April 9, 2003 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 12

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Gander.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This past weekend, I attended a dinner in honour of Mr. Noel Rideout who, for

nearly thirty-five years, has been a volunteer member of the Gander Fire

Department. Although November will mark his official thirty-five year

anniversary with Gander Fire Rescue, he turned over his responsibility as Fire

Chief on January 29 of this year.

Mr. Rideout plans to stay on with the fire station as a radio operator until

he works his full thirty-five years, and then he plans to volunteer at the Cape

Breton Burn Camp helping burned children.

The last of the original firefighters who joined when the town fire

department was formed on November 18, 1968, Mr. Rideout's hard work and

dedication has been outstanding. In 1986, he became Fire Chief at Gander Fire

Department and over the years has held many positions within the department.

Besides working many hours fighting fires, he was heavily involved in the Arrow

Air Crash and worked hard to help stranded passengers after the 9-11 World Trade

Centre attack.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to sincerely thank and congratulate Mr. Rideout on

his thirty-five years of dedication and volunteer service to the Gander Fire

Department, to the Town of Gander and surrounding communities. Without the help

of volunteers like Noel, many services and events in communities around our

Province just would not be possible.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise this afternoon to note the passing in late February of

Patrick Ryall, a long-time resident of Mount Pearl and a dedicated employee of

Canada Post for thirty-seven years, until his retirement in November, 2002.

Patrick was a dedicated volunteer in the City of Mount Pearl where he served

as a coach with the Mount Pearl Minor Baseball Association during the 1980s and

for the past decade as the Association's official statistician. In the 1960s,

Pat was a star baseball player with Holy Cross in the St. John's Senior

Baseball League. Known as a baseball trivia expert, Pat's quick recollection

of events provincially was only matched by his absolute devotion to and his

knowledge of the New York Yankees.

On behalf of all baseball fans in Mount Pearl, and all those who worked with

Pat Ryall at the Mount Pearl Post Office, I wish to offer condolences to his

wife Caroline, his daughter Kelly, his son Patrick, and his mom Elizabeth. The

City of Mount Pearl has lost a wonderful volunteer and baseball in Newfoundland

and Labrador has lost a builder and a great former player.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge and congratulate the

Mariner Resource Opportunities Network for receiving one of the Downhomer's

first annual Port of Call Awards for their Web site: www.AroundTheBay.ca.

Mr. Speaker, Port of Call Awards are a showcase of the best Newfoundland and

Labrador oriented Web sites in the Province. AroundTheBay.ca received this award

for its overall quality, ensuring visual and editorial content, and its general

popularity with the Web viewing public. In short, it is an award of excellence.

This excellent Web site, Mr. Speaker, was developed here in this Province, in

Conception Bay North. It provides a portal to various businesses and

organizations along the Baccalieu Trail, and is designed specifically to attract

tourists to the region.

Mr. Speaker, the world Web site is an astounding communications tool and is

perhaps the most popular form of information sharing. In today's Web based

society, it is important to use this incredible tool and to take advantage of

the opportunities it creates. And, Mr. Speaker, that is just what Mariner

Resource Opportunities Network has done.

On behalf of all members of this House, I congratulate them both on receiving

the Port of Call Award, and for taking the initiative to promote tourism in the

region.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to offer my sincere congratulations to Vicki Flood,

a young woman in my district who was recently awarded the Margaret Davis

Memorial Award for the Provincial Female Athlete of the Year. This award was

presented at the Annual Provincial Sport Awards Banquet on March 22, 2003.

This award follows an extremely successful year of tennis play for Vicki.

Remarkably, Vicki did not lose a set in the provincial tennis play during 2002

and she captured championships in Newfoundland and beyond. She won the Triple

Crown at last summer's senior provincials, won the gold medal at the Atlantic

Outdoor Championships, and placed first in the Atlantic Canadian Circuit. She

also advanced to the fourth round in singles and to the quarter-finals in

doubles at the Junior Nationals. I understand that she is presently out of the

Province representing us at another tournament.

I would like the House to join with me today in offering congratulations to

Vicki.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I rise this afternoon to inform this hon. House

about an exciting new initiative of the Department of Education which will

present an enriched learning opportunity to students throughout Newfoundland and

Labrador.

The internationally acclaimed International Baccalaureate Diploma Program is

offered exclusively at ten United World Colleges worldwide, and Lester B.

Pearson Collegiate in British Columbia is one of these renown institutions.

Since 1974, the Province has partnered with Lester B. Pearson Collegiate, in

offering one scholarship annually to a student from this Province. Recipients of

these scholarships have come from all regions of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, in 2000, Holy Heart of Mary High School in St. John's became

one of 1,425 schools worldwide to offer the IB program to students, and has the

distinction of being the only school in Newfoundland and Labrador to offer this

program as a part of its curriculum. Students go through an application process,

and must demonstrate a commitment to this advanced level of study. Currently, we

have approximately twenty-five students participating in the IB program at Holy

Heart, and last year all twenty-five students registered in the program

graduated with marks well above the international average for the program.

The IB program is a demanding, pre-university course of study designed for

highly motivated secondary students. The program offers a comprehensive,

two-year international curriculum, and stresses critical thinking and

inter-cultural understanding. Students study six subjects concurrently in the

areas of: language; a second language; individuals and societies; experimental

sciences; mathematics; and the arts.

Mr. Speaker, though intended for academically advanced students, the program

is designed to develop well rounded students, and includes a strong emphasis on

community involvement and volunteerism. With this in mind, participants are

required to complete 150 hours of community work throughout the duration of the

program.

The intent is to create a bond between the student and the community that

will last much longer than the program. IB also introduces students to an

international learning environment and graduating students are well prepared to

enter university with advanced standing.

Until now, Mr. Speaker, only students residing within the St. John's metro

area were able to avail of this challenging and dynamic program. However, I am

pleased to announce today that the Department of Education will now provide two

new scholarships for students living outside the St. John's metro area, for

enrollment into this existing program.

The scholarships are valued at $10,000 each or $5,000 for each of the two

years that they attend this program. These scholarships will allow students to

attend school at Holy Heart of Mary and enjoy the educational cultural

advantages inherent in this esteemed program. Additionally, the department will

provide an allowance of $1,000, if required, to cover the expense of the

students' travel to and from St. John's.

Mr. Speaker, this government has an agenda which includes student achievement

levels that match and exceed the highest performers in all of Canada. Our IB

graduates are already out-performing the highest achievers in Canada and the

world, and I am delighted that we will provide this prestigious educational

opportunity for two dedicated individuals in the coming school years.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I believe what the minister is saying today is an example, perhaps, as to how

in education we have to continue to strive to find new education models, new

curricular models, and be always mindful of innovation and creativity in new

ideas and concepts as it relates to the education of the children of our

Province.

I am particularly pleased on the announcement with respect to the

International Baccalaureate because it is contained in a school within my own

District of St. John's East, namely Holy Heart of Mary High School.

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the announcement, and I share with the minister

the fact that this is good news in the sense that there will be the offering of

scholarships for two new students outside the St. John's area to participate

in the International Baccalaureate Diploma Program, but my question to the

minister is - and perhaps the minister can share this with us at a later date -

what is the application procedure, and what criteria will be used and would be

afforded to these students who want to participate? Because I think it is

important to know how individuals, indeed, from outside the metro area of St.

John's, can participate in this very worthwhile program.

Due to the fact that the school is in my own district, Mr. Speaker, I can

attest to the fact that it is a program which is very well received and truly

appreciated by the faculty and staff, and the students and their parents who are

engaged in this particular program at Holy Heart.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am certainly familiar with the International Baccalaureate Program at Holy

Heart. It is an excellent program that provides an extra challenge to highly

motivated young people. It is a great opportunity for young people to experience

this program which is renown worldwide.

I do want to commend the minister in advancing this program and making it

available to two more young people in the Province. I would urge the minister to

consider other ways - outside of a scholarship program of attending Holy Heart -

of expanding it so that young people throughout the Province will have an

opportunity to get involved in this higher level of program, because there

students who are not sufficiently challenged by high school, there are students

who really have a lot to offer even at a very young age. This program is well

known throughout the world and very well renown.

I want to express my appreciation to the minister in seeking to expand it and

encourage him to find ways of expanding it even further.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions this afternoon are for the Premier.

Mr. Speaker, as indicated in Question Period yesterday, a member of Cabinet,

the Member for Humber East, indicated publicly that there is a full range of

options to privatize health care. There are many diverse and serious

implications to the privatization of health care in this Province, from

financial stability, viability and accountability, to control of services and

provision of services, such as palliative care and Alzheimer's units, to

amendments to legislation and the protection of employees and their benefits.

Mr. Speaker, could the Premier please provide the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador with the proposed draft legislation, the contemplated language and

privatization contracts to protect public service employees, and the financial

and service preconditions to ensure that the residents of these privatized

facilities will not become victims of financially insecure companies resulting

in closure and interruption of services? In other words, Premier, where, once

again, are the safeguards and guarantees for the people of this Province that

seem to be missing in all of your negotiations?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I guess it is kind of difficult to get through to people who do not

want to listen to the answers.

Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is this: the government is not embarking

upon any manner of privatization of health care services, whatsoever. The health

care services in the Corner Brook region, as in the rest of the Province, will

be accessed through a public, common, assessment criteria system which is used

in the Province today. There will be no additional separate charges by any

operator of a facility. It will be fully funded by the people of the Province.

The standards will be enforced by the government on behalf of the people who are

in receipt of the long-term care.

There are no negotiations, Mr. Speaker. What the government announced in the

Budget is that it will prepare within sixty days - which is now some forty-six

or forty-seven days - a statement of an Expression of Interest and go out for a

Request for Proposals. We are not negotiating with anybody, Mr. Speaker. We are

going to have a public dialogue and a public Expression of Interest as to

whether or not there is anyone out there that wants to participate in the

provision of long-term care, publicly funded, guaranteed by the government in a

public health care system for meeting the needs of the people in Corner Brook.

