Manitoba Hansard — 16 June 1980 (Sitting 80A, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-80a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 16, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. - MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Bir tle- Russell): Presen ting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESEN TING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Sp eaker, I beg to present the third report of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. MR. CLERK: Your commit tee accepted the resignation of Mr. Brown as Chairman and appointed Mr. Steen in his stead.

Your Comm ittee met on Tuesd ay, June 10, Thursday, June 12, and Friday, June 13 , 19 80, to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Hydro Electric Board. Your Com mittee received all in formation desired by any member of the Commi ttee from Mr. C. E. Curtis, Acting Chairman of the Board, and members of the staff with respect to all matters pertaining to the Annual Report and the busi ness of Manitoba Hydro. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all members of the Commit tee to seek in formation desired.

Your Comm ittee examined the Annual Report of Manitoba Hydro for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1979, and adopted the same as presented. MR. SPEAKER: The -Ho nourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for River Heights, that the report of the Commi ttee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. KEN MacMASTER, Min ister of Labour (Thompson), on behalf of Hon.

Brian Ransom, Minis ter of Natural Resources (Sou ris-Killa rney) introduced Bill No. 93, The Dutch Elm Disease Act (reco mmen ded by Hi s Honour the Lie utenant Governor). MRS. JUNE WESTBURY (Fort Rouge) introduced Bill No. 88,

An Act to amend The Condominium Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this time, I should like to introduce to the honourable members 21 students of Gr ades 4, 5 and 6 standing from Komarno Eleme ntary School under the di rection of Mr. Buckkowski. This school is in tlie constituency of the Honourable Minister of Education. We also have 52 students of Grade 5 standing from Portage Elementary School under the direction of Mr. Ha rvey Sawa tski. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Portage. At the same time, in the Speaker's Gallery, is Mr.

John Robinson of New Zealand, who is the world champion in the Masters Division in the Manitoba Marathon. He came in 13th overall but he won the Masters. He is an engine ering teacher in New Zealand. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you , Mr. Sp eaker. In the absence of the Minister of Economic Development, I would like to pose this question to the First Minister, with regard to a report regard ing Jordan's Winery.

I wonder if the Premier can advise whether it is correct that Jordan 's Winery, now located in Selkirk, is about to close down within the next few months. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Char leswood ): Mr. Speaker, I'll be happy to take the question as notice on behalf of the Minister. I have no information on the enquiry that has been placed. MR. EVANS: I would like to then ask a supp lementary question to the Attorney-General, responsible for the Liquor Commission, Mr.

Speaker, and ask the Attorney-General whether Jor dan's Wines at the present time, because it is a Manitoba operation, obtained special consideration from the Manitoba Liquor Commission, in terms of number of listings or whatever, in order to hopefully stimulate the sales of that plant and therefore help to increase production from that particular winery in Selkirk. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr.

Sp eaker, I believe that there have been some special arrangements made with that particular winery, but I'll take that question as notice and obtain the details of the in formation from the Liquor Control Commission and give that to the member at a later date. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Brandon East with a final supplementary. MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Attorney-General would also take under advisement the matter of the possible closure of the 4783

Monday, June 16, 1980 company and consider whether there are possibilities of helping to keep that particular operation open, if it is correct that they are closing, if he would look into the pos sibility of seek ing ways and means of maintaining the operation in the town of Selkirk. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have certainly received no information from the Commission as to the closing, as sug gested by the member, but I'll take his question as notice and consult with the Liquor Commission. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mb er for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the Min ister of Labour. I wonder if he can inform the House whether he or his department are condu cting an invest igation into the alleged harrassment or intimidation of nur ses at the Concordia Hospital. MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. FOX: I appreciate the answer. I wonder if he can give us the parameters of the investigation, and who is conducting the investigation. MR.

MacMASTER: There is a norma l set of circumstances - not a normal set of circumstances, a normal set of procedures that are in place when you are asked to establish an enquiry into what is considered to be unfair labour practices in whatever way, shape or form. The Nur ses' Association, under the title of the Executive Director, I believe is Mr s. Gleason's name, have made representation to our department asking for an invest igation into circumstances that they allege are taking place, and an inpsector has been assigned.

I don't know the precise name, but I know that the department has assigned someone to look into those allegations. I should say, Mr. Speaker, that there are occasions when the inspector himself, through conversa tions and wo rking with both parties, can sometimes resolve the matter and, of course, we hope it is resolved satisfactorily. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mem ber for Kildonan. MR. FOX: I thank the Honourable Min ister for that answer. I wonder if he is prepared to let the house and the members know when the investigation has been concluded as to what occurred. MR.

MacMASTER: The investigator's report is never made public, Mr. Speaker, but from it flows sug gestive action by the Minister, being myself, and the member certainly will be made aware - I can specifically make him aware of what actions are deemed necessary at the appropriate time by myself. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hon ourable Mem ber for Transonca. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Health.

In view of the fact that some 22 rural hospitals have clauses in their collective agreements providing job security in the event of contracting out, can the Minister indicate whether the government has laid down any guidelines to the Manitoba Health Services Commission and to hospitals concerning the entire issue of contracting out and job security? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): No, Sir. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I would like to ask a supplemen tary to the Min ister.

In the absence of any guidelines from the government on this matter, does that mean the government condon es contracting out as a device by hospitals to get around collective agreements, and also in order to pay lower wages; is that the practice condon ed by the government with their absence of guidelines on this matter? MR. SHERMAN: No, Sir. MR.

PARASIUK: In view of the fact that rural hospitals are being forced to opt for contracting out because of the th ree years of acute protracted Conservative restraint, can the Minis ter indicate whether indeed there will be some fle xibility in funding by the provi ncial government to hard pressed rural hospitals to ensure that hospitals aren't forced to use contracting out as a device to come close to the budget gu idelines of 8 percent arbitrary limits put on by this government? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't accept the

preamble to the honourable member's question, therefore I can't deal with the question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Mem ber for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My qu est ion is to the Mi nister responsibl e for Environmenta l Affairs. I would ask the Minister if he can indicate if the department yet has received any information from the Hearings ongoing in the United Sta tes as part of an Environmenta l Protect ion Agency investigation into the use of 2,4,5-T? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Mini ster of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. WARNER JORGENSON (Morris): No, Mr. Speaker. MR.

COWAN: I would ask the Minister if he is aware of a document from Environment Canada entitled Pesticide Mon itorin g in the Pr airies of Western Canada, and dated 1979, that indicates that ground water systems and some su rface water systems in the province of Ma nitoba are contaminated with 2,4,5-T? MR. JORGENSON: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the document. MR. COWAN: As a copy is available, Mr. Speaker, through the Legislative Library, I would ask the Minister to review that and ask him if he is prepared to report back to the House as to his findings in regard to that contamination of water systems by 4784

Monday, June 16, 1980 2,4,5-T, and also report back as to any actions his department feels necessary in dealing with that problem. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONA LD McBRYDE: Mr . Sp eaker, my qu estion is to the Mini ster of Agricu lture. The Minister has received communications from The Pas Chamber of Commerce and the Local Government District of Consol in regard to water levels in the Saskeram area near The Pas, and I wonder if the Minister has yet responded to that communication? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there has been a response to the people who are affected in the Saskeram area. I have been in dir ect commun ication with the farmers of that particular area. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could let me know what he said. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I can ind icate to the member, as we as a government have ind icated that we are going to allow haying to take place in the Saskeram area; that decision was made some time ago that that process would take place; that it would have to be done in an orderly fashion; that in fact we would have to assess the amount of water that would have to be let out of the Saskeram area to make the amount of hay necessary that would be worthwhile. I have staff in the area this morning, and there is an assessment being made of that particular situtation. Further to that, Mr.

Speaker, we are in the process of, as I said, making arrangements to put in a bridge or temporary communication link through the Minister of Hig hways to accommodate those people who are desirous of going in and getting hay. There has to be worked out a form or a method of distribution of the hay after the communic ation link is made; there has to be a fair and equitable system put into place. We have also been in touch with Ducks Unlimi ted, Mr. Speaker, who are also in volved because they do hold a lease on that particular land. There are a lot of things happening in that particular area.

It has to be done in an orderly manner, and let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that has been taking place over the past few days. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General and ask him whether he would confirm that Mayor Norrie and himself have sought the immediate approval of the Sherbrook-McGregor overpass from the Honourable Jean-Luc Pepin, and if that is forthcoming when the construction of that project would commence? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MERCIER : Mr.

Sp eaker, we've not only sought it, I received today at noon, in fact, a telex from Mr. Pepin announcing approval of the project and a request to the Canadian Transport Commission to issue a construction order to enable the project to proceed. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, a second part of that question already mentioned is, when is the earliest one could expect actual construction to be gin.

I would also ask the Minister if he could indicate his position on the 2-3 million cost overrun due to the delay of that project; whether he regards that as a complete federal respo nsibility; whether he regards that as a respo nsibility that will be borne by his admin istration, and the federal gove rnment, or whether he feels that the three levels of government should share that cost overrun. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-GeneraL MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the first part of that qu es tion, I unde rstand that construction could probably start in the early part of 1981 on the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass. In response to the second part of that question, when Mayor Norrie and I met with Mr. Pepin in Ottawa, we advised him at that time of the concern over the cost increases which had occurred as a result of the delay caused by the federal government in ordering the further study on rail relocation. Mr.

Pepin asked the mayor, particularly, to document the reasons for the delay and the reasons for requesting the federal government to compensate for those cost inc reases. In a meeting I had this morning with Mayor Norrie, Mr. Speaker, he advised me that he would very shortly be forwarding that documentation to Mr. Pepin. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Elmwood with a final supp lementary. MR. DOERN: Mr. Sp eaker, on a related matter, apparently the city is in terested in knowing the provincial position on some projects that were once planned for part of the core area of Winnip eg.

Two projects were proceeded with, but the Provincial Autopac Building was cancelled and the courthouse, which was slated to go in a designated area, was slated for another part of the city. In view of the fact that there was an original city request, an original commitment for four projects, and now a change, does the province have any plans to put any other buildings in that part of the city of Winnip eg, in lieu of the cancelled projects? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, we discussed this morning with the mayor, the land that had previously been purch ased by the provincial government for a courthouse facility in the vicinity of the city hall. We will be reviewing that matter further with Government Services and what, if any, plans that department has for that property and any plans the city may have need for that property. 4785

Monday, June 16, 1980 As has been indicated previously, federal, provincial and municipal officials are meeting on a regular basis, under the proposal from the federal government, to consider initiatives in the inner core area. We expect to receive, because we have not yet received it, a letter from Mr. De Bane and Mr. Axworthy, specifically outlining the particular proposal. We intend then to enter into .an interim agreement among all three levels of government, to review priority programs for initiatives in the inner core. When that is completed, Mr.

