Manitoba Hansard — 10 March 1998 (Sitting 14, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-14

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 14 .• 1:30 p.m., Thesday, March 10, 1998 ISSN 0542-5492

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George IENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Aftlliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. - P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

551 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, March 10, 1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Service-Privatization Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Modesto Aguirre, Vivencia Aguirre, Stephan Boyechko and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr.

Praznik) to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Tracy Dunne, Ernie Raposo, Nila Martinez and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Service-Privatization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than 1,000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the annual report for the year ending June 30, 19 97, of the Public Schools Finance Board. Bon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the report for the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board, the quarterly report, for the nine months ended December 3 1 , 19 97. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to

552 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10 , 1998 the public gallery where we have this afternoon forty five Grade 9 students from Hastings School under the direction of Mr. Barry Wittenvrongel and Mrs. Roxanne McComber. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman). We also have twenty-seven Grades 7 and 8 students from Darwin School under the direction of Mr. Harold Bell. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Bed Availability Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister. Today we learned that 11 patients are in the hallways of St. Boniface Hospital. Regrettably, Madam Speaker, some of those patients have been in the hallway for a number of days. This is a tragedy for those families in terms of dealing with their families and the privacy and dignity of those patients that are in those hallways. These people are waiting for rooms, rooms that this Premier (Mr. Filmon) has closed in previous budgets, rooms that they have paid for and he has closed.

I would like to ask the Premier: what impact on those 11 people has his broken promise made in terms of breaking his promise to put $600 million in capital before the election and breaking his promise and freezing that capital after the election? How many of those patients are in the hallways directly as a result of his broken election promise? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we on this side of the House, along with other members, certainly feel for any patient in the system who has to wait for a bed in a particular facility.

It is by far not the desirable situation I think of anyone administering a hospital or the Minister of Health or anyone on this particular side of the House. What has been happening in health care systems right across the country-as the member well knows, as we have seen changes in technology we have seen shifts of services to long-term care, to home care, and Manitoba has probably one of the best, if not the best home care system in the country-has been a reduction in acute care beds.

With the reduction of dollars we have received from Ottawa, we admit very clearly that our system has been running at its maximum. When you have a flu crisis as we had this year or you have a flood as we did last year, it puts additional strain on the system at the particular time, and that is what we have been experiencing. We hope that we can get through that as quickly as possible. * (1 335) Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, there is not one patient in those hallways today at St. Boniface that is suffering from the flu. It is this government and this Premier that closed the acute care beds.

It is this Premier that has fired the nursing staff and health care staff, and it is this Premier that broke his word. I would like to ask the Premier a further question. What impact on the backlog of patients in hallways has there been from the government's decision last year to close the Odd Fellows home, a home that had 43 patients in it, regrettably, some of whom have moved back into personal care homes? What impact has your decision on your facilities made on our line-ups at our crisis situation in our hallways? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, there is no doubt that the additional numbers of flu cases that have hit us this year have put strain on the entire system, and there is no doubt, indeed, that we have many patients in acute care beds who are waiting for placement in long-term care facilities. That is why this administration in this budget has committed a sizeable amount of dollars towards long-term care beds which should start to ease part of that. With respect to the Odd Fellows, if I remember that issue correctly, we were dealing with a facility that was very old. It was time-dated.

Surely, the member for Concordia is not asking us to refrain from replacing outdated facilities within our system. That will continue. In fact, some of the personal care home beds

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 553 approved in this budget on top of the 500 new ones are for replacements. If we look across the system, from time to time beds will need to be replaced. If I remember, as well, from my briefings on the Odd Fellows situation, that organization was not interested in actually being the managers of a replacement facility. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, this is just one example of the chaos and crisis in health care with this government and this Premier (Mr. Filmon).

They fire the staff, close the beds before they have any other plan and any other resources, and then they break their election promises on capital. We know from family members of the people who were in the Odd Fellows home before it was closed down completely that those people, many of whom have gone from that home to personal care homes, have blocked the beds from people who may be released from hospitals. Now we get it. You are supposed to build the transition beds before you close the other beds. We get it, and this Premier does not get it. I would like to ask this Premier-and he was warned by Dr.

Evelyn Shapiro: why is he not taking any advice from any health care experts? Why is he just running roughshod over the health care system here in Manitoba, and why has he created the crisis that has resulted in 11 patients sitting in the hallway at St. Boniface Hospital here this morning? Why has he taken these decisions to do this, and why will he not accept responsibility for his cutback after cutback after cutback in health care? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition continues to describe the changes that are going on in the system in a manner that would suggest that the system should not undergo any change. His own member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) in this House and other members of the New Democratic Party have spoken for years about the need to change services. Manitoba has been a leader in developing, for example, the Home Care program. We have tripled, under the Film on administration, the amount of dollars that go into home care.

In fact, we are being hailed nationally even on the CBC news in the reports of the-Halifax used Manitoba as the example of having a good home care system. We continue to build those services. This is getting the numbers exactly right in terms of acute care beds. We run the system very tightly. No one has denied it on this side of the House, and one of the reasons we have had to do that is because of the reduction of the financial support from the Government of Canada. *

(1340) Health Care System Bed Availability Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Je suis aile a l'Hopital Saint-Boniface cet apres-midi. [Translation] I went to St. Boniface Hospital this afternoon. [English] Is the Minister of Health aware that St. Boniface Hospital, of the 11 patients, all admitted patients, were lying in the hallway?

I talked to a gentleman with double pneumonia who has waited since Sunday for a bed and may have to wait till the weekend, and I talked to an elderly gentleman who had had a heart attack and is lying in the hallway clutching his urinal in his hand as he spoke with me, and he is waiting for a bed. The residents who are in the hallway have to go into a separate room to have bowel movements, but that room is blocked by another patient, so they have nowhere to go, Madam Speaker, as we speak today. Is the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) or the Minister of Health not surprised why we are demanding real dollars this budget, real new money into the health care system to deal with this crisis? There are options you could take today to deal with the bed crisis by putting some funding in to deal with it at least in the interim and help these people who are lying in the hallways. Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we on this side of the House, certainly myself as Minister of Health and the Premier share that concern about those patients who are waiting for rooms in our hospitals. We have not liked the situation either.

That is why when we were advised last, I believe it was December by the Winnipeg Hospital Authority that they

554 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1998 could see they would have an additional requirement for acute care beds, we asked them to identify-and I know members talk about people having paid for beds, but in the parlance of health care, a bed is more than just a bed in a room. It has to be staffed. They identified, in working with the nine hospitals in our facility across our city of Winnipeg, 83 additional beds that they could bring into operation; that meant staff and operate.

They had difficulty doing that because-[inteijection] Well, the member says we fire well, that would imply that people were unemployed and available to work. It was not the case because they have found other employment in a growing home care field and in other parts of health care. So we put into operation the dollars to maximize the acute care beds that the system could identify we could bring into operation.

If we require to provide more, we will certainly look at that, but I tell you today, even if we were to identify dollars to be there, it would not necessarily solve the problem that the member is identifying. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, is the Minister of Health saying that they are not in a position to do something about this crisis when they blamed it on the flu, and we know there is no flu outbreak that is causing this problem today, when they closed 43 beds at Odd Fellows last year, and we told them: keep those beds open until you have alternatives in place, but put those people from those beds into nursing homes?

When they have not been able to open on a short-term basis beds, are they asking the Manitobans, the 11 lying in the hallway-and the nurse who said to me nine years ago they could not take blood in the hallway; today they are doing all the services in the hallway. Are they telling me that they are incapable of dealing with this crisis? Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that they are only putting in $2 million new budget. Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, throughout the last year, as we have seen different areas that required additional funding, the Treasury Board of this government has provided those dollars. The result has been that year over year on base versus base, apples to apples, we have added $1 00 million additional dollars to our system. An Honourable Member: Wrong. *

(1345) Mr. Praznik: The members say "wrong." They would prefer to compare apples to oranges. I think that is unfair, and if they want to judge our total spending they should judge it at the end of the year when we know exactly what we have spent, if they want to do a fair comparison. Madam Speaker, let me tell the honourable member-he references the Odd Fellows. We replaced beds at Deer Lodge, for example, that have been built and opened, and we have not closed the beds that were to be replaced. We have kept them open during this particular time to help ease the system. They are not the best beds.

They are not the best rooms. They are not desirable at all in our modern system of care. They are very old beds. I think there are three persons to a room, but we have kept them open during this period to help ease some of that pressure. Those beds have been replaced already, and those beds are in operation. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, does not the Minister of Health recognize the fact when he was appointed as the new Health minister a year ago, he opened swing beds a year ago, and since then there have been diversions?

Since then there has been a crisis in all of the emergency wards, and despite what the government has pitifully tried to do, through their incompetence and their relying only on the regional authority, they have not been able to deal with this crisis. What are we to tell the families, some of whom we spoke to today at St. Boniface Hospital, about their members who are in the hallway and will remain there for a week and perhaps week after week while the minister talks about planning at his regional health authority? That is not acceptable. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, we have moved well beyond the planning stage.

As we are able, changes are being made in the way we deliver programs. We began in rural Manitoba with regionalization last year, and it has been very, very successful. We see the same kinds of changes happening in the Winnipeg system. Needless to say, when a system undergoes a great period of change there are going to be stresses upon it. The member opposite talks about nine years. What I hear from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer),

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 555 from the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) is that we should tum back the clock in some way and have a very old and antiquated system. The other very key point is all of our provincial health care systems are under added stress because of the reduction of federal dollars. I have not yet heard from the provincial New Democratic Party any criticism of that fact. It totally makes it difficult for us, if what we need is a united front, to tell the federal government that they have to put additional dollars into our health care system. Health Care System Funding Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Yesterday we received a copy of the special warrant which formally modified the 1997-98 budget providing for an additional $98.6 million to be spent on health for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1998. The Order-in Council dated February 18 states clearly that the amount provided by the special warrant shall be added to and is deemed to be part of the appropriation specified in the warrant for the fiscal year for which the warrant is issued.

