First Session -Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under tlze authority of Tlze Honourable George Jlickes Speaker Vol. L No. 29- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 17,2000 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, lion. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Bon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

12 05 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 17,2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Daniel Bean, Kelly Guillas, Chris Lovett and others praying that the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba request that the Mini ster of Justice encourage the Government of Manitoba to continue partnering with schools and law enforcement to ensure Winnipeg Police Athletic Clu bs provide recreational and athletic activities for young people in a safe, supervised environ­ ment in 13 schools throughout Winnipeg for years to come. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the following reports.

All have been previously distributed. The Quarterly Financial Reports, three months, six months and nine months; the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board Quarterly Report for the six months ending September 30. 19 99; the Preliminary Financial Report year ending March 31, 19 99; the Provincial Auditor's Report on the Audit of the Public Accounts for the year ending March 31 , 19 97; and the Provincial Auditor's Report on the Operation of the Office of the Provincial Auditor for the year ending 19 98. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Question Period, I would like to draw the atten tion of all honour­ able members to the gallery where we have from Ralph Maybank School 20 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Vivian Fogarty and Mr. Ron Rivers. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Sm ith). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Budget Income Tax Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): Yesterday in this House the Mini ster of Fi nance continued to avoid any direct comparisons when it comes to personal income taxes.

We have run a number of examples which clearly show that Manitobans are paying more in personal income tax today than they were on May 10 , budget day. Obviously the Minis ter of Fi nance accelerated the separation of the tax systems between the federal and provincial systems to hold onto taxes, thereby denying Manitobans tax reductions that other Canadians are receiving today. Will the Minis ter of Finance confirm that Manitobans are paying higher personal income taxes this year after the introduction of his budget than they were before May 10 of this year? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): will once again reiterate that we have passed through to Manitobans the 10 percent base improvements announced in the federal budget. We have, in addition, introduced in Manitoba a property tax credit which leaves Manitobans $7 million better off this year. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, all we are looking for from this minis ter is a yes or a no answer, just to acknowledge the truth as it relates to income taxes here in the province of Manitoba. He can surely run the numbers; his officials can run the numbers. Accountants across Manitoba are running the numbers today.

I will ask him again, just answer a yes or a no. That is all we want to hear, the answer yes or no to the simple question: Are Manitobans paying higher per-

12 06 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 2000 sana! income taxes today as a result of the Bu dget that he brought down on May 10 of this year than they were on budget day and for all of those days leading up to May 10 of this year? * (13: 35) Mr. Selinger: No question, Manitobans are better off after our budget than they were before it. They will be receiving property tax reductions. The small business community will be receiving a small business tax reduction. In addition, we have delivered on our promise of a property tax credit. Many people have received that in the mail as recently as this week. Mr.

Stefanson: Well, the fact that the Minis ter will not answer the question I think clearly indica tes that the answer to the question is, yes. Manitobans are paying higher taxes today than they were on May 10 of this year be tore he brought down his budget. I ask him one more question on taxes. In terms of defining who is middle income. why has this Minis ter of Finance provided a much more narrow category of approximately $30,000 to $60,000 when our neighbour in Saskatchewan is using a middle-income definition of between $35 ,000 and $1 00,000?

Why has he created such a narrow definition in Manitoba compared to other jurisdictions in Canada? Mr. Selinger: The Member opposite seems to be caught in some time shifting. Our tax benefits for Manitobans this year are very favourab le compared to Saskat chewan. I note yesterday in the House that he indica ted a senior citizen would be paying fewer tax es. My information has it that a senior citizen in the year 2000 pays $2 13 fewer taxe s, a single senior at $20,000.

A single senior citizen in the year 200 1 will be paying $16 7 fewer taxes, and the same single senior citizen in the year 2002 will be paying $13 6 less tax- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Stefanson: The Minis ter of Finance is obviously reading from a document that I am sure has been prepared by Finance officials which I am sure all Manitobans would like to have the benefit of seeing, and I ask him simply to table that document here in the House today. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Deputy Govern­ ment House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon.

Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the Minis ter was doing actual ly very similar to what the Member for Kirkfield Park was doing, which was reading items into the record. The Member for Kirkfield Park should know that there is absolutely no requirement for this minis ter any more than that member to tab le notes. In fact, I believe he is confusing their provisions here in terms of the information that has been provided with reading from letters. The Minis ter was not reading from letters.

He was reading into the record material which, by the way, is in the Budget, which is already public information. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order, it is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister of Finance, to conclude his answer. Mr. Selinger: I will just call to the attent ion of the Member opposite C I 0 in the taxa tion adj ustments which show that, under our new scheme of taxa tion, a single senior will have a combined tax credit and tax reduction which is 25 percent more generous than this year. Thank you. Budget Communi cation Costs Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, last week this government brought down a budget which has been resoundingly criticized by business, universities and Manitoba taxpa yers. It appears this government and the Minister of Finance have been surprised by the backlash he has received from Manitobans now living in the highest-taxed province in Canada. Will the Minis ter of Finance today confirm that his department spending on media and

May 17 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 07 mailing in trying to promote this fledgling budget is simply NDP damage control at the expense of Manitoba taxpayers? * (1 3:40) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Spea ker, our budget has been extremely well received by Manitobans, and we will continue to make our best efforts to communi cate to them accurate informa tion about the positive effect of this budget. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minis ter of Fi nance tell the House how much Manitoba taxpayers are on the hook for the NDP's attempt to sell this tax-and-spend budget, something they told us not to do? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I would be happ y to table with the House the cost of the Budget prepara tion exercise, but I can assure the Member opposite it will be far less than what they did last year. Mr. Jim Penner: A supplem entary to the same mini ster, Mr. Spea ker.

Wi ll the Minis ter tell us, given the principle of truth in advertising we have in our country, when the ads telling Manitobans they are the highest-taxed residents in all of Canada will be running? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the Member opposite, when he properly reads the Bu dget, will realize that the statement he made is highly inaccurate and that Manitobans remain among the most aff ordable with respect to taxes and prov incial levies and that Manitoba remains one of the most aff ordable pla ces to live.

In add ition, when he studies the Budget caref ully, he will notice, through our new tax system, that the fam ily tax reduction will reduce the shamef ul level of taxa tion on fam ilies with incomes of $60,000 from the high levels that it was under under the previous regime down to a much lower level in the next couple of years. Education System Special Needs Funding Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Spea ker, program s that provide special ized servi ces to students who are visually or hearing impa ired are a valued component of our educational system.

Ensuring these students have equal access to a quality education is critical to their long-term success. Can the Minis ter of Education explain the 26% fu nding cut to these program s, as noted on page 58 in Estima tes of Expenditure? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Spea ker, I am always pleased when the Member for Fort Ga rry gets up to read her prepared questions. On this matter, as in all matters in terms of education in the public school sector, the Province of Manitoba, the Government of Manitoba is comm itted to providing increased resources through time.

The Healthy Child Initia tive addresses very di rectly the very real needs, as the Member indicates, of those Manitobans who have special circumstances in terms of their educati on. We are comm itted as a government to working with our partners in the public education system to provide the best quality education to the young people of Manitoba. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Spea ker, I am very pleased to hear that the Minis ter of Education is very concerned about the specialized program s that we have in Manitoba.

Very specifically, I am wondering if he coul d explain the 26% funding cut to these programs, as noted on page 58 in Estima tes of Expenditure. Could the Minis ter answer that question, please? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Spea ker, I am very happy that the Member is advocating for increased expenditures in educa tion. I value that sort of criticism or that sort of advocacy from the members opposite. Ou r commitment is to deliver effici ently, with the soundest business principles, education to the child ren of Manitoba. That is the way we will proceed in the future. Mrs.

Smith: My question was not about my attitu d e about education and its need for fu nding. My question to the Mini ster of Education is: Could he please explain the 26% funding cut to the programs for visually or hearing impa ired

12 08 LEG I SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 2000 students, as noted on page 58 in Estima tes of Expenditure? Mr. Caldwell: The Member's attitude toward education is well articula ted through arti cles such as in the Selkirk Journal last month talking about apologies- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Spea ker. Beauchesne's 417: "Answers to questio ns should be as brief as possible" - he has hit that poi nt right- "deal with the matter rais ed"-he is fa r of f on that- "a nd should not provoke debate." Mr.

Speaker, all the question sai d was can he explain the 26% fu nding cut to educatio n fo r the physically handicapped. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Government House Leader, on the same poin t of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, I know the Opposition loves the sound of their questio ns. Unfortunately, they also have to have answers. There was no answer that was even yet given. He ju st began to answer the questio n. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order, the Honourable Minis ter was ju st getting into his answer, and I would ask the Honourab le Min ister to please continue with the answer ,. * * Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member opposite made reference to her attitude toward educa tion. The Member opposite is the author of a book entitled Lies My Kid's Teacher Told Me, and there are other issues about the Member's attitude toward education she made reference to.

I thought I would put that on the record, as it was put in her question. * (13: 45) In regard to the budget figures that the Member is referring to, she is obviously mis ­ reading the budget figures in that the 26% cut is to the total School Programs budget and is not articula ted, directed or anywhere connected to a cut of that magnitude to any program for deaf or handicapped students. Concordia Hospital Oncology Department-Capital Funding Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Mr.

Spea ker, I would like to congratulate the Premier for his announcement, the night before the Budget. at the Concordia Hospital Fundrai sing Di nner that the capital dolla rs for the move of the oncology program and departm ent would be provi ded for when the Bu dget was announced. I ju st want to ask the Minis ter of Hea lth to confir m whether the money was in the Bu dget that was tabled on May 10 for the new oncology department at Concordia Hospital. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Spea ker, I am quite pleased to have the oppor tuni ty to answer a question on the Health budget in this Chamber.

I would lik e to advise members that we worked long and hard with respect to the Bu dget in dealing with the serious deficit that was left over for us by the previous government in order to try to get in place a proper financial system and planning process for the next year so organizat ions can- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. "(13:50) Mr" Chomiak: -provide the quality care that is requir ed. The Member referenced the comments by the Premier. There is tremendous good news in a lot of areas with respect to this budget respecting Health.

The announcements of the capital projects will be forthcoming. Mrs. Mitchelson: Gi ven the Premier did announce that there would be money in the capital budget, some $600,000 in the capital budget. that Concordia would need to build a new oncology departm ent, I just want to ask again , because I am not sure that the answer was

May 17, 2000 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 12 09 clear: Wa s the money, the $600,000, for the oncology departm ent at Concordia Hosp ital part of the Bu dget that was tabled on May 1 0? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I am confused by a member who was a former minis ter, who under­ stands there are operating dolla rs and there are capital dolla rs. We have announced the budget with respect to health care. The Premier did announce that there would be prov ision mad e for the oncology expansion at Concordia Hospital.

There are operating dolla rs attach e d to that and there are capital dolla rs attached to that, and the capital announcements are forthcom ing. Health Care Facilities Capital Programs Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Gi ven that Concordia Hospital has already received the good news that the money is in the Budget for capital and operating for th e oncology depart­ ment at Concordia Hospital, will the Minister of Health now ta ble the total capital budget so that other regional health author ities and other hospitals in Manitoba know, as well as Con­ cordia, that they can go ahead with their mu ch­ needed capital pro jects? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Spea ker, during the seven years that I was the critic for Health, I saw capital budgets that we re tabled two days before the end of the session, I saw capital budgets that were table d in the middle of the campaign, but every tim e there was an election, I saw capital budgets that came out right off the bat from members opposite. We are trying to go systemati cally through the Bu dget. We came in halfw ay through a budgetary year. We went through the operating budget; we tabled it.