Speaker, then I would expect to be able to indicate to the Member for Elmwood a number of projects that will be taking place in the inner core area. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is addressed to the Honourable Attorney-General. Would the Honourable Minister confirm that juveniles who are arrested at night or over the weekend have fewer rights in the matter of making bail application than adults in the same circumstances do. MR. MERCIER: No, Mr. Speaker. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Minister would respond to the information that I have received to the effect that a Justice of the Peace is on call continually at night and on weekends for adults who are charged. No such Justice of the Peace is on call for juveniles and it is the responsibility of the lawyer representing the juvenile or the juvenile's family to try to contact a judge who out of the goodness of his heart will come downtown or into the city from the lake or wherever he or she happens to be in order make it possible for the juvenile to apply for bail. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: I'll take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker, and inquire into it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture. I would ask the Minister if, in view of the drought and the shortage of water this year, if there is a program available to assist farmers to drill new wells on farms because of wells going dry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, to be specific on farm wells, I'm sure that if there are farmers having difficulty we would be quite prepared to assess or look at the specific requests that the member is bringing to our attention. We do have a program, it's under the Agro-water Program, where we cost share up to a maximum of 2,000 to assist in source development, and wells , particularly those that are not on the farmsteads do qualify for that particular program. We are looking at other programs or other assistance that may be implemented, and I will review or get information for the member on the specific area that he is requesting.

MR. ADAM: I take it then that there is a program available, Mr. Speaker, for development of water on Crown lands for dugouts. I'm not sure now whether the Minister has given me a specific answer as to privately-owned land where the well has gone dry, and there is assistance available from PFRA. We had a program under the previous administration where there was some assistance for the costs to be provided by the province. I wanted to clarify that part from the Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the program I referred to does also apply to privately-owned land. It doesn't have to be Crown land.

We also have waived the dugout filling charges for this year, as I announced on Friday, that if individuals want to pump their dugouts full from rivers or known sources, that in fact any charges for that will be waived. I am saying that any specific farm assistance for the development or the further development of wells, to be specific, on the programs that are available at this particular time, I can't respond specifically to that particular question. I will take it as notice and refer back to my department for the specifics of that particular request. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose on a final supplementary. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I'm wondering if the Minister could advise if there are any pumps available for pumping of water. I had a request this morning from people wondering if they could obtain a pump to pump water from Lake Manitoba onto their pastures in order to - they've only received about a half an inch of rain since last week, and within a couple of weeks they are going to have to start liquidating their livestock, the basic herd, which has taken them 15 years to develop. They are wondering, first of all, where are the pumps. They are in the Gladstone region, Mr.

Speaker, and the Ag Rep is away and they were not able to get a response or any information where they could apply or obtain necessary pumps to pump water onto their pastures. I wonder if the Minister could give some information in that regard. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the member is asking the question are there pumps available for irrigation is really the question, and not are pumps available to supply on-farm water. At this particular time, Mr. Speaker, we don't have a program in place that would assist the purchase of pumps or the making available of pumps for the irrigation of land.

I think we have a supply of pumps available, and the information that I have is that we do have, for pumping of water into dugouts. We have also instructed the department if more pumps are needed that they have the authority to go ahead and purchase pumps, so there shouldn't be any roadblocks as far as the departments or the farm community are concerned. But there isn't a program in place to irrigate land out of Lake Manitoba or anywhere. 4786

Monday, June 16, 1980 appreciate the member bringing this information to me. I have also been out through rural Manitoba and can appreciate what the member is suggesting, because there is an urgent need for farmers to try and make all their own feed available that they can, because of the high cost of feed being brought in from other areas. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I wonder if I may have the indulgence of the House at this time to interrupt to introduce to you the Honourable Paul Cosgrove, Minister of Public Works, here from Ottawa.

On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose with a fourth question. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, this is my fourth question to the Minister. I ask him if he would take under consideration to allow the program to be flexible enough to provide pumps, if they are available, for that specific purpose of irrigating some of those pastures that happen to be fortunate enough to be close to a water supply? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will take under consideration the recommendation from the member. MR.

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Health, again with regard to the negotiations that are in progress between the MHO and the other CUPE workers outside of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, there is already a considerable spread in wage levels between the Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg and centres outside of the city, and there is possibility of this spread widening.

I understand the spread is now 61 cents per hour on an average, and that if the union accepted the offer the spread will widen to about 85 cents per hour on an average. My question to the Minister is, does he approve of this type of discrimination; does he approve of this unusually high differential between wage levels in the city of Winnipeg and the possibility of such lower wage levels in centres outside of the city of Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I don't accept the discrepancy in the range that has been suggested by the Honourable Member for Brandon East. Secondly, I would advise him that the two sides are scheduled to be back at the bargaining table tomorrow and he is fully aware, I think, from news reports over the weekend, as to where the differences of opinion now lie between the union and the MHO, and I think, Sir, that I should reserve comment on that question he has asked me until after the two sides have reached a settlement, which hopefully will come fairly soon. MR.

EVANS: I would like to ask the Honourable Minister a general question then. Does the Honourable Minister of Health believe that, in principle, workers in the Health ·care field should be paid approximately the same for the same kind of work, for the same kind of effort, no matter where they are in the province of Manitoba inasmuch as they are being paid by the same source, namely, the Manitoba taxpayer? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe that. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise the House whether the level of funding, on a proportionate basis at least, between Brandon and other rural centres on the one side, the health institutions and those centres on the one side, and those in Winnipeg on the other, whether the funding is proportionately lower in health institutions outside of the city of Winnipeg. Does the government spend fewer dollars proportionately on health centres outside of the city of Winnipeg? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to that question is probably yes, but that is a qualified answer, I would have to check the figures. I would not be surprised if my suggestion of a probable answer proved out on examination because, as the honourable member well knows, there are major teaching, referral and research centres located in the city of Winnipeg, which include in their patient volumes an enormous number, an enormous percentage in relative terms of referrals from other parts of Manitoba.

So the answer is probably yes, but it would be found and founded in that kind of different scale of operation, and I don't want to give a definitiv e answer until I check my budgetary figures. MR. EVANS: Just a supplementary then, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister undertake a brief analysis of this and put aside the special functions that are offered by the Health Sciences Centre and other large institutions in Winnipeg and look at the commonalty of service offered in the rural centres, centres outside of Winnipeg and those in Winnipeg, and see indeed whether the government of Manitoba does pay fewer dollars for the same kind of service in rural Manitoba? MR. SHERM AN: Yes, I could do that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Cultural Affairs and ask her if she can report on an apparent clash between the conductor of the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra and the business manager? MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. 4787

Monday, June 16, 1980 HON. NORMA PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, the only information I have is the same as the Member for Elmwood has, it is what I have read in the paper. MR. DOERN: I'll note that, Mr. Speaker. Could I also ask the Minister whether she can report on the fund raising efforts of Symphony as to wl)ether they are getting that high deficit down to manageable size? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker, I haven't been made aware of what their fund raising has amounted to. I know they have been able to keep ahead of their current expenses, but I don't know anything further than that. MR.

SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask a question of the First Minister, Mr. Speaker. I would like to be apprised of the position that Manitoba took at the recent round of the Constitutional Conference with respect to the entrenchment of Indian and aboriginal rights in the Constitution. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the Conference was outlined before I went to the Conference.

When I returned, my statements are on the record with respect to what was agreed to on Monday last, which was namely process and schedule. MR. CORRIN: A supplementary to that, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the Honourable First Minister whether Manitoba expressed support for the participation of representatives of the National Indian Brotherhood in order to enable them, as they have wished and asked, to participate in future rounds of the conferences now being conducted? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, there has been no final determination that I am aware of as to who will have observer status at upcoming conferences.

Those with a territorial, that is territorial legitimacy in the sense of the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, will be accorded observer status, I believe, although the parameters of it are not finally laid out. Others, including the groups of which my honourable friend speaks, have previously been represented at such conferences in the category of observers, and what the future will hold in that respect of course, will be a determination of the Ministers involved, either at the continuing committee or the First Ministers'. But for them to observer status, would of course not be new. MR.

SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington with a final supplementary. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, can we infer then, from the remarks of the Honourable First Minister, that Manitoba views the native requests for special representative status as being improper and beyond the purview of this particular conference? And I ask that, Mr. Speaker, for clarification, because I heard the Honourable First Minister indicate to the Assembly that only groups with territorial rights would be allowed to participate, and he regarded this group as being a potential viewer group, not a potential participating group.

So I would ask then, whether Manitoba has taken the position that aboriginal rights with respect to land are such as would not allow and enable the native organization of this country to participate in this constitutional conference. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I don't know from whence my honourable friend draws his conclusions or his implications at all, but I indicated to the House, Mr. Speaker, in response to the question of the honourable member, was that the Yukon and the Northwest Territories have a special position in that they are territorial.

They are territories in Canada, and as such will be accorded some status, whether observer or whatever, at some subsequent conference. Going on memory, I'm not sure whether they've been at previous conferences as observers or not. I do recall however, that members of the National Indian Brotherhood, one or two chiefs from Manitoba came as observers to one of the conferences that we held previously, at which they desired to be observers, and so that status, I imagine will be accorded at subsequent conferences if it's requested. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Environment. I wonder if the Minister has an answer yet to the question I asked him a number of days ago in regard to the granting of permits to local government authorities for the use of 2,4,5-T. How many of those permits has the Minister granted to date, for which local government areas, and what is the magnitude of the use. Does the permit show exactly how much of the chemical will be used? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, the weed control districts in the municipalities that have applied for permission to use 2,4,5-T are the Rural Municipalities of Lawrence, De Salaberry, The Rosedale, Langford and Neepawa Weed Control Districts, the Dauphin, Ochre River Weed Control District and the Department of Highways. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, part of my question was, does the Minister have the information in terms of the amount of the chemical 2,4,5-T to be used? Can he give us some idea of how much would be used in the granting of these permits by his department? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I don't have that information. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. 4788

Monday, June 16, 1980 MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether the Department of Highways has now completed its spraying of certain highways in northern Manitoba, and whether or not the Minister of the Environment, in light of the federal study which shows some contamination of Manitoba waterways by the chemical 2,4,5-T, or containing the chemical 2,4,5-T, what ongoing monitoring does he intend to have his department do in regard to the use of 2,4,5-T and its spreading into waterways? MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Highways will have to answer the first part of the honourable member's question. Insofar as contamination of waterways is concerned, I doubt very much if any of that spraying took place near waterways. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture. I would ask the Minister if he can advise if there are any wildlife areas that have now been prepared and ready for livestock pasturing? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated some time ago, a lot of the wildlife management areas that had been bought by the administration of which he was a member, removed all the fences from the pastures that were there, and it would take some time to replace those particular fences. There are areas that are being looked at as far as the replacement of those fences at this particular time. I don't believe there have been any done, but they've identified areas that can be used in conjunction with some of the PFRA pastures, and it's a matter of probably using herding or range riders to caretake the livestock.

