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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, April 10, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Volume 30, Number 5 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC FOURTH SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ........................................................................................................ Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon.

Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon.

Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General and Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations............... Hon. John van Dongen Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for ActNow B.C. ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Deputy Speaker ...........................................................................................................................................................................

Katherine Whittred Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole................................................................................................................................................. Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E.

George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................ East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, David (NDP) ......................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................ Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon.

Gordon (L).....................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L) .....................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L)........................................................................ Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas............................................................................... John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay................................................................................

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ............................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................Hon.

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Thursday, April 10, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 11205 Tributes ....................................................................................................................... ............................................................ 11205 Del Laverdure Hon. S.

Bond Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 11205 Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ....................................... 11206 Health Professions (Regulatory Reform) Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 25) Hon. G. Abbott Public Safety and Solicitor General (Gift Card Certainty) Statutes Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 17) Hon.

M. de Jong Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 11207 Lilo Petermann L. Mayencourt JET program for disabled persons B. Simpson Air travel between Prince George and Seattle J. Rustad Eco-Sense house in Highlands J. Horgan B.C. athletes at 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing D. MacKay 100th anniversary of Hastings Elementary School S.

Simpson Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 11209 Investigation into tree farm licence land removals B. Ralston Hon. R. Coleman J. Horgan B. Simpson S. Simpson R. Fleming Hon. W. Oppal M. Farnworth Government support for women and children in Bountiful L. Krog Hon. W. Oppal D. Thorne Hon. I. Chong N. Simons Hon. T. Christensen B.C. Place roof replacement N. Macdonald Hon. S. Hagen Disclosure of documents in B.C. Rail court case J. Kwan Hon. W.

Oppal Petitions...................................................................................................................... ............................................................. 11214 B. Simpson

Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 11214 Greenhouse Gas Reduction (Cap and Trade) Act (Bill 18) (continued) On the amendment (continued) M. Sather N. Macdonald G. Robertson D. Routley B. Simpson M. Karagianis J. Horgan N. Simons G. Gentner Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 11244 Estimates: Ministry of Employment and Income Assistance Hon. C. Richmond J. Brar

11205 THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 The House met at 1:34 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Introductions by Members Hon. S. Bond: I'm delighted to say that joining us in the gallery today are two very special people who have an incredible passion for literacy in British Columbia. [1335] I'm pleased to let the House know that Dale Saip is here. He is a trustee on the Delta board of education. He's also the vice-president of business development for the Vancouver Giants. With Dale today is Kay Thody, and she's a consultant with the Giants.

I've had the opportunity to be a partner in their program called Read to Succeed, which is a program the Vancouver Giants have pu t in place. It is wildly successful, and I can tell you when those Vancouver Giants step into a classroom in a very classy way and talk about reading and physical activity, it makes an enormous difference for our students. We're going to talk a little about that program later today. I just want to commend them. Actually, the Van- couver Giants were named the WHL's scholastic team of the year for some of the great work they're doing. I would ask the House to please make them welcome.

Tributes DEL LAVERDURE Hon. S. Bond: On a far less enthusiastic note, on behalf of my colleagues from Prince George North and Prince George–Omineca, I want to share with the House the fact that there is a great deal of sadness in our community today in Prince George. Someone who we care about enormously, who's had a significant impact on northern British Columbia, died yesterday at Hospice House after an eight-month battle with cancer. The publisher of the Prince George Citizen, Del Laverdure leaves an incredible legacy including his wife Vicky and his children Laura, 24; Ben, 21; and Amy, 16.

Del guided the Prince George Citizen as a publisher for the past nine years. More than that, he guided our community as a father, a friend and a frequent volunteer for decades. Among his many volunteer positions as president of the Spirit of the North Health Care Foun- dation, Del dedicated his time to improving health care in northern B.C. We want to send our best thoughts and prayers to Vicky, Laura, Ben and Amy and also to the community, who are grieving today. Introductions by Members D. Chudnovsky: A s r e c e n t l y a s y e s t e r d a y , M r .

Speaker, I reminded you that the two very best high schools in the province are in Vancouver-Kensington. Amazingly, for the second day in a row and lucky for us, we have a group of students from Sir Charles Tupper Secondary School in Vancouver-Kensington visiting with us today with their teachers and supervi- sors. They are a great bunch of kids. We had a chance to chat before. Again, they represent their school wonderfully. Could the House please make them very welcome. Hon. R. Neufeld: It gives me pleasure today to introduce to the House Danielle Armstrong, the executive director for the Fort St.

John division of Big Brothers Big Sisters, an organization that does great work on behalf of all British Columbians — something we're all very proud of. She's here visiting. I had a brief visit with her this morning, and I'd like the House to please make her welcome. J. Horgan: All members will know that in the course of our business, we meet very interesting people and forge new friendships almost every day. I'd like to acknowledge one of my new friends since I was elected t o t h i s p l a c e , L a r r y F o f o n o f , w h o j o i n e d m e f o r l u n c h today.

He also helps me on Fridays with casework and answers the phone. We all have volunteers in our communities like Larry. Would the House please welcome him and maybe pay a tribute to all the people who help us do our work every day. D. MacKay: It's not every day I get a chance to in- troduce somebody from Bulkley Valley–Stikine. Looking up in the gallery, I happen to notice that we have the chair of the Bulkley-Nechako regional district as well as the chair of the North Central Municipal Associa- tion. I'd like the House to welcome Eileen Benedict to the House. Enjoy the session that's going to follow here shortly.

R. Austin: Today it's a pleasure to introduce Ron Craig, who's visiting the Le gislature. Ron is a public health officer with the Northern Health Authority spe- cializing in making sure that we all have safe drinking water in northwest B.C. I ask that the House join me in making him most welcome. Hon. I. Chong: Yesterday I had the honour and privilege of introducing a number of representatives from the Union of B.C. Municipalities executive. Some were able to join us yesterday, and others have joined us today.

I would like to introduce some of the returning members who are here again for a second day watch- ing question period, as well as others. We have today Councillor Sharon Gaetz. She's a director at large, and she represents the city of Chilliwack. [1340] I believe Director Susie Gimse, who is the president of UBCM from the Squamish-Lillooet regional district, is here or about to arrive. Mayor Terry Lake, third vice- president from the city of Kamloops, is here.

11206 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 Director Heath Slee, AKBLG representative from East Kootenay regional district, was here yesterday, I think, as well as Mayor Joe Snopek, director at large representing the town of Creston, and Councillor Barbara Steele, Metro Vancouver rep from the city of Surrey. I hope the House would please make them all welcome once again. D. Routley: I'd like the House to help me make wel- come 37 grade 7 students from Crofton Elementary, who join us in the precinct today. They're joined by ten parents and their teacher Geoff Sutcliffe from Crofton Elementary.

Also, my friend Joy Sheldon-Maxwell is a former teacher in this province, with 25 years teaching the young people of B.C. She joins us here today. Please help me make them all welcome. J. Yap: I would also like to ask the House to join me in welcoming to the precincts a group of 52 grades 6 and 7 students from R.M. Gr auer Elementary School in my riding. They're here with seven chaperones, including the vice-principal Ms. Catherine Ludwig. This is a really enthusiastic group of grades 6 and 7 school children.

When I met th em, I was told that they were looking at me as a celebrity for some reason, and there were all kinds of camera flashes going off. They asked great questions. It was a great meeting. I ask the House to join me in offering a warm wel- come to this group of our future, the students from R.M. Grauer Elementary School. H. Bloy: It's a privilege to stand up and introduce someone today on behalf of my colleagues from the Tri-Cities. We have someone who has worked tirelessly for all of the Tri-Cities to make it a better place to live for everybody.

That's Joanne Granek, executive director of SHARE Family and Community Services. Would the House please make her welcome. Hon. G. Abbott: Today in the gallery we're joined by my correspondence and information officer, Laura Hope. She is here with her friend Kevin Romanin. Although Laura enjoys very much th e legislative proceedings, somehow she has been able to reconcile in her mind the thought of leaving here and having an adventure in South America. I can't personally understand how someone could do that. Nevertheless, I'd ask the House to make them wel- come and wish them happy adventures in South America.

Introduction and First Reading of Bills HEALTH PROFESSIONS (REGULATORY REFORM) AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 Hon. G. Abbott presented a message from his Hon- our the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Health Professions (Regulatory Reform) Amendment Act, 2008. Hon. G. Abbott: I move that Bill 25, the Health Professions (Regulatory Reform) Amendment Act, be introduced and read for a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. G. Abbott: I'm pleased to deliver one of gov- ernment's major commitments in this year's throne speech.

During the Conversation on Health, British Co- lumbians told us that one of the ways to address the sus- tainability challenge in our health care system was to maximize the skills of health care workers. We can widen the scope of practice of nurses, for example, so they can perform some roles presently provided by physicians. We can have pharmacists provide routine prescription re- newals instead of requiring a physician's visit. People want to move to British Columbia, and we want health professionals to move here to practise their skills.

