VOL. 2 PRELIMINJI_RY UNEDITED TR.l\.KSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMEL~ FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 10, 1980 NO. 76

. I December 9, 1980 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Tape No. 2800 DYl - 1 Order, please~ STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Trans- portation and Communications. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. C. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, over the past several rnonths,there have been statements made, both within this House and outside, that the Government of Newfoundland has not requested the federal government to assist in various highway projects.

The impression being created is that the federal covernrnent has funds available for such projects and is only waiting for Newfoundland to make a request. The puzp:lse of this statarent, whid1, cy the way, is not very lang, is to clearly show that gove:rnrrent has consistently and repeatedly requested federal funding for a large number of high priority highway projects over the past several years and, while some projects have bee~ jointly financed, a great many have not yet been accepted by the federal government.

In the highways sector, there are two main federal departments involved, the Department of Regional Economic Ex~ansion and the Ministry of Transport. At present, the funding available under existing agreements with both of these departments has been virtually used up and there will be very little funding available for highway projects next year unless new agreements are signed almc.st immediately. 748-=1

December 10, 1980 Tape ~o. 2800 DW - 2 M._~. C. BRETT: There are four main agreements which would need to be signed to cover the majority of high- way projects which have been submitted. These are: (

a) A new Trans-Canada Highway Agreement with the Ministry of Transport; (

b) A new- High•..vays Subsidiary Agreement with DREE which would include funds for a Trans-Labrador High- way as well as various other highway p~ojects throughout the Province; (

c) A Coastal Labrador Subsidiary Agreement with DREE tvhich would include the Straits Road, or the Southern Labrador Road; and (

d) An Industrial Develop- ment Subsidiary Agreement with DREE which would include a number of industrial access roads. Attached to this statement is a listing of some of the main representations made to i the federal government over the past years. It is import- ant for hon. members to note that this list is not exhaustive but is only i~lustrative of the many representations we have made. It is also important to note that in addition to the foi~al representations there have been numerous meetings with the federal government, both at the ministerial level and at : I J the officials level, ' to discuss various highway projects 1 throughout the entire Province. In

summary, therefore, hon. members should note that:

(1) Government has consistently ·j j and repeatedly made representations to the federal govern- rnent for a large number of priority highway proj_ects over the last seYeral years;

(2) Some of these representations 'I i have resulted in federal-provincial agreements with either the Department of Regional Economic Expansion or the Ministry of Transport;

(3) The projects covered by these agreements have now been virtually completed and, unless new agreements are signed almost immediately, there will be hardly any cost sharing aqreements in effect for next year ·which will res..llt in a drastic reduction in highway construction;

(4) Discus- 7491.

- - .;.....l__ ______ ___.__ __ ~--- _ .. ---"'-~\ool.oo·-· Deceltlber 10, 1980 'rape No . 2800 DW - 3 !-ffi . C. BRETT : sions are currently underway at both ~he mir.isterial and senior pfficials level in an attempt to reach new agreements for a continuation of work on improving the Tran s-Cana da Highw~y and to initiate work on various other vi tal high1.,.ay projects throughout the P!'ovince . In many cases, these discussions have been ongoing for several ye ars t.,rith little or no success; and

(5) Government will continue to work st.renously toward achieving agree.'llen t for a ne•,.,. Trans - Canada Highway Agree ­ ment and for a new subsidiary agreements with DREE for high priority highway proje:::ts . The ·., 71.. 95

-----~ December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2801 EL - 1 C. BRETT: final decision on these matters rests with the Federal Government, not with the Province. All we can do is present well-planned and logical projects for funding. We can only hope that the representatives of Newfoundland in the Federal Government will strive to ensure that this Province is treated equitably and that new agreements will be forthcoming in the very near future. We have not attached the corr­ espondance, just the listing and the dates of correspondance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~ffi. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker. I{R. SPE~JrnR (Simms) : MR.

BENNETT : The hon. member for St. Barbe. Thank you,Mr. Speaker. Just a few bri~f words, Mr. Speak~r. It seems to me that there is ~errible amount of emphasis 21aced on federal funding for highway construction generally in the Province. Only yes- terday I asked the minister questions related to items which are-totally and entirely provincial responsibilities, and hopefully,even if DREE never does come down with · any more ·funding, I hope that the minister can see fit to carry on with the road construction by hook or by crook. Now, Mr.

Speaker, where there is smoke there is fire,and if there are rumblings about the lateness of the minister getting his priorities established with Ottawa, if there are rumblings surely there is a clap of thunder there somewhere and I am wondering why these rumblings.

In the last ten or fifteen or so years,! under­ stand DREE dollars in excess of a half a billion dollars, primarily related to transportation, not necessarily entirely but in the order of a half a billion dollars has been spent by DREE in the Province and as we go along probably the minister might very well be able to compare 9rovincial spending as it relates to DREE spending. Now if the minister finds it so difficult in getting co-operation from Ottawa and 74qR

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2801 EL - 2 MR. BENNETT: DREE,I am wondering if there is any way, Mr. Speaker, that the minister in his wisdom ~an communicate with other Provinces across Canada and see if indeed they are having the same treatment from Ottawa and if they are having the sarne ·treatment,then,in my opinion, we have a legitimate gripe that we can go to Ottawa and 'sug­ gest that we are being discriminated against,whic~ ~t this time I doubt ve~- much if we are being discriminated against and I question, I really do question, I wonder, Mr.

Speaker like the minister is suggesting that they have been contin­ ualJy going to Ottawa looking for the co-operation and sup­ port and having their priorities established, and I ~~ wond­ ering, Mr. Speaker, what the priorities are and indeed how long since these priorities have been placed on the table in Ottawa and to the minister concerned up there. In my opinion, there has been very little money spent by ~~e Province in relation to what has been spent by DREE funding 1so as we go along, probably, Mr. Speaker, we will have more discussion. Thank you. Mr. Speaker (Simms): MR.

HISCOCK: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. member for Eagle River. My question, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Justice CG. Ottenheimer) concerning a programme, the 1975 'gear replacement programme where gear was confiscated in this Province and put in storage. Cases have still not been solved and in my 74q7

December 10,1980 Tape No. 2802 AH-l MR •. HISCOCK: district,in Forteau,for example, ail this fishing gear is in the basement, stored in the basement of the RCMP detachment. Could the minister inform this House what is going to be happening with those cases? Several million dollars are involved and it is all throughout the . Province. What is going to be happening? Are we ·going to be dropping those cases? Are we going to be prosecuting or what action is the Minister of Justice taking? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, with relation to this there was a prosecution .and indeed a conviction against a company a few months ago- two or three, I cannot be exactly sure-in one of the district courts, T.here was a conviction there and the other prosecutions will be going ahead within the next few months. MR.HISCOCK: ~..R.SPEAKER: for Eagle River. A supplementary. A supplementary. The hon .me11tber MR.HISCOCK: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer) inform this House why it has taken almost six years to solve this problem?

And as I said,it is being stored in other areas but in my district, as I said, in the residence of the detachment. It is now flooded, the nets are becoming mouldly and becoming almost a health hazard to the detachment there. Can the minister inform us as to how much is involved, ~ow much gear ? Haw many cases are pending? If further ones are pending,how many there are and the number of prosecutions involved and hew much money is also involved in this"? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, there are several prosecutions which will be taking place in the next few months.

The~e may be additional ones depending on matters which, you know, may or may ·not come to light between now 7488

December 10,1980 Tape No. 2802 AH-2 MR. OTTENF!EIMER: and then but there are se,eral which will be prosecuted within the next few months. With respect to th .e total amount of money involved, I would have to check that figure and give it to the hon. gentleman after I have refreshed my ~a~ory on the total figure. J.I.'.R. SPEAKER ( S irnrns) : A final supplementary. The hon. member for Eagle River. MR.HISCOCK: I would appreciate if" the !>tinister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) would do this and report back to the House on this matter.

There are several business- men also who bought the fishing gear and ended up giving it Or selling it to the fishermen 1 and Whe .n it WaS COnfiscated what ended up happening is that these businessmen are now out of pocket and a lot of them are out of pocket a fair amount of rnoney. Can the minister inform this House as to what steps are being taken to make sure that these businessmen are reinbursed or what will be happening in this matter to get this money paid to the businessmen? . MR.SPEAKER: The hoh. the Minister of Justice . MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, you know, obviously in some of the instances where gear and other material was taken by the police 1this was pursuant to a police investigation and, you know, in some instances there will be prosecutions so it will obviously depend upon that, you know,whether - AN HON. MEMBER: Well,there are prosecutions yet to come? MR. OTTENHE IMER: There are still some prosecutions to come , yes. There was one prosecution a few months ago and a conviction but there are some yet to ccme so naturally ' it will depend upon the disposition of that. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. ~J.R. STIRLii:'!G: Mr.

Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) .By now he 7~qo ·i I I ·I .I i

December 10,1980 MR. STIRLING: Tape No. 2802 AH-3 should know that the information which I gave him in the House yesterday was correct because I understand the union has now been in touch w~~h t~e member for the district 7c:nn

.J 1 ,, December 10, 1980 Tape 2803 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: as well as being in touch with me, and maybe between the two of us we can maybe now get the minister to take some action. There is absolute confusion which has only been added to by the minister's statement which was carried on Here and Now last night, which indicates that the layoff will only last a couple of days.

The local ma~agement people in Wabush still confirm as recently as fifteen minutes ago to the union leadership that the layoff is still effective December 15th and between us - I have spoken with the member for the district, the member on the other side, and I think he has now spoken to the minister. So will the minister now make an effort to try to clear up this situation? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. t~e Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, however second-hand the information the Leader of the Opposition is going by, or whatever the lack of information local management at Wabush Mines might have, the people of Labrador City and Wabush working at Wabush Mines know as of the C.B.C. news at 12:30, I think it is, in Wabus~ know exactly the latest information effective from the head office of the operators of Wabush Mines minutes before th~ 12:30 news, which I conveyed directly to C.B.C. to inform the people of Labrador West, and they know exactly and fully just what the situation is. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. -STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, that is the ~ind of attitude that this government has, not only the member but the whole goverrun~~t. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7501

December 10, 1980 MR. STIRLING: members of this House! SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. STIRLING: MR. ROBERTS: Tape 2803 EC - 2 What an absolute insult to the Hear, hear! Order, please! In other words, a question is asked - Does anybody know what the question was you asked yesterday. ~~- SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has a supplementary question? MR. STIRLI NG: I thought you called order, ~. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I did call order because I could not hear what you were saying. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: has a supplementary? MR. STIRLING: Oh, that is why I sat down.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition Yes, I think it is an insult to this House that a question is asked on a very serious matter affecting a very large part of this Province- now I know they realize they do not consider it part of the Province, but they do not have to show it every day - and in addition a question was asked and he has said, 'I have advised C.B.C. and they have advised the people. I do not intend to advise this House and I do not intend to advise the union leadership that has been thrown into confusion because of the problem.' I repeat the question.

Would the minister again,for the benefit of this House, let us know the secret information that he has from the head office of Wabush that the local management do not knmv about 75 Ci?

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2804 SD - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: in Wabush and the union leadership did not know about as of fifteen minutes ago? Now would he please do us the favour of telling us what that information is? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. L. BARRY: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition was elected at a recent leadership convention and his first two public statements were, (

a) that the Premier was a maniac; and (

b) that to erect a Newfoundland flag on Newfoundland territory in Labrador would be a declaration of war. SO~..E HON. l'IEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. MORGAN: That is right. MR. BARRY: And the type of comment being made now - not in the question, nothing wrong with the question, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think I should point out that both the questions and answers seem to be leading more to debate rather than serving the purpose of Question Period which is to ask questions and to provide answers. The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the provocation got to me; I apologize.