But we have identified certain areas; as far as replacement of fences to this point, I don't believe that any fences have been put in place. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister if he intends to have the electric fences rather than the several strands of wire? I believe with one strand it could be done more quickly. The Minister answered the question last week or the week before in this regard, that they were looking at it, but now the week has gone by and the situation is getting more critical. I believe the community PFRA pastues are getting very, very bare as well.

I passed along one this morning, Mr. Speaker, and it looked like they should be moving cattle out of there very shortly. I wonder if the Minister could leave the political arena aside and see if he can't get down to some action in order to provide some of these pastures, as soon as possible, because in two weeks time, it will be too late. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, let me assure you that everything that is possible is being done.

If he knows of a specific area that could be made available, and if he could identify that particular piece of Crown land or range land, I would be pleased if he would bring forward that specific piece of ground, or the legal description, so some action could be taken. As far as the use of electric wires are concerned, I think the member can well appreciate, that to fence a lot of the bushland or a lot of land that has got scrub associated with it, it would be very difficult to put in place an electric system that would be effective in containing the livestock. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose with a final supplementary. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister if he is able to get in touch with his colleague, the Minister of Mines and Resources, to find out where these wildlife areas area. I'm sure the Minister of Mines and Resources would have more information in regard to wildlife areas in this province. I would ask the Minister if he could use his good office to get in touch with his colleague to find out where these areas are. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I think it's the Member for Ste.

Rose who is now trying to play politics with this and he's really not that sincere about helping resolve the problem. I thought, Mr. Speaker, that he had some specific piece of ground that he could refer to. There has been ongoing communication between my department and the Department of Natural Resources to work out areas that may be used for the livestock producer, and I use the example of the Saskeram area in The Pas, where there appears to be a large quantity of hay, which a decision has been made to go and obtain that hay for livestick feed supplies. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health and follows on an answer that the Minister provided to me on Thursday with regard to the hospital beds at Leaf Rapids Centre. On that occasion, he indicated that the hospital beds were operating and as I have had several calls since that time suggesting that such is not the case, can the Minister indicate if he has had an update as to the status of those hospital beds in Leaf Rapids Health Centre and if, in fact, they are not operating at the present time? MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Speaker. I'll have to check on that for the honourable Member.

The last report I had was on Friday and that was my information, that the hospital was operating and was staffed, from a nursing point of view, in the manner which I suggested at that time, but the occupancy was 30 to 40 percent, which would be approprimately three beds out of the eight. I will have to report further to the honourable member tomorrow. 4789

Monday, June 16, 1980 MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the Minister's efforts in this regard, as it has been indicated to me by private sources that the eight beds are in fact not operating and there are no bed facilities, although there are other health care facilities available. At the ' time of questioning, the Minister of Transportation responsible for Government Air Services, indicated that an Aztec had been placed in Thompson permanently so as to provide fast and quick access to patients needing it in Leaf Rapids.

It has come to my attention that while the Aztec is in Thompson, when there was an emergency medivac call from Leaf Rapids over the weekend, the pilot was in Winnipeg and, as a result of that, there was no medivac by the government services and a private airline had to make that medivac. I would ask the Minister of Health if he would check into this situation and ensure that not only the Aztec is available in Thompson, but that also there is a pilot stationed in Thompson so that the Aztec can be flown to where it is needed on an emergency basis. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. McMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, I might be able to help answer that particular question. I was Minister responsible for the Transportation Division for a period of time. There was, on occasion, Mr. Speaker, through you to the Member for Churchill, there have been occasions when pilots, planes, or whatever, were occupied in a different place. It is not unusual for Government Services, in conjunction with whatever group that's dealing with the emergency, it's not unusual for them to deal as expediently as they can by sometimes employing some other airline.

It's sort of a backup for the service that we have in place, and if either plane, pilot or whatever is out, or whatever the case may be. To the Member for Churchill, that could have been an unusual set of circumstances, but it certainly is not without precedent that they do, in fact, and will, in fact, contact a private carrier if for any reason their planes or the pilots aren't available. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period having expired, the Honourable Member for Gladstone. COMM ITTEE CHANGE MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move a change on Private Bills and substitute the name of Mr. Steen for Mr. Gourlay. MR. SPEAKER: Is that change agreeable? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister will, in Room 254, deal with his estimates on Executive Council, Legislation and General Salary Increases, which will leave only Flood Control , plus the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, which will begin in the House. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister without Portfolio, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into a Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for Department of Economic Development and Tourism, and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for Department of Legislation. CONCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - LEGISLATION (

I) MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. Page 3, Legislation. Are there any comments on the items down to Resolution 1.(4)(a) - the Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: I'm looking at, I guess it's item 3.(

b) and I see a very significant increase there from 69,300 to 146,000. All the others seem by statute to be quite - well, that one, and I guess mileage allowance has more than doubled; that's 3.(d). 3.(

b) has gone up by two and a half times; not quite two and a half times. Both of them have more than doubled anyway. MR. CHAIRMAN: The First Minister. MR. L VON: The living allowance, is that the item that the honourable member is referring to? MR. PARASIUK: Yes, and also mileage allowance, I guess, is (d). MR. L VON: The living allowance reflects the increase from 25 to 40 a day for members who do not represent Winnipeg constituencies, and the mileage allowance reflects the fact that the members are now receiving the civil service rates as opposed to 15 cents a mile in last year's estimates. MR.

PARASIUK: What are they now? MR. LYON: The current rate, Mr. Chairman, I can't tell you off the top of my head, but it's the same as the civil service rate. It relates to the size of the car and the number of miles travelled. That's the way the civil service is adjusted. MR. PARASIUK: Do you pay more if they're driving a small car and travelling a large number of miles, or if they're driving a large car and travelling a small number of miles? That's just facetious, really. I want to make one comment on this just so that it's known.

I don't have any strong positions one way or the other on it, but I'm not sure people always understand this, that is, that rural members do get a per diem of 25 per day - sorry, per diem of 40 per day now, and that is paid to rural members whether they are Cabinet Ministers or not. That was one of the big changes in last year's legislation, which now allows a Cabinet Minister to claim per diems of 40 per day, and if we sit something in the order of I guess 100 days, that's an increase in salary in a sense to a Cabinet Minister of 4,000, in that one of 4790

Monday, June 16, 1980 the assumptions, I think, behind a pay incr ease for Cabinet Ministers is that they are full-time and they should be paid accordingly. There is a bit of an anomoly there, I think, and I just raise it for the record. I don't have a hard position on it, I just find it a bit of an anomoly. With part-time members, they are given a per diem and I think that's what the per di em recognizes, but Cabinet Minis ters are now being consi dered full-time salaried people in the government and they are also getting a full-time salary, plus a per diem, and I just say that that's an anomoly. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Are there any other comments to do with the statutory items, 1, 2, and 3? The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the First Minister could comment on the bill before the House - could we discuss that here at all - with regard to an increase in indemn ities for all members of the Legislative Assembly? Are we allowed to speak on it at this item? MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I would be the last to want to offend the rule against repetition, so I would prefer to confine my remarks to the bill, which is on its way into the House fairly shortly, and we will be dealing specifically with the items that are contained in that bill. The bill, of course, has been announced, as a matter of policy by the government. It should be in the hands of the House very shortly and we can deal with the specific items in that bill when it's before us. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I was asking you, Sir, to advise us whether we can discuss· this on this item, the incr ease in salaries.

I'm not sure whether there is any allocation in this estimate, if there are any fiscal requir ements, or monetary requir ements in this legislation to cover that. That's the in formation I was asking you, Sir, and if it's not there, then I guess we'll have to wait until . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe that will come under Supp lementary Supply. MR. ADAM: It comes under Suppl ementary Supply. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)- pass; 4.(b)- pass - the Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Chairman, I want your guidance.

I want to discuss something that I brought up during the Question Period, and that is the position of the First Minister and the Cabinet, and in deed the Government of Manitoba, with respect to In dia n Rights. I would like to know where Native Rights might be dis cussed in the context of the items before us. MR. LYON: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that Executive Council is a pretty general item and that migh t be the appropriate place for any general discusson of that sort. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)- pass; 4.(c) - the Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: I was in Saskatchewan last week for one day and I was there when Dick Collver was filibustering on a bill to take away the salary for the second opposition party because he had switched allegiance during the course of the term, that is, he did not run as a separatist, as a unionist to the United States in the last election. Indeed, in the last election, he ran as the Leader of the Progessive Cons ervative Party of Saskatchewan.

Since that time, he has qui t being Leader of the Progessive Cons ervative Party in Saskatchewan, he has quit being a member of the Progressive Conservative Party, he is advocating that Saskatchewan, or at least western Canada, separate from Canada and join the United States. And he has converted one other Cons ervative to this rather strange position, and there is thought that he may be able to convert some other Conservatives in Sask atchewan to that position. But the point is, he has claimed the legislation endowment for the second opposition party. What is the situation in Manitoba regarding that?

How does one qualify for second opposition party? Would that mean you'd have to have four members, and would they be legally entitled to it, if in fact they switched from one party to another and set up another party?

I don't imagine that we will have four Cons ervatives, or even four New Democrats quitting their respective parties in Manitoba and wanting to join a unionist party and join Dick Cu lver's movement, but he apparently is a fairly persuasive man; he's been able to convert one Cons ervative in Sa skatchewan already, so I'm just asking on a contingency basis what our provisions are for payment of second opposition party leaders indemnity? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, as the member has indi cated, the pr ovision for es tablishm ent of a second op position party is containe d in The Legislative Assembly Act.

It requir es that there be four memb!lrS of a party with an acknowledged leader, and so on. We have no contingency plans against the kind of unique situation that is occurring in the province of Saskatchewan. It's not the first unique situation that's occurred in that province, and we're not free from uni que situations although I agree with the estimate of the honourable member that the likeli hood of that particular set of cir cumstances occurring in Manitoba is in deed remote. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)-pa ss; 4.(d)- pass; 4.(e) pass; Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 879,200 for Legislation- pass. 5.(a)- pass - the Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: I think this matter has been discus sed in Public Accounts, so I'll let it pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(b)- pass; Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 1, 341 ,500 for Legislation- pass. 6.(a)- pass - the Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Thank you.

