ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Wa/ding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 28A - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 24 MAY, 1984. Prmted by the OfiJCe of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MA NITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, O.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HE MPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, O.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Ylc SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L. R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin -Russell St. Norbert Assini boia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA Thursday, 24 May, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERI AL STATEMENTS AN D TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I have another statement to make. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to inform this House that the Government of Manitoba has signed a Letter of Intent with Canamax Resources Inc. to undertake joint and separate feasibili ty studies into a potash mining and mill ing operation in Manitoba. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, the Letter of Intent was signed by Mr. John Hansuld, President, on behalf of Canamax and by myself, on behalf of the Government of Manitoba. Canamax has substantial reserves in the area just west of Binscarth and Russell. it is this area, Mr.

Speaker, which is the area of interest for the feasibility studies. The work undertaken to date by Canamax consists of eight test holes drilled to a depth of approximately 2,900 feet. The results from these test holes and from those drilled previously by other exploration groups indicate reserves of approxi.,;ately 440 mill ion metric tonnes, grading better than 25 percent K20. These reserves would yield approximately 64 mil lion metric tonnes of shipping grade product. Mr. Speaker, this ore grade is as good as, and in some cases better than, deposits in Saskatchewan.

Furthermore, this ore is of a higher grade than any deposit yet found in Manitoba. The highlights of the Letter of Intent, Mr. Speaker, are as follows: First, the feasibility studies undertaken both jointly and separately will include establishing projected capital and operating costs, assessing available and potential markets, and selecting the preferred technologies. Second, the parties will assess and evaluate suitable consort ium and other pote ntially satisfactory arrangements for allowing additional participation in project development and product marketing.

Third, the parties agree to maintain confidentiality of commercial and proprietary information. Fourth, study costs incurred by either party will form part of that party's contribution to any development in which it participates directly. Fifth, up on complet ion of the stud ies, the government will decide whether it wants to participate directly in the project and, if it does, to what extent. And, finally, the studies are to be completed by June 30, 1985. Mr. Speaker, I recognize that there is still a great deal of work to be done.

I am hopeful and I am optimistic that these stud ies will culmin ate in a mutually satisfactory arrangement to bring a potash mine into production in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, with the permission of the House, I would now like to table the Letter of Intent signed by the Government of Manitoba and Canamax Resources. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We, on this side, thank the Minister of Energy and Mines for the announcement that he has made today with respect to the Letter of Intent towards a possible development of a potash mine in western Manitoba.

I think that we can't help but be struck by a sense of deja vu as the Minister comes forward with the second announcement following on similar announcements that were made in 1981. Indeed, we're happy to see development taking place in this province with respect to the possi ble esta bl ishm ent and extension of our resources in Manitoba, development of our resources in Manitoba .

We might remind, of course, members of the public that this Mi nis ter and this government al lowed a previous Letter of Intent to lapse without continuing negotiations and discussions with the International Minerals and Chemical Corporation, and now of course are dealing with a new firm. Perhaps the new firm will be more to the liking of the government, and perhaps this will develop into something that will be worthwhile for the people of Manitoba. We were wondering when the Minis ter might come forward with this announcement as we were aware of the drilling that was being undertaken in western Manitoba.

Obviously he has been saving it for this occasion and we're glad that matters are coming to fruition. We recognize of course that this is a very preliminary announcement, that the Minster is just expressing a hopeful and optimistic expression about the future of potash in Manitoba. We hope that his hope and his optimism results in something current and something concrete for Manitobans in the future. We just have one further comment and that is, where is the grid? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Are the members prepard to proceed? 1140

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have for the information of honourable members the Ninth Annual Report of the Machine ry Institute of Western Canada, and the Annual Report of th e Manitoba Beef Commission. MR. SPEAKER: Notic es of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the galler y, where we have 50 students of Grade 11 standing from the Louis Aiel Collegia te under the di rection of Mr. Morassutti.

The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Mini ster of Health. There are 25 students of Grades 5 and 6 standing from the Shamrock School. They are under the direction of Mr. Driedger , and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Niakwa. There are 85 students of Grade 5 standing from the Stonewall School under the direction of Mrs. Antosh. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. There are eight adults and 26 students of Grade 6 standing from Grygla, Minnesota under the di rection of Mrs. Jelle.

On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Suppers - churches MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Environment. My question to the Minister is: how many new staff does his department plan to hire to help them carry out their mission to assist chu rches with planning their fowl suppers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of th e Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Spea ker, thank you.

If I were to consider the question serious, I might provide an answer; seeing I don't, I will simply say nothing. MR. B. RANSOM: I have your pamphlet ent itled "Church Dinn ers - Do lt Safely: Guidelines for Planning a Safe Church Din ner." lt says, "The Environmental Management Division will gladly provide a qualified staff member to offer your church guidance in planning, preparation and serving of the meal. Please cont act your local Public Health Inspector." Mr.

Speaker , this is put out by the Department of the Environment, that Min ister is the Department of the Environment, and I want to know how many staff they're going to hire to tell chu rches how to run their fowl supp ers. HON. G. LECUYER: lt just goes to prove, Mr. Speaker, that we are concerned about the environment and the safety and health of people. I think that it's well and good that people should carry on that concern for their safety and health, not only during the five working days, but they should carry it on even during their leisure time.

If we are concerned about food poisoning which has to do with the health of people even during chur ch banque ts, I think there is good reason for that, but, Mr. Speaker, that doesn't imply additional staff at all. lt simply means that should people have any concern in that regard, there is an emergenc y number within the department which can be used and referred to and called 24-hou rs-a-day, seven-days-a-week at all times. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the First Min ister. The members opposite may think that this is frivolous, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the First Mini ster.

In view of the fact that the institution of fowl suppers in the country is some thing that has been going on for decades, perhaps a century or more, without the help of government, does the First Min ister consider that in this day when the government is laying off staff and are cutting back in student employment and other areas that it is a priority for the government to be putting out this kind of information and beginning to inte rfere with chur ches in telling them how to prepare and serve food at a fowl supper? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H.

PAWL EY: I think we 've got a cle ar demonstra tion of jus t how shallow, in fact, the opposition's priorities are tod ay. We've had a very significant and important announ cement by the Min ister of Energy and we are now being graced by questions from the Member for Turtle Mountain dealing with brochures that were sent out by the department dealing with what is a serious matter per taining to food poisoning that can take place.

I must say that my experience is that, unlike the experience obviously of the Member of Turtle Mountain, most Manitobans appreciate receiving advice in respect to insuring that food poisoning does not take place at public events. I am surpris ed if honourable members are indicating that some way or other Manitobans would be offended, that honourable members would take this as a frivolous matter . My only surprise is, Mr. Speaker, that they would lead off the question period on this matter when we've had such an important annou ncement from the Mini ster of Energy and Min es. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the honourable mem bers opposite are not aware of the concern that is being caused by Regulation 204/83, and I would ask the Min ister of the Environment, who is responsible for this pamphl et that has been put out, and for this first step towards inter ference with the chur ches in the serving of their fowl suppers, whether or not Regulation 204/83 is going to be applied to churches in their practice of providing fowl suppers to their communities? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of the Environment. 1141

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will gladly review both the pamphlets and the regulation, Mr. Speaker. As far as I understand it implies no changes, no interference whatsoever. it's simply there to indicate that we are there to provide the assistance in case of need. But I will on the request of the Member for Turtle Mountain review both the regulation and the pamphlet. Day Care Centres MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Kirk field Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mini ster of Community Services.

The Manitoba Regulation 95/84 states that every licensee who operates a full-time day care centre shall provide a minimum of one room for children's activities with natural light acceptable to the health authority. How many day care centres will this effect that do not comply to this regulation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I'll be happy to take that question as notice. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How does the Min ister expect day care agencies in church basements to ever comply with this particular regulation? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I obviously can't give an answer for all the churches that are housing day cares but the ones that I've attended do have the type of window that permits some natural light to come in from the ground level. But, again, further detail on that, I'll take as notice. All-terrain vehicles MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Mini ster of Highways. I wonder if the Min ister could indicate to the House whether there's a policy in place regarding the total banning of all-terrain vehicles in all provincial parks. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'll take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Min ister. lt appears that there is a policy being established in this direction. I wondered if the Minister could indicate whether this would include residents in all provincial parks, how it will affect them. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I've indicated, Mr. Speaker, that I would take that subject as notice. I can indicate to the honour able memb ers that the department is currently working on regulations,

an act that would deal with all-terrain vehicles, but that has not been developed to the point where I have seen the various appropriations or parts of it. Once I've seen that, I would be in a position to comment on the components of it. At this time it has not been developed to that stage and there will be consultation. We haven't arrived at the kinds of regulations or requirements that would be placed in any act that would be introduced in the future. So I'm not in a position to comment on the act at this time.

I would say though in terms of any policy that the honourable member might be referring to, that I would check into that and provide him with an answer at another time. MR. A. DRIEDGER: A final question to the Minister. Is the Minister then indicating that there is no restrictions of all-terrain vehicles in provincial parks at this time? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, I've indicated that I would take that as notice and get back to the honourable member. Landfill sites MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Mini ster of - I was going to ask the Mini ster of Municipal Affairs- I'll ask the Minister of Environment. In view of his annou ncement yesterday that there was an order being placed upon some of the municipal jurisdictions in Manitoba forcing them to clean up some of the garbage dumps and the landfills, is the Minister prepared to reconsider his decision that he is not going to provide any assistance for those communities who may find it an extreme hardship and an additional expense to carry out the activities that he and his government are instructing him to do? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we are a caring government. We are always prepared to listen to such requests on the basis of dire need, but that is a primary responsibility of the municip alities involved. That does not preclude that should such a situation as the member describes arise that we would not listen to them at that time. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, I appreciate that, Mr. Speaker.

Just so that I'm clear I would, from the answer, take it that there is in fact or will be consideration given by the province to assist some of those jurisdictions that can demonstrate that they do need assistance. Is that correct? HON. G. LECUYER: I would like to put this on the record. First of all, the announcement that was made yesterday was in reference to a second phase of the study of the landfill sites in Manitoba. There is a third phase, and that was part of the announcement that was made yesterday as well.

We indicated in the announcement yesterday that there were a certain number of municipalities that found themselves in that 11 42

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 situation. With regard to the landfill in their area which presented certain problems, these problems are what we are going to be addressing as part of the third ph ase. Before we look into alterna tives such as relocating the landfill sites which might be options for one or two of the 14 municipalities where there were problems. Before we do so, we shall be working with them very closely and I have in no way indicated, Mr. Speaker, that we will entertain considerations in terms of assisting them.