The question~legitmate question, the ancillary remarks, .1-Ir. Speaker, the same type of remarks that the Leader of the Opposition first made after being elected and they are not really up to the standards that this House has seen fran the Ieader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, there is no secret information. I just got through telling members and, you know, the Leader of the Opposition may throw a tantrum for not being the first to get it, but the people of Labrador West, for whom I thought he wanted to get the information, they have had it since 12:30. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 7501

December 10, 1980 Tapa No. 2804 SD - 2 MR. L. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaket, the latest information hot off the presses is that the contractor has been working on repairing the transmis~ion lines since the day after the damage occurred. As soon as the damage occurred -- ·---- the company got a contractor,with the assistance of Hydro Quebec,working on the transmission line; they have been working since last Saturday. Their best estimate is that the line will be completed, Mr. Speaker, repairs to the line will be completed around the 19th of December, given that the weather continues as well as it is right now.

If bad weather intervenes there could be further delays. Mr. Speaker, this will mean that the pellet plant at Pointe Noir should re-commence operations around the 19th of December and that means that once this plant has started up which should be in the area of a day after that, that the shut down which will have taken effect as of this coming Monday at Wabush should no longer be in effect and that Wabush Mines, Scully Mine will be back in operation. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is the best information that I can give, that the company can give in responding to \11hat 750/t

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2805 mv - 1 MR. L. BARRY: has been

an Act of God, a sleet storm which damaged the transmission line 1which is bei?g repaired as quickly as possible and a situation where government is remaining in consta~t touch with company officialsr and the company officials have agreed to keep me informed immediately if there are any new developments. !ll:R. L. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementa·ry, the bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: The minister, obviously, is more interested in playing silly games than in being concerned about those people who live in the area.

Now I presume from that latest bit of garbledinformation,that his information from yesterday,which was of two days,has now gone to four or five days. MR. L. BARRY: Read Hansard if your memory is not - MR. L. STIRLING: And will he now take some action to persuade the company to give some definite information to the employees who are affected?

Travel problems in and out of that area at the Christmas season - those things are bad enough - will he now take some action to simply say to the company,'Con- tinue to stockpile and keep those people employed during this period, whatever this period happens to be:because the minister ' cannot make up his mind whether it is two days or five days and nothing has changed that I can see. Will he now take the action he should have taken which is ask the company to con­ tinue on full operation and stockpile? SOME HON. ~~MEERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. 7505

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2805 DW - 2 MR. L. B.ll,.RRY: Mr. Speaker, the union leader- ship, I have to assume, was satisfied with the response I gave yesterday by telex. There was no request for clarifi­ cation. The Leader of the Opposition, I understand - MR. L. STIRLING: A point of order, ~rr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: A point of order? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: A polnt of order, the hon.

The minister knows, because he has just been told by the member for the district on his own side that the union membership were not satisfied with that information he gave yesterday, ne knows that. MR. L. oARRY: What sort of nonsense! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . W. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the han. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am responding to the point of order.T:he hon .. Leader of the Ooposition (~x.

Stirling) has, from time to time, gotten up in this House on points of order of this nature which are, in essence, not points of order but points of attempting to interrupt the normal flow as the rules of the House provide. Now, Mr. Speaker, if this is going to continue ,all you are going to have is aoina to he disorder in the House. And I respectfully submit to Your Honour that the hon. Leader of the Opposition himself is completely out of order when he is acting in this manner and he should be really advised that if he is goinq to continue that the rules of the House will be bent against him. 7S06

--- _.......:.:.._ ... ___ ..:_.. __ _ December 10, 1980 Tape No . 2805 DW - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): With respect to the point of order ,I rule there is no point of order but a difference of opinion . The hon. Minister of ~tines and Energy. 1•1R. L . BARRY : Mr . Speaker, 1vhen his analogy of the raising of th e Newfoundland flag on Newfound ­ land territory being a de clar ation of war. •.then that did not work the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) had to turn around and see what other sorts of mis chi evous nuisance statements he might come up with . Mr .

Speaker, I have given a full statement over the airwaves in Labrador West at 12: 30 today. I pointed out, Mr . Speaker, that at the presa~~ time Wabush Mines has 800,000 tons of concentrate stockpiled 75Cl 7

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2806 so - l MR. L. BARRY: at Pointe Nair, that Wabush Mines will have, by the end of this week, another 100,000 tons stockpiled at the Scully mine. They are approaching close to a million tons of concentrate in stockpile. The highest amount of concentrate they have ever previously held in inventory is in the area of 500,000 tons. Apart from the problems with respect to freezing, Mr. Speaker, of the concentrate, there is a limit to how much concentrate a company can hold in inventory, there is a limit to how much concentrate, Mr.

Speaker, can be tied up in inventor~ Economically that operation, Mr. Speaker, must do what it has to do in order to remain economically viable. And we saw what international conditions can .do to our great iron ore operations last Summer where there was no choice, Mr. Sneaker - AN HON.MEMBER: You are defending the company? MR. L. BARRY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as Minister of - ·- -·- Mines and Energy for this Province I will defend the mining companies of this Province 1just as I will defend the employees in the mines of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. L.

BARRY: And if ma~ers opposite want to take the irresponsible tack of attacking these good corporate citizens who are employing thousands of Newfoundlanders, go right to it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. L. BARRY: Go right to it and we will see - MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. L. BARRY: - where the people of this Province put their confidence. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. minister, I am not sure if he has completed his answer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I just had a point to add that economically there is a limit to how much ~oncentrate 75 QR

I ' j j j ., 1 l j ] l ~ -j December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2806 SD - 2 MR. L. BARRY: can be held in stockpile. We oelieve, Mr. Speaker, fr~ the evidence that "the company has given us, from the facts and figures submitt:ed · that the company is bending over backwards to minimize the impact on the employees. They have agreed, Mr. Speaker, at our request, to do everything possible to minimize the length of the shutdown and they will do everything humanly possible and, Mr. Speaker, that is all we can ask of anybody. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health (Mr. House) and it relates to the Newfoundland · Medicare ·Commission Report that came out yesterday. The first question I would ask the minister is is he very concerned about the significant increase in the administration costs of the Newfoundland Medicare Commission? It has now gone over 4 per cent of the total programme expenditures, almo .st 4. 5 per cent~ it is the first time it has gone over 4 per cent in a number of years. Is this just another example, Mr.

Speaker, of a b11reaucracy getting out of control and does the minister intend to do anything about it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I, first of all, want to point out to the hon. members of the House that it was a choice of the government, I guess all 7509 .. .:....-..&.. __ ...

December 10, 1980 Tape 2807 · EC - 1 M...~. HOUSE: past governments of Newfoundland that 'E ~uld go with a commission to administer the Medicare programme. And I would suggest that if anybody took time to study it and look at it that this is one of the most efficiently operated programmes that I know of, and I am sure there are other provinces in Canada that would be quite happy to have something so efficient. It is around 4.5 per cent, Mr. Speaker, it is $1.4 million. You know, it is increasing for the simple reason th.at there are a number of fee for service people expanding around the Province.

There are sixty people employed in the administration of the programme; they are all employed here in the Province. We are quite happy with what is happening and we are quite happy with the cross-check, the checking that is done on billing. The Auditor General reviews this and gives his report and he is quite happy with it also. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. the Mr. Speaker, I should point out that the Auditor General has nothing to do with running the Newfoundland Medicare Commission.

All he does is audit to make sure that what they do spend is spent properly and so on. My supplementary to the minister is would the minister give an undertaking to this House today that there would be no further increase granted in fee for service, in other words, salaries to doctors this year, in view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that to the end of April, 1979 there was an 8 per cent increase granted, another 15 per cent increase since that. We see in the totals given in the M.C.P. report that 90 per cent of 7 51 Q

December 10, 1980 Tape 2807 EC - 2 MR. WHITE: the doctors in Newfoundland involved with Medicare are getting over $&0,000 and over one-quarter or about one-quarter are getting over $100,000. Could the minister give us an undertaking that with the economic situation in this Province being what it is, there will be no further increases granted to doctors in this Province for quite some time? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, no, I am not going to give any such undertaking.

I think hon. members are looking at this and we are ~g the average income stated for G.P.s and the various specialists. True, there was an 8 per cent increase and last year there was a 15 per cent increase - 10 per cent, I think, straight and 5 per cent that was to adjust certain specialties. AN HON. MEMBER: That does not show up in these. MR. HOUSE: No, that is not showing up here at all. And that was to try to catch up with the average, I guess, in the rest of Canada. Mr.

Speaker, one of the things that we have to bear in mind is we have 413 doctors in fee for service in the Province and the operative thing we should be looking at is not necessarily the average incomes but the amount that they get paid for each particular service. And ""'- 7 s 11

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2808 EL -,1 MR. HOUSE: the fact is there are some doctors in this Province who are working seventy and eighty hours per week and so - M"R. P,03FRTS : And there are some who are not. MR. HOUSE: - and there are some who are not, obviously, that is true and,of course, that is reflected in the figures there. So I am not going to give any such undertaking. As a matter of fact the government has gi .ven an undertaking and there will be negotiations with doctors again.

I am not saying what that will result in and whether there will be any increase, I am not going to talk about that here in this House. We are not going to neg­ otiate in public 1but we will be sitting down with doctors again as we do every year. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for Lewisporte. MR. >ffiiTE: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the han. Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure if what I heard is correct and I will just ask the minister to re-state the last part of what he just·said, But in less than two years a twenty-three per cent increase has been granted to a group of people in this Province who are making between $60,000 and $120,000 a year anu 1:"1e , .. ::.aister is telling us natol that the government is getting ready to give them another increase. Is that what the minister is saying? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health. MR.· HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I never said the government is getting ready.

I said the government will be sitting down with doctors and discussing their tarrifs, I think is the word they use,and schedules for ~~e next year. That is correct, Mr. Speaker. 7 5 'i 2

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2808 EL - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am not allowed to debate with the minister and so I will not 1but vou will under­ stand my saying if the government sits down to negotiate, they are obviously going to put money on the table. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear MR. ROBERTS: However, I want to come back to this question of the MCP budget. The minister conspicuously failed to answer the question which my friend from Lewisporte (F.White) asked so I will try it again.

The cost of admin- istering Medicare aci a ~ercentage of the total amount so it has little to do with the number of fee for services being performed. But the percentage of the total payout of r~edicare has gone, as I understand it, from a little over three and a half per cent to nearly four and a half per cent in the last five years. And, of course, the minister would concur that there are - that is three and a half of a much smaller amount that it is now fouE and a half of.

I wonder if the minister could give us any explanation at all - he is responsible, he is the onJy person whom we, in this House, can question, he would concur - l•7hy has this gone up as a percentage? 1-tR. NEAAY: Abortions have gone up. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I am not certain why it has gone up. I guess it is like everything else, the cost of salaries and so on. If you notice the computer service there costs about three hundred. That has gone down in the last year by about fifty thousand dollars.

The salaries went up,according to the remainder of the public service,by about a hundred thousand. That was in keeping with the same per- centage of other people in this public service. The rent went up this year,and that is a rental agreement with the St. John's 7 5 'j 3

------ ~-------~ ....... ----·~·. -- ~~ December 10, 1980 Tape No . 280·9 EL - 3 MR~ H0USE: Rousing Corporation. So those are the major increases. One other thing not reflected, of course, is tliat since 1977 or '79. the salaried doctors are not reflected in this part~cular increase. MR. ROBERT S·: MR". HOUSE : MR . ROBER T S : MR. S?EAKER C.S'imrn:S') : the Strait of Belle Isle .• Why sho~ld they be? They were before that. Ah, come on, ~wallcae. t A supplementary., Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the member for 7 5 ~I 4 -'<

December 10,1980 Tape No. 2809 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, would the minister undertake to table a list - I do not wish for names, that has nothing to do with it - a list showing the number of positicns in Medicare, the M.C.P.