I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere - I've certainly not had the opportunity to discuss it yet - this concerns the matter of the ombudsman. When do es the ombudsman's term expire? 4791

Monday, June 16, 1980 MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, my recollection is that his statutory term expires in about a year and a half - I can get the exact time on that - even though he is at the present time beyond the normal retirement age. MR. PARASIUK: I personally consider this to be a very important position, especially since this person and this office really interacts with individuals who are complaining about the administration generally, and that it's very important for the filling of this position to receive careful attention.

I would like to ask the First Minister if he intends to follow the practice set when the first and present ombudsman was appointed and provide for in a sense all party concensus on the selection of this particular individual. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, again without having the statue in front of me, my recollection is that there is a statutory requirement along the lines that the member speaks of, and it would certainly be the intention of the government to honour that statute in the selection process, as and when it becomes necessary. MR. CHA IRMAN: 6.( a)-p ass; 6.(b)- pass.

Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 173,200 for Legislation-pass. SUPPLY - EXECUTIVE COUNCIL (II) MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): Now committee, we turn to the next page, Executive Council. We go to 1.(b), we'll be returning to the Salary 1.(a), at the tail end. 1.(b)- pass - the Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Is this the Member for Brandon West? MR. LYON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)-pass; 1.(c)-pass - the Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairperson, I see a fairly substantial increase here, almost approaching - well something in the order of over 40 percent, 40-45 percent increase in the staff of the Premier, and I'm wondering if the First Minister can explain why there is this very dramatic increase in staff in his own department when increases in staff in other departments for possibly needier programs has been kept to a minimum? MR. LYON: There are five positions for approval: One Executive Assistant 1, two AYMs, one PM1, and one contingency, plus salary adjustments, which are being put into the estimates this year.

There is a further amount - I'm sorry, that shows up under Other Expenditures. I can give the honourable member, Mr. Chairman, a sheet showing all of the positions, if that could be duplicated for members of the committee, by title, along with the salaries, which amount to 587,700.00. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairperson, perhaps I could suggest that we get them copied and we just pass over this item for a minute while it is being copied. We're going to get back to the Minister's Salary probably in about 10 minutes. I don't think I'll have any questions on it, but I would just like to see the paper. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(d)- pass; 1.(e)- pass; 1.(f)- pass - the Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIU K: Could we just get a brief explanation of what this entails, International Development Program? MR. LYON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this is the program that has been undertaken now for a number of years, funded out of this Executive Council Vote, for international programs that are done in conjunction with other CJD money that is made available by CIDA, and organized by the Manitoba Council for International Co-operation.

They have a number of programs that they fund each year, for which they receive matching grants from CIDA - I shouldn't use the word matching - additional grants from CIDA, as well as from a number of private organizations, for international development projects throughout the world. A list of those current projects is available if the honourable member would like to have it. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I would appreciate if the First Minister could send it to me. I don't really want to ask any questions on that. MR. LYON: Agreed. MR.

PARASIUK: I have one other point, though, and that concerns the International Development Program. There is one particular program that seems to be utilizing the 250,000.00. At the same time, I'm quite certain that Manitoba is involved in a number of other international development efforts, probably through the Department of Agriculture in certain instances, the Department of Resources, and other instances like that. -( Interjection)- Education, sure.

So that this is just a specific one but there are a whole bunch of others spread throughout, with their own probably bilateral arrangements with the federal government. I don't have any questions on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(f)- pass; 1.(g)-pass - the Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I see that there was nothing in this item last year and it seems to be a new item. Could the First Minister explain what it covers? MR. LYON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this is a special grant that did not come under Item (

e) Government Hospitality and Presentations, a special grant going to the Wartime Pilots and Observers Association, who are holding their international convention in Winnipeg in September of this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(g)-p ass; 2.- pass. Now we will return to the Minister's Salary. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 7,000 for Executive Council-pass. 4792

Monday, June 16, 1980 MR. LYON: I believe the Member for Transcona agreed that we can pass Item 1.(c), Mr. Chairman, and we can deal with that in the Minister's Salary if he has any questions on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Now we return to 1.(

a) Minister's Compensation. The Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Recently, and I averred to this during the course of today's question period, Mr. Chairman, recently the denial of access to the Constitutional Conference to representatives of the National Indian Brotherhood has been decried by those representatives as being in violation of their rights. In this regard, Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the First Minister whether he can advise why Manitoba has taken the position that the elected leaders of the Treaty Indian population of this country should not be allowed to participate at the Constitutional Conference on an equal basis with the representatives of the other jurisdictions affected by those negotiations and discussions. Perhaps it may sound a bit strange, Mr. Chairman, but I tell you that it is my belief that Indian rights should be entrenched in the Constitution of Canada and there should be recognition given to Treaty status, as well as their aboriginal rights.

I say that, Mr. Chairman, because I recognize them as being the first Canadians, the people who owned this country, quite literally owned all the property of this country prior to the arrival of those who came afterwards. This conference will be discussing the very important matters of the division of powers, recognition of territorial rights within this country, and it seems to me that if it's to be done in any sort of detailed perspective, it has to be done, Mr. Chairman, in the context of the rights of the native peoples of this country. This is a critical time for them, Mr.

Chairman, because they have for some number of years been trying to determine what those rights might be, trying to establish whether those rights will confer upon them certain territorial prerogatives with respect to the administration of laws, the creation of laws for that matter, on treaty lands, reserve lands. I, for one, Mr. Chairman, would be interested in knowing what position Manitoba will be taking with respect to these rights, and certainly, Mr.

Chairman, I would be interested in knowing why Manitoba would preclude the properly elected representatives of that population from participating at the conference. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I think we're all aware of the continuing discussions that are taking place between the national government and the various provincial governments with the representatives of the various native groups within the provinces, and of course within the jurisdiction of the federal government.

The methodology whereby the demands or the requests of these groups with respect to constitutional reform can be heard, has been discussed on previous occasions at conferences and was alluded to very briefly at the meeting that we had in Ottawa a week ago Monday.

I'm not certain where my honourable friend gets the view that Manitoba took any particular or peculiar position in this regard, in that any determination that is made by the 11 First Ministers on such a topic, as and when it is made, and to the best of my knowledge there has been no final determination made, will be with respect to this particular group, not necessarily in relation to any other groups.

But all I can say to him, as I mentioned in question period, is that there was a special category of consideration for the territorial governments of the Yukon and of the Northwest Territories, and some modus is being worked out whereby they will be accorded observer status, which has previously been accorded to municipal groups, to Indian groups and other native groups. What the final determination will be on that, I do not know at this stage.

I would expect however, because there is a precedent for it, at at least one conference that I can recall, where some of the chiefs of bands or their representatives certainly were included in provincial delegations as observers. That was the case with respect to Manitoba, and what further approach will be taken with respect to the National Indian Brotherhood, I can't say at this time. I'm not aware that there has been a final determination made. MR. CORRIN: Mr.

Chairman, in response to the First Minister's ascertation that he knew not from whence came my opinion that Manitoba had taken a position, I would indicate that I inferred it from his remarks in the Assembly this afternoon. He indicated at that time that he had consigned, or it had been the consensus decision by the Ministers in attendance at last week's meeting, that the native representatives should be assigned observer status, and that, Mr. Chairman, was not what they wanted.

They came to that meeting, and as I'm sure the First Minister will remember, they were turned away. - (Interjection)- This is the meeting in Ottawa held with the First Minister on the constitutional talks. MR. LYON: Last week? MR. CORRIN: Last week. MR. LYON: I'm not aware that . MR. CORRIN: I would have thought it was well known, Mr.

Chairman - the First Minister says he wasn't aware - there were newspaper reports that indicated that half a dozen of such leaders came to the meeting, were turned away at the door, went across the street to the Governor General's residence where they had discussions with Governor General Schreyer. I believe they left a brief with one of the security officers at the front door, who delivered it to the Prime Minister, and there was some controversy as to whether or not they should be allowed in to participate in the discussions before the conference. So on that basis, Mr.

Chairman, since they have asked that they be allowed to have representat ive status at the conference, not only observer status, that I ask these questions. I would like to know whether Manitoba would be willing to confer that full status upon them, and if not, why not? It seems to me that if we are not going to confer these rights upon them, there should be some good reason, and I 4793

Monday, June 16, 1980 would like to know why Manitoba feels they should not have access to the conference as full participants. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, the meeting last Monday was a meeting of the Prime Minister and the 10 Premiers of Canada, period. That was that. At subsequent meetings - and its purpose, as I indicated last Tuesday, and prior to going to the meet ing, was essentially to determine a schedule, agenda items, and that purpose was accomplished.

The Minister of Urban Affairs, also the Attorney General, is off to Ottawa tomorrow to attend the first of the meetings of the Continuing Committee of Ministers on the Constitution. As to what will be done at later meetings with respect to conferring of observer status or any other status on native groups, the territorial governments - I believe municipal governments have also indicated that they would like to have some status at the meetings - that must be finally resolved. But if precedent is any guide to us, one would expect that observer status would be, probably, the result of those determinations.

The reason for that of course, is very simple. The honourable member, myself, all honourable members in this Chamber, along with all of the Members of Parliament from Manitoba represent all of the people in Manitoba.

We do not have separate nations within the confines of the province, or of the country, and similarly, with respect to the city of Winnipeg, the honourable member represents a portion of the citizens of the city of Winnipeg in his constituency, as do the rest of us who are fortunate enough to be elected to represent parts of the city of Winnipeg or parts of the province of Manitoba, and that includes all of the people in those constituencies.

So notwithstanding the legitimacy of claims that separate native groups may have with respect to items of peculiar concern to them, whether they be land rights or other items, the basis and the foundation from which you work of course, is that the elected representatives in the House of Commons and in the various Legislatures across Canada take on as part of their responsibility, that form of representation.

