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May 6,

SOCIAL

SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant

to Standing Order 68, Jim Bennett, MHA for St. Barbe, substitutes for Lisa

Dempster, MHA for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.

The

Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Littlejohn):

(Inaudible) this evening,

we needed the election of a Vice-Chair.

We did not get to that on our first meeting, so I am wondering if we

could have a nomination.

Mr.

Pollard.

MR. POLLARD:

I nominate Stelman Flynn.

CHAIR:

Mr. Flynn is nominated as

Vice-Chair.

Do I

have a seconder? Mr. Little.

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Contra-minded?

Carried.

Congratulations, Mr. Flynn.

Good

evening, everyone. Welcome,

Minister, and welcome to your staff.

It is a pleasure for you to be here in front of the Committee tonight.

What I am going to do first, Minister, I am going to ask our Committee to

introduce themselves and then I am going to ask you you can either introduce

them or have your staff introduce themselves.

One

thing that I will ask that you and your staff do, before you comment, please

state your name and your position and wait for the red light to show so we get

it recorded in Hansard downstairs and everybody will be appreciative.

The

other thing, if you have cellphones, please try to keep them away from the mics

because it runs interference and our friends downstairs sometimes get a

squealing in their ears. We do not

want that, so that will be great.

I think

we will begin with you, Stelman, and we will run across the front and then we

are back to Tony and we will introduce ourselves.

Stelman.

MR. FLYNN:

Stelman Flynn, Humber East.

MS C. BENNETT:

I am just here observing; I

did not think I could talk so

CHAIR:

No, you cannot, but you can

introduce yourself.

MS C. BENNETT:

Cathy Bennett, District of

Virginia Waters.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Jim Bennett, MHA, St. Barbe.

MS ROGERS:

Gerry Rogers, I work for the

good people of St. John's Centre.

MS WILLIAMS:

Susan Williams, Researcher.

MR. CORNECT:

Tony Cornect, MHA of the

great and cultural District of Port au Port.

MR. LITTLE:

Glen Little, MHA, Bonavista

South.

MR. POLLARD:

Kevin Pollard, MHA, Baie

Verte Springdale district.

CHAIR:

I am Glenn Littlejohn, Chair,

and I am from the District of Port de Grave.

Minister, if you wish to introduce yourself and have your staff introduce

themselves, off you go.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Thank you.

I am

Sandy Collins, MHA for Terra Nova district and Minister Responsible for Child,

Youth and Family Services. I will

begin over here with my deputy minister, if you want to

MS COCHRANE:

My name is Rachelle Cochrane. I am

the Deputy Minister, CYFS.

MS O'BRIEN:

I am Donna O'Brien, Assistant

Deputy Minister for Service Delivery and Regional Operations, CYFS.

MS TILLEY:

Jean Tilley, ADM for Corporate Services, CYFS.

MS SHALLOW:

Michelle Shallow, Director of Child Protection and In Care with CYFS.

MR. GRANDY:

Paul Grandy, Departmental Controller for CYFS.

MS RODGERS:

Paula Rodgers, Executive Director, CYFS.

MS O'NEILL:

I am Melony O'Neill, Director of Communications for CYFS.

MS PEREIRA:

Susan Pereira, Manager of Human Resources with the Human Resource Secretariat.

CYFS is my client.

MR. OSBORNE:

Ryan Osborne, Minister Collins's Executive Assistant.

CHAIR:

Thank you, everyone, and

welcome.

For

Committee members and observers, we are beginning the book of Estimates on 15.3,

Child, Youth and Family Services.

Minister, I open with you to bring opening remarks.

You have fifteen minutes, or anything less than that is appreciated.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will

not take my fifteen minutes, I assure you.

Good

evening, everyone. It is great to

see everyone join us here tonight. I

cannot imagine any better place to be tonight than with you folks, and certainly

the pleasure is all ours.

If I can

just say a little bit about the department because I think it would be important

for everyone attending to have a better picture.

The creation of a new department focused solely on children, youth and

family services was announced in Budget 2009-2010, and between March 2011 and

March 2012 staff transitioned from the four regional health authorities.

acknowledged the systematic issues in Child Protection Services which existed in

our Province and set out to lay a strong foundation to address these issues

through the development of a new provincial organizational model, which

continues to be implemented to this day.

addition to the budget's transferred from the four regional health authorities,

as part of its transition of services, our government has made a net investment

of $38 million into programs and services for children, youth, and their

families since 2009-2010, bringing the department's budget to $142 million in

2015-2016.

During

2010-2011, we developed a framework for the transition of employees, budgets,

assets, and services from health authorities.

We successfully transitioned approximately 700 staff, transferred and

created appropriate budgets for inclusion in the Estimates, transferred all

assets, and information technology resources were implemented.

As of

March 2015, our department operates in fifty-five offices throughout the

Province and has 750 permanent positions.

Our department has made significant progress since its inception and I

would like to highlight several of those for you now, if you would indulge.

introduced progressive new legislation entitled Children and Youth Care and

Protection Act, 2011 focusing on the best interests of children and youth.

We developed new policies and a Protection and In-Care Policy and

Procedures Manual to support the legislation and streamline the delivery of

protection and in-care services across the Province.

introduced a new Continuum of Care Strategy, developed to enhance placement

options for children and youth in need of out-of-home care by better supporting

existing homes and developing new placement resources.

Request for Proposals for contracted staffed residential placement resources, or

Level 4 as they are commonly referred, to support children and youth with highly

complex needs was issued in spring 2013 and contracts were awarded in March 2014

for over 101 beds. In May 2014, an

additional RFP was issued and contracts were awarded in July 2014.

Since July, an additional forty beds have been made available to respond

to the emerging Level 4 needs.

Our new

Adoption Act, 2013 received Royal Assent in December 2013.

The new legislation clarifies the law respecting adoption; assists in

streamlining and expediting the adoption process; and aligns with the principles

of the Children and Youth Care and Protection Act, where appropriate.

The act also provides for adult adoptions and enhanced post-adoption

services.

We have

begun the process of developing and implementing a new, comprehensive assessment

and case management framework for Child Protection Services.

This new framework, entitled Structured Decision Making, uses a series of

processes to help social workers assess families and make critical decisions in

the life of a case ranging from when it is in the best interest of the child to

return to their parents' care to when a family no longer requires protective

intervention services.

MS ROGERS:

(Inaudible).

MR. S. COLLINS:

The SDM, the Structured

Decision Making?

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. S. COLLINS:

It is in effect.

OFFICIAL:

It is in development.

MR. S. COLLINS:

It is not adopted yet, I

guess.

OFFICIAL:

No.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Okay.

spring 2013, we invested more than $400,000 to expand the Supporting Youth with

Transitions pilot program Province wide in order to provide more youth with

hands-on interventions and supports that will help empower them to live

independently as adults. This

program provides young people who are receiving services under the Department of

Child, Youth and Family Services with the opportunity to avail of additional

supports as they prepare for adulthood.

In terms

of Aboriginal programming, we are addressing recruitment and retention through a

number of measures including: implementing targeted eligibility lists for more

efficient recruitment in Labrador, implementing creative measures such as a

Community of Natuashish Service Enhancement Program to fly-in and fly-out

professional staff, enhancing the Labrador benefits package for professional

staff living in coastal Labrador communities, and more manageable workloads.

November 2012, a Memorandum of Understanding was signed between our department

and the Nunatsiavut Government and Innu First Nation leaders, Sheshatshiu Innu

First Nation and Mushuau Innu First Nation, in recognition of an innovative

service delivery approach being needed in Aboriginal communities.

The MOUs focus on helping to improve planning around the safety and

well-being of children and youth, as well as enhanced service co-ordination and

delivery in the Innu and Inuit communities.

We also

made a commitment to more manageable caseloads for social workers with the ratio

of one social worker to twenty cases, and have added over fifty new permanent

front-line social worker positions to help reach this goal since the department

was created.

Budget

2015-2016 allows for the creating of six new front-line positions in Labrador.

On a provincial level, we have now met the organizational commitment of a

1 to 20 ratio for social workers to caseload since the multi-year plan was

announced in Budget 2012.

As you

can see, a considerable amount of work has been accomplished by my department in

a few short years. We will now

endeavor to begin a review of our legislation in light of our experiences over

the last several years, and make any necessary amendments based on our findings.

At the

end of the day I am sure we all share the same common goal, the safety and best

interests of the children and youth in our Province.

Now I will be happy to answer any and all of your questions.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Just prior to going to Jim, I

am going to ask the Clerk to call the first subhead please.

CLERK (Ms Hammond):

Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Jim.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Why are we starting on page

CHAIR:

Page 15.3.

That is the first page. I am

sorry, Jim, if I confused you, subhead 1.1.01.

MR. J. BENNETT:

No, but the page before says

Child, Youth and Family Services, the Hon. Sandy Collins, Minister, 95 Elizabeth

Avenue. I assume that is what we are

here for.

There

are a number of headings there, so why are we just running through this?

Are we going to ignore those totals or what are we going to do?

CHAIR:

No, I am sorry.

I missed the first page Jim, so that is my fault.

I apologize.

Do you

have opening remarks and questions?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Minister, over the last few

years the overall budget of the department has declined by quite a substantial

amount. What was the cause of the

decline? Have some services been

moved? What has happened?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Thank you.

There

have been a number of changes, of course, since the inception of the department,

right from the very beginning coming over from the RHAs.

When that was transitioned over, since that period we were able to look

at the positions that came over and see which positions would be best suited

towards the Department of CYFS. Some

of course that came over, I think you will see in later years we were able to

eliminate those and create more front line services.

There

has been an ebb and flow from the creation of the department.

Which year are you talking about in particular?

Are you talking about from last year to this year?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Well from last year and the

year before, if you follow the numbers through, it seems they have gone down

quite a bit. I am wondering if some

services were moved into another department, or if they are still being offered?

If they went to, for example, Justice or if it went to Health and

Community Services? Is it the same

department that we are talking about?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Something to recognize and

something you are aware of course is with Education and Early Childhood

Development, a portion of that new department that was recently created took

Early Childhood Education out of CYFS.

Now that resides in Education.

That was a total of sixty-one positions.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

What proportion of the budget did that make up?

MR. S. COLLINS:

The sixty-one positions, with

regard to Early Childhood Education?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Whatever was

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I am trying to follow year by

year to see what we have today that may have moved someplace else.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Right.

If I may, the restructuring of Early Childhood Education resulted in

about $48 million.

MR. J. BENNETT:

So $14 million of services

MR. S. COLLINS:

No, $48 million.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Forty-eight million dollars,

okay.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Approximately sixty-one

positions?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Sixty-one positions, yes.

MR. J. BENNETT:

When you compare the salary

details on the attached

Summary of Salary Details in

Schedule 1, is that why the

number drops from 812 down to 750?

CHAIR:

Just so we are clear, Jim,

are we still on the front page where it says Hon. Sandy Collins, Child, Youth

and Family Services, or are we now into 15.3, General Administration?

MR. J. BENNETT:

I think this is the

department generally, because we are being asked to vote a Gross Expenditure of

$155,349,000.

CHAIR:

Okay.

We are on the front page, Minister; the very first page with the total

Gross Expenditure of $155,349,000.

Rachelle?

MS COCHRANE:

If I could, the majority of those funds are related to the transfer of the early

childhood program to the Department of Education.

He is referring, I think, to

Schedule 1 in the Salary Details book.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Yes.

MS COCHRANE:

Yes, and again, throughout our budget we will give you a detailed accounting for

the changes in the actual numbers through time.

The majority of those numbers, sixty-one positions, are associated with

those gone to the Department of Education.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

So, Deputy Minister, you would know the backup for this because there are

only a handful of pages here, and it is a pretty substantial department.

To say we can deal with $150 million and we have five or six or seven

pages without much detail it just gives us totals.

I think the questions on Estimates would be pretty much meaningless if we

were bound by just these seven pages.