In other words, $98.6 million has been legally added to the '97-98 budget of the Department of Health so that the real increase in '98-99 is only $1.35 million. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the Minister of Finance search his conscience and stop misleading Manitobans and admit openly and honestly that he is providing not an additional $100 million in his budget but in reality a paltry $1.35 million? Point of Order Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Burrows, on a point of order. Mr.

Doug Martindale (Deputy Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I believe the member for Brandon East's (Mr. Leonard Evans) microphone was not on. I wonder if you could give him the opportunity to just repeat his question. Thank you. Madam Speaker: Well, I am not sure if I just heard him audibly from his seat, but I thought I heard it through my sound system. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Burrows, may I ask the honourable member to whom the question was addressed whether he heard the question-for clarification?

Did the honourable minister hear the question posed? *

(1350) An Honourable Member: Yes, sure. An Honourable Member: Is it in public record? An Honourable Member: Will Hansard hear it? Madam Speaker: I will look into it, and I will assume responsibility for ensuring that the question is appropriately recorded in Hansard. Order, please. At the conclusion of Question Period I will consult with the sound technician to ensure that the member's question does appear on the official record. I assume that there was no point of order, but I assume that satisfies the concerns raised by the honourable member for Burrows. Point of Order Mr.

Gary Kowalski (The Maples): On a point of order. Just to clarify, I understand the way the new system works is that when someone asks a question the mikes around them are turned off and the speakers may be turned off so there is not feedback, so that may be why there are people on this side of the House- An Honourable Member: You are not behind it. Mr. Kowalski: Yes. So it might have something to do with the system. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable member for The Maples. He does not have a point of order, but I thank him for his clarification. I would request that all

556 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1998 members be a little patient. It is a brand-new system, and probably we will have the odd technical glitch until the system has been refined. I know as of yesterday I had difficulty hearing the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), and his mike was on and my sound was full volume. I did address that situation with the sound technician. *** Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): The members opposite do seem more than a little confused, and I would suggest the member for Brandon East talk to his Leader who just a few moments ago stands before us and says cuts, cuts, cuts and talks about cuts in health care funding. Then the member for Brandon East stands up and says that there is $98 million more added to the system in 1997-98.

We have indicated all along the 1998 budget has $100 million more than the 1997 budget, and that is not counting the additional $1 0 million that has also been provided for additional equipment requirements in our health care system, totalling $1 10 million more in 1998 for our budget than 1997. As I told the member opposite yesterday, in 1997-98 if there has been a need in home care, we met that need; if there is a need in our hospital system, we meet that need. If there is a need in our personal care home system, we meet it, and we provide the resources when required at that particular point in time.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Brandon East, with a supplementary question. Mr. Leonard Evans: I will table for members of the House copies of the Order-in-Council. Will the minister read the clear and unequivocal statement in the Order-in-Council which states that the special warrant is deemed to be part of the appropriation specified for the fiscal year for which the warrant is issued? In other words, the 1997-98 budget has been modified, so you cannot in all honesty tell the people of Manitoba that you have added a hundred million dollars.

Will this minister come clean and admit now that he has only got another $1 .35 million in new money for 1998-99? Let that be clear. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Brandon East to pick and choose his words carefully. The language has started to deteriorate in the Chamber of late, and all members are honourable members. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I certainly know what the Order-in-Council says because I was one of the signatories to it.

This member for Brandon East has been in this Chamber long enough and has been around long enough-in fact, he was even in government for a period of time-that he should be able to understand budgets very clearly.

I encourage him to look in the budget document on page 17 and see what the 1998 budget is providing for health care here in Manitoba and look at what was provided in the 1997 budget here in Manitoba, and he will see very clearly an increase of $100 million of additional resources for our health care system, for our hospitals, for our personal care homes, for our home care system and for all of the needs that Manitobans have in terms of our health care system. As I told this member before, we spend almost 35 percent of our budget on health care, the second most of any province in all of Canada.

On a per capita basis, we are spending the third most of any province in all of Canada. That is a substantial commitment to the health care needs of Manitobans. * (1 355) Mr. Leonard Evans: I would like to know very straightforwardly from this minister: why did he hold up the release of this special warrant dated February 18, 1998, until yesterday? That is over two and a half weeks and after his Budget Address oflast week. Why can this minister not be open, honest and straightforward with the people of Manitoba? Mr.

Stefanson: First of all, Madam Speaker, I do not release the Orders-in-Council and, secondly, I am not so certain I accept even what the honourable member said there. I will confirm when it was released because they have certainly been incorrect in the past in terms of providing that kind of information, but I encourage the member for Brandon East to do exactly what he just

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 557 indicated and to look at this budget document and look at page 17 of the budget document and to read the assessments done by organizations like the media, by organizations like the financial reviews that have been done of our budget to date, and he will see very clearly the strong commitment for health care here in Manitoba. We have increased spending in this budget by $200 million, and of that $200-million increase, 50 percent or $1 00 million more has been allocated for the health care needs of Manitobans.

That is a very significant commitment for health care in our province. Health Care System Funding Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, Manitobans know when the Finance minister's credibility is being tested; he starts to shout and rant and rave just like others on that side. Could the Minister of Finance explain why the special warrant says, and I quote, authorizing the further expenditure of$178,478,800 for the purpose of paying expenses incurred or to be incurred in the fiscal year ending March 31, 1998, not in '99?

He has provided $1.3 million for the next year; he has provided all of this money to be spent by the end of this fiscal year. That is what his warrant says. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, some things never change with the member for Crescentwood in terms of the nature of his questions and remaining at the bottom of the gutter. If he needs to talk about credibility- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I believe very similar terminology-! do not have the ruling in front of me-has been ruled unparliamentary previously.

I would ask that the honourable Minister of Finance please pick and choose his words carefully so as not to provoke debate. Mr. Stefanson: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. This is an interesting question being asked by members opposite, and one gets the appearance they do not want us to be adding more money to our health care system.

They seem concerned about the fact that we have added in excess of $90 million to our health care system in 1997-98 to meet the needs in our home care system, in our personal care homes, in our hospital system, and the fact that we have now built into our base budgeting a hundred million dollars more for all of those important services so that that money is there from this day forward on an ongoing basis each and every year to support our hospitals, our personal care homes and our home care system. We believe that is in the best interests of Manitobans.

That will serve us well in terms of our health care needs, and that is why we have built that additional $100 million right into our base budgeting, right into our core budgeting, moving forward. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Finance to confirm or refute the fact that last year his government spent $1.87 billion in its health care system and its increase is nowhere near a hundred million, not even close. It is under half of that. Even if he went back two years, it is under half of a hundred million dollars.

Will he finally confirm that he put $1.3 million new money into this budget for this year? He put in approximately 43 last year, because two years ago he spent 1.870. It already was two years back, and you are saying a hundred million dollars more. Not even close. Not even in the ballpark. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, as usual the member for Crescentwood's numbers are all wrong, and I encourage him to participate in the Estimates process when we get to the Department of Health and other departments because his numbers once again are wrong. I give him the same advice I gave the member for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans): Talk to his Leader who just a few minutes ago stood before us and talked about cuts, cuts, cuts, and now we have these members standing before us talking about the fact that we have added over $90 million to the system, and they seem concerned about that. They seem to think that is not the right thing to do. Well, we know it is the right thing to do. We put those resources in place for our health care system, and we are proud of that. *

(1400) Gaming Control Commission VL T Regulations Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for The Gaming Control Act (Mr. Radcliffe). The Gaming

558 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10 , 19 98 Commission established by this government has largely been silent about the serious issue of problem gamblers and, like the government, does not deny that a problem exists, rather, shrewdly acknowledges the problem, allowing it to be perceived as a defender of the public good, but offers few, if any, solutions. One proposed solution to help problem gamblers is changing VL Ts that indicate exactly how much real money an individual has wagered rather than how many credits and slowing the machines down.

Can the minister indicate if the commission is considering any such changes? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I know the nature of play on machines, VL T machines, has been in the media somewhat of late, and there have been some comparisons with the province of Alberta. I do not have all of the details here before me today, and I will certainly undertake to provide them for the member for The Maples.

I know Manitoba compares very well to other provinces in terms of how quickly you can play the machines, I guess is the simplest way to put it, that ours are at a slower pace than these other machines in other jurisdictions even in terms of accessing them to be putting more money in while you are playing. Again, ours is at a much slower pace so that on a comparative basis our machines are what I would describe as better in terms of precluding the kinds of things that the member for The Maples has talked about.

I will certainly undertake to provide him the detailed comparisons and look forward to any other comments your might have. Internet Gaming Regulations Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): A further question for the same minister: is the commission considering any attempts to regulate Internet gaming as is being done in some U.S. states? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, that is a challenge for all jurisdictions, because certainly my understanding is that it is illegal, something we are working with other jurisdictions, other provinces and with the federal government to address. Addiction Reduction Strategy Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): My last question for the minister is: can the minister responsible for the Gaming Control Commission indicate to this House if this commission is actively examining any regulatory changes designed to help problem gamblers? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I think a couple of things to point out, again, as the member for The Maples knows, just recently, in consultation with the Addictions Foundation, with the Manitoba Hotel Association, the Restaurant and Food Services, the Gaming Control Commission, Lotteries Corporation that they have put in place a problem-gambling customer assistance program which I am told is being very well received by people in the industry. They are recognizing the need to have that kind of a program.

I think that will be a very beneficial program and again, if the member for the Maples gets an opportunity to look at our budget, he will see that this budget that we have just tabled provides an additional $600,000 for the Addictions Foundation, bringing the total commitment now to up over $1 .5 million to provide the additional resources to the Addictions Foundation for the counsellors in the area primarily of providing additional education and counselling services as required.

So again, I know I have had questions like this in the past, and we have said if the Addictions Foundation comes forward with a request and a detailed plan to address a need, that we would provide the resources, and in this budget we are now providing an additional $600,000 to them primarily to provide education, because I think we all can agree in this Chamber-we might have some areas we disagree on gaming; I think we can all agree about the importance of education for all of our citizens but particularly our young people. Betel Place Personal Care Home Construction Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, the current Minister of Finance who presides over a balanced budget for the fourth year in a row and- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 559 Ms. Barrett: I have not finished my question yet. And also he presides over a slush fund of somewhere around half a billion dollars.

