Volume XL Tuesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas Number 19 19 April 1988

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. MR. WT.NDSOR: Mr. Speaker, T. am pleased to inform han. members that a contract valued at nearly $2 million has been awarded for the construction of a new service building for Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro at Bishop's Falls. Han . members will know that Bishop's Falls is the principal maintenance and supply depot for Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro's operations on the Island. The contract awarded to Seabord Construction Limited of St.

John's is valued at $1.9 million. Seabord submitted the lowest of 12 quotations in a recent call for tenders. The new service building will be 1,125 square meters and will replace the existing facility which was constructed as a munitions storage depot many years ago. The building will house the transmission, terminal, civil works department and maintenance garage. Work on the new service building is scheduled to get underway immediately and is expected to peak at a total work force of thirty persons. The facility wi 11. be completed and ready for occupancy in the second quarter of 1989 .

L929 April 19, 1988 Vol xr. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Gander . MR. BAKER: We are pleased that the contracts are getting out, we are pleased that there are thirty jobs being created, and we are particularly pleased that these jobs are being created outside st. John's. Hydro's decision to put the maintenance and supply depot in Bishop's Falls is laudable. Hydro recently made a decision to move a lot of management positions and to put a brand new building 1 n St. John's when i. t seemed to be totally unnecessary to do so.

I would suggest that the Minister look at asking Hydro to go back, review the decision, and perhaps consolidate the management with the maintenance and supply depots in Bishop's Falls. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health . DR. COT.J.INS: Mr. Speaker, as hon. members are aware, the hon. the the Minister of Finance (Mr. W.i.ndsor) announced a significant change in the MCP optometric program during the budget speech. T want now to outline the implications of the change, having discussed the matter of its administration in detai 1 with MCP.

The Newfoundland Optometric Association has been informed of these administrative details, which will also be contained in a newsletter to be sent to all optometrists by MCP No. 19 R929 t.:

shortly . Mr. Speaker, previously an oculo-vis-i.on examination for. pul"poses of detecting and treating refractive errors by Optometrists was an insured service at a minimum interval of twelve months. In recent years, MCP auditing arrangements had detected a decided trend towards annual examinations becoming a general norm,

whereas previously, longer intervals between examinations were the genet"ally accepted norm; examinations at two-yeat" intervals ot" longet" wet"e accepted as good ophthalmologic pt"actice for uncomplicated vision t"e.fractlve et"rot"s. Last October, MCP discussed this matter with the Newfoundland Optometric Association, expressing concet"n about ovet"-use o.f the programme. The change announced in the budget sets the ft"equency of insut"ed t"eft"active ert"ot" examinations generally at a minimum of twenty-four month intervals, the usually accepted not"m.

The purpose i.s to avoid unnecessary expenditut"es of health dollars which are bettet" utilized fot" needed services elsewhere in the health cat"e system. Mt". Speaket", it is recognized that, in the distinct minority of instances, refractive et"ror. examinations may be required at intervals shortet" than twenty-four months, for example, in some children. MCP has always had a mechanism in place to handle such requirements in regard to its total programme area.

The mechanism involves submission of an independent consideration request, made out on a special form for attachment to the regular claim form, by the health care givet". Accordingly, where L930 April 19, 1988 Vol XL professional optomett"ic opinion indicates that a refractive error examinatino at shot"tet" intervals than twenty-four months is required, this independent consideration mechanism may be used by Optometrists when submitting claims to MCP in such cases.

Tt should be noted that, since the inception of the insured optometric programme through MCP in 1981, refractive error examinations at less than twelve-month intervals have never been covered by MCP, so that the independent consideration mechanism will covet" professionally examinations in twenty-four month necessat"y the twelve to interval period. Mr. Speaker, I now want to deal with a second important administrative issue.

Through its computer arrangements, MCP is aware of the identity of those individual patients who received .insured optometric examinations over the twelve-month period pt"ior to the date of the budget announcement. There will be no retro-act .ive effect of the announced MCP changes. Individuals may still have an insured examination at or after the twelve-month interval subsequent to their last recorded examination, and the twenty-four month interval requirement will only apply for subsequent services.

For example, an insured examination carried out mot"e than a yeat" ago, may be repeated at any time; similarly, a pet"son having had a refractive error examination, say in June of 1987, may have another in June of 1988, that is after twelve months, as an insured service. In each instance, subsequent examinations No. 19 R930

must be at twenty-four month intervals. In other words, there is no retroactive effect of the twenty-four month interval situation. As I say, even the twenty-four month interval is accepted for those cases eligible for independent consideration as I have already outlined. Discussions have been initiated with the Newfoundland Medical Association with respect to MCP billing arrangements applicable to physicians giving refractive error examination services as well as to Optometrists.

It should be noted that Ophthalmologists, as distinct fr.om General Practitioners, are not involved in refractive error examinations as an isolated service. Mr. Speaker, these administrative MCP arrangements will protect against unjustifiable expenditures on refractive error services, whilst insuring that all professionally needed care is fully insured. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! M.R. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. M.R. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. T do not know, Mr..

Speaker, if it is the hon. minister's Scottish background or his background as Minister of Finance, but to present a statement like that to the House of Assembly today and to try to dress it up to take away the effect it is going to have on the people of Newfoundland is J..931 April 19, 1988 Vol XL absolutely irresponsible for the Minister of Health. It is just by coincidence, Mr. Speaker, that prior to corning into the House of Assembly today I met an optometrist in the lobby of Confederation Building. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. EFFORD: I see Mr. Cucumber is at it again . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, in a few minutes I wtll have one of the Pages deliver to the Minister of Health a document which clearly states dozens and dozens o.f examples of identified cases where senior citizens and school children actually need eye examinations much more than doctors are trying to tell everybody around this Province examples of senior citizens and school children documented by optometrists in this Province. Now, here we have a Minister of Health and a Minister of Finance, who introduced this programme with absolutely no consultation with the optometrists in this Province, and that is a proven fact.

The optometrists explained that very clearly when they met with myself, members of government, and other members of the Opposition. The question has to be asked: Why did you not deal with the people themselves, or investigate your own records on how of ten numbers of peop l.e, who, for. different he a 1 th reasons, require eye exarninat ions more than once every two years? There is no way you can save money No. 19 R931

if a person has to go to a general practitioner. MCP will have to pay the general practitioner and then pay the ophthalmologists, and this will exceed a cost of $55 where now a normal eye examination is $28. So, what we are doing is doubling the cost. What about people far out into the Province, in remote areas? If they have to come to see an ophthalmologist in St. John • s or in an urban area, where most of them are located, there is going to be the added expense of travel.

Another important thing we should be looking at, apart from the strain that is going to be put on the people of this Province, is the strain on the ophthalmologists. We need to keep good people in this Province not discourage them. But this is exactly what is happening with the nurses situation, it is exactly what is happening with the overworked doctors in all our;­ hospitals. Here is another prime example where the Minister of Health is showing total irresponsibility in administering his department. He is not trying to help the health situation, he is taking away from it.

We have already had one resignation from the Board, and what we are going to see now - the message is very clearly stated in this letter - is these people are going to leave the Province, they are going to pull out of MCP sompletely, and the minister, himself, has to take full responsibility for this mess which he is creating in this Province. Let me give an example, Mr. Speaker, of how much money MCP - MR. SPEAKER: L932 April 19, 1988 Vol XL Order, please! MR. YOUNG: Your time is up. MR. HISCOCK: Oh, what a shame! MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Men.ihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to the Ministerial Statement in a slightly different way, and that is to indicate to the minister that the argument that you only need an eye examination every two years is certainly not tc-ue in very large numbers of people, especially young people. I remember when I was growing up that almost every year my prescription would change, and if it did not change, Mr. Speaker, I had a very difficult time seeing the blackboard, and I had hard time seeing where I was going. AN HON. MEMBER: We know that. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: The Minister of Health (Dr. Collins) · and the government opposite is putting a tc-emendous burden on the young people of our Province who will have a difficult time adjusting duc-ing the time period when their eyes change very quickly. No. 19 R932

The other thing, Mr. Speaker, is clearly the same kind of problem exists for the elderly. The elderly in our society have their vision change quite rapidly over a period of years, and I would suggest that the minister look at his policy and change it. The way I would suggest he change it is he establish an age of perhaps eighteen or nineteen years of age below which they would still be allowed to get examinations once a year, and an age above which they would be allowed to get them once a year, perhaps age sixty-five. I think that kind of a policy would be much better. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, the last comment I would like to make is that prior to this plan coming into effect, I had the choice, then, of deciding to use either an ophthalmologist - an eye doctor - or an optometrist. Clearly, in a situation when one service is paid for and the other one is not paid for, there is a tendency to use the one that is paid.

That is an unfair use, I would suggest, of an ophthalmologist, yet there are ophthalmologists in this city, and in a number of other cities in this Province, who clearly are all competing with the same kind of service being offered by optometrists, and I know the Speaker, himself, is intimiately aware of the kind of problem that we are talking about here. So I would suggest to the minister that he reconsider the problem and look at a different kind of solution for it.

If he feels that it is not necessary for people in their middle years, I think it: is clearly necessary for the young and the elderly, and on that basis should be restored to them. L933 April 19, 1988 Vol XL Oral Questions MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn). On Apri 1 9, Mr. Speaker, the minister placed a half page advertisement in The Evening Telegram, an advertisement that congratulated Trepassey on the opening o.f their stadium and cost somewhere in the vicinity of $700 to $800.

Can the minister tell us whether the Department of Educat i.on or any other government department paid for this advertisement? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly have to check into that. The ad was placed by somebody else rather than myself and I will certainly find out for the gentleman. But,when we place things in relation to district advertising we pay for it ourselves. MR. FUREY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for St. Barbe. MR.

