FOR REFEPENCE ONLY NOT TO BE CIRCULATED Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Friday, February 23, 1973 SPEAKER, THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 12

February: l 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.~. Mro Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAFFR· Order, please! Tape 29B PK 1 I would like to welcome to the galleries today nine Grad! IX students from Morris Academy of Mount Pearl and their teacher, }-l'r. Harv,•y Hodder, and nine Grade tX students from Peacock Academy of Happy Vallev with their teacher, Mr. Fupert Baker. Both groups of students are ,~xchange students, the Happey Valley students with the Porris Academy i:.cudents and vice versa.

I especially welcome you,on hehalf of all the honourahle members here today, and indeed any other visitors :in the p.-alleries and ··rust that your visit here is most interesting, The l··onourable memher for St. Mary's HON. _f'..:_R,_. ~JTENFFIHF.R • (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): ~r. Speaker. I received a brief from the Denominational Educational Committees to the Provincial Government on the afternoon of Friday, Fe.hruary 16, a week age today.

The Denominational Educational Committees are requesting a co~~itment on the part of government,to cover capital construction requir~ments from the period 1973 to 1qan,of Sl32 million. That is includjng the cost of furnishings and the escalation of construction costs rver that period. They are further requesting that the annual grant for sr~ool construction which was set at $8 million in 1971 to be increa~P.d this fiscal year to $12 million.

That the Provincial Government erdeavour to increase DREE participation in school construction and that the Provincial Government develop a system of long term financing for school construction purposes. When I received the brief on behalf of the government lnst Friday afternoon,! told the ~entlemen present that having just received their brief it would be impossible to comment intelligently upon it then and I further suggested that this would be the first 904

February 23, 1973, Tape 299, Page 1 - apb topic on the agenda for a meeting between the Denominational Education Committees and me,early in March. This as I recall was unanimously agreed upon. Since the brief has been made public, I have been requested by a number of the media to comment upon it. I think it would have been a discourtesy to the House when it is in session to do thia, therefore,. I have to decided to make this statement.

(1) This goverrnnent do not make decisions involving expenditure or requests for expenditure over a seven year period totalling $132 million on capital account within a ~eek.

(2) The brief will be the topic of discussion between me and the Denominational Education Committees at a meeting early in March.

(3) The government is giving study and consideration to the brief.

(4) The position of the government regarding DREE participation in school construction is well known and was stated most recently by me.last Saturday at the opening ceremonies of McDonald Drive School. The government welcomes the participation of the Federal Government in this important area and hopes that this federal-provincial partnership will continue in the future.

The government has had negotiations in this area for an amendment to the second DR.EE agreement and is preparing its material for future negotiations with the f'edera~ govermnent for inclusion in a third agreement. {5) The government is aware of the problems facing the school boards in the area of financing school construction coats. During the next fiscal year the government will be in a position to make known its plans for the long-term financing of school construction. I have copiea here for the opposition and for the press~ PETITIONS: MR.

J.MORGAN: Mr~ Speaker, I beg leave of this House to present a petition from the residents of the Communities Winter Brook, Jamestown Portland and Brooklyn.in my District of Bonavista South, a total of 560 residents 1 voters of the area, asking that the road leading from Winter 905

February 23, 1073 1 Tnne 299. Page 2 -~ anh Brook throu;1h the Cof'mlunity of Jamestown, through Portland and Trooldvn on to Lethhr-!dge be upgraded and paved. I fully smmort this petition. }'r. Speaker. for tw, reasons: {

l) that all the school children in these communities mcntione are presentlv heinp transported daily throur:h to Lethlirid;!etto the Lethhridp:c Element.arv and H:ip-h Schools, and because the rend :in n1aces is very dangerous;desnite the fnct that this summer pnst, the last coni truction se.nson, this govern!l'ent did comr,lc,te some unp-radinr: on this ro. d.,thf're arc sti11 sone danverous sections to be unrraded and remr,' ed.

February 23, 1973 Tape 300 JH - 1 The second reason I support the petition is the fact that these people in these communities are detemined to remain there despite the fact that the previous administration did point ou~ on a number of occasions that these communities could be relocated. They are designated as sending cormnunities but the people are determined to stay there~ Mr. Speaker, and I think that this government will endeavour to develop these co:mnunities and upgrade and pave their roads as soon as funds become available. So therefore I move this petition be tabled in this hon.

House and passed along to the department to· which it relates. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented on behalf of over 500 residents of Jamestown, Portland, Brookland and Winter Brook in the District of Bonavista South~ I run rather pleased to hear that these people want to remain in their communities, Mr. Speaker~ I think it was only yesterday that we heard the acting Premier say that, maybe it was not yesterday but in this sitting the hon. acting Premier made a statement that people who want to remain in their comm.unity should be provided with services.

I agree with this and it is a reasonable request, Sir. I do not know if they were on the list~that the former Minister of CGmmunity and Social Development brought in the House last yeartto get the axe or not. We could not get the list so maybe the hon. member for Bonavia.ta South who presented the petition knows whether or not these communities were on the list. But I support the petition, Sir, and if the hon.

Minister of Education does not get all the windfall from Ottawa for the educational programme he just outlined there,I hope that the Minister of Finance will be able to allow a few dollars to grant this reasonable request to the residents of Bonavista South* MR~ ROWE(F~B$): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf 907

February 21, 1973 Tape 1no of the citi zcns of St. Barbe North. The petition is signed by approximntr,.1v 1,000 individuals fror. fifteen coTTTT111mities in St Barbe North and the pr aver of the netition re;1ds as fol lows: (nnd it ls ;, little lengthy. Sir.) "Whcre;is our voung people will contimw ::o need to btJi1r1 horr-es and wherens in many cases the- existinr rc\"1 \atitms repardinp mad zoninr Prohibit!'l thi:> buildinr of such ½mnes witi in one quarter of n mile of the' existinp road ;md

whereas the ex:ist.irn repulatinns r,ore 1nPicnilv shnnld be desiJ?nf'd to protect prnno 11 roads rather thrin those nlrendv existinrr ;rnr 1 wiwre;1s thr nrop1 are not mnde awnn.• nf 0nv nronosed roads in the area nnrl vhcrr the said rerrul;Jtions tin not respet't the plL,ht of the indivtduaJs it is completelv lac.kin/'.!" of human factor and

whereas tbe rcpulatinn;:; 1re strictly enforce, 1 in one corrmnnitv ;md not in adincent con.Muff:! les 903

February 23, 1973 Tape no~ 301 Page l - mrw

WHEREAS the time involved in processing such permits often extends into periods of years, and

WHEREAS some people are given permission to build without permits, while others are sued for building without permits, and

WHEREAS young families are often required to live with relatives for extended periods of time and under crowded conditions, and

WHEREAS land to develop is of no scarity in the area of St~ Barbe Northj! and

WHEREAS the cost of land surveys are extremely high, and WERE..4.S young people and indeed others can ill-afford such extra costs in addition to the high cost of constructing a home, we the undersigned do urgently implore the government to take immediate steps to amend the existing regulations: (a} whereby the people of this district will be permitted to construct homes when they so desire; (

b) to protect zoning of proposed roads and that such zones be clearly marked; {

c) so that if land must be surveyed the coat of surveying be the responsibility of the party requesting this survey in the first place; (

d) so that permits to build be issued within one month of the date of request; and (

e) so that those already seeking permits be issued permits immediately or abolish these existing regulations regarding road zoning, crown lands. leases, altogether and permanently. Otherwise, we the undersigned, will take it upon ourselves to give full support morally and otherwise to those who now and in the future deserve to build homes with or without permits. Now, Sir, this petition obviously refers to the Urban and Rural Planning Act, the protective road regulations and the regulations of the Development Control Division of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Rousing. I might point out, Sir, that there is only one single 909

February 23, 1973 Tape no. 301 Page 2 fieldman of the Development Control Division on the West Coast, and he has to serve from Port aux Basques to St. Anthony to Baie Verte~ This is an absolutely impossible job for one man to do. There is only one office there in Corner Brook. There is very little co-ordination between the Clean,Air, Water ard Soil Authority to the various municipalities, the Crown Lands Division, the Department of Highways, uepartment of Health, the otPer departments and divisions and this is causing extreme deJay.

Sir, I sympathize deeply with the people of St. i arbe North in this regard, although I do see the need for reg1 lations. But the people do suffer unduly as far as trying to built homes is concerned and I give the petition my full support and I ,sk that it be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may say a word or two n 910

February 23, 1973 Tape 302 IB~l support of the petitions presented by the honourable gentleman from St. Barbe North. Excuse me, I hnve been talking too much. I am back in the shape thouRh to go on again. The Minister of Finance will be glad to hear i't. It all depends on which way you look at it, Mr. Speaker~ The prayer of the petition was well stated by the member from St. Barbe North~ It was well stated in the petition itself, a copy of which was sent to me~ I think it is a reasonable request in the circumstances~ Sir.

All of us are intensely sympathetic and intensely aware of the need to have some form of regulation of development of both urban and rural areas in the province. One of the problems that have been inherited in Newfoundland,going back four hundred and fifty years or however long people have been living here, is ribbon development~ It is the sort of thing that causes the officals in the Department of Municipal Affairs to grow old before their time. Surely, anything we can do to prevent this sort of development in the future should be done.

We have good legislation and I think we have set up1 over the years, in this province, fairly good machinery to administer this legislation. The difficulty, Mr. Speaker, and I think this i.s the point the petitioners touch upon, is that toooften all that we do in the legislation and in the administration is say uno11 • The legislation is too often drawn in a vacuum. It is too often administered in a vacuum. It is too often operated by people who are not on the spot and who do not realize the problems~ There is a world of difference in sitting at a desk at Confederation Building, Mr.

Speaker, and agreeing that we should not have ribbon developrnent,and studies and plans a~d priorities can be piled on one another to prove that, and being down in Eddy's Cove or Bear Cove or somewhere in the St. Barbe North and trying to build a house and seeing a bit of land - and as far as you can see it is a perfectly good piece of land- and then being told frustratingly that you can wait eighteen months to get a permit to build~ There is no guarantee that you will get it 911

February 23 1973 Tape 302 n-2 then. So, somewhere between the goorl tntentions and the ROOd n nns and the gonr 1 thoughts, somewhere between there anrl the nan on t! e road tf you wish. or the man living i.n St. Rarhe North - and it i.s ei ually true in White Ray North or J know of manv caseB in F~rrvland, n lover this nrovince - somewhere in between the whole svstem hreaks dm n. The petition speakn very much to that voint~ Sir. an, I do hope it will be taken in to account by the minister. I do hope we wiJl see some action. Toooften petitions are received, Hr.

Speaker, and thev disannear into a w~rnss downstairs somevhere n thi~ building and that is the last that is ever heard of them. I th nk this one is too imnortant t0 have that hmrnen to it and I do hone soi·e actfon results. }fR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? REPORTS OF STAifDPW NlD SF'.LECT C0MHITTEES:

February 23, 1973 Tape No. 303 NM - l HON. EDWARD MAYNARD, MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the report of the Fann Development Loan Board for the financial year ending March 31, 1972. H01L DR~ AUGUSTUS T. ROWE, MINISTER OF HEALTH: Mr. Speaker~ I table for the benefit of the House, the Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance amendment number (3) regulations of September 1972 and in addition I table the Department of Heath Licencing Of Embalmers Regulations For 1972. NOTICE OF QUESTIONS MID ASNWERS TO DUESTIONS: RON. ILR.V. EARL.!h,_,,MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND SERVICES; ¾ir.

Speaker, I have the answer to question number (21) asked by the honourable member for Fogo on yesterday's Order Paper. It is in a number of parts, the first part of which is: On what date do the government call tenders for the provision of servicing and maintenance to government aircraft? The answer is, tenders were called on November 14, 1972. Second question; on what date did tenders close for the provisions of said services? Tenders closed on December 27, 1972 but were extended to January 26, 1973 at the request of local operators.