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

Mr. Bennett, if I could, the minister is prepared to talk about the programs

that are associated with each item, so it may look like three pages in the

Budget document. He will articulate

the positions according to each division, the programs that are within those

divisions, and the amount of money per program.

You will get a very comprehensive brief on each of those Salary Details

today.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

When you look at the very first line it says, Executive and Support

Services, $8,320,600. What is that?

Who are they?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Executive Support you said,

Jim?

MR. J. BENNETT:

This is on page

CHAIR:

The first page it says,

Executive and Support Services.

Minister, the total is $8,320,600.

So we have not moved into I guess we have moved into 1.1.01 Minister's Office

and Executive Support 1.2.01, both of those combined.

I think that is where we are.

MS ROGERS:

Jim, have you turned the

page?

MR. J. BENNETT:

No, I have not.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I am just on the front page.

This is what is condensed, I am just asking

MR. S. COLLINS:

So Jim if I can just clarify,

you were asking why the Estimates were up by $345,000? Was that the question?

MR. J. BENNETT:

No.

There is a figure on the very first page.

I think if it had a number it would be 15.1 probably.

It says Executive and Support Services, $8,320,600.

It is a current account. I

ask: What is that?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

If I could speak to that.

Sorry, we did not deal with I apologize, we did not prep for the front

page of this document, but I will give you the recap of what is in here.

Executive and Support Services accounts for our Corporate Services that support

all of CYFS regional support delivery, so it would be our IT, our people

involved in HR, and our finance folks, all those.

It would involve our executive and it would also involve the minister's

office.

This is

the group that is kind of the core provincial headquarters office, for lack of a

better term. They support all of our

fifty-five offices.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Jim, also, we have those

broken down separately with regard to the services that Rachelle just mentioned.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

Service Delivery; what is that?

Is that social workers, or contractors, or rent?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

Service Delivery accounts for

our regional office structure. The

bulk of our employees are in our regional office.

They would be delivering the front services to our clients.

If I could continue, the Direct Client Services would be funding to

groups like foster parents; individuals who need financial support to help care

for the children who are in our custody.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Private third party

contractors would be included there?

MS COCHRANE:

It is all in there, and then

we have the detailed accounting in that

section when we get to that in our

Estimates.

MR. J. BENNETT:

When we go down further there

is revenue of $13,544,000. It is

nice to see revenue, but where is it coming from?

MR. S. COLLINS:

That is from the federal

government. We have an agreement in

place with the federal government with regard to our First Nations.

So we would be reimbursed for services provided to them.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

Is this primarily in Labrador or is it some on the Island as well?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Labrador.

MR. J. BENNETT:

On the next page 15.3, the

Salaries are at $253,400. Who is

employed with that amount?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

You want positions, you say?

Sorry.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Yes, please.

MR. S. COLLINS:

That would be the minister,

the executive assistant, constituency assistant, and secretary.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Would you say that is a

fairly static number, a number that would be easy to predict?

MR. S. COLLINS:

I guess the only difference

would be, of course, if you had an EA or a CA or a secretary come in that would

be on a different pay scale. If

someone has been there thirty years compared to three years or whatever the

case. So that salary adjustment, but

otherwise those positions would be fairly static, I would assume.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Last year $235,100 was

budgeted and revised to $252,900, which is not a huge difference; but if it is a

fairly consistent number, why wouldn't it be forecasted at the beginning of the

year, to be fairly accurate?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Primarily, that is due to the

increased salary of new employees who were on different steps, as I had said

earlier, pay levels that were originally budgeted for, as well as overlap

between the positions. So, while

employees were on summer vacation.

For

example, the deputy minister's secretary filled in for a minister's secretary.

Those would add up to that small amount of money.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

So if

someone comes to replace an existing person and their pay is higher, then

obviously you do not know who you are going to get from the beginning of the

year to fill that positon, so you do not know how much you are going to get, you

just get a qualified person

MR. S. COLLINS:

Right.

Well, we know the realm. Like

you said, it is somewhat static, but it cannot be brought down to a perfect

number. There is going to be some

variance.

MR. J. BENNETT:

For Employee Benefits, $5,000

was budgeted, which seems relatively low but then it turned out to be only $200.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes.

No conferences attended. So

that would apply to those positions I just mentioned to you: the minister, EA,

CA, and secretary.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay, so that Employee

Benefits is actually for conferences?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Amongst other things, but I

understood conferences.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Transportation and

Communications, $50,000 was budgeted and it is $22,500.

Why did it come in so low?

MR. S. COLLINS:

We were somewhat lower, but

it was trying to reduce spending and try to find better efficiencies.

So we kind of watched that closely.

On a

go-forward basis we are going to try to do the same, but knowing at the

beginning of the year it is hard to say you are going to come in at the exact

number again. Of course that would

be our intention; however, it was through efficiencies and just watching the

budget.

MR. J. BENNETT:

So it was discretionary and

what you did not have to spend you did not spend, so you saved money?

MR. S. COLLINS:

To a certain degree.

MR. J. BENNETT:

You do not want to be limited

to $22,500 this year and find that you end up with $30,000.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Right.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Some would say you went over

budget.

MR. S. COLLINS:

I would rather say we were

efficient and saved some as opposed to limiting ourselves.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I think we can all live with

that.

Supplies, I suppose that is the same thing?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Same situation, yes.

MR. J. BENNETT:

You are just careful with the

money, and Purchased Services.

Under

Executive Support, Salaries last year $899,400 was budgeted and it came in at

$1,094,400. That is a fair bit over.

What happened there?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Those were to two positions

added during 2014-2015.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Would you like me to go into

a little bit further detail with regard to that, Jim?

MR. J. BENNETT:

So you added two positions.

What were the positions?

MR. S. COLLINS:

An Executive Director and a

Senior Policy Analysis. You will be

happy to know those people were primarily hired to deal with the Child and Youth

Advocate.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Are any of them with you

tonight?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Paula is, yes and doing some

great work, might I say.

MR. J. BENNETT:

What types of issues were

they dealing with?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Those two positions?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Yes.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Of course, you know, as we know, the

recommendations came forward and as I spoke about earlier in Question Period

with regard to your question there has been quite a bit of work done with regard

to the back and forth with recommendations, but more importantly with making

sure that all available information is put forward to the Advocate.

Someone needs to be there to collect information.

For

example, if there is an incident that happens in the department, we make her

aware. As soon as we are aware, she

is aware. Then she requires some

follow-up information that can get quite complicated, especially when you have

to go back and there are boxes of files.

So we need someone to disseminate that information and be able to do that

in a very timely fashion.

So prior

to those two positions being created, that was a bit of a task because of course

you were taking people from other positions and trying to get them to do that

work. We wanted somebody dedicated

to be able to meet that need.

MR. J. BENNETT:

So was this for the older

filing issues?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Not necessarily, it could be

on a go-forward basis as well.

Take

recommendations, for example not recommendations, sorry.

When the Advocate does a study, when she releases studies on different

circumstances and we have seen a number of them in the past she would do an

investigation. She would have to

work hand in hand with the department to make sure she can get the relevant

information.

wanted to have someone on the ground in the department that could meet her

needs. Someone she could call and

she could get the information she needs quickly.

Because that is what we had felt and heard in the past that she was not

able to get it as quickly as she wanted, so we wanted to make sure the resources

were there to meet her needs. I

think it has been working very well since.

MR. J. BENNETT:

So did this relate to the

Advocate's office or any other issues?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Primarily the Advocate's

office.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I appreciate that the issues

are not easy to deal with

MR. S. COLLINS:

No, not at all.

MR. J. BENNETT:

the glue sniffing and the

gas. I mean, it is a whole range of

social issues that are not easy to deal with, even if you had tons of money.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Right.

MR. J. BENNETT:

They are difficult issues.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Some of these investigations

I have seen first-hand literally boxes and boxes and boxes banker boxes full

of information. So, it can be quite

complicated and lengthy.

CHAIR:

Gerry.

MS ROGERS:

First of all, I want to thank

you very much for coming this evening.

I think it was a beautiful day out there, wasn't it?

I have been in here, so I am not quite sure.

I also

want to thank you for the incredible work that you do.

I know that this is a very, very, very difficult area, particularly the

area of child protection. I have a

number of cases that come to my office just from the small community of St.

John's Centre, so it is just a fraction of what all you folks are dealing with

and what your staff is dealing with.

I know it is a very difficult area and also very rewarding when you know that

you are able to help people, some of the most vulnerable people in our Province.

So thank you for your work, and thank you for coming this evening.

I just

have two points of clarification before we move on.

Sandy, you were saying that the salaries, it is a minister, an executive

assistant, and the CA; do you have a CA out of the minister's office as well?

MR. S. COLLINS:

No, I do not.

MS ROGERS:

So it is

MR. S. COLLINS:

Oh, sorry no, my CA is in

my district.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, so that salary is

probably not coming out of is it?

MR. S. COLLINS:

My understanding that the CAs

that is not something I choose.

When you become a minister, your CA then would be covered off by a ministerial

salary allowance. That is my

understanding.

MS ROGERS:

Oh, I see, okay.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Which is kind of odd, but

that is the protocol.

MS ROGERS:

So you have a CA do you

have another CA salary along with your constituency office?

MR. S. COLLINS:

I just have the one CA

MS ROGERS:

Just the one CA.

MR. S. COLLINS:

and the one EA who operates

out of CYFS, yes.

MS ROGERS:

Great, okay.

All right, just, because I had not heard that before.

MR. S. COLLINS:

No, it is fair.

MS ROGERS:

Then the Employee Benefits, I

am a little bit confused about that.

I always thought that Employee Benefits were like the MERCs, but is that

something different? What kinds of

things are covered under Employee Benefits?

MR. S. COLLINS:

That would be, say, for

example if the administrative staff needed to do training, if they were to

attend a conference, those types of things, educational opportunities and

whatnot.

MS ROGERS:

Oh, okay, I did not know

that. Thank you.

So, none

of that was spent for the Executive Support?

No training last year?

MS COCHRANE:

Correct.

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

If I could, in terms of the

new, as we move into 2015-2016, we did hold the line on some of what we call

professional development opportunities.

We will continue to do that throughout the year.

However, we do want the opportunity to make sure our staff is availing of

the best techniques that are out there.

So we have asked to keep our budget at the previous level in order to

make sure that, if there are new opportunities, our staff get an opportunity to

take advantage of those.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MS COCHRANE:

We will, I expect, spend some

of that in this coming fiscal year.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

If I can add, Gerry, at a FPT

meeting that I was a part of recently we did it by conference call, not only

myself, but a number of ministers across the country just because our calendars

could not line up. Meetings are

taking place, but just not the travel perhaps, which is great.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

Thank you.

Transportation and Communications; was there something specific you were going

to do last year that you did not do?

I see there is a reduction in spending there from revised.

MR. S. COLLINS:

I was happy to see the

reduction. I did not see that from

day to day. I did not see the lack

of that being provided. So I do not

think there was any impact, would it be fair to say, Rachelle?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

If I could, the minister and I have started a process.

We are trying to visit all of the offices in the next year at least.

Hopefully, we can get it done in fifty-two weeks.

We did a

visit to Labrador towards the end of March.

We visited four or five offices up there.

Our plan is to do the other side of the coast so we get a sense of what

the issues are on the ground. We are

going to try to do that for the rest of the Island as well.

It may

be higher next year in our strategic plan.

Our goal is to get out, because we are trying to meet with our staff and

understand what is happening on the ground so that we can support them better.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

With that being said, of

course, I live in Central so I will try to do some of that while I am out in

Central. If there are any other

opportunities that arise, I will certainly do the same so we are not

backtracking every week over the highway, type of thing.

I think we will be able to do well and manage.

MS ROGERS:

Great.

Purchased Services there; what kinds of services would you have purchased

there?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

It accounts for our advertising, media monitoring, our printing, any meeting

costs, entertainment, and general purchased services.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thank you very much.