I said that should they be in such difficulties in the short run that we would be prepared to sit with them and listen to their particular dilemma. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Speaker, I note in the annou ncement, in some of the situations that there was - and I ask him the question - is there a danger to human health in an immediate way in any of the situations that he has inspected and reported on?

If so, it could in fact cost a fair amount of money that hasn't been budgeted for by these jurisdictions and if there has to be an imm ediate clean-up in the case of danger to human health, then I would hope the Min ister would gi ve a little more serious considerat ion to supporting it. Is there any of those situations that human health is in danger because of contaminated water or other contaminants in their environment? HON. G.

LECUYER: As I indicated yesterday the three areas of greatest concern were Portage, Brandon and Virden, and in all three cases the staff of my department are working very closely with the municipal staff in order to do an ongoing daily monitoring. In fact, in most cases the problem is no greater today or will be no greater next week than it was yesterday or a week ago. In fact proba bly, if anything, because we've been studying these particular landfill sites, we have information on them now which has already enabled us to take certain corrective measures.

If greater problems develop, it will be down the road and that's what they'll be working at, is trying to devise alternative solutions. There is one particular area which presents perhaps greater urgency in terms of - there is need for an alternative landfill site at any rate and that's the Portage area because the current landfill site is probably used to its maximum degree. So that is one concern the municipality in that area would have had to address at any rate and they knew this for some time.

As far as the health problem that this might pose to the one family involved, they are aware of the problem, have been advised, and they are not currently using the well water which present health hazards. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister be prepared to relax some of the regulations and have his staff work with those jurisdictions that have to find new sites to accommodate that kind of a situation, because I think we're all aware today that a lot of municipalities are having an extremely difficult time in finding appropriate disposal places?

Will the Minister be prepared to accommodate the kind of changes that may take place? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, we will provide all the assistance, technical and support wise that we can possibly provide. As I indicated, that is part of the third phase of the study. In fact, yesterday the staff from my department have taken samples of all 35 wells; in fact, these are more wells that were involved in the actual study yesterd ay. We should have results of these samples within two weeks time. But I would like to take this opportunity to add, Mr.

Speaker, that if at one time, in Manitoba, we felt that landfill was the solution to all of our waste disposal substances, I think it's time and we are coming to realize that it's not the end-all solution. We used to think that to put the waste materials in the ground was the end of our problems. We are starting to find out perhaps that in many instances it is the beginning of our problems. In that sense, Mr.

Speaker, and I advise the members of the opposition likewise that in bringing legislation which will be coming up soon in the House in regard to the handling of dangerous waste or dangerous goods and the overall management of dangerous wastes in the long run is certainly a very important and serious issue and I hope we will be able to count on their co­ operation when it comes to address those issues. All-terrain vehicles MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to add ress a question to the Minister of Highways, and ask him whether he favours the wearing of helmets on th ree­ wheeled ATV vehicles. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Oral Questions is not for asking for an opinion; it is for asking for information. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I then ask the Min ister on the assumption that he does and that his department is preparing legislation for that purpose, I would like to know whether he would consider a public education campaign now, in advance of legislation, that would encourage people to wear helmets on these vehicles, and to also discourage children from driving them and operating them at high speeds. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The honourable member is making an assumption there.

I have not had an opportunity to review the statistics that apply to the use of all-terrain or three-wheelers particularly as one component of an All-Terrain Vehicle Act that we might include the matter of three-wheelers that I think the honourable member is referring to. As to whether the people that operate those - and there are a lot of younger children that operate them many times, of course, without helmets; probably almost all times without helmets - as to what the statistics are in regard to head injuries and so on. I haven't had that information supplied to me as yet. I would want to review that.

I would want to have that matter discussed with my colleagues before I would be in a position to bring anything forward with regard to the use of helmets. lt seems that the honourable member has formed an opinion that helmets should be compulsory on three- 1143

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 wheelers. I have not yet reached that stage and, therefore, I would not be able to supply any opinion on that at this time, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. DOERN: Is the Minis ter indicating that he does not have accurate statistics compiled in the past couple of years about the numbers of deaths and injuries suffered by young children and other operators of these vehicles? Is he telling us that he is only now putting that material together? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I did not ind icate that, Mr. Speaker, to the honourable member . I said that I have not had an opportunity to review thos e statistics.

I'm sure they are available, and I will be wanting to look at them at the same time that I am reviewing the various proposals that are put forward by staff with regard to which would make up

an act of this nature dealing with all-terrain vehicles. When I have had an opportunity to review those, I would be in a position to comment on them, Mr. Speaker. MR. SP EAKER: The Hon ourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minis ter of Urban Affairs. Would the Minister ind icate if the province is prepared to provide the city with additional fina ncial assistance to emb ark upon additional reconstruction of water main renewals, Mr.

Speak er, and particularly in li ght of the record unemployment statistics that were spoken about a few weeks ago in the construction industry? Would she be prepared to assist the city financi ally, and assist those people unem ployed in the construction industry? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minis ter of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I just happened to be reading the

article that the member is obviously referr ing to. There has been no request from the city for additional funding in this area. As he probably kno ws, there is an amount included in the budget that the city has and which, of course, is cost-shared by the government through grants to the city for that purpose. Now if an additional amount is requested by the city , we would take it under consideration. lt was done last year. lt was Jobs Fund mon ey. 1t did create employment in the heavy construction ind ustry.

There is work that is intended to go on this year and, as I said, if the city wishes to have an expansion of that, then I assume that they will come to us, ask for funding which would be shared and we would take it under consideration. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minis ter for that response. In view of the obvious discussion that is taking place in the city at the present tim e, perhaps she could initiate on her own some discussion at the provincial level. MR. SPEA KER: Ques tion. CNR - East Yard development MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, on another question for the Minis ter of Urban Affairs, last week she an noun ced , along with the Federal Go vernment representative, the fact that a 10-acre parcel of land had been dona ted by the CNR with respect to the East Yard Development. Could the Mi nister advise whether or not the CNR has rejected transfers of any further property for the purpo ses of parks in the East Yard site, whether they have rejected any further transfers and whether the concept of a total park in that area is now lost forever? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, without creating the assumption that the whole idea would be a park - I don't believe that has ever been a consideration - the CN has certainly not rejected further consultation about the remainder of the land behind the station which, I think, is what the member is ref erring to, behind the main line. Certainly the agreement that was signed refers, in fact, to continuing consultation about the development and use of that area, so that was a part of the agreement.

The main portion of the agreement was the ARC property which is about 10.8 acres, which will be developed as soon as the archeological digs have been completed now to ascertain what actually is under the ground in the area. Access will be created, and there will be a park along the riverfront.

What actually is determined for the use of the land between that park and the main line and how that main line is handled is the su bject of further discussions, but we certainly are embarking upon those and will continue to do so as we believe the whole Forks area - and everyone, the CN, the Federal Government, ourselves believe that the whole Forks area is a place that deserves redevelopment and the becom ing of a real asset to the people of Winni peg and Manitoba. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, could the Minister indic ate whether there is provision for public access to the 13-acre site, and when the Visitors Interpretive Centre will be constructed, and whether or not there has been an agreement with the Federal Government with respect to an extention of the agreement which, as I under stand it, would expire next year unless there is some agreement between the Federal and Provincial Governments to extend the agreement and continue the funding past that date? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I have to perhaps jok ingly congratulate the member for putting about four questions into th at one.

Tha t was very good - (I nterjection) - three? Okay, I'll only answer three. First of all, the Interpretive Centre, which is to be on the park site that we're talking about, the 10-acres plus of the park site, will be built probably next summer . The actual construction will be next sum mer, because the land, of course, has to be prepared this summer. The access to the area will be near the Provencher Bridge.

Hopefully , there will be a walking access from the Main Street area, so that we will actually have access from both sides but for cars, you know, from the one side a wider access when thos e buildings are demolished. We belie ve that demolition can get under way almost immedia tely. Those arrangements are nearly complete. 1144

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 So we can get on with that so that the site will look better to start with. The archeological dig will begin almost immed iately . Once the site has been clarified with regard to mapping and so on, then the actual location for the int erpretive centre will be determined and construction can be gin. We 're lo oking for a fullfledged park site completed two years from now. I think that that's appropria te, given what has to be done with the site. As far as - I guess I'll have to ask the member for the third question again. MR. G. MERCIER: The extension of the agreement. HON. M.B.

DOLIN: The extension of the ARC Agreement. Ye s, the ARC Agreement is drawing to a close. That is in a sense a separate issue because there are a number of ARC projects, as the member knows, that are under way and not all of them have been comple ted cer tainly. We are looking at an extension of the agreement. We haven't fin alized that in any way yet, but we wanted to certainly make sure that this particular location, this cornerstone really , of the ARC development was agreed to and the money allocated before this agreement does lapse if in fact it does. Co-operative Implements - equity MR.

SP EAKER : The Honour able Min ister of Co­ operative Deve lopment. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Last Thursd ay, the Member for Swan River and the Member for La Verendrye asked me a number of questions regarding Co-op Impl ements and an equity write down which I took as notice and would now like to provide the answer to those questions. The first question: was there an equity write down that occurred this year?

I can ind icate that in fact there was an equity write down that occurred as a result of an annual meeting which was conducted In February of this year and that the members were correct in their assumptions there. They asked me as to what advice the department had provided in respect to that write down.

I can only ind icate to the members opposite that the department was involved in the discussions, however , it is a decision tha t was made by an independent co-operative at a duly authoriz ed and constituted annual meeting where the majority of the vote, as a matter of fact, a major portion of the vote was in favour of the write down. We as a department have to support the independent decision-making process of such co-operatives and will do so. it's a decision for them to make and they have made it.

They finally asked me as to a membership drive and whether or not $1 million which had been pledged by the Co-op Implements as a membership drive was proce eding? I can ind icate that it is proceeding.

I can't give you an exact figure as to how much has been raised, except to tell you that a significant portion of the $1 mill ion has been rais ed, and it's my understanding that Co-op Imp lements will in fact be accelerating their fund raising efforts over the next little while in order to accomplish the raising of $1 million which was their goal as part of the refi na ncing arrangement which was made several years ago. Lotteries MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, to make sure that my answer to a question from the Honourable Member from La Verendrye yesterday doesn't mislead anyone, I'd like to add and clarify an answer that I gave yesterd ay. You recall, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member asked me if someone who had lost his licence because he had chosen to break the agreement and sell the federal Sports Pool, if they decided to go back if they wanted , requested to go back to selling for the provincial products, would they be reinstated?