With this legislation, qualified health care workers in other provinces will have their qualifications recog- nized. Internationally trained and qualified physicians will be able to work in British Columbia in their specific areas of expertise with a restricted licence. Qualified Canadian citizens trained abroad will benefit from a new framework to ensure they can work in the health care field for which they are trained. I f w e c a n a t t r a c t m o r e p h y s i c i a n s t o B .

C . a n d h a v e them enter general practice, more people will have ac- cess to a doctor to manage chronic disease issues before they become acute and end up requiring costly interven- tions in our hospitals — again, another example of how we can address the sustainability challenge we face. [1345] Transparency and accoun tability are values we heard in the Conversation on Health. We're taking action today by establishing a health professions review board to review individual registrations by health profession- als that were not approved by professional colleges.

We can also establish heal th profession advisory pan- els that will provide advice on systemwide issues such as entry-to-practice requirements and scope-of-practice ex- pansion requests. We'll be taking action on increasing the transparency of professional colleges when it comes to disciplinary actions regarding their members. With this legislation, the colleges will now be re- quired to publicly disclose the outcomes of disciplinary proceedings, advise the comp lainant of the outcome as well as fund counselling programs for victims of pro- fessional misconduct by one of its members.

In conclusion, the Health Professions (Regulatory Reform) Act will open doors for health professionals and all British Columbians. This legislation also puts in place a new standard of transpar ency and accountability in college registration, inquiry and discipline processes. I move that Bill 25 be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 25, Health Professions (Regulatory Reform) Amendment Act, 2008, introd uced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for sec- ond reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11207 PUBLIC SAFETY AND SOLICITOR GENERAL (GIFT CARD CERTAINTY) STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 H o n . M . d e J o n g p r e s e n t e d a m e s s a g e f r o m H i s Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Public Safety and Solicitor General (Gift Card Certainty) Stat- utes Amendment Act, 2008. Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. M. de Jong: I'm pleased, on behalf of the Min- ister of Public Safety and Solicitor General, to introduce Bill 17.

This bill amends the Business Practices and Consumer Protection Act, Civil Forfeiture Act, Com- mercial Transport Act, Liquor Control and Licensing Act and Motor Vehicle Act. Amendments to the Business Practices and Con- sumer Protection Act provide for the regulation of gift cards and gift certificates. In particular, amendments address expiry dates and fees, and require disclosure of relevant terms and conditions to the purchaser. This legislation ensures that consumers get full value for their money when they use gift cards, while allowing for certain provisions where warranted.

The Civil Forfeiture Act authorizes the forfeiture of property gained by or used for unlawful activity. Amendments respond to gu i d a n c e p r o v i d e d b y t h e judiciary and the legal counsel in the course of the court proceedings in the two years that the legislation has been in force. The Commercial Transport Act is amended to align legislation with longstanding policies and procedures on trailer licensing and permits. Finally, amendments to the Liquor Control and Licensing Act will allow temporary licences for Olympic/Paralympic Winter Games–related facilities and services.

The new temporary licence category is lim- ited to the period surrounding the games and restricted to facilities that are directly tied to the games and for which existing licence categories are not suitable. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for consideration by the House at the next sitting after today. Bill 17, Public Safety and Solicitor General (Gift Card Certainty) Statutes Amendment Act, 2008, intro- duced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) LILO PETERMANN L. Mayencourt: This afternoon I had the pleasure of being in the rotunda with the Minister of Employment and Income Assistance and the Minister of Education for an announcement around people with disabilities, which was really very significant. There were a couple of guys who spoke and told what it meant to them, and I thought to myself: what a c o o l j o b w e h a v e h e r e a s M L A s . W e g e t t o m e e t t h e nicest, most interesting people that are making a huge difference in our communities. All we have to do is be here, and we meet them. It's so spectacular to do that.

One of the ways that we help our communities grow is by recognizing people who do that kind of thing, where they do something fantastic in the community. We have the B.C. Community Achievement Awards that happen every year. This year Vancouver-Burrard, my riding, is being especially honoured because of a person that we are honouring as a community achiever. Her name is Lilo Petermann, and she is 90 years old. Her first achievement is that she looks like she's under 60.

The other one is that for the past 25 years, she's been teaching seniors how to do yoga in our community, down at the West End Seniors Network, at the community centre and so on. She is just an amazing lady. She came to visit me a couple of years ago and brought her whole yoga class with her. We had cookies and coffee and tea and all that sort of stuff. Then she presented me with a book she had written — a book on yoga that talks about every friend she had in her life- time. It was so amazing to see that. [1350] When we have people like that, we've got to cele- brate them.

So I'm going to be very excited to see Lilo Petermann receive the B.C. Community Achievement Award on April 23 at Government House. We have some great people in this province, and it's so nice to be able to be in this House to celebrate, with all of my colleagues on both sides, the kind of people that we really want British Columbia to know about. JET PROGRAM FOR DISABLED PERSONS B. Simpson: The provincial government has an explicit goal to increase the number of people with disabilities in the workplace. It's a program called 10 by 10 — 10 percent increase by 2010.

In Quesnel the College of New Caledonia offers a program called the JET program. They've been offering that program for quite some time now — the job edu- cation and training program. It offers job orientation to adults with disabilities, assertiveness and interpersonal skills — the assertiveness skills are to ensure that they protect their own space and their own rights in the workplace — and interview skills.

An interesting component is job maintenance skills — not only their ability to keep the job that they get but career pathing and succession, and to be aggressive in pursuing their career obje ctives when they do get work. Then of course, when they wrap up all of that, they do a job search program. Many of these adults with disabilities get placement. They have a very strong track record. They do a very, very good job.

11208 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 In fact, I was talking to one of the instructors, Dougal Hines, a longtime friend of mine, who told me that just the other day he had a young woman come in who they had assisted to get enough self-esteem and skills to challenge for her driver's licence. She got her driver's licence. Now she has her driver's licence, she has a job, she's excited about life, and her future looks very bright. Dougal Hines and Jan Gamble, the other instructor, have put their heart and soul into this program, into the people that it serves.

Many adults with disabilities have benefited from this, and so has the community — the business community in particular. Unfortunately, the progra m will end this year for reasons that we have canvassed in this House. The pro- gram will cease to continue, and we have a community group that's come together to try to figure out how we continue to provide services to adults with disabilities so they can be integrated into our workforce. I would like the House to recognize Dougal and Jan and the contribution the JET program has made to Quesnel. AIR TRAVEL BETWEEN PRINCE GEORGE AND SEATTLE J.

Rustad: Prince George–Omineca offers a world- class opportunity to outdoor enthusiasts. Whether it's the fabulous lodges and top-notch guide outfitters or perhaps just sightseeing, camping, mountain biking or snowmobiling, the Omineca region offers it all. Beginning May 1, visitors will have a new option to visit our area. I'm pleased to inform the House that Horizon Air will provide regular non-stop service from Prince George to Seattle.

This is the first regularly scheduled international air service for Prince George and provides a new convenient connection to many popular U.S. destinations, including winter escapes to Hawaii and Mexico. In the reverse direction B.C.'s north can now anticipate further business and tourist visits from Americans and international travellers, as this connection makes it easier for us to access the lu- crative U.S. market. The new Horizon connectio n will help diversifica- tion and build stronger economic ties in our region with the rest of North America.

We can now look for- ward to marketing our unique opportunities to more of our U.S. neighbours with the wilderness, adventure and cultural experiences of northern B.C. It also helps build the activity and excitement around Prince George Airport's expansion project. After all, Prince George and the region have a lot to offer an expanded network of visitors. It's a thriving city just ten minutes from pristine wilderness and out- door adventure. Visitors can enjoy everything from world-class hotels, golfing and arts to hiking, boating, hunting and fishing.

The region is also a growing centre for international investment in our natural resources as well as our emerging inland port and logistics centre. Of crucial economic importance, this new service to Seattle helps build our presence in the global transportation net- work. Please join me in welcoming the world directly to the northern interior through the new Prince George Airport gateway and in thanking the mayor and coun- cil of Prince George for their support of this important initiative. [1355] ECO-SENSE HOUSE IN HIGHLANDS J.

Horgan: When it comes to green building tech- nologies and low-environmental-impact housing al- ternatives, many builders are simply talking the talk, but in my constituency of M a l a h a t – J u a n d e F u c a o n e family is truly walking the walk. Just 30 minutes from this Legislature, in the district of Highlands, live trend-setting natural buil ding innovators Ann and Gord Baird.

Known simply as Eco-Se nse, Ann and Gord have transcended the commercial green movement and em- barked on an amazing journey toward real sustainability and created a multigenerational home that combines green lifestyle and modern building standards. Eco-Sense believes that a home in its system should mimic the beauty and natural functions of the world. This approach creates safe and sustainable living solutions while not taking precious resources away from future generations.

Eco-Sense is North America's first code-approved, seismically engineered, load-bearing, insulated cob house and features solar, PV and wind power, grid inter-tie, solar thermal heating, rainwater harvesting from a living roof, composting toilets, grey water reuse and passive solar design. Constructed from straw, clay, sand and pumice, Eco-Sense is writing the book on how to create housing from the ground up with the most minimal impact on the environment. One of the challenges fo r the Bairds has been an inflexible building code that is reluctant to embrace alternative design concepts.

