2009 Legislative Session: Fifth Session, 38th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

official report of

Debates of the

Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Monday, March 2, 2009

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 39, Number 2

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Page

Introductions by Members

Point of Privilege (Speaker's Ruling)

Statements (Standing Order 25 b )

SUCCESS services for immigrants

R. Lee

Women's Memorial March and status of aboriginal women

S. Fraser

Settlement workers in schools program

J. Yap

Festival du Bois

D. Thorne

Paul-Jean Lavoie and Marc Pelech

D. Hayer

Sage Birchwater

C. Wyse

Oral Questions

Use of government staff for B.C. Liberal Party fundraising

L. Krog

Hon. W. Oppal

J. Horgan

Orca Bay donation to B.C. Liberal Party

J. Horgan

Hon. W. Oppal

Cost of Port Mann bridge project

M. Karagianis

Hon. K. Falcon

Port Mann bridge toll contract

B. Ralston

Hon. K. Falcon

Release of interim report on Frank Paul inquiry

M. Farnworth

Hon. W. Oppal

Community Living B.C. public relations contract

J. McGinn

Hon. R. Coleman

Child care spaces in Whistler

C. Trevena

Hon. L. Reid

Meat inspection regulations

C. Wyse

Hon. M. Polak

Petitions

L. Krog

Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right)

R. Hawes

Petitions

B. Simpson

D. Routley

Committee of Supply

Supplementary Estimates: Ministry of Tourism, Culture and the Arts (continued)

S. Herbert

Hon. B. Bennett

Supplementary Estimates: Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure

M. Karagianis

Hon. K. Falcon

N. Macdonald

C. Trevena

M. Sather

K. Conroy

N. Simons

C. Evans

C. Wyse

J. Horgan

S. Fraser

H. Lali

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MONDAY, MARCH 2, 2009

The House met at 1:35 p.m.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

Introductions by Members

Mr. Speaker: I want to remind members today that I understand there are a number of guests, so if we could keep the introductions fairly short.

Hon. S. Bond: Sure. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Is that because you saw me get on my feet? There's a message in that.

Today in the gallery we are joined by the 20 outstanding winners of the second annual Premier's Awards for Teaching Excellence and members of the selection committee for the award. As you would know, Mr. Speaker, the award recognizes the best teachers from across British Columbia for their dedication to student achievement and learning.

Earlier today I was really pleased to be joined by members from both sides of the House as we celebrated the accomplishments of these teachers, who tonight will receive the second annual award at Government House. Please join me in welcoming members of the selection committee and our 20 outstanding teachers.

N. Macdonald: I'd like to introduce Ian Foss from Golden, B.C. He's with the Golden and District Search and Rescue. As members will know, this is an incredible group of volunteers that has dedicated thousands of volunteer hours. Members will remember the miraculous rescue of three-year-old Kate Williams from a crashed plane some time back. That was Golden Search and Rescue.

Ian has also done a wonderful job of representing search and rescue in the media during what has been a difficult week. He's joined by Rozalyn Milne, and I ask the House to please join me in making them both feel welcome here.

Hon. M. Coell: I have four guests in the chamber this afternoon: Diane and Gordon Campbell and Bev Kissinger from Community Living Victoria, and Stacy Kuiack. Would you please make them all welcome.

S. Herbert: I rise today to introduce some constituents of mine and some constituents of the member for Surrey-Whalley. We had some trouble getting them into this House because of what I believe to be some antiquated rules here. But they are here, minus tiaras and sashes. Small steps towards a fuller appreciation of our province's great diversity.

I'd like to introduce to the House Mr. and Miss Gay Vancouver XXIX — Brent Wildefyre and Jackie A Go-Go, also known as Mark Gueffroy and Kurtis Reeves.

We are also joined by the Emperor and Empress 5 of Surrey. That would be Wolfgang Bang! and Elektra Quecha — be careful; she'll electrocute ya — also known as Rob Neyts and Sterling Hargitt. We're also joined by the managing editor of Xtra! West , Robin Perelle.

Finally, I would like to introduce…. Somewhere circulating in the House today is the cornerstone of the Canadian court system with 40-plus years of community service embracing diversity. That would be the current reigning Empress of Canada, ted northe, not to be confused with Queen Elizabeth.

All the individuals I've had the pleasure of introducing are integral to their community for promoting diversity and understanding. Mr. and Miss Gay Vancouver XXIX represent the Rhinestone Phoenix Charity Foundation, celebrating 30 years of service. They are elected to serve Vancouver and the North Shore, raise funds for Covenant House and the Metro Vancouver Dream Centre to help end homelessness. Almost there, Mr. Speaker.

The Empress and Emperor 5 of Surrey represent the Imperial and Sovereign Court of Surrey, which has been working to promote community understanding and diversity in the Fraser Valley for over ten years and has been raising funds for the food bank for those living with HIV and AIDS.

While they represent many of us here today, I and my colleague from Surrey-Whalley are their representatives. I would ask the House to make them welcome and thank them for their service to their communities on behalf of B.C.

Hon. W. Oppal: I want to introduce Karen Blake, who teaches physical education, science, health and careers at David Thompson high school in my riding. She's an awesome teacher, who has spent so much time with kids in the neighbourhood and at the school. Ironically, she has a former student who's also an honouree here this afternoon. I'd like to ask the House to make them welcome.

C. Trevena: I'd like to recognize some of the teachers who are up in the gallery. We do have, from Gold River, Rosamund Latvala, who has been working with aboriginal education at Gold River Secondary and Ray Watkins Elementary.

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But as she says, she couldn't do it without the very involved and long and dedicated contribution of Nan Violet Johnson, who is here as her guest. Nan Violet is an elder with Mowachaht/Muchalaht and is very much the heart and soul of the aboriginal education program that Rosamund is here to receive the award for. So I hope the House will make them both very welcome.

Hon. J. McIntyre: I would like for the House to also acknowledge one of the very special teachers here today, who has won an award. Not only is she a fabulous

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teacher, doing her work experience and grad transitions, but she's from Rockridge Secondary, where both my children attended, and I actually knew her.

I'd like the House to welcome Susan Atwood. She's accompanied by Linda Harrison, a youth worker. I just wanted to give my very special personal as well as professional acknowledgment of the great work they do at Rockridge and in West Van.

R. Hawes: In the gallery are two of my constituency assistants, Janis Butcher and Sharon Kihn. Joining them is Christopher Butcher, Janis's son. He lives in the Victoria area, has never been here to question period and is looking forward to watching the quiet and decorum and cooperative attitude that I'm sure will be in evidence here in a few minutes. Could we make them welcome.

R. Sultan: I have two introductions. It's very appropriate that on the day the Premier is making awards for teaching excellence in British Columbia, we should have represented in the precinct and in the galleries 140 students from an institution which is among the best in our superb public school system in this province, Handsworth Secondary School in my riding. They are accompanied by their teacher Mr. Glenn MacKenzie and chaperones. Will the House please make them welcome.

Secondly, also in the House today are members of the Insurance Bureau of Canada, including Jim Robinson, George Bozanin, Ken Keenan, Phil Wynne, Tam Narine, Elizabeth MacDonald, Lindsay Olson, Miranda Lee and Serge Corbeil. Would the House please make them welcome.

R. Thorpe: On behalf of the Speaker and myself, I am very pleased to introduce to the House, visiting the Legislature today from Penticton and Victoria, Jacinta Ferrari, Cal Meiklejohn, Duncan Meiklejohn, Caitlin Meiklejohn and Jasper Meiklejohn. Both Caitlin and Jasper are young aspiring authors from Penticton. Would the House please make them welcome here today.

Hon. G. Hogg: Last Friday after a sleepless night, the wonderful administrative coordinator from our office made her way to the hospital rather than to the Legislature and gave birth to a 7-pound-6-ounce daughter named Kaelyn. Would the House give their best wishes to Kaelyn and to her mother, Julie Smart.

Hon. I. Chong: I wanted, as well, to take this opportunity to recognize an exceptional teacher in my community, Roger Conrod. Roger teaches at Lambrick Park Secondary here in my riding of Oak Bay–Gordon Head, and he teaches carpentry and career prep.

What has been noticeable about his program is that he has engaged the community. He has engaged the private sector, where he has found opportunities for equipment donations, and he has parents and local business owners involved in this program. He has done an exceptional job. A number of his students have gone on to operate successful businesses.

I know that because he works so hard in his advanced woodworking class, he wholly supports our Wood is Good policy. I would hope the House will please welcome Roger Conrod.

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Hon. G. Abbott: I have three guests in the gallery today from the Health Services world. They are Suzanne Taylor, who is the executive director of the drug use optimization branch of the pharmaceutical services division of the ministry. Hilary Watson is a student working on a pharmacy degree from the University of Washington, and Pam Scott is executive coordinator, assistant deputy minister's office, pharmaceutical services division. I'd like to ask the House to please make them all welcome.

D. Hayer: At this time I'd also like to introduce two teachers, Mr. Marc Pelech from Sullivan Heights Secondary School, as well as Paul-Jean "P.J." Lavoie, along with his wife Nancy Campbell. Paul teaches at Johnston Heights Secondary School. These are two exceptional teachers who will be presented with the Premier's Award for Teaching Excellence later on today. Would the House please make them very welcome.

Hon. K. Krueger: Mr. Speaker, mindful of your admonition to be brief, I didn't want to miss the opportunity to introduce Sherry Stade, a recipient of the Premier's Award for Teaching Excellence from Kamloops. She taught all my children as they were going through school and continues to distinguish herself these many years later. She's here with her husband Brian Stade. I ask the House to make them welcome.

Hon. T. Christensen: I want to join with the House and invite them to join me in welcoming Sharon Mackenzie, who is here, as well, to receive the Premier's Award for Teaching Excellence. I have had the pleasure of actually attending Sharon's classroom.

What makes that unique is that it was at Coldstream Meadows seniors facility in Vernon, where Sharon takes her class for a three-month period — I believe it is — and where the students in grade 6 get to interact with the seniors. It is an excellent example of community engagement in education, something that Sharon takes to heart on a number of fronts. I would ask the House to please join me in welcoming her. I'm thrilled she's here.

Mr. Speaker: I'm definitely glad we were brief.

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Point of Privilege

(Speaker's Ruling)

Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, on February 24 the member for Alberni-Qualicum rose in this place on what he described as a matter of privilege, alleging that the Minister of Agriculture and Lands misled the House during question period on February 19 and 23, 2009. On Thursday, February 26, the Government House Leader responded to the member's submission, and I've carefully considered both the member's submission and the Government House Leader's reply. I have also carefully reviewed the authorities quoted to the House and the authorities on the law of privilege.

Before dealing with the substantive issue, there are one or two technical matters which merit comment. In a decision of this House on July 21, 1993, and quoted with approval on July 15, 1996, one of the essential elements required when raising a matter of privilege is that a copy of the motion that the member intends to move, should the Chair find a prima facie case has been established, must be tabled. No such proposed motion was tabled by the member for Alberni-Qualicum.

The Government House Leader, in his presentation, also noted that the matter may not have been raised at the earliest opportunity, and I have considered this submission as well. However, the substantive portion of the submission from the member for Alberni-Qualicum is what the Chair has focused upon in this matter.