We are also systematicall y going through the capital budget, something that was not properly done by members opposite in last year's election year. The Budget will be tabled forthcoming with respect to capital . Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for River East, on a new question? Point of Order Mrs. Mitchelson: No, on a point of order. Mr . Spea ker. I think that the Minis ter of Health should be honest and up front with all­ [interjection} Mr. Speaker: Orde r, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: Th ank you, Mr. Spea ker.

I am real ly pl eased that Concordia Hospital, the community hospit al for both the Prem ier (Mr. Doer) and I, has received the much-needed news about the capital construction. I would only hope that the Mini st e r of Health would af ford the sa me opp ortunity to ever y hospital throughout the province. Mr. Speaker: Order, plea se. I would ask the co­ operation of all honourab le members, because a po int of order is a very serious matter. The Honourable Minis ter of Health, on the same po int of order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the Member's point of order was.

I think it was an anem pt to get a po int in. But I would lik e to poin t out, with respe ct to that point of order, for the fir st tim e in a decade hospitals and all the institutions received their bu dget in advance, and for the fir st time we have put proper financial inf orm ati on out. It has been recognized in the comm unity, and the same thing will happen with a properly looked at capital budget, something that wa s not done by me mbers opposite for a decade . Mr. Speaker: Order, please. l have li stened to both points of order, and I would like to remind the House about the purpose of poin ts of order.

A po int of order is used to draw to the Spea ker's attention any departure from the rules or practices of the House or to raise concerns about unpa rlia mentary language. A point of order should not be used to ask a question, dispu te the accu racy of fac ts, to cla rify remarks which have been mi squoted or mi sunderstood, to move a motion, to raise a po int of order on a point of order. I would ask al l honourable members for their fu ll co-operation, plea se. Mrs. Mitchelson: I just wanted to say sorry. Mr. Spea ker.

1210 LEG IS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA May 17, 2000 Mr. Speaker: I thank the Honourable Member for that. * (13: 55) Cancer Treatment Bed Availability Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): On May I 0, I brought forward to the Minis ter of Health information concerning a constituent of mine who is currently receiving cancer treatment at the Health Sciences Centre. Frequently. beds are not avai lable, and she is forced to go to a hotel during her recovery period. I provided the Minis ter of Health with that informa tion. I gave him the name after Question Period.

She also has on file letters to the Minis ter and the Premier (Mr. Doer). The Minis ter at that time said that he would respond forthwith. I spoke with this constitu ent over the noon hour. She has yet to hear from anyone in the Minis ter's office. Why has the Minis ter of Health fai led to address this si tuation forthwith as promised? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Obviously , every case is very im port ant to members on this side of the House, and we try to follow up.

There is a procedure that always takes place in this Chamber with respect to follow-up. and there was a follow-up on this and numerous other notices. I am happy to actu ally deal with all of them while I am on my feet. Wi th respect to the par ticular incident thar the Member mentioned, and I will not mention the individu al' s name, we understand it is difficult to travel to and from Wi nnipeg. I understand she was advised to contact the director of nursing at CancerCare Manitoba. These concerns were discussed, appar ently, with the physician on the oncology team.

It was also suggested that there are chem otherapy treat­ ments available in Neepawa now and was advised of the option to have treatment closer to home. Also, a ref erral has been made with respect to home care and a comp lete home care assessment with respect to her needs. So there was follow-up. I mi ght add, Mr. Speaker, since we came into of fice the number of treatm ents of fered has been expanded and the number of beds ex­ panded. Wh ile I am on my feet, perhaps I should deal with- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Gilleshammer: The Minis ter is indi cating there has been consi derable follow-up.

There has been no contact with this individual. She is scheduled to come into Wi nnipeg next week. She is expecting that her treatment will be made, and she has to stay again in a hotel, a place where the IV is discontinued. This not only aff ects the level of treatment she is getting, it also aff ects the recovery period. No contact has been made with this indiv idual since I raised this question in the House or since she has written a letter to the Minister. I would ask the Minis ter to take this case seriousiy . Mr. Chomiak: As I indica ted, we do take all the cases seriously.

I have been concerned because there have been inaccura cies in matters that have been referred to by members opposite, which means we must deal with them very caref ully so that we deal with them properly. I will have another look at this case in regard to this. But I will again reiterate, the Department, the same officials, provided me the information that I indica ted earlier, that there was contact with respect to the possibil ity of other options avai labl e.

Reference has been made to home ca re mig ht add, for the assurance of all members in the House, one of the reasons that we put in pla ce our critical shortages fund with respect to cancer care was to allow the waiting lists to shorten in Manitoba. They were the longest-they were beyond, in fa ct, clinical guid elines. We put that in place. The waiting lists have gone down dramati cally as a result. We have expanded the number of treatm ents avai lable. As in all cases, there are situations where things do not work out perfectly, and I will endeavour to do additional follow-up with regard to this case. Mr.

Gilleshammer: I would urge the Mini ster not to blame his officials for this. She has written to him directly on this issue. There is a

May 17,2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1211 sense of urgency here to the extent where she is considering not going for her last treatment. I would ask him to make that contact today. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker , the Member knows that when he passed on the name we immedia tely took a response. I have indica ted a response here. Members of this Chamber know that all matters of care are taken very seriously.

All memb ers , when we were in opposition and they were in government, to make the claim that the matter is not followed up, I think is something that-well, it is not something that I would say. * (14:00) Mani toba Lotteries Corporation Provincial Auditor's Report Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question is for the Premier.

Given the scathing indictment of executive pract ices at the Mani­ toba Lotteries Corporation by the Provincial Auditor and given the Premier's suggestion yesterday that the publicly appointed board seemed to have some knowledge of the circum­ stances and clea rly did not provide an example of best board pract ices, what is the Premier doing to ensure that the former board members of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation are held accountable for their lack of oversight? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, yes­ terday, in statements made by members of the Board, it was indica ted that they had in fa ct communi cated some of the cost changes. In fa ct, I think the statement was made that the original proposal was not $50 mill ion, as communica ted in this House a couple of years ago, but it was rather well over $65 milli on, which of course took away the alleged option on a downtown relocation as opposed to the two suburban relocations. So it appears that the situation of some of the cost overruns, what the public knew and what the Boa rd knew and what was com­ munica ted in this Chamber were at variance .

I think ultima tely those of us in government must take responsibility when a pro ject is communi cated by a member of Cabinet to be a cost of $50 million and ultima tely comes in at $112 mil lion. The buck ultimately , with that kind of variance , rests here. Mr. Gerrard: Since this is more than just cost overruns-it is about good corporate pract ices of publicly appointed boards, I ask the Premi er, yes or no, whether he has examined whether there has been a simila r fai lure to follow good best pract ices by other publicly appointed boards in Manitoba. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Spea ker, I think the first day, when the report was tabled on Mon day, I indica ted to the Member oppos ite that the ex­ treme situations we found at the Lotteries Corporation that were arti cula ted by the Auditor in our first six months in of fice are the exception rather than the rule with other Crown cor­ pora tions. What action did we take? We did replace the former board with a new board. On that board I believe there are three members of the accounting prof essi on and there are various comm i ttees being established by the new board chair.

Measures were announced yesterday by the Minis ter and the new Chair of the Boa rd of the Lo tteries Corpora tion. I also feel that Mr. Hodgins, a person who has worked with members opposite and ourselves, has a very strong reputation on both sides of this aisle, and I trust that he, along with the Board of Di rectors and the Minis ter, will provide the kind of certainty of numbers, certainty of predictions and integrity of public service so necessary in a Crown corpora tion. Mr. Gerrard: My supplemen tary to the Premier.

Given the extreme cir cumstances which you referred to and yet the fa ct that the former CEO of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation has publicly called the whole Singleton report ludicrous. inacc urate and misl eading, I ask the Premi er: Does he not believe it is time now to call a fu ll public inqu iry to get to the bottom of this matter so the people can really know what happened? Mr. Doer: I think I had this question yesterday or I raised the issue yesterday, and I commented on this issue in th e hallway. I think Mr. Funk's statements about the Auditor are very unfor­ tunate.

The Auditor had been appointed by the previous government. It certainly was concurred, his appoin tment, and his recommendation to be appointed was , as is the tradition in this House, agreed upon by other parties at the time.

1212 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2000 The process of selecting the Provincial Auditor is a non-partisan process. The Provincial Auditor sometimes produces reports that we like in this Chamber, and sometimes he presents news that we have to manage. For any senior public employee or former senior public employee to accuse the Auditor of having an agenda I think is very unfortunate. We may disa gree with the Auditor from time to time, but the findings are completely independent of politics and completely independent of this Chamber.

They have theref ore the integrity of the Office of the Provincial Auditor. On the matter of the inquir y, we feel that the audit report raises a number of the is sues that we hav e to manage. We believe that the ulti mate accountab il ity rests with the Government, the Board and the executiv es as they have been articul ated in the report. The police are now investigating a part of the report. At this poi nt. we are not going to appoint a public in quir y. Physician Resources Pediatric Neurologists Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Sp eaker, the Member for Riv er East (Mrs.

Mitchelson) had talked about a sit uation of a child regarding-! think the Member said pedia tric - Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Are you respo n­ ding to a question that you took as notice? Mr. Chomiak: Yes. The Member for River East had asked a question about pedia tric neurolo­ gists. She meant urologists, and so I look ed it up. I can confirm that the indiv idual in questi on, the daughter in question, had seen the pediatric urologist on April 4 and a follow-up appoint­ ment is scheduled in that par ticular instance.

There w as also a confusion with respect to the letter that I had drafted that I spoke privately with the Member about, and I can indi cate there is also a recruitment going on in this area. Pediatric Nephrologists Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Can I do another- An Honourable Member: As notice. Mr. Chomiak: -a s notice, Mr. Speaker, while I am up? Thank you. The Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) suggested Manitoba requires four pedia tric nephrologists. I am advised the depart­ ment head of pediatrics stated that Manitoba currently requires a fu ll complement of three.

There is currently a recruitment for nephrolo­ gists going on. For many years in Manitoba we only had one, but there is recruitment in this regard. Radiation Therapy Foreign-Trained Technicians Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): have another- Mr. Speaker: Very quickly. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. The Member for Riv er East (Mrs. Mitchelson) asked a question about foreign radiation technologis ts and therapists. Wi th regard to radiation therapi sts, seven have been hired from South Africa and employed by CancerCare Manitoba.

Under pro vincial legisla tion, neither MAMRT nor CAR met the certification required for radiati on therapists to work in Manitoba. However, emplo yers require their radiation therapists to be nationally certified. All seven of the South African radiation therap ists hired by Ca ncerCare Manitoba have elected to write the national certification examination within one year. In fac t, several have been preparing to write the exam this September.