Now, against that kind of background, exceptions have been made in the past with respect to native groups, with respect to certainly urban and municipal groups who have been observers at meetings that I have attended, and I'm sure meetings that were attended by a number of my predecessors, having to do with the constitution and/or the economy, and indeed, I think it was our delegation, I know it was our delegation, that in one of the briefs with respect to the economy, made particular reference to native groups not being discussed under the item of welfare, but rather being discussed as a group with an employment problem to see what consensus might emerge from the conference, that particular conference on the economy with respect to native employment, and so I would doubt at this stage if there would be that kind of enlargement to a full delegate status at the upcoming constitutional conferences for any of the groups that we have talked about, but that would not preclude the First Ministers or the Continuing Committee of Ministers from arriving at some means whereby the briefs and the comments of groups, such as the three I have identified, could be heard, presumably by the Continuing Committee of Ministers in their preliminary deliberations leading up to whatever consensus they can arrive at with regard to the agenda topics.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Within the parameters, Mr. Chairman, that the Honourable First Minister sets out for a representative status before the conference, it seems to me that the Indians can make a good claim to be enabled and allowed to participate. They, Mr. Chairman, have some autonomy and some exclusive jurisdiction with respect to physical territories being the reserve territories of this country. They, Mr. Chairman, argue that they should be recognized as being the legitimately and properly elected representatives of those people living within those territories.

They make much the same argument as, I suppose, the newly developed territories, being the Northwest Territories and the Yukon might make for status at such a conference. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, in fairness to these native representatives, that they are right when they assert that their aboriginal rights are the basis upon which all else must be built. I think that I don't want to make representative statements on their behalf, Mr.

Chairman, because that is not my proper place, but I think that they would argue if they were here that their ri ghts essentially precede all others, because essentially they were here first and what has been built in this country by way of territorial jurisdiction is all built on the erosion, the derogation of very fundamental native rights. On that basis, Mr. Chairman, it makes good sense to me to hear what those people think those fundamental and basic rights might be, because then, Mr. Chairman, we are in a position to talk about what rights all the rest might have. Mr.

Chairman, I am not suggesting that there will be harmony in this regard amongst all the members of this House, or indeed all the First Ministers of this country, but I note that at least one other politician, namely, Warren Allmand, the former Liberal Indian Affairs Minister, has taken the position that they should have the right to represent themselves at these conferences and meetings. I believe as a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, that there is a bill pending before the House of Commons put forward by Mr. Allman, calling on the government to give this sort of special recognition to this problem. Mr.

Chairman, I am asking whether Manitoba wouldn't, given the fact that we have a very large native population and we have many reserves within our boundaries, wouldn't be willing to accede to this sort of initiative in order to enable those people to speak for themselves, because, Mr. Chairman, I recognize that the Premier is indeed the Premier of all Manitobans, and I am sure, Mr.

Chairman, that these native leaders would recognize that, except that they see themselves as having certain prerogatives which have been recognized with respect to certain territory in the province, and I think it is true that the Minister can't impose legislation with respect to them, he can't by fiat or regulation impose certain things on them that he could on others, his government could on others. 4794

Monday, June 16, 1980 Having that in mind, Mr. Chairman, I would ask whether Ma nitoba might, fir stly, confer with representatives of the Mani toba native community in order to ascertain their wishes in this regard, and secondly, Mr. Chairman, I would ask whether or not the government will allow special status to native representatives in this province, enabling them to sit on the Constitutional Comm ittee that is to be called into session this summer. This, Mr. Chairman, seems, at the very least, to be appropria te under the circumstances.

So I would ask whether the First Minister can advise me with respect to those two matters? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, on speaking to the second point first, there has been an announcement about the establishment of a Legislative Committee that will have the power to meet between sessions to consider constitutional proposals and to hear briefs, etc. That committee will of necessity, Mr.

Chairman, be a committee of this House, and representatives of any groups in Manitoba, including the native groups, are welcome in deed to make whatever submission that they wish to make to that Legislative Committee as and when it under takes its meetings. I would cer tainly hope, along with the Memb er for Wellington, that the indi vidual native groups in Manitoba would take full advantage of that opportunity to reiterate their case. I say reiterate because some of their case is cer tainly well publicized and well known.

It would be difficult, and I think my honourable friend answers his question when he poses it, how does one accord special membership to a Legislative Commi ttee to a group that is not represented - that is, in the Legislature - in the sense of having a group representation in the Manitoba Legislature. I kn ow that the Member for Wellington, the Member for St. Vital, the Member for Portage, all of the members around this table will ende avour to the best of their abil ity to represent all of their constituents, be they native or otherwise, at those Legislative Committee meetings as and when they occur.

No. 2, with respect to whether or not I, or members of the government, would be prepared to meet with the members of the MIB in Manitoba or other native groups in Manitoba having regard to their proposal, as voiced by the Member for Wellington, that they be accorded delegate status at future federal-provincial conferences, I would be more than happy to meet with any of the groups with respect to that topic. What I am indicating to the Honourable Member for Wellington, however, Mr. Chairman, is that matter is not yet finally resolved.

It will be fur ther di scussed , I dar esay, by the Continuing Committee of Ministers, and it would be my full expec tation that there will be some opportunity, the means for which is not within the control of the pr ovi nce of Ma nitoba, or the government of Manitoba, for native groups to be heard during the course of the ongoing constitutional discussions this summer and this fall.

It gives me the further opportunity to make the point that is not in response to the Member for Wellington's question, that I, for one, certainly do not expect that the contitutional discussions, federal provi ncial, are going to end in September after the First Minister's meeting. I suspect that there is going to be an ongoing series of meetings and that what we will do in September, essentially, is to meet and to register what progress has been made on the 12 agenda items that have placed before the continuing committee of Ministers, and that after the September meeting a further

schedule of meetings will be laid down to discuss matters that are still unresolved; to discuss new matters that may arise as a result of the progress that has been made and we hope that some progr ess will be made over the summer. So I would not want the Member for Wellington, in the course of my answering this, to in any way draw any implication that I expect the conferences are going to be over in September.

I expect quite the opposite, that they are going to take some considerable amount of time, notwithstanding the understandable statement of the Prime Minister that he would like to see as much achieved in September as possible. I would like to see that, too, but contrary to what the Prime Minister has said, I would not regard it as a national disaster of some sort if we didn't reach consensus in all of the items. In fact I would be highly surpris ed if we did reach consensus on all of the items in September. MR. CORRIN: A final point in this regard, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to know whether Manitoba then will be supporting the entrenchment of Indian Treaty status and aboriginal rights in any new constitution that is proposed? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I can only say to the honour able member at the present time that Manitoba traditionally has been one of those provinces that oppos es entrenchment, generally speaking, as a device because it then puts beyond the reach of Parliament and the Legislatures the right to legislate in areas that cannot be contemplated in entrenched areas.

It's a large topic and I do n't expect that that answer, and I don't want that answer to be interpreted as being that we're against all entrenchment, we're not, but in the general discussion of entrenchment I would think that there would be a limi ted number of areas where entrenched provisions would be found in any new constitution that is worked out. With respect to the particular items that the Member for Wellington speaks of, entrenchment of Indian rights, we will have to look at the form that is being suggested by the National Indian Brotherhood and by other native groups to give it our best considera tion.

I would sup pose that our own legislative committee, in due course, will be hearing representations in this same respect and I would hope and expect that all members of the Legislature would give it their best consideration when it is heard. But I would not want to prejudge in any way what the eleven First Ministers of the country would finally be deciding on that or on any other topic. It's beyond my ability to make that determination or even to venture a useful opinion, at this stage, as to what would be agreed and what would not be agreed to; what would be entrenched, what would be unentrenched. MR.

CORRIN: On this point, Mr. Chairman, I would only ind icate that it seems to me that the only way 4795

Monday, June 16, 1980 an aboriginal right can be protected in perpetuity is by way of entrenchment. I know of no other way that these people can be assured that their fundamental rights, those rights which essentially are recognized as having devolved from time immemorial, the rights to the use of certain lands, certains rights and privileges within the context of their own civilization and culture. The only way that those .rights, Mr. Chairman, can be protected is through the auspices of formal recognition in a constitutional document. I suppose I am somewhat bothered, Mr.

Chairman, at hearing the First Minister suggest that entrenchment is not the only appropriate mechanism to protect those very basic and very fundamental rights. I don't wish to enjoin debate but I would ask him how else those rights could be protected if they weren't the subject of entrenchment. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to get into a legal philosophic discussion with the honourable member because I appreciate his point of view and I am sure that point of view, as it is reiterated before the continuing committee and before the First Ministers at their upcoming meetings, will be reflected upon and reflected upon carefully.

But on the general topic of entrenchment, the honourable member is as well aware as I, he being trained in the law, that the so-called fundamental human rights of individual citizens of Canada have been extremely well protected, I would say to the envy of most other jurisdictions in the world, without having an entrenched bill of rights in our constitution.

As I say, I don't want to start a debate on that because that's a rather more esoteric topic, but I merely point that out to him to indicate that under our system of jurisprudence in this country, built and developed after 113 years with, I would say, a great deal of success, that there is not too much that we can learn by way of protection of individual civil and human rights for the citizens of this country from other jurisdictions which have tried the route of the entrenched bill of rights. Now that's a very general comment.

My honourable frier1d has heard me make that statement before and I hope it is not one that will stimulate long debate. MR. CORRIN: I think that the First Minister has deviated somewhat, though, at a tangent from the substance of our discussion. Mr. Chairman it was my understanding that we were discussing the entrenchment of native status, treaty status and aboriginal rights in the constitution document, not a special bill of rights. That is a matter for discussion in itself, Mr.

Chairman, but what I have been discussing, what I hoped that the Minister would respond to was whether or not Manitoba would support the entrenchment of certain basic native rights - for instance, their treaty rights - in a constitutional document. That, Mr. Chairman, would give them a legal assurance in perpetuity that those treaties would be both recognized and honoured by all the forthcoming generations of Canadians. That, Mr.

Chairman, as I understand it, is their wish and I've asked the First Minister whether he visualized any other mechanism as being capable of providing that assurance, other than the entrenchment approach. We weren't discussing at this point, Mr. Chairman, whether or not a bill of rights should be entrenched in the constitution but rather whether Indian Treaty status and aboriginal rights should be entrenched in the constitution, recognition of the special status of native peoples in our countr;; that is the question, Mr. Chairman, I put to the First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairm<:1n, I was merely trying to indicate in a general way, as my honourable friend will appreciate, that the fundamental human and individual rights of all citizens in this country, be they native people or others, which go beyond and, some might say, even transcend a particular item such as treaty rights and so on, have been extremely well protected in Canada over the past 11 3 years and, as a general proposition, I was indicating to him that the list of items that need to be entrenched, whether by way of a bill of rights, on the one hand, or whether by way of unanimity agreement in specific sections of the constitution, I would expect would be a small number.

MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a) - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I did have a couple of questions to ask of the First Minister. From the remarks that have just gone on, I wanted to make just one short statement, to let him know that his views on the entrenchment of a bill of rights are not exclusively on the government side, that there is at least one member of the Opposition who shares his views on that matter. Perhaps more, I cannot speak for the others, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to know from the First Minister whether the amount of 885,900 was all expended in the 1979- 80 year. MR.