The essence of this allegation is that the member must establish that the minister deliberately misled the House, a considerable burden which the member has failed to establish. While there is currently a clear difference of opinion between the member and the minister as to the number of trees cut, the number of logs removed, the groups who were consulted and the end result of the logging operation, I am satisfied that this controversy clearly fits the category of a dispute as to facts, which in itself does not qualify as a matter of privilege.

Let me remind all hon. members that an accusation of deliberately misleading the House is a serious accusation and must rest on a solid foundation. I find that the necessary elements have not been established to sustain a charge of deliberately misleading the House, and I so rule.

Statements

(Standing Order 25

b) SUCCESS SERVICES FOR IMMIGRANTS

R. Lee: Last Friday night I joined other members of this House at a fundraising gala for SUCCESS. I had the opportunity to be part of the rather joyous and exciting night, and I know everyone had a good time. I want to thank the many organizers and volunteers who make SUCCESS a success every day.

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I particularly want to recognize Betty Funston, Joann Wong Bittle, Dr. Raymond Kwan, Tung Chan and Peter Kwok for their tireless work. I also would like to recognize members of the fundraising gala committee: Ricky Wu, Johnny Fong, Michele Kwok, Patrick Lau, Sandra Lau, Karen Woo and Elsa Yap.

There were great artists there to entertain guests, including Chet Lam, the two-time best folk artist of the year at the Chinese Music Media Awards; Ha Yu, who won the best actor at the TVB awards; Annabelle Louie; one of the leading singing coaches in Vancouver; Raymond Sham, whose "Song in the Wind" won an award at the First Canadian Songwriter Quest.

Since 1973 SUCCESS has promoted the well-being of Canadians and immigrants and encouraged their integration into the community. They do this through three organizations: SUCCESS, SUCCESS Multi-Level Care Society and SUCCESS Foundation.

Burnaby has strong ties to SUCCESS, and my constituents benefit greatly from their services. They have taken a lead role in developing a strong sense of community.

Announced last December, SUCCESS was selected to manage and operate Hillside Gardens and add 100 new units of subsidized housing for low-income or new arrivals. I know they will make a positive impact at Hillside Gardens by helping residents link into the community and receive the supports they need to succeed.

Will the House please join me in celebrating the success of SUCCESS.

WOMEN'S MEMORIAL MARCH and

status of aboriginal women

S. Fraser: On February 14 Victoria joined other major cities in honouring murdered women and indigenous people from across the province. I attended the rally organized by the students from the University of Victoria and Camosun College.

The purpose of the rally, which ended here at the Legislature, was to create awareness, grieve for the loss of the women, show support for the families, and remember the over 500 missing and murdered indigenous women from Vancouver Island and all over Canada.

Hundreds gathered for the event, and as I marched, I realized I was becoming angry. I recalled how, as a fledgling MLA in this House and a new Aboriginal Affairs critic in 2005, I had risen in this House to bring attention to the same issue. I referred to the Amnesty International report of 2004 entitled Stolen Sisters , and I spoke of the missing and murdered women along Highway 16, the highway of tears.

Since then, I and many of my colleagues have met with families and friends of the missing and murdered women,

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and to a person, they feel the frustration of abandonment and frustration and outrage at the failures of the system to provide the resources necessary for justice.

The Amnesty report identified that social and economic marginalization of indigenous women — along with government policies that have torn apart families and communities, as well as the failures of policy and the justice system — as contributing to the entire problem. Combine that with the worst combination of racism and sexism, and there is an expectation that societal indifference to the welfare and safety of indigenous women will allow the perpetrators, the predators, to escape justice.

Here we are four years later. I stand here raising the same issues again, and nothing has changed.

So I will paraphrase from my closing statement of four years ago. I suggest that if the missing and murdered women were from an affluent region of B.C. and involving non-aboriginal women, we would not need to march to raise attention.

SETTLEMENT WORKERS

IN SCHOOLS PROGRAM

J. Yap: This past Saturday, February 28, I attended a very unique event aimed at helping newly arrived immigrant families. The event was presented by Settlement Workers in Schools, or SWIS, and was held in my riding at Hugh-Boyd Secondary School in partnership with the Richmond board of education.

Let's Connect: School, Community and You was the theme, and the concept is very simple yet significant. Typically, new immigrants arrive in Canada with young families. After all, it is the desire for a better life for their children that drives many to leave their homelands. Schools are a natural point of entry for new immigrants and can provide a perfect venue to learn about and access services in their new environment.

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About 600 people, both parents and children, attended this event. Let's Connect was supported by the Richmond board of education, and for this I commend board chair Linda McPhail and her fellow school trustees.

I'd also like to thank district administrator Tony Corrigan, who was the driving force in bringing the SWIS program to Richmond and in organizing this day, which was a great success.

I ask all members of this House to join me in congratulating Tony Corrigan and the SWIS team in Richmond for their dedication and commitment to helping new immigrants become better adjusted, informed and settled in our community.

FESTIVAL DU BOIS

D. Thorne: Bonjour, mes amis . Today I address the House with the friendly French greeting you can hear on the streets of Maillardville, particularly at this time of year when Festival du Bois is just days away.

I am particularly proud this year as B.C.'s first and largest French Canadian settlement celebrates its 100th anniversary. Maillardville's rich history began when brave pioneers from Quebec settled on the shores of the Fraser River, bringing their music and their culture with them.

The largest francophone community west of Manitoba is the result, and the French language can still be heard in my constituency, which includes the community of Maillardville on the south slope of Coquitlam.

This coming weekend marks the 20th year for the Festival du Bois, a folk music festival that spans cultures, generations and language. It attracts thousands of visitors who share in the joie de vivre with music of all kinds, dance, cultural workshops and a children's tent.

Along with the lineup of amazing musicians representing many cultures and favourite performers from past years, I'm especially looking forward to hearing the 60 young voices in the chorale des pionniers on Sunday at 3 p.m. I'm doing my best, Mr. Speaker, with corrections from my colleague here, who obviously paid more attention in school than I did.

These children, in grades 2 to 6, attend the Ecole des Pionniers du Maillardville. This is your invitation to join me at Mackin Park in Coquitlam on March 7 and 8. The fun is contagious, and you'll soon be tapping your toes to fiddle music as you dig into tourtière, poutine and maple syrup. Merci .

PAUL-JEAN LAVOIE AND MARC PELECH

D. Hayer: I rise today to speak of the foundation of our society — education. I wish to highlight two teachers from my home community of Surrey, who have dedicated their lives to our youth. Paul-Jean "P.J." Lavoie and Marc Pelech are incredibly dedicated to education and to our kids, and Surrey is very fortunate to have them.

As a result of their tremendous talent, passion and innovation, I am pleased to report that they are both among the recipients of the Premier's Award for Teaching Excellence who have been honoured today here in Victoria. Paul-Jean "P.J." Lavoie is a teacher at Johnston Heights Secondary School, where he teaches student leadership and works to promote community participation and healthy relationships within the school.

Along with sporting activities such as the Terry Fox Run and breast cancer awareness, Paul arranges two

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major drama productions and a dinner theatre event each year. He works to ensure that teachers in the school have the resources they need to develop healthy relationships with students through his Relationship Always Matters.

Marc Pelech teaches visual and media arts at Sullivan Heights Secondary School, where he creates a culture of student achievements and community engagement through student participation in civic arts projects. His students worked with the B.C. Dairy Foundation on a Drink More Milk campaign and are working with the city manager on local beautification and a culture celebration project.

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Under his guidance, his students have also created a sustainable on-line resource for art teachers, parents and students interested in participating in applied arts. Both these teachers are being awarded today because of their talent and passion for teaching. But most importantly, they have made a difference in hundreds of lives. They have fostered the most precious resource for our future, that being our children and youth.

SAGE BIRCHWATER

C. Wyse: Today I would like to introduce a man who was born in Victoria, lived in Toronto and settled in the Chilcotin. Sage Birchwater is a well-known and much-loved resident of the Cariboo-Chilcotin. Sage arrived in B.C. in March 1973 from Toronto with only a packsack on his back and a plan to head to Bella Coola. Sage never made it past the Chilcotin plateau.

In his farewell message to the readers of the Williams Lake Tribune , Sage said that he caught the bug and never left. His friend Diana French called it hearing the drummer. Whatever it's called, Sage joined the many others who call the Chilcotin their home.

While the Chilcotin was supposed to be a short stop on his trip, Sage stayed to make this wonderful area his home. During this time he learned much about the people and places on the Chilcotin plateau and shared this knowledge with the rest of us through his writing. He is the author of Chiwid ; Williams Lake: Gateway to the Cariboo Chilcotin ; as well as contributing to Ulkatcho Food and Medicine Plants .

Sage is also a journalist and has worked for the Tribune for almost eight years, covering hard news and human interest stories. He is respected for his ability to tell the truth, share the fascinating and reveal the humorous side of life.

Above all, Sage is a storyteller. Whether he's writing about current events, history or the people and places of the Cariboo-Chilcotin, Sage brings his readers into the story, capturing their attention and imagination with his easy writing style.

Sage has won several newspaper awards for his stories and photographs. He has also worked as a trapper, environmentalist, educator and oral history researcher. I ask the House to join me in wishing Sage Birchwater well as he retires to take on new challenges.

Oral Questions

Use of government staff for

B.C. LIBERAL PARTY FUNDRAISING

L. Krog: Documents obtained by the official opposition show that in 2003 the then Finance Minister was using his government office and staff to coordinate an exclusive fundraiser for the B.C. Liberal Party at a Vancouver Canucks game.

My question is to the Minister of Finance. Is using a minister's office for raising funds for the B.C. Liberal Party a standard operating procedure in this government?

Hon. W. Oppal: I assume that the document that the member speaks of is a document obtained as a result of a court order, an order made by Madam Justice Bennett of the Supreme Court of British Columbia. In those circumstances, it would be improper for me to answer the question, as it is improper for that member to ask the question.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

L. Krog: Well, the minister is always one to criticize my law school education. Let me tell the minister. There is nothing at law that prevents this government from answering this important public question here in this House today.

These documents show that on March 5, 2003, well-known Liberal bagman Lyall Knott worked hand in glove with the minister's office to coordinate this fundraiser. The Ministry of Finance is still sitting on a five-page list of donors who watched the game from a luxury box donated by John McCaw, owner of the Vancouver Canucks. They refused to release it, citing privacy considerations.

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Again, to the minister: is it acceptable for a government employee to organize a partisan political party fundraiser through a ministry office? Is it or is it not a violation of every acceptable practice for ministers' offices and the minister's employees? And shouldn't the government know who the government's hand is out to? Shouldn't the public know who the government is seeking electoral favours from in the course of government business?

Hon. W. Oppal: The member well knows that these matters are matters that came before the Supreme Court of British Columbia, and it is improper for anyone here to make reference to those matters.

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Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. W. Oppal: The documents that were apparently released were released pursuant to the order of Madam Justice Bennett, and I'm not going to comment on those.

Mr. Speaker: Member has a further supplemental.

L. Krog: Well, for the benefit and information of the Attorney General, the documents are available through FOI, if he cares to look himself. So they're public documents.

It's very clear that the government's employee code of conduct absolutely prohibits this kind of partisan activity. The evidence is clear. The former Minister of Finance was using his office to help raise funds for the Liberal Party.