To meet the environmental challenges of our age, the new building codes must include these techniques. Sustainable from conception to completion, grand- parents, children and grandc hildren are living in my community with virtually no environmental impact. Encroached on by urban sprawl, blacktop and thousand- unit developments, the Bairds have made a home and lifestyle that uses little and returns much.

For the whole story on an incredible family and an amazing adventure in creativity and innovation, I invite all those listening to tune into the Knowledge Network at 7 p.m. on April 14 to watch the documentary A Sus- tainable Home , or google them at eco-sense.ca and see what ecologically sensible living can truly be. B.C. ATHLETES AT 2008 OLYMPIC GAMES IN BEIJING D. MacKay: I rise today to speak to the attention the Olympic Games have been receiving lately. With Olympic protests making headlines in B.C. and around the world, I want to take some time to commend the

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11209 excellent work of Team Canada in preparing for the 2008 Summer Olympics and Paralympics. In 119 days it is expected that more than 300 Cana- dian citizens will be competing in the Olympic events, and there are more qualifiers to come. Our athletes have been hard at work training for what will be for them the biggest event of their lives. Many of these citizens come from British Columbia.

So far, some B.C. members of team Canada include Hazelton's Carol Huynh for women's wrestling; 15- year-old Savannah King from Vancouver, who will be swimming the women's 400-metre freestyle; Haislan Garcia from Burnaby, who will be competing in the men's freestyle wrestling; and Alison Kabush, who will compete in the Paralympic Games playing boccia. The Olympic movement has a good track record of promoting international understanding and peace and dialogue among people around the world. In Beijing our athletes will stand as examples of the enormous skill and determination that B.C. youth have.

They will be the ambassadors for our pr ovince's values of multi- culturalism and tolerance and will exemplify the belief that by working together, we can achieve great things. As political representatives, it must be our first and foremost priority to support these men and women who have worked so hard and invested so much in order to represent us on the international stage. I would like the House to recognize the outstanding accomplishments of these fine British Columbians. 100th ANNIVERSARY OF HASTINGS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL S. Simpson: Hon.

Speaker, 100 years ago this May, Hastings Elementary School opened its doors at its present site on Penticton Street in Vancouver. Over the past century this school, one of Vancouver's largest elementary facilities, has developed a wonderful reputa- tion as a school that works and has become an integral part of the Hastings-Sunrise community. Many of the thousands of students who have come through Hastings doors have gone on to accomplish significant achievements in our society — likely the best known being our previous Lieutenant-Governor Her Honour Iona Campagnolo, who attended Hastings in grades 3 and 4.

Today Hastings is one of the largest, most complex elementary schools in Vancouver. It is a French immer- sion school with almost a third of its more than 600 students participating in that program, an excellent program that my daughter was fortunate to attend. As a past parent, I can say without reservation that Hast- ings School served my daughter exceptionally well. [1400] Hastings is also an inner-city and community school that serves a diverse and complex population.

It is a school that balances a wide demographic, both in terms of incomes and ethnicity, with large populations from Chinese, Vietnamese, Central American Spanish, European and first nations descent. It achieves this by promoting equity, respect and strong character. It is a school that successfully challenged bullying. It is a school that has provided a true haven of stability and support for many children who otherwise face difficult challenges in their lives. It is a school I am proud to say is part of Vancouver-Hastings.

On May 23 the Hastings School community will come together to celebrate a rich and important hundred-year history. Classrooms will be decorated in the decades of the school's history. In support of those efforts, they are collecting memorabilia that reminisces life at Hastings, whether it be newsletters, sports day ribbons, photos and much more. Anyone hearing this statement who could contribute to that collection would be most appre- ciated and welcome. We all know the essential role that our schools play in developing our children and establishing their foundation as young adults and leaders of tomorrow.

Hastings and its many teac hers, principals, support staff, parents and children have contributed a century to that objective. I urge all members to join me in con- gratulating Hastings. Oral Questions INVESTIGATION INTO TREE FARM LICENCE LAND REMOVALS B. Ralston: The Minister of Forests has never ex- plained his decision to unilaterally grant Western Forest Products its request to take 30,000 hectares of land out of its tree farm licences on Vancouver Island. That decision was worth millions of dollars to Western Forest Products, with no return to the public.

Can the Attorney General now confirm a report pub- lished by the Dogwood Initia tive that employees at the B.C. Securities Commission are investigating the possibil- ity that insiders were leaked the Forests Minister's pending decision before it was publicly announced? Hon. R. Coleman: The decision was made in Janu- ary of 2006 or 2007 — whatever it was. The decision was made based on advice by staff after a report to me that made the recommendation. The decision stands. The member's comments about the Dogwood Initia- tive….

He might want to do a little more research with regards to who that organization is and also might want to check with the B.C. Securities Commission and the fact that they don't actually make public what they might be reviewing with regards to an investigation. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B. Ralston: I'm not sure if the minister remembers just when he made the decision, but it was made in January 2007. Just prior to this decision, trading in Western Forest Products stock spiked. Trade volume was 6.5 times greater than the monthly average.

Har- bert Management Corp., Western Forest Products sec- ond-largest shareholder, bought an additional three million shares on January 12, 2007 — just two weeks prior to the minister's decision.

11210 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 Again to the Attorney General: can he advise this House if an insider-trading investigation is underway, and can he tell us the scope of the B.C. Securities Commission probe? Hon. R. Coleman: I do know that Western Forest Products has provided an explanation with regards to the particular incident that the member outlines. I don't know what the outcome of that discussion will be. Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supple- mental. B. Ralston: Well, the minister can disparage the Dogwood Initiative. They di d meet with the investiga- tors from the B.C.

Securi ties Commission, so I think that speaks at least to their credibility. This gift to Western Forest Products was made behind closed doors and without any public input or approval. To the Attorney General: can he advise the House if he is aware if a special prosecutor has been appointed to provide legal advice to the investiga- tors, given the politically sensitive nature of this investigation? Hon. R. Coleman: It's clear that the members oppo- site still want to ride an old horse with regards to rights of people that own private land in the province of Brit- ish Columbia.

This wasn't a behind-the-door decision. It was a decision that was made, which was processed by my ministry — it was brought by the recommendation of my very professional staff — to allow the exclusion to take place. The decision was made, the document was signed, and the deal was done. [1405] J. Horgan: Well, that old horse the minister refers to is the heart of my constituency. That old horse is first nations that weren't consulted.

That old horse is now before the Minister of Community Services with a downzoning application for thousands of landowners in and around the region because this government mismanaged the file. Again, a simple question to the Attorney General — the minister responsible for the Securities Commission, if he looks at his dossier there: is there at this time an ongoing investigation into potential insider trading with respect to the government's giveaway of private land assets to Western Forest Products with no com- pensation to the Crown? Hon. R. Coleman: We've canvassed this in the past.

The member knows full well what the process was. He knows that it was a statutory decision made by the Minister of Forests. These lands were private lands. They weren't public lands. They were in tree farm licences. There has been a longstanding ability for people to actually apply to have them removed. They did. The recommendation was made by staff, and the approval was given. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. J.

Horgan: W h a t w e d o k n o w i s t h a t t h e A u d i t o r General is investigating the activities of the minister and the government of British Columbia with respect to its dealings with Western Forest Products. We know that. What we do know is that Securities Commission investigators interviewed individuals with respect to the deal that took place in British Columbia on the 12th of January. Three million shares traded on that day. The Securities Commission has thought enough about it to talk to the Dogwood Initiative. Have they thought enough about it to talk to the Attorney General?

Is there an investigation going on at this time into the activities of the Minister of Forests and Western Forest Products? Hon. R. Coleman: A g a i n , t h i s d e c i s i o n w a s a statutory decision made by the Minister of Forests after recommendation by his staff. B. Simpson: The issue at hand here is whether or not the minister gave advance notice, and were there people in Western Forest Products that benefited from that? We have canvassed this — the minister is right — in this House. We dispute the minister's claim that the private lands in the tree farm licence are privately held.

That's what a tree farm licen ce is: public and private lands as one entity. This is going on right now. The Pope and Talbot tree farm licence in the Kootenays is being sold sepa- rately — the public lands — to Interfor. The private lands have already been sold, and the money is being held in escrow. Will the minister commit today…? Has he signalled to Pope and Talbot that those lands will be released from the tree farm licence? Is that why they've been sold and Pope and Talbot is making the profit that it is? Hon. R.

Coleman: There has been no indication given to anybody whatsoever with regards to the disposition of those lands. There's a process of con- sultation going on, and ther e's been no report given to the minister. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B. Simpson: Maybe the Securities Commission needs to look into this one again or the Auditor General will roll up his report and look into this, because this stinks. How is it possible for a legal entity to be subdivided without the minister's approval?

