Government Services Committee — Department of Finance and the Public Service Commission, can I have a motion? MR. DINN: So moved. — 7 May 2012

2012-05-07

Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees

May 7,

2012 GOVERNMENT

SERVICES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 6:00 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Forsey): Good evening, everyone.

What we will do first before the minister gets into his overview I guess, and

it will probably take a while according to the numbers, we will start on this

side and introduce the Committee and their staff. You can start up here.

MR. LANE: Paul Lane, MHA for the District of Mount Pearl South.

MR. PEACH: Calvin Peach, MHA for the District of Bellevue.

MR. FLEMING: Mark Fleming, staff of the Official Opposition Office.

MR. EDMUNDS: Randy Edmunds, MHA for Torngat Mountains.

MS PLOUGHMAN: Kim Ploughman, Researcher, Official Opposition Office.

MR. DINN: John Dinn, MHA for Kilbride.

MR. MURPHY: George Murphy, MHA for St. John's East, NDP.

CHAIR: We have one more.

MR. BURRY: Jeremy Burry, Research Assistant, NDP.

CHAIR: Before we get to your side there, Minister, the minutes of the

last Estimates of the Department of Finance and the Public Service Commission,

can I have a motion?

MR. DINN: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by John Dinn.

Minister, you can introduce your staff or they can introduce themselves.

Before we get into the review we will call for the subheads. So, if you want to

get into the introductions first.

MR. DAVIS: Whichever way you want me to do it, and if you want them to

introduce themselves to make sure that their microphones are functioning and all

that good stuff.

CHAIR: Yes, sure.

MR. DAVIS: I will start with Mr. Norman on my left.

MR. NORMAN: David Norman, Deputy Minister, Service NL.

MR. JONES: Scott Jones, Departmental Comptroller, Service NL.

MS PAYNE: Sonya Payne, Director of Planning, Government Purchasing

Agency.

MS MACDONALD: Ellen MacDonald, Chief Information Officer, OCIO.

MS TILLEY: Jean Tilley, Executive Director, OCIO.

MS BRAGG: Jennifer Bragg, Manager of Financial Operations, OCIO.

MS TRICKETT: Wanda Trickett, Departmental Comptroller, Executive Council.

MR. MAHONEY: Tom Mahoney, Executive Director at the Workplace, Health

Safety and Compensation Commission.

MS GALWAY: Leslie Galway, CEO of Workplace, Health Safety and

Compensation Commission.

MS DUNPHY: Kim Dunphy, Assistant Deputy Minister, Occupational Health and

Safety Branch.

MS KELLAND: Donna Kelland, Assistant Deputy Minister, Government Services

Branch, Service NL.

MR. BURKE: Gerry Burke, Director of Consumer Affairs.

MS COCHRANE: Rachelle Cochrane, CEO, Labour Relations Agency.

MS DAY: Elizabeth Day, Director of Policy and Strategic Planning, Service

NL.

MS BRENTON: Barbara Brenton, Director of Strategic and Human Resource

Management, Service NL.

MR. DONOVAN: Hugh Donovan, Director of Communications, Service NL.

CHAIR: I asked for a motion on the minutes but I did not ask for a vote

on it.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: The last minutes.

Okay, thank you.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: What we will do is call for we are going to start with OCIO

first. Only the committee members will ask the questions, Minister, and you can

answer or one of your staff can answer. We will call for the subheads of OCIO.

Start with the subhead.

CLERK (Ms Murphy): What page is that?

CHAIR: Page 2.17.

CLERK: Subhead 4.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 4.1.01.

Minister.

MR. DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Committee.

I would like to open tonight by just an overview of the department and some

of the operations that exist within the five different entities that are

represented here this evening.

Service NL delivers citizen protection services to the public in areas of

public health and safety, environmental protection, occupational health and

safety, consumer and financial interests, and in the provision and preservation

of vital events and documents.

In addition, through the Office of the Queen's Printer, the department

provides printing, micrographic and digital document services for government and

for the general public, including copies of provincial legislation, the

Newfoundland and Labrador Gazette , and select documents and books. The

department also is responsible for the leadership and ongoing co-ordination of

government's regulatory reform mandate.

The Department of Service NL was created with the aim of consolidating where

possible the licensing, permitting, inspection and regulatory functions within

government, and providing a single window point of access to the public for

those services. The authority to carry out the department's mandate is derived

from over 175 statutes and regulations, as well as standards and codes of

practice. Do not ask me to name them, because I am not going to do that.

The operating budget for Service NL, including GPA and also the Workplace

Health, Safety and Compensation Review Division, this year is $47,089,000.

Service NL employs 551 employees; 489 are permanent and sixty are temporary

across the Province. It is comprised of three branches: the Government Services

Branch, the Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch, and the Occupational Health

and Safety Branch.

The minister is responsible for eleven public entities in addition to Service

NL. Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission is a category 1 entity,

as defined by the Transparency and Accountability Act, and prepares an

independent strategic plan and annual report to the House of Assembly upon

approval of the Minister of Service NL. The Credit Union Deposit Guarantee

Corporation, the Government Purchasing Agency, and the Office of the Chief

Information Officer are category 2 entities and provide independent business

plans and annual reports.

The remaining seven entities are considered category 3 entities and prepare

activity plans and annual reports. These seven include: the Public Safety Appeal

Board, the Advisory Council on Occupational Health and Safety, Buildings

Financial Services Appeal Board, Radiation Health and Safety Advisory Committee,

and the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Review Division.

In addition, I have the responsibility for oversight of the Public Utilities

Board mandate with respect to auto insurance and the Petroleum Products Pricing

Office, the Government Purchasing Agency, the Credit Union Deposit Guarantee

Corporation, the Office of the Chief Information Officer, and the Workplace

Health, Safety and Compensation Commission report, independently to the

minister. As such, each of these entities prepares independent three-year plans

and annual reports.

The Government Service Branch provides a variety of services internally to

government and externally to the people of the Province. This is accomplished

through the branch's six divisions, which are: Government Service Centres,

Program and Support Services, Motor Registration, Engineering and Inspections

Services, Vital Statistics, and the Office of the Queen's Printer, printing of

micrographic services.

The Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch regulates consumer protection and

provincial financial services, facilitates commerce in the Province, regulates

private employer pension plans and public sector pension plans, and maintains

nine legal registries for the Province. The branch is comprised of four

divisions, being: Financial Services Regulation, Commercial Registrations,

Consumer Affairs, and the Pension Benefits Standards.

The Occupational Health and Safety Branch, or OHS Branch as we know it,

protects the health and safety of the Province's workforce through the

development and enforcement of occupational health and safety legislation, the

inspection of workplaces, the investigation of workplace complaints, incidents

and serious injuries and fatalities. Occupational health and safety enforcement

is a compliance-based program where severe penalties can and have been filed for

failure to meet statutory and regulatory obligations, regardless of whether the

non-compliance resulted in an injury for the purpose of insurance considerations

by the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission.

The OHS Branch is comprised of four operational units: Inspections,

Occupational Health, Compliance and Regulatory Affairs, and the Standards and

Regulatory Development.

As Minister of Service NL, I am responsible for the Government Purchasing

Agency. The Government Purchasing Agency is an independent branch of the public

service under the management and control of the Chief Operating Officer. The

agency operates under the authority of the Government Purchasing Agency Act and

the Public Tender Act.

The Government Purchasing Agency Act outlines the mandate of the agency and

provides for its operation. The Public Tender Act is the primary legislation

that governs procurement within the public sector.

As Minister of Service NL, I am also the Minister Responsible for the Office

of the Chief Information Officer, or most of us know them as OCIO. The Office of

the Chief Information Officer has approximately 379 positions and 301 permanent

positions and seventy-eight temporary positions. The majority of the employees

are located in offices throughout St. John's; however, there are employees

distributed amongst regional offices in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Corner Brook,

Stephenville, Grand Falls-Windsor, Gander, Marystown, and Clarenville. The

operating budget for OCIO this year is $121,352,900.

The Office of the Chief Information Officer operates as an entity within the

Executive Council, and is governed by the Executive Council Act. The Office of

the Chief Information Officer is responsible for information technology and

information management co-ordination, planning, budgeting, and policy

development; for developing and operating computer systems and infrastructure

for government departments, agencies, boards, and commissions that are directly

supported by the administrative support services of the departments; and

expenditures and procurement of information technologies, goods and services;

administering the Management of Information Act; and managing information

technology related agreements, contracts.

They are also responsible for providing consultative services, particularly

in the area of information management; working collaboratively with the private

information technology sector to maximize business opportunities, while meeting

the information technology and information management needs of government.

In addition, as minister, I am also responsible for the Workplace Health,

Safety and Compensation Commission, or WHSCC, or sometimes called the

Commission. Serving approximately 12,000 injured workers and over 17,000

employers, the Commission is the Province's no-fault workplace insurance system

which was established in 1951 as part of a historic compromise between workers

and employers.

The compromise was to provide workplace injury compensation and health care

benefits to injured workers through employer-generated assessments or premiums.

Since that time, the Commission has expanded significantly to provide a number

of additional services including return-to-work programs, labour market re-entry

programs, prevention services, and coverage for occupational disease

initiatives, among many other programs. The Commission has 403 employment

positions, among these, 363 are permanent, and forty-one are considered to be

temporary.

Finally, as minister, I am also responsible for the Workplace Health, Safety

and Compensation Review Division. The Review Division was established in 1994 by

legislative amendment to the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Act, and

it is the final level of review within the workers' compensation system in this

Province.

The Review Division is an independent quasi-judicial body consisting of a

panel of review commissioners which includes the chief review commissioner. The

Review Division is responsible for reviewing decisions of the Commission to

ensure that those decisions were made in accordance with the act, regulations,

and the policies as approved by the Commission board of directors. The Review

Division has twelve employment positions, among them eight are permanent, and

four are considered to be temporary.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks and I look forward to any

questions or comments from the Committee. We will do our best to provide what

information we can to you.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

The Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission is that what we

call Occupational Health and Safety now, or what we used to?

MR. DAVIS: No, sir.

Mr. Chair, if you are looking for Estimates for the Commission, you will not

find them in our Estimates book. The Commission is funded by premiums or by

assessments by employers in Newfoundland and Labrador. So the Commission is

funded by the employers of Newfoundland and Labrador. The goal is to provide

benefits to workers in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is not funded by

government.

CHAIR: For the sake of the Committee as well, Randy and George there is

a little bit of a lapse there we were planning on doing the smaller ones, if

you would call them smaller or not, with OCIO first. Then when they are

finished, they can leave and we will just continue on like that.

What we will do is start with Randy, usually fifteen minutes if you need it.

If we need any more than that we will go to George for fifteen, then come back

again and alternate as such. That is if we need that much time. When we are

finished, of course, we can continue with the next subhead.

Randy, you can start.

MR. EDMUNDS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As the minister stated, there is nothing in the Budget which mentions OCIO. A

lot of my questions are going to come on the overall Budget as presented, and a

few questions on different departments throughout. With the lack of information

in the Estimates on OCIO, there are not a whole lot of questions we can ask.

I had assumed the minster had his entire staff here by the number of people

across the way there.

CHAIR: If I may, Randy, as we get into the different ones, like

Government Purchasing and so on, you can ask those questions then. If you have a

couple of questions on OCIO, that is fine. You can do your line item if you

want. Then you can also ask a question in general, if you wish.

MR. EDMUNDS: The first question and we have seen it in other Estimates

is a list of staff and salaries, with the immediate staff for OCIO.

CHAIR: Yes, on page 2.17

in the Estimates book.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: If you want, Randy, maybe we can ask George. If you have any

questions on OCIO because usually it is not a big lot of questions asked on

OCIO. If you want, we can go to George. Do you have any questions on OCIO,

George?