LYON: I am attempting to see if I have got a wrap-up answer to that in here. I'll have to take that as notice, Mr. Chairman, but I'll be happy to get the figures for my honourable friend. There have been some salaries that were not paid because of disengagements and so on, and others, additional positions, so how it nets out on the bottom line, I would have to get information on, and I'll get it back to the honourable member. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, the next question was going to be, if the amount had not all been expended, in which lines was there a shortfall, and by how much?

The other question I had of the First Minister, were there any Special Warrants issued under this department last year? MR. LYON: I can't recall any, but that is only memory. We would have to check with the Department of Finance, with their list of Special Warrants. I can get that information as well. But I can't recall any offhand. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rossmere. MR. PARASIUK: I'm the Member for Transcona. You're batting a thousand. Just because I called the Chairperson the Member for Morris once, I think he's 4796

Monday, June 16, 1980 using this opportunity to get back at me, and I can appreciate his desire for revenge. I have a couple of quest ions I want to raise about the constitution. I wasn't here when the First Minister indi cated that there would be a Legislative Committee meeting when the session end ed, and I haven't seen any reports on it. I'm wondering if the Minister could take a couple of minutes just to indicate whether he expects the committee to hear any briefs from Manitobans before the September meeting of First Ministers? MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, num ber one, we anno unced last Tuesday that there would be a resolution to be placed before the House before the con clusion of proceedings, to establish the committee to sit between sessions. Number two, there will have to be, of course, the appropriate discussions between the two House Leaders on the membership, of the committee size, etc. and to ascertain mutual desires about times of sitting and so on.

Number three, because of the intens ive discuss ions that will be going on this summer involving princ ipally the Attorney-General, who is a member of the Continuing Committee of Ministers, it may well be impossible to have the advantage of his advice at that legislative table if the committee were meeting at any time prior to the first week in September.

Number four, and I'm not saying this as being etched in stone in any way at all, because I think it is a matter for mutual discussion between the government and the opposition, the experience that I have had in the past, at least, indicates that it facilitates the work of the committee if there can be placed before the committee, as I expect there will be, by early September, the concrete proposals upon which debate is taking place at that time, not with the view that the committee would be asked to pass upon something that had already been decided in the sense that it is etched in stone, because my own experience, again, has been over the years, going back to the Fulton-Favreau and so on, that no matter how much agreement you may think you've got, sometimes that agreement falls apart.

The experience I recall more particularly was that of a Legislative Committee of the early Sixties, when we referred the amending formula to a Committee of the House and the committee was then able to deal with that formula as it was being discussed, so that the committee didn't feel that it's deliberations were useless in the sense that here was a concrete proposal that was up for discussion.

Regrettably, that proposal did not receive the sanction of the province of Quebec back in the early Sixties, so the discussions that we had at that time, while they were helpful, they did not help resolve the impasse that occurred with the province of Quebec.

The committee will be established in such a way as to encourage the receipt of briefs from individuals, groups, associations, all other interested groups in the province of Manitoba, and I think it will have to be discussed by the two House Leaders as to suitable dates for the beginning of those meetings, to solicit briefs, and whether it would then be more productive after the First Ministers' meeting in September to go into an inten sive series of the Legislative Committee, or whether there might be some use in having at least preliminary meetings of the committee before the September meeting takes place.

As I say, there is nothing cast in stone on this at all, and we would be certainly prepared to reflect on any reasonable suggestions that come forward. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairpers on, I would like to suggest to the First Minister that he very seriously consider having some preliminary meetings of this Legislative Committee before the September meeting, not to discuss the mechanics as much, but to get a bit of input from the people of Manitoba as to the values regarding Canada. We will undo ubtedly have groups coming forward pu shing for entrenchment of certain rights, because they value them strongly.

It is important to get a feeling for what people's values are. I think we will have other people coming forward, In dian groups, valuing aboriginal rights, and we should share their expressions of value. We will have other groups coming forward to express their values as well, and certainly we'll have members of the committee interacting with the population in terms of putting forward certain values about the country as well.

I would like to just raise one as an example, that I haven 't heard raised as much as I would like in the past year or so regarding Canadian federalism, and that's the concept of equalization. It's a critical determining characteristic of Canada's brand of federalism. It's not done in the States, and it's somet hing that I'm very proud of as a Canadian. It's not something that's entrenched, it's some thing that exists by way of statute and agreement between province s and the federal government. I believe it's tremendo usly important; I believe it should be reinforced, and I put that forward as a value.

If one accepts that value, and if one accepts equalization as a necessity for Canada into the future, as a desirable characteristic of our form of federalism, then in

part it becomes partly mechani cal, partly symbolic, as to whether equalization is put into the constitution, or whether in fact it is kept possibly in the same form as we have right now, federal/provincial agreement and federal enabling legislat ion, keeping it at the forefront of our values as part of our continuing political process in Canada. I guess the one reason why I bring it forward, is I think it will in fact influence us fairly substantially when we start talking about division of powers and when we start talking about issues of centr alization versus issues of decentralization.

When one thinks of the fair amount of money that goes into equaliza tion, in addition to the shared cost funding by Ottawa, it's something in the order of at least 12 billion, I believe, this last year, then you're talking about a very substantial amount, which I think has a substantial impact on provinces, especially those provinces who, for the time being, may not have that much. If we're talking about building a country, we're a very young country; we have been in existence for 11 3 years.

There are countries that have been in existence for 1, 000 years, for 1, 500 years, and for 2,000 years, and just as surely as is time itself, Alberta, which has a lot of wealt h no w, will un doubtedly years down the line, 500 or 600 years, it may not have the wealth -(I nterjection)- or 15. 4797

Monday, June 16, 1980 You know , in 1932, Alberta was bankrupt, Saskatchewan was bankrupt, and Manitoba was on the verge of bankruptcy. Now Alberta is in a pretty good position and Saskatchewan is in a pretty good position. We're not on the verge of bankruptcy; we're in that position that we. in fact, may find that we have a particular burst. I guess the most graphic illustration of how circumstances may change very quickly concerns Newfoundland. Newfoundland joined Confederation in 1949 and really started off being bankrupt, stayed bankrupt.

The thing that I find quite irritable and quite objectionable is the behaviour of the present premier of Newfoundland, who is pumping Newfoundland nationalist politics, and I guess maybe it sells well locally, but frankly it's quite unfair and it's quite inaccurate historically. Peckford is talking about Hibernia; he's talking about some short-term wealth that may exist for 30 or 40 years. It may exist for a shorter period of time than that. Yet he seems to be using this opportunity to grab that wealth and forget about the concept of sharing, which I think has made this country a lot stronger.

I don't think we could have survived as a country through the Thirties if there had not been sharing. Newfoundland couldn't have been part of Confederation; they wouldn't have improved their educational system as much as they had; they wouldn't have done a number of things that Newfoundland has done if there hadn't been equalization.

What you tend to hear, out of Premiers especially, is this concern that they have their chance to get all the wealth from their own resources, and that concerns me a bit because equalization payments are made by the federal government to provinces, they are not made from one province to another. Given the circumstances of today and over the next 30 or 40 years, I would suspect that the federal government will have to have some access to resource revenue for purposes of equalization.

Now, I didn't want to get into the mechanics of it that much, but I just point out that if one values equalization a lot, then you are prepared to provide the federal government with some access to resource reve nue, especially to provide for equalization. If you don't value equalization very much, then you may not be prepared to do that, and that's why I think it is important for the preliminary hearings to take place, so that people can come forward and express some of their values regarding Canada.

I hope that the preliminary hearings would try, and this would require some good work on the part of the chairperson of the Legislative Committee, would try and focus more on sort of basic principles regarding federalism and values that we have about the type of federalism that we have. It will provide some difficulty for the chairperson and for the committee members, but if we want it to get back out in the open, on a preliminary basis, before the September meeting, I think it would be useful to the government and I think it would be useful to the Legislature.

I think that it's really quite important for us, as politicians, to feel that we are, in fact, part of a process of nation building, when in fact our immediate constituents are part of the nation but, at the same time, are our electors at the provincial level.

I think the easy thing to do would be to try and play up provincial nationalistic values and then try and blow those out of proportion, while at the same time, weakening the overall nation, the overall country, and weakening some values that I think we all hold very dearly, and that we possibly don't give as much attention to, as provincial politicians, because we assume that in Ottawa , at the parliamentary level, these values are given attention to. We do have a division of labour.

We tend to concentrate on provincial issues, by and large; parliament and the federal government tends to concentrate on national issues.

But at the same time, when you get involved in this type of a process, as I think we are going to undergo over the next two years - and I do think it's going to take longer, and I agree with the First Minister on this - that we must all be conscious of the fact that we are nation building, and that when somebody from outside of Canada asks us what we are when we're travelling outside of Canada, and they ask us who we are, what we are, our first response is not to say that we are Manitobans, our first response, surely, is to say that we are Canadian, and that's what we see ourselves first and foremost as.

That's why I would hope that we would have these preliminary meetings of the legislative committee to get at some of these points. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)- pass - the Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Before we leave this item, Mr. Chairman, I, too, would like to take this opportunity to address myself once again to the constitution and the upcoming round of constitutional talks. I would like to explore with the First Minister, Mr. Chairman, what position this government will be taking with respect to the proposal that there be a regional House established within this country.

I think I would particularly like to find out whether or not Manitoba will be supportive of the proposal to convert the Senate to such a body, and if so, Mr. Speaker, I would be interested to hear the general terms of reference which this government would accept in this regard. I believe there were some reports from last week's discussions in Ottawa that Manitoba had aligned itself with certain other provinces in this respect.

If not, I stand to be corrected, but it seems to me that Manitoba was cited as one of those provinces that was wishing this matter to have active discussion, and perhaps that describes better what Manitoba's position was. If that is so, Mr. Chairman, what would the context of that active discussion be from Manitoba's point of view? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Wellington raises the question of the Senate.

There have been, of course, a number of interesting proposals that have been laid before previous meetings of the continuing committee of constitutional Ministers with respect to reform, change, alteration of name and alteration of method of appointment to the senate. Our general position has been, and I stress the word general, that there is room in a federal parliament in a country of this geographic and population size, for a second 4798

Monday, June 16, 1980 Chamber. I think the legitimate concern that attracts the attention of all legislators, provincial and federal, is No. 1, how to make that Chamber more truly reflective of provi ncial jurisdictions. Some suggestions have been that there should be an equal nu mber of senators; th at is the province, for instance, of PEI would get the same numb er of senators as the province of Quebec, and/or Ontario.

