LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle­ Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Me mber for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the Commi ttee of Supply ha s ado pted certain resolutions, directs me to report same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie, report of committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINIS TERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERL ING R. LYON (Ch arleswood): Mr. Speaker, I would like to lay on the table of the House the press co mmunique that was issued late yesterday afternoon following the meeting between Governor Olson, myself and the respective Ministers and staff. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Finance. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (S ouris-Kil larney): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture I would like to table copies of an annou ncement the Minister has made this afternoon regarding a Hog Stabilization Program. MR.

SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . The Honourable Member for Inks ter. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, with regard to the communique, I see no difficulty there and I think that that is acceptable but if it's an announcement, Mr. Speaker, with respect to a program, and there is nothing in the Orders of the Day which provides for the makin g of an announcement other than by the Minister making it, then I would · regret, Mr. Speaker, if the announcement is being tabled in this way merely to prevent the comment on it that is ordinarily allowed to the Opposition.

Now I think that that has been done with regard to perfunctory matters such as flood reports and what have you, but if it's the announcement of a program and it's being presented to the House, then I think that if the Minister wants to lay it on the table, that's satisfactory, but the Opposition should have the opportunity of commenting. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance on the point of order. MR. RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, if the honourable members wish, I'd be happy to read this statement into the record of the behalf of the Minister of Agriculture.

I simply was tabling it as a matter of courtesy, because the statement is being made to the Hog Producers' Annual Meeting in Brandon this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: Ha s the Ho nour able Minister copies? Copies have been distributed. The Honoura ble Minister may proceed. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the Ma nitoba Government intends to take steps to support the province's hog ind ustry in light of current low market returns. The Manitoba Government is prepared to contribute up to $5 mill ion to establish a hog producer income insur ance plan, which would operate from January 1s t, 19 81, to December 31 st, 19 82.

Participation in the plan would be voluntary and by only those producers who are eligible. Those who wish to participate would have to do so for the full two-year period and would be req uired to pay a premium. The program would be designed to cover producers of market hogs and weanling pigs. The produ cers could expect to receive their payments for the first quarter of 1981. The fund would be administered by a five member committee, which would be made up of three hog producers and two other members, all of which would be appointed by the Minister of Agriculture.

In addition to the initial grant, the government would also be prepared to make available a loan guarantee of up to a maximum of $5 million should a deficit situation occur within the fund. Other details including support levels, premium rates and the number of hogs each producer would be eligible to enroll would be determined by the Management Committee of the Fund. The government feels that hog producers themselves should have the major input into developing the kind of program that will work best for them.

Once the details have been arranged and are made known to producers they will be able to determine the specific benefits that will be accrued to them through the program. In the meantime the Minister of Agriculture will press for a more meaningful Federal stabilization program, which would put an end to the need for provincial stabilization. If provincial stabilization programs are to continue instead of producing hogs where it makes the most economic sense, future hog production patterns would be based upon which provincial treasury is prepared to spend the most money.

Hogs are one of the agricultural commodities eligible for support under the Federal Government's existing stabilization program. In addition to the support we will be providing our hog industry locally, 2559

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 it is expected that the Federal Government Vlill soon be announcing some additional support le vels for 19 81. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased that the Minister has seen fit to read the statement into the record to give members on this side an opportunity to respond, Mr. Spe aker. It seems evident that the present government, although we all in this Ho use are in agre ement, that stabalization plans should be of national in scope, Mr.

Sp eaker, but it seems that the Provincial Government of Manitoba has to be numbe r 10, in terms of having to be cohersed, embarras>ed and allowing many producers to have gone banl(rupt, in the hog industry, Mr. Speaker, in the last tv.o years, even though we now have a program that nem bers on the other side, when the Beef Income Ansurance Plan was introduc ed for a five-year period, and the members of the then Conservative Oppositil)n, were critizing that they were tying producers down for a period of five years, Mr. Speaker.

We have now a program that is tying proc ucers to two years, just in -(I nterjection)- members on the gov ernment side say, quite a dif ference, Mr. Speaker. The amount of funds that is b·�ing put forward in this program, Mr. Speaker, the $5 million for a two-year period, when every hog producer in Manitoba is losing over $40.00 on every h�J that he markets, Mr. Speaker, will barely meet sorne of the costs that they are experiencing now, Mr. Speaker. It is an electioneering in the whole, Mr. Speakm, that it will pull some of their low low positions in rural Manitoba out of the fire, Mr. Speaker.

That's all that this can be attributed to. Last year, Mr. Speaker, the Premier of this province announced a $40 million drought program - $40 million drought program, of which . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that his comments be germane to the subject matter before us, which is a hog program. The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, my comments are very germane, because the government announce d a $40 million drought program, of which they did11't spend $20 million, in which they could have and said to the people of Manitoba . . . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order plea�e. Would the honourable member care to make his remarks germane to the subject matter at hand? The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, my remarks are to the stabalization program, Mr. Speaker. Tl1ere was ample room for the government to manoeuver, in terms of providing assistance to hog prod Jeers last year, because hog producers didn't come into this plight just overnight, Mr. Speaker. We t ave seen many producers go bankrupt in the Province of Manitoba.

It just so happens that this annou ncement is being coincided, that the Minister now c.an't back out, he has to meet with the producers at the annual 2560 meeting in Brandon, Mr. Speaker, and he has no alternative but to come up with some announcement, Mr. Speaker. It's too late for many producers, Mr. Speaker, and the program in terms of assisting producers, we have yet to see the details, but $5 million in terms of the hog assistance program, will do very little in a two­ year period for many producers. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: At this time, I would like to draw the honourable members' attention to the galle ry, where we have 56 students of Grade 5 Standing from the James Nesbitt School under the direction of Miss Morose and Mrs. Jenkins. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. We also have 24 students of Grade 9 standing from the Arborg Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Jacobson, and this school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. George. On behalf of all honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St.

George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I feel somewhat like the farmer who was going to milk a cow on a cold night; thank goodness for warm hands today, Mr. Speaker. I ask the First Minister, Mr. Speaker, in light of the announc ement that is to be made today, whether or not there are any further details that are being provide d in terms of the parame ters of the Stabilization Program? What is being looked to from producers when right now they are losing over $40 per every hog that they are marketing and they are unable to meet even the feed costs in most instances? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR.

LYON: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that the Minister of Ag ricultur e will be happ y to enlighten the honourable member and members of the House when he returns from his speaking engagement with the Hog Producers Association. The announcement that he is making, so far as I'm aware, encompasses the general outlines of the plan that were given in the statement read by my colleague, the Minister of Finance.

The plan is being entered into, as the honourable member will be well aware, because as stated in the announc ement itself, there has been in different qua rters a decl ine in income to hog producers without accepting the particular figures that are used by the Honourable Member for St. George. It's our hope that this plan will be of assistance to hog producers in Ma nitoba, a volunt ary plan. Reference was made to the former Beef Stabilization Plan, and we hope that we can learn from some of the problems that arose from that plan and not fall into the same errors that were manifested in that plan.

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 My recollection, Mr. Speaker, is that the hog numb ers in Manitoba are up rather considerably from what they were say in 19 76-77 thereabouts. We want to see that continue as well because the hog industry is an important industry in the agricultural sector. Important not only for those engaged in it, but for the food processing and packing industries that are dependent upon it, and I'm sure working together, all members of the House would like to see that industry prosper in this province. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, could the First Minister indicate where the funds for this program are to be provided in terms of government Estimates? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I would expect that the funds for this program will show up in Supplementary Supply. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George with a final supplementary. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I ask the First Minister, in view of the lack of details on the program, since the Minister of Agricultur e of this province was asked for two years to consider some stabilization in this program, is this program going to be a program similar in nature to the announcement of moving of staff in the Department of Agriculture to Brandon where we don't even know whether there's an office building available for them? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, the Mayor and the citizens of Brandon will be well aware of the fact that real decentralization is taking place, not the kind of shall we say, hollow announcements that used to take pla ce, I'll be kind today, and say in previous administrations, once removed, and we are making strides in that kind of meaningful decentralization which I am sure the Member for Brandon East appreciates even if the Member for St. George doesn 't. As to the details of the plan, I believe I have answered that question when I first arose.

The Minister will be here tomorrow and can give any details that the honourable member wishes to have. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. The First Minister has recently been quoted as saying that there was a mistake made with respect to the property tax and cost ·Of living changes that were introduced a year ago tomorrow, and that those people who had suffered under the new so-called improved program, especially the poor people, would be recompensed by the government.

He was asking them to contact him and some compensation would be ma de. I'm ju st wondering wha t kind of compensation, what is the formula for compensation for these individuals who have in fact, received less because of the new program? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I regret, I perhaps didn't catch all of the first part of my honourable friend's question but I think I get the drift of it. I can get the tape in question on which the question and answer took place about the program.

I don't recall talking about mistakes, I don't recall saying that there was any formula for any plan; what I do recall, and I'll get the tape and verify it, was that we wanted citizens who felt that they were genuinely prejudiced by the new White Paper program, that is, citizens of low income, if they would let the Department of Finance know, we would look at the cases individually to see if there had been anomalies in the plan which we were not aware of. That was basically the intent of what I was saying at that time, Mr. Speaker. I will be happy to look at the tape however.

That's really what we are asking, as the Minister of Finance has said on a number of occasions, and -(I nterjections)- Well if my honourable friends, Mr. Speaker, are not interested in an answer, I am quite happy not to answer them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, I was trying to hear, there was some mumbling over on that side. I was listening to the Peter Warren Show just yesterday morning.

He was quoting the First Minister as saying that the Civil Service had made a mistake and that's why some people in the $8,0 00 to $10 ,000 bracket were receiving less in returns, but they should contact the First Minister and these things would be rectified, and that was why I was asking whether in fact there was a formula for repayment, and the First Minister has indicated that at this point in time there isn't.

But I would ask further whether in studying that formula he can ensure that the formula will give those people the same kind of increase in benefits as he gave to those with incomes of more than $40,000 a year, that is a $10 0 extra minimum property tax credit? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, with all of the other matters that have to be attended to, serious matters, I try to make it a habit not to answer facetious questions that are based on misinformation. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Memb er for Rossmere with a final supplementary. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Opposition Caucus has received hundr eds of letters from people who have received less. The First .Minister suggests that these are facetious questions. I suggest that the reason the government hasn't received those letters is that people know perfectly well that his government is no longer listening.

