Manitoba Hansard — 17 August 2000 (Sitting 80B, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-80b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 808-1:30 p.m., Thursday, August 17, 2000 (REPRINT) ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERlLLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HlCKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Ross mere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

5235 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, August 17, 2000 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Gaming Licences Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): I beg to present, Mr. Speaker, the petition of Brenda Lesage, Tessa Fehler, David Klassen and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Government to hold plebiscites in affected communities before any new gaming licences are issued in the province of Manitoba. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Ron Phelps, Gerry Langhon, Richard Paetkau and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Government to consider holding plebiscites in affected communities before any new gaming licences are issued in the province of Manitoba. Bi11 12- The Public Schools Amendment Act Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Juliana Cameron, George McCall, Carol McCall and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education (Mr.

Caldwell) withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Bill 12- The Public Schools Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the petition. It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed ] Will the Clerk please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticipation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUM BLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), I have reviewed the petition. It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

5236 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17, 2000 THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely aff ect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticipation oj Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely aff ect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and eff ectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent antici pation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Southdale (Mr. Reimer), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and eff ectiveness of home-school families; and

August 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5237 THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent antici pation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), pursuant to authorities and practices of the House, I now report that I have examined the petition and find the petitioners have not complied with the authorities and practices in the following respect. According to our Rule 94(8), no petition shall be received if it prays for any expenditure, grant or charge on the public review whether payable out of the consolidated fund or out of monies to be provided to the Assembly. Therefore [interjection} *( 13 :35) This particular petition is in order. I have reviewed the petition.

It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely aff ect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and eff ectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent antici pation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed] The Clerk please read.

Madam Clerk: To the Legislature of the Pro vince of Manitoba The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent

523 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17, 2000 anticipation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the free doms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUM BLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith), I have reviewed the petition.

It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agre ed] Would the Clerk please read.

Madam Clerk: To the Legislature of the Pro vince of Manitoba The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent antici pation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUM BLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely aff ect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and eff ectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent antici pation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. * (1 3 :40) Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan), I have reviewed the

August 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5239 petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adverse ly aff ect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and eff ectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent antici pation of Bill 12 being passed. which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRA Y THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Daryl Reid (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you might canvass the House to see if I might have leave to introduce the Third Report of the Industrial Relations Committee. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave to introduce the Third Report of the Industrial Relations? An Honourable Member: Not yet. Mr.

Speaker: The Member does not have leave. Leave has been denied. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Co. Hon. Becky Ba rrett (Minister of Labour ): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Mr. Speaker, I rise today with tragic news. Sadly I must inform the House of the death of Steve Ewing last night. Mr. Ewing was one of the four workers critically injured following an explosion at Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting on August 8. I am sure the members of this Assembly will join me in expressing our heartfelt sympathies to Mr. Ewing's family, friends and co-workers.

We wish them strength and endurance during this difficult time. Three of the twelve workers who were injured in the accident remain in critical condition, and we continue to hope for the best possible outcome for them and their families. On behalf of all of us in the Chamber, I want to express our appreciation to all the health care and emergency workers who responded to the accident, cared for Mr. Ewing, and are continuing to take care of his co-workers. I know this incident has been a terrible shock to the community. The death of a young man in a workplace accident is a tragedy felt by all of us.

In Flin Flon, workers and their families are struggling to deal with the trauma left by this accident. With the support of their neighbours and the community at large, may they soon be granted peace and healing. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for the statement.

I know all of us in our caucus want to join with all members of the Legislature, all members of our Manitoba community as we express our deep felt sympathy for the family of Steve Ewing, for his relatives, his friends and his co-workers that have been impacted in a very significant way as a result of this untimely death.

5240 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17 , 2000 We do know that there are still families that are dealing with the issues of critically ill loved ones and friends, and our thoughts and prayers are with them also today as they continue to live through this tragedy. We do want to add, too, our thanks to all of those that have been involved in any way in the issues that have faced many, whether they be trying to deal with the clean-up or deal with those that have been severely impacted.

We want to join and ensure that we continue to hold out hope for those that are still suffering through this tragic incident. Thank you. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for leave to comment on the Minister's statement. Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Gerrard: I join with all the rest of the colleagues in the Legislature in expressing sympathy for the family of Steve Ewing and the relatives. It has been a terrible tragedy. We hope for the best for the three who remain in critical condition.

We are thankful for those who have worked so hard on their behalf to provide help to all those who were injured in any way in the accident. It is an opportunity to dedicate ourselves to better safety in all our workplaces in Manitoba, and I think it comes at a poignant moment because on the other side of the globe there are many individuals under the sea in a submarine. We are all praying and hoping for their well being as well. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): I am pleased today to table the Annual Report of Le Centre Culture!

Franco-Manitobain for the year 19 99-2000. *** Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Is there leave of the House to revert to Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to revert back to Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees? [Agre ed] PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Industrial Relations Third Report Mr. Daryl Reid (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations): Mr.

Speaker, I am wondering whether or not you would canvass the House to determine whether or not I have leave to introduce the Third Report of the Industrial Relations Committee. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave to introduce the report for the Industrial Relations Committee? [Agreed ] * (13: 45) Mr. Reid: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thanks to members of the House. I beg to present the Third Report of the Committee on Industrial Relations. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Industrial Relations presents- An Honourable Member: Dispense.

Your Standing Committee on Industrial Rela tions presents the following as its Third Report. Your committee met on Monday, August 14, 2000, at 6:30p.m., Tuesday, August 15, 2000, at 10 a.m., Tuesday, August 15, 2000, at 6:30p.m., and Wednesday, August 16, 2000, at 3 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. At the Monday, August 14, 2000, at 6:30 p.m. meeting, Mr. Smith (Brandon West) moved that time allowed be 15 minutes for presentations, 5 minutes for questions. The motion was agreed to. At the Tuesday, August 15, 2000, at 6:30 p.m. meeting, Mr.

Smith (Brandon West) moved that the committee sits until all presentations are

August 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 524 1 the committee sits until all presentations are complete. The motion was agreed to on a counted vote. At that meeting, Hon. Mr. Sale moved

whereas all registered presenters have been heard, I move that public presentations on the Bill 44 now be concluded. The motion was agreed to on a counted vote (yeas 6, nays 4). At the Monday, August 14, 2000, at 6:30p.m., Tuesday, August 15, 2000, at 10 a.m., and Tuesday, August 15, 2000, at 6:30 p.m. meetings, your committee heard representation on bills as follows: Bill 18-T he Labour Relations Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les relations du travail Roger Cameron -Railway Association of Canada Gordon Peters - CANDO Contracting Doug Oschewski- Canadian Autoworkers Union Wendy Sol- Communications. Energy and Paperworkers Union Canada AI Cerilli - Manitoba Federation of Union Retirees Rob Hilliard- Manitoba Federation of Labour Bill 44- The Labour Relations Amendment Act (2}; Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur les relations du travail Gordon Peters - CANDO Contracting, Joyce Reynolds Canadian Restaurant Association, Jan Speelman- Manitoba Teacher's Society, Roy Eyjolfson - Seagram Company Limited, Gimli, Heather Ostop- Private Citizen, Peter Woolford - Retail Council of Canada and Retail Merchants Association of Manitoba, Robert Desjarlais- United Steel Workers Union Loca/ 6166, Sidney Green - Private Citizen, Irene Merie and Murray Siegler - Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, Rob Hilliard- Manitoba Federation of Labour, Jim Carr - Business Council of Manitoba, Candace Bishoff - Manitoba Employers Council, Dan Overall Manitoba Chambers of Commerce, Edward Huebert - Mining Association of Manitoba, Brenda Andre - Perkins Family Restaurants, Terry Cooper - Manitoba Association of School Trustees, Jim Baker - Manitoba Hotel Association, Paul Moist - Canadian Union of Public Employees, Dan Kelly Canadian Federation of Independent Business, Peter Wightman Construction Labour Relations Association of Manitoba, Bernard Christophe - United Food and Commercial Workers Union Loca/832, Colin Robinson -Private Citizen, Randy Porter - Portage Labour Council, Chris Christenson - South Eastern Manitoba Labour Council, Grant Ogonowski - Private Citizen, Roland Boisvert - Manitoba French Chamber of Commerce, Ron Hambly Winnipeg Construction Association, George Floresco - Canadian Union of Postal Workers, David Condon - Canadian Union of Postal Workers - Prairie Region, Brian Short - International Association of Machinists and Aero Space Workers, Grant Mitchell- Private Citizen, George Fraser - Manitoba Home Builders Association, Maureen Hancharyk- Manitoba Nurses' Union, James Hogaboam -D elivery Drivers Alliance of Manitoba, Kenneth Emberly - Citizens for Democracy and Less Poverty, Darlene Dziewit - Private Citizen, Julie Sheeska - Private Citizen, Joy Ducharme - Private Citizen, Alice Ennis -Private Citizen, Kelly Gaspur- Private Citizen, Colin Trigwell- Private Citizen, Graham Starmer - Coalition of Manitoba Businesses, Gerry Roxas - Communications, Energy and Paper Workers Union of Canada Local 830, Dale Paterson - Canadian Auto Workers, Maria Soares - Union of Needle Trades, Industrial and Textile Employees Loca/45 9, Neal Curry- Westland Plastics Ltd.,

5242 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17, 2000 Bob Dolyniuk- Manitoba Truckers Association, Lydia Kubrakovich and Krishna Lalbiharie - Canadian Federation of Students, Todd Scarth - Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, Albert Cerilli - Manitoba Federation of Union Retirees, Peter 0/fert- Manitoba Government Employees Union, John Godard- Private Citizen, Mario M Javier - Private Citizen, Thomas Novak and Margot Lavoie-Manitoba Oblates- Justice and Peace Committee, Larry Mcintosh - Private Citizen, David Newman -Private Citizen, Rod Giesbrecht - Private Citizen, Robert D.