MR. MURPHY: There are a couple of questions I guess, but first of all,

just some general comments.

I want to thank your staff, Mr. Minister, for showing up here today to answer

any questions that we do have. First off, and foremost, I know it takes

sometimes a pretty huge sacrifice to get your work done, and I know that your

staff are fairly dedicated. I hope they are meeting the everyday challenges.

I want to thank them for their time to come in here and do this. I know there

are times when your staff have probably been called to answer to any number of

concerns on the part of the people of the Province and I want to thank you for

your conviction to your Province in carrying out your duties everyday. So, I

figured I would open up with that.

Yes, Mr. Minister, when we are talking about line items, Office of the Chief

Information Officer, the first thing that comes to mind,

section 4.1.01

Corporate Operations and Client Services. There is a difference there in

Salaries between this year and the actual that was attained, by about $200,000

difference here in that particular line item. Again, with that same line item,

the Estimates for 2012-2013 are going to be down from the actual this year. I

wonder if you can explain that line for us.

MR. DAVIS: I certainly can. There is about a $200,000 deficit there. That

was mainly due to temporary staff hires for administrative functions, and as

well as some overtime that occurred during the year.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

As well in that

section 06 Purchased Services, $128,600 budgeted against

$85,300 in actual that was spent but the budget for that particular line item

for 2012-2013 is going to be the same, $128,600.

MR. DAVIS: I am sorry, which line is that?

MR. MURPHY: Purchased Services, line 06 in that same section, 4.1.01

Corporate Operations and Client Services.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, there is about a $43,000 difference. Is that the one you

are referring to?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, that is the one, sir.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, about a $43,000 difference, and that was pertaining to

lease-to-own contracts expired on two photocopiers. There was also lower than

anticipated training expenses, and there was more printing that had been done

in-house. That was primarily the differences in that line.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. I am just wondering, you may have a figure around it

but when it comes to lease to own, that one kind of surprises me that government

did not purchase outright for that.

Do you have any other numbers in your department as regards to how many of

these machines are out there that would be lease to own in a situation like

that?

MR. DAVIS: I do not have a number offhand. Quite often when those

contracts are done and I would think that quite often lease to own would be a

normal process when it comes to types of equipment, such as photocopiers. You

may find it both ways. Quite often they are done through the usual processes of

tenders or RFPs, as the case may be.

MR. MURPHY: Right, okay.

So, we do not have a solid inventory number or anything like that we can go

by as regards to the equipment?

MR. DAVIS: No.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, alright.

Further up in Transportation and Communications on line 03 as well, $174,000

budgeted, $195,000 actual that was spent, and $174,000 again for this year.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, the $21,000 increase was due to staff on off-site

projects. There were some additional costs there which were essentially because

of the transportation and communications that occurred because of off-site

projects that occurred there. The change for this year reflects anticipated

expenditures for this area. It basically comes down to what the needs are

anticipated for next year.

MR. MURPHY: The needs are going to be less than the actual this time?

MR. DAVIS: They are, yes.

MR. MURPHY: Because I noticed the budgeted amount is the same for last

year.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, those extra amounts were because of the off-site needs

that occurred.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Section 4.1.02 Information Management, under Salaries as well; there is a bit

of a drop when it comes to Salaries in that section, $1,557,900 was the actual

budgeted and the revised figure is $1,274,800. Again, for that particular line

figure the Salaries are projected to be up for this year. I wonder if you could

give us an overview.

MR. DAVIS: I can. On the first part, the $283,000 savings is primarily

due to delayed recruitment in filling vacant positions. It also is a result of

employee turnover that has happened. It is generally vacancies throughout the

year.

In the $57,400 increase for this year, it is a combination of two repatriated

positions, which I will explain to you now momentarily, and a salary funding

reallocation to the Corporate Operations and Client Services.

Repatriated positions, I should point out to you that there are a large

number of positions at OCIO that are contract positions. They are actual

employees who work in OCIO that are contracted from private companies. We are in

the process of repatriating those positions, to make those positions become

government employees once again.

MR. MURPHY: Permanent government, okay.

MR. DAVIS: Yes. We anticipate it would make an impact overall of this

year

OFFICIAL: This year the savings is $2.9 million.

MR. MURPHY: I cannot hear you, I am sorry.

OFFICIAL: It is $2.9 million in savings.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, $2.9 million.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, that will be this year, Mr. Murphy.

MR. MURPHY: Yes. So, I take it for line 05 in this same

section it might

have all to do with that as well.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. MURPHY: For the recruitment and everything, the $500,000 difference

there?

MR. DAVIS: That is exactly what it is, yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. We can pick the bones out of this one quick enough.

That is not bad.

Solution Delivery, 4.1.03.01, you were not far off the budgeted, I guess,

$34,000 it looks like. It looks like a huge increase in the budget there, I

wonder if you can give me an explanation on that one?

MR. DAVIS: Yes, the same thing again. That is basically a combination of

seven repatriated positions and salary funding reallocations from the Operations

Branch. So, that is seven more repatriated positions.

MR. MURPHY: I thought government was cutting back on a lot of positions,

though you seem to be hiring.

MR. DAVIS: Well, we are. What is happening, these positions currently

exist but we are essentially paying private companies to fill that position.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, but these are going to become, again, government

positions. So we are not going to have to worry too much about paying out for

that.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, they will become government employees. The same if you go

to Professional Services; you will see the opposite occur there again.

MR. MURPHY: All right, that is what I sort of figured out for that line,

too.

As regards to Transportation and Communications in that section, line 03,

gone from $184,600 was the actual. I noticed there was a huge drop there in

those numbers from what was budgeted and projected for 2012-2013 down to

$101,000. I wonder if you can make that one a little bit more clear for

everybody.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, I certainly can. On the revised from budget for last year

there is a $36,400 difference, that is due to a lower than anticipated cost on a

project, for travel on a specific project.

MR. MURPHY: Can you give us any detail on what that project was?

MR. DAVIS: Certainly, yes. It is a CYFS project Child, Youth and Family

Services project.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: In this year's budget, the decrease of $120,000 relates to

projects requiring less travel funds in 2012-2013 such as vital statistics and

vessel management.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. Just a little bit more clarification on that CYFS

project any further detail on what that project was?

MR. DAVIS: Yes, that is a case management project that is currently

underway.

MR. MURPHY: So we cannot get into any other detail other than that?

MR. DAVIS: Child, Youth and Family Services require case management

capabilities.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. DAVIS: This is a project, especially with the new department being

set up.

MR. MURPHY: I was thinking for a second that it might have been a

particular case, so just in case there were any names that might have come up.

Okay, that is good.

MR. DAVIS: No, it is just case management for caseworkers or for social

workers.

MR. MURPHY: Right, that is great.

Farther down as well Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $86,500 was

budgeted, $298,400 spent. This year $29,300 projected to be spent this year in

the budget 4.1.03, Solution Delivery, line 07.

MR. DAVIS: There was just under $212,000 due to higher than budgeted

hardware requirements, again for CYFS departmental IT set up. You know that

there are changes happening, new offices being established.

MR. MURPHY: Right.

MR. DAVIS: That amount was higher than what was initially budgeted.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: The decrease of $57,000 is related to decreased requirements

for project hardware purchases.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

CHAIR: George, do you have many more?

MR. MURPHY: No, just one more

section right here in Application Services,

4.1.04.

CHAIR: That is okay.

MR. MURPHY: Unless my time is (inaudible)

CHAIR: No, if you had a few we would go back to Randy

MR. MURPHY: I will just finish up this

section then.

CHAIR: You can do that if you wish, sure.

MR. MURPHY: Then we will pass it back to Randy and Randy should be ready

to go then.

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Mr. Minister, 4.1.04. Application Services, in line 01 as

regards to Salaries, I noticed that you did not spend that much. Well I should

not say you did not spend that much. There is about $7 million gone there the

year, but there was $8 million approximately that was budgeted there. That

amount is projected to be higher than what was budgeted for last year. I am

wondering if you can explain that.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, there is a difference there of just over $1,011,000. That

was due to delayed recruitment, employee turnover and then also some vacancies

throughout the year. There are also savings resulted from the temporary internal

resource assigned to solution delivery projects, and the budget to eventually

support these systems was also implemented.

MR. MURPHY: The increase in Salaries this year would be

MR. DAVIS: The increase in Salaries this year of $135,000 from last year

is a combination of nine repatriated positions.

MR. MURPHY: They are working cheap nine salaries, $135,000?

MR. DAVIS: Yes, but you also have to balance it off from what happened

last year. That is what that mostly is, if you balance off what was taken down

from last year.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect, okay.

The only other thing that stands out readily or apparent here is

Transportation and Communications. You did not spend so much as what it was last

year, but you have the same amount budgeted line 03 in 4.1.04.

MR. DAVIS: This is a result of some of the salary reductions that we just

talked about there in employee turnover and delayed recruitment. Because of that

then, they did not travel. That would result in a $31,000 savings lower than

anticipated. We do anticipate it will be at the same level as last year for this

year.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, that is good.

Just one more thing now in this particular

section line 05, Professional

Services, $5,953,500 spent, approximately $3.8 million budgeted for Professional

Services. I am just wondering if you can give me a breakdown on those

professional services that Application Services would be using.

MR. DAVIS: It is $539,100 and it is resulting from costs associated with

acquiring additional contract resources to support applications, the backfill

for employees assigned to solution delivery projects such as the Human Resource

Management System, which is a project underway, and also budget systems. There

were people assigned to work on projects and this was backfilling in some of

those staff.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, because I did notice the number was down quite a bit

actually, $2.1 million. Are you using less in the way of those services?

MR. DAVIS: Pardon me?

MR. MURPHY: Are you using less in the way of those professional services?

MR. DAVIS: For this year?

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, nine repatriated positions again.

MR. MURPHY: So it is just a transfer from one line to the other?

MR. DAVIS: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

That clarifies that particular

section for me right now. Randy, I guess I

will digress and pass it back to you, if you have any questions.

MR. EDMUNDS: George, I think the only question you asked (inaudible) is

the reduction in Professional Services and the apparent increase, almost in all

of the departments, in Purchased Services. That was the line of questioning.

MR. DAVIS: You will see for this year a decrease in Professional Services

and an increase in the Salaries, and that is the repatriated positions. What we

are doing is we have a number of people who actually work in OCIO who are not

government employees. They work for private business. We are repatriating those

positions, bringing them back to become government employees. Instead of hiring

a private company to provide an employee, we are bringing those positions back

to government. That is why you will see the decrease in Professional Services

and the increase in Salaries.

MR. EDMUNDS: Having asked that, you almost look at there is a consistency

across the board on Employee Benefits. This kind of contradicts some of the

salary adjustments.

MR. DAVIS: Employee Benefits will come with the staff as well because

Employee Benefits, quite often, are registration fees, training opportunities,

or maybe members of professional associations, that type of thing.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

Would we be able to get a breakdown of the positions within the department,

salaries attached?

MR. DAVIS: For each individual we do not have it, but we can try to put

that together for you.

MR. EDMUNDS: It kind of just gives you an edge as to how many positions

have been lost or how many new positions have been created.

MR. DAVIS: Like I mentioned, there are a number of repatriated positions,

but we will try and put together an assessment of that for you if you like.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

CHAIR: Do you have anything else under OCIO, George?

MR. MURPHY: That is it for you, is it, Randy?

CHAIR: That is Randy's questions, yes.

MR. MURPHY: I just wanted to carry on, I guess, for a couple of more line

items besides asking just some general questions of the Office of the Chief

Information Officer.