I would ask the First Minister, in view of the fact that when this document was introduced he spent some $60,000 of taxpayers' money to tell how great we were having it, in view of the fact that thousands of Manitobans are suffering by this new improved program, will he now agree that program should be paid for, that advert ising, misspen ding of public funds should be paid for by the Progr essive Conservative Party of Manitoba? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, if my honourable friends were as good at framing questions as they are at rapping their desks we would have a more enlightened Opposition in this House, but I merely say to my honourable friend again that if he has 2561

______________ W____:_ed ne sd ay, 8 April, 1981 legitimate cases that have been broug ht to his attention, where people can demonstrate th3t under one aspect of the program, the income ta� aspect, they are getting less money and they are not getting more under other aspects and they are lov. income people, we want to see those cases. He can be, Mr. Speaker, helpful to the individuals involved.

He can be helpful to the process of government, a11d we're all trustees of government in this House, if he will bring those to our attention, so that we can look at them to see if they are legitimate cases where people are receiving less. If there are anomalies, we want to clear them up. We're not aware from the kinds of statements though that are being made in ·a rhetorical way by honourable friends oppo�;ite, that there is anything of a substantive nature that has to be corrected at this stage. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no urable Memb er for Inks ter. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister. Has the First Minister received any information, either in a formal or an informal way, that the Prime Minister of thi!; country has said that he will block any patriation forrnula that does not include his charter depriving Canadians of their rights? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minisl.er. MR. LYON: No, Mr. Speaker, I have ha d no communication from the Prime Minister in response to my telex to him of last Friday.

We have, cf course, seen the statements that the Prime Minister has been making in the House of Commons anil I'm not really up-to-date on what the current situation is this afte rnoon. The position of the Gov ernment of Canada seems to have been changing like �� weather vane in a windstorm. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in the Fi rst Minister's role, with respect to the Premiers, can it be made clear to both the people of the Province of Manitoba and to the Prime Minister of Canada that if an amending formula is agreed to, that thEtre would be nothing blocking the return to Canada of our Constitution, except the Prime Minister's insistence on a charter, which would deprive Canadians of their rights with respect to responsible government? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, we hope to mak1l clear at the meeting, which we hope will take place next week on the 16 th, a numb er of the items that the Honourable Member for Inks ter has alluded to. I would hope that the people of Canada will find that the work that the eight provinces have been carrying now for some considerable amount of time and with some considerable success is going to be beneficial for the whole country. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osbome): Mr.

Speaker, in response to a question from March 28th, by the Member for Inkster, with respect to funds from the Provincial Government for the Sn erbrook­ McGregor Overpass, he asked whether the province had contributed towards any preliminary cost by the City of Winnipeg respecting the overpass. Mr.

Speaker, after checking with the Department of Highw ays and Transportation, which administered those grants until 19 79, I can confirm my initial response to him, that the province did in fact, contribute in excess of $500,000 towards preliminary design work, preparation of a submission to the Canadian Transport Commission, and purchase of a number of properties, which were to be used for the approaches and construction of the bridge. Generally the provinces contribution represented 50 percent of approved project expenditures.

That type of conditional grant ended on March 31 st, 1979, when we introduc ed the unconditional block grant, part of which replaced condit ional grants for acquisition of transportation rights-of-way and construction of regional streets in the City of Winnipeg. Concurrent with the introduction of block funding, it was a decision by the province to forego its equity interest in all land acquisitions made by the city under the former conditional grant programs. That was estimated at the time to be some $6 million to $7 million. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, it is entirely up to the City of Winnipeg to decide what it will do with any of the lands, which were purchased for the Sherbrook-McGregor right-of-way. If they decide to sell the lands, it is again up to the city to use the proceeds as it wishes. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Inks ter. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that what the Attorney-General has said, it would indicate that $500,000 plus some millions, and I don't know how many millions it would be, because I imagine that the $7 million relates to all kinds of potential programs, but some millions has been invested by the Provincial Government with respect to the building of a Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass. Is there not some obligation on the city either to proceed with that project or to make amends to the people of the province with regard to the monies that they have taken from the province for the specific purpose of building that project?

MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, as I understand the previous conditional grants, they were sharing 50 percent, for example, of the cost of preliminary design work, preparation of a submission to the Canadian Transport Commission, but the province was not paying 50 percent of those works to the city on the condition that they proceed to the ultimate conclusion, the construction of the Sherbr ook­ McG regor Overpass, although that was probably reasonably assumed by the province. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, may I then ask the Attorney-General again, whether in view of the fact that his so-called block funding program has turned into a fund blocking program, and also in view of the fact that provincial funds no longer can in any way establish some provincial priorities in urban affairs, whether or not the Minister would reconsider as to whether the province, when it makes that kind of commitment to urban affairs, has some say in what should happen; especially, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that it's resulted in the cancellation of a program, which the city has received millions of 2562

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 dolla rs for, and has also resulted in increase in transit fares from 40 cents to 60 cents or the equivalent of 12 mills to those people who have to ride the buses? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I don't accept the Member for Inkster's fund blocking description of the program. Funds were increased, Mr. Speaker, by some 16 .8 percent over the previous year to the City of Winnipeg in that program, and of course the decision-making process is left in the hands of the city. I wou ld suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that if he has concerns over the cancellation of the Sherbrook­ McGregor Overpass, as I do, that perhaps he could speak to the members who sit on that side of the House to his right, the members of the NDP party, Mr. Speaker, who represent supposedly the north end of this city, and provided the votes that defeated the construction of that project. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, ... MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood, on a point of privilege. MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Attorney­ General just made a false statement.

He attributed the defeat of a measure on City Council to members of the Provincial Legislatur e, and I think he's confusing Members of City Council with Members of this Legislature, and I think that discrepancy should be cleared up. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Speaker, to make my comments clear on the point of privilege raised by the Mem ber for Elm wood , Mr. Speaker, I was referring to the NDP Mem bers of Council, who supposedly represent the north end of this city. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN : Mr.

Speaker, would the Attorney­ General agree, that included in his calculations of the fund blocking program that he has set up, there were as a base, moneys that-were designated for major streets which connect to provincial highways such as the Sherbrook-McGregor overpass, a transit grant which was designed to keep the fares at a frozen level and a block grant to make the Assiniboine Park effectively a provincial park, and that as a result of the fund blocking, the city need not invest those funds in any of those projects? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker. the concept of block funding was to encompass. I believe, some eight or nine various areas. which included the operation of 2563 the transit department, construction of regional streets, Assiniboine Park, and a num ber of other areas, Mr. Speaker, and within those areas, the City of Winnipeg has the discretion to establish priorities for the City of Winnip eg in response to their electorate. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister responsible for Public Housing.

On March 2, 1981 I asked the Minister if he would provide legal assistance to those people living in public housing on social assistance on Plessis Road whose sewers backed up with fish heads causing a lot of pro perty dama ge to those individuals. I asked the Minister if he would provide legal assistance and I was informed by him that they shoul d apply to Legal Aid because they wou ld appear to be eligible for legal aid.

Has his staff informed him that the Legal Aid office has turned down the requests of these people living on social assistance in public housing owned by the Province of Manitoba, on grounds that these people should get a lawyer to act on their behalf on a contingency basis, and that they should give a portion of their settlement, if they receive a settlement for property damages, to a lawyer, thus losing a percentage of their just settlement, if they receive one, in order to pay tor legal assistance? Has he been told of that by his staff? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

HON. GARY FILMON (R iver Heights): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. PARASIUK: My supplementary is directed to the Minister responsible for Legal Aid, and I would ask him, if it corresponds with the Conservative government's concept of justice that people living on social assistanc e in public housing, who are damaged, who sutter property damage through no action of their own, should be required to get legal assistance, not through Legal Aid, but rather by going out and hiring lawyers on a contingency basis, thereby foreg oing some of the settlement for property dama ges that they might win?

Is this part of the Conservative concept of justice? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, to the best of my kno wledge, there's been no change in the criteria used by Legal Aid in considering an application of this sort for assistance. I'm advis ed that the individuals involved have filed an appeal of the Executive Director's decision which is to be heard by the Board next week with respect to the issuance of a certificate for legal aid in this case. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member tor Transcona with a final supplementary. MR.

PARASIUK: My question is directed to the Minister responsi ble tor Housing. It's a supplementary to the previous two questions.

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 In view of the fact that the Executive Director of Legal Aid initially has not provided legal a!.sistance to people on social allo wances living iu public housing, will the Minister ensure that the go�ernment will provide legal assistance to these people to seek a just settlement for their property damage!: caused by no fault of their own? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I think that decision should await the decision of the Board of t 1e Legal A�. . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS.

JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. 3peaker. My question is addr essed to the Honourable Minister of Labour. I wonder if he would inform the House wh,�ther the Provincial Government has yet signed an aweement with the Employment and Immigration Commission of the Federal Government relat ive to shar ed responsibility for integration of immigrants into the labour force, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. MS. WESTBURY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I understand that there is a review which is being participated in by - and I'm quoting from a report hme from provinces and major non- govern mental organizations, and I wonder if anyone trom the Minister's department is participating in that review process, looking into the matter of integ ation of immigrants into the labour force? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I have had many letters sent to the Hon. Lloyd A xw•Jrthy in relationship to immigration matters. I havu to say, and it's nothing I haven't said to him, that he and I seem to have some problems communicatiug.

There isn't the prop er degree, in my opi nion, of consultation between his office and mine, � nd we're continually trying to work out a better system of consultation, as the Federal legislation says there should be. That consultation has not taken place. Mr. Axworthy is aware of my concern and this could be just another incident of the Federal Government and that federal bureaucracy if you wish, with no disrespect meant to it, of work ing at somet·hing that we're not totally familiar with which they're working. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MS. WESTBURY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the Minister's comments but I wonder if he could further comment on the fact that agreemBnts have been signed with all of the provinces except B.C., Alb erta. Manitoba and Ontario, apparently, and I wonder if he has any knowledge of those a�treements or of the fact that this consultation has <tpparently been going on. If there is, I'm not objecting to the 2564 Minister's statements, Mr. Speaker, but I just am asking if he has any further knowledge as to why our province is one of those that has not signed an agreement? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm having some difficulty keeping the questions in order because the first question that was posed to me was whether an agreement was signed, and the honourable member, in her third question, outlines that Manitoba had not signed an agreement. Well, I can confirm, to the best of my knowledge as I did in answer to the first qu estion, that I don't bel ieve we've signed an agreement. And I say to you, Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of what Al berta or B.C. or Ontario has done or has not done, and I have said that we are having a consultation problem. Communi cations aren't what they should be. MR.