How widespread is this practice? What steps will the Deputy Premier take to lift the lid off these B.C. Liberal Party activities in this Legislature?

Hon. W. Oppal: It's the same question, and I'll answer it the same way.

J. Horgan: I have in my hand what is a public document released by the government of British Columbia. I have it in my possession. I'm happy to give it to the minister on the other side.

It's from Lyall Knott, fundraiser for the B.C. Liberal Party, to an administrative staff person in the Minister of Finance's office. It says the following: "I am enclosing the names and contact information for the people who either attended the Canucks game on February 23 or sent cheques but were unable to attend. Please note one list is marked contributors and the other list is marked attendees so Minister Collins can tailor his response accordingly."

My question to the minister: is it acceptable behaviour to force public servants to do political work on the public dime?

Hon. W. Oppal: The document submitted may or may not be relevant to the proceedings. The fact is that they are inextricably tied to the Supreme Court proceedings, so I'm not going to make comment.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

Orca Bay donation

to B.C. Liberal Party

J. Horgan: Let's see if we can try and get around this ethical blind spot that the Attorney General has discovered.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

J. Horgan: I was ten years old, Minister. Wake up. It's 2009.

I have in my hand….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Member, just take your seat for a second.

Let's listen to the question and listen to the answer, please.

Continue, Member.

J. Horgan: I have in my hand a document from Elections B.C., an organization that the minister may be familiar with. It discloses that the B.C. Liberal Party, on the 23rd of February, 2003, received a $3,000 donation in kind from Orca Bay, the parent group for the Vancouver Canucks. That donation was a luxury box so that the member for Vancouver-Fairview at that time could take money out of business pockets to seek gain for the Liberal Party. It's clear. It's transparent.

My question is to the minister. Just after this hockey game, Orca Bay signed an agreement with the B.C. Lottery Corporation that improved the bottom line for that private company. Can the minister confirm that this sort of ethical behaviour is standard practice for the B.C. Liberal Party?

Hon. W. Oppal: We will respect the principle of independence of the judiciary. The fact that the member opposite said….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. W. Oppal: "We'll get around it this way," he said. Well, we're not going to get around ethical conditions and ethical issues this way.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members, everybody gets a turn to ask a question and, in turn, hear an answer. So we're going to just wait.

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COST OF PORT MANN BRIDGE project

M. Karagianis: On Friday the Transportation Minister announced a colossal failure, the collapse of his privatization scheme for the Port Mann bridge. The minister failed to pull off the deal even after offering a $1.1 billion bailout to the project's financier. His obsession with pursuing a private financing scheme means the bridge is greatly delayed and the costs have doubled.

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Will the minister reveal to the taxpayers of British Columbia how much money he's wasted so far on this dogmatic pursuit of a failed privatization scheme?

Hon. K. Falcon: Well, actually the member's wrong — not one day of delay. What I can confirm, in fact, is that under this government we are building a $2.46 billion Port Mann bridge. What I can confirm is that we will be building a ten-lane bridge with dedicated bus lanes. We will be moving forward with a project that will employ 8,000 British Columbians. And we will be doing it in spite of the fact that the NDP have opposed it every step of the way.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat, Member.

The member has a supplemental.

M. Karagianis: Well, you know, in 2006 this project was budgeted to be $1.5 billion. Today the project is $3.3 billion and counting. So we were supposed to see pilings rising out of the river in 2008. Has that happened? No, it has not. The project….

Interjection.

M. Karagianis: Oh, one piling — one piling. The minister cannot be….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Member, just take your seat. I can't hear you.

Members, let's listen to the question.

Continue, Member.

M. Karagianis: Well, the minister cannot be serious about that. But listen. The reality is that the project is late, it's massively over budget, and the financing scheme has collapsed. This isn't just a failure, but it's an embarrassment for the minister…

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

M. Karagianis: …and it's also a colossal waste of taxpayers' money. My question to the minister is simply: will he reveal to British Columbians the cost of this embarrassing failure? How much are we paying because he ignored the warnings, blindly pursued a privatization scheme, wasted time on his failed financing deal and pushed the costs through the roof?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members.

Hon. K. Falcon: Well, I can see that the NDP's understanding of basic finance hasn't improved since the fast ferries. The fact of the matter is that when the project was announced in 2005 at $1.7 billion, it was made clear that that was in 2005 dollars. There's a concept called time value of money, and I'm happy to walk the members through that.

The fact of the matter is that the project has not doubled in cost, as they're always out there yammering on about. That's simply not true. The project cost is $2.46 billion. There is a larger bridge that is being built as a result of the competitive bid process. It is on schedule, it is going to get built, and, let me tell you, for the people that are stuck 14 hours a day in rush hour traffic, they appreciate the new Port Mann bridge we are building here in British Columbia.

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Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: It's going to be a long question period. You might as well take your seat.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

PORT MANN BRIDGE TOLL CONTRACT

B. Ralston: The minister mentioned the competitive bidding process. It's striking that on Friday afternoon the minister also announced that he had awarded a new and untendered contract to Macquarie, the failed bidder, to provide advice on financing and tolling. Yet Macquarie investment bank had failed to produce the financing for the Port Mann crossing. Does the Minister of Finance support this award to a failed bidder?

Hon. K. Falcon: The member could have pulled me aside and asked me that question so I could have actually straightened out his misperception, because we didn't say that we had awarded an untendered contract. We said that Macquarie was available, when we decide to pay them, to provide advice in an area in which they actually have tremendous expertise.

Some Hon. Members: More, more.

Hon. K. Falcon: I'll give you more.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Continue, Minister.

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Hon. K. Falcon: I know, for the members opposite, that it would be rather striking to consider utilizing the services of a company that is world-renowned for their expertise in electronic tolling. I know that for the members of the opposition, that is a challenging fact. But the fact of the matter is that this is a great project with a great builder. I'll remind the members opposite that it's currently involved in building two major products in British Columbia: the Sea to Sky Highway and the Pitt River bridge, both of them ahead of

schedule and on budget.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

The member has a supplemental.

B. Ralston: Well, the minister's position is contradicted by the ministry press release, but that's, I suppose, small potatoes for this minister.

Section 4 of the Transportation Act speaks of the competitive bidding process. That's the way costs to taxpayers are saved. Mr. Justice Brenner of the B.C. Supreme Court said in a case he decided: "When governments, for reasons of patronage or otherwise, apply criteria unknown to the bidders, great injustice follows."

Will the Minister of Finance investigate the secret standards that led the Minister of Transportation to award a consolation prize to the failed bidder Macquarie?

Hon. K. Falcon: Again, the member opposite completely fails to understand what's happened.

Interjections.

Hon. K. Falcon: No, I don't think you do, actually, Member. You see, what we have said is that on an as-needed basis, we are able to utilize the services of Macquarie Group. On an as-needed basis, should we need them, we can utilize them to provide some advice and expertise that they have that is unique in the fact that they provide tolling advisory services around the world, and we will have the ability to take advantage of that.

But really, I think the issue here that is important is that I'm still trying to figure out the position of the NDP on this very important project. Now, maybe we have an opportunity, because in 2007 the Leader of the Opposition said: "Not this. Wrong bridge; wrong time." I'd like to know if that's still the position of the opposition.

I'll tell you what our position is. We're moving forward with the Port Mann bridge, 400 people are currently working on it, and we're getting it built.

RELEASE OF INTERIM REPORT

ON FRANK PAUL INQUIRY

M. Farnworth: Can the Attorney General confirm that he has the Frank Paul…? The results of the Frank Paul inquiry have been sitting on his desk for the last 19 days. Can he tell this House when he intends to release it?

Hon. W. Oppal: I do have the Frank Paul interim report. It's 445 pages in length. We have to abide by the law before we release such a report. The Inquiry Act sets forth…. I recommend the Inquiry Act for reading…

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

[1420]

Hon. W. Oppal: …for the members. We usually follow the law on this side of the House.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Attorney. Attorney, just sit down.

Members.

Attorney, continue.

Hon. W. Oppal: The report will be released.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

M. Farnworth: It's been sitting on the minister's desk for 19 days. The minister said it was 445 pages. That's a little over 20 pages a day, I think. I would have thought the Attorney General would have been quite capable of reading 20 pages a day.

Let me ask this question to the Attorney General. Will he commit to this House that it's released before the writ is dropped?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Just wait, Attorney.

Hon. W. Oppal: The members opposite can make fun of this and make light of it, but this is a serious report. It dealt with the death of a man who was in police custody. That report needs to be taken seriously, and we are….

Interjections.

Hon. W. Oppal: It may provoke a lot of laughter over there, but I can tell you the report is not funny. It will be released. We have to go through all the….

Interjections.

[ Page 14099 ]

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Continue, Attorney.

Hon. W. Oppal: There are other ministries involved. There are privacy considerations to canvass. The law needs to be adhered to. We will release the report, and I can assure the member that it will be released before the writ is dropped.

COMMUNITY LIVING B.C.

PUBLIC RELATIONS CONTRACT

J. McGinn: My question is to the Minister of Housing and Social Development.

People with developmental disabilities need help, not another public relations campaign from this government. On February 6 this government posted a request for spin doctors to help Community Living B.C. with its image. Front-line services, not public relations, should be the priority. Minister, will you cancel this wasteful and unnecessary contract and invest in community support?

Mr. Speaker: Just to remind members to go through the Chair, please.

Hon. R. Coleman: The member opposite might want to look at the budget and find out there's been a huge increase in funding for Community Living B.C. this year to deal with wait-lists and to deal with people on the front line.

I might just read a little quote into the record here that might actually crystallize it for the members opposite. "It's not often that I give kudos to the government, but at this particular time, I think we need to. They've shown true leadership by listening to their community" — you don't like hearing quotes, do you? — "and responding to our needs." That is Rory Summers of the B.C. Association for Community Living.

Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental.

J. McGinn: The most effective and efficient way to build public trust is to actually deliver the services that British Columbians expect from their government. People with developmental disabilities should not be left waiting while the government's on another public relations exercise.

I ask the minister again. Will you cancel this unnecessary and wasteful contract and invest instead in front-line services for people with developmental disabilities?

[1425]

Hon. R. Coleman: This year the government is providing $52.4 million more to community living services in British Columbia. The budget increase is going to help us to address the rising demand for CLBC services dealing with the change from IQ 70 and the number of clients that are presently wait-listed with CLBC.

I think it's always best to not have us tell us what's important or what's right. Let me read another quote. "The B.C. Association for Community Living recognizes the current economic climate and is pleased…"

Interjections.

Hon. R. Coleman: You don't like hearing this — do you? You just don't like hearing this.

"…that the government understands the social and economic value of working towards its 'great goal' of building the best system of supports for persons with disabilities and special needs." That's exactly what we're doing.

CHILD CARE SPACES IN WHISTLER

C. Trevena: The Teddy Bear Daycare in Whistler is closing at the end of May, and the operators have told parents in a letter that it's because "the day care space will not be available during the 2010 Olympic period."

Last spring when the issue of child care in Whistler was raised in this House, the minister of state advised parents to go to another centre, which is about 20 kilometres away. I'd like to advise the minister that that centre is closing, and the centre in Whistler is closing, and there is nothing available for parents in Whistler or the surrounding areas.

I'd like to ask if the minister of state can give some advice to working parents in Whistler on what they should do about their child care.