We are not in any negotiations. There is nothing to disclose. There is no other

party to be involved in a negotiation. It is the government trying to find a way

to meet the long-term care needs of the people in Corner Brook, and we are

trying to do that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Premier says that I am not listening, but

it appears that a couple of his ministers are not listening either. The Minister

of Environment has already confirmed that they are privatizing health care.

Today, his Minister of Health indicated that they are privatizing health care.

In a release today on Chancellor Park, the Minister of Health stated: This

reinforces the view that the private sector can provide long-term care in this

Province. These are his words in his release today.

Mr. Speaker, my question for the Premier: If his own ministers are confirming

the privatizing of long-term health care in this Province, then why is he

disagreeing with them? Are they right or are you right, Premier?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, let me say again, it is one of the weakest

attempts that I have ever seen by anyone in the history of politics in the

Province to try to link two completely unrelated issues.

Everyone in Newfoundland and Labrador who is paying attention does understand

that there is one private health care facility in Newfoundland and Labrador

today, right here in St. John's at Chancellor Park. Everyone understands that.

It was built by the private sector. It was financed by the private sector. It is

run by the private sector. There has been no admission to that particular

facility through the common assessment process until the government decided to

conduct a pilot project to see if, in fact, they could provide the same levels

of service on a cost-efficient basis.

That has absolutely nothing to do and is in no way related with what we are

talking about in Corner Brook where the government provides the service - always

has and will continue to do so in Corner Brook - provide for it, pay for it and

find out if, in fact, some private sector involvement, through building and/or

operating a publicly funded and run facility, might create some efficiencies and

save the taxpayers of the Province some money that can be reinvested in health

care, while we are meeting the needs of the people in Corner Brook. I understand

he is confused, but, Mr. Speaker, we will make (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I am not confused. If it walks like a duck and

it quacks like a duck, then it is a duck.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: This government plans to privatize health care in this

Province, and you can't deny it, Premier.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I ask hon. members, when they are addressing the House, to address the Chair.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Premier formed a Cabinet Committee to specifically study the

feasibility of privatizing a long term care facility in Corner Brook. On

February 26, 2003 the Premier confirmed that Cabinet had received a report from

this committee.

Mr. Speaker, will the Premier, today, table that report, so that we can see

just what kind of a study was, in fact, conducted into this major issue? Will he

show us the analysis that has been conducted for Cabinet to justify his decision

to privatize long term health care in this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition might have a record in the past of

raising his voice with people, pointing at them in a threatening gesture and so

on. He can do that if he likes, and suggesting that they might need another

treatment in another location. I tell you one thing, it doesn't bother me. I

deal with issues, not with people, and not with trying to operate by way of

threat and innuendo.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is this - and he can

raise his voice and he can turn red in the face all he likes, and talk about

privatization - this government is not interested in privatizing health care in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This government is not interested in privatizing health care in Newfoundland

and Labrador, this government is interested in finding high quality, top level

service for the people who need it at the best value for the taxpayers on a

timely basis. That is the process that we will go through, Mr. Speaker,

undeterred by the tone of voice, the pointing, the threatening, the yelling and

the screaming of the Leader of the Opposition. He can do what he likes, we are

going to deal with the issue, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will speak a little softer for the Premier. Mr. Speaker, in order for

private operators to undertake the construction and operation of private health

care facilities, they have to make a profit or they simply will not do it.

Unlike government, in addition to making a profit, they have higher borrowing

costs, they have income taxes, they have less purchasing power, and they have

overhead and administration costs which cannot be spread over a large base like

government. They do not have the same economies of scale and economies of scope.

Mr. Speaker, can the Premier please explain, if he plans to impose national

standards on these privatized facilities, how can they possibly get it done at a

lower cost than government, which has no profit, no taxes, and better borrowing

and purchasing power? Surely, Premier, you cannot be managing health care in

this Province that poorly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Maybe I could give an example or two that the Leader of the Opposition might

be more familiar with, because obviously he is not familiar at all with health

care.

The fact of the matter is, in the Justice system, for example, we have had

private sector interests built and maintained for us, court facilities. It does

not mean that we have privatized the Justice system. It means that we have found

a way to have that done, and good value for the taxpayers.

In the Level I and Level II personal care homes, Mr. Speaker, they are

private enterprises in which the government provides subsidies to the residents

in those facilities. They are financed, built, operated, staffed, by private

operators, Mr. Speaker, but no one calls it private health care because it is

funded in the end by the taxpayer. The access to it is controlled by access to

the money of the people, the taxpayers' money, and that is exactly the

circumstance here, Mr. Speaker.

He can try to describe it as he wants. This time, the fact of the matter is,

he is dead wrong. He does not want to talk about the real issues in the Province

today because he has been on the defensive politically for a couple of weeks,

ever since the Budget. He does not want to talk about the real issues in the

Province and he is trying to come up with -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - a red herring about something that does not even exist

on the agenda of the government, which is privatization of health care.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to take his seat.

PREMIER GRIMES: We do not even discuss it in our caucus and on this side

of the House because it is not on the agenda.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Premier just said that health care for

seniors is not a real issue in this Province. That is what he just implied by

his statement. That is exactly what he said.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. WILLIAMS: We are concerned about you gambling on privatization for

the seniors of our Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the original estimate for the long-term care

facility was between $50 million and $55 million. Since government decided to

privatize that facility, that cost estimate increased to $70 million in order to

provide contractors with $20 million in profit.

Mr. Speaker, can the Premier explain to the people: How could this be a

cheaper option if the estimate has gone up by $20 million?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, another pathetic attempt, I would suggest, by the Leader of the

Opposition to try and twist my words into something that I did not say.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is this: Everybody in

this Province does understand that first and foremost in this debate is

providing the level of care that our seniors need in a facility that is

appropriate to deliver it.

Maybe he has not had the same reaction in the meetings in Corner Brook, in

his own district, where he is overly sensitive about a neighbouring Member of

the House of Assembly who understands issues very well and meets with the people

very, very regularly and knows their concerns, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, let me describe it as this: In my sessions

with the committee and with the council, they have said our concern is this: We

believe the level of care is the right and proper level of care. We believe that

the people who are working in the system today are doing the very best in terms

of taking care of these seniors.

What they are suggesting is this: The facility in which it is being done, the

two facilities are inadequate and outdated and it is making the level of care

deteriorate because of the fact they cannot get the proper lifts into the

facility, they cannot use modern equipment to help get people in and out of

baths because of physical structure problems.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: We are trying to fix a physical structure problem and

improve the level of care. That is our commitment. That is what we are trying to

do, and we are determined to make it happen as soon as we can on behalf of those

seniors, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Premier said yesterday in the House: If the long-term care

needs of the residents of Corner Brook cannot be provided, "...at lower

than or equivalent cost to what the government would do it ourselves, there is

no point in us doing it." Those are the exact words that the Premier said.

Mr. Speaker, could the Premier please answer this question: If privatization

does not prove to be the more cost-effective option, will the people of Corner

Brook get their long-term care facility that is built, owned and operated by

government, and, if so, when?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The people of Corner Brook have already gotten a straight clear answer from

the government, and they respect that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: They respect that, Mr. Speaker. They did not get an

answer that one week said: I am not sure I can commit to this because I haven't

seen the books yet and it will have to stack up with the rest of the priorities

in the whole of the Province. The people of Corner Brook should not expect me to

make political promises just for me to get elected in Corner Brook. I am more

responsible than that.

That is his speech one day. Then, when the issue comes up and he thinks he

can use it to political advantage, he turns around and says: We are going to

build it anyway. I do not need to see the books. Never mind the books. Never

mind due diligence. Trust me!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Trust me! I am going to build this facility, Mr. Speaker.

The people of the Province are a little smarter than that. I give them a lot

more credit than to listen to that kind of nonsense. With us they know this: We

are going to go through a legitimate process to provide the service that they

need on a cost-effective basis, one way or the other, and in the next fifty days

we are going to examine whether a private-public partnership, publicly funded

health care through a private-public partnership can accomplish that so -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: - they can have the service in the proper facilities

sooner rather than later, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, (inaudible) people -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. WILLIAMS: If the cost comes in at a cost that is not lower, and they

do not go the public-private route, will you build that facility, as a

government, and, if so, when? That is what I need an answer to.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, again let me say this, maybe the Leader of the Opposition just

forgot where he is. We are not in a courtroom. We are in a political debating

arena, the House of Assembly, where each of us can ask the questions on our mind

and give the answer that we choose to give. He cannot dictate the answer here or

anywhere else.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Now, he may have been able to try to bully and intimidate

people like that someplace else, but not in this democratic House, Mr. Speaker.

It will not happen!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: It is not going to happen in Newfoundland and Labrador.

The people are not going to stand for it, that someone come in and try to muzzle

us and tell us what the limits of our answers are going to be.

Mr. Speaker, what we have found out is this -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: What we have found out, Mr. Speaker, is this, the Leader

of the Opposition, who pretends, depending on the day and the issue, to be on

someone's side because he thinks it might be politically advantageous -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - is now suggesting that he has to keep some goodies for

the election. His words, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: What is the goody for Corner Brook? What is the goody

going to be for Clarenville? What is the goody going to be for Grand Falls?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I asked the Premier twice to respond to the

question.

I will repeat his statement from yesterday which says, "...the long-term

care needs of these residents in Corner Brook at lower than or equivalent cost

to what the government would do it ourselves, there is no point in us doing

it." That implies that if it does not come in at a lower cost then they are

not going to do it. The only other option is if the government does it

themselves.

Mr. Speaker, the Member for Humber East, the Minister of Environment,

indicated publicly yesterday -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: - that borrowing by government to build a long-term health

care facility could jeopardize its credit rating. In his own words he said that

the ability -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary, I ask him to get to his question now.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

- that the ability to go out and borrow the money by government was just not

there. He said that you and your government, Premier, cannot do it. No

privatization options. No option to borrow the money.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, could the Premier please advise, if the fact

that Cabinet feels that we are in financial jeopardy and the ability to borrow

it is just not there, then how does he intend to provide a long-term care

facility to the people of Corner Brook?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate the rehash of the same questions from yesterday and the day

before. I guess there is nothing new that he wants to talk about.

Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter again is this, the same person in the

Leader of the Opposition, in all of his public pronouncements would say: I can't

make commitments to the people of the Province. I am too responsible to do it

because I have not seen the state of the books. I will have to have time, you

have to trust me. I need time to look at the books, go through some due

diligence and see whether or not I can do any of these things.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: Now, Mr. Speaker, that is his standard answer. Members

now are hanging their heads in embarrassment and shame because they have

repeated that to their constituents in their districts saying: Don't expect me

- the Member for Trinity North has said it, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer, quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: He said: Don't expect me to make a commitment in

Clarenville because we have to look at the books. But the Leader can say: I do

not need to look at the books. I am going do Corner Brook because it became -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday, I raised the issue of a former Minister of Industry, Trade and

Rural Development not returning government purchased, government owned office

equipment which was purchased while he was in office, including: a computer; a

fax machine; a desk; a VCR; a laptop computer; and a shredder. The Premier's

answer was that he was not aware and he agreed to investigate the matter and

report back to the House today.

I would like to ask the Premier: Can he inform the House, today, of the

results of his investigation?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to address what

was a most unfair and inaccurate accusation that was made yesterday against the

former Premier and Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

Yesterday, the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's made a statement in

this House that former Premier and Industry and Rural Development minister,

Beaton Tulk, remains in possession of various government office equipment and

has said that Mr. Tulk has refused to return this equipment. Mr. Speaker, this

accusation is unfair and inaccurate. I want to take this opportunity to set the

record straight.

When the former member served as a minister and Premier his home was equipped

with modern office equipment to allow him to conduct the business of the

Province, after regular office hours, in an efficient and effective manner from

his residence. This equipment -

MR. E. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MS FOOTE: Do you want the answer?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair would remind hon. members that Points of Order during Question

Period ought to be raised after the Question Period has ended. That has been a

practice that we have been trying to follow here in the House. So, the Chair

would like for the member to hold his Points of Order until afterwards.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I normally would but (inaudible) -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, I will ask the member if he can just hold on until after Question

Period. That is the practice.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer, very quickly.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, it will be my pleasure to table this response and

I would have done it in Answers to Questions, but since the member opposite

raised the matter.

The equipment replaced personal home office equipment that had been purchased

by the former minister with his own money and that equipment was removed by

government for temporary storage. When the former minister left office the

intention was to substitute the government assets with Mr. Tulk's own personal

assets and to recover any other government assets at the time. Mr. Tulk's own

equipment has not been able to be traced through government -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude her answer, quickly.

MS FOOTE: - records to date and officials are still in the process of

tracking it down.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, I have a hearing problem, but I think I have a

really bad one here today. Mr. Speaker, did I just hear the minister say that

they replaced personal equipment of the former Premier and the former Minister

of Industry, Trade and Rural Development, replaced his personal office equipment

at his home, with government equipment, that they removed his own equipment from

his home to replace it and they lost that equipment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Please repeat your answer.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, I will now finish the answer.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Because, Mr. Speaker, they have not been able to track down the

former Premier and minister's equipment and furniture, for this reason a

decision was made by the Deputy Minister to leave Mr. Tulk with the furniture

and equipment in his possession until his own could be returned to him. Regular

contact was maintained with Mr. Tulk on this matter over time, and in early

March of this year - Mr. Speaker, I am a little concerned here because of the

aspersions that have been cast on a reputable member, former member of this

House, and I think the onus is on the Opposition to at least give that member

the benefit of the doubt.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude her answer, quickly.

MS FOOTE: Regular contact has been made with Mr. Tulk on this matter, and

in early March of this year both the former minister and Premier discussed this

and both wanted to bring a closure to it. In fact, notwithstanding the fact that

we are still in the process of trying to find Mr. Tulk's furniture, to put the

issue to rest Mr. Tulk has agreed to return all of the furniture within the two

weeks when he returns to the Province, recognizing again -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer, quickly.

MS FOOTE: - that his furniture is still somewhere in the system.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude her answer, quickly.

MS FOOTE: This is an internal administrative matter. Clearly, anyone

would know that it is not fair to cast aspersions on a former member of the

House, which is exactly what the Member for St. Mary's tried to do yesterday.

It is no reflection on that member, the fact that he had never (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Mines and Energy.

On March 24 I asked the minister about the adjacency principle work related

to Voisey's Bay. At that time the minister seemed quite content to rely on the

goodwill -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. COLLINS: I am sorry.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, on March 24, I asked the minister questions concerning the

adjacency principle for work at Voisey's Bay and the minister responded by

saying that they were relying on the goodwill of the company.

Mr. Speaker, I have received a list of people who were employed at Voisey's

Bay and goodwill does not seem to exist. For instance, the only three surveyors

employed at the project were from Ontario. The only three payroll clerks came

from Quebec. The only two warehouse managers came from outside the Province. The

health and safety inspector came from Vancouver, with several engineering and

various managerial positions filled by people from outside the Province. Some of

these people, I say to the minister, are scheduled to come back this year.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. COLLINS: I ask the minister: Does this list appear to have any

goodwill towards Labradorians or other people in the Province? And, what part of

the adjacency principle suggests that work should be given to people from Quebec

to Vancouver?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

At no time, Mr. Speaker, did I say that the application of the adjacency

principle depends on the goodwill of the company, of Voisey's Bay Nickel or of

Inco. The fact is that we have a contract between the government of our Province

and Inco for the development of the Voisey's Bay deposit. Part of that

contract is a guarantee that the adjacency principle will be abided by, and that

means that natives of Labrador, and Labradorians, get first preference for jobs

up there. Now, that does not mean that there will not be anybody else from

anywhere else in Canada get a job up there.

The reality is that there will be some people employed from other parts of

the Province and other parts of the country. That will be necessary to get the

job done properly, because there are not sufficient people in Labrador to do it.

The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that we have a legal agreement with the company

that guarantees the adjacency principle will be applicable and we intend to see

that is enforced.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the minister now to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, I spoke with the company yesterday about how their

project is developing and was reassured again that they have every intention of

abiding by the adjacency principle and that they have confidence -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the minister now to take his seat.

MR. NOEL: - that the unions involved will also abide by the adjacency

principle, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

MR. E. BYRNE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rose on a point of order earlier, which is unusual during Question Period

although not necessarily out of order, and I agreed with the Speaker's request

for me to raise it immediately following -

AN HON. MEMBER: Reluctantly.

MR. E. BYRNE: Reluctantly or not, I agreed with it.

The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that what the minister did in her

response today was, she read from a document which, more properly, procedurally,

threw Question Period into a little bit of chaos, to be honest with you.

Secondly, it belongs more in two points on the Order Paper. What should have

happened today, either it should have been read in Statements by Ministers, or

in answers responding to questions yesterday. The minister chose to do none of

that. The minister chose to stand up, Mr. Speaker, and read directly from a

document.

Having said that, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister read

from the document which I see on her desk now, I wonder will she - not wonder,

but she must table it upon request - table that with the Page now and send it

over to myself as her critic?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, it is clear where the Opposition is coming from on this issue.

It is not the answer they are interested in; it is the spin they can put on the

answers themselves.

Mr. Speaker, when a question is raised in Question Period on such an

important issue as this, we acknowledge over on this side of the House that

there are certain rules regarding Question Period and certain rules regarding

the answer as well as the question, but this was an important question and the

minister was keeping close to her notes, to her copious notes, to make sure that

she was giving the right

interpretation to the House, but obviously hon. members

did not want that. I think the hon. minister indicated in her answer that she

was willing to table the document, and she said that, so I do not think there is

any reluctance there.

With respect to giving the answer at the appropriate place for Answers to

Questions for which Notice has been Given, we have not arrived there yet. We are

not at that point yet in the proceedings. So, if hon. members wanted that

procedure to be followed, they ought to have left the question alone and waited

for the minister to have given the answer in the appropriate place in the House,

Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, there is no question about their motive. They were

not interested in the answer. The minister has indicated that she is going to

table the answers. What else do they want?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, let me response to the three points the

minister said.

First of all, we are not really interested in putting a spin on it. The

government obviously today was quite capable of doing that all by themselves.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: The second point, Mr. Speaker, is this: In the ten years

that I have been here, I have never seen a minister stand up and read a prepared

statement to a question. It should have been done during Ministerial Statements.

Was it was not, I think, speaks for itself.

Thirdly, Mr. Speaker, it will be a very cold day in you-know-what place when

we start taking advice from the Government House Leader on what type of question

we should ask to what minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the intensity of the heat will rise much higher

before we capitulate to the hon. members opposite with respect to what answers

we will give.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the rules of the House were

followed here, and that if the hon. members wanted the answer to be given in the

appropriate place they should have waited for that particular point in the

Orders of the Day.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of order, I believe there were two points that the hon. member

raised. One is that he wanted the hon. the minister to table her notes, and I

think she has done that. The other one is, a question was raised, the hon.

minister was given an opportunity to answer it. The hon. minister can at any

time choose to either take it under advisement and report to the House later, or

can use her notes, or his notes, to reply to a question.

Often ministers do have notes and respond, and members also quote from

documents on many occasions when answering questions, but if a question is taken

under advisement then I guess we should leave that until we have reached that

particular point in our Standing Orders when the ministers can reply.

MR. PARSONS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Justice and

Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not sure if this is quite a point of privilege or a point of order but I

will raise it as a point of order, I guess.

I certainly do not think that I ever had a thin skin before I came here, nor

gotten one after I came here, but I do think I had a character, and a good

character and integrity, when I came into this House. I have not done anything

since February 9,1999, to change that.

During the questioning of my colleague, the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Rural Development, the Leader of the Opposition said across the House, to

myself, that I knew about the Mr. Tulk furniture incident. Mr. Speaker, I

absolutely knew nothing about this incident until it was -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the minister.

MR. PARSONS: I knew absolutely nothing about this incident until

yesterday, when the Member for Placentia raised it. I advised the media of that

yesterday. That is the truth, and I do not think the comments of the Leader of

the Opposition are fair and appropriate. I think it does impugn my character and

credibility and integrity, and I think he should do the honourable thing and

apologize for saying it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, I remind hon. members when the Chair is standing that members should

be seated. This has happened on a number of occasions today, when the Chair has

stood, that members continue to stand and speak.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I believe the matter that the member has raised is more a point of order.

