Manitoba Hansard — 29 June 1994 (Sitting 58, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-58

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session· Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLm No. 58 • 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, June 29, 1994 ISSN OS42-S492

NAME ASHI'ON, Steve BARRETI', Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENN S, Hany, Hon. ERNST, TlDl, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Tbirty-Fiftb Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoUtical AftlUation CONSTITUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Rossell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel StJames Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil GllLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli HELWER, Edward R. HICKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATIU.JN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,TlDl MANNES S, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK, Nanna McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Da.uen, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENB ERG, Hany STBFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St.

Johns Elmwood Morris Burrow s Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage la Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonn et Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere KirldieldPuk FlinFlon La Verendrye FortGany Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

4365 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, June 29,1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS ACCESS Program Funding Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lisa Jablonski, Helen Egyed, Ellen Olfert and others req uesting the Legislative Assembly req uest the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Manness) to consider restoring funding to the ACCESS program. Mr. George Dickes (Point Douglas) : Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of George Munroe , Laurie Wesley, Andrea Asham and others requesting the Legis lative Assembly request the Minister of Education and Training to consider restoring funding to the ACCESS program. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Vincent Stamler, Loni Beck, Buffie Macklin and others requesting the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Education and Training to consider resto ring funding to the ACCESS program. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Economic Development Mr.

Jack Reimer (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Economic Development): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Committee on Economic Development. Mr. Speak er: Dispense. Your St anding Comm ittee on Economic Develo pment presents the following as its Second Report. Your committee met on Tuesday, June 28,199 4, at 9 a.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. Your committee heard representation on bills as follows: Bill18, The Insurance Amendment Act,· Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur les assurances Mr. William 0' Brien -Insurance Brokers Association of Manitoba Bill 28, The Off -Road Vehicles Amendment Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur les v�hicules d caractire non routier Mr. William 0' Brien -Insurance Brokers Association of Manitoba Writt en Submissions Received: Bill 10 , The Wildlife Amend ment Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia conservation de Ia faune Ms . M. Scot t - Union of Manitoba Municipalities Your committee has considered: Bill 7, The Crown Lands Amend ment Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur les terres domaniales Bill 8, The Fisheries Amendment Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia piche Bill 9, The Convent ion Cent re Corporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Corporation du Centre des congris Bi ll10 , The Wildlife Amend ment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia conservation de Ia faune Billll , The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur I' AssembUe Ugislative Bi1112 , The Provincial Auditor's Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le verificateur provincial Bi/113, The Condominium Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les cond ominiums Billl4 , The Real Estate Brokers Amendment Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur les courtiers en immeubles

4366 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 Bill 18, The Insur ance Amend ment Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur les assurances Bill 23, The Manitoba Historical Society Property Act;

Loi sur les biens de Ia Soci�t� historique du Manitoba Bill 28, The Off -Road Vehicles Amendment Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur les v�hicules a caract�re non routier has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your committee has also consid ered: Bill 5, The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modijiant le Code de Ia route et apportant des modifications corrllatives and has agreed to report the same with the fo llowing amendments: MOTION: That clauses 171 (2 X

c) to (

e) of the French version, as set out in

section 7 of the Bill, be struck out and the fo llowing substituted:

c) d' en/ever une plaque d' immatriculation ou une vig net te de validation de Ia plaque d' immatriculation d' un vlhicule automobile ou d'une remorque, sauf si le propribaire y consent, que le registraire I' autorise ou que le prhent code ou les r�glements le prboient;

d) d' opposer ou de permettre que soit apposle sur un vihicule automobile ou une remorque une plaque d' immatriculation qui ne peut itre utilisie pour le vlhicule en que stion, sauf si le present code ou les r�glements le prboient;

e) d'utiliser ou de permettre que soit utilise un vlhicule automobile ou une remorque sur lequel est apposee une plaque d' immatriculation qui ne peut ltre utilis�e pour le vlhicule en question, sauf si le prlsent code ou les r�glements le prb oient. MOTION: THAT clause 29(

e) of the French version of the Bill be amend ed by striking out "eee. i)" and sub stituting "eee l)". Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honour able member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Law Amendmen ts Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Acting Chairper son of the Standin g Committee on Law Amendmen ts): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Fll'St Report of the Committee on Law Amendments . Mr. Speaker: Dispen se. Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the fo llowing as its First Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, June 28,199 4, at 9 am. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills ref erred. At that meeting your committee elected Mr. Penner as its Chairperson. Your committee heard representation on bills as fo llows: Bil/19, The Mental Health Amendment Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia santl mentale Ms. Nancy Davids -Private Citizen Mr. Bill Martin -Canadian Mental Health Association Bill 21 -The Manitoba Medical Association Dues Act;

Loi sur Ia cotisation de I' Association mldicale du Manitoba Mr. John Laplume -Manitoba Medical Association Bill 26--.4n Act to amend

An Act to Protect the Health of Non-Smokers (2),· Loi no 2 modijiant Ia

Loi sur Ia protection de Ia sant� des non-fumeurs Ms. Jane Stewart-Council fo r Tobacco Free Manitoba Writt en Submissions Received: Bill 2-The Prescription Drugs Cost Assistance Amendment and Pharmaceutical Amendment Act; Loi modi f iant Ia

Loi sur I' aide a I' a chat de medicaments sur ord onnance et Ia

Loi sur les pharmacies Mr. Peter Sim -Manitoba Association fo r Rights and Liberties Ms. Michelle Scott-Union of Manitoba Municipalities Bil l 4-The Energy and Consequen tial Amendmen ts Act;

Loi sur I' energie et apportant des modifications co"llatives

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4367 Mr. Peter Sim -Manitoba Association fo r Rights and Liberties Your committee has considered: Bill 2, The Prescription Drugs Cost Assistance Amendment and Pharmaceutical Amend ment Act; Loi modif iant Ia

Loi sur 1' aide tl 1' achat de m�dicaments sur ord onnance et Ia

Loi sur les pharmacies Bill 3, The Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation Amendme nt Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Fondation de traitement du cancer et de recherche en canc�rologie Bi11 15, The Law Society Amend ment Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Soci�t� du Barreau Bill 19, The Mental Health Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia sant� mentale Bill 21, The Manitoba Medical Association Dues Act;

Loi sur Ia cotisation de 1' Association midicale du Manitoba Bill 26,

An Act to amend

An Act to Protect the Health of Non-Smokers (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia protection de Ia sant� des non-fumeurs and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your committee has also consid ered: Bil/4, The Energy and Consequential Amendments Ac t;

Loi sur 1' in ergie et apportant des modifications co"ilatives and has agreed to report the same with the fo llowing amendments: MOTION: THAT the English version of sub

section 7(3) be amended in the part preceding clause (

a) by striking out "a prescribed energy-using produ ct is" and substituting "prescribed energy-using products are". MOTION: THAT the English version of clause 10(1)(

b) be amended by striking out "that" and sub stituting "than". MOTION: THAT subse ction 10(2 ) be amended by striking out ", employee". Mr. McAlpine: I move , secon ded by the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacq uay), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Negotiations on Internal Trade Barriers Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Spea ker, I have a statement for the House .

I am pleased to rise in the House toda y as co-chairman of the Committee of Ministers of Internal Trade to announce that the fe deral, provincial and territorial repre sentatives have reached an agreement in principle on a comprehensive agree ment to reduce and eliminate internal barriers to trad e within Canada. I believe that this is a trul y histori c event for Manitob a and for Canada . At the outset, I would like to ackn owledge the neg otiators for the Province of Manitob a, particularly my colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stef anson}, who was the co-chair of the negoti ations prior to my taking on the responsib ility. As well, I would like to acknowledge Paul Goyan and Allan Barber for their bard work and their commitment in the negotiatio ns . I would like to also ackn owledge and thank Mr. Arthur Mauro , who has done a trem endous job of cbainn an and chief negotiator, for his excellent work on behalf of the people of this country . •

(1335) In 1992, First Ministers set a deadline of June of 1995 for dealing with internal trade barriers. Ministers for internal trade launched comprehensi ve negotia tions in March of 1993 to conclude an agreement by June 30, 1994, and to be ratified and implemented by June of 1995. A comprehensi ve agree ment to reduce and eliminate interpro vincial trade barriers that have emerged over the past 127 years is vital to the economic well-being of Manitob a and of Canada.

4368 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 Manitob a is a trading province and our conti nued prosperi ty is direc tly depend ent upon an open and efficient internal market Internal trade barriers are estim ated to cost Canada almost $7 billion annua lly. These costs are parti cularly import ant to Manitob a since we are one of the provinces which depend upon trading within Canada Manitob a exports over 60 percent more wit hin Canada than it does international ly . Removing barriers to this trade will enab le Mani toba business to grow and prosper.

Internal trade barriers cost Manitob ans an estima ted $300 million each year. Enormous progress has be en made with the agreement reache d yesterday in Ottawa.

The agreement includes: a framewolk based upon general trade rules appl icable to all governments; a dispute settlement mechanism for resolving issues on internal trade matters including access to this process for the private sector; the opening of a public sector procureme nt malket of almost $50 billion to all businesses in Canada and commitments to continue negoti ations to open the proc urement of Crown corporati ons; a code of conduct to prevent des tructiv e competi tio n for investm ent and put an end to the senseless bidding wars pitti ng province agains t province and wasting taxp ayers' dollars; a framewolk and a commitment to deal with differences in occupation al standards and qua lification req uirements tha t limit the mobility of wolkers and prof ession als within Canada; and an agreeme nt not to create any new barriers to internal trade.

Mr. Speaker, this agreement repr esents an enorm ous breakthrough in an area that all governments have been wrestling with since 1985. lbere remain some matters which we will wolk to resolve in the near fut ure . We have agreed to conti nue negoti ations on internal trade barriers in the area of agriculture and food prod ucts, energy and alc ohol be verag es, to res olve outstan ding issues in these areas in time for them to be part of our formal agreement. Mr.

Speaker, I truly believe that this agree ment represents a crucial step in rest oring the faith of Can adian s in the functioning of the Can adian economic union. It demons trates the commitment of all governments to wolk together to addre ss the issues that have arisen over the past 127 years . The lowering of trade barriers within Canad a will allow Manitob ans to reap the be nefits of a unified Canadian market.

The opening of previously restricted markets in Canada will create new oppo rtunities for Manitob ans and the elimination of p rocure ment barriers, and the establishment of a code of conduct and investment will directly benefit tax paye rs. This agree ment will rei nforce Manitoba 's eff ort s to make efficient use of every tax dollar. It has been my privile ge, Mr. Spea ker, to represe nt Manitob a in these negoti ations, and I am proud to anno unce to this House the conclusion of what I believe is a histori c agreement Thank you. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr.

Speaker, I wan t to thank the Deputy Premier and the co-chair of the national committee for his state ment today in the Chamber. I want to pass on our best reg ards to Mr. Mauro and members who represented Manitob a in these negoti ations. Mr.