I stated at the time that we would probably look at that favourably, but I want to add to this that the 6/49, the computers dealing with 6/49, there's quite a shortage of them so far in Western Canada, and of course there's no guar antee that they would get the 6/49 back. They would be put on the list probab ly, but there's no gu arantee that they would automatically get it back. Potash - royalty structure MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Mini ster of Energy and Mines.

Following upon his announ cement today, can the Min ister advise the Hous e whether or not he contempla tes introducing any changes into the royalty structure as it would affect potash? MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Min es. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, certainly not at this particular Session of the Legislature. If changes are deemed to be advisable, we certainly would be prepared to bring them in next Session. The feas ibility study will not be undertaken until June of 1985, so we would have sufficient time if changes were required.

I'm not saying that changes are required, but if through the course of the study and through work done by the department we determine that it would be advisable to bring about some changes, we certainly would be prepared to do that next Session. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, does this mean that the government and Canamax will be together working out what would be a satisfactory royalty structure? HON. W. PARA SIUK: Mr.

Speaker , that's for the government to deter mine what the satisfactory royalty structure would be, and we will in fact bring that forward because we are having discussions as you know with another potash compa ny. We are talking about - and this is the difference between now and 1980, and I would hope that the opposition members would have been a bit happier about it - two mine sites, and I think that's phenomenal for Manitoba and we should be very happy with that. We do have the potential of two mine sites with two mining companies and we in fact were discussing royalties with both of them, Mr. Speaker. 1145

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 We are waiting for Saskatchewan to make their announcement with respect to royalties. That is required by the end of June, Mr. Speaker. We'll look at what their royalties are, we'll determine whether in fact ours are competitive and we will in fact assess it at that time, and if the government makes the decision that some changes would be required we certainly would bring that in at next Session. MR. B. RANSON: Mr.

Speaker, we're pleased to note that there are two possible mine sites. lt may have escaped the Minister that in his own announcement it points out that this lease that Canamax took out was taken out in 1980 under the Lyon Government. Mr. Speaker, who is doing the studies for the Provincial Government, who is doing the studies on behalf of the province? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, in response to the

preamble of the third or the second supplementary of the Member for Turtle Mountain, it should be pointed out for the historical record that the lease was granted in 1980. Three holes were dug at that time, and in 1983 five more were drilled. The results from those five drillings in 1983 proved out this mine. I wouldn't want to stretch it by saying that there must have been some good business climate in Manitoba in 1983 to have the company undertake five additional drills. Mr. Speaker, we're not into that. All we're into is looking at the future, we're not trying to knock anything.

We're not trying to be knockers, we're trying to be doers, Mr. Speaker. We are quite pleased that there is the potential for two mines, and I think that's wonderful. The studies are being done by reputable people in the business who have done studies with respect to proving out the mine and I wouldn't want to divulge that publicly at this particular stage apart from saying that they are reputable consultants. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Energy and Mines telling us that he can't even tell the people of Manitoba who is doing the studies on behalf of the province?

I'm not asking for the results of the study, I realize that there might be confidential information. I'm simply asking who is doing it on behalf of the province? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, that information will be provided in due course, and it's never been held. Mr. Speaker, isn't it amazing ... SOME HONOU RABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. W. PARASIUK: . . . here we are, we're talking about a mine, and they're trying to find every particular angle to knit pick and be knockers and be negative. Mr.

Speaker, in view of this annou ncement, which I think has major significance, imagine the Member for Turtle Mountain spending almost three-quarters or nine­ tenths of question period trying to drum up this question. Having blown his first question on fowl suppers, Mr. Speaker, drumming up this question on who's doing the study and then trying to make an issue of who's doing the study. Mr. Speaker, the study is being done by very reputable companies, very reputable companies and I certainly would like to have the process of informing them that I will be making their name public in due course.

That's why we do these things, Mr. Speaker, is to have a good set of business relationships with the private sector, and to extend some courtesies with respect to communication with the private sector, courtesies which a group that does their negotiations on the back of an envelope wouldn't understand. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, during the period that the Lyon Government was negotiating with International Mineral, the members opposite insisted that the whole negotiation take place in public.

We're not asking for the details of the negotiation, we simply want to know who it is that's doing the study on behalf of the province. If the Minister isn't going to tell us that, can he tell us whether or not the person or persons or firm is going to do this study on behalf of Manitobans has been hired? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, there will be a number of studies involved, and one of the firms has been engaged, I don't know if the contract has been finally signed.

I do know that there were discussions with a particular company that is very reputable in the whole area of potash mine analysis, and when that is concluded and when they are informed of our intention to make their name public, that would be done in due course. That is the normal way in which business transactions are conduc ted. And I would hope that the opposition would be constructive in that approach, Mr. Speaker. I think that what we're hoping, Mr. Speaker, is to have constructive negotiations, and when the member on the other side says that I made that particular request, he is completely wrong.

If he checks through Hansard, going back to 1980, he will find that there is a very profound difference, a very minor difference of course being that we aren't running $600,000 worth of ads with respect to annou ncements and then having the Premier represent the political party in power, having that type of, I think, Machiavellian manipulation of the media and public advertising. There's a big difference on this side between what we do now, Mr. Speaker, in the middle of a term, and what they did during their term in office with respect to the public paying for advertising at the wrong time.

Superior Coach Manufa cturing - Morris MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address my question to one of the three Min isters respon sible for economic matters. I'm wondering which ministry is responsible for answering questions regarding the general activities of Superior Coach Manufacturing Co. Ltd. in Morris. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Culture. 1146

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 HON. E. KOSTYRA: I would be pleased to attempt to answer any questions with regard to activities of my department with respect to Superior Bus. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad to hear that because management there wasn't quite sure which ministry to approach. Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Min ister whether or not it's a fact that under new ownership and management for the first time in many years that that particular operation has been able to manufacture three buses a day and that productivity has increased to a point where it now takes 10 6 hours to produce a bus, versus 228 as recently as a year ago? Is this a fact and is his department aware of that? - (I nterjection) - lt's not an opinion. MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. I'm not sur e that partic ular company is wit hin the adminis trativ e competence of the government. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C.

MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister then, has any department senior people within his branch visited the operation over the past number of months so as to listen to the very real concerns of the management of that company regarding specifically bonding and the shortage of operating capital? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take the details of that question as notice to determine if there has been, within the last short while, any visits from representatives of my department to the site in Morris.

I know that there has been ongoing discussions for many mo nths regard ing Supe rior Bus and in response to part of the

preamble to the previous statement of the member, the principals there have had no trouble knowing who to contact in the government because there have been numerous contacts, numerous discussions in respect to all the people that are involved with Superior over the past number of months ever since that operation closed and reopened. I'll take as notice the question in regard to the specific context and provide an answer as soon as possible. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if there's an inclination to . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Member for Niakwa. Does the honour able member have leave? (Agreed) MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would just like to explain the flowering plant on everybody's desk today. Without getting into great detail, it is a tomato plant and it is of the strain Fantastic and it's called a Fantastic tomato plant. I am a lover of tomatoes and I want the members of the Legislature to share with me in enjoying the fruit of the tomato plants which were brought by myself and distributed by the staff here today, Sir.

I would also suggest that when the fruit of the tomato plant becomes ripe later on in the season that there will be a contest for the best-grown tomatoes and a grand prize will be awarded. I would suggest that this is a challenge to all members of the Chamber to see that they grow the tomato plant and I will let them know the rules and the prize at a later date. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I think I would be remiss on this side if I didn't thank the Honourable Member for Ni akwa for that very kind gesture, particularly the last few comments of co-operative desire, that we all enjoy the tomatoes. I had thought probably the honourable member was looking forward to the occasion when the tomatoes would have ripened and we would have a tomato-throwing contest in this Chamber. So I'm somewhat relieved by the friendly comments from the Member for Niakwa. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask if there would be an inclination to grant leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today. If so, I would move that Mr. Speaker do now leave the ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker ... HON. L. DESJARDINS: Excuse me, we'd go to committee immediately and stay till 5:30. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commi ttee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, and by leave dispense with Private Mem bers' Hour. Seconded by the Minister of Labour.

The Labour Estimates would be in the committee room and the Agriculture in the Cham ber. MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Su ppl y to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture, and the Honourable Member for Bu rrows in the Chair for the Department of Labour. CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - LABOUR MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Comm ittee, please come to order. 11 47 This

section of the Comm ittee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Labour. We shall begin with the opening statement from the Honourable Minister responsible for the department. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I am pleased to welcome everyone to the review of Manitoba Labour's Spending Estimates for 1984-85. I am sure we will have a meaningful discussion of our proposed programs for the new fiscal year.

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 As you are aware, some sign ificant changes have taken place in the department over the past year. A major change occurr ed with the go vernment reorganization in November of 1983, which resulted in the transfer of the Employment Services Division from Labour to the newly- created Department of Employment Services and Economic Security . Because of the significant size of the Employment Services Division, it was also necessary to split off some administrative and support staff from the Admin istration Division and from the Research and Planning Branch to the new department.

The past year also saw the Advis ory Council on the Status of Women incr ease in size from six members to thir teen members including the Chairperson. This increase has allowed a broader representation on the council with new members bringing new skills and experience to assist the council in the objective of achieving equality of opportunity and treatment for women and men in the province.

The Women's Bu reau also has been recently reorganiz ed and renamed the "Women 's Directorate." The directorate and the council will soon share mutua lly beneficial resources and be located adjacent to one another for ease of access and support to the Manitoba Government on Status of Women issues, also to the women of Manitoba. There have been some structural changes to the reporting relationships within the department as well. The department now operates with the Labour and Admin istration Divisions and the Research and Planning Branch reporting to the Deputy Mini ster.

A Director of Communi cations reports to the Deputy Minister as well. The Labour Division has been reorgan ized to include the former Industrial Relations Division and is now comprised of seven branche s. The Advi sory Council on the Status of Women and the Women's Directorate continue to report directly to me. As well, the affirmative action co-ordinator for the government is attached to my office.

Ma jor thrusts for the department are aimed at creating a climate within the province that will foster industrial harmony and promote fair and equitable labour relations, with a view to improving the economy and the quality of life for Manitobans. We will ther efore be presenting amendments to The Labour Relations Act which have arisen from Phase I of the Manitoba Labour Law Review and the related consultations with the business and labour communities. We will also endeavour to ensure that the impact and the benefits of technological change are fairly shared by Manitobans.