FUREY: the Could the minister tell us why he saw fit to spend $700 on this ad, when the minister responsible for Recreation (John Butt) took out the sRme ad, on the same day, in No. 19 R933

the same paper at a cost of $300, and the Premier took out the same ad for a quarter of a page on the same day, about the same subject for another $300, for a total possible cost of nearly $1300 to the treasury? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: I>fr . Speaker, the staditun in Trepassey has been on to go for quite some time. It was started about twelve years ago, but it di.d not get very far until a couple of years ago when we get involved ourselves, and I suppose in all modesty I can take a fair amount of credit for getting the thing into operation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

HEARN: I might also mention that the people of Trepassey, as well as the rest of the people in St. Mary's - The Capes are extremely supportive, as can be seen by the polls from the last election, and if I have to spend that kind of money to congratulate them on an effort I am willing to do so. I am the member for the area, not the Minister of Culture or the Premier. MR. FUREY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what I was wondering. · Because the ad clearly says: 'Message from the M. H .A. for St.

Mary's The Capes', I am wondering if that was paid for by the Department of L934 April 19, 1988 Vol XL Education. That $700, Mr. Speaker, could have been used at St. Genevieve School in the Northern part of my district where children in kindergarten have no clean dt"inking water. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question! Question! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: I want to ask the minister, if this ad was paid for by the Department of Education, will the minister give a commitment now that he will reimburse the department so that money can be spent in a department he says himself is strapped for funds. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, any ad that I have ever placed as a member for an area, not from the department, has always been paid for by me. When T get the details on the matter, I wi.ll certainly make sure that any ad, as I say not only this one but any ad that I place, once we get the bill, I pay it. Whether it be plaques for schools - I can submit hills, ads in newspapers, newsletters, whatever, if they are done as the M.H.A. for the district on a political level then it i.s our responsibility to pay for it. MR. DECKER: Mr . Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. No . 19 R934

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, my for the hon. Education. question is also the Minister of SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DECKER: I find I am having an awful job making myself heard over the roar of those members opposite. I do wish there were some way they could be controlled, but that does not seem possible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DECKER: My question is for the hon. Minister of Education. In his attack on educators over the weekend, the minister said that he was conducting an investigation to ascertain whether or not Liberal-minded people in the NTA are using their positions to influence government policy.

Now, will the minister elaborate on this inquisition? Will he tell us when the investigation will be finished or whether or not this investigation would be more appropriately called a witch-hunt? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, when the hon. member tables the infonmation that he just quoted verbally, I will give him an answer to the question, because I said no such thing. MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for the St["ait of Belle Isle. L935 April 19, 1988 Vol XL MR. DECKER: Mr..

Speaker, T wi 11 table a newspaper. clipping, and refer the minister to the last two paragraphs. My supplementary, Mr. Speaker: The minister threatened educators who do not support the Tory Party. "If they want to play political games, he says, I can play political games too." Will the minister tell the House what he intends to do after he finds Liberals in the NTA? Because let me assure him he will find Liberals in the NTA, like all other professional associations which are full of Liberals and full of fonmer Tories. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr.

Speaker, I might add to that t:.oo that within the Newfoundland Teachers' Association or any other or.gani.zation you wi.ll also find a lot of Tories. You will also find a lot of Liberals and NDP people who are very good, close, pe["sonal friends of mine, including a couple of the names that were mentioned in the statement - very, very close personal friends. The wording that the member used about conducting an investigation or inquisition, those words are not there, not even in the paper. Not only did I not say them, they are not even in the print.

It says, 'he is trying to ascertain' - this is not a quote, it was just written there by the person who did the interview 'whether Liberal-minded people in the NTA "would use their own personal aspirations." 'What people do within an organization is entirely up to them. In relation to playing political games, this is a game of politics, that is the grune No. 19 R935 ~~-...

we are in, and if anybody wants to play politics with me, or with my department, or with the government, I will play politics with them, certainly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. DECKER: I have news for the minister if he thinks that the education of thi.s Province is a political game. I would hate to see what he would do to his enemies the way he is treating his friends.

Surely, the minister must realize by now that his threats, his scare tactics, his unfounded accusations, are totally inappropriate for any minister, let alone the Minister of Education. I ask the minister, after having time to reflect on his irresponsible actions, will the minister now, finally, stand up and apologize to the NTA for the anguish that his unreasonable attack must have caused those educators? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education . MR. HEARN: Mr . Speaker, how infantile! How infantile! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

HEARN: I have here, and I can table, the item from The ·sunday Express, and nowhere in this have I said anything to insult the teachers of this Province. In fact, I have travelled from one end of the L936 April 19, 1988 Vol XL Province to the other talking to what teachers are there, all of whom are good friends of mine, and they know exactly where I stand in relation to my relations with them, my respect for them being one of them and, also, my respect for the education system of the Province.

In relation to playing politics with the system, one of the things T have always said and reiterate now is that one department in government where we do not play politics in relation to our bui.l.ding of schools or our allocation of grants is the Department of Education , and as long as T am there that is the way we will keep it. I certainly would not like to see it fall into the hands of people who would try, on the backs of teachers and the education system, to gain some cheap political points.

Of course, they are well known out in education circles for what they have contributed in the past and what their aspirations are for what they will contribute in the future, and that is exactly nothing. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Health (Dr. Collins) and it has to do wi. t.h the Royal Commission on Nursi .ng recommendation that has asked for tuition fees to be imposed on nurses being trained at the hospitals in the Province that do the training for nurses in the diploma programme.

It is our understanding that this is now being entertained by the government. Could the minister No. 19 R936

give us some indication o.f whether or not this proposal, that of charging tuition fees for nurses in hospital nursing schools, whether that is in the works or not? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I think the han. member is referring to some actions that may be taken on the part of management people in the hospital nursing schools. I do not have any indication that they are making any change at this time. If there any plans underway in the hospital nursing schools, I will inquire about them and bring back some information. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Menehik. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, given that the minister's Committte on the Nursing Work Force has already brought in an interim report indicating that it is very difficult to recruit high school students into the nursing profession.

What I would like him to do now is stand up in his place and say that it is not the government's intention to bring in tuition fees and extra costs for nurses going into the diploma programmes and, furthermore, to indicate that there will be some way to encourage more young people to go into the nursing profession so that we can do· something about the tremendous shortage of nurses that we have in this province. MR. SPEAKER: L937 Apri.l 19, 1988 Vol XL The han. Minister of Health. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, the exact reason for mount i.ng such a study, which is being conducted by the Nurses' Associati.on, the Newfoundland Nurses' Union, the Newfoundland Hospital and Nursing Home Association and the Department of Health - those four agencies - is to define any problems we have in nurse recruitment, nurse retention and similar matters of that order. And I received a very preliminary, interim report saying they have done some studies in those areas. They expect to complete the full report by, say, mid or late Summer.

We will await their results with great interest and I am sure we will take their recommendations consideration. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: into A final supplementary. MR. FENWICK: serious As the Minister knows, because he has given us a copy of the report and I assume has read it, one of the problems on the nursing shortage is the fact that less and less high schools are looking at nursing as an attractive alternative.

Could the Minister explain to us, if it is difficult to recruit young men and women into nursing now when there is no tuition b.eing charge, how the imposition of a tuition fee will help in order to recruit people into this profession which is desperately looking for new recruits? MR. SPEAKER: No. 1.9 R937

The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I understand from what the member says that he wants us to bring in a fee for the training of nurses. He seems to be concentrating in that area. He seems to be pushing that point. I am not sure that I agree with the member on that. If he wants to send me a brief say.ing here is why I want the nurses in training to be charged a fee, I wish he would do it. .Because T am open to any suggestions, but T will not take into consideration foolish suggestions.

So, if T determine that the member's wish to have a fee charged for nurses in training, if T fi.nd that it is a foolish suggestion, I will not act upon it. Now, if he can bring forward cogent reasons why we should act upon it, I will give the NDP party full credit for it, and he need not have any fear about that. In regard to what the interim report says, there are quite a number o.f factors that relate to nurse recruitment these days. As far as I recall, they did not put any emphasis, if any emphasis at all, on the cost of nursing training.

They put emphasis on the attractions of other forms of· employment: in this day and age for high school graduates. There are many areas now where rna le and female high school graduates can get into that formerly were not available to them and so they tended to go into the nursing profession. That is no longer the case now. That is an area where the Nurses' Union, the Nurses' Association, the Newfoundland Hospital Association, and the . Department of Health have concerns L938 April 19, 1988 Vol XL and we are investigating the validity of those concerns and what to do about them. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Fi.sheries (Mr. Rideout) in relation to the Fall fi.shery of last year. This was brought: to my attention when T just read over some parts of the budgets from last year and this year. My first question to the minister is: Was the minister aware that a member of his government was involved in ·marketing when he announced the subsidy last year?

If he was not aware that a member of his own government was involved in marketing, when did he become aware of it and did he agree that this was a proper procedure for him to be involved with? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I assume the bon. gentleman is talking about the special $1 million mackeral/herri.ng assistance programme that we announced to create jobs for fishermen and for fish plant workers last year.

Let me tell the hon. gentleman that not one copper of that money went from the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador or the Department of Fisheries to a member of this House of Assembly by cheque or any other means. We paid the subsidy directly to No. 19 R938

licensed fish processors in Newfoundland, not marketing companies, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, my question was not how the money was paid. My question very clearly was: Was the minister aware at the time that the programme was put -in place, was instituted, by his department, where the fishermen did not get a great deal, about five cents a pound, that a member of his own government was involved in the marketing of this product? MR.

SPEAKER: The han . the Minister of Fisheries . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker, it does not matter whether. the mi.nister was awac-e or. whether the minister. was not aware. The fact o.f the matter, Mr. Speaker., is that the programme was publicly announced, the funding was paid directly to the Quinlans and to the Freddy Woodmans and to the FPis and the National Seas of Newfoundland and Labrador, not to any marketing company. It does not matter, Mr. Speaker, whether I was aware or not aware. MR. EFFORD: A further Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: supElementary, Mr . A final supplementary, the han . the member for Port de Grave.