Question number three was1what firms or persons tendered for the provision of these services, showing in each case the name of the person, persons or firm; the location of their servicin~ facilities, the amount of the tender submitted~ what terms and conditions form a basis for the submission of the tender, if other than the terms and conditions described in the calling of the tender? The answers are (

a) the following firms tendered Air Newfoundland Limited, St. John NADAIR Limited, St. John's; Atlantic Avaiation of Newfoundland Limited, St. John's; Avalon Aviation Limited 1of Montreal; and Eastern Aviation 913

February 23, 1973 Tape 304 PK - 1 Cbntractors Gander. These tenders were submitted with a number of optional proposals which are currently under analysis~ Question (4) was the contract for the provision of these services awarded to the person or persons or firm which submitted the lowest tender? And if not, vhy not? And to whom was it awarded? W11at vas the value of the contract price? No contract will be issued until an analysis of the proposal is complete and that is in the process .• At the present time an analysis is being conducted. Mr.

Speaker with the permission of the House,I would like to correct the answer which I gave in committee last night to the honourable member for Bell Island in connection with the department's snow clearing operations.

The honourable member,in giving us the benefit of his thoughts on how to improve the services of that department,asked the question as to whether or not an accurate check was kept on the operators of snow clearing vehicles as to when they went on the job and when they crune off the job?, Not knowing at that time fully the answer.I said there were spot checks carried on~ But I have ascertained since then that actually an accurate record is kept in every instance,in every part of the country, that the operators are checked out and checked in and a record of the time spend on each job under all conditions is kept at all times.

There are a number of questions on today's Order Paper asked by the honourable'me.mber for Fogo. These will be answered in due course but might I saypin reading these questions I would appreciate if the honourable me:mber would restrict his questions to what I might term as essential information because they are in great detail and it would mean an unmericful and unnecessary amount of work for a very small staff and there will be some delay in getting these answers. MR. ROBERTS: On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, the honourable gentleman began by answering a question and launched into a discourse, Is the honourable gentleman saying that ~e shall not ask questions,in his view, or is he merely saying that it will take a while to answer them? 914

February 23, 1973 Tape 304 PK - 2 HR, E..qJtLE: Ask sensible questions - MR~ ROBERTS: ML Speaker, the honourable gentleman would do us the courtesy of being decent, which we are prepared to do to him, is he saying that we shall not,ask questions? NR. EARLE: Ask all the questions you like but make sure they are sensible ones which can be answered. MR. ROBERTS: Well fine 1 we shalL Thank you, Hr~ Speaker, we shall ask the questions. we will let the honourable gentleman answer them, MR. NE.ARY: Mr~ Speaker, our globe trotting Premier was off to the delights of Montreal again yesterday afternoon.

I would like to ask the honourable ftcting Premier. if the government chartered a jet to send the Premier and his party to Montraid? If not, will the Acting Premier tell us whose jet the Premier went to Montreal in? How many are in the party? And the names of those who were accompanying the Premier? HR. SPEAKER: The honourable the minister said he would take it as notice. HR. F. B. ROWE: Mr~ Speaker, I was going to address a question to the honourable the Premier but in his absence I would like to address it to the honourable Minister of Highways.

Would the honourable minister, I think it is this serious now, declare a state of e.-nergency on the Great Northern Peninsula Highway which is presently completely blocked with sno~? Is there any possibility of getting highways equipment moved from the eastern

section of the province.particularly 915

February 23, 1973 Tape No. 305 NM - 1 on the Avalon Peninsula,and could he instruct his officials in the Department of Highways to hire and use and utilize all of the existing private snow-cleating equipment, particularly in the District of St. Barbe North. Sir, I mention this because there is a vehicle load of patients from the St. Anthony Hospital now stuck somehwere on the highway north of Eddies Cove, I understand there was a man on the road for some eighty hours last week. The students are losing a great number of days from school and the school buses are travelling under extremely hazardous conditions.

Last weekend the power plant in Flowers Cover,which serves most of the commun.ities in the district,almost had to close do-..m because of the fuel truck not being able to reach. MR. CROSBIE: What is the question. MRo SPEAKER: I realize the importance of the question the honourable member is asking, but I feel that he has asked the question~ that the honourable the Minister of Highways realizes this. MR. F. ROWE: Mr~ Speaker, in answer to the honourable Minister of Finance, I was merely trying to point otit the seriousness of the situation on the Great Northern Peninsula.

He can drive home this afternoon, most of these people cannot. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker~ I know or did know a few days ago the condition of the highways on the Great Northern Peninsula and I gave a full and very comprehensive report to the honourable member for White Bay North. MR. ROBERTS: No, no, that was affer that~ DR. FARRELL: No, I am sorry, I gave him a personal, not in the House, I gave him a personal and very comprehensive report on conditions and what we were doing to allieviate the conditions at that time. AN HON. MEMB!lR: St. Barbe.North. DR. FARRELL: I am sorry, St.

Barbe North, that is where the confusion 916

February 23, 1973 Tape No. 305 NM - 2 DR. FARRELL: was, I am sorry, the honourable the Leader of the Opposition. At this moment in time, as I said, I will have to refer back to fffY department and obtain the present conditions of information concerning present conditions before I can give him an answer on this question. I will do so as soon as possible. MR. F~ ROWE: The minister, Mr. Speaker, did indeed give me a report up to that point but the state of emergency as exists now I am worried about. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to address a question to the honourable Minister of Education~ Will the honourable Minister of Education make a committment to this honourable House that he will have an official of his department conduct an immediate survey of all school boards in this province, in order to access the condition and difficulties being experienced with the operation of school buses in the province at the present time? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I shall have to take that as notice of question. MR. F. ROWE: I would like to address another question to the honourable Minister of Education.

Can the honourable minister assure this Hduse and the people of Newfoundland that the $24 million windfall from the Federal Liberal Government will be used to defer all property, poll and ~chool taxes in this province and possibly eliminate the need for school tax authorities altogether? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. speaker, I believe that the question is out of order, it anticipates the budget and the allocation of funds by the government, anticipates the Budget-Speech and the estimates. MR. SPEAKER: I have to rule,as the honourable minister-says, it is in anticipation~ It is out of order~ MR. F.

ROWF.: I would like to ask a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, is my understanding correct that this money from the federal government is supposed to be earmarked for education alone? 917

February 23, 1973 MR. CROSBIE: No, it is not. MR. F, ROWE: It is not. Tape No. 305 NM - 3 MR. CROSBIE: This money is not earmarked for anything. It is part of the tax equalization payments this province will receive next year. It is not earmarked in any way for any particular purpose and will be dealt with in all seriousness after full consideration by the government and when the Budget Speech is brought down~ we will see 918

February 23, 1973, Tape 306, Page 1 - apb where the money is spent. It is not al.located as anything. ORDERS OF THE DAY: HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable the Minister of Fisheries~ Would the honourable minister inform the House if he has received any representation from the fishermen in the Bay de Verde Area about the cancellation of their breakwater which is a federal project? If he has received any representation, what has he done about it7 HON. R.L .CHEESfilt<\N (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Could I ask if the honourable member is referring to Old Perlican? HR.

HEARY: (Inaudible) HR. Cl!EESEHAN: I just wanted to clarify where it was$ There had been earlier representation made in connection with the construction of a slipway in Old Perlican and at that time we wrote back and informed them that nothing could be done at the moment by way of a decision, pending information from the federal government regarding their proposed work for this season. This was the information that we gave them and said we would be happy to proceed with our plans when we knew of the other plans.

The only other information I have is that which the honourable oember 'WCmld have 1 which is what I heard yesterday publicly, that that had been the request for a breakwater at Old Perlican which had been now turn~rl down by the federal govtrnment. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, now that the honourable minister knows that it was turned down by Ottawa, will the province now proceed with building a breakwater at Old Perlican? . HR. CHEESEHAN: In answer to the question~ Hr. Speaker, the province is only involved in shore facilities as opposed to harbour improvements and wharves of that construction and nature.

The plan for that area at the moment is to build a slipway and not to get into any other area. It is in slings because we do not know where the breakwater is going to be built or if it is going to be built. 919

February 23, 1973, Tape 306, Page 2 -- apb HON. DR.T.C.FARRELL (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION ANJl COMMUNICATIONS: In answer to a question from the honourable member for Fogo yesterday concerning air subsidization to the Areas of Fogo, St. Brendan's, Change Islands;nDoes it apply to carriage of passengers from Chanp:e Islands,I believe,to the TvilHngate Hospital?'" The answer is no, that a1 this present tiT"e this is a scheduled flight from fiander to the thrn! points mentioned. It does not apply to thnt particular area. !AR. WINSOP: To the honourable minister n supp1enentary.

Hi] 1 the honourable minister give some consideration to the thought of ubsid:izinr, those people - hospital patients or neoplc goinp to and from .,f 11 in!"[lte to see a doctor? DR. FARREL_L_: There is an air amlmlance service available to eside.nts of these areas.I would like to Jnform the honourable member, hut certainly, in the next year we will be lookinp: at the entire matter of air subsidization for the entire province and we will be lookinp. i•1 all these areas which may be concerned. On motion that the House resolve itself into Commictee of the Whole on Supplementary Supply, Mr. Speal:er left the Chair.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRHAN: Order! Shall Head YV, Economic DevelomT!ent c.1rry? !AR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, one of the items: listed under Econo'.'liC Development is the Hawkes Bay sawmill. I l?nuld like to ask the honourable minister if he could inform the committee why it took over thirteen months I think it was, to finalize an agreement with the owners of that mill when the previous administration had already armroved the amount of the loan, had pretty well worked out the terms of the agreement and as far as I can understand, there is not all that much difference in thr present agreement - 920

February 23, 1973 Tape 307 why it took a year to finalize the nrreement, Hr. Chairman, and in the meantime the men, the potential emplove.es in that area lost over a years wages. While the minister is on his feet ! would like for him to tell us, because I understand that a part of the denl for openinr the Hawkes Bay mill is that the saw nill in Stephenville would nlsn either be opened or moved to a ne~ location, I wonder if the ninister could elaborate on these two paints. JH - 1 MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman. the hon. µ;entlcman is p:ivtne. quite incorrect information to the House because there was no agreement nearly worh::r1 out with Bowaters nnrl Lundrigan or Newfoundland Forest Products Um:i ted when these hon. gentlemen left office. There was nothing done nt all but an order in council passed, as I remember, _iust leading up to the election campaign of October which said that the government would be prepared to guarantee a loan of $2 million for Newfoundland Forest Products Limited subject to proper terms and conditions.

There were no terms or crnditions ever worked out with Rovaters or Lundrigans and the reason why the negotiations took a long time was that this government were not going to assist this enterprise unless the tenns and conditions were in the best interest of this province. But the only reason why we did it at all; as hon. gentlemen will see when this agreement is tabled, and· there will be

an act here with the agreement attached as an appendix put before the House asking for approval, was because we are very conscious of the fact that this would provide 200 or possibly more jobs in the Hawkes Bay Area, that it befng,of course a resource of this province and thus we should make every effort to try and develop or keep this saw mill going if at all possible~ That is why an agreement was entered into. The negotiations took so long because we were determined to see that the money this governnent advanced was well protected. We were not prepared to advance $2 million to Newfoundland Forest Products so 921

February 21. 1973 Tape 307 that they could turn nround and nav with it the debts nwe<l to ,1r guaranteed hv the tuo princinal owners of Newfoundland Forest t1 roduct,:;~ which were Bowaters and Lundrigans. That is one of the reas,,ns whv the arreen:ent took so lonp: to work out. The arreement ns worYcd out provides for an advance of $1,750,000,which was advanced. I think it was in .January.

They have the ri?ht if they call upon us. if they say they wish the other S250,000,they can ask us for it and we will advance it, The Sl,750,000 is r;uaranteed with respect to $400.000, in other uords Bown.ters and Lundri;u:ms havf' guaranteed repaynent to us of $40rJ.OOO of the Sl,750,000 advanced.

The reason for that is JH - 2 that they Y-'ere p.oinp to use $4DQ,f100 of the Sl,750,000 we were advancing to repay hank loans they have tcuaranteed nnd we uerc not goinv to advance them monies of the p:overnment to repay obligations they had themselves, just advance them the money and then the province takes the r:isk and they do not,Go thev guaranteed repayment of $400.000 of the $1,750.000. If they do require the other $250,00() they will have to guarantee repayment of that S250,000. He are secured by a first Mortgage on the plant and equipment at Hawkes Rav.

They have to sr,encl, I think it is some $300,000 on the purchase of new equipment 922

February 23, 1973 Tape no. 308 Page l - MRW Mr. Crosbie~ for the mill,That is stipulated~ We had to deal with a previous agreement entered into by the honourable gentleman's government, with Newfoundland Forest Products,in 1970,which agreement was so bad, the conditions of which were so extremely bad that apparently certain members of the last government would not permit it to be put before the House of Assembly. It was signed despite the objections of certain members of the previous government and its terms were so exorbitant that it was never presented to this House for approvaL We had to deal with that.