SPEAK ER : The Ho nour able Memb er for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question as well is to the Minister of Labour, and I would ask the Minister if he can inform the House as to what is creating the delay in presenting the Mines Safety Review Impl ementation Committee Report which was signed almost a month ago, or a good three weeks ago, and should have been passed on to the Minister for his information, and I would suspect for his use in his publ ication during the latter part of last month, and yet we have heard nothing of that report.

I would ask the Minister what the delay is in bringing that report forward. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I suspect mid-next week at the fastest that that report will be made public and copies will be sent to the members of the Opposition and the press and anybody else who wants it. Our departments, in conjunction with the Department of Mines, are reviewing that report right now and the recommendations therein. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no urable Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: As the Minister seems to have been apprised of the report, and it appears as if the Minister's Department or the Minister himself has had an opportunity to review the report, I'd ask the Minister if he can now give a commitment that the recommendations of that Committee will in fact be implemented in full in the near future.

I understand that there are time limits given with the recommendations and I'd like his assurances as to whether or not he intends or intends to have his department and the Department of Mines ensure that those recommendations are implemented by the time limits given in the committee report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, there are time limits suggested in several aspects of the recommendations and they will be given thorough consideration. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for Churchill with a final supplementary.

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 MR. COWAN: Well, as the Minister indicated when forming this Committee that this Committee would be responsible for coming forward to the government with strong recom mendations as to the implementation of the Wright Committee Report, can the Minister confirm or can the Minister give a commitment that those recommendations in full will be adopted by the government and will in fact be brought forward as it was indicated they would be at the time the Committee was formed?

This, of course, is even more important a subject, given the Workers' Compensation statistics which came out last week, which show that there has been a 20 percent increase in the numb er of accidents in the mining ind ustry dur ing the last year or the num ber of accidents reported to Workers' Compensation. Is the Minister now prepared to give a commitment or at least to reaffirm the commitment which he gave when he formed the Mine Safety Implementation Committee that their recommendations will in fact be implemented? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Sp eaker, when that Committee was formed, and again we have to put that in the record because we keep getting chastised from the Memb er for Churchill as to even the meaning or the existence of that Committee. That Committee was formed at the insistence of the unions and the indu stry themselves to review the Wright Comm ittee Report and to suggest to this government how those recommendations should be implemented. They have so done, we have a copy of the Report. I've said I'll make it public next week, and I certainly will.

We intend to have a go od look at those recommendations, review them and implement them where possible and where we feel that it's necessary, and whether it'll be good for the welfare of the working men and women in the mining industry in this province. I think they've waited far too long for some government to pay some attention to working conditions in the mines and I'm pleased to be part of a government that initiated the concern and the commission that inquired into safety in the mines. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, since the Attorney­ General doesn 't recogniz e that City Council is controlled by Liberals and Conservatives under the guise of the ICEC, I won't ask him a question on that. What I would like to ask him about is the recent Supr eme Court ruling qn the translations of by-laws and regulations, which was handed down the other day, and I would like to ask him whether he has any estimate of what this would mean in terms of numb er of translators or numb er of months or years of catch-up required, or an estimate of the amount of funding that may be required to meet that Supreme Court ruling? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: No, I do not at this stage, Mr. Speaker. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister whether he could indicate how many dollars or what percentage of the present cost of translation services, French to English, etc., is shared by the Federal Government? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I think that's a question that could probably more appropriately be put to the Minister of Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources in whose department Translation Services are located , but it would be my understanding that none of the moneys are shared.

Although the Federal Government has assisted us by seconding a qualif ied translator for us to assist us in devel oping the translation program, and we've had the assistance of a few other translators with the Federal Government, and their department has been helpful to us and cooperated with us, but as far as actual financial sharing of cost, I don't believe that there is any. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, then I would direct that question to the Minister of Cultural Affairs and ask her, given that millions of dollars are required to meet that requirement, which is basically national and federal in scope, I would ask the Minister whether there's been any attempt by the Manitoba Government to apply to the Federal Government for cost sharing, whether there has been any attempt to negotiate an agreement to cost share translation services in the past or whether the Minister is considering making application for what has been und ertaken and for what futur e requirements will entail? MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister for Cultural Affairs. HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Aaainiboia): Well, Mr. Speaker, our first concern has been to ob tain translators. We have had been running ads nationally to attract people. Out of 30 some applicants we had, there were only 2 that were suitable, and it seems to be very difficult positions to be filled. At this moment our prime concern is to find somebody to do the translating before we get money to do it, we just cannot get the translators. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to address a question to the Minister of ·E conom ic Dev elopme nt, and ask the Minister whether he can advise the situation with regard to Edson Manufacturers Ltd. of Rivers, which is a subsidiary of Marr's Leisure Products of Winnipeg. Last January the parent company Marr's Leisure Products announced that the plant would be closed down as of May if a buyer could not be found; laying off 70 people. Can the Minister advise whether the company has yet fou nd a buyer or what is the situation with regard to that important company in the town of Rivers? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANKLIN JOHNSTON (Stur geon Creek): No, Mr. Speaker, I can't advise whether the company has found a buyer yet or not, but I will undertake to try and find out for the honourable member. 2565

______________ W__:_:eclnesday, 8 April, 1981 MR. EVANS: Well, on another area of Economic Development, Mr. Speaker, we understand that the Federal Government has now authorized work for the production of engine exhaus t fans by Br istol Aerospace of Winnipeg and also what is refnrred to as a precision no-draft aluminum forging pressing plant in Winnipeg with regard to the F- 18 A. Gan the Minister advise whether or not he expects the target of 2,000 jobs to be created in the aerospace indus try which he announced about a year ago today.

As a matter of fact, Friday April 11 th, the 1..1in ister announced that "The F- 18 A jet may bring 2,000 jobs to Manitoba." Can the Minister advise just what has occurred to date? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I remember very clearly making the announcement on the elate the member suggests, and since that time we have had some success with Bristol and the plant that he mentions, and we're still looking for succesSE!S as far as the repair and overhaul of the F- 18 is concerned , Mr. Speaker.

But, I can tell you that if we had got our fair share that was divvied up by the Federal Government throughout Canada, though the F- 18 we probably would have come close to that, but we ce rtainly did no t get the amount of tile F- 18 contracts that we would have liked to have in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. C•)uld the Honourable Minister advise whether the task force that he established approximately a year age' headed up by special projects co-ordinator, Mr. Mu rray Armstrong, is still effective and still attempting to get additional work in this field for the puo ple of Manitoba?

MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned just two minutes ago, that we are working very hard to get the support of the F- 18 aircraft in the Pr,ovince of Manitoba and we will continue to work very hard on it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, in response to a question from the Member for Fort Rouge on March 31s t, in regards to the Playgreen Inn in Norway House, Mr. Speaker, I can advise her that I am informed that no complaints have been rec:eived by the Manitoba Liquor Control Commis sion with respect to service of liquor to intoxicated persons.

I am further informed that the RCMP are continually monitoring the hotel and report little or no trouble with the patrons, and during inspections ol October and February, our inspector found no indication of over-service or intoxication. There was no evidence of unsanitary washroom conditions and with respect to inadequate washroom facilities, the num ber of uni ts apparently comply with the Commis sion requirements.

On Februar y 18 th, 19 81, the last da te of inspection, the senior inspector found conditions to be good from a health and operational sl and point, the latter being confirmed by the RCMP dE,tachment in Norway House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membnr for St. Vital. 2566 MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My qu estion is to the Honourable Minister of Education. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister's new education program no longer makes grants on the basis of one teacher salary grant for every 23 students, can the Minister inform the House whether St.

Boniface School Division is planning to lay off 23 teachers? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli ): No, I cannot, at this time, Mr. Speaker. MR. WALDING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister inform the House whether Norwood School Division is planning to lay off 11 teachers? MR. COSENS: No, Mr. Speaker, I can't give him that assurance at this time. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Speaker, a final supplementary, I wonder if the Minister would be prepared to su rvey the school divisions in this province to find out whether this trend is widespread and in fact his new education support program is tending to encourage the laying off of teachers? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, we will have some determination on the number of staff employed by school divisions perhaps by the end of May, early June. What we have seen in the last four or five years is a declining school population and a resulting decline in staff reqYirements. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, I was asked a question yesterday by the Member for Churchill as it related to cadmium at one of the plants in the city. We were first made aware of a problem on October 16 th, 1980, not a year or two ago as has been alle ged and not necessarily by the Member for Churchill but it has been alleged in the press and on some of the radio interviews that have taken place. We were first notified on October 16 th. We did very thorough tests within that plant. Within two months we had issued orders that an entire new ventilation system should be put in place.

One day prior to us issuing that order - we had the order in our hands - the company chose to cease using the type of solder that was creating the problem. That in itself relieved us of that responsibility at that time of following up and issuing the order for a ventilation system if in fact the material that was creating the fumes was being discontinued, the use of it.

Our nurse within the Workplace Safety Division has been in that plant several times in the last few months, as recently as last week, and in the last week or two, or three, or four, she has had no employee talk to her about hoarseness of voice or the rash in their face that is being alluded to now by some people. So we are having some difficulties putting that together, why they would talk to others about a problem when they wouldn't talk to our nurse, and maybe they have good reason for that. We have been directing people in the months of December and Janua ry who were not feeling well for

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 a variety of reasons that may have been in some way attached to the conditions in that plant to seek medical assistance, and that's been an ongoing thing since December. We are now asking and have asked the company in December for a record of all their emplo yees within the last ten years and will be doing a medical follow-up on that and some of those that we have directed to see doctors, we will be dealing with the doctors to see if we can work in conjunction with them as to the condition of the employees. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

At this time I would like to draw the honourable members' attention to the lo ge on my right wher e we have Mr. Jo e Jeannette, a former member· from Rupertsland as well as Mr. Dalton. The time for question period having expired, we are now under Orders of the Day. MATTER OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, if I may, prior to proceeding with the business of the House, rise on a matter of personal privilege. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister on a point of personal privilege. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, the personal privilege arises out of the story carried in today's Free Press written by one Greg Bannister who reported on the Supply Committee's consideration of my Estimates last night. Mr. Speaker, I don't normally have to take this time of the House to pass on some comment that I may wish to make from time to time with the behaviour of the media or the press, I always find other occasions to do that, but when a reporter deli berately and very blatantly attributes and prints a lie, a very big lie in the coverage and the reporting of a committee hearing then it is a matter of personal privilege. Mr.

Speaker, we can usually tell when an irregular hit man is sent in to do a vicious kind of story. I use the term irreg ula r as distinct from the regula r reporters. Mr. Speaker, the story is written with a very perceived point of bias that attempts to indicate that the arrangements entered into with Abitibi Paper Company are anything less than desirable for this province. To add a bit of zing to that story a lie had to be put into that story.