Then

1.2.02, Corporate Services.

CHAIR:

Subhead 1.2.02, Corporate

Services?

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

CHAIR:

It is page 15.4 for the

members who are following along.

MS ROGERS:

Under Salaries there was an

unspent amount of $1.3 million.

Would that be the Early Childhood Education part?

MR. S. COLLINS:

That was due primarily to

vacancies and delays in filling positions.

Examples of vacancies during the year would include three Clerk Typists

IIIs I had a couple of examples here of Finance and the IM division, as well

as a Financial Officer.

MS ROGERS:

Also, Sandy is it possible

the opening remarks that you gave us you were very quick and I was trying to

read.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Was I?

I tried to speak slowly. That

is my bayman, I am sorry.

MS ROGERS:

You delivered it beautifully.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Thank you.

MS ROGERS:

However, I had a hard time

keeping up with you. Is it possible

to get a copy of that?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Absolutely.

MS ROGERS:

Great, thank you very much.

I did not want to miss a word.

Those

vacancies, the three clerks, have those been filled?

MR. S. COLLINS:

I can certainly find out.

I would imagine some of those would have been filled, but I am not

entirely sure if they are all currently filled now.

We have

quite a bit of movement in the department, as you can appreciate.

If you ask me today my answer may be very different tomorrow, from the

next day, to the next day. I can

certainly find out for you.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Minister, just to be clear,

what we provide one member, can we ensure that we provide both members the same

information?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Absolutely.

Yes, no problem at all.

CHAIR:

That will save some

repetitiveness later on.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Sure.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MS ROGERS:

Great, thank you.

We have

a reduction in Salaries in the budget for 2015 by $357,000.

How come?

MR. S. COLLINS:

It is due primarily to year

over year staffing changes and the budget reduction initiative, which is worth

$392,800. That is to abolish vacant

positions. There are six in total

that were deemed not required by the department, so, for example, a Clerk IV and

a Program & Policy Development Specialist.

I can go

further there. There is an $11,700

adjustment by Budgeting Division for attrition, as well as no salary savings for

three positions associated with relocation of Training Unit; savings are noted

in Transportation and Communications account.

MS ROGERS:

So you are losing six

positions in the department? This is

still under Corporate Services?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes.

MS ROGERS:

They are vacant, yes.

Are they going to be filled?

No. There are six vacant positons

and they will not be filled. So we

have policy development these are not positions that are disappearing through

attrition. These are vacant

positions that are going to be collapsed.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Correct.

MS ROGERS:

Cut.

Okay.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Not cut, but abolished. They

are currently not filled though they are vacant positions.

MS ROGERS:

Oh, it is a saving

opportunity.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Absolutely, finding

efficiencies.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

Can I have a list of those positions?

Great,

thank you very much.

Transportation and Communications, we see a significant reduction in the revised

amount in 2014-2015. Was there

something specific you did not do that you were planning?

MR. S. COLLINS:

No.

Well an increase in use of technology such as Microsoft Lync.

We tried to reduce the travel expenditure as well, similar to what I had

said earlier.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, thank you very much.

MR. S. COLLINS:

You are welcome.

MS ROGERS:

Professional Services; what

would you have done under there?

Professional Services; nothing was spent.

Is that again training?

MR. S. COLLINS:

No, for consultants or

reviews and whatnot. They would

happen periodically. We may have a

number of them in the upcoming year, but not the last.

MS ROGERS:

Great.

Purchased Services; what kinds of services would be purchased under there

for Corporate Services?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Advertisement, lease

accommodations, meeting room rentals, printer and photocopier lease costs,

repairs and maintenance of equipment, costs associated with the Training Unit,

and other general purchases.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, so that is not where

you would purchase consultants?

MR. S. COLLINS:

No.

MS ROGERS:

Great.

Thank you very much.

MR. S. COLLINS:

You are welcome.

MS ROGERS:

Program Development and

Planning, 1.2.03; under Salaries we see a jump in salaries there.

Are there new positions?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes.

Additional temporary positions being hired during the fiscal year that

was not included during the original budget; so, for example, two Program &

Policy Development Specialists for Structured Decision Making which we had

spoken about earlier.

MS ROGERS:

A little bit slower please.

MR. S. COLLINS:

I am sorry.

MS ROGERS:

I am older than you are.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Okay.

I will slow it down.

MS ROGERS:

Thank you.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Once again the additional

temporary positions being hired during the fiscal year that was not included

during the original budget process.

As I said, for example, two Program & Policy Development Specialists for

Structured Decision Making and I referred to that in my opening comments

with developmental work, and severance for one position in adoptions that was

not budgeted. So someone who had

left we had to pay severance to. Of

course, that was unforeseen.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, and then for 2015-2016

an additional $460,000?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Right.

There are twenty-seven positions there; twenty-two permanent and five

temporary in Program Development and Planning.

The variance is due to year over year staffing changes, the 3 per cent

salary increase, of course, and then the step increases that we had talked

about. Budget 2015-2016 includes

funding for positions that are planned to be filled for 2015-2016 and that

includes three Program & Policy Development Specialists, two for Structured

Decision Making and one for adoptions; one Social Worker for adoptions and one

Aboriginal consultant for Level 4.

MS ROGERS:

The Structured Decision

Making

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Gerry, can you hold that

thought?

MS ROGERS:

I will just ask quickly.

Is that the lien?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Pardon me?

MS ROGERS:

That is not the lien?

MR. S. COLLINS:

No.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Can we

get a list of those positions that you created?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Sure.

MS ROGERS:

Great, thank you very much.

CHAIR:

Jim.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Minister, still on 1.2.02,

Corporate Services, last year $3.6 million was budgeted and then only $2.3

million was used. That is about 40

per cent less and then this year it is back up quite a bit.

Could you just walk me through what is going on there?

CHAIR:

Subhead 1.2.02, Salaries?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Subhead 1.2.02, Salaries,

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Why are they down by

$357,000; is that your question?

MR. J. BENNETT:

It is down a whole lot and

then it is up quite a bit. I am just

wondering if you could take me through that.

What is happening there?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Sure.

It was

year-over-year staffing changes; the budget reduction initiative which was

$392,000 and that was to abolish vacant positions, six in total; and $11,700

adjustment by the budgeting division for attrition.

MR. J. BENNETT:

That is in this Salaries line

that started out last year at $3.637 million?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay, you are reading from

something

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Can you give us the list?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Absolutely.

MR. J. BENNETT:

That would make it probably

somewhat easier.

It looks

like a big drop and then a big recovery.

If you have it down that much, then why is it up so high or why was it

estimated to be so high and then come so low?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Again, I am guessing with

regard to the vacancies and delaying filling positions, primarily.

MR. J. BENNETT:

These were positions that

were not filled last year approximately how many?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Just bear with me there, Jim.

I can certainly get that.

CHAIR:

Jean.

MS TILLEY:

It would vary throughout the

year because if a person left, we might wait a couple of months before we filled

the position. At different times

throughout the year, there are different numbers of positions that have been

filled.

MR. J. BENNETT:

These positions are in

Corporate Services, so this is not front-line social workers and that sort of

thing. Is it managerial and are

people recruited from within, or what happens there?

MS TILLEY:

It would likely be recruited

from within government. They would

be a combination of management and bargaining unit positions.

There could be Clerks. There

are QA Auditors that are in our Grand Falls office.

They are being recruited right now; there are three.

We have a Financial Officer positon which is vacant, which we are

planning to recruit for as well.

MR. J. BENNETT:

The estimate for this year

includes positions that some of which are not filled yet, but they may be filled

in the course of the year?

MS TILLEY:

Yes.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I think it would be best if

you could provide the list so we do not spend a whole lot of time trying to

finesse what may be there, only to have you just produce a sheet with ten or

fifteen lines and it gets all the information.

That would seem to be more useful use of time.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

I do not want to interrupt

you, but Ms Bennett has to leave.

MS C. BENNETT:

I just wanted to say hi and

bye and thanks for letting me get orientated (inaudible).

MR. S. COLLINS:

Have a good night.

CHAIR:

Jim.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I encourage people who have

not come to Estimates who may have to come to Estimates you should just come

and sit in and maybe never come back.

I did not mean it; Estimates are just fine actually.

When you

go to the bottom, Operating Accounts, what was budgeted last year was $714,000

and it was revised at $392,000. What

does that cover?

CHAIR:

Operating Accounts, which

would be 2.02.02.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Employees Benefits provides

for conferences, seminar and training courses, registration fees for staff;

Transportation and Communication provides for the travel, telecommunication,

postage, fax and courier charges; Supplies provides for the purchase of office,

promotional, meeting room supplies, and equipment supplies.

MR. J. BENNETT:

This is actually that is

the subtotal. Okay, I understand.

I thought it was a separate number, but it is not.

Transportation and Communications was a substantial amount of that, which is

further up. So Transportation and

Communications started at $280,900 and went to $155,000.

What types of expenses were they?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Primarily there, we are

relocating the existing training unit division to St. John's from Stephenville.

Currently there is a training division in Stephenville; it is located at

the College of the North Atlantic.

We have had some real trouble with recruitment of staff there, so it is going

unfilled. There are vacant positions

there. What we are finding is that

the training that is taking place in St. John's now, not only due to the fact of

lack of staff in Stephenville, but of course the critical mass of our workers

who need the training are located in metro, so that would be savings realized

from the travel which was extensive having to ship people over there, when we

were able to do it, as well as the office space.

We are able to house them now in a provincial office in my office

space, upstairs from there, there is vacant space.

So we will not have a lease cost associated as we do now with the College

of the North Atlantic.

MR. J. BENNETT:

What types of training would

it be?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Who would be best?

Donna, probably.

CHAIR:

Donna.

MS O'BRIEN:

In terms of training, for the

most

part it is basic core training to our social work staff and our supervisory

staff. It is the key elements of

practices, various elements of practice.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Does this mean that if you

hire a social worker from MUN School of Social Work and the person has no real

hands-on of this, like the training or internship, for want of a better word?

MS O'BRIEN:

Before any of our staff

really get into direct practice in terms of working with clients, they must

participate in certain core pieces of work.

There is a pre-core component.

As they progress through the profession, in terms of working with us, as

they are ready, as they are leaning, we put them through a series of practice

training sessions to complement and to support other training that they would

have received either academically through the university or through other

professional development.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Would this also be used for

existing employees if you wanted to cross train them on different types of work

that they would need to do within the department?

MS O'BRIEN:

Absolutely.

All of the program areas it not just child protection; it is youth

corrections, adoption services, the full range of it.

Our staff will enroll and all of our staff must complete all of those

core elements over a given period of time.

MR. J. BENNETT:

So that was being done at the

College of North Atlantic in Stephenville and now it is being done in St.

John's?

MS O'BRIEN:

The unit itself was located

in Stephenville, training was provided both in Stephenville and in other areas

of the Province; but we came to the realization, by the middle of last year, we

were struggling with recruitment of appropriate staff who were prepared to go

work in Stephenville to provide that critical training that we need for our

staff.

As a

result of that, basically we made the decision, based upon the travel expenses

associated with it, that it would be in everyone's best interest, particularly

our front-line staff, that we have the training services as close to where the

service needs are.

MR. J. BENNETT:

It would seem to make sense,

just for numbers, just for critical numbers, not having duplication and filling

up your classes or whatever. Why

would you run two when you can run one?

The next

category deals with Program Development and Planning.

CHAIR:

Subhead 1.2.03, Jim?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Yes, that is correct.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MR. J. BENNETT:

What does that do?

MR. S. COLLINS:

The activity here would

include Child Protection and In Care, adoptions, and Community Youth

Corrections.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

Who is doing this work? So it

is program and planning for all of these services?

Is that correct?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Last year, the budget was

$1.4 million, about $100,000 more than was budgeted.

Now, this year, it is up around another 25 per cent or so.