There were no aspersions cast on anybody's character, including -

PREMIER GRIMES: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Well, let me say to the Premier, if you would like to hear

my answer, I sat next to him and I am quite capable -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: He is sitting right there. He can say it himself

(inaudible).

MR. WILLIAMS: I will now. I will now in a minute. You will hear me.

PREMIER GRIMES: He wants to get up. Let him get up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: I do not know about anyone else, Mr. Speaker, but I am not

ashamed to let my leader up, let me tell you that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Opposition House Leader now to get to the point of order.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will call for order one more time and if order is not forthcoming

then I shall recess this House until members are prepared to proceed.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the leader is going to get up right after me.

He will do that himself.

Just on the point raised by the Minister of Justice, first of all, it is a

point of order. Secondly, there was no accusation made by the Leader of the

Opposition indicating to the Minister of Justice that you knew, or anything like

that. No such thing happened.

Mr. Speaker, I think that the record of Hansard will speak for itself. I

believe that the point of order, when the record of Hansard speaks for itself,

will demonstrate quite clearly that the Leader of the Opposition made no

accusation across the House to the Minister of Justice.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, to the point of

order.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: I heard the Minister of Justice in his interview last night

and he indicated that he knew nothing about it. I did not say in this House

today that he knew about it. You can take that to the bank. I certainly did not

say it, and I did not cast any aspersion whatsoever on the character of the

Minister of Justice. I stand here truthfully when I say that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I am not sure whether this is a point of order or a point of

privilege, but in his opening question to the House today the Member for Humber

West did say - and I believe Hansard will verify that he did say - that I am on

the record of advocating for private health care. Nothing can be further from

the truth, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MERCER: I have not said that, and I will challenge the Member for

Humber West to show where I have said that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I ask the Member for Humber West, where in the record - whether it be in

Hansard or on the outside of this House - I have said that? I will ask him to

withdraw that statement.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I have seen this before, about a year-and-a-half ago when

government got under heat. Every day they were rising on points of order and

points of privilege trying to embarrass the Leader of the Opposition. It did not

happen then, Mr. Speaker, and it is not going to happen now.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his point.

MR. E. BYRNE: To the member's point exactly, and I can quote for him

what was said and so will Hansard, directly. It was what he said on an Open Line

program and the Leader of the Opposition was quoting the transcript when he

said: Yesterday, a Member of Cabinet, the Member for Humber East, indicated

publicly that there is a full range of options to privatize health care in the

Province. That is what the member said. That is not paraphrasing by the Leader

of the Opposition, that is your own words that happened.

Mr. Speaker, if anyone has a point of order it would be the Opposition to the

members opposite wasting the House's time on trivial and insignificant

matters.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: I find it absolutely strange, Mr. Speaker, that the only people

who can raise valid points of order happen to be on that side of the House. Isn't

that rather strange, Mr. Speaker? What a presumptuous attitude to have of

oneself.

Mr. Speaker, hon. members know that it is not correct, that it is not

appropriate in our Standing Orders, anywhere within Parliamentary Procedure, to

misrepresent the facts expressed by another individual, by another member.

Integrity begs that when we are talking about the speeches of another member,

that we not misinterpret what they have said. Misinformation, Mr. Speaker, is

not what we should be specializing in. So hon. members have to be very careful

when they are talking about and attributing to what other members said. I would

advise all hon. members to ensure that they are not misinterpreting or giving

misinformation in terms of what some hon. member is supposed to have said.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I will hear one more point from the hon. Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We look forward to you making a quick and expeditious ruling on the points of

order that have been raised today. I will say this, the protestations of the

members opposite I think have more to do today with diverting attention from the

Member for Cape St. Mary's & Placentia's questions of yesterday than

they do with anything else.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. MERCER: Mr. Speaker, I reiterate my request through you. I would ask

you to view Hansard to see whether or not, at any time in this House, I have

ever made the statements attributed to me or - I know it is outside your

purview, but even outside of this House.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will take the points of order raised by the hon. members under

advisement and report back to the House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

If members care to continue with this discussion I ask that they do it

outside the Chamber. This is interrupting our proceedings here and it cannot be

tolerated.

Private Members' Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to speak to a resolution which was introduced by me yesterday.

To begin speaking on that resolution, I will read it into Hansard and for the

benefit of those who are listening. The resolution reads:

WHEREAS the residents and visitors to the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador rely and depend heavily on our road system for transportation,

business, health care, tourism and for basic quality of life; and

WHEREAS provincial roads and highways are in a serious state of disrepair in

virtually every region of the Province; and

WHEREAS the condition of the Province's roads and highways are a

significant competitive disadvantage for Newfoundland and Labrador companies

that market products in Canada and the United States; and

WHEREAS there are over 900 kilometres of dirt roads and some 1,500 kilometres

of twenty-five year old paved roads in the Province; and

WHEREAS over $300 million is immediately required for provincial roads; and

WHEREAS there is only $23 million budgeted in this year's Budget for

provincial roads which is completely insufficient; and

WHEREAS the Roads for Rail Agreement is coming to an end;

THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the government negotiate a new cost-sharing

will bring the quality of the Province's roads and highways up to North

American standards and contribute to the Province's overall productivity and

competitiveness.

Mr. Speaker, this resolution has certainly been introduced or the spirit of

this resolution is not uncommon here to this Legislature. Similar resolutions

have been put forward in earlier times and the conditions of our roads in the

Province have not changed a whole lot from the time that those resolutions were

presented upon until today.

Mr. Speaker, repetitively, day after day, members, at least on this side of

the House, especially members representing rural districts, stand and present

petitions day after day, including myself, on the condition of roads in their

district, the conditions of the lack of road maintenance in their district

because it is a reflection of what those members are hearing from their

constituents and from the people they represent here in this Legislature.

We have been in Confederation with the Dominion of Canada for some fifty-four

years now, 1949, and we still have over 900 kilometres of dirt road, over 1,500

kilometres of worn-out pavement. In fact, it is not uncommon for me to get a

call asking if the Department of Works, Services and Transportation would come

and take up certain sections of pavement because it has deteriorated so bad that

they would rather drive over a dirt road. They would rather go back to having a

dirt road than drive over the condition that some of the pavement in this

Province the way it exists today.

Mr. Speaker, it is not uncommon to drive - and this problem is not unique to

Bonavista South. It is not unique to members' districts that are represented

by the Progressive Conservative Party here or the New Democratic Party. It is

reflective of roads that are represented by pretty well all members in this

Legislature.

Mr. Speaker, 1,500 kilometres of worn-out pavement, and this year we see the

Budget brought forward and again, we see $23 million brought forward for road

reconstruction and repair. It is not uncommon in years gone by, and I am not

talking about a lot of years gone by, where there would be a fair amount of

money in the road maintenance budget where each depot would be able to go out

and do some paving; probably lay six, seven kilometres of pavement. That has

been common in years gone by, where the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation would have a road budget that they would be able to respond to

some of the needs without doing it through capital cost. It was always a

situation where the Department of Works, Services and Transportation would have

enough money in their budget that they could go out and put crushed stone on the

shoulders of the road and protect the pavement in that kind of a way. Today, Mr.

Speaker, we even see money taken away from road maintenance as well as capital

cost.

Mr. Speaker, back in 1989, if you would check the budget you will find out

that there was in excess of $40 million for road maintenance and repair. Today,

we are seeing that cut in half, where we have seen the amount of kilometres of

road increased. In fact, there is something like 900,000 kilometres of road work

in this Province now that the Department of Works, Services and Transportation

are responsible for.

Go back into the communities and look at what they put on the sides, on the

shoulders of the road. In fact, I have had calls, and I know they do not only

come to my phone or my office, Mr. Speaker, but I have had calls from residents

in communities, especially seniors, who say they cannot even go out for a walk

anymore because what they use on the shoulders of the road today is not crushed

stone. It is not washed stone. It is what they call pit rock. They go into a

gravel pit with a front end loader, they scoop up the earth as it exists there,

pick out the boulders, and that is what is put on the shoulders of the road.

That is what is put in the areas of the shoulders of the road in order to fill

out where the pavement has deteriorated. That is what people are driving on

today.

Mr. Speaker, we are trying to build an economy in this Province today, and

one of the places that we are looking at, or two of the places that we are

looking at, Mr. Speaker, are to increase the manufacturing effort in this

Province, to cater to the manufacturing and the processing industries in this

Province, and, Mr. Speaker, to build on the tourism industry. How are we ever

going to build on the tourism industry, and how are we ever going to increase

economic activity in rural Newfoundland and Labrador if we do not maintain and

replace the basic infrastructure of maintaining our roads?

It was only a short time ago, Mr. Speaker, less than a year ago, I think it

was, that I heard the President of Terra Nova Shoes out in Harbour Grace, who

saw fit that he had to take up this challenge and speak out on the conditions of

the roads in this Province because of what it was costing his company in order

to get their product to market. The President of Terra Nova Shoes, a success

story in Harbour Grace, who saw fit to come out and challenge the government on

the condition of the roads in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, it is not uncommon to talk to truckers who continually travel

this Province and ask them how our roads compare with other roads that they

travel over. They would tell you very quickly, Mr. Speaker, that the roads in

this Province are second to none when it comes to bad conditions that they have

to drive over.

Mr. Speaker, all the commodities - we saw the railway disappear back in 1988,

and at that particular time there was something like $800 million that was

brought forward; that we agreed to let go our railway to see $800 million

returned to this Province in a Roads for Rail Agreement. Mr. Speaker, at that

particular time there was something like $60 million that was given to the Town

of Bishop's Falls and the Town of Port aux Basque, and there was $740 million

designated for the Trans-Canada Highway and the trunk roads in this Province.