Speaker, I know that every agree ment that is reached in Canad a is called historic, and I know that I have perh aps used that term myself , but certainly this agreement does produce some re sults, and it does provide a number of ex ceptio ns, and it provides a number of challenges that are still umesolved in this trade agree ment So I think there is a lot of wolk ahead, ifl must say so to the members oppos ite and to the trades ministers across the country . First of all, Mr. Speaker, I have always been opposed to provinces bidding for jobs through taxpay ers' money and taxp ayers ' grants .

If you just look at the telemarketing situation in Canada today, we have a Liberal government in New Brunswic k that put money into jobs for Federal Express. We have a Conserv ative government in Manit oba that put money into OWE, and we have an NDP government in Saskatchewan that put money into the Sears marlceting operati on, all of which is wrong beca use, ultimate ly, those are three different governments , three different politi cal stripes with the same prob lem.

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4369 A code of cond uct, Mr. Speaker, will not deal with that problem, and there is no real teeth in this measure that has been agreed to by provinces. As we have lost a number of jobs to Alberta through the former Conservative government putting in tremendous public support to the Cargill plant and we have lost jobs potentially with the Simplot plant in Brandon, I do not think this problem has been solved, quite fran kly, in the communique issued today . •

(1340) Secondly , Mr. Speaker, there are exceptions for Crown co:rporations, but there are no exceptions for social priorities of provinces. 1be whole area of regional economic development which was put on the table by some provinces, the whole area of northern unemployment and northern aboriginal hiring was not dealt with, I think, adequately by the ministers. It has been an area which we believe should be part of a trade agree ment, an affirm ative action program, to hire and train northerners and northern aboriginal people , and we think that is missing.

Thirdly, there is no strategy to deal with making sure that the floor of trading for goods and services is equal, Mr. Speaker, that labour laws , workplace safety and health laws, minimum construction laws , have a national agreement to them, so that we are truly competing on an equal basis. 1bere are jobs now in Manitoba that are being filled by construction firms from Alberta. Even I believe the latest national disease headquarters has a number of jobs being fulfilled not by Manitobans but by companies from Alberta.

It is important I know when I wa s Minister of telephone s, companies in Sa skatchewan would bid into Manitoba and be part of the tendering process, yet we could not bid into Saskatchewan. I think progress in this area is really important. I want to congratulate the minister in his work.

As I say, I think we have a lot of challenges to meet still on this very, very important item of having fair treatment of goods and services, of fair trading pra ctices between provinces and an aggressive app roach to dealing with taxpayers ' money going to, as David Lewis used to say, co:rporate welfare bums who just up the ante in terms of grants from the public. Thank you. Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Oppos ition): We , too, would like to join with the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and the Leader of the Opposition in thanking the participan ts, on behalf of the Province of Manitoba, who have been down at these negotiations most recen tly , but have been involved in a very real way and through some very difficult negotiations for a number of years . 1bey have served us well and, I think, kept cool beads throughout. I think we are all very pleased the partie�and we have all seen over the years the very different app roaches that were taken and the very different philosophies that came into these negotiations. Really, to see progress like this is encoura ging.

Is it as much as was hoped for? aearly not, Mr. Speaker, and I think we hope it will continue and set a precedent for further discus sions. It is indeed anomalous and I suggest quite damaging to our country that we are now and have been for some time making it more difficult to deal with each other than it is with the rest of the world. 1be way the world is evolving is clear and that is towards a freer trade between nations, between peoples of all continen ts, and it was becoming ea sier for us to trade with Mexico than Saskatchewan. Mr.

Speaker, many have suggested and I think quite rightly that if we were going to tole rate that for the long term, we deserved our fate in this country. I am very pleased that the governments have worked together across this country from the various poJitical perspectives to come up with an agree ment which I hope sets a precedent for future agreements that have more tee th. I do share the comments of the Leader of the Opposition that I think it is an agreement in principle .

It is going to rely on good faith, a commitment from all the provinces, but ultimately, I think, we do want to see a more stringent agreement between the provin ces in this country that will not be at the mercy of the parti cular ups and downs of the political situation in each

4370 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A June 29, 1994 province but will serve us well into the next century. Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have seen the governments work together, obviously very much appreciate the efforts of the negotiators here in Manitoba and, as well, the efforts of Mr. Mauro and the eff orts, I think , of the fe deral government as they brought this to a conclus ion. Indeed , it was started under the prior administration but was continued and to a successful conclusion in a very, I think, co-oper ative fashion. Thank you. •

(1345) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Biii220-The Electi ons Amendment Act Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): I mo ve, seconded by the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes), that leave be given to introduce Bill 220, The Elections Amendment Act; Loi modifiant 1a

Loi sur les �lections, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Moti on prese nted. Mr. Mackintosh : This bill gets patronage out of the administration of elections insofar as it takes the power to appoint returning officers from the cabinet and gives tbat power to the Olief Electoral Officer to be exercised by considering me rit. I cann ot imagine an area where patronage is more repugnant than election administrati on.

The bill will ensure that returning officers are both seen to be, and are actually , impartial and makes am ove to a timely appointment process and professio nally trained administrat ors. This measure is recommended by the Chief Electoral Officer and was most recently urged in regard to last year's by-election in St. Johns. Motion agreed to. Biii 31- The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corpontion Amendment and Income Tax Amendment Act Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if we might have leave to introduce for first reading, Bill 31, The Manitoba Employee Owner ship Fund Cor poration Amendment and Income Tax Amendment Act (Loi modifi.ant Ia Loi constituant en corporation le Fonds de participation des travailleurs du Manitoba et Ia Loi de L'impOt sur le revenu ). Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to introduce Bill 31 for first reading at this time? [agre ed ] Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Spe aker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae ), that leave be given to introduce Bill 31, The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation Amendment and Income Tax Amendment Act (Loi modifi.ant Ia Loi constituant en corporation le Fonds de participation des travailleurs du Manitoba et la Loi de L 'imp6t sur le reven u), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenan t-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the message as well . Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the atte ntion of honourable members to the gall ery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Winkler Elementary School seventy-five Grade 5 students under the direction of Mr. E. Claa ssen. This school is loca ted in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Pukatawagan, Manitoba Health Emergency Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr.

Film on) or Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae). Last week, I had the opportunity to travel to the Mathias Colomb Ba nd or the Pukataw agan community, along with the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) and the member fo r The Pas (Mr.

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4371 Lathlin). I was quite astounded by the health conditions in the community and the situation with the sewage lagoon and the water situation. It was astonishing for me to find out that the water was being boiled for over six months and, of course, the member for Flin Flon raised this with the Minister of Health last week in the House and, before that, privately. Today we have received a copy fr om the Minister of Health of the chief medical officer's report, Dr. John Guilfoy le, dealing with the Pukatawagan situation.

He confinns our concerns last week, concerns raised by the member for F1in Flon, that 1,10 0 people had suffered from skin disease out of a communit y of 1,700. This is an absolute national disgrace of major proportions in terms of that many people being affected. • (1 350) Mr. Spe aker, the chief medical officer of Manitoba concludes that a health emergency does exist in this community due to its lack of a safe supply of drinking water, a very, very serious situation for any Manitoba community .

I would like to ask the Minister of Health: Has be been in contact with the fed eral government , and what action is either he or the Minister responsible for Federal-Provincial Relations, the Premi er (Mr. Film on), taking with the fe deral government on this very, very important health emerge ncy. Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) appropriately raised this matter with me. Worldng together, we asked Dr. Guilf oyle to look further into this situation. The day before yestetday, Dr.

Guilf oyle and two others travelled to Mathias Colomb and looked at the situation. Dr. Guilfoyle reported to me yestetday , and I shared the report with the honourable member for F1in Flon. Dr. Guilfoyle does not have very nice things to say, Mr.

Speaker, about the circumstances that have existed at Pukataw agan-very strong language to describe the way he fe els about whoever it was who designed the water system in that are a, and very strong language also with respect to whose responsi bility it is to do something about that and to do something about it immediately' so the situation can be remediated for the people who live in that area. That system is serving supposedly 1, 700 people , Mr. Speaker, and is designed to serve 250. It is just totally unsatisf actory. Dr.

Guilfoyle has agreed to prepare a communication for me to send to the federal officials, the member of Parliament for that area and anybody else who needs to be alerted to the situation so that something can be done immediately. Mr. Doer: If this situation existed in any southern community in Manitoba, any of our communities , Mr. Speaker, it would be an absolute emergency that would be dealt with immediately , and the fact that the people of this community have had to boil their water for over six months, and 1, 100 cases have been reported by that community is, as I say, a national disgrace. Mr.

Speaker, the federal government designed a plant that according to Dr. Guilf oyle, the sewage treatment plant is designed to deal with the sewage from 70 home s, this peculiar design which seems to be uncommonly inefficient in dealing with sewage . Tests have revealed that the bacterial contamination of sewage after treatment is actually higher than before treatment. This plant currently discharges sewage approximately 20 metres off the shore into an area where children swim. Now, when I visited that community, you could see iL I certainly did not know it was this bad.

It is a health emergency for all citizens of Manitoba, and I thank the minister for getting involved in it. I would like to ask the Minister of Health: What response bas the minister received from the fe deral minister responsible and from the federal government of Canada? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, we know the response since last fall bas been zero to a situation which leaves the people of Pukatawagan in a health emergency situation, acconling to Dr. Guilfo yle. As I say , Dr. Guilf oyle and I and no doubt the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) are making

4372 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 every effort to ensure that we are not going to allow the fe deral gove rnment or the local government for that matter to allow this matte r to persist. It is not appropriate for the people who live in that area. This water, Mr. Speake r, is not even good enough to bathe in. The people there have to buy their wate r in bottles . That might be all right for consum ption pmposes, but when the wate r is so unsafe that you cann ot even bathe in it without putting your health at risk, it seems to me the authority that has the respon sibility for it ought to waste no further days in addressing the problem. •

(1355) Mr. Doer: I thank the minister for that answer. Capital Funding Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : In the last parag raph of Dr. Guilfoy le's report, he mentions very clearly that- prior to that, he mentions the whole fact that the capital design by the fe de ral government was totally inadequate both in size and also in design. He goes on further to say that the band has no other capital to deal with this issue, and he states that they plan to access emergency funds under the transf er agreement with the federal government.

I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Federal-Provincial Relations (Mr. Filmon): Will he facil itate this transfer under this agree ment with the federal government? The lead minister or the Premier has dealt with other transfer agreements before with the federal jurisdiction. Would he also wodc with the Min ister of Health to make sure that this health eme rgency gets the emergency funds that may be available from the federal government and must be available for the fe deral government to deal with this health problem? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health) : If in our inquiries today from the fed eral government there is not a willingness to move immediately, I will call on the se rvices of the department of feder al-provincial relations to assist me in getting that job done. It is not appropriate or acceptable that the fe deral government allow this matter to drag any further. I do not really know whose fault this is, whether it is the band 's fault or the fe deral government's fau lt, but the fact is, the fe de ral government has a responsibility for First Nations in this province .