Last night - and I regret the Honourable Member for Rupertsland is not in his seat - asked me whether I would provide the information, records, pertaining to the forestry operations with Abitibi. I was very happy to confirm that I was more than prepared to provide that information for him. All other reporters and the other 40 or 50 people in the room heard that, but the reporter couldn't print that because it took some of the zing out if his story and he had to print, "Enns refused to provide Bostrom with the records asked for, denied the government was giving Abitibi any special services." Mr.

Speaker, that's the kind of nonsense that unless challenged at this time is what we have to put up with. I have no difficulty, Mr. Speaker, if a particular reporter wants to debase and so prostitute his profession, but I do object, and I do have a personal matter of privilege when the reportings are so blatantly distorted about the events that take place in this Chamber. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, would you call second reading of Bill Nos. 12 and 35, and then the Adjourned Debates on Second Reading as they appear on pages 1 and 2 of the Order Paper? MR. SPEAKER: Second reading Bill No. 12 Order please, the Honourable Government House Leader. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. MERCIER: I apologize, Mr. Speaker, I would like to personally indicate, as I have indicated earlier to the Opposition House Leader, that the Publi c Utilities Committee will meet tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. and if necessary Friday at 2:00 p.m. to com ple te consideration of the Ma nitoba Hy dr o Report.

SECOND READING GOVERNMENT BILLS BILL NO. 12 - THE MUNICIPAL ACT HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River) presented Bill No. 12,

An Act to amend The Municipal Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, The Municipal Act changes this year are for the most part of a minor nature involving the correction of deficiencies in specific provisions, however, there are a number of significant additions as well, and I would point these out for consideration of the members. We pro pose to clar ify the qu estion of the appointment . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, there seems to be so much noise in here, even with this earpiece I can't hear what the Minister is saying. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOUR LAY: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. We propose to clarify the question of the appointment of members for the Committee of an unincorporated village district. It is now made certain that where there are not enough persons appointed to fill the membership of such committees the council of the municipality in which the UVD lies shall appoint a 2567

WEtdnesday, 8 April, 1981 sufficient num ber of resident s to com� ·lete full membership of the committee. In a similar vein the question of the Estimates for such a committee, that is an Unincorporated Vil lage District Committee, are found to contain ·�rrors or deficiencies, the council of a municipality in which the district lies can approve the Estimates as r•resented or corrected and improve the imposition of the tax requi red for the di strict. This matter requir ed clarification. A new area of business activity is provided for in The Municipal Act.

Introduction of this concept will permit a portion of a municipality to be established by municipal by-law as a business improvement area in which the board of management will bn able to provide for the improvement, beautification, maintenance and of muni cipal ity-ownBd land, build ings on structur es within the busi ness improvement area and the promotion of such area as a busi ness or shopping area.

Such a by-law establishing a business improvement area will only be passed following notification of the business people involved in the proposed area wilh ample opportun ity being provided for objection to the passage of such a by-law. When such an area is established by by-law a board of management for the business improvement area is established and membership is provided for from the business community with a mBmber of council being part of the board . B oard :; will be established for a three-year period and the estimates of expenditure for the area will be submitted to the mun icipality.

The Muni cipality will then be in a position to levy for the amounts requir ed for expenditure in the business improvement area. These funds will then be available to the board of management in the business improvement area and such boards will not borrow money but will operate on the basis of funds levied on business people for expenditure in the business improvement area. There are provisions for annual reports, an auclit of the Busine ss Impr ovement Board . The remaining provisions deal with the nature of the charges for the busin ess improvement area and the ma nner of collection of such charges.

There is also provision for such an area to receive assistance by way of grants or loans from the province. This approach to business area revitalization and improvement has proven successful in other provinces across Canada and I feel it is an opportunity for revitalization of some of thll areas in rural Ma nitoba where an opportunity nxists for com bined effort in busi ness area improvement, beautification, and promotion. The legis lation will enable the business people being taxed l:o have a significant impact on business area activity.

It will further enable municipalities to co-operate actively with the busi ness commu nity by gi11ing that community flexibility in expenditure of tax do llars. The remaining sections of The Municipal Act deal primarily with matters of clarification. We wish to add the clarification provision where taxes are �,dded to a tax role the new provision will provide for a two­ month period following the addition of ta1ces during which no penalties will be added. Further amendments will make it clear that grants payable respecting Crown lands and institutional lands will be made by the Minister of Finance.

At one 2568 time certain payments were made directly by the un iversity out of its funds. Amendments to bring its provisions into line with changes made at last year's ses sion respe cting the rate of penaltie s for municipalities are proposed. These last two sections will be made retroactive to January 1, 19 81, in order to clarify the situation respecting municipal budgets. Mr. Speaker, I recommend this Bill No. 12 to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, we have examined the Bill and are awaiting the committee stage to make further comments on the idea of the busi ness improvement area. It is an interesting concept that may well be a very worthwhile concept. It would seem to me that what in effect it may be is a substitute for a different form of organ ization of the small busin esses in small comm uni ties and I'm thinking speci fically of Chambers of Commerce.

You may have a Chamber in a small town which may have only half of the businesses in a district participating and in this fashion you will be getting all of them, sort of in a forced way, to participate through the tax dollar in a busin ess improvement area.

That area, as I understand the principal of the Bill, would be taxed in addition to other areas of the particular town or municipality in order that the public buildings within it could be improved or kept better and also that that particular area could be promoted as a business or shopping area; and it seems to me that that has to be, to some extent at least, part of the function of the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce and the local chambers in the small towns and villages.

It's an interesting concept, we're not saying that we oppose it, and it may well be that it can be of benefit to the villages and towns and I'd be interested in hearing from the Chambers on it. I do have one area where certainly we have a little bit of concern, and that has to do with how you go about defeating one of these applications.

Under the proposed bill, as I un derstand it, if a busine ss improvement district is proposed, if one-third of the businesses in the district petition that this business improvement area not be proceeded with; then, providing that that one-third of businesses also have at least one-third of the assessment in the area, the business improvement proposal for the area will be defeated. That's an interesting concept; it's a Tory concept; it's a concept of government, not on the basis of numb ers, but on the basis of dollars, and we could give you an example of what might happen with, say, Eat on's .

You might have Eaton 's in a general improvement area with a hund red other businesses, and 99 businesses may well say, yes, we want the improvement area, or no, we don't want it, but they don't have one-third of the assessment and therefore the improvement area would go through because Eaton's has more than two-thirds of the assessment in the area. That's an interesting concept. -(lnt erjection)­ That's right. It wouldn't go through. Ninety-nine out of a hundr ed could oppose it. -(In terjection)- Oh yes. Because after all, Eaton's has the money. Why should some poor guy, why should some little

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 businessman have the right to tell a big businessman what should be going on in a business district? That reminds me of how we used to have election laws 10 0 years ago. It used to be that if you didn't have property then you didn't vote. And it used to be if you didn't have property, you couldn't be members of Chambers such as these. It used to be not that long ago that you couldn't vote in the City of Winnipeg if you didn't have property. And here we are, back again, tying a person's vote to his pocke tboo k. -(I nterjection)- Yes. The Member for Elmwood refers to it as ability-to-pay.

Well, that is a concept that we on this side certainly will be qu es tioning. Othe r than that, we are prepared, unless there are others on this side wishing to speak, to let it go to committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Memb er for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Ho nourable Memb er for Winnip eg Centre, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 35 - THE PLANNING ACT MR. GOURLAY presented Bill No. 35,

An Act to amend The Planning· Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 35 is primarily concerned with clarification of existing administrative procedures, the rewording of certain sections dealing with no tices and the application of additional provision of the Act to Northern Manitoba. The emphasis is placed on the intent of the Act that pla nning di stricts shall consis t of at least two municipalities or parts of municipalities.

This will also allow parts of Northern Manitoba to join with urban communities to form planning districts. There is a requirement that the zoning by-laws will generally conform with the policies set out in the development plan or basic planning statement. We wish to set out more clearly the requirements of notice with respect to certain types of amendments to a zoning by-law. There is an addition to provide that where a zoning by-law or planning scheme is repealed in its entirety and a new zoning by-law substituted therefor, a particular type of public notice is required.

Some sections are repea led· and su bstituted by new sections to cla rify the procedures of council in dealing with zoning by-laws after the public hearing. This

section sets out the action of council where it receives a copy of an objection file d with the Municipal Board. There is provision that variation orders or conditional use orders shall be reviewed by council prior to the expiry date of such orders. There is also provision for the requirment of notice to effected owners of land and the holding of a public hearing by a council in the case of. certain major subdivisions of land. A Certificate of Approval for subdivisions shall be renewed prior to its· expiry date. There is provision for the decision of the approving authority to be sent by registered mail to the applicant and to the council. One

section is repealed and replaced by new sections with respect to appeal provisions and the requirement of notice. Also, there is provision of Crown or public reserves and related agreements with the Crown, the municipality or the planning district. There is provision setting out the procedures of council and admin istration of by-laws affecting lands annexed from an adjacent municipality. Bill 35 now provides for substantially all of the Act to apply to Northern Manitoba.

There is provision for further delegation of authority to a local committee, comm ittee council or a person with respect to permits, variation and conditional use orders, as well as development agreements. Reference to the Director of Planning is deleted in favour of the Minister. Mr. Speaker, I recommend Bill No. 35 to members of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to mov e, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rossmere, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING BILL NO. 10 - THE BUILDERS' LIENS ACT MR.

SPEAKER: Bill No. 10, the Honourable Member for Logan. (Stands) The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the House and the honourable member would allow me to speak on Bill No. 10 and then let the debate stand in his name. MR. SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Speaker, in looking at this bill I want to say that subject to concerns for the small consumers, I do supp ort the intention of the government to improve the legislation to protect and ensure as far as possible the payment of wages to workers and to contractors and suppliers for their services and material in construction projects. Those people very often are the small businesses who we keep saying are the backbone of Mani toba's economy and it is very important that they be protected.

I do appreciate that this is what the government is endeavouring to do; also, the very technical nature of this type of legislation that I have some reservations, Mr. Speaker, about the exact wording of the bill. I have been advised that the wording is not such that it may necessarily stand the test in court. I wonder if the wording needs to be tightened up a little bit, enable to ensure that it will stand up in court, to give effect to the full intentions of the supporters of the bill, and of course, to achieve this purpose for which it was designed.