I am going to speak about the Bonavista highway, because this agreement came

into effect in 1988. At that particular time Route 230, which is the main

highway leading to Bonavista, there was $13 million identified in the Roads for

Rail Agreement to upgrade the main road leading to Bonavista, and so it should

be, because the Town of Bonavista and Trinity and Princeton and Port Union gave

up their railway. Now all the goods that go down over the Bonavista Peninsula,

all the goods that service this Province, are done by a mode of transportation

that use our highways. There is not a lot of product, Mr. Speaker, that travels

in the marine way anymore. It is evident in Labrador but certainly not around

the Province. I would suggest that probably 99.9 per cent of all commodities and

products that are produced and consumed here in this Province are done by

roadway, and the amount of traffic that is on our roadways today compared to

prior 1988 has certainly increased a thousandfold. Anybody who drives the

highways would know that today.

Mr. Speaker, the government, in their wisdom, decided not to spend any of

that $13 million on the Bonavista highway. The first phase of construction, if I

recall, was carried out probably not up until 1994-1995, at that particular

time, and the $13 million that was identified and designated was certainly worth

a lot less than it would have been at that time if they decided to go forward

and attend to the need.

Mr. Speaker, I understand that there is - in fact, I have to say that there

was more interest expressed on this side of the House in our caucus this morning

than most other resolutions that were brought forward, because everybody wanted

to get up and speak on this particular resolution and talk about their problems

in their district, and talk about the needs of transportation and the

shortcomings of this Province when it comes to dealing with road conditions. So,

Mr. Speaker, I will allow other people to stand and speak, and talk about some

of the needs that they have put forward and they have seen and were made known

to them.

I say to the ministers opposite, we are not fearmongering when we talk about

the bad road conditions. You see it for yourselves as well. What we have asked

here, Mr. Speaker, is for this government to go and approach their federal

cousins in Ottawa and immediately negotiate an agreement, because this Province

cannot look after the maintenance and upgrading of the Trans-Canada Highway and

all of the trunk roads. It is impossible to do alone. I know that, and people

opposite know that, when we have so many other needs.

Province should be more proactive in reaching out and including the Members of

Parliament - which is not being done, Mr. Speaker - so we might negotiate an

agreement that would see our roads brought up to standards that are acceptable

in 2003.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WALSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In terms of making the private member's resolution today with respect to

the roads in the Province and indeed what we are seeing across the Province this

time of year with the dirt roads, for me to stand here and say we do not have

problems out there, I could not do that.

I am fully aware of the problems we are having with the dirt roads,

especially this time of year when you have the frost leaving and the highways

heaving. That is happening not only on dirt roads, but is also happening with

respect to pavement as well.

Mr. Speaker, government this year decided to put some $23 million into roads

in our Province. It is $1 million more than last year. It is $1 million more in

what we have to look upon ourselves as tough economic times, and yet we were

able to do that.

Mr. Speaker, we had to make choices as well. When I look at the requests that

have come from all sides of the House of Assembly, from all forty-eight

districts - I have had representation in terms of what they need and what they

require - $50 million would not go near it; nay, $100 million would not go near

it. Yet, this year we were able to find some $23 million for provincial roads.

Mr. Speaker, the decisions were basic. Choices had to be made. We made those

choices. Would I have taken, as the Minister Responsible for Works, Services and

Transportation, some of the $71.6 million that was given to health care? No, I

would not, because that is probably not enough for that portfolio in terms of an

increase either.

Would I have taken the half-million dollars set aside for the Kids Eat Smart

program? No, I would not, because those funds are needed as well.

Would I have taken the $11.5 million set aside for the home repair program?

Some 2,000 homes will be repaired in this fiscal year. Would I have taken that

money? No, they need to be able to look forward to something for them as well.

Nor would I have taken the $1 million that we set aside for library books.

There is no doubt, when you are looking at a province the size of

Newfoundland and Labrador, some 500,000 people in an area that has some 10,000

kilometres of coastline, not even counting what we have in highways and

infrastructure, there is no doubt that more money could be spent and there is no

doubt that we probably could have made different choices.

Mr. Speaker, you cannot stand in the House of Assembly every day and say: You

are spending too much, you are borrowing too much, you have asked for a deficit

in the neighbourhood of $300 million, it should not be that size, it should not

be larger, and at the same time expect to be able to do everything the

government would like to do.

Twenty-three million dollars is $1 million more than last year. We will

spread that money throughout the Province as evenly as we possibly can, meeting

the most crucial needs across the Province. The question was asked, of how much

more than last year. One million dollars more than last year.

Mr. Speaker, to stand and defend the number, I wish it was larger; however,

when you cut the cloth to try to fit the budgets that you are working with,

again I make no apologizes for not taking the money from health, for not taking

the money from the Kids Eat Smart Program, for not taking the money from the

home repair program, and for not taking it out of the libraries.

We will do the best we can with the $23 million that we have allocated, and

we will reach out and try to deal with the areas of this Province that need that

help most. I go on record now and say that some will be disappointed in many

parts of the Province, in many districts, including my own, where I could

probably spend $2 million and not even see the amount of work carried out. Areas

of our Province will be disappointed, and I serve notice now and tell people

that, but we will make the $23 million go as far as we can to meet the needs of

as many regions as we possibly can. Hopefully, in future years, when we find

ourselves in a much stronger and a much better economic situation, the $23

million this year could very well climb to the $40 million, $50 million or $60

million that we require.

Madam Speaker, I understand also that we have limited ourselves to time in

order for other members to participate. I have agreed, along with other

colleagues, that we would only take five minutes each and I am just now over

that time.

I thank my hon. colleagues for giving me an opportunity to speak. I will give

leave now, or give up whatever time I might have normally available, to allow

other members to participate in the debate.

MADAM SPEAKER (M. Hodder): The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Madam Speaker, I just want to spend a few minutes to rise in

support of this particular resolution. We do have a very serious problem with

roads throughout our Province, both on the Island and in Labrador, where we need

extensive funds to complete, in Labrador's case, the Trans-Labrador Highway.

We need serious upgrading of the major Trans-Canada route across the Province

and, as other members have said and will say about their own particular

districts, significant upgrading of the road network throughout the Province.

One of the reasons why we are talking about this today, Madam Speaker, is

that we had, as a part of one of the deals that we made since Confederation,

short-term obligation, we had a long-term obligation from the Government of

Canada with respect to the continuation of a railway. We have had a long-term

had other long-term obligations that we have traded in for short-term cash. The

short-term cash that I am talking about here today is the Roads for Rail

Agreement; that the permanent constitutional obligation of the Government of

Canada in perpetuity to continue a rail service across this Province and link it

to a ferry service to North Sydney, that was traded for a sum of money, some

$200 million, which has been spent over a fifteen year period and is now gone.

I remember in 1988, I was a Member of Parliament at the time, when this deal

came down. It was considered by the government of the day here in this Province,

the Peckford government, as being an excellent deal. This was some sort of a

fabulous bonanza for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Like many things

that look good up front, this has proven to be something that we have given up -

we have now given up in perpetuity any constitutional obligation for the

to the other by way of the rail bed.

Madam Speaker, we all know the history of the Newfoundland Railway. It

practically bankrupted the country of Newfoundland, when we were a country. A

lot of money was spent on it, as there was in Canada. The Canadian National

Railway, the so-called national dream which built Canada, almost bankrupt

Canada. There is no difference there. What happened to the people in the rest of

Canada, Mr. Speaker? The Governments of Canada ensured that that railway

continued, was upgraded, was changed, was modernized and continues to this day

to be an important transportation link across the country, except for this

Province. Perhaps that is one of the things that contributes, when people are

talking about travelling from one side of the country to the other, they end

that journey at Halifax because the train stops there or the train stops in

North Sydney. We have given that up, Madam Speaker, in return for a short-term

infusion of cash, which was a lot of cash back in 1988, but $200 million today

is not considered to be a huge sum of money. In fact, our provincial deficit for

this year is almost 50 per cent higher than that, approaching $300 million.

So, Madam Speaker, I support the resolution. We do need a new deal but what

we really need, Madam Speaker, is a constitutional commitment, and a new

under the Terms of Union, to continue with the rail link across Newfoundland,

from St. John's to Port aux Basques, that can be replaced with another ongoing

permanent commitment. Perhaps that is something that the Royal Commission may

deal with, but in terms of negotiating such a deal as is proposed here, I

certainly think we should try to do that, but in doing that, we should emphasize

that what was done in 1988 may have solved some cash flow problems for a number

of years, but I would submit, Madam Speaker, we should not have given up any

transportation in Newfoundland and Labrador so we can finish the Trans-Labrador

Highway, so we can have roads in this Province that see a standard, that is a

national standard across this country, that people in this Province are able to

participate in.

So, I support the resolution, Madam Speaker. I think it is timely because the

need is there, and I urge all hon. members to join in supporting it as well.

MADAM SPEAKER (M. Hodder): The hon. the Member for Bonavista North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARDING: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I am pleased, as well, to rise here today in this House and support the

resolution put forward by my colleague from Bonavista South with respect to the

conditions of roads in this Province.

Madam Speaker, I have to go no further than my own District of Bonavista

North in verifying and confirming the concerns that my colleague mentioned in

his resolution. The full $23 million put forward by government this year in

their Budget could be spent in my district and would not do justice to upgrading

and paving the roads that need to be done this year. Of the thirty communities

in my district, there are only two that I could really point to and say have

roads that are in a satisfactory condition. I hate to say this, but most of the

roads that were paved twenty-five, thirty years ago are now in a worse condition

than the good gravel roads that we had back at that time.

Madam Speaker, I would like to tell you about a situation this past week in

the community of Noggin Cove in Bonavista North. At the end of the gravel road

in Noggin Cove there is located the only grocery store in that town, and the

roads in that community were so bad last week the vehicles could not get over it

and go to the store. You know, Madam Speaker, one resident of that community

took it upon himself to modify a farm tractor that he had. He put a blade on it

and dragged it over that road back and forth until he had it leveled off enough

to make it passable. That is shameful for the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador, in the year 2003. I have to say, that says an awful lot about care,

concern and compassion for the people of this Province.