Ziegler- Private Citizen, Written Submissions: Bill 44-The Labour Relations Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur les relations du travail Bryan Walton- Canadian Council Of Grocery Distributors Keith McDougall- Canadian Federation Of Independent Grocers Shirley Canty -M anitoba Motor Dealers Association Jonas Sammons- Alliance of Manufacturers and Exporters Canada Ilene Lecker - Private Citizen George Bergen - Private Citizen United Steel Workers of America Bob Stevens - Manitoba Restaurant Association David Martin -M anitoba Building Trades Council Ron Teeple -B randon District Labour Council Your committee has considered: Bill I 8-T he Labour Relations Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les relations du travail and has agreed to report the same, without amendment, on a counted vote (yeas 6, nays 3). Your committee has also considered: and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments, on a counted vote (yeas 6, nays 4) : MOTION: THAT

section 3 of the Bill be replaced by the following: 3 Subsection 12(2} is amended by striking out everything after "employee" and substituting "was because of conduct of the employee that was related to the strike or lockout and resulted in a conviction for an offtnce under the Criminal Code (Canada) and, in the opinion of the board, would be just cause for dismissal of the employee even in the context of a strike or lockout." MOTION: THAT the proposed subsection 40(1), as set out in subsection 6(1) of the Bill, be amended by striking out everything before item 1 and substituting the following: Certification, representation vote, or dismissal 40(1) Subject to this Part, when the board receives an application for certification and is satisfied that the employees were not subject to intimidation, fraud, coercion or threat and that their wishes for union representation were expressed freely as required by

section 45, the board shall do the following when it receives an application for certification: MOTION: THAT the proposed clause 69(1){b), as set out in subsection 10(1) of the Bill, be struck out and the following substituted: {

b) in the case of the construction industry, of the members of the union in the craft unit; MOTION: THAT

section 23 of the Bill be replaced with the Bill 44 - The Labour Relations Amendment Act following: (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur les relations du travail 23 The following is added after

section 87:

August 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5243 SETTLEMENT OF SUBSEQUENT AGREEMENTS Dispute about subsequent agreements 87.1(1) Where a collective agreement has expired and a strike or lockout has commenced, the employer or the bargaining agent for a unit may apply in writing to the board to settle the provisions of a collective agreement if (

a) at least 60 days have elapsed since the strike or lockout commenced; (

b) the parties have attempted to conclude a new collective agreement with the assistance of a conciliation officer or mediator for at least 30 days during the period of the strike or lockout; and (

c) the parties have not concluded a new collective agreement. Notice 87.1(2) The board shall promptly notify the parties when it receives an application. Board to determine if good faith bargaining 87.1(3) On receiving an application, the board shall inquire into negotiations between the parties and determine (

a) whether or not they are bargaining in good faith in accordance with subsection 63(1); and (

b) whether or not they are likely to conclude a collective agreement within 30 days if they continue bargaining. Discretion of board 87.1(4) The board may delay making a deter mination under subsection (3) until it is satisfied that the party making the application has bargained sufficiently and seriously with respect to those provisions of the collective agreement that are in dispute between the parties.

No settlement if good faith bargaining and agreement is likely 87.2(1) If the board finds under subsection 87.1 (3) that the parties are bargaining in good faith and are likely to conclude a collective agreement within 30 days if they continue bargaining, it shall decline to settle the pro- visions of a collective agreement between them and notify them of that fact. The board may, however, appoint a board representative, or request the minister to appoint a conciliation officer, to confer with the parties to assist them in settling the provisions of a collective agreement.

New application if no agreement within further 30days 87.2(2) If 30 days have elapsed since notice was given under subsection (1) and the parties have failed to conclude a collective agreement, either party may make a new application to the board under subsection 8 7.1 (1). Settlement 87.3(1) If the board finds under subsection 87.1 (3) that a party is not bargaining in good faith, or that the parties are bargaining in good faith but are unlikely to conclude a collective agreement within 30 days if they continue bargaining, (

a) the employees shall immediately terminate the strike, or the employer shall immediately terminate the lockout; (

b) the employer shall reinstate the employees as provided for in subsection 87(5); and (

c) the provisions of a collective agreement between the parties shall be settled (

i) by an arbitrator, if the parties serve a notice of their wish for arbitration under subsection (2), or (ii) by the board within 90 days of its finding, in any other case. Arbitration 87.3(2) Within I 0 days after a finding by the board that a party is not bargaining in good faith, or that the parties are bargaining in good faith but are unlikely to conclude a collective agreement through further bargaining, the employer and the bargaining agent may serve a notice on the board stating that they wish to have the collective agreement settled by arbitration. The notice must name a person who has agreed to act as arbitrator.

5244 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17, 2000 Arbitrator to settle collective agreement 87.3(3) The arbitrator shall settle the provisions of the collective agreement within 60 days after notice is served on the board under subsection (2). Arbitration provisions of this Act apply 87.3(4) The provisions of this Act respecting arbitration apply, with necessary modifications, to an arbitrator acting under this section. Term of collective agreement 87.3(5) A collective agreement settled by an arbitrator or the board under this

section is eff ective for a period of one year following the expiry date of the previous collective agreement, or for any longer period the parties agree to. Collective agreement binding 87.3(6) A collective agreement settled under this

section is binding on the parties and on the employees in the unit as though it were a collective agreement voluntarily entered into between the parties, but the parties may nevertheless amend its provisions by a subse quent written agreement. Subsections 87(6) and (8) apply 87.3(7) Subsections 87(6) and (8) apply, with necessary changes, to the settlement of a collective agreement under this section.

Review 87.4 The minister shall request the Manitoba Labour Management Review Committee to review the operation of sections 87.1 to 87.3 at least once in each 24-month period after those sections come into force and provide a report to the minister setting out their findings. The minister shall table the report in the Legislative Assembly as soon as possible after receiving it.

MOTION: THAT the proposed subsection 130(1), as set out in subsection 27(1) of the Bill, be struck out and replaced with the following: Referral of grievance to board 130(1) When an employee in a unit bound by a collective agreement, or the bargaining agent, initiates a grievance under the agreement, the bargaining agent may refer the grievance, including any question about its arbitrability, to the board to be dealt with in accordance with this section. Mr. Reid: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West (Mr. Smith), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Government of Manitoba Agenda Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Over the last I 0 months, we have seen this Premier stumble his way from one issue to the next. We have seen him break election promises time and time again, whether they be on health care, whether it be on support to farmers, whether it be creating a fiasco of the aboriginal casino issue. We have seen him force a minister to resign. We have seen his staff and his ministers break the law. We have seen this Premier introduce gag laws.

We have seen this Premier take away Manitobans' democratic rights to a secret ballot. Mr. Speaker, the only promise we have seen this Premier keep is the promise that was made behind closed doors to his brothers and sisters in solidarity with the introduction of Bill 44. Mr. Speaker, under the blue suit it is clear that today's Premier is yesterday's union boss, and once a union boss, always a union boss. Will the Premier today now admit the truth to Manitobans that his government's agenda is being driven by Bernie Christophe, Rob Hilliard and his union boss friends? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable First Minister.

An Honourable Member: He already an swered. He said no. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I did answer and said no, but while I am on my feet- Mr. Speaker: Order. When the Minister answered, I did not recognize the Honourable First Minister. I am recognizing the Honourable First Minister now.

August 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5245 Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, and, yes, it was a year ago today when the election was called in the province of Manitoba and it was a year ago tomorrow where we put forward our five-point plan. Today I have just received information from the Conference Board of Canada where they have revised upwards the growth predictions for Manitoba in terms of economic growth. In fact, in the spring of this year they predicted a 2.5% growth for Manitoba.

They have now adjusted it up, in August of this year, to be some 2.9 percent, and they are predicting in the year 2001 the investment growth will increase by over 6 percent. So, Mr. Speaker- An Honourable Member: Through government spending and hiring. * (13 :50 ) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, these predictions are in the private sector, but I am sure members opposite do not read these predictions.

I am pleased to say that the biggest challenge we have and one of the legacies we have to deal with is the fact that we had the lowest number of people between the ages of 18 and 25 years of age in post-secondary education when we came into office. We now have a situation, and again the Conf erence Board confirms we have a situation in Manitoba where the number of people getting jobs will outstrip the growth in the labour force, so that is why we have a real challenge.

I think it was identified in the media yesterday, our biggest challenge in Manitoba is to get more of our young people trained and skilled to stay in Manitoba to work in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, it was a year ago tomorrow that we promised to provide hope to young people. I am pleased that we have come through with tuition fee cuts, with expansion of com munity college programs and other hope and opportunity for young people, which is good for our youth and good for the economy. Government of Manitoba Agenda Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr.

Speaker, in an editorial in yesterday's paper entitled Who runs Manitoba?, it states that the Premier told several audiences during last fall's election campaign that he had no agenda of labour relations law changes, that he would leave labour relations alone. This was reported to the editorial board of the Winnipeg Free Press, and it says his answers were clear and reassuring. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier if he would confirm that he made these statements to the editorial board of the Winnipeg Free Press and indeed he has misled Manitobans about his real agenda. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, it was in this Legislature in 1996 that we voted against Bill 26, as it was introduced by members opposite. We spoke against it. The questions we were asked in the election campaign dealt with the specific issues of anti-replacement worker legislation and reintroduction of final offer selection. We said we were not going to do that in government and that any change we would make in the labour-management relations in Manitoba would be referred to the Labour Management Review Committee.