In Salaries, just on first appearance and I should not be making up answers

here. I will let you answer the question; that is your job. Just under Salaries,

4.1.05, Information Technology Operations.

MR. DAVIS: Subhead 4.1.05?

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

Information Technology Operations, line 01, Salaries. There is a difference

in Salaries. Salaries are up against what was budgeted last year and what the

revised was.

MR. DAVIS: The Salaries are up by $137,000 as a result of cost overruns

in temporary salaries required for supporting various projects.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

No breakdown on exactly what those projects were?

MR. DAVIS: I can defer to Ellen or Jean on that to see if

MS MACDONALD: We are running approximately eighty projects right now.

That would be like HRMS type projects. We have a new system that we are running.

There is a long list of projects.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

There is no chance of getting a breakdown of exactly what those projects are,

though, I guess. With eighty projects, I suppose it is

MS MACDONALD: Related to this specific line item?

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MS MACDONALD: It would be hard for us, but we could do that.

MR. MURPHY: Well, the more significant dollar amounts would be okay, just

to give us an idea of exactly where the money is going, that sort of thing.

MS MACDONALD: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: One of the things that sometimes occur in an operation OCIO

has 379 positions, is the last count I have, and you may have someone who works

on or who has input on more than one project.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: So you may be working on

MS MACDONALD: (Inaudible) break it down.

MR. MURPHY: I can understand the difficulty then, okay.

MR. DAVIS: So there are eighty current projects under this section.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, okay.

Well, maybe if you can just give us a brief overview, for example, of one

project, what one project would entail there in that particular line item and

that would probably be sufficient, just to get a flavour of that particular

department.

MR. DAVIS: So, did you want those details, or did you want some comments

on it now?

MR. MURPHY: Well, if she has details on one particular project, just to

give us a sense

MR. DAVIS: If there is an example that maybe you could provide.

MR. MURPHY: Any example that stands out?

MS MACDONALD: So, for example, we could talk about the Child, Youth and

Family Services departmental IT setup.

MR. MURPHY: Sure.

MS MACDONALD: When that department was formed, we took a bunch of

employees who used to be part of Eastern Health and they moved into the

department, and we had to supply them all with new equipment. So, we have a lot

of people, as you can see in this branch, which are supporting the 8,000

employees of government. In order to be able to support that extra work, we had

to bring in temporary people. Really what would happen is some of our full-time

staff who knew government well went off to support the new department setup, and

then we had temporary people to augment that service.

MR. MURPHY: Got you, perfect, just what we were looking for. Thank you

very much for that, by the way.

Mr. Minister, just an explanation as regards to why the Salaries in this

particular department would be up this year (inaudible)

MR. DAVIS: That accounts primarily for seven repatriated positions.

MR. MURPHY: So these would be contract positions again, and of course,

coming from Purchased Services further down?

MR. DAVIS: Professional Services.

MR. MURPHY: Sorry, Professional Services, I meant to say.

That is good for me in that section. I guess we will run down Solution

Delivery, 4.1.06. Salaries were up considerably over what was budgeted last year

and well up over what the actual was spent for this year in line 01.

MR. DAVIS: Well, there was $149,000 savings on Salaries

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. DAVIS: and that was due to delays in resources starting on the CYFS

case management project.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: On the increased Salaries for next year, there is a $674,000

difference, and that is to support capital salary costs for projects such as the

FMS system, the CYFS system as well, and the HRMS system. That is the Financial

Management System; the Child, Youth and Family Services case management system;

and the Human Resource Management System. They are all projects underway.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, sounds good to me.

Nothing else stands out there other than Professional Services are well up,

$20 million forecast for this year against $15.9 million that was spent last

year. Professional Services, line 05.

MR. DAVIS: There is an increase of this year over last year. That is just

over $2 million, about $2,142,000. That relates to projects such as again the

HRMS, the Financial Management System, and the CYFS project. There are some

other systems that are affecting that as well, some smaller projects that are

affecting that as well.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, all right.

Back down to line 06, in Purchased Services there is a big disparity in

monies there: $62,100 spent against $475,000.

MR. DAVIS: There is savings there of $413,000 due to deferral of projects

and projects just not being where they were when it was anticipated. They are

not at the stage where they thought they would have been. One of those is like

the CYFS system.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Are there any other projects here that we should be concerned about as

regards to the money that is gone into that budget? Of course, it looks like the

money has just been rolled over to be carried on. So it is an ongoing thing, is

it? My understanding would be from that.

MR. DAVIS: I am sorry, try again?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, it looks like a rollover of money from one year to the

next that is building up obviously for something to proceed here.

MR. DAVIS: Under Purchased Services you mean?

MR. MURPHY: Right.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, there is $295,000 increase in budget there this year.

That is related to an office lease for the Human Resource Management System,

HRMS, and also the FMS, Financial Management System.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: That is for training as well. I think there is a training

component to that.

OFFICIAL: That is for a physical location (inaudible).

MR. DAVIS: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: You say an office lease. Where is that office or those

offices leased?

MR. DAVIS: Pippy Place.

MR. MURPHY: Up on Pippy Place.

OFFICIAL: Where Child, Youth and Family Services used to be on Pippy

Place.

MR. MURPHY: I am just trying to remember now where they were.

OFFICIAL: They just moved in there recently.

MR. MURPHY: North Atlantic Building?

OFFICIAL: I do not know the name of the building.

OFFICIAL: Seventeen Pippy Place.

MR. MURPHY: Seventeen Pippy Place, okay. I will find it former taxi

driver by trade.

As regards to the leases then, Mr. Minister well this particular case might

be a case in point. I know Child, Youth and Family Services are going to be

moving in down on Elizabeth Avenue if they have not done it already with the

retrofits and that sort of thing.

Are we talking about any savings of money or anything? Are these offices

going to moving any time in the future?

MR. DAVIS: Any savings for leases in relation to

MR. MURPHY: Particularly for Child, Youth and Family Services.

MR. DAVIS: I would not have that information for you. The space that is

leased here is directly for OCIO staff and implementation projects.

MR. MURPHY: So they would be kept separate, over and above, from CYFS?

MR. DAVIS: Yes, any leasing or office space for CYFS would probably go to

that department.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

That does it for me as regards the line items with this particular

department. We will pass it back to Randy in case he has any other questions

before we go on.

CHAIR: Do you have anything else on OCIO before we clue up, Randy?

MR. EDMUNDS: No.

CHAIR: You are finished with it, George?

MR. MURPHY: For the time being. I am just trying to see now if I have

anything else here as to questions.

CHAIR: What we are going to do is call for the subheads and we will be

able to let that particular staff group leave. Just remember we have three hours

for Government Services, so all of these committees are under the one, if you

want to use more time on OCIO.

MR. MURPHY: I am pretty sure they will be up all night for us. I do not

know if there is a hockey game on tonight you might be worried about.

I have no other questions here for OCIO, so OCIO is dismissed for the

evening.

CHAIR: We will call for the subheads for the Office of the Chief

Information Officer.

CLERK: Subhead 4.1.01 to 4.1.07 inclusive.

CHAIR: Subhead 4.1.01 to 4.1.07 inclusive.

Shall the subheads carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 4.1.01 through 4.1.07 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, OCIO, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

MR. DAVIS: Thank you.

Of course, I cannot leave with them, hey?

CHAIR: Absolutely not.

We had a little technical problem there at the beginning, just for the sake

of the information of everybody, because the Office of the Chief Information

Officer was not really under Service NL. It was in another subhead and was not

in with the rest of the Government Services.

MR. DAVIS: It is under Executive Branch, yes. Sorry.

CHAIR: That is why we have a little difficulty getting some questions

from that particular department.

We will continue on, according to sticking with the Service Newfoundland and

Labrador and the Estimates book, to Occupational Health and Safety.

MR. DAVIS: We can, or if it is okay with you, Mr. Chair, we could

probably go to the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Review Division.

CHAIR: Okay. We can go to the Review Division, and I will call for the

subheads for the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Review Division.

CLERK: Subhead 5.1.01.

CHAIR: Okay, 5.1.01.

Randy?

MR. EDMUNDS: Yes, I have a few questions on the workers' compensation

headline. I could go through so many and then I guess I will hand it over to

George to go through a few more.

The first question on the line by line would be, the allocation in last

year's budget was $715,700 and the actual was $444,000. I am just looking for

some clarification on the just under $300,000 difference.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, certainly. There was a reorganization carried out in the

review division, and part of that reorganization resulted in the identification

and the desire to fill and create three new positions. Those three positions

being: a solicitor for the review division, which previously did not exist; a

manager of operations; and also an appeals officer. It was anticipated early

that those positions would have been filled during the 2011-2012 Budget year;

however, they were not.

The solicitor's position was filled in October, 2011, and the manager of

operations and appeals officer positions has just recently been filled. So, that

would allow those three positions, not included in the salaries, to account for

the variance in the salaries.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay. I think everyone else under the estimates, there looks

to be no big fluctuations.

On our Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission, I do have a

number of questions. In January you announced a review of the Workplace Health,

Safety and Compensation Commission, which is mandatory I think every five years.

Are there any updates on this review and when there could be a report coming

forward?

MR. DAVIS: The Statutory Review Committee was established in January of

this year. There are three committee members. One was a nominee by the

Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Labour, one was a nominee by

Newfoundland and Labrador Employers' Council, and the third one was a nominee

representative from the Commission.

They are taking a two-phased approach. The first phase is to conduct a

comprehensive review of current legislation that is in place. They are doing

some work on jurisdictional scans across the country as well to see what is

taking place in some of the other provinces.

Once that is completed, their intention is to file a discussion document

which will then be made available prior to moving into a round of public

consultations. I would anticipate that the public consultations should get

underway in the next few months, two or three months I am thinking, hoping.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

During this evaluation, I am assuming the Workplace Health, Safety and

Compensation Commission will look at what it has achieved over the last five

years and what it is supposed to be doing.

MR. DAVIS: It is a fairly comprehensive overview that is taking place at

this point in time. Then once they complete that phase and complete the

document, then they will also go to public consultations. Once they go to public

consultations, of course, the door would be open for anybody who has an interest

or a desire to present to the committee, will have the opportunity to do that.

MR. EDMUNDS: Yes, okay. Thanks.

I am just going through some of the information that has been coming out.

Last year I know in the forest industry the number of injury rates went from,

percentage-wise, 2.4 per cent to 3.3 per cent. In the meantime, the forestry

industry is taking drastic reduction in forest harvesting. I am wondering why a

higher rate on a reduced amount of operations in the forestry sector?

MR. DAVIS: Accident rates are done on incidence per 100 workers is the

number that is quite often used. For example, the overall rate right now for

2011 has been determined to be 1.8 injuries or incidences per 100 employees.

As for that particular sector, I am going to ask Ms Galway or Mr. Mahoney if

they want to comment on that.

MR. EDMUNDS: Yes, and just in the interest of saving time here, is there

a specific sector in which these injuries did take place?

MS GALWAY: We do track the injury rates over each of our identified

industries. They include: health care; wholesale, retail and trade;

transportation and warehousing services; finance, insurance, and real estate;

and we have agriculture, manufacturing, fish processing, forestry, construction,

fish harvesting, and mining.

You mentioned forestry in particular. In 2009, the lost-time incidence rate

for that industry was 2.8, and in 2010 it went down to 2.4. In 2011 it increased

again, as you pointed out, to 3.3. Part of what you have to consider when you

look at each of these industries is the number of people who are working from

year to year.

There has been a significant change in the working population within the

forestry industry. That may have its own impact on the calculation over time.

The people who remain in the industry now would no longer have the pulp and

paper industry as prominent as it was in the past. So, the mix of the companies

that are in that industry can have an impact.