L939 April 19, 1988 Vol XL MR. EFFORD: It certainly does matter to the people of this Province, Mr. Speaker, i .. f he was aware or not. He is the m\ n\ster responsible. You subsidized the programme and you should be aware. T would ask the minister: First part of the final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Why was $750,000 approved by the budget for marketing in his department? And the second part: Did not officials of your department, at the same time this was going on, completely go against the fact that an MHA was involved and told you so and told the Premier? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries . MR.

RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I announced a mackerel assistance programme in the Fall of 1987, and we paid it under the same guidelines as it was paid in 1988. There was no member. of this House of Assembly involved in 1987. SOME HON. MEMBERS: In 1986. MR. RIDEOUT: Tn 1986, excuse me. We had the programme two years in a row. The guidelines that were in place in 1987 ~ere the same guide lines that were in place for 1986 . We paid the subsidy directly to Newfoundland licenced processors. We did not pay anything to any marketing company or to any individuals.

The latter part of the scurrilous attack coming from the hon. gentleman here today - I mean, get up and say what you want to say; if you have a charge to lay, lay No. 19 R939

it - I have no advice f~om any official in the Depa~tment of Fishe~ies, no~ does the P~emie~ as far as I know, telling me that the~e was anything w~ong with this pa~ticula~ p~og~amme. Absolutely none! Put up o~ shut upl SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea~. hea~! MR. WELLS: Mr. Speake~. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leade~ of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! O~der, please! MR. WELLS: Mr. Speake~. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: O~de~. please! It is impossible to conduct question time if the~e is a continuous inte~~ption. The hon. the Leade~ of the Opposition. MR. WELLS: Thank you, M~.

Speake~. My question is to the hon. the P~emie~. I would 1 ike to ask him if the gove~nment had been conducting fu~the~ negotiations with the Government of Canada wi. th ~espect to the ~·ailway since he last ~epo~ted to the House on the matte~? And has the government now ~eached ag~eement in p~inciple on the closu~e of the r.ailway over L940 Ap~il 19, 1988 Vol XL a period of time in Newfoundland in exchange fo~ an agreed upon lump sum payment o~ lump sum unde~taking in terms of construction of highways? PREMIER PECKFORD: M~ . Speake~. MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the P~emie~. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, M~.

Speake~. we have not. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: '!'he hon. the Leade~ of the Opposition. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, will the P~emie~ assure t.he House that any agr.eement that is ~eached .,.rill include provision for the continuation of the obligation of the fede~al gove~nment to p~ovide fo~ the Newfoundlanad po~tion of the national t~anspo~tat ion system on a constitutional basis? PREMIER PECKFORD: M~. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the P~emie~. PREMIER PECKFORD: M~. Speake~, I do not intend to get into the details of talks that a~e going on between ou~sel ves and the fede~al gove~nment at this time. MR.

TULK: The answer is no. MR. GILBERT: M~. Speake~. MR. SPEAKER: No. 19 R940

The han. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Doyle) and it is in r.e lation to the pr.oposa l call that is out on the air ambulance services. T \lronder can the Minister. of Transportation explain to thi.s House what is the rationale for considering private enterprise to provide this service? Did the minister have a study done, or was there another reason? Will the minister now let us know the facts, whatever they are? SOME HON. MEMBERS: What is the question? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the · Minister of Transportation. MR.

DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I did not quite get the question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, T d i.d not quite get the gist of the han. member's question. I wi 11 have to ask him to repeat the question again, because I did not hear it. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: It was quite simple, I say to the minister. What was the purpose of going to tender for the air ambulance service? It was operated for L941 April 19, 1988 Vol XL twenty years by the government. I understand the Department of Health are comfortable with it.

So what is the reason now that you have gone to call a tender for private enterprise for that service? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, over the last year or so government has been evaluating a number of ai.rcraft that could be employed and used for the government air ambulance service. The reason why, Mr. Speaker, we are looking at that is that the current air ambulance, the King Air that we have in service, is getting quite old, and it is quite difficult to get parts for' it.

I have been told by officials within the department that within the next couple of months it will be necessary to replace both engines in the King Air. It is not a proper air ambulance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DOYLE: It i.s not a proper air ambulance service that we have in place right now, a new aircraft is possibly necessary, so we have evaluated, i.n consultation with the Department of Health, a number of aircraft. We have been looking at aircraft in vaJ:"ious parts of the United States and trying to get the best possible price we can, so that is one thing.

We have looked at the possibility as well of refurbishing the current King Air ambulance that we have in operation, and we have a price for No. 19 R941

that. I think it is somewhere around $750,000 and a $1 million to refurbish that aircraft. To get a new aircraft will cost in the vicinity of about $1.6 or $1.7 million. Now what we have thrown into the mix as well, Mr. Speaker, before we make any decision as to whether or not a new aircraft will be bought as an air ambulance, is to look at the possibility of having private enterprise supply that type of service to government.

And, in keeping with that, just recently, about a week and a half or two weeks ago, we placed an ad in the various newspapers calling for proposals from private aircraft dealers to give us prices on what they could provide that service for. get all these three together., Mr. Speaker, compare and make a So when we things put we will decision. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, the proposal calls for the service to operate from Torbay Airport, and it only gives eighteen days, I think, for a tender to get back.

So it is limiting the tender to the people who now operate at Torbay Airport. So T wonder. would the minister table the names of the companies who can bid on this proposal? Because a former Minister o.f Public Works told me a proposal is where you go out and ask certain people to tender., rather than a public tender which L942 April 19, 1988 Vol XL is open to everyone. So you are 1 imi ting dght now the tender and you are only g1v1ng eighteen days. Would you tell us who the companies are and why? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speaker., it is not limited to one company or two companies or three companies. Any company in Newfoundland and Labrador, and, indeed, Canada, who would like to give a proposal to government, we would be very, very happy to receive it. In that way, Mr. Speaker., we are assured of get tlng the best possible prices. And, as I indicated to the hon. gentleman, there is nothing devious in this. It is a publ i.e thing.

If anybody wou 1 d 1 ike to have the names of the var.i.ous companies who will be putting proposals or. tenders into government, I wou 1 d be only too pleased to make i.t all available to hon. gentlemen opposite and to the media. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. GILBERT: In view of the fact that you say St. John's Airport, there are only certain companies that have space at St. John's Airport now, so it is limited to the ones that are "in the space required'' and a t.ime frame. So now, why would the minister consider.

Gander, which is actually better. prepared to be able to service the people of Mewfoundland? The air. ambulance service is not used on the Avalon Peninsula, so why could you not. use Gander and give better service No. 19 R942

to the people of Newfoundland for whom you are supposedly providing this? So why could you not ask the Gander Airport to be the service center? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, T do not know qui t.e how to answer the hon. gentleman's question, because I really do not know what he is getting at. There is nothing unusual or devious about this proposal or this tender call. It ls an effort by government to get the best possible prices from any company which wishes to bid on the service. And that service is provided Province-wide, not just to St.

John's or Gander or the Burin Peninsula or the West Coast of Newfoundland. It is a Province-wide service and there is nothing unusual about the proposal call that we have made, Mr. Speaker. It is just an effort to provide a vital service in the best possible, efficient manner that we can. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The han. the member for. Twill ingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr . Speaker, my quest ion goes to the han. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, in light of the incident that occurred last week that resulted in a St.

Pierre trawler being arrested, including four or five politicians from that island, and given the record of the Government of Canada and their generosity when it comes to giving away Newfoundland resources to L943 April 19, 1988 Vol XL maintain a certain image, does the Premier not consider it important now that at the next round of meetings between Canada and France, when talking about the boundary dispute, to have representatives at that meeting to make sure that Newfoundland's .interest is well protected? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: T f i. nd the question rather amusing, really.

I appreciate it: coming from the member for Twi.llingate, as a member, as a person, but in his

preamble he talked about not wanting t.o give away any fish to anybody . His own leader has said - I have it here in my notes somewhere - that he was prepared to give away some fish to the French in order to get an agreement, which I do not th.ink the member for Twillingate goes along with at all. But that is what the han. the Leader of the Oppostition said. Obviously, we are in touch on a daily basis. I have a lot of information on the Leader of the Opposition by the way. This is back when he calls St.

John's a parasitic city, and when he stopped the hospital worker.s from going on strike, and all thi.s ki.nd of stuff. But that has nothing to do with fisheries, so I am out of order, Mr. Speaker. All I can say to the hon. member for Twillingate, to try to really deal with his question, is that we have made it quite clear to the federal government over the last several months - Here said No. 19 it an is. The allocation Liberal of a Leader limited R943

quantity o.f Northern cod 1 n order. to get a settlement of the dispute may well be a small pri.ce to pay. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! PREMIER PECKFORD: So, I am sure the member for Twillingate does not share that, giving away non-surplus fish non-surplus - when we have plants closed down, or only going at 50 percent capacity. I can assure the hon. member, I can assure him that we are doing all we can to influence the federal government as it relates to the talks. Now, remember, these talks coming up this week - it is a very good question - are not talks dealing with the negotiations about fish.

They are talks to see whether. you can get talks going. We are trying to .,..10rk out whether. in fact there is any basis for. resuming negotiat i ons . These ar.e not negotiations so there is no fish put on the table, 1. i.ke the Leader of the Opposition wants, or. anything else put on the table. It is an attempt to see whether Canada and France can get back to the table to negotiate. These are not negotiating sessions per se dealing with the boundary and the fish . These are talks to see whether you can form a basis for going back to negotiations.

We will then be involved in those negotiations as we were before, but obviously we cannot be there if in fact more and more Northern cod is going to be given away. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: There is just time for. a short L944 April 19, 1.988 Vol XL questi.on and answer. The hon. the member for Twilli.ngate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the Premier that the member for Twillingate fully endorses the comments made by our Leader. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, it is a matter of - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Resign! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, may I have silence? MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. CARTER: Mr.. Speaker., it i.s a matter of common sense. Tf we have to give 3,000 tons of fish in order to save 20,000 tons, then I think that is a very good suggestion and I support it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. CARTER: Mr . Speaker, the question I put to the Premier, and I put it to him again: Obviously there will be a new round of talks, there wi 11 be a basis formed for further negotiation between the two countries.