If they can negotiate self -gove rnment agreements , that is fine and dandy, Mr. Speaker, but right now we have a problem that needs to be addressed immediately . Goods and Services Tax Replacement Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East ): I have a question for the Premie r. All ma jor media reported today that the fe deral Ministe r of Finance, Mr. Martin, has floated the idea of a single , national harmonized sales tax pegged at 10 percent to replace the GST. You might want to call it son of GST, maybe , Mr. Speak er. The provinces would get 60 percent of the revenue from such a tax.

Howeve r, there could be a shortf all as a result of such a tax change . In return, the federal government apparently would give the provinces the right to impose a fiat tax on income . My question to the Premier is: Can he confirm that the federal government has indeed offered to create a single tax of 10 per cent, and can the Premier indicate whether the 10 percent rate would be applied to food and other items not now covered by the provincial sales tax? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speake r, I just caution the member for Brandon East for putting on the record what might be considered a sexist remade.

It could also be the daughter of GST. Having said that-[i ntetjection] I will not engage in any discussi ons with the member for Wellington (Ms. Baue tt) on that. Mr. Speaker, I cann ot confinn the veracity of those newspaper reports with respect to the fe deral proposal, but I can confirm that a quick analysis of what that would produce would be a shortf all to the Tre asury of Manitoba of I believe just under $200 mill ion ann uall y.

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4373 The refo re , we would be put in a position of having to take the respons ibility to raise the funds and, presumably, the fe deral government would give us some initiative or assistance in raising the funds by raising some other taxes to supplant the loss. It looks very, very much as though it is a proposal that is not in the best interests of Manitoba. That is all I can say. I expect to get a full report from our Ministe r of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson), who is curre ntly in the midst of meetings with his fede ral and provincial counte tparts on the issue. • (1400 ) Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I am inclined to agree with the Premier and his answ er in this case about the loss of sales tax revenue . I appreciate this is very early, but I wonde r if the Premie r could indicate what impact this would have on income tax. If there was this loss of $200 mill ion, can he imagine to what degree individual income tax rates would have to be increased as a consequence of the federal proposal? Mr.

Filmon: I want to emphasize that we are talking in hypothetical terms. I am reluctant to do that other than to say, yes, the counte r side of the proposal, as I understand it, would require us to make ma jor increases in personal income tax rates in order to su pplant the loss of revenue from that proposal. That simply is a very, very bad proposal, from our perspective. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, my final question then is: Will the Premier now reass ure Manitobans that his gov ernme nt will not give in to pressure from the federal Mini ster of Finance and Mr.

Olretien to broaden the base of our provincial sales taxes and indeed the national sales taxes so that food and medicine and other vital items would be included in the future 7 Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, as I have said in this House earlier this week and late last week, we are adamantly opposed to the proposal that has been put forward by the fe der al Liberal committee that studied the replacement for the GST that would call for its ap plication to be broadened onto groceri es, medical supplie s, all of those areas that were rejected in the first round of discussions that led to the GST as we now know it.

All the most damaging and negative aspects of the original GST proposals now ap pear to have been reborn in this proposal along with the proposal to hide it and bury it within the prices so that people are not aware when taxes are increased, along with the othe r element of the proposal , which was to harmonize it, again with the negative impacts on our Treasury and on cons umers in particular, as it implies a transf e rence from businesses to consumers of the burden of the tax.

All of that is so negative that I find it difficult to believe that the new fe deral government would even conside r that and is, in fac t, realistically proposing it to Cana dians. Winnipeg Jets GovernmentPomoon Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Oppomtion): Mr. Speaker, in the last 48 hours, the Premier has been making comments about the status of negotiations that he is aware of that are going on between the ma jority shareholders of the Winnipeg Jets and others to find out whethe r or not some reconciliation can be made to keep the team in the city for a further year, as recommended by the Bums report.

Mr. Speake r, my question for the Premie r: The assumption that I think all in this Chamber are functioning under and indeed I think has been the message that has been sent to the public is that the government will have nothing more to contribute to the Winnipeg Jets with respect to this deal that is ongoin g. Yet the Premier, obviously , and the various levels of government have to be invol ved, as they have certain rights under that initial agreement, but it does not involve further money.

I would like the Premie r just to, if he would, confum that, that this is the app roach he is taking in these negotiations and, if possible, identify for members of the Chamber what the status of those discussions are, to his knowled ge. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank the Leader of the Liberal Party for the question, and I am happy to share all the information that I can. I will

4374 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 say that I hope to have a letter in my hands-if it arrives before the end of Question Period, I will table it; if not, I will deliver it to the offices of both opp osi tio n caucuse s-from the ma jo rity shareholders of the Winnipe g Jets confirming that they have, in effect, given an option to purchase all or part of their shares in the club to a private-sect or-based group.

I met with three repr esent at ives of the private-sector-based group yesterday afternoon to confum that they were making this offer on the condition that the clause that allows for the exercise of the option at an agree d-upon price is extended to May 1 of 1995, which time extension is intended to give the opp ortunity for the ability to prove whether or not the seats in the arena, the boxes and all of the premium seating that is contempl ated in Bums can be achieved to allow for $27 million of annu al revenue to flow and for this private sector group to demonstrate whether or not they can also find private sector capital to contr ibut e tow ards the construction and deve lopme m of a new arena and to allow for the time that is necessary to prove whether or not a salary cap on play ers' salaries will come to the Nm. during the immediate future.

Final ly, I would say that this private sector group who are putting up their own capital towanls this vent ure are also proposing to take the responsibility for the design and engineering developments that have to take place over the next year, concurrent with this, so that a year of construction is not lost if a go decision is to be made next spring. 1be private sector group, I am satisfied, not only has the wherewithal, but I am satisfied that they have the motivation to make all of this work and to prove and de monstrate that private sector funding is available for the process .

I would just say to the Leader of the Liberal Party that, as I believe his party has gone on record, we have indicated that some limited support as was contemplated by the Mauro committee that contemplated up to, say, $30 million of fe deral, provincial and mu nicipal money, the provincial share of course wo uld probably include the value of the land, which I think is worth about $5 million as part of the provincial contri bution. That remains on the table as part of a potential mix of fundi ng. It has not changed.

I might say as well to him that our hope of course is that all of the money necessary for the arena can be found through the private sector and creative financing source s. Economic Viability Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Sec ond Opposition): Just to clarify , Mr. Speaker, the position which has been arti culated previously in this Chamber on behalf of our party has been that any contribution from the levels of governme nt, from this level of government, the provincial lev el, must be cost neutral. We all know the construction its elf produces revenues dir ectly over the construction period.

Cost-neutral contributions have been what have been talked about Of course, I share with the Premier the-we have suggested the bond issue idea, that it be raised from the private sector. My supplementary question for the Premier is: Underlying all of this, and he has indicated it is the ultimate economic viability of the Winnipeg Jets over the long term, in a year 's time how does the Premier propose, or has he thought about it at this point, to assess , how will gove rnments assess whether or not this team is e conomically viable for the medium to long term, which might wammt the construction of a facil ity?

That is the critical, underlying precondition of this whole debate. •

(1410) Bon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, our assessment will be based on the achie vement of three things. One is a salary cap, because I think even the Bums proposal says this razor-thin marginal deal that they see coming together would not be doable without a salary cap. 1be second thing we have to assess is whether or not this private sector group who are going to

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4375 attempt to go out and mmet boxes and luxury seats to raise the income from the team to $27 million can achieve that target. 1be third thing is the degree of private sector capital availa ble for the construction and development of the new arena facility. All those thr ee things will be the basis upon which we will make our evaluati on.

The member is quite right when he says there are significant revenues that accrue, even aside from the construction of the arena, which will produce not only thousands of construction job s but at the same ti me of course direct revenues to government. All of that is part and parce l of the equation. The final parcel of the equation of cours e is that this team curre ntl y provides an average , over the las t three or four years of the agree ment, of $14 million of ann ual direc t revenues to government, which is expected to rise to $20 million by 1996-97--direct tax reven ues to government.

The question is, what are we going to do to repl ace that to provide the funding that we need for government servi ces-- Mr. Speaker: Order, pleas e. Winnipeg Arena Design Costs Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): I have a final qu est ion for the Premier, Mr. Speaker. There has been much discussi on in the last 24 homs about the amount of money that is going to be req uired to satisfy the government 's initial designing of a facility, sho uld it go ahead, and the figure $75 0,000 has been kicked around in the press.

My qu es tion for the Premier : What is his inf onn ation as to the amount, and where is that money coming from? I think I beard him say it is coming from the private sector, but can be indicate where the money is coming from, and if be could also indicate what his inf ormation is as to the amount that has been committed of preliminary wolk? Boo. Gary Filmon (Premier): Initi ally, the three levels of government were proposing that they would be respo nsib le for the cost of design .

In my discussions yesterday, the people whom I spok e to indicated they fe lt that the money could come from private sector sourc es. Seven Oaks General Hospital Private Home Care Ser vices Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, this governm ent has said their bottom line in health is patient care. Yet, even the president of a major hospital has said the government is only interested in cutting costs.

This year Seven Oaks has over a million-dollar cut from this government, has been forced to close the hospital on Film on Fridays, yet the government has found money to pay for their friends at We Care private nursing services . Since the Premier is so forthcoming about the Jets and all the financial inf ormation, can the Minister of Health tell us how much the government is paying to We Care Health Services for that contra ct at Seven Oaks? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I agree, Mr. Speaker, that the bottom line is patient care.

As a result of a question raised yesterday by the honourab le member for Brando n East (Mr. Leo nard Evans ), the issue became rather clear that patient care is the bottom line. I would like to quote from a letter in relation to the issue raised by the honourab le member with respect to patient care, and it is from Jack Litvack, the president of the-Oh, I am not goin g to have time for that, Mr. Speaker? It is very relevant. [interj ecti on] I think maybe I will deal with that in another way, Mr. Speaker. The issue that the honourable member asks about- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Point of Order Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I be lieve, Mr. Spea ker, that when a member refere nces a letter, they must table it in the Chamber, please .

4376 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 Mr. McCrae: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker , I would love to table this le tter. It is so positive . It is so positive, I am afraid honourable members in the New Democratic Party would refuse to read it. Mr. Speaker: Are you going to table it? Do you want to table it? You do not have to, but I am asking. Mr. McCrae: Yes, I will read it I will just read the last- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Orde r, please. The honourable Minister of Health, carry on with your response, and you want to table the letter. ••• Mr. McCrae: Yes.