What is happening there?

MR. S. COLLINS:

There are twenty-seven

positions; twenty-two permanent and five temporary in Program Development and

Planning. The variance that you had

spoken of is due to year to year staffing changes, the 3 per cent increase of

course, and step increases.

Budget

2015-2016 includes funding for positions that are planned to be filled for

2015-2016. That includes three

Program & Policy Development Specialists, two of which will be for the

Structured Decision Making and one for adoptions; one social worker for

adoptions; and, one Aboriginal consultant for Level 4.

MR. J. BENNETT:

You refer to temporary

positions from time to time. Why

would there be temporary positions?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

Our temporary positions are there because during the year, or in our strategic

planning process, we will identify from time to time specific projects that need

work. For example, our Level 3

foster care this year, it is our priority to try to move the supports to

families who want to become Level 3 foster homes.

We need special attention placed on that just for that one point in time

during the year.

Once

that piece of work is done we would no longer need that position.

There are ins and outs through different project works that are required.

CHAIR:

Follow up Jim?

MR. J. BENNETT:

I will come back to that.

CHAIR:

You are good?

Do you want to follow up to that before we go off?

MR. J. BENNETT:

I will ask about foster care

in a little while, but it may take more time than would be reasonable.

CHAIR:

Okay, fine.

Gerry.

MS ROGERS:

Thank you.

I cannot

remember now where I left off. I do

believe we talked back to 1.2.03, Operating Accounts, Employee Benefits.

That is an area of training, of professional development?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Conferences, those types of

things, yes.

MS ROGERS:

Probably there was a

reduction in that budget in the year 2013-2014 as well, was there?

MR. S. COLLINS:

I would assume so.

MS ROGERS:

I can see it is going down

and down.

Do you

feel that the need for professional development is minimizing?

MR. S. COLLINS:

No, no not at all.

Certainly we see the importance.

As I mentioned earlier, any time we can use technology so whether that

be a conference call as opposed to a plane ticket, or using Skype or Microsoft

Lync, those types of programs; any time we can minimize the amount of travel

without jeopardizing the amount of professional development, we do so.

MS ROGERS:

So front-line social workers,

if they were to go to a conference or do training, which budget would it come

out of?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

They would be out of regional

operations which are following 2.1.01.

They would be under regional operations.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Transportation and Communications; there is a significant reduction there in the

revised budget from $141,000 to $39,000.

Those saving were?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Not to sound repetitive, but

again the same situation as before, just trying to watch every penny, while at

the same time being able to provide opportunities, but through the use of

technology.

MS ROGERS:

So if you were not saving

every penny, if you did not have to save every penny, what would you have done

with that $141,000?

MR. S. COLLINS:

In my ten years in government

people can always find somewhere to travel.

I am sure there were conferences that we could find for people to go to,

but in the times we are in we are trying to find the best opportunities for

people to attend what they can. If

opportunities exist where someone does not have to fly across the country, and

can do it using technology, that is what we do.

course, Gerry from year to year conferences change and situations change.

Perhaps this year more opportunities will present themselves that people

may have to attend. It is hard to

say from year to year, but any time we can do it better or cheaper by still

delivering the training, we will do so.

MS ROGERS:

Sometimes what happens when

people get together in a room and have certain levels of expertise that is

valid.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Right.

Sometimes we see conferences coming here, so of course the travel would

be affected as well as opposed to having to travel out.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

Thank you

Professional Services; there is a significant revision there.

What had you perhaps intended to do and did not do?

MR. S. COLLINS:

I am going to get one of the

staff to talk to that because that has to do with Structured Decision Making.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

In 2014-2015 our Professional

Service's budget was primarily for the completion of the Structured Decision

Making model. It was to pay

consultants who are working with the National Council on Crime and Delinquency

to help us with the model that we are developing, and other consultant costs,

but that was the bulk of it.

In the

new year, in 2015-2016, we have asked for the same budget for Professional

Services. We still have more work to

do on that Structured Decision Making model, hence why we are hiring those

couple of positions the minister referred to earlier.

We do think that we are going to need some of that in 2015-2016.

addition, the department as the minister indicated in his opening remarks is

almost five years in and a statutory review is likely coming, according to our

legislation. We will plan for that

in 2015-2016. We may need some

consultant work to help identify any gaps we may have in our legislation that we

may need to pay attention to during that statutory review.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

Rachelle, can you tell me again the name of organization you had

consulted with?

MS COCHRANE:

Certainly. It is called the National

Council on Crime and Delinquency.

MS ROGERS:

How did it go?

You are still doing that? You

are in the process of doing that?

MS COCHRANE:

Yes, we are in the process. We are

developing an information management system as well.

We are still on the Health system, I guess, for lack of a better word,

you know where we came in from Health.

The training will happen on the Structured Decision Making model because

all of our staff has to get trained on this.

It is all sequential. Our IM

system needs to be running and then we do the training because it would be

MS ROGERS:

What is your IM system?

MS COCHRANE:

Our information management system.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MS COCHRANE:

I am sorry.

MS ROGERS:

That is okay.

MS COCHRANE:

We are on the Health

information management system today.

We will have one dedicated for Child Protection once this system is developed.

In 2016 our goal with information management it is always a challenge,

but we are working diligently to try to get that system up and running.

Then we will roll out our Structured Decision Making model to staff.

MS ROGERS:

When are you hoping to roll

that out?

MS COCHRANE:

We are saying 2016, but again, it is our best guess.

MS ROGERS:

I know it is mentioned in the

plan here, but can you give me a thumbnail sketch of what that Structured

Decision Making is and why it is so important?

MS COCHRANE:

I will ask Michelle Shallow. It is

under her division. She has been

working with the consultant so I will ask Michelle.

CHAIR:

Michelle.

MS SHALLOW:

Structured Decision Making will replace our current Risk Management System.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MS SHALLOW:

It is the best

research-informed approach to using a series of tools to help social workers

make critical decisions at critical junctures in the involvement of the lives of

families who become involved with our system.

Right from referral, intake, prioritizing what the call is and what the

issue is, and when and how we need to respond, to planning with the family and

providing intervention to mitigate risk or making other decisions, if necessary,

right up and including case closure.

MS ROGERS:

I imagine then that staff

will have to be trained in that. So

in this budget of $442,000, does that include training for staff or is that

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

The training for staff if

the regional operations staff need to travel for training, we will deliver the

training we are expecting, in-house.

Maybe we will bring in a consultant to help us with that because we have used

this National Council on Crime & Delinquency before.

So when we get to the training side we may bring in an expert to help

with the training, for quite a while, I suspect, if we do use then.

The

travel for the staff, when they come in for that training, that will be captured

under regional operations because that is where our social workers are budgeted,

under regional operations.

MS ROGERS:

So this must be exciting?

It is a whole different way of doing business.

MS COCHRANE:

I think it is good news.

MS ROGERS:

It is such a tough area.

Thank

you very much for that.

Purchased Services, I think there is $22,000 left over from that.

I am

going on now to General Administration continued, 1.2.04, Operating Accounts:

Property, Furnishings and Equipment.

The budget was for $280,000, only $45,000 was spent.

What was the change there?

MR. S. COLLINS:

That is budgeted for items

for example, there were two purchases there.

I guess it would be as needed, so there were a couple of purchases a

side by side to be used in Hopedale.

Of course, the roads network up there is very different than here so they need

different modes of transportation.

That, for example, was $17,000. As

well, in Natuashish there was a pick-up truck that was just about $30,000.

Again, it is as the need arises.

That could have been four pick-up trucks, but thankfully it was only one.

It is hard to determine from year to year.

MS ROGERS:

The original budgeted amount

of $280,000, that was not budgeted for anything in particular then you

MR. S. COLLINS:

It was for land or a house in

Hopedale, but we were unsuccessful with that.

So now what we are going to do is proceed with a lease because when we

own a property on the Coast of Labrador having it maintained and those services

provides, whether it be maintenance or whatever the case is, it is very

difficult. So we are proceeding a

little bit differently.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thank

you very much.

MR. S. COLLINS:

You are welcome.

MS ROGERS:

I guess I will turn it over

to Jim.

CHAIR:

Jim.

MR. J. BENNETT:

When we left off, we were at

1.2.03. I think some of the

explanation included maybe some foster family training.

You said Level 3, I think.

That was just my recollection.

MR. S. COLLINS:

What number, Jim, sorry?

MR. J. BENNETT:

When I was asking questions

before, included in the Salaries line was some foster parent training.

I think the deputy minister said for Level 3 foster parents.

MR. S. COLLINS:

I think that came under

Transportation and Communications, wasn't it, Rachelle?

MS COCHRANE:

I apologize if I am on the wrong

section because I am not quite sure which

number we are on.

CHAIR:

Heading 1.2.03, under Program

Development and Planning, page 15.4 and Mr. Bennett asked in the last question

but I think it came from Transportation and Communications, and the difference,

but you said something about Level 3 training and foster care.

I do not know if it is Professional Services or Transportation.

MS COCHRANE:

Oh, perfect. I apologize now; I was

on the previous questions.

In our

Continuum of Care Strategy we have four levels of care for our children that are

in care. We have had very great

success with the services that we are offering on Levels 1, 2, and 4.

MR. J. BENNETT:

What is encompassed in each

one?

MS COCHRANE:

Level 1 is kinship, families who want to foster.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I am somewhat familiar with

it because we have done referrals from my office and I kind of think you may be

under promoted.

MS COCHRANE:

Okay. This is where we are heading

this.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Grandparents and whatever,

they get an alcoholic mom and a disappearing dad from Alberta or whatever, the

grandmother is stuck with the kids and going to be kicked out of Newfoundland

and Labrador Housing and it is a total mess, so we usually come to you guys.

MS COCHRANE:

Right. So our plan is this fiscal

year coming, we have spent a lot of attention on Levels 1, 2, and 4 level of

care. What our goal is now is to

enhance our Level 3 placements. We

are going to try to

MR. J. BENNETT:

What does Level 3 do?

MS COCHRANE:

Level 3 are for our

high-needs children. They have

multiple barriers and they are difficult to place in a normal foster home

because they are such high need.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

MS COCHRANE:

We need to train either our

current foster homes

MR. J. BENNETT:

It could be ADHD?

MS COCHRANE:

All of those issues and they have addictions, multiple barriers.

Our

foster families have told us they need special training in order to accept these

children into their homes. So this

year our goal is to reach out to the Foster Families Association and those that

are registered foster homes and see if we can enhance their acceptance of

children who have these high needs and by providing them with a substantial

amount of training.

MR. J. BENNETT:

What ages are they typically,

generally a little bit older?

MS COCHRANE:

Our older children are the hardest to place, obviously; and with higher needs,

they are even harder. We have

children with special needs from all ages, but certainly the harder to place

ones are the older children.

MR. J. BENNETT:

How many foster families do

you need now?

MS COCHRANE:

Do we need?

OFFICIAL:

That is the magic question.

MS COCHRANE:

Yes.

Our

caseload changes on a daily basis.

It has been relatively constant, if I can say it that way, up and down, several

children from time to time and from different levels.

Our caseload now is at about 7,000 all in, which are those who are still

living with their families and those who we have to take in care.

We have about 1,000 children that are in care; that is we are their

families if I can use, for lack of a better term.

They have been out of their homes and we have found placements for them,

including foster families.

MS ROGERS:

So you said 7,000 are kids

who are not in their homes?

MS COCHRANE:

No, no we have most of the

children are in their homes

MS ROGERS:

Oh, I see, okay.

MS COCHRANE:

There are about 1,000 of

those 7,000 that, for multiple reasons, they had to be removed from their homes

and they are in our care. Those are

the ones we find either kinship programs for them or our structured foster

homes, or our residential care homes or now, hopefully this year, our Level 3

specialized foster homes we are calling them.