The second stage of the labour law review will, in part, add ress the que stion of worker protection and participation related to technological change. In order to promote progre ssive indus trial relations in this province, particularly when the economy will be faced with rapid technological changes and structural adjustment, the department is com mitted to encouraging the participation of workers in the planning of change in the workplace.

As a step in furthering this objective, the department is working with labour and management in Crown corporations to establish worker involvement on the boards of directors and throughout the organization. My department will also continue to work with our federal and provincial counterparts to build upon the lead that we have taken during the last Session with our amendments to The Pension Benefits Act. Ongoing consultations are being held with a view to standardizing legislation dealing with employer-sponsored private pension plans across Canada.

We will also continue di scussions with the provinces and the Federal Gover nment towards imp roving the funding and benefits under the Canada Pension Plan. Another of our major objectives involves ongoing consultation with indus try concerning the Payment of Wages Fund, and our desire to develop new approaches which will impr ove the protection of employee wages in the cases of bankru ptcies and receiversh ips. My department is also continuing a high priority for internal planning process.

Longer-range planning has improved our ability to eff ectively manage our scarce resources towards providing the greatest benefits possible to Manitobans. Our planning process involves a broad-ba sed participation with the involvement of all staff members throughout the department. Recent Manitoba labour statistics have revealed some positive results. In 19 83, ther e were eigh t work stoppages involving 512 workers and accounting for 12,310 lost work days.

The work stoppages which occurred In Manitoba in 19 83 accounted for the lowest number of work days lost, and involv ed the lowest number of emplo yees of any year during the period 19 70-83. At only 31 days lost per 1, 000 non-agricultural workers, Manitoba had the thi rd-lowest work stoppage record of any province during the first 11 months of 1983. The year 19 84 is expected to be a relatively heavy one in terms of collective bargaining activity however. An estimated 600 to 700 collective agreements will be negotiated this year.

In order that we may accomplish our goals, Manitoba Labour Is requesting 229 staff years for 19 84-85 which represents a reduction of two from last year. Our 1984- 85 expenditure request is $9,229,200.00. This is a 4.4- percent spending decrease from that budge ted for 1983-84. The decrease reveals internal reprlorizations that have streamlined our operations, and made our programs more cost-efficient. Mr.

Chairperson, I have presented to this commit tee a brief overview of the major changes that have taken place over the past year , and I believe also highlighted the major program initiatives that we will be emphasizing in the coming year. I am confident that members present will have many questions relating to the budget detail of each branch, and I would request that these questions be raised by sub-appropriation as we proceed through our printed Estimates. Mr. Chairperson, I refer Manitoba Labour's 19 84-85 Spending Estimates to the committee for review and passage. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

In accordance with the past customary usage in this Commit tee of Sup ply, the Chairperson now calls upon the leading opposition critic to make his reply if he so decides. The Honourable Member for La Vere ndrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The members of the opposition look forward to dealing with these Estim ates, realizing, Mr. Chairman, 1148

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 that the Minister does �eally have preciously little left in her department from where it started off. I think, if my memory serves me right, a number of years ago the department was re sponsible for The Safety and He alth Act; it was res ponsible for Immigration; it was responsible for Unemplo yment Services; it was responsible for a number of other things and now we've really got a situation where I guess she is left, more or less, with the leftovers that were not divided off among other departments. I guess I should elaborate on that statement.

That isn't a reflection on staff. it's a reflection on the administrative responsibility that she is left with - I'll clarify that. Mr . Chairman, as the Minis ter menti oned , her depar tment's major thrust is to deal with labour harmony in the province and that is precisely, I guess, the thing that the opposition is concerned about in dealing with these Estimates and dealing with the direction that this government and this Min ister have been taking and have embarked on over the last little while. Mr.

Chairman, the White Paper, which is now before the business and labour commun ity, really wants to bring into effect some pretty radical changes to the labour legislation, some pretty substantive changes. Mr.

Chairman, we, in the opposition and I guess people in the business community and people in the labour community really can't understand why, in light of the statistics that she just brought forward here, we've had one of the best years, as far as only having three work stoppages she mentioned; we've got the lowest number of work days lost in the last 13 years, and she is now wanting to tamper with the legislation. Of course, Mr.

Chairman, that will become the biggest issue, because if the legislation is presented in the form that the White Paper has taken - because when one reads the White Paper, it almost sounds like the explanatory notes for the introduction of a bill - if those recommendations in the White Paper are adopted, I suggest to the Minister not only will she have a real fight on her hands and the government have a real fight on their hands in the Legislature, but the people out there in the work force and the small entrepreneurs who make up the bulk of the people of Manitoba, the bulk of employers of Manitoba, will really take this government to task for tampering, at a time when the labour relations in this province seem to be running fairly smoothly, as she pointed out using her figures here before.

So while we will deal with the Estimates on a line­ by-line basis and we'll be asking questions, the main concern, of course, of everybody involved is what is going to happen to the White Paper and what the final outcome and what the final legislation will look like. Mr. Chairman, I also have to comment, a number of years ago when we announced a few staff cutbacks, as she announced today - granted there's only two being cut back, but a cutback is a cutback - and when we made any annou ncements of either one or two or three staff cutbacks, there was a loud hue and cry.

We now have an NDP Government who, when in opposition, protested long and loud that a cutback in staff really meant a reduction in services to the people of Manitoba. She has now said that it's just going to be more efficient, and really there won't be any change in the delivery to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, that is really the rationale that we used when we were government. lt wasn't the view shared by members opposite. Funny after two years or two-and-a-half years, how one suddenly sees that 190-degr ee turn made, and suddenly you can rationalize something which you were totally against before.

So I point that out, Mr. Chairman, because I think that to be parliamentary about it is sort of an anomaly in the approach that they took when they were in opposition. Mr. Chairman, I would at this time ask, since the proposed labour legislation will be the big initiative from this department this year, under which appropriation that would be properly dealt with. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we begin questioning, the Chair wants to invite the members of the departmental staff to kindly take their respective places. Madam Min ister. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I can answer the question.

I believe the most appropriate place to discuss that would be in the first

section where we discuss - the staff is trying to tell me something. I better check and see what he said - Executive Section, where we discuss Marva Smith's appropriation if you will, the appropriation for Labour Law Review. MR. CHAIRMAN: We therefore have to begin by deferring the consideration of Item No. 1. (

a) relating to the Minister's Salary. We shall immediately proceed to consider Item 1. (b )( 1) Exec utive Sup port: Salaries, and 1. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures, an item wide enough to cover some general areas of concern - the Memb er for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister announced in her opening remarks that there was a reduction of staff in this department, yet we see a fairly large increase in the Salaries in Executive Support. So while you have the troops out there being reduced, the Executive Support seems to be being beefed-up. I wonder if she could tell us what that increase represents. HON. M.B. DOLIN: There is an increase in this area, a minor increase in staff years, simply to even it out to 11.

There was 10 .44 staff years last year, so there are eight weeks there. I just offer that first as a detail so that we understand what we're dealing with. We have in this section, besides those persons that you are aware are in the Admin istrative

Section or the Executive Sup port

Section - the special assistant, the executive assistant, the admin istrative secretary. Also the affirmative action co-ordinator is included in that Executive Support

Section so that is a person and a salary there. Then in the Deputy Minister's portion of it, we have the inclusion of the director of communications and the consultant to the Labour Law Review. There are some people there, some expenditures there that would not have been in last year's Estimates, although they were approved. The affirmative action co-ordinator and the consultant on Labour Law Review are new this year, but there was a new person hired during the year, 1149

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 approved last year, as the communications officer. So there's an expansion, in a sense, in that area but that's how it's divided. MR. R. BAN MAN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could tell us whether the director of communic ations was included last year, what his or her salary is, and what has been set aside for Ms. Smith? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Yes, the commun ications officer's position was included last year. That person was on staff as of January this year, was hired at the end of last year to begin work in January. I'll have the exact salary in just a moment.

The communic ations officer's salary is $38,544 per annum. I believe your other question was Ms. Smith's salary, is that correct? That was the top of the range I must have just quoted, is that corr ect? Yes, sor ry. Mr . Balagus' salary is $33,200.00. I just gave him a raise that's why he's looking so happy back there. Ms. Smith's salary, what we are requesting for the coming year is $51 ,700.00. lt was in the $40,000 range this past year. MR. R. BANMAN: Is the Minister saying that that is a full-time position? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Which one? MR. R. BANMAN: Ms. Smith. HON. M.B. DOLIN: lt is a two-year term position.

MR. R. BANMAN: Does she work full-time at this job? HON. M.B. DOLIN: If you are considering 40 hours a week full-time, she works probably double that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, would this be the

section which would contain grants or what

section would contain grants? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There are grants in another

section and ther e are also gr ants inclu ded under the Apprenticeship Section, so there are two places where we have grants. We don't offer very many. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate whether there are included in the Budget, any grants to any labour organizations or employer organizations? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Excuse me, I wonder if the member could clarify whether he's talking about new grants. MR. G. MERCIER: Any grants to labour organization or emp loyer organ izations. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Yes, they come up later, and I think the member is familiar with them. MR. G. MERCIER: Okay, we'll deal with it then.

HON. M.B. DOLIN: Appropriation 2.(j), I understand, is where they will be discussed - sub-appropriation 2.(j). MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendyre. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, last week the Minister announced that she had hired a number of outside consultants, or that the province had hired a number of outside consultants, at $600-a-day to help her write the new labour legislation. Where would we find the appropriation for that? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: lt would be found in this appropriation. lt was a consultant's fee. lt was not a hiring of people, I remember, on a full-time basis, but it is a consultant's fee that was paid to certain persons - to clarify - to help with the drafting of the legislation which is slightly different than saying, the writing of the legislation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, after I asked the Mini ster certain questions with respect to the hiring of the three lawyers that the Minister referred to in question period, and I had asked her whether or not she had consulted with Mr.

Tallin, whose office is responsible for drafting legislation, he indicated in a news report that his office had not been contacted with respect to their possibly drafting this labour legislation. Can the Mini ster explain why Mr. Tallin, as Legislative Counsel, was not approached to see whether or not his office could handle the work of drafting this proposed legislation? HON. M.B. DOLIN: In answer to that question as I answered before, I believe that my proper access to Mr. Tallin is through the Attorney-General. That would be where I would expect any questions would come.