There are no S~S~A. tax concessions in this agreement. In the past one 1 negotiated in 19701 it was S.S.A. tax free. They are not S.S.A. tax free in this agreement. We have agreed to make them a grant of $25,000 towards the cost of purchase of equipment. There is no power subsidy agreed to. We have agreed to make them a yearly grant to replace the power subsidy, because we feel that it is much better to know exactly what assistance you are giving a company that commences operation rather than subsidizing their power supply and you do not know what that is going to cost you every year.

It is very hard to know what it will cost you in ten years or in fifteen years. There is a specific grant for that, which I think is $25,000 a year. I am not sure. The honourable gentlemen will see the agreement anyway. These are some of the main features of it. We have the right to use the Bowater timber limits in the area, if there were any foreclosure or any problem with repayment of any of the monies. There is no point today,in going into too much detail because it will all be presented to the House.

With respect to Stephenville, we required.under the agreement~ (I am going by memory now) that Bowaters and Lundrigan's or Newfoundland Forest Products have either to recommence the operation of the mill at 923

Februarv 23, 1973 Tape no. 308 Page 2 Mr. Crosbie. Stephenville within the next twelve months(or it might be f fteen months, I_ cannot reme~ber exactly) or they have to recommence its o,eration again somewhere in the province or they have to sell or lea4e it to somebody else who will do so~ If they have not done either of those, the government can require them to sell it or lease it to s imebody else~ These are the main principles of it, The agreeme.n: took a long time to work out because Bowaters and Lundrigan's took the position that they were not prepared to expend any more mon •y.

They have had severe losses on the mill at Havkes Bay. They hav, a big investment there but they were not prepared to put any more money into the operation and, therefore, if the mill were to recorunence, the government would have to provide the money. We were de~ermined that if we were to provide the money, we were going to see ~hat it was used in the mill, that it was as protective as it could be ind that they could not use it to repay any of the indeptedness thev then had.

Anotl>r,r another feature here is that both Bowaters and Lundrigans hive both R-St"PPri any monies owed them by Newfoundland Forest Products or any of their subsidiaries or any monies they guaranteed for that company, which are still outstanding, cannot be repaid until our mortgage is r¾paid. I think when honourable gentlemen see the agreement they will understand why it took a long time to negotiate. The reason why we eventually went forward with this was th_e urgency, of course, of the hon.

M Lnister for Forestry and Agriculture,whose district it is in,and because we believe that if we cannot get the sawmill of that size, with that investment, operating properly in Newfoundland, there is something fundamentally wrong. It had to be given another chance. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, we look forward to having a look at that agreement when it is tabled, appended to the act. One thing the honourable 924

February 23, 1973 Tape no. 308 Page 3 minister mentioned which I find a little intrigueinR is the reference to an agreement which was apparently signed in 1970 or 19717 !!R. CROSBIE: 1969. MR~ Ws N~ ROWE: I am thinking about the second one that the honourable minister mentioned was signed over protests 925

February 23 1973 Tape 309 rn-1 of certain ministen that - I remember being hif!hlv involved, along vith my colleague, the Leader of thP ilpno.sition~ being hi r.:hl-y involved in ~ome negotiations which vere rather acrimonious at points and- some difficult noints were never overco'(lle. I must sa:'. I do not rewember an Order-in Council on the matter and I do not renember the thing ever having been slgnetl. It is on1v of ncndemic intere:;t now but it is an intere1Hinp noint. MR. CROSPTE: It was signed without an Order-in-Council. MR. W. '4. R!lWE: Is that right? It had n0 effect Flrntsoever. Surely.

Bowaters and Lundrlgans realize that. Thev are not that stum•ed, Was anv monev ever nai<l out under that or was it ever acted on bv Lundrigans nnd Bow;iters? tfR. CRos,_rgE: Well, the nosition under thnt agreement - and T om ?ive more details when it is dehnted in the House - uas that it was consl.dered to be in effect and thev went ahead, of course. and built the mil] nnd so on i,.1ithout r,nying SSA tax,on the grounds that this had heen agrer,d to hy the p:overnment.

We have had to agree that their SSA tax was ~•xempt at the end of 1971. 1 do not have the full story but it is <mite oh-rious that it wns slimed hy the last premier and that it was objected to hv the ~1inister of Mi.neR. Agriculture and Resources who refused to h;we it brought hefore the I-louse. It iust sort of remained in limbo. I mean, there is nothing illegal about it hut we had to - 1.ffi. NEAE_Y,: The hnnourable minister 7 in answering the ouestions that I put to him,stated that I rnve the House incorrect information.

T want to rtr!vise the members in this committee that I did not give the !louse incorrect information and I would J :Ike to remind the honourahle minister that I on the twenty-third of March, I th"1nk :it was,five days before the last provincial election - 1'fR. ROBERTS: One dav before. MR. NEARY: Yes, one day before. On the eve of the election, Hr. 926

February 23, 1973 Tape 309 IB-2 Chairman, one day before the last provincial election,the honourable minister's leader in Hawkes Bay told the people at a public gathering in Haukes Bay that if they elected his government then the sawmill would be open in two weeks. The honourable ~inister of - what is the honourable minister now anyway? What is his - HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mines~ Agriculture and Resources. MR. NEARY: Mines, Agriculture and Resources. The honourable minister was there and he heard the statement and then he said, nno, no, pardon me, not two weeks.

"Give me time -one month~" One month. that was all he needed,he said ,to open that mill. Now, the honourable minister comes in with a cock-and-bull story ahout how long it took to work out the agreement~ Well, Sir, we heard puhlicly- MR. CROSBIE: It was ~oing to be signed in 1966. HR. NEARY~ Will the honourable minister restrain himself. Will he restrain himself. The truth of the matter, Hr. Chairman. is that the honourable minister has such a hostile attitude towards individuals in this province and outside this province developing our natural resources and creating jobs, that he cannot restrain himself.

That is the thing that is going to cause the rift between the honourable minister and his leader, the honourable the Premier, when it takes place. MR. E. ¥.AYNARD: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member from Bell Island mentioned that the Premier made a statement in Hawkes Bay on the eve of the elections saying' that the mill would be open in tvo weeks. That is incorrect, totally incorrect. The Premier made a statement at Hawkes Bay saying that he had been advised this by the general manager of Bowaters Newfoundland Limited, Mr. B. R. Pride,that Bowaters intended to open the mill within two weeks to one month.

Bowaters did intend to open the mill within two weeks to one month at that time,with the exception that we would not accept the terms that they set forth to the government. The honourable minister said a few moments ago, Mr. Chairman, that we spent a year trying to work out this agreement because the 927

February 23, 1973 Tane 309 fB-3 government would not accent the ondn-tal terms and condition~ nf Bowaters rmd Newfoundland Forest Products put forth to us and neither would we and neither should we i ctc.becrruse they were 'ridiculous and therefore ve negotiated fnr a full venr and we finally got at least a sensih1e nTTreement. MR. II. M. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, did I understand the honourable minister correctly?

Did he in fact say that the PremJer,on a nublic platform on the eve of the election, announced Duhlicly that ½c had been advised by Bownters and LundriS?an (I would imagine) that in two weeks or a month the mill was goin? to be ooen and at that time he knew that the deal as rmt forward hv Rowaters and Lunclrignns uas not accentar-Je tn the government at thnt time and he did not go further and clari fv it to the neon1e in his audience nnd say to them, 'however it may be a lonf.I time heforf' 1-1e, the government, agree to the nroposnl of flowaters?'· Is this what the honourahle f11inister is saying, that the honourable minister did not p,o on ond clarify ir, but he left it hanS?inv in the air and left the clear imnressi.on in pconlds minds that the mill would he onen in two weeks or a month.

Because Jf he did do that, it is tantamount to telling them that it would be open in twn '\..'eeks 1 928

February 23, 1973 Tape 310 & 311 JM - 1 within two weeks or a month and it was a fraud perpetrated and committed on the people who were listening to him. No other - MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible) • HR. ROWE(II.N.): Listen to it, Mr. Chainnan. Pompous John. He is so fed up with the Premier off gallivanting around all over the world and he is there doing all the work that he cannot control his frustration. He cannot control it. He is there with a sour puss on him,a mile long~ Mr. Chairman. But to get back to the hon. minister ~ho is trying to defend the indefensible - HR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). HR.

ROWE(II .N. )_: Listen to it. HR. ROBERTS: Be cannot take it,that is his problem. HR. ROWE(W.ll.): The boss of the House, pompous John HR. ROBERTS: It is just ber,inning, my friend. It has just begun. HR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR~ ROWE(W.N.): Oh, I have spotted a lot of guff~ Nr. Chairman, but - KR. ROBERTS: In Hawkes Bay where they tear them limb from limb if they know they were tricked. MR. ROWE(W.N.): The point is, Mr. Chairman, before we were interrupted by. what is he called? What do they call him around the province? Mutton chops. MR. ROBERTS: No that is a polite word. AN HON. MEMBER: Tyrannosaurus Rex. MR.

ROWE(W.N.): Tyrannosaurus Rex, that is as close as he will ever come to being Rex, being king. HR. ROBERTS: That is like a dinosaur soon to be extinct. MR. ROvJE{tLN.): That is right. Anyway, Mr. Chainnan, - MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR. ROVYE(W.N.): Mr. Chairman, is this relevant what the hon. minister is going on with now. MR. ROBERTS: It is funny the calls for order only come when we are making cracks, not the other side. 929

February 23, 1973 Tape 310 & 311 MR. ROWE(W.N.): The point I am trying to m;1ke, Sir, is that h: not r;oing further. and we have the minister's word that he did not. by JM - 2 not going further the Premier perpetrated what can only be considered a fraud on the people who were listenin~ to ?im and it was a very unkind one as well because so many people were dependinp on emr,loyment in that mill in the area.

Now maybe the minister can come un vith something to clarify the situation but the distinct imriression that must have been'left was that that mill was r,oing to open in tw1 weeks or a month and he did not go furth£>r and advise them that howe ,•er as far as the government was concerned it would be a lot longer }:,,,cause they did not agree with the terms as proposed by Newfoundland r'orest Products. HON_,_jh,l_[AYHARD(MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE A'lll FORESTS): Hr.

Ch-drman. before the hon. member accuses someone of perpetratinr fraud w1d accusing neople of all kinds of wron_r!doinr:s,he should know what he is talking about which does not hnppen very often, T admit. The ,')renier made the statement that Mr. Pryde had advised him the mill cot1ld be open in a couple of weeks or a month.

Unfortunatelv 1 neither M,,-:wfoundland Forest Products nor the principals involved made any concrete ,1roposal or any specific riroposal or request to the government unti 1 s0·ne tif"le in April and the Premier had no way of knowing at that time that the comoany uere not 2,oing to make their proposals known to the r:overnment . When the proposals were made known in April. when they made their rcouest to the government for funds, the terms and conditions vere not ncceptahlc.> and we had to negotiate and that is exactly what we did.

The Premier made the statement and he did not make it on a public stage or puhlic gathering, he was meeting: with a small r,rouo of people but he did make it and he passed along the best information he had available to him at that particular time. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the minister is falling into exactly the same 930

February 23, 1973 Tape 310 & 311 JM - 3 position as did his colleague, the Minister of Justice, yesterday in the committee. Every answer he ~ives only makes the matter worse. Now let us try to put this into perspective. All that I know about the situation with respect to Hawkes Bay are three things. I know that the agreement between Bowaters and Lundrigan 1 s on one side, or Newfoundland Forest Products, they are a corporate creature, on one side and on the other side the Government of the P'rovince, was entered into maybe a month ago, within the past month. It was signed, I believe, in St.

John 1 s or in Corner Brook. It was announced at the time, about a month ago or within a month anyway. That is fact one. Fact two is that I have been told by people in Hawkes Bav, who were at the meeting to which the hon. member for St. Barbe South just referred,that the Premier ~ade a flat statement.