CHAIR: I am just going to butt in for a second.

The minister has been doing such a great job answering all of the questions

that we are getting to some of the staff. It would be a good idea for the staff

to introduce themselves when responding to a question for Hansard.

MR. EDMUNDS: I am glad you pointed that out, Mr. Chair, because I could

not remember the names.

CHAIR: Randy.

MR. EDMUNDS: In going through the reports again, there were also some

increases in the health and social services sector.

Can you shed some light on where these injuries occurred, and in what manner?

I am sure it is a wide open question, and there could be any number of

possibilities for the injuries that take place in the health and social services

sector.

MR. DAVIS: Which sector is that, sorry?

MR. EDMUNDS: Health care and social services.

MS GALWAY: You are correct. There was an increase in the number of

lost-time incidence rates in the health industry between 2010 and 2011. It

increased from 2.4 to 2.8.

We have available on our Web site information on each of these industry

categories. What you will find on these industry fact sheets is a breakdown of

the types of injuries, the body parts that are most impacted, as well as a

breakdown between lost-time incidence rates there, health care only, and any

fatalities in that industry. That may be useful. If you like, we could provide

that information for you.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay, thanks.

Just a couple of questions on Review Division, I am assuming it is under the

same headline.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, go ahead.

I look at it as the same but different in that the Review Division is

independent from the Commission. While they service the same or similar clients,

their roles are different but the Review Division is an independent organization

that can review the decisions made by the Commission. They are independent from

the Commission from that regard.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

The question is along the number of cases that have come forward and the

number of cases that are under review and being carried forward. With the number

of new cases coming forward, there is still a large increase in the numbers up

for appeal. I use the last 2010-2011 for example, where there were 186 appeals

that were carried forward the past year and in 2010 it was 137, yet the new

numbers of applications have gone down.

Is there a strain on the Review Division to process some of the appeals that

are coming through that shows this significant difference?

MR. DAVIS: There has been, and I think myself that there are a couple of

different reasons for that, Mr. Edmunds. One is I think that cases are more

complex than they have been in the past. There was a considerable amount of

diligence done in hearing cases and reviewing cases as well. As well, last year

we recruited three new commissioners and we also had two who resigned in the

last year.

We still have vacancies in commissioners which we are in the process of

filling. Those two resignations have created that challenge as well in the

caseload. We are working on that, and we are looking forward to filling those

positions with an effort to clear up that backlog that appears to be there right

now.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay. So I can assume that you are doing what you can to

address these issues and to reduce the number of appeals that are carried

forward.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, we are. Our goal is to have these appeals dealt with in a

manner that is as expeditious as possible. We have to have the commissioners to

hear those appeals. With the three new commissioners who came in last year, they

went through an extensive training program prior to actually taking files and

starting to hear reviews. It is only early this year that they are starting to

actually hear cases. There was a fair bit of time and a fair bit of work to get

those commissioners trained, prepared, have the information and knowledge and

abilities to actually start hearing cases.

As I said, we are in the process of recruiting three new commissioners now to

add to that complement, and that will bring us up, if we are successful in

recruiting three, to the maximum amount of commissioners allowed, which is

seven.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay, thanks.

I have a couple of more questions here, but I would like to jump ahead to the

situation at Marystown Shipyard where the workers are looking for compensation,

where the workers have gone to see a specialist, Dr. Noel Kerin, regarding the

claims and workplace effects it had on these workers.

What is the status on the applications coming forward a result of injuries in

Marystown Shipyard?

MR. DAVIS: Maybe by way of an overview on that, if I may, and then if I

do not provide you with anything that you want, then we can pursue that as well.

There have been fifty-nine claims made from Marystown Shipyard workers.

Twenty-two of those have had claims that had been approved.

The approach with the Marystown Shipyard workers is the same as it is for any

other industry or any other employee in any workplace in the Province in that if

you have a claim to file, then you file that claim with the Commission. Each and

every claim has to be assessed on its own merits, so there has to be an

assessment process that we go through. They can be very complex and I can tell

you they can be very difficult matters.

What happened with Marystown and the Marystown Shipyard workers has had a

significant impact on a large number of workers and their families. It is a very

important matter for me, as minister, and I know that these cases are considered

very seriously by the Commission as well.

As a result of the last statutory review that took place there was a

formation of what we call ODAP, which is the Occupational Disease Advisory

Panel. One of the first pieces of business that the Occupational Disease

Advisory Panel was to engage IRSST, as you are probably familiar with, which is

an institute out of Montreal, very well recognized, highly regarded organization

in Montreal, Quebec, that was asked to look at these circumstances of shipyard

workers. They actually looked at over 300 reports of shipyard workers and

compiled a report for the Commission that, to my understanding, is unequalled

anywhere in the world. It was a fairly significant piece of study of reports.

That particular piece of work is now being used by the Commission to assist

them in adjudicating cases from Marystown Shipyard workers. The position of the

Commission and myself has been that if there is a shipyard worker from Marystown

who feels that they have new information, new scientific or medical information,

or that this IRSST report may have a bearing on a previous adjudication or

denial of their claim, then we ask them to contact the Commission and talk to

the Commission about any new information or new considerations that may have

taken place.

As for Dr. Kerin, he has had significant discussions with some of the family

members in Marystown and if Dr. Kerin or anyone else, not only him but if

anybody has any further medical or scientific evidence that could be made

available to the Commission to assist them in adjudication of those claims, I

know I can speak for the Commission that we are quite accepting of any new

information that may be made available to them, medical or scientific

information.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

In the IRSST there was really no specific reference made to the Marystown

Shipyard, but the reason I bring this up is because for some of those workers

who are affected it has been a long time and it has been an uphill struggle.

Just one more question on Marystown: Is there any system in place for monitoring

the health of those impacted while they are waiting for additional information,

like you said, to come forward?

MR. DAVIS: If any person, any resident of the Province, who has their own

family physician or their own health care available to them and many of us have

done that, have tracked our own health through our own family doctors or other

doctors that we may have who are caring for us. They have that available to

them.

I think it is important, if I may, just for a moment, to put in perspective

what the Commission actually is because sometimes there is a misunderstanding

and confusion created. The Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission

is, in the first place, a no-fault insurance program for workers in Newfoundland

and Labrador. It is sometimes confused as a social program or a

government-funded health care program, and it is not that. They are funded

completely by the employers in Newfoundland and Labrador for the benefit of

workers in Newfoundland and Labrador.

It is an insurance program, and very similar to our insurance program that we

would have or a person may have in their workplace, it has limitations. It has

benefits that can be provided to the plan member in the case of a private

insurance program. In order to take to advantage of those benefits, there is a

process that you have to go through.

Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission is much the same as

that. It is a no-fault insurance program. If you feel you have a claim against

the services they provide, then you can file a claim and the claim becomes

adjudicated. The same as you would with a private insurance company.

If you have a car accident today and you call your insurance company and say,

I want to file a claim. Then there is a claim process and an adjudication

process you go through in that regard. The Commission works in a very similar

way. The difference is, of course, the Commission is there for workers in

Newfoundland and Labrador. It is probably one of if not one of, the broadest

coverage for workers in any province.

In this Province now we are at about 97 per cent. About 97 per cent of

workers in Newfoundland and Labrador are covered under the Commission. I think

that is the highest percentage of any province in Canada. So, I think it is

important to back up for us to understand what the Commission is. Each case that

comes to the Commission is adjudicated on its own merits.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay, thanks.

If my colleague would permit me just one more question on the review

division, there is a clause in the regulations that states that the division may

seek legal advice from an independent advisor. What we are starting to see now

is there is a government lawyer showing up to a lot of these hearings. Is this a

new process? Is this the standard operating procedure now?

When you talk about independence, to me and I am hoping you can answer the

question it is somewhat compromising to independence.

MR. DAVIS: I will defer to Ms Galway again, but the Commission has its

own staff counsel who assists them and provides them with legal advice and

direction. I do not know of a case when a government lawyer would have been

involved in the adjudication.

MS GALWAY: With the appeal process, there will be some cases where we

will have our legal counsel present and other cases where we will have review

specialists from our internal review group attend. The purpose of which is to

provide information that is useful to the Commissioner that is hearing the case,

as well as provide some background information. We cannot possibly provide legal

counsel for each case, and it would not be appropriate to do so.

It is only in special circumstances where the case itself is quite

complicated that we would have someone present. I know we have had legal counsel

attend some of the employer claims where there are questions with respect to our

prime program. In certain cases where there is a request for cost recovery by

the employer we have sent our legal council, but generally speaking, we would

not have legal counsel present. It is not a trend to send them more often.

MR. DAVIS: Was your question in regard to the appeals division or claims?

MR. EDMUNDS: Yes.

MR. DAVIS: I am sorry, my mistake. I thought you were asking about when

claims were being adjudicated, but it was actually about appeals.

MR. EDMUNDS: Yes, just to the hearings.

MR. DAVIS: Yes.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

I think I have gone fifteen minutes, Mr. Chair, and I will sit down.

CHAIR: Yes, a little bit over, but that is fine because George went over

a little bit on the previous one.

MR. MURPHY: I will forgive him.

CHAIR: Back to you, George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much.

Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission I think is probably one

division of government, albeit at arm's-length, that probably gets more beaten

than any other department that I can think of with government. I do not know

whether that is rightly or wrongly.

I do not think anybody's character or anything like that should be attacked

whenever it comes to that but, personally speaking, with some of the cases and

everything that I deal with, I do not know. I have not really seen the word

fairness in there sometimes. I know I am only early into my own mandate here but

there is any one of a number of examples that we have all been taken up with, I

think, over the last couple of years.

Do you think the Workplace, Health and Safety Compensation Commission, Ms

Galway, would be given a bad rap? Let me start off by saying that, or asking

that, Minister.

MR. DAVIS: I think I will jump in on that one, if you do not mind.

The first thing I would have to say to that, Mr. Murphy, is there can be

nothing more difficult for a family than a provider of that family becoming

injured and losing their ability to provide for their family. I can understand

how people are very emotional about that, how it is important to them, and so

they should be.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. DAVIS: I can tell you, it is important to us as well. The operations

of the Commission are important to us as well. This is about people, their lives

and their ability to look after themselves and their families. When injuries

occur you know people who have experienced it, and I know people who have

experienced it. It can change their lives forever. I know how it is important to

people and it is a very emotional, it is a very personal issue for people as

well.

What the Commission has to do is a very difficult task. I know when they are

adjudicating claims and I know the 400 employees who work at the Commission

have a really tough task in the different branches within the Commission that

they operate. They do come under a lot of public scrutiny.

One of the things we are doing, as we talked about, is a statutory review. A

statutory review is an opportunity for the Commission to take a step back and

say: How are we doing business? How are things taking place? What is it we can

do to tweak the processes, the policies, and the way the Commission does its

work to do a better job of it?

There does have to be a balance in how you adjudicate claims. There

absolutely has to be fairness, there has to be policies, and there has to be a

process which when followed sometimes can be really difficult. It can be

difficult for the people who are impacted by it and difficult for the people who

have to adjudicate those claims.

The other significant stakeholder in this is the employers, because the

employers are the ones that pay the bills at the Commission. There has to be

balance. We have to give consideration to the employers as well. We cannot drive

the cost of premiums high. We pay very high premiums. Employers pay very high

premiums in this Province for the benefits that are received, amongst the

highest in the country right now.

As I mentioned earlier, there are also some really good things happening for

injured workers as well at the Commission, but it is a steady battle. It is a

hard job that they do. The statutory review we are going through right now is a

good opportunity to have a look at that and to hear from people who have an

interest in the Commission and want to have a say, or make suggestions, or

propose changes and so on.