So I can't speak for what was said to Mr. Tallin or what Mr. Tallin heard or what conversations took place in that department. I do know that the drafting of labour legislation requires a certain knowledge of the area. lt is quite possible that there were persons who do legislative drafting, who would not be familiar with that, or who were busy on other draft acts. I don't know, I don't kn ow what their assignments are and I'm not responsible for their assignments so I can't tell you how busy they were.

I do know that it was agreed upon by Cabinet, by Treasury Board, that the assistance was needed over the short haul in an intense way and that the best possible thing to do was to get people who were familiar with labour legislation to help with the drafting, and that was done. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Tallin is regarded across Canada as the best legislative draftsman in Canada, so, Mr. Chairman, any suggestion that he doesn't have knowledge of this area or any other area is totally inaccurate and I think it's irresponsible of the Minister and her department not to appr oach Mr.

Tall in first I would ask the Minister, who hired these outside lawyers? Did her department hire . . . HON. M.B. DOLIN: They were hir ed through my department I just said, the money is in this area, that's why we're discussing it under this area. 11 50

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 Mr. Tallin was not assigned to this and I have to tell you that I don't know who makes his assignments. I assume it's the Attorney-General. I make assignments to my staff. I do not direct Mr. Tallin's activities. Eugene Szach is the chief drafter from that particular group who has been assigned to the labour law draft. That assignment was made by that department. Mr.

Tallin certainly has worked on labour legislation and I don't belie ve in my remarks there was any suggestion that he was not familiar with it, but there are other people working in that department who may not have been available, who may not have had the expertise to work in this area, and that's why I said I did not know whether there was that availability. I assume there was not since the Attorney-General and the other people in that department, who were working with it, indic ated that there was not the availability of other people to work on it.

There is some support staff, as I understand it, that is helping with it, that have been reassigned, if you will, to the labour legislation to assist in the word processing and so on. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, who recommended the hiring of these particular individuals? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The people who are involved in the drafting; who are Eugene Szach and Marva Smith. If you want the actual recommendation of the thr ee people, there were a number of names put forward, many are unavailable. These people were available of the several people across the countr y who have knowledge in this area. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, what is the total amount of money set aside to pay these lawyers? HON. M.B. DOLIN: David Shrom, $3,000 plus expenses to a maximum of $500; James Dorse y, $6,000 plus expenses to a maximum of $3,000; Bob Mitchell, $6,000 plus expenses to a maximum of $3,000.00. Unlike what the newspaper report said, it's not David Shaw, I don't know a David Shaw, it's David Shrom. Support services were absorbed within the department and withi n Legislative Council. MR. CH AIRMAN: 1.(b) (1) - the Memb er for La Ver endr)'e. MR. R. BA NMAN: Mr.

Chai rman, the Min ister mentioned in the House the other day that, and I guess this flows from some statements she made a while ago with regards to the release of the White Paper, it was in response to an interim report, she said, that Ms. Smith had done. Is she now able to release that report? HON. M.B. DOLIN: For the third time, Mr. Chairman, we will not release the report until it is complete. MR. R. BA NMAN: Mr .

Chairman, there is a new precedent being established here and I just want to caution the Minis ter that when she is sett ing up a study or a commission and is asking for public representation and this individual is holding public hearings and receiving public submissions, the public has a right to know what that particular individual is recommending to the government. I would say to the Minis ter that if she is going to bring forward legislation based on that report and based on some of the results that Ms.

Smith received from the community at large, she has an obligation to that community to present that report. it's up to her , I guess, in the final analysis whether or not she wants to table it or not, but it's kind of ironic from a government who is putting forward and talking about freedom of information and public access to information, that here we have an individual who did receive submissions from the publ ic, did hold public hearings and now the report is not being made available.

I say to the Minis ter that I would seriously ask her to re think her position, and before any legislation is tabled in this Hous e, that she bring that report forward so that the people that are inv olved in it, both labour and management, have a chance to see exactly what kind of information is being provided to her. Let me ask a further question: when does Ms. Smith's term expire, and when does she expect to have the final copy of her report? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Answering the questions in reverse order; Ms. Smith was hired for a two-year term.

The first half, as we know and as I have explained, is to be phase one; the second half, phase two, legislation brought in in two parts, logically divided, I believe. I would expect that the report would be complete immediately prior to the government's consideration of

Part 11, phase two. I would expect that it would be made public some time after the government decided exactly what they were going to propose as legislation with regard to emplo yment standards and its related acts. That decision will be taken by Cabinet at that time. I can't give you any more information than that, but I would expect that certainly it would be comple ted so that we could addr ess ou rselves to the recommendations for phase two sometime just before the next session or the spring session, let's say, of next year when we would be expecting to bring in the legislation as was phase one this year.

I might add that with regard to the ins istence upon the tabling of the report, I have explained repeatedly that we did not act upon all the recommendations and in fact, in the White Paper, indi cated one very large area of recommendations that we decided to hold over for consideration during the next year. That Is one of the main reasons that it is inappropr iate to table that report now, because we have not determined what we are going to do with the recommenda tions; which ones we are going to act on, which ones we are going to inco rporate into other areas and so on.

They are still under consideration by Cabinet and Caucus. They will remain so until we prepare suggested legislation for the next rou nd , for phase two. lt would no t be inappro priate, I've never known a government to table an incomplete report. lt's not done, as far as I kno w. You can table a draft if you will, but this is not a draft. lt is a report that is under consideration and it is in fact the first half of a two-part report.

When it is complete then we will table it. lt is also interesting to note that while this is the same question that the Member from La Ve rendrye has asked repeatedly , I did not hear such a question even 1151

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 once from any of the emplo yee or emp loyer representatives with whom I have consulted on an almost daily basis over the last several weeks. They knew that, and they had requested the discussion paper, that's what we talked about, that's what we used, and they certainly were satisfied with the discussion on that basis. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister has just told us that

Part I of the report is completed and that the legislation which is going to be introduced has been dealt with to a certain extent with that

Part I of that report. She says the report now is coming down in two phases. Now she says that some of the suggestions in

Part I the government isn't acting on. This is precisely what we are after. We want to know the type of information that was gather ed pu blicly and disseminated, and then put into a report by Ms. Smith so that we know what this government's up to the next time. You're talking about a two-part series here. We want to know what you're about to inflict on the people of Manitoba, and what you're contemplating on inflicting on the people of Manitoba so that they have a chance to come back and tell you where you're going wrong. That's what public information is all about.

When you're asking for public information there comes a time when some of it's got to come back. As I mentioned before, and I'm going to repeat myself, for a party who has consistently wanted freedom of information and provide mor e information, Mr . Chairman, I appreciate that she wasn't here the last term when her colleagues, the Minister of Finance, and the now Minister of Resources, sat and demanded every document on negotiations that was going on.

But for her now to sit back and having had a public hearing with regard to this report and now saying to the people of Manitoba, and the people involved - no you can't have a copy of that report - is in direct contradiction of what they did when they were in the opposition. I say to the Minister that she should really rethink that and talk to a few of her colleagues because

Part I is done, the people of Manitoba have the right to have that in their hands. And I for one, and I know my colleagues will keep on asking the questions because until the report is released we really don't know what the government has spent some $50,000-plus on to come up with the recommendations for the new labour laws. So I put that forward. I wonder if she could give me the dates when Ms. Smith started her term. She says it's on a two-year­ term basis and she started, I believe, last year. HON. M.B.

DOLIN: She began on a part-time basis while completing responsibilities at the Un iversity of Manitoba, let's see, from Ma y 30th. The term employment began May 30th of 1984, I'm sorry'83. April and May were worked on a part-time basis, and full-time employment began May 30th. MR. R. BANMAN: Does that mean that the contract expires April 30th,'85? HON. M.B. DOLIN: lt's term employment and it would expire, yes, at that time. MR. G. MECIER: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister issued a press release dated April 27th, 1984 in which she stated that the proposals, referring to the White Paper, come following the completion of the first phase of the Manitoba Labour Law Review. Mr. Chairman, I'm recollecting instances in the past where governments have hired individuals to hold enquiries and public hearings into specific matters. I recall within my own responsibilities undertaking studies under the operation of The Liquor Control Act, the Michener Report, into lotteries by Graeme Haig, into assessment by Waiter Weir. In every one of those situations, Mr.

Chairman, public hearings having been completed, the individual retained prepared a report, it went to the Minister and it was made public. Just because someone you hire makes a report doesn't mean that the government, whichever government it is, will agree with every recommendation contained in the report. But it's incumbent, it's the absolute responsibility, Mr. Chairman, of a Minister and a government in those situations where public hearings are held.

The public is asked to contribute, and they have, and a report has been made to the Minister, and it's incumbent upon the Minister to table that report and make it public. Mr . Chairman, this situation goes even further because the government is going to in troduce legislation, the Minister says, before making the report public. That is irresponsible, Mr. Chairman. lt's arrogant, it's contemptuous of the people who've gone to the time and trouble and expense of appearing at those public hearings and making their contributions. And it's totally unfair, Mr.

Chairman, to the members of the opposition who are going to be asked to deal with this piece of legislation without having the benefit of this report which is being done at public expense and ought to be tabled. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the Minister in view of the fact that she says in her own Press release that the first phase of the labour law review is being completed, in view of her indications that she's going to bring in legislation, will she reconsider her position and table this report as it should be done? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I don't know how many times I can say what I have said but I will try again.

The report has been su bmi tted. lt was the decision of the government to prepare legislation based on a part of that report and to hold over a portion of the report to be dealt with next year. At that time we will have the balance of the information that we feel needs to be gathered with regard to that particular portion, and perhaps some other portions, so that we can then make public the report with the additional information gathered in Phase 11 and we will also bring in the second part of the legislation.

The second part of the legislation deals, as I said, with the employment standards portion and its related acts, the first part, as you know, with the Labour Relations Act and its related acts. The compendium of what was presented at the public hearings was made public soon after those public hearings and every single person, and every single group that appeared in the public hearings received a copy of that. Unfortunately some misunderstood and thought that the compendium was the recommendations even though there was clear conflict from some of the parties 115 2

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 prese nting requests to the labour law review within the compendium. They were absolute opposite so it couldn't pos sibl y be a re commendation but it was misunder stood to be that. But to clear the record let me say again that the compendium was exactly that. it was a compiling or a compilation of all of the sug ges tions and re commendations heard from individuals and groups during the public hearings. That was circulated widely . The Member for La Verendrye says that they want the report because they want to know what the government is going to inflict on the people of Manitoba.