He attended with me on June 2, 1994 almost four full years ago, the ground-breaking ceren:.onies for a 1 00-bed personal care home facility in Winnipeg which was to be called Betel Place. ! w�uld like to ask the Minister of Finance how he JUStifies almost four years of inaction on this project that would have alleviated fully one-third of the immediate shortage of personal care home beds in Manitoba, thereby reducing the abysmal situation of seniors _and critically ill patients staying in the hallways ofhospttals for a week or more. How does he justify that? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): What the member has flagged is the freeze that we as an administration had to put on our capital program because the cost of financing that particular program, as we looked at our reductions and transfer payments and other things, at that particular time we would not have been able to bear it, so we had to put a freeze on that particular program. You know, again, members opposite seem to ignore the fact that we have had substantial reductions in support from Ottawa, and that has put a great pressure on our whole budgetary system. There is no doubt about that.

I am pleased to tell her that the Betel project is one of those projects that has been approved. The Betel organization has had a change in their priority, and we are currently negotiating for another sponsor. Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, as I table a letter from the previous Minister of Health dated February 21, 1995, over three years ago, after the federal cuts in transfer payments were announced, acknowledging, and I quote: the importance of this vital project, end quote, and pledging that construction would begin, quote: early this year in 1995, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) to explain these four years of inaction on this particular personal care home and others that they had announced prior to the last provincial election with the Minister of Finance's own words in this House this afternoon, and I quote, if there is a need in the personal care home system, we will meet that need. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, there is no one on this side of the House who, if we had our druthers, would not have wanted to be in the ground on those projects. We certainly would have wanted to proceed with them.

One of the difficulties all provincial governments, including provinces governed by New D�m�cratic Party administrations, have faced has been stgmficant reductions in support from the national government that continue to want to appear to promote a national medicare and health care system, but in reality continue to withdraw resources from it.

Because of some very sound management, because of the efforts across this province where we have seen our economy pull ahead, it is now generating significantly more wealth for us as Manitobans, and we are now able to come back with our capital program and get into the ground in these much-needed projects. *

(1410) Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier how he can possibly think Manitobans will believe his current promises on personal care home bed construction when his previous Health minister promised it would be in early 1995, his current Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) said it was a marvellous thing that was going to go ahead immediately, and when the Betel group was prepared as late as last year to go ahead with the construction of this personal care home. How can Manitobans possibly believe this government on their current promises? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, because Manitobans know that this government has constructed a thousand additional personal care beds since it has been in office this decade, and in addition to that has made commitments for more in this budget that will be carried out. Correctional Facilities Risk Assessment Procedure Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.

The government recently touted and bragged about a new risk assessment for inmates which the government claimed would, and I quote from the annual report, enhance the institution's ability to identify inmate risk factors and to respond with appropriate security.

560 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1998 My question to the minister: given that this government in the last week alone is the one that has closed the doors of a hospital and opened the doors of prisons, I ask is this new so-called state-of-the-art risk assessment procedure now in place. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, in our corrections facilities there is always a need to ensure public safety on the one hand, and to ensure that there is an appropriate reintegration of prisoners into society at the appropriate time.

Milner Ridge is a medium-or low-security institution. A risk assessment is done in respect of each prisoner. I would indicate that the system is not perfect, and yet many other provinces look to our specific risk assessment system as one of the best in Canada and, indeed, are considering and have adopted aspects, if not all of it. So while I admit that no system in governing prisoners is perfect, we do have a very good system and good administrators who administer that assessment. Mr. Mackintosh: I ask the minister: how can Manitobans have any confidence left in this kind of rhetoric?

I feel sorry for the governments across Canada looking at this province. How can we have confidence when Milner Ridge escapee Kevin Shale, who was convicted of assaulting his former girlfriend and confining her and her five-year-old daughter, we are told, over the course of two hours, be classified by this government as a low risk, and get this, guilty of offences against property? Is this zero tolerance? Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, one of the benefits that we are seeing as a result of the implementation of a number of recommendations over the last year is that there are various levels of ensuring that the public is safe in various particular cases, even if one aspect is found wanting or a mistake is made. We now have a rapid deployment of resources to ensure public safety because of that communication of information.

I think in respect of particularly the Lavoie recommendations we have seen an integration of communication that assists law enforcement officers in ensuring that people are in fact kept safe and that prisoners are returned as quickly as possible if an error is made. Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister then explain why Remand Centre escapee Wayne Taylor, who I understand is still at large and who was facing three robbery charges and who I understand had a history of an escape, is given minimum-security status and let out into the middle of the city of Winnipeg to take out the garbage?

During the last campaign when the Premier closed the prison doors, on which side of those bars were the prisoners? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, this is the same member, the member for St. Johns, who has asked us to implement aspects of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry that in fact has asked us to turn the Brandon Correctional Institution and The Pas Correctional Institution into open-door prisons. This is what this member wants us to do, and I say that is the wrong thing to do.

What the people of Manitoba need are secure facilities, and I am committed to giving them those secure facilities by the appropriate facilities being in place. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Nagano Winter Olympics Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): The 1998 Winter Olympics in Nagano came to a close just last month, and I would like to take a moment to give Manitoba Olympians the recognition that they so richly deserve. Madam Speaker, 1998 was Canada's best Winter Olympics showing ever.

I congratulate all the athletes for achieving a fourth-place finish for Canada at these games. I would like to specifically single out the Manitobans who competed in these games, hockey players Jennifer Botterill, Sami Jo Small and Theoren Fleury and speed skaters Susan Auch and Mike Ireland. On behalf of the government of Manitoba and all members of the Legislature, I would like to offer our most heartfelt congratulations to these athletes who proudly represented Manitoba.

Although some ofthese athletes may work and train elsewhere, I know they consider Manitoba home, and in representing Canada they were also representing Manitoba. The efforts of our athletes met with unprecedented success garnering 15 medals: six gold,

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 561 five silver and four bronze. Susan Auch elicited pride from all Manitobans when she took the podium to receive her silver medal in speed skating. She is truly an inspiration to us all, Madam Speaker. All of their efforts, including the daily commitment, physical strength and mental endurance, represent the incredible sacrifice these athletes have given to being the very best they can be in their chosen field of competition. I think this level of dedication and simply the achievement of getting to the Winter Olympics is outstanding.

I wish them all the best in their future competitions or their supporters. It is not coming from citizens whose demands are often written off as unrealistic given Manitoba's past fiscal problems. It goes on, Madam Speaker, to explain how one person came in from Dauphin who was not provided with the proper care because of the lack of pediatric care in the community. I think this editorial speaks volumes in terms of the real problems of health care cuts in the Westman region and indeed the whole province of Manitoba. and in their achievements in life beyond sport.

They * (1420) have done Manitoba proud, and I believe all members will join me in saying to them: thank you. Health Care System-Funding Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I rise to express the deep concern in the Brandon and Westman community over the cuts to the health care system in that area, and I want to read a portion of a Brandon Sun editorial from February 20. It says: Health care cash shortages clear. Brandon is not getting enough money for health care. That statement is no secret to anyone who works in the medical profession or has needed access to treatment in this community.

However, while the message has not changed, the messenger did. Just over a year ago, former Health minister Jim McCrae hand picked Earl Backman to head up the Brandon Regional Health Authority. He was chosen for a number of reasons, but one is that he showed the ability to get blood out of a stone in his tenure as city manager of this community. Perhaps the province thought Mr. Backman could wave his magic wand and this community would be transformed into a health care nirvana.

However, now that he has been on the job for enough time to get a read on things, it has become clear to him that there is not enough money in the RHA budget. This is a quote from Mr. Backman: There has been about $6 million cut to the Brandon General Hospital over the past five years. Mr. Backman said: My gut feeling is that it has gone $2 million too far. This criticism cannot be written off as the stuff of partisan politics. This is not coming from opposition politicians Point of Order Bon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order, and it is not to direct my point of order specifically at the honourable member for Brandon East but at other honourable members as well. It has been brought to my attention that during the contribution just made by the honourable member for Brandon East, there was a reference to another member of this House and he used the member's name.

Now this is not directly at the honourable member for Brandon East, because there are other members, and I regret to say including members on this side of the House, who have been doing this of late. Your Honour brought to our attention the sort of deteriorating nature of certain things happening here. One of the reasons I like being a member of the Legislature so much is that there are some traditions and some usages and some respect that we accord, or we talk about it at least, to the rules of the place and the customs and usages.

I have noticed honourable members referring to other honourable members by their names. It is very clear in all of the rules and usages and traditions that that is not done. I do not do this to get after my honourable friend from Brandon East because he is my friend and so are a whole lot of other members around here, but I raise this because I think that I would like us to remind ourselves that we are very, very fortunate to be members of this place, that we are honoured to be able to participate in an institution's activities, an institution which has hundreds and hundreds of years ofhistory behind it.

562 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1998 So, Madam Speaker, I wonder if honourable members would agree with me that this is one area of our activities where we might want to remind ourselves that members of this House are to be addressed through the Chair and by their title or their constituency but not by their names. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Brandon East, on the same point of order. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Yes, Madam Speaker, on the same point of order. Well, I find myself in complete agreement with the honourable minister, the honourable member for Brandon West.

I have no problem. As a matter of fact, I pride myself in 28, almost 29, years in this House of following the rules and not addressing any individual by his or her proper name. They should be addressed by their constituency, or indeed a member of the cabinet should be addressed by his or her ministerial title. I only point out-maybe the minister did not follow me on this-I was simply quoting. This is a quotation from a newspaper, and I do not know, either I am going to quote it properly or it falls apart.

That is the only reason I mentioned the honourable member's name; otherwise, I certainly would not have addressed him with his proper name. I would address him with his title or his constituency name. I appreciate his point of view. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I think, with the greatest respect, I have heard the case made. I recognized that technically the government House leader did indeed have a point of order, but I was cognizant of the fact that it was a quotation from a newspaper article. That is why I did not rise.