Commission - it was always a very tightly run operation but it seems ~ to be getting out of hand -the number of positions in the Medicare Commission, the number of position per, say, one thousand services performed - let us get a measure that way- he will find the· words in Hansa~d, he does not need to write them down- and the number of positions that are paid more than,say, $15,000 a year?

Because I suspect and I suggest to the minister that what is happening is the insidious classification process and I suspect that MCP is being classified up even more rapidly than anywhere else in the public service and if that is so I would like to know why it is so. Would the minister table that information, Sir? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR.HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly take the questions and get the answers for the hon. gentleman. I am pretty certain,of course, that there are not that many doctors employed, that is in the administration of this particular programme.

AN HON MEMBER: One. MR.-HOUSE.: One, that is right, yes. Dr. Russell is in the booklet here. MR. ROBERTS: The Medical Director. There has always been one right from the start 7 s 1 c; ...

December 10,1980 Tape No. 2809 AH-2 MR. NEARY: And do not forqet to answer my question on the Order Paper today. MR. ROBERTS: He has always L.:!ell carried in tne solitary vote. MR. SPE&~ER (Simms): Order, please! The hnn. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I will gladly give all the answers and all the informaticn.~~d I say again that this is perhaps one of the most efficient run operations that any government has in Canada.

When you are getting bills in from all over this Province, perhaps fifty or sixty a day from each physician across the Province and there is a lot of checking to be done - and I just point out to the hon. members how efficient the operation is. Some time ago we saw a programme on CBC where a partic~~ar person went to three doctors in one day to prove a certain point and before that particular programme came on the airwaves that person was checked finding out what was happening for her to be to two or three doctors in one day. A very efficient operation, Mr. Speaker.

MR.ROBERTS: The same one put in place twelve years ago. MR.SPEA.KER: The hon.member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development.Could the minister advise whymel oil and gasoline would cost more in a community such as Makkovik where the consumer buys frnm ? government operated store than it would cost buying it frnm a retailer in Nain? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural,Agricultural and Northern Development. MR.GOUDIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, I will certainly advise but I will have to take notice of the question ~~d I will get the inforrnatinn for the hon.member. MR.SPEA.KER: The hon. member for Lapoile. 7 ~ ·1 6

December 10,1980 Tape No. 2809 AH-3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mrs.Newhook) 1 Sir, and it has to do with the dismantling of the Water Services Branch of the minister's department. Would the minister care to tell the House how this 7 s ·: 7

.:.~~...,...:..:::-...:: .... ---·-·-·_ ........ _____ ·- · ·---~--·---·. __ ;-,:.- --~-· -· ~ ·---~· -~: .. :;.:;~._~ .. ~::.~- - December 10, 1980 Tape 2810 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: work is being handled now, water services, well drilling and so forth, and what will happen to the senior positiong in the minister's department a~ a result of their becoming redundant because of the dismantling of the Water Services Division of that department? ~~. SPEAKER .(Simms): The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

MRS • NEWHOOK: Mr.Speaker, we have two divisions for water services in our department, one is industrial and the other for unincorporated areas. Our department has been reorganized. There will be a number of redundant positions and there will be a number of other positions which will have to be ~illed. It is hoped that the people occupying the positions that will become redundant will be placed in the other positions which will become open. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A final supplementary, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, a couple of years ago a police investigation into certain aspects of the water services division of the minister's department was under­ taken and various other divisions of the minister's department. Would the minister care to tell the House if these police investigations have been completed or,if not, when they will be completed and if any charges or suspensions or dismissals will result from this police investigation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS • NEWHOOK: Mr.

Speaker, I am afraid I will have to take notice of that particular question and get the information so that I can give you a full account of it. MR. NEARY i Tomorrow? MRS. NEWHOOK: Tomorrow. 7 5 .l 8

December 10, 1980 Tape 2810 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Sirmns): Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR.. MARSHALL: Mr •. Speaker, pursuant to the Resolution that has been passed in this House urider the name of the hon. the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) - this is the Select Cormnittee on Resource Management - I move that the following do constitute this Committee: The han. the member for Baie Verte ~ White Bay (Mr.

Rideout), the han. the member for Stephenville (Mr.Stagg), the hon. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews), the han. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) and the hon. the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett). Mr. Speaker, I can give this as notice of motion, but because the matter has been debated, perhaps we could pass that motion? MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave? By leave. By leave. So it is moved and seconded. You have heard the motion. Those in favour, 'Aye'? .:;0!1E HON. HEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: Council. MR. MARSHALL : 'Aye' • Contrary? The motion is carried.

The hon. the President of the Mr. Speaker, pursuant to the Standing Orders of this House, I move that the follo•vir.g 7 5 ': 9

December 10, 1980 Tape 2810 EC - 3 MR. MARSHALL: constitute the Privileges and Elections Committee of this House: The hon. the Minister · of Finance (Dr. Collins), the hon. the member for Stephenville lMr. Stagg), the bon. the member for St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas), the hen. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) and the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). Again, Mr. Speaker, because this is a Standing Committee, I would ask that the - MR. SPEAKER (.Simms): I would assume there is definitely leave of an agreement? MR. NEARY: Your party was so successful last night, Mr.

Speaker, that I do not think the hon. gentleman could have picked a better time to set up a committee on Elections and Privile .ges. SOME H.ON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Order, please! I. understand there is agreement then? You have heard the motion. Those in favour 'Aye'? SOME H.ON. MEMBERS : ~- SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: 'Aye'. Contrary'? The motion is carried. ORDERS OF THE DAY This being Wednesday, Private ~·s Day; last Wednesday when the House adjourned we were debating the amendment to Motion No. 1, the amendment moved by the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight) , and I believe the hon. the member for Eagle River had adjourned the debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HISCOCK: The hon. the member for Eagle River. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, as I was finishing saying last Wednesday on this motion that basicall y asks where before Confederation its offshore minerals thing and did not 75?n

---~--__.... ...... ·--~ .-.. -..!...--1 -- ... - ···-·-------~~:0.1 December 10, 1980 Tape 2810 EC - 4 MR. HISCOCK ,: relinquish it under th e Terms of Union, basically the motion says, we are saying that this Province controls the offshore. A resolution like this was passed each year or every two years by this Bouse . Whether it was regarded as the Liberals or the Conse.~tives, a joint motion was always sent to Ottawa saying that we owned the offshore.

The Conservative Party has said time and time again that- of course 1 we as the Liberals and particularl y t.b..e Opposition provincially do not support this position. We support tb:is bill, Mr. Speaker 1 as w~ have in the past and •.te will continue in the future, and we will 752 1 ...

. ' ' :: --~~· -~ __ , ---·-- ---"'" .... __,......._ _______ .......................... --·'--- · -- __.._:.~,......._.. . __ ' • I . l December 10,1980 Tape No. 2811 AH-1 MR. HISCOCK: continue to work to make sure that Newfoundland not only.gets control of its offshore 1 but maximum benefits.

I would like to go a further step in this; instead of us now talking about the control of the offshore and the ownership and that,I think we should be preparing more for the impact of what is happening with the offshore when it comes, whether we are going to be bringing the oil in tankers to Come By Chance or whether we are going to have it in storage.

I remember the Premier saying in this House,if I am correct, that not one bit of the oil is going to be going to other markets, that it was going to be brought to this Island, was going to be processed and that he was not going to permit these large multi- national companies to go and load at the wellheads and then take it to markets without ever coming on land. There were talks0f a pipeline, there were talks of other ways of bringing it onshore. Now the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) .a-s well ·as the Premier !'lave basically softened their position and said , ~,..Vell 1 it depends on the quantity.

We cannot bring one !!!illion barrels a day onshore,'which is quite true. But what I think it is really pointing out, and the member from Lewisporte (Mr.White) pointed out in his speech, that we are rather concerned on this side because of the confrontation issue between Ottawa and also particularly probably with some of the companies. Now what is going to happen is that either they are going to turn around and load at the wellhead, take it on to markets of the Eastern Seaboard 1 and that Nova Scotia or some other area of Canada will get maximum benefit from Hibernia or from other wells that develop.

So I am concerned with that and I hope that this does not happen. Th.e second thing that I think we 752?

December 10,1980 •rape No. 2811 AH-2 MR. HISCOCK: should have to be concerned about is the cost of living. The cost of living now, Mr.Speaker, is going up ever so fast because of the potential of Hibernia. We see highrises going up in St. John's, new hotels going to be built,and low income rental houses as well as apartment houses, Mr. Speaker·, that are going to be built. All this is going to have a great impact on the person. on Social Assistance or a pe~son on a fixed income. I would like to know what policy does this government have , Mr.

Speaker, with regard to lessening the impact: Are we going to do as they do in Saskatoon, buy up land banks and let us,say,buy the land around St.John's in a radius probably of fifty miles and the Province control the land instead of opening it up to speculatcrs and driving the cost of land far beyond the average person? Newfoundland itself and particularly St. John's prides itself that we have about an eighty per cent rate of people owning their own homes in this Frovince. We see now a proposal going out to build 750 rental units. Our concern on this side, Mr.

Speaker, is that we continue to have the lifestyle of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians owning their own homes. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.HISCOCK: If we do not get into the process of buying land and taking it out of the hands of the real estate speculator, Nhat 1s going to happen is that the price of land is going to go far beyond the reach of the average horne owner. Young couples who are trying to start a life for themselves, they are newly married, find themselves that they cannot even build a house now because of the high interest rates and mortgage rates.

And now compounded on that they cannot even basically afford the piece of land. And I would say that· this government 7523

. I ~ . ~.-- .. ~ ....... - '• ---·--· .--..~ 04·- ............. --~~·-·~;-.;; December 10,1980 Tape No. 2811 AH -3 MR. . HISCOCK: itself with all the Crown land in and around St . John's and other areas of Conception Bay or Salmonier and whatever, that basically all this land should be made available to the residents of the Avalon and particularly around St. John's, that we bring down the cost of land and thereby keeping our own lifestyle and culture. Another questi0n that I am concerned about with the offsh0re and that is do we have and I have said this in speeches before - do we have proper pollution control?

Are we as a Province wanting to take full responsibility for the offshore to get ownership? A.re we going to accept full responsibility for develcpment?A.Tld if we are ,are we also going to turn around then and expect Environment Canada and the ccastguard to pay the bill or foot the bill for cleaning up any oil spills? So I would sa y, Mr . Speaker, when you have Hibernia or Ben Nevis or any of the other wells 200 miles out in the Atl.antic 752 ,. ...

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2812 SD - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: and there is a storm and there is a blowout and we have the clean-up equipment here in the harbour of St. John's or in the harbours around the Province, I am asking the ~uestion, Mr. Speaker, do we have enough, number one; number two, should it not be located out on the Banks themselves. I suggested that for each well, for each drilling platform out there, we should have another type of boat with equipment on hand for a one to one basis. If, Mr.

Speaker, it is going to cost billions of dollars then what is wrong with having equipment and a boat out there that would cost about $5 million or $6 million and have the equipment there and not have to wait because of stormy weather or other problems in getting this equipment out there? So, Mr. Speaker, I think there is no question that Hibernia is proving itself commercial. It has been put up to 1986, the companies are saying, before they bring it on stream but in the meantime we are finding land, houses, cost of living and X number of other factors involved jumping out of control.

Are we going to lessen that impact and,if we are, how are we goinq to do it? Mr. Speaker, I think these are questions we should be asking ourselves now. We should get out of the realm of debate of the ownership. This government should accept the words of the Opposition,and we have said it time and time again, we support control of the ownership of the resource. Now this House, and I am not saying that the ~~1ernment give up the political battle with Ottawa or whatever.

I am not saying that at all, \vhat I am saying is instead of government getting up,and it will happen after I sit down, instead of the government getting up and criticizing us and saying, no, you do not really support it and X number of other things and trying to score . political points, I think it would be much better if all this House of Assembly ar.d the representative for the people 75'25

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2812 so - 2 M-~. E. HISCOCK: put their energy into solving the problem that is going to come after the oil starts coming on, after that and also before the impact comes of the cost of land and other factors going up. And, Mr. Speaker, I really do feel that we are making a political issue of it and it may go in for election and we may have another election fought on. I feel that we will have a provincial election fought on this issue and that is going to be fought on Ottawa versus Newfoundland control of the resourses and control of our destiny.