Well, what the government is proposing to the people of Manitoba and what the government is consu lting about with those particular cons tituent groups, management and labour, but what will affect their working rela tionship is in the discussion paper and is under discussion and has been consulted about, and I believe a great degree of consensus has been reached. So I'm not sure why the members are flogging this to this extent. They perhaps have not talked to some of the people whom they appear to be trying to defend - I don't know who they are. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, will the Minister defer presenting legislation to the Legislature until after the report is made public? HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, in view of the statistics presented by the Minis ter with respect to the low number of work stoppages in 1983 In Manitoba and the low number of workers affected by strikes and the comparative rating of Manitoba to other provinces, could she explain what the need is for any changes? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: Wel l, to first of all indi cate just how numb ers can change within a few moments, I said there were eight work stoppages and in the response to my remarks, it was reduced to three, would that it were so, but it's still eight. That is a low num ber. I also ind icated that there are between 500 and 600 contracts to be renegotiated in the coming year. A lot of these people were on two-year contracts or in the midst of contracts.

The low num ber can be attributed partly to that. lt can be attributed partly to economic conditions. lt can be attribut ed to the fact that if you use a bit of an analogy, a work stoppage is like an all­ out war, but that doesn't mean that the battles are over and that the battles have seized and those battles go on.

We believe that there are better ways of solving them and we have worked with reco mmendations from both management and labour to look at alternati ves for avoiding the kind of confrontation that - even when it is over - creates a disunity in the workplace that certainly doesn't improve productivity , that certainly doesn't improve any harmonious relationship. The member is ref erring to only a small part of what is presented in the legislation.

I believe that if he would take a look at the White Paper again, the discussion paper , he would see that the majority of it deals with the Labour Board itself, deals with arbitration and deals with issues other than strikes and lockouts per se. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, when does the Min ister intend to introduce the legislation into the House? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Soon. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, when does the Minister intend to introduce the legislation in the House? MR. CHAIRMAN: The question has been answered. HON. M.B. DOLIN: If I could remind the member who was the critic last year. MR. G.

MERCIER: If she wants to be a smart aleck, she'll be here a long time. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I am not trying to be a smart aleck. The member might recall that last year we had a date in which we intended to introduce the pension bill, Bill 95. That pension bill broke down due to technological change. lt got lost in a broken word processor at the Queen's Print er. That certainly threw off our dates for introduction of the bill and it came in much later than we would have wanted and mu ch later than we expected.

I can't tell the member the date on which the bill will be introd uced. lt will be introduced as soon as possible. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to be blaming the Minis ter for anything that is unfor eseen in preparation of the legislation. I know it is difficult to sometimes accurately predict an exact date and I'm not asking for an exact date, but will it be ready in two weeks or in six or eight weeks? HON. M.B. DOLIN: lt is my understanding that we all hoped we wouldn't be here in six or eight weeks, so I would suspect that you're closer with your guess of two or three weeks. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, does the Mini ster intend to refer the legislation or White Paper proposals to the Labour-Management Review Committee for consideration? HON. M.B. DOLIN: They have been refe rred to the Labour Management Review Committee and in fact that committe e was involv ed in assisting in the preparation of recommendations for th ree specific areas, which were referred to last August, a long time ago, and they have been involved and were involved in the initial meetings when the discussion paper was distributed. the very first meetings.

Certainly their mem bers have been in volved through their own organizations in responding to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you. I wonder if the Min ister could inform us whether the th ree people hired from the outside have completed their contractual commitments? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Not quite, it's my unders tanding. lt was a stagger ed sort of attachment, if you will, they 1153

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 came when they could, they had outside commitments themselves, so it's not quite finished. There is one person who is still involved. MR. R. BANMAN: Two of the people that were on contract have finished and the other one's got a day or two left, is that what the Minister is saying? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I would have to get the specifics for you. That is my understanding that it's about that, it's just the receipt of some final information that needs to be clarified on the part of one person who is doing one part of the work, that's all. Two of them have completed their work is my understanding.

MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, if the people were finished drafting, for all intents and purposes, the legislation is then drafted? HON. M.B. DOLIN: lt is drafted as far as the sections with which these people were giving some assistance. I have not seen a draft. That's an ongoing process. I have seen some portions of it. There are still some areas where changes are still being considered by caucus and those decisions will be made over the next week or so and the final draft should be finished in a couple of weeks. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) -p ass. 1. (b)(2) - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we've got about a 40 percent increase in here. I wonder if the Minister could tell us what the increase is about? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Sorry, my pages are num bered a little differently and it took me a moment to find it. The explanation for the changes is that the request reflects the provision of the $25,000 to the Labour Law Review for 19 84-85 and an allocation of approxima tely $35,000 for a Departmental Communications Program. lt also reflects the increased costs of travel and the use of government vehicles, which you will recall was divided between departments. MR. R.

BANMAN: What was the $35,000 again? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Communications. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I want to raise a question and think this might be an appropriate area, Research and Planning. MR. CHAIRMAN: We haven't called it yet. MR. G. MERCIER: Oh, you're not there yet, okay. HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, almost. MR. CHAIRMAN: If we pass 1. (b)( 1) , 1. (b)(2), I'm going to call that one. 1. (b)( 1)-p ass; 1. (b)(2)- pass; Executive Support: Salaries, Other Expenditures- pass. 1. (c)( 1) Research and Planning: Salaries; 1. (c)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I want to raise something that has concerned me in recent weeks. lt may even be naive, but this summer it would appear that there will be some 16 ,000 to 17 ,000 young people unemployed. I know a number of young people who have been fortunate enough to obtain jobs in areas where they are paid $1 1, $1 2, $13, $1 4-an-hour because of the unions' classification rates.

Most of them in a moment of honesty would admit that they are probably being overpaid. lt seems to me, particularly in the area of municipalities - I would ask the Minister this - is it possible for her through her office to undertake some discussions with those unions affected and employers affected to make it possible, if they have to waive portions of the collective agreement, so that more students could be employed but at lower than the rigid union rates? You know, any of those 16 ,000, 17 ,000 unemp loyed young people would be glad to work for $5 or $6-an-hour.

I appreciate on the one hand you would want to make sure that the employer, say, a municipality like the City of Winnipeg would perhaps undertake more work with that additional manpower. But it seems to me to be basically a common-sense approach to a very difficult problem of unemployment among youth. I'm wondering if the Minister has ever considered that type of approach, perhaps even in this year hold ing discussions with the City of Winnip eg to see if it was possible to employ more students at lower wage rates so it wouldn't cost the employer any more, the city any more.

They could get more work done, and they have work to do through the summer months of various kinds. I wonder if the Minister would agree with that concept and be prepared to have her department enter into some discussions with some unions and employers. 1154 HON. M.B. DOLIN: I have to say that I understand the intent of the question. I'm not sure I understand the question itself, or its appropria teness at this point. First of all, I am no longer responsible for Employment Services.

That doesn 't mean that I am going to skirt the issue of the intent of the question as I understand it, which is employing more people at minimum wage and fewer people at a liveable wage. I could probably expound at great length about the need to determine whether a student was supporting a family, or whether a student was supporting themselves, or whether a student had to pay all their expenses, or whether their parents were helping them with their expenses. I don't think that is appropriate at this point.

If a student is filling a job that has a certain wage rate attached to it, just because we define that person as one who is also taking classes during a certain portion of the year, I don't think it is appropriate to cut their salaries. With regard to the discussions with the City of Winnip eg, that's not appropriate here either. I don't think we should enter into that discussion. As I say, I have given my response to what I believe to be the intent of the question. There is no way that anyone could convince me that minimum wage is a liveable

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 wage or one on which you can support a family. So I would not wish to become involved in promo ting that more people work at minimum wage. I would like to see more people get jobs, of course, but it's the creation of the jobs at a liveable wage that we are looking at. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm not talking about forcing young people to work at the minimum wage. I am talking about 16 ,000 or 17, 000 unempl oyed young people living in Manitoba this summer, probably of whom 99 percent are not married, Mr. Chairman.

Surely to God , it is better that they have some form of employment than none which would a ppear to be the Minister's response to the idea. 1 am not suggesting that I have covered or solved all of the problems in this situation that I am referring to, but I am suggesting that there may be in this concept a common- sense approach to employing more young people and providing some more jobs for those 16 ,000 or 17 ,000 who will be unemploy ed this summer. I am not trying to suggest they work at minimum wage, or force someone with a family to do this type of thing, but surely a job is better than no job at all.

To have that number of young people unemployed is a crisis for many of them, Mr. Chairman. Surely the Minister of Labour should be prepared to look at . almost any type of proposal. I offer it in a constructive way in the hopes that perhaps ther e might be a method of employing more of those 16,000 or 17 ,000 young people who will be unemplo yed this summer. HON. M.B. DOLIN: In final response, I believe, because I think the Chair is going to soon rule us both out of order ... MR. G. MERCIER: As the Min ister of Labour, surely you can talk about unemployment. HON. M.B.

DOLIN: Yes, it is the Minister of Labour. lt's not the Minister of Employment Services. Under Employment Services when I was Min ister, we had two programs that employed thousands of young people that offered employment through the business and farm and non-pr ofit agency groups and communities to young people specifically aimed at them. They were not for the most part highly-paid jobs. They were designed to fill a student's summer and help them with the partial financial assistance that they needed.

They were certainly not expected to be a full support for a student who had a family or had other responsibilities, and that family doesn't necessarily mean a wife or a child. lt could be a dependent parent. lt could be anything, any other expenses that we're not aware of. But those programs were put in place specifically for the purpose that the member is speaking about. They are still in place. In fact, many of the people hired under them, under the MEAP Program in particular, are still employed. They became permanent emplo yees.

In fact, just last evening I was talking to an insurance agent who was late with his applic ation under Care erstart, had interviewed a person that he was proposing that he hire under it, and he decided to hire her and pay the whole shot himself because he thought she would be such a good employee. So there is a spinoff benefit that I'm sure isn't isolated to just that one case. So that is the kind of program that I think the member is talking about. I am in full support of that. I don't see where he is aiming his suggestion with regard to the Research and Planning Depart ment of the Department of Labour.

He started out by saying that we should maybe talk the unions down or talk the unions into waiving their contracts. I don't believe that is an appropria te place for the Research and Planning Department to be doing their work. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I guess what we have just witnessed here is the problem of the splitting up of the departments. Whatever the Minister of Labour does with labour legislation, with minimum wage, with whatever, it affects employment in this province. You can't have one without the other. So, Mr.