The Premier on March 23~ the day before the election, fluttered into Hawkes Bay on a helicopter, a government helicopter which I assume was being rented we will have a look at that in the public accounts committee, but fluttered in on a government helicopter~ alighted therefrom, met people who had been gathered around., The hon. gentleman.of course,,was there,a candidate seeking re-election at that point in the district, He hnd been elected by the Supreme Court or declared elected by the Supreme Court, I suppose would be a little more accurate. The Premier made the statement as these people have relayed it to me.

Now unfortunately we will never know what was said 931

February 23. 1973 Tape 312 PR~ l because we have to rely upon memory and memory is notoriously unreliable at the best of times. und memory in this sort of situation is even more unreliable than n9toriously unreliable, if that is possib.l e. The Premier made the statement, as these people understocd it, Sir. That if you vote for me, if I run elected Premier tomorrok, I am pharazing, I am not quoting but this is the gist of it, the ~ist and the substance of it.

If you vote for me, if I am Premier tomorrow when the ballots are in and everything is counted, this mill will be open within two weeks, it is not open then.,... then he paused. as my friend for Bell Island has said/no, not two weeks~ Give me a little more time.~ I am sorry I happend to refer to himself, he, the Premier. He may or may not have referred to Bowaters. The honourable gentleman says he did. I accept that.

The people with whom I spoke did not mention that but that is not to say it was not mentioned. ''Give me a little more time, give me a month, it will be open within a month.·' It seemed very reasonable. The people there were desperatley anxious to have that mill opened. There was a good reason in public policy to get it opened. The Minister of Finance has outlined that. That is fact two. Fact three are the various points and remarks the minister has made right now in the committee, as we discuss this particular item, Sir.

As I heard the minister and I was sitting here listening and I try to hear and I try to understand, the minister began by saying that the Premier said: Bowa.ter's President, Mr. Ben Pryde. Dewaters said the mill will be open in two weeks to a month,and this is what the Premier said. Is that the gist of what the honourable minister said? The Premier relaid that information. Then my friend and colleague from White Bay South said;"well that was very interesting/' It is most interesting, Mr. Cha:frman, but if the Premier had said that. Now the Premier must have known something more.

He must have known there was an order-in-council passed by the previous 9 ,, ;) <.,I , . .,

February 23, 1973 Tape 312 PK - 2 administration~ The Premier by that stage, Sir, had been in office as Premier for over two months. Surely in sixty days he discovered this matter, it was very topical, it was very much in the news, it was very much being talked about,. The Premier must have know"tl that the Bowater Lundrigan operation would not reopen. Indeed he did not have to be in office, Mr~ Chairman~ it had been announced publiely~as my friend, at least in the parliamentary sense, the gentleman for St. John's West has said it, it was announced during the October 1971 election campaign or previous thereto.

But it was quite public by then~ That mill was not going to be reopened by Bowatera and Lundrigan without government assistance~ That is a fact, a well known inescapable fact and the Premier must have known it. The man has at least normal intelligence, perhaps far more.

So the listeners, the people in Hawkes Bay to whom this was theirs not life and death, but their work, their economic salvation, as they saw it, came to the conclusion naturally,and I will say the Premier knew what he was doing, knew what he was doing.But if the Premier had said; 11 did Bowaters say it will be reopening'l 11 And everybody knew Bowaters had said it was not going to reopen without government assistance. Let the government deal with me, as my friend from White Bay South has said. So people naturally said the deal is made. Now when my friend from White Bay South makes that point, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable gentleman from St. Barbe South, the ministerJ gets up and says,. 11 0hri he said, "not the deaL We did not even get the terms until April, late April 11 Apr-iL In other words when the Premier made that statement he knew the mill could not open. He knew it. He had to know it, judging only from the facts I have outlined or from the minister's own wordse I think the minister owes this committee some more explanation.

Because as it now stands by his words he has shown that the Premier of this province misled the people in Hawkes Bay on the 23rd~ of March4 I am only going on the facts, what I know about the matter I have outlined. I know what I was 933

February 23, 1973 Tape 312 PK ~ 3 told in Fawkes Bay. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. We suffered yesterday, in silence, imputations and hints about the honourable the Premier misleading. !t has now come up again. It is well known in British parlimentary rules, if you trill look at page 130 in Beauchesne. that it is wrong to accuse anybody of misrepresentation. accuse somebody of misleading is to accuse him of misrepresenting the facts. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that this is entirely out of order. The honourable the Leader of the Opposition,with impunityiyesterday did it.

He should not fle allowed to do it today, Mr. Chairman. It has been ruled out of order in this House during this second sitting of this session. It ought not to be tolerated. We cannot have charges, unsubstantiated charges put across this House about any honourable member misleading this House or misleading anybody, Unless the honourable Leader of the Opposition is prepared to substantiate the samel AN HON. Hf.MEER: Mr. Chniman, MR. MARSHALL: I am not through with my point of order yet. This is one i:eason, one very good reason for the situation in this present House, Mr.

Chairman, together with the, obsession of the honourable L0ader of the Oppositiorinstead of criticizing appointments, criticizing personalities. This has to stop. HR. ROBERTS: Hr. Chairman, I will not t.ake lessons from the honourable House Leader on what I criticize. I have not criticized personalities, I do not intend to. Nor have I revealed private business and told lies ahout it. Now, Mr. Chairman, to come back to the so-called point of order, I am prepared to substantiate what I said. What I said in substantiation I said in leading up to the point. I shall stand on what I said in this debate.

Furthennore, the honourable gentleman,! subnit, I was going to say ttmisleading 11 I do not think he has that wit. The honourahle gentleman

February 23, 1973 Tape 312 PK - 4 is not correct. The references in Beauchesne are of course to things said in the House~ I referred to what the Premier said outside of the House. I regret very much the Premier is not here. But if we waited until the Premier was here, we would be waiting until Labour Day. The man has no more intention of appearing in this House to provide leadership than he does of walking on the moon. AN HON. MEMBER: That is the trouble with this House. }fR. ROBERTS: That is the trouble with this - now let the gentleman from St.

Barbe South, Mr~ Chairman, reply if he wishes~ What I have said, I said. I outlined the case. I am not saying I am right. What I am saying, I have given my evidence. If I run ¾"Tong, if the honourable gentleman produces the evidence to show I am wrong, I will gladly say I run wrong. But I have said what I have to say. MR. MAYNARD: On a point order, Mr. Chairman~ Mr. Chairman, I have~stated a couple of times - AN RON. MEMTIER: There is a point of order before the Chair~ MR. MAYNARD: Pardon. MR. CHAIRMAN: Deauchesne, Page 130, Item 155, .deals with abusive and insulting language.

It is the opinion of the Chair that inferences, innuendoes, if repeated often enough,do amount to abusive and insulting language and the honourable Leader of the Opposition is asked to refrain from such repetition. AN HON. MEMBER: Thank You, Mr~ Chairman~ MR. MAYNARD: I do not have to squirm my way out of anything, Mr. Chairman, I explained what happened in Hawkes Bay on the eve of the election, as the honourable Leader of the Opposition has termed it.

I said what the Premier had passed along, information that he had received from the President of a company in Newfoundland~ There was no reason why he would doubt the word of that particular person. If that company had presented the government with a proposal within a couple of daystthere was no reason why within a month 935

February 2 • 1973 Tape 312 PK 5 the proposnl could not have been accepted by government ~if it , ere a reasonable proposal. The Premier rlid not try to mislead the people in Hawkes lay or anywhere else. ! have explained the situation and that is nll I intend to say about it. MR. ROBERTS· All I have to say, Mr. Chairman, the evidence wi] l.. speak for itself. I do not intend to pursue this point. The honoun.ble gentleman has not answered it. But all he has done is confirm~d what I have said. The Premier made the statement, he was not perfertly frank about it. MR, NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I think now we are flogging a de.ad l-orse oc-; this Hawkes Bay situation. The honourable minister will pay tie price, a couple r•r three years from now. I am surprised, Mr. Chairmnr 1 honourable "1:inister without Portfolio, the House Leader,gettinr up on a point of order that he made. The whole - MR. CROSBIE: What is the relevancy of this to - MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the honourable member please keep his remarks to Economic Development. at the MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairmq.n, what I want to talk ahout is the str,, 1 mil 1. AN HON. HEHDER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Now we are getting on to something, Mr.

Chairw~n, I only wish that the honourable Premierwere in his seat this afternoon when we are discussing this matter. 936

February 23, 1973, Tape 313 1 Page 1 -- apb matter, because the whole troubl~ with this House, Nr. Chairman, is not on this side, it is because they have no leader~ The honourable member is again directing to irrelevancies. We are dealing with Head XV Economic Development. MR • ROBERTS : To a point of order, Mr. Chairman, Your Honour allowed the House. Leader to w.ake an attack on me~ MR. J.C.CROSBIE: Twaddle! Twaddle! Do not be so~ .• Hll.. ROBERTS:. Twaddle be-- HR. CllAIRHA!I: I would like to direct myself to the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition.

The House Leader rose on a point of order, the point of order was dealt with and now I am calling on the member for Bell Island to confine .. his remarks to Head XV, Economic Development. There was a ruling on that matter last night which was appealed to the House and sustained. HR. NEARY: Mr~ Chairman, in this matter of the steel mill, the honourable Premier had sho¼7n lack of leadership as he has in all other important matters that have come before this House.

That is a fair statement, Mr~ Chairman, the whole trouble with that crowd on the other side is they have no leadership., 'no leadership in the House, that is why they are disorganized and the whole thing is a shambles over there. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could bring us up to date on the steel plant situation'! I understand that there have been offers from a number of companies including a company that the honourahle minister is hostile towards, Brussel Steel of ~ontreal, because they are into a bit of a dispute, the minister is not speaking with that company.

Is there any possibility at all, Sir, of saving the steel mill and if not, would the honourable minister tell us what is going to happen to the thousands of tons, the thousands of dollars worth of scrap that are down at the steel plant? What is going to happen to all the manufactured products at the steel plant, reinforcement bars and the steel balls? What is going to happen to the plant itself, Sir, who is going to scrap it? Is it going to 93'7

February 23, 1973, Tape 313, Page 2 - upb be put up ns distressed merchandise? Is it p,oing to tie held intact with a security staff there to loot after the plant in the event that another operator might come along, take i.t over and start it un ar;ain 1 Or is it roing to be denolished, scrapped scrapped, Sir, who is going to scrap it? If it is g:oing to be I wonder if the minister could answer some of these questions by first of all bringing us :up to date on the negotiations that are taking place with the three or four firms to reopen the steel plant. This is the first thing that we have to talk about.

Let us not take ;i negative attitude, Sir. We start up the industries, the Li11erals start them up and the Tories close them up. The first thinr we have to do, Sir. at all cost,is Veep that plant going. I would like for the honourable minister to den.1 with that question first nnd we can deal with the other matters later. }fr.

Chairman, the honourable p.entleman is so outrageous and what he says is so out of line and is so pusillanimous, "it is so disgusting that I will not answer some of the silly points he nade about who starts up industries and who closes them, hecause this im1nstry was one the honourable gentleman should not have been talking .:frot 1 t opening up in the first place. It hns been a dismal fo.:Uure from thf' !'it.art. !-ffi. NEARY: JlR. CROSBIE: it. Tl1._at is a matter of opinion.

Perhaps we will give the honourable gentler1.an AN HON. }!El'llER: (Inaudible) joh to run HR~ CROSBIE· You would not lose less than about SS tnillion for the first year~ I do not know where the scrap would go. lffi • NEARY_:. It would not go to the family complex ,I can tell the honourable minister thnt. ~m .. CROSBIE:_ Hell, I do not know where it would p.o. MR. NEARY: That is where it will end up. }fil. CROSTIIE· Is that where it will end up? MIL NEARY: Crosbie Enterprises will end up with it for the family - 938

February 23, 1973, Tape 313, Page 3 -- apb ?a'R. CROSBIE: Well, we will try and sell it to them. If they will pay us anything for it we will sell it to them. HR~ NEARY:, Give it to them, the sane as we r:nve them E.P.A. Order please! MR. CHAIRNAN: !'R. CROSBIE: The honourable gentleman is always going on about, E.P.A.t:hat he helped along when he was in the governnent,and we are delighted to see he did it. Now, Mr. Chairman, back to this. The Minister of Industrial Development is looking after this. The government's decision was announced a week ago and it was all debated then.