And I think it is going to be a very shallow issue to be fought on because the government here as well as the Opposition basically sup?orts that view. But in the meantime, Mr. Speaker, I feel that this House should divert its energy into should we buy up land banks, as I said, like Saskatoon has? The city of Saskatoon controls all the land, they decide how much is going to be built, they decide whether it is going to be residential and then a church in a radius, say, of ten blocks and then also a school in that area. MR. STIRLING: This Province used to in the Northeast Land Assembly. MR.

HISCOCK: And this Province used to do it in the Northeast Land Assembly. Are we going to be getting into those experimental projects? Are we going to be getting co-operation with Ottawa from the point of view of low income housing? Are we going to continue to keep ahead of, let us say, peopl~ on low income? These are the ones I think we have to be concerned about here in St. John's, the older people who have larger homes and are living by themselves. Are we going to drive the cost of living so high by the speculation that they will have to give up these homes and go into apartments?

We hear very much about the quality of live and culture that this government is maintaining 7526

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2812 SD - 3 MR. E. HISCOCK: but in the meantime I do not see and I have not seen any programmes. The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) implements a study. A study is very good,but what are the concrete proposals of that study? I would say, Mr. Speaker, that there is no question with regard to the offshore, we own it, we own it as a province, we have always owned it and we will continue to own it. But in the meantime, Mr.

Speaker, what we have to do now is come to an agreement with Ottawa over this and get it settled and then the other thing is, as I say, we have to continue to look for new experimental ways of lessening this impact of oil and gas on this Province. And if we do not do it and the government in particular in power now, if they do not do it then ~11 the drilling and all the money that is going to be ~orning in ,we are not going to have the type of Province that we are living in now. v'le already see the changes that are corning. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to advise this government instead of getting up and criticizing the Opposition and the Liberal Party in this Province it would be much better 75?7

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2813 DW - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: to put the energy into the areas of finding how we can lessen the impact of oil and gas on this Province. Thank you, Mr. S~eaker. SOME HON. !f:MBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. the member for Stephenville. SOME HON.~~~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. F. STAGG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is very much a recurring theme in this House of Assembly, debates being held in which we, as elected members in this House,~ut our views forward as to what our positions are with regard to our offshore resource.

It is something that has been familiar to us over the years and it was really something we were looking at in the academic back from 1949 to the present. It was an academic thing, it was something for the lawyers, the constitutional lawyers or the people on the fifth floor, the Justice Department,to consider as an acada~ic exercise. Well, Mr. Speaker, this is no longer in the field of academics. This is in the practical field at the present time.And just how practical is the problem that we are facing today?

Now there was introduced in the House of Commons yesterday a bili which is to give legislative approval and teeth to a-proposal ~n the federal budget which was announced some time in October. I do not have the full details of the bill but I hope that hon. members who follow me will. But the principle that is being established there is that the federal government is laying claim to 43 per cent of our offshore resource. Forty- three per cent, it is a confiscation an outright confis- cation.

It is an outright power grab, a resources grab that is announced with the fanfare of the Budget and is an out-and-out declaration by the federal government 7528 ...

Decen~er 10, i980 Tape No_ 2813 DW - 2 MR- F. STAGG: that they and their Crown agency, Petro-Canada,will have a strangle hold on our offshore resource forever more. That is their declara- tion and where do we stand on that? Obviously, we stand where we always have stood. We stand where we always have stood,four square for Newfoundland No~r '"7here do -~on. me~bers o~Dosite stand? ~. L. THOMS:· Four square for Newfoundland. MR. F. STAGG: Where do hon. members opposite stand? And you can always tell, Mr.

Speaker, when you are starting to make a point because the caterwauling and the interjections and the attempts to frustrate the speaker, the person who is speaking, they always start as soon as you begin to make some progress. Where do hon. members opposite stand? Where do hon.mernbers opoosite whose districts are repre- sented bv Liberal members in the House of Commons, where do they stand on this issue? Where do they stand as far as the confiscation of Newfoundland's resources of our offshore? It is called'frontier oil lands' , that is how it was referred to in the Budget.

Well, frontier oil lands is frontier exploration and so on; well, that includes the Northern areas, the Northwest Territories, Prudeau Bay and whatever other ones are up there. But, Newfound- land is regarded as a frontier by the Ottawa Government. Now what is significant in calling it a frontier? Well, a ll frontier is probably peopled by people who are less civilized " than people who live in the civilized central ~art of the countr y . The history of frontier areas is that they have been exploited. Well, is the federal government being consistent?

Yes, they are very, indeed, being consistent, very much, indeed, being consistent_ They are attempting 75?9 ___ , ...

·---···-···:....:---.. . -·- _._, _______ ~- December 10 , 1980 Tape lllo . 2813 OW - 3 MR . F. STAGG: by the device of first announcing it i.n the Budget to attempt to give so me political credibility to th eir claim to our offshore resourcE': that we brought into Can ada in 1949. 1\'e brought it into Canada, Canada did not own it, did not have anything to do with it ~reviously . It was foreign land to them . Now they are claiming 43 per cent of it for Ottawa .

Now, I would like to know hm• han. members oppo site can wrestle with ~~ei= consciences,because they were all out last year campaigning for their respective Liberal c~~didate s in the federal election, but han . members op9osite a.re going to reap, they are going to reap what they have SO\ffl . They have sown some Liberals up in Ottawa and we are going to reap the political benefits of it because the people of Newfoundland are probably goinq to toss a~ least - how many of you are there now? Seventeen of you - they are g oin~ to toss at least fourteen of you out in the next election . 7'iin 1

December 10, i980 Tape No. 2814 EL - 1 MR. STAGG: There will be a few pockets left which we will get probably in 1988. The hon. members opposite have to come to grips with the problem of where do they stand, where do they stand on issues as Newfoundland versus Ottawa, because that is what it comes down to, Newfoundland versus Ottawa. Where do ~~ey stand with regard to their federal colleagues? Where do they stand when we are faced with this type of de- bacle that Mr.

Rompkey and the Leader of the Opposition·wrecked upon this Province some weeks ago, which was designed for the bas·e political purposes of the incident? Where do they stand? They cannot get by. It is not sufficient to get up and say,'~'le own it. We own it and we always owned it;because your friends, your colleagues, the people that you put into office are out there trying to grab outright forty- three per cent of it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

STAGG: That is where we stand in this Province today and hon. members opposite cannot hide their heads in the sand,or wherever they hide thern,and avoid that issue. That issue is very much part of this resolution. This resolution is a part of the consistent philosophy and consistent approach that has been prevalent on this side of the House. The han. members opposite cannot have one policy for this House of Ass­ embly, one policy that really skirts the main issue: Where do .they stand with their political bedfellows in Ottawa and the five people that they campaigned and put into office in the last election?

I would like to see hon. members opposite speak on that issue, direct themselves to that issue. Where do they stand with regard to their political colleagues in Ottawa? Hhat do they think, what do they think of the five Liberals in Ottawa who are trying to grab outright forty- three per cent of our resource and who say that Newfoundland owns zero per cent of it because of certain legal technicalities 75~1 ..

Dece~ber 10, 1980 Tape No. 2814 EL - 2 MR. STAGG: which they indicate would show that the Federal Government has jurisdiction and control? That is the issue that hon. members opposite have to face. And you are not going to be able to skirt it, it is going to be thrown up to you tD~e and time again. It is going to be thrown up in t.he House and it is going to be thrown up on hustings because t~e hustings may not be too far away on an issue of this type. Now, that is the issue that is before the House of Commons at the present time. It is before the House of Commons in Ottawa.

The Liberal majority of the House of Co!llillons in Ottawa have a bill comin·:r before the House of Commons t~at is going - brought in yesterday that is designed for the confiscation of forty-three per cent of our offshore. That is the bill that is before the House of Commons in Ottawa. A~d hon. members opposite are going to be satisfied with saying, 'We own it~ TiJe own it, 1 while your buddies say they own it , your friends say they own it. Let us see if you break with them. Let us see where you really stand on these things because we need your help, we need your help. We all know where we stand.

We know where we stand. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR·. · STAGG: We need your help on this issue. This is an issue that crosses party lines. This is an issue similar to the issue on which the member for Twillingate (W.Rowe) crossed party lines some time ago, a great patriotic move on his part, a great patriotic move on his part. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STAGG: Where do hon. members opposite stand '; They"hope, hon. members opposite hope that the people of Newfoundland will not get this matter put properly before the next election.

I can tell you right now that it will be before the people on the West Coast. It will be before every legislator, every voter on the West Coast . It will be before every voter on the West Coast because I will make sure it is. 753?

December 10, 1980 Tape No . 2 s-14 EL - 3 MR. STAGG: Now, whCl.t have we got here? We have a motion introduced by the member for Placentia (W. Patterson) • Let 1:s deal with the member for Placentia. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKE:R (Butt) : Order, please! MR. STAGG: What kind of man 'is the member for Placentia? The member for Placentia is a great patriot. He is a great patriot. SOME __ HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STAGG:.

He is a man who has on many occasions- prior to his election in 1975 he sallied forth in the vain pursuit of election down in Placentia, fighting against the Liberal juggernaut of the day. How many times did he run? He ran about as many times as Al Evans ran, another great patriot who at one time sat in this House. In - 197l,I remember it well because I was running for the first time in 1971, the member for Placentia he now is, then he was a candidate 7'i31 ~

December 10,1980 Tape No. 2815 AH-1 MR.STAGG: in the district of Placentia East, he kep~ Mr. Smallwood under wraps. Mr.Smallwood could not take his travelling road show on the road because the member for Placentia came within 400 votes of defeating him in Placentia East. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STAGG: That is the kind of man who put this resolution before the House. He is the ~an who has in b.is files all sorts of very interesting material.

He occasionally gives it to me arid says, here, you are going to speak on a certain thing,see what you can make out of this,and on occasion I must say he has been a great help to me. He is a great help and an inspiration to all ~embers on this side and I am very proud that he has put this motion before the House. Now, Mr. Speaker, what is the motion. Well,the motion is, "Mr. Patterson, Placentia to move1

WHEREAS, before Confederation, this Province owned its offshore minerals and did not relinquish the same under the terms of union; AND

WHEREAS the revenues, employment and industrial benefits which will result from offshore development will flow to the Province only if ownership and con .trol are confirmed; AND

WHEREAS if the Province does not control the rate and type of development,many negative impacts will occur in our Province; AND

WHEREAS - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. STAGG: - if certain proposed offshore development plans are permitted to go ahead, few employment or industrial-developments will accrue to the Province; 75:1l.t

---'-- --- ---- December 10,1980 Tape No. 2815 AH-2 MR. STAGG: THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this Honourable House support the Province's efforts to preserve this Province's historic, moral and legal calim to own and control its offshore mineral resources!' Well,that is a noble resolution. It is the kind of resolution that we have debated before in the academic. But we are right down to the hard facts of it now. This is not an ~cademic problem anymore, gentlemen.

This is very much a political problem for hon. members opposite because they hope that they can say one thing here and yet go out and consort "with and attempt to further the political lives of the five Liberals in Ottawa who are going to vote for this hill, who are going to vote for that bill that is an attempt · to confiscate forty-three per cent of our offshore resource. Those are the kind of people you sent up to Ottawa.

You sent five Liberals up there and their objective is to further the aims and objectives of the federal government, which is to grab as much of our resource as pos ·sible, to have rapid development of it so that the federe>l nnvernment can . ---- . - . --· have additional revenue so that its profligate spending habits can be brought under control by the use of a Newfoundland resource. Well, Mr. Speaker, we do not stand for that here in"this House.