But my main purpose of speaking on the bill, is to express my concern for the small consumer. Most 2569

______________ W:.::....::ed ne sd ay, 8 April, 1981 consu mers in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, will not be aware of the legislation. People who contract to build apartment buildings or commercial building ;; or any new buildings will probably consult a la'll yer and therefore be informed of the legislation; but those people who decide to have a garage built, or a rec room installed, or a driveway or a fireplace 1nstalled , or a new roof for their dwe lling, for instance, will not be consulting a lawyer necessarily, and will not be aware of the legislation.

Each of these items I'v e suggested would ·�xceed a cost of $300.00 and make the homeowner sJbject to the provisions of the legislation, particularly it makes the small consumer, such as I'v e described, subjeCt to the penalty of paying an extra charge l)ver and above the value of the work and materials received and the price agreed to pay, because he was noi aware of the legislation. Perhaps the Minister is going to be able to assure me that these people will be exempted, that it's interesting, Mr.

Speaker, to note that sut•missions made concerning the legislation, people �rho have been seeking the legislation have been thm.e people concerned in construc tion; there bt!ing no represen tations by people purcha sing :>r using construction. I wonder if the bill has been re1ferred to the Depart ment of Consumer Affair s 11or their comments in respect to protect ing tile small consumer. I would recommend, Mr.

Speaker, that before this is passed finally that the government and the Law Reform Committee seek some input into the study from the consumer, before they proceed to the final reading of this bill, and it's been poinMd out to me that the concern here is not only for city people, for city dwellers, it also will include rural purchasers of the services, Mr. Speaker, such as farmers constructing or needing extra work done on their barns, and graineries and machinery builo ings and their water systems, Mr. Speaker.

So I think the basic remedy perhaps, would be to say that any home owner, any purchase 1r of the service should not be subject to penalties respecting lien rights by workers, suppliers and sub-trades for the first amount of money, for the first sal' $1 0, 000 or so paid to the general contractor. Perhaps this is something that can be looked at in Committee, but I wanted to express the concern now, Mr. Sp.�aker. MR. SPEAKER: It's agreed the debate shall stand in the name of the Honourable Member for Loqan. Bill No. 11.

The Honourable Member for Logan. (Stand) Bill No. 29, standing in the namE• of the Honourable Member for Rossmere. (Stand) Bill No. 34, standing in the na mE• of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. (Stand) Bill No. 36, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, the remaining bills in my name stand, please. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Governmomt Hous e Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources that 2570 Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House dissolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Emerson in the Chair for the Department of Education; and the Ho nourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the Committee to order and under Item 9, Page 99, Wildlife. (a)(l) - the Member for Rup.ertsland. MR.

HARVEY BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have a number of concerns in the area of Wildlife and perhaps we can discuss them in general terms under the first item as we have done in the past and proceed exp.editiously through the items. One of the concerns is with respect to the Wild Fur Deve lo pment Program, which was cost-sh ared between the Provincial Government and the Department of Indi an Affair s and No rthern Development. I would ask the Minister in view of the fact that this agreement has terminated at the end of the fiscal year 1980.

Is the Minister doing anything in terms of replacing it or doing anything in that nature; in terms of assisting trapp.ers as this program was assisting them; in terms of providing grants to trapp ers and buildin g central base ca mps and financing the cutting of access trails from settlements to main trapping areas, assisting the trappers through fur schools and also assisting them in improving their general trapping skills and income.

Also, I believe, an important function of the program was to try to assist trappers in establishing a better system of communication so that there would be a central communication area perhaps in a general trap line zone, so that trappers would have the opportunity of being able to communic ate with the outside world in case of sickness or accident. So, I would ask the Minister, just generally, if he is kn owledgeable about this and if he is considering any new initiatives in that area in this fiscal year that we're considering? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I could perhaps indicate to the honourable member that this is a particular aspect of our Wildlife Program, as I believe the honourable mem ber is aware, we have co­ operated with the Federal Government under the Nor thern Deve lo pment Agreem ent, Wild Fur Management Development Program, general aims of course being to create the optimum development of Manitoba Wild Fur Resources, specifically, to do some of the things that the honourable members request to improve wetland habitat; to increase stocks of fur bearers available for harvest; develop and implement the most humane possible methods of taking wild fur bearers and the department has been a contributor to the main trapping question over the last num ber of years.

I might, by way of information, just indicate to the honourable member that a long awaited report on that subject matter has

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 been released, I believe earlier this spring and that there is some interest being expressed by particularly western provinces that there should be an effort made to move with some uniformity in perhaps adoption of certain of the recommendations. I don't have the report before me so I should not take the honourable members of the committee too far down that particular line. The honourable member is asking for specific programs that involve trapping, the supplementary funding of some 15 0,000 from the Department of Indian Affairs during 1981 is included in the program for the coming year.

We anticipate they will be cost­ sharing the '81- '82 program under DREE up to a considerably la rger amount of mone y in the neighbourhood of $.5 million dollars. I take it that we are in the process of negotiating that with the federal officials, but for the member's information and through the member and to those interested or involved in the fur trapping industry, I think the dedication, or at least the willingness to cost-share in a program of upwards to $.5 million dollars in an important industry to many people, but still on the scale of other indu stries in the province, not that large.

The members have the annual report before them. The annual fur harvest this year was in the neighbourhood of somewhat in excess of $10 million. It is an important economic contribution, however, to some of the people involved, and of cou rse particularly some of our Northern people and our Native people. Again, if I can just outline in a general way, and then I'll be happy to try to answer some more specific questions, the terms of policy development in this area of the department. We are currently reviewing pol icies and practices to define any anomalies and restructure where needed.

We have again, no particular prior disposition on the part of the department, we don't come to the problem with fixed positions. We have been holding a number of meetings during mid-Janua ry to mid-March. These meetings have involved some of the registered trap line people at Swan River, The Pas, Thompson, Lynn Lake, Island Lake and Winnipeg. Another aspect of this was holding meetings with open area trappers at Fisher Branch, Portage Ia Prairie, Brandon, Dauphin, Swan River, The Pas, Morden, Winnipeg, Marchand.

Another aspect of it was holding meetings with the private sector in such places as Dauphin, Brandon, The Pas, Thompson and Winnipeg. The department is also receiving advice, unsolicited or solicited from well over 300 individuals, my notes inform me. This includes, of course, from the 200 trappers and the executive of the Manitoba Registered Trappers Association. We anticipate that out of all of this activity of meeting with people that staff feels they will be in a position to recommend some fundamental policy changes to me on or about April 1s t.

I remind staff that that date is just about here, or we've passed it by a week or two. We would hope that would be - I think wha t I am trying to demons trate to the committee is that the department and the staff have obviously taken the time to go into the field as it were, to meet with the people directly involved in the industry and I want to compliment the staff for their 2571 efforts in this area. It's a policy direction that I believe will be perceived and an action throughout the department as we deal with different users.

Yesterday and last evening we were discussing the same kind of steps and procedures that we felt were necessary in the ongoing development of a fisheries policy in meeting the individual fisheries needs and they are distinct from lake to lake. Mr. Chairman, I am repeating myself. Perhaps just a few fur facts for the honourable members' further informa tion. In 19 79-80 approxi mately 16 ,000 trapping licences were sold, and 13 ,000 open area. Pardon me, I take it that this is the breakdown; 13 ,000 in open area or block areas; 3,000 of the licensees were on registered trap lines.

The value of the fur crop has already indicated in the order of some $9.6 million, an all-time record in spite of a general price decline for wild furs. The all-time record beaver harvest of 68,000 pelts, shade s of yesteryear when the Hudson's Bay Company was so heavily involved in the beaver fur trade, and of course still are, but I find that a rather amazing little bit of information to myself that 68,000 beaver pelts, approximately 25 percent above the previous record, were harvested in the Province of Manitoba.

Assuming that the harvesting at these levels is being monitored by the branch, that concern is being expressed for providing a sustained yield to allow this kind of harvesting, but certainly one can begin to appreciate that kind of activity in the fur business makes its contribution to the well-being of the citizens of Manitoa. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honour able Memb er for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: In the area of consultation with trappers, Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister can indicate if there has been any direction on his part to the department to be more vigilant, I suppose, in informing trappers of the changes in seasons. There seems to have been some confusion this past year in some quarters at least over changes that were made in the seasons and the way in which the trappers were operating in some areas. I think there was a letter which was sent by the Leader of the Opposition to the Minister regarding a trapper in the Beaconia area of Manitoba who, as an example, accidentally trapped a fur bearer out of season.

In previous years if this sort thing happened they were authorized to sell such a pelt that was accidently caught if they informed the department by way of the issuance of a permit. These however, in this case, were confiscated from him and the government apparently sold the pelts or whatever and the trapper in any case is out the value of the pelts. I think it is probably not a real serious problem but there seems to be some confusion.

I am wondering if the Minister is taking any actions to ensure that trappers are well informed, well in advance of any changes to the seasons and in fact the trappers, besides being informed, are consulted so public servants are not making chang es which may not be in the best interests of those that are in the field of making their income from trapping, and I think it would only be logical that trappers would have some useful and relevant advice to give to the department in terms of establishing seasons. Perhaps some kind of advisory committee or whatever, could be set up much like

Wed nesday, 8 April, 1981 the licensing; or an advisory committee in th·� area of fisheries could be establ ished to as sist the department in establishing seasons which are not only for the benefit of their resource but also for the benefit of the users of the resource. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, the staff inform� me that the Manitoba Trappers' Association as represented by their executive, were made very much aware of any and all regulation changes that we1·e being introduced during this last year, and it's a practice that I know will continue and I accept the advice from the honourable member that this ought to be the case. 1 believe the honourable member would aJJpreciate that without bringing back the subject matter that we discussed at some length in some of the earlier hours of the discussion of my Estimates, that of the enforcement image of the department, th;:,t in this area again, fur trapping with the higher prices being paid, there is the inclination of more and more people to want to trap, and perhaps in sorne cases it's a matter too of luring the casual trapper into the business, who is not that kno wledgable or perhaps not that concerned about the ongoing viabilrty of the resource.

As I'd like to believe at present when )IOU have people who are obviously interested in the longer term view of their industry, who are active members of an association that represents the intere�:ts of the fur trapping business in Manitoba, and whom we have cordial relations with, I certainly will ac:cept the advic e from the Memb er for Rup ertsland and encourage senior staff people to carry on with the ongoing meetings with them and par ticularly in the area of introduction of new rules to the gam,�. 1 think in the broadest possible dissemination of information it's necessary and ought to be put in the hands of the general public, or the persons involved in the business of trapping, in a clear and easily under stood way.