But it never hurts to remind all honourable members in the House that periodically we all do deviate from the rules on one occasion or another, and all members are to be referred to by their constituency, honourable member for such and such a constituency. But I do believe the honourable member for Brandon East did not violate our rule, because he was quoting from the newspaper. The honourable Leader of the official opposition, on the same point of order. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, you had the responsibility and duty during the budget to call to order the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) in his direct reference to Premier Gary Filmon throughout the address, and you failed to do so. The budget was presented in a very nonpartisan way, of course, but the Budget Address I would suggest you review it and, I think, the 1Oth anniversary of Gary Filmon's leadership and Premier Filmon's outstanding leadership, et cetera. Perhaps the government House leader would want to stand on his feet when the Minister of Finance was presenting his budget last Friday afternoon.

I think it would be a career-ending-[interjection] No, I am just saying that when you have a formal document like this as opposed to statements, it gets to be something we expect a Speaker to deal with. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, two very quick points. The Leader of the Opposition might have noted I waited for the honourable member for Brandon East to finish his comments before I raised the point of order, out of a matter of courtesy, and I am not really pleased that the Leader of the Opposition would speak the way he has about me.

I also take note of the fact that the printed budget demonstrates the Minister of Finance actually did that thing that I was talking about, complaining about, and I have spoken to the Minister of Finance about it. I am not trying to be partisan about this. I was trying to make this a direction you might give to all of the honourable members of this House, because it is a tradition I think I respect and I think others do, too. Madam Speaker: I thank all honourable members. I believe we have dealt with this thoroughly. I am sure we all have the same understanding of the rule. Misericordia General Hospital Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, the Misericordia Hospital has been an important part of my community for 75 years. It has also played a significant role in the Catholic community across Winnipeg, and through its Villa Rosa home for single mothers and its

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 563 obstetrical services in northern communities, it has also served countless thousands ofManitobans. Since 1990 it has been under severe pressure from this government, and this has led to intense and I believe unconscionable pressure on the staff of this institution. For eight years the government has called into doubt the future of this hospital. It was widely speculated that Don Orchard and his successor, the present Minister of Environment (Mr. McCrae), would close the hospital down and they certainly tried. Emergency services and psychiatry were cut.

Both were badly needed services in neighbourhoods where many people are in assisted living communities or on their own in extremely difficult economic and social circumstances. But, Madam Speaker, the community fought back, and although we lost psychiatry, we saved emergency for a time, until last year when the government again forced the hospital to close its 24-hour emergency service and that in the third busiest emergency room in the province where patients were more seriously ill and far more needed to be admitted to hospital.

Now the government at one stroke has taken away most of the hospital functions that were left to the Misericordia. There will be no surgery except ophthalmology. There will be no intensive care unit, taking out of the whole medical system an efficient and necessary unit. Removal of the ICU also leaves in question the long-term prospects for ophthalmology itself.

What was a hospital will become a long-term care facility, and though those beds are certainly needed in our system, the government itself must bear responsibility for the crisis they have created in personal care homes by their refusal to make good on their election promises of 1995. Those who need those personal care beds need them today, Madam Speaker, not two years from now when the Misericordia beds may become available. At no point during these last eight years has the government provided us with the health or demographic profile of the community the Misericordia serves.

At no point have the government planners met with our community. At no point have there been health assessments of any of the neighbourhoods on both sides of the river which are served by the hospital. What we have seen from this government is a concerted undermining of the Misericordia Hospital and an apparent disdain for its community. CFL All-Star Hockey Classic Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): I would like to take this opportunity to recognize and extend congratulations to all the members of the Canadian Football League who recently took

part in the CFL All Star Hockey Classic held in Portage Ia Prairie. Winnipeg Blue Bomber player Brendan Rogers and his wife Karyn founded this special event in 1997 in order to raise money for two Manitoba charities, those being the Portage Plain United Way and the Variety Club of Manitoba. These two charities will receive the proceeds from this now annual event. Last weekend about 100 players from eight CFL clubs from all across Canada were in Manitoba last weekend for this two-day hockey tournament.

As well, those players attended a Friday evening banquet here in Winnipeg and a Saturday evening social in Portage Ia Prairie. It is estimated that these two Manitoba charities will share in approximately $10,000 in proceeds. I would like to applaud all the players who took

part in this fun and festive event. Along with raising money for both these charities, Brendan Rogers's goal for this event was to get players together and bring them closer to their fans. In my mind, this goal has been surpassed. It was certainly an inspiration to observe the CFL players with delighted young children as they signed autographs and spoke with them. In this era of extravagance and sometimes outrageous behaviour on the stage of North-American sport I would like to commend the hundred-plus Canadian Football League players for their commitment shown to our communities.

This weekend these players demonstrated to those that keep the league going, their fans, a very high degree of professionalism. The Canadian Football League did us proud this weekend and in return gave something to the fans as well who have been supporting the league for years. Madam Speaker, once again, on behalf of the members of this Assembly and myself, I would like to congratulate the CFL players. Thank you. *

(1430) Nagano Winter Olympics Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to our Canadian Olympic Athletes

564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1998 who participated at the Nagano, Japan, Winter Games. These games produced Canada's best overall showing of any Winter Olympics, resulting in six gold, five silver and four bronze medals for our athletes for a total of 15 Olympic medals. We are particularly proud of the accomplishment of our athletes, which include our very own Susan Auch, silver medalist in the women's 500 metre speed skating. Susan, once again, rose to the challenge, proving to the world that she is a true Olympian.

Susan also challenged in the women's 1,000 metre speed skating, placing in the top half of all competing speed skating athletes. While we are extremely proud of Susan's accomplishments, we are also proud of the women's speed skating gold medalist, Canadian Catriona Le May Doan. These two athletes rank one, two in the world 500 metre race and were a mere three-tenths of a second apart in their recorded times. Susan Auch was raised and attended school in Transcona. From an early age she was encouraged by her proud family to practise speed skating at the Winnipeg Speed Skating Club.

Susan is coached by her brother Derrick Auch who is also the national coach. Having spoken to Mr. and Mrs. Auch, I know that they are very, very proud of their children. At a 1994 Transcona community event, my wife, Sheila, and I had the opportunity to join with our community in honouring Susan's accomplishments at the 1994 Lillehammer Winter Olympic Games. Susan won the silver medal in the women's 500 metre speed skating race at that time. We still have a picture of Susan and another Transcona Olympic bobsled athlete, Mr. Langford, proudly displayed in our home.

To the Auch family and to Susan in particular, we say: well done. May your spirit and determination inspire other local athletes to compete at the Olympic Games. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Third Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate, on the proposed motion ofthe honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for Crescentwood, who has 24 minutes remaining. Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, when I concluded my remarks yesterday I had noted that, in fact, the budget figure for Health which is quoted in the Minister of Finance's budget this year for 1997-98 is, in fact, incorrect and has been incorrect since he tabled Volume 1 of Public Accounts in September of last year. In other words, he has had seven months to recognize that by law, by the law of this province, by The Financial Administration Act, the budget for last year was amended.

It was amended by a special warrant, and the special warrant raised that budget of $1.825 million, which was noted then at that time, by some $70 million. According to Public Accounts, Volume 1,

Section 4, pages 36-37, the spending in Health for last year was authorized to be $1. 81 billion. It was underspent by $1 1 million. So the real spending was $1 .870 last year. That is the base. That is the bottom. That is where you start from for the new budget, not $1 .825, $1 .870, the actual spending for last year or if you want to even be more forthright you might say: what was the budget amended to? Now some members opposite may not bother to pay much attention to The Financial Administration Act, but it in fact underpins all legislative authority for spending. Let me just quote from the special warrant language. The language says:

whereas the appropriations were not sufficiently provided for by the Legislature or meeting the expenditures incurred or to be incurred for the year ending March 31, 1997. In other words, we did not vote enough money in the budget, according to the government, so they changed the budget. Now that is perfectly legal. You can do that. But once it is changed, it is changed. That is what The Financial Administration Act does. It changes the budget through a special warrant. So the spending last year: budget $1.81 ·billion; spending $1.87 billion. What did they propose to spend this year? They proposed to spend 1.925. I know it is

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 565 all numbers, but that is only $42 million more than they actually spent last year, or barely over 2 percent. Madam Speaker, over two years this government is proposing to put in under $45 million new money into its health care system, not $100 million, not even close to $100 million, not $98 million that they claim in the special warrant, but $43 million over two years.

The Minister of Finance is so far out in fantasyland in regard to the figures he is trying to feed Manitobans that it is embarrassing to have to put it back together factually from his own documents, from Public Accounts, from the special warrants under The Financial Administration Act.

The budget is not a truthful document, because it is not based on the legal adjustments that were made to the budget in 1996-97 that were passed under The Financial Administration Act during that fiscal year, that were public in the summer of 1997, that the Finance minister knew and knew well when he stood up and said there was $100 million new money for health care. That is not factually correct. The Finance minister plays fast and loose with reality when he says that. That is not simply a political problem, Madam Speaker.

That is a serious problem for Manitobans when they begin to understand that the basic numbers in this budget are not truthful numbers. They do not reflect the adjusted budget of this government last year. I think that is a shame. I think it is a shame that Manitobans cannot trust the numbers that are put forward by their Finance minister when he rises in his place in this Chamber where we are all supposed to be honourable and where we are never supposed to shade the truth.

It is shameful when a minister of the Crown so clearly and so knowingly puts forward numbers that he himself has signed off differently when he signed off Public Accounts. He cannot claim that these were late adjustments that could not be reflected. He is able to find tiny little footnotes smaller than PC Party of Manitoba on their election signs and put them in his financial statements, but he cannot find a little footnote to tell people the truth about what was spent on health care last year. That is a shame. That is just plain shameful. *

(1440) Let me move on to another area where I think this government has a sorry record of shading reality. Madam Speaker, according to Statistics Canada, in January of 1997, a year and a month ago, there were 540,600 Manitobans at work, full and part time, seasonally adjusted. Now, the Finance minister has said that there were some 12,800 new jobs added last year. If that was the case one would expect employment in January of 1998 to have been 12,000 above 540,000, in other words 552,000. That is what one would expect; 12,000 plus 540,000-552,000. What was January '98's employment?