We also recognize that, hopefully, if there were any referrals to the Labour Management Review Committee, there would be a consensus. There was a consensus in about seven out of ten areas, and there was not a consensus in three other areas, all of wnich we proposed positive amendments yesterday in the Legislature. Those amendments, I think, go a long way to listening to Manitobans in the province. The last negative drum members opposite were beating a couple of weeks ago was dealing with tax cuts.

The Conference Board of Canada goes on to say that not only will the employment growth continue to grow, not only would investment continue to grow, not only will they revise their estimates of growth up, they are saying that because of the tax cuts in the provincial budget and in the federal budget, those tax cuts will result in more disposable income for Manitobans and an increase in retail sales in Manitoba. Government of Manitoba Agenda Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, under the Filmon government, we have seen the

5246 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17, 2000 economy grow by unprecedented levels over the last five years, and under that strong head of steam, the economy continues to grow, as confirmed today by the Premier. My question to him today is: If it ain't broke, why break it? * (13 :55) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Member must have rehearsed that for hours before he provided that. Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to disappoint members opposite, but last year the growth rate was quite a bit lower than what it is projected to be in this year's economy, and the projections that were made by independent growth rating agencies have now improved. That follows a report last week from the Dominion Bond Rating agency which again recognized the improved situation here in Manitoba in terms of economic activity and growth. We believe that a year ago tomorrow we made five commitments to the people of Manitoba We promised to improve health care.

We promised to improve the education and training area and provide more hope for young people. We promised to reduce property taxes through an introduction of a property tax credit, and we promised to keep Hydro kept by Manitobans. When we look at those commitments, we have combined the two health authorities to save $800,000 in administrative costs that were being levied on the people of Manitoba just a year ago. We have had the best im provement in hallway medicine reductions, based on independent reports. We have a five-point plan to retrain and rehire nurses, not fire them like members opposite.

That is another commitment we made. We continue to work and succeed in cancelling the horrible frozen food experiment foisted on us by members opposite. We have cancelled the SmartHealth program that has cost Manitobans $35 mill ion. We have introduced protection of people in care in personal care homes. We have announced a major cardiac program for our patients. We have approved brachy therapy and other means for prostate cancer, Mr. Speaker, and the list of promises in health care just keeps going on and on, promises made, promises kept in terms of health care. In terms of education and training, Mr.

Speaker, for the first time in years, students will have a decrease in their tuition fee going into this student year. For the first time in years, we will have increased the numbers of students that go to our community colleges with also a decrease in tuition fees. Contrary to what the members opposite did in '96, Manitoba Hydro, with its great revenues from the Limestone development, those revenues are being used by all Manitobans for the benefit of all Manitobans, and we are not selling off Crown assets as members opposite did in 1996. Finally, Mr. Speaker- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Doer: We can hear Batman and Robin from back here, Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, with all due respect, the Honourable First Minister does have Leader's latitude, and we clearly understand that, but I do believe the First Minister will also have many opportunities this afternoon to enter into debate if he wants to, and I do believe that is what he is attempting to do now during Question Period, when we as Opposition only have a short period of 40 minutes.

If this Honourable First Minister is prepared to give us an extension to an hour, Mr. Speaker, I am willing to sit and listen to him for a little while. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the Official Opposition House Leader, it is not a point of order. I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members, when referring to other members, please refer to them by their constituencies or ministers by their titles. All members are honourable members in this Chamber.

August 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5247 * * * Mr. Doer: I will withdraw those comments to my friends opposite. Mr. Speaker, in continuation of my answer, back to the fifth promise that we made that we would balance the Budget and reduce property taxes in Manitoba. The $75 that we introduced for every householder, and will be in the income tax for apartment renters, has resulted in reduced property taxes in Manitoba. I remember the days, every year receiving in my home an increased taxation rate based on education cuts and cuts to the public education system.

We have not only increased the investment in public education, but we have decreased the taxes by reducing the property taxes by increasing the property tax credit $75 per household. Another promise made, another promise kept. Labour Relations Act Amendments-Withdrawal Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I join with many, many citizens of Manitoba who wish this Premier would take time out from patting himself on the back and deal with the real issues of the day which are the damage that he and his Labour Minister (Ms. Barrett) have done to the business climate in this province.

That is the issue we should be dealing with. This Premier promised to work with business. Clearly, it is just lip service. He has demonstrated that he is still a labour boss, still a labour leader to the core, so much so that he has turned his back on business. * (14:00) My question to this First Minister is: Will he do the right thing and set aside Bill 44, let business and labour come together and try and repair the damage that he has done to the business climate in this province? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I had the opportunity to meet with the CEO today, talking and working with a major investment in Manitoba.

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to meet with another group of corporate executives and CEOs, another major investment that we are discussing in Manitoba. The day before we had another discussion with a group on, again, another major investment. These announce ments, or potential announcements, are not even in the public arena yet. So there is a lot of optimism in Manitoba. There were some concerns raised by busi ness about some parts of the Bill. We have amended the

section dealing with Criminal Code issues on the picket line, and it was good advice from the business community in that regard. Secondly, we have improved the expedited sections of the Act. Both business and labour will save greater costs for lawyers and be able to spend that on customers and people, again, a recommendation that received a great deal of consensus from both business and labour in an amendment we made yesterday. We have dealt with the issue of the two employee votes, as members opposite have suggested, another positive idea that we looked at from people.

We have also reinforced the idea that coercion and intimidation are not acceptable in a free and democratic society, put that in law so that any application can and will be dismissed if that takes place. So, we believe, as the Oblate Fathers said yesterday or the day before, these are very minor changes to help those people who are the lowest on the economic ladder get some support in our society. Labour Relations Act Amendments- Withdr awal Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Premier for his comments · from the Conference Board which show, in spite of his actions and his government's actions, the momentum of the last few years continues to carry this province forward in terms of consistent tax reductions, balanced budgets, access to capital, a number of initiatives that have been in place over the last few years. I remind the Premier that today companies and individuals are lining up to comment on the economic disaster-in-waiting, which is Bill 44. We know that businesses are considering leaving if this bill passes, and we know that young people may also leave.

They have lost faith in this Premier and this government, and what they

5248 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17, 2000 are questioning is who is really running our province, the province of Manitoba today. I ask this premier: Will he show concern for the future of our province and show some real leadership on this issue and pull Bill 44 today? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the people who are running the province of Manitoba are the people of Manitoba. It is all the people of Manitoba. It is not- An Honourable Member: Not Jules Benson. Mr. Doer: It is not Jules Benson or some other nameless person pulling the strings on behalf of the province of Manitoba.

We- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Looking back again a year ago when the election was called and a year ago tomorrow when we made the five commitments that we made [interjection} I know you do not want to look back. I know you do not. We made five commit ments in the election campaign. We made five commitments in that campaign, and we have worked and progressed on every one of the commitments we made in the campaign. Our Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) has done more to reverse the damage in the No. 1 priority called health care than any other Minister of Health in the last 11 years. I regret to say even the Honourable Member who was put into that spot in a midnight decision to try to rescue the Government from its political accountability, even my honourable friend can not even match the record of our Minister of Health in improving health care, in improving patient care services for the people of Manitoba. The second item, of course, was education and training. I think it is very, very important to recognize- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Doer: Our biggest challenge-and it was identified three years ago, in fact it was identi- fled in 1992 by fonner Premier Robl in. This report was sat on by members opposite for eight years or seven years. It gathered, you know, spider webs on it because of inaction from members opposite. The biggest challenge we have is the fact that we now in Manitoba are having more people receiving jobs and getting jobs than there is in the labour force, and that is why we worked with the business community and continue to work with the business community on an immigration strategy. The Minister of Labour (Ms.

Barrett), the business community and the federal government-in fact I think we have a meeting very shortly with the federal minister again as a follow-up. We have a challenge because our unemployment rate is so low that we have to look at getting more people into our province through increased immigra-tion. Secondly, we have to train our own young people in our own province for jobs in our province. The actions we have taken in our first budget do not reverse 10 years of neglect from members opposite. Doubling the number of community college spots, that was recom mended by Duff Roblin in 1992.

It is being implemented by an NDP Government in the year 2000. We are not looking backwards, we are looking forward so young people can get the skilled jobs, the skilled training to live and work in Manitoba and provide a bright and optimistic future that allows them to raise their families in our province. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier, who must be tired after patting himself on the back as much as he has been doing for the last I 0 or 15 minutes, just to be a little bit accurate for once in this House.

He knows full well in the election a year ago they had no health care plan, they had no plan whatsoever. They had a simple simplistic slogan, and all that his Health Minister is doing today is implementing a health care plan that was put in place by our government. I ask him just to be a little bit accurate for once. No new initiatives, no new ideas. Look at the health plan document that was in place in 1999. Look at what they are doing today, and all they are doing is they are implementing all of the initiatives outlined in that document, plain and simple.

August 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 5249 * (1 4: 10) He likes to make a big to-do about his five commitments. I want to ask the Premier, and I want him to answer the questions that are asked of him and not to go on diverting from the questions that are asked him. He talks about his five commitments a year ago. I want to ask him where in those five commitments was there any reference to what we are seeing in Bill 44 today. I ask him: Is he not concerned about the economic future of this province? Is he not concerned about a home here in Manitoba for the young people of this province?

I ask him, once again, for the economic future of our province, for the well being of all of our citizens, will he pull Bill 44 today? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Member opposite asks two questions. One, he asked the question about health care and the second issue he raised was Biii 44. I have already outlined to the Member opposite, he may not be aware that we moved five amendments yesterday in committee, very positive changes to the Act.