At the time of contact, all South Af rican radiation therap ists hi red by CancerCare graduated at a time when we had reciprocity wit h South African educational institutions, and we recognized their trai ning program s as equiv alent to Ca nadian standards. Thank you. Selkirk Mental Health Centre Nursing Shortage Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Last weekend, due to a critical shortage of nurses, the Selkirk mental health fac il ity was forced to close its mental health crisis unit, and it may be forced to close this unit again this week if it does not get more nurses.

May 17, 2000 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1213 Mr. Spea ker, di scharging patients because there are not enough nurses to staff the crisis unit is extremely dangerous for patients. Can the Minis ter of Health promise Selkirk residents that their award-w inning health cri sis unit will have the nurses that it needs to remain operating? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Spea ker, I thank the Member fo r that question.

As the Member mig ht know, we had a simila r sit uation with respect to the Sara Riel in Wi nnipeg which closed very often over the past two years, and we were able to resolve that issue. It is a dif ficult issue with respect to nurses. As you know, the previous government laid off a thousand nurses and had no plan whatsoever to deal with nurses. Coming into government. fortunate that we have a nursing si tuation-! can advise the Member that there are contingencies in pl ace to deal with those residents. We are actively pursuing options in that regard.

Let it be clea r that we want to offer the services, and the services will be avai lable. It is a difficu lt problem because of the lack of nurses, but we are doing everything we can to ensure that those residents have the type of service they require. * (14:1 0) Mr. Helwer: Mr. Speaker, wi ll the Minis ter of Hea lth please provide this House with some pla n that he has to address the health care issue m Selkirk? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker , that was one of the reasons why the first few months in office we announced a comprehensive five-point nursing plan, which unfortunately members opposite are not supporting.

That is unfortunate. Wi th respect to the Selkirk situation, and it is simila r in other commun ity-based fa cil ities, we do fa ce a challenge with respect to the wages differential, as well as the working conditions that have been very dif ficult over the years, built up over I 0 years of neglect by the previous adm inistrati on. We are trying to deal with the Selki rk situation. We have a plan with respect to the Selkirk situa tion. It is an organized attempt to try to deal with the wage issue and try to maintain nurses there.

I can assure the Member that we have individ ua ls who are addressing that situation to tr y to ensure a permanent solution to that par ticula r si tuati on. Mr. Helwer: Mr. Spea ker, because some patients have already been di scharged due to the shortage of nurses. will the Minis ter tell us where these patients should go to get the treatment that they need? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Spea ker, that is a good question. I can advise the Member that there are options in pla ce with respect to those parti cula r pa tients.

The crisis stabiliz ation units have been notifi ed and are prepared, as well as making extra space available in other fa cil ities for these patients. So provision has been made for patient care. The overall issue is ver y dif ficult because the shortage of nurses is an acute problem, but I do want to assure members that we have improved the situati on. Is it perfect? No. Are there difficulties? Yes, but we are trying to address them over our term in office. La st year on today's date there were 17 pe ople in the hall ways of Manitoba 's hospital s. Brandon Mental Health Centre Future Development Mr.

Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Sp eaker, despite growing interest in the Brandon Mental Health Centre grounds and a number of pla ns fo r the fa cilit y and surrounding 320 hectares of land, the City of Brandon is once again less than satisfied with this government and their lack of interest. Can the Minis ter of Government Services explain why this government will not lis ten to the Minis ter of Educa tion's (Mr. Caldwell) wishes and transfer the whole package to the City of Brandon? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Government Services): Mr.

Spea ker, in fa ct, I assume the Member opposite is getting his in-depth research fr om the weekend arti cles in The Brandon Sun. I think, if the Member opposite had talked to a number of the people involved from Brandon, from the City, he would have found that, since

1214 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2000 com i ng to office, we have not only responded to the City of Brandon, we have di scussi ons on­ goi ng right now, and I am actually caut io usly opti mi sti c that thi s government wi ll be able to reach an agreement that is not only in the best interests of Brandon, because that is our concern, but also the taxpayers, the people of Man it oba. We are mak i ng progress. Mr. Tweed: We are talk in g to the people of Brandon, and it is the reporters that are say ing that you refuse to talk to them .

If the Gov ern­ ment is not wi llin g to im plement the Educ ati on Mi nister's pla n, what are thei r intentio ns regardi ng the development of BMHC ? Mr. Ashton: If the Member had read the weekend Brandon Sun, he would have not iced that in fa ct I di d talk to the reporter and indi cated we are ca uti ously opt imi stic. We made pr ogress in the di scussi ons. But I do want to in di cate, Mr. Spea ker, unlike members op p osi te. we have no intenti on of negotia ti ng in pu blic . We wi ll try and negotia te what is in the best interests of Brandon, Westman and also the pe opl e of Manit oba. Mr.

Tweed: With the constructio n season up on us, I plea d to the Mi nister to ma ke thi s is sue a pri ori ty wi th thi s government so the Ci t y ot Brandon can move forward wi th it s pl ans Mr. Ashton: I think the Member op posi te snow s a mi sunderstandi ng of the si tua ti on. Fi rst of al l. in terms of any development, that wi ll be somethin g between the Ci ty and develope rs whic h it has selected. But we hav e mad e proposals to the Ci ty. We hav e di scussio ns on­ goi ng currently. We are ma ki ng progress.

We are caut io usly opt imi stic , and I look forward to hopef ully being able to conclude aJl agreement wi th the Ci ty of Brandon because we do beli eve there is a real oppor tunity here for the Ci ty of Brandon and a deal. I want to assure the Member oppos it e it wi ll be a deal that is also in the interests of the people of Mani toba. Thompson Hospital Nursing Shortage Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): My questi on is to the Mi nister of Health who durin g the electio n campa i gn made many outlandi sh prom i ses to Man i tobans, and si nce that ti me he has fo und that the challenges of hi s prom i ses are a li ttle more than he can handle, and he contin ues to bla me the former government for things. The hospit al in Thompson is presently in urgent need of nurses, as many other hospit als are. and it is in the process of cl osi ng down beds because it is in need of 17 nurses.

The nursi ng shortage is clea rly becomi ng a very chron i c situati on in our provi nce, and th i s is not unli ke it is in other juris di ctio ns. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Spea ker, thi s is a ser io us ma tter and certain ly one that nurses and hospi tals across thi s provi nce want an answer to. I would li ke to ask the Mi nister of Health what he is goi ng to do in terms of bein g able to recruit enough nurses into Thompson Hospit al so that those si x beds can be reopened im medi ately. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): The Thom p son Hospi tal is planning a temporary closure due to lack of nurses, si mi lar to what they di d last year and pr evious years. But on the la rger is sue of nurses, that is why we announced a fiv e-po int pian. I am gla d that the Member opp osite has recognized the Tory nursing shortage. Three years ago, when I stood up on that si de of the House and said we have a chroni c nursing problem, members oppos ite would not take notic e, would not do anything.

Fi nally, we hav e a fiv e-poi nt plan, and, as part of that fiv e-poi nt plan. for the first ti me we are puttin g fu nding into the RHAs in the amount of $3 mi llio n for retrai ning and retain ing nurses, whic h is the cruci al issue. We have an acti ve recruit ment campa ig n. Mr. Derkach: These hollow promi ses of the Mi nister are of little comf ort to the people in Manit oba. I would li ke to ask the Mi nister di rectly: When wi ll the si x hospit al beds be reopened in Thompson? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, wi th respect to Thompson, there is a nursing shortage, and as a

May 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1215 result there is going to be a temporary clos ure of beds until the nursing sit uation is rectified, not unsimilar to what happened last year and previous years, except that this year we have an active plan in pla ce, a comprehensive pla n fo r the first time in this province to not just train and retain nurses but to attract nurses where we can. * (14: 20) I am confident that, as we move through this Tory nursing crisis, we will be able to maintain and retain nurses here in Manitoba so that the patients can have the beds.

I wish members opposite would support us in our initiatives to train nurses under the diploma program and not do everything they can to block that program , because it is in the interests of the bedside patients who require those nurses. Mr. Speaker: Time fo r Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Killarney Grain-Growing Project Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr . Spea ker, I would like to acknowledge the good work done by the Kil larney Community Grain­ Growing Project which in the past fo ur years has generated more than $400,000 in fo od aid fo r the world's hungry.

Since the project was fo rmed in 1996, it has contributed an annual average of $20, 15 0 in grain and cash donations to the Canadian Foodgrains Bank. Under a government fu nding agreement, the Canadian International Development Agency matches donations to the Canadia n Foodgrains Bank at a ratio of 4 to 1. Those matching funds have infla ted the Kil larney Community Grain-Grow ing Project ' s contributions to a total of $402,800.

The Community Grain-Growing Proj ect relies on donated inputs and field operations to grow crops that help feed the world's needy, and it is heartening to see how generous people have been in donating land, seed and time towards this valuable project. The Killa rney Community Grain-Growing Project is one of 21 such com­ munity partnerships in Manitoba. All of these projects are making a signi ficant diff erence in people's lives and have proven to be a pract ical way fo r producers to share their harvests with the world's less fortunate.

I would like to con­ gratulate all those involved in these types of projects fo r sharing their bounty with others. Thank you. Organized Crime Initiatives Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Mr. Spea ker, today, I rise in recognition and support of our government's new five-point strategy to comba t organized crime and improve neighbour­ hood safety. Yesterday we announced fu nding of $1. 4 milli on to target high-risk offenders and help elim inate gang activity. Community security will be im proved with the creation of a Criminal Organi zat ion and High Risk Violent Offender Unit.

The unit will work in co­ operation with police agencies and security officers to more closely monitor criminal activ ity. A new RCMP gang awar eness unit will fu rther monitor gang ac tivities in our rural and northern communities. Along with increased fu nding fo r policing and prosecution, we have taken a proact ive approach with the announce­ ment of a community partnership plan. Com­ munity representatives will meet this fa ll to develop co-ordinated, culturally appropriate rehabili tation services fo r offenders.

Addition­ ally, a Take Action in Schools program will place officers in cl assrooms to educate students about the risk of g<mg activity and drug act ivity. CHOICES Youth Program has success fu lly helped youth develop confidence and life skills in the past . We have added a Restorative Approaches Initia tive to this program to teach conflict resolution, mediation and anger manage­ ment skills. Parents and fa milies also need the necessary tools to fa cil itate open dialog ue on the lure of gang activity. A new website and gang awareness manual will help keep parents info rmed.

We acknowledge the need to assist parents by providing positive activities and increased recreational opportunities fo r our youth. Our Lig hthouse Program will keep targeted schools open fo r community program ming on evenings and weekends. Wi th these initiatives, our government looks fo rward to taking fu rther

1216 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 2000 action on an issue largely ignored by members opposite. While the former government talked about simply getting tough on crime, we have acknowledged the need to develop a co­ ordinated approach to deal with these systemic- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member's time has expired. An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? Order, please. The Honourable Member has asked for leave. Is there leave? [Agreed] Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. James, ple ase continue. Ms.

Korzeniowski: May I continue?-the need to develop a co-ordinated approach to deal with these systemic problems. Government can no longer af ford to overlook the severity of organized crime and youth gang membership in this province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. New Iceland Historic Designation Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I rise today to draw attent ion to a very importan t event m the Interlake. Late last year the Honourable Sheiia Copps, the Mini ster of Canadian Heritage . announced 11 new designa tions of national historic significance.