MR. J. BENNETT:

In cases, some of the

children I suppose even though the family might be less than a perfect family,

the solution might be worse than what you already have, you may be able to put

in supports and monitoring or whatever with the biological family and work with

them.

MS COCHRANE:

Absolutely.

I mean, ideally nobody wants to remove a child from their family.

That is our goal; however, that is not always possible.

We will wrap supports around a family to help with parenting or to make

sure they have the right supports they need.

It could be a single mom, multiple issues going on in a home, and they

may need supports themselves. If we

can provide supports to the home so that the child would stay in that home and

be protected, we would do that.

Our

social workers are out doing those types of programming all the time, but from

time to time obviously those things break down and we have to take the children

out of their homes.

MR. J. BENNETT:

With the Aboriginal children

you have, or we have I guess we are all in this together an awful lot in the

Northern Peninsula, Roddickton area who are there in significant numbers.

The percentage of Aboriginal children seems to be really high compared to

overall percentage. Do you foresee a

time when that may be a lower number?

To me it

seems like an endless pit. I do not

think you would ever want to say that or make that sort of an admission, but it

is not an easy task.

MS COCHRANE:

Oh no; no question.

Donna

O'Brien has been working with the Aboriginal leaders now for quite some time and

has built up a considerable, I guess, expertise in the services and the needs of

the children who are in Labrador.

Minister, maybe Donna can speak to that.

CHAIR:

Donna.

MS O'BRIEN:

Yes, and thank you for the kind remarks, Rachelle; I appreciate that.

I will

say, you are absolutely right; there are far too many Aboriginal children being

removed and having to leave their home communities.

That is not something that the community wants and it is certainly not

something from a CYFS perspective that we want.

I will

say to you that while we always look at the numbers of children being removed,

it is really, really important for us to always remember that just about 80 per

cent of the children who do need to be removed from their parents' care continue

to be supported in their home communities and in their culture; but there are

still far too many who have to leave their community for whatever else because

there are no resources available.

What I

will say to you, Mr. Bennett, is that we have been working very hard with both

the Innu leadership and the Nunatsiavut Government and their officials around

finding ways to be more creative in identifying foster homes, caring homes, in

those communities; so much so that we work with them to adapt foster parent

training, work co-operatively with them to develop their own recruitment

campaigns, creating that capacity on the ground to help support it.

The

other component that I think is important to mention as well, we have been

investing heavily into Labrador in terms of our staffing, in terms of training,

being innovative and creative in working with families so we are more visible in

the community. We do not want to be

the social workers who are there removing children.

We want to be the social workers who are in the community supporting that

capacity building there, and we are seeing some very encouraging results.

Regardless of what you have heard perhaps in the media in terms of

Natuashish, there is some really, really good work being done by our very

hard-working staff in those communities.

I will

also say to you that we have developed Memorandums of Understanding with the

Innu and with the Nunatsiavut Government that we are currently in the process of

reviewing now. We made a commitment

that we would review those MOUs to make sure that they are current and in

keeping with today's realities. We

have developed some good relationships there in terms of strengthening our

service co-ordination, strengthening service delivery, by helping leadership on

the ground accept not only responsibility, which they have done, but as well to

help them build their own capacity to the extent that we can.

As well,

I will say, Minister Collins, Minister Russell, and government generally has

done a good job of advocating to the federal government for additional services

and supports in those communities to reduce the need for more children to have

to be removed.

That

said, there are still some very long-standing issues in those communities, but

there is some good, strong leadership in many of these communities now.

We are continuing to foster good relationships that can only lead to

positive results. It is a very slow

process, too slow for us, but it is moving in the right direction and that is

what gives me encouragement every day.

CHAIR:

A follow-up, Jim.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I will come back to that

because I may need a little time on it when I do come back.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Gerry.

MS ROGERS:

Donna, to keep on that track,

how is it going with the recruitment of Aboriginal social workers?

CHAIR:

Donna.

MS O'BRIEN:

We have had some success, as you are likely aware, Ms Rogers.

The Nunatsiavut Government sponsored, I will call it, an affirmative

action of sorts initiative to get more BSW graduates who have Aboriginal

backgrounds, who are Aboriginal themselves.

There have been some initial, early successes in recruitment from a CYFS

perspective. However, many of those

staff that we were able to secure have remained in the Labrador region, but many

of them have gone to work in other areas as other opportunities would come up.

We are

competitive in terms of our salary ranges and whatnot, but this work is very,

very difficult. Many of the staff

all who were interested in employment in Labrador were able to secure it, as far

as I understand; but we have not been able to retain too many of them, although

we continue to try. So we try to

find other innovative ways.

I will

say to you, we do have a significant representation of Aboriginal employees who

work in supporting capacities within our offices, which is perhaps not as

important as the social work roles, but they are the face of the community: our

community services workers who are interpreters.

So they certainly bring the Aboriginal perspective into the

decision-making process for our social workers.

Plus, we have a good relationship with the hired staff of the various

Aboriginal groups as well that helps to strengthen that.

We would

like to have more Aboriginal social workers.

We take as many as are available and willing to come work with us, but we

have to find other ways when we are not able to keep them for long periods of

time.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Gerry, if I may.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Thank you.

actually had the pleasure of attending that inaugural graduation and some of

those faces I think it was all young ladies in that particular class I seen

a number of those people along the coast when I went up, familiar faces.

So I am glad to say that some of those have continued to work at CYFS,

but many have moved on as Donna had said.

I also

had a conversation with the leadership, Mr. Penashue, in Sheshatshiu and we had

a talk about what the Innu perhaps would like to do with mirroring a similar

program. That is something they

would like to do, but they are not at a place to do quite yet.

That will be the key to our success I think is recruiting more local

folks with sensitivity around the culture and an understanding of that.

We have seen great success with those who currently work there.

It was a good question.

MS ROGERS:

Donna, how many Aboriginal

children or youth do we have in care now?

CHAIR:

Donna.

MS. O'BRIEN:

I am sure I have the numbers

here in front of me somewhere. We

have, I would say, a little over 300.

About 30 per cent of the children in care in the Province children and

youth in care; I think it is important to make that distinction have

Aboriginal status. So it is a little

over 300 I would say in the range of about 330.

OFFICIAL:

That sounds right.

MS O'BRIEN:

Yes, in the range of about 330.

MS ROGERS:

Where are they?

MS O'BRIEN:

Where are they located?

As I would say to you, between 70 per cent and 80 per cent are actually

living either in their Aboriginal community or certainly living in Labrador.

There is a percentage of children, primarily Inuit, but also there are

Innu children represented in the Roddickton area which is as close to Labrador

as we were able to secure and they

MS ROGERS:

They are in foster homes in

Roddickton?

MS O'BRIEN:

In foster homes in

Roddickton. We have a small number

of Aboriginal children, because of their higher needs, who are placed for

treatment in out-of-province treatments.

Now, generally, those are shorter term because they are there to receive

treatment.

We have

seen a significant reduction in that need over the past couple of years,

particularly in the past year, with the opening of the two treatment centres in

the Province that have been very responsive in terms of meeting those needs.

At the very least, although children may need to be removed to receive

treatment, they are receiving that treatment more often now closer to home as

possible.

MS ROGERS:

In the two new youth

treatment facilities, is it?

MS O'BRIEN:

Yes, the one in Paradise and

the one in Grand Falls-Windsor.

MS ROGERS:

Are there any youth in

corrections?

MS O'BRIEN:

Are there any Aboriginal

youth in the correction system?

There are some. I do not have that

number, but I can get that for you.

There are a small number, I will say to you

MS ROGERS:

Where would they be?

MS O'BRIEN:

Pardon me?

MS ROGERS:

Where would they be?

MS O'BRIEN:

No different than any other youth in the correction system, if they require

closed custody services, they would be supported through Whitbourne, through the

youth centre. If they are in the

open custody status, most likely, depending on what they have been charged with

or what they have been found guilty of, from an open custody perspective, they

could be in one of our two groups homes, open custody group homes for youth

corrections. One is located in

Corner Brook and one is located in St. John's.

It is no

different than any other youth who has been introduced to the correctional

system.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

I would love to have a list of that.

MS O'BRIEN:

Of the number?

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MS O'BRIEN:

Yes, I will certainly provide

that to you.

MS ROGERS:

That you be great.

Thank you very much.

What

additional kinds of resources are needed to help fully serve the Aboriginal

communities?

CHAIR:

Donna.

MS O'BRIEN: We

have gone through a fairly significant process, working through the planning

circle process through the MOUs with both the Nunatsiavut Government and the

Innu leadership in identifying resources not only through the recruitment of

more foster homes and getting more naturalized, I will call it, family-based

care, but there has also been a recognition that where that is not possible, in

order to keep child and youth closer to home, that they may require other types

of placement needs.

We are now going through a process that we will probably

get through, to this conversation now, working with the Aboriginal leadership

around identifying they have already identified, through the planning circle

process, some of their needs. Some

of those Level 4 requirements, such as emergency placements, such as other forms

of group living, more individualized arrangements for children with very complex

needs who are living in those communities, to be able to develop that capacity

in their communities because now they come out for those services.

MS ROGERS: And

so far away.

MS O'BRIEN: It

is so far away, but what is very important is that we have to work within the

leadership in the community to build that capacity so that they can take up not

so much ownership, but certainly take some level of responsibility of ensuring

that the services can be available in their communities.

We want their people, their members, their staff to be working and

providing those levels of support. I

am sure you can appreciate the complexity of going in on reserves and putting

kinds of services in place.

MS ROGERS:

Yes, I have done that kind of

work.

MS O'BRIEN:

I will say to you, the leadership both from the Innu and the Inuit perspective

have been very responsive

MS ROGERS:

Great.

MS O'BRIEN:

and have shown great leadership in identifying what their requirements are.

So very soon, in the coming weeks, we are going to be having meetings

with them, because they have already identified their need and we have now

received the okay to have those conversations in terms of what their future

needs would be and how we can get those services in their communities as soon as

possible.

MS ROGERS:

Great, thank you very much.

If we go

over to page 15.6, it is Regional Services

CHAIR:

Regional Services, page 15.6,

subhead 2.1.01, for those following along.

MS ROGERS:

Under Salaries

MR. J. BENNETT:

(Inaudible).

CHAIR:

We vote inclusive, Mr.

Bennett, if that is okay with you.

MR. J. BENNETT:

(Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay.

Here we go.

MS ROGERS:

Under Salaries there was a

reduction, unspent amount, revised less $7.6 million what would that reflect?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Again vacancies, delays in

filling some positions, particularly around the hard-to-fill positions.

MS ROGERS:

How many vacancies?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Do we have the vacancy

number?

OFFICIAL:

It is 10 per cent to 15 per

cent.

MR. S. COLLINS:

It that a fair 10 per cent

to 15 per cent of the total?

OFFICIAL:

Yes.

MR. S. COLLINS:

I will see if I can get you a

number, Gerry. Again, that changes

from day to day of course.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. S. COLLINS:

We talk about the difficult

jobs they do, and that lends itself to turnover and we have very high turnover.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Folks come in on child

protection, they do their time there and it is difficult work, and of course you

have that turnover as a result of that.

MS ROGERS:

The revised is what we ended

up with at the end of the year.

There was not a targeted revision during the year.

The revised, is that a reflection of an outcome of vacancies that you

could not fill or was there a targeted reduction throughout the year?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

The salary savings that you

see in 2014-2015 are caused by staff turnover; it was not caused by any target

of savings, nothing to that effect.

About 10

per cent to 15 per cent of our staff, as we call it, are churning over every

year for multiple reasons. They move

offices; it takes a couple of months for us to fill a positon.

They decide to leave the social work or whatever, the caseload, because

they want to find jobs in other sectors.

Eighty-eight percent of our salary budget is in the regions and most of

the vacancies are also in the regions.

People are moving around constantly.

CHAIR:

I am going to hold you there,

Gerry, and go back to Mr. Bennett.

Mr.

Bennett.