In essence, most of the years the Member opposite was in government the conditions that were amended in Bill 26 were changed and altered in the proposed Bill 44 before this Legislature. There are many proposals. The expedited arbitration, many companies think they are going to save money on that instead of spending too much money on lawyers. Some of the concerns of business have been addressed in the proposed bill. There still remains a disagreement on elements between labour and business on some parts of it. I acknowledge that.

But it is interesting that, in the Faculty of Management, an independent pre senter from the Faculty of Management, not on the labour side, not on the business side, spoke very positively about the labour bill and what it will mean for society and what it will mean for the people of Manitoba to have a little measure of support for employees to balance off the tremendous power that people have in our society who own companies. On the health care situation, the Member opposite talks about health care. Let me remind him that when he was in office they had two health authorities, not one, for the city of Winnipeg.

We eliminated that administrative cost, Mr. Speaker. We have put $800,000 back to nurses instead of bureaucrats that were under the former minister's regime. We actually have a capital plan in health care that has real money in the Budget. The Member opposite knows that when he was the former Health Minister, they did not have any way and any

schedule to pay back the capital plans in health care. In fact, that is a point that has been raised by all the independent rating agencies. They announced the capital projects before the election. They announced the money for them, and they did not have any money in the Budget. They did not have any money in the Budget in the year 2000, 200 1, 2002, 2003 . Mr. Speaker, we have gotten rid of virtual budgeting for health care and have real dollars for real capital in the health care system. With credit to members opposite, the midwifery bill that was introduced by members opposite, we proclaimed that.

I applaud mem bers opposite for that very positive legislation that we have proclaimed in office. For the first time in years, we have increased ambulance funding for rural Manitoba and a new agreement with the City of Winnipeg for ambulance services. We are going to go from 11 0 para medics in the city of Winnipeg providing ambulance services 7 days a week, 24 hours to 180 ambulance workers in Winnipeg in this agreement with the City of Winnipeg. That is progress. Mr. Stefanson: Once again the Premier is inaccurate with a lot of what he puts on the record.

He is certainly inaccurate when he refers to the health capital program, and he knows full well that over the last several years in Manitoba we have had the most comprehensive health capital program in the history of this province. He just needs to look around Winnipeg and around all of Manitoba to see evidence of that. Again, he knows full well. Although I know he is not on Treasury Board and has not taken an interest in serving on Treasury Board, he should know full well that there are schedules amortizing the debt of the health capital facilities.

5250 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17, 2000 Winnipeg Regional Health Authority Deficit Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): If he wants to talk about health care today, I want to ask the Premier: What is the current status of the regional health authorities, the Winnipeg Hos pital Authority and the regional health authori ties as of today in terms of their finances? Is it accurate that the Winnipeg Hospital Authority alone is today running a $1 0-million deficit? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, as you know, when we came into of fice, we had to employ Deloitte Touche to review the situation- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In this year's budget we had to provide $56 million to deal with the deficit left in the Health budget by members opposite. I have letters on file and briefing notes from the former minister that actually confirm that.

We funded programs that were needed in the province of Manitoba, which the members voted against in this budget, which the members voted against, and they continue their carnage in terms of the health care system. Finally- * (1 4:20) Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 41 7: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." The question was very clear.

The $1 0-million deficit that this minister has run up, will he admit to it today? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: No, Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all ministers that, according to Beauchesne's 41 7, answers to questions should be brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Minister of Health to conclude his answer. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, we funded the deficits in those budgets left in the inaccurate funding of last year, and we hope and anticipate that all the hospital authorities can end up the year in a more balanced position than under the previous experiences. Health Care System Spending-Ac countability Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question is to the Minister of Health. Sometimes paying travel costs for health care workers is critical for the better working of the health care system.

On the other hand, sometimes it is a costly waste of taxpayers' money and, as an example, in some rural areas of Manitoba a licensed practical nurse who is trained and competent to deliver eyedrops is not able to do so, and so the regional health authority must hire a registered nurse who has to travel many miles several times a day, wasting taxpayers' money. I would ask the Minister: What is he doing to improve the health care system and get rid of the costly waste and inefficiency in the system? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, we combined the two Winnipeg Regional Health Authorities to eliminate two bureaucracies. We stopped the SmartHealth contract. We are dealing with the issue of trying to provide proper resources to the health care system, at the same time putting in place the proper regimes to provide the resources. We have put in place a number of programs with

August 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 525 1 respect to hallway medicine, with respect to the nurses' training plan, with respect to waiting list reductions, with respect to expanded dialysis. For example, Norway House, yesterday we put in place two dialysis units that will lessen the medevacs to the city of Winnipeg. Nursing Profession Licensed Practical Nurse Training Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My supplementary to the Minister of Health. I ask the Minister of Health why, after 11 months, he is still operating a system which is short of licensed practical nurses?

He is only training 190 a year, when there are 200 a year needed. When are you going to improve the targets and improve the training potential for the licensed practical nurses in Manitoba? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the Member may not be aware of it, but we are training additional licensed practical nurses in Selkirk. We are looking at other options in that regard, in addition to the 190 we are training, in addition to the nurses that we are putting in the diploma program that the Member opposite opposes, as do all members opposite.

I still do not understand why they oppose the nurses' program when nursing shortages are one of the major issues that we face. Legislation Proclamation Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask the Minister of Health why it has taken more than 11 months to declare the new Manitoba Association of Licensed Practical Nurses Act when there are increased costs, there are inefficiencies. It could have been done many months ago. Why are you prevaricating? Why are you delaying? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, there are three professional nursing acts that we will be proclaiming soon.

I would add another additional cost saving in the system was with respect to our new ambulance program in the city of Winnipeg. It will see paramedics transported with patients, rather than taking nurses from the hospital system to transport patients, which is another improvement in terms of efficiency in the system. There have been many. There will be many more to come. Dialysis Services Norway House Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. As the Minister knows, diabetes is a serious problem in northern and remote Manitoba.

Patients from these remote areas are often transported to large urban centres such as Winnipeg for dialysis. Such patients endure considerable stresses and pains and extra costs. To what degree will the installation of Manitoba's first on-reserve dialysis units in Norway House alleviate this chronic problem? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I know members opposite are anxious to ask a lot of questions. I will just briefly indicate that the provision of providing the service in the community is just the thing that the Member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard) was referring to, it provides closer services, and not only provides closer services and saves costs, but it is more effective, better health care for the community. We hope to see more of this in terms of providing services in the community. Winnipeg Regional Health Authority Deficit Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, over and over and over, we have heard from this Premier (Mr. Doer) that under his regime there will be no more deficits in health care, under his regime, they will provide sufficient money, and all will be well.

I want to ask the Premier to confirm today that the projected deficit, after the first quarter, in the Winnipeg hospital authority or Health Authority is over $1 0 million, of which over half a million is to subsidize the caf eteria. Will he not confirm that? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, what we did in this budgetary year is we looked at the deficits in the health care system from last year when members opposite

5252 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17, 2000 were operating the system. There were deficits in excess of $50 million that we put into the base-line funding of the regional health authorities. We hope in our first budget, as we work through the year and we work with the hospital authorities across the province of Manitoba. we can put in place a better and more accurate accountability system. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Pr emier how the adm ission, sort of admission, by this Minister of Health that the hospital authority is still running a deficit, half a million of which is for the caf eteria and, we hear, up to $3 million to carry Misericordia because they wiii not implement the plan, I want to ask how that ji bes with the Premier's comments in this House earlier that there wiii be no more deficits, that he is running things better. when in fact there is still a deficit and still subsidizing cafeterias instead of providing dollars for health? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, we are working within budget. Last year at this time those same health authorities were over $50 million in deficit without adding all the programs that we put in place to deal with the legacy, the hallway medicine program, initiatives to deal with nurses, initiatives to deal with emergency care. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of Health or the Premier, if the Premier has the courage to now answer questions in this Assembly, now explain how, when there are so many needs in health care that we all agree upon, this administration can allow the Winnipeg Health Authority to be overspending not in patient food but in their own cafeterias to the tune of a half a million dollars, using health care money to provide subsidized ham and cheese sandwiches? How is that good health care? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the question from the Member opposite, but coming from a member who put us into the frozen food fiasco that cost the province $30 million of frozen food, I just tell that member that it is passing strange to hear that comment come from that member who put frozen food into the city of Winnipeg, which will not be our experience. I think members opposite will be very pleased with the solution we will be offering to the people of Manitoba to eliminate frozen food brought in by the Member opposite. * (14: 30) Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Mr.

Harry Enos (Lakeside): A member's statement. Mr. Speaker: I have not called it yet. Mr. Eons: Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: Order. I have not called it yet. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Steve Ewing Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Mr. Speaker, it is with great sadness that I rise today to speak about the tragedy that is deeply affecting many of my constituents. As members are aware, Steve Ewing, one of the workers injured last week in the furnace blast at the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting operation in Flin Flon, died last night at the Health Sciences Centre. Mr. Ewing was a relatively young man. He was only 33 years of age.

He had been employed by Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting for the last 15 years. He leaves behind a young family, namely, his wif e, Dormae, and five children. I know that they will miss him very much, as will all those who knew him, including friends, co workers and neighbours. I am sure that all members of this Assembly will join me in extending our sympathy to Steve Ewing's family and friends. As well, on behalf of all of us in this Legislature, I once again would like to send out our sincere hopes for the recovery of those workers who sti ll remain in hospital as well as those who have been released.