Now, then, will the Premier undertake to ensure that there will be representatives of Newfoundland at that meeting, of Newfound land, and will he not instruct his representatives to No. 1.9 R944

pick up their marbles and run home if everything does not go exactly the way they want it to go? Will he give that assurance, that we will be represented at those meetings? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Two points, Mr. Speaker. I am absolutely astounded that the member for. Twillingate, representing a district which depends so largely upon 2J+3KL, and does not have enough fish - we have had a disaster in the inshore fishery for. two or three years in a r.ow - is prepared to give up some of that non-surplus fish to get a deal with the French.

Number two, the second point, whether we go back to the table in the negotiations will depend upon the meetings that are being held and the criteria under which Canada agrees to go back to the table. We cannot say until we know what are the parameters of the negotiations. That is what those talks are about now. We will assess that at the time we know under what conditions the negotiations are starting. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! · I did not want to interrupt the L945 April 19, 1988 Vol XL question time, but today there was more interruptions than usual. There was one particular member - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There was one particular member on the back r.ow on the government si.de who persistently interrupted i.n spite o.f my ca 1.1. ing for order almost constantly. T do not know how many times. On the next occasi .on that happens I am certainly going to name any member who does that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know which member you are referring to in the backbench. I am not known t.o be shy in speaking up whether in debate or. otherwise, but today, Mr. Speaker, I apologize for any outburst. Tt is because I was smeared today in this House by members of the Opposition, attempting to smear my name as a member of this House of Assembly after seventeen years in here. That i.s the reason today, Mr. Speaker, my patience was a bit questioned, otherwise, I apologize, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MORGAN: Smear tactics. No. 19 R945

HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of orde r. . I would like at this stage to introduce and welcome to the galleries Major Betty Gilbert from Come By Chance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the annual report of the Workers • Compensation Commission for the year 1987. T would also like to table the report of matters tr.ansacted under. The Labour. Relations Act during the year 1987, which also includes the report of the Labour.

Relations Board for the same year, Mr. Speaker. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I have a response to a question asked by the member for L946 April 19, 1988 Vol XL Fogo (Mr. Tulk). He wanted to know whether the veh.i.c le currently driven was purchased by the department or. leased by the department. Tn e.i. ther case, did i.t go to tender.? Answer: The vehicle was an 1.985 Impala and it was purchased through the public tendering process.

Secondly, a list of companies who tendered on the vehicle and the amount of their bids are here. There are only two. One did not meet the specs. The other one was awarded the tender. AN HON. MEMBER: What company got it? MR. SIMMS: Hickman Motors. Petitions MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burg eo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here from 577 citizens of Ramea.

"The petition of the undersigned residents of Canada who now avail themselves of their ancient and undoubted right thus to present a grievance common to your petitioners in the certain assurance that your Honourable House will therefore provide a remedy. "Humbly Sheweth: "That

Whereas the Burgeo Road has received no upgrading or paving in the past two years, and; No. 1.9 R946

"Whereas the Burgeo Road is the longest" - MR. DOYLE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the Minister of Transportation. hon. MR. DOYLE: Quite possibly I am going to have to respond to that petition. I do not know if the microphone$ are working, but I cannot hear a word up here where T am. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for. Burgeo - bay d'Espoir. MR . GILBERT: The petition reads: the Burgeo Road has upgrading or paving three years, and, "That

whereas received no in the past "Whereas, the Burgeo Road is the longest continuous gravel road in Newfoundland, and "Whereas the towns of Burgeo and Ramea are contributing greatly to the economy of this Province through their primary industry, and "Whereas the cost of living and carrying on enterprise in our towns is significantly higher due to the inadequacy of the present road system.

"Therefore: We, the undersigned, petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. to begin a program immediately to upgrade and pave the Burgeo Road. r..re are disgusted with the pol i.tical games being played and wish only to have our transportation problems alleviated. This will result in improvements in the economy o.f our . area through increased tourism, L947 April 19, 1988 Vol XL more high quality fish products being prepared here, and an increase in the service sector. All of which will increase employment levels and generate even more tax dollars.

"We ask only to be treated fairly and with respect and with dignity." Now, that is a familiar cry. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! T may not have gotten exactly what the han. member said, but am I correct in taking it that this petition i.s to the government and not to the House, or did I miss something? MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, you missed the prayer of the petition which said, "with the certain assurance that your han. House." It was to the hon. House. MR. SPEAKER: That is in order then. MR. GILBERT: In the 'THEREFORE' they asked the Government of Newfoundland. MR. SPEAKER: All dght. MR. GILBERT: Very good. Mr.

Speaker, as I satd, it is a familiar. cry from all over Newfoundland t.hat people are asked to be treated fairly, with respect, and with dignity, and to have their roads attended to on a priority basis, rather than for poll tical purposes. It has been pointed out time and time again in this House that the No. 19 R947

provincial government's share of the road paving budget in Newfoundland, the $40 milHon a year, has been used on a political basis. The rationale comes from the fact that this year in the Auditor General's Report the Auditor General pointed out that the list was made up, went to the minister, and somehow, then, it lost the reason why it went in there. The priorities went in, . but we do not know what came out. It was done in veiled and dark secrecy.

The thing we have asked the government in the last three years since I have been a member is to bring the priority list that is submitted by the civil servants in the department to the minister for him to make his decision, to the House. Bring this list to the House, then let the government, if they want, pick out the ones that they want to have for their priorities. But at least bring the priority list to this House and then let it be picked out. Let us debate it here in the House.

So if the government feels that the bottom name on the civi 1 servant's list should go to the top, all r.ight, let them stand up in the House and justify why they made that decision, instead of now where it is done as a deep , dark secret, under the veil of secrecy. The minister will deny there are any political ramifications in the funding of the provincial roads and the $40 million he is spending every year, but the way to get away from it, Mr. Speaker, is for the minister to follow the procedure that we have asked him to do in the last three years.

It would do away with this secrecy, and the thought that it is done on a partisan basis. L948 April 19, 1988 Vol XL The people of Burgeo and Ramea, as you know, are some of the highest paid workers in the Province. I think the medium i.ncome in Burgeo is about 128 per cent of the average. So they ar.e contributing to the economy of Mewfoundland on a fine scale. They are paying their taxes and t.hey are paying a higher cost of living and more for goods that are brought in there, because of the fact that the road is in such a terrible condition.

Every time I mention it in the House when the Premier is her-e he talks about the fact that there has been $13.9 million spent on the Burgeo fish plant to keep it going. I wonder is this the reason that he decided that he wanted to cut off service to Burgeo because of the fact he spent $13.9 million. This seems to be what he is doing. 'We spent this, even though it is paid back, we did spend it to keep this plant going to employ those people who make money and pay taxes. ' Mow, he is saying, 'We are going to cut of.f their service because he did it .• T do not hear him say it when he talks about the St.

Lawrence fish plant, the Bale Verte mines, and the other fish plants in the Province that the government has put money into, I do not hear him say • We have done this so we are not going to do anything else. • It seems that Burgeo has been singled out by the Premier as the one place they put in $13 million and they are now going to cut off services. I think it is time for the Premier to come up with a better argument as to why there has not been any funding for the Burgeo road. As I said in the last petition that I presented from Burgeo, those Mo. 19 R948

people did not want the government to take all the $40 million in the provincial budget but there has not been any money spent on the road in three years. They want a portion of the $40 million that is spent annually by the Department of Transportation. They want a portion of it put into the road. If we took the figure 5 per cent it would be $2 million and $2 million would pave somewhere in the vicinity of four kilometres of road a year.

That would mean that over the last three years we would have twelve or fourteen kilometres of road paved and it would help the people of Burgeo cut out the suffering of having to trave 1. on that road. T am sure the minister ls aware because he had a meet i ng with them last n lght and they out.l ined to him pretty clearly what they feel is the problem with the Burgeo road and what they would like to see happen.

They did not ask that it be done immediately, they did not ask that all the provincial funds be taken and put into it this year, but they asked that a start be made and they also asked that the upgrading and maintenance during the Summer be increased so that they are able to drive over it in safety. Because of the fact that it is the longest continuous dirt road, there are very serious dust problems in the Summer time and there is a safety factor involved. For this reason they are asking if the minister would consider some sort of a chemical treatment on this road.

In view of the fact that it ls not going to be paved this year, they know, but to cut down on the hazards of dri.ving on this road, they are asking for three thi.ngs actually this year: That a start be made on the paving of the road, L949 April 19, 1988 Vol XL that the unpaved portion be graded and maintained in a better fashion than it was last year, and that there be some sort of chemical treatment used to see if they can cut down some of the dust problems to make this road a little safer for the people to drive on.

As I close I say to the minister that the people are very concerned and would like to have the minister address the three things I have outlined. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, it is true I rise in my place as the member for. Fort.une - Hermitage but I cannot forget that in a former time I used to represent the good people of Ramea, nearly 600 of whom have signed that petition.

I used to represent the good people of Burgee whose population depends on this road, the people of Grand Bruit, the people of Grey River, and to a lesser degree in terms of dependence on the road, the people of Francois. Those 5,000 to 6,000 people, Mr. Speaker, thanks to the sensativity of a great federal Liberal government were able to be connected to the Province's road system at a cost of $35 million, a road that was the latest in terms of engineering and construction techniques and a road t.hat, when it was completed, was a first class highway.