Madam Speaker, 542,400, just a tad short. A little over 10,000 short of the number the minister has repeated over and over and over again. In fact, from January to January there was a growth of 1,800 jobs, not 12,800, not 15,000, as the minister said in his prebudget announcements, not 17,000 private sector new jobs, as the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism likes to trumpet. In total, there were 1,800 more Manitobans at work in January this year than last year.

Now there is a problem when you suggest to Manitobans that there are a whole lot more jobs out there than there really are, because people look at their children and they look at their neighbours and they look at themselves and they say, well, gosh, ifthere are that many more good jobs out there, how come none of the folks I know got one? How come my kids still cannot find work?

They begin to think of themselves as failures because they like to believe their elected official and the Minister of Finance or the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism or the Premier when those figures tell them that there are 15,000 new jobs. They say to themselves, gosh, you know, how come I did not get one of those jobs? I sure put in enough resumes. I went to enough places and applied. I really tried hard. If there were 15,000 jobs out there, I think I might have gotten one of them. They feel pretty badly because they feel like they are failures.

The truth is there were only 1 ,800 new jobs last year, January to January. The numbers are there for the members opposite to read, Statistics Canada, Manitoba Bureau of Statistics. On Friday of this week they will publish the numbers for February, and we will all look at them.

566 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1998 The Minister of Finance also talked about a growing labour force. Well, let us look at that one too. In January of 1997, there were 582,200 people in the labour force of Manitoba, seasonally adjusted in all cases. Now a growing labour force would suggest that today there ought to be more than 582,000, a couple more maybe. What is the real world? Well, the real world is there are 575,200. In other words, over this past year the labour force shrank by 7,000 people.

Seven thousand Manitobans either gave up or moved away or withdrew in some form from the labour force. So in fact the Minister of Finance is factually in error again. The labour force is not growing. In 1997, it shrank by 7,000 workers. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Now, of course, if the labour force shrinks, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that makes the unemployment number look better. In fact, of course, and this may be the strategy being followed by the government now, if we could ship all of our unemployed people to another province, we would have a zero unemployment rate.

We would not have created any more jobs, but all of the people who were looking for work had gone elsewhere. Boy, that would be a real solution to a problem, would it not? It is almost like the Minister of Health's solution to hospitals, close a lot ofbeds and close a hospital. You know, hospitals are a lot more efficient without patients in them. They work a lot better, and I am sure that is the Minister of Health's understanding. If we just close enough beds in enough hospitals, those ones will work just fine. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the minister also takes great pride in announcing just how buoyant our unemployment picture is by comparison with other provinces. We are either second or third, depending on the month, Saskatchewan and Alberta being the other holders of those first or second places. But, you know, this is one of the great tragedies that Manitoba hides.

I would say in a quite nonpartisan way that this is something that all governments in Manitoba have some responsibility for because, in our province, our aboriginal our aboriginal brothers and sisters who are Status aboriginal people are not counted in the unemployment numbers. They are not surveyed, they are not counted, they are not part of the sample, neither are members of the armed forces nor people in prison, for obvious reasons. Aboriginal people on reserve and Status aboriginal people do not count for unemployment numbers. Why is that a particular problem?

I think the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Newman) understands why it is a problem in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, to a somewhat lesser extent in Alberta, but particularly in Manitoba and Saskatchewan because Status aboriginal people comprise 60,000 or 70,000 potential members of the labour force, and they have an unemployment rate of75 to 85 percent. So the real number of unemployed in Manitoba, the real social cost of unemployment, the burden for families, should include our aboriginal citizens who are not employed but would like to be and that number is over 40,000.

In other words, it is twice what our official count is. Now it would be not such a distortion if every province had the same proportion of aboriginal people. Then at least all the numbers would be understated by roughly the same proportion, assuming the same conditions applied in other provinces. But, of course, the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs would be the first to tell us that that is not the case, that Saskatchewan and Manitoba have by far the highest proportion of aboriginal people in their population, particularly Status aboriginal people, of any other province in Canada.

Manitoba and Saskatchewan, in that sense, are unique. So when we compare our unemployment rate to say Ontario's or Quebec's or to take the extreme case, Newfoundland, where white men exterminated the aboriginal population, the Beothuk, it is not a fair comparison. Our real unemployment rate, not counting underemployment, not counting discouraged workers, is over 12 percent. That is the burden our economy carries. That is the social cost our economy carries.

That is the wasted opportunity our economy carries, because we have not had a strategy that was effective in reaching out into the Status aboriginal community and finding economic development opportunities, training opportunities. This government's answer-cut access

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 567 programs. This government's answer-cut Indian and Metis friendship centres, cut your grants to aboriginal organizations. That is their answer to the shame of unemployment and underemployment amongst Status aboriginal people in Manitoba.

So neither Saskatchewan nor Manitoba ought to be taking credit for having the second or third lowest unemployment numbers in the country, because when you count in Status aboriginal people in Quebec and Ontario and provinces west to British Columbia and actually begin to sample them, what you find is that Manitoba and Saskatchewan have an unemployment rate that looks suspiciously like the Maritimes and may, in fact, be slightly higher.

That is the burden we are carrying. * (1450 ) So it is not just a problem of the Finance minister rising in his place and saying we had great job growth, that is not factually correct, is not borne out by Statistics Canada or by his own Bureau of Statistics numbers.

It is not just him saying that we have had a rising labour force when in fact it fell by 7,000 last year, it is the fundamental error that is built into Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and all Canadian provinces but is particularly important for Manitoba and Saskatchewan, of not even counting our Status aboriginal citizens as in the labour market, interested in being in the labour market or unemployed. We do not count them and then we wonder why we have such a social burden. We have the same structural unemployment in this province as does the Maritimes, and in fact it is higher than Nova Scotia.

It is time we started being honest with ourselves about the real burden and the real scale of this problem, recognize the real economic cost, the real social cost imposed by our failure to take seriously this burden. I want to conclude my remarks by focusing on some of the northern issues that I think are not addressed adequately in this budget at all. The province maintains or has responsibility for some 22 airports in northern Manitoba. We are all sadly familiar with what happened at Little Grand. That is not the first northern crash; it probably, unfortunately and sadly, will not be the last.

We have a serious infrastructure problem with our airports. It is a legacy of some federal problems and it is a legacy of inaction on a provincial level, a serious, serious problem for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Findlay). I did not see resources directed at this problem in any clear way in this budget. We put $5 million more into highways but we also lost money from the infrastructure program, and the net result of this is a wash. There is really not more money for roads this year; there are just a few different ways of getting it into the budget.

Highways 373 and 391, Highway 6 to Cross Lake, Thompson to Lynn Lake, these roads are a disgrace, but they are more than a disgrace, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because they extract their own costs. They extract costs on vehicles, they extract costs on public safety, they extract accident costs, they extract economic costs. It is not just a question of the roads being in poor condition and those driving on them having to bump up and down a lot. There is also a serious economic, health and other kind of cost associated with the terrible conditions of those roads.

I know they are difficult to maintain, but other provinces manage to maintain remote roads at a standard that is better than ours. I have driven on some of those roads. We can do better. On health, there was a nod in the direction of diabetes, but I do not think the government has yet even begun to come to terms with the costs to our health system and to our families of the crisis in diabetes, particularly, although not exclusively, but particularly among our aboriginal populations. When you begin to require long-term care for serious diabetes the costs run into the tens of thousands of dollars a year.

If you lose a kidney or two kidneys and wind up on dialysis the costs multiply by factors of 10. This province is still giving people taxi rides to Morden twice a week to get dialysis. One of the doctors to whom I spoke in the kidney, nephrology area, I guess they call it, said to me, you know, if they had just given up $2 million a year for the last five years, we would not have a crisis. Instead they now have to give us $1 0 million and it is going to take us a couple of years to catch up on the crisis. So when you do not plan and you do not budget and then you have to play crisis management, it not only

568 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1998 kills people, it kills any semblance of order in the health care system, and the diabetes epidemic is testimony to that mismanagement. It is so sad when members opposite, instead of acknowledging this problem, get up and defend a phoney allocation to the health care budget which they know not to be true. That is sad when that happens. We are also still medivacking patients out of the North for birth which, as far as I know, is a normal human event that does not require acute care treatment every time there is a birth.

Why after all of the 10 and more years have we been still unable to put in place midwifery for northern deliveries? Why are we still behind other provinces in this regard? Why are we medivacking aboriginal people? Mr. Deputy Speaker, if we do not come to terms with some of these ongoing crises, we will never get the critical situation in our health care system addressed. It will certainly not be addressed by putting $1.3 million more into the health care system and pretending that it is a hundred million.

It will not be addressed by pretending there is a hundred million more this year over last year, when in fact the Health minister knows very well that it is $43 million at best if they spend what they are talking about spending this year. They did not spend what they were talking about spending last year. They underspent their budget by $11 million last year after having passed a special warrant for $70 million. There is no plan, there is no direction; there is chaos.

I feel deeply as I would hope the Health minister would for that elderly man with a heart attack sitting on a stretcher in full view with his urinal in his hand wondering, I think, whatever happened to the promise of a universal health care system that treated Canadians with dignity and compassion when they needed it. Where was this Health minister for that man, Mr. Deputy Speaker? Hon. David Newman (Minister ofNorthem Affairs): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise to speak to the budget and speak with very considerable support for the budget in relation to the departments for which I have a responsibility. I want to start off with Energy and Mines. I want to indicate the sort of posture, the sort of position, the sort of role that these departments are playing in government for the benefit of Manitobans. We are as a government in business for the people of Manitoba. We understand the ecosystem of entrepreneurship.

Our focus is to encourage profitability and success through the encouragement of business and enterprise for the benefit of all Manitobans. I like to tell the industry in mmmg that our government is like a silent partner operating within the context of a relationship in good faith, wherein we partner on the basis of consultation. We share in success as Manitobans through taxes, royalties and fees which we impose.