We express our appreciation to all health care and emergency workers who responded to the accident and gave the best possible care to Mr. Ewing and are

August 17 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5253 continuing to give this care to his injured co workers. The death of a young worker, or any worker for that matter, in a workplace accident is a tragedy felt by all of us. In Flin Flon and the surrounding area, workers and their families are struggling to deal with the trauma left by this accident. Beyond the physical scars, there are mental and emotional scars. With our support and prayers and the support and prayers of the larger community, may all those wounded by this tragic accident soon find some measure of peace and healing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Labour Relations Act- Amendments Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Just before my statement, I also want to echo the concern from this side of the House for the family members and those that remain suffering as a result of the terrible accident in Flin Flon. Our thoughts and prayers are with them. Mr. Speaker, I did receive a memorandum from Mr. Sidney Green. I would like to enter some of it in the record of my member's statement. He says: Despite the fact that two lawyers versed in labour relations appeared before the legislative committee and advised the committee to the contrary, the Minister of Labour (Ms.

Barrett) insists that the certification procedure which is now being proposed merely returns to the system that prevailed for 50 years. The Minister either does not understand or is deliberately misrepresenting the situation. Mr. Green goes on to explain in con siderable detail the actual facts and the correct history with regard to the labour bill. I will be glad to share this information with the Minister.

In closing, he suggests that if the Minister truly wishes to revert to the situation which prevailed 50 years ago and up until the mid- 19 80s, two amendments are necessary to the legislation now being proposed. Repeal

section 47(2) and repeal first contract legislation. I would be glad to share this with the Minister. Thank you. Dialysis Services-Nor way House Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Yester day I had the pleasure of travelling to Norway House with my colleague the Honourable Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) to represent the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) and participate in the opening of Manitoba's first on-reserve dialysis unit. The new two-station unit can be used to treat up to four dialysis patients now, with the potential to serve as many as 12 patients over the long term.

The community of Norway House, Manitoba Health and Health Canada's First Nations and Inuit Health Branch worked together on this initiative to better serve patients by allowing them to receive treatment while remaining in their home community close to their families. On behalf of the MLA for The Pas, I was pleased to present a beautiful painting which will hang right in the dialysis room. Manitoba's provincial dialysis team, headquartered at the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, has helped to make Manitoba a leader in dialysis and is working continuously to expand the program to rural sites.

In addition to Winnipeg, dialysis is also offered in Brandon, Ashern, Dauphin, Flin Flon, Morden, Pine Falls, Portage, Selkirk, The Pas and Thompson. This gov ernment is committed to improving the quality of life for rural and northern Manitobans who have to leave their homes or even relocate to receive health services such as dialysis. Most dialysis patients have end-stage kidney disease. They must have dialysis services to live.

Making it possible for people to be treated close to home ensures that they do not have to disrupt their lives and the lives of their families and friends to receive the care that they need. Representatives from many organizations worked hard to make this dialysis unit a reality. I want to congratulate representatives from Manitoba Health, Health Canada's First Nations and Inuit Health Branch, the Northern Medical Unit, the Provincial Dialysis Program Team and of course the community of Norway House for their co-operation in moving this project forward.

I know that their hard work will enhance the health of the whole community. Thank you.

5254 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17 , 2000 Labour Relations Act- Amendments Mr. Harry Eons (Lakeside): Mr Speaker, in keeping with a tradition established in this Chamber by my good friend and coll eague the Honourable Member for Wellington (Mr. Santos), my colleague the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) and I have a joint statement to make to the House.

Some Honourable Members: Productivity's high/Unemployment ts lowffhe economy's chuggin'ffhat's the way it should go/With business expandin'/We're the place to locate/But Bi11 44/ Puts a lock on the gate I do not understand/Why this bill and now/Political paybacks/Gonna drain the cash cow/I am not anti-business/1 am not anti labour/Just want legislationffhat is in everyone's favour The deficit is down/Optimism is high/We're the place to do commerce/Lots of jobs, wages high/0, this is no time/For us to look backffhis ain't 191 9/We're on the right track Productivity's high/Unemployment is low/The economy's chuggin'ffhat's the way it should go/With business expandin'/We're the place to locate/But Bill 44/Is lockin' the gate *( 14 :40) Some Honourable Members: Oh. oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, do we need a choir director? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, I know I have been having difficulties with my voice, but it is: Some Honourable Members: Productivity's high/Unemployment is low/The economy's chuggin'ffhat's the way it should go/With business expanding/What a place to locate/But Bill 44/Put a lock on the gate. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised, the Honourable Government House Leader does not have a point of order. *** Mr. Speaker: Back to Members' Statements, the Honourable Member for Brandon West. RCMP Run for Cancer Mr. Scott Smith (Brandon West): It is a pretty tough act to follow. I would almost have to say I saw something like that a long time ago. Larry, Curly and Moe led a group, and it had a lot of resemblance to what I just witnessed. I have lost it here, Mr. Speaker.

It is a pleasure to stand up today and bring notice to a hardworking group of individuals and volunteers that are running in the Run for Cancer here in Manitoba. The RCMP Run for Cancer began in Brandon in the summer of 19 83 by an RCMP officer whose life had been touched by cancer. The run has become a well-established and widely recognized event, exclusive throughout the entire province of Manitoba since its inception. The run has wound its way through many different communities in Manitoba and has raised well over a milli on dollars for cancer care, prevention and research in our province.

This year will be the 18 th annual run and will take place September 29 and 30 here in Manitoba. It will be four teams participating, covering many different regions in the province, two from Winnipeg, one from Westman and one from Russell. Each run route is approximately 360 kilometres, and each run team consists of 8 to I 0 runners, with 4 drivers that also act as spare runners. Each runner on the team completes approximately 40 kilometres in a 360-kilometre route. In Brandon this year, on the 29th, it will be Brandon, Carberry, Neepawa and Minnedosa. On the 30th, Virden, Sioux Valley and Brandon.

August 17 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5255 Mr. Speaker, I would just like to give recognition and appreciation to one person. I know there are a number of people who are involved in the event and have done a lot of work over the last number of years, in the 18 years, but Mr. George Abernethy has been there right from the start, deserves a lot of recognition and has done an extremely good job. I would like to see as many people as we can get out on the 29th and 30th. Thank you very much. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on House business, I- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. It is very difficult to hear. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I seek leave of the House to waive Rule 76(1) which states that the three sections of the Committee of Supply must meet in the Chamber to consider the Estimates concurrence motion so that the Committee of Supply can meet in one

section in Committee Room 255 to consider the Estimates concurrence motion while the Chamber continues to consider other business to be in effect from 3: 00 until 6:00 p.m. on the clock in the committee room. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader seeks the leave of the House to waive Rule 76(1) which states that the three sections of the Committee of Supply must meet in the Chamber to consider the Estimates con currence motion so that Committee of Supply can meet in one

section in Committee Room 255 to consider the Estimates concurrence motion while the Chamber continues to consider other House business from 3 to 6 p.m. on the clock in the committee room. Is there leave? [Agreed ] Mr. Mackintosh: I also must advise the House, according to advice that in the event that any formal votes are requested in the Committee of Supply, the Chamber will have to temporarily interrupt its business and resolve into Supply for the formal vote to be conducted in here. In respect of Room 255 then, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Ms. Wowchuk), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker: I advise the House that in the event that any formal votes are requested in the Committee of Supply, the Chamber will have to temporarily interrupt its business and resolve into the Committee of Supply in order for the formal vote to be conducted in the Chamber. It has been moved by the Honourable Attorney General, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture and Food, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, in Room 255. Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. Would the Honourable Deputy Speaker please take the Chair in the Committee in Room 255. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY * (1 5:00) Consideration of Concurrence Motion Mr. Chairperson (Conrad Santos): The Com mittee of Supply has before it for our considera tion the motion concurring in all Supply resolutions relating to the Estimates of Expendi ture for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 2001. Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I would like to give the Minister an opportunity to perhaps rethink one of the answers he gave in Estimates. I will repeat the answer to a question. My question in Estimates was in relationship to the Deputy Minister. My question had been: I wonder if the Minister could tell me why his deputy is not in attendance at these Estimates. His response was: "in my 10 years of attending Estimates, particularly the majority of time in the last few years at the Department of Health, the Deputy Minister did not attend the course of the Estimates." In fact, Mr.

Chairman, I did check into that, and the Deputy Minister was at the majority of Health Estimates for the last several numbers of years. I wonder if the Minister could indicate for me why he gave the answer that he did give. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): From my recollection of my memory, particu-

5256 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17 , 2000 larly the last few years, I do not recall the deputy being in attendance for the majority of the Estimates. That is what I recall. If the record shows otherwise, I mean, I will accede to the memory of the record rather than my own memory, but I do not recall. I will tell you why I remember that parti cular instance. When I was the opposition critic, I had the pleasure of serving with Don Orchard and Frank Maynard, Jim McCrae and John Wade, Darren Praznik, and then John Wade and Tom Carson, followed by Frank DeCock.

I remember being struck by the fact that during Don Orchard's tenure, Frank Maynard attended all of the Estimates. Then I remember noticing as the critic that Doctor Wade was not attending all of the Estimates, although he attended a number of them. I am going through my memory and just explaining how I reached that conclusion. Later on, when Mr. Carson became Deputy Minister, I remember being struck by the fewer occasions that Mr. Carson was attending and the fact that the Associate Deputy Minister was attending more often.

In fact, then when we got into a process where when Darren Praznik was minister he actually brought in departmental officials like CEOs, et cetera, and then we got into a bit of a hubbub, but that is what my memory recollection was. Then when I became mini ster-I am just telling you why I reached that conclusion-and I watched the administrative style of Mr. Carson, I understood why Mr. Carson had a different administrative style than say Frank Maynard.