The government ts position is quite simple, the government is not going to subsidize or pay the losses or meet the losses of the steel plant's operations in the future. We have made the decision that there are just no Possibilities there is no way that is feasible, there is no way that is viable. We have had advice from people who have been in the business for a hundred years who say and whose reports make complete economic sense, that it has no opportunity of ever even breaking even.

Therefore, the government is not going to put any more money into the steek mill or the operation of the steel mill~ We have already spent some three to four million dollars, I would say it is going to end up,since last January 18th~ to give it a chance and to keep it going, Now, there have been people in touch with the Minister of Industrial Development who say they are interested in making proposals in connection with the steel mill.

Our position is quite clear 1 if any of them or any one of them make a proposal that they wish to take over and operate the steel mill, the physical facilities that are out at Donovan's, that they have some use for, that they can operate it and as long as their proposal does not involve us in any direct subsidization of i~ or involve us in any way in which we can lose again next year one million dollars, or tv-o or three million dollars, that they make us a proposal and take it over 1we are certainly willing to consider · 939

February 23, 1973, Tape 313, Page 4 -- aph it,if they present something that sounds sensible and that is not going to arouse false hopes and if they are people that are in the iusiness and have assets and are prepared to risk some money themselve:. If anyone come alon~ like thnt 1 we are certainly roing to listen to then. They all know that there is a certain limite< time for them to make us a proposnl.

If nothing else happens and 1-othing sensible comes forwnrd in a month 1 s time or vi thin the next t, o months, we 11ill have to start selling the scrap and we "Will have to si art salvaging the machinery and selling the machinery and go into liquidation and get back as much money as we can. When that I reration commences 1 t wi 11 be done hy a liquidator. He will get the b( st price nossible for scrap or for anything else~ That is the positio1- and they know that.

There are one or two who appear to be people of suhstance 1 one I know about in particular, the minister may know about others,who are people of substance in this husiness,,who might just possil ly come in with something sensible~ They know they have only three or four weeks to do something about it, they have been rtiven full informati11n, they have been given STELCO 1 S report, all the information we have n the steel mill has been made available to them, but as the minist,-r said the other day, we are certainly not suggesting that this is likel , . We are not goinr to raise any false hopes.

The present operation. operated by Newfoundland Srnel 0968 or 1970),.Limited,is finished. We. are finished with it, we will 10t put any more money in it, we will not be involved in it. I think that answers the honourable gentleman 1 s question, but it is certainly going to he intact for another couple of weeks before any steps are taken to liquidate it. On motion, Head XV, Economic Development, carried. HEAD XI:p,~~ ]-funicipal Affairs and HoUSing Sl ,488, 320 .OO MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Chairman, before the minister spenks on that I just want to rive some information that I agreed to ~ive last night or to 940

February 23, 1973, Tape 313, Page 5 - apb obtain. I have not all the information yet, they are still workin? on it, but on royal com:missions;there were questions asked about what was paid for royal commissions during the year. The Royal Commission on Taxation and Revenue; they were paid during the year $5,914.44; the Royal Commission on the Newfoundland Family Law Study was paid since last Aprill, $24,294.23; the Royal Contmission on Labour Legislation was paid $18,936.30; the Royal Commission on the St.

John 1 s Arterial Road $166.74 (very reasonable); the Royal Commission on the Blackhead Road Urban Renewal Scheme $110}153.90 MR. W.N.ROWE: Does the honourable minister know if these are fees? MR. CROSBIE: No, no$ This is disbursements~ you know, it is not just fees~ These are fees and all disbursements. I think the fees are reasonable and the rest is disbursements for other studies that were done, secretarial help and office space.

The Royal Commission on Nursing $764.36; the Royal Commission on Newfoundland Liquor Leases $40,429.20; the Royal Commission in Labrador $18,168.56; on Municipal Government $4,209.98; on the Magistracy $1,000.00 on Workenmen1 s Compensation $127.12, that is the study that is being done by Magistrate O'Neill'! 'With reference to Bell Island, $8,683.18~ AN RON. MEMBER: Legal fees? MR. CROSBIE: This represents some of the legal fees, yes. AN. HON. MEMBER: How much of it is legal fees? MR. CROSBIE: About $8,000.00 of it. 941

February 23, 1973 Tape No. 314 . •! - 1 MR. CROSBIE: to the legal counsel, Mr. 0 1 Neil, and the secretary Mr. Puddes ter. MR. NEARY: How much to Mr. O'Neil? MR. CROSBIE: The honourable gentleman is not thinkinp.; of usir g this when he appears before the enquiry is he? MR. NEARY: I will use it when the time comes, do not worry. MR$ CROSBIE: Mr. 0 1Neil - $4,000, this is approximate; Mr. Puddester - $4,000 approximate. MR. NEARY: They really found a milked cow there, did they n,-t? MR. C]pSBIE: I do not know.

I think the Blackhead Road was ,1 lot larger. 1 think they are going to slice the mother-load before thev are through. MR. NEARY: They will drag this one out another - MR. CROSBIE: The Royal Commission on the Ruth Thompson case, the honourable gentleman is familiar with that - $948.49, that is quite a reasonable one, $948.49. MR. NEARY: The minister down in Provincial Affairs is familiar with that one. He is the one who asked for it. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I was asked about - AN HON. GENTLE~ That does not pay for the - MR. CHAlR.l.fAN: Order please. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. ehairman, I was asked about - /u1 HON.

GENTLEMA.'I: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: There is a wind gap over there. His mouth is always open. Now the honourable gentleman asked me about this last night and I am trying to give him the information, just to show him how we grovel at every snap of his fingers. Now the Chairman of the Royal Commission on Labrador has been paid $25,500 per annum. This is what the university pays'. him and we are reimbursing the university. The only other salaries that I 942

February 23~ 1973 Tape No. 314 NM - 2 MR. CROSBIE: know about is a Lawrence Jackson - $10 1 250 per annum, Elaine Harris - $7,692 per annum, and Pamela Pa:rasak (I think it is) $6,156. These are all I believe, employees of Memorial who we are reimbursing. I have not been able to find out yet who is paying for the filming that is going on but in due course I will report to the House on the film½ MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairir.an, could I ask the honourable minister a question? On the 0 1Dea Royal Commission, does that include the Robinette fee? I do not think so, no~ MR. NEARY!

Well, could the honourable minister get us the information because that has to do with the Royal Commission Report? MR¾ CROSBIE: The honourable gent should really put a question down. MR. NEARY: Could the honourable minister tell us how much the taxpayers of this province paid out to Mr. Robinette? MR. CROSBIE: I will get that information. I will say this much though, that the taxpayers of this province paid out hundreds Of thousands of dollars in rents they should not have paid before Mr. Robinette came on the scene and Mr.

Robinette's bill will be very, very minor compared to the hundreds of thousands of dollars that went out in illegal payments. MR. NEARY: If the honourable minister does not have anything to hide, let us see the bill. MR. CROSBIE: There is nothing to hide, his bill is quite reasonable. MR. COLLINS: Under the heading of 1311.-031.,02, - Grantts to local councils - $500,000, under heading 1321.05~01 - Blackhead Road Urban Renewal Scheme - $988,320 for a total of $1,488,320.

The $500i000 amount - grants to local councils is brought about by additional ftmda required as follows:~(1) during the current financial year twenty new municipalities were established, and the average claimant on revenue grants to these municipalities will 943

February 23, 1973 Tape No. 314 H - 3 MR. COLLINS: be $5 1 000 each for a total of $100,000.

(2) The ~aximum revenue grant and all honourable members will remember, the m: .dmurn revenue trant payable to municipalities in one year was incre2sed from $75,000 to $100tOOO, the ceiling was raised to $100,000, MR. WM. ROWE: When was that increased? MR. COLLINS: Within the past year. MR. WM. ROWE: Before the estimates were brought into the Hou&e, was it not? MR. CULLINS: It was announced before, but it was not taken cate of in the estimates for last year.

It was announced in the Th.rote Speech~ but the arrangements were not made for budgeting in tl e previous estimates, it is an amount which we did not have in !here. That amount is still approximately $300,000. (]) The third eason for the increase there unforeseen, is that approximately fiftetn water and sewer systems came on stream, become operational during the year and of course additional funds were required under tl e water st;hsldy vote and you could not foretell those.

The $988,320 - The Blackhead Road Urban Renewal Schee which is as the result of a majority arbitration board report, I th·nk honourable members will know what I am talking about here bee, use the arbitration board was set up by the previous administrati,,n~ on what wrs paid to one of the contvactor who was involved in the Blackh,,ad Road Urban Renewal Scheme~ MR. WM. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, to deal with the last :matter fir ,t - the Blackhead Road Urban Renewal Scheme, the honourable minis er is quite correct when he says that the previous administratim1 set up a board of arbitration in order to see whether there w ,s any validity to claims by the contractor. (Lundrigan 1 s I think it was) Lundrigan's were the contractor up there~ They were low bidders under a federal-provincial cost sharing deal and I think they were too low on it and I think they more or less lost their shirt up there, but when we left office the thing was not at all resolved. If I

February 23, 1973 Tape No. 314 NM - 4 MR. WM. ROWE: remember- correctly, the board of arbitration had brought in an award whi~h you could not even be called a :majority award, I think there was a majority decision on some liability but there was then a split decision among all three.

I think one person in fact went so far as to say there was no liability but in the majority decision of the board of arbitration, there was some decrepency, some difference. some disparity between the amount that one arbitrator said should be ow_ing to the contractor as a result of these extras and these problems that were encountered and another one said a lesser amount should be paid to them. I would like to ask the minister how that problem was finally resolved because it was a thorny problem before we left.

I would also like to find out from the minister if anything was done about appealing the decision of the arbitration board because I think the lawyer acting for the government at the time, had made,if not a written suggestion to that extent,•at least I think he had conveyed orally to the government the idea that the award of the arbitration board should be appealed because I think he thought it was wrongo Now the gentleman happens to be a member of the government at this moment. It is too bad he is not in his seat as he might be able to cast some light on it.

I think he is in Montreal today or heading for Montreal. I would like to find out exactly what transpired with regard to that arbitration,following January 18, when the old administration left office. MR- COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, there was an arbitration board set up, as the honourable member says, by the previous administration. The arbitration hoard subsequently made a report. There were three members on the board and the majority of the people on the board, two of them, did make a recommendation in the amount which he mentioned here today, as an award which should be paid to Lundrigan's, someone 945

February 13, 1973 Tape No. 314 NM - 5 MR. COLLIN~: mentioned Lundrigan's, they were the contractorf 1 here was a minority report, I forget the exact amour . , but somewhere in the order I believe of S600,000 recommended, Tht honourable member asked what transpired.

We sought a lot 0f different legal opinions and this is not a reflection on the honourable gentleman but I am sure that the persons in the ga.J lerie~ and other members who are unlearned in the legal profession m1 ,t realize, especially these past couple of days 1 that we do not; ways get a unanimous point of view when we are talking with lawyen We did endeavour, not endeavour to negotiate with Lundrigan's Lin ted hut to try an<l reach a settlement on this which would be acceptab1 to both parties.

That was not possible, Looking into the cir umstances surrounding the case on the Blackhead Road, which I do not wan to go into here. I am sure that members opposite and those on t~ is side of the House will realize the tremendous problems run int in that particular urban renewal project and government, in their wisdom 1 looked at the possibility of iointly 946

February 23, 1973 Tape no~ 315 Page l - !!RI/ going to court. In fact we did give notice that we might appeal the ruling. The government, in their wisdom, decided. This was a government decision ~nd not necessarily mine~ Government did decide, in their wisdom, that we would acknowledge the majority report. The majority report of the arbitration board was that $988,320.00 should be paid to Lundrigan'a. MR. W~ N. ROWE; I think the minister has given a reasonable explanation~ I believe that that is what we would have done if we had stayed in office.

The gentleman who represented the government at the time gave us( if I remember it correctly, and I am trying to separate any privileged information I might have received - information given to me as a member of the government) the advice that there was a good chance or a chance, if we went to court, of having the amount lowered and naturally the government cast about looking at the whole situation, looks at the time involved, looks at the publicity involved, the hardship on the contractor, if there was a reasonable case put, the diversity of opinion that you inevitably get from lawyers, when you are talking about quantum, when you are talking about amount of damages.

I think it was a reasonable decision in all the circumstances. This amount of $988,320, was that the amount of the majority decision or were there any negotiations down there? MR. COLLINS: Mr~ Chairman, that is the exact amount. MR. W~N. ROWE: That is the exact amount. Okay, well I will leave that point. I think that that was reasonably looked after.