Chairman, you cannot operate this department in a vacuum from the unemployment people or from the Employment Services people. So, Mr . Chairman, what this department does does have a bearing on employment. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the suggestion by the Member for St. Norbert was a common-sense one. All he is trying to do is make a common-sense constructive suggestion to the Min ister that she might look into it, for after all, the government determines on Careerstart that you are only allowed to pay your person $4-an­ hour. lt determines that. HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, that's not true. I'm sorry.

On a point of order, that is not correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: The correction's been made. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, the government determined in the STEP student program that they were going to reduce the number of weeks that were provided to the people that were working. They determined that. They cut back on a bunch of students from 16 weeks to 14 weeks. That arbitrarily cut off some of their paychecks. So, Mr. Chairman, I'll ... MR. CHAIRMAN: This has been discussed in another department. MR. R. BAN MAN: Mr.

Chairman, all we're trying to say is that the government determines to a large extent what happens with the unemployment rate, with the job creation rate. An integral part of that is the Department of Labour, and all that happened here is that out of the goodne ss of his heart the Member for St. Norbert offered the Minister a suggestion. If she doesn't want to take it, so be it. 11 55 MR. CH AIRMAN: Okay, 1. (c)

(1) Research and Planning-p ass. 1. (c)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Again we have about a 25-percent increase. I wonder what the increase is due to. HON. M.B. DOLIN: The increase of about $1 5,000, $1 6,000 is to request additional funds to assist in the developing and the implementing of a management information system for this department. it's essential

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 in the Department of Research and Plannin g that they have some computer capability. That is what we're reque sting. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(2)-pass. 1. (d) ( 1) Fin ancial and Admin istrative Services: Salaries, 1. (d)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Honourable Mini ster. HON. M.B. DOLIN: If I could make a remark first, this is the area that is responsible for providing the essential financial personnel and admi nistrative support services to the department. In the adjusted vote, there were 20. 16 staff years. For 1984-85, we're requesting 19. 16 , a reduction of one staff year. The staff year which has been eliminated was a vacant management and financial analyst position which, in the context of repriorization of resources, was felt un necessary to retain particularly as it was vacant and had been. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Any questions on this item? 1. (d)( 1)­ pass; 1. (d)(2)-pass. Item No. 2.(a)( 1) Labour , Division Administration: Salaries, 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Honourable Min ister. HON. M.B. DOLIN: This is the Divisional Adminis tration appropriation that provides for the operation of the office of the Assistant Deputy Min ister of labour who is responsible for the management of the Labour Division. In the adjusted vote, 1983-84, there were five staff years, and we are requesting the same for this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any questions on this item - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: You're requesting the same number of staff years? HON. M.B. OOLIN: That's correct. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, what was the total budget for the department last year? Was it 17 million? HON. M.B. DOLIN: If I may ask a question, for the entire Department of Labour, Manitoba labour? MR. G. MERCIER: Ye s. HON. M.B. DOLIN: $1 7,635,400.00. Then with the removal of the Employment Services Division, we have an 19 83-84 adjusted vote of $9,658,400.00. Page 10 6 details that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)

(1) Division Administration: Salaries-pass; 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. 2.(b)( 1) Mechanical and Engi nee ring: Salaries, 2.(b)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for La Veren drye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess one of the areas that has affected a lot of the rural people and has caused a lot of con troversy is the one dealing with the electrical requirements as well as insulation requirements for mobile homes. Has the Min ister in the last year or so had any review on the regulations governing those homes? HON. M.B. DOLIN: We are using the code that we have been using. lt isn't under review at this time. it's Canadian Standards. · MR. R.

BANMAN: Are there some outstanding issues with some mobile home manu facturers or salespeople with regard to the Department of Labour? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I und erstand there is one sales firm that was involved through the courts with the Attor ney­ General's office, but other than that the manufacturers and the other groups are all meeting the standard. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)( 1) -p ass; 2.( b)(2)-pass. 2.(c)( 1) Fire Preven tion: Salaries, 2.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures, 2.(c)(3)(a) - the Member for la Ve rendyre. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just want to spend a few min utes on here, maybe more from the standpoint of having been involved years ago before I got involv ed in this business as a voluntary fireman, and appreciating maybe to a large extent like many people who have been involved with the volunteer firefighters the amount of time and dedication that goes into the running of a volunteer fire department. Proba bly, Mr.

Chairman, if we were to start in any small way providing some remuneration for the people that spend their time in these volunteer departments, whether it be in the smaller , urban commun ities in this province or even in the Northern and remote communities, what you would see is that many municip alities wo uld almost be bankrupt to try and provide the type of payment and type of funds to keep their volunteer fire departments going.

I think I want to use this opportunity to ask the Min ister a few questions, but also to put on the record, I think, the appreciation of all Manitobans to people who do give of themselves, their time and their efforts in being volunteer firemen. One of the things that is, I think, tremendously gratifying is to see in many instanc es both the labour and management coming to a good understand ing. By that, I mean that we have a lot of employers who have busine sses to run and suddenly when the beeper goes off, the emp loyee takes off, and he might be without an emplo yee for the rest of the day.

I can assure the Mini ster, having gone through that, when you've got a customer waiting for a car repair and you've got the fuel pump off and the mechanic takes off on you and that customer wants to get going, that person does not exactly have the type of understanding that one might wish that person to have. So I say to the Mini ster, not only is there a lot of give and take on the part of the empl oyer, there is a lot of dedication by all the people that are involved, even though they might not be directly at the scene of the fire.

So it's something that I guess you only appreciate once you've been involved in from the stan dp oint of someone that is eith er empl oying someone on the volunt eer fire service or somebody actually involved in it. I guess what I'm saying is my hat's off to emplo yers as well as the people involved in helping make our communit ies a safer place to live. 1156

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 I would ask the Min ister if she could just tell us briefly how the training programs are going with regard to volunteer firefighting? Have we still got schools going up in Gimli, I believe, and I know that we've opened a new one in Brandon. I wonder if she could just elaborate a little bit on that. HON. M.B. DOLIN: First of all, with regard to the member's comments at first. I couldn't agree and we take our hats off too.

Certainly if that person waiting for the fuel pump, or whatever, also owned the house that was burning, perhaps they'd have a little more understanding, but we certainly do appreciate, as do all people who live in Manitoba, the efforts of the volu nteer firefighters and the employers who are sometimes themselves members of the brigade. With regard to remuneration, most of them are being given some remuneration by the municip alities, so that is in place already.

With regard to the training, we train at our three locations: Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson, and then there are sometimes some regional schools in a more approp riate area for the people concerned. So those progr ams are ongoing and, in fact, in Manitoba we enjoy the respect of other provinces across this country and we have, as far as I can tell, from attending conferences on this issue, and so on, have been asked for advice because we have the finest fire protection services and organization of firefighters anywhere in the country. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)( 1) Fire Prevention, Salaries­ pass; 2.(c)

(2) Fire Prevention, Other Expenditures­ pass; 2.(c)(3)(

a) Engineering and Technical Services, Salaries; 2.(c)(3)(

b) Other Expenditures - no question on this item? 2.(c)(3)(a) . Engineering and Technical Services, Salaries- pass; 2.(c)(3)(

b) Engineering and Technical Services, Other Expenditures-pass. 2.(d) ( 1) Employment Standards, Salaries; 2. (d)

(2) Other Expenditures . . . A MEMBER: Wait a minute. HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, he's just reading out what they are. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm just reading it - Oh, I skipped one, sorry. I'm just trying to read the whole set. MR. R. BANMAN: You're doing a good job of trying to pass the Estimates, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item No. 2.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures; Item No. 2.(d)

(3) Payment of Wages Fund -t he Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, I'm on (1) , Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister indicate where Manitoba ranks with respect to minimum wages? HON. M.B. DOLIN: We are third, but there are three ahead of us because there are two tied for second, as I understand.

Saskatch ewan and the Yukon Territories are at $4.25 an hour; Northwest Territories - I'm not sure what theirs is, they are going up, and then Quebec and Manitoba are at $4 an hour and Ontario is on a phased program that will bring them to $4 an hour by the end of this year - in October they will go to $4 an hour as well. So that's one, two, three, four, five that are in this top group, if you will. The others have increased theirs to something just under that. Ontario, as I said, is phasing into $4 an hour; Alb erta is at $3.80; New Brunswick at $3.80 - they're in the same range. Several of them are at $3. 75.

The Federal Government is the lowest at $3.50. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I notice that the Min ister is looking at a list. I wonder if she would be kind enough to supply the Member for La Verendrye and myself with a copy? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Certainly. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, a news report today indicates that the Deputy Mini ster has stated that the Mini ster has received a report from the Minimum Wage Board. I wonder if she has a copy of that report available? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I have that report. I am taking it to my colleagues. MR. G. MERCIER: She doesn't want to supply us with a copy? HON.

M.B. DOLIN: Not yet, soon. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Min ister recommend ing any changes in the minimum wage? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Well, I think that I will be ready to make ihat kind of a comment as soon as Cabinet has a chance to discuss what has come forward from the Minimum Wage Board. MR. G. MERCIER: Who is on the Minimum Wage Board? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I'll get you the names in just a moment. lt is a board of people appointed who are recommended and appointed by management and labour, employers and employees and we have the list right here. May I have the envelope please? John Atwell is the Chair pers on.

Ther e are three em ploy ee representatives: Bernard Christophe, Bill Haiko and Mary Parkhill. There are three employer representatives: Ray Ho over, Ray Cousineau, and Cec il Yan. The Secretary to the Minimum Wage Board is Jim Wood from our department. MR. G. MERCIER: In the report the Minister received, I wonder if she could ind icate whether it was a unanimous recommendation? 11 57 HON. M.B. DOLIN: I don't remember when the Minimum Wage Board has come in with a unanimous recommendation. They usually don't, as I understand it. I don't have a long history of that, but I could probably research it for you.

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, if I recollect correctly, I think they have come in with un animo us re commendations previously in some instances. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I understand - a correction - that in 1976-77 there was a unanimous recomm endation. MR. G. MERC IER: Will the Min ister release a copy of the report after Cabinet makes a decision? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I will leave that final decision to Cabinet, but I beli eve that's normal. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (d)

(1) Employment Standards, Salaries-pass; 2.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. 2.(d)(3) - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We're dealing with the Payment of Wages Fund here and I wonder if the Mi nister could tell us what was the amount paid out last year. HON. M.B. DOLIN: In payment of wages? MR. R. BANMAN: Yes . HON. M.B. DOLIN: Approximately $550,000. MR. R. BANMAN: Are there still some outstanding claims? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I'm not sure if this'll answer the member's question exactly, and I would hope that he would ask a futher question if it doesn't.