I am pleased to report that one of these desig nations has gone to an event that is partic ularly signi ficant to the history of the Gimli constituency, and that is the esta blish­ ment of New Iceland. Terrible economic and clima tic conditions in the mid-1 9th century drove numbers of Icela nders from their homes in search of a new Iceland. Many looked to North America, where the first Icelandic immi grants arrived in 1872. Early destinations in Nova Scotia, Onta rio, Wisconsin and Nebraska proved unsuitable, so the migrants turned their attention west.

In 1875, Icela nders esta blished themselves in the Interlake area, and Manitoba is now home to a successful and vibrant Icelandic community. The recommendation for the historic designa tion for New Iceland was made through the federal Heritage Mini ster by the Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada. I would like to thank Leo Kristja nsen, the New Icela nd Heritage Museum, the Town of Gimli, the Betel Heritage Founda tion, the Icelandic National League, and Icel and's president for their efforts in bringing this important event to the at tention of the Historic Sites and Monuments Board.

Locally, we have always recognized the historic and cultural importance of the establish­ ment of New Iceland, but to have this historic event recognized at the na tional level is quite an achievement. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Photos of Resistance Exhibit Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): On May I, 2000, the Mini ster of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Ms. McGifford), representing the Premier (Mr. Doer), officially opened the Photos of Resi stance Exhibit, Mayworks Cel ebration in the Pool of the Black Star here at the Legislative Building.

The Minis ter stated that our government is proud to support Manitoba's Mayworks Cele bra­ tion designed to honour and promote the many positive contributions the labour movement makes to our social and economic lives. The Photos of Resi stance Exhibit is a ma jor event in the Mayworks Celeb ration. The interpretive photos capture the daily struggles of working­ class li fe, while celebrating the acc omplis hments of Manitoba workers in all fa cets of their lives.

It is a plea sure to displa y this exhibit in the Legisla ture and offer Manitobans an opportunity to learn more about the history of workers in Manitoba. Many viewers will identify with the struggles depicted in the photos, struggles of postal workers, nurses, fa rmers, VIA Rail em­ ployees and others. When they do, they will also recognize the positive outcomes of labour's historic journey, a journey founded on the principles of democracy. The Manitoba Federation of Labour is to be commended and thanked for sponsoring this exhibit and for continuing to uphold the rights of workers in Manitoba. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. * (1 4:30)

May 17 , 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1217 Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to say a few words about fetal alcohol syndrome. This is a condition which affects many children in Manitoba. It contributes inordinately to the anguish and heartac he of parents, but it also contributes to problems in our school system because these children when they arrive in school need extra care, extra at tention, and if not provided indeed can be quite disrup­ tive in some circumstances in the classroom.

The concern about fetal alcohol syndrome does not stop in the classroom; it continues in a number of circumsta nces-we do not know in what proportion at this point-through li fe. Indeed, these children can be problems in the workplace, cause disruptions and problems. So it clearly is a condition which needs a lot of att ention, a lot of consideration to prevent this problem. The savings not only are in anguish and heartache and problems in many circum­ sta nces, but the savings indeed are significa nt in terms of dolla rs to our health and welfare system s.

So I applaud the Government but urge even more because I think it is so important. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Sixth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Seli nger) and the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Stef an son) in amendment thereto, sta nding in the name of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), who has five minutes remaining. Mr.

David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): It is a plea sure for me to rise once again and to place a few chosen words upon the of ficial record of this Chamber regarding the Budget announced by the new New Democratic Party . I ended yesterday by saying we are looking to dark days ahead for Manitobans when this budget comes into being, and indeed that is in fact going to be the case as many constituents to whom I speak wonder out loud whether or not the indivi duals in the New Democratic Party have packed their head in the sand so far that perhaps maybe only their buttocks are remaining above the ground.

They do not recognize that taxa tion is the ma jor consi deration when anyone is deciding as to a career and how they are going to fulfil their life's ambitions and where they do that. I mentioned yesterday that the only certainties in this world are taxa tion and death. I think they brought these two very close together because a lot of our young people are not looking to live here in Manitoba because of the taxat ion situa tion.

Being the highest taxed province in all the land is not one that our young people are wanti ng to come and provide for not only themselves but, in the future, their fam ilies and their employees. I took with great interest some of the dialogue that has been expelled by members opposite in regard to the debate on this budget, and I am very hard pressed to find members opposite that have talked about the Budget. An extreme amount of dialogue is dedica ted to frivolous items of discussion, and I am really wondering whether or not the members, in support of their Fina nce Minis ter's (Mr.

Sel inger) budget, are so hard pressed to find some concrete evidence which they can grasp and discuss and extol. An Honourable Member: They do not like tax hikes either. Mr. Faurschou: Precisely. They are embar­ rassed by a lot of contents of the Budget insofar as they are not making any mention of the fa cts that high tax ation is going to be a hindrance to them and their constituents. They do extol a number of different points that are what they feel highlights to this budget, but in fa ct all those points are being made in support of previous programs that the Progressive Cons ervative Party had put in place.

The reductions of the business tax and the continuance of that is extolled by the Member for Brandon. I do not believe that perhaps he would have even recognized that had it not been in a past practice of the previous government to

1218 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 2000 reduce business taxes and to recognize the importance that small business plays within this province. Some of the other rhetoric that goes on here, I have asked for concrete demonstration of where the province of Manitoba lacked 10 00 nurses, out of employees, here in Manitoba. I am very much looking forward to documentation that backs up the Honourable Member for Brandon West's (Mr. Smith) statement that is detailed here in Hansard. Mr. Harry Schellenberg, Acting Speaker. in the Chair I am also curious to find from the Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonof

f) how he feels that his area is so downtrodden and poor and insi nuates that members have not trave lled the Interlake and are unaware of that part of our province. I would li ke to place upon the record. I am very fam il iar with the residents of Pine Dock and spent a summer there and recognize the situation to which they are accusto med. I am certain tha t they would be very indignant to learn that, in fa ct, their member is stating that they are poor.

Sometimes, it goes beyond me as to how to fully comprehend individual's assess­ ments of others. whether they be poor or rich and to make commentary to the effect that one is poor or rich as to the length of their bank account. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Schellenberg): Excuse me. The Honourable Member. your time has expired. Thank you. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Acting Speaker, I rise to talk about the Budget, and I want to begin by putting on record that I believe that the NDP made a mistake in not following tradition by delivering their budget by March 31.

There is a reason for that tradition, and part of that reason is for good planning and good budgeting not only within the Legisla ture but throughout Manitoba. The impa ct in the delays. for example, in the university and community college community and their ability to pia n is substan tial. The ability to plan in a whole variety of other areas is dela yed. So the first point that I would make would be that the NDP should have provided this budget by the end of March. instead of waiting an extra month and a half before deliv ering it.

The second point that I would like to make about this budget, you know, budgets should have integrity in the way the speech is delivered. The budget speech fa iled to mention one of the important items, and that is that the NDP have elimin at ed up to $2,500 PST rebate for first-time buyers. The Budget should have been a full accounting in the speech, rather than a selective presenta tion trying to present just the best fa ce for the NDP Government. Let me move now to comment a little bit about the NDP claim that they have made some progress with their five ma jor commitments.

The first commitment which the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Sel inger) made and the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Chomia

k) was that they would end hallwa y medicine and rescue health care. Let us give the NDP some credit. because there has been some improve­ ment in the number of patients in the hallwa ys from the documenta tion which we have now available and from what I hear from health care workers. But let us, at the same time, acknow­ ledge that there is a lot of progress that still has to be made. I was talking with a health care worker at the Health Sciences Centre who indicated quite clearly that the- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Schellenberg): Order. please. A point of order, the Honourable Member for Carman.

Point of Order Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Mr. Acting Speaker, I am having great difficulty in hearing the remarks of the Honourable Member for River Heights. I am sitting this close to the individual, and I would like to hear about all these cuts that they are talking about that they are making to CBC. So I am trying to pay special at tention. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Schellenberg): Thank you. It is difficult to hear the Member for River Heights, who has the floor. I ask all members to allow the Member to be heard. I thank you. * * *

May 17 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1219 * (1 4:40) Mr. Gerrard: I suggest to the members of the Government that there is a lot more work to be done, that the conditions as I hear them, for exa mple, in the Health Sciences Centre emer­ gency room are perhaps, if anyth ing, worse in the way beds are managed than they were some months ago . We still have next year's flu season to go through. There is a lot of pla nning that needs to be done to make sure that the era of hall way medicine under the former government has truly come to an end.

There is at the same time, I suggest, a long way to go before health care in this province is functioning well. We have a circumstance where the Government has thrown money at the situation without providing a lot of care, accounta bili ty, without giving us good measures of outcomes, without putting in place the research and the development to ensure that things are being done well. We have, in fact, the most expensive per capita health care system in Canada of any province.

It is time that we learned how to manage the system better so that we increase the quality and we are able, in fa ct. to have costs which are affordable and which are not rising to the extent that they have been in recent years. The second promise of the Government was to renew hope for Manitoba's young people. Well, there are some benefits in terms of lower tuition, and the Government should get some credit for that, but at the same time there is a lot more that is needed.

Clea rly, the infrastructure and the funding situation of universities and community colle ges has a lot to be desired if indeed in Manitoba we are going to go and try to achieve the participation in post-secondary education that is now present in provinces like Quebec, el sewhere in Canada, where something like 40 percent of our young people are in post­ secondary education compared to Manitoba where it is only just a little above 20 percent.

There is a lot more that has to be done in providing an optimistic view of young people in Manitoba in terms of new economic oppor­ tunities, in terms of improved taxes, in terms of an environment which is going to be supported, guara nteed equality for the future. The NDP have promised to keep Manitoba Hydro, fine. They have made it for eight months without selling it of f. That gives them some credit, and let us hope they can keep going for the rest of their mandate . The NDP have promised to build a new partnership between business and labour for new and better jobs.

Well, there was an economic summit, but there is very little of that economic summit that actual ly made its way into the Budget. There were a whole host of ideas at that economic summit, particularly in the area of the new economy, and virtually none of that has actual ly moved into action and practice in spite of the words of the Fi nance Minis ter (Mr. Sel inger) into the Budget and into the future. The Government has made commitments and promises to keep our communities saf er and yet. in fa ct, we are not given what benchma rks the:y wi ll use, what outcomes they will guarant ee.

We need a clearer plan, rather than just putting in place one new program after anoth er. Programs themselves are not enough if we do not measure results. Programs are not enough if we are not sure that they are working property. We need to make sure that even as they are implemented that there is the outcome measurement, the benchma rk, the quality control. the research. to make sure that we move this province forward in terms of social policy and not backwards by adding one poorly thought out program after anothe r. The NDP have promised to keep the balanced budget legislation.

We have made it through a number of months. Let us hope you continue it. I think it is important to point out that that balanced budget legisla tion has some nota ble flaws. One of those flaws, let us be fa ir, is that this would not have been a balanced budget if the Government did not borrow from the rainy day fund. The Provincial Auditor last year was critical, and rightly so, that last year's budget was not nmlly a balanced budget if one followed proper accounting procedures.