I remember saying, oh, that is why, I actually thought to myself, oh, that is why Tom Carson did not attend a lot of the Estimates, because what he did was he delegated the authority and the ability for people to speak on his behalf, which I noted was a different administrative style than had been. If the record shows that my statement was inaccurate, it was from my memory, and it was not an attempt to be misleading or diverge the fact. It was an irrelevant point in the sense of whether or not Mr. Hikel was in attendance.

So, if the record shows otherwise, I will accept that, but I do not remember that from my memory. If the record shows otherwise then I will accede to the record. Mrs. Driedger: I am just curious because certainly, in all of the Health Estimates, the Acting Deputy Minister was here only for a half an hour of the whole time. I guess I am finding that a little bit unusual. Would the Minister care to comment on why, when he said the Acting Deputy Minister was acting in the full role of what a deputy minister would do, why he might not have been here more than half an hour? Mr.

Chomiak: Because the Deputy Minister has duties to perform, and I have duties to perform. Frankly, if we were in the same situation now, I would not ask the Deputy Minister to attend either, in order to provide for the information. The operation of the Department is a monu mental task and requires extraordinary eff ort by a lot of people. I have always been conscious, and members will confirm this, when I was in Estimates as critic, I always let the Minister know where I was going with questions I was asking, what people would available.

I would tell them to let staff go to go back to do their jobs, because I always felt having staff sit around and go through a million questions was not a good use of time. Even when I was cnt1c, I think ministers will confirm that I was quite fastidious in that point, and I just continue the practice as mini ster. I hate the idea, to tell you the truth, personally, I hate the idea of people sitting around and waiting, and I am subject to it when we get into rhetorical flourishes back and forth.

Heaven knows, I am guilty of it, as are other members, and I always think about those people sitting there. [interj ection] Well, you know, now we are going again. It is funny in this business. You admit something and you are honest, and then you get a retort. An Honourable Member: That is a direct quote of mine, right? You are quoting me. Mr. Chomiak: Well, no, I did not know that, but if I am quoting the Member, I accede to that. In any event, it is funny in this business, so I am just admitting the fact. Even now, I do not

August 17 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5257 like the fact the bureaucrats have to sit around when I know how much pressure we are putting on them. * (15:10 ) An Honourable Member: Why do you not just take the responsibility and say you do not need them? Mr. Chomiak: No. If I say I do not need them, that implies that I think I am all-superior, so I have trouble saying that. I will not say that. I will just say that I think we could handle the questions, and I do not think we need the Deputy Minister, because there is a big job to do and we are doing the best we can.

I will cease and desist at that point. Mrs. Driedger: There has been one question that I have been waiting and waiting to hear a response on. I can sort of understand that the Minister might be a little nervous about perhaps giving out this information, but I am going to give him another chance. I am wondering if he could tell me how many ICU beds are closed in the city and have been closed throughout the summer. Mr. Chomiak: That information was never provided during the course of the Estimates debate.

As I indicated to the Member, I gave the Member more information than has ever been [interjection] Well, if the Member will go back in the record, if she has gone through the record, let her go and find that out and then confirm whether my memory is in fact correct on that. That is a varying number. It is a varying number. There are varying numbers of vacation-related bed closings and bed openings throughout this period of time. I think, as I indicated to the Member opposite when I gave her a bunch of numbers, it is generally in line with past experiences. Mrs.

Driedger: I am wondering if the Minister could tell me if he is going to give me those specific numbers, if I should continue to hold my breath and wait for something more specific, or if that is as much as I am going to get out of him. Mr. Chomiak: I would not want the Member to hold her breath in this regard. Mrs.

Driedger: Prior to getting into some questions as a follow-up to Question Period today, because there is a huge amount of concern we have in terms of the issue of RHA deficits, particularly considering the Minister's promises and inferences and other things in that area that there would be no deficits because he said he provided the funding early on, up front, which should totally elimi nate the deficits in the RHAs. We will be getting into a number of questions in that area this afternoon so that the Minister has an opportunity to clarify for us some of those issues.

Before we get into that, I do have a question of the Minister. I am sorry I do not have the

article here, but it was in the Selkirk Journal and there was a statement made in there that there is arbitration going on right now for nurses throughout the province in terms of overtime pay. Would that have been an accurate state ment? Was the contract reopened? Mr. Chomiak: I do not know what

article the Member is referring to. I would appreciate it if she could get me a copy. The contract has not been reopened. Mrs. Driedger: I will, during the course of concurrence, go down to my office and make a copy for the Minister. In the meantime, is he aware of ongoing bargaining issues around the area of overtime. Certainly the

article referenced the fact that the Interlake Health Authority closed down a total now of 25 beds. Part of the problem is related they said to nursing shortage and overtime issues. A lot of nurses do not necessarily, I am assuming, want to work over time because of unresolved funding issues around overtime. I do understand from the tertiary hospitals in the city that there are dif ferent overtime rates paid between the two hospitals, and it is not consistent. Are there provincial negotiations going on in this area? Mr.

Chomiak: I am not aware of any provincial negotiations with respect to the collective agreement with the Manitoba Nurses' Union. Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister tell me if he has had any further discussion with the Uni versity of Manitoba F acuity of Nursing in terms of funding more nursing student spaces there this fall? He had indicated to me in Estimates that he

5258 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 1 7, 2000 was waiting to get infonnation from the university. We know that infonnation had been provided by the university mid-July in tenns of what it would cost to fund more spaces and that the Minister was then reviewing that to find out, in order to handle this huge nursing shortage that we have now seen, whether he is going to add more spaces and fund more spaces at the University of Manitoba School ofNursing? Mr. Chomiak: There are ongoing discussions with the Faculty of Nursing.

I was quite sur prised to learn in the contract, the five-year nursing contract that the members opposite signed the day before the election last year, that they had withdrawn $500,000 from that funding to fund the LPN program. I was not aware of that. I was advised that they took $500,000 out of the $5. 6 million and used it to fund the LPN program. That is what I have been advised. I have been advised that we reinstated that funding this year into the agreement. That is what I have been advised. There are ongoing discussions with the University of Manitoba. Mrs.

Driedger: He has been sitting on the information from there now for a month. School is starting in two weeks. They did have a waiting list, according to the vice-provost at the university, of 75 serious students who wanted to take the program there. We do know that Red River College only had a waiting list of 12 , but here we have an opportunity where there are more people wanting to become student nurses. It is fine that we have a five-year contract signed, but there is an opportunity to enhance a contract. It is fine if the Minister wants to keep hanging that around our neck.

The issue is we have 75 more students. Would the Minister not consider looking at enhancing the funding in order to add more spaces, or are we actually going to lose 75 student nurses who want to become nurses? Because if they go to another province or another faculty we are not going to see them. Mr. Chomiak: I think the Member is making a number of assertions that I think she should double check.

We are in discussions with the university concerning the number of students, whether in fact the university is living up to the number of students that they promised to provide for under the contract that was entered into by members opposite. Of course, those numbers were never achievable in the last three years. I am very pleased that they have been able to bump the numbers up since we announced our diploma program. I think that is a very positive- An Honourable Member: What does he mean by achievable? Mr. Chomiak: Well, the Member opposite says ·" achievable." Members opposite talk about money management.

There were certain con tracted positions that were supposed to be funded and a certain number of nurses were sup posed to be trained, and there was nowhere near that number that was matching, even though the money was going forward. We are in discussions and negotiation with the Faculty of Nursing. I would appreciate if the members would be supportive of the diploma nursing program as well because we need nurses right across this province, in a variety of areas. Mrs.

Driedger: I guess if the Minister is indicating that, and his statement is accurate, it certainly would explain the reason for the transfer of funding out of that program and into the LPN program , but the question also is related. The University of Manitoba indicated that they were ahead of their commitment in meeting their numbers. So, in fact, the statement that the Minister made would not· be accurate, because I believe I have seen a number of documents where the university has indicated very publicly that they were ahead of their commitment in meeting the numbers required of them.

The Minister likes to think that the diploma program is the reason we have the waiting list out there at the University of Manitoba. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Nurses choose to take either a diploma program or a baccalaureate program. Those who might be waiting to enter the baccalaureate program know that they will have expanded opportunities in their careers if they have a degree program. That has been for 25 years. That is nothing new.

Certainly students going into nursing know that you have much more mobility and opportunity if you have a degree; we all found that out in our nursing careers, but to even infer that the

August 17 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5259 diploma program can take credit for the waiting Jist at the university is absolutely ludicrous. *( 15: 20) Having said that, is the Minister not pre pared to move a little bit more quickly on this? He has had a month to look at it. School is starting in two weeks. I would think that from the time we have had this information now a lot of those 75 students have probably looked at something else.

It is going to be interesting to follow that now to find out if this minister has had an opportunity to address the nursing shortage and has not taken full advantage of that. This is going to be a serious issue, because also the LPN program had a waiting list, I was told, a very serious waiting list of students wanting to enter the LPN program. We do not seem to be seeing any movement in that area.

So, come September, and I am certainly going to be watching this very carefully, if the Minister has not followed through and taken advantage of the fact that we have had all of these people who want to be nurses and he has let them slip through his fingers, which in tum is going to hugely impact on health care in Manitoba, he cannot blame that one on us. That one is something that is happening in his time. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, it will be interesting. I do not think one should forget the fact that we had entered into a five-year contract to provide for a specific number of nurses and specific funding for nurses.