We share in losses and risks through subjecting our natural resources and living things to development with no certainty about consequences that is absolute and through investing in infrastructure to support exploration and development. As government we encourage success, and I would like to share with you the concerted consistent long term effort that we have put forth over the course of the past 10 years to attain that success. We are driven by three guiding principles, I would suggest. Firstly, our fiscal or economic agenda culminating in the 1995 balanced budget legislation.

In 1995 we tabled the first balanced budget in our province in 22 years. We introduced balanced budget legislation and consistent to that legislation the budgets of 1996 and 1997 were also balanced. Of course, as of this past Friday, we presented the fourth balanced budget in a row. *

(1500) Secondly, the long-term investment in our social agenda is intended to decrease dependence on government and therefore taxpayers of Manitoba and also to improve the control over destinies and the spirits ofthe individuals who are dependent. You might say, as we have said before, the best form of social assistance is a job. Thirdly, the commitment to the sustainable development of our economy through a balanced approach between environmental protection and economic development. We are committed to designating areas for environmental protection while at the same time celebrating economic opportunities, development opportunities to serve current needs

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 569 without jeopardizing the capacity to provide for the needs, aspirations and desires of future generations. Those being the principles, I now want to take a look more specifically at some of the issues which directly relate to our budget. We have worked to make our province and our resources attractive to business development. In our time in government, we have held all major taxes steady without any increases. Our geographic position is a plus for Manitoba. Its central position in North America gives our province an unbeatable set of attractions for business.

Of course, in addition, our costs of doing business are amongst the lowest in Canada. We have a highly developed infrastructure, low-cost electric power, a skilled multilingual workforce, including-and it is not often enough mentioned-seven aboriginal languages, good labour relations and low absenteeism. Manitoba has a diversified, sophisticated economy and one of the lowest unemployment rates in Canada. It is important to note that all of these positive aspects are challenged because of the volatile international market conditions.

Low prices for precious and base metals are making headlines throughout the world and are playing havoc with producing mines and exploration companies. Clearly current prices are on the downside ofthe price cycle. Although we cannot control these price cycles in Manitoba, we can influence the competitiveness of our province in attracting exploration and mining activity. We do appreciate that industry must continue to be competitive globally, and we in government must continue to do our part to offer a competitive business environment.

There are new challenges that government and industry must meet, and I am going to address four main areas where we are confronting such challenges. The first of the challenges I would like to outline is related to the cost of doing business in Manitoba. In the March 6 budget tabled, on the tax side, the following addressed this particular challenge. The budget extended Manitoba's overall tax freeze for an 1 1th consecutive year. It increases our debt payment to $150 million, which is double the required amount.

Manitoba's basic personal income tax rate, currently 52 percent of basic federal tax, will be reduced to 51 percent for the 1998 tax year, and further reduced to 50 percent on January 1, 1999. The corporate capital tax exemption will be increased from $3 million of taxable capital to $5 million, effective for taxation years ending after January 1, 1999. An exemption from motive fuel tax will be allowed on propane fuel used in drying mineral ore concentrates and for heating processing plants and underground mines.

This exemption represents an estimated savings to the mining industry of $1.3 million on a full-year basis. The payroll tax rate will be reduced from 2.25 percent of taxable payroll to 2.15 percent of taxable payroll, effective January 1, 1999. This reduction represents an estimated $250,000 savings to Manitoba's mining industry. Custom-developed software and custom computer programming services became exempt from sales tax, effective midnight, March 6. That is regarded by the mining industry as a very positive kind of contribution to their ability to be competitive and creative in their exploration.

In terms of expenditures, $3.6 million, or $1 million more than last year, will be spent on capital projects related to infrastructure development in a number of northern communities. We are making a major contribution to develop the potential of Canada's only major arctic port at Churchill. Manitoba will contribute $6 million to harbour dredging over the next two years. A commercially viable arctic port will further enhance Manitoba's position as the northern gateway to the mid North American trade corridor. This has many positive potential benefits for mining.

This budget continues the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program and the Prospectors Assistance Program which have been very successful in increasing the investment in exploration in the province of Manitoba to $41.7 million, an increase of 4 percent for 1997, and this follows a 23 percent increase in 1996. This, of course, bodes well for the future of Manitoba's hope to find new mines and potentially create major presences in the North, like the Flin Flons and Thompsons, which exist because of mining and have for many decades, in the case of Flin Flon over 70 years, in the case of Thompson for over 40 years.

A second major challenge for mining is related to the work we are doing to collect and disseminate base-line information about Manitoba's geology. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I clearly understand from what I have heard

570 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1998 from people involved in the industry, the exploration business, is that the provision of geological data is one of the most important services our department can provide. Therefore, my department not only has continued without reduction our geological surveys services branch budget, but for 1998-99 fiscal year it increased the budget. A third challenge relates to land access issues.

Historically, land access and security of tenure have been major issues for mining and exploration companies operating in Manitoba, and on this issue we want to ensure the mining industry has a voice in relation to government on issues of land access, but we want to retain our ability to meet the needs of other interest groups in the province foremost, amongst which are the needs of our ecosystem and the needs of aboriginal people of the North. The historic land access issues have been treaty land entitlement and the Northern Flood Agreement, both related to obligations to First Nations.

Both of these are well on the way to implementation and indeed there is only one of the recognized claims that has yet to be resolved. The challenge of implementation is there still, but the certainty of having these deals made is now emerging for the benefit of mining in the province of Manitoba and for the benefit of the people of the North. The challenges for Manitoba are that many stakeholders have need for land access, but there is only so much land available.

Therefore, the province has to balance needs relating to such interest as mining and exploration activities, aboriginal communities, hydroelectric development, forestry activities and protection of natural area. The fourth challenge concerns our Manitoba permitting and regulatory system and our challenges to establish a system that will encourage continued and new development in the province while protecting the interests of all Manitobans. There have been many steps taken to streamline our legislation and our regulations, and we have been recognized by the mining industry for what we have done in this respect.

In fact, the Manitoba Mining Association believes our regulations and administrative procedures are the most efficient and effective in the country, with delays unheard of, and that they should be considered a model for Canada. They appreciate the regular consultation we give them on regulatory reform and they are impressed by the fact in about half a year we can complete permitting that takes some provinces years to finish. *

(1510) I want to share with all honourable members the new culture that is emerging in the North in relation to the ecosystems and the people of the North. Just as we are a good-faith partner with the mining industry in trying to be successful for the benefit of all Manitobans, we are also a partner with my having responsibility for other portfolios, Northern Affairs and aboriginal people. We are also a partner in a good-faith relationship with the people and the ecosystems of northern Manitoba.

I dare say those people and those ecosystems expect the following from honourable members, civil servants and my departments and those explorationists given the privilege of entering their traditional territories and communities. Those values, those characteristics, those attitudes which are becoming part of the new culture are humility not arrogance, respect not intolerance or discourtesy, honesty and good faith not anything less, genuine ongoing communication, not just notice and expect and no surprises of course are expected.

Maximum opportunities to participate in the jobs, training, education and wealth generation potential associated with mining exploration and development. Does this sound a little like universal religious principle, do unto others as you would have them do unto you? I think so. Is this a new culture to adjust to, given the historic relationship of Hydro and the northern people and mmmg companies and explorations and the northern people? You bet it is.

Those civil servants and all honourable members and all of those people involved with the northern communities who adjust first and best will be most successful for themselves and for the benefit of all Manitobans. Now I would like to tum, if I may, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to Northern Affairs and some of the things that are happening in the Northern Affairs area. I will not deal with the oil industry. That part of the energy industry are much with Hydro in my remarks except

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 571 before moving to Northern Affairs I would like to indicate that the petroleum industry last year had a very good year reflected in the revenue that they have contributed to the bottom line to the benefit of taxpayers in this province. They too are going to be challenged in the year to come, and we are ready for that because we have, like for mining, a competitive system and are addressing all of the same challenges there the way we are in mining. With respect to Manitoba Hydro, we just had through the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) tabled here today the third quarter report from Hydro, and it is apparent from that report that the record of sales last year growing 3.6 percent reaching over $1 .1 million as described in the budget, most of the gain being attributable to exports sales which rose 12.5 percent to a record level of$288.9 million, of this $273.2 million being exports to the United States.

But the third quarter this year indicates that already with $69 million to the bottom line to the profit picture, it looks like even with the warm weather helped by the cold weather today, which also helps winter roads-I see the honourable Minister of Government Services and responsible for Emergency Measures (Mr. Pitura) behind me-also of benefit to winter roads in the North and hopefully cold enough that maybe we can get those huge hydro transformers into the Island Lake area so that the hydro project and north central powerline can be completed this year. Those hopes are there.

But Hydro is in good shape and continues to serve the interests of its shareholders and stakeholders, all of the citizens of the province of Manitoba. Now moving to Northern Affairs, I am very pleased. I just came from, this morning, another one of the workshops, this time with my Northern Affairs staff as they change their capacities, develop their skills to fulfill a new vision and a new beginning for Northern Affairs communities, a beginning which is a steady movement and confident movement towards self reliance and independence.

For the past 24 years our department has been in the business of developing community councils and training employees to provide municipal services and work toward eventual incorporation. And today, right here in 1998, we are at a historic crossroads, and let me explain why. If we continue on our present path, five or ten years from now Northern Affairs communities will simply be as they are today, still dependent on the Department of Northern Affairs and taxpayers of Manitoba as a whole.

You know, when The Northern Affairs Act was created in 197 4 the belief was that these communities would be independent in five years. Well, 24 years later none of them are, and we have made a commitment since I have become minister of this particular department to change that, and this has been embraced by all of the members of the department with a great deal of enthusiasm and excitement.

If the department were to continue to be responsible for community matters, this is detrimental to their health, self-reliance, ability to grow, solve community problems, take responsibility for the development and performance of their employees and so on. Self-growth and self-reliance come from having control, decision making power, and responsibility for their own destiny. They come from experiencing learning and taking responsibility for their actions and for solving their problems themselves. We are giving the community back these freedoms and capacities.