Hon. L. Reid: I thank the member opposite for her question. This government continues to oversee the largest child care budget ever — an enormous sum of money. We continue to work with the individuals in Whistler, and I, in fact, have visited there many times in terms of addressing the recruitment issues, the retention issues, the real estate issues.

We'll continue to work with them, because our challenge is to continue to provide day care services across British Columbia, and they continue to be in regular contact with our offices.

Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental.

C. Trevena: To the minister of state. I'm very intrigued that she's carrying on talking to the various communities in Whistler, because since she started talking we've lost 46 spaces in the community, and we don't actually have any space for parents who are looking for child care.

The operators of the Teddy Bear Daycare are a major company. They're Whistler Blackcomb, which is part of

[ Page 14100 ]

the Intrawest group, and that company recognizes that child care is important for the community and for a successful business.

In the letter to parents which was informing them of the closure, it actually says: "We realize that quality child care is essential to the success of the community." Whistler Blackcomb recognizes it. B.C. Chamber of Commerce recognizes it. The board of trade recognizes it. But seriously, I think the minister is paying lip service to it.

I'd like to ask the minister: if the Olympics is supposed to attract people to British Columbia, what message is being given to families? The fact that these child care spaces are closing as we approach the Olympics — is this the minister's legacy for the Olympics, for the working families in Whistler?

Hon. L. Reid: Absolutely, this government understands the importance of building child care space, which is why we've built 6,000 new child care spaces across British Columbia. We have invested $34 million in capital construction, and we continue to provide subsidies to 90,000 licensed child care spaces. That is double what it was when we came to government.

MEAT INSPECTION REGULATIONS

C. Wyse: On Thursday of last week I raised some questions with regard to the meat industry regulations and how they were affecting the industry itself.

[1430]

The Minister of Healthy Living and Sport responded to those questions regarding those inadequacies. The minister missed the point.

When the government introduced the new meat industry regulations, many meat-processing plants were shut down. Production costs for meat producers have increased substantially, while hundreds of meat producers around the province have been forced out of business.

My question to the minister is: how many processing plants were in operation before the regulations were implemented, how many have since closed down, and how many are now in production?

Hon. M. Polak: First of all, I want to remind the member and all members opposite that this is a public health issue. The safety of the food….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister.

Hon. M. Polak: For those who do not think that the meat inspection regulations are a matter of public health, I might remind them of a small disease known as BSE and the devastating impact that it has had on populations and on the meat industry.

Not only are the meat inspection regulations important to protect public health, Mr. Speaker, but can you imagine the devastating impact on the meat industry in British Columbia from one case of BSE?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Minister, please take your seat.

Members.

Continue, Minister.

Hon. M. Polak: One case of BSE — that's all it would take to absolutely devastate the meat industry in British Columbia. That's all it would take.

I am absolutely appalled to think that at a time when we're trying to work with meat processors to strengthen the industry, to increase production capacity and processing capacity, those members would want to reject the safety of the public and the well-being of the meat industry in order to just score political points.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

C. Wyse: The issue that is in front of the House is a government that doesn't wish to respond to the suggestions that have been brought forward by the producers as well as the meat-slaughtering industry.

There is no question that there have been increased costs that have been passed on to the producer. There have been increased costs that have been caused by transportation, niche marketing, and the issues go on and on. The government across the way has passed this issue from Agriculture to Health to Healthy Living and Sport.

Where does someone from Cranbrook, where does somebody from the Kootenays, where does someone from around the province approach to get answers? My question: will any minister commit to working with the meat producers and the meat-slaughtering industry to fix these regressive meat inspection regulations?

Hon. M. Polak: The member is once again just dead wrong. This is a file that has been taken with great seriousness by those involved in public health, who are the same people who have been working with developing this since 2004 when it was implemented.

We're proud to work with the Cattlemen's Association and the B.C. Food Processors Association. I'd be interested to know: if the member is so concerned about the costs that have been present in the transition for the meat industry, where were the members opposite when it was time to vote on meat transition assistance program funding — $9 million?

Guess what, Mr. Speaker. They voted against it — $9 million to help transition this industry. We will continue

[ Page 14101 ]

to work with this industry so that we have safe meat products and a vibrant meat-processing industry in British Columbia.

[End of question period.]

L. Krog: Hon. Speaker, I seek leave to table two petitions.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

[1435]

Petitions

L. Krog: I have two petitions. They both relate to the same dangerous stretch of the Island Highway just south of Nanaimo. The first consists of 118 signatures calling on the government to improve the intersection of Spruston and the Island Highway. And the second, collected by Ken Dixon, a community-minded citizen, consists of over 1,300 signatures calling on the government to install cement dividers and proper lighting, and to remove the southwest bluffs and install photo radar cameras in order to protect the people who travel on the Island Highway.

Point of Privilege

(Reservation of Right)

R. Hawes: I rise to reserve my right to raise a matter of privilege.

B. Simpson: I seek leave to present a petition.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

Petitions

B. Simpson: I have a petition signed by 1,527 residents of Williams Lake, 100 Mile House and the surrounding area who are experiencing unsafe driving conditions due to lack of proper road maintenance as a result of deteriorating roads.

D. Routley: I seek to present a petition.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

D. Routley: This petition is signed by many of my constituents. They're concerned about the length of time British Columbians must wait for weight-loss surgery, otherwise known as bariatric surgery, and the lack of choice that is available to them.

M. Farnworth: I ask leave to make an introduction.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

Introductions by Members

M. Farnworth: Mindful of your comments earlier, I'd like to let the House know that a teacher from Archbishop Carney Secondary School is up in the gallery watching question period. So would the House please make Mr. Chris Seppelt most welcome.

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply — for the information of members, continued discussion on the supplementary estimates, beginning with Tourism and, I think, moving eventually to Transportation.

Committee of Supply

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES:

MINISTRY OF TOURISM,

CULTURE AND THE ARTS

(continued)

The House in Committee of Supply; K. Whittred in the chair.

The committee met at 2:40 p.m.

On Vote 42(S): ministry operations, $15,100,000 (continued).

S. Herbert: We got some good discussion going on last day. I appreciate the minister sharing what he did.

I've got a little

summary of a report, Building from Strength — Report and Recommendations from Arts and Culture: Building B.C.'s Creative Agenda . It's a summit that happened in 2006 with the former Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts, the member for Richmond Centre. It's got something in here which I thought I'd read out, because I think it's important to get on the record and to make very clear why I'm so interested in this file and why the NDP is so interested in this file and what the government is currently planning on doing.

The executive

summary states, basically:

"A consistent thread throughout the day was the need to build on current strengths to affirm and develop the importance of the cultural sector to the province's economic prosperity and social health. The strength of the role played by the cultural sector in the province's economy was particularly stressed at that summit.

"As the minister pointed out" — the minister at that time — "the most recent Statistics Canada data indicated that British Columbia was the third-largest producer of culture output in Canada, accounting for $5 billion, 4 percent of provincial gross domestic product."

It goes on to quote from the minister, where she states:

"But the cultural sector represents and contributes more than just money and jobs to our economy…. It's the very stuff that defines us as a society."

[ Page 14102 ]

Then it says:

"The meeting was unanimous in its belief that more resources, both public and private, are necessary to allow the province's cultural sector to flourish."

Just to highlight, it says that more resources are necessary.

It also says:

"What was needed is a comprehensive, multi-year investment plan" — and underline multi-year investment plan — "that takes into account the relationship of arts and cultural activity to recreation, community development, education and the diverse cultures of the province."

The delegates at that forum and in this report strongly supported sustained core operational funding, which would be required to ensure long-term growth and development of the sector. I know the minister certainly has made mention of that in the past as well.

A question we finished off with the other day that I wanted to follow up on was the discussion of how many jobs this supplementary estimate of $7 million for arts and culture would be infusing into the community, as it has year after year because of the sustained funding.

Hon. B. Bennett: I find myself in pretty much complete agreement with the member in terms of the backgrounder that prefaces his question, specifically in terms of the importance of arts and culture to our individual communities and to us as a people.

I'm certainly proud of everything that we have done on this side of the House to support arts and culture. I won't go into the litany just from this current fiscal year, but it's quite substantive.

Just one example is the BC150 fund that was created — $150 million. It was created specifically to be ongoing and to help with sustainable funding for arts and culture.

In terms of the specific question, we do have our staff working on the logistics of calculating how many jobs will come out of the $15.1 million. When we have that, I'll include it in a letter and give it to the member.

S. Herbert: Well, I did just a little back-of-a-napkin numbers, based on the average income of an artist in Canada, which is about $23,000. It works out to be quite a good-sized number of jobs in our province. I'll be looking forward to seeing those figures.

[1445]

I guess the reason I think it's so important that we get the numbers of jobs — the thousands of jobs that the arts and culture sector creates in the province…. I've got a couple of figures, ranging from 80,000 to 118,000 that the cultural sector has in this province. I am concerned, of course, with the cuts coming up that the minister has outlined in his service plan to the B.C. Arts Council budget — the approximately 50 percent cuts in support.

I think it's important we get these numbers on the table here so we can see what kind of devastation will be coming to communities that rely on arts and culture support for jobs and for community livability, because certainly slashing the budget by about 50 percent in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 will have that effect.

I would ask the minister if it will also be possible to share with me what other kind of money is leveraged into the arts and culture sector by the investment of this government. Maybe there's a quick answer there, or maybe you'll need a few days to get that back to me.

Hon. B. Bennett: Starting with the $7 million that's going to the B.C. Arts Council. That is the first thing that comes to mind, if the member is interested in a list. I don't have an exhaustive list in front of me, but I can certainly provide the member some examples. I'd be glad to do that.

In addition to that $7 million that we're discussing here today, there is $650,000 that's going to support the Juno Awards in Vancouver. That's provincial. There's another $600,000 that's going to support B.C. artists participating in B.C. Scene in Ottawa this spring. There's $300,000 that's going to the Canadian Country Music Awards in Vancouver in September. There is $575,000 going towards the Cultural Olympiad. That, of course, is the cultural component of the 2010 games.

There is between $18 million and $20 million — we calculate that for 2007-08, it was exactly $19.8 million — that goes to arts and culture in this province from the community gaming grants program. That's B.C. Lotteries.

There was also the arts legacy fund that we created, the $20 million endowment in addition to the BC150 $150 million endowment. There's been $15 million go into arts and culture through 2010 Legacies Now. Frankly, I could stand here and list lots of examples of provincial money going into arts and culture.

Of course, before I sit down, I should mention $50 million going into the Vancouver Art Gallery. So there have been lots and lots of examples of this government supporting arts and culture in this province.

S. Herbert: I agree that there have been many examples of the provincial government supporting arts and culture in this province for many years. That's why I'm so concerned that the budget for the arts and culture department is planned on being slashed by 50 percent. All of these things the minister likes to talk about will be thoroughly threatened by his service plan which he proposes.

I guess he missed the question and gave me a list. It's nice to know the list, because I think it speaks to the vitality that the arts and culture industry brings to the sector.

But what I'm asking is…. This $7 million leverages other funding. That's funding from the Canada Council for the Arts. That's funding from municipalities. That's funding from the private sector. I'm wondering if there's any estimation on the leverage. The reason I think it's important is that when the province cuts 50 percent support to the arts and culture sector, as they're planning on

[ Page 14103 ]

doing, you're also losing money for the province from the Canada Council for the Arts.