Madam Speaker, the roads not only in Noggin Cove, but also right through

Frederickton and all of Gander Bay and other parts of my district, Bonavista

North, are in the same kind of condition. They have been like it for years. It

is nothing only total neglect and disrespect for the people who live and work in

those communities.

The roads in this Province are in so bad a shape right now that they are

costing hundreds of thousands of dollars extra in repairs to equipment that the

government owns. With this high repair and maintenance cost to this old worn out

equipment, in addition to that, the time in moving this equipment back and forth

to Grand Falls, in our case, for repairs, certainly explains why we have so many

delays in getting our work done in an efficient and timely manner.

I would like to take you now to the other end of my district - the end

between Trinity and Gambo. That road, Route 320, is one of the most important

secondary highways in this Province. Hundreds of tractor-trailers travel over it

yearly. Thousands of visitors travel that road yearly. In fact, only last year

22,000 visitors motored over that road to visit the Barbour Living Heritage site

in Newtown. In addition to that, we have all of the local people who use that

road. A very, very busy road indeed.

The

section of road between Indian Bay and Hare Bay was promised by this

government to be done five or six years ago. It was promised when the people in

Indian Bay to Trinity area agreed to close some of their schools and have their

students bused to Hare Bay to go to school. In addition, guardrails were

supposed to be erected in dangerous sections along that highway. As of today,

most of that work has not been done.

Last year, as well, Madam Speaker, the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation went out to New-Wes-Valley and Indian Bay, Trinity area and told

the people tenders would be called within seven or eight days to have some of

that work done - the work between Indian Bay and Trinity and the work between

Badger's Quay and Pool's Island. Tenders were not called until late August,

too late for any work to be done this past year. These roads are out there now

in the worst kind of condition. Over this past fall, winter and now the spring,

it has cost the residents of those communities thousands of dollars in repairs

to their vehicles.

Again, Madam Speaker, I have to say: Where is the care, concern and

compassion of this government? Where is a commitment made, a commitment kept?

MADAM SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member his time is up.

MR. HARDING: May I have leave to finish, Madam Speaker?

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the member have a moment to conclude?

MR. HARDING: Road work in this Province has fallen behind drastically

over recent years. Here we are now at the eleventh hour with no roads agreement

signed with the federal government. Here we are with our backs to the wall

trying to negotiate yet another federal-provincial agreement. Here we are again

trying to negotiate in desperation from a corner. A very sad situation indeed.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, unless we can negotiate a long-term meaningful

roads agreement with the federal government we are in deep, deep trouble in this

Province because we are not only talking about transportation per se in itself,

we are also talking about tourism, the fishery, health care services and

education. We are talking about something that affects just about every other

aspect of living in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I do not want to take on too many of the issues raised by the

member who just spoke, the Member for Bonavista North, but a couple of comments

need to be made. First of all, I want to say that having been the member for

that district for some time, I felt very proud of the road work that I got in

that particular district. The road to Greenspond, Madam Speaker. The road to

Newtown. The road to Cape Freels from Gambo, which is a part from Gambo to just

downside Lockyers Bay.

These were large projects, Madam Speaker, that we did. It started in 1989. I

want to say to the member, that prior to that, from 1985-1989, he talked about

compassion, there was not one inch of pavement that I could get from his

government at that particular time for Bonavista North. It was only in 1989, and

to demonstrate the compassion that his government had, for eight years I was the

Member for Terra Nova, from 1975 up to 1983, that his government - by

association he tried to suggest that we had no compassion. In that period in

Terra Nova, when I was the member, not one inch of asphalt was laid in eight

years. Madam Speaker, I do not think anybody else will find that anywhere else

in any constituency, members on the other side, that not one inch of pavement

was laid by the government of his political stripe in the eight years that I

represented Terra Nova, not one inch.

Madam Speaker, I do not want to get into that, really, but the point had to

be made. I want to say that we are not negotiating from a point of desperation.

We are negotiating with confidence. We are negotiating from a point of

confidence, and negotiating in sincerity for the people of the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: Madam Speaker, I just want to say, to make this resolution a

little more acceptable to members on this side of the House, I just want to talk

about a couple of the

WHEREAS that we do not necessarily agree with.

I certainly agree with the first

WHEREAS. That is a motherhood situation, and

we know how important the roads are to all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

"WHEREAS provincial roads and highways are in a serious state of

disrepair in virtually every region of the Province...", we acknowledge

that roads are bad; they are bad in every region, but certainly we wouldn't

want to - we let that statement stand. We do believe that the roads are in worse

condition than we would like to see, but we are doing our very best to see that

they are improved.

"WHEREAS the condition of the Province's roads and highways are a

significant competitive disadvantage for Newfoundland and Labrador companies

that market products in Canada and the United States...", we take exception

to that particular recital clause. We think that is rather negative and we do

not particularly like that clause.

Madam Speaker, number six, if we could count them, is the second but last

WHEREAS or recital clause, "WHEREAS there is only $23 million budgeted in

this year's Budget for provincial roads which is completely

insufficient...", that is cast in a rather negative, derogatory style. We

are rather proud of the $23 million that we are spending.

The money that one spends on anything anywhere is relative to what you have.

When you look at the situation where we are, in a deficit position, that is

certainly a big contribution by this Province. Supposing the federal government,

who has balanced books and a surplus, were making an equal contribution, what

that would mean to this Province this year, and last year. So, Madam Speaker, in

terms of the Province's ability to pay, we believe that the $23 million seen

in that light is a rather large amount of money, and the government stretched

its financial resources to put that $23 million into roads in this Province, but

we did it because we realize how important it is.

Madam Speaker, I will be making an amendment to these two clauses in just a

moment. The other amendment that I want to make is to the resolution itself.

The resolution says, "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the government

negotiate a new cost-sharing agreement...". Madam Speaker, again the

suggestion almost is that we are not doing anything; that, as of this moment,

the provincial government negotiate. What we want included in that resolution is

the fact that we have been working towards this end for some time, Madam

Speaker. Long before this day we have been trying to negotiate a new

federal-provincial deal with the federal government for a roads program. We all

know that the time is right for that, and this government started back some time

knowing that the agreement that was negotiated by hon. members opposite, their

provincial colleagues, is coming to an end. This government did not wait until

this day to do that. We started that, so we want that reflected in the

resolution.

Madam Speaker, the amendments that I will make, I move, seconded by the

Member for -

I want to make sure that I have the right member here.

AN HON. MEMBER: Bonavista South.

MR. LUSH: Well, I am sure that he would probably go along with it, Madam

Speaker.

Seconded by the Member for Gander. The motion is: That the Motion be amended

by striking out the third and recital clauses.

These were the third and sixth recital clauses. These were the clauses to

which I referred: That the Motion be amended in the Resolution Clause by

striking out the words "the government negotiate" and by substituting

the words "the government continue to negotiate".

The resolution would then read, Madam Speaker: THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that

the government continue to negotiate a new cost-sharing agreement with the

quality of the Province's roads and highways up to North American standards

and contribute to the Province's overall productivity and competitiveness.

There are no major changes, Madam Speaker, just those slight amendments to

make it more acceptable to members on this side of the House.

I leave it to the Chair to decide whether the motions are in order.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I would like to rise to take

part in debate on this resolution today, that

talks about the reliance on roads as the transportation system within our

Province.

Madam Speaker, I would like to say that from representing Labrador West and

travelling throughout Labrador, all we have to travel on are gravel roads. This

leaves a lot to be desired at the best of times, and certainly leaves a lot to

be desired at certain times of the year, such as the springtime that is fast

approaching now, where we see the roads deteriorate to a point where it is

unsafe to travel on them and where there is a lot of damage inflicted on

vehicles. It can be a very costly trip to travel from Labrador West to Happy

Valley-Goose Bay. That is why it is important that this Province, and the

federal government, get together to negotiate a deal that will see Labrador put

on par with most of the Island portion of the Province, even, and certainly in

the rest of Canada, where we can have a paved road to drive over.

I want to say to the resolution, it talks about there are over 900 kilometres

of dirt road in the Province. I do not think that is accurate, Madam Speaker,

because in Labrador alone there are about 800 kilometres of gravel road.

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible) 900.

MR. COLLINS: It is definitely over 900. There is no question about that,

I say to the Member for Baie Verte. It is definitely much more than 900, Madam

Speaker, because there are over 800 in Labrador alone. The one thing that is

missing from Labrador - we have a lot of the other modern conveniences that most

people have, but we do not have any of that black stuff that you see out on the

roads out here, that you call pavement. Even if there are holes in it, we do not

have any of that either.

There is a great need for road improvements throughout Labrador. If you add

that to what is in the remainder of the Province, the gravel highways that exist

there, then we are probably talking in the neighbourhood of close to 2,000

kilometres of gravel roads within the entire Province.

Madam Speaker, I would say that the highway itself, at the present time, only

goes from Labrador West to Happy Valley-Goose Bay and from Cartwright down to L'Anse

au Clair, so there is this huge gap in the middle that needs to be completed.

Under this government's program, and the plan that they have laid out, that

will, at the best rate, take six years to complete. That is providing that there

are no difficulties encountered with the Environmental Impact Study that is

presently ongoing.

Madam Speaker, when we talk about roads and when we talk about a

transportation system, it certainly is a topic that I have spoken on many times

in this House and it is one that I will continue to speak on because of the need

that we have to access a road system whereby we can travel within our own

Province without having, as a necessity, to depend on air twelve months of the

year or without having to travel down through Quebec, New Brunswick or Nova

Scotia in order to get back within our own Province.

Madam Speaker, there is a need for this government to work closely with the

federal government to bring forth a deal that not only addresses the 900

kilometres of dirt roads and the 1,500 kilometres of twenty-five year old paved

roads on the Island portion of the Province - that is important, Madam Speaker,

but I would say it is also important that Labrador has a road connection that we

do not have at the present time, and the road system and network that we do have

be brought up to a national standard that will give us the ability to be able to

travel throughout the regions of Labrador, in the same manner and under the same

circumstances as people in the rest of this country have the opportunity to do,

without destroying their vehicle or leading to a major cause of accidents along

the roadway.