In concluding my response, Mr. Speaker, I will read the last paragraph of the letter ref eued to. It says: The leadership which was shown by Manitoba Health staff and others was most gratifying. I wanted you to be aware of our appre ciation fo r Ibis constructive and collaborative assistance. Thank you. Sincere ly, J.T. Litvack, President, St Boniface Hosp ital. I would table this letter for honourable members to read, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, they will give us the money on the Je ts, and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) can go on for five minutes on the Je ts, but the minister refuses to tell us.

W ill the minister tell us how much his friends at We Care are getting for their private nursing contract? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, the people at We Care Health Services, which is canying out this pilot with Seven Oaks Hospital, their friends seem to be the patients who are being served by them and who speak very highly of the work being done in Ibis project. The people who are being served under this project have very, very high praise for the service. As one of the local broadcasters- I think: it was CKY TV -said, the patients love Ibis service; the NDP hates it. We ll, Mr.

Speaker, that says a lot to me about where the NDP is coming from in this whole discussion. Mr. Chom iak: Mr. Spea ker , my final supple mentary to the minister: Will the Minister of Health tell this House how much this government is paying We Care Health Services to carry out the government 's pilot project, which probably is in excess of $100 ,0007 Mr. McCrae: It would probably be mo re accurate, Mr. Speaker, to discuss the savings and the relief to patients in the hundreds of thousands of dollars than it would be to the company that is involved. It just goes to show you, Mr.

Speaker, when it comes to patients and the bottom line, we know where the NDP is. They are not on the side of the patients , never have been. They have made their position very clear. They are on the side of their union boss friends. Farm Safety Net Programs Manitoba Position Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Spea ker, this coming week the Ministers of Agriculture are going to be meeting in Winnipeg. The minister has indicated that safety net programs will be on the agenda.

Other provinces have put together proposals, have held public meetings for fa rmers to have input on how these programs should be designed, but we have not had that in Manitoba. Can the minister indicate what position he is taking to these meetings? Has he given any consideration to base Manitoba's proposal on the cost of production or capping the amount of money that can go to each fa rm, thus targeting more fam ily farms in Ibis province? Bon. BaiTy Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, allow me simply to correc t the honourable member's implication that meetin gs have not been held throughout Manitoba.

We have had a very well-comprised commi ttee representing diff erent commo dity producer organizations assisting in the development of a Manitoba position. In addition, of course, we have ongoing meet ings with the premier farm organization, namely, the Keystone Agricultural

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4377 Producers organization whose pr esident , Mr. Ransome, serves on this committee. So that kind of discussion has taken place. Of course, at the different f ann meetings that I have atte nded throughout the province during the course of the last five or six months, this issue has always been on the agenda, so there has been lots of input from the various primary producers , agricultural producers as to the Manitoba position on these matters. Ms. Wowdtuk: Mr. Speak er, I am surprised.

I have not heard of any public meetings being announced to discuss this issue . [interjection] The Minister of Highways (Mr. Findlay) had his chance at Agriculture. Since it is a fact that a large perc entage of the funds in safety net programs is benefiting a small number of farmers to a greater degree than the majority of farmers-large operations are getting more of the money-and since the fed eral budget will be cut by up to 40 percent, farm safety net programs will be greatly reduced.

W ill the minister agree that it makes sense to cap the amount of public money, so that we can help more f anners, so more people can stay in the rural community, and this would tie into the sustainable development- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. •

(1420) Mr. Eons: Mr. Spea ker, I would just gently remind the honourable member to look at one of the major safety net programs involvi ng most of the farmers, say, in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, the GRIP program, and ask her colleagues in Saskatchewan how they fared and how the coverage fared under those two equal progr ams. I have said before and I am pleased to say again, that is a single success story for us, although I would hope, quite frankly, that that kind of level of support harvest conditions would mitigate from happe ning again.

The supp ort was there, and that is what safety programs are for. That is why the GRIP program continues to be a major portion of the pro grams that I am putting forward into next week 's confe rence. We are looking very seriously at the suggestions that are coming forward from other provinces , as well as from the fed eral governme nt about what Mr. Goodale calls a whole -fann support program, support to replace the outgoing tripartite programs that were there certainly, for instance-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. You will have another opportunity. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Spe aker, the minister says he is looking for suggest ions, and I am offering suggestions about capping- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate . Question. Ms. Wowchuk: My final supplemen tary: In light of the fact that the pa y-the-producer panel projects a minimum loss of $43 mill ion to Manitoba, and this will result in losses of $1,700 to $3,100 per farm and we cannot afford that loss in rural Manitoba, will the Minister of Agriculture be taking forward the po sition that change to pay -the-producer is not acceptable in Manitoba and it will destroy the economy in rural Manitoba? Mr.

Eons: Mr. Speak er, I can only reply by saying that the very wide range of issues extremely imp ortant to agricult ure in Manitoba and to Canada will be discusse d next week. They include the transportation questions; they include the safety net progra ms. They include supply management programs ordering the marketing programs. They include our ongoing trade difficulties with our major trading partner, the United States. I will undertake, Mr. Speaker, to provide, because I am just� kind of a guy, a

summary of the deliberations of the conference to my critics, both of the New Democratic Party and of the Liberal Party, at the conclusion of the conference. Rural Development Video Production Costs Bon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I want to respond to questions from the member for Flin Flon (Mr.

4378 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 Storie ) on June 28, which was yesterday, to which I took notice. First of all, I want to rej ect any and all of the statements that were made with respect to the video by the member for F1in Flon. It is obvious that this member and his party do not support entrepreneurship and small business in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, and it was evident by the questions that were posed yesterday . Mr.

Spea ker, the video produced by my department that the member refers to was entitled Strong People Building a Stronger Tomorrow and was designed to support rural Manitoba entrepreneurship and small business. It did fe ature a segment with the individual identified by the member as the owner of Kitemandu, a kite manufacturer from Neepawa. My department contacted Mr. Bell yesterday regarding the question from the member for F1in Flon. Mr. Bell con finned that he is intending to move to Ontario. Mr. Bell con finn ed that his move has nothing to do with his business.

As a matter of fa ct, his move is regarding a family matter and a recent death in the family. Mr. Bell exp ressed his disapp ointment that anyone would depict his move as a negative commentary on the business climate in Manitoba. He said- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Hold it for a minute. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Spe aker- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable opposition House leader has the floor. Order, pl ease, the honourable member for F1in Flon (Mr. Storie), the honourable member for Dauphin (Mr. Plobman).

Order , please, the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay ). Now we will hear your point of order, sir. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, Bea uchesne Citation 417 is very clear, that answers to questions should be as brief as possible and deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate . Mr. Speaker, this is particularly true of questions that are taken as notice, and we would appreciate if the minister would simply provide the information and perhaps also indicate in his answer, the member for Flin Flon was absolutely right in indicating that the video gave a fa lse- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please . On the latter part of the comments of the honourable member for Thompson, they are not relevant to the point of order. There is no point of order. I believe the honourable minister was dealing with the matter raised ••• Mr. Der kacb: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Bell expressed his dis app ointment that anyone would depict his move as a negative commentary on the business climate of Manitoba. He said the reasons he came here three years ago are still valid for the kite manuf acturing business today in Manitoba.

As a matter of fa ct, he came to Manitoba because of the environment, because of the good labour force and because of the Central Time Zone in Manitoba. Mr. Bell is a native of Neepawa, and he was happy to come back to Manitoba three years ago to start his business. Victims Assistance Fund Status Report Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellingt on): Mr. Speaker, many nongovernmental agencies who provide much needed services to victims of crime have had grant appl ications into the Victims Assistance Fund, some of them for as long as two or more years.

W ill the Minister of Justice tell the House today if there are extemal agencies who will be receiving funds from the Victims Assistan ce Fund? Bon. Rose mary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I believe we covered this issue in the Estimates of the Department of Justice. At that time, I explained to the member that there had been some app lications which were in and others which had been grandfathe red in. I understand at this point all of those agencies have had some notice as to whether or not they would be receiving funds or not.

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4379 If the member has an indication of an agency where it is outstanding still, I would be very pleased to know about that, those app lications which she is speaking about which have been of long standing. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, when will these external agencies that are going to have money granted by the Victims Assistance Fund be inf ormed as to when the money will actually flow so that they can make plans for their programs that they would be undertaking with these funds? When will they know when the money is coming? Mrs . Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, it is my understanding for those agencies which are to be receiving money, of those outstanding appl ications-not the new ap plications, but outstanding applications -they have been contacted, and to the best of my knowle dge, they were required to meet certain criteria. Within their app lication, they were required to clarify or to make certain accommodations in order to actually receive their money, and that process , to the best of my knowl edge, is ongoing.

Until they have agreed to meet those conditio ns, I am not able to tell the member today exactly the date that the funds will flow to those agenci es. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, when those funds finally flow, some that are over two years in the pipeline , how much money will the Victims Assistan ce Fund be granting to e:xtemal agencies for services to victims of crime? Mrs . Vodrey: Mr. Speaker , when that money flows, I will be able to give the member an amount of money which has flowed to agencies .

The member speaks about appli cations which are outstanding, some of which because they are required to meet certain criteria or conditions to have the money flow, and then we will be looking at any new app lications which come for further funding in a new fiscal year. •

(1430) Social Assistance Welfare Abuse Reporting Ms. Norma McC or mick (Osbo rne): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. For weeks now we have been asking for details of a number of Family Services announcements intending to remove barri ers to employment. Few if any details were forthcoming. Today we have a completely mean-s pirited announce ment of a 945-STOP line to encourage the public to report on potential welfare abu se.

My que stion to the Premier is: How is this snitch line a priority for the expenditure of money in the Family Services department when a statistical analysis on founded cases of welf are fraud between 1991 and 1993 reveals that fraud is not an increasing or even significant problem? Hon. Gary Filmon (Prem ier): Mr. Speaker, I find it very difficult to accept from the member for Osborne that she supports letting any fraud, any fraud whatsoever go on in the welfare system . In fa ct, even if it is $1, it is taxpayers ' money that is not well spent.

What we are atte mpting to do is ensure that the very scarce dollars we have are given to those who need it, not those who willin gly abuse the system . I think she ought to be ashamed of herself. Ms. McCormick: Mr. Speaker, the tone of the Premier's re sponse and the tone of this press release is further- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate. We are out of time. The honourable member for Osborne, kindly put your question now, please . Ms. McCormick: The tone of this press release is- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

We are out of time . 1be honourable member for Osborne, kindly put your question now, please. Ms. McCormick: Given the tone of this press release, which is further indication that this department holds its citizens and its clients in contempt, what is the basis of this latest attack on the most vulnerable people in our community, when study after study, including one by this- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question now. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, we want those who legitima tely are entitled to receive social

4380 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 all owances to receive the most that they can receive of the s carce dollars we have. The people I hold in contempt are those who support fraud. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has exp ired . Point of Order Mr. Stev e Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, I think the Premier in his response wa s certainly unparliam entary in suggesting that anyone who raises a question about a matter -and the Premier may just disagree in tenns of the question , but to cast aspersions and suggest that any member of this House would support fraud, as indeed the Premier did in his final comment, is unacceptable and I believe that the First Minister should withdraw those comments . Hon. Jim Ernst (Gove rnment House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I clearly listened to the Premier's response , and I can tell you, he cast no aspersions on anyone in this House.