We look to Quebec. There's incredible leverage of funding. The province kicks in this much, and the federal government comes and kicks in this much. But here in this province it looks like we're going backwards. By not kicking in the same amount with the 50 percent cut in funding that this minister proposes in 2010-2011, 2011-2012, we're basically suggesting to other groups that the B.C. government doesn't support the arts in that way, so why should they.

[1450]

I was hoping I could get a figure from the minister about what kind of other investment the B.C. government's investment brings into the province — so from the Canada Council for the Arts, from private sector, from foundations, from local governments — because that's all important in our understanding of how to support the arts and culture sector.

Hon. B. Bennett: The member included a number of questions, really, in his statement. With regard to federal funding, it's certainly my opinion that British Columbia generally receives as much largesse from the federal government as any other province in the country. In fact, I think we probably have one of the most, if not the most, constructive relationships with the federal government of any province or territory in the country.

Unlike the way it used to be, when the province of British Columbia was always bickering with the federal government and calling the federal government names in Vancouver and Victoria newspapers, we have developed, on the other hand, a very good and very constructive and productive relationship with the federal government.

So I do think that we get our share there in terms of infrastructure dollars. Some of those infrastructure dollars, of course, in this upcoming round of infrastructure funding, are going to be related to arts and culture and heritage, based on what the federal government has said about their budget. We will ensure that we get our share.

In fact, I've had meetings just recently, within the last two weeks, with a number of arts and culture groups in this province where I have volunteered my staff to assist them to ensure that they're able to provide the right kind of application for federal-provincial infrastructure funding, arts-and-culture type of infrastructure funding. So I think we're on solid ground there.

In terms of the $7 million that the member referred to — and, of course, that's the amount that we're actually discussing here in the supplementary budget — some of that money is leveraged after it comes out of the B.C. Arts Council. It's up to the individual applicant organization or individual as to whether the funds are leveraged or not. So some is, and some is not. There may not be the opportunity to leverage it, but for whatever reason, some is and some isn't.

The B.C. renaissance fund was all leveraged money, as the member is probably aware. So that's, I think, a very good example of how you can leverage. Put money into the arts and culture communities across the province and require leveraging on that money. That's what we did in that case.

The examples that I read out just a few minutes ago…. For example, the $50 million going into the art gallery — that's leveraged money. The art gallery will clearly cost a lot more than $50 million, but we've put $50 million in to get things started. There will be private money coming in there, and there may be other public money. I think that's true of the arts and culture community generally. They find resources wherever they can, and I have a lot of respect for how well they do that.

I agree with the member that we have to hold our end up, and that's why we're here discussing this supplementary budget. That's why we have made sure that in this next fiscal year the B.C. Arts Council will, in fact, have the same amount of money that it had last year — even a little bump-up of about $800,000.

So I think all of the opportunities that existed for arts and culture groups and individuals in this past fiscal year will exist in the next fiscal year. In the meantime, over the next 13 months, I hope a couple of things will happen. I hope that the economy improves and that the interest rates will be somewhat higher for the BC150 fund. I mean, a bump of a couple of interest percentages or points would bump the number up from, say, $3 million to $5 million or $6 million.

Of course, if the economy improves, as it will, I am hopeful — even cautiously optimistic — that in out-years we'll be able to put something back into the budget, just as we're doing this year.

[1455]

Can I promise that right now, given the circumstances that the province finds itself in? No, I can't. What I can promise stakeholders in the arts and culture community is that I will do everything I possibly can to make sure that those out-years, the 2010-11 and the 2011-12, will be at least as good as this year. And this year, as I have said, is just as good as last year. So that's my commitment.

S. Herbert: Well, I think that's a longer answer for what I think is a short question, which is: how much money is leveraged?

As an artist, when I worked in the arts, I can tell you that quite often there would be foundations, there would be the Canada Council, and they'd want to know that you had provincial support before they committed to give you federal support. So with the proposed 50 percent cut to arts and culture funding by this minister, we're looking at a lot less money coming in from across Canada, and that's going to hurt our economy.

We are going to see a loss of jobs with this proposal. But we're also going to see a net effect, a wider effect, of

[ Page 14104 ]

a loss of jobs, because we see that the leveraged funding increases the opportunity for more jobs because of the federal funding. I'll just put that on the record. Hopefully, the minister can come back and take a look at the leveraging effect and get that in the letter to me. I understand it doesn't seem like he has the figures today, but it would be very helpful to have an estimate for the future.

I found it interesting what the minister spoke about, about the out-years of 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 when he plans on cutting the budget by 50 percent. He says he's going to do his best to put something back, just as we did this year.

Now, I would remind the minister that the legislation his Finance Minister brought in actually precludes any possibility of there being supplementary funding like this. It would actually be against the law, and it would have to go into paying down the debt.

This supplementary funding is a last time. This is really one time only because of the legislation that his Minister of Finance has brought in. So for him to suggest that is a bit rich and, I think, a little bit…. Hopefully, it's not disingenuous. Maybe he's got another pot of money somewhere else that he thinks he can dip into. But if so, I would have hoped to see it in the service plan.

I remember, going back to last time when we were discussing this topic, that the minister struck out at my suggestion that President Obama had been supporting the arts and investing in the arts. He said nobody's projecting three years out. Obama's not projecting three years out in terms of support. So I find it a little interesting that in his Minister of Finance's documents, he does project three years out.

I seem to remember something about rural homeowners and how that would come into place in 2011. Well, that sounds to me like his Finance Minister was projecting three years out. So it's a little bit odd for me to see this service plan, which shows 50 percent cuts coming in 2010-2011, 2011-2012 — and of course, the core cut, which is this next year, 2009-10. That is only being topped up by the supplementary funding right before an election and before they outlaw this practice of supplementary funding.

It's a bit questionable, and I'd be interested in the minister's response to that. But so far whenever I ask a question, I don't get a straight answer. What I get is a discussion of what the member has done in the past and what has happened in the past. I'm interested in what's coming up for the future, because arts organizations right now are putting together their budgets, they're putting together their fundraising plans, and they're putting together their programs for the seasons in the future.

I've spoken to a number of large and small arts organizations, who basically are telling me: "Is the government asking me" — asking them — "to program with less programming?" Are they asking them to plan for less staff?

I guess my question is, first off, because I haven't heard the minister confirm it…. I would like to ask the minister: could he confirm for me that his service plan for his ministry shows that he plans on cutting the budget for arts and culture by 50 percent in 2010-2011 and 2011-12?

[1500]

Hon. B. Bennett: I truly hope that the member is not going around Vancouver telling people that there is no possible way for the government to increase budgets for arts and culture and heritage — or anything else, for that matter, but in particular for arts and culture — in the out-years of a three-year budget cycle, which is what I think I just heard him say. I think I just heard him say that you can't do that.

For the benefit of stakeholders…. I've kind of given up on trying to explain this to the member, but if there are any stakeholders listening, it's important for them to know that even though you have a three-year budget cycle, you do have individual annual cycles within that. Each year, whether you do supplementary budgets or not — the member is correct; there won't be any supplementary budgets in the future — you still have that opportunity in the annual budget cycle to change what you have forecast two years prior.

We will have an opportunity over the next 13 months to take a close read of what's happening in the economy and to increase the arts and culture budget, if we're able to do that, for 2010-11. Then we would probably take the same approach for 2011-12, depending on how the economy is going.

Just to summarize, government is not prevented from increasing an annual ministry budget on an annual basis. That has nothing to do with supplementary budgets.

With regard to the member's question about those two out-years, I think the member has stated himself — and I have stated myself on a number of occasions, on this past Thursday and then so far here this afternoon — that 2010-11 and 2011-12 do contain the core reductions that that member has referred to. The actual amount is $7 million less to the B.C. Arts Council in '10-11 and '11-12. Those are the two years that I'm committed to trying to find resources for as we go forward.

S. Herbert: I don't know if the minister was listening to somebody else, but I've never said that the government cannot increase the budget for arts and culture. In fact, I've been saying over and over that the government needs to give its head a shake, wake up and realize that this is a good investment.

The B.C. Arts Council's own study, as put out by the minister, shows that for every dollar the government has invested, they get $1.36 back in return. The Conference Board of Canada shows that it's much higher, more like $1.86. It's an investment, as the minister seems to agree but at the same time seems to argue. "Well, it's too bad.

[ Page 14105 ]

It's tough times. We should cut the budget by up to 50 percent." Oh, but he'll try and get the money back.

Well, the government could have kept the funding there. That's a real possibility — could have kept core funding there. That's a real possibility. It's something the minister could have fought harder for. He could have said: "We're going to go back to the table and put this money back." He can still do that. The budget hasn't passed yet.

If he's really committed to finding that money, I'm wondering if he's going to go and ask his Finance Minister to put that money back.

Hon. B. Bennett: The member, I'm sure, is aware that a goodly portion of the $7 million that we're discussing today is the result of lower interest rates earned by the BC150 fund and the other legacy fund. If interest rates were where I think most people, not just in British Columbia but in the rest of the world…. If they were where the experts thought they were going to be, we wouldn't be talking about $7 million. We might be talking about $3 million. That's a good part of what we're talking about.

The discussion went way wider and broader than we intended it to, I guess, on Thursday, and it appears like it's going to go way broader than it should be going today.

[1505]

I've answered any question that the member has put forward with regard to the supplementary budget of $15.1 million. I'm happy to answer any specific questions that the member has about that $15.1 million. Otherwise, I just don't see that we're making any progress here.

S. Herbert: I've got to say I'm disappointed in the minister's response. This is the minister who is supposed to be standing up for Tourism, Culture and the Arts, but who's brought in a service plan which shows 50 percent cuts coming in 2010, 2011 and 2012. That's not growing our future. That's smashing it to the ground, and I'm ashamed of what's going on in this House.

The minister could say that he's going to go to the Finance Minister to debate, could say that he's going to do that for the arts and culture industry, but there's no response. The minister wants a specific question; I will give him a specific question.

The Chair: Member. Member.

Point of Order

Hon. T. Christensen: Point of order, Madam Chair. I understand that the supplementary estimates are before the House. A budget was introduced a couple of weeks ago. I understand that if we're able to get through the supplementary estimates and vote on those, there will be some future opportunity to debate the budget. Perhaps the Chair could direct the member to keep his comments to the supplementary estimates so that we can get those completed.

C. Evans: Hon. Chair, I just wanted to congratulate you on this debate, which I hear as precisely on the subject of supplementary estimates and how they will develop and grow and as allowing people on the outside to see exactly what the supplementary estimates are about. I heard the questions about: would there be future…? So I think you're running a great debate, and you don't really have to worry how these two gentlemen are running it.

The Chair: Thank you, Members. The Chair has allowed, I think, considerable latitude during the entire supplemental estimate debate.

However, I do take the comments of the Minister of Children and Family Development. I believe that the recent comments are, in fact, straying away from the debate on the supplemental estimates.

So Member, if you would keep your remarks relevant to the supplementary estimates. Continue, Member.

Debate Continued

S. Herbert: Arts groups are asked repeatedly to think ahead and plan for the future. Is the minister advising them — based on his service plan and this one-time-only supplementary funding before the massive cuts come in 2010, 2011 and 2012 — that they should be planning on cutting staff and programming that they provide to this community?

