 29, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 13 03 Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, yes, there is one staff member here, but I guess I would like to see the review myself. I have not personally seen it. I would like to see it, review the recommendations, and act on those recommendations accordingly. Anything that is done or anything that is changed will obviously be public information. It was an internal review and it is a working review for the department with the minister. Ms. Cerllll: Can we have some general comments of what the review found? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I believe as the mi nis ter responsible, I am to answer questions in the Estimates process; normally staff do not answer questions, it is the minister. In fact, if I have not seen that review, it is very difficult for me to try to explain to you what might have been in that review and what recommendations were made, and as a further step how I am going to act on them . Quite frankly, as I said, this is a new responsibility for me. I have not had Immigration and Settlement in my department or under my responsibility before.

I will take quite seriously reviewing all of the activities that have been going on in all of the areas that I will now receive responsibility for. We will be co-ordinating a division of Citizenship within my department to deal with all citizenship issues. In fact, we will be reviewing all aspects of everything that I will have responsibility for. Ms. Cerllll: As a point of clarification, in Estimates in the last session, particularly in the Department of Environment, it was common that staff would answer questions. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess I can take a break.

Never, never in the past has staff answered any questions in the Estimates process. I would seek the advice of some of those that have been In the legislature a little bit longer than I have, but whenever I was part of an Estimates process-I know that as critic in opposition we asked questions of the minis ters, and the minis ters answered the questions. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Jus t for a poin t of clarification, to the honourable member, it is done during some committee procedures, but not during Estimates. I believe that is what you are mistaking it for. Ms. Cerllll: Okay. Mr. De puty Chairman: Item

(2) Other Expenditures, $1 11 ,400- Ms. Cerllll: Can I request that we take a short break, please. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Move we take a five-min ute recess? Agreed? Agreed. *** The committee took recess at 4:1 9 p.m . After Recess The committee resumed at 4:29 p.m. Mr. Depu ty Chairman : Order, plea se . The committee is now dealing with item 4.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures $1 11 ,400. Shall the item pass? Ms. Cerllll: I want to pick up where we left off with regard to looking at the development of the program offered by the Imm igrant Access centre. I am wondering if there has been research that is going to look at the demographics of the imm igrant population coming in to Mani toba. Maybe we can start there. Jus t to clarify, wha t ar e t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-32a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 32a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bc8919e91f74ab95bde9034d9cc2e025e8e43fa9

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