The other point - there may have been some public announcements on this point already but would the minister mind giving the comm1ttee 7 if he has the information~ giving us some information as to what are the overruns now upon the Blackh~ad Road, as compared with the original contract, the original deal signed between the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland? I guess the City of St. John's were in on it too. What are the overruns to date? 947

February 23, 1973 Tape no. 315 Pa.~e 2 Mr. W. N. Rowe; What are the projected overruns? W1tat is likely to be th, total cost of that job by the time it is finished? MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, that is difficult to say. The scheme as we know is a partnershp between the province and the federal government. The people of Blackhead Road are not making vny financial contributions. The city, of course, is not involved because it is outside the city limits. What the overruns will be, we r~ally do not know. Where they are now, I could not say but I will undertake to get that information.

There is a fair amount of work to be done up there. There are a lot of problems still remaining to be dealt with, people's problems,mainly in terms of final settlements on land, final settlements on housing and some ditching and what have you. We are by no means satisfied with the conditions. We are determined to bring about a solution so far as we can go. Hopefully this year we will get the scheme done. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, there is one final question on this point, if I may. Could the minister give us some indication as to how the federal government treats all of this?

Have they put the clamps on, not another cent more~or are they amenable to negotiating the extra costs, negotiating a share for them to pay of the extra costs? This would, of course, include the arbitration award. Are they going to pay half of that arbitration award? I believe this is one of the problems which we had, with regard to going to court.

I think that this was the advice given us, that perhaps in order to make sure that the Government of Canada uere on the hook as far as paying (well as sure as you could be) the amount of the arbitration award was concerned~ we should have a decision from the Supreme Court on the matter. I am wondering if that question were resolved~ Do we expect to see the federal 948

February 23, 1973 Tape no. 315 Page 3 Mr. W. N. Rowe government kicking in nearly $500,000 on the arbitration award and, of course, the other overruns on that job? MR. COLLINS: Mr~ Chairman, we are certainly hopeful that we can negotiate the cost-sharing with the amount of the award. It was rather awkward to get federal approval of anything, unless it was an accomplished fact. There was not much sense in trying to deal with them, until we could tell them what the amount was and how it was going to be settled.

The only thing I can tell the committee at the present time is that we nre negotiating with the federal government for cost-sharing of this amount and any returns, We are optimistic that we will be successful in obtaining their share of it. Urban renewal programmes as we know them, of course, are taboo more or less with the federal government now. They are now looking at LIP Programmes, maybe with improvement as opposed to a bulldozer approach. We are pretty confident that the federal government will bear their share of the cost. MR. WOODWARD: Mr.

Chairman, before we leave this subhead, maybe the honourable minister would like to elaborate on the forming of new community councils, goVernment's participation and willingness to have new councils formed in this province. I noticed that over the years there have-been a rapid grOWth or increase in new community councils. I wonder if the honourable minister would care to explain to the committee the criteria set by his department to enable a community to get a community council? MR.

COLLINS: Mr~ Chairman, the first requirement is that the people must indicate(by plebiscite or the majority of people at a meeting, depending upon what type of government they intend to set up) to us,that a majority of the people desire some form of local governmente It is really no great problem,, if eighty per cent or 949

February 23, 1973 Tape no. 315 Page 4 Mr. Collins. eighty-five per cent of the people indicate by petition or at a public meeting that they are desirous of having local government established. When you reach the stage where fifty-one per cent or fifty-two point five per cent or fifty-three per cent of the people indicate on this list, then we must go back and make sure that the petition was circulated in the proper form, that there is no duplication of names, etc~ This is very difficult at times.

What I am saying is that sometimes it takes us months, months and months because the last thing in the world we want to do is establish a local council somewhere and find that,after a few months, the thing was established illegally,and then it would have to be cancelled out. It might set the local government concept back years, years and years. We have agreed to a nuwiller having incorpo~ation during our tenure ~f office. As I said, we have always tried to make sure that the people were ready and the people did want local government before they agreed to it.

We are a little bit concerned about the different types of local government. We have the City of St. John•s, under the City of St. John's Act. We have the City of Corner Brook incorporating under the Corner Brook City Act. Then we have the Local Government Act, the Community Councils Act, the Local Improvement Districts Act, the Rural District Councils Act, which have grown over the years I suppose to meet the changing needs of the people. I am not sure if it is kept up to date with the needs of the people.

Right now the Royal Commission on Local Government are taking a very close look at the various local government acts. We are hopeful that after holding public hearings across the province, listening to the community councils' representatives and the people and others that we will be able to come up with a better form, a better piece of legislation. MR4 WOODWARD: I would like to thank the honourable minister, Mr. Chairman, for his remarks, which I think is the explanation I was looking for. Anyway I would like to go on a little further. I think that a lot of the 950

February 23, 1973 Tape no. 315 Page 5 the communities in this province feel that there has to be a certain population in a community before they are eligible to apply to the municipal government or to the Department of Municipal Affairs for some sort of local municipal rule. The problem that I am looking at here, Mr.

Chairm.an1 the whole thing gets involved with a number of other government agencies and espeCially the clean, Air Water and Soil Authority who is going around throughout the province and saying to individual residents in each community; ,iclean up your community.n There is actually no legal body involved to do it. I was wondering if maybe the honourable minister would care to elaborate a little bit further? MR. COLLINS: Mr~ Chairman, there is nothing in either one of the acts which deals with the number of persons who are required to inhabit a particular place before they can apply for local government status.

I would suggest that in the smaller places in Newfoundland, ten, fifteen or twenty families, I really cannot see where it would be to their advantage because you are looking at government programmes in terms of revenue grants, road grants and water subsidies. To be really effective and be meaningful to the people, there would have to be numbers, The larger the place, of course, the easier it is on the local people to do what they want to do.

I can appreciate what the honourable member is referring too This is something again in which I am not trying to avoid the issue~ It is something which the royal commission will be looking into~ What they will suggest we do not know but I knaw that they are looking at the arrangements which apply in British Columbia, the arrangements in New Brunswick and in Quebec where there are varying forms of regional government, if you want to. I do not know what they will recommend. They will look at all of those and hopefully they will come up with some suggestions which will encompass the best of 951

February 23, 1973 Tape no. 315 Page h Mr. Collins all of the arrangements across the country. I am very hopeful that they will be able to come up with a realistic approach to that particular problem. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I think this is Your Honour's first time in the Chair this session~ I would like to welcome you back, Sir. I would like to ask the honourable minister if he would inform the committee if the sewerage problems on the Blackhead Road, resulting from a freeze-up this winter have been cleared up? I understand that a few weeks ago the sewer lines were frozen, the sew~rage was flowing out over the ground or out in a ditch over there. Could the honourable minister give us a 952

february 23, 1973 Tape 316 IB-l progress report on what is happening concerning that situation over on the Blackhead Road. MR, H* A~ COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, Ye spent a lot of time on the problems of the Blackhead Road. ,When I ea.y a lot of time, I do not mean here but down in the department. I think it is a- shame that the Department of Municipal Affairs was ever involved as the implementers of the Urban Renewal Scheme on the Blackhead Road or for any other scheme for that matter.

However, it is a fact of life they were, I think it was a mistake and sh0uld not be premitted to happen again~ Not the project hut government should not have been involved directlv in inmlementing the scheme. The city could not have done this hecauae they were not within the city boundries but the Mundy Pond Urban Rcne~al Scheme is done by the city with the province and the federal government backing up financially.

I think there should have been a group of people formed, by election or otherwise,elected preferahlv,from the Blackhead Foad to have been the implementers of the scheme with the province and the federal government backing them up. However, to answer the question the honourable member has just out forward, I cannot speak for faults or I cannot speak for engineers. There have been a lot of engineers look at the problem on the Blackhead Road.

I am sure that all the honourable members must. realize that that particular corranunity,with the terrain as it is~must have offered real problems to engineers and planners, The sewer line which the honourable member refers to became frozen again this year. Fortunately, we were able to,bec.ause of an assist, I suppose,from above, we were able to eliminate a very serious nroblem,as we had last year. The proble.~ arises from the fact that the sewer line·. there is not buried and there have been one or two low soots developed in it whereby during the night,when there is not much flow of 953

February 23, 1973 Tape 316 J 1-2 water there.the lines became frozen and then t~e oipes burst. We had an engineering firm from the Mainland take a look at it and thev suggested that we put in svnhons which work on the basis of a flush box. You know what I mean, where wate:r is S'-phoned through nnd dried out. We found out since that.,after waiting for about eight months,that those things could not be manufactured for some time in the future. Some engineers have questioned whether they wnuld work or not. So, I would sav that we are looking now toward insulating the pi.pes.

Since it is instal let1 over ground? we must try and find some way to be able to operate in that area, Hhat the final solution wi] ! be, I do not know hut it looks like we will be roinr to insulation an.1 nossibly an improved type of synhon. MF. F. ROPE: 1 anpreciate the fact, Mr. Chairman, that the h,,nourable mintster'i:: officals are looking for a permanent solution to the rrohlem but I am not C"llite clear on what the minister said about the situation at this narticular moment. Is the sewerage still flowing? MR. COLLI!_l~_:_ No, no. Evervthinr i..s all right now. t'R. F. ROWE: Fine. Dkav.

I dn not know if this :is the right place to bring this matter uo Put nrohlems have been caused by the restructuring of ~overnment. The fact that 1 I believe - well, let us p.:et hack to this water supnlv nroblem in unincornorated areas. There are a great many not covered under this heading. This is why I expressed some douht whether thig is the right place to hring it un or not. There are a Rreat number of communities in Newfoundland who are well into the construction of some water service projects. Thii:i was done by the former Department of Community and Social Development.

Now, I believe it comes under your deoartment. I was wondering if you could give the committee some idea as to the nrogress of these projects as they were being carried out by the former deoartment as to whether or not some of the projects that were stopped under thnt former department are going to be started up once again under your rlenartment? MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairmant as the honourable member mentioned,as a 954

February 23, 1973 Tape 316 IB-3 result of restructuring the water services, the Water Services Division of C6mmunity and Social Development has been placed in our department.

The policy of that division or that department was that monies to the extent of three 'hundred dollars for family for a maximun of ten thousand dollars - I am pretty sure that I nm right here - ten thousand dollars per community was made available to a water committee to derive, dig wells, drill wells or bring water from a pond or whatever to make it available to the people in the community~ That 1 from Yhat I know about it - and I ROt a quick look at it - that once that grant is made there are no further grants for maintenance purposes~ There is no policy to cover maintenance.

It was asst1nwd that the water c.omm.ittees in those places 1 after having the system installed 1whatever it was. they would assume responsibilities for maintenance anrl they would assume the responsibilty for the cost of maintenance by handing around a hat or making some collection somehow in the community. We are taking a look at that. Just what our policy will be I do not know. It is certainly an area which we would have looked at very closely because I am of the opinion,from what I have seen so far,that there might be more problems caused than relieved. MR. F.

ROWE: I wonder if the minister could inform the committee as to how far they have progressed in their thinking with respect to the establishment of regional governments in the province. I will use an example: That of my own district here where you have twenty-seven small communities, three of which only have some form of a local government. The very thing that I brought up here this afternoon is the difficulty that the people are having with getting building permits and building homes in the district of St. Barbe North.

We probably would not have that difficulty if we had greater co-ordination of the Various departments and divisions that I mentioned, if we had more fieldmen in the district and possibly if we had some form of regional government so that seventeen and eighteen of these communities could work together instead of in j}55

February 23. 1973 Tape 316 IB-4 isolation. MR. COLLINS : Mr. Chairman, in regard to the honourable member's last remark about the Restricted Road Zone Regulation which we are policln~ in Development cOntrol. I think I indicated to the honourable member a few days ago that we are briefing up our staff on the West Coast and indeed in Central Newfotmdland and other areas.

J ~ight also mention that we are enlarging the Appeal Board procedure~ There is one -provincial appeal board now and we anticirate a minimum of three or mavbe five appeal boards across thr, province so that those people 7 first of all ,when thev make their applications thev can be dealt with more quicklv and in the event thnt they are not approved ,then the anpeal procedure is readilv available, I think that is very important and we are moving in that direction. l-'jth regard to regional government, we are looki.ng to the roynl cotmnission I might sav.