I think that one can make exact ly the same case this year, that this was not really a balanced budget if one followed proper accounting procedures. I think, though it is no fault perhaps of the way the balanced budget legis lation was written, it does indica te that there is a difference between the

12 20 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2000 intent and the pract ice. That is something that mig ht be addressed in the future. The NDP have promised to lower property taxes. Let us congratulate them for adding another $75 tax credit. But at the same time. most people in Manitoba realize that there is more to go, that you need to take the approach that we advocated. That is to elim inate the prov incial levy on residential property tax for educa tion. This would simplif y the system.

It would take us in the direction that we really need to go. which is a much more comprehensive movement in reduction of property taxes. a signific ant change that would be well appr eci­ ated by people throughout Manitoba. Let me say a word or two about agriculture. The Government and the Opposition have both spoken about the situation of people in south­ western Manitoba. Clearly. in my view. wit h some better work the Government could have been able to negotiate a JERI program to help people in southwestern Manitoba.

This is a sad fa il ure on the part of the new NDP Government and shows that they have some way to go yet in dealing effectively and well with the federal government to get the best possible for people throughout Manitoba. I would suggest to you as well that in this time of change in agr icu lture that we need more of a vision than was provided by the Govern­ ment in this budget. There is a real trans­ formation in agricu lture at the moment, and the Government should be in the lead in fac il itating that. The Government should not be cutting back agricu ltural research spending by a third.

The Government should be in the lead with a vision of how people in Manitoba, far mers in Mani­ toba, are going to make that transition and are going to be given assi stance fac il itated to make that transition at a parti cularly dif ficult time when commodity prices are low. The Govern­ ment can do better. It should have done better when dealing with agric ultural issues. Let me talk for a moment about the so-called end of the cla wback of the child tax credit.

Let us give the NDP some credit for some movement in this direction, but let us at the same time acknowledge that that movement is not far enough, that it does not really fu lfil the fu ll intent of the prom ise that was made in last year's election. So we say that this prom ise is not fully compl eted, not fully finished. There is very little in the Bu dget that gives us some abil ity to believe that this government has a focus on im proving the sit uation wit h our environment. The Budget is very simila r to that which was provided before.

If one looks at the new Departm ent of Conservation, very little real change from the previous government except, of course, for some $20-milli on decrease in the flood protection expenditures. We do not know whether the new government is going slow on building new dikes. We hope not. It may be that this is just decreasing, but we do want to make sure that those 13 community dikes, which were never built under the former government, are in fa ct proceeded with.

There is a lim ited time to do this under the current federal provincial agreement, and this time should not be wasted. * (1 4:50) I wanted to talk for a moment about pensions and acknowledge that the NDP have taken a step forward in looking at and providing some attention to the unfunded pension liabilities. I and others have some questions as to whether the amounts which are allo cated, which is $2 1 million directed each year, is sufficient to really meaningfully address, and to address fu lly. the unfunded pension liabili ties which are in the bill ions of dolla rs.

This clea rly must be a subject of assessment in the Estim ates which are coming up and in the fu rther debate which will occur and must occur in this House. I want to return now to renewing hope for Manitoba's young people and suggest that the NDP have not done enough. I am in substantial agreement with the Member for Kir kfield (Mr. Stefanson) with many of the lim itations of the Budget. the deficiencies of the Bu dget which were presented. I believe that the Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park has not gone fa r enough. Now it is time for Manitoba's NDP Go\-emment to join the modem world.

NDP politicians, like the Tories before, have become mir ed in the old ways of thinking, of driving into the fu ture by looking at the past. The Bu dget delivered last week by the Finance Mini ster drives us determinedly back-

May 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 21 war ds. Now, would you not agree with that, Harry? The Honourable Mr. Doer and Selinger should realize that driving us toward where we have been is not what we need. "Forward to the future" should be our battle cry. [interjection} Point of Order Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I think perhaps the Member for River Heights is unaware that while we are in the Chamber, we do not mention the indiv idual names of members in the House, but we mention them by their constituencies.

I would ask you to call the Member for River Heights to order and ask him to use the appropriate rules of this House. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Schellenberg): The Member does have a point of order. You should address them by their constituency. Thank you. * * * Mr. Gerrard: I was referring, of course, to the Honourable Minis ter of Fi nance and the Premier. I believe that there is much more to do. and. clearly, we should be going forward and not backward s. Any large organiza tion, government or corporation or university, has to create a sound budget and a strategic plan.

Based on sound accounting principles and clea r business goals. there should be, for examp le, a rationale pla n for infrastructure, for information technology. for research and development. Sadly, all of these are missing from this government's $6.4-bill ion budget. And nowhere is this lack of planning cl earer than in the area of education funding. Speaking in the Legisla ture last week, the Honourable Minis ter of Education (Mr. Caldwell) admitted that post-secondary fa cili ties need about $250 million immedia tely for building repair and fa cili ties, the infrastructure deficit.

Yet the Mini ster of Educa tion's department is all ocating only $10 .9 million to capital fu nding for univer­ sities and, to community colleges, a mere $2.2 mill ion. These numbers bear no relation to the actual needs. They are simply numbers quietly inherited from the previous Tory ad minis tration wit hout much thought. At this rate of spending, it would take twenty years just to address the present shortfall, and yet the Government has said that it would double community college spaces. Are you going to double the spaces, double the capacity of our community colleges on $2.2 mil lion?

The money for capital programs in this budget is not even enough to look after Wesley Hall at the University of Winnipeg whose fa� ade has been cru mbling and the Department of Engineering buildin gs at the University of Manitoba whose insides leak rainwater. I was talking to the Dean of Engineering, and he talked about the waterf all coming down into his building. Yet the Government has fa il ed to provide a coherent and logical plan to deal with the infrastructure deficit.

The lack of attention to infrastructure, of course, is a symptom of a decade of neglect by the previous government, a decade that, thanks to the new NDP budget, will now last into the mille nnium without satisf actory attention. It is time the capital budget for universities and colleges be based on a rational foundation. a rational foundation in which expenditures are li nked to real outcomes in terms of maintaining, developing or even, if necessary, sometimes tearing down old buildings. The NDP Government should also heed the examples of efficient and well-run corpora tions.

Businesses set priorities, and these are visible in their budgets. They are called budget lines. For example, on average, large corpora tions today will now spend 5 percent to 10 percent of their budget on inform ation technology. By com­ parison, what can be readily identified in the recent Educa tion budget of $1. 4 billion is only 0. 17 percent of the total budget set out as various informa tion services and systems. The sheer absence of a single line allo cation to inform ation technology speaks volumes about the Govern­ ment's inability to grasp the urgency of ada pting to the reality of the new economy.

Education and work have never been more closely linked. Business is calling on universities and colleges to adapt, to be more flexible and more responsive to the needs of the marketp lace. In order to do that, our post-secondary education fac ilities must be equipped with the latest informa tion technology as part of a system-wide network and datab ase. How else can they

1222 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2000 provide the lif elong learning, including the skills needed in the hig h-tech industries for Manitoba to remain competitive in the 21s t century? In today's global economy, innovation is critical to success. Large corpora tions recognize the need to all ocate resources for research and develop­ ment, and this may range from 1 percent to 16 percent of their budget, depending on the nature of the industry.

Usually in high-tech and informa tion technological industries they spend more, closer to the high level rather than Jess. and when it comes to research in education and health, a reasonable allo cation of taxpa yers' money is probably in the range of 2 percent to 5 percent and yet the prov incial Education budget earmarked only $0.48 milli on or 0.03 percent, while the Health budget earmarked only $3 .6 milli on or 0. 15 percent of the total budget toward research and development. Now what does R&D have to do with the real world of overcrowded ERs? A lot.

In the past decade there has been a devastating underfunding of research in Manitoba. There has been a very real im pact on our ability to im prove the quality of health, to control costs. to spend effectively and efficiently and so our budgets have gone out of control and our quality has gone to pot. That is not good enough. The Manitoba Health Research Council is a primary fu nding vehicle for health research in this province and in the past decade, while prov incial revenues have gone up by 35 percent. the Manitoba Health Research Counc il's fu nding has come down by I 0 percent.

When you look at the big picture, when you stand back and look at the im pact that this has had in Manitoba, the loss is staggering.

The shortfall in prov incial research and development investment has probably cost over the last five years somewhere between $300 million and $600 milli on to Manitoba, money that would have been levered primarily from outside to invest here, to help us im prove our health care, to help us im prove our education. and we have lost that because we have fa iled to put in place the base support, education and health and indeed in other areas of research and development. * (15 :00) The previous Conservative admin istration should be given some credit in the area of agriculture.

With agricul ture, as the Honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) knows, the all oca tion for research last year was between 4 percent and 5 percent of the budget, and indeed if this had been done in other minis tries then we would have had a dram atically dif ferent cir­ cumstance. The Mini ster of Agricul ture should be given some credit. Alberta Saskatchewan, Ontario and Quebec all spend substanti ally more than Manitoba on research and development.

Quebec, as an exam ple, has three research councils with a direct prov incial allocation this year of about $15 0 milli on and another $12 0 mill ion provided through Valorisation -Recherche Quebec, which basically is how you get the practical benefits of your research done in universities out into the community, out into the marketp lace for the benefit of the whole province, in this case Quebec.

That total of $270 million for Quebec all ocated by the Province of Quebec is to be sure that there was an underpinning of uni versity­ based research and innovation to support their social, their scientific, their engineering and their health program s. In addition to those dolla rs, the province of Quebec has fu nding to promote research and innovation in industry. By comparison to that $270 milli on, Manitoba has only one research cou ncil and only allo cates $1 .75 milli on to its sole counc il, the Manitoba Health Research Council.

It is little wonder that we have a research and a technology gap in this province. Will this gap continue to widen? If the Budget of last week is an examp le, the answer sa dly is yes. Not only was the Manitoba Health Research Council budget not increased, the Economic Innovation and Technology fund was cut by two-thirds. The agriculture research budget was cut by one-third. While the NDP and the Tories are arguing about tax points, the real story of this budget is the Jack of a businesslike approach, the fa ilure to invest appropriately in Infrastructure and information technology and in research.

This is the real mi scalculation of the NDP Bu dget 2000.

May 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 23 The Bu dget was a budget from 20 years ago. It was not a budget for this century and this mil lennium. It will have consequences for years and years to come. There is a huge amount that has to be done. Research and development. the infrastructure, the information technology, are all critical to spending more wisely to be able to operate a government which in fac t uses resources well so that our costs, like in health care, do not run madly out of control, so that we can lower taxes, so that we can have more opport unities for young Manitobans.

That is the story in this budget, the old direction instead of the new. What we need is a government which starts to think about the new directions, the new economy, the new ways that we need to position Manitoba in this new world, in this new mil lennium. Thank you. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Mr. Acting Speaker, it is indeed an honour for me to rise today to put a few words on record regarding the first prov incial budget of the new mil lennium, Bud get 2000. It is indeed a bala nced, finely tuned budget that resonates well with all fa ir­ min ded Manitobans.