He ref erred to people who are abusing the welfare syst em, which he finds and our party finds unacce ptab le. Mr. Speaker: I do not believe there was a point of order , and I tell that to the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). I heard the rema rks of the honourable First Minister and, clearly, I do not believe the honourable First Minister attributed them to anybody , but what I will do, sir, I will take this matter under advisemenL I will peruse Hansard just for clarification. That will settle that one . Point of Order Mr. Jerry Storie (F1in Flon): Mr.

Speaker, on a point of older, unfortu nate ly, yesterday 's Hansard is not ava ilable, at which time I dire cted questions to the Minister of Rural Develo pment (Mr. Der kach). Had they been ava ilable , the record would show that the minister did not answer the questions yeste rday, and he did not answer the questions today. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. For sur e, the honourable member for F1in Flon does not have a point of order. The reason that Hansard is not available is because we have had so ma ny committees sitting at this time.

NONPOLnnCAL STATEMENTS Portage Collegiate Institute lOOth Graduation Ceremony Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie have lea ve to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Brian Pallister (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr. Speaker, last night I had the great privilege of attending the lOOth graduation ceremonies- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Just hold it for a minute . Point of Order Mr. Stev e Ashton (Opposition House Lea der): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I believe in the confusion starting the points of order, the member for Osborne (Ms. McConnick) had only placed two questions.

I would ask perhaps if there might be leave that she be allowed to place the final supp lementary. Mr. Speaker: Okay . We ll, I had clearly indicated at the time I had recog nized the honourable member for Osborne that the time had actual ly expired at that time, and I was giving her that opportunity to ask that question. I did do that . Now it appears that they are asking for leave to extend Question Period to allow the honourable member for Osborne to ask a question. Is there leave? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No, leav e is denied because Question Period is 40 min utes long. ••• Mr.

Speaker: Now, we already have leave for the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie , nonpolitical. Mr. Pallister: Thanks again, Mr. Speaker. Last evening, I had the privilege of attending the lO Oth graduation ceremony at the Portage Colleg iate Institute, my old school. At this graduation ceremony , there were 118 graduates. I

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4381 will not share with the House all 56 award winn ers, but I would like to tell you that there were four principal award winne rs, some of whom who will be known to members of this House . Certainly , Sean Rooke received a $24,000 scholarship to attend the DeVry Institute. I believe Sean will be pursuin g studies in Ca lgary.

Bjorn Christianson whos e mother Ro berta is the chairman of the Manitoba Arts Council and whose fa ther is Barney Christianson received nine awards including the Governor General 's Medal for the highest overall standing at the Portage Collegiate and a $22 ,000 schol arship for McMaster University. We are very proud of young Bjorn. Two other young gentlemen who served here as Pages last year both received four aw ards .

They were Jeff Peters, who received a University of Winni peg entrance schol arship and, as well, Trevor Rudge, whom some of the members of this House will remember, who received a University of Manitoba entrance scholarship . We are very proud of these young people , and it is indeed a privilege to mention their names and put their names on the record. As well, Portage Collegiate will be celebrating its centennial this coming week, July 7 to 9, and there are presently over 4,000 delegates registered. So we are quite excited in Portage 1a Prairie to be hosting the reunion of this fine school . Thank you.

Committee Changes Mr . Geo rge Dicke s (Point Do uglas): Mr. Speaker, during the meeting of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments on June 28, 1994, at 7 p.m., the following substitution was moved, by lea ve, with the understanding that the same substitution would be moved in the House: the honour able member for Ross mer e (Mr. Schellenberg) for the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). In order to ensure that the substitution is entered into the official record of the House, I would like to move , seconded by the member for The Pas (Mr.

Lathlin), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amend ments, as of the 7 p.m. meeting on June 28, 1994, be amended as follows : the member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg) for the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashto n). Motion agreed to. Negev Dinner Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Kildonan have le ave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave. [agreed] Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, together with the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), together with the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes), together with the member for Wellington (Ms.

Barre tt) and with the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), I had the pleasure of attending the 42nd Annual Negev Dinner that honoured and congratulated Morley Blankstein. I want to commend all of the organizers and participants from the Jewish National Fund and the organizers of this dinne r, Mr. Speaker. The theme of the dinner was From Holocaust to Hope and it was a rousing success, raising money for the Jewish National Fund.

In addition, it was a very moving occasion because one of the speakers in attendance had been one of the individu als on Schindler's List, and the entire 1,300 individuals in attendance were moved by his eloquent statements and his experie nce. The second speaker dealt with the hopes and the aspirations of the people of Israel and the Jewish population in general following the terrible tragedies of the late 1930s and 1940s. I am sure all members of the House join in congratulating with me the Jewish National Fund of Winni peg and the Negev organi zers for a wonderful and very moving evening. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. •

(1440) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITIEES (continued) Bon. Jim Ernst (G overnment House Lead er): Mr. Spea ker, I wonder if there is leave for reverting to the Presentation of Reports by Standing and Special Committees in order to allow the presentation of the rep otts of the Committee on

4382 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 Law Amendments which met last evening at 7 p.m., and the Committee on Private Bills which also met last evening at 7 p.m. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert to Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees to deal with the two committees that were sitting last evening? Leave ? [a greed] Standing Committee on Law Amendmen ts Mr. Jack Penner (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments): I beg to present the Second Report of the Committee on Law Amend ments. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the fo llowing as its Second Report. Your committee met on Tuesday, June 28, 1994, at 7 pm. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills ref erred. Your committee heard representation on bills as fo llows: Bill 17-The City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendmen ts Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Ville de Winnipeg et apportant des modifications corr�latives Nick Ternette -Private Citizen Jae Eadie -City of Winnipeg Councillor George Fraser -City ofWin nipeg Councillor Shirley Lord -Choices George Harris -Private Citizen John Prystanski -City of Winni peg Councillor Written Submissions Received: George Stewart-Winnipeg in the Nineties Bill 20, The Mun icipal Amendment Act,· Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les municipalitis Reeve Ron Renwick -Union of Manitoba Municipalities Your committee has considered: Bi11 16, The Provincial Court Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Cour provinciale Bill 20, The Mu nicipal Amendment Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur les municipaliti.s and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your committee has also consid ered: Bill 17 -The City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Ville de Winnipeg et apportant des modifications corr�latives and has agreed to report the same with the fo llowing amendments: MOTION: THAT the fo llowing be added after

Section 2 of the Bill: 2 J The fo llowing is added after

section 15 Quorum of committ ee 15(3) A by-law under subsection (2) may provide that an ex-off icio member of a committee may be counted fo r the pur pose of constituting a quorum. 2 .2( 1) Subsection 28( 3) is amended by striking out "fo ur". 2.2(2) Subsection 28(4) is amended by adding "including exercising the right of the mayor under subsection (2)" at the end. 2.2(3) Subsection 28(5) is amended by adding "including exercising the right of the mayor under subsection (2)" at the end. 23 Clause 29(1)(

c) is amend ed by striking out "f our". 2.4 Subsection 33(1) is amended by add ing "not more than" after "establish". MOTION: THAT the proposed subsection 89.2(4), as set out in subsection 6(3) of the Bill, be amended by striking out clauses (

a) and (

b) and add ing "made in writing and signed by not less than 250 electors" after "shall be". MOTION: THAT the proposed subsection 89.2(5), as set out in subsection 6(3) of the Bill, be struck out. MOTION: THAT Legislative Counsel be authorized to change all

section number s and int er nal

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4383 ref erences necessary to carry out the amendments adopted by this committee. Mr. Penner: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlp ine), that the report of the committee be now received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Private Bills Mr. Jack Reimer (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Private Bills): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report on the Committee on Private Bills . Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Private Bills presents the fo llowing as its First Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, June 28, 1994, at 7 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building to consider bills ref erred. Your committee has considered: Bill 206, The Coat of Arms, Emblems and the Manitoba TartanAmendm entAct; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les armoiries, les emblhnes et le tartan du Manitoba Bill 300,

An Act to amend

an Act to continue Brandon University Foundation; Loi modijiant Ia Loi prorogeant Ia Fondation de l' Universit� de Brandon Bill 301, The Misericordia Gen eral Hospital Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituant en corporation le "Misericordia General Hospital" Bil l 302, The Manitoba Historical Societ y Incorporation Act; Loi constituant Ia Soci�t� historique du Manitoba and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your committee recommends that the fe es paid with respect to the fo llowing Private Bills be refunded, less the cost of printing: Bill 300,

An Act to amend

an Act to continue Brandon University Foundat ion,· Loi modijiant Ia Loi prorogeant Ia Fondation de 1' Universit� de Brandon Bill 301, The Misericordia General Hospital Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituant en corporation le "Misericordia General Hospital" Bill 302, The Manitoba Historical Societ y Incorporation Act; Loi constituant Ia Societe historique du Manitoba. Mr. Reimer: I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau ), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY Bouse Business Bon.

Jim Ernst (Governm ent Bouse Leader): Mr. Speaker, there is agreement, I believe, amongst all members of the House to convene the House tomorrow at 10 a.m. and sit until 1 p.m, rather than our normal sitting hours for a Thursday. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to begin the sitting tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. and to conclude at 1 p.m. 7 [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would seek unanimous consent for consideration of Estimates today as foll ows: in the House, Department of Justice and the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Estimates.

In Committee Room 255, the Department of Urban Affa irs , followed by the Sustainable Development Fund, followed by the Civil Service Commission, followed by the Department of Highways, and followed by the Department of Health. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to alter the sequence of the departments to be considered in the Chamber? I believe we are going to do Justice in the Olamber, fol lowed by the AJI. Is there leave forthat'l [agreed] In the Committee Room 255 to deal with Urban Aff airs, Sustainable Development, I believe , Qvil Service, Highwa ys, Health, et cetera. Is there leave? [agreed] Mr.