I appreciate that we may n1Jt always succeed in doing that, and we will of cour� e accept the good advice from members of the com mittee or the trappers involved, as to how to improvr� on that from time to time. I can indicate to you that even in my short period of being responsible for the ministry of Natural Resources, that we had a situation arise in the Gypsumville area, I believe, where there �a s some misund erstanding, some difficulty with respE>et to the lynx season. The Honourable Member tor Sl:. George brought that to my attention in the House. I think the Honourable Member for St.

George would have to agree that the department acted with dispatch. A delegation was received in the office and I_ believe the issue was resolved in a reasonably, satrsfactory manner; satisfactory to the resource managnrs of the department and satisfactory to the har ve�:ters, the trappers themselves. MR. BOSTROM: I thank the Minister tor hi:; answer, Mr. Chairman, and to go on a slightly related topic. I think that in terms of the increasing prices of furs and the widely ranging prices of furs, I wonder if the Minister would be looking at reviewing the royalty rates that are in effect for fur pelts.

I noticed on Page 121 of his Annual Report that the royalty rates seem to be out of whack with what are now experienced in the trade as related to the :;ale price of furs. the market value of furs. 2572 For example, a bear pelt here just as an example is a S-cent royalty and a lynx pelt is a 50-cent royalty and a beaver pelt is a 75-cent royalty. Mr. Chairman, 1 think these rates were probably established at a time when fur pelts were a much different market value than they are now.

Lynx in the last few years as the Minister may be aware has been reaching rather exorbitant levels and if you compare a 50-cent royalty rate on a $700 pelt as compared to a 75-cent rate on a beaver pelt, it may be worth $1 0.00, certainly the portions appear to be out of whack. Maybe the method of collection of royalties is something which should be reviewed. There may be some more central ized system that could be developed. I would recommend that to the Minister as an area that could be considered by him perhaps as an area of new initiative and one which the department could be looked at.

Rather than having a per pelt rate, perhaps there should be some system of a percentage royalty tying it to the market price, centralizing it at the market level where the pelts are sold rather than taking it off at the buyer level in the field as it is commonly done. Mr. Chairman, perhaps I'll let the Minister respond to that. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, again the honourable member is anticipating precisely the kind of activity that the department is undertaking at the present time, that is reviewing the royalty structure for the various furs that are harvested in Manitoba.

The examples that he cites, I imagine, are some of the very kind of things we are looking at in terms of taking some of the anomal ies out. But I mus t ackno wledge to the honourable member that I'm having some a little difficulty to readjusting myself to this department having come from Government Services where they tend to take a much harsher commercial attitude towards full recovery. If the Deputy Minister from Government Services provides me with a car or space, he wants to reocover all those dollars that are charged to us in that manner.

We do not try to equate royalty to covering the costs of running the fur division or we do not equate the royalties on wild rice to pay for the entire operations of the wild rice division of the department. I find this department to take a far more compa ssionate and generous attitude and quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, I don't mind placing it on the record that it's one of the pleasures of working in this department and with a staff that has that attitude.

We do believe that there is an opportunity to, in a fair way, equate prices perhaps more closely to the royalties that are charged , although the member will be the first to acknowledge that in the fur trade business, since the day that Prince Rupert first granted a charter somewhere along these lands, they have fluctuated vastly as the fashion saloons of Paris and other places, London, dictate the style that very often has a very immediate and direct impact upon the price of the particular furs that are rn demand, so the department will always have some difficulty at any given time, to be somewhat out of whack with the royalty rela tive to the then commercial value of the pelt being harvested.

MR. DE PUTY CHA IRM AN: The Memb er for Rupertsland.

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not in any way suggesting that the department should try to tax the trapper to the point where they would pay for all the activities of the wild life branch of the department, since the wildlife branch naturally performs many functions and relates to many wildlife groups within the province. There's the hunters and people who simply enjoy the resource as something of aesthetic value and beauty in our province, so there's no suggestion made that the royalties should be reviewed in that sense.

I think in terms of the equity involved, there has been cases where very poor quality beaver pelts may be selling for $1. 00 and the royalty rate on that pelt is 75 cents,

whereas someone who is lucky enough to have trapped a lynx or a bobcat may be selling it for several hundr ed dollars and the royalty rate on that is 50 cents. So that's the kind of inequities I'm talking about and what the department should be looking at in terms of reviewing those and coming up with a more equitable system. One other thing which the Minister alluded to in one of his comments, Mr. Chairman, was the development of more humane methods of trapping. That is something which has been a concern of the department I know, and one which the department has been making some efforts at resolving.

I would hope that this is continuing and I would ask the Minister what efforts are being made and proposed; and what methods are proposed to be taken to continue to test new humane traps and trapping techniques under field conditions or on experimental trap lines; and what efforts are being made to develop new humane traps? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm advised again by Mr. Goulden, the Director of the Wildlife Division, that the department is making major efforts in this direction.

We are experimenting with a new trap line which will be designated for testing out various methods, equipment for the humane trapping of animals. We of course will continue to carry on in the mechanical and laboratory testing of new devices, assistance to inventors of humane traps. We have a fund, not a very large fund, but money set aside to assist any entrepreneural innovative person that believes that he can build a better mouse trap or build a better trap generally.

As I already mentioned in these Estimates, the expansion of an experimental trap line system for field testing of the new inventions and new techniques is included in the program for the coming year, and of course continuation and expansion of the educational efforts for the general public. Mr. Chairman, I think in all, and I say this with little cred it to me, but certainly to that of my predecessors which incl udes the Honourable Memb er for Rupe rtsland and of cou rse the department and staff mem bers involv ed, that Manitoba continues to be a national leader in the humane trapping field. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I certainly commend and congratula te the department for continuing in that area of development and experimentation. I tend to note a seem ingly less vocal concern in that area in recent years than a few years ago and I am not quite sure what the reason for that is. There appeared to be quite a very effective program and protest, if you want to call it that, several years ago, and I haven't noted that to be quite as prevalent in the last couple of years.

I am wondering if there have been some very specific developments that have assisted in placating some of the protesters, if you will, in terms of satisfying some of the concerns of people who had some very real concerns in this area. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just by way of further information, there is a Canadian Association for Humane Trapping in existence that tends to, I think, and has obviously - I concur with the member's comments - brought a heightened level of concern and obviou sly has been instrumental in the employment of more and more humane methods of trapping as they become available to us.

I would have to indicate that I think that overall effort, and it's an across Canada effort, we are participants in the assoc iation that I just mentioned, we are mem bers of the federal-provi ncial committee for humane trapping, and we believe that this effort is paying off. I should indicate to the honourable member that I find the same degree of interest being expressed by some of my fellow Ministers in other provinces.

There is a concern that some of these items don't get proper attention when we meet in the larger council of Resource Minister's meetings, that the di scussions that take place during those meetings generally fall into some of the major concerns of environment, pollution and so forth and that the smaller sections of concern such as trapping and the fur industry generally doesn't receive the kind of attention that it deserves. So for that reason, the initiation I must say of my colleague, the Minister from Alberta, Mr.

Miller, I believe is his name, has called for a conference to be held in Edmonton, I believe at the mid or latter part of May to deal specifically as one of the lead agenda items with the question of humane trapping. There is a concern, I believe, that we ought to act with some degree of unison before we effect any sudden or radical changes. There is some concern, I believe, that is being voiced under pressure in British Columbia.

In British Columbia there appears to be currently the highest level of concern being expressed on the question of humane trapping, and there is just a little bit of concern that a province may move in a very rapid or radical way into a position that then becomes very questionable from .the point of view of allowing the trappers that are involved in the business, the necessary time to make the adjustments with respect to equipment, and that we would then nonetheless be under the pressure, however, if one jurisdiction moved in a particular way, that other provinces would be forced by local pressure groups to follow suit when perhaps the necessary time, or the necessary thought hadn't been given to the introduction of these programs.

MR. BOSTROM: One final question, on my part, Mr. Chairman, and that's related to the introduction of the new Wildl ife Act and it is a concern I raised at the time the Act was passed and it is relating to the provision in the Act which requires hun ters to acquire written permission from land owners before going on the land. I indicated that while I agreed with this move that there may be prob lems in its implementation if conservation officers were over 2573

Wec)Jnesday , 8 April, 1981 zealous in their prosecution and charging of people that were found on private land withe ut the necessary written permission. I wonder if the Minister could report to us on the first year's experience in this regard, and if they have been able to work out the pitfalls that maf befall those that are over zealous in the applicatior of this thing. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I can, on the advice given to me by my staff, but also as an individual that lives and resides in an area that i!. under considerable hunting pressure in the south Interlake, that we have had what we believe to be a single success in the introduction of this relatively new part of The Wildlife Act. I correct the honourable member that written permission is not required, verbal permi!;sion is accepted; and there has been, and that has been, I think by design and deli berately; I assL me my predecessor discussed this with Mr.

Ernie Ps kla who is responsible for the enforcement aspects of The Wildlif e Act, to use just an extra dose of good common sense in its application, particularly in its first year. We have not found it necessary teo pursue with a particularly heavy hand in the enforcement of this aspect of the Act.

We have received a high degree of acceptance both by farmers, the land owner, the property owner, and the hunter>, and I have had personal commendations made to me about this change in The Wildlife Act that I think the staff can take a lot of credit for, and certainly I, as Minister, am very pleased to see that the change has been introduc ed with so little disruption and so little antagonism, and generally perhaps a succnss level considerably higher than even we could have hoped for. I must indicate that the pressure is th ere that similar regulations apply to Crown land an,j leased land.

I should not say Crown land, leased land, and principally of course agricultural leased land and we are taking that under advisement at this time. I would have to indicate to honourable members that there are no immediate plans to make fu rther ammendments to the Act during the course of this session, but certainly I must indicate to honourable members, I think it was only several weeks ago that I had a delegation in, I believe from the Honourable Memb er for Ste.

Rose's constituency, that while complimenting the department on this 1= articular change in the Act the request was for whether or not some means co uldn't be found, althOL gh they recognized the different status that the leased land has in law and in practice, but certainly would like to see some extension of this principle appli ed to leased lands as well as it now applies to Crown lands. MR. DEPUTY CH AIRMAN, Albert l>riedger (Emerson): The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.

R. (Pete) ADAM: Yes, on that topi :, there's a matter that I wanted to raise as well because while I approved the changes that were made last year insofar as private land is concerned, I do Bee some problems with regard to leased land, particularly lor big game hunting. Where the hunting season usually opens alter the grazing season, Mr.

Chairman, normally the hunting season lor deer and big game 2574 usually comes after the grazing season is over and all the cattle have been moved out of these Crown lands and put into winter confinement or on winter feed, and we lind now that some people who are leasing land are even posting their Crown land.