It is a budget for all Manitobans , not for one elite sector of the province. This is a budget for Manitoba fa milies. yes, and it is also a budget for Manitoba's middle class, in spite of the Member for Springfield's (Mr. Schu ler) Cold War rhetoric to the contrary. Yes, I have li stened with interest to a number of good speeches, both pro and con, regarding this budget. The Member for Elmwood (Mr. Malowa y), for example, made a good point. He said that we voted-that is, the Government here-we voted last year. We voted on your budget.

We voted for your budget because of its emphasis on supporting health care and educati on. Now, why do you not return the fav our? But I guess you are not good sports this time around. Of course the Opposition is angry. It is not hard to tell. They are angry not because this is an excellent budget for Manitoba but because it is not their budget. The Opposition ju st cannot believe they lost the last election. They do not want to give the last word to the people, but the people spoke last September. They made it clear they want a dif ferent direction, and it is not a Tory direction.

So they have decided, our Tory friends over there, that since it is not their budget, Bu dget 2000 is not their budget, this budget cannot be any good. even though this budget incorporates many of the elements that they have advocated or are advocating; tax relief, modest, yes, but still it is tax relief; a balanced budget, a small surplus. something they certainly did not accom plish fo r years in the first half of their 11 - year reign; the gradual reduction of the small business tax rate. So even the Tory-friendly elements of the Bu dget apparent ly go unnoticed by our critical coll eagues opposite.

This is a shame Now, the gentlemanly thing to do, the ladylike thing to do would be to say nothing, nothing at all if they cannot say anything nice. That is what my mother always told me. Bu t somewhere our right-wing Tory friends have become totally fixated on cutting taxes. I suppose they have borrowed this notion from right-wing Repu blica ns. I never know where they get their ideas from, but they do not seem to want to stick with their own ideas. I suppose they have borrowed this notion, as I said bef ore. from right-wing Republicans. It has always amazed me, Mr.

Acting Spea ker, that Cana dia n super-blue Tories can never come up with creative ideas of their own. They always have to borrow from a Margaret Thatcher or a Ronald Reagan or a Newt Gi ngrich or a Bush or a McCain. Right now we even have the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler ) borrowing ideas from Albania. This is really fri ghtening. No wonder they are having an id entity crisis. They do not know if they are red Tories or blue Tories or Alliance Party or Conservative Party or Social Credit or real Canadians or fake Americans. They are having problems. They are having an identity crisis.

I know the members over there do not need or want my pity, but I am going to extend it to them anyway . I do feel sorry for them . Some of that extreme rhetoric they used to condemn Budget 2000 only indica tes, in my mind, the confusion in their acts. Their attacks on this, the first really sensible budget to come out of

12 24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2000 Manitoba in a number of years, only show that there is division, disillusio nment and panic in their ranks . Who can blame them when in their frustration they lash out in most intemp erate language? Therefore, Mr. Acting Speaker, we take most of their criticism of the Budget with a grain of salt, actually, with a carload or two of salt. We take it for what it is. We recognize the source it is coming from. This is a sensible, practical and achievable budget.

If members opposite do not have the good sense to recognize that, let us be charitable to them and blame it on their post-election blues, their ongoing identity crisis, their current pro­ vincial leadership hassles, the fa ct that two of their big guns are deserting them, the fa ct that there is a nasty behind-the-scenes leadership struggle going on, pitting the grassroots against the party establi shment, which the grassroots on that side never seems to win. * (15:10 ) Mr.

Acting Spea ker, as a former teacher tor many years, I have come to recognize, as al i good teachers do-and I will put myself in with the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) in the category of good teach er-that when a child acts up in cl ass-and also of course our Honourable Education Minis ter (Mr. Caldw ell), I will include hi m-beha ves in a di sturbing or irrational manner consi stently, there is something wrong at home. The unusual and bizarre behaviour is symptomatic of a larger problem. It is usually a home problem.

Simi larly, when the Tory Opposition acts most irrat ionally and starts qu oting Albania a lot. it is not hard to infer there is something wrong in the Tory home. Like the Member for Woiseley (Ms. Friesen), I take no special comf ort in the fa ct that the Tories are having troubles at home. I want to be clear about that. At a federal level, there is something di sconcerting, alm ost vaguely shameful about seeing Joe Cla rk being deserted by people who ought to be his allies, I think. What happened to loyalty, Mr. Klein? What happened to loyalty? What is happening to the party of Sir John A.

Macdonald, a party instrumental in linking east and west and creating this country named Canada? So am I surprised at the Tory attack on this budget, Mr. Acting Speaker? No, I am not surpri sed. It would be more intellectually honest to first look caref ully at the Bu dget before launching into dia tribes against it as members opposite are doing. Personally, I am very tired of the Republican mantra chanted daily by members opposite: Cut taxes, and parad ise will arrive. I do not know where this logic comes from, because if you take it to its logical consequence, cut all taxes, have no taxes, see where we will be.

What happens to our hospitals and to our schools and to our roads? They seem to assume cut taxes and parad ise will indeed arrive. I suggest that we should ju dge the Bu dget on its true merits. Let us not use only one criterion and our one yardstick as members opposite are fond of doing to measure this budget. When you see what this budget does for fam ili es, for ordinary Manitobans, for northerners, for Aboriginal people, for poor people, then you must say that this is an excellent budget. The Tories have labelled the modest tax cut in this budget as insuf ficient.

Well, this government had to make some tough decisions because of earlier Tory overspending. I hope they are aware of this. When provincial Tories chant the mantra, more tax cuts, where were they when they racked up the largest deficit in the province's history, a $766-mill ion deficit in 19 92 and 1993? That was followed by a $46 1-million deficit the followin g year. So, in two years, our tax-cut friends over there rac ked up a deficit of well over a billion dollars. Now they whine about the fa ct that we have balanced the books. They demand bigger tax cuts.

We did not have to sell Crown corpora tions, like you sold MTS in order to balance the books. Yes, and it was a real Tory government under Rodmond Roblin in 1908, which created MTS for the benefit of all Manitobans, and it was an alleged Tory Party which sold it off la ter on, and I say it is to their everlasting shame. So, when these alleged Tories, suf fering from an identify crisis, vilify the Bu dget, we on this side of the House have no option but to sigh and wonder out loud about their problems. I guess we could be smug about it, but we are not.

We could coin slogans maybe which might mit igate their suf fering through a

May 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 25 li ttle bit of humour because of their identity crisis. I have coined the one: Stock well by day, Tory at night. Maybe they want to use that. I give it to them freely, no copyright attac hed. Mr. Acting Spea ker, the fa ct is that if the only horse you are riding is a tax-cut horse, then you are going to have a very small para de. We are all interested in tax cuts. We would all like to have tax cuts, but I think we have to have a reasonable and responsible budget.

We cannot have across-the-board tax cuts and still maintain our social saf ety net or still maintain our spending that we need for health care, on which we campaigned, and education and so on. As the Member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) so eloquently said and poin ted out in her speech on the Bud get, you cannot overemphasize wealth creation at the cost of social cohesion, which is what the Tories are fond of doing. This budget does not fa ll into that trap . This Budget 2000 is caref ully balanced, caref ully crafted. We recognize the need for wealth creation, but we also recognize the need for social cohesion.

It is true that tradi tionally right­ wing governments have focussed more on wealth creation and so-called left-wing govern­ ments more on social cohesions, but global economic forces have driven all governments. governments of all stripes to the centre or slightly right of centre. Ha d the Tories-and this is my firm belief-before the last election actu ally been Jess extreme, as the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Malowa

y) also pointed out earlier, they might well have won the last election. But, no, they were seduced by the Republican siren song of massive cuts, and Manitoba, over the Tory years, lost 700 teachers, over a thousand nurses. lost the publicly owned telephone system. Because they questioned their own identity, the Tories fell victim to the public's wrath in September 19 99. They were not clear on their directi on. They forgot they were Tory. So the strident voices on the Opposition benches, I interpret, Mr.

Acting Spea ker, as not so much a condemnation of this budget but an anger and a frustration at themselves for having lost the trust of Manitobans, for having lost the last election. In fa ct, the members opposite are saying this publicly themselves. The Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik) is quoted in the Free Press of last Monday, May 15 , as sayi ng­ and these are his very own words: "'Are we really surpri sed we lost the last el ection?' said Praz nik. 'We did some things over the last five years that we have to come to grips with."' Further on, the Free Pr ess states: "Praz nik"­ that is the Member for Lac du Bonnet-"argued that in its final years, the Fi lmon adm inis tration turned its back on the party rank and file while fal ling to scandals that eroded the party' s credibility. "In par ticula r.

Praz nik"- that is the Member for Lac du Bonnet-" said, the Tories did themselves in with broken promises on health care spending and involvement in the 19 95 election vote-splitting scandal that consumed most of Fil mon's top adv isers.

"'On the heels of these mi stakes, the party establishment unleashed an ambitious campaign in last year's election which promised $1 billio n in new spending and tax cuts that were totally out of character for a government known for its cautious progress." It is not only the Member for Lac du Bonnet who has identified the real malaise, the real problems which have pl a gued the Tories who are now in the Opposition benches. In the same Free Press arti cle the member for Lakeside (Mr.

Enns) is also quoted, this honourable member, whose speeches I really enjo y listening to, who has long served this Legisl ature in a most distinguished fas hion and who yesterday said in the House that he was proud to have been a Mulr oney Tory. I was gladdened by the fact because now I know at least there is one real Tory left. at least one Tory that admits to being a Tory. But even this honourable member is quoted in the Free Press. I am quoting the Free Pr ess a lot, but, you know, I miss Frances Russell, I guess.

"'We did a number of things badly wrong,' Enns said. 'Bill ion-dollar promises that weren't charac­ teristic with the Film on government. We were arrogant and we paid for it. We have to get out of that inner-circle crowd that has been running the Conservative Party of Manitoba. We have already paid a price for that. We lost an election we ought to have won."'

12 26 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2000 Now, Mr. Acting Spea ker, those are honest words, and I commend the member for Lakeside for putting those words in the public domain, because he is pointing something out that can happen to any political party . Arrogance will inevitably breed a fa tal price. I think the party over there was arrogant, did follow paths that were not Tory paths and they fell. The Tories did themselves in, Mr. Acting Speaker, and therefore, this dog-in-the-manger attitude to Budget 2000 is really only in many ways the whining of a di sgruntled opposition.

I do not understand why the Opposition is chiding us for being responsible New Democrats who are actually imp lementing the policies on which we campaigned, something novel to the Oppo­ sition, I guess. We are keeping our word. None of our members are playing Jekyll and Hyde. We do not, as members opposite do. lurk around phone booths to come out. He will go m as a Blue Tory and come our as a what? Alliance, Stockwell by day? Tory by night? Red Tory? Bl ue Tory? We never know. You scratch a Tory, you never know what colour they come out, and that is kind of scary.

You peel a layer of f a Tory, and you find a Reformer or an Allia nce member or a Social Credit or a Republican or a born-again tax cutt er. I do not know. Stay away from phone booths. * (15 :20) Now nobody loves taxes, but. surely to goodness, members know that taxes fu nd our health care, our roads, our education, our social safety net. Do we need to get into a bidding war on which ju risdiction has the lowest taxes?