In line with transportation, Madam Speaker, I would like to also note that

today is the day that the tendering closes for providing communication phones,

satellite phones, to be used along the Trans-Labrador Highway. That tendering

should be open tomorrow morning. The successful tender should be known at that

time and I encourage the minister to get with this immediately, do not delay it

any longer. People need communication equipment along that road. We are fast

approaching a time of the year when it is going to be hazardous at the best of

times in traveling along that

section of highway. I say to the minister, it is

important that he not drag his feet on this, that the satellite phones be put in

place as expeditiously as possible so that people have a degree of comfort, have

the ability to call in an emergency that may save a life. I say to the minister

to do that expeditiously, do not drag his heels, get on with it, fill the tender

and provide the people with the tools that they need for their own safety and

comfort when they are traveling that highway.

I close, Madam Speaker, by saying that we look forward to the day when our

roads in Labrador are a national standard, where we can drive from point A to

point B, where we can drive from Labrador West right down to the Coast of

Labrador and cross over to the Island portion of the Province. We look forward

to that day being in the near future rather than later, but I am very hesitant.

With the program that is laid out and the number of years that is anticipated,

that is going to take some time. The faster that happens the better for all

concerned. I implore upon this government to do that at a faster rate then what

they have currently planned because it is necessary, it is crucial to the

economy and the development of Labrador, and it is also crucial to the needs of

the people, to be able to travel on a road where they do not have to risk their

lives while they are traveling.

So, with that, I will conclude. I know there are other speakers, Madam

Speaker. I will conclude my remarks by saying that this is a topic that I am

sure I will have many other opportunities to speak to in this House of Assembly

when we come back after the Easter break.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. George's-Stephenville East.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I just want to take a few minutes to speak on this bill and to say that we

are in need of a deal to negotiate with the federal government on our highways

in the Province, but you have to wonder where is the federal government today in

this Province. I have to tell you, I am one who has been around here a little

bit in the House of Assembly and I am poisoned with the federal government at

this point. I am getting to the point where you have to wonder what the term,

federal presence, means, because the airports are all given away and the

seaports are given away, or trying to be dumped off to port authorities in this

Province.

Right now, when we talk about transportation, we have Port Harmon in

Stephenville, one of the most important ports in the Province right now, handed

off to two individuals, handed off by a federal minister, with the objection of

the people of the Province. The people of the Province, including the Government

of the Province, have objected to David Collenette, the federal minister,

transferring that port. Against every objection of all of the residents, he has

gone ahead and done it and not listened to his federal minister from

Newfoundland and Labrador, not bothered to listen to his MP. So one wonders,

Madam Speaker, where is the federal government, because I am one who is coming

to that conclusion.

I tell you, when you look at the federal presence of this Province, when it

comes to transportation, it is probably nil or almost non-existent. Our

government is trying and the new minister, the Minister of Transportation, is

doing a good job of trying to get the federal government to listen. I think they

should get the federal leadership over with pretty soon because the government

has to start operating federally for the country, not just for Ontario and

Quebec, because it is getting ridiculous as far as I am concerned.

Here we are, a provincial government now has to take the federal government

to court because they did not follow their own government website for divesting

ports. It is absolutely ridiculous! I expect we are going to win in the court,

we hope so, but we have to go to court to get them to make common sense

decisions. It is to the point the federal government has to get its act together

when it comes to Newfoundland and Labrador, and they should do it soon, Madam

Speaker, especially when it comes to roads in this Province, this great piece of

geography that joined Confederation. You know, one wonders, these are the Terms

of Union joining Newfoundland and Labrador with Confederation. One wonders

anymore what they are worth, when you see the way we are being treated at this

point by our federal colleagues.

Somebody said to me a little while ago, our federal cousins - I tell you

what, I am looking up the family tree because I do not want them in my family

tree if this is going to keep up in Ottawa, I guarantee you that, because

Newfoundland and Labrador has to start getting treated better by the Government

time that they recognized: What is the contribution of Newfoundland and

Labrador? What is it that we bring to Canada? We bring a lot, Madam Speaker, and

we are all doing our best.

This government has really tried hard and is trying hard to convince the

federal ministers of the Crown and the House of Commons. But I tell you what,

there were previous governments here too who had the same problems with the

federal government that are up there of different stripes. We had the same

problem, but it is getting to the point of utter contempt that is being shown to

the taxpayers of Newfoundland and Labrador by the federal government -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: - and it is time for our federal representatives to come

to the table and get us a road deal that is worth us in this Province. It is not

just seven seats. It is a lot more than seven seats. It is hundreds of millions

of oil barrels. It is a lot of Churchill Falls' power. It is a lot of

resources that this Province has brought into Confederation, and it is time for

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: This resolution here - we support the basics of the

resolution to get a deal. I will just ask my federal colleagues in Ottawa, and I

will be asking them a lot more directly in the next little while, to start

treating this place with respect.

I am going to finish on this. Winston Churchill, one of the greatest

parliamentarians and politicians ever, once said: We do not covet anything from

any nation except their respect. I would say, Madam Speaker, it is time we got

some respect from Ottawa.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MS JONES: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I am pleased to rise today and speak to the private member's motion that

has been put forward by my colleague from Bonavista South. I think that this is

a good motion. I support the amendments that the Government House Leader has

made, and I think it is important that if we put forward this particular

resolution from the House today, that we do so united and under the terms and

conditions that we can all live by. Because it is important that we not

underestimate the meaning and the intention that this motion is providing to the

Madam Speaker, I live in a district in this Province that knows all too well

what the importance of roads mean to the progression of communities, to the

delivery of health care, to the delivery of education. It is unfortunate that it

is only in the recent years that we have learned that full value and full

appreciation.

Madam Speaker, Labrador's South Coast was long, long neglected. For many

years, decades and generations, while other people in this Province went with

highway infrastructure and roads, we went without. I can tell you, that it set

back communities in that area. It set them back for quite a long time but we are

playing catchup now, and we are doing so because of the generous support and the

commitment to transportation infrastructure that this government has shown.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Madam Speaker, I represent a district that, until a few years

ago, we always say we had fifty kilometres of pavement in fifty years. I can

tell you, that was not something that we praised. That was something we

criticized. Now, I can proudly stand in this House, on any given day, and say

that in the last four years we have built more than 250 kilometres of highway in

Southern Labrador.

Madam Speaker, we have been able to connect communities from Red Bay right up

to Cartwright. When we started to build highways back in 1998, it was the

intention of the government then that we would only connect the communities of

Lodge Bay, Mary's Harbour, Port Hope Simpson, Charlottetown and Cartwright but

since then we have been able to lobby and have this government provide funds to

build a road to the community of St. Lewis, which is now complete as well. Last

year, we announced monies to build a road to the community of Pinsent Arm. That

road got started last year. It is now under construction. This year we provided

money in the Budget to start the environmental assessment and the routing for

the construction of a road to the community of Williams Harbour.

Madam Speaker, I believe and I agree and I am firmly committed to ensure that

all communities in our Province, wherever physically and geographically

possible, should have road connections and road networks and they should have

the best possible roads that we can provide.

Madam Speaker, I can honestly tell you that for many years the people of

Labrador were held hostage because of transportation. They were held hostages in

their own communities and in their own regions. We had a Marine Atlantic

service, then we had a provincial marine service, and it was always considered

good enough for the people of Labrador that we would have a boat that would

leave Lewisporte and stop in every community on the way up, all the way to Nain.

It was good enough, Madam Speaker; that was the philosophy. For years and years

the people in Labrador's South Coast endured that kind of thought and that

kind of perspective on transportation, but, Madam Speaker, those days are coming

to an end. They are coming to an end, and I would say it's high time in this

Province that they do. Because, Madam Speaker, not only over the past four years

have we been able to construct roads into all of these communities along

Labrador's South Coast, for the first time in their history opening up one of

the last frontiers in Canada, for the first time in our lives seeing a tractor

trailer drive through our communities, for the first time in our lives seeing us

being able to ship fish out of our fish plants directly to the markets and being

able to be a competitive player in the economy of the Province of Newfoundland

and Labrador.

We have seen all of that happen through these roads, Madam Speaker, but the

other thing that we have seen happen is, we have seen an opportunity for the

future for these communities; communities where for years people saw no gains in

investing, no gains in choosing alternative transportation. Let the boat sail

out of Lewisporte, Madam Speaker. Let them sail out of there, that is good

enough. Well, it is not good enough and it is going to change, Madam Speaker,

because we are going to ensure that marine services now for Labrador are for the

people of Labrador, and that is the way that is should be.

We will start this year not only with the building and the opening up of the

roads in Cartwright but we will also run the marine service as a ferry service

from Cartwright to Goose Bay, Madam Speaker, because that is our road. That is

our road, the same as the roads that connect all the other communities across

this Province.

I was disappointed, very disappointed, with some of the members opposite when

they took the perspective -

MADAM SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that her time is up.

MS JONES: Already, Madam Speaker?

If I could just clue up for one minute, Madam Speaker, please?

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the member have a moment to conclude?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

MADAM SPEAKER: By leave.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS JONES: I say to the Member for Ferryland that I have few choice

phrases for you, too, my dear, but they will wait until we get into the full

debate because I do not have enough time today to really get into it.

Madam Speaker, to just conclude, I would like to say that it is time that the

Newfoundland and Labrador, that it is time that they designate the Labrador

highways as part of the Trans-Canada Highway system so it becomes part of the

full national highway network, and that they need to be able to do partnerships

with our Province to ensure that we do have good roads to service the people of

this Province so that they can become competitive players in the Canadian

economy.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. Barbe.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. YOUNG: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I, too, would like to get up and have a few words to support a motion that

was put forward by the Member for Bonavista South.

It is a very important issue in the District of St. Barbe. Roads had been an

issue when I got involved, and long before I got involved. Certainly, in my

political time here, roads have been an issue that has been ongoing.

I think the roads tell a story that is bigger, how government has gone out

there and have governed places like the Northern Peninsula. I think there are

two indicators. One is the past and how our roads ended up in the condition they

are, and how they are a deterrent for us to move ahead into the future.