That contract was signed September 25, 19 99. [interjection} Pardon me, the day before, was it September 20? Mr. Chairperson, a correction. It was the day before the election, which was September 20, 19 99. [interjection] So the contract was signed September 20, 19 99. Mrs. Driedger: Well, the Minister can keep going back to this five-year contract. It looks like he is going to be playing with words around that and using it as an excuse for a number of the initiatives that he himself is not taking. [interjection} You can enhance agreements. I mean, why would you not?

Or go into a further agreement and fund 75 more students. I mean, is there nothing creative that could be done here, or are we going to Jet 75 students there slip through our fingers? There apparently is a waiting Jist for LPNs. We understand that there are Jots of personal care home beds that are empty right now. We are sitting in this province. We built the personal care homes. The Minister is not filling them because there are not enough nurses. A number of the nurses that could be utilized in personal care homes are LPNs.

Why are we not seeing an aggressive movement in terms of adding more student nurses to either the psych nurses program, the university program? Why did Red River only go with 90 students, although we understand they may be housed in trailers because the college is having a lot of physical problems trying to cope with this new program. Why would we not have moved faster than what we are moving now to address this over 11 00 nursing shortage by bringing in more students? He has had a year to address this. Mr.

Chomiak: There are more nurses being trained in Manitoba today than there was one year ago, far more nurses being trained. I do not think I have to say any more. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): You know, throughout this debate, the Minister has- An Honourable Member: Which debate? Mr. Derkach: Now the Minister asks: Which debate? An Honourable Member: We have debated a Jot of things. Mr. Derkach: Good afternoon, Mr. Minister. Mr. Chair, throughout this debate on nurses, we continually hear the Minister revert back to a year ago, revert back to what the previous government did.

As a matter of fact, the previous government was on track to create more nurses' training, and the Minister has to acknowledge that. Now he can play politics with this if he likes. He played politics with it before he became the Minister. He played politics with it during the election campaign, and he still chooses to play politics. The reality is that there was a plan in place by the Department of Health to train more

5260 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17 , 2000 professional nurses in the province of Manitoba. The approach may have been different than this minister has taken, and that is fine. That is a prerogative of his, as a Minister of Health, to determine what kind of a program he wants to embark on, but he cannot deny the fact that indeed there was a program, that indeed there was a plan in place and on track to train more nurses in the province of Manitoba to be able to open up the personal care homes that were being built at that time so that indeed there would be a staff available for those care homes. Mr.

Chair, we have been through this ground before, where the Minister, before he was minister, during the election campaign, in his political diatribe, continued to emphasize that indeed we laid off a thousand nurses. He confirmed, during the debate on Estimates, and we can pull Hansard out, that indeed it was not a layoff of a thousand nurses, that indeed those nurses were consumed, if you like, by the personal care homes that were being opened in the province of Manitoba or they went into the community, but indeed all of these people have opportunities for employment.

If we laid off a thousand nurses, it would be obvious we would have a surplus of workforce in the nursing profession, and we do not. Those nurses were absorbed by the system because there were more personal care home beds being opened, there were more acute care beds being opened. As a matter of fact, the system itself was expanding, and so it has continued to, and the demand for it continues to increase.

So we can sit here forever and a day and talk about the political rhetoric in terms of his views of the world and in terms of our views of the world, but the reality is that there was a plan in place to train more nurses. What we are talking about here today is we are encouraging the Minister to allow the 75 candidates who want to train as nurses in this province be allowed to train. He has the capacity within his budget to do that. It is not as though he does not, but it means re-establishing priorities. To the people of Manitoba, this is a priority. I am not knocking the Minister for creating an LPN program.

Heaven knows, the more people we can have at the bedside, the better it is going to be for the clients, but he, I think, has run into the same kind of dilemma that other ministers faced, and that is that you cannot do things overnight, that indeed it takes time. Sometimes we make announcements, and we cannot fulfil what we made in the announcement because we did not have all of the details at our fingertips. So, today, as we approach the beginning of the program within two weeks, we still do not have program approval. That is fine, Mr.

Chair, as long as the Minister would admit the fact that indeed there is going to be some time required to accomplish these things, but we will proceed with the training. That is fine, but there are 75 candidates who should be accepted into the program so they would have an opportunity to be able to provide their services for the personal care home beds that are not being opened today because there are no staff. I ask the Minister let us get back on track.

Instead of continually going back to what the previous administration did, let us address the issues as they are before us today, and let us look ahead, rather than looking behind. * (15: 30) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the Member for that comment, after he spent 15 minutes talking about justifying the past. That is fine and we do that in this place. Let us- Mr. Chairperson: Point of order being raised. Point of Order Mr.

Derkach: I was not justifying the past. was simply telling the Minister what the reality was, and, in fact, if you check the records, if you check with the Department of Health, you will find that what I have put on the record is, in fact, fact. It is not rhetoric. Mr. Chairperson: Dispute over the perception as to the facts is not a point of order. *** Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, as I indicated to the Member, if the Member wants to go forward, we are going to be training more nurses in Manitoba than were being trained this time last year. I hope next year there will be more as

August 17 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 526 1 well. If we are talking about the future, that is what we should be talking about. Mr. Glen Cummi ngs (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chair man, is the Minister not prepared to make best efforts to deal with this surplus? He has admitted that there is a demand. He has made it a high priority of his administration. His Premier (Mr. Doer) has talked about it. We heard ad nauseam over the last nine months, frankly, about the initiatives the Government was taking. Is this Minister not prepared to say-he has got a flush. All he has to do is play his hand.

Why will he not deal with this type of backlog? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the Member was a member of the Crown. The Member knows in negotiating and in dealing with various institutions and bodies, and in particular dealing with funding of those bodies and funding of meeting contractual requirements, that there are certain issues that one deals with and certain issues that one negotiates. I have said, and the thing that bothers me about the blanket statements of the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) is: (

a) making a statement that I am not sure is corroborated about 75 positions; (

b) not looking into the details of that; and (

c) I have said over and over and over again we will do everything that we can to train as many nurses as we can. Members opposite talk about being fiscally prudent and fiscally managing, and I go back to the fact that the contract that was signed called for certain positions and a certain number of positions, and we will endeavour to do everything we can to train as many people as we can across the system. We are training more people this year than this time last year, and I hope that we will do the same next year. I do not know what more the Member wants. Mr. Cummings: The Minister is quite correct.

I spent a lot of years on Treasury Board, and I know the difficulty of financing. I also know that when government has priorities it believes it has sufficient dollars to deal with, or if it has priorities that it believes are higher priorities than other areas within their administration, they will deal with the issue and fix the problem. The Minister knows full well that one of the most significant and ongoing lines of criticism that we heard from him when he was in opposi tion, that if he only had a chance to be govern ment, he would fix this problem.

Number one, he knows that he has a surplus from last year's budget, even though they tried very hard to demonstrate a deficit. They spent, I believe, a half milli on bucks trying to prove there was a deficit. Secondly, the Department of Health has received significant increases in expenditure, including the increases that the previous administration put in place.

Now, if that is not enough money, then he either has to admit, as he almost did a moment ago, that there just is not enough money to run the health care system the way he is running it or he has not got the priority of health care in place in the way he tried to portray it to the people of this province. Because if he does not get sufficient nurses trained, he will not be able to staff the facili ties that he knows full well were put in place to deal with the surplus demand for long-term care beds which will free up his hospital beds.

I do not need to give him any kind of a recital about how that chain will unfold. Why is he dodging the issue? I believe, when you approach a facility and you can talk about negotiations if he will, the fact is that I suspect the facility would be mote than glad to enter into a dialogue with him because they recognize that they came up short over the last two years. They recognize that there is a demand out there, and what a better combination of events than to have the demand, to have the students waiting.

I believe you will find that the educational facility is more than anxious to get on with the job given what I have understood from previous discussions. Is there something about this that he is not sharing with us or with the public of this province? Is he saying that he has deficits coming up in other parts of his department, that he is not going to have enough money to go around? Is the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) yanking his chain? What is his problem?

This seems to me that he could end this line of questioning in the next two minutes if he responded to indicate that he is at least willi ng to sit down with the facility. I can hear

5262 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17 , 2000 him say in the next two minutes: I am not going to negotiate on Hansard what I might be will ing to negotiate across the table with the facility. I understand that, but is he or is he not interested in negotiating with the facility or did he fail to negotiate with them because it is virtually too late to expand the numbers now? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, we are training more nurses this year than last year. If the Member would have been paying attention, he would have heard that I indicated we are having discussions with the University of Manitoba.

We are also in discussions with Red River. We are also in discussions with Assiniboine Community College. We are also in discussions with the various other community colleges. We are also in discussions with the various professional bodies with respect to nurse training, and we are training more nurses this year than last year and at any time in the past three or four years. That will continue, and that will continue to grow. Mr.

Cummings: Then will the Minister, if he is so confident that he is on the right agenda, give us a comparison between the number of graduates that he expects to have in all three areas of training as compared to what he expects the demand to be? I would think that is a simple calculation from his department. Mr. Chomiak: We outlined those figures in our nurses recruitment plan.

I will provide the Member with a copy of the numbers of nurses that we anticipated in our nursing plan with specifics and the numbers attached to that when we announced our plan, which I do not believe members opposite support, but I would like to hear otherwise if in fact they do support it. Mr. Cummings: Frankly, there is only one number that I am interested in. What is the shortfall? Mr.

Chomiak: As I indicated, I believe that, and I am going from memory, at the time of the announcement of the diploma nursing program, if we were to continue at the rates that the nurses were being trained with respect to the training that was occurring, the actual training from the University of Manitoba, I believe, we would not even meet the demand that would be required until the year, I believe it was, 20 I 0. Mr. Cummings: That is still an evasive way of answering the question. We all appreciate that there were not sufficient graduates over the last numbers of years.