If that is what we get into, I will guaran tee you that Manitoba will not stock up very well-that is an unfortunate combination of words, "stock up very well." Bu t, anyway. we will not stack up very well against Ontario or Alberta because we cannot really, really seriously compete with massive oil revenues and economies of scale. It would be most dif ficult. Mr. Acting Spea ker, I represent a northern riding and northerners are quite happy, by and large, with this budget. When I say by and large, I think it is overwhelmin g, but there are always a few disg runtled Tories, even up north. They are hard to find.

They have their meetings in telephone booths. For example, we have always felt in the North that the $50 user fee levied on northerners via the Northern Patient Transporta tion Program was an unjust user fee. We felt it was targeted at northerners, and it was vindictive, it was nasty, it was bitter and it is gone, thank God. We felt that it was a fee targeted only at us, and I commend the Minis ter of Fi nance (Mr. Selinger) for dropping this fee. It is difficult enough, especially for our senior citizens, to travel to Winnip eg hospitals without the added indignity of being saddled with a $50 user fee.

That trip is very long. That trip is very difficult. They have to pay to stay at hotels and motels after one night and so on. It is extremely expensive. To be hammered with another $50 was simply not acceptable. We have tried hard to get rid of it. I am very happy this Minister of Fi nance was wise enough to get rid of it. Northerners know, as do members opposite, how impor tant roads are as well to the economic development. For many northern communities there is only one road. Visit Leaf Rapids or Lynn Lake or Sherridon, Gohl Lake, or even Flin Flon, for that matter, and there is only basically one road.

Some of our northern communities do not even have a road; therefore, that one road becomes a lif eline. Now for years the Tories ignored northern roads despite their saying to the contrary. They would give us 4 percent or 6 percent of the total budget. sometimes 1 0 percent. I think one of their high points was 11. 8 percent. We used to put in 18 percent or more when we were in power. An Honourable Member: Jim Downey said they did not vote right. Mr. Jennissen: Yes, and Mr. Downey, the deputy premier, did, in the past, say the reason for that was that up north we did not know how to vote right.

Well, we know how to vote right; we vote left. Now that system was total ly unfair, and yet what do members opposite say today? Well, let me quote the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim

May 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 27 Penner), on Monday, who stated in reference to economic development on roads. He is an honourable member, and I am sure he believes this. He gave a very good speech and I agreed with most of it, but here is what he said. The Honourable Member said, making a comment about the Honourable Member for La Verendrye: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye was "to be the voice of the south in cabinet; it appears he has fai led, despite his best efforts, to convince his collea gues of the im por­ tant contribution our southern roads system makes to the economy.

He needs to talk to his coll eagues about the impo rtance of maintai ning a part of our economy that is actually working instead of just throwing money at parts of the economy where we will get no return." There you have it, Mr. Acting Speaker. The Tory philo sophy of why they could not put money in northern Manitoba into the road system. Basically, they are saying: You guys do not contribute. This is patently fa lse. I hastened to assure the Member that this government will govern for all of Manitoba, and the northern economy is working, despite Tory sabotage and underfunding in years past.

The Member suggested that, by putting money into northern roads and infrastructure , it was like throwing money away and he is dead wrong. I would like him to think, the next time he turns on that electric li ght switch, of where that electricity was produced. It was not produced in southern Manitoba, I will guarantee you. Northerners have more than paid their way. I suggest that we take a good look at the taxes, the mineral wealth and the forest products coming out of northern Manitoba.

As our current Health Minis ter has done more in six months to fix the health care system than the Tory did in 11 years, so our Hi ghways Minis ter did more for roads in northern Manitoba in a few short months than the Tory government did in 11 years. This is not unbalanced. He is simply trying to address an unbalance that existed before. The North was total ly neglected and ignored. This Minis ter of Hig hways did not neglect southern Manitoba. Witness the work that will be done on Hig hway 59, for examp le. Furthermore, the Hig hways Minis ter did not fight Ottawa like the Tories used to do.

He worked together with Ottawa, and he managed to get a decent winter road built from Brochet to Lac Brochet and Tadoule Lake. That is something that the Tories could not do in 11 years. Mr. Acting Spea ker, this budget is fa ir to northerners. We are heartened by the fa ct that my honourable col league from Rupertsland, the Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Minis ter (Mr. Robinson), announced in The Pas on Monday $700,000 in core fu nding, funding that was cut by the Tories. This restoration of core fu nding was long overdue.

There is $5 mill ion in additional money for ambula nce services and medical emergency transport for rura l, northern and the rest of Manitoba, as well, which will help northerners.

This budget provides fu nding for an aboriginal economic and resource development fu nd, for im proved di abetes and dialysis program s in aboriginal communities, for self­ relia nce initia tives that will involve 12 more communities, for Access program s, for northern airports and ferry services. for initia tives addressing chronic housing shortages in northern Manitoba, for FA S program s, for aboriginal child welfare initia tives, for increased staf fing and fu nding of the geological survey branch because we realize the tremendous impo rtance of mining in this province, for increased im prove­ ments to northern airports and ferry services.

The list goes on and on and on. This government is doing something. This Minis ter of Fi nance did table a budget that is a responsible budget. This budget, this government will put northern Manitoba back on the map again. Talking about maps, by the way, I am not happy that the former hi ghway maps that the Tories produced went from the 49th paral lel to slig htly above the 57th. Our province goes to the 60th paral lel. Ignoring a quarter of the province, the northern chunk, on the map, may be a bit-1 could be accused of being a bit nitpicking, but it bothers us northerners.

It seems it is a symbolic gesture saying that the top northern quarter does not count. I am sure that this minis ter will try very hard to address that and that the next highway map, hopefully, will have all of Manitoba on it, not just up to the 57th paral lel. You cannot ju st ignore a quarter of the province,

12 28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2000 because northerners have always felt left out. We are going to feel a lot less left out now. In concluding, I commend the Minis ter of Fi nance for a fine budget that is fa ir to all Manitobans, that addresses the concerns of all Manitobans, not ju st the elite which provide the funds for the Tory election campaigns. No Manitoban is treated unfairly in this budget. To my honourable coll eagues on the other side, I can only say the sky is not fa lli ng. That dark shadow you see is the fortunes of your own par ty, and it is in total di sarray.

Our Manitoba economy is healthy. Unem­ ployment is down. Outmigra tion has ceased. Manitoba and, yes, Win nipeg, are still the pla ces where you can raise a fam ily more cheaply than virtually anywhere else in Canada. If you do not believe me, try to buy a house in Vancouver or Toronto. It is at least double. if not triple. the price you pay here. Those are the fa cts. ladies and gentlemen.

Unlike previous Tory budgets. which featured massive cuts at the beginning of the mandate and binge spending just before an election, this Minis ter of Finance, to his credit, has delivered an up-front, honest and nicely bala nced budget. I would remind members opposite that in the by-election in Newf oundland two days ago the Tories barely edged out the NDP, but Mr. Hearn, the Tory who eventually won, ran an NDP-style campaign.

To quote the Fr ee Pr ess, May 16. page B 1, one more time: "Hearn's campaign, which focused on health-care and education, was positioned to the left of where the party is now headed because a socially progressive message is easier to sell in Newf oundland." I would add that it is also the ethically correct message, the ethically correct direction to go, socially progressive.

So I urge members opposite, the next time they step into that telephone booth only to emerge as super-Reformer or super-Allia nce or super-Social Credit or super-Republi can, that they should rather stay true to their own blue colours and come out blue, well, perhaps allow a little red Tory, because that is what the electorate would recognize. Then the electorate would know what they really would stand for. Then we know what we are dealing with. I would suggest to them, quite honestly, quit ju mping on American-style, tax-cut band­ wagons. This is Canada. This is not the United States.

We sti ll believe in helping those less fortunate than ourselves. We still believe that. We believe in responsible government. We believe in responsible and fa ir taxa tion. This budget reflects that fa irness. This budget is a breath of fresh air for Manit obans after a decade and more of fac ing a negative Tory wind that alternated between savage cuts and pre-election squ andering. This is a sensible budget, and I commend the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Selinger). Thank you, Mr. Actin g Spea ker. * (15:30) Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr.

Acting Spea ker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to make my contribution to the Budget Debate. I would like to begin by acknowledging what a tremendous workload, a monumental task it is to craft a budget and the many. many hours that go into the discussions and the debate around designing a budget. I would like to acknowledge those people in the Departm ent of Fi nance who work on the tax side to estima te the revenues and look at all of the indicators and usually are very, very close in their ana lysis of what revenue will be.

I would like to also acknowled ge those people in Treasury Board who sit through those countless hours of Treasury Board meetings with departments and with staff and with doughnuts and cof fee, the tremendous work that goes in there in doing an analysis of what is brought forward . I think we in Manitoba can be proud of the work that members of the Department of Fi nance and members of Treasury Board have done over the years in serving governments and bringing forward informa tion that assists a government in finalizing a budget. Mr.

Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker , in the Chair I would lik e to commend the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Selinger) for bringing in a

May 17, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 29 balanced budget. I know his party has subscribed to the balanced budget legislation. I think, as I have said before and other members said the other day, acknowledging that balancing budgets and accepting that legisla tion, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery . I think we had our times over the last few years where we quoted most members who were in the Chamber during that balanced budget deba te.

But there is recognition that all provinces in Canada have moved this direction and recognize that unbridled expenditures could no longer go on and that all provinces were fac ing taxp ayers who were on the verge of revolt in terms of the taxes that they were paying. Most governments have now started to move the taxes the other direction, some more drama tica lly. Certainly we had made some movements here in Manitoba. I am disappointed that the Government did not follow through with a more earnest effort in that direction, but I think it is important that they subscribe to the balanced budget legisla tion.

I note that we did not have the alternative budget from Choices this year, but I am sure they had their opportunity around the Treasury Board tab le and the cabinet table and the caucus ta ble to have their input. We can see vestiges of their ideas and concerns embraced within this budget. Even though the Government has adopted the balanced budget legisla tion, there are still a couple of troubling issues. I noted the Minister of Finance (Mr. Sel inger) speaking in Brandon the other day, when asked whether they were still prepared to raid the Crowns in future years. he said, never say never.

I would caut ion him that Manitobans would not support raiding rate-based Crown corpora­ tions, whether it be MPIC or Manitoba Hydro or others, that those rates are set by the Public Utilities Bo ard. They are set by their boards of directors and endorsed by the Public Utilities Board. They should reflect the cost of that service. Whether it is hydro or whether it is auto insurance, it was never intended. Even though Saskatchewan, to some extent, raids their Crowns, I would caution the Minis ter of Fin ance to think very long and very hard about that.

I am also concerned about the new rates and the new brackets that they have set in going to the new taxa tion system. I think Manitobans are going to be going to their accountants and asking to have their taxes analyzed. It is a very difficult decision to set not only those brackets but also the rates to ensure that you have the income that you had this year and last year and hope that you will set those rates appropria tely for coming years. I know they have set them higher than Sas katc hewan. They have made the brackets different than Saskatchewan .

I do believe that the Minis ter of Fina nce has erred on the side of caution here and that he is going to see probably a fa irly substantial increase in revenues because of where he set those brackets. I would say also that this budget was a missed opportunity, that the Government is, I think. receiving revenue far beyond what the last budget indica ted would be coming in. I know that the Minis ter of Family Services (Mr. Sale) had often criticized Finance minis ters for low­ balling revenue.