We on this side of the House, all thirty-four of us at this stage - there are going to be more because I think Bellevue may be the start of it, Belle~~e maybe the start. MR. THOMS: Why do you not call a by-electinn? MR.SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. STAGG: Well, I cannot call a by-election. I cannot call a by-e1ection,but I hope that when the by-election is called that hon. members - han. members will go down there 7535 ...

DecemBer 10,1930 Tape No. 2815 AH-3 MR. STAGG: and say, I agree with the federal govenment, I agree with these fellows that we put up in Ottawa tfiat we want the forty-three per cent. Are you going to do that? I have not heard a voice raised. As I said before, you are a bunch of clones. You are clones. You are Liberals. The Liberals are all the same. A Liberal is a Liberal is a Liberal. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. FLIGHT: You should know. And a fool-is a fool is a fool. MK. ::i'l'AGu: I am not going to raise a point of order on that, Mr.

Speaker, because hon. members opposite are living proof of that which they accuse o~hers of being. Now , Mr. Speaker, what kind of an economy do we want in this Province? What we want in this Province is a resource based economy. We want a resource based economy not a resource dependent economy and I am going to quote here briefly from a speech which I made in Stephenville on the weekend. It was an excellent speech. I must say that I used some material from other sources but I basically put it all together myself and I must say it was quite a tome.

We on this side, we recognize the great deal of difference between a resource based economy and a resource dependent economy. Hon. members opposite may not recognize it,but I will tell you that if we - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~~. SPEAKERlButt): Order, please! MR. STAGG: - if you listen you may be educated. In the former, the resource based economy 1 wise resource management can be used to create a broad range of economic activities and a broad range of new technological skills.

In the latter, the resource dependent economy, which is really what the Liberals would have us existing under, the resources were extracted 7538

December 10, 1980 Tape 2816 EC - 1 MR. STAGG: and exported without signiticant linkages to and spinoffs in other parts of the economy. We on this side of the House seek a resource based economy, not a resource dependent economy and we will use our resource ownership to achieve that goal. Now, han. members opposite would do well to direct themselves to the issue of whether or not they support their political colleagues in Ottawa. Ottawa members said, yes, they are in agreement with this Resolution. They are to deal with this Resolution. They are in agreement that Newfoundland owns its resources. SOl-1E HON .

MEMBERS : MR. STAGG: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. STAGG: Oh, oh! Well, do you agree with - Order, please! Do you agree with the five Liberals in Ottawa? Do you agree with Mr. Trudeau · and Mr.LaLonde and Mr. Chretien? ·no you agree with all them? Tell me , do you agree with them? ~~. FLIGHT: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. STAGG: MR. FLIGHT: MR. STAGG: Yes, I do. Speak up! I hear muteness over there. Wholeheartedly. You agree with them wholeheartedly. The han. member agrees with Mr. LaLonde and Mr. Chretien and Mr. Rompkey. He agrees with all them. The member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight) agrees that they should have 43 per cent of our pffshore resources on the one hand and then he agrees with our motion. Well, the han. member knows not what he sa ys. And I must say thi~, that the hon. member is not one of the four safe seats that the Liberals have in this ·Province, and statements of that type reveal why he does not have a safe seat. 7537 ....

December 10, 1980 Tape 2816 EC - 2 MR. STAGG: Now, I am going to quote from another noted Newfoundlander, one of contemporary powers. Many of us here attended Memorial University in the 1950s and 1960s. A contemporary of ours at that time, Mr. Doug House, recently gave a very interesting paper before a - what was it called? AN HON. 'MEMBER: Environmental conference. MR. STAGG! An environmental conference held h~re in St. John's recently. I am quoting from page three of that, talking about government policies and administration. Mr.

House says, "I have argued elsewhere and will reiterate here that Newfoundlanders, including government officials, must reconcile themselves to a greater degree of government involvement in the economy if oil and gas are to be controlled in the provincial interest. Government approaches towards decentralized development, controlling lands speculation, financing oil impacted municipalities and protecting the fishery will be crucial determinants in how oil will affect the outports.

Under federal jurisdiction," -and this is what he said, and I was delighted to see it; a young Newfoundlander in his thirties - you start calling people young Newfoundlanders when you get into your thirties yourself, it would be older if you were in your twenties - but a young Newfoundlander who is highly educated and, I think, a great patriot, said, 'Under federal jurisdiction I woul~ be worried by 1) the remoteness of the decision makers in Ottawa from the needs of rural Newfoundland and 2) the likelihood that Ottawa would implement rapid develop­ ment in the national interest,' -in the national interest, that is the sort of thing that is bandied about.

It is in the B.N.A. Act today, and ,it was in the national interest to put in price and wage control in 1975 and so on. 'In the national interest' is a catch phrase. The likelihood that Ottawa would implement rapid development in the national 753R

--- ·----------- ---- - December 10, 1980 Tape 2816 EC - 3 MR. STAGG: interest with little regard to outport Newfoundland.' Now, that is what Mr. House said. And I must say that I was delighted to see that sort of thing that he mentioned. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. S'l'AGG: The man whom the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) supports so well, Mr.Chretien, let me tell you what Mr. Chretien said in Ottawa around the latter part ofOctober. This is a quote from the Ottawa Citizen.

"The Justice Minister, Jean Chretien,said Wednesday the federal government might be more willing to help Newfoundland in its energy battles with Quebec if it would soften its opposition to federal constitutional proposals. "I am amazed to see Premier Peckford always giving us all sorts of problems but when he needs the federal government he always calls on us to help him get his electricity across Quebec", the minister said during a heated exchange in the conunons.

"If he wants us to help I think he should stop that kind of statement",Chretien added referring to Peckford's criticism Tuesday night of federal constitutional proposals. The power battle also highlights the need 7S3Q -"

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2817 SD - l H...~. F. STAGG: for a strong central government he told James McGrath, the Progressive Conservative MP for St. John's East." And what does the Saskatoon paper say? Ottawa offers compromise to Premier Peckford;, and it goes on to say much the same thing. But the headline in the Ottawa Citizen said, 'Newfoundland must be good to get help'. In other words, we here in Newfoundland must toe the federal Liberal Party line if we are to get help from Ottawa. And quite often you will hear hon. members opposite say how much has Ottawa put into our Newfoundland economy.

And the DP£E committee in Corner Brook in September said the very same thing. As soon as they start to mention the fact - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. F. STAGG: - that Ottawa sends some money into Newfoundland, you aresupposedto get down on your knees and prostrate yourself before them and that sort of thing and hon. members have been on their knees so long that they have holes in their pants. MR. L. THOMS: Tell us how you embarrassed your own Party at the DREE Committee meeting. MR. F. STAGG: Yes, embarrassed my own Party!

I did myself proud at Corner Brook and I am only hoping that the federal member there who was Vice-Chairm~~, who was acting as Chairman, that he sent a transcript around so I could have it sent to my constituents,because hon. members opposite were there each replying to the line fed to him by the Chairman. MR. w. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: A point of order, the hon. President The hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) is making some very telling points, but all I can hear, Mr. Speaker, is the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thorns) with constant interruptions. Now the hon. member is entitled to 7St.n

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2817 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: be heard by us without any interruptions and I would ask the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) be restrained if not named. MR. HODDER: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA-XER (Butt) : To the point of order, the hen. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: The hon. member is drawing that type of response from the House. As You Honour knows, when a member asks to be heard in silence he is heard in silence. But the hon. member, with all the garbage that he has been going on with in the House, is just drawing co~~ents from this side of the House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. ~.R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. MARSHALL: If you want to follow that, what the hen. member is saying is if you do not agree with what he is saying in this House you can turn it into a beer garden if you want to. MR. SPEAKER~ Order, please! I think there is a lemitimate point of order here - MR. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, I think I have - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think there is a legitimate point of order here and I would ask all hon. members ; on both sides of the House to adhere to the rules of the House. The hen. member for Stephenville has about thirty seconds. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : - Hear, hear. MR. F. STAGG: Well, Mr. Speaker, in my thirty seconds I just want to say that the previous Liberal speaker said there is going to be an election called in this Province sometime and control of our destiny is going to be one of the issues and he called that a 'shallow issue'. Well, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that control of our destiny is not going to be a 'shallow issue' and I say in summation we must have ownership and control of our offshore resources. We on this side must be vigilant in seeking that because 754 1

.I 1 l 1 l J ..••. ..s.lo• '•• .... .,."' ---- .. .:...~.iH-~...:.-_ ______ ·-·---.:::£..--------~-- ---· December 10, 1980 Tape No . 2817 SD - 3 MR. STAGG : obviously han. members opposite have no ;intention of doing s·a, and in the totality, Mr. Speaker, we must prevail. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR· SPEAKER (Butt): The han. member for Terra Nova. SOME HON. MeMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. member for Terra Nova has the floor . MR. T. LOSE! : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do not know how t.o respond to that unmitigated, unadulterated, unscrupulous, unlearned, narrow, parochial mumble-jumble. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear . M..~. I,. STIRLING: Now you are going to get it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The han. member for Terra Nova has the floor. MR. T. LUSB: Mr. Speaker, I do not know how many times that members on this han. side of the House are going to have to stand in their place and say where they stand on this particular issue, where they stand with respect to offshore ownership. 7542 ~

- --~ . - .... ___ ............ ~-- -----· ... _. ,· .. December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2818 ow - 1 MR. T. LUSH: I have stood in this House now, Mr. Speaker, on several occasions to indicate where I stand. I have heard every hon. member here rise in his place to say where they stood individually. Not'l, Mr. Speaker, I will say it again.I do not know what I am supposed to do, whether I am supposed to go down Water Street carrying a plaque indicating where I stand or whether I am going to have to go to the Stadium or just what I am going to have to do, Mr.

Speaker, to indicate once and for all where we stand on this particu- lar issue. And, Mr. Speaker - MR. F. STAGG: Tell him to oppose the federal government. Do you oppose the federal government? MR. SPEAKER (Butt): I will say in time; I have twenty-five minutes or so and I will say it in precise language. I will say it in unemotional terrns, .Mr. Speaker; I will say it, Mr. Speaker, without accusing anybody on either side of the House of being unpatriotic. I will say it, Mr. Speaker, without attaching degrees of oatriotism to hon. members in this particular House. Because I be- lieve, Mr.

Speaker, that all hon. members in this House are patriotic. I do not believe that there are people in this House who are not patriotic. What a lot of nonsense! So, Mr. Speaker, I will not deal at that level, I will not deal with that kind of nonsense. But, Mr. Speaker, be it known to all members of this House and let the people of Newfound­ land know th~we believe that this Province owns its off- shore resources. We believe in that, Mr. Speaker, we believe that this Province owns its offshore resources. How many times do we have to say it? 7.543 -!

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2818 DW - 2 MR. T. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, I believe that this Province owns its offshore resources. And, Mr. Speaker, how many times do we have to say it? I wonder are the press quoting us on it? I do not know. Are ~~e press "uotinq us? MR. STIRLING: MR. T. LUSH: Yes, they are. Are the press saying that we on this side believe that we own our offshore resources? Does anybody believe - AN HON .MEMBER: MR. T. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I think I have said that enough times so that all hon. members on the other side get that point, that they get it loud and clear that we on ·this side of the House believe that we own the offshore resources. And, Mr. Speaker, I will not get political on it, to go back into history as to what happened in past days and all this sort of thing because I want to get talking about the future. I do not want to get talking about what happened in the past. I want to talk about tomorrow. SO~~ HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. T. LUSH: I want to get away from, Mr.