MR. J. BENNETT:

We were talking about foster

care and, in particular, the Aboriginal population.

With recruiting social workers, is there any program or any focus on

recruiting or promoting, through affirmative action or otherwise, Aboriginal

students who would be introduced to the opportunity to do social work, say, from

high school, to go to university, potentially, to go back you can never insist

they go back but do we do that in this Province?

Do we identify them and encourage them to go to Memorial or elsewhere to

do social work and track them and maybe have them want to go back home?

CHAIR:

Donna.

MS O'BRIEN:

I will say to you that generally, not just in Aboriginal communities, but in

terms of looking to recruit social workers generally speaking, there are career

fairs. There are things of that

nature that we I am a social worker as well as a profession look to promote

the profession.

I will

say from an Aboriginal-focus perspective, staff in our Aboriginal communities

regularly visit schools and talk about the work that they do.

I will also say to you that once admitted to the School of Social Work,

we put a real focus on looking to recruit Aboriginals.

We do our own separate eligibility list for Labrador and if there are

people with Aboriginal status who are participating in the BSW programs, we

actively pursue them in terms of trying to recruit them for positions.

Generally speaking, I will say in the education system in the school systems, we

do promote the profession. I cannot

speak to whether we actually have a specific focus on trying to recruit

Aboriginal students into the profession, any more than we would anywhere else;

but I am aware that are staff are actively in schools and engaging in career

fairs, things of that nature, where possible, to promote the profession within

those communities.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Some of the professional

schools in other parts of Canada accept quotas for Natives.

For example, I studied at a law school that had a Mohawk quota.

MS O'BRIEN:

Yes

MR. J. BENNETT:

They came from six nations.

Presumably, they went back.

There were some Ojibwa. Dalhousie,

for example, has what they called an IB&M program: Indigenous Blacks & Mi'kmaq.

So I am wondering if we have something like that so people might be more

motivated to go back if they were pre-selected early.

I know it is a long fuse because it is four years or more after high

school but if they wanted to go back, it might help with the retention rate in

Natuashish and Sheshatshiu for sure.

MS O'BRIEN:

I am not aware of any specific targeted number of applicants within the social

work program here through the MUN School of Social Work.

I am not sure if any of our staff would have any knowledge of whether

there is a particular affirmative action.

I am not aware of one. I can

certainly check that, but I am not aware of it.

I know

that regularly we go into the school to promote working in Aboriginal

communities on a regular basis, but whether there is a specific targeted number

to try to attract more Aboriginal people, I cannot specifically to that.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Is there an issue in dealing,

particularly with foster children, much to do with fetal alcohol syndrome?

MS O'BRIEN:

It is quite prevalent in Aboriginal communities.

Yes, it is.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Is there any sort of

programming to I am not sure how you convince someone not to drink when they

are already expecting a child. Is

there any focus on that because that would seem to result in lifelong

consequences and a big obligation for the department for a long, long time?

MS O'BRIEN:

There is a focus and I will say to you, most of the funding actually comes

directly to the Aboriginal groups themselves, to the governments and to those

communities through Health Canada to promote a lot of training and support for

families who are experiencing addictions issues.

Some significant progress and I will say to you, recently in Natuashish

they held a several week addictions program particularly focused on younger moms

and women. They had, I think,

somewhere in the range of about thirty graduates, which was the first time ever

they had successfully gone through a program through their Healing Lodge.

I know

with the Nunatsiavut Government they also have been focusing on the development

and delivering of their own training to their own people around dealing with,

what I will say, their mental health and addictions issues.

A lot of it is based on intergenerational trauma and all of those social

ills that come with all of that, but it is quite prevalent in many Aboriginal

communities.

MR. J. BENNETT:

In the non-Aboriginal

population, do you also see that in children that end up in care?

MS O'BRIEN:

FASD?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Yes.

MS O'BRIEN:

Yes. I would not be able to give you

a specific number, but yes we do see a high level of prevalence of children with

high needs behaviours, where there has been a diagnosis of either Fetal Alcohol

Spectrum Disorder or like symptoms, suspect symptoms yes, we are seeing it.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I am not sure if the question

was asked before. Under Professional

Services last year $442,000 was budgeted and $34,400 was used, and it is back up

to $442,000 this year.

CHAIR:

Just for clarification Jim,

what

section are we under now?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Subhead 1.2.03.

CHAIR:

Subhead 1.2.03, Professional

Services?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Yes, that is correct.

CHAIR:

I believe it was answered.

Rachelle.

MR. J. BENNETT:

You may have answered earlier

and I did not get it.

MS COCHRANE:

Sorry, this is the one we may have talked about a bit earlier

MR. J. BENNETT:

I am always suspicious of

numbers that change a whole lot and equally suspicious of numbers that do not

change at all.

MS COCHRANE:

I understand.

MR. J. BENNETT:

How can it be exactly the

same? Make it a dollar more or a

dollar less but

MS COCHRANE:

The Professional Services

budget was primarily for the completion of the Structured Decision Making model

project. It was to pay for

consultants from the National Council on Crime & Delinquency that you talked

about earlier. That is the one.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay, I knew the answer.

I was not sure what question it applied to, so I am good with that.

Thank you.

On the

next page, 2.1.01, last year there was $50,446,000 budgeted for Salaries and

$42,783,000 actually was used. Is

that for front line what is that?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

The Salaries, 2.1.01, is for

our Regional Services and that is the bulk of our support in the department for

front-line service delivery.

MR. J. BENNETT:

So why was it almost $8

million below budget?

CHAIR:

I think the minister just

answered that.

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

Yes, he did.

As the minister indicated earlier, the Salaries are almost $8 million

lower primarily due to vacancies.

This is the churn in our staff that we referred to

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

MS COCHRANE:

delays in filling positions. So

once one person leaves, it takes us a couple of months to get somebody in and

then if it is a hard to fill, it takes longer.

Our turnover in our staff is between 10 per cent to 15 per cent a year

and, again, the bulk of this is in the regions.

So it would not take long with a 10 per cent turnover in staff to save $6

million or $7 million.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I am not surprised that the

turnover would be 10 per cent in social work.

That means you stayed ten years.

MS COCHRANE:

Which is probably good news.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I mean, think of it, this

sort of front-line work probably uses up a lot of energy and everything else.

So ten years doing this type of front-line work and the person moved on

to managerial or did something else; to me, that would not seem like a lot of

turnover actually in that type of work.

This

year we re-budgeted back up to $49,000.

So are those positions filled now, or are you still looking for people.

or do you have a rolling 10 per cent more or less that you are trying to fill

all the time?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

We always have vacancies, if I can say it that way.

There is a fair bit in this so I will take a moment, if I could.

The

variances are due to the following: we have twenty-one vacant positions that are

no longer required as part of our staffing model.

So we have a certain number of positions in the department to deal with

this 1 to 20 caseload of social workers.

We had twenty-one of those positons that are no longer required.

They have been vacant for several years.

We are just going to eliminate those.

So, that

is part of it. We have three

positons that are part of the attrition target that were established by

government. We will find those

throughout the year. We do not

anticipate having any problem meeting that target without impacting our front

line. So we are going to do that

corporate function as opposed to our front line.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Where do you see the three

positions coming from, generally?

MS COCHRANE:

We have four or five individuals who are eligible to retire.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Are they administrative or

are they

MS COCHRANE:

They are definitely headquarter functions, yes.

We know the names of the positions and who is in them, but until the

individuals make their decision on when they plan on retiring, we are just going

to hold in this mode. Throughout the

year, we will know and we will have a better idea what actual positions are

going to be affected.

It is

also partially offset by the addition of new positions that happened in

2014-2015. For example, we have a

Manager of Service Delivery and Regional Operations that is about to be

recruited and will be working directly with Donna to help our front line, to

make sure the corporate decision making is supporting the front line.

We have a 3 per cent caused by salary increases.

That was collective bargaining.

We have step increases of about $250,000 throughout the year.

So that is bulk of it.

addition to those changes, those are the decreases that occurred during the

year.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Is that a list?

MS COCHRANE:

Yes, absolutely we can get you that list.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay, that might be easier.

MS COCHRANE:

This is the good news. I have to

take a moment now, Minister. I have

to talk about Labrador because it is such a good-news story.

We did

give up some vacant positons, but they told us that we could create six new

positions for Labrador. So we are

going to create, this year, one Clinical Program Supervisor, four Social Worker

II's, which is a high level of classification so it helps with recruitment, and

one Clerk Typist III.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Where in Labrador?

MS COCHRANE:

We still have not worked out the details of that.

We are going to review our caseloads now in the next several weeks and we

will be able to identify, with the regional team on the ground, where best to

place these resources.

CHAIR:

I am going to hold it there

and I have watched people kind of fidget

MS ROGERS:

Just to finish that one.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Gerry.

MS ROGERS:

Rachelle, did you say you are going to create six in Labrador?

MS COCHRANE:

In Labrador.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Okay.

I saw

people fidget just a little bit and some people walk out, so I am going to

suggest ten minutes and I would ask everybody to be punctual on the ten minutes.

We will reconvene here well, actually nine minutes; it is 7:15, so we

will take a moment to pause and that also gives our people a break downstairs.

We only have one individual downstairs and they need a break too.

Thank

you.

Give us

eight minutes.

Recess

CHAIR (Littlejohn):

Order, please!

Mr. T,

please.

Thank

you.

Gerry.

MS ROGERS:

(Inaudible).

CHAIR:

I think we are on 2

MS ROGERS:

We are on 2.1.01, Regional

Services, Transportation and Communications.

The underspending is not that much in terms of the proportion, but we see

a reduction of $118,000 for 2015 - 2016.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Gerry, you may recall I spoke

about the training unit. Myself and

Jim had that conversation.

Thank

you, Sir. I sound much better now.

The

total savings expected would be $197,400.

As I had said, that has to do with the reduced travel costs as well as

what we have to now pay with lease arrangements in Stephenville.

That will no longer be the case because it is going to be incorporated in

the provincial office.

MS ROGERS:

It is not at the College of

the North Atlantic here in St. John's?

MR. S. COLLINS:

No.

MS ROGERS:

It is at the provincial

office.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes, we have space available.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

When it was in Stephenville who was providing the training?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

It was CYFS, our staff.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

Yes.

MR. S. COLLINS:

I am sorry, I thought you

meant specifically who.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thanks.

You were

looking for names, were you?

MR. S. COLLINS:

No, no, but names of

positions. It was CYFS, yes.

MS ROGERS:

Great, thank you.

Purchased Services; the revised was revised by $2.2 million in 2014-2015.

What were the Purchased Services that you did not purchase?

MR. S. COLLINS:

I will tell you what we did

purchase and then we can go from there.

MS ROGERS:

Sure.

MR. S. COLLINS:

They would include

approximately $3.4 million for leased accommodations.

Lease accommodations are mainly used for offices in various locations

throughout the Province. For

example, St. John's was just over $1 million; Corner Brook, $340,000; and Lab

City was $207,000.

MS ROGERS:

That is for office space?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Correct.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Again, we realized savings.

Rachelle, do you want to speak to that because, again, it was spending

and trying to keep spending

MS COCHRANE:

Under control.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Right.

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

At any one point in time during the year, as our leases are expiring we are not

always able to forecast what they are going to come in at because we go through

a competitive process.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MS COCHRANE:

Particularly in the Avalon, our lease costs continue to grow.

That money we have had in there in anticipation of further cost in our

leases.

MS ROGERS:

You experienced a reduction.

MS COCHRANE:

We did experience a reduction. That

is right.

MS ROGERS:

Did you close any offices?

MS COCHRANE:

No, we did not in 2014-2015.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

In 2015-2016, will you be closing any offices?

MS COCHRANE:

We are planning an amalgamation of our offices on the West Coast.

We are amalgamating our Piccadilly office, our Stephenville Crossing

office, and our Burgeo office; three offices.