MR. MURPHY: As regards to the statutory review, you mentioned it was

going to be getting underway officially, I think, in about two months. Some

people have been named in the process, I think probably about two months ago.

MR. DAVIS: It has been underway for a long time. There are two phases.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, but they have not done any actual interviewing as

regards to

MR. DAVIS: Regarding public consultation.

MR. MURPHY: Public consultation is what I am trying to get at, yes.

MR. DAVIS: In the next few months that should take place.

It is a fairly comprehensive review. When you do a statutory review such as

this, it is a significant piece of work to be done. I think it is important

while they are doing it, that they take the time to do it to the best of their

abilities and do a good job of it.

The goal is, when they complete the paper review that is taking place right

now, a discussion document will be prepared and made available to the public to

review. We need to give them some time then to have a look at it before they

carry out the consultations. It is no good to release it on Friday and start the

consultations on Monday.

MR. MURPHY: No. Hopefully you will do both on the Monday.

MR. DAVIS: What is that?

MR. MURPHY: Hopefully we will start both of them on a Monday.

MR. DAVIS: Well, you want some time for people to have a chance to review

it as well.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, exactly.

I just want to come over to something you said about employer compliance. Is

there much of a problem now as regards to WHSCC and employer compliance? As

regards to getting employers to pay their bills, are you finding any

difficulties to have employers owe up to their end of the bargain, so to speak?

Once an employee is injured, he is injured probably in some cases for life,

any reluctance to compliance amongst employers to have to pay their bills?

MR. DAVIS: That is probably more of an administrative question. I will

let Ms Galway or Mr. Mahoney respond.

MS GALWAY: With respect to our process, it does work exactly the same way

as an insurance program that most of us have works. We will provide insurance in

the form of an assessment premium to the employers. That will cover the cost as

calculated by our actuaries that is necessary overall to pay for the injuries of

that year. Once that assessment is paid, we would take from that fund of money

the cost we would need to pay out for those injuries for a lifetime of an

injury.

If you are concerned about the payment by employers, we have a group of

individuals within the Commission who also pay attention to collection to ensure

that our accounts are up to date. We have a very low, bad debt expense that is

associated with that over time. Businesses sometimes do get into difficultly and

they are not able to continue. We have mechanisms in place where we try to

recover as much of the outstanding assessment bills as possible.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, all right. I was wondering about that.

Mr. Minister, just to come back to one line that was a question, I guess,

in the line items. Page 5.15, 5.1.01 Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation

Review, line 06 Purchased Services. The only question I really have is in regard

to this section: $175,000 was the actual revised figure for 2011-2012, against

$120,500 for the 2012-2013 Estimates.

MR. DAVIS: The change there, Mr. Murphy, was in relation to renovations

that were required to accommodate the three new positions that I talked about

earlier, the solicitor, the manager of operations, and the appeals officer.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: There were renovations required in the office in order to

accommodate those three new positions.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

Those offices are where, again?

MR. DAVIS: Those offices are in Mount Pearl, on Mount Carson Avenue in

Mount Pearl.

MR. MURPHY: On Mount Carson Avenue. It is more rental space, is it?

MR. DAVIS: Yes, it is rental space, but the offices they are currently

contained in had to undergo renovations to make allowance for the three new

employees, the three new positions that were created.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, perfect. That is great.

That is all I have as regards to the line items that were there, but I just

wanted to come back to have a look here to see if I had any more questions on

WHSCC.

You had $200,000 budgeted, I guess, for that office. Is that sufficient for

those three, for the review?

MR. DAVIS: I am sorry, which line are you in?

MR. MURPHY: Well, it is just a general question, really. I think there

was a $200,000 amount that was budgeted for the three people who were going to

be undertaking the review. Is that right?

MR. DAVIS: On the Purchased Services? Or are you talking about the

Professional Services?

MR. MURPHY: Professional Services.

MR. DAVIS: The Professional Services were $200,000 and the revised was

$150,000.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: That corresponds to the new commissioners. We had hoped to

have them trained and prepared to start taking new files earlier than they had;

then they actually did start taking files. They were not up to speed, if you

like, and taking files as early as hoped. So that made the difference in the

$50,000 reduction there.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect. Okay.

Just one other question on WHSCC in general, some inspection orders I just

have a quick little note wrote down here: Orders not always complied with and

about one-third of the time no follow-up was carried out to ensure compliance.

That was from the Auditor General's Report.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, and that is actually for the Occupational Health and

Safety Branch of Service NL, so if you want to hold on to that one for a

minutes.

MR. MURPHY: Save it for then.

MR. DAVIS: We will save it.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect.

MR. DAVIS: We will try to remember to make sure to remind you when we get

to that branch that we will

MR. MURPHY: Oh, do not worry; I have a page full of stuff here.

Okay, that is all that I have, sir, under WHSCC.

CHAIR: Okay.

Randy, do you have anything else under that one?

MR. EDMUNDS: Just a couple of a quick questions, I kind of skipped a few.

According to the act, the commissioner has up to sixty days to communicate a

decision. Going back to the three positions that you are trying to fill, I

imagine that is what is creating the backlog and going above and beyond the

sixty days I think in some cases five months. Can I assume that once you get

those commissioner positions filled, that you will be able to climb back up to

the sixty-day deadline?

MR. DAVIS: Well, I would not assume anything, but that is certainly the

goal, is to provide a faster service, faster turnaround on reviews. That is

certainly the goal.

We have to ensure that the review division, that commissioners carry out

their work in an appropriate and a thorough, and a comprehensive manner. In

order to do that, we need to make sure we have the right people tasked with the

roles in the first place, and that they have the skills and the tools and the

training and ability to do that. So, we want to make sure that is done properly

first.

The goal is to turn cases around faster, but having said that, that does not

mean I want I do not want to see anything being rushed, but we want to make

they are able to turn these around in a much faster manner than what we have

here now. The commissioners that are there now, they are doing good work. It is

just that we need more of them to keep up with the caseloads.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay, thanks.

Just one quick question; I have never had to go through a hearing process,

and I hope I never have to, but sometimes as critic you get information from

individuals who have. Some of the concerns that have been brought at least to my

attention is they were under the impression that the hearings are supposed to be

informal. What they are starting to see is a trend that is becoming more like a

courtroom process and a little more serious. So, I am not sure what the process

is. Is the division now taking a more formal approach to these hearings, would

be my question?

MR. DAVIS: Well, I am glad you have asked it, because I meant to mention

this earlier.

One of the new positions is an appeals officer, which has just recently been

filled. Part of the role of the appeals officer would be to work with clients

who are filing an appeal, to help review their files. The appeals officer may

provide suggestions to the person filing an appeal that they may want to include

more information or obtain other information to assist them in their appeal.

The Commission itself and the commissioners, how they conduct themselves is a

quasi-judicial process. I really cannot speak to how one commissioner may carry

out a hearing versus another commissioner.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: It is a quasi-judicial process that is subject to appeal. It

is the highest level from the Commission as far as appeal to the Commission. We

expect them to do a good job, to be thorough, to be fair and consider all the

information. The same as when the Commission adjudicates a case in the first

instance, they have to base their decisions based on the laws that are in place

and the rules that are in place in regard to the Commission.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay, thanks.

Mr. Chair, I think that is all I have on the Workplace Health, Safety and

Compensation Review.

CHAIR: Okay, that is it? George?

MR. MURPHY: That is it, sir, for me.

CHAIR: Okay, we will call for the subhead on Workplace Health, Safety and

Compensation Review.

CLERK: Subhead 5.1.01 and 6.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 5.1.01 and 6.1.01 inclusive carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subhead 5.1.01 and 6.1.01 carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the total carried?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, total carried.

CHAIR: Okay, thank you, Minister, for that portion.

MR. DAVIS: Thank you.

We have three that will leave now at this point in time. If you want to go

next to the

CHAIR: Some of the more lucky ones. All smiles they are.

MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chair, we can go through Service NL if you would like or

we can jump over to the Government Purchasing Agency which would be the next

whichever way.

CHAIR: That is the next one on there. If it is okay with George and

Randy, we can finish with Government Purchasing. We are very close to the 6.1.01

we just called that one, didn't we?

MR. MURPHY: I was just going to ask you a question about that actually.

CHAIR: Yes, we can go back. Actually when we called in the subhead, we

called in 6.1.01.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

CHAIR: We can go back to it and that would be Government Purchasing

Agency. Did you want to start off on that one, Randy?

MR. EDMUNDS: I have had the floor long; I think I will throw it over to

CHAIR: It is okay with George. George, you can start off that one for us.

MR. MURPHY: Sure.

Subhead 6.1.01, Government Purchasing Agency, the first line in Salaries is

$173,300 less than what was budgeted. We will start off there.

MR. DAVIS: The $173,000 variance is a result of the delays in filling

positions. It is vacancies in positions and a delay in recruiting positions.

MR. MURPHY: I notice that Salaries as well is a little bit lower than

what was budgeted in 2011-2012.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, there is a $93,500 variance and that is a result of

forecasted adjustments for the removal of funding for implementation of

procurement reform positions. That is a forecasted change, an adjustment that is

coming for the future for this year.

MR. MURPHY: Cutbacks?

MR. DAVIS: No, but I meant to mention earlier, because some of those

adjustments earlier were small ones that were made. I will try to do a better

job of pointing those out to you as we go through here.

MR. MURPHY: We would appreciate that. Especially if we do not ask, it

would be nice to hear about it.

There is really only one more that stands out here. As regards to Purchased

Services, $90,000 was the actual against $183,900, and budgeted for $116,000

this year.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, sir.

The revised for last year was a $93,000 variance and that is a lower than

anticipated advertising costs. Advertising costs are entirely dependent on the

overall government's advertising and that is borne by Government Purchasing

Agency for all departments for all government advertising.

The $116,000 variance for this year, which is a decrease of $67,900, just

under $68,000, is part of the 3 per cent Budget reduction. The other part,

$57,900 is additional reallocation of funding of

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. DAVIS: Property, Furnishings and Equipment is $10,000.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, I think we are good there.

The only question I have as regard to this particular section, Government

Purchasing, was in general on policy when it comes around government purchasing.

Are you dealing with untendered items as well?

MR. DAVIS: You are referring to the exception report that you see?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, that we see every month. There are times when I have to

question some of the things that are purchased because there is, say, for

example, nothing else in the area, that sort of thing. One of the items that

stood out I am just trying to recall now. I should have brought the book down

with me. I think it was in June month, or may have been July, having to do with

a golf tournament in Terra Nova Park. I wish I had more detail on it.

I keep thinking to myself if it was the only golf course in the area and

something occurs to me that there is one right across the bay from Terra Nova

Park, but it escapes me now. You mentioned advertising as well, I would like to

get a little bit of an explanation as to how do they arrive at the conclusion,

for example, radio advertising, television advertising, how they come to the

conclusion that there would be nobody else competing in that particular field in

any particular area?

MR. DAVIS: Again, it would depend on which one you are looking at. I

think it is important to point out that the exception report that is tabled in

the House of Assembly, when the House is in session, sometimes it is

misunderstood as procurement that occurs contrary to the act. That is not the

case. The act lays out the rules and procedures that must be followed when

purchasing goods and services. Quite often, that is done by tender, depending on

the nature of what is being purchased. If it is a good or a service, then there

are boundaries where you must follow tender processes.

There are exceptions to when tenders have to be called and tenders are

required. When that exception occurs, when tenders are not being called for one

of the outlined reasons which are outlined in the act, then that shows up in the

exception report.

Sometimes there is a misconception there I am not saying you have it, but

sometimes there is a misconception or belief that what is in the exception

report are goods and services that have been obtained by government or a

government funded body, when they did not follow what was required in the act.