How is it possible that financial transactions can o ccur without this minister's approval, unless the minister has signalled to the parties involved that it's a done deal, that it's going to happen? Again, my question to the Attorney General: is the Securities Commission investigating the Western Forest Products deal, and if so, will it be expanded to include what's happening with Pope and Talbot? Hon. R. Coleman: The member knows that Pope and Talbot went through a CCAA, which is covered by

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11211 federal statute. That process can go through. Somebody can make an offer and subject-to and put money in escrow if they wish. That doesn't mean the minister has given anybody any indication of anything, which I have not. [1410] S. Simpson: This issue around the sale of the Western Forest Products lands is a serious matter. The suggestion that it may be investigated by the Securities Commis- sion is an extremely seriou s matter. The issue around whether there's insider trading or insider information here is a serious matter.

The question goes to the Attorney General, who has responsibility for the Securities Commission. Will he tell this House: is there an investigation being con- ducted by the Securities Commission into this sale — yes or no? Hon. R. Coleman: To the member opposite: if there was or there was not, nobody on this side of the House would comment on an ongoing investigation by another statutory or legal entity. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S. Simpson: What's inappropriate is for the Minister of Forests to be answering these questions when his ministry and office may be involved in this investigation.

That's what's inappropriate. The Attorney General has responsibility for the Securities Commission. The Attorney General has the responsibility to this House and to the people of British Columbia to be forthright on this. Will he tell us: is there an investigation by th e Securities Commission or not? Yes or no. Hon. R. Coleman: As far as I'm concerned, I am confident in the integrity of my professional staff in my office. I will put that on th e line at any time, along with my own integrity. R.

Fleming: You know, this is the process that we're in now in British Columbia, when we had to find out from the former Solicitor General that he was the subject of a criminal investigation. It took the media to ask the questions of the A ttorney General's ministry whether there was such an investigation. So here we are now in regard to the Securities Commission. They're investigating Western Forest Products for suspicious share activities. So my question is to the Attorney General. Has a special prosecutor been appointed to investigate this matter? Hon. W.

Oppal: I would have thought that with the exhaustive discussions we've had in this House regarding the appointment of a special prosecutor, the member opposite would know better than to ask that question. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. The member has a supplemental. R. Fleming: I can recall this very Attorney General telling us that they won't reveal any such details until they become known in the public. Now we are aware in the public realm that there is a Securities Commis- sion investigation into this land deal.

My question again to the Attorney General, under his own advice that he has given to members of this House before, is: can he advise if he is aware of a special prosecutor being appointed to provide legal advice to the investigators, given the politically sensitive nature of this issue? Hon. W. Oppal: Well, it's clear that the member oppo- site only listened to half the discussion. What we said during the last discussion that took place in this House…. Interjections. Hon. W.

Oppal: What we said when this issue was last raised in this House regarding the appointment of special prosecutors and wh en that appointment is made public is that when that matter is in the public realm, it will be for the criminal justice branch that ap- points the special prosecutor to make that appointment public. It is not for the Attorney General to do so. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1415] M. Farnworth: No one has asked the Attorney General to appoint a special prosecutor. We've been very clear.

We're asking the Attorney General if he is aware that the Securities Commission may be under- taking an investigation into that financial transaction. Is the Attorney General aware that there may be an investigation taking place into that financial transaction involving those shares? Hon. W. Oppal: No. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Continue, Member. M. Farnworth: Well, the Minister of Forests indi- cated that the Securities Commission had received an explanation.

Can the Attorney General then confirm that we won't be finding out about this tomorrow afternoon at about 5:30? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members.

11212 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 Hon. W. Oppal: How about five? I can't answer that question. GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN BOUNTIFUL L. Krog: Recent events in Texas that saw hundreds of children apprehended from a fundamentalist Latter- Day Saints community are hitting home here in B.C. People across the province are concerned for the women and children in Bountiful. The people of B.C. are tired of talk. They want to see some action to pro- tect those women and children from potential abuse and human rights violations.

Has the Attorney General and this government finally made a decision? Is he going to refer the issue to the courts, appoint a special prosecutor or prosecute? Hon. W. Oppal: The issue of Bountiful has been with us for a number of decades, and it's been the con- cern of past Attorneys General. The reason for that is that there are difficult issues of law, and there are diffi- cult issues of fact. Those i ssues, unfortunately, over the decades have not been satisfactorily resolved.

I can tell this House, and I think it's well known, that since 2005 we have made it clear that we want to do something and that we will do something about Bountiful. So what we did was ask the RCMP to reopen their investigation, which had been inactive for a num- ber of years. The RCMP did that. We got an extensive report from the RCMP, and we then commissioned a special prosecutor to look at it. That special prosecutor gave an opinion. We had another prosecutor outside look at it. That was Mr. Doust. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. L.

Krog: The delay is cold comfort to the women and children of Bountiful an d people in this province who care about human rights. This problem is not go- ing to solve itself. We need to get on with it because, in the meantime, the potential sexual exploitation of young women continues. In Utah, Warren Jeffs, leader of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints Church, was convicted on two counts of accomplice to rape. In Texas authorities have acted to protect hundreds of children from alleged abuse. Here in B.C. we're still waiting for this government to act.

To the Attorney General: whether it's a prosecution or a referral, when is he going to do something? Hon. W. Oppal: Well, this is hypocrisy at its best or at its worst. I don't mind telling this House that one of the real legal issues we've got here is that nothing was done for the last 25 years. An opinion was given to the Attorney General in the '90s. That member should know the opinion. Nothing wa s done in the '90s. That, in our view and in the view of some of the lawyers who have looked at it, gives some kind of legal comfort to those people who are committing those acts.

If some- thing had been done in the '90s, we wouldn't be in this dilemma now. [1420] Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. D. Thorne: Yesterday B.C.'s Representative for Children and Youth raised concerns about children and women who are exposed to domestic violence and abuse. She said that we need better financial and insti- tutional supports for safety plans for women to help them escape domestic violence. In Bountiful there is no support and no coordinated response for the women and children who might choose to leave. My question is to the Minister Responsible for Women's Issues.

Will she commit today to work with the children's representative to improve supports for women and children who are facing domestic violence, including the development of safety plans on the front lines? Hon. W. Oppal: We've made it clear to the women and children of Bountiful that we as a government are prepared to help them. We've made the same offer to the children of Bountiful that we are there, prepared to help them. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. D.

Thorne: With all due respect to the Attorney General, who answered the question I put to the women's ministry minister, we see problems with ser- vices for women and children in British Columbia right now. There have been so many cuts over the last six or seven years. We're not even anywhere close to the kind of funding and supports and service provision that we had in 2001. This is the government that got rid of the Ministry of Women's Equality. It's also the government that gut- ted victim services, cut all funding to women's centres and also to child care programs.

Again, I ask the minister for women's services: will she commit today to increase funding and services to all communities, including Bountiful, to help women develop safety plans? Hon. I. Chong: Well, the hypocrisy on the other side is absolutely ridiculous. Since 2001 the services, the financial programs, that have been available for women and children who are fleeing abuse and experiencing abuse have gone up 45 percent. We have provided addi- tional dollars for training, which our front-line workers need. We have provided dollars for outreach services to ensure people are aware of services.

That was never there before. In addition, last year we provided additional re- sources to ensure that every single one of our provin- cially funded transition houses has 24-7 staffing — never before under the previous administration.

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11213 Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Member, just take your seat for a second. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. N. Simons: T h e p r o b l e m w e h a v e h e r e i n B . C . i s that resources for women and children who are facing violence, abuse or oppressive living situations aren't that well coordinated between agencies. What hap- pened in Texas is an unfortunate consequence of gov- ernment's failure to address well-known problems. My question specifically is to the Minister of Children and Family Development.

What programs are available through his ministry that are specifically tailored to offer support and assistance to women and children who wish to leave Bountiful and the FLDS sect? Hon. I. Chong: As I indicated previously, we have provided outreach services which were previously never there.

Communities around the province now h a v e p e o p l e t h a t g o o u t t o e n s u r e w o m e n a n d c h i l - dren who are fleeing abusive relationships, who are experiencing abuse, are aware that there are services available and that they can find a safe place to go when they are looking for a safe place to be away from their abusive relationships. [1425] When I hear members opposite, particularly the critic, indicate that there ar e one-time-only dollars, that is absolutely false. Our budget has gone up 45 percent. That is an annual amount that is now there. I have travelled around the province.

I have visited virtually every community. I have visited over three- quarters of the transition houses and met with front-line workers, and they have said: "Thank you for providing the resources." You know, Mr. Speaker, at the end of the day, that opposition voted against it. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. N. Simons: Well, that was the wrong minister an- swering the wrong question. My question is specifically to the Minister of Children and Family Development. The issue at hand is that the supports need to be in place for families.

If they choose to leave a community or a situation that isn't appropriate, they don't have access to that. Forty-six women's centres in this prov- ince were closed under this government's regime, and that's a fact everybody seems to know except for the members opposite. My question again: does the Minister of Children and Family Development recognize there's a problem, and does he recognize that specific programs need to be put into place to address the specific issues that we're dealing with here today? Hon. T. Christensen: I don't doubt the member's desire to try and address the situation in Bountiful.