Thanks to the neglect of the Department of 't'r.anspor.tatlon and the failure to budget even minimal maintenance funds to look after the upkeep of thl.s road, a road No. 19 R949

that the federal government has put $35 million into to build, this government cannot find enough money to maintain. That, Mr. Speaker, is a good part of the reason why the road is in such desperate shape today. Mr. Speaker, T take pride in standing and supporting my colleague from Burgeo Bay d'Espoir, who Mr. Speaker, is doing a first class job keeping this issue before the public and before the administration. He has my full support and the full support of every member in the official Opposition. This is a cause which, Mr. Speaker needs to be addressed.

What is happening here is a crying shame, that those 5, 000 to 6, 000 people should not benefit more than they do from the largess they contribute to the public treasury. Mr. Speaker, why is it in this day and age, in 1988, that the people of Ramea and the people of Burgeo and Grand Bruit and Grey River and Francois, yes and the people of the communities in Fortune He~itage who at"e in need of road upgrading and Seal Cove and He~i tage and Pool's Cove and Bel.leoram, and T say for the benefit of the gentleman from St.

John's North who knows these places like the palm of his hand, and the people of Belleor.am and St. Jacques, and English Harbout" West and Mose Ambrose and Boxey, and Coomb's Cove, and Wreck Cove - MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. L950 April 19, 1988 Vol XL MR. J. CARTER: The member for Fortune-He~itage is trying to imply ever so subtlety that I am not aware of any part of Newfoundland outside of the Overpass.

Now, this is not correct and I would further add that his protestat i.ons of support: for this par.ti.cular pet i ti.on are extremely transparent because t have yet to see any member of the Opposition come over and speak to the Minister of Transportation privately and say, 'How about it. Is there something you can do?' All you hear is windbaggery. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: And, Hr.

Speaker, Coomb's Cove and Wreck Cove and English Harbour East and Grand Le Pierre, Harbour Mille and Little Harbour East, those communities, together with the ones in Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir, •o~~hy is i.t that those people have to go through such great lengths, including T may say for the benefit of the member for St. John's North, including T may say for h i.s benefit, meetings in Deer Lake last night between the member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir and the mini.ster, who is very generous with his time for delegations from those districts. I have had five delegations before him.

I am lobbying my Leader these days to see if he will make an exception to his dictum that people from that side of the House cannot cross to this side of the House because I say to him, if there is one exception over there Leader, it is the gentleman who is the Minister of Transportation . No. 19 R950

As Mr. Smallwood used to say, there is a man wi. th his heart in the right place. If he could only convenience the heads of the other people at the table of the needs of the road needs in Fortune Hermitage, the needs of the Burgee Road, the subject of this particular petition, then we would be eternally gratful to him. I do want, in conclusion, Mr. Speaker, to remove the slur that the gentleman from st. John's North placed on the Minister o.f Transportation. The Minister of Transportation, contrary to the implication by the member for St. John's North, has been very forthcoming. He has met with no fewer than five delegations from Fortune Herro i tage. He has another such delegation on his

schedule for later this month, April 29, T believe. MR. J. CARTER: Another Speaker. point MR. SPEAKER: of order, A point of order, the hon. member for st. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. the The suggestion has been made that I was criticizing the minister. I was criticizing the members opposite for not coming across and seeing this most accommodating minister at any time and quietly petitioning him, instead of getting up on a lot of windbaggery. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. The han. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: M.r.

Speaker, we are flattered when we get cri tlcism from the L951 April 19, 1988 Vol XL gentleman from St. John's North. That assures us that we are doing the right things in the right way. Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, I just wanted to draw the attention of the House to the fact that it is perhaps time for a return to not only a government here but another stripe of government in Ottawa, so that we can put together the roads agreements that have served t.his Province so well, the roads agreements, the lack of which we are now hurting very much because of. Mr. Speaker, days when agreement? MR.

SPEAKER: do you we had Order, please! recall those an offshore The han. member's time has elapsed. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, just to conclude, an offshore agreement that is going to be the envy of everybody when they see an offshore agreement being cooked up by this administration for electoral purposes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: 't'he hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr..

Speaker, T am pleased, as usual, to have a few words on this petit ion, and to support the good people of Burgee i.n their efforts to have t:hls road upgraded and No. 19 R951

paved. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce to the hon. gentleman, and to everyone here in the House of Assembly, and to all of Newfoundland, that it is government's intention to pave the Burgeo road. I indicated that to the committee last night, Mr. Speaker, when I met with them in Deer Lake. Tt has to be understood, Mr. Speaker, that this is quite a costly and expensive undertaking that both levels of government are going to have to be involved in.

We are talking about an expenditure here of approximately $31 or $32 million, which is quite a sizeable amount, which does not really allow for my department alone to undertake that type of a project out of a $40 million capital programme. Again, to finish the Burg eo road, and there seems to be some conflicting reports going around on what it would cost to complete that road, I have heard, even as recently as a couple of days ago, that people are saying it would cost no more than $5 or $6 million to complete it. That is not true, Mr. Speaker.

It will cost - and these are engineering estimates I am quoting - in the neighborhood of $32 million to complete that road. As I said a moment ago, it will take federal government involvement. Already, Mr. Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland and the federal government have spent about $30 million on that road, ever since 1970. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the Committee last night, every time that we have ever sent a list to Ottawa looking for federal involvement on a number of projects in Newfoundland, the Burgeo road has always been very, very high on the priority list.

L952 April 19, 1988 Vol XL That is the reason, Mr. Speaker, that the road has progressed as far as it has, because this government was interested enough to include the Burgeo road every single time, every opportunity that we had to get federal funding and to become involved in any cost-sharing agreement. 't'hat will continue, Mr. Speaker. We are trying as hard as we can to get a secondary roads agreement with the federal government. Again, the Burgeo road is included as a project that we, as a provincial government, would like to have undertaken.

Again, I repeat that we have spent _approximately $32 million on that road ever since 1970, the most recent work having been undertaken in 1983 1984 when government cost-shared 75/25 with the federal government on an expenditure of $6.5 million for the fifty kilometers of pavement that we have on the Burgee road right now. Mr. on Speaker, as I a number have of indicated different occasions, nothing would please me and the department more than to see the Burgeo road completed. But we cannot, and again T repeat, we cannot undertake that type of an expenditure of $32 million out of a $40 m illi.on capital programme.

But we will continue to make every effort to get an agreement with the federal government and to have the Burgeo road included. Mr. Speaker, also the committee that I dealt with last night mentioned the problems of maintenance on that t"Oad. We had to indicate to them, as I do to the House today, and to your Honcut", that each year my Department spends approximately $1.7 million in maintenance on the No. 19 R952

Burgeo road. It is a very long stretch of road, 150 kilometers, and it does require extensive sums of money each year for mai.ntenance. Also, the hon. member mentioned chemical treatment of the gravel road a moment ago. We do chemically treat the road, Mr. Speaker, but it is only in the bull t up areas. We do not do it for the 150 kilometers. It has to be understood that in order to treat one kilometer of gravel road, you are talking about $2,500 per kilometer of calcium chloride. So, we would be up in the neighbourhood of around $250,000 - $300,000 to fully treat that road with calcium chloride.

This is why we concentrate on the built up areas. Again, Mr. Speaker, I support the petition. I support the people o.f Burgeo and their efforts to get that road paved. If government was not interested in having that work undertaken, we would not to date have cost shared $30 mU lion of an expenditure on that road and we would not be contacting the federal government each time asking that the Burgeo road be included in any listing on a secondary roads agreement. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to make those few comments. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition from 623 residents from Quirpon, Hay Cove, L'Anse-au-Meadows, Noddy Bay, Straitsview, Raleigh, Ship Cove, St. Anthony Bight, Great L953 April 19, 1988 Vol XL Brehat and Boat Harbour. Mr. Speaker, this petition is a model for all members of the House. T would like to read the opening phrase to your Honour: "To the Honourable House of Assembly in Parliament Assembled. The Petition of the undersigned t"esidents of Quirpon," etc. Mt".

Speaker, if hon. members are having problems with petitions, I would suggest they follow this outline from now on and there will be no more need to bring in petitions which are not properly prepat"ed. Mr. Speaker, this extremely civilized petition is and civil, addressed to the House, expressing concern. They are not ask1ng for pavement, so the hon. Minister of Transportation can relax. They are not asking for pavement. They are not even asking that the roads be upgraded, and everybody knows that they should be asking that the roads be upgraded because they have the worst roads in- the Province. Mr.

Speaker, what they are asking for is that the House direct to the Department of Transportation to put more snow clearing equipment on that road, more dependable equipment, and also, - MR. DOYLE: Could you repeat those communit.ies again, please? MR. DECKER: T can do better' than that, I can send the list across to the han. Minister, if you would like to take it across to him. What they are asking fot" is better snow clearing equipment, better maintained snow clearing equipment No. 19 R953

and extra staff. I noticed when I talked about snow clearing that the Minister almost went into a gale of laughter. I am not sure if he is laughing at the petition. I do not think . that he was. Maybe there is some other matter which occurred to him. But, it would not surprise me if the Minister did laugh at a request for snow clearing equipment at this time of the year. It is now practically the last of April and there is not a blade of snow around St.

John's anywhere. r could see the Minister, in a narrow world that he lives in, wondering i.f there is anywhere in the Province of Newfoundland when snow clearing would be an issue at this time of the year. Let me tell the minister that even though this is late in April, snow clearing is still an issue on the Great Northern Peninsula. This backs up the point that I have made so many times to the minister and to this House, that when we talk about snow clearing in Newfoundland, we have to treat that region of the Province, which is North of a line, say from Plum Point across to Roddickton, as being unique. MR.

DAWE: We do. MR. DECKER: That area, Mr. Speaker, has the heaviest snowfall in Newfoundland. The former minister, who was so conscientious when he was there, says, 'We do treat it as being unique. ' What a bunch of foolishness if ever I heard it in my life, Mr. Speaker. How can he say that they treat it as being unique? The only unique road that L954 April 19, 1988 Vol XL the former minister knew about was the Round Pond road, Mr. Speaker, not the Noddy Bay road.