Speaker, from this low-down political level of ~aking - MR. F. STAGG: They believe that you believe (inaudible) MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR . T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to get down to talking about plans for tomorrow. This·resolution, this is a waste of time to be discussing this particular motion. This is something that we should have discussed three or four years ago. What I would like to be talking about now is what plans the government have with respect to production. This is what I would like to talk about, what infrastructure they have to put in place. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 7S4i.:. ~

I December 10, 1980 Tape No . 2818 OW- 3 ,ME. T. LUSH: 'l'his is nonsense, Mr. Speaker, ma..ldng a political football out of this offshore ownership. A lot of nonsense! A waste of time! How mu ch more time are we going to waste in this hon . House talking about ownership , listening to hon. members aoinq riaht throu ghou t the Province, Mr . Speaker, 9rating and prattling and sabre rattling. Let us get down and have some act .ion! Let us talk about the production stages and let us talk about t:he developmental stages . Let us get do\<Tn to business, Mr .

Speaker, let us get down to business in the d~velopment stages and tell the people of this Province what is going to on . Let us tell the peoP,le. about the plans that we have for the development of this offshore oil ~1d gas. Let us get down to providing manpower training programmes for our young people so that they can get job s in this development stage and in the production stage. 75u5 ~

~- - --~~~--------- ~ .;.· -·- ·-·--......._ .. ~- ... ......_ :.. .~-- ......... ----~- _,.;.~~-- December 10, 1980 MR. G. WARREN: SOME BON. MEMBERS: MR.LUSH: Tape No. 2819 Right on. Hear, hear! EL - 1 Now, Mr. Speaker, to hear all of the talk, to hear hon. members talk you would not know but once we got oil that all of the problems of this Prov­ ince are going to be solved, that once we get offshore oil and gas that there will be no more unemployment problem in this Province. Mr. Speaker, let us tell the truth, let us tell the people the truth about this.

What jobs, how many jobs are going to be made available to our people? What jobs will be created as a result of the development of osshore oil and gas? How many jobs, Mr. Speaker, how many 'jobs? It looks like, Mr. Speaker, from the best information that is available,that in a major oil development that the most we could expect is 7,000 jobs, Mr.Speaker. That is counting spinoff. 7,000 jobs and to hear hon.mernbers talking you would not know that they were talking about 700,000 jobs, to hear them talking about it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.!· MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, the kind of re- solution that we should be debating today is not the ownership; the Provincial Government should have that taken care of. They should have had ~~at taken care of by now. MR. FLIGHT: They have a mandate for it and do not know· how to do it. MR. LUSH: And they should be, as I have said before, presenting resolutions and discussion in this Rouse about the develop­ ment plans, their plans for development and letting the people of Newfoundland know what they are doing so that we will reap the maximum benefits from that onshore and offshore.

That is the kind of activity that we should be engaged in no,~, that is 75L8 "'!

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2819 EL - 2 MR. LUSH: kind of debate, that is the kind of worthwhile and practical and intelligent debate we should be now dealing with. But, Mr. Speaker, it is all a red herring, that is what it is. It is a red herring, it is a smoke screen. It is just diversionary tactics by this govern­ ment, Mr. Speaker, it is just diversionary tactics, Mr. Speaker, to take public attention away from the lack of performance by this government. That is what ·it is. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: ~ailing to deal, Mr.

Speaker, with the outrageous, disgraceful high unemployment levels in this Province. And to hear the minister come in, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour (J.Dinn), to hear him come in and talk about 9,500 jobs, 9,500 jobs. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is what all of this is. Just a red herring, just a red herring. As I have said before, to hear the han. Minister of Labour and Manpower come in and to all of a sudden do a turn about face on two major issues in this respect. Han. members will recall last year that the han. minister in this House denied here that the Premier promised 40,500 jobs.

He denied it, he denied it. Yesterday, of course, because we created 9,500 - not created because there was an increase in the labour force because there was an increase ove:t the period in question. Because there was an increase of 9,SOO,he all of a sudden says now the Premier promis:ed i·t and we have gone 9, 50 0 towards meeting that target of 4a,soa jobs. On the same day the Minister of Labour and Manpower repudiated Statistics Canada, repudiated Statistics Canada. All of a sudden he is believing in them, SOME. RDN. MEMBERS : Oh ., oh! MR.

LUSH: - he is believing in them nmiT. ,, Well, the Minister cannot have it both ways, he cannot have it both ways. Here we have turn about face on two issues, two issues­ one,he repudiated Statistics Canada,said that the Premier did not 7547

,___ ,~.......__- -- ........ ~-- .... .........-:-- ........ --- ·~·- ...... -~ .. - _..:,.:._ _ _;.., ___ ~· --- --~.:..__. December lQ, 1980 Tape No. 2819 EL - 3 MR. LUSH: promise 40,500 job s. Yesterday, he turned about face, believes lr:. Statistics ~anada no>-.r, bel ­ ieves in that and says that the Premier did promise 40,500 jobs. 1fell, ~!r. Speaker, why will not the minister get up and tell the hon . members that that was a collossal bluff, this creation of 40,500 new jobs . Let me tell you what the Premier did-because any member here, any member in this Bon.

House can go out and make this kind of promise to his constituents during election and be pretty accurate and ~~us come up with a commitment on the promise - what the Premier did , you see, was to take an average of the jobs that were created over the past five years. That can be done very accurately r 7SlB ~

December 10,1980 Tape No. 2820 ~.H-1 MR. LUSH: the natural growth in the economy 1 and you will find out that over the past six or seven years that we have had, that the growth of employment , the nurrillers of people in employment increases by about anywhere between six and eight thousand. So , of course, you project that into the future and you put a few figures on it for probably a little more growth in the economy, you put a little more on that and you can average it out to nine thousand, you multiply that by five and you get forty-five thousand jobs and you cannot go wrong, you cannot go wrong.

But it is not forty thousand or forty-five thousand new jobs, Mr. Speaker, it is just the natural growth in the economy. If the Premier dropped dead , if anybody dropped dead that still would happen. It would just flow just like a river. ~.ffi. FLIGHT: It might happen quicker. It might come quicker then. M...~.LUSH: It is just the natural growth in the economy. And for somebody to stand up here and to say because there are 9,500 more people in the labour force in November or October of this year than there were in October of last year and to say that the government created 9,500 new jobs, ~1r.

Speaker, is nothing but a colossal bluff, a colossal bluff. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is what we should be talking about, that is what we should be talking about. I would hope that the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) will get up in his place today and say how reliable these statistics are now in view of the outricrht condemnation that he leveJed ', at these statistics last year. Last year, of course, last year the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manoower would not dare look at the labour force statistics particularly with respect to the rate of unemployment, he would not look at that at all.

He would not look at that at all last 75i..Q 7

December 10,1980 Tape No. 2820 AH-2 MR.LUSH: year because we were up around fourteen and fifteen per cent for the whole year. And what he was using last year as the measurement , what he was using last year as the measurement of growth in the economy , of course, was the employment ratio, that is what he wa? using last year, . the employment ratio.

But this year he has forgotten about that now and come in with this great,startling news from Statistics Canada that between the period,I believe it was,of October of last year-or January of last year, I am sorry, and October of this ¥ear,-~ nine month period 1that we have 9,500 jobs and holding that up as getting closer to the target promised by the Premier of 40,500 jobs. Well,I can tell the people. of Newfoundland now. that they will get th .e 40,500 jobs but it was not in the context in which the Premier promised it.

The people of this Province believe that the Premier was going to, ~hat was promising them 40,500 new jobs, 40,500 jobs in addition to the natural growth that takes place in the economy. That is what the people of this Province believe. MR. FLIGHT: That is what they were promised. MR. LUSH: Well,I hope, Mr. Speaker, I have been successful in exposing that for what it was worth. Mr.

Speaker, I believe that these are the kinds of issues that we should be talking about today and not this resolution relating to ownership, not this, but we should be talking about the other plans down the road,as the Premier is so prone to say, down the road. What is going to happen , Mr. Speaker, in the developmental stages?What is going to happen in the production stages? Are we training our people, our young Newfoundlanders so ~~at they can get the jobs on these offshore oil rias ~nd on the jobs that are going to accrue on the onshore? Do we 75c;n 7

-l l 1 l .. December 10 1 1980 Tape No •. 2820 AH-3 MR. LUSH: have the manpower training programmes in for this , Mr. Speaker,other than setting up these foolish protectionist policies, local preference? Our people do not want a protect~onist policy. Our people want to be provided with training, to oe provided with training so that they can go out there and get those jobs. That is what our people want, Mr.Speaker. That is what our people want 7 7551 ?

~ .... ___ ---• a•< ~"'- ..._ ,, _.~ •••·-~· --- .. ~~----·-'--~• December 10, 1980 Tape 2821 MB - 1 MR. T. LUSH: to set up an extensive training programmes that our young people are crying for so that they can get jobs for which they qualify. That is what we want, Mr. Speaker. MR. G. FLIGHT: To get them in Alberta. They are going out there by the droves and going to wcrk in Alberta and competing with Albertans and getting the jobs. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, what are we talking about?

The amount of time that we have spent on this non-issue, on this non-issue, instead of talking about 1 as I have said before, employment strategies, instead of talking about plans in the forestry to develop the maximum potential of the forestry, now,Mr. Speaker, that is a topic in itself to talk about what the government is not doing in forestry, what they are not doing in agriculture to get closer to their avowed aim of self-sufficiency, to their proclaimed aim but one in which they are doing nothing, Mr. Speaker, one in which they are doing nothing. Now, Mr.

Speaker, as I have said all of us here stand four square behind the fact that Newfoundland, that the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador owns its 9ffshore resource. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. T. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, we are having difficulty, we are having great difficulty in trying to ascertain where the Premier stands on the issue. We are having great difficulty trying to ascertain where the Premier stands. And as I have suggested before,just last Spring here in this hon.

House he stood and read a speech in which he listed off,I believe, three or four points by which we could resolve this offshore ownership. He talked about the Maritime agreement, we could go that way. He 7552 .:. :7

December 10, 1980 Tape 2821 MB - 2 MR. T. LUSH: talked about a negotiated settlement with Ottawa, he talked about that. And then he talked about some vague thing of extension of boundary. But the one that the Premier at that particular time clearly supported was the negotiated settlement,but now it is reversed again,or he is now of course,because the constitutional debate is on the go,I suppose he figures that this a good way to make some more political mileage out of this particular issue, now we will go and try and ge ·t this into the constitution. Well, Mr.

Speaker, ther~ is nobody on this side who wants anything else but ow~ership of the offshore oil resource. That is what we want, Mr. Speaker, that is what we want for Newfoundland. There is nobody on this side wants less than the maximum benefits from the offshore oil, the maximum benefits, the full benefits, that is what ~e want for the Province. So,let us stop making a political football out of it. Let us get down and do what has got to be done so that we can get on with the planning of the development and production. That is what we should be on to, Mr. Speaker.

Too,too long, too,too long we have been hung up on this offshore ownership and listening to the government making political brownie points on this particular issue, too,too long. And let us get that out of the way, Mr. Speaker.

Let us get it out of the way, let us stop putting forward these nonsense motions and get down to talking about something that will have immediate and real impact for the people of Newfoundland, that will have immediate results for the people who are going to face a hard Winter, for the people out there who are unemplo yed, for the people who de not know how they are going to live this Winter, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 75~ 1

j l j ~ -I l ----..::. ----·· _-..;.~ .... __ ........._ ____ - ~---- ·- ---~--..:. ........ ~-·~· :...·. -... -:.. ....... ~ ·-- -- '_...__, __ ..;.!, •• ---- --·- .. .--.......a ......... -~~~-.,o.;;.,-. --~· •' December 10, 1980 Tape 2821 MB - 3 MR. T. LUSH: For people, ~~- Speaker, that do not know how they are .going to heat their homes this Winter, for people who do not know how they are going to keep food on the table. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) I woul.d like to l!lention to the hon. member his time is up. MR. T. LUSH: Well, Mr. Speaker, fOr the ·se - SOME BON. .MEMBERS : By leave. By leave. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. 'I'. LUSH: For these, Mr. Speaker, and other reasons not mentioned I will be supporting this resolution as amended. SOME HON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Mi;nister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I was not going to speak in this debate. I think everybody on this side knows what .my position is with respect to ownership of off­ shore. Now, Mr. Speaker, I just had to get up to correct 75:1 L +

jlo- _. ___ - ....... _.;:-L..,o __ , -'- • - December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2822 GH-1 MR. DINN: some of the foolish statements made by the hon. member from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush). One of the foolish statements was that it is the normal thing, we get eight or nine thousand jobs anyway in Newfoundland. Eight or nine thousand jobs is the normal thing for us to get in Newfoundland, ;so that is what we qet anyway, we created no new jobs. Well, Mr. Speaker, let us look at a couple of years prior to 1979 and 1980. Let us just have a look and see whether that fact that the hon. member put forth bears any weight at all.