It's a desire that's actually shared by all members of this House. But as has been pointed out today, those members had a decade to start taking those steps. It wasn't done. It's a complex matter. I can assure the member of this. Front-line workers from the Ministry of Children and Family Development are available to investigate any concern around a child that may be in need of pro- tection.

Resources are available through a combination of the Ministry of Children and Family Development as well as resources funded by the Minister Responsible for Women's Issues to ensu re that there are support networks available for any woman who chooses to flee Bountiful with her children or any child who chooses to leave Bountiful on their own. B.C. PLACE ROOF REPLACEMENT N. Macdonald: Two years ago the NDP asked this g o v e r n m e n t i f t h e r o o f o f B . C . P l a c e n e e d e d t o b e r e - placed before the Olympics, and we were assured that the roof was fine. Subsequently, it has collapsed.

It is discoloured. It has recently had water dripping from it. The question is simple. Th e chair of the board respon- sible for B.C. Place says the roof needs to be replaced. He says the roof will last a maximum of four years, mini- mum undetermined. He says it should be replaced before the Olympic Games. The question: is the provin- cial government committed to replacing the roof of B.C. Place before the Olympic Games? Hon. S. Hagen: Mr. Speaker, I can't tell you how pleased I am to receive the question from that mem- ber, because that member had never been inside B.C.

Place until three weeks ago when I arranged a tour for him. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Continue, Minister. Hon. S. Hagen: I can tell you that the chair of the board of VCCEP is preparing a number of alternatives for government. Government will consider those alter- natives and move forward. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1430] DISCLOSURE OF DOCUMENTS IN B.C. RAIL COURT CASE J. Kwan: On Monday the B.C. Rail corruption trial resumes in Vancouver. In an extraordinary move,

11214 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 government lawyers are trying to place significant restrictions on the single document that the judge says goes to the heart of the "innocence at stake" principle. In an affidavit filed by the government lawyers, the government says it will release the document to the defence to see it. But they want the defence to sign away various rights to use the document, and the gov- ernment wants five days' notice if the defence plans to use it in an attempt to prove innocence. My question is to the Attorney General. What are the B.C. Liberals so afraid of?

What is in this docu- ment that they don't want anyone to see it, and they don't want the defence to be able to use it in the trial? Hon. W. Oppal: First of all, the B.C. Liberals are not running the lawsuit. Secondly, we're not going to comment on what's going on in the courtroom. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Member has a supplemental. J. Kwan: This document, acco rding to the judge, goes to the heart of the trial, to the heart of the "inno- cence at stake" principle. Why are the government lawyers trying to put a bl ockade on it?

Why are the government lawyers putting conditions for this docu- m e n t t o b e r e l e a s e d b y t h e d e f e n c e ? W h a t d o e s t h e g o v e r n m e n t h a v e t o h i d e ? W h a t d o t h e B . C . L i b e r a l s have to hide? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. W. Oppal: The issue is before the Supreme Court. I'm sure that Madam Justice Elizabeth Bennett will make that decision without any advice from any- one in this House. [End of question period.] Hon. R. Thorpe: I ask leave to make an introduction. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Introductions by Members Hon. R.

Thorpe: Some 37 years ago the young d a u g h t e r o f C o r a a n d P a u l V a n d e r V e l d e n w a s m a r - ried. I would ask all members of the House to join me in congratulating Edna and Mr. Speaker on their 37th wedding anniversary. [Applause.] Mr. Speaker: Thank you. Happy anniversary, Edna. B. Simpson: Congratulations. I stand to present a petition. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Petitions B. Simpson: I am presenting a rather unique petition from laid-off forest workers and many other concerned citizens in the Kamloops region.

Since these forest work- ers have been given their pink slips with no support from their MLA, they have signed a pink slip for the MLA for Kamloops–North Thompson. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: I call continued second reading debate on Bill 18, Greenhouse Gas Reduction (Cap and Trade) Act, in this chamber, and in

Section A, I call Committee of Supply — for the information of mem- bers, beginning debate on th e Ministry of Employment and Income Assistance estimates. Second Reading of Bills GREENHOUSE GAS REDUCTION (CAP AND TRADE) ACT (continued) On the amendment (continued). M. Sather: It's my pleasure to continue the debate on the referral motion that was made yesterday by the En- vironment critic, the member for Vancouver-Hastings, to refer Bill 18, the Greenhouse Gas Reduction (Cap and Trade) Act, to the Select Standing Committee on Legisla- tive Initiatives. [1435] [S.

Hammell in the chair.] There's a very good reason for that. It's reminiscent of Bill 16, which we discussed earlier and which we had a similar motion for. I must say that since I've been elected anyway, I don't recall the opposition making such a motion before. The reas on is that these bills are entirely inadequate. They do n't give members of this House an opportunity to discuss the meat of the mat- ter, because there is no meat, in fact, in the bills. That's a real problem, and that's why we've asked all members to open up this discussion and have it inclusive of the real issues at hand.

There are a lot of questions around Bill 18 that could be addressed very nicely by this motion and with the cooperation of all the parties involved. I wanted to start by continuing on a theme that the member for Vancouver-Hastings mentioned yesterday towards the end of his two-hour speech, and it's about industry with regard to this bill. The other day The Vancouver Sun listed the top…. Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Excuse me. Members.

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11215 M. Sather: The other day in The Vancouver Sun the ten top greenhouse gas emitte rs in B.C. were listed. They included three gas plants, two cogeneration plants, Alcan, two cement plants, a refinery and a pipe- line. There are a number of questions unanswered around not only this legislat ion but also the carbon tax legislation that is going to be coming forth, which the Finance Minister has talked about.

She said, for exam- ple — in fact, she promised — that industry would not be hit twice, once by the carbon tax and once by the cap-and-trade regime that's coming in now. It hasn't been explained, though, how it will be the case that industry won't be hit twice. They're asking for answers to these questions, and I think it's incumbent upon the government to provide some of those an- swers. That's why this motion, a referral, would give us an opportunity to do that. Competitive advantage is a question that industry is asking. If they're going to be subject to these environ- mental laws…. We support cap-and-trade.

Certainly, it's a tool that can be used to bring down greenhouse gases. But industry is asking if they're going to be subject to these measures, now that they're already dealing with a high dollar. They're dealing with recession in the United States. Their concern is about dealing with competition from jurisdictions with few regulations like, for exam- ple, China and how the government is going to address that so that they can continue doing business here in Canada and in British Colu mbia. That's what we all want to see, of course.

But they have concerns, and they have been quite clear that they haven't been consulted by the government in any way that they consider mean- ingful about some of these issues they have. Important issues like this speak to the reason that the referral motion has been introduced. There needs to be an airing-out, a discussion, of a lot of these impor- tant issues, and that hasn't happened right now. [1440] The government is fond of talking about self- sufficiency, particularly when it comes to private power producers.

But what about th e self-sufficiency of our industries with regard to measures like cap-and-trade and the carbon tax? What is the government going to do to ensure that we're not going to have to depend on other jurisdictions, low-cost jurisdictions, to provide products like cement when we have that capacity here? Is the government willing, for example, to tax these imports to support our businesses? One would think that's something that the govern- ment might not be likely to do, but then they'd have to explain what they are going to do and how it's going to affect business.

If there's not going to be an import tax, for example, then I think it's entirely incumbent upon the government to lay out a business analysis of how cap- and-trade, how the carbon tax will affect large industry. The question also arises: who in the government is looking after the interests of industry and the interests of business in B.C.? What are they doing? It's just a vacuum in terms of information. We're very hopeful that the government will sup- port this motion so that a lot of these questions can be answered.

It's not going to be satisfactory to British Columbians if the government pushes through this bill. They don't know what it's all about and haven't had a chance to analyze it and to see it analyzed by those who should be doing that — namely, in part at least, those of us in this House. Greenhouse gas emissions reduction, of course, is the purpose of the bill. It's a worthy purpose, no doubt about that. We wouldn't argue with that. Emissions from industry and aviation in British Columbia account for about 40 percent of our total emissions. We believe they should be covered under the cap-and-trade scheme.

We don't know whether aviation is going to be included in this bill, and that's one of the things we want to find out. As I think I said yesterday — or it may have been in Bill 16 that I mentioned it — I hope the government puts up some speakers, at the very least, to answer these questions. Perhaps, as the critic has suggested, we will get some answers during the committee stage debate. But cap-and-trade has had success, if done right. I think the most notable example is dealing with acid rain in North America. That was quite successful.

Peo- ple will recall that sulphur dioxide was a real issue a number of years ago. It worked. We're looking for a scheme that will be successful. However, this bill is merely a framework of how the government will sort of be allowed to participate in the western climate initiative, which is a collaborative ef- fort, I guess — we don't know much about it, but from what we read in the paper — between this government and governments in western United States. That brings us to the question: what is B.C.'s role in the western climate initiative, and how is that progress- ing?

There's a lot of secrecy around that, which was discussed at length yesterday. The cap-and-trade, done right, allows for market f o r c e s a n d i n n o v a t i o n t o c h a n g e b e h a v i o u r . A s I s a i d before in discussion of the previous bill, it's the changes in behaviour that we're trying to encourage. If we don't change behaviour — both that of individuals and more specifically of industry in this case — t h e n w e d o n ' t have a chance of reducing our greenhouse gas emis- sions, which is of course the goal.