If the han. member were treating that as being unique, he would put three snow clearing shifts on that area between the middle of November and the last of April. Now, that would be treating it as being unique. The residents are not even asking that three snow - clearing shifts be put on. They would be satisfied if two shifts were put on. I tell the minister. that there is no way that he or any other minister can ever do justice to .that particular part of Newfoundland unless he is prepared to put t~,o1o full snow-clearing shifts on during the Winter months, between the middle of November and the last of April.

I do not think it is even realistic to expect the minister to do it now, this time of the year. But I would ask the minister to start the process so that next Fall, if he happens to be there or, as most likely, we are over there, if the process is started, then we can continue on. I would also minister - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! suggest to the The han. member's time has elapsed. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, time is so short. Can I have leave to finish up? MR. SIMMS: We will give the hon. member thirty seconds to clue up. MR. DECKER: Thank you, that is great. No. 19 R954

r want to say to the han. the Minister of Transportation, if he is looking for some money, T want to draw to his attention this impending deal whereby he i.s going to sell the railway. T am assuming that he is going to get $1. 5 billion or maybe $2 billion. For sure it is not going to be less than $1.5 billion, if he is going to get justice for it. r would say that it is going to be $1.5 billion.

That should allow him to free up some money so that he can treat special areas of the Province, like the Great Northern Peninsula, the Northern tip, as being unique and give them the justice and the service that they require. I will wait now, Mr. Speaker, for the han. the Minister of Transportation to get up and support this petition. Do not apologize. Do not try to explain. But support the petition and say, 'yes,' he is going to put the extra equipment on. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thanks to the han. the Government House Leader for gtvtng me leave to pursue the matter a little further. MR. w. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I take some - MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. member for St. John's North. the L955 Apri} 19, 1988 Vol XL MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, T am rising in this House to address Your Honour, but really my remarks on this point of order are to the Leader of the Opposition, because the business o.f the House is r.apidly being brought to a standstill by excessive petitions.

There is no reason why there can not be a quiet approach to the minister, perhaps even the reading of the occasional petition. This House is supposed to have some function, but its function is rapidly being eroded just by demagoguery. I would appeal to the Leader of the Opposition, who seems to have a very tight contt"ol on his caucus, to remedy the situation. I really think it is .i.mportant. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There ls no point of order. There is no limit on petitions, according to our Standing Orders. The hon. the member. for Twi llingate. MR. W.

CARTER: T find it c-egrettable that a member of this House, in this case the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter), would treat so lightly, Mr. Speaker, the petition that was submitted to this House through their duly elected member, signed by 625 people living in that part of our Province, and he thinks that this is a futile exercise. Mr. Speaker, this is the people's House. What other avenue is opened to the 1 people other than to have a petition presented to it through their member? Mr. Speaker, petition, Sir., great deal of No. 19 I support this and I do it with a pride because some R955

of the roads listed here, the road to Raleigh, and the road to st. Anthony Bight, Great Brehat, Boat Harbour, I have some personal knowledge of those roads. In fact, it was during my tenure as the member for that district that two or three of these roads were constructed. It is rather regrettable, Mr. Speaker, twenty some years later these people are now finding it necessary to petition the government through their member to have an effective snow clearing programme i.nst i tuted to t.ake care of these roads.

Roads that were built there by a former T.i.beral Government, we now f i.nd that the present PC Government are unable to even maintain, even keep the snow cleared off roads that were built at the time by a Liberal Government . Mr. Speaker, the people of that area, I know quite a few of them, I know them quite well, are fine, decent hard working people. They are people who have found it extremely difficult over the years to keep body and soul together. It is not easy living in a remote part of our Province on the Great Northern Peninsula.

In fact, one of these communities is probably on the very tip of the Great Northern Peninsula. It is not easy to make a livelihood in that area. I think the very least we can do for these people who, over the years have made very worthwhile contrib¥tions to the economy of our Province, fishermen and the people who have brought in new dollars, I think the very least that we can do for them is to make prov1s1on for snow clearing off roads that have not cost this government anything. In fact, L956 " April 19, 1988 Vol XL they were built long before this government came to power. Mr.

Speaker, I commend the member for the district, my good friend from the Straits (Mr. Decker) for having presented this petition. Of course, we all know this is only one of many petitions that he has presented in the past couple of sessions calling upon the government to accept their responsibilities to the people that he has the honour to represent in this House, the people from places like St. Anthony Bight and Raleigh and Straitsview and Maddy Bay and L'Anse au Meadows.

These are people who through their member are asking the government to do for them what is now being taken for granted, I suppose, by most Newfoundlanders and certainly by most Canadians, and that is to have proper snow clearing facilities provided. I think the minister, Mr. Speaker, will have to make allowance for the fact that he is not dealing here with a community in Key West, Flordia or St. PE'tersburg.

He is dealing with the Great Northern Peninsula where even at this tlme of year, when most parts of our Province are enjoying a snow-free landscape, people in these communities are still forced to contend with considerable amounts of snow. Therefore, it i.s a unique situation. The petition itseLf I think is unique i.n that they arEl not asking for pavement or costly reconstruction or construction jobs. They are merely asking that proper snow clearing equipment be provided. Mr. Speaker, I can only convey to the people concerned, through No. 19 R956

their member and through the news media, I hope, that certainly members on this side and their member were very sympathetic to their problem and to their needs. I know that the member for the district will continue to fight until the minister's opposite agree to accept ' their responsibility and to do it in a way that will be satisfactory to the 623 people whose names appear on this petition. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to stand to have a few words on this petition as well and to indicate to the han. gentleman that I am very much aware o.f the problems associated with snow clearing on the tip of the Northern Peninsula. Mr. Speaker, it is a little hit unbelievable when a member stands in his place and tries to make politics out of the snow clearing efforts of my department. I certainly do not mind when an hon. member comes in with a petition asking for a gravel road to be paved and makes a little hit of politics on that particular issue but, Mr.

Speaker, when a member tries to make political points on snow clearing, it is a little bit much really. Aside from that, Mr. Speaker, I am very much aware of the problems associated with snow clearing on the Northern Peninsula. I am in L957 April 19, 1988 Vol XL daily touch, as a matter of fact, with the depot in Deer Lake every single day to get an updating on what the conditions are on the Northern Peninsula. It is a very, very di.ff icul t area for my department to service in the Wintertime because you are generally operating, as I have said before, in back to back snow storms and very high wind conditions.

We are very well aware, as a department, of the efforts of the various depots in the area and of the Deer Lake depot as well in responding to the problems of snow clearing. That is why we do treat that particular area of the Province as a very special area when it comes to snow clearing and the assigning of snow clearing equipment.

That is why we have approximately thirty personnel operating in that area, and that is why as recently as two or three weeks ago we had thirty-one pieces of equipment on the tip of the Northern Peninsula trying to battle back to back snow storms and tl"'ying to battle very, very windy conditions, approximately thirty personnel and thirty-one pieces of snow clearing equipment. Mr.

Speaker, I have had occasion to talk to some of the operators who are working in that particular area and you find that they will give you reports like you clear twenty .feet of road and you look back and the twenty feet that you have cleared is snowed in again. I cannot see, Mr. Speaker, how that problem could be solved by assigning more equipment. We already have eight snow blowers in the area, a number of ploughs, graders, flyers, and what have you. I believe sincerely from the No. 19 R957

people who are working in that area and operate the depot, I believe them very sincerely when they tell me you can have 150 or 200 pieces of equipment there and it would make absolutely no difference to the operation right now. It has nothing to do with the fact that we do not have a two or three shift system on. Our people, when it is necessary, will work overtime, but thet"e is no point in having people out on the t"oad trying to clear snow when the wind is fifty or sixty kilometet"s an hout" in the middle of a snow stonn.

You have to take the equipment off the road and wait until conditions prevail that will allow the ot"det"ly cleat"ing of snow. We have run into some very, very tough problems on the tip of the Peninsula. That is why we are treating it as a special area. That is why we do have the numbers of people in that area that we pt"obably do not have in any other at"ea of the Province, twenty-nine or thit"ty people and thirty-one pieces of equipment operating on the tip of the Peninsula. I think that should indicate to the hon. gentleman that we do treat it as a special at"ea. So, Mr.

Speaket", it is all very fine to say that the work is not being done, but again I would say to hon. gentlemen, I am in daily touch with that pat"ticulat" area. I know evet"y single moment what is going on on the tip of the Not"thet"n Peninsula in snow clearing. I know when we have to take our snowplow operatot"s and snowblower operatot"s off the road that it has to be done. We do . having L958 not particulat"ly enjoy schools closed fot" two ot" Apt"il 19, 1988 Vol XL three days at a time. That is not something we want to do, Mr. Speaker. So I am pleased to say that we are making a very good effot"t.

I want to compliment the people who opet"ate the snowplows and the snowblowet"s in that particular area and say that they do have a very difficult pt"oblem that we at"e trying to respond to continually. Orders of the Day MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaket", Motion 1, the Budget debate, adjourned by the Minis tel:" of Social Services, I believe, the last day. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. TOBIN: I thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. There are a couple of issues in this year's budget I would like to mention, Mr. Speaker, as they reflect on my own district.

One is funding which has been allocated for the opening of probably the most modern health facility in the Province. In Burin we have a new sixty-five bed facility, Mt". Speaker, with the best of pt"ofessionals, in tet"rns of specialists that we have been tt"ying to t"ecroi t. They have all been put in place, Mr. Speaker, under the recruitment programme started by the hospital committee, and we are now well on our way toward having one of the best medical facilities in this Province. Obviously, that, Mr. Speaker. I chet"ish As well, the support given to t.he No. 19 R958

Marystown Shipyard, in my district, by this administration is something that is indeed deeply appreciated by the people of the entire Burin Peninsula. I would suspect that in the past few years we have had hundreds of millions of dollars worth of new construction created there by this administration and, as well, Mr. Speaker, we are now involved in the construction o.f FPI trawlers, which are subsidized very heavily by both the Province and the federal government. For that, I am very grateful to the administration. Mr.