That is not the case.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

MR. DAVIS: As for the one you are saying for Terra Nova, I am not

familiar with it all. Do you know off-hand, Sonya, what it might be?

We can look that up and we can get that information to you. We can find out

what that is for you and get that information to you.

MR. MURPHY: I know it is in the book and I should have brought the book

down with me. I said no, that is one of the things I will leave behind, but I

will take it next year.

There is nothing else I can think of right now in government purchasing. On

my end of things, I am just taking a quick look over the notes here. I think

that is about the only thing that we might have had on it.

CHAIR: Randy.

MR. EDMUNDS: The only question I had was a long the same lines as George.

I did not go through the whole list of purchases outside of the tendering

process because there were too many, but I did go through a major portion of it

and I could only highlight things that were sort of relevant to my area in terms

of location, say, Goose Bay and Lab City.

The one thing that jumped out at me is the number of occasions where

snowmobiles were bought for whatever government department. The reason for the

purchase outside of the tendering process is that no one else was available with

the sale of these snowmobiles.

In Goose Bay alone there are four dealerships. There are two on the South

Coast. There are three in Lab City. So that was one of the questions: How, on

top of the spending outside of the tendering process it is pretty much

insignificant but it jumped out at me enough that I said that I would bring it

up under the Purchasing Agency.

I think it is more of an information bit for you as opposed to a question

from me, because I think you have already answered the question.

MR. DAVIS: In a process like that they are followed fairly well by staff

in the Government Purchasing Agency. There are actually forty-six positions at

the Government Purchasing Agency who follow the trail of a lot of the

procurement, the purchase of goods and services.

Whatever is contained in that exception report has been reviewed by staff of

the Government Purchasing Agency. We would be able to provide you with

information as to why that occurred or what was the explanation for it, for

anything that is contained within the exception report. If there is any time

that there is something that comes up like that, you can feel free to contact

us. We will be sure to look it up for you and give you the information.

You will see there quite often I cannot speak for the one that you just

mentioned, by the way, not offhand. I do not know Sonya, do you know that one

offhand?

MS PAYNE: (Inaudible) there could be various reasons why, as well. It

depends; maybe they were not available at the particular time that they were

required. It could have been that they did not meet the particular

specifications.

MR. EDMUNDS: Yes, being from Labrador, you have to be careful which

snowmobile you are buying. You could get caught up in the snowmobile wars.

MR. DAVIS: There are sometimes - you will see there, for example, a

purchase of school textbooks and there is only one producer of that textbook. So

you would see exceptions in the exception report in cases like that, when there

are sole sourced emergency purchases what are the more common ones?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. EDMUNDS: Yes, I have noticed that there are emergency situations.

There have been expenditures on some of the vessels. You do not have time to go

through a tendering process.

MR. DAVIS: Right.

MR. EDMUNDS: Or heavy equipment that needs to be fixed right there and

then. Other than that, it is just a few that jumped out at me that I just

mentioned.

MR. DAVIS: Absolutely, and that is a really good example on ferries. When

a ferry needs a repair, it needs a repair and you need to do it as quickly as

you can to get the ferry back in operation.

MR. EDMUNDS: Or a replacement.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, or a replacement.

MR. EDMUNDS: Mr. Chair, that is all I have.

CHAIR: Great.

What we have to remember is that we did call for subheads 5.1.01 and 6.1.01,

which did include Government Purchasing.

Thank you, Minister, for another portion.

MR. DAVIS: Thank you.

There is one more departing.

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. EDMUNDS: It is getting smaller over there.

CHAIR: Now we will call the subhead for Service Newfoundland and

Labrador, Executive and Support Services.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

Randy, do you want to start it off?

MR. EDMUNDS: I am assuming this is Executive and Support Services.

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. EDMUNDS: I did not bother picking at the numbers that were just minor

differences, but there were some that did stand out and are worth mentioning.

Line 06 of 1.1.01, in 2011-2012 it was budgeted for $18,800 and was revised to

$1,500. It is a noticeable difference and one to look at. Why the decrease in

Purchased Services?

MR. DAVIS: On that line item there is a tendency that could change

radically depending on the activities taking place in the department at the

time. The $17,300 variance is a reduction in expenditures for advertising and

primarily advertising for the department at that time. We realize that,

depending on the activities of the department, we anticipate we could most

likely be more in line with what is budgeted there for this year.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

Line 07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment seems to be almost consistent

throughout the different sub-departments under Executive and Support Services.

In 2011-2012 the budget was for $500 and the revised was actually $3,900. I am

assuming you are not anticipating a bigger budget.

MR. DAVIS: No, we are not. There was some new furniture and equipment

purchased for the office in the last year. There were new Blackberrys that were

obtained as well. There was a new shredder bought as well. There were some items

that were bought it is a very small line item; it does not take much of a

purchase to knock that out. We do not anticipate that there will be any

significant requirements this year.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

Just moving down to

section 1.2.01, under Executive Support, line 05, there

is a major increase in revision. In 2011-2012 it was budgeted $35,000 and was

revised to $5,000. Now 2013, you are projecting $135,000. It is a $100,000 jump

from your budgeted amount for last year.

MR. DAVIS: The department, as you know, we have had a name change and we

are changing focus. We are moving towards a new brand of Service NL. That

$100,000 in Professional Services is to develop the plan and the strategies on

how we move from where we were with Government Services to Service NL.

Instead of being in a government-focused service, we are moving to a client,

resident or citizen-based service is where we want to go. We want to focus our

services on the citizen, not on the government.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

Below that, there are differences but nothing major.

Section 1.2.03,

Regulatory Reform, there is a big difference in Salaries there, from $306,100 to

$262,200 in line 01.

MR. DAVIS: The variance reflects less planned savings due to filling of

positions, in addition to a transfer in of a new position as well. There is a

new Clerk Typist III under Regulatory Reform.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: I am sorry, was I on the right one? I think I gave you the

wrong information there.

MR. EDMUNDS: The $306,100 to $262,200.

MR. DAVIS: I am sorry; yes, I am looking at the wrong notes.

MR. EDMUNDS: Yes.

MR. DAVIS: The $43,900

MR. EDMUNDS: A good salary for a clerk typist.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, really.

That is part of the one just above there on Strategic Human Resources. Under

Regulatory Reform, the revised variance of $43,900 reflects savings from vacant

positions and delayed recruitment.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: When you will see a reduction in Salaries, that most often is

the reason for that.

MR. EDMUNDS: Consumer and Commercial Affairs before I hand it over to

George 03, 2011-2012 was $65,400 budgeted, the revised was $30,500, and now it

is back up again. This is on Transportation and Communications.

MR. DAVIS: There was a larger use this past year in teleconferencing

services, therefore it required less travel. Also, the result of some vacancies

in positions also had less of an impact, or reduced the need for transportation

and communications. That is also one of these line items that have a tendency to

fluctuate from year to year, depending on the activities that are occurring in

the department at the time.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

I will let George carry on if he wishes.

CHAIR: Yes, sure.

MR. DAVIS: Did you say, George? I think he said for Mr. Murphy to carry

on.

CHAIR: I am sorry Randy, did you say you were going to carry on or do you

want to pass it on?

MR. EDMUNDS: No, I will let George

CHAIR: Okay. All right, fine.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect. Thank you, sir.

Section 2.1.03 Commercial Registrations line 01, we have $107,900 less than

the budgeted. I was wondering if we can get some clarification here. The revised

number that is, and then at the same time, while you are talking about the

Salaries, talk about the 2012-2013 estimate because that number is higher than

the actual was for last year.

MR. DAVIS: The increase in Salaries for this year, $35,400, reflects a

reallocation of salary budget within the department. The variance on last year's

is $107,900, and that reflects savings from vacant positions and delayed

recruitment. There was some offset there by some overtime costs as well, but

essentially the $107,900 reflects savings from vacant positions.

MR. MURPHY: Those positions are not going to be filled, are they? I would

be wondering that, of course, knowing government's 3 per cent austerity program

that they are into.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, there is intention to fill those positions.

MR. MURPHY: There is intention to fill those positions?

MR. DAVIS: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. That is the reason why the 2012-2013 number is up.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, that is right. It is back to where more in line with

what it is this year. Sometimes when you have vacancies created or employees

leave a department or move to another department, then there is a process that

takes place and sometimes there is a delay in refilling those positions.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. These are obviously what government would deem a

necessity then. How many positions were they, again?

MR. DAVIS: Yes, we deem it necessary. How many positions?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. DAVIS: It is not necessarily one or two positions, it could be

multiple positions.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. DAVIS: The entire department has 561 positions, so there is fairly

regular movement. Everyday there is somebody coming or going. There is a fair

movement of staff throughout the department. When you see those positions change

or move, there could be a number of those positions that were vacant for short

periods of time, as an example.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

That same section, 2.1.03 Commercial Registrations, further down in line 06

there is about a $23,000 variance between what was budgeted last year, what the

actual was for this year, but the same amount is budgeted for this year, as well

as in 2011-2012.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, we pay a fee to Moneris, which is for debit and credit

card transactions.

MR. MURPHY: What was the name of the company again?

MR. DAVIS: Moneris.

MR. MURPHY: Moneris?

MR. DAVIS: M-O-N-E-R-I-S.

When there is an increase in the usage, there is an increase in the fee. What

we had here was $22,300; it reflects the increase in the cost for Moneris fees.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Does Moneris belong to any particular bank or anything, or is it a separate

company, separate entity all together?

MR. DAVIS: They are an independent company separate from banks. Financial

institutions would subscribe to their service.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: Most do, and they provide the service then to government. So,

government uses Moneris for on-line transactions and banking transactions.

MR. MURPHY: They are not the only company out there, though, are they?

MR. DAVIS: I do not think. I think there are some others, but I think

they are one of the main companies that are used. They are obtained through a

tender process.

MR. MURPHY: They are obtained through a tender process, that is what I

was wondering. Okay.

Just below that in line 07 Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $34,900

budgeted, $10,500 was the actual spent, and budgeted again for $31,400. I would

take it that might be well, I guess I will let you explain.

MR. DAVIS: Well, the variance of the $24,400 on the revised budget for

last year reflects less of a requirement for furniture and equipment for that

particular year. Again, that is one of these expenditures that have a tendency

to vary from year to year.

MR. MURPHY: Right, but it remains fairly steady

MR. DAVIS: This year's budget is based on what is anticipated.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect. Okay.

I think that is all I have on Consumer and Commercial Affairs when it comes

to line items. I think I might have a couple of questions here as regards to

government policies, for example.

As regards to the CADO system; I know there were some problems as regards to

the CADO system for a little while. I think a story on the radio a number of

weeks ago referred to the Internet Explorer type system that they were using. Is

there any update on that, or has the government made changes?

MR. DAVIS: I think the circumstances that you are referring to there, is

a consumer attempted to obtain or to use a Mac product to access CADO, and then

the CADO system would not interact with the Mac system. We probably should have

had this discussion a little bit earlier when OCIO was here.

One of the challenges in government and you got a flavour and grasp, or

somewhat of an understanding earlier when OCIO was here, on the magnitude of

work that goes on within OCIO. OCIO, their clients are government departments

and government agencies. It is constantly a challenge to keep up with

technology. There are 8,000 desktop and laptop computers in government. It is a

significant number to maintain and keep operating on systems.

If I am referring to the right reference that you are referring to, part of

the issue was about older systems that government is using, and that is true.

Government does use some older systems that work within government, that

operate, interact with each other, and through those 8,000 laptops and desktops

they will work and operate with each other. It is a continuous task to try and

keep up with the technology that evolves. It evolves so fast and so quickly, you

are installing one system and one program when something new comes along. It is

a constant challenge. That is essentially what happened there.