In 1974 over 1973 we went down 3,000 jobs. In 1975 over 1974 we went up 5,000 and, Mr. Speaker, for each year thereafter it v1as 5, 0 0 0 or 4 , 0 0 0 or 5,000. Now, ·;..rhat happened in 1979? Well, Mr. Speaker, for January and February and March of 1979 the unemployment rate in Newfoundland bordered around 20 per cent. In January it was 18.6, I believe; in February it was 20.1; and in March it started to creep. Something happened in March. Everybody in Newfoundland knows what happened last year on March 17th., a great date in the history of Newfoundland, Mr.

Speaker, and from that point on a steady, steady downward trend in the unemployment figures came about, Mr. Speaker. The Premier came out and he said, "Forty thousand new jobs,. forty thousand five hundred new jobs". Well, Mr. Speaker, he was wrong. The Premier was wrong. There were not forty thousand new jobs. There were 9,500 in this year alone, Mr. Speaker, 9,000 last year, Mr. Speaker. In 1979 - now, Mr.

Speaker, we just got on track, just on track, just got into full stride starting in March, and in the remainder of that year we picked up enough such that the average increase in 1979 over 1978 was 9,000 new jobs. He beat his figures in the first year, Mr. Speaker, by some 1,000 jobs, and this year, Mr. Speaker, how are we doing? Well, Mr. Speaker, I outlined it for the hon. members opposite. They do not want to hear it. They do not want 7555 of

I ~ I 1 -..-~.:.·~ ........... December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2822 GE~2 MR. DINN: to believe it. I talk about Statistics Canada and you cannot just look at Statistics Canada for one day or one month and believe them as a gospel but you can take the averages. That is the way you have to do it, and, Mr. Speaker, the averages ~ if you look at Statistics Canada and look at January, last year over January the previous year it was 5,000 jobs. Now, Mr. Speaker, if you look at March it was 13,000; in June, 14,000. Well, I did not get up and make a great to~do about the 14,000 jobs in June. But, Mr.

Speaker, if you take that 5,000 and the 14,000 and you average it out over the ten months that I gave the han. member the figures for, and then Statistics Canada came out the day after I made the statement here in the House, Mr. Speaker, with another 11,000 jobs. Well, you cannot take that. I did not get up here in the House and run off at the mouth about the 11,000 new jobs because, Mr. Speaker, that is a capsule view. That is the fifteenth day of the month when they take that one shot look at the economy and they say what the employment and the unemployment rates are. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I took that and I averaged it. We are still going.. Our employment growth in Newfoundland is still better than any other province in Canada. We had 11,000. I said in L~is House that if we maintained the 9,500 -! average or above that we would be the greatest Province in Canada this year with respect to employment growth. SOME HON. ~~MBERS : Or, Oh! MR. DINN: The hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) does not like it. He does not want to believe it but the statistics are there and, Mr. Speaker, the statistics are there because something was done.

What happened in this Province over the past year, where the jobs came from, I outlined that. I did not get specific. I did not say about the hundreds of jobs that were created onshore with respect 75:18

-~- ........ -- .... --- .. ., -- •. :,.. ____ ..:-.._ --···~ _ _;~ ---~--'··- -~~.1--. -- . __ ._ __ ,__ '· ·-- ~~~~~..;. __ i December 10, ·1980 Tape No. 2822 {;H-2 MR. DINN: to the oil and gas offshore. I just stated · the statistics that I had in my hands, Mr. Speaker, the Stephenville conversion to newsprint, the linerboard mill that was a disaster area, a disaster area, Mr. Speaker, that great mill now, that great economic device that will revive the West Coast of this Province. ~ 75S7

· December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2823 SD - 1 MR. J. DINN: The newsprint mill, that was OP-e area where jobs were created; the Upper Salmon and the Hinds Lake hydro developments where hundreds of jobs were created hl1ere, Mr. Speaker; onshore, as I said, with respect to offshore oil and gas, onshore jobs in the hundreds; offshore - 900 jobs, Mr. Speaker. The hen. member does not want to hear it, 400 jo0s in the spruce budworm reclamation of that timber, Mr. Speaker, 400 jobs there. Something like 1,400 in the past year and a half or two years created by the Rural Developmen ·t Authority. Mr.

Speaker, I could go on but hon. members opposite have heard it four or five times, they do not want to believe it, they keep getting up and trying to weasel their way around the facts but the facts will out, Mr. Speaker, and they stand up in this House today on this resolution and they say how Newfoundland owns its resources. Well that and fifty cents will get them a ride on a Metrobus. What are they doing with Mr. Rompkey? Why does he not believe it?

Why do they have a resolution or a bill before the House in Ottawa now taking away - robbing - 43 per cent of that offshore resource, that same resource that hen. members opposite say we own? Mr.· Speaker, it is a disgrace, it is a political disgrace that people on the opposite. side can flip-flop. We had a member, Mr. Speaker, from BaieVerte- White Bay who just could not take the flip­ flops'anyrnore, he had to come to where Newfoundlanders stand up for Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, he had to cross ~~e House, anunprecedented move.

The man did not want to do it but he just could not live with that kind of hypocrisy, Mr. Speaker, that kind of political hypocrisy in this Province. Yes, Mr. Speaker, the unemployment figures, as I state for November, and I will give it to 7558 : -!

J ·: i J J 1 l 1 1 1 l ·j ·j ,_ .... ____ : --------~ .. ---- December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2823 SD - 2 MR. J. DINN: the hon. member again, we created new jobs because they did not exist last year, 11,000 jobs this Novermber over last November. And the hon. member got up in this House yesterday in Question Period -·· a silly, foolish question - and said, 'Are these new jobs?' Well Mr. Speaker, if they did not exist last year and they do exist this year, they are relatively new, Mr. Speaker~ I mean, you know, one would have to think that they are relatively new.

If we did not have them last November and we have them this November, they are relatively new. Yes, the answer to the han. member's question then and is now that there are 11,000 new jobs. AN HON. MEMBER: And they are less than a year old. MR. DINN: And they are less than a year old, Mr. Speaker. And next year, Mr.Speaker, I will predict for next year-and the Premier has been conservative, I will be conservative also- that next year it will be the same thing - 9,500 more jobs if not 10,000 or 11,000 jobs. It will be the same thing next year, Mr.

Speaker, and I predict that the unemployment figures for next year will be such that they will be bordering on 10 per cent not 14 per cent or not 20 per cent as it was two years ago, Mr. Speaker. It will be bordering somewhere around 10 per cent. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hen. member does not like the statistics. He said, 'I do not like Statistics Canada'. Well 1 the fact of the matter is it is a capsule view.

I never ever said that I did not like Statistics Canada but I said that one shot in one month does not give the picture for the year, it does not give the overall state of the emplo1~ent in the Province and that is what I said to the hen. member.And he got up and he twisted words and twisted the facts as I reported here in this House. And I also said in this House, ~r. Speaker, that the government is not going to create 9,500' government jobs, because that is what the hon. member asked me. He ask me, 'Is the goverr~ent 7 5 ~I~ ~

i- l -1 ---~- .... -------- --- ·--:....... __ .,. _ _,... __ --- ---- -· ----. --- :. ~ .. ___ .... __ ..... ~::~>it~·."'·~ December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2823 SD - 3 MR. J. DINN: going to create 9,500 or 40,500 new government jobs?' And I said, no, there will be no more jobs in the government, there will be a little bit of an increase in government jobs. The jobs will be created based on our resources. Well that is the whole philosophy of this Party, Mr. Speaker, develop the resources and the jobs will come in those resources. So, Mr.

Speaker, the han. member got up and he spoke for thirty minutes talking about foolish facts, he had no background, he said that 9,500 jobs is the norms. I just told him, I just gave him the statistics for the last five years, they average somewhere around 4,000 or 5,000 jobs and now there are 9,500 jobs, Mr. Speaker, and they cannot get away from that fact. And I will stand up here day in and day out and I will just ram her home until they realize that something is happening in Newfoundland. And, Mr. Speaker, that something is great. And Mr.

Speaker, that something is going to happen for the next four or five years or as long as this administration is in power. Mr. Speaker, I rest my case. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : The hon. member for LaPoile. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR . S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words in support of the amendment. Members who have spoken 7SRil ~

December 10,1980 MR. NEARY: Tape No. 2824 AH-1 previously, Mr. Speaker, the last several speakers seemed to have gotten away from the resolution and the amendment to the resolution. The amendment really is what we are debating and an amendment to a private member's resolution brought in by the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson), which would not have been a bad resolution except for the fact that the han. gentleman injected the Progressive Conservative party or the Conservative party in the resolution. And as han. members know this happened once before in this han.

House and I think the Speaker ruled at the time that it had to be removed. AN HON .MEMBER: There was an amendment by the Government House Leader. MR. NEARY: There was an amendment by the Government House Leader. That is right. The han. gentleman just refreshed my memory. They wanted to vote for a resolution and because it was worded in such a way that it brought in partisan politics,well then the Government House Leader moved an amendment and it was adopted by the House.

So there is a precedent for it and what we have done here is we have asked to have the Conservative administration removed from the last, "Therefore

be it resolved." And I think tl:).at is a fair request, Mr. Speaker. So all kinds of items now, all kinds of things have crept into this debate. And when I started out, you know, with the intention to have a few words on this resolution, I wanted to talk about the way the government had handled the offshore question but I am so confused now, my mind is so muddled after listening to the lower strata on the government side - and we just heard one now who just took his seat. Obviously his mind is muddled today. He is beside himself. He does not know what he is saying or doing. He seems to be uptight all the time. 7561

December 10,1980 AN. HON .Ml!:MBER: Mr. NEARY: Tape No. 2824 AH-2 A personal attack. No, it is not a personal attack. The hon. gentleman is the smear artist in this House . .MR. WAR;;<:;:::- Right on. MR.NEARY: The hon. member who just took his seat is rather uptight, Mr.Speaker, and my advice to him is to relax. Relax,because otherwise he is going to do himself some kind of physical harm. fu\1 HON. MEMBER: He must have had a hard night, boy. - .. ~ .

MR.NEARY: Well, I do not know if he had a hard night or not, but I would suggest that he relax a little more and learn how to debate and get the level of debate up to where it should be in this hon. House and not leave the impression that the hon. gentleman is completely ignorant of the facts in this particular matter. Now, Mr. Speaker, I was paying attention ' to the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) and I must say that in all the mumbo-jumbo by the hon. gentleman and all the entertaining remarks made by the hon. gentleman there is something in there that I would like to dwell on briefly.