Speaker, we can go on and list some very positive things which affect my district, as it relates to the budget. In the area of fisheries there is the new secondary processing plant at Burin and the refit plant at Burin. It is an excellent plant, Mr. Speaker, a plant that real good production is coming from. It is the plant which the FPI people have been very successful with in exploring and securing markets in the countries of China and Japan. Mr.

Speaker, I say all of that, of course, realizing that the Leader of the Liberal Party in this Province has come out and, I guess, in a backhanded way, smacked every fisherman and fisherperson in this Province as it relates to his stand on the fishing industry. All one has to do is read the recent copy of Maclean's magazine in which it is stated that the Premier of New Brunswick, Mr.

Frank McKenna, is totally opposed to the Meech Lake Accord, and the reason he gave is that Newfoundland would have mot"e say, . because our Premier had been L959 April 19, 1988 Vol XL successful Newfoundland's in putting case by the other premiers in Canada, and having that included for the next round of constitutional discussions. The Premier of Nova Scotia, Mr. Speaket", is opposed to Newfoundland having mot"e say over its fishet"y. Gordon Cummings, President of National Sea, was quoted in the same

article as being opposed to Newfoundland, and to our Premiet". Evet"ything is there about Pt"emier Peckfot"d being able to get this on the table, and everybody is totally disgusted in that part of Canada because out" Premiet" has been successful in getting this involved in the next t"ound of constitutional discussions. Now, Mr. Speaker, what happens when the Premier and his Ministet" of Fisheries go to discuss at the Constitutional Confet"ence the fishing industry as it t"elates to this Province, and ft"om which thet"e will be money det"ived in terms of all sorts of programmes.

The Pt"emier will sit down at that table and he will make his case. I have had the oppot"tunity of being with the Premiet" at sevet"al First Ministers' Conferences and Premiers' Confet"ences and, Mt". Speaker, I can assure you that I was indeed very pt"oud to be a membet" of his govet"nment. Because the leadership of the Premier at these conferences is second to none. He is absolutely second to none! I can tell a story, Mt".

Speaket", when the opportunity presents itself, about what David Peterson, the Premier of Ontario, once said about the Pt"emier of Newfoundland being such a great statesman and how he conducts himself. I can tell that. Mt". Speaker, what happens when the No. 19 R959

Premier sits down at that table to discuss Newfoundland having more jurisdiction over its fisheries? We know that the new Liberal Premier of New Brunswick is opposed to Newfoundland having more say over the fisheries, and we know that Nova Scotia is having second thoughts about their support of that. But where does the Premier place himself when the Prime Minister of Canada and the other Premiers look at him and say, 'Well, Brian, boy, you do not come here representing Newfoundland.

The Liberal Party in Newfoundland and the Liberal Leader in Newfoundland say that your government is out to lunch because you want more say or more jurisdiction over the fisheries.' The Liberal Leader, Mr. Speaker, in this House Ghould forget the fact that he is one of these untouchable lawyers and should face the reality of Newfoundlanders and realize that this is a fishing Province, Mr. Speaker.

People in my constituency depend very heavily on the fisheries and I doubt if they take very lightly the fact that the Leader of the Liberal Party is opposed to Newfoundland having any more say or jurisdiction over the fisheries. I would also think, Mr. Speaker, when unanimity is not shown on such a vital issue as this, when the Premier presents his case with regard to the fisheries, when they know that there is another political party in this Province that is adamantly opposed to Newfoundland having more say and jurisdiction over the fisheries, they are going to have a cause.

I mean, Frank McKenna, fellow, by the way, who Marystown occasionally L960 April 19, 1988 a fine comes to for his Vol XL holidays in the Summertime, a good fellow - as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I know of a situation, not too long ago, where Premier McKenna said, 'Boy, we have to watch what Peckford is up to on the fisheries.' That happened, Mr. Speaker, just a few weeks ago, in conversation with another good friend of mine.

But the fact of the matter is, the Leader of the Liberal Party in Newfoundland has given ammunition to these individuals, has provided them with an avenue to say that Newfoundlanders do not support what you are saying. To me, Mr. Speaker, that is shameful. As well, I was surprised to see the member for Twillingate stand up in this House this afternoon -­ I must say, Mr. Speaker, I was disappointed - to lend his support to that. I was not surprised that he def led his leader and did not come into this House with the scurry and the vicious vendetta tactics, the worse kind of tactics.

I was not surprised that the member for Twillingate did not get involved in that, Mr. Speaker. I can say right now, there is no doubt in my mind that the conduct we saw displayed in this House this afternoon by the members opposite, particularly the member for Port de Grave and the member for St. Barbe, was instigated by the Leader of the Liberal Party. There is no doubt about that. This pious, holier-than-thou individual is the most superficial individual who probably ever stood in this House; he is as transparent as this water glass.

That type of at tack we witnessed this afternoon, that personal attack on the integrity of people such as the Minister of Education, is totally uncalled for and shows the people of Newfoundland and No. 19 R960

Labrador the Liberal Party. MR. MITCHELL: leadership of the There is no leadership. They had to buy their leadership to begin with, so what do you expect? You only get what you pay for. MR. TOBIN: Well, I guess, what the hon. member said is certainly food for thought. It is a very valid point. But I want to say that I was not surprised when the member for Twi11ingate did not get involved in that at, I am sure, the request of his Leader. I have no dif f icu1 ty, Mr. Speaker, and I do not think anyone in this House has any difficulty, with the fact that the member for Port de Grave got involved in it.

The Member for Port de Grave is probably one of the most shallow members in this House, and one of the most shallow members to ever sit in this House. But I can say that this type of conduct, which is engineered and designed and promoted by the Leader of the Liberal Party, will not sit well - will not sit well - with the people of Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, I have to go back to the at tack the Leader made on me this weekend. I would like to, but I will not, tell about a call I had this morning from - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tell us about it! it! MR. TOBIN: Tell us about No, I will not. .

I have already told you about it. I have already told you about a call I had this morning related to my comments yesterday on the Leader of the · Opposition. When he wants to talk L961 April 19, 1988 Vol XL about conduct in this House, cannot the Leader of Opposition tell the people Newfoundland and Labrador who paying him money. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: why the of is Why should that be a secret? Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Premier in Nova Scotia resigned from cabinet a few days ago because some people paid off his debts, as I understand it.

Now, what is the difference between that and accepting money from the business community to pay your salary? I would assume that with your salary you make payments, or whatever you do with. I know I have a lot to make with my salary. I have a lot of payments to make, I can assure you of that. MR. SIMMS: His salary is three times as large as (inaudible) members over there. MR. TOBIN: That is right! That is right! Now, Mr. Speaker, what is the difference?

Why should the Deputy Premier in Nova have to resign because someone paid off his bank debts, or whatever it was, when the Leader of the Opposition here can accept tens of thousands of dollars a year from business people in this Province? Can someone tell me the difference? Now, Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition wants to talk about conduct in this House, he had better clean up his own act first. He had better clean up his own act first, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 19 R961

MR. PATTERSON: A paymaster is in the gallery today. MR. TOBIN: That is where we are coming from, Mr. Speaker. I believe that is the level to which the Leader of the Opposition has dragged this House of Assembly since he came in here. What does the member for Waterford - Kenmount say, Mr. Speaker? Does the member for Waterford Kenmount agree with his Leader that st. John's is a parasitic city? Does the member for Waterford Kenmount agree with that or does he not? When is he going to stand up, Mr. Speaker, and disassociate himself from those comments from the Leader of the Opposition? Is he going to?

We have it here in black and white. Does the member for Waterford - Kenmount - that is a good question - support his Leader in saying that st. John's is a parasitic city? AN HON. MEMBER: Paradise. MR. TOBIN: Paradise. that when Brook. Well, he may have meant he moved from Corner Does the member for Waterford Kenmount have the courage to address the issue of how his leader feels about this city to his constituents and to the people of St. John's? Does the member for Waterford - Kenmount have the courage to address that? Does he believe that? I . doubt it very much.

I have to say that I honestly believe the member for Waterford Kenmount is a very genuine, decent individual. I L962 April 19, 1988 Vol XL really believe that, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: T do not know how he became a Liberal. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I call it as I see it. I call it as I see it, the same as I did with the member for Bonavista North, Mr. Speaker, and some of these people. And I have no difficulty in saying that.

I think, to a large extent, the member for Twillingate showed some decency today by doing what I am sure was refusing a demand from his leader to get involved in the aspersions and the dirt, all of this we witnessed here today, and I commend the member for Twillingate for that. Now, the member for Mt. Scio Bell Island stood in this legislature in front, or by, or side-by~side all his colleagues on Fdday and said that the Liberal party is frozen in time. Well, it is not pre-1980, it is pre-1970. Mr. Speaker, the member for Mt.

Scio - Bell Island was saying that right now the Liberal party was back in the Smallwood years. By the way, Mr. Smallwood did a fairly good job for Newfoundland when he brought us into Confederation. Mr. Speaker, I am proud to say that I was born a Canadian, unlike most of the people. I guess, the member for St. Barbe can probably say it, and the member from Stephenville. AN HON. MEMBER: And St. John's North. MR. TULK: I was born a Canadian. MR. TOBIN: The member from Fogo says he was No. 19 R962

born a Canadian. MR. R. AYLWARD: I was born a Canadian. MR. TOBIN: No, you were not born a Canadian. MR. R. AYLWARD: No, I was born a Kilbrider. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I am proud to be able to say that I was born a Canadian, and I really mean that. And I am sure that the member for St. Barbe is proud of it, and the member for Stephenville. Some of us younger people are extremely proud to be able to say that. But what the member for Mt. Scio - Bell Island was saying is that the Liberal party is indeed frozen in time, back where they used to be.