The CADO system will interact with most systems. I do not know, since I have

been in this position I have not heard of another circumstance or another

complaint where CADO did not operate. I am only aware of that particular one.

MR. MURPHY: No, that was the first time I have ever heard of one, but I

know the way operating systems change these days you cannot keep up with them

anyway. You can go out and buy a computer tomorrow and the day after that it is

out of date.

MR. DAVIS: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Anyway, that is pretty much everything I had as regards to

that particular

section and those line items.

I would like to thank you for that.

CHAIR: Thank you, George.

Randy.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

Are we moving on to Motor Vehicle Registration,

section 3?

CHAIR: Sure. You can start out and go right on through there now.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

I have a few questions there on the lines, and I will have at least one

question on Motor Vehicle Registration itself.

Section 3.1.01, line 03 shows a fair discrepancy in the budget from $669,700

to 689,700.

MR. DAVIS: I am sorry, Mr. Edmunds, which line is that?

MR. EDMUNDS: It would be line 03, Transportation and Communications.

MR. DAVIS: Okay.

MR. EDMUNDS: Am I under the right category here, under Administration? It

would be under Motor Vehicle Registration.

CHAIR: You said 3.1.01, Randy, number 03?

MR. DAVIS: Line 03, Transportation and Communications.

CHAIR: Transportation and Communications?

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay. I am focusing on Administration here, sorry.

Well, I will start off with my question because it is relevant to rural areas

and it is relevant to my district. The way the system is set up now is that you

can go on-line and do registrations and it is not a problem. There are also

cases where the government has made exceptions to rural areas. I will use my

district as an example, where you can register on-line for seven months, which

is about the time that you would use your vehicle.

There is no problem to go on-line to register for twelve months. The problem

is you cannot go on-line to register for seven months. I am sure exceptions were

made for rural areas in terms of the seven month registration, but I would have

thought that on-line registration would be applicable to rural areas as well.

The reason for creating the shorter registration would be the same reasoning

used for on-line registration, to target rural areas.

I am wondering why you cannot go on-line to register your vehicle for seven

months; you have to go through the normal process?

MR. DAVIS: I guess the simplest answer for that is the system does not

have the capacity to do that. The system is designed for twelve-month

registrations.

The Motor Registration system that is in operation is one of the older

systems that have been in existence in government. It has been around for

probably about thirty years now. It works quite well but it really restricts and

limitations on when you want to to making changes to the program and making

changes to how it operates, but it does what it was meant to do. It does it very

well, but it does have limitations on how we can make changes to that. That is

one of the problems, just as you are talking about.

MR. EDMUNDS: Is there any plan to upgrade that system so it can

accommodate rural areas?

MR. DAVIS: It is something that has been talked about and considered. We

know that some time in the future we are going to have to have a good, hard look

at it.

It is a system that carries out approximately 1.5 million transactions a

year. It is probably one of the more widely used systems in government. It has

served government well. It has served the people of Newfoundland and Labrador

well but, again, it has its limitations. We know the time is going to come where

an updated or a new system is going to have to be put in place.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: It would be a major project. It would be a significant project

for government.

MR. EDMUNDS: To change the system?

MR. DAVIS: To update. To bring in a new Motor Registration computer

system, you would be talking tens and tens of millions of dollars.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

All right, I will turn it over to George now.

CHAIR: Okay, that is fine.

George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Subhead 3.1.01 to knock off a couple of more line items here line 06

Purchased Services, $2.6 million budgeted for 2011-2012, down to $568,900

actually spent. That budget is up to $2,560,900 now for 2012-2013.

MR. DAVIS: Under Purchased Services?

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. DAVIS: In Purchased Services, $2,146,000 of that is in reference to

renovations to the MRD building. Part of what we are doing at Motor Registration

is the Government Services that currently exist on Mews Place is moving over to

the Motor Registration building in Mount Pearl.

The allotment there of $2,146,000 is part of that project, to move Government

Services over to MRD. The project has not occurred as quickly as we had hoped it

to occur. That is why the funds were not expended last year and is included back

in the budget again for this year.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. They were just rolled over to this year forward.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect.

Supplies, line 04, $217,600 was budgeted for 2011-2012, $342,000 actually

spent.

MR. DAVIS: That $125,000 variance is made up primarily of increase in

costs for fuel, some uniform expenses. There was also some other office expenses

during 2011-2012.

Again, this is one of these line items that can have a tendency to have a

variance from year to year but it is anticipated to be in the $248,600 range

this year is what is budgeted.

MR. MURPHY: When you say fuel costs, you are talking about fuel costs for

which particular branch, obviously not for RNC vehicles, for example? Are you

talking about highway safety vehicles?

MR. DAVIS: It would be highway safety vehicles.

MR. MURPHY: Highway enforcement.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, and the driving examiner vehicles, highway enforcement

vehicles.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

The costs are gone up that much?

MR. DAVIS: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Do they have any hybrid vehicles in that particular

department, do you know?

MR. DAVIS: Then again, fuel is only part of that. There were office

expenses, as well as uniforms, because most of these frontline employees are

uniformed employees. So there was an extra cost there in uniforms.

MR. MURPHY: Are we going to be losing just to come back up to line 01

here in 3.1.01 Administration, in Salaries, I do not know if the highway safety

officers, the enforcement officers are actually in with that section.

MR. DAVIS: If the highway enforcement officers are included in

MR. MURPHY: If their salaries are actually included in these numbers?

Would I be looking at the right

section for their salaries?

MR. DAVIS: Yes, they are.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I was just wondering as regards to the difference then in last year's

Salaries versus the revised number for 2011-2012. I noticed there is a

significant climb there, but at the same time Salaries for 2012-2013.

MR. DAVIS: The variance there is just shy of $138,000. It is the result

of the creation of temporary positions for a Program Policy Development

Specialist, and that was about $57,000 of it. There was a payout for some

reclassifications, and that made up about $23,000 of that. There was some payout

to severance and paid leave to retiring employees, and that made up about

$77,000. There was also some additional cost for some new contract. There is

also a doctor in contract to Motor Registration who reviews any medical related

applications. There was a new contract but in place there as well.

MR. MURPHY: Right.

I just wonder if I might now might be a good time to do it as regards to

asking questions about highway enforcement officers and the workload that they

are tending with right now in the safety, for example, of vehicles out there

obviously that they are dealing with on a day-to-day basis. I know they carry

out regular inspections of buses, tractor trailers, and that sort of thing.

I was just wondering: Is their workload going to be increasing in the future,

for example, as regards to the number of cars I am seeing out there? I do not

know if it is just me. Maybe everybody else here may have noticed it. There seem

to be an awful lot of vehicles pulled in on the side of the road with tie rod

ends gone. I do not know if that is just me or not, but it seems like there are

an awful lot of cars breaking down.

Do you find any of the highway enforcement officers out there are dealing

with more vehicles being pulled in lately?

MR. DAVIS: They have a variety of roles in their capacity. If you are

asking me if I know of an increase in any significant issue they are facing on

the highway, I do not know offhand myself. I could ask our assistant deputy

minister if she may have any knowledge in that regard.

MS KELLAND: Highway enforcement officers are primarily responsible for

commercial vehicles. They would not be normally involved with anything to do

with private-passenger vehicles. I am not sure if that is what you are referring

to.

MR. MURPHY: That is probably more of an issue that is Constabulary

related when it comes to private vehicles.

I am just wondering: Are you getting any feedback from your highway

enforcement officials as regards to what they are seeing out there on the roads,

not only on a commercial basis in this case because they are also seeing the

private vehicles out there? Are they giving you any recommendations to where

they would be going with, I will call it, problem vehicles out there? Are they

calling for, for example, the possible need for more emergency inspections,

side-of-the-road inspections, for example, to happen from time to time?

MS KELLAND: We do a regular type of blitzes on certain types of vehicles.

At any given time, we might do a brake-check day. We might do special blitzes in

addition to our regular inspection process. I am not aware of any particular

increase in problems. Our stats are not showing any particular increase in

problems in the commercial fleet.

We do keep a fairly close eye on what we call out-of-service rates, which is

vehicles being taken out of service for particular reasons. I am not aware of

any particular increase we are seeing in that direction. We also do audits of

companies with larger fleets of vehicles to make sure their maintenance programs

are kept up-to-date and things like that.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect.

That is about all I had for that section, 3.1.01. I guess I will go ahead and

move on a bit. How is the time going, all right?

CHAIR: You can probably give Randy a bit of time now, if you like.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, that is what I was wondering about. Randy, do you want

to go ahead?

CHAIR: He might even ask some questions that you were going to ask that

would save some more.

MR. EDMUNDS: Before I go there, there is one question I would like to go

back to I think it was around the Moneris question. I have had dealings with

Moneris as part of my company, but that would not eat up the whole $665,000. It

is just the difference that we are looking at here?

MR. DAVIS: (Inaudible).

MR. EDMUNDS: It is under Consumer and Commercial Affairs, Purchased

Services, line 06.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, the variance there is what I am referring to, Moneris,

the $22,300 variance reflects increased cost of Moneris, but it is not the

entire Purchased Services.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay, the only question I have on 3.1.01, Administration, is

again in Purchased Services. Last year's budget was for $2.7 million

approximately, and the actual was just over $500,000, almost 600,000, line 06,

and it has again gone up to $2,560,900 a very noticeable jump.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, $2.146 million of that is in reference to the Motor

Registration Division Building renovations as a reference. We are moving a

government service branch from Mews Place to Motor Registration Building in

Mount Pearl, and $2.146 million of that is carried forward to 2012-2013.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: That is why it has returned again this year.

MR. EDMUNDS: I think that was the only question to add on Administration.

On driver examinations, weigh scale operations, the Salaries are pretty much

consistent, and there is a disappearance of benefits there. Supplies, line 04

under 3.1.02, the budget was $36,500, and you spent $5,500, so you budgeted for

$5,500 this year. There is almost a $30,000 difference there.

MR. DAVIS: That is on Supplies?

MR. EDMUNDS: That would be Supplies, line 04.

MR. DAVIS: Okay, there is a $31,000 variance, as you pointed out, and

that reflects a reallocation of funds to Motor Registration Administration where

the fuel costs were being charged.

MR. EDMUNDS: I never got that?

MR. DAVIS: You never got that?

MR. EDMUNDS: No.

MR. DAVIS: There is $31,000 and there was a reallocation of funds from

that line item to MRD administration where fuel costs are being charged. If you

go to Administration just a second now, I will find it for you. Under

Supplies, that is a reallocation to line 04 under Administration.

MR. EDMUNDS: Motor Vehicle Registration, carrying on, Licence and

Registration Processing,

section 3.1.03, Employee Benefits, line 02 you

budgeted $9,000 last year and your actual was $94,500, a big difference.

MR. DAVIS: There is. That one is $85,000 related to injury on duty

billings to the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission. That can

fluctuate, again, from year to year.

MR. EDMUNDS: There is one there that is not overly large but it does

actually, there are a couple there. One is Purchased Services, line 06, where

you had a $300,000 difference there from what you budgeted last year to what you

actually spent to the budget and the increase again this year of $1,873,800.

That would be line 06.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, that is a $275,000 variance. In this case, it is a result

of lower than anticipated Moneris fees.

MR. EDMUNDS: The other

section there, again, is on Property, Furnishings

and Equipment. The prediction for last year was $7,000 and the actual

expenditure was $39,500.

Is it the same thing?

MR. DAVIS: That is a $32,500 variance that was the purchase of a new

electronic client management numbering system. That is a new system for when

people go to Motor Registration in Corner Brook. That is for the Corner Brook

office, which was recently moved and renovated. That is for the numbering system

so when you go in you get your ticket of where you are in the line.