Hon. B. Bennett: No, actually, it's not me that's going around the province spreading doom and gloom within the arts and culture budget with the obvious intention of earning political points. It's not me that's doing that. It's that member over there that's travelling around the province here for the last two weeks spreading fear and gloom and doom amongst the arts and culture community, and he's doing it purposely, strictly to gain political points in his own riding, where he has a lot of voters who are in the arts and culture community. He's trying to do it for his political masters, the NDP party.

Member, if you want to hear the truth, that's the truth. Now, you've mentioned tourism. I've heard your radio clips, and you mentioned tourism again. You haven't asked one….

The Chair: Minister. Minister, through the Chair.

Hon. B. Bennett: Hon. Chair, the member has mentioned tourism a number of times both through the media and here. Not one question on tourism. Does the NDP care about tourism? No. They don't care about tourism.

[ Page 14106 ]

We've more than doubled the budget for tourism. What did the member's leader say in 2005 when we said that we want to give them more hotel room tax? The member's leader said: "No, we don't want to give Tourism B.C. more hotel room tax." So the member shouldn't lecture me about funding tourism or about funding arts and culture, because this government's record stands up against the record of the NDP government from the 1990s very, very well.

S. Herbert: I think it's interesting that the minister would suggest that it's me running around the province spreading doom and gloom. Last time I checked, it's his ministry's service plan which is spreading the doom and gloom, because this minister has watched over while the arts and culture budget has been gutted by this government. It's not me spreading the doom and gloom. It's this document signed by the minister that's spreading the doom and gloom. Anybody can look it up themselves.

[1510]

The journalists phone. They want to know about it because this minister claims that everything is fine. Last time I checked, the numbers in here are not fine, acceptable or going to do anything except devastate our arts and culture industry.

So for the minister, I remember. I looked through the Hansard last time. He said: "Stop sending e-mails. Don't tell people about this." I'm telling people about it because it's wrong, and it shouldn't happen in this House.

I ask again to the minister: how many jobs…? Arts groups are just like business groups. They plan more than one year in advance, and because the minister's only got supplementary, one-time-only funding before massive cuts come in his own plan, I'm asking him what they should do to plan for the future. Should they be planning on a budget increase? I don't think so, based on his numbers. What should they be planning for? Budget cuts? Should that be what they're planning for, Mr. Minister?

Hon. B. Bennett: The member continues to insist that he hasn't said what he has said within the arts and culture community. I read into the record last week — I won't bother doing that again; I think I read it in twice — what he said about the $15.1 million, which is the supplementary budget, which is the topic of our discussion here in the House this afternoon. The member has said that the facts don't bear out that this $15.1 million is going to help the arts and culture community. That's just wrong, and he shouldn't be saying it.

I can say, for the member's benefit, that in 2007-08 this government…. In addition to the funding that went through the B.C. Arts Council, in addition to $50 million into the art gallery and in addition to the BC150 legacy fund of $150 million, we put $19.8 million — this is just in 2007-08 — into the arts and culture community through B.C. Lotteries. That will continue into the future.

We also, just a few days ago, announced another $6.2 million that went into the arts and culture community through the B.C. Arts Council, and 90 different communities received that money. We put $350,000 into grants to 20 different arts organizations in November, just a few months ago. That was made possible by the province's $150 million BC150 cultural fund.

In September we put $100,000 into the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra. That included their Asia tour. It was actually $250,000 in total, I think. In September of this past fall $600,000 went to 600 B.C. artists who are participating in B.C. Scene. Also in September 270 artists and organizations received $7.1 million in that round of B.C. Arts Council grants.

For the member to suggest that we are abandoning arts and culture in this province, given the investment that we have made, given what we are doing with this supplementary budget and given my commitment and the government's commitment to try and improve the budgets, going forward, for those out-years….

They are 13 months away. The axe doesn't fall, Member. The axe doesn't fall tomorrow. We've got 13 months to try and improve the situation. I've made a commitment to try to do that, and I will follow through on that commitment.

S. Herbert: Well, where I come from, the ultimate commitment is doing what you say you're going to be doing, and this is the service plan that shows what the minister is going to be doing. The budget of this government shows what they are going to be doing. So I think it's a bit rich for him to say: "That is our commitment. I will pledge for 13 months that I will look around and try and find the money."

If he could do that, it would be in here. I hope that there's something that we can do, because on my side, I'm saying: "Restore the funding." I'm saying: "Talk to your Finance Minister right now, and restore the funding." You don't need to wait 13 months to do it. You could go talk to him right now. You could tell him you're going to resign if the funding is not returned because you care that much about the sector.

[1515]

The Chair: Member, we've already, I think, spoken of the appropriateness of that line of questioning. So if you would move on, please.

S. Herbert: I'm wondering if the minister could explain to me what good things happen in communities across B.C. because of this $7 million. I don't need the list. We've heard I don't know how many times now about what they did in the past.

[ Page 14107 ]

Can you tell me what this $7 million will do for your community?

Hon. B. Bennett: I'm going to make a point that I have made already. I'm going to make it again, not so much for the benefit of the member, who I suspect already knows this, but for the benefit of anyone in the arts and culture community.

When you project out three years with a budget, you have the year that is right in front of you, and obviously, you have to get that right. If you have the capacity for a supplementary budget like we do this year, you can make some change just before you go into that fiscal year. However, with the two out-years, you have opportunity through the annual budget cycle to change those budgets.

For the member to suggest that they are frozen in stone and that they are not going to change is wrong. It's worse than wrong; it's actually disingenuous. It's a deliberate attempt, I think, in my opinion, to frighten people.

The member has used the word "rich" to describe my commitment, and that's fair enough. This is the venue where we say these kinds of things. I do want to remind the member of what he said. This is what he said. This is a quote from his newsletter, February 20. "The Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts has suggested that the provincial government is providing an additional $15.1 million for arts, culture and heritage. This statement is not backed up by the facts."

That's what the member said. I'm not making this stuff up. This is what the member said. The member is deliberately going around this province trying to frighten people, and I just don't see how that can be constructive.

The member asked me, you know, how the $7 million was going to help in communities, but he doesn't want me to give any examples. That's an interesting way to put the question. I can stand here all afternoon and read out how the last $6.8 million that was awarded a few days ago — I think it was Wednesday or Thursday of last week — will be distributed. I know that….

I think the member just inquired as to how the money is going to be spent in my riding. I believe that was his question. Some of the money…. I know there was a grant that went to the Canadian Museum of Rail Travel, which is one of the top railway museums in North America. The curator, Garry Anderson, is a person of heroic proportions. He deserves enormous credit for what he's been able to create in the city of Cranbrook.

There is also money going to the Fernie Arts Council. I'm doing this from memory. There is a second grant going to Cranbrook to the Symphony of the Kootenays. There are grants, frankly, going to a lot of the small towns — many, many small towns — and big towns all across the province. That $7 million that the B.C. Arts Council will distribute will also go across the province.

How they will spend it…. As I stated very clearly last week on a number of different answers that I gave, that money is spent by the B.C. Arts Council the way that they think is best for the arts and culture community in this province. They adjudicate all of the applications, and they pay out on the basis of a rational, fair adjudication. We don't tell them how to spend the $7 million.

S. Herbert: It's just interesting that the minister is trying to pick a fight with me when I'm trying to talk about the future that's coming for arts and culture in this province under his leadership. It's his own service plan now.

Have I ever said: "It's never possible to increase the budget"? No. In fact, in the question and the statement right before, I told him that. I told him he should do it now, and he should commit to doing that. He should talk to his Finance Minister, but he won't do that for some reason that I can't understand.

[1520]

The Finance Minister won't invest in the arts and culture industry. I can't understand that either, especially when every study that I've read and the studies that the minister has referenced in the past support that view — that it's an investment for the future. It's an investment in jobs. It's an economic stimulus.

Earlier he said: "Why don't you ask me about tourism?" Because this is actually about arts and culture, Minister. This is about heritage, Minister. That's what this supplementary debate is about. If you want to talk about tourism, we can have a town hall or something like that, but that's not what this is about today. I'm talking about arts and culture.

He suggested that it was wrong for me to suggest that this was not additional funding for arts and culture. Well, if the minister looked at his own budget, he would understand that the core funding for B.C. Arts Council has been slashed in this upcoming fiscal year, and they're replacing that funding. That's not additional funding, in my book, when you replace something you took away.

The minister has rightly pointed out that there's a small bump-up. So I'll give him that. There's been a small bump-up this one time only, before the axe drops next time around because of what the minister suggests is the right way to go forward in his service plan.

Now, under here in his service plan, it talks all about the great things we're going to do for arts, culture and tourism. It talks about how we're going to be building so that companies are sustainable. I don't get how one-time-only supplementary funding before the axe drops under his service plan is going to help him do that. It doesn't make any sense to me or anyone in the arts and culture industry.

I appreciate the minister speaking about his constituency and what difference the arts and culture make in his constituency. I think it's about $83,000 which goes

[ Page 14108 ]

directly to some of those local groups, and I'm glad about it. Why I mention it is because I want the minister to recognize that under his plan, that funding will be severely restricted — about 50 percent under 2010, 2011, 2012 — because of the cuts that he's bringing into this ministry, unless something else happens, which he could be doing right now. He could be changing that forecast right now, but he chose to sign off on this document. That's his commitment for the future.

I'd like to ask the minister how this one-time funding and then massive cuts in 2010, 2011 and 2012, as outlined in his service plan, make arts and culture organizations sustainable over the long term?

Hon. B. Bennett: Clearly, to use the member's own words…. He said: "I don't get it." I don't think he does get it. I don't think that he gets what it's like to be responsible for the taxpayers' money, to go into a fiscal year projecting a huge surplus and to find, a few months before the end of the year, that not only are you not going to have your huge surplus, but you're going to be challenged to even balance the budget.

The decline in revenue to the province has no precedent. There is no precedent for what we've just gone through and are still going through in North America with the economy. When in late fall we realized what was happening — it was like a train speeding up going down a hill; it just seemed to get worse every day that went by — all of the ministers in this government took it upon themselves to see what they could do to help out, to make sure that we did balance this year's budget but also to make sure that we were able to fund the core services that we provide in this province.

We've increased the health care budget in this province every single year that I've been here as an MLA — eight years in a row. You know, I always hear mumbling when I or any other member on this side of the House mentions that we've increased the health care budget. Frankly, you've got members of the opposition, including the leader, running around the province right now. She was in Kelowna today or yesterday saying that we're cutting health care. I mean, it just seems like they believe that if you repeat a fabrication often enough, people will believe it.

[1525]

We went through an exercise that's very difficult, I can tell you. It's like the experience that you go through, husband and wife and family, when all of a sudden, one of the husband or wife loses their job. You have to basically sit down at the kitchen table and decide what you are going to be able to continue to do until you find that second job again.

We went through that exercise this fall and also in January, and we found $1.9 billion within our ministries. In my case we found some savings in tourism administration and in travel — my minister's office, for example, and senior staff travel — and in some statutory type of advertising. We didn't reduce anything having to do with marketing tourism in the province, but we found some money in those other categories, and it wasn't enough.