Ernst: I move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findla y), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve itself into a committee

4384 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jest y with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Depart ments of Urban Affai rs, Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, Civil Ser vice Commission, Highways and Transp ortation; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Depanment of Justice and Aboriginal Justice Initia tives. •

(1450) COMMITT EE OF SUP PLY (CoDCOJTent Secti ons) URBAN AFFAIRS Mr. Deputy Chairperson (M arcel Laurendeau): Order , please . W ill the Committee of Supply please come to older. 'Ibis afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Urban Affairs. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item l. (b)(

l) on page 146 of the Estimates book. Item 1. Administration (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $171,000 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $43,700-pass. Item 2. Financial Assistance to the City of Winnip eg (

a) Unconditional Cunent Programs Grant $1 9,987,500. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I was going to ask the minister to give a detailed explanation on that item, but I will perhaps do it in writing. Mr. Dep uty Chairpers on: I thank the honourable member for that Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed. Item 2.(

b) Unconditional Transit Operating Grant $16 ,672,500 -pass; (

c) General Support Grant $8,090,400-pass; (

d) Dutch Elm Disease Control Program $700, 000--pass. Resolution 20.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $45 ,450, 400 for Urban Aff airs , Financial Assi stance to the City of Winnipe g, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1995. Item 3. Urban Affairs Program Support (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $517 ,200-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $222, 200-pass; (

c) Capital Region Sus tainable Strategy $75 ,000 -pass. Resolution 20 .3 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $8 14, 400 for Urban Affai rs, Urban Affairs Program Support, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1995. Item 4. Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg $1 6, 000,0 00-pass; (

b) Urban Initiatives $1,000,00--pass; (

c) Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Core Area Renewed Agree ment zero. Resolution 20.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $17 ,000,000 for Urban Affairs, Expenditures Related to Ca pital, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1995. Item 5. Lotteries Funded Programs (

a) Unconditional Grant to the City of Winnipe g $4,000,000-p ass. Resolution 20 .5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $4,000,000 for Urban Affairs , Lotteries Funded Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of Match, 1995. We will now move back to the Minister's Salary. Item l. (

a) Min ister's Salary $10,300- pass . Resolution 20 .1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $225,000 for Urban Affairs, Administra tion, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1995. This concludes the Department of Urban Affairs.

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4385 SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT INNOVATIONS FUND Mr. Deputy Cha irpers on (M arcel Laurendeau): We will now move on to the department of Susta inable Development, page 144. Item 1. Sustainable Development Innovations Fund. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Just on behalf of our critic, I want to indicate that some the issues that relate to this were raised in the Department of Environment, which had fairly extensive Estimates scrutiny .

There may be fmther questions in other fonns that will be asked in this sessi on, in other ways, but we are prepared to pass this item due to time co nstraints to move on to the remaining departments . Mr. Dep uty Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed. Resolution 32.1: RESOLVED that there be grante d to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4, 911 ,500 for Susta inable Development Innovations Fund for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day ofMarch, 1995. This conc ludes the department of Sustainable Development. CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION Mr.

Depu ty Chairperson (M arcel Laurendeau): We will now move on to the department of Civil Service Commission on page 21 of the Estimates book. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Yes, Mr. Deputy Chaiipers on, just by way of an exp lanation, this department was commenced the other night. The Libenll critic asked a number of questions and my intention was to make a short statement and ask a fe w brief questions. I believe the minister is en route . I would suggest we maybe recess until the minister gets here. Mr.

Dep uty Chairperson: Why do we not just talk it through. Mr. Ashton: I would suggest we recess for five minutes. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Recess for five minutes? [agreed] The committee recessed at 2:57p.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 2:59pm. Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Civil Se rvice Act): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I believe we already are well advanced into the Estimates of the department, and my critic, Ms. Gray of the Liberal Party, had completed a number of que stions, and we had adjourned in anticipation of the member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton}, who joined our committee from other duties, giving him a chance to peruse Hansard and return to ask a number of questions that may not have been dealt with. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, I would just like to make a brief statement. I appreciate the co-operation of committee members in terms of this schedul ing. I know we have had to do that quite a bit the last number of weeks for both ministers and opposition critics, and I cert airily apprecia te the fact that accommodation was made.

I just want to briefly mention a number of issues that are of continuing concern to us in the New Democratic Party in terms of the Civil Service Commission. First of all is the ongoing situation with the affirmative action side of the department. We have had an affirmative action policy and program in this province since the mid-198 0s certainly in the fonn of the agreement that was reached at that time with the MGEA. It was basically structured to over time bring grea ter equity into the hiring of the provincial government.

There has been some progress, and certainly I look forward to the continuing update s I have reque sted from the minister in tenn s of affirmative action and particularly following last year when concern was expressed, certainly by myself as critic and others, about the fact that given the downsizing, both the layoffs and the reduction in

4386 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 the number of employ ees, that we have seen some slippage in terms of the representation of target groups in the civil service. • (1 500) We certainly would app reciate any inf ormation, not only of the curre nt numbers, because I believe some of that may have been discussed the other night, but in terms of some of the concerns that were expressed about the process for hiring as well , because certainly we have done better, for examp le, in terms of aboriginal people than we have in terms of visible minorities traditionally the last number of years, and that is a concern that I want to place once again on the record.

I also want to express some concern too that with the general downsizing of departments that in the case of the Ovil Service Commission there is a reduction in terms of the Ovil Service staffing itself, and I am particularly concemed in terms of the provision of services to both departments and to emplo yee s. I think that the Ovil Service has been under a great deal of pressure, quite frankly, gene rally-I am not talking about the Civil Se rvice

section of the departme nt-the last number of ye ars because of the reduction in numbers and in some cases through the direct layoffs that did take place, although by and large what we have seen has basically been the result of reduction in numbers of employees in either early retirements or other employee adjust ment mechani sms. So I certainly want to place that concern on the record. There is a significant amount of pressure being placed on many peo ple , and it was intere sting today, I thought , that the government bas announced this 1-945-STOP number, targ eting welfare fraud because, Mr.

Deputy ChaiJperson, I think it should be pl aced clearly on the record that one of the worst, most horrendous situations of overload is in terms of Income Security, the governmen t's Income Security department. So I think it is absolutely bizarre that we now set up a phone line when the governm ent has seen fit, through its reduction in the number of civil servants in this province, not to deal with the horrendous welfare load that exists.

I have had repeated constituency concerns involving Income Sec urity, and I will publicly commend Bill Ghostkeeper, the director in Thomps on, who has been of tremendous assis tance in often straightening out situations of Income Security.

But I can tell you that staff are burdened to the degree that I think that the government, if it is serious about making sure there is no fraud, but also just as importantly, if not more importan tly, to make sure there is fair treatment of people on Income Sec urity generally, which includes providing the benefits that people are entitled to when they meet the criteria for welfare, that one place to start is by looking at the staffing side . I, by the way, do not believe that the phone line is app ropriate.

I believe that, I mean, what are we going to have next, a 1-945-STOP number for people who are abusing the Workforce 2000 program? Are we going to do the same in terms of other government programs and ini tiative s? Are we going to have a fraud line set up for someone who might go and fraudulently claim money from the Home Renovation Program 1 I think there are some questions that could be asked. But my concern, because this is the Ovil Service side, is in terms of the pre ssure that is there.

I want to also raise this concern and perhaps the minister can respond, as to whether the minister in being responsible for the Ovil Service Commission has, whether it be through his position in cabinet as another minister, whether it is through any internal committees, but more specifically as the Minister responsible for the Ovil Service Commission, I think looked at the fact that there are departments where clearly there are problems in terms of understaffin g, and I use the department of Income Security because-and Family Services by the way is very much in the same category-there are situations where people are dealing with caseloads that are absolutely impossible for anyone to deal with on a fair basis .

I would suggest, when we are dealing here with the whole question of Income Security and the government which has raised the issue of fraud, one way to ass ure that there is not fraud, and one way to assure that there is fairne ss for all people is

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4387 to have proper resources put in place . So I want to raise that because I think that is important. I want to deal also with the implications of Bill 22 and ask the minister in terms of the specific action he has taken as Minister responsible for the Qvil Service Commission with regard to Bill 22, because I have received numerous calls from civil servants over the past year in particular pointing to some of the difficulties it has provided in terms of serv ice. There are clear examples on the Justice side.

I have talked to people who have said that because of Bill 22 and the closure of courts on the Fridays, in some cases the RCMP have had to charter aircraft because of the closure. Also on the correction side, on the intake side, they have had to charter aircraft to move people from one community, move them down south just for questions of public safety. I am wondering if the minister has reviewed some of those concerns . There have been concerns put in place in terms of other essential services, and a lot of them, by the way, are coming from the Justice system. There is a very real concern in terms of that .

I am wondering if the minister can update the whole question of Bill 22 in reviewing the initial year in which-regardless of our position on Bill 22 and our party opposed it, I think the minister obviously is quite aware of that-but regardless of that, in terms of the implementation of Bill 22 whether any changes were made, and whether the Civil Service Commission played any role, the Minister responsible for the Civil Service, in ensuring that there was some greater flexibility in terms of its implementation, because I know there have been some initiatives that have improved the situation somewhat but there were significant prob lems.

I want to indicate also, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that I would still appreciate inf ormation. I do not believe I did get it following the Estimates last year, peihaps through an oversight, in terms of the number of employ ees, the breakdown of employees in this province currently in comparison to the number over the past 10 years.

One of the concerns we have expressed in terms of decentralization is the fact that while the government has talked about decentr alization, there have been some initiati ves, and we have supported decentralization initiati ves, in many communities there are actually fe wer civil servants today than there were when the government ann ounced this whole policy just prior to the 1990 election. I know in my own community where there have been some departments moved up. CEDF is relocated to Thompson. It had a small office previo usly; now it has relocated all its staff there which is very positive .

The Department of Energy and Mines has also done so with about eight or nine st aff. The bottom line, Mr. Deputy Chaiipe rson-and this is ironic, by the way. When the Department of Energy and Mines was originally coming to Thompson there was a discussion of the need for additional office space. By the time they came to Thompson there was no need because the provincial government had eliminated so many positions in the Provincial Building that there was empty space.

So I am looking again for a breakdown in terms of the number of employees over the past 10 years in different regions of the province, more specifically between Winnipeg and rural and northern areas. I think that is important, because when we are assessing decen tralization we have to have those figures available to us. There are a number of other issues that I will raise at another time in other forums , and I know the Liberal critic raised a number of issues as well which I was going to raise questions on. I wanted to put these comments on the record.

I would appreciate response on a couple of the items I mentioned either now, if the minister wishes to put some comments on the record, but I would certainly be willing, in terms of any detailed questions , if the minister could provide me with that inf ormation in writing whether it be in terms of Bill 22, whether it be in terms of affirmative action, which I know has been raised to a certain exte nt, or whether it be in terms of decen tralization. Mr. Pramik: Mr. Deputy Chaiipers on, first of all, with respect to the area of affirmative action, I can advise the member that we had a very long

4388 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 discussion about many of the issues that be raised in the earlier part of the discussion, and many of the answ ers he is seeking I think be will find in Hansard if he has not had a chance to peruse it. But the one thrust or question that I just reiterate, because I know it is of interest to him on how affirm ative action was aff ected by downsizing, I am advised that proportionately there was no effect on our numbers, and in fa ct in some areas they have gone up.