If you look at the example that California has laid out in terms of the openness of their process, I think it shows the way of what we would like to see in terms of openness and accountability by the government around cap-and-trade. But certainly this bill doesn' t show it. I guess we'll have to wait, perhaps, for regulations. [1445] The problem, of course, wi th regulations is that we don't get to debate those. They don't get to be debated in this House. The cabinet will pass regulations, presuma- bly — that's behind closed doors — and then we're stuck with whatever the government comes up with.

So to me, it just seems disingenuous of the govern- ment to bring forward this legislation with so little detail. There are a lot of unanswered questions. What is

11216 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 the cap going to be? How many permits will be issued? That's very important in terms of the functioning of the system. If it's too low, then you don't get a change in behaviour. Again, that's what the purpose of it is. There are a number of things that businesses can do to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. There can be improved energy efficiency, increased use of renewable resources, capture and sequestration of carbon — in other words, typically pumping carbon dioxide deep into the earth to keep it out of the atmosphere.

I understand that the oil and gas industry in Norway, for example, is fairly successful at doing that. When asked how they're able to do it, they said: "Carbon tax." So that's one of the other parts of the government's plan, and we'll see how that progresses as we go along. Businesses can reduce their losses from industrial systems and change types and methods of production. So those are some of the kinds of things they can do. Some of the climate change groups have suggested that the cap that the government sets must be at least 33 percent below 2000 levels by 2020.

Again, with this referral motion, we would hope that we could have a thorough discussion of the issue of where the cap is going to fall. The cap needs to be quantified — actual numbers of metric tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalents. That's what they've done in California, and that's something where you can then actually say it's measurable. Is the government achieving a target or isn't it? We need to see a quantified cap. We're wondering what the gov- ernment is going to come forth with. What sectors will be covered by cap-and-trade is another unanswered question. I mentioned aviation.

There's also the marine sect or. Both cruise ships and commercial marine transport are large emitters, and we want to know whether they're going to be covered by the cap-and-trade legislation. These are some of the issues. Other unanswered ques- tions are: how will the permits be allocated? There are two ways the government can do that. Either they can give them away to large emitters — the purpose of the permit, of course, is to keep you below that cap — or they can be sold, I think, through what's called the auction system.

I could talk a bit about th e problems they've had in Europe with their cap-and-trade system. It wasn't one where they had an auction. That has led to some of the problems they have. Again, whether we're going to go to an auction or whether the permits are going to be handed out by the government, this is going to be a cabinet decision. There's not going to be legislative oversight, and there is not really going to be pub lic input on that. That's the problem we have with Bill 18, and that's why the refer- ral to the legislative committee has been made.

I'm hoping and expecting that a number of speakers will address this issue as well. Some of the benefits of the auction system that have been talked about is that, for one, companies who have already taken steps to redu ce their greenhouse gases have to buy fewer permits. "The polluter pays" is one way of people putting it. If you reduce your green- house gas emissions by some of the methods I talked about earlier, then there are fewer permits that you have to purchase, which is a benefit. [1450] It doesn't allow industry not to have to pay for emissions, but it can sell th em for profit.

That's what people are concerned about. When I talk to people about cap-and-trade, they say: "Well, that's no good, because it just allows industry to buy or trade its way out of having to reduce its emissions." A well-constructed system, I believe, does actually result in reductions in green- house gas emissions, so I'm hopeful the government is going to come forward with that kind of system. There's also revenue from the auction of permits. Those can be used to fund other projects to reduce emis- sions and assist vulnerable companies.

That's actually what I'd hoped would be the case with th e carbon tax that the government has talked about — that the money could have been put to things like projects to reduce emissions. But that's not the route they've gone. In the European Union they noticed a number of problems. The biggest polluters ended up being the winners, which seems kind of s t r a n g e . B u t i f y o u a c - cumulate permits, which critics, at least, say is done in Europe…. They were asked to report on what their expected level of emissions would be.

It said that they exaggerated the levels to get more permits, which are then an asset — a n d t h e y w e r e l i s t e d a s a s s e t s b y t h e company — that they then could trade for at a profit. That drove down the valu e of the permits, and it led to more or less a collapse in the system. That's cer- tainly not what we're hoping will happen here, but I expect there's considerable pressure on the government to go the route of giving out the permits. I think there will be pressure from industry for them to do that, but I hope the government resists that pressure.

We want to know too: what will be the penalties if industry doesn't comply with the legislation? Here again is one of the many un answered questions in this legislation. Being able to refer it to the legislative com- mittee, we could get at a lot of these answers, I think. Also, we want to know what kinds of restrictions there will be on offsets. You can buy permits within the system, you can trade, or you can go outside the sys- tem. You don't get them from another industry, you don't get them from the government, but you can look at other projects that are happening. They might be energy retrofits.

It might be renewable energy devel- opment and installation. It might be reforestation. The government needs to be careful about how they go about that, because it can be problematic. For example, an industry shouldn't be able to pur- chase an offset — let's say, for a reforestation project that was part of the government's ongoing mandate — for reforestation that it was going to be doing anyway. It's kind of, "Me too. Yeah, I'm into this," but it's not actually making any demons trable difference in reduc- ing greenhouse gases if that project was going to hap- pen anyway.

Or would the government not do certain projects, like reforestation? Then it would become part of the offset schema. That's a question.

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11217 We don't want to see so many offsets that industry stops focusing on reducing its own emissions. We don't want offsets to become just a cost of doing business, as it were. [1455] What kind of government oversight will there be? Will there be an open presen tation of the data by in- dustry, or what? How is that going to work? The B.C. government removed the requ irement for industry to release pollution records ear lier, so that's worrisome. What kind of data will we be getting? What are the sources going to be, and how reliable is it?

Those are other questions. The lack of accountability is the major issue that critics have with this legislation. It authorizes cabinet to introduce any kind of cap-and-trade regime and change it at any time without legislative oversight. That's go- ing backward. I believe The Vancouver Sun today…. This was a point they were making in their editorial — you know, the lack of oversight and the going behind closed doors. It leaves even the principles of the cap- and-trade regime up to regulation. I mentioned the problem with regulation earlier.

We want to know — and one of the things that we believe the referral motion would assist us in getting at is: what is the scope of the cap-and-trade regime that the government is bringing in? What does it cover — which sectors, which emissions sources, which green- house gases? All these are questions of considerable import to the validity of the cap-and-trade system. Where would the cap-and-trade system be enforced? Would the oil and gas industry be covered? One would surely hope so, because there are large emissions sources there in both prod uction and transportation.

As I mentioned before, there' s a need to cover marine and aviation, which are not covered by the carbon tax — although they might argue with that. There's a need to lower the cap of 100,000 tonnes of greenhouse gases per year. As it is, apparently, that captures right now about 38 facilities in British Colum- bia. We believe it should capture more than that. The government often talks about Dr. Mark Jaccard. You know, he often makes statements supporting the government's initiatives, but this time he's made one that's not quite so supportive.

He said: "B.C. might decide to take an observer position in the western climate initiative while it sees what the next U.S. federal government will do." I wonder if there's going to be a delay while we wait for the election in the United States, and who knows how long we would have to wait beyond then. I think it's probably the same thing with regard to the biofuels issue. In the Un ited States the Democratic candidates have been discussing at length and promot- ing biofuels, particularly in Iowa, discussing around the Iowa caucuses. What is going to happen in that regard?

We wonder if in fact we're never going to find out. When I say "never," I mean…. Let me say…. We wonder if we're going to find out by the next election what the actual plan is. I understand there's going to be some more infor- mation coming forward in August around some of these issues. Certainly, the is sue of secrecy is one that there's been a lot of conc ern expressed about, most specifically in the letters that the Privacy Commis- sioner has written to the Minister of Environment. He has expressed concerns that

section 36 of the act makes sweeping confidentiality concessions that will deny freedom-of-information access to previously accessible corporate data. That's something, again, that The Van- couver Sun editorial mentioned as not a good thing. Maybe the Minister of Environment is going to bring forward an amendment to the bill himself. I don't know. He said he's looking at it. We wonder how he's going to address it. It's a big issue.

We don't want to see a clampdown on access to information. [1500] This information, which this bill is apparently ad- dressing, is already addressed by the Freedom of Infor- mation and Protection of Privacy Act, and so it should stay. The act also deems information as being supplied in confidence, even if it originates from government — so the widening of what is "in confidence." The defini- tion for information supplied is extremely broad in in- formation with respect to a trade secret. This is not going in the direction that we think the government should be go ing in terms of openness and accountability.

First of all, the fact that it is going to be discussed behind clos ed doors…. It can't be dis- cussed in a fulsome way in this House. Then, on top of all that, there's the increased secrecy that's built into the bill around freedom of information. That has us very concerned. We're hopeful that the government will support this motion to refer. We believe there's a huge impor- tance, and it's very significant to the people of British Columbia, to know just how this government is plan- ning to go about addressing climate change. N.