I would not like to say anythini:; else at this t·lme because that commission are conducting public he;;ring.s across th<' province now and thev promised us their report for October or Novemher which is not too long away. I know thev wjll come up with some arrangement ¼hereby the more competent, not the more - I should not put it that way - hut whereby the larger municip~litv, if you want to, can possibly help the guv living in the smalJ~r place whether it be incorporated or unincorporated.

I am verv hopeful th.at we will come up with some arrangement, to view what the honoun,ble member is thinking about 1 which meets the eye. MR. FRED v,~ Another question, Mr. Chairman) there are a tremendous number of municipalities particularly in the northern regions nf th8 province 1.•ho are e:xperiencinr prohlems with complete freeze-up of the main water lines as well as the branch ofFwater lines through their homes. This is water supply systems as well as sewer systems. Twas wonderinr. if the minister could indicate to the committee whether or 956

February 23, 1973 Tape 316 IB-5 not there ,are some extra funds going to be made available this year or some way to heln these people with thawing out, repairing broken pipes and this type of thing1 MR. COLLINS: The officals of the department are looking into the conditions in Northern Newfoundland now, Cooks Harbour for instance, That is in White Bay North, T quess. We have arranged for some equipment to be sent into Cooks Harbour to try and assist them there. In regard to the<;smaller communities v1 hich nre unincorvorated, p-enerally speaking we are talking about wells or plasttc nipinp:.

There is not much we can do with that in the winter months. At any rate, the officals in the department are looking at it to see what is needed and what can be done.if anything. PR. F. ROWE: Some of these systems have been nut in quite recently. I mean, if you start having the water systems freezinµ un and oipes cracking un this early, within a year after the thing was installed, whostresponsibility really is it ? Persumedl;t, they get most of their freeze ups the first or second year when the ground is still loose and has 'not settled back yet.

The engineering consultants generally do a pretty good ;iob,always bearing in mind costs, of course~ when you look at lots of areas in Newfoundland where there is a bald rock nnd you have a couole of hundred thousand dollars 957

February 23, 1973 Tape 317 PK - l to put in a water system, if you ~ant to run through all of that by going down four feet, when one knows you should go down twelve feet. We must take a chance sometimes. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if the Minister of Education wants to put a question to the honourable minister or not~ I would like to ask the honourable minister if he would explain to the committee the situation that developed in Glenwood, whe~eby - MR. COLLINS: I know Glenwood quite well. MR. NEARY: Yes, I am sure the honourable minister is quite familiar with Glenwood, Sir. MR.

COLLINS: And Bell Island. MR. NEARY: And Bell Island,and a few other places, and Peterview. MR. COLLINS: And Peterview. MR. NEARY: That is right. So would the honourable minister - MR. COLLINS: You name them and I have been there. MR. NEARY: Will the honourable minister inform the committee what progess ie being made on the waterline that has been installed at Glenwood that will service, I think it is eight homes, for $180,000? Why the cost was ~o high, if public tenders were called and if the contract was awarded to the lowest bidder? MR. COLLINS: Hr.

Chairman, I do not know if we should be dealing with this here and dealing with it again when the estimates come up. Only for I am in a fairly good moood today, so I will - MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. COLLINS: Yes, but it is not under those estimates. MR. NEARY: Well it is grants to local councils, Sir. MR. COLLINS: Okay, that is stretching it a little bit. We will go into it. I presume the honourable member is referring to figures which appeared in the 11S unday Herald 11 of some issue, which are. completely misleading. MR. NEARY: What are they? 958

February 23, 1973 Tape 317 PK - 2 MR. COLLINS : The figure I believe of $186~000 for eight families was used. The actual amount of money which has been made available to the Town of Glenwodd and this can be confirmed in the department downstairs or by calling the mayor. in Glenwood, was $25,000 to provide water and sewerage to sixteen families, at Salmon Brook. MR, WINSOR: The honourable minister referred to quite a number of new municipalities. I noticed ju.st a few days ago there was elected a town council at Joe Batt 1 e Arm. At what stage do they now begin to get that grant?

As soon as they are sworn into office« Then would thPrP be a grant made available to them to carry out certain works? This matter of Clean, Air, Water and Soil Authority again, I am sure the minister knows what I am getting at. A council had arranged for financial arrangement to have a water and sewerage installed and then they discover that it is heing rejected by the Clear, Air. Hater and Soil Authority - the minister knows quite well which community I am referring to, that of Fogq. I earnestly believe that the minister has a great desire to get that system started and get it installed. Where does it rest now?

Does the Clean, Air, Water and Soil Authority pr can they go into a community and tell a councily ''1 am sorry we have to reject this system from being installed here because of pollution problems.~ Or can the minister overrule that authority? MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, with regards to the first part of the question, Joe Datt 1 s Arm. There was a new council elected there a while ago. I had a conversation with Mr. Decker who has been elected mayor, while I was in Grand_ Falls,about one week ago. We send him the necessary legislation and regulations and paper work and so on and so forth.

We will be sending a-municipal in~pector in there within days or probably weeks« There is an initial grant made available to the council whether it has been sent to Joe Batt's Arm or yet, I do not know, but that follows almost immediately~ With regard to Fogo and the Clean, Air, Water and Soil Authority's refusal to perm.it the installation of a water system without going ahead 959

February 23, 1973 Tape 317 PK - 3 with a sewer treatment plant, CAWSA I am afraid under the existing legislation are all-powerful in those regards~ Certainly I cannot overrule them. The last I have seen on it is that the Fogo Tomi .Council have made certain proposals to CAWSA with the hope that they will permit them to be able to discharge their affluent by some more economical means than the engineers had pointed out~ We are hopeful that they will be able to reach some agreement with them which w1i1 permit them to go ahead with the water. MR. ROWE, 11.N.

Hr~ Chairman, I do not know if this question was asked before.I was out of the House for a few minutes, but of the amount of $500,000 for local councils, has any of that to do with grants or projects which the federal government are assisting councils with? In other words what I a~ asking has the Provincial Government found itself in the very unpleasant position again, ·probably to pick up a certain amount of the cost of some of the grants, some of the projects rather, which the federal government have encouraged local council to get involved in. If so,abqut how much? If he does have that information? MR.

COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if any of these costs are reflefted here. But to answer the honourable member's question about LIP programmes, I am sure he will agree with me when I say that is a major concern to all of us , not only to this province but all the other provinces of Canada, particularly this one, particularly Newfoundland. We get a lot of criticism, my department and my offic~als and myself I am paid to take criticism, but sometimes the officials are not. We processed in the province about 1,250 applications under the Local Incentive Programmme,last fall.

Very often.the officials of the department have vorked weekends and nighttime to get the applications into Halifax, because somewhere along the line it is said, you know;first come, first served ''sort of thing, It did not mean anything, I do not think, But at least we did what we could to get them processed from here and into Halifax 960

February 23, 1973 Tape 317 PK - 4 Approximately 200 of the applications were subsequently approved. That is not a very good average* However, we have no control on it because it is federal government money and they are the people who finally approve or disapprove. They said that there would be no further applications approved because there was no money~ That means of course that most of the municipalities are now coming to the province. Certainly there is no money in Ottawa, I do not see how you can expect it to be in St. John's.

But to deal more specifically with the question, we are not satisfied with the way the programme is run because very often you will find groups in a municipality or in a community with the best of intentions to make application for funds to carry out some project and they will find in the spring of the year or the aumm.er,whenever the programme terminates,that the project ia hardly ·finished and very often they turn it over to the municipality and of course the next week they are in front of my desk looking for monies to complete it»

We are of the opinion, in fact we are convinced that those programmes that the federal government comes up with should be thought out more fully and the money ma.de available to the province so that we can set the priorities and make sure that we can supplement it and complement and get the things done properly. HR. ROWE. W.N. I suppose it is relevant, Mr. Chairman, the question I asked the minister was whether any amount, any part of that $500,000 went for this purpose? So if it did, then it is relevant, if it did not, I am not relevant. Did the minister answer that question? MR.

COLLINS: I cannot say whether it does or does not. Actually I doubt it because, if the honourable member does not mind, $100,000 is for the current financial-year because of new municipalities being formed, $300,000 is for revenue grants brought about because of where we lifted the ceiling from $75,000 to $100,000 1 this effect about twelve - ilN HON. MEMllER: Inaudible. MR~ COLLINS: Well the maximum revenue grant to any municipality in 961

February 23, 1973 Tape 317 PK - 5 Newfoundland prior to $75,000, there were about twelve or fifteen municipalities who were being discriminated against because their revenue collections meant that they were entitled to more than that. The ceiling was lifted, which discriminated against about fifteen municipalities. But fifteen municipalities are hetter off to the tune of $25,000. The other Sl00,000 was brought ahout by the need for or rather the payment of subsidies on water and sewer programmes. MR. ROWE. W.N. On the whole question, Mr. Chairman, AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROWE, W,N& It seems passing stran~e. as it has been said here in the House before, that the government would not have made provision in the budget, the estimates of last year,for this extra $25,000 for fifteen municipalities. It has already been announced in the throne speech. I will just ask the question, maybe the minister can deal with it later.

February 23, 1973 Tape 318 JM ~ J Why was not the extra amount of money put in the budget last year, the estimates last year? Secondly on this question of LIP grants, and I assume I an being relevant, Mr. Chairman~ since we do not know if this money covers that or not. The minister says th.:tt 1.200 applications are received. From municipalities? MR. COLLINS: From municipalities and groups and individuals. This is not all municipal applications. }IR. ROWE(W.N.): Yes but do other groups have to go through the Department of Municipal Affairs? MR. COLLINS: No but they come through another provincial agent.

This year,for the first time I believe 8 all of the applications from all of the groups, that is my understandingj all of the municipal applications come through my departrrent and I believe this year.for the first time,all of the other applications had to be sanctioned by some provincial - AN HON. MEMBER: Went direct to Halifax. MR. COLLINS: Yes but Halifax would not deal with them unless they were approved,! believe - MR. ROWE(W.N.): I know what the hon. minister is talking about. For exa.~ple CAUSA had to be consulted on all of them. For example,if there were a local group buildinp - HR. COLLINS: No. MR.

ROWE(YhN.): No. Well maybe the hon. member can explain what his side of the story is a bit later. MR. COLLINS: I know Halifax referred those back. MR. ROWE(W.N,): Yes, I know that I have had problems outside of municipalities where people, for example athletic associations applied directly to Halifax and then CAUSA were brought in on it and other agencies like that so although they might not have gone through some provincial agency to begin with 1 they were certainly brought into it at some point along the way. Well, you say 1,200, Mr. Chairman, the minister 963

Febr11arv 21, 1973 Tape 318 says 1,200 through his own department? }~".. ~GOLLI~~S: No, no that was from the province. HR. ROHE(H.N.): From the province. All right I ,iust wanted to get that clear. The minister says 250 are - MR. COLLINS: 220 or 230. MR. ROWE(T.J.N.): Hell, what I would like to ask. there is a lot of buck passim:: in this programme, back and forth, and it is not only the federal r,overn:T.ent who is to blame, the provincial government is to blame as well because - MR. COLLINS: No, no. JH - 2 ~:_ ROWE(tf.N.): Of course, they are, Mr. Chairman.

A municinnlitv, how many,for example,applications received from nunicipalities hy the minister's department are turned clown in the first instance? Verv many? MR. COLLINS: We turned down one application and we are takin~ care of that hopefully on another pro~ramrne. MR. ROWE(W.N.): One application, Nr. Chairman.

So what happens, hrre is the role now that I see the provincia] rovcrnment plav through its Department of Municipal Affairs, t see them being mf:.rely a conduit pipe whereby all these applications are received by Municipal Affoin; then they are just merely shcwelled up to Ottawa,with no scrutiny whatsoever. The minister snys one wns turned down. Is be trving to tell the committee that out of, I do not know how many his depnrtrnent receive from municipalities, 400 or 500 ,I would imaP,inc 1 because some municipalities had 200 or 300. Were there not 400 or 500 from St •. John's there, for example?

What the minister is saying, Sir, is that, well I infer from his remarks, that everythinr, received is passed on to Ottawa except for one,which was turned down. Now that must have been very bad,if it was turned down it must have been completely outside of the criteria altogether. 964

February 23, 1973 Tape 318 MR. NEARY: No, no. MR. ROWE(W.N.): Well, okay maybe it was not. I do not know anything about. Obviously the member for Bell Island is privy to all. :MR. NEARY: Yes, I know all about it. MR. ROWE(W.N.): But the point that I am trying to make is that the federal government, I think conscientiously. brings in a programme which is designed to alleviate unemployment and to try to put in some useful public services. I think I am being relevant, Mr. Chairman.