With the policy in addition of selling hundr eds of thousands of acres of Crown land, it seems to me that sooner or later you 're going to run into a problem of selling big game licences, If you're selling off Crown land you 're thinkin g of bringing in restrictions on hunting on Crown land without a permission, and it seems to me that what you are setting up is private hunting areas. It seems to me that we're going to run into problems. I am getting some complaints at the present time from people who say, where are we supp osed to hunt? They sell us a licence and where are we su pposed to hunt?

Everything is posted -(Int erjection)- well, you don't have to post it any more, but there are some Crown lands being posted. It seems to me that this should not be allo wed at the present time, that it should be stipulated when a lease is given out, it's only a privilege that's being given to someone to use Crown land and by putting "No Hunting" signs or "No Trespassing" signs on, I can understand before the season there may be some problems where people go in and there may be livestock grazing on a particular

section of land or a quarter

section of land, and where people are going in there ahead of season, certainly that should not be permitted, it would be illegal to hunt out of season in any event. But I do see here where there could be a problem if we continue on with this program of allocating land service, sel ling off Crown lands, sooner or later you're going to have a lot of area where nobody will be able to hunt and you're going to have problems with people wanting to go out and big game hunt. Another area that I wanted to talk about, and I wrote to the Minister about it, has to do with loss of livestock shot during hunting sea son.

I have commun icated with the Minister and I would have hoped to have had a reply by now. However, I have not received a reply. The particular situation that I want to discuss is a cow that was shot during the hunting season up in the Winnipegosis area. The incident was reported to the RCMP - the compensation may have been paid up to this point in time, I don't know, but at least I have not had a reply from the Minister in that regard - the incident was reported to the RCMP and their investigation was not conclusive.

The investigation ended with negative results according to a letter that I received from the RCMP. They go on to describe the animal shot; they could not even determine lor certain where it was shot, if it had been shot in the forehead or not. However, they do suggest that there is a lot of nightlighting but on those spe culations, the department has refused to pay compensation and it seems to me that this is surely, in my opinion, unjust, because I now have photos that I can show the Minister that have been sent to me. I believe that the RCMP perhaps did take photographs as well.

The animal was shot approximately 30 feet from the bush, facing that bush, and it seems to me - I'm not a nightlighter and I don't know too much about it - but it seems to me that if you're doing any nightlighting, it seems to me that you'd be on

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 the open side, you wouldn't be nightlighting from the bush in my opinion. You wouldn't be coming through a bush trying to sneak up on animals, on game or deer. If some person who was breaking the law and who was nightlighting, it seems to me would drive in the open side of the field and he'd scan with his lights towards the bush to see if there was not any game in the bush or on the edge of the bush. That is the way I would think that these people operate. As I say, I'm not an expert on this, but it seems to me very very unlik ely that this animal would be shot by a nightlighter.

I'm told that the distance from that animal which is facing the bush, it's the back of the animal that we see now, -( Interjection)- it's a roan Hereford animal accord ing to the description that I have but the distance is ten steps from the bush and it seems to me that the department has refused to pay compensation to this farmer, just on the speculation that it may have been shot by nightlighters. There is no proof of any kind. I have here a letter that I can make a copy of - the Minister has already had a report I am sure of that - that he has had a report from the RCMP.

The information, I suppose, would be probably identical or very much similar to what the report has been. Mr. Chairman, to read some of the excerpts of this letter, "The distance from the dead cow to the bush is ten steps, or approximately three feet to the step would be about 30 feet. It is lying right on the road that runs along the bush. This road runs up to the end of our pasture and there is no road to come back." Well, he says: How can the RCM P prove that the cow was shot at night?

Well, they have not proven that; they have denied that; they said that they were not able to determine how the animal was shot or even where it was shot. But the gentleman in question is having problems with receiving compensation for the animal which was shot during the hunting season, and I wonder if the Minister would be good enough to respond to my correspondence, or at least give us some information that we can transmit to this gentleman. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member raises a numb er of issues before dealing with some of these specific ones that he raises and there were three or four that he raised here under this general subject. I should want to read into the record that in the last year that we have the figures for hunter kill ed livestock claims did continue to decline. We've had five claims in 1980. There is, and I agree with the honourable member, a concern as to the verification that livestock death or injuries from hunters and not vandals or poachers or rustlers is a problem area.

I think, we can be reasonably proud of the fact that, in general, hunter safety in 19 80 Manitoba experienced the lowest numb er of firearm accidents. Since, 19 64, three fatal accidents although only one was associated with legal hunting. Now, Mr. Chairman, the honourable memb er raised the question of the difficulty in receiving compensation where an animal is found to be dead.

The Act as it currently stands allo ws the department to pay compensation only if the anima l has been accidentally shot during season, during a Big Game season in that area and any other reasons for livestock loss, such as he describes by illegal activity, is not technically covered by the Act.

I'm advised that this is of concern to the department; that they are reassessing their position in this matter and I think I can indicate to the honourable member that, certainly as a livesto..:k producer myself, although fortunately I haven't lost any great numb er of cattle, although I have lost an animal myself under what I would describe similar circumstances, there's always a concern though that when a death is involved and nobody is precisely sure of how it happened that perhaps the butler did it, Mr. Adam.

But, there is a problem to the department to determine, under the present rules that we operate under, and again staff advises me that we are aware of that. We will take a very hard look at seeing whether or not that couldn't be changed or improved. I want to indicate to the honourable member that if he's referring to a specific case, as he did in reading portions of a letter into the record, that if it is a particular case that he has brought to the attention of the depart ment, I belie ve, from a Mr.

Slo vorsky?that that case has not been closed as far as the department is conc erned and they are continuing to review the matter. We may have not quite com munica ted enough to the honour able member for him to be aware of it but I do now indicate to him that is the case.

The earlier question that the honourable member rose with respect to the possible effects or the de cline of hunting land being available with the increase in private holdings, it would be my hope and it's certainly the philosophy of the Act and the changes to the Wildlife Act, that if we can as a result of the changes, particularly that change that calls for permission to be granted by the land- owner, property owner, prior to the hunting being allo wed on the property, should - and I say should, we will, of course, be monitoring it - should have the effect of eventually encouraging more private lands to be available to the sportsman in Manitoba.

It's the problem, you know, the posting of lands, the denial of hunting on lands has come about, of course, the pressure for that has come about over the years because of the few bad apples, the few irresponsible hunters that have caused difficulties to the property owner and that has, over the years, developed a degree of animosity that in many instances the owners, the farmers only recourse was to prohibit all hunting and post his lands, which he's always been able to do this, as private lands.

We are hopeful that with the change in the Act that trend can be reversed and it's certainly the goal of the department to encourage that reversal, quite aside from whether it's Crown or private held land that these kind of changes to the Act will in fact improve the overall hunt er and land owner relationship; bring it to a more harmonious level.

If that is the case, if we are successful in doing that, I would susp ect that the expectations of the depart ment are reasonab le that ind ividual land owners will feel or think twice about the necessity of posting even their current private holdings of land if they have that control mechanism of being able to deny or permit hunting activity to take place on their land. Mr. Chairman, I think that covers most of the areas raised by the honourable member. The one area that I didn't touch on in response to him was the more tricky business of attempting to have this 2575

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 amendment to the Wild life Act apply to Crow1 lands. I agree with some of the honourable mem bers comments. I think he also agrees with me tl1at it is not quite that easy to apply the rules in the same way. There's provision in the Act to allow us to work toward that direction and I'm advised by senior staff that is being looked at, certainly again from my personal point of view, I will be encoura� 1ing the department to keep at it and hopefully come up with some reasonable solution to that problem. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for 'lirden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Thank y c,u , Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to put this question. I hope it's within the right pages regarding some Crown land that the Government bought and leased to Ducks Unlimited. I realize, Mr. Chairman, the Minister is reasonably new in that and if it's not on his desk or on the back burner it's very close to there and I would just like to hope that I could influence some of my thoughts and I'm speak ing now of As!;iniboine Valley land, and I could name the people, Taylors. who I am sure I can vouch for are treml!ndously good land managers.

This half section, a year or two ago, certa1nly they got the permission of the municipality to sell t. It was sold to the government rather quickly or wmeone there may have bought it, and the name I mention are big cattle men and in dry weather they would so very much like to have the workings of that land. I do have to report, it's very subject to flooding but they work around it and that's the very point, Ducks Unlimited have it leased and for three years t's been nothing but a real mess of thistles.

If you're a good land manager downstream to it, you must appreciate you're going to have a lot of thistles from that and while I'm sur e your colleague, the Minister of Agricult ure is more up on it than I am, it is a problem. These people would buy a big cat and dilte seven miles to that Assiniboine Valley, Mr. Chairman, you can appreciate what the cost was to do that, they never came to the Provincial or Federal ··reasury. This is land right in the heart of what they �ave got and I would hope that with your Minister, Mr.

Chairman - and I can't think of a more capable Minister to influence - would try to influence Ducks Unlimited to lease the more flatland of that chunk and it would certainly help those people out. It would help the municipality out because some of that goes back on the taxroll - and if there's any thing we're lacking in rural Manitoba it's a tax base as everything gets higher - and I think I just warn through you , Mr.

Chairman, that we should not be moving in that field to take revenue-bearing land, be it Ducks Unlimited or whoever wants it, bHcause it seems to me if you talk to an environmentalist the whole theme is environment - and it doesr 't matter what ind ustry they' re defeat ing and Ducks Unlimited I might say put a dam on my own farm, they contribute a lot; but if they were want1ng some of my fertile land, well that would be a different ballgame.

So I think I'm just warning the Minister if he hasn't seen the problem. it's going to come before some of his staff and I'm certainly familiar with it <1nd I feel very sympathetic to the Taylors at Oak LHke. They have about 12 00 acres, I believe in the val ey and if 2576 you had a half

section with nothing but thistles in amongst that, how it would annoy you. So I just say they don't want the whole thing to work, but they do want that which is flat and I could go at quite length with Ducks Unlimited, put a big bump there, fill it in and three weeks later somebody happens to come along and they were just pumping it out of the river and it was running right back into the river. They'd have been pumping it yet if somebody hadn't told them really it was going right back where it comes from. It just simply broke away and let it go.

So I just want it to be on record that this is one of my constituent's problems that I feel is real and at the moment I'm not sure that he's getting as fair a treatment as hopefully and I do appreciate leases are leases, agreements are agreements but again, Mr. Chairman, through you I ju st wou ld hope your Minister would influence a lit11e bit of moderation there with a fe eling. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, we have taken note of the particular prob lem that the Honourable Member for Virden brings to our attention.