Macdonald: B e f o r e w e b e g i n , I ' d j u s t l i k e t o make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members N. Macdonald: Joining us is Mr. Heath Slee. He's the regional director from the regional district of East Kootenay. I have to admit something to the House here. When I first came, I was able to identify people very easily up in the decks and see clearl y who they were. What has come to pass is that it's more difficult for me. I do recognize Heath there, and I see that you have company with you.

I have to admit that I can't see clearly enough to identify, so I apologize if I should recognize you and I can't. I know people are offering me glasses. It's a sad comment on what happens as each birthday progresses. Anyway, I'd like to welcome you both to the Legis- lature. I had the opportunity of working closely with Heath in the regional district — a great guy.

11218 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 I hope you've enjoyed your visit here to Victoria. I hope you both have. Anyway, if the House could join me in welcoming them. Debate Continued N. Macdonald: With that, I'd like to take my place in speaking in favour of referring Bill 18 to the Select Standing Committee on Legislative Initiatives. What the NDP has said really clearly is that the big polluters have to be part of the solution to climate change. They represent 40 percent of greenhouse gas emissions, so very clearly they have to be part of the solution. This bill, for those that are watching….

They need to understand that the bill , which we are asking that this Legislature refer to th e standing committee, is a piece of enabling legislation. That means that almost everything related to what is going to be truly a mas- sive initiative is going to be put forward as regulations from the Premier and cabinet. This will provide a framework that will then pass the majority of the responsibility over to the Premier and cabinet. Those decisions are going to be fundamen- tally important to the econom y, and they are going to be made without the open participation, the open de- bate, of the public.

I thin k that is a fundamentally wrong way to go. A much more reasonable way for the Legislature to move is to work to involve the public. What this referral motion will do is open up the process. It will give an opportunity for a standing committee of the Legislature t o m o v e a r o u n d t h e p r o v i n c e a n d e n g a g e p e o p l e i n a very important topic. [1505] It will do two things. It will educate people who attend the meetings on the ideas that legislators have in front of them — so share that information.

It will also allow the public to share their feelings and make sure that they are able to expr ess the ideas they have and that they are able to clearly express the concerns they have about the initiatives. They're able to express what their interests are. If we are going to move forward successfully with this initiative — and it's important that we do — then the general public has to be fully committed and has to believe we are putting in place a system that will sin- cerely benefit the issue of dealing with climate change.

If we move and get things wrong and have the population come to see these initiatives as ill-considered, as designed to further interests other than the interest of dealing with climate ch ange, then we will have blown one of the first chances we have had to make change. Having blown that chance, it will make all efforts in the future far more difficult. This bill, as I've said, is enabling legislation. There- fore, they are the bones. Bu t there's not really very much meat to what this House is going to be asked to agree to.

What the Legislative Assembly could do is put it to this committee and allow some of that meat to be put on the bones, and that would be a positive thing to have happen. The idea of cap-and-trade is an idea that I think is widely supported. It is a system that can work, accord- ing to many who look at it, but it is a system that de- pends a great deal on the de tails. I mean, the concept is actually quite simple. But in setting it up, there needs to be tremendous care. Potentially, you are talking about vast sums of money for it to work effectively.

Therefore, when you set up the system, you have to be very careful that you're setting up a system that is go- ing to achieve your goals and is not going to be open to fraudulent behaviour. Essentially, what is cap- and-trade? Well, the concept is that emissions are capped at a level that the govern- ment, on behalf of the people of British Columbia, determines to be appropriat e. Then pollution permits are given to various emitters. If a company uses less than that permit, then the concept is that there's an opportunity for them to benefit, probably financially. So that's the general concept.

If a company needs more, they can access more permits by trading — usually cash — for those permits. The concept is to use market forces to drive innova- tion and to change behaviou rs. The concept is widely supported. So it's seen as an idea that can work. Certainly, anything that rewards innovation and rewards proper behaviour is a concept the people would agree with. But as I've said before, the devil with this is in the detail. How exactly is it going to be put together? If done poorly, there are huge consequences. There are massive implications. The member who spoke before me talked about free allocation.

Or do you use auctioned alloca- tion? These are all things that need to be talked about, understood by the public and a decision made on the direction that will be taken. The reason that we need to refer this and involve the public is because we know, and the public knows, that if you leave these decisions to regulation, essen- tially what you are doing is leaving it to cabinet. You're leaving it to the cabinet, leaving it to the Premier and the Premier's office, who participates in the decision- making — who they meet with, the advice they get.

These are all things that the public will not be privy to at any time. [1510] Therefore, essentially, these key decisions will not be made by the wider public. They will be made in secret, and that is the fund amental flaw we need to deal with. One way of dealing with it is having some of those decisions made, or at least discussed or consid- ered, in a public process. By referring this bill to a standing committee, there is the opportunity to talk through some of the decisions that need to be made and to have those decisions un- derstood by the wider public. As I've said, that's key.

It's key to involve them, to get them to participate, to get the public to understand the decisions that need to be made, and also to make sure that the decisions that are being made are properly thought through and properly considered. There is a lot of concern around secrecy around this government in general. They have a very poor record

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11219 in terms of presenting th ings openly, and their ten- d e n c y i s t o m o v e t o s e c r e c y . W e h a v e d e b a t e d m a n y bills in this Legislature which essentially increased secrecy in government. In the last term we ta lked about the TransLink board, which meets in secret. As early as last fall we talked about the Vancouver Convention Centre Expan- sion Project board — so much done in secrecy. What we saw consistently was that decisions were made poorly, and people were not held to account.

There's a long list of moves by this government towards secrecy. With climate change, unfortunately, that tendency continues. You have a climate change secretariat. This secretariat is a group that meets in secret. Their minutes are secret. Even who comes to them and makes presenta- tions — and this is a part that seems unfathomable — is secret. So who is there talking to them, telling them about the direction they need to take and the ideas they will then secretly put forward to cabinet, which will then se- cretly make decisions that will impact British Columbia's economy dramatically?

I think most British Columbians would agree that if the economy is going to be impacted dramatically, they s h o u l d b e p a r t o f t h a t d i s cussion, and they should be part of the group that is going to make that decision. To be part of that decision-making process, they have to fully understand what is going on. With this motion to refer this bill to a legislative committee, there is the possibility of groups of citizens coming together and becoming engaged fully in the process. You have a tremendous amount of information that will come before the public.

The difficulty is that if it is directed from cabinet, there will only be one side of a story that will be put forward. What we have seen con- sistently is that cabinet, the Premier, will make a deci- sion in secret, and then th ey will use the substantial resources that government has to put forward their particular point of view. That particular point of view may or may not be in the public interest, and that is something that the pub- l i c s h o u l d b e a b l e t o j u d g e .

B u t w h a t w e h a v e s e e n from this government is that despite the fact that there was a promise not to use the resources of government to put forward political ideas, they very clearly do. There are vast sums — millions of dollars — spent by this government on what is essentially political advertising. There is a staff here of several hundred people who are essentially political communication staff and will put out the government point of view.

There are the resources to buy newspaper ads, to buy television ads, to put out a particular point of view, and we should see that that is something that is very separate from info rming the population. The population is not necessarily informed by that. They simply receive the government message, which is dif- ferent than being properly informed on a matter. [1515] What you would have with the idea of moving around with a legislative committee is the opportunity to have assertions made, but also assertions challenged and ideas challenged.

That's a far more productive and useful tool, rather than simply depending upon gov- ernment messaging which, as I say, is inevitably there to convince. It's more like advertising, to sell rather than to inform. Some of the ideas that need to be thought about or considered by the public, I would say, are ideas like this: is there going to be legislative or public oversight? The answer with Bill 18 is that there's not. This is going to leave everything with the Premier and with cabinet. Certainly, if you take a public meeting, and you meet with the general public….

I have hardly ever heard of a group that comes together in the public saying that they w a n t t o b e r e m o v e d f r o m a decision-making process. I have never been in a meeting where people want to simply trust authority. They want authority to serve their needs. They see the Premier, they see the cabinet, they see the government, and they see all of us here as MLAs as their servants, as they righ tly should. We are their ser- vants. If we are their servants, then we should be able to explain what we are doing. We should be able to defend the decisions we are making.

But with the process that is set up here, it will be difficult for the public to fully understand even the background to the decisions that are being made. If we take a committee and tour the province, then there is the opportunity for people to participate, to question and to understand more completely what is being put forward. Cap-and-trade can take many, many different forms. Organized in a certain way, it can benefit individuals and businesses substantially. Put in another form, it can alter that situation dramatically. So you really want to fully understand what is going on with this.

The cabinet, with Bill 18, can do what it wants. It really can introduce any type of cap-and-trade system that it wants. As I said when I started to speak, cap-and- trade is a very general term, and it can take many differ- ent types of forms. How you organize it is fundamental to its success. Organized poorly, it will benefit certain groups or individuals, and it has the possibility of doing significant harm to parts of the economy. But we have cabinet and the Premier, in secret, making those sorts of decisions. That's fundamentally wrong.