Many times I have spoken here and I have always gotten up and spoken about

the impact that the trucking of unprocessed raw materials is having on the

roads. We have had the shrimp industry, which came to be a great boost to the

economy of this Province. It was adjacent to the shores of the Northern

Peninsula, was landed and then trucked over our roads. In so doing, it had a

very big impact on the destruction of our roads. We went out there and,

naturally, tried to maintain the jobs in our neighbourhood as much as possible.

We went out there and tried to force government to go out and put scales on the

roads so that any of the trucking that was happening on the roads out there

could be managed properly. At least they could abide by the law of the land.

Instead of that, we were unsuccessful in ever getting a scale put in place.

As a result of that, we saw the scales - if you were trucking shrimp east from

the Northern Peninsula - were as far away as Grand Falls. If a truck left St.

Anthony with a full load of ice, by the time it got that far half of the ice had

been melted and then was able to pass those scales. Because of that, I think our

roads ended up deteriorating very fast. The damage that has been done in the

last few years has been considerable. I think, with the extra added new traffic

that we had, we ended up at the end of the life of the pavement. If we had been

able to maintain it, take care of it and nurse it along, I think we may have

been able to have a much better road today. I think because of the extra traffic

that was overweight on a continuous basis day after day through the summer, and

I might also add, in the early spring when the roads were not dried out and

settled down, those were the impacts that had taken the highway we had there;

which was a very good highway, deteriorating, no doubt, because of the age, but

at a slower rate, has left us with a road now that is in very poor condition.

I think the other part of the story, as well, is the opportunities for the

future. I think the opportunity for the Northern Peninsula after the cod

moratorium was certainly the tourism. It was a good fit, everybody agreed. With

the cluster of attractions that we have on the Northern Peninsula, it was an

ideal place for tourism to work in this Province. It was said: If it could not

work on the Northern Peninsula then tourism could not work anywhere in this

Province; because of what we have to offer, from the clusters we have had with

Gros Morne and L'Anse aux Meadows, Port aux Choix and Red Bay, all in a

cluster there with many other attractions that we have developed since. Those

are the (inaudible) attractions that was spread out through the Northern

Peninsula. It has certainly given us a great opportunity for the future.

I guess the thing is now, the biggest question mark that we have is: Are

people going to continue to come? We have gone out there. We have made massive

investments as a government, and as private investment, into the hospitality

industry and into those main attractions. Yet, we do not know if there is going

to be a payback. There may be a day, very near, when they are going to say: We

can't come and visit your sites anymore because it is not really accessible.

The damage we are doing to our equipment to come there are not worth coming to

your attractions. They are worth coming now. People are coming from all over the

world. People are amazed at what we have to offer, but yet, the feedback we are

getting is that something has to be done. You just cannot be inaccessible and

hope to make a living from the tourism industry.

My background has been in the hospitality industry. I had an operator say to

me at one point after I got elected, he said: I think you should have at least a

standard seven years after you put up a bump sign that it would be worth

repairing that particular bump. I think that should be a standard you should try

to achieve. It was sort of in a joking way, but nonetheless, that operator from

the time he had arrived had a warning sign posted at a particular spot that was

still there seven years later. He did not think that was an acceptable means of

managing your highway system.

I bring it up because tourism has been certainly a big part of where we want

to go and we have agreed and bought into it. I have gone down that road ever so

far, but like I said, it tells us a story. It is a bigger story. It is a bigger

(inaudible) than that, that the roads were destroyed and taking out a resource,

an opportunity for us to make a living and have a better standard of living. At

the same time, stopping us from having an opportunity to move in a different

direction, away from our resource of the fishery, which was ever so important,

and it still is so important, but by having another industry to take the burden

and replace the job load away from the fishery and the primary resource to a

secondary industry like tourism, that kind of development, is very unfortunate.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member his time is up.

MR. YOUNG: Very good. Just to clue up for a second.

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have time to -

MR. YOUNG: I would just like to point out, it is also the cost. I think

that we can never forget - when you have a road that is in a deplorable

condition like we do have in certain sections along the Northern Peninsula in

the District of St. Barbe, is the cost of maintaining your machine. You go out

there and you do damage and that cost is ever so considerable, and much more

noticeable when you go out there and the opportunity to make a living is that

much less by not having the job opportunities that a good highway would give

you. That added burden by not having maybe the income that you should have and

then having the extra cost of maintaining your vehicle is somewhat unfair.

Thank you.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. REID: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

MR. HUNTER: (Inaudible).

MR. REID: I am sorry, Madam Speaker. I will defer to him and I will speak

after.

MADAM SPEAKER: I am sorry.

The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

It is a privilege today to get up and have a few words to say about this

resolution. I would like to congratulate my colleague from Bonavista South for

bringing forth this resolution today. It is time to recognize the problems that

we do have in our transportation system, particularly our roads in the Province,

Madam Speaker. Yes, it is true that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador do

depend heavily on our road system, not only for transportation, but for

businesses, our health care and tourism, and, as the resolution stated, the

basic way of life in this Province. Because with our kids today travelling

longer distances to schools on buses, we need to recognize that the roads have

to be in very good shape so that they would have that safe environment in which

to travel.

Also, Madam Speaker, our seniors today have to travel longer distances to

avail of health care services and other services in the Province, so we have to

recognize the importance of having a good road system. Our road system today is

mostly over twenty-five years old, the paving part of it, and we recognize that

it is going to take a lot of dollars.

In the resolution it says $300 million. Madam Speaker, I would say $300

million would only just barely bring it up to scratch, and every year we need to

spend a considerable amount of money. The Budget this year allowed for $23

million to address our provincial roads system. Twenty-three million dollars is

not going to do very much. The minister alluded to it, that it was $1 million

more this year over last year. That $1 million is not going to be doing very

much for the forty-eight districts in this Province. I doubt if it will even

repair a few potholes in each district. We have to look at this issue and make

sure that the 1,500 kilometres of twenty-five-year-old paved roads in this

Province and 900 kilometres of dirt roads in this Province have to be addressed.

In my district, Route 380 and Route 381 and Route 390, the roads are over

twenty-five years old. They need to be desperately done soon. These roads are

getting into a deteriorated state where the people in the travelling public find

themselves in dire need of repairs, very expensive repairs. The people of my

district feel that they pay taxes on gas, licence fees and taxes in the

community to get services from the government, and they feel that the taxes and

service fees they pay should give them good roads that they need on which to

travel.

I say, Madam Speaker, if we are serious about doing this, then we need - as

the minister amended the resolution to say continue - we need a very forceful

presentation. We need something more than just asking the federal government for

a roads agreement. We need to demand from the federal government in this

country, that we need more money from Ottawa. We need a good provincial-federal

roads agreement to address these problems, not $23 million per year but a lot

more.

Even the former minister, the Minister of Transportation, when he first

became minister, said that in this next budget we have coming there will be more

money, double. If I am there, he said, there will be a double amount of money in

the budget for roads agreements. Madam Speaker, I do not think $23 million is

double what it was a year or so ago.

The politicians in this Province are going to have to get more forceful. The

ministers, the government, are going to have to get more forceful with our

federal government and say to the federal government: We need this. We deserve

it. We have paid into this country for many years. We tolerated the conditions

of the roads. We tolerated the way the federal government has been treating this

Province, but we are not going to tolerate it any more. We are going to pressure

this government in Ottawa to make sure that this money is available to our

Province.

The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture alluded to the fact that people

were hostages in our Province. Madam Speaker, that is so true. We are hostages

in places where roads are that bad when people have to consider: Well, I do not

think I am going to travel over this road because I am not sure it is going to

be safe for me to go over the road.

That alone makes people in this Province hostages. I think that is a crime in

this day and age, in this era of time when other things and services in the

world are provided so easily, that we have to have people in this Province

feeling that they are hostages in their own community. We should not accept this

concept. Every member of this House, every member, every minister, should be

lobbying our federal members, we should be putting pressure on our federal

members, to make sure that Ottawa sits down with our minister, our government,

and says we are going to treat you fairly. We are going to treat you equal to

any other province in this country, and we are going to make sure that the

people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador do not feel like hostages in

their communities.

We cannot afford to do that anymore, Madam Speaker, because our Province - as

this resolution says, we need a good road system for the productivity and the

competitiveness of the people in this Province to make sure that we are viable

and to stay in this Province and our communities for a long time.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

It is certainly a pleasure for me today to rise and talk about transportation

in our Province. Representing a district with thirty-nine communities on four

islands, two of which are accessible by our ferry service, two different

ferries, it is certainly an issue that is near and dear to my heart and the

people I represent.

I listened to the members opposite when they all talked about the need for

more money for roads. I would love - this government and everyone in it - to

have more money for roads. The issue with the federal government is obviously a

big one in that we continuously make the case for more money for roads in our

Province; roads that we deserve, being part of the Canadian federation. It seems

to have fallen on deaf ears, not just in recent years, Madam Speaker, but it

seems to have been the case since 1949.

I hear my hon. members opposite sometimes talk about it was the Tory

government in Ottawa that rebuilt our Trans-Canada Highway. I have to let them

know, Madam Speaker, the Tory government in Ottawa did not rebuild our

Trans-Canada Highway. The Tory government in Ottawa had an obligation to

continue to subsidize the train system in this Province, and continue to do it

in perpetuity. Unfortunately, when we sold the train to Ottawa, we only got one

lump sum and that has been spent upgrading the highway. That highway will not

last forever and we will eventually have to find the money to recap that road.

Madam Speaker, I would rather talk about my district, because when I went to

teach on New World Island, which was in the District of Twillingate back in 1982

- and I would like for the hon. members opposite to note the dates - in 1982

there was one road paved in that district, Twillingate district, which

encompassed Twillingate and New World Island. That was the main road across the

Island, across New World Island to Twillingate Island. You have to remember,

that was in 1982, ten years after the Tory government took power. The only road

that was paved was one that Joey Smallwood had paved before he left power in

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. REID: The Member for Windsor-Springdale, I listened to him speak,

without heckling him, and I wish he would afford me the same opportunity.

That was in 1982, Madam Speaker, and in 1989 when the Tories left, guess

what? The on