It wasn't enough to allow government to support the essential services that the taxpayers of British Columbia expect from their provincial government such as health care and education, both K-to-12 and advanced education. This is certainly no time to be reducing our investment in training, going into a difficult economic time like this. This difficult economic time will be a time when workers will want to go back and finish up their apprenticeship or go further with their training. Care and services for children, care and services for disabled adults — all of those things are extremely important to the people of British Columbia.

That is not to minimize the importance of the environmental aspects of our life in B.C., or the arts and culture aspects of our life here in British Columbia or any other aspect of our life here in British Columbia that the provincial government is involved in. It's not to minimize the importance of those things at all. It's just that when you're elected to govern, you're elected to make difficult choices. So we have made some difficult choices.

Now, we were fortunate in the arts and culture community that even though we had to make that difficult choice, we were able to find $15.1 million that we could use to provide a sustaining three-year budget for heritage — something they haven't had for a long, long time — and the $7 million that we're giving to the B.C. Arts Council to keep them whole throughout 2009-2010.

Given the economic climate that we're in — to be able to go through that exercise that I just described and collaborate with my colleagues in cabinet and in caucus and make those difficult decisions — I think, frankly, that this is a much more positive scenario than what it could have been.

Going forward — again, to repeat myself, for the benefit of any arts and culture stakeholders that are out there…. Certainly, they have my 100 percent commitment that I will see what I can do about that $7 million going forward in 2010-11 and 2011-12.

S. Herbert: Well, I appreciate the statement from the hon. minister, but it really leads me to believe, from what he's said, that he doesn't see supporting the arts as a core investment. He doesn't see investing in arts and culture as wise economically, even though he says it is. Based on his actions, he's shown that he does not appreciate that, especially now in a time of economic trouble.

The arts and culture industry is one of the best investments you can make at this time for building the economy, for a creative economy, for the future of this province.

Basically, the minister refused to answer my question about how one-time-only funding, before massive cuts, makes arts and culture organizations sustainable over

[ Page 14109 ]

the long term. Even though that's his stated goal in this document, they don't jibe, because I guess he understands that it can't. There's no way that what he plans to do to the arts and culture industry is going to make it sustainable over the long term. Otherwise, he would commit right now to fighting to put it right back, right now. But he won't do that. It will be sometime in the future: "Maybe we'll try."

I think we've got to look at his own government's facts and the Conference Board of Canada's facts. Investing in arts and culture is one of the best things you can do in a recession, if not the best, because of the economic spinoffs for local economies.

He spoke earlier about the wonderful benefits that arts and culture play for local communities. Right on. Right on. That's what we need to hear, but it needs to be backed up by facts. It needs to be backed up by numbers, and by that I mean dollars — not cuts, not the axe knocking at the door.

I guess the minister is suggesting that arts and culture organizations need to be preparing for layoffs in the future. They need to be preparing for fewer programs. I'm already hearing from arts and culture organizations, who are telling me that they are planning for that.

[1530]

If the minister was going to actually come through for them, he would have come through. But he's justified it by saying that he's protecting the core. Well, that's old-style economic thinking. That's not understanding the benefit the creative economy is playing right now in this province — one of the number one job creators; one of the real leaders in leveraging funding from across the country; and one of the leaders in making sure that people have work and that communities are healthy, communities have enjoyment, communities get to know themselves.

That's what the arts are about to me. I wish it were the same for this government, but it's not.

[S. Hammell in the chair.]

This has been an absolute failure of this government — failure to act for the future and putting us back, oh, probably about 20 years. I heard a local arts organization put out a song recently, "Total Eclipse of the Arts," which talked about how we're putting us back into the 1980s in terms of supporting arts and culture. That's what it does here.

I'm disappointed that the minister wouldn't answer that question. I'm disappointed that he wouldn't come forward and say that he commits that he will resign if he cannot get that funding increased, because really, as Arts and Culture Minister, he says he's committed, but maybe not to threaten his own seat. That's disappointing to me.

I've got a whole bunch more questions, but I haven't gotten, really, any answers from him, except for: "Oh, it's just fine. Everybody should be happy. But the cuts to arts and culture are necessary."

It's an investment, Minister. It's an investment for the future.

I finish off debate at this point.

Hon. B. Bennett: Well, a couple things. Unlike the member, I don't question his sincerity with regard to the importance of arts and culture and his personal commitment to arts and culture. I believe that the member really does care about arts and culture. It's disappointing to me that he seems to have to characterize his position as personal against me and to question my commitment to arts and culture.

I am committed to doing everything I possibly can over the next two years and a bit to make sure that we have the level of funding for arts and culture that we've had in this province over the last few years. The member doesn't know me well, but my commitment is a good commitment.

I would remind the member on the way out the door from these estimates that he, in fact, did vote for a balanced budget. So for him to come into this House and say, "We should just spend. We should just get the money, borrow it, get it someplace" — off the money tree, perhaps — "spend it and go into deficit this year" is an irresponsible suggestion, because he, in fact, as with his colleagues, did vote for a balanced budget.

As I alluded to a few minutes ago, it's a difficult process. Members on the other side who have been in government will be able to understand what it's like to go through that process and have to make difficult decisions.

Having said that, let me just close by saying that it is an honour to represent or be the minister for the arts and culture community. I love music, I love art, I love dance, and I love theatre — probably just as much as my critic does. So perhaps after today we can work together instead of being at odds in this political theatre. We can work together and see what we can do to accomplish the goal that I know that he and I share.

Vote 42(S): ministry operations, $15,100,000 — approved.

The Chair: Members will stand recessed for five minutes.

The committee recessed from 3:35 p.m. to 3:42 p.m.

[S. Hammell in the chair.]

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES:

MINISTRY OF TRANSPORTATION

AND INFRASTRUCTURE

On Vote 43(S): ministry operations, $20,000,000.

M. Karagianis: In looking at this $20 million supplemental that's being asked for here, it says very specifically:

[ Page 14110 ]

"…to invest in significant road maintenance and rehabilitation projects." Clearly, this is a pre-election fund to go and throw money around and perhaps try and win some favour back in rural B.C.

I would like to ask: what are the priorities for maintenance in this fund?

Hon. K. Falcon: Just to correct the member's characterization, this actually follows up from the Premier's October statement, where he announced a series of economic measures in his ten-point plan to help rejuvenate the economy and inject some confidence into the economy of British Columbia.

We committed at that time up to $20 million for local transportation projects — projects that would utilize local hires, local equipment, often referred to as day labour — particularly and primarily across the rural parts of the province. Those are the areas that are being impacted, we think, most definitely as a result of the economic downturn.

The investments will go primarily to the kinds of things that are jobs that are important work to get done but work that also can be moved ahead with quickly. That would be things like brushing, pavement patching. It would include gravelling on the side road network, improvements to bridges. It would also include crushing material that will be used in the future to address our infrastructure needs.

The idea is that we want to essentially get people working over the next few months immediately. It also acts as a bridge as we work to negotiate with the federal government for additional infrastructure investments that we can make throughout the province that will provide even more projects above and beyond those which are already underway through our ministry.

[1545]

M. Karagianis: So the priority is, then, for maintenance. Is this all being done through existing maintenance contracts?

Hon. K. Falcon: It is being done through our local district offices and the maintenance contractors. This is all additional work that can be utilized for the benefit of the public at large.

M. Karagianis: How would this work be outside of the normal maintenance expectations of any of the contractors right now? You made mention of things like patching. Are these not part of the normal budgetary process — the normal workload and work expectation of these contractors? What is extraordinary about this that we're looking for extra money?

Hon. K. Falcon: The criteria that we put in place were that it would involve new work and new jobs, that it would involve local equipment and local hires, to make sure that folks who wouldn't normally have the opportunity are given the opportunity to provide the work.

It is all work that is identified as additional work. If you will, it would be the kinds of things we would love to get done that might not be part of the normal maintenance contract but that we would be able to add on to get things done. We identify that in cooperation with the individual maintenance contractors and through our district offices, in terms of identifying what kind of work that would be.

M. Karagianis: How has the minister determined the priorities of these jobs? In other words, are you looking at where there's been, say, more frost heave, more damage? We've certainly heard from communities across northern British Columbia about the problems of potholes and the ongoing concerns around maintenance of some of the northern routes.

How have the maintenance priorities been determined? Are they going to start in the north? Are they going to start in any given place, and what is the time line for these projects?

Hon. K. Falcon: What we have done is, working through our district offices and working through the maintenance contractors, identified a range of the kind of work that could get done immediately. The criterion we want to use is that it be work that will be underway and completed by the end of March. We want to ensure that these dollars are put to work as quickly as possible. We're trying to accelerate a number of jobs and opportunities.

The emphasis and the breakdown is gravelling, pavement patching, brushing on side roads, improvements to bridges and dollars being spent on crushing material that will be used in the future to improve our road and highway infrastructure. So those are the categories.

What we wanted to do was make sure that those dollars got out into communities right across the province, but we wanted to make sure they got into communities over the immediate period of time so that they acted as a bridge while we are in the course of moving forward other potential projects in cooperation with the federal government and the economic stimulus program that the federal government has been talking about.

[1550]

M. Karagianis: So there are sort of two parts of this. The funds are being earmarked for both road maintenance and rehabilitation. Can the minister explain what the difference between the rehabilitation will be, as well as maintenance? Maintenance would be fairly obvious — potholes, patching, gravelling, regravelling, that kind of thing. But certainly, some of these…. The list that the minister has just given us of paving and things could

[ Page 14111 ]

very likely be new roads. Will the rehabilitation be classified as any kind of new corridors anywhere?

Hon. K. Falcon: The member is correct in her characterization. If I understood the member's question correctly, I think she's correct, in that it would not involve new bridges or new roads. It would be improvements to existing bridges and roads where there is a road and bridge element to the improvements, or it would be, as the member correctly pointed out, gravelling or brushing along the highway or crushing material that will be used.

It will differ depending on the different parts of the province in what the needs are that have been identified by the local contractors and through the district offices. The goal, as I say, was to make sure that it was work that could begin virtually immediately and that it's work that will involve local workers and local hired equipment so that we could get that activity happening as soon as possible.

M. Karagianis: At this point I do need to ask. The minister is very careful to say that this won't involve any new roads or bridges, and I can understand that. Those are significant projects. But in the case of things like resource roads….

Interjections.

The Chair: Member.

M. Karagianis: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

The minister has been very clear that this is not about new bridges or roads. But in the case of rehabilitation of roads, what exactly is the scope of that? What could that involve? It seems to me that this is blacktop politics at work just before an election. How far is the rehabilitation going to go on some of these roads throughout the province?

Hon. K. Falcon: Again, I remind the member that back in October the Premier and government, under their ten-point economic plan, identified that one of the steps we would be taking was to accelerate $20 million worth of the kind of maintenance work that could put local people and local equipment to work immediately in communities across the province.

I wouldn't characterize it the way the member talked about. We are facing a global international downdraft here that is epic in its proportions. It requires immediate action by government.

The goal of this government was to make sure that we could do important maintenance work that should and could and would be desirable to have done anyhow but do it by utilizing local labour and local workers immediately — not to spend 12 months talking about how we might be able to do work or talking about how we might be able to put people to work on additional projects above and beyond our already massive transportation and capital investment program across government but how we could do that in the short term, immediately.