I am not personally familiar with the situation. I will anticipate receiving some further notice from the member or from the persons directly involved. It seems to me though that there are, even just from the description that the honourable members gives to us, that there are several situations here. He dwelled to some extent on the weed problem and I can appreciate that to a go od grain farming operation that is a problem and if he husbands his land well, he's concerned about that.

But there is currently a responsibility that the municipality has throughout the province, all municip alities have throughout the Province of Manitoba, under The Noxious Week Act to control un desirable weed growth and that Act has teeth to it, and I know it is applied in many instances. If the lando wner isn't prepared to co-operate or the lessee isn't prepared to co-operate, the municipality is entirely within their rights to cut the weeds down, or to control the weeds by whatever means is necessary, and then charge it directly to the taxes of the person that is deemed to be the guilty party.

I must say that also includes, I suppo se the government or the Crown, if this is the case. We would have to pay for the removal and the control of those weeds. That may be part of the solution to the problem. With respect to the possibility of sale of that land back to the owners, I would have to advise - and the member probably knows better than I do - that the land is subject to very substantial flooding, I'm told, three out of five or three out of four years, and that may not be what the honourable member is request ing. But, Mr.

Chairman, I ind icate to the honourable member that when that problem arrives on our desk, it will receive the kind of attention that all problems brought to me from any part of the Province of Manitoba deserve from time to time. MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Chairman, just to finish it up, that same land your predecessor allo wed them to cut hay on that and I can say they very much

Wednesday, 8 April, 1981 appreciated getting the right to cut hay, and what he is wanting is to put some of that in grain, not it all, and all would benefit. But I know Ducks Unlimited, they want to protect for miles if they can and that's there thing. In any case I thank the Minister through you , Mr. Chairman, for that consideration. If he wants help in making that further decision, I'll certainly be willing to help. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM: Yes, to complete my comments on the particular situation I raised with the Minister, it would appear that the department is where there isn't a glaring conclusion that the animal has been shot accidentally, that the department is siding against the person who lost the animaL In this case it seems to me that it's almost clear that the animal was shot accidentally but the paragraphs that I received from the RCMP dealing with it is, I wrote to them to enquire what their investigation that determined and the investigation at our point ended with negative results.

In the second paragraph it says, "the cow belonging to Mr. Sloworsky had been shot during hunting season. The cow being a Hereford shorthorn, approximately 1, 300 pounds, roan in colour, appeared to have been shot in the hea d". No w again they are unab le to determine whether it had been shot in the head, or elsewhere; it appeared to have been shot in the head. Another paragraph again, "at the time they were also advised that the loss of the cow may have been shot from nightlighters, however, I cannot say for certain", again they're inconclusive of how the animal was shot. But, Mr.

Chairman, if somebody was nightlighting that cow or shot that cow, they'd have to be between the bush and the animal if it had been shot in the head and there's a 30-foot space there. A vehicle would have to be, if they are travelling with a vehicle, would have to be between the bush and the animal, then surely it would have been probably a dis tance of 10 , 15, 20 feet at the most. Surely nobody would mistake an animal, a deer for a cow at that distance. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to allow the member to proceed on this very interesting and graphic description of how that cow may have come to an untimely end. But my experience in driving, very often through the cattle late at night when they're on pasture, is that that animal could have been heading in the direction for the bush, could have been alerted by the light and turned around and got shot right between the eyes, and then flung itself to get away from its assailant back in the direction as the animal now is lying, heading towards the bush. Mr.

Chairman, I'm simply trying to illustrate in an equally graphic way all the possibilities that are there as to precisely how that animal met its maker, or managed to avoid the packer. But Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the member's concern but it cannot be, just because of the pictures that he has, stated for certain that animal was not the victim of somebody illegally nightlighting. In fact, my staff kind of indicates, by looking at the pictures that the member has kindly presented us with, that it rather is the classic kind of setting for 2sn the nightlighting operation.

The road being on this side, an animal just outside of the bush area being attracted to the light, and the shooting could well have occurred from the road as most instances of nightlighting under these circumstances occur. The case to be made that the animal, simply because it was positioned in a certain way in its final repose, is not clear enough evidence that I can accept, Mr. Chairman, - and this is not a courtroom, I acknowledge, but I would have to say that that's the case. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:30 having arrived, I move that committee rise for Private Members' Hour. Committee rise.

SUPPL V - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Albert Driedger (Emerson): I call the commi ttee to order. For consideration of committee, Page 48, Department of Educat ion, Resolution 53, Item 4, Program Development and Support Services, (a)(1 ). The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I assume that we're now on Curriculum Section. MR. CHAIRMAN: Division Administration - pass; (1) - pass; (2) - pass; (a) - pass; (b)(1) - pass. The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to raise a matter with the Chairman which has caused some consternation in educational circles, and it revolves around the development of a curriculum framework for a credit course for Manitoba students in Grades 11 and 12. It's called, in outline, "Lifestyle Studies". The Minister will be familiar with this, and it was made public I supp ose, a num ber of days ago through an

article in the Free Press, possibly on the weekend. But I want to raise this with the Minister because of the fact that a large numb er of people were involved in the development of this course. Then after working diligently over a period of time - I'm not sure how many months or years were put into this program - but all of a sudden the Minister has in effect, what shall I say, scuttled the course or put it on the back burner, or rejected it. Now I suppose that the Minister will argue that what he did was make a suggestion as to the proper place for the course, which is one step short of the waste basket.

But the people involved in the course I think are understandably disappointed, dissatisfied and disgruntled with what the Minister has done. This project apparently was given - I will now refer to a sort of brief summa ry of the background of this cou rse. I'm looking at a curriculum guide or framework for the Lifestyle Studies and I'll just read the

preamble which says, "In response to briefs presented to it by the Manitoba Teachers Society, the Curriculum Policy Review Council recommended to the Minister of Education that a cou rse on Lifestyle Stud ies be developed for use in Manitoba schools. The recommendation was accepted by the Minister, and subsequently Mr. Murray Smith of St. John's High School in Winnipeg School Division No. 1 was com missioned to prepare a curricu lum framework for a course in Lifestyle Stud ies. The

Wed nesday, 8 April, 1981 ------------------------------ attached curriculum framework has been a�·proved by the Curriculum Policy Review Council, and a task force has been established to prepare a curriculum guide utilizing this material. It is anticipated that the curriculum guide will be ready for pilot use in the fall of 19 81. In the meantime, copies of the framework are available to interested parties who wish to examine the proposal with a view to participating in the pilot program". Well, Mr.

Chairman, that's the background and I think you can see immediately that there wHs input into this particular project by teachers, trustl!es and Department of Education officials; the MTS was involved and people who work for Winnipeg School Division No. 1, and so on, so there was a gmat deal of effort put into the course. Apparently the course was then passed along and was given higher and higher app rovals and greater and greater endorsement, until it finally arrived at the Minister's doorstep.

Then the Minister either overreacted to the material - I'm now surmising - or he apparently took advice from an organization call ·�d The Women's Institute. I'm not familiar with The Women's Institute, but it's described in the Free Press as a rural, non-educational organization. He apparently acceded to their request to either scrap the course, or redesign it for junior high. No w if you look at the course guidelin e, Mr. Chairman, you can see that it is not the kind of program which would be suitable for junior high.

It appears to be sophisticated to a degree, in the sense that it would require I think the understanding and comprehension of people who are betweE'n ages, shall we say, of 16 and 18 and older. But when one is dealing with young juveniles who are say , 13 and 14 and 15 , it would seem to be too advanced. I think the Minister would agree that certain subjects are more appropriate to certain age levels.

I know from my own experience that when one attempts to teach government or talk about politics, there is a ready and willing ear at the senior high level, but at junior high it seems that young students are not that interested in affairs of state or the government. Mr. Chairman, I was once given the assignment, which you may have had in your day, of speaking on Remembrance Day to an elementary school.

That was quite a challenge, standing in a school auditorium in an element ary school, children all around, starting in the front in grade 1 a1 1d going back up to the big kids in grade 6, and trying to explain to them what go vernment is, or wha t patriotism is, or what war is, or what sacrifice is. I don't kn ow how much of a message can be explained to children who are that young.

After getting this assignment for a couple of years, I think I resolved the problem as best I could by talk ing about the brave action of Andr ew Mynarski, which I think could easily be comprehended by even younger children as a brave action. Whether that could be related to sacrifice tor one's nation in tirre of war and some of the issues of governments and nation states. that I would not want to put my mon ey on So, Mr. Chairman.

I have a numb er of questions that I want to ask the Minister but I want to say to him to begin with, and I hope that he'll res�ond early in the debate; he set as a task, or gave hi!. sanction or appro val to a highly skil led combination of professional educators and people interested in 2578 education. They worked for a period of time to develop a curriculum, and that curricu lum was designed for senior high.

I don't know whether the Minister honestly believes that this course should be redesigned for junior high or whether he is simply scrapping the course and doesn 't want to offend people by saying that he doesn 't want this course at all; whether this is a tactic that he's adopted or whether it is in tact his opinion. If it is his opinion then he either was mistaken in the first place in giving approval for a junior high course or he feels that the material, as he peruses it, is ideally suited for a young adolescent. So I ask him whether he would give us some comment on this course at this time. MR.

CH AIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): The Honourable Minister. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I'm quite pleased that the honourable mem ber has mention ed this particular matter because I think it's timely. I believe it was over a year ago that the Home Ec teachers subject area group made a proposal in regard to Lifestyles and the Lifestyles course and they saw the course as being compo sed of tour components, one of them being nutrition, the other one they entitled parenting, consumerism and career education.

They identified these four areas as containing information and skills that they felt that young people were not receiving in our education system and they proposed a course on this particular area encompassing those four main components. Mr. Chairman, I certainly think that there is information contained within those four components that is important; that our young people should have available to them within our system. Certainly as our society changes there is a need to provide differing and updated curriculum for our young people. So, Mr.

Chairman, on the advice of the Curricu lum Committee we did pursue this particular course, calling it a Lifestyles course; at the time I supp ose there are other names that you could give the particular course. An individual was engaged to draw up a draft course and at that time, the member is quite correct, it was aimed at the senior high school population. Certainly he's quite correct, we decided to go ahead and draft material that would be applicable and usable. Mr.

Chairman, I think the honourable member must be prepared to admit that there is always good reason to take a second look at what we are doing and to give it careful consideration in the light of a bit of time for that same consideration and that is what happened in this case. There were other groups of cou rse in our society that were i