Those same people I praised a few minutes ago make their very best effort to try and gauge what federal transfers will be, what provincial income tax will be, what provincial sales tax will be. It is, in many respects. an educated decision that is made by them. To the good fortune of government, these revenues have been low-balled in the last few years, not by design, but certainly I think we are the benefactors of the fa ct that revenue has come in higher. For instance, in the 1999 budget, by the third quarter report, revenues were shown to be up some $434 million.

That is an asto unding amount of revenue that has come from federal transfers, from provincial income tax, from provincial sales tax and other sources. Again, I know that staf f in Finance did their very best to try and estima te what that revenue would be, but it is a testament to the economy in Manitoba, which has been booming over the last few years, that revenues have come in considerably over what the Budget had indicated it would be.

So I think, given the fa ct that revenues continue to be buoyant and the fa ct that there was $434 million in excess revenue over last year's projections, there was a wonderful opportunity to be able to cut income tax in this

12 30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 2000 budget. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Sel inger), in many of his responses in this House in his first days, indicated their budget would have balance, balance between priority spending, balance that would recognize debt repayment and balance that would indicate some reduction in ta xes. I would suggest to you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and the members of this House that balance was missing, that the tax reductions in this budget were minuscule and, with the buoyant revenues not only for this year but for future years, there was an opportunity to be a little more aggressive on the tax reduction side. That will be borne out, I think, when you see revenues coming in when you close of f 19 99 and as you get into your first. second and third quarter reports of this particular year. So I do believe that they have fa iled to read the mood of the public correctly here.

They have fa iled to recognize that that balance should not only be on the expenditure side but should have also been on the tax side. I think there is good reason for the fact that revenues have been more than buoyant in Manitoba. I know that the Department of Industry, Trade and tourism and others who were working on trade initia tives in government often talked about the Manitoba advantages. Certainly one of the strong advantages was the people we had here in Manitoba, highly skilled. highly trained.

We know that when there were companies that moved staf f here, one of the reasons they did it was that they had individuals in Manitoba that they could hire with an ex­ cel lent work ethic, a bil ingual capa city . Cer­ tainly, that has not changed, and it is something that Manitobans and businesses coming to Manitoba will continue to take advantage of. Manitoba has also offered an environment in which the costs of doing business are excep­ tionally attract ive. Office space and industrial land are inexpensive and readily avai lable, and electricity and long-distance rates are the lowest in Canada.

So there was good reason for companies to relocate here. I think those advantages are still here. Along with the central time zone and the work ethic of our people, we have a very strate gic location, and we can build on that. I think that the perception, because the cost of living is low here, that we can afford to pay higher taxe s, is wrong, because that cost of living can change and ultima tely taxa tion is something that becomes very, very important. We can determine, to a large extent, our own cost of living -the amount we invest in a home, the amount we invest in a business or a car.

We have some discretion there, and we can control that cost of living. We cannot control our ta xes, and we should not feel, and the Minister of Fina nce (Mr. Selin ger), should not feel, that he can punish Manitobans-because the cost of living is low, taxes can be inordinately high. There have to be taxes that compare well with other jurisdictions. * (15 :40) I would also say that the reason for this buoyant economy of the la te 19 90s had a lot to do with infrastructure, whether it is telecom­ munications or roadways and airports and railroads.

These are things that cannot be neglected, and I would offer a criticism of the Highways budget. When you meet with AMM and municipalities, with KAP, you will hear this messa ge time and time agai n. It was interesting to me to note that somebody on the other side had said that at this point you are able to do one project in seventeen . I can remember that, when we came to government, I think it was one in ten. and that gap is widening. I know our hope is that the federal government will use gasoline tax. that they will come to the table with infrastructure.

I am sure somewhere buried in the Budget there is some discretionary funding to match a federal infrastructure program. I think all Manitobans would hope to see that, but at the same time to reduce that budget by $1 0 million, for whatever reason, probably was not a priority that I would have supported. I think it is a valid criticism, and you will hear from the road builders' association, from the AMM, from KAP because that infrastructure out there is so important.

With the demise of the Crow rate and the abandonment of railroads­ things that we are not going to change-roads are going to continue to be more and more important, and I think the federal Finance Minis ter has indicated that there needs to be a national strategy on this, and the Prime Minis ter has indica ted that. I would hope that sometime in this current budget year or soon, they will reveal

May 17 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 31 that. Unfortunate ly, it may have a lot to do with the timing of their next election, but it is such a critical issue.

I am sure that Liberal members of Parliament from all over this country are telling the Fi nance Minis ter and the Prime Minister that with the revenues the federal government has­ and I know they are trying to balance almost equally tax reductions with priority spending­ but that infrastructure spending is an absolute necessity, and I think that there is going to be a chorus of people across this country who are going to say that more and more often. I think that the emphasis on educa tion is well placed. We will see how that shakes out with the universities.

There is a bit of smoke and mirrors with the tuition reduction and money going to universities, but at the end of the day those boards and those institutions will identify where the shortfalls are. I know other members have talked about the infrastructure at universities.

More important than bricks and mortar, I think, are the people that you are able to attract there, and, if the universities are not able to offer the courses, if they do not have those outstand ing individu als that they can hire­ whether it is at Manitoba, Winnipeg, Brandon or the community coll eges-there will be an impact on where people go to receive their education, so I think it is important that that be monitored as time goes on. For many other reasons as well, in the late 19 90s the Manitoba government has done well in terms of revenue, and there is no reason why that cannot continue.

Again, I would think in this budget, a ma jor criticism that I would have is that there was not that balance between tax reductions and expenditure priorities. I would like to indi cate some of the other areas that I think the Government perhaps has made an error. The fa ct that you have delinked from the federal system a year early is simply a tax grab. There was an opportunity for Manitobans to enjoy what most other Canadians are going to ha ve, and that is an income tax reduction based on the system that was in place. The Mini ster of Fi nance (Mr.

Sel inger) will know that our commitment was to delink next year, not this year. As a result, some $40 million that would have flowed through to taxp ayers is not going to. A portion of that possibly will, but going from a tax-on-tax to a tax- on-income is something that all jurisdictions are going to do. Again, I think that the Mini ster of Finance, Treasury Board officials and, ultimately, Cabinet have been a little more agg ressive than they should be.

In fa ct, they may be in line to have far more revenue than they thought they were going to have because of where they have set those rates and set those brackets . I think that it is not unexpected that the Government should mention the tax reduction that came in place on January I. Manitobans know that was part of the last budget. Members opposite will talk about that. I do not have any objection with that because I think that is pretty transparent what they are doing. Simila rly, the commitment to reduce the small business tax from 9 percent to 5 percent, you are just maintaining the

schedule that was announced last year. and I commend you for that . Manitoba is not going to drama tically reduce taxe s. We went from 54 percent to 4 7 percent over a decade. Certainly we were prepared to go a little further, and I think you must go further. You have not in this budget but you must do that in future budgets to be sure that Manitoba is competitive. Later on, I will just indica te some of the specific cases where that is going to have an impact. Much has been said about the new rates and the new brackets and your medium-term fiscal fram ework.

I have a concern, and it was stated by my coll eague from Kirkfield Park (Mr. Stef an son) the other day . It does show revenue increasing year over year in your medium-term fiscal fram ework. My concern is that pretty well all of that is going to expenditures. Again, there is no indication here that in future years-as other jurisdictions have signalled where they are going to lower their taxes-there is no indica tion here that this government in this province is going to be on that particular path.

In fact, I will just read into the record some of the tax reductions that other jurisdictions have already anno unced. Saskatchewan announced the biggest tax cut package in the province's history while at the same time increasing funding to priority spending that when fully implemen ted, 70 percent of Saskatc hewan's

12 32 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 2000 taxpayers will pay the same income taxes as Ontario and Alb erta, those two provinces that we always use as the guideline in terms of tax reductions; B.C. has provided $12 0 million in tax relief; Albe rta has announced the II % flat tax. In fa ct, they are talking about the possibility of going to a sit uation where there will be no provincial tax in the future. One of the reasons that Saskatchewan is being more aggressive than we are on tax reductions is the fa ct they border Alberta, and it has a tremendous impa ct on their western flank.

Saskatchewan is cutting taxes by $44 million this year and by $260 million over the next three years. New Brunswick provided its citizens with a $33-million tax cut, and of course last week Ontari o announced a 5% tax cut for those earning at least $30,000, and announced that they will be rebating to all of their citiz ens $200. I think the stage has been set across this country to reduce taxes. Again, I see this as a serious missed opportunity, given the buoyant revenues that this province is enjoying. The opportunity was there, and we have missed it. and we are going to fa ll behind other juris­ dictions.

In fact, right in their own budget document-and this has been mentioned before­ the fam ily of four who earn $60,000, where there is one income earner, our provincial income tax of $6,394 is clearly the highest in the country. The fa ct that our cost of living is lower is not a reason to punish people. We have a cost of living here that we have some choice in, what cost of living we have. We do not have a choice on taxe s, and the fa ct that we pay the highest taxes in the country is not going to be lost on people who are increasingly more mobile.

People who have cottage property in western Onta rio are going to consider making that their permanent residence, because the taxes are so much lower there. In fa ct, even people in the western part of Manitoba may view Saskat­ chewan as a place to relocate where they own land on both sides of the border because taxes are marginal ly lower there. They have signa lled that they are going to be increasing those tax reductions in coming years. so we have missed that opportunity. I would say that Treasury Board and members of Cabinet should look very closely at that and try and remedy that in future budgets.

I am also concerned with the process, although I think it will deserve a closer look, where part of the debt repayment is now going to be reallocated. There is no question that there is an unfunded lia bili ty with pensions . An issue that had to be dealt with by government either now or in the coming years, but to siphon off the payment that was set aside for the provincial debt and put part of it towards the unfunded liability may be a violation of the legisla tion.

I do not know. *( 1 5: 50) Everybody acknowledges, whether it is a TRAF unfunded liabili ty or the government employees' association liabilit y, it has to be dealt with and it will be dealt with. It would be dealt with by any government. Everybody recognized that, even though there are people who believe that when the Provincial Auditor commented on it, it was as if people did not recognize it was there. It was recognized because every year in the Budget, the actual amount had to be contributed to those who were drawing that pension.

I would like to move next to talking about the people who advise Finance min isters on budgets. I know the Minis ter of Finance did have a consultation process across the province, and I would hope that he would release that documenta tion for Manitobans to see what advice he was getting from groups across the province, whether it was organ ized groups like CAP and AMM or councils in various juris­ dictions or whether it was simply individ uals who came forward and indicated what they saw as a desirable way for the Minis ter of Fin ance to go both on the expenditure side and on the tax side.

Now, much was made of the Manitoba Century Summit that the Premier and the Minister of Fi nance lauded in their speeches and in their press releases, and certainly this is a good process. It is one that our government followed from time to time to bring together people from all segments of society to look at the economy of Manitoba, to look at the tax

May 17 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 33 regime in Manitoba, to look at what the education system is in Manitoba, and how we can work together to make this a better pla ce to live. My concern is that there were ma jor recommendations in here on t