What all that means I am not quite sure, but our declared numbers have not changed in terms of their proportions with the downsizing. • (1510 ) With respect to pressures on emplo yees, and particularly Income Security, it may be interesting to note that my staff advised me that they are not aware of any overall reductions in Income Security offices. In fa ct, Income Security offices have been areas that have been one which have off ered redeployment opportunities as people have left, bringing people from other areas that positions have been eliminated and moving them into Income Security offices.

It has been one of the better areas for moving peop le. Now, I recognize fully that caseloads have incr ea sed over the la st number of years. Obviously, that does put some increased potential, but they have not been the subject of downsizing in tenns of those offices . One area in Income Security that the member raises that was brought to our attention last year was the closure on Fridays of Income Security offices, which tend to be their busiest days.

In keeping with the flexibility that we wanted in those are as, that problem was taken back to the department, and we have given a great deal of flexibility in ensuring that we meet essential needs. I believe at Christmas that was changed last year for the three days, and there will be a variation in those days this year in the program for the summ er and the Christmas periods so that we, again, provided the flexibility . The rules are not so rigid that they become sill y.

Just on that poi nt, the member raised some iss ues with Justice and RCMP, and I can tell him from my experience , I get those kinds of calls that he does, that often there are some legitimate cases that come fo rward where Bill 22 has caused some dif f iculties. When those are brought to our attention, we raise them with departments because we have, from cabinet level, said very clearly that we wa nt departments to develop plans for implementation of Bill 22 that make common sense, that are realistic, that minimize the impact on service delivery and provide employees with as most useful time as possib le.

So the departments themselves are the people that develop the plans to ensure that they make common sense. We found after last year's experience , particularly after last summer, that there were some problem areas, and we wolked with departments to address them , and made improvements in the Christmas closure . We have made some more refinements for this coming summ er that are in place.

I have to tell the member that from time to time Bill 22 becomes the excuse for issues that have nothing to do with Bill 22, and I say to him that I bad a call last summer, after the second Friday, from a Worlcers Compensation claimant He called my office, and he talked to one of my staff. He said: Please tell your minister, I am not stupid. I was not born yesterday. There has been a six-week or eight-week delay in my adjudication of my claim. The employee at the Comp Board who was dealing with him blamed it on the Film on Fridays, and I think this was only into the second Friday.

He said, they must sure do a lot of wolk on Fridays down there to be six or eight weeks behind, because they had lost two Fridays. Ultimately , we know that there is some impact on service , but there always will be people in human relations who use something else as an excuse for other probl ems. So one has to sort those out. But the gist of the member's comments is certainly valid. We should provide flexibility to ensur e that common sense prevails in the app lication of these days, and that is what we have tended to do.

I say to him that, as a northern MLA, where service in the North and service patterns may be somewhat di ff erent than other parts of the province , if there are particular areas of operation

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBL Y OF MANITOBA 4389 that come to his attenti on, we would be prepared to look at them . In fa ct, some of the changes that were made were the result of my inf ormation that came to me as an MLA or came to me as a minister. In checking with departments, we were not comfortable with the plans that they met, and we asked them to re view them again. They made changes, because they were not particularly interested in necessarily accommodating the best servi ce.

One area that we have offered again that was a problem last year was in the are a of licence renewal, and what we have done is, I believe , that the motor vehicle branch will be open at 1075 Portage on the Friday, the 29th of July, for renewals at the end of that particular month. We have also just, not as part of Bill 22, but in that particular ar ea, gone to a Saturday opening, generally on the last Saturday of the month , I belie ve, at one of our other locati ons, which is now advertised in St. James, so that we better accommodate.

We had some resistance within the department having a Saturday opening to accommodate customer service, but it has worlced out very, very well and, you know, through the worlc of the minister and his st aff, that is again another service improve ment.

Just one comment I make to the member on affinn ative action, and I know that he is probably aware of this and it does pose a problem , and I call upon him through his good offices and connections with the labour movement, but one of the ongoing thorns, I guess, in the side of affinn ative action for the moment has been the official position of the Manitoba Government Emplo yees' Union to only want affirm ative action at entry-level positions . I know there is a rule or a theory or a principle there that they have embraced very strongly.

What it has me ant is that the central aff irmative action committee , the union-management committee that we have had in gov�mment, that goes back I believe to the times his party was in power, has not been a really effective tool in affirm ative action because of the position of the MGEU. I recognize there is a conflict of two princip les, but at some point that has to be sorted out. I think just touching the areas that the member has raised, I hope I have given him some sense of where we are in those areas that he has raised . Mr. Ashton: I thank the minister for that respon se.

I would appreciate once again a response on the decentralization, the breakdown of emp loyee s. I realize the minister said last year it would be very difficult, but an atte mpt would be made to provide that informa tion. I will accept whatever response the minister can give me in writing on that. In the int erest once again in terms of time I am prepared to pass this part of the Estimat es. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: l. (

a) Executive Office

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $264,100 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $57 ,600-- pass. l. (

b) Administra tive Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $619, 800--pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $397 ,500-pass . l. (

c) Human Resource Management Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,242,900 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $689, 700-pass. l. (

d) Labour Relations Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $937 ,800-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $224,700-p ass. l. (

e) French Language Services Secretariat

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $168,000-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $21,800-p ass. l. (

f) Organization and Sta ff Development Agency

(1) Sa laries zero-( pass);

(2) Other Expenditures zero-( pass);

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations zero-(p ass). Resolution 17 .1: RESOLVED that there be grante d to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $4,623,900 for the Civil Service Commissi on for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day ofMarch, 1995. This concludes the Estimates of the Civil Service Commissi on. mGBW AYS AND TRANSPORTATION Mr. De put y Chai rpe rson (M arcel Laurendea u): We will now mo ve on to the Department of Highways and Transportation on page 95 of your Estimates book.

4390 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 We are on Resolution 15.5, item 5. Trans portation Policy and Research (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefi ts $766,600. •

(1520) Mr. Daryl Reid (T ranscona) : Mr. Deputy Chairpe rson, when we last met on the Estima tes, I had asked the minister questions pertaining to local aiiport control towers in the province that were potentially under threat at that time, the issue that I raised with the Thompson tower. I learned just toda y that the federal Minister of Transport is now talking about cutting funding to local airport operations throughout the country and, in particular, tower servic es. I am wondering if the minister has had any communication from the federal minister on this issue. (Mr.

Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairpers on, in the Olair) Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Acting Deputy Chair person, at this time I would like to introduce Joan Sunderland, manager of Management Support, who has joined us here this afternoon. The member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) is referring to what we have all seen in the press, which seems to be the way Mr. Young wants to communi cate with ministers and the citizens across the country.

He makes statements; we have no way of knowing whether they represent policy, decisions made or decisions intended, because at this point, as minister, I have received nothing in the way of a letter or anything official, nor has the department The department has been involved in discussions with Transport Canada staff around the issue.

We have written a letter as of June 2, I believe; I wrote a letter raising concerns about the aiip ort control tower at Thompson reganling, first, saf ety at the aiiport and, secondly, the potential of inte rfering with ec onomic development opportunities for Thompson and the North. There are three towers curre ntly in operation in Manitoba. Those are Wmn ipeg, St Andrews and Thompson.

Again, re ferring to the media commen tary or report, it looks like they are looking at towers with less than 60,000 airplane movements per year, and it looks like Thompson 's record is in the range of 34,000 to 37 ,000 movements per year . So if you are looking at the criteria he has set, and again I want to remind the member it is simply media comments that he has made, which he has consistently done, we have no verification that it is policy at this current time, that there was a decision by the fed eral cabinet or it is one that is immin ent .

It does raise concern to us, and we have certainly raised those concerns with the federal minister. I know the mayor of Thompson has raised those concerns , and the MLA for Thompson has written me, and I have expressed precisely to him what we have just talked about. Mr. Rei d: I thank the minist er forthat. We are still concerned that the fed eral minister is continui ng to make those comments as recently as today , and it causes us concern that he has not had the decency to even contact the provincial ministers of transport to make them aware of any items that he is contemplating at this time.

It would seem only fair that he would that. I want to switch for a minute and go to a consultant firm that was hired by the western provincial governments to look at the pending merger between CN and CP Rail. There was a meeting that was held in the province here, and the minister -! know we have raised this point in Question Period-through this f'mn has only included the shippers in the process of consultation. We had asked that the rail employees and members of the public at large be includ ed. Can the minister tell me how many people att ended the meetings? What was the cost of the contract for this compa ny?

Is it shared equally amongst the province s? When will they be reporting back to the minister? Mr .F indlay: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the member asked quite a few questions with regard to the consultant that has been hired by the three prairie provinces to prepare some understanding of the implications of the CN-CP merger.

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4391 The total contract is $65,000, which is being shared 50 percent by Alberta, 25 percent by Saskatchewan and 25 percent for the Province of Manitob a. That consultant will be consulti ng all groups which have interest in the topic, and we are expecting him to report at the Council of Ministers meeting next week in Calgary. The meeting that the member refers to here in Winnipe g, 37 people attended the meeting. Mr.

Rei d: Other than what this firm is undert aking, have any studies been done in the past to look at any impact that the change in the method of payment is going to have on transportation jobs, and in particular, rail transportation jobs in the provi nce? Mr. Findlay: With regard to the merger, if that is what the member is talking about, the MOP, we had what was called, when I was Minister of Agricult ure, a ministerial advisory committee, which held meetings across the province of Manitoba over a course of probably at least four years. It had civil servant membership from both Agriculture and Transportation.

I think there were three or maybe four studie�I think it was four studies were done , commissioned by the advisory council , which throughout its course was chaired by the dean of the Faculty of Agriculture in Manitoba. First it was Mr. McGinnis, and then when he retired as dean, Mr. Elliot was the chair. There was broad me mber ship on that committee, from agribusiness and farmers.

I think there were four farmer representati ves and four agribusiness representative s, and they held a large number of meetings across the province to get input on the various proposals that were coming from the fe deral government on the method of payment. At no time during the course of that discussion was there ever any reference to or analysis of the impact of the MOP being eliminated, which seems to be the mission that the fed eral government is on. If you can believe the comments of Mr.

Young over the past, oh, going back to the 3rd of June when he started in Thunder Bay, and we had the emergency debate here on the 9th, and there was some concern whether he really meant what he said. But Mr. Young has consistently made the same comments at speeches in Toronto, that as far as he is concerned, it can be eliminated. It shows very, very clearly his lack of understanding of the importance of that particular fed eral government program on the economy of western Canada. •

(1530) Mr. Rei d: The question was more targeted to not the elimination of the method of payment, because we know what that impact is going to have, not only on tbe railways but the producers, as well. At least, we can assume there is going to be a significant impact. My coDcem here is if we change the method of payment from pay-the-railways position to pay-the-producers position, the railways are now saying that there is going to be a significant impact on the employment levels within the railways.