SOME HON. ~ft.EMBERS : Oh. Oh! MR.NEARY: There was something in there. As a matter of fact the hon. gentleman may be on to something more than he thinks he was on to and actually I was going to mention it in my few remarks. I was going to mention it in my few remarks but the hon. gentleman spoke before I did so he upstaged me a little bit. And that has to do with the bill that was introduced in the House of Commons yesterday. I do not know what the implications are. When I heard about the bill 1 I immediately ~laced a phone call to Ottawa to ask to have the bill sent down to 756? ,· ~

December 10,1980 Tape No . 2824 AH -3 l~.R . NEARY : me immediately because I \·lant to study the bill. I do not know \vhat th-e ramifications of i~ are, the implications, I would think, Mr. Speake• , I wou ld suspect that as a result of that legi slation, if it is adopted by the Parliament of Canada, as a re sult of that the P~ovinee, the provincial government here in this Province will be forcec ,whethec they like it or not, they will be forced to test that legislation in the Supreme Court of Canada. I am not a la\vyer . I am no t a doctor or ~~ academic, 75R 1

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2825 IB-1 MR •. NEARY: I am just an ordinary, common member of this House,but I have my suspicions. The Government of Canada introduced a bill that would give the provinces 75 per cent of revenues from offshore and onshore resources, offshore and onshore,and twenty-five per cent to the Government of Canada. Now that was t~e, if hon. members will recall, that is the agreement that currently exists between the Government of Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: Except (inaudible) . I beg your pardon?

In the same bill they are going to add on a royalty system of 40 per cent of all the profits = MR. NEARY: Well - MR. MORGAN: as well. According to ~ht Federal _r,over~~ent MR. NEARY: Well,the bill goes a little further than a straight seventy-five/twenty-five. I do not know what all the implications of it are, but it merely sets down in law an agreement made with the three Maritime Provinces. As bon. members of the House know our Premier will not have anything to do with the Maritime Provinces. It is a seventy-five/twenty-five deal.

And it also I believe provides where oil and gas companies are not Canadian owned,then the Government of Canada through Petrocan can buy whatever shares are necessary, whatever equity is necessary in the company to make it a Canadian company. And obviously the bill is meant also to help Canadianize ~he oil an~ gas industry. And I am all for that, Mr. Speaker, I am all for it.

But having heard about this legislation and about this bill if I were the Premier of this Province, if I were the Premier, on my way back from New York where he is now down trying to mend some fences-the hon. gentleman has made so many enemies in the international business community and in the financial business community, he has made so many 7.16 4 ./ ~

i I I ( I December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2825 IB-2 MR. NEARY: enemies that now he is down trying to patch up his differences with some of the financial people in New York. I do not know if it is too late for him to make any friends, Mr. Speaker. I believe the tL~e has come in this Province to set up a royal commission, establish a royal commission to try to determine if this Province, if the Premier and the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) have a friend left in the business world. There should be a royal commission to try to find that out, Mr. Speaker.

The han. gentleman in the last eighteen months has made one enemy after the other. And the other day I just jotted down a partial list of those who have been the victim of the Premier's wrath. The Prime Minister of Canada - AN HON. MEMBER: Is this relevant? MR. NEARY: It has to do with this bill, Sir.

The Prime Minister of Canada, the Government of Canada, all the ministers in the Government of Canada, the Province of Quebec, the Economic Council of Canada, Mobil Oil and all the other oil companies drilling off our shore, exploring off Newfoundland and Labrador, the bondholders who put up the money for the development of the Upper Churchill, the financiers of that great union, the Fisherman's Union, has been the victim of the Premier's wrath, John Shaheen, Jim McGrath, a member of Parliament,and Bill Rompkey, Minister of National Revenue. All have felt the brunt of the Premier's attack. AN RON.

MEMBER: Joe Clark. MR. NEARY: And Mr. Clark was also included in that select group there a year or so ago. ':t'hat is only a partial list, Mr. Speaker. And now the hon. gentleman is down in New York trying to mend his fences. God only knows how much damage he has done to this Province. Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland needs friends as well as enemias. I cannot point to one friend that we have in the international business 7565 t

" "'- December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2825 IB-3 MR. NEARY: community or in the international financial community or in the Government of Canada. Here we are asking - we have the Premier 7S5R

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2826 IB-1 MR. NEARY: and his advisors asking the Government of Canada to give us control over the offshore development. And out of the other corner of their mouth they are saying, 'Go jump in the lake. We do not want to have anything to do with you.' It seems to me to be a peculiar way to conduct negotiations. AN HON. MEMBER: Peter Lougheed. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is one friend tnat the Premier of this Province has. There is one friend and that is Mr. Lougheed. Mr. Lougheed has managed to suck him in. Mr. Lougheed has managed to use him. Mr.

Lougheed will own this Province if he keeps going the way he is going, forcing this Province to borrow from the P"e:J:"itacre Fund. MR. THOMS: Two separatists together, boy, two separatists together. MR. NEARY: Mr. Lougheed and our Premier are in bed together and Mr. Lougheed is the gentleman who is seducing our Premier and using him to go out and advocate world prices of Alberta oil, sock it to the consumers here in this Province and then ·'in return we can borrow from his Heritaae Fundand pay whatever the going interest is to Alberta. But what I started out to say before I got carried away there, Mr.

Speaker, was this - and if I was the Premier of this Province before I would set foot in Newfoundland, before I would return from New York I would take a detour, I would buy a ticket to Ottawa and I would sit down with the Prime Minister of this country and I would say, nMr. Prime Minister, what does this legislation mean? What does it mean? Does it mean now that Ottawa is going to take control of the offshore resources because that is what it means to me? Ottawa now - and I mentioned this the other day in this House, Mr. Speaker, and I hav·e no doubt I hastened the Premier's trip to New Yor~ What happened 75R7 ~

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2826 IB-2 MR. NEARY: between Mobil and the Premier of this Province the early part of the "~<leek? What happened? What I think did happen was· that Mobil threatened to take the P=ovince to court over the offshore ownership. The Premier got his back up, got his dander up as he usually does, went berserk, went off his head and said, "You take us to court and l'le will cancel your permit". And Mobil's answer to that is, "Well,go ahead and cancel the permit, we have a federal permit and we will operate under that". And, Mr. Speaker, do not think that they cannot do it. Both permits, Mr.

Speaker, are equal. One is just as good as the other. The Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) knows that. The federal permit at the moment is just as good as t~e provincial permit. ~1R. BARRY : No • MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon! It is just as good hecause, Mr . Speaker - 1~R. BAR~:.. : You would like to think so. MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: AN HON • MEMBER: decision. - we do not know - You made them just as good. You supported the federal MR. NR~RY: Mr. Speaker, look,let me aak the hon. gentleman a question. If Mobil decides tomorrow to say I "To hell with your permits, t·1r.

Province 1 we are operating under a federal permit and we will make our proposals for producing oil on the Grand Banks to the Government of Canada. · They will stick a destroyer out there that will cost $4,000 or $5,000 a day to keep her there and they will take control of the oil field. What is this Province going to do? Send out the Newfoundland Constabulary? What are they going to do? Send out the Catherine? ~-~ R. HANCOCK: You got to get permission from the feds to send her out. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what will they do? 756R

Dec~ 10, 1980 Tape No. 7.826 IB -3 MR. NEARY: Send out the Newfoundland Constaculary, the water bombers, the Norma and Gladys to try .to take back the oil field? Mr . Speaker, this is a very serious rr.atter and ~~e hon. gentleman may have been on to something more than he imagined when he mentioned it . Because I have a feeling t.'lat t.he Province now as a result of this legislation will have no choice, I would say their bands will be forced, they have no choice once this ?t;[iQ ~ ~

December 10,1980 Tape No. 2827 AH-1 MR. NEARY: legislation goes through the Parliament of Canada but to challenge the legislation in the Supreme Court of Canada, something that they should have done four or five years ago. They should have followed through with the preparation of their case but now they have got themselves boxed in. They have got themselves boxed in. They cannot play chess as good as they thought they could. They cannot play checkers as good as they thought they could and now they have to move or be blown. And that is what I think is happening at the moment, the power play is on.

The oil companies are making their move, they are getting desperate , they are getting desperate to get the ownership question settled because they cannot set their production plans in operation. They do not know who they are dealing with. They are not worried about provincial reoulations, they are not worried about our little low-lifed ~inister of Manpower (Mr. Dinn), they are not worried about the Premier and the regulations in ~~is Province. Only one thing - MR. BENNETT: I say. MR. NEARY: No, I am talking about the oil companies.

There is only one thing they are worried about and concerned about and that is who owns the offshore? Who owns it? Once they determine that, Mr. Speaker, then they know where they are going and I would say now that Newfoundland, poor old little Newfoundland now is getting caught in the squeeze, the power play is on,and I am sorry to have to say that, I am sorry to have to say it. It is this government's fault. So as I started to sa~ i·f I were the Premier now I would leave New York, I would say, 'Alright 1 I will cancel whatever meetings I have_' and I would go up to Ottawa and I would say, 'l'1r.

Prime Minister, 7570

December 10,1980 Tape No. 2827 AH-2 MR. NEARY: when you were in Newfoundland prior to the last federal election you made a statement, you made a speech at Memorial University~and I now refer to it as the University Formula. We were all there and ~e all heard it - you made a statement that Newfoundland would get 100 per cent of the revenue of offshore resources until such time as we became a have Province ,1 in other words until sue~ time as we would be no longer entitled to equalization grants. 'You made that statement.

Now, with this legislation going through the House of Commons in Ottawa,does that mean now that you are going to renege on that deal? Beacusethat was a pretty good deal, that was one of the best deals we are going to get. And the Government of Canada and the Prime Minister was willing to give us control of the resource so that we could control the pace of ~~e development offshore, that was a part of the deal. But now does that go down the tube, down the drain? That is what I would like to know. Does this legislation supercede the University Formula outlined prior to the last federal election?

That is the big question I would like to get answ€red right now, Mr. Speaker.

And I would like for some of the heavies on the government side - never mind the lower strata, never mind the lower form of life over there who want to talk about foolish nonsense. - let t~e heavies get up now let the President of the Council, the Government House Leader - I mean,we may not like him but he is well informed on these matters- let him get up now and tell us where we stand and where we are going and what the next move is going to oe because I have a feeling, I have a feeling that this move that was made in Ottawa yesterday is a substantial move that is going to land us in the Supreme Court of Canada. 7571 : ~

.. ·--_.;.. ....... .._. __ _.._,._, __ .. ,__ ..:~ December 10,1980 Tape No. 2827 AH-3 !~.R. STAGG: It is an arrogant move. MR.NEARY: It is not an arrogant move,it is a move - Mr. Speaker, you can call it arrogant, you can call it what you like,but it is a matter that comes under- SO!-!E HON .MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.SPEAKER {Butt): Order, please! MR.NEARY: Let us not get petty partisan politics in it at this particular point in time. It is to serious a matter. Newfoundland stands to loose too much. We stand to gain .quite a bit.

Let us carry on our negotiations without calling news conferences, without calling press conferences and pumping out news releases, let us forget all that. We are now reaching the crossroads in these negotiations and in this · matter , ;·:2 are reaching the crossroads. It is a very 757? .:. ~

December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2828 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY: serious matter indeed and we have to get it cleared up quickly. And I want to know from the heavi~s on the government side, where do we go from here? SOME HON. MEMBERS : ' Oh, oh. ~~. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! The hon. member for LaPoile has the floor. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Yes, I know, I am winding up my few remarks but I want to forget the politics of this.

It is a good resolution, we would like to see it amended, we are going to support it,but I would like for the heavies on the government side to get up and tell us the implications of this and not get nasty about it, not play politics with it and - MR. HANCOCK: Well, they cannot do that now 'Steve'. You are asking too much. MR. S. NEARY: - tell us what the next move is·. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am talking to the heavies. I am not talking to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), I am talking to the hea·vyweights on the gover~~ent side - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: - people who are knowledgeable in these matters and know what they are talking about. We have to depend o~he government and the people of this Province have to depend on the government for information on this matter, Mr. Speaker - MR. MORGAJ.'l: (Inaudible) the Liberal Party of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - and this is a good opportunity while we are debating this resolution to get an update because "'t:;'~ I ., I -· ~

-------- December 10, 1980 Tape No. 2828 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: I think this was a very substantial - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: Your Honour,I think, will agree that this was a very substantial move that was made in Ottawa yesterday and I would like to know what the counter