But we have paid out $438,486. 19 in the reporting year, and been able to recover $85,214.37. There are still some, of course, that we are trying to recover funds from. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)

(3) Payment of Wages Fund. Another question from the Member for La Ve rendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Is the Mini ster contemplating some changes to the Payment of Wages Fund this year? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Ye s, a reduction. I'm not sure that I'm answering the question but that's what, you know, we're reducing the amount because we see that there is a decline in bankru ptcies and receivers hips, a very sharp decline, and we believe that we are hopefully past the big peak of those and our experience ind icates that we can safely reduce the amount.

We are also in consultation through a committee, that is chaired by the Deputy Min ister, with the people who indi cated their support for such a group to try to determine a better way to handle the payment of wages to employees who are caught in this kind of situation without relying on the taxpay ers doing it. Tha t committee is proceed ing with its deliberations. MR. R. BANMAN: Ye s, what I was after is whether the Min ister was contemplating any legislative or policy changes with regard to this? HON. M.B. DOLIN: We may upon receipt of the report of that commi ttee.

If you recall we did have a bill, Bill 54 I believe it was, and found the suggestion of the Chamber of Commerce, and various other groups, that we sit down and work out an altern ative way of putting monies into a fund to cover this contingency that we withdr aw that bill. That was done and we are now working on ways to evolve such a fund. You know, it's easier said than done. They are attempting to research several different ways in which this can be done and when they report there may be either a policy change, or if necessary a legislative change which they will recommend to us. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, who is serving on that Advisory Board? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Jack MacDonald, from the Royal Bank; Jim Wright, Past President of the Winnip eg Chamber of Com merce; Chris Monk, from the Federation of Labour; and Gerry Bentle y, from the Building Trades. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, is the Min ister or the Deputy Minister and the committee monitoring the progress of the new Bankcruptcy Act? Of course there's been a new Bank ruptcy Act before Parliament - I'm not finished, Mr.

Chairman - for a numb er of years but there was an amendment that was int roduced to the Committee of the Hous e of Commons by the Consumer and Corporate Affairs Mini sters which would give priority with respect to wages. Hopefully that would pass because that would solve a great deal of the problem. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Certainly they are monitoring it very closely. Of course, the slowness of the passage of that is one of the reasons that they have been delayed in their delib erations. About 17 years it's been worked on. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, could the Mi nister ind icate whether the emp loyees of the Assiniboia Downs on whose behalf or in whose favour an order was made under The Payment of Wages Act early in Februar y, 19 83, and were yet unpaid as of ... HON. M.B. DOLIN: They have been paid. MR. G. MERCIER: They have now been paid? HON. M.B. DOLIN: They have been paid. MR. G. MERCIER: When were they paid? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Approxi mately two months to three months ago. MR. G. MERCIER: lt took a year for them to get paid. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Well that was before the courts for some time too I believe. lt was . . . MR. G.

MERCIER: lt's almost as tough as collecting expense accounts. HON. M.B. DOLIN: . . . a difficult situation I think for all involved. 1158

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(dX3) Payment of Wages Fund ­ pass. 2.(e)( 1) Manitoba Labour Board: Salaries; 2.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter has appropr iated almost an identical amount in this area. Should the government bring forward the legislation as per the White Paper it would really give the Labour Board expanded powers and I would imagine additional staff, additional expenditures. Has the Min ister taken that into consideration? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Ye s. Part of the consideration of change in this area was a complete costing-out of the greatest possible expense so that we could determine where we wanted to be on the ladd er, if you will.

We also dete rmine d what it would cost should such legislation be passed this spring, and phasing in of such a program begin. Obvio usly it's not going to happen overn ight. So we do have those costs available to us. lt depends on how fast the phasing is done. lt depends on whether the legislation is presented and passed. lt depends on a lot of things but we certainly would not present such legislation without determining how much it was going to cost. We made our decision on the basis of that.

The independence of the Labour Board is something that is recommended by both management and labour, has been for some time, cer tainly since I've been the Min ister they've been telling me about it. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Mini ster ind icate how many first contracts have been imposed by the Labour Board sinc e the be ginnin g of the legisla tion? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Since the last time we met in Estimates? MR. G. MERCIER: Since it went into effe ct. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Oh, since the legislation was passed. All right. Three have been imposed, three contracts. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, there was a news report on March 26th which ind icated it contained some statements by union officials. lt said - the first contract legislation has become a useful tool in organizing workers. Legislation has made it easier to organize workers. Would the Min ister agree that was one of the objectiv es of the legislation? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: First, I don't have the news report in front of me but certai nly that's a spino ff effect because as an emplo yee choosing to have a bargaining agent, one would expect that the reason to have that bargaining agent is so that one would not have to get involved in negotiations thems elves but would have a bargaining agent to do it for them so that they could have a contract.

If, in fact, then the bar gaining agent is absolutely stymied in obtaining such a contract, then cert ainl y the emp loyees involved, not ever having experienced a contract, having chosen a bargaining agent who couldn't get a contract, could become quite disenchanted. When a person joins the union, I think it's un derstandable that they would expect that the result of the certification of that bargaining agent would be that they would within a reasonable amount of time have a contr act that set out their working conditions and so on. That is exactly what first contract does, if the parties cannot settle.

The fact that only three have been imposed in the years that this legislation has now been in place, ind icates that the legislation is doing exactly what was intended; that is that it is a deterrent to delay - that's un necessary kind of delays - and it's a deterrent to any kind of bad-faith bargaining that might take place and therefore the parties wishing to design the contract themse lves in fact do so. Even when it's sometimes at the last minu te. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, there was a case involving a ruling by the Manitoba Labour Board involving Tan Jay, and the Court of Appeal, as I understand it from the news report, overruled the Manitoba Labour Board. My question to the Min ister is this, under the Min ister's White Paper proposals, would that decision of the Manitoba Labour Board have been allowed to be appealed? Would the proposals in the White Paper rule out that type of appeal? HON. M.B. DOLIN: This was a case of the judge ruling on a

section of our act that wouldn't be changed and that is that the act says that a contract is a contract when it is duly executed. The judge ruled in the overturning of the case that that meant that it had to be signed. In fact, Tan Jay had not signed the contract so ther efore the judge ruled there was no contract. That case, under that circumstance, could still be taken to court on that point. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)( 1) - pass; 2. (e)(2)- pass. 2.(f)( 1) Conciliation and Mediation Services: Salaries; 2.( f)

(2) Other Expendit ur es - the Memb er for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Cha irman, the Min ister mentioned earlier that this was the year where a lot of two-year contracts were coming due and one of the reasons for some of the labour harmony last year was the fact that there were a number of two year contracts in place. The Conciliation and Mediation Services supp lied by the department, it looks like the appropriation is about exactly the same. Does she expect that the workload is going to be about the same as it was last year? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: We expect from past experience over the years tha t the amount of work will be approximately the same. We do have a vacancy. I would suspect that we would be filling that vacancy and we do have a slight increase for fees offered for the requirement for French Language Conciliation when that is requested and we have had a few requests for it. This is an area where, if the legislation ind icates that there is a need for more people to deal with conflict at this level before it becomes terribly serious - and there is an ability to get parties together at this level 1159

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 - I don't believe that we would hesitate to improve the services in the sense of having more people available. But if they are not requested, if they are not needed, well then we wouldn't have to do that. We'll have to see what the requirements are, but we don't expect to have a great increase in requests. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister inform us as to the list of names she uses to appoint as arbitrators? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: I have received a list of names from the Labour Management Review Committee, which is the list of names used and they're used in rotation, I believe, depending on their availability. They're used in rotation, but if one isn't available you drop down to the next one. it's fairly automatic and objective as far as the app ointment is concerned, but the list is developed by the Labour Ma nagement Review Commi ttee and submitted to me. MR. G. MERCIER: When was that list developed? HON. M.B. DOUN: Approximately six months ago. might add that arbitrators that we had been using were included on the list. MR. G.

MERCIER: All of the arbitrators that the Minister was using are included on the Labour Management Review Committee's list? HON. M.B. DOLIN: There are some arbitrators that we used that are outside of Winnipeg, when we have an arb itration case, say in Brandon or Thomps on, something like that. Now, the Labour Management Review Comm ittee did not consider that need and I've asked them to add to the list so that we have people from outside the city as well, who can hear arbitration cases. So, that wasn't included and we do have some that are used from outside the city that weren't on that list.

That occasion arises not very often, but when it does it is a real need and so the Labour Management Review Comm ittee is addressing that, I hope, at this point. MR. G. MERCIER: How many names are on that list? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I'm not sure. The list was expanded by them to include some new people, and I'm not sure. I think it's around 10 or 11 , I can't remember. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister doesn't have that list with her with staff, could she undertake to provide me with a copy? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Yes, I'd be happy to provide you with that. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(f)( 1) Conciliation and Mediation Services: Salaries-pass; 2.(f)

(2) Other Expenditures­ pass; 2.( g)

(1) Apprenticeship and Training: Salaries, 2.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, has the Department of Labour any statistics available which on a profession basis shows how we stack up against other provi nces with regard to, let's say the number of licenced mechanics in the province, and in the different trades? How do we compare with Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I wonder if what the member is looking for is areas of need where perhaps we don't have as many mechanics as we need, we have too many welders, I'm not sure. Is that what the question really is intended? MR. R. BANMAN: No, Mr.

Chairman. One of the difficulties - and it's interesting the Minister of Highways is here - in implementing a piece of legislation that was passed some 10 years ago I believe with regard to motor vehicle safety in this province was the problem that the legislation required licensed mechanics to sign the form. For years, the governments agonized over the problem of not having enough licensed mechanics around to sign these application forms. My question is along those lines. Ontario has the same type of legislation, and yet people in Fort Frances or Red Lake or all over do get them signed.

I guess, my question is: our apprenticeship programs, are we at par or do we have the same number of tradespeople on a per capita basis who have received their papers versus some of the other provinces, because in this instance it did present a problem? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I can't give you an answer on the per capita number, a comparison on the per capita numb er of particular apprenticable tradespersons across Canada and how we rate. I think that you would have to use a whole lot of variables and factors to get that kind of a comparison anyway. There are no areas that we have found severely lacking.

We have certainly changed the apprenticable trades that we have, eliminating some, adding others as an obvious need arises. Perhaps one other area that might answer some of your questions is that we have voluntary certification in Manitoba,

whereas most other provinces I believe have compu lsory certification - most other. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( g)

(1) Apprenticeship and Training: Salaries - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I rece