I want to know what studies have been done within the province of Manitoba to determine what the impact is going to be on rail employment within this province if we move from an MOP of pay-the-railways to MOP of pay-the-producer. Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have already given the member an indication of a fair number of studies that were done , and as a follow-up to those studies we did in this province and what other provinces did and what the fe deral government did, the fe deral government appointed the producer-payment panel, which has gone through the analysis of the question the member is referring to.

To my knowledge, at this point in time, the fe deral Minister of Agriculture or the fed eral Minister of Transport has not released the final outcome of that produ cer-payment panel study, whose job it was to make a recommendation on what would happen with MOP change s. The member says, what would happen to railway jobs?

Well, I think the member is fairly well aware that a change in MOP will not change the amount of grain grown, and if grain continues to be hauled by railroad, there should be little or no impact on railroad jobs, because the MOP is in place to support the transport ation costs of moving grain from the Pmiries either to Thunder Bay or to

4392 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 Vancouver for export. If the same amount of grain is grown, the volwne on the railroads to be hauled will not change . The issue is not so much what will impact on the method of payment change . The issue is, if the payment is removed en tirely, what will the impact be, not only on the rail industry, but on the farm economy and the impact on rural communities across western Canada? I mean, it is a massive impact, and the fe deral Liberal government has taken a stance that is totally contrary to anything that had been discussed or analyzed in the past. (Mr.

Deputy Chairpers on in the Chair) There is no question that, if they fo llow through, there will be a drastic change in what we do, and there will be a very heavy call to change the way in which we handle grain and export it from this part of the Prairies, because if we are not nonviable today, we are very much nonviable after that happe ns. Mr. Rei d: The minister, then, should maybe look at the comments that have been made by the CEO of CP Rail and the CEO of CN Rail, wherein they talked about the impact of changes in the method of paym ent, which is pending.

I mean, these people are obviously knowledgeable about the railway industry and, I would expect, would have a significant number of people who could study this issue and who have determined that there is going to be some effect on railway jobs, and they think it is going to be some significant effect That is why I wanted to know about Manitoba, but I will not belabour that point. Can the minister tell me what assurances he has had from the federal minister for the volumes of grain to flow through Churchill for this year? Has he received any correspondence , any indication, from the federal minister? Mr.

Findlay: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the fe deral minister, neither of Agriculture nor of Transport , has given us any confirmation at this time of any volume mo vin g through. There has been speculation of certain volumes to certain locations, but not confirmed by either federal minister or the Wheat Board at this time. I might say that the specul ated amount is at least equal to last year's amount, but I cannot comment on it, because it is not official. It is just a speculated amount, and there is no confirmation of the sale or where it will be shipped through.

We are hopeful that the speculation is true, but, at this stage , no confirmation. Mr. Rei d: I have many more questions dealing with Transportation Policy and Research, but they are going to have to wait until we move through to concurre nce, which, I believe, will give us another op portunity to ask some of those questions. It will be dealing with the merger, the CN-CP merger, when I will be asking those questions .

I will have some questions regarding the VIA Rail operations, whether or not there has been any other meetings that the minister has had with his fed eral countetparts or VIA Rail to determine what changes are anticipated, since there were some documents that were leaked or released earlier this year, indicating that Manitoba is going to potentially lose some of its serv ice. We will be asking again at that time to see if there are any changes with respect to Churchill grain volwnes for this year.

I think it was 288,000 tonnes last year; that is not an adequate amount and will leave the port in a deficit position for the second su ccess ive year and will only be a further nail in its coffin, which is something I am sure, hopefull y, no member of this House would like to see . With that I am prepared to pass Transportation Policy. Mr. Dep uty Chairperson: Item 5. Transportation Policy and Research (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $766,600-p ass; (

b) Other Expenditures $336,800-p ass. Resolution 15.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,10 3,400 for Highways and Trans portation, Transportation Policy and Research, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1995. Now I move on to Resolution 15. 6, item 6. Driver and Vehicle Licensing (

a) Management

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4393 Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benef its $2,860,800. The honourable minister, did you want to introduce your staff present? Mr. Findlay: At this time, Mr. Dan Coyle has joined us. I am sure that both our critics know Mr. Coyle . Mr. Reid: I have no questions under Management Servic es, Mr. Deputy Chair. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed. 6.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures $2,546, 100-p ass. 6.(

b) Licensing

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,676,200. Mr. Reid: I am going to put some questions on the record, and once again I will attempt to raise these during the concurrence motion which hopefully the minister will have some answers for me at that time. The Photo Licensing Project, I would like to know, and it is my understanding that that has been comple ted in '92 and it is now a fait accompli . I want to know the revenue that is being generated from that program over and above the costs.

I would like to know the costs of the program for sustaining it in its ongoing basis; the number of vehicles that are reg istered in the categories; questio ns regarding the stagger ed vehicle registration program that we are about to enter and any impacts that it may see on the staff; whether or not the minister has any anticipation or any policy intention of moving towards a graduated licensing program or system that has been de veloped in other provi nces. With that I am prepared to pass that section. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 6.(

b) Licensing

(1) Salaries and Employee Be nefits $1 ,676,200 - pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1, 367,200--pass . 6.(

c) Safety

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,876, 200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1,2 53,800-pass. 6.(

d) Manitoba Public Insurance Cost-Sharing Agree ment $3,521, 400--pass. 6.(

e) Transport , Safety and Regulation

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1, 041,800. • (1 540) Mr. Reid: Again, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will raise these questions in concurre nce. I will just put them on the rec ord now for the minis ter 's information. I would like to know, since the province is now moving to the private vehicle inspection pr ogram, does the minister or the department keep any number of vehicles or have any estimation of the number of vehicles that will not be changing hands, that will not fall under the criteria established for the private vehicle inspection program? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passe d. 6.(e )

(2) Other Expenditures $457 ,700-pass. Resolution 15.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $19 ,601 ,200 for Highways and Transportation, Driver amd Vehicle Licensi ng, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1995. We thank Mr. Coyle for taking the time to come and join us today. We will now move on to Resolution 15. 7. Boa rds and Committees (

a) Motor Transport Boa rd

(1) Sala ries and Employee Benef its $321 ,500-pass. 7 .(a)

(2) Other Expenditures $14 8,500. Mr. Reid: Again, I will put questions on the recol'd for the minister's information. I am looking for, as I had last Estimates, inf ormation relating to the Motor Transport Boal'd's cost recovery. The Taxicab Boal'd is moving towards a position of full cost recovery , and I want to know if the Motor Transport Board is taking similar steps. I see the monies tbat were allotted, but I want to know what their other operations entail, regarding their costs and whether or not they have achieved full cost recovery. There wa s suppose d to have been an interprovincial report on Motor Transport Boards,

4394 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 29, 1994 and I can raise that issue with the minister in conc urre nce, and I am prepared to pass this. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass ? The item is accordingly passed. 7.(

b) Highway Traffic Board {1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $207 ,500- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $67, 700-pass . 7.(

c) Licence Suspension Appe al Boa rd and Medical Review Committee

(1) Salarie s and Employee Benefits $210, 600-p ass. 7 .( c X2) Other Expenditures $88,300. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, I hav e a couple of questions that might not necessarily be related to this line, but it is an important issue for me. If the minister is prepared to entertain the questi ons-he indicates yes. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Is there leave of the committee to allow the honourable member for Inkster to ask a question that is not relevant to this ? Lea ve ? No? Leave is not gran ted.

Leave is necessary for you to ask any questions that are not falling within the Licensing Board. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can I ask then which line we are currently on? Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: We are currently dealing with Licen ce Suspension Appeal Board and Medical Review Committee . Mr. Lamoureux: I will wait until we get to the Minister 's Salary. I could not deal with the taxicab industry at this point in time? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed. We are now de aling with 7.(

d) Taxicab Board

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $231,000. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, I wanted to ask the minister, last year we had a piece of legisla tion that passed. There were some negotiations between myself, the minister, and the New Democratic critic was brought in towards the tail end, and the member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau ), where we came up with what was believed a compromise in which we saw a commitment from the founer minister to set into process a structure that would allow for input from drivers , driver owners, other stakeholders within the industry before that particular bill would in fact be procla imed. Given the importance of that particular bill and the need for some changes, I am wondering if the minister can give some sort of indication what the curren t status is. In particular, is the government still considering the proclamation of that bill? Maybe he can comment in terms of some sort of an update. Mr.

Findlay: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on , I happe ned to sit in on some of the committee stage of the bill last year he is referring to and saw some of the input and the comments of people in the industry, so I can appre ciate the circumstances that existed at that time. Since the compromise that the member refers to where all three parties were involved along with the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurend eau), there was a committee struck of four people from the industr y to be able to communicate directly with the Taxicab Board. Mr.

Orle is now the chairman of the board, has been for some time now, and my understanding or my office 's understanding is that there is, dare I say, much better harmony in the industry. Things seem to be going respecta bly well, considerably better than they were at the time that bill was being discussed, and I guess I am quite pleased personally that there is some harmony in the industry, some better understanding. The Taxicab Board, I would like to commend them for the way they are conducting busine ss.

It seems to be creating that sense of understanding maybe that is out there in the industry, and until there is a recommendation from the board that it is time to proclaim that bill, we are not proceeding to that proclamation at this time . It is step by step, see if we can continue to have the success on an ongoing basis that we ap pear to have out there right now. I have to commend all the participants in the industry and the role that the board is playing to achieve that calm that we now have , or relative calm . Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Cha irperson, there was indication that this ad hoc committee that was being put together from the former minister would

June 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4395 also have some responsibility in tenns of looking at other aspects of the legislation that could have an impact. I am wondering if the minister can indicate whether, in tenns of both the short tenn or long tenn, what the governm ent 's intentions are. Are we going to see some additional changes to the legislation in which there were, as I say, specific concerns brought up? Is this group going to be able to develop, for lack of a better word, a blueprint or a white paper on what they believe is necessary in legislation? Mr.

Findlay: At this point we have not received anything, or there has not been any desire expr essed to us to do anything in the way of legisla tive change. I prefer to allow the relationship between the board and the industry to evolve and develop, and if they come forw ard with some recommendations that I have comfort with that they are broadly sup ported, we would be pr epared to act upon them. Nothing has come fo rward yet, and we will await recommendations from any component of the industry through the board to determine if there is any need in the near future or distant future for any changes. • (15 50) Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I am interrupting the pro ceedings of this

section of the Committee of Supp ly , because the total time allowed for Estimates consideration has now expired. Our Rule 64.1 (1) provides in part that not more than 240 hours shall be allowed for the considerations in Committee of the Whole of Ways and Means, and supply resolutions respecting all types of Estimates and of relevant Supply bills. Our Rule 64.1(3) provides that where the time limit has expired the Chairperson shall fo rthwith put all remaining questions necessary to dispose of the matter and such questions shall not be

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-58
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 58.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bd30952f2531a5efe8ea05455ad57760dcc684a2

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