That wouldn't necessarily find universal favour, but it would be following the numerical process that has gone in the States: One method of assuring that the membership of the Senate would at least be equal to start with, from all of the provinces of the country.

No. 2, there has been a suggestion from a number of sou rces, I think mo re recently a former distinguished Premier of the province, Duff Roblin, now Senator Roblin, made a pretty well thought-out speech in Calgary not too long ago about the desirability of electing the Senate, and electing it on the basis of having the elections for the Senate coincide with each provincial election, so that when the provincial electors were going to the polls to be voting for the memb ersh ip of the Legislative Ass em bly, they would also be vo ting for the membership of the Senate from that province.

And that is a suggestion that is not only novel, it would change the present totally appointed nature of the Senate to one that is democratically elected, and perhaps some longtime opponents of the Senate, as it presently exists, some from my honourable friend's party, some from all other parties, might find the Sena te in its elected stance as more of a meaningful kind of institution in the parliamentary system.

There have also been suggestions in the past - and I participated in some in the 1968-69 discussions - whereby if the Senate were to remain as an appoint ed body, that some of the powers of appointment, say for half of the members, would be given over to the provinces, to the governments of the provinces. And so, I mention those as only three examples of some of the wide ranging propositions that, from time to time, have been put forward for changes and reforms in the Sena te itself.

I am not one who happens to believe that changing the name of an institution is nearly so important as perhaps altering the function and making it mor e truly reflective of what it's supposed to do. So we have taken, in the past, although it has not been the su bject of intense discussion as yet, a pretty flexible attitude about certain of the suggested reforms that could be made to the Senate, because I do believe that, No. 1, it is worthwhile in maintaining, No. 2, it does not have to be maintained in its present form at all.

It could be partially elected, partially appointed by the provinces, or perhaps even a combination of the two, so that there would be some continuity and some greater assurance that the appointees were more truly reflective of the people whom they represent in the Senate Chamber. This is not a matter that was discussed at any length, if at all, at the meeting on Monda y, but it certainly is one of the items on the agenda, along with the Supreme Court, that will be up for discussion.

Fo llowing along on what the Mem ber for Transcona said, I would hope that delegations that come before our Legislative Comm ittee would deal with that as a principle as we ll, along with the principle of equalization and others that easily fall into that category, and I certainly subscribe to his view, as I'm sure every premier of Manitoba has from the days of John Bracken, who was one of the principal architects of the concept of equalization.

But equalization is now part and parcel and part of the lifeblood of this nation, in that we made a conscious decision as a country, well over 40 years ago, that there would be some sharing of taxation benefits across the country in order to ensure some kind of mo re equa l oppor tu nity for citizens, regardless of the particular region of the country from which they come.

Because what the Member for Transcona said is axiomatic; it's true that there are rhythms in the economic prog ress of different parts of the country at different times, and he obs erved what I observed in a brief that we presented to one of the last of the constitutional conferences. Indeed, I think it was at the Energy Conf erence last November when I made precisely the same obs ervation, I think, as the Member for Transcona, that there was a time which we can recall when the provi nce of Saskatchewan, but more particularly the province of Alberta, reneged on its debt obligations.

Man itoba, and here only will I disagree with him, Manitoba has never reneged on any of its debt obligation. Manitoba has never verged on bankru ptcy, regardless of what administration was in office. Manitoba has had a very solid record in that regard, down through the years.

But these rhythms of economic development do take place, and you need some governor or regulator within the system to ensure that when a particular region of the country is going through one of the valleys before it gets up to one of the peaks, that in terms of enjoying the quality of life in this country and some approach of equality of opportunity, that there be available some sharing of tax revenues among the different provinces and the different regions.

I think that that is a principle that is - I won't say un iversally accepted because I know that there are some provinces that don't feel the same proprietary air, if I may use that term, that Manitoba and Manitobans feel about equalization, because it was John Bracken who was one of the principal architects of that principle after the Rowell-Sirois Commission Report came out in the late '30s.

So when the Member for Transcona talks about equ alization being ack nowledged as one of the fundamental principles that provides lubrication for this federal country of ours, I think he is quite right, and it is for that reason of course that the topic of equa lization is among the 12 th at have been assigned to the continuing comm ittee of Min isters for further discussion.

I think he would also agree with me, as we move into another series of renegotiations on the concept of equalization, that it would be wrong to entrench the formula of equa lization because that has to change to reflect the changing social and economic conditions across the country. It's got to be kept elastic.

But for the principle to be mentioned in a constitution is not something that would find great disfavour with the present government of Manitoba, nor do I believe with any of our predecessors, if that would do nothing in turn to restrict it, or in any way to prejudice the legitimate negotiations that go on 4799

Monday, June 16, 1980 every five years or so on what should be included in the form�la. So we · 'il ave, thus far, tried to adopt a position which would take account of a number of very good and very interesting ideas that are offered with respect, first of all, to the Senate, and on equalization I don't see any great divergence of view between what was stated by the Member for Transcona and the position of the government at the present time. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a) - the Member for Ste. Ros·e. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to advise the First Minister that I agree with some of his positions on entrenchment of human rights in the Act. It's not very often that I do agree with the First Minister, but this is one point that I do, I agree with him. I want to ask the Minister, I would also recommend that we do have some committee hearings prior to his leaving so he can have the benefit of some of the ideas that may be coming forward.

That is one of my concerns that we would have the government of the day, whichever stripe of government that we do have, dealing on such a fundamental issue as the Constitution, committing the province to certain agreements which may not be acceptable to a large number of the population. So I would ask the First Minister what would be the process, if we do have legislative hearings prior to his meeting with the other Ministers in September, and again, I know that legislative committees don't necessarily have to do what information is coming before that Committee.

I know that it is not obligatory on the government of the day to accept any recommendation that is put before any committee.

So I am wondering whether before we go into a final agreement as to sharing of powers, such as the changes in the Senate, the equalization, whether we will be having a special session to discuss this whole matter, because I know that my experience has been that while you do have some groups that come before a legislative committee, there are a lot of people who do not come forward and will on the other hand get in touch with the individual MLAs, individual representatives, to give them the benefit of their advice during a session on what stands to take.

I have been exposed to that in this very session in regards to Bill No. 2, I think it is, Projet De Loi, en franc;:ais, en langue franc;:aise, traduction, and I have made myself available to some of the people who wish to express their views on this topic, such as the translation of English to French of the statutes and Hansard, and so on. These are some of the things that I would like to have done before we commit the proyirice tq C!flY long-term entrenchment. I want to get the fullest exposure to the views of all the people.

I know that just a legislative committee, you can go out to the major places, you will have a few people coming out, many are vested interest groups, but you don't have the rank and file grass roots views. In the main you get views from vested interest groups, and I don't have to mention any names, but I am sure that the First Minister will know many .of them right off the top of hi{hea d.

On the matter of equalization, I believe that the First Minister has already taken a position, which I view as perhaps opposed to equalization, when he made the statement that he was opposed to - and I am not saying that I am supporting of this - that he was opposed to any taxation of exports of energy. I wish the First Minister would enlighten us a little more on that particular topic. As far as the Senate reform, in the second Chamber I have nmi:er. been ¥t1rY enthused about an appointed watch dog over the people, elected democratically.

In my opinion, it is a hold-over of the old royalty system, noble system, where the nql:Jles or the royalty wanted to protect their vested interest and did not trust the common people elected to the House of Commons. · I wonder if the First Minister could pe rhqp s elaborate on some of the points that I have raised. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honourable First Minis!er. MR. L VON: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Ste. Rose dealt first of all with the question of the process by which the legislative committee would govern its affairs.

I believe I indicated that, because of the nature of this committee, the logical thing would be for the House Leaders to get together, not only on the personnel of the committee, but to have some general discussion about times of meeting and sq on, the House Leader for the government, of course, being Mr. Mercier, who is very actively involved in the process of the Continuing Committee of Ministers' Meetings this summer. We are open to reasonable suggestion about times of committee meetings and so on. I, for one, just to make the point again, Mr.

Chairman, do not expect that the constitutional discussions are going to end in September. I think that it is part of an ongoing process that we are going to be going through, and I think there will be ample opportunity, because I share the view of the Member for Ste.

Rose, that if we are to arrive, say in a period of 18 months, 2 years, 3 years, whatever the term may be, at the fundamental amendments to or reforms in the Constitution, then these should be discussed as widely as possible by the people of Manitoba through the instrumentality of the legislative committee, or perhaps even ultimately by a bill or a resolution of the House, that would permit full debate to take place with further discussions to take place if that resolution were to be placed before a committee.

But that is crossing a number of bridges before we come to them; we haven't even begun to erect the pilings on some of those bridges yet, go we better not cross them. I agree that the input of opinion that we can get is important, and have over the years, as the Member far Ste. Rose is aware, given the undertaking that when it was appropriate, that is when the negotiations got into a position where they appeared to be productive of some result, that we should have a committee to monitor those discussions and to hear briefs.

It would serve no useful purpose to say if we had had a committee two years ago, we would have been looking at a number of proposals that are now stale, that don't carry the sanction even necessarily of some of the people who proposed them. So that is why I think the time is ripe in the 480()

Monday, June 16, 1980 events of man to have our committee now when there appears to be a genuine desire on the part of all eleven governments in Canada to make some noticeable progress in some of the moot items that are before the committee. That is number one. Numb er two, on the principle of equalization, the member thought he detected an attitude on my part when I made mention of Hydro taxes by the federal government as being, I think I used the words casual marauding of the Treasury of Manitoba Hydro, or of the people of Manitoba.

I think that is because it is in a special category and tha t th e people of Manitoba are the ones who have made the full and the sole investment in the Hydro resource in Manitoba.

That being the case, unl ess the federal government can demonstrate that these moneys, for instance, tha t they would prop ose under the hypothesis that they may be taxing them, unless they can demonstrate that these moneys were to be used for some such purpose, such as equalization, rather than to lessen the federal deficit, which is another use to which they might be put, then I would think that all Manitobans, including the Member for Ste. Rose, would be pretty protective of our Hydro resource in terms of how any federal tax moneys from that resou rce would be used.

That is not intended to be, nor is it, an all-inclusive answer to his question, but rather to indicate that Quebec, Ontario, and Manito ba, and probably B.C. as well, are four provinces with a surplus of hydro electric generating capacity, with some potential down the road, which have to watch very carefully that the federal government, under whatever guise, does not move in to take special advantage of the resource base that we have built up here. Now the third point, his last point - I am sorry I had it in my mind when I started out. Your last point? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose, your last point. MR.