[1555]

The blacktop issues that the member opposite mentions have to do with patching — some small pavement jobs. Granted, they may not be large in the scheme of things, but they'll be very important work for the individuals and the equipment operators that are utilizing that work. It will involve gravelling and brushing work that will be certainly important to local communities and the side road network. They will be important safety issues, particularly on the issue of brushing and gravelling and pavement patching.

These are important economic activities that will employ British Columbians immediately; put them to work immediately; allow them to utilize their equipment, which may be idled as a result of the slowdown in the private sector economy; and, as I say, act as that important bridge as we continue to move forward other major transportation initiatives right across the province.

M. Karagianis: I know that in the budget one of the things that the government has talked about was new roads for oil exploration and mining. Will any of these dollars go into those kinds of initiatives?

Hon. K. Falcon: The short answer is no. This wouldn't be for the roads that the member mentions, in terms of rural resource roads specific to the Peace country, where the oil and gas activity is taking place.

We already, in my ministry…. I'm going by memory, but this year alone we are investing close to $100 million in rural resource roads to encourage and continue to stimulate the extraordinary economic activity that's taking place in the Peace country, the northeast part of the province. These are much more modest in nature in terms of the kind of work that is involved but, as I say, very important for those local equipment operators and those local workers that are finding themselves idled as a result of some of the slowdown that's taken place in the private sector activity.

The $20 million itself, though, because it's over a relatively short period, does have a magnified impact. It will be significant, because we're trying to move those dollars out rapidly and put people to work immediately.

The magnification of that investment — because it's not over 12 months; it's over a very short period of weeks — does allow people to get to work almost immediately and does it in such a way that it acts as an important bridge to get us to the point where the other projects that we have moving forward will be able to complement the investment that's being made through the $20 million economic stimulus.

[ Page 14112 ]

M. Karagianis: I have no doubt that it will have significant impact. It is blacktop politics, and we are 60 days from an election. I'm sure $20 million in small communities will certainly have its effect.

I asked earlier about the priorities for these projects. Is there going to be any focus on communities like those that have been so hard hit by the forestry downturn? Is there going to be a focus on those communities first and foremost to make sure that if, in fact, there are some new jobs created, those communities that are really devastated by the current situation in forestry are going to be the first to benefit from the significant dollars that the minister is going to start spending?

[1600]

Hon. K. Falcon: The member keeps referring to blacktop politics. I should remind the member that in our budget over the next few years our combined investment from the province and our partners in transportation investment projects is $3.3 billion. It is continuing what has been the largest transportation investment program in the history of the province of British Columbia. That has been going on year after year after year.

I can assure the member that $20 million by itself does not, in my view, even begin to touch on the scope and scale of work that is underway.

What is unique about these dollars…. The reason why the Premier committed to this $20 million as part of the ten-point economic plan he laid out in October was to recognize that, as the private sector activity is dropping off dramatically in some parts of the province — in virtually all parts of the province, but certainly in some parts of the province more than others — the Premier wanted to make sure that we had dollars that were moving out immediately to assist those that are impacted in communities, in every community right across this province, that they would have the ability to undertake work — small projects, granted, but important projects for many of those contractors.

As I say, it will be in every part of the province, and there will be projects involving all aspects of the kind of maintenance that the public would like to see anyhow, in terms of gravelling and pavement patching and improvements to brushing and highways.

It is something that certainly has been well received in virtually every community right across the province, and I'm proud of the fact that the Premier was recognizing back in October the scale of the economic forces that were buffeting British Columbia from around the world. Though not of our making, it required an immediate response, and that's exactly what this $20 million is achieving.

N. Macdonald: For the minister's benefit, I'm going to be talking mainly about local issues. The first thing is that I just want to talk a little bit about maintenance issues. We have, of course, ongoing maintenance issues, and these are partially inevitable, just given the nature of the area that we live in.

Before I ask specific questions, I just want to pass along just how receptive the communication has been with local highways staff. That's always been the case, and that's something that I think that the minister needs to hear — that as issues come up, both with the contractor and also with the staff that represents him there, there's good communication, and that the challenges are… We'll work them out, and we would expect no less from the Ministry of Transportation.

I do want to talk about a couple of things that the minister will be familiar with. The Trans-Canada Highway — there are signs up that seem to indicate that four-laning will be coming relatively soon. Now, I think most people realize, given the time right now, that there's possibly federal money coming. What I would say…. I think something that the minister has touched on, which is very accurate, is that the forest industry has gone through an unprecedented downturn.

What the minister will know is that, with the Park Bridge project and actually its predecessor, you had a very high percentage of local workers. The contractors, in particular, have a workforce that easily moves into some of the work that's done on these highway projects. As the minister would be familiar with, up to 70 percent of the workers on the Park Bridge were actually from Golden, the Golden area, which is very, very significant.

While, obviously, it fits well outside the $20 million, part of what the minister has said is that this is going to be preparation work for larger projects. I realize that there are particular projects that need to be done along the Trans-Canada. I'd be interested in hearing about the Donald Bridge. I think the minister has likely, certainly, seen the pictures from Donald Bridge, and that very clearly would be a priority, regardless of what was going on.

What we have talked about in the past, what I think is important, is that idea of moving through with perhaps a ten-year plan — which is something that has been talked about by mayors; you've heard it very many times — of moving that four-laning across from the border all the way through to Kamloops and perhaps to Cache Creek.

Can the minister give me some idea of where we are with that as a project? I know that we've often talked about waiting. I mean, it's decades. We've always talked about getting federal money.

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It seems clear that, beyond the investments that have been made by the federal government, there's also an opportunity to just move that project along. So can you give me — it would be interesting to refer specifically to that Donald Bridge; as well, there are also the remaining phases of the Kicking Horse project — some sense there, because as the minister will know, the most expensive

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part is the one that we haven't started yet, which is likely to be the tunnel.

I've given you a whole bunch of things to talk about, but I'd be very interested to hear about it. Like I say, that 70 percent local at this time right now, and likely over the next number of years, is going to be critically important.

Hon. K. Falcon: I thank the member for the question. The member is quite right. I remember the former mayor of Golden once saying to me that the Kicking Horse Canyon improvements were essentially employing his entire community. Though I suspect that was a bit of hyperbole, I think he wasn't far off the mark, and the member reflects that when he correctly points out that there is a huge component of local work and workers that go into these projects.

As the member knows, we are continuing on with those improvements. The member is correct to point out that local mayors have called for…. What they would like to see is a ten-year sort of commitment between the federal and provincial governments to improve the Trans-Canada from the Alberta border to Kamloops. The federal government is unable or unwilling to enter into that kind of a ten-year commitment. They haven't done it anywhere across Canada, and they tell me they're not going to start in British Columbia.

There is a way we can achieve the same thing, as far as I'm concerned, without having something that says we'll do this over ten years, and that is to make significant investments in the Trans-Canada. I can promise and assure the member that I have been, as recently as last week, talking to the federal government.

I had a very good meeting with Minister John Baird, the federal Minister of Transport and Infrastructure in Ottawa. I indicated again to Minister Baird and to Minister Stockwell Day, who is the key minister for British Columbia in terms of dealing with the province, that the Trans-Canada Highway remains a critical corridor for the province.

The signs that the member refers to that start to refer to improvements being made on the Trans-Canada are to reflect the fact that we are making a significant commitment as a province, and we are optimistically expecting the federal government to join with us on a number of improvements along the Trans-Canada corridor to fulfil exactly what the member correctly wants to see, as do we, which is a continued, significant investment in the Trans-Canada to improve safety and improve four-laning right from Kamloops to the Alberta border.

The $65 million right now is continuing on the improvements that have been made to the Kicking Horse Canyon. They're underway, as the member knows. We want to do more. The member references Donald Bridge. Donald Bridge is certainly on my radar screen in terms of projects that I would like to see us moving forward with. The one thing that we have to be careful of as a province is that we don't want to get started on projects that we know could be cost-shared with the federal government, because any dollars we spend are sunk dollars. We wouldn't be able to get cost-sharing on them.

We have encouraged the federal government to have a sense of urgency about the fact that we need to get these projects underway and employ British Columbians as soon as we can, and I received a very positive message from the federal government. I believe that we are close to receiving some sign-offs on a number and range of projects that would provide significant benefit to the province and the travelling public, especially on the Trans-Canada.

N. Macdonald: I thank you for that, and of course, the urgency…. I'm sure that the minister has passed this along. It has to do with also trying to maintain a very skilled group of contractors that we will need when, inevitably, there's an upturn in the industry. We need these people to remain in the area, and we need them to remain engaged, and this is a very constructive way of doing it.

The Donald Bridge in particular…. I know the minister will be aware that there's a lot of discussion and concern, not only about longstanding alignment issues and things like that but also deterioration issues on the bridge. People talk about it, and I'm sure the minister has information on that.

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The Trans-Canada would be one issue. As I've mentioned also, there are maintenance issues that from time to time come up. It seems to work to have that flow up through local ministry staff, and we do that.

The other issue I'd like to talk about is Highway 95, as it passes through Golden. This is something that may be more long term and perhaps doesn't directly relate to the 20 million, but I think the minister would be interested anyway. For a long time the community has been looking at a new bridge. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes back 20, 30 years. Certainly, there's an opportunity with a realignment of 95. The minister is always pretty good about actually knowing these sites, so I'll presume that you do. The bridge that goes through the community could also be realigned.

I just want to get some sense as to where that would be within the plans for the government in terms of making that upgrade.

Hon. K. Falcon: The member is correct. That is an issue, with respect to that bridge in town on Highway 95. I've had a number of discussions with at least the former mayor. I haven't had a chance to meet the new mayor yet, but I have no doubt that will still be an issue. We have been in discussions with them to try and figure out a way that we could sensibly deal with that issue.

I usually hasten to point out to them that we have focused our attention really heavily on the Trans-Canada,

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for obvious reasons. Some of the improvements that the member talked about or improvements that we would like to see done are higher up on our radar screen in terms of urgency. But we have been in continuous discussions, I think I would say, with respect to Highway 95 and the local bridge there.

I forget the name of the bridge, but it's a wooden one, as I recall.

Interjection.

Hon. K. Falcon: No. It's that small one right in Golden — right?

It's still on our radar screen, but we haven't got to an answer yet in terms of the best way of dealing with it. I guess that is the simple answer.

N. Macdonald: The next question I have is one that you're familiar with as well. It would be from the improvements to Highways 95 and 93 that come from Radium through to pretty well Fairmont. In those areas, especially during the summer or on weekends, there's incredibly heavy traffic. I think if you took an overall traffic count over the course of the year, it might not seem as high as it is — but incredibly high.

There have been improvements made in terms of turnout lanes and so on. There has also been talk about a circle, I think, that we're going to put in at the junction with Invermere. There remain turnout areas that your staff would be familiar with just near the Tenaha or the Akisqnuk turnoff and places like that.

Just some sense of how this $20 million or other funds — how you plan to proceed on those projects.

Hon. K. Falcon: The member's right. This is an area that we have spent some time and some dollars on recently to try and make some improvements. I think it's one of those areas where there will be continuous improvement being made.

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We know it is important for the tourism sector, and I would agree with the member in his description of the fact that there are peak times of the year where you do have heavy traffic in that area. We are going to be continuing to invest dollars in making continuous improvements. I know discussions are underway and some planning has been done on the next stages of improvements.

I don't have the details a