There was not much interest on the part of students in going into the faculties, to tell you the truth. The matter becomes a question of the promises that were made by this administration on its way to government. What shortfall does this Minister anticipate? I recall a commentary about importation of nurses, encouraging immigration. I believe that there are nurses out there right now where their immi gration is being facilitated from other countries. Is the Minister calculating in an unknown quantity there or is that yet an unknown quantity? Mr.

Chomiak: I think at this time we are antici pating, at a minimum, a hundred nurses being recruited from offshore. * (15 :40) Mr. Cummings: That is encouraging, and I think that the Minister would probably appre ciate that I am old enough to recognize that that is a repeat cycle from about 30 years ago, 25 years ago when we had a lot of offshore nurses come into this jurisdiction, some very good nurses, well trained, and more than happy to have them. This is perhaps an unfair question, and it is not one that I need a precise answer to, but can the Minister give me an opinion?

These nurses, when they arrive, do we anticipate that once they have had an opportunity to get settled, they will be able to go immediately to work or are there any other training requirements that might be placed on them before they can go into the field? Mr. Chomiak: This particular program and this particular situation, as such, the nurses will have places and will be pre-certified and ready to occupy positions, from my understanding. Mr. Cummings: Is the Government paying any finder's fee to bring these nurses over? Mr. Chomiak: The RHAs took out a RFP in order to have a recruiting agency.

The fees applicable are standard with respect to other recruitment initiatives in terms of the health care

August 17 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5263 field. We standardized it across the system, and that is what I understand is being done. Mr. Cummings: Well, I appreciate that that is the next best alternative, and I certainly encourage the Minister to continue with that. My first choice would be that we do have adequate training available, and I think of course in this business we are always cautious of whether or not there is something hidden in a velvet glove when questions are being asked, but the Minister should not be too sensitive about training questions and numbers involved.

The question is: Can the facilities be staffed when they are opened or are there beds going to have stay closed unnecessarily long? This member, the previous administration, had a huge amount of political and taxpayers' capital tied up in the decisions that were made to begin to put those facilities in place.

This minister is going to have the opportunity and the pleasure of opening a number of those facilities that are in the planning stage, and I only hope and encourage him to continue to move forward the dual track of not only managing the expenditure that will fall to his department annually, the amortized costs of these facili ties, but the additional costs that will be unproductive if he cannot staff those facilities. Any delay in opening of those facilities will be an unproductive cost to his department. I do not know if I even need an answer.

I see an affirmative nod from the Minister, but it is an important issue that he well may have covered several times during Estimates but connected to the training piece of this, if one piece is missing he knows it will come down like a house of cards. Mr. Chomiak: I appreciate the advice of the Member. If the Member wanted to have a discussion with me on this very issue off the public record, I am quite prepared to do it and to explain the ramifications and the issues surrounding it.

I think the Member can appreciate, from his experience, why I am less than willing to discuss issues of negotiations in this particular forum. I hope the Member appreciates that there is not a reluctance in order to do everything that we can to do this, but there are issues that I prefer we be permitted to have the opportunity of negotiating. Mr.

Cummings: I will reciprocate by making the effort to put clearly on the record that if anyone from the facilities that the Minister has to negotiate with should in fact read this record, I would encourage them to actively participate in whatever negotiations need to be undertaken with this minister and the ministry because unless all players in this, what is now fully more than a third of the budget of this province, if all players are not full participants, whether it is the nursing community, the educational community, and that goes all the way through to the teaching aspects of our doctor-manpower issues, that everyone has to come to the game, if you will, or has to come to the table and at the same time- Mr.

Chairperson: What is the pleasure of the Committee? Shall we continue or recess now? An Honourable Member: I will go check and see how long it will be. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, you can continue for the meantime. Mr.

Cummings: I think it is worth putting on the record the thoughts that I just put because all three sides of the House, if you will, have taken their turn at making the health care issue more politicized than it probably should be for the benefit of the public and for those who are the users of the system, particularly at this stage in the evolution of health care in this country, we need the best ideas of everyone in the system or there will not be enough money in the system to deliver. I know the Minister feels some discom fort about being pushed to facilitate the del ivery of nurses.

I think I have adequately explained on the record why that is so important as part of the overall package. The second part that I would like to lead into is that there are certainly some concerns that are being raised across not only the urban areas where the training is concentrated largely but across the regions which I am more familiar with where the long-term availability of professionals is very often related to whether or not there is a broad enough cross-section. I know that includes doctors as well as nurses. I apologize for not perhaps having heard the answer, but did I understand the Minister yester-

5264 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 17 , 2000 day to say that he would be prepared to table with our critic-he does not need to table it with me, but he agreed to table with our critic-a profile of the decisions that are being made around accepting students for doctors of medi cine studies, and whether or not there are actually seats being put aside. I believe I heard him say that he would agree to provide some thing to our critic. Beca use it is a most troubling aspect of this.

You hate to have any kind of an arbitrary line, but unless there is something arbitrary done in this area, we will continue to have a preponderance in the populated areas and a lack of, in some of our rural areas. I see the Minister has a note there. Perhaps he could put something forward. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the Member for Russell asked, yesterday, about specified positions in the medical program at the Uni versity of Manitoba allocated for rural students. That often gets confused with the residency positions that are allocated in rural Manitoba, rural family medicine residents.

Okay, the Member understands that. The Member for Russell said that he thought that was actually a practice. I do not think it was. I asked the Department to check out whether in fact that had taken place. The note that I received from the Department says: the Faculty of Medicine has never allocated positions specifically for rural students. However, I am putting a caveat on that now.

I have indicated on many occasions in Estimates and in the House that we will be announcing a significant rural recruitment and retention strategy in Manitoba, and a number of provisions will be well received by all members ofthe House. * (15 :50) Mr. Cummings: Mr. Chair, I will look to your guidance when you wish to adjourn, but I will ask my next question. In a sense, I think the Minister and I have found some common ground. There is a concern. It certainly was a suggestion that I was of the understanding had been discussed.

Probably the Member for Russell and I go back a little further in history on this than we would care to think. But I believe, serious discussions were supposed to have occurred, at least, based on people's upbringing, based on a number of factors. The upshot of all this was, it was probably around the time when the general practitioner program was developed at Dauphin. That has been highly beneficial inasmuch as it exposed certain indivi duals to rural general practice, the type of doctors and the type of milieu that those doctors would have to operate in. Benefits are flowing from that.

So I would encourage the Minister to perhaps forward, if he has a rural manpower retention strategy. Then yes, we will be more than supportive to see something of a positive nature occur. I sense some unease on the part of the mem bers wanting to get to the House, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairperson: We still have seven minutes more or less. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, thank you, so as not to pro long this, I had asked the previous minister, for example, about this. That is why I was confused. Because the Member for Russeli-Roblin is usually pretty accurate in his statements, and he had said he thought there was a program.

The Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), I also think is pretty accurate. That is why I was hesitant in the House, yesterday, because I asked the Department to check that out. I was told that there are not at this point. specifically, slots set aside at the University of Manitoba for rural medical students. It might be similar to the same situation with regard to the expanded enrolment at the Faculty of Medicine. There were fairly advanced discussions that occurred under the previous government that did not fully come to fruition, that we have now taken up and are moving on.

So that could be the reason for the confusion in this regard, and that is why I was hesitant because I was of two minds in terms of the actual facts. As of today, from the briefing note that has been provided to me just as of last night's question, at present there are not those kinds of allocations. Mr. Chairperson: We will take a recess now so we do not get shut out of the Chamber. The Committee re cessed at 3:54 p.m. The Committee resumed at 4: 13 p.m.

August 17 , 2000 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5265 Mr. Chairperson: The meeting will come to or der. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Chairman, I will spend just a very brief moment or two on the doctor issue. Number one, the Minister, I believe, is being very candid and forthright on how he understands the seats that may or may not be available for rural students coming in. I accept what he says as being fact, that is not in question, but there certainly has been an understanding among myself and my colleagues that in fact there was an opportunity or a potential opportunity that could be realized here.

I take this beyond, whether it be Neepawa or Dauphin or Ste. Rose or areas that I am close to, but look at rural remote. I have seen lots of prestigious articles writ ten. I should not say lots, but I have seen good, well-written articles about prestigious, in the cases I am ref erring to, First Nation or Abori ginal professionals, who, because they got a leg up at the right time in the development of their career, were able and wanted to go back and serve in those communities.

For the record, not to berate the Minister, but for the record, for anybody who cares to look, I think that the officials in the universities and the people responsible for accepting en trances need to seriously consider this possi bility. That is not an affront to anybody. It is a recognition that positive action may well deal with some of the issues that we beat each other bloody over on political points. We search the world, frankly, looking for quality people to immigrate here to take positions in rural areas.

It is an area that, of course, leads to a fair bit of misunderstanding and accusations and need not necessarily follow that track.

One question that remains unanswered, and I asked it in an oblique and rambling way yesterday, that the Minister laughed at appro priately, because it is tied in my mind to dollars to get directly to the point, when the Minister is reviewing salaried positions across the province, and he would undoubtedly have the opportunity to do this in conjunction, I am sure, with the CEOs of the regions and other appropriate officials, does he believe that current salary levels that are being paid, as opposed to fee for service, are appropriate to attract doctors in this province, or does he believe that this also is an impedime nt to keeping adequate manpower?

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, firstly, I thank the Member for his comments. One of the statements I made yesterday in committee, I do not know if the Member was there, was I think that the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine, Doctor Hennen, is a very welcome addition to the province and is very cognizant and aware and active on the issues that the Member alluded to, that is, rur

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-80b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 80b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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