Under the proposals we are developing, communities will be given the decision-making power and resources they need to be self-reliant. Eventually communities want to own their assets and will see a need to own their own land. This will make incorporation an effective tool, simply a tool for reaching self-reliance. Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you recall the Speech from the Throne on November 27, 1997, the government is now on

schedule to meet our commitment to help northern communities become self-reliant while providing an acceptable standard of living to their citizens. We are now working with communities on a plan, a plan developed by them to provide more autonomy and individual self-reliance in order to foster economic and environmental development through community action. As minister, I was very pleased in Friday's budget speech that the government announced creation of a Creating Sustainable Communities initiative and

572 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1998 funding of $500,000. This is what was needed to get this moving and moving faster than would have been possible without it. This funding will be earmarked for the process of transferring responsibility from municipal services from the province to northern communities. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will be working to ensure that the self-reliance initiative produces a sustainable service structure for northern communities in consultation, in meaningful consultation with the people of those communities.

I was also very pleased to have announced in that same budget an additional $1 million to tackle the infrastructure challenges of those communities, and there is quite a proud record of infrastructure development with limited resources in those communities, and it is superior on a comparison of other provinces in this country with their northern communities.

We are in the lead and, in fact, given the budget we have compared to the federal budget, we do incredibly well through the staff of our department and through the decisions made by the mayors and councils of the northern communities. * (1 520) The additional $1 million will allow a total of $3.6 million for capital infrastructure projects in northern communi ties, and this can lead to a water treatment plant at Cormorant, water and sewer services for Granville Lake, which the honourable member from Flin Flon will be very pleased with, because both the honourable member and myself have been to that community and we saw the need for it and we both came, I am sure, my colleague and I, my honourable friend and I, we both came to respect their motivation and their initiative to do something in cost-effective ways and creative ways to improve their community.

We are now in a position to help them fulfill their dream, get them started, and similarly a sewage lagoon at Dawson Bay is now a possibility. Our proposal is to phase in the necessary changes towards self-reliance. Through phasing in, the communi ties will be given the resources to hire and retain qualified employees. There will be resources for training staff. Adequate funding will be provided to meet unexpected expenditures or emergencies. There will be provision for vehicle replacement and enough support for maintenance to ensure that health and safety standards are met. For this exercise, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, funding will be fair and also sensitive to geographic and remoteness circumstances of individual communities. We will share responsibility for funding for municipal services. Accountability or performance standards will be developed and tied to the funding in line with earlier promises I made to mayors and councillors. The formulas to be used for maintenance will be simple and understandable. Of course, when the changes take place in community government, the department will also have to do things diff erently.

I am very pleased to say that the staff in the department is working very creatively as the day goes on and over the next three days in a workshop process. The kinds of things that will happen is the staff will become consultants, advising and enabling communities to solve problems, resolve disputes, manage staff and maintain service standards. They will no longer be assigned to work with a list of specific communities. Instead they will work with one or more communities as the need arises.

This work will also include assisting communities to form partnerships with other service providers between governments, within other departments and outside government, all to contribute to the development of healthy sustainable communities. This is a very exciting initiative. I was over at the workshop and with a facilitator there I joined in jumping up and down three times to show how excited we were in a model kind of facilitator-generated enthusiasm. I do not know, it made me relax. Maybe we should do it in the Legislature from time to time and especially in front of the students.

Maybe we could be a model for physical fitness in doing so, as well as show that we do have fun in our jobs. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do want to move to a very important issue. I think I have enough time to do a fair amount of justice to the issue of aboriginal peoples in

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 573 this province who in the categories which I have chosen to relate to aboriginal people include the categories of the Metis people and very proudly Metis people. The people who are the descendants in some cases and sometimes newly created Metis people, but some of them are the descendants of Louis Riel the leader of the Metis people in 1869-1870, leading this province into Confederation indeed as recognized by this House, a Father of Confederation. You know I have tried to emphasize, put myself in the shoes of the Metis people.

I will never be able to do that fully, but I certainly can feel and sense the pride that they have for their contribution to this province which is continuing, but they had a setback for many, many years. It is the kind of setback that happens in using this kind of analogy. If a population comes in from outside the province and suddenly becomes the majority and assumes the responsibility to be the leaders in the Legislature, the leaders in the town and city councils and the leaders of business, the leaders of the professions and the leaders of the arts-that is what happened to the Metis people.

They were in the majority and the leaders in those days, and then they became a minority group. It happened fast, and it did not happen with sensitivity. It did not happen with the depth of understanding that the visions of hindsight give us, but it did happen. It is helpful for us to understand that, and with their help I am increasingly gaining that understanding.

The other category of peoples for just the purpose of relationships, the First Nations people, the people represented by the AMCs and the MKOs of the province, the people who are clearly a responsibility by law, by Constitution, Indian people and Indian lands of the federal government. Now this does not preclude, of course, the involvement of the province. They are Manitoba citizens and proud Manitoba citizens, a people whose history, of course, goes back-artifacts will show in this area-as far back as perhaps 12,000 years.

But certainly, as the glacier receded, they increasingly spread throughout the province and played a huge role in developing a civilization, which we gain, through oral history, an increasing understanding, of which survived in this very challenging continent to become a thriving civilization in their diverse tribes and their diverse circumstances and ways of living and in ways that were respectful of the needs for their future survival to be environmental stewards.

The consequence of all of this, of course, is that our original people when they made contact with the immigrants from other lands interacted with them, for the most part, in positive ways, and they thrived. They thrived in many ways along with the immigrants. They helped each other. I heard a story just the other day of how the Icelanders benefited from learning how to ice fish and continue the harvest of the necessities of life, thanks to the teachings of aboriginal people, and that is the kind of story-1 think of the contribution, of course, that the Metis and the First Nations people made to the fur trade.

Then there are the disenfranchised and the Inuit people, the disenfranchised aboriginals who are sort of the lost souls, the people that the federal government does not want to be-does not consider them to be legally responsible for. They are the ones who have often found their way into the cities and form a large part of the population of the city of Winnipeg. It is sometimes estimated to be maybe 70,000 people and growing and becoming an increasing part of our workforce. So those are the kinds of categories, and we as a province have to pick up where the federal government leaves off.

We have the responsibility for all of those peoples and, I might say, in increasing millions of dollars, because the federal government has chosen in their partnering relationship with the aboriginal peoples not to accept the treaty responsibilities to the degree that we and my aboriginal brothers and sisters believe is appropriate. So that is a challenge we have as a province, and we are working in a good-faith partnership with any aboriginal peoples, First Nation peoples, who are party to a treaty to discuss, negotiate, relate with the federal government in this respect. *

(1530) The Health minister and I have just, for example, recently together made a communication with the federal Minister of Health Alan Rock and Jane Stewart, the minister of northern and native affairs federally. The federal minister, Jane Stewart, is an advocate within that government for First Nations people, just as

574 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10 , 19 98 that is a role, a facilitator-advocate, that I see that I have within our government on behalf of the three categories of aboriginal people whom I have described. We are making progress. We have a good working relationship and issues are being discussed that have never been discussed before. Now I wanted to talk about several strategies.

We have an urban aboriginal strategy, which is emerging through a task force, which emerged out of our Round Table on the Environment and the Economy, and that particular strategy has been through the what-you-told us process and is moving towards an action plan. That is going to have some exciting results. Treaty land entitlement and Northern Flood Agreement, Mr. Deputy Speaker, huge transfers of land and dollars to the First Nations people in our province. The magnitude of this is measured in terms of land transfers and dollars.

In terms of the treaty land entitlement, we will have up to 1,1 00,000 acres, Crown land being almost 986,000 acres and 11 5,000 acres approximately to be purchased by bands with funds provided by the Government of Canada, funds totalling $76 million. This process, now in the land selection stage and implementation stage, is going to be a major contribution to the development, the socioeconomic development of the First Nations people in this province and for the benefit of all Manitobans.

The Northern Flood Agreements involve a huge transfer again, 17 8,000 acres in total so far, to the four bands that have decided-and I think very correctly-to resolve the injustices of the past perpetrated on them by Hydro, and they have accepted compensation, monies that will go to development and monies that will be put in trust funds. The minimum that goes in trust funds has to be $12 5 million. These have to be used for the benefit of those communities. So $2 15 million is transferred for four of those settlements and 17 8,000 acres of land.

Cross Lake has not yet concluded its settlement and has wanted to postpone negotiations at this time. But, you know, Cross Lake is sitting on a major mining opportunity, an industrial minerals opportunity, titanium, and they are a joint venture partner with Gossan Resources in that respect.

So that is an excellent learning experience, and we are working on a regular basis with that community in spite of their unwillingness at this time to accept the Northern Flood Agreement settlement, with a view to contributing to their maximized development and capacity to support their own people and contribute to the responsible development of this province, applying the aboriginal values and traditions, which we can learn a great deal from. In terms of programs, we hear far too often from the other side a suggestion of things that are no longer done.

We are going about supporting investing in the future of our aboriginal people because we have a long term strategy, and that is how we look at it. But we are going about it in different ways than has been done in the past. What we are doing is we are maximizing the cost-shared programs, and we have a different philosophy with respect to grants funding. We have changed from core funding to a project-based approach to focus on building capacity-some people say social capital in the aboriginal community-and to have a community-based approach for funding. The projects have to be owned by the community.

They have to be accepted, and they have to be, for the most part, run by the community. We encourage all departments of government and all honourable members of this House to recognize that and be guided by this policy direction, which is the one which has been asked for by our aboriginal people. We have worked with the aboriginal partners to develop ambitious work plans in the tripartite processes and have accomplished some important new initiatives in this fiscal year. We have expectations for even greater accomplishments in '98-99 because we have support again through our budget for these initiatives.

In 19 97-98, the urban aboriginal strategy, I have mentioned, will emerge, and the priorities flowing from this will be taken up in the tripartite process with the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg and others. I wanted to mention Partners for Careers. Partners for Careers is a $200-million project. Human Resources Development Canada is involved, and I want to report that that investment has been good; 315 placements have been made as of March 10 , 19 98. It exceeds already the target of 300 per year with three weeks to go in '97-98.