MR. EDMUNDS: It cost $32,000?

MR. DAVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. EDMUNDS: Pick a number.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, there is a bit more to it because it depends on which

lineup you are going to go to and what service you are going to require. It is

really based on service. The system then would move you to the wicket, depending

on what service you need. When one person walks in to line up, the person behind

them may be there for a different service so it may move you to a different

line.

The other thing it does too, it also gives us an opportunity to have a look

at queue lines, demand for service. The system allows us to see where the demand

for service is, where people are waiting longer for one service versus another

service, so we can reallocate human resources to make it more efficient for

customers.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

Just one question before I will turn it back over to George. There is

reference made there to Moneris a couple of times. Through the department, what

is the total amount paid out to Moneris in fees?

MR. DAVIS: Just give me a second now. Mr. Edmunds, we can get that for

you. We do not have the total amount here with us now, but we can definitely get

that. In the next couple of days we should be able to that for you.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay, I think that is all I have on Licence and

Registration. I will turn it over to George.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. DAVIS: If I just can on Moneris Moneris really and quite often is

reflective on users using registration on-line. We have seen continuous growth

in numbers. We just recently hit a higher number than we had before for on-line

registration. Of course it is most cost effective for the customers, for

citizens. It is much more convenient for them. We are seeing a higher number,

but we never reached where we thought we were going to be last year. That is

where that variance came from, that $275,000 variance.

MR. EDMUNDS: Okay.

CHAIR: Okay, George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We will move on down to National Safety Code, 3.1.04. Starting things off,

line 01, Salaries, gone from $1,418,200 last year and the actual that was spent

in that department $1,429,400.

MR. DAVIS: It is an $11,000 difference there. That was primarily the

result of a payout in severance to four employees.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. Then I noticed in that department, as regards to that

line, Salaries dropped down to $1,345,000.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, that is a $73,000 variance. Basically, Mr. Murphy, that

is just reflective of salary requirements for this coming year. Salary funds

have been reallocated to other divisions to address salary pressures in other

divisions. There is a small reallocation of salaries there.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, you mention the $11,000 was paid out to severance for a

couple of employees who are gone. Do we have any job losses here as regards to

National Safety Code, highway inspections, that sort of thing?

MR. DAVIS: There was some retirements, but they are positions that

MR. MURPHY: So basically through attrition, but nobody lost

MR. DAVIS: No positions lost, no.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. That was a concern.

Line 05, Professional Services, $40,000 unspent in 2011-2012, and in

2012-2013 it is the same amount of money.

MR. DAVIS: That is correct. The revised zero there is a $40,000 variance,

lower than anticipated costs for contractual services. It is much lower; there

are none at all actually. This year, though, there is anticipation that there

could very well be those contractual services.

I do not know if you wanted to comment on what those types of services may

be. Maybe Ms Kelland can give you that information.

MR. MURPHY: Sure.

MS KELLAND: From time to time we might use consultants to help us on

policy issues. For example, the year before last we looked at how our weigh

scale operations were distributed and they did some extra-curricular work for us

on those types of things. That need varies from time to time. This past year we

did not have a need for any of those types of services, but we are thinking we

may do some additional work on various policy issues coming up in this year.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, that is great.

Seeing you mentioned weigh scales, in one of the notes that I had here

3.1.02, if we can backtrack a little bit, Driver Examinations and Weigh Scale

Operations. I wanted to come over to the Salaries component again, 2011-2012,

the variance there, if you could explain that, as well as the 2012-2013 Estimate

for a little over $2.4 million.

MR. DAVIS: The revised variance there of $148,000 is a result of the

delays in filling a driver examiner and weigh scale positions. That is offset by

a payment of severance to retiring employees. There were retiring employees

which there was, of course, severance paid out. The $148,000 is a result of

delays in filing it and it is offset by that $70,000. For this year the variance

of $65,000 reflects anticipated salary requirements for this coming year.

MR. MURPHY: Is there going to be any extra hiring by the looks of that,

or is that just going to be a job increase? We have not seen any job losses here

either though, did we?

MR. DAVIS: No, we have not. We have a new scale house just opening in

Labrador West, so there are new positions to operate those scales.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so that would be in Lab West.

I am just wondering, too, at the same time while we are on this particular

section as regards to the policies with weigh scales. I know from time to time,

passing by on the highway, particularly late at night, the weigh scales are not

in operation, obviously, late at night; however, there is a massive amount of

tractor trailer traffic that uses that highway, particularly after government

working hours.

I am just wondering if government is taking into consideration that

particular note. I am just wondering if government might be making a change as

regards to weigh scale operations considering extra shifts, that sort of thing,

to see if we cannot catch any overloaded tractor trailers, for example, that

might be on the highways. They do an immense amount of damage whenever you are

talking about being overweight.

MR. DAVIS: Yes, a good question.

The scale houses, while you do drive by, are the fixed scale locations in

which they work on a variety of schedules, but we also have portable scales that

are used throughout the Province from time to time. In cases like that, there

are times when the portable scales would be utilized.

Again, they work on different shifts, different schedules, and conduct

different patrols at different times, and the scales operate under schedules as

well.

MR. MURPHY: Are they doing this emergency scale use, we will call it,

after-hour scale use, or portable scale-use?

MR. DAVIS: Portable scales.

MR. MURPHY: Are they used, for example, 12:00 or 1:00 at night when these

tractor trailers are all on the highway?

MR. DAVIS: The issue with operating scales at 12:00 and 1:00 in the

nighttime is a safety issue for lighting, traffic and so on. So, normally they

would not be operated like that.

Having said that, I can tell you there are times under circumstances when

they may be called and be required in a response under certain circumstances.

MR. MURPHY: Basically, what I am wondering then if that is the case, if

it is unsafe to be using portable scales and that sort of thing, I am wondering

about the possibility of government looking at keeping up some of the other

fixed scale positions, if you will, Goobies and wherever else they are, open at

some particular times to see if we cannot find some of these offenders out there

that are basically hauling around too much weight.

MR. DAVIS: It is a matter that we have discussions about it from time to

time. We keep an eye on the operations, on the demand. We have discussions about

traffic and needs, also then to balance that with budgets and funding

allocations. They are discussions we have from time to time and that we continue

to look at. As times change and as we progress, then there are times we make

adjustments to those operations.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I just bring that up as a matter of fact because some people may argue that

studded tires are doing some damage to the highways but whenever I am looking at

a tractor-trailer whose tires are almost flat, not because of safety-code

violations when it comes to the air amount that is in the tires but because of

the cargo they have on board. Sometimes you get trailers out there that are

taking a little bit too much weight and travelling late at night for obvious

reasons. Less traffic may be one, but at the same time trying to beat the scales

is also a habitual thing for some violators out there. I am not pointing the

finger at anybody out there in particular but I think it may be worthwhile if

government considers some of these operations to catch some of these offenders

too at the same time.

MR. DAVIS: Yes. I think along the same lines of what you are referring to

there, it would be important to point out as well that our highway enforcement

officers quite often will work in co-operation with the RCMP and the RNC in

working together for highway safety. Primarily their role is to ensure highways

are safe and that vehicles are fit to be on the road and within their weight

limitations as well. They quite often will work together on those projects, and

some of the efforts that Ms Kelland referred to earlier, when they will do a

blitz or go out and target a particular area, a particular problem, or a

particular concern.

MR. MURPHY: Yes. I guess, Ms Kelland, you are working with the highway

enforcement officers?

I would just like to pass on my compliments to the guys out there. I had

dealings with them in the past, years ago, and I have to say the utmost

co-operation and knowledge that I learned off these guys at the same time. Shawn

I cannot remember Shawn's last name, but I think he will know who I am talking

about.

It is just an exceptional bunch you have there. These guys will get on their

backs in the middle of winter with the wettest kind of ground and coldest kind

of ground dealing with some of these vehicles and everything that are out there.

I can speak from personal experience in the past that she has a great crew

working under her, and my hats go off to them.

That is all the questions, by the way, that I had on this particular

department.

MR. DAVIS: Mr. Murphy, I can tell you that everyone over here certainly

appreciates your comments, and I appreciate your comments as well.

I can tell you, since I became minister in October I worked in public

service my entire life, but somewhat of a different public service from what

people see as public service. We are kind of separate from the general

government service, if you like. Since coming into this position, I can tell you

I have a renewed respect. I always did respect them, but I can tell you I have a

higher respect now for government employees than I did before.

I can speak for my department, specifically. The people who were here tonight

represent almost 1,400 employees in government. There are really dedicated,

hard-working, talented people in government who want to make a difference. They

want to do good work, and they want to have a positive impact on their Province.

It is not unusual for me to come to work at 7:00 o'clock in the morning, and

I can tell you, many times I come here at 7:00 o'clock in the morning I am not

the first person in the office. There are lots of people here ahead of me. When

I leave at 6:30 or 7:00 o'clock at night, it is not unusual to find people who

are still in the office here late at night as well. They are there because they

want to do a good job. They want to get the work done and they want to do it

well.

Right through my department in many different branches, different parts of

the Province and in different areas, I can tell you I am quiet pleased and quite

proud of the work of the public service in this Province.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, and you should be. Like I said, I can certainly speak

for the Highway Enforcement Officers and staff; they are all a great bunch.

I will say this much too, when I was at the wicket the other day renewing my

driver's licence, you have some good, friendly staff in there behind the

wickets, too.

MR. DAVIS: Good. It is always a welcome comment.

MR. MURPHY: Yes. I will say that, now I do not know if it is because of

the leadership or not.

[Laughter]

MR. DAVIS: Having said that, we are open to thoughts and ideas as to how

we can tweak something to make it even better.

Motor Registration you were out to, I assume, the Mount Pearl office?

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. DAVIS: That is an office out there that is working really well. We

get a lot of positive feedback from the citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador

who have interaction with the people in that office and have to visit that

office to carry out their regulatory obligations.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

That is all I had on that particular line of questioning. How am I doing for

time? Do I have a few more minutes?

CHAIR: Well, we can go back to Randy or you.

What is that?

MR. EDMUNDS: By leave.

CHAIR: By leave.

MR. MURPHY: By leave, okay; now that I have Randy's attention, too.

Just a couple of more questions as regards to Motor Vehicle Registration

itself when it comes to the policy items there and a couple of issues that

arise. There are a lot of people getting affected with this lately, licence

plate theft. There has been an abnormal amount, I suppose, maybe it is normal

because you were a police office in your previous career. The costs associated

with the theft of licence plates, for example, the little sticker on the corner

of that place draws a few bucks for somebody on the black market, no doubt.

I would like to get your comments on it, and if Motor Vehicle Registration

may be considering a change in the way vehicles are licensed or if there are any

mechanisms they are considering to try to get around this, because I know that

not only is it an inconvenience and not only is it a pain in the butt, it is

also coming at a cost to the person who is trying to do right. In actual fact, I

think it costs an extra $20 to get the licence plate changed over to a new set

of plates. Through no fault of their own, they are after having this sticker

literally snipped off.

MR. DAVIS: No, I have seen it cut off.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, literally snipped off a licence plate. So, I was just

wondering if the department might be considering probably waiving that $20

replacement fee, just as a simple act of kindness toward the user of the car out

there who has been victimized, basically.

I know the

Document details

Collection	Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees
Citation	2012-05-07
Type	committee
Volume / chapter	committees_standingcommittees_govservices_ga47_2012-05-07_20_gsc-service_20nl_.htm
Language	en
Format	html
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bcaf25e56bec73fba81c48eb9c4e03473b592dc1

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