ADAM: think I spoke about the Senate, which I was not very enthused with in its present form. MR. LYON: The Senate, I think I have made it clear in what I said previously, that I think all of us should seek through the legislative committee ideas as to how the Senate can be made more reflective of the provincial interest in Manitoba, and we should have our minds open, I think, to consider provincial appointments, election, a numb er of items that have been sugg ested that might conduce to that end. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I thank the Mi nister for his information.

I am pleased that at least we are going to have a legislative committee, I believe the first since the election of this government, that we have had an all-party committee, legislative committee to go out and hear the views of the people, something that we hav en't seen . I kno w there have been appointed comm ittees tha t went out and heard representations from the people, but I believe there should have been some, perhaps on Education. It seems to me that was a very fundamental issue, and I thought perhaps there should have been all-party committees set up in order to have . . . MR.

CHAIRMAN: To correct the Member for Ste. Rose, there was a committee sat between sessions made up of all members, to look at Education and the revision of Bill 20 and 21, but it did not go to the rural areas, as maybe that was suggested, it was all down here. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, I am aware that there was a committee set up, but I feel that there certainly were not enough meetings out in the country, because people in the rural areas, by and large, don't motor to Winnip eg. MR.

LYON: If I could just interject, it would be our intention certainly to have the legislative committee on the constitution travel to selected points outside of Winnipeg to make sure that the full access is available to people in our major regional centres to make briefs to the committee. MR. ADAM: That is the point that I really want to stress, that, sure, there was a committee appointed, but the meetings were held here and I am sure that the input of the people in the rural areas really was not exposed to the committee.

I am pleased that at least we will have an all-party comm ittee to go out, and I hope that there will be many meetings in all areas, because people are just not prone to travel, even though there may be very fundamental and important issues at stake, people just do not travel that far. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: I just have a brie f ques tion, Mr. Chairman, to the First Min ister.

I wonder if in the discussion of the agenda, there was any consideration given to discussing the parameters in respect to some of our cities, in view of the fact that some of them are larger than some of our provinces, and whether this shouldn't be part of the agenda; in view of the fact that some of them are running into some very great difficulties, and they are at the mercy of the provincial good nature, so to speak.

I realize they are a creature of the provinces, but nevertheless time has changed since 18 67 and possibly this should be an area, and I wonder if the First Minister has a comment to make in that regard. MR. LYON: I will try to be as brief, Mr. Chairman, as the Member for Kildonan.

Not as a specific item, but I would certainly expect that item would be included in the division of powers, because it has to reflect what he has quite rightly pointed out, that the urb anization of the country that has taken place since 18 67 is a socio-economic fact of life in the country today, and while it is not identified by my recollection - I don't have the sheet in front of me with the twelve topics - but my recollection is that urban concentration as such is not identified as such.

Certainly it would be a legitimate item to be discussed under at least one of the headings, which would be division of power. In that same cont ext I would expect that the desire of the Canadian urban 4801

Monday, June 16, 1980 association and of the other municipal groups to be accorded ·observer status would be dealt with as it has been in the past by having some mu nicipal reps appear as observers at some of the meetings. MR. FOX: One other question - the meeting that will be taking place, was there discussed whether there would be observers from opposition parties, and what would be their status if it was discussed? MR. LYON: No discussion, Mr.

Chairman, on that topic, although it is not a new one, and again there has been precedent in the past for Leaders of the Opposition to be part of provincial delegations as observers.

Whether there would be any enlargement in that role if, for instance, there was to be at some stage, two or three years down the road, of the First Ministers confirming what the new constitution would be, and to have in effect a council of Confederation to sanction that, one can visualize th at kind of circumstance where it might be appropriate to accord delegate status to the various leaders of the opposition and so on, but I think at the working stage that would have to depend meeting by meeting on the consensus of the Continuing Committee and/ or the First Min isters. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a)-pass.

Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 1, 026,700 for Executive Council-p ass. Committee rise. SUPPLY - ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to page 35 of the Main Est imates, Depart ment of Economic Development and Tourism, Resol ution No. 47, Item 1. Executive, (

a) Min ister's Compensation - the Honourable Minister. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, th e programs of this department constitute a determined and conc erted application of technology and skill to minimize the negative trends in our economy and to build on its emerg ing strength. Accordingly, before I deal with the programs we will be mounting in this fiscal year, I intend to sketch briefly our economic situation as we enter the new decade.

First, I would like to review some of what I believe economists refer to as agg regates, stat istics reflecting the performance of the economy as a whole. Then I will turn to each of the major sectors in turn. Turning then to the aggregates, the end of the decade was ch aracterized by soft or poor economic performance compared to the average over the decade for the provinces, including Manitoba, which were not experiencing a resource boom. This is shown in virtuall y all of the major agg regate indicators. For instance, looking at the GDP, Manitoba's growth rate averaged 3.4 over the 10 years, 19 70-1979.

This was below the average for Canada, which was 4.3 percent. Our rates exceeded that of Canada, as a whole, only in 1971 and 1975. It was under 2 perce nt in only th ree years however: 1970, 1975, 19 79. 19 70 and 1975 and 19 79 were the poorest years in terms of overall growth. Our economy grew at only 0.6 percent in 1970 and 1. 4 percent in 1975 and 1979. The labour force and employment series are another case in point. Our labour force growth averaged 2.3 over the decade, again below the average for Canada, 4.2. Our rate was below Canada's in every year except 1976.

Employment growth averaged 2. 1 over the decade compared to Canada's 2.9. We reached the Canadian Canada level in 1974 and exceeded it in 1976. In both 1978 and 1979 employment grew at rates above our 10 year average. While generally our employment rate has been 1. 5 points below Canada's and the third lowest of the provinces, the 19 78 rates, 6.5 for Manitoba, and 8.4 for Canada were the highest of the decade. 1979 showed a 1.1 point improvement for Ma nitoba and a 0.9 point improvement for Canada. The final one of these series is investment, Mr. Chairman.

The investment data have been pretty well covered over the various previous occasions. The gist of our record is that we are the only government in Canada that has been able to reduce public investment. Public investment dropped from 40 percent of the total to 28.5, so of course the increase in total are bound to be smaller. Year after year, Mr. Chairman, the investment in Hydro development in the north, public investment, accounted for 25-30 or more of the total investment of the province. That investment out-runs electricty demands and has to be halted.

When the investment of the magnitude is halted, the growth in total investment invariably falls. Our private investment growth, however, is near the average for Canada and above the average for the central provinces of Quebec and Ontario for 1978 and 1979. Turning now to the outlook for 1980, and I refer to the conference board data, Mr. Chairman, and those data are revised every qua rter, our growth rate this year - that's the gr owth dome stic product - increased over last year's and, with Saskatchew an, will be the only one of two provinces to show an increase in 1980.

While at 1.8 percent, it will still be below our average for the 19 70's, ours will exceed those of every province but Saskatchewan and Alb erta. The growth rate for the Canadian labour force is forecast to decline for all provinces except for Quebec, Saskatachewan and British Columbia. This decline is expected to be a co ntinuing phenomena refle cting th e stabiliz ation and participation rates and the entry of the postwar baby boom into the workforce. Employment growth is forecast to slow down even though the Conference Board at the same time forecasts the growth rate of output to increase.

At any rate, our forecast rate is above the rate forecast for Ontario. I should note that one province boasts a forecast increase - only one - boasts a forecast increase in the emp loyment gr owt h rate. The unemplo yment rate is forecast to remain the same this year at 5.4. The 1980 investment intentions were released by Statistics Canada on April 2nd, along with the preliminary 197 9 figures and the final ones for 1978. The trend of increasing concentration of private 4802

Monday, June 16, 1980 investment in the three western provinces continued. Mr. Chairman, their share of the total has risen to 39 percent and their share of the private to 42.4. This means that comparisons to so-called Canadian average must be made with caution. Out total investment is forecast to increase by 5 percent, and virtually all of this is made up of 7 percent incr ease in private investment. This forecast growth rate in priv ate inv estment is more than dou ble the 2.7 growth rate for 1979. I must note, Mr.

Chairman, that these figures were based on the survey taken some months ago before the latest rounds of dramatic hikes in in terest rates. The impact of uncertainty surrounding interest and exchange rates may be some qualification in the investment intentions of private business. To sum up, Mr. Chairman, this review of the major economic ind icators points out that 1980 appears to be shaping up to be a continuation of the recovery of at least the last two years. Now I would like to review each of the major sectors of the economy. The sectors I intend to review, Mr.

Chairman, are primary, construction, tertiary, and I will emph asize tourism and manufacturing. The primary sector includes mining, forestry, fishing and trapping but is dominated by agriculture. The primary sector accounted for 11 .9 percent of the total employment in Manitoba in 19 79. Agriculture emp loyed 46,000, 10.2 percent of the employment in the province in 19 79. Farm cash rece ip ts in Manitoba in 19 79 were 1. 3 billion, repres enting an inc rease of 16 .2 over the level in 19 78. This incr ease was slightly lower than the incr ease of 17 .2 for Canada as a whole.

This year, as we are also painfully aware, Mr. Chairman, our agricultural sector, both livestock and crops, is being very hard hit by drought. While it is not for my department to make predictions in agriculture, some reduction in farm cash receipts is expected. In 19 79, the value of min eral pr oduction in Manitoba totalled 600.2 mi llion, which was an incr ease of 28.3 percent over the 19 78 level. The major metals, nickel, copper and zinc account for the bulk of the value of the mineral production.

Although zinc and copper production declined somewhat in real terms, the value of total metal production in Manitoba in 19 79, marking a recovery in the world metal prices, increased by 36.4 percent over 1978, because of the recovery of the world metal prices. The construction sector accounted for 5.5 of the total employment in Manitoba in 19 79. Employment in the construction sector was at a level of 25,000 in 19 79. This was a decline of 1, 000 from the level of 19 73, but equal to the annual average level of employment in the construction sector for the period of 1970 to 19 75.

Activity in the construction sector declined in 1979. Statistics Canada data ind icated that the total construction expenditures, capital and repair, in Manitoba at 1. 4 billion in 19 79, will have declined by 3.3 percent from the 19 78 levels. 19 80 intentions are for an increase of 4.0 percent from 19 79 levels. The slow growth in this sector is largely attributed to the general economic slowdown, both in Canada and U.S. The record high level of interest rates, a decline in housing and construction and deferral of projects related to hydro development as a result of excess production activity.

Like construction in general, housing

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-80a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 80a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bcda761128bce0447961e506a1289ba9364b1c66

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