With Bill 18, you also have the general princi- ples not even laid out, the general principles around how this system will work. Not even the barest of ideas about how this system is going to be put in place are there in the legislation. That's something that, as you moved around the province, you could get feedback on from the general public in terms of what should be there as important principles of the legislation. The greenhouse gas allowance allocation is going to have a massive impact on our economy, and that it is going to be done in the secrecy of cabinet should be worrying for everyone.

It should be of concern to all that are involved. They are going to have unlimited ability to distribute carbon allowances, and there is no public process. To me, it is a recipe for disaster. [1520] The premise that this House is built on is that the public has a right to know. The institution was set up

11220 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 so that there are set pieces, set tools, that we have here as the opposition to test how our money is being spent and to test government policy. The test that we apply to it is: is it in the public in- terest? When you try to limit that ability by the public and the opposition to test ideas, you are inevitably moving into dangerous territory. It makes for sloppy decision-making. It opens up the possibility for money spent inappropriately, for policy direction that benefits private interests and hurts the public interest.

W h a t w e h a v e s e e n i s t h a t i n s e c r e c y , t h e d e a l s around the sale of B.C. Rail and the management of the Vancouver Convention Centre Expansion Project were fundamentally flawed and problematic. If you shine the light on government decision-making, you will inevitably get better decisions. But with Bill 18, you have the public removed from the process. By referring this to a committee, there is an opportunity for the pub- lic to understand that and to ask for changes to Bill 18 — changes that would improve it.

There are a number of questions out there about how cap-and-trade is going to work, and you would think that the government would be in place to answer some of these. Perhaps as we move ahead, we will get some of these answers. My hope is that we would move ahead through a committee structure and that we would in- volve the public in answering some of the questions. We need to be asking questions like: how are the permits going to be allocated? That is fundamentally important to whether this cap-and-trade is going to work or not. How many permits are going to be is- sued? What is the cap that we're talking about?

All of these are yet unanswered. What sectors are going to be covered by the regu- lations in Bill 18? That's not even clear, and that's of fundamental importance. How big will the penalties for non-compliance be? That points to the effectiveness. That's a big question. What sort of government over- sight will be in place? Those are all questions that the public needs to be included in. But what you see is that the public has deliberately not been included and will continue to be excluded. With this bill, as with Bill 16, you have some- thing that's quite unusual.

You have not only opposition members and the public concerned about the secrecy, but you even have Mr. Loukidelis. Now, he has raised con- cerns around a specific article. I think it's

article 36. Very clearly, it's not often that the individual who is responsible for freedom of information, for privacy in this province, would be raising concerns around a piece of legislation. But here it is with this legislation and the restrictions or the rules that are put in place with

section 36. I want to come back to the experience that I've had with a different piece of legislation. I've talked about it a lot this session because it's one that I found had a fairly dramatic impact on me personally, and that's the B.C. energy plan. The B.C. energy plan was put for- ward with all of the language that would be appealing to people who cared about th e environment. All of the words were very carefully ch osen so that they would appeal to people who felt that they had a responsibility to the environment, to making sure that they were act- ing in a responsible way for future generations.

With the B.C. energy plan, you had language around green energy, around sustainability. You had language that really would appeal to the values of those that are concerned about the environment. [1525] But what you had with it is the government using that language, using all of the resources that govern- ment has and that business has to spread that message and to spread other messages. Yet when you look at the B.C. energy plan and come to understand it and see what they've put in place, what they have really done is primarily set up a scenario where B.C. Liberal donors and B.C.

Liberal insiders have the potential for making huge sums of money. So even though it is put forward as a policy that is dealing with an environmental issue, the reality is something very different. Well, it can cre- ate cynicism within the public. In fact, that's a danger that we need to be concerned about. With this, you have the same potential. You have the potential with Bill 18 to lay out a scenario, to say that you're dealing with something that the public cares very deeply about, that in dividuals care very deeply about, which is climate change.

Yet there is the potential to set up a scenario where major B.C. Liberal donors will benefit massively. That possibility exists completely. We have seen in the past that those scenarios are set up again and again and again by this government, where the corporate interest is looked after. It's disguised with language that can be appealing. Cap-and-trade. Everybody knows that if you set it up a certain way, you are going to have certain compa- nies benefit massively, so you need to be careful about that.

By referring it, involving the public and making sure that the public is fully engaged, then you make sure not only that doesn't happen but that it does not appear to happen, and that is important. So a public process will allow the public to see that things are done properly. Referral is the proper way to deal with this — referral to a committee that will travel the province and involve the public. In many ways, the reason that the NDP supports this idea is that, fundamentally, there is a different ap- proach to how good legislation should be made.

What you see with the climate change initiative that the gov- ernment talks a great deal abou t is that it's very clearly a top-down approach. It is an approach that is made in secret by a select group of people who are considered the elite. The idea that all of the good ideas that can possibly come forward on this topic are going to be brought…. We'll meet in secret, we'll figure out the direction, and then we'll tell the rest of us how we're supposed to handle this. The NDP approach is fundamentally different, and it's what makes the NDP appealing to me. It is grass roots; it is bottom-up.

It believes that the wisdom of this province sits with the vast majority of people. It believes in the wider public being able to participate in making important decisions. It believes that you in-

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11221 form the public, that you give them the choices and that you allow them to make it. So it's a fundamentally democratic way to approach it. What we're suggesting here is that we begin that democratic approach to dealing with this issue, that we put the important issues in front of the public and al- low them to participate and allow the wisdom of the many to find solutions for all of us. I'll draw your attention to an initiative that the NDP has, which is Sustainable B. C., and just talk a minute about the process — a process that involves the public.

These were ideas that came from groups of individuals in all parts of the province. It worked up through local groups to finally come together as a set of ideas that were looked at by the NDP convention and were strongly endorsed at that convention. [1530] You had ideas around sustainability, around the environment, that came from the grass roots up. The strength that has is that you have those groups within the community that fully understand the topic and believe it is not being…. If rules and regulations are needed, you have the public understanding that it's not being imposed on them.

That's the danger with thes e initiatives. If you don't include the public, they are going to be seen as being imposed on the public. The public will also be very legitimately concerned that a system is being set up that will benefit certain individuals and will have their interests compromised. As I've said, what we saw with the B.C. energy plan is that very clearly that is what has happened. The first example we've had from this government of legislation that was put forward as envi ronmentally beneficial, as it em erg es, we start to see that it was none of that.

In fact, what it was, was a program that would benefit B.C. Liberal donors and that would be to the detriment of the public interest. [K. Whittred in the chair.] The public needs to see, with Bill 18 and with cap- and-trade, that the things pu t in place are in the public interest and are fully unde rstood and that the ideas being considered are fully te sted. With Bill 18, really, the public is going to be removed directly from those decisions, and their representatives are going to be removed from those decisions.

By referring this to a public committee, you deal with that problem to some degree and begin to involve the public in what is a critically important issue. To conclude, what I would say is that the referral motion is clearly the direction that we should be going in. Cap-and-trade is an idea that can work, but if it is going to work, it needs to be done properly. The ex- perience we've had in this House is that when govern- ments move toward secrecy, when they remove the public, then we get policies that are poorly considered. G.

Robertson: I rise to support the motion to refer Bill 18, which was introduced here by the member for Vancouver-Hastings. I think it's a very intelligent and wise motion — to have a good second look at what has been proposed here in this bill and to really open up the whole subject of cap-and-trade and how we use cap-and-trade here in B.C. to achieve the goals that have been set forth in law by this legislation to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 33 percent by the year 2020.

It's is an ambitious goal, a challenging goal, a goal that's supported on both sides of the House and, cer- tainly, by the vast majority of British Columbians. However, the nuts and bolts as to how we achieve this goal and how we, in fact, exceed the goal and beat the goal and achieve these kinds of reductions sooner than later are really what we're here to talk about today.

Cap-and-trade is one such process by which we as a society can grapple with greenhouse gas emissions and reduce them, thereby mitiga ting, hopefully, much of the impact of climate change. [1535] I want to just start by setting the context for the increasingly worrying pace of climate change and a corresponding lack of rapid action and engagement, not only here in B.C. with the citizens of B.C., but around the world.

Political will does come into play, as we saw here, bringing forth legislation to set targets, but it is notably sluggish in implementing measures that enable citizens to make those reductions, to make changes in lifestyle that encourage and enforce reduc- tions in greenhouse gas emissions by industry. The pickle we're in here is that scientists around the world are continuing to report that the pace is far be- yond what was understood even a year or two ago. What warnings came forth from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change are now thought by many scientists to have been not stern or significant enough.

In fact, the changes that we're seeing globally to climate are even more alarming than some of the worst predic- tions of even 12 months ago. In that context, it behooves us in this House to con- tinue to ramp up the rate of change and force the pace on greenhouse gas reductions. The consequences for not acting quickly enough are staggering. If there is one issue that we need to move on, in terms of big legisla- tion, in terms of empowering the citizens of British Columbia to make a difference individual

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0410pm 05
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0410pm 05
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bdfda34113cd044003301d71fc36c1b2fda3f3e5

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