We are moving them into Stephenville.

Our

staff

MS ROGERS:

Piccadilly, sorry Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

It is Piccadilly,

Stephenville Crossing, and Burgeo.

MS ROGERS:

It is all going to go into

Burgeo?

MS COCHRANE:

Into Stephenville.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Thank you.

If I can

just add to that, Burgeo, we are looking at December, 2015.

That has one staff person out there.

We are working with that staff person now to try to find a good fit.

It is not a layoff. We are

trying to find other opportunities for that person.

We are thinking that they may go to Stephenville, or the opportunity may

exist for them to go to Port aux Basque to perform the same work they are doing

now. Historically, the caseload has

been very low, about ten. As you

have noted before, we have set our case ratio our target is one-in-twenty.

This

person has historically low levels.

If you look at the actual cases that are taking place in Burgeo itself, I think

there are two active cases for that one worker.

It is rather low. We have

actually been giving work from the Stephenville area, as well as some of the

casework from Port aux Basque, over to that worker to deal with in that position

because they have been so low.

We are

looking at bringing that person into working with the employee, hoping to

bring her in to Stephenville or look at other opportunities that may exist for

her to be able to work at the same job she is doing now, just from a different

location.

MS ROGERS:

How many positions in the

Piccadilly office?

MR. S. COLLINS:

In Piccadilly there are eight

positons. Gerry, if I can just go

on, in Stephenville Crossing there are seven positions.

That will be moved 2015-2016.

It will be transitioned into Stephenville.

Piccadilly will be

MS ROGERS:

Sorry, Stephenville is how

many positions?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Sorry, Stephenville Crossing

is seven positions.

MS ROGERS:

And they are all going to go

to Stephenville?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes.

MS ROGERS:

All seven?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Not immediately.

Correct, yes.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. S. COLLINS:

So 2015-2016 is our target

date for Stephenville Crossing. Then

Piccadilly is pushed off a little bit further.

There are eight positons in Piccadilly and that will be transitioned over

in 2016-2017.

MS ROGERS:

To?

MR. S. COLLINS:

To Stephenville.

MS ROGERS:

All eight positions?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Correct.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great thanks.

What

kind of work was done in the Piccadilly office for instance?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Sorry, Gerry, I do not want

to mislead there. There is a plan

for attrition with that office as well.

MS ROGERS:

Which one?

MR. S. COLLINS:

For Stephenville.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. S. COLLINS:

So over five years, if you were to take

those total numbers which I gave you, I think it add up to thirty.

Over five years, if case ratios stay where they are and we suspect where

they will be, we look at probably about twenty workers who would be able to

over five years ten positions through attrition.

That

will be adjusted. If we get more

case levels we have to our magic number is one to twenty, that ratio.

That is what guides us and guides all of what we do out in the region.

Based on that, when we look at it today we think it will probably be ten

positons through attrition, and still be able to remain one to twenty and not

impact front-line services.

MS ROGERS:

Those are in addition to some

of the other positons we see that are going?

They are not anywhere else, right?

MS COCHRANE:

Correct.

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

Correct.

This is a direct regional service

operations change.

MS ROGERS:

The salaries for those

positions are under the Purchased Services?

MS COCHRANE:

No.

Sorry, if I could. The

salaries are under Regional Services, Salaries.

MS ROGERS:

Under Salaries?

MS COCHRANE:

Yes, correct.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, so we saw there the 10

per cent to 15 per cent reduction and then there are twenty-one vacant

positions.

MS COCHRANE:

Right.

MS ROGERS:

This is an addition to that?

MS COCHRANE:

Correct.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

This is going to be over five years?

MS COCHRANE:

Through attrition, over five years.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

I think

that is all for that page.

Direct

Client Services.

CHAIR:

Subhead 3.1.01, page 15.7,

for those who are following along.

MS ROGERS:

Follow the bouncing ball I

am just looking at something here now.

Allowances and Assistance: In your revised amount for 2015, there was $20.8

million not spent. Can you tell me a

little bit about what is covered under Allowances and Assistance?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Thank you.

provides funding for direct payments to clients and third parties on behalf of

clients related to programs and services provided by the department.

Examples of payment include payments to foster parents and vendors for

goods and services on behalf of clients.

MS ROGERS:

Is there any intention to

raise the rates for foster parents this year?

MR. S. COLLINS:

I am actually happy to say

that we are very competitive.

Donna,

if you want to speak to rates across jurisdictions but I know when we attended

the Foster a Future Campaign and the Foster Families Association was there that

was one of the comments that came up.

They talked about how we were so competitive so I do not know, Gerry, if

anyway, I will let Donna speak to the specifics on it.

CHAIR:

Donna.

MS O'BRIEN:

I will say to you, Ms Rogers, that early in 2013 we introduced a new payment

structure for foster families and we made some significant increases in the

investments to foster families. Not

only are we competitive with other jurisdictions, for many jurisdictions we have

exceeded their rates. In some cases,

we have almost doubled certain basic rates, depending on the type of care that

is being provided by families.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

Thank you, Donna. You can

call me Gerry.

The

difference, though, in the budget and what was revised was $20.8 million.

Can you tell me why that was so?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes, that was primarily due

to a change in expenditures from Allowances and Assistance to Grants and

Subsidies resulting from the contract signed with residential service providers,

those being the Level 4. So the

budget was transferred from Allowances and Assistance to Grants and Subsidies.

CHAIR:

Okay, Gerry, I am going to

ask you to save the rest of your thoughts for a moment.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Jim.

MR. J. BENNETT:

We went through foster care,

there are other living arrangements for young people when they turn sixteen,

some of them can go independent. I

am not sure what we call it, independent living or whatever.

I am thinking emancipated minors, but I know we do not use that term

here.

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

It is our Youth Services Program.

They sign youth services agreements.

MR. J. BENNETT:

How many do we have

currently?

MS COCHRANE:

Sorry, I have to defer

CHAIR:

Michelle.

MS SHALLOW:

We have about 150 young people who are taking advantage of our Youth Services

Program through those signed agreements.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Are they living independently

and they are supported, or are they in some sort of other arrangement?

CHAIR:

Michelle.

MS SHALLOW:

The youth that we are supporting are unable to live with their family, due to

them being in need of protection.

So, we would work within the community to determine the best residential

facility for them.

We often

try to maintain them if they were in our custody, we would try to maintain

them in their arrangement, whether it is a foster home or a residential home, or

try to support them with family or in a supportive-type living arrangement.

However, it is a voluntary program and at the end of the day they can

make a decision to reside where they want.

MR. J. BENNETT:

What sort of budget do you

have for accommodations for such a person, an individual?

MS SHALLOW:

We have a series of rates for the program that are outlined in our Policies and

Procedures Manual, which is on the government website and would be available for

your viewing, that would outline what we would pay for a monthly rate of

allowance for a young person to live independently in the community and other

supporting payments, such as for food and basic living expenses, graduation

costs. It is a very thorough set of

financial supports that we have actually built over the past five, six years.

It is a pretty significant support package for these young people.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Is there a requirement that

they be attending school, or can they simply be living on their own because they

want to live on their own?

MS SHALLOW:

The Youth Services Program

can be for young people who in our custody before they were sixteen or they can

come to us at the age of sixteen, and being in school is not a requirement to be

a part of that program. The

requirement is that the young person would have to be in need of protective

intervention as defined under our legislation.

We would apply the same

definitions to youth as we would to a child,

different assessment processes but the same legal determination.

MR. J. BENNETT:

To what age does it go?

MS SHALLOW:

Eighteen.

There are some exceptions, but generally it is eighteen and beyond that.

MR. J. BENNETT:

If they are in full-time

attendance at a school or college or university, is there a provision that it be

extended?

MS SHALLOW:

We provide services and we

actually enhanced the legislation in 2011 to allow young people to stay until

they are nineteen, if they are in a school program.

MR. J. BENNETT:

It goes to how old?

MS SHALLOW:

Nineteen, which is the age of

majority.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

Are

there other arrangements for foster care, foster parents past nineteen?

MS SHALLOW:

For children in care?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Yes.

MS SHALLOW:

If you were in care and are

wanting to attend any kind of post-secondary or schooling program and you were

in the custody of one of our zone managers, we would support you up until your

twenty-first birthday and provide full payment for post-secondary education.

MR. J. BENNETT:

What would the distinction be

between someone who was eligible to remain in care until twenty-one versus

nineteen?

MS SHALLOW:

The distinction would be if

you were in our custody before you were sixteen.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Before you are sixteen.

MS SHALLOW:

Yes.

We would have a different type of responsibility to children who are in

our custody and grew up in our foster care system.

MR. J. BENNETT:

It goes on through to

twenty-one if you are attending post-secondary.

MS SHALLOW:

That is correct.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Now, I am looking at page

15.7, which is 3.1.01.

CHAIR:

Page 15.7, Direct Client

Services, 3.1.01.

MR. J. BENNETT:

The page that most people

have been waiting for: the last page.

CHAIR:

Here you go.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Just kidding.

Allowances and Assistance initially was budgeted at $72 million and then only

$51 million was used. The line next

to that was budgeted at $15 million and ended up at $32 million.

Did some move from one line to the other?

The overall total, the differential is only $4 million,

whereas in the

top line it is about $17 million?

What is actually happening there?

CHAIR:

Rachelle, do you want to

MS COCHRANE:

Under Allowances and Assistance, for 2015-2016 our estimate is $16 million less

than in the 2014-2015 budget. The

variance is due to really an accounting transaction for a budget transfer

mentioned above. So we have moved

that from Allowances and Assistance to Grants and Subsidies.

It is just an accounting, in and out.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Really it is the same money.

MS COCHRANE:

It is in and out, that is right. It

is in different accounts.

The

offset is also partially increased the following increases in our budget are

due to some additional revenue for home support increase related to minimum

wage. So we have some of our Level 4

homes that we will give them additional funding as minimum wage goes up.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I missed where that was.

MS COCHRANE:

It is out of Allowances and Assistance and it is now moved into Grants and

Subsidies.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

You said some of it is related to minimum wage positions?

MS COCHRANE:

Yes, if I could. For 2015-2016, you

see there is a bit of a difference there.

It is not just an exact amount transferred.

There is a difference of about $600,000.

That is due to additional money we will be giving to some of Level 4s,

associated with the cost of the increase in minimum wage.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Where are they working?

What type of services are they preforming?

MS COCHRANE:

They are providing some type of care for the children we have in our In Care

Program who are living in group homes.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Are they primarily in St.

John's?

MS COCHRANE: No,

they are throughout the Province.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay. How many residents would a

group home have?

MS COCHRANE: It

can vary from one to four, depending on the needs and depending on the home.

MR. J. BENNETT:

So the people providing the services, they are doing cooking or cleaning?

What are they doing?

MS COCHRANE:

They would be assisting the children with daily living.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Okay.

MS COCHRANE: The

social workers who would be in those homes are more of the clinical types.

They would be providing more comprehensive supports to make sure the

children are behavior issues and things of that nature.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Almost like surrogate parents.

MS COCHRANE:

Pardon me?

MR. J. BENNETT:

Almost like surrogate parents.

MS COCHRANE:

Well these kids are in our care.

They needed protection from their families.

They still need care and I guess,

yes, we are providing that

care.

MR. J. BENNETT:

The federal revenue amount

was $11 million higher than budgeted.

The feds are not that generous so why did they pay more money?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

I call it an accounting

error, but it is not really an accounting error the accountants tell me.

However

MR. S. COLLINS:

That was from the federal

government, correct?

MS COCHRANE:

The feds made the error, not

us.

MR. S. COLLINS:

For the record.

OFFICIAL:

Just to clarify.

MS COCHRANE:

Just to be clear, yes.

The

variance is due we received two years of revenue in one year.

They were late sending us the cheque.

The bills were to them by the end of March and we did not get the cheque

until the end of June. Hence it has

to get recorded in this year.