The provincial government which has to deal with Ottawa because the municipalities are not entities unto themselves. they cannot deal legally or constitutionally with Ottawa except through the provincial government. They are creators. The provincial govern,~ent 1 E role - MR. COLLINS: The hon. member said that. AN HOii. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROWE(W.N.): Yes~ that is right but I mean as far as the municipal governments are concerned the deal is - JH - 3 MR.

COLLINS: The only reason we look at them is in case there are any other implications which the province might be required to get involved in afterwards,but for all practical purposes the federal government deals with municipalities. MR. ROWE(W.N.): Right and as I understand it the municipal government, if it says no to a municjpality then the municipality,if they see fit, can then circumvent the provincial government completely and go direct to Halifax or to Ottawa. MR. COLLINS: Anyway this has no significance here;I do not think. MR.

CHAIRMAN: This matter and its association with the local initiatives programme could take us well into next week so - MR. ROWE(W.N.): Mr. Chairman. I asked the minister if--any part of this $500,000 was in respect of - MR. CO!.LI!lS: said no. - for the hon. member to ask a question, I could have 965

Fehru~,ry 23, 1973 Tnpe. 318 .JM - 4 MR. ROWE(W.N.): Well. okay he should have said no. I asked if I were relevant. 'Now I am preceeding on the assumntion that perhaps part of this is and I think it is an important point anyway and I will not keep the committee any longer except to ask this question. It seems to me that if the provincial government does not want anything to do with this, then they should wash their hands of it. They should say to the federal government, J!Federal govern.rnent, this is hrin!!ing us nothint; but niphtmares,therefore,let us get out of it.

You can do it directly if you want to." If they do in fact take on, if the provincial government take on the responsibility of supposedly vetting srine of these nunicipal projects which nre subr:1itted. 1 then I would submit 1 Sir, that they should do their Job. It seems to me,bv circumstantial evidence only,but it seems to me self-evident that if every application but one which is received by the Department of Municipal Affairs is shovelled off to Ottaua and then some of them are turned down and some of them accepted - ~_J!,9~ 7_J:!EHBE~~: (Inaudible). MR. ROWE(H.N.): AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

ROHE{W.N.): Well, what arc they then? We do no~ even f:O through - (Inaudible). HeJl, what is the point of it. Well, why does not the Department of Municipal Affairs say to the federal government, ''You are wasting the time of our officials and our ministers, forget ahout it coming- through Municipa 1 Affairs. 11 A.'Kl" HON. NF.~ffiER: (Inaudible). MR. ROWE(W.N.): That is rip:ht. I am aware of all of that, Hr. Chairman.

The point that I am saying is that the provincial p:overnment here comes out ,and the Minister of Finance has done this on occasion and I do not blame him for it, but he has come out on occasion sa.ying,!'He are ri?;ht on the hook. The federal govern,;ient puts us on the hook with regard to these LIP rirogrammes." When I would submit, Sir. that the provincial 96G

February 23, 1973 Tape 318 JM - 5 government is master of its fate to a certain extent and certainly if they excerised more scrutiny over some of these applications they would not find themselves afterwards getting into some of the binds that they do in fact get in by shovelling it all up to Ottawa, Ottawa approving some of them and then the municipality coming back on the provincial government for extra money and then a~~extra burden bein~ put on the provincial government. That is the only point! want to make and 1 think it ia a legitimate point.

I am sure that the Minister of Municipal Affairs agrees with me wholeheartedly. He would like to see the LIP programmes, I am sure, out of his department altogether so that he can spend more time concentrating on purely provincial issues and purely provincial responsibilities. Maybe he does not,I ,do not know, but it seems to me he should. MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing says that you approved 1,099 of these applications - MR. CHAIRMAN: If the hon. member would permit.

He interrupted the member for White Bay South on the matter of local initiative programmes in the Department of Municipal Affairs and it would be preferable if this debate did not continue into a protracted debate on its association with the Department of Municipal Affairs, We are dealinJ? with Head Xlll and supplementary supply and these items have been outlined. MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Chairman, I wish to make one short point unless you rule me out of order, of course. MR. CHAIR.l{AN: The member may make his point but please make it as quickly as possible. MR.

ROWE(F .B.)_: If I understand correctly~ the hon. the minister suggested that his department approved 1,199 out of 1,200 applications, all but one? MR. COLLINS: No, no. 1,250 applications submitted to Halifax from all over Newfoundland, all of the groups and individuals involved. Ours were probably about 200 or 300. 967

Pebru.1rv 21, 1973 Tape 31R JM - 6 J1R. ROi~(f>WB~ You had 200 or 300 come into the Department of Municipal Affairs and you approved all but one. MR. COLLI!'!~ I nm pretty sure they were all approved but one. MR.ROWE(F.B.): Did the hon. minister's department inform the municipalities involved that his department had approved these'!

Yes every one of then. t!,R, ROl~(F-·}L.j_: Hell, sureJv therein lies the reason why the provincin..l government would want to become involved in this because they simnlv write back to the municipal:.! ties involved and say that the provincial government has approved of these npnlicc1tions. They are sent off to the '"1ilinland,to the federal povernrrcnt~nnd some of then are turned down, there is a politi~al advantage to it. AN HO!i.:_ ,:!t}_!n!J!,: The fed I s nre bad boys. ~- NF':.{\.RYJ_ '.'-Ir.

Chairman, I think we arc nerfec.tly in order because the hon. minister has nlreadv stnted that he docs not know if there is anv LIP money in here or nt"lt. in these grants to councils. MR. -~0_½,1:!N5.: (Inaudible). !'.1!{_: .... J!~}!I.:.~ No, it ir. not n. point of order. MR. g__~Q__SBII,: On a point of order, I believe you have made n rulint that thifl is irrelevant to this <lef'atc so the hon. gentleman is out of order. t!!t~S,.!_1A.JJ!!'1:!t.l~:_..

The hon. memf'er for Bell Island will recall yesterday evenini:- 's nrotrncted dehate :i.nd the ruling raade nt that time concern:i.np: the hearl economic development. The Chair is prepared to hear arguments and make a suhsequent rulinp on this matter as well~if the hon. members insist on protracted dehate on this matter on which the Chair has already expressed its opinion that the irrelevance has rone on quite long enough. ~-!.-~ARY: It is not irrelevant bP.cause Your Honour was out of the House when the minister stated that the.re are $100,000 - 968

February 23, 1973 Tape 318 MR. CHAIRMAN: With the hon. member's permission, the Chairman was not out of earshot. MR. NEARY: Well, then Your Honour must have heard - MR. CROSBIE: To a point of order. MR. NEARY: I am speaking to the point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: Is the hon. gentleman appealing your ruling? MR. NF.ARY: No, I am speaking to the point of order. MR. CROSBIE: No, you are not speaking to any point of order, You have not made one. MR. NEARY: Sit down, sit down bully boy. JM - 7 MR. CROSBIE: The Chairman hi!ls made a ruling and if the hon. gentleman wants to appeal it,let him do so. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am speaking to a point of order. MR. CROSBIE: This is the same intolerable course as we had last niRht. MR. NEARY: Sit down bully boy. MR, CROSBIE: Obstruction of the business of the House and that is all it is. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chainnan, I am speaking to the point of order. MR. CROSBIE: There is no point of order. You were overruled. Now are you appealing the ruling? MR. NEARY: Sir, to my knowledge, Mr. Chairman, the minister stated that there was $300,000 grants to municipalities and he was asked a question by my colleague 969

February 23 1 1973 Tape no, 319 Page l - MRW MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairmanj obviously the minister does not have any information. _MR. COLLINS; On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, this is a lot of nonsense. Let us face it! MR. ROBERTS: To the point of order, Mr. ChnirmanJ - MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chaiw..an, the point of order is this: l have read this three times~ Everybody agreed to it~ until the Leader of the Opposition comes in now with something on Buchana. I do not have a list of all the municipalities. I did tell the honourable member that I would undertake to get it for him, That is all I can do. MR, ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, if the honourable gentleman - the point is that he is coming before this committee looking for $500,000 and does not have the information. That is fine. The evidence will speak for itself. Now he mentioned that the increased revenue grants account for part of the expenditure which he is requesting from the committee nD'W'~ I did hear him correctly I believe. Would he be good enough to tell you, please, when the grants were increased? MR. COLLINS: MR. ROBERTS: How many times have I given that answer already? I do not know! You have not given it to me. MR. COLLINS: Yes I did! MR.

ROBERTS: Tne honourable minister has not given it to me. Mr. Chairmant the honourable gentleman does not have to tell us but could he tell us. It seems like a rather relevant, reasonable question. I have heard of arrogance~ MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the grants will be made available to the municipalities and as far as I knou, this year. They were not shown in last year's or this year's estimates. MR. ROBERTS: When were they increased? I know they have been increased. I would like to know when they were increased? What date? What was the order-in-council or the other authority? That is what 9 7 0

February 23, 1973 Mr~ Roberts I want to know. Tape no. 319 Page 2 MR~ COLLINS: There is an order-in-council but I do not have it with me. I do not know the date on it. MR~ ROBERTS: Let me take it a step further, Mr. Chairman. This subhead 1311-03-02 was shown as Local Councils, $2.79 millions requested, approved in the main supply bill, we are now up an extra $500,000 and the minister gives as part of his reason for this, the increased revenue grants. That is fair enough.

I mean the revenue grants are automatic in the sense if a municipality raises revenue, the government matches according to the formula and the government changed the formuln before the March election, before these estimates were prepared and I wonder if the minister would tell us why it has now exceeded that? There may well be a perfectly obvious reason but all I would like to know is knO'w it. That is all I am asking. There is no answer. If the minister has no answer,then I am forced to the conclusion that the estimates are false, that the estimates were understated, that is the point.

These are a fairly predictable expenditure. MR. COLLINS: What has the hon. Leader of the Opposition got against municipalities? We circulated a book.let last week and he went beserk. Are you against us giving them anything? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order - may I ask what relevance that point (if it is a point) has to this'? I asked "the honourable minister a question arising out of 1311-03-02. The minister drags himself in and ask for an extra $500,000, an extra $500,000, not chicken feed, not worth arguing about. MR. CROSllit: Chicken feed compared with the past. MR. ROBERTS; Right!

Chicken feed compared to the future. MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: 971 (Inaudible). Sure!

February 23, 1973 Tape no.319 Page 3 Mr. Roberts. Would Your Honour enforce the relevance of the hon, gentleman from St. John's West or are the rules one-sided? Can he get away with it. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes! MR. ROBERTS: Yes, now they have let the cat out of the bag, the bus contractor. MR. OTTENllEIMER: Mr~ Chairman, point of privilege. MR. COLLINS: Point of privilege, Mr. Chairman. MR. OTTENJIEIMER: Mr~ Chairman, point of privilege, I submit that references or rhetorical questions to the effect; are the rules for one side or the other, are quite out of order.

TI1ey impugn the impartiality of the Chair and would make any sensible debate in this House impossible. I suggest that the privilege of the House is at stake here, Hr. Chairman, when any honourable member says or suggests in statement or rhetorical question; are the rules only for one side? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, to that point, there was no intention on my part to impugn Your Honour's impartiality and if there were any words used that gave Your Honour that impression (I do not care about the impression the hon.member for St.

Mary's got but 1 do care about the impression Your Honour has) then, of course, 1 amend them or withdraw them whatever is necessary. What I did say was that the hon. Minister of Finance seems to feel that the rules do not apply to him, that he is the one, when anybody efse strays from the straight and narrow, gets up and calls Your Hbnour's attention to it and yet when he gets up~ he feels that the rules do not apply to him~ Of course, we are learning a little about Jovial John these days~ Now as I was saying - MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable gentleman has expressed himself from a point of order and I can reply. The honourable gentleman is deliberately filibustering this Supplementary Supply Bill* 972

February 23, 1973 Tape no. 319 Page 4 MR. ROBERTS: No! MR. CROSBIE: And every means within his power for the last day and a half and contemptuously continues. No wonder tempers are getting short~ The questions are irrelevant. The estimates will be coming befcire this House,