March 10, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 575 Other kinds of investments, as I wrap up, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have invested in different ways in things like the Indian and Metis Friendship Centre. We contributed $33,000 recently in celebration of their 40th anniversary. We contributed to the racism conference. We provide $55,000 to SEED Winnipeg; $22,000 to innovative child protection and justice restorative programs through A WASSIS. We are supporting the urban aboriginal strategy. We are supporting some housing programs. The Indigenous Games, hopefully we will have them in Manitoba in 2002.

We are working in partnership with all the aboriginals to make that happen, and we are supporting that. I would like to conclude by saying I respect the attention that this has been paid, and I look forward to working with all colleagues in advancing the interests of Manitobans through the departments for which I have the responsibility. Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): I am going to talk about just two elements that are of deep concern to my constituents and also in my role as the Urban Affairs critic.

The first one is a sort of a continuation of the interchange that I had this afternoon in Question Period with both the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Health over the issue of a personal care home project in my constituency, the Betel Home. I understand from the minister today that the Betel Home is not going to go ahead, that the hundred beds that were going to be in place will be allocated elsewhere, if the government is to be believed in its comments about personal care homes.

We know from bitter experience how hard it is at times for Manitobans to really put their trust or their faith in the veracity of what is said, most particularly in health care, by this current government, which is this current government, the previous government, and the previous government to that. In June of 1994, the current Minister of Finance and I attended the opening, the groundbreaking ceremony of this Betel personal care home, with a great deal of fanfare, and legitimately so. It was going to be a very state-of-the-art, locally supported, community-based personal care home.

Land had been purchased, architects had been hired, drawings had been rendered, work had been done with the Ministry of Health planners and the technical people in the Ministry of Health. All was a go, and on a lovely spring day we attended the groundbreaking ceremony of this personal care home. That was almost four years ago. *

(1540) Then in December of 1994, oh, silly me, how naive I was, when I rose on December 19, 1994, to ask the Minister of Health what the status was of the Betel personal care home, it was six months and not a shovelfull of dirt had been taken from the site on Sargent and Erin. This was terrible. This was terrible. Oh, boy, I wish those were the days. Those were the good old days when it was just a six-month delay. So I asked the then Minister of Health what the delay was, why the government, who had been so pleased to participate in the groundbreaking ceremony just six months previous, was not following through.

The minister said, and I quote: I would be happy to look into the present status of the situation for the honourable member and report to her, but there is no question but that this project will be going ahead. December 19, 1994 ---eurrent Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik), pay attention to this-your predecessor said this project will be going ahead, and then the Minister of Health says that I am sad to see the honourable members opposite who clearly support this sort of thing trying to make some mileage out of it by raising it in a negative sort of a way.

What we were saying was it has been six months, show us the construction. Here the then Minister of Health chastises me for not- An Honourable Member: I did not chastise. Ms. Barrett: The then Minister of Health chastises me for not having a positive view of the situation. Again quoting the then Minister of Health, we have a very popular and needed development going on here. The honourable Minister of Finance Mr. Stefanson and members of the Scandinavian community in Manitoba, I think, will be very pleased to see that development.

All well and good, so the members of the community and I take comfort from those words, oh, naive people

576 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1998 that we were, and we assumed that things were going ahead, slowly but they were going ahead. There were some concerns with a kitchen, whether it was going to be a local kitchen or a central kitchen. The Betel group was very unhappy with the government saying you have to have a central kitchen and now we know why. They were saying you have to have a central kitchen, because there is going to be a central kitchen headquartered somewhere in Ontario no doubt for all of the food that is going to come in for the health care system in the province of Manitoba.

But naive people that we were then, we did not realize that was going to happen. We kept hoping and praying and planning. In Febru ary of 1995, eig ht or nine months after the groundbreaking ceremony, the then Min ister of Health did follow up on my question of December 19, 1994, and did provide me with a letter on the then current status of the Betel Personal Care Home for which I give him credit. He said I can assure you that this project has continued to proceed well through the normal review process. I am pleased to inform you this project is almost ready to go to construction.

The architects are telling staff of Manitoba Health that the project can be advertised for open public tender in February. That is Fe bruary 1995. I look forward to construction of this much-needed project early in 1995. Well, this is excellent news for the community that had spent years and millio ns of dollars in architects' fees, in construction costs, preconstruction costs I must say, in buying the land, in doing everything in good faith to deal with this project coming to fruition. The government had said it is a good project. The government had said we are ready to go.

The government had said you have done everything you need to do. Let us go. What happened after Fe bruary 1, 1995, Mr. Deputy Speaker? The provincial election campaign happened, that is what. What happened after the provincial ele ction campaign? Oh, oh. All of a sudden the government, which is re-elected after their promises to save the Jets and that they would not sell the telephone system, and that they were going to have $600 million in new capital construction in the health care system, what happens after the election in 1995? Well, the federal government has cut our transfer payments.

Well, things are not going so well. Well, we have a balanced budget legislation. We cannot do this. We cannot do that. Full stop to all capital construction proje cts. Every single capital construction project in the province of Manitoba was stopped. What is the im pact of that? Well, members on this side have been telling the government what has been the impact of those cuts. My colleague, the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) acknowledges that I should be perhaps narrower in my definition of which construction projects were put a hold on. It was the health construction projects.

Construction projects for the McPhillips Street Station and the Regent Street casinos went ahead full-bore, $55 milli on more. No problem with putting parrots and tinned bands and canned music in the casinos. Oh, that is fine, we are not going to put a stop on that. We are going to put a stop to $600 million of capital construction for health care projects though. We do not care if people have to lie in gurneys for weeks at a time in emergency rooms. That does not bother us. Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Speaker, in the Chair Well, to end this sad saga, Mr. Acting Speaker, it now turns out-oh, back up just a bit.

After the election in 1995 when they put a hold on it, then I believe it was last year the government said, well, fine, we will think about putting in place some capital projects for health care, but guess w·here it is going to have to happen? The communities are going to have to put up 20 percent of the costs in order tor these projects to go ahead. The government's justification for this was, well, then the communities will not ask for more than they need if they have to have an extra financial cost in here. This is our health care system we are talking about.

In my particular situation, the situation in my constituency, the Betel Home, which is not unique, I might add, but it is the one I know most about, the organization did everything that was asked of it. It spent millions of dollars. It raised all that money from its own resources. The provincial government then comes back and says, we are not going to build it and then we only will build it if you put up 20 percent of the costs. This is a community that does not have unlim ited resources, unlike the virtually unlimit ed resources of the provincial government.

Did the provincial government ask private companies, like the

March 10 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 577 VL T -the people who construct the VL T machines? Did they say in order for your machines to go into our casinos, our gambling dens, you are going to have to put 20 percent up? No. No, they did not. They only asked the people whose health-care system is crumbling around us to put up 20 percent. Talk about privatization from the back door. This is unconscionable. So obviously what has happened is that the people who were ready to go in 19 94 for the personal care home have now said, we cannot do it.

We need the personal care home beds, but we cannot afford this money. We cannot afford the extra burden that has been placed on us by a government that has a fiscal stabiliz ation fund in excess of half a billion dollars, a� least. Although with the shell game of this Min ister of Finance we do not know what is in there, we know it is a lot of money.

Well, the government in general, and the Min ister of Health in particular, has come under an increasing amount of pressure from the community throughout Manitoba because of the horror stories day after day, week after week, of which the Betel Personal Care Home is only one. What does the Minister of Health do? Well, No. 1, he, almost unheard of in modern Manitoba history except for the actions of the Premier, the Minister of Health, does not appear for weeks. He lets his assistant deputy ministers take the can, take the heat, talk to the media. The minister is nowhere to be found.

Whether the minister is in the province or out of the province is not the question here. The question is the minister is responsible for the expenditures of those monies or the nonexpenditure of those monies, and what does he do? He sends his assistant deputy ministers to deal with the rising concerns expressed by the people of Manitoba. *( 1 550) Finally, the media catch up with the Min ister of Health, and here I would just like to quote a couple of things that the Minister of Health stated in an

article in the Winnipeg Sun, Saturday, February 21. An Honourable Member: Do not always believe the newspaper. They do not always get it right. Ms. Barrett: In talking about opening up the 83 hospital beds, just a few quotes, and they are all in quotes, Minister of Health, and I would like to suggest to the Min ister of Health if these quotes are not accurate, he should check with Tom Brodbeck, the legis lative reporter who wrote this article. I have not seen a retraction from Mr. Brodbeck of the Winnipeg Sun, so I am assuming that these are accurate assumptions.

An Honourable Member: Do not assume, that makes a something out of you and me. Ms. Barrett: Well, it certainly does out of you, sir. He says: if you do not have the staff to look after the beds, does it matter if you can find the 83 beds or not, said an agitated Praznik. I mean, get realistic here, for God's sake. That is exactly what the people of Manitoba are getting. They are getting realistic. The Minister of Health is getting thin-skinned. Give me a break, he says, you know, I am just tired of this crap. The Minister of Health who has been hiding for months is tired of this crap.

This crap is the fact that the health care system in the province of Manitoba is crumbl ing, and it is not crumbling because we live in a third-world country, although our brothers and sisters in northern Manitoba in general and particularly on the reserves do, but the province of Manitoba is awash in money, awash in money. What are they doing with it? Well, they are certainly not spending it on the health care system. So let us not talk-the Minister of Health has a fine row to hoe when he says, let us not talk about this crap. This is not crap.

It is the future of the health care system in the province of Manitoba. The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): Order, please. The honourable member for Emerson, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Acting Speaker, I am wondering whether it would be in order if I would ask the honourable member to repeat what she just did when she indi cated that there was an area in this province that was awash with money, and I would like

578 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA March I 0, 1998 her to explain that to the people in that area that she was referring to. First of all, I would like to know which area she was referring to. The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): The honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) does not have a point of order. *** The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): The honourable member for Wellin gton (Ms. Barrett), to continue with your comments. Ms. Barrett: The Min ister of Health (Mr. Praznik) then goes on to say, and he is talking here about the hospitals in the province of Manitoba or in the city of

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 14.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	be0d32ac797ddbc9f1e3706fe6fe75a9fb06e3d3

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