MR. J. BENNETT:

So was that for the prior

year? It is not double

MS COCHRANE:

Yes, it was for 2013-2014.

They gave us two years in one, so they gave us the revenue for 2013-2014

and 2014-2015.

MR. J. BENNETT:

So it is like $11 million

plus $13.5 million.

MS COCHRANE:

That is right.

MR. J. BENNETT:

They were slow in paying

really.

MS COCHRANE:

Slow in paying their bills.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I am going to defer to Ms

Rogers.

CHAIR:

Gerry.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

Thanks Jim.

If we

could go back there to Allowances and Assistance, Grants and Subsidies, can we

have a list of I know you do not want to reveal the names of foster homes,

that kind of thing, but can we have a list of all the Allowances and Assistance,

Grants and Subsidies, the list of group homes, who runs the group homes, and how

many children or youth are in each group home?

OFFICIAL:

Capacity?

MS ROGERS:

Capacity and also, I guess,

whether they are filled or not. I

know to have the number of beds per night

MR. S. COLLINS:

Yes, beds available.

Generally we are good on capacity.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

Okay.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Sure, absolutely.

MS ROGERS:

As you can imagine I am

horrified to think that anybody working in a Level4 home would be paid minimum

wage and that we would have to augment that money.

Are there people in our Level 4 group homes being paid minimum wage?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

Yes.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

So the owners or the service providers of each group home and can we

see their contracts?

MS COCHRANE:

I stand to be corrected, but

I think the contracts may be online.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, the contracts that is

right I saw them last year. That is

right. The appendices are not

though.

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

Some of the information is

proprietary.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MS COCHRANE:

We cannot release the

information that would for corporate reasons.

We have released as much of the contract as we can provide without

affecting the rights for privacy.

MS ROGERS:

Ongoing training and

professional development for workers in the group homes; I cannot remember, is

that built in to their contracts? Is

there money provided in their contracts for professional development and ongoing

training?

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

We have a list of quality

items that we require our group homes to comply with.

There are certainly some strong compliance issues in their contract.

For example, they have to have completed experience and completion of a

program in dealing with children.

That is in their contract. We also

monitor the group homes our social workers are in.

They meet with the child or youth once a month and they also do a review

of the home.

addition, the homes are required and this is because we have these contracts

with them now. We can put these

things in a contract. They are also

required to file a quarterly report with us.

That report outlines the number of children, the substance of the child,

and what their plan is, a clinical plan for the child.

So if it is behaviour issues, what services they are providing to that

child to deal with the behaviour issues, and what is their education goal as an

example. In many instances you will

see something on employment as a child gets older, so what the plan is for the

child. That comes in as well on a

quarterly basis.

We are

just starting now in the contracts as well they are required to file annual

reports with us. We are about to

start that for the ones we have one-year contracts with and that are now at the

end of that cycle.

MS ROGERS:

How many group homes do you

have one-year contracts with?

MS COCHRANE:

I do not have the number

right in front of me, but there are a few.

I would think maybe forty to fifty.

MS ROGERS:

How many group homes do we

have?

MS COCHRANE:

Fifty-two.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MS COCHRANE:

Just give me one second.

We have fifty-two homes for a total of 142 beds in those homes.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Do we

have any kids or youth in Alternate Living Arrangements, ALAs, right now?

CHAIR:

Donna.

MS O'BRIEN:

Gerry, as you asked me to

call you, when we let the contracts last spring for Level 4 resources, there

continued to be a need to have some level of and when we say ALAs, for

clarification, for anyone in this room, they are CYFS staffed homes in a very

short-term emergency types of situation.

We had managed three homes; we are now down to one home.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

MS O'BRIEN:

I do believe that, at least in the near future, we will maintain one residence,

but we fully expect between now and the end of June that we will not have any

CYFS staffed living arrangements at this point.

We will continue to lease a home from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing,

should an emergency need ever be required where we have to place.

More

often than not children placed in our ALAs are there for a few days until they

are able to be placed most appropriately; but, on a Friday night, there may not

be a good, suitable match immediately and, therefore, they are there on a very

short term. Some children are there

longer because they are not easily matched with other groups, particularly if

there are larger sibling groups, things of that nature.

Our primary goal is always to find a more natural family environment, a

foster home, for children wherever we can.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

The

three group homes that were closed and then transferred over to Blue sky last

year, Grand Falls-Windsor, Burin, Stephenville, are they established now in

communities?

MS O'BRIEN:

Yes, they are.

For clarification purposes, the group home in Western is not in

Stephenville; it is in Corner Brook.

MS ROGERS:

It is now in Corner Brook?

MS O'BRIEN:

It is in Corner Brook.

It was established in Corner Brook.

MS ROGERS:

So they are established

MS O'BRIEN:

They are up and they are

running, and they are at somewhere in the range between an 85 per cent to 90 per

cent occupancy at all times.

MS ROGERS:

What about the Burin one?

Where is that now?

MS O'BRIEN:

The Burin one is actually in

Marystown itself. The Burin group

home, the T.J. McDonald group home, was on the border of Marystown and Burin, so

it is all in the same community.

MS ROGERS:

The Grand Falls-Windsor,

where is that?

MS O'BRIEN:

It is in Grand Falls-Windsor.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

What is

up with the Botwood group home? Who

owns that? What is going on there?

MS O'BRIEN:

Botwood is actually an

emergency placement home; it is intended to be for short-term placement.

When you ask what is up with the Botwood group home, I think I will defer

to the minister or the minister can defer back to me, if he so chooses.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Thank you.

The

children and youth that we have going in these homes have very high needs.

So from time to time, there will be situations obviously when you have

someone in there we have specialized staff in there with training to deal with

situations.

MS ROGERS:

Who is running this place?

MR. S. COLLINS:

Blue sky.

MS ROGERS:

Blue sky, and there is

specialized staff?

MR. S. COLLINS:

There are trained staff, of

course.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. S. COLLINS:

From time to time, you have

instances arise again, we are dealing with very vulnerable people, people with

special needs. I think what you are

referring to is probably a news story that was in the media recently.

I would say that is one of those situations and particularly when these

homes are operating in small towns, something may be newsworthy;

whereas if it

were in your District of St. John's Centre, that same lens would not be applied

to it. So we may not even know.

There are a number of these homes operating in St. John's and we are not

even aware they are there, many of us.

There is a little bit of that going on as well, which is unfortunate.

MS ROGERS:

If it is an emergency

placement, these are kids with really high needs

MR. S. COLLINS:

Absolutely.

MS ROGERS:

so there are specially

trained staff for the needs of this house.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Blue sky would have trained

staff, yes.

MS ROGERS:

Okay, great.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Qualified staff, I think,

would be the more appropriate term.

MS ROGERS:

Okay.

We will

get a list then of the staffing there, great.

I just have a few questions.

Thank

you so much. I know everybody has

had a really long day.

CHAIR:

Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE:

I just have to make a correction for the record, if I could.

It is not that our group home staff are paid the minimum wage; it is that

the home support that is needed for families, those individuals are paid at the

minimum wage.

MS ROGERS:

What is that?

CHAIR:

Donna.

MS O'BRIEN:

I can speak to that.

Sometimes we support families in the provision of respite services, community

access types of services, including child care like babysitting and things of

that nature; more often than not, they are at the minimum wage.

Families actually purchase that service themselves and we assist them.

Generally speaking, that is of that nature.

Generally, in our group homes not generally, the group homes, the EPHs,

and the individualized living arrangements are not paid minimum wage; they are

paid higher than minimum wage. More

often than not, I think in the majority of the cases they are negotiated rates

because they are unionized staffing and whatnot, just for clarification

purposes.

MS ROGERS:

Great.

This

would be the Jones family, they have a child, they are under stress and so they

have a respite worker come in

MS O'BRIEN:

It is possible on an individual basis.

We access that from what we call families who are on the PIP, the

Protective Intervention file; but as well, we have foster families who are

caring for very high-needs children who may need some level of respite

themselves, or may need some level of additional support in addition to the

package of services that we provide.

MS ROGERS:

Yes.

MS O'BRIEN:

From time to time we will provide funding to those families to purchase those

services so they get that much-needed relief when they require it.

CHAIR:

Jim.

MR. J. BENNETT:

The 1 to 20 ratio, how

universal is that; or are there areas where it is a much higher ratio due to the

size of the caseload, like rural versus urban or whatever?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Thank you.

I will

get Donna probably to go into specifics, but it is true so 1 to 20 is what our

focus is and we have reached that goal in many areas; however, as we have

acknowledged earlier with cases particularly in Labrador, coastal Labrador,

those numbers are higher. With the

six new positions, we are trying to get to that number.

Again even if we have the positions available, filling those positions is

somewhat challenging, as you can appreciate.

So, challenges do exist, particularly I would say in coastal Labrador.

I do not

know, Donna, if you wanted to add to that.

CHAIR:

Donna.

MS O'BRIEN:

I will say a 1 to 20 ratio

when our services transitioned into a new Department of CYFS, the caseloads

certainly were not at the level that they are now.

One to 20, you need a target in which to focus upon and 1 to 20 has been

that established target. It is based

on best practice models not only across the country, but generally speaking in

the Western world, I would certainly say that.

Some

caseloads are not necessarily 1 to 20 because of the specialization of them.

We are talking about on average on a ratio, on the basis of how the

caseloads are assigned. So we do a

general averaging of a 1 to 20. If

you have very high-risk cases, you may have a mix of high and lower risk cases,

or you may have a smaller number with very high risk; but the average overall

from a departmental perspective is 1 to 20, which is considered to be an

acceptable, reasonable industry standard from a social work practice

perspective.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Donna, if you just want to

elaborate

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. S. COLLINS:

Thank you.

If you

just want to elaborate, not all cases are equal because that is something I have

learned as well. So twenty cases,

you may have adoptions in there, you may have something that is in process

MS O'BRIEN:

Absolutely not.

You would weigh them at the level of needs and the level of engagement

that is required. Generally

speaking, across this Province not without exception, but generally speaking,

we have what we will call a mixed caseload so that to the extent that we can, we

try to maintain the 1 to 20 to have a mixture of very highly complex cases along

with more lower maintenance types of activities in terms of the numbers of

visits that would be required, the level of documentation that would be

required.

A case

is not necessarily a case, which is a case.

MR. J. BENNETT:

I understand that and this

comes from one of the Advocate's reports there is some concern about the

social worker providing different services to a young person, and there may be

some conflict whether that person is providing some sort of service related to

the justice system versus the other parts of the system.

Do you have cases where somebody might be seen as being in a conflict

whereby they have to oversee their probation order, or while at the same time

they are supposed to be providing other social services to them?

MS O'BRIEN:

Where the youth or the child has a corrections component and as well may require

some other level of service and I am just wondering, if perhaps Paula Rodgers,

who is our executive director who is working through those issues with the

Advocate, can speak to that?

CHAIR:

Paula?

MS RODGERS:

Yes, I have had ongoing consultation with the Advocate on that very issue over

the last several months in particular.

I totally appreciate, from the Advocate's perspective, where she is

coming from.

I think

she is primarily concerned about a youth who is involved with Youth Services and

who is also involved in the Youth Corrections Program.

From the youth's perspective they do feel they are being serviced by a

probation officer. When they have

other, what I call, therapeutic needs to talk about things that are troubling

them, they may not perceive the corrections worker as a person who they can go

to.

We are

having ongoing discussions regarding that.

We have a meeting coming up very shortly to propose some options to the

Advocate, but I do believe we are going to come to a positive resolution there.

MR. J. BENNETT:

So the young person

presumably there would be an obligation for the person working in Youth

Corrections to report to Corrections.

MS RODGERS:

Absolutely.

MR. J. BENNETT:

Whereas on the social work

side, there would be an obligation to provide confidential counsel to the young

person.

MS RODGERS:

Yes, but where the complexity comes in to that, both individuals so the Youth

Services person