That is coming fr-om the immediate past Leader- of the Liber-al par-ty; I think there have been nine since the Premier became Premier of Newfoundland nine in seven years. When he makes that kind of statement, what does that say to the people of Newfoundland as it relates to the official Opposition? I think it says that the Leader- of the Liberal party has set that par-ty back by that per-iod of time. The other thing he said, Mr. Speaker, is that he is now supporting the Meech Lake Accord; he is going to stand on principle and support the Meech Lake Accord.

What happens to all the rest o.f the member-s who, prior to Mr. Wells accepting the Leadership of the Liberal party, supported the Meech Lake Accord? Where is their pr-inciple? Do they have the same principle and the same beliefs as the member- for Mt. Scio Bell Island? Do they, Mr. L963 April 19, 1988 Vol XL Speaker? Can Liber-al policy and the philosophy of the Liberal party change so drastically as it relates to the Meech Lake Accord? Because leader-s change the whole policy changes. Is that, Mr. Speaker, were the Liberal party is coming from? Is that the pr-inciple, Mr. Speaker, that the member for Mt.

Scio - Bell Island r-efer-s to? Now, Mr. Speaker, we can go on on a whole pile of issues as it relates to this. We can go on and we can say that we on this side of the House are not at all satisifed wi. th the level of decorum and the manipulative manner in which the Leader of the Opposition has placed this Assembly. The Leader- of the Opposition should remember- that we ar-e a group of poll ticians, all fifty-two of us, and that we are in a Chamber called the House of Assembly. We are not in a Court of Law. We do not pr-actice law, Mr-. Speaker, we practice politics.

I practice politics, and I am sure every member over there pr-actices politics. MR. GILBERT: I do not practice politics. MR. R. AYLWARD: They need a lot of pr-actice over­ there. MR. TOBIN: You do not practice politics. Mr. Speaker, I am not surpr-ised that the member for Burgeo Bay d'Espoi.r- does not practice poll ti.cs. That does not surpr-ise me a whole lot. As a matter- of fact, Mr. Speaker, we all know about the member for Bur-geo - Bay d'Espoir, when he came in her-e and complained about the r-ailway, yet he had a business that would not No. 19 R963 r---

even use it, the same businessmen, by the way, the member for Burgeo as most not just Bay d' Espoir; most business people in Newfoundland did not use it, and that is why it is in the condition it is in. Mr. Speaker, I guess my two minutes are cluing up. I just want to say, as it relates to the budget, that I am very happy with the amount of progress that has been made.

In terms of the new hospital for the Burin Peninsula, I am sure that the member for Fortune Hermitage is very satisfied to see the new hospital is going to open in Salt Pond this year, as the Board of Directors is made up of representation from his constituency as well and, I might say, making some very valuable imput. We are satisfied with that. But it is a long way from the policies of the Liberal government, when the Leader was in here in the dying days of the Smallwood administration, when one of the former, former leaders of the Liberal Party, Mr.

Roberts, went to the Burin Peninsula and announced their strategy for health care on the Burin Peninsula, which was to build a hospital in Clarenville and put an improved ambulance service on the Burin Peninsula. Now, the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, has the gumption to talk about the lack of health care in this Province when that is the way he was going to treat the people of the Burin Peninsula. I am looking forward, Mr.

Speaker, as I said, to continuous support for the Marys town Shipyard, I am looking forward to continuous support for the fisheries, and I L964 April 19, 1988 Vol XL am looking forward to continuous support for the recreational and capital grants in my district, where I have seen some very significant improvements. I am looking for.ward to some very sign 1. ficant. road improvements in my district, Mr. Speaker.

I know that in the past two years we have been able to pave communities like Brookside, Boat Harbour, Baine Harbour, Rushoon, Parkers Cove, Red Harbour, Spanish Room, John the Bay, Marystown, Burin, Epworth and Winterland. We have been able to pave these communities, Mr. Speaker, and spent a considerable amount of funds. As a matter of fact, right now in my district work has already started on a project which the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Dawe) started when he was Minister of Transportation, the Creston causeway, a very valuable road connection, Mr. Speaker.

The contract was awarded - they are now back working at it again this year and I am looking forward to the completion of that. AN HON. MEMBER: How did you get all that? MR. TOBIN: I am a good member. That is how I got it. I am looking forward, Mr. Speaker, to the continuation of capital works in terms of water and sewer to add on to the many millions, Mr. Speaker, that have been spent in my district since I got elected. I am looking forward to that continuing as well. I know that in several areas we have done exceptionally well, and I recognize that.

The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has been exceptionally good to the district of Burin - Placentia West. We can look at the many millions, Mr. Speaker, I would say the hundreds No. 19 R964

of millions, that have come into Burin - Placentia West since I was elected and I am extremely proud of that and grateful to the government for that kind of support. I know, Mr. Speaker, that that type of support will indeed continue. I am looking forward, through the Minister of Transportation. because of the several meetings that I have had. to continued support. and through the meetings I still have ongoing with the Minister of Fisheries. continued support as it relatles to my district. I look forward to the continuation of the support I have received from the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth.

So all in all we have done exceptionally well in the district of Burin Placentia West. The government has been extremely good to us. I am grateful for that and I want to say that I encourage all members of the Legislature, particularly members on the other side, to visit my district to look at the prosperity that we have since I was elected. In terms of development - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. TOBIN: Yes. it is a very good part of the Province. There is a lot of work taking place down there right now. The FPI trawlers have the shipyard going extremely well. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up . MR. TOBIN: I will clue up, Mr. Speaker, if T may, by saying that if any Newfoundland Liberal brass thought L965 April 19, 1988 Vol XL of supporting former Cabinet minister Clyde Wells as leader of the provincial party, they suffered a setback last night. Former Premier. Joey Smallwood, told a Liberal gathering that he would leave the party. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I hold in my hands a copy of the l988 budget where some $2.9 billion is going to be spent in 1988 on the economy in Newfoundland.

We just heard a minister of that Cabinet, t.o whom we have to approve this budget, stand to his feet for thirty minutes and make absolutely no reference whatsoever to what is contained in this book. Make no wonder. Mr. Speaker, the economy of Newfoundland. the people of this Province, the health care, the education system. the Department of Municipal Affairs, the Department of Transportation. and every other department is in the deplorable condition that it is in today. When you have the mentality of who has just spoken about for the last thirty minutes. how can we have anything else but desperation? Mr.

Speaker, I want to make a couple of references, at the very outset. to some of the comments the Minister of Social Services made. The Minister of Social Services clearly said that he is proud of the Premier and the work he has done. T would say to the Minister of Social Services that after listen~ng to that speech, the Premier would not say that he No. 19 R965

is proud of him. I would say that is the reason the Premier is not sitting in his seat. I will give one compliment to the Minister of Social Services, he is a very conscientious minister. Let me give you an example of how dedicated he is to the social service recipients of Newfoundland, and especially of his district. He was so conscientious in the last election that he hand delivered cheques from the Department of Social Services to his constituents. MR. TULK: That was very good of him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

EFFORD: Now, there is a Minister of Social Services who is really conscientious about his people. There is a man who is really concerned, to take the cheques and go around and deliver them door to door. There are not too many people in this Province who would do that, believe me. I compliment the minister for doing so. Mr. Speaker, just recently, before the House of Assembly opened, I was asked by the Leader of the Opposition to shadow an extra department post over last year. One of them was Social Services last year, but this year I was asked to shadow Health. Mr.

Speaker, I must say from the outset, day one - MR. BAIRD: You would not shadow a groundhog. MR. EFFORD: Mr. not L966 Speaker, a very from day difficult April 19, 1988 one job it was to do Vol XL when we get the type of ministers as we have witnessed here this afternoon in Question Period, like the Minister of Social Services standing to his feet and going on with that sort of display, instead of making references to the people in need in this Province. Let me gi.ve you one example of what the Minister. of Social Services could have made reference to in his department.

He said when he became Minister of Social Services he had a background as a social worker. We accept that. We know that. We had thought, as all people in this Province, that despite the desperate situation the Department of Social Services was into, he would bring some new ideas and new energy to the department. We listened to him in the news media, but since day one when he took over the Department of Social Services we have not seen any change whatsoever, absolutely no change as far as bettering the lives of people.

We have seen a change, yes, cutbacks, decreases and further strains put. on our people in the Province. Let me give you an example in what the minister says. A resident of the member for Harbour Grace's district phoned me Sunday. He •o11as travelling back and forth to Carbonear. Hospital where he was receiving fourteen dollars. He is now cut back to five dollars to go from Spaniard's Bay to Carbonear. He has no vehicle. He has to hire a taxi. We are talking about eighteen miles. That is one cutback. MR. FUREY: How about a limousine? MR. EFFORD: a cutback.

I asked the That is minister in Question Period there No. 19 R966

last week if there was a policy in his department that they had just recently adopted not to pay any more light bills that were in arrears to Newfoundland Light and Power pending the court case. I never saw a minister in my life come out of his Chair and go running around like that to all of his officials saying, 'Is that right? Is that right?' That is exactly what the minister did. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: I asked the minister if he was aware? MR. TULK: He did not know. MR. EFFORD: The situation is, it is not written in the books. The word was passed down by word of mouth.

No question, no misunderstanding of that. The minister does not adopt any policies that are not in writing. He has no control over his department. He has no idea of what is going on in his department. He does not know about the manager in Harbour Grace. He does not know the manager in Twi llingate or some other t"ural area. He has no idea whatsoever'. MR. TOBIN: Be cat"eful now. MR. EFFORD: No problems with being careful. Here is a situation: We have a widow, take any ~xample, use any person in this Province who needs to live, who needs a decent amount of money to buy gt"oceries.

She is not asking for a luxurious travel estimates like the minister had L967 April 19, 1988 Vol XL last year with ovet" $50,000 tt"avelling at"ound the Province and tt"avelling around the countt"y, and $57,000 for minister's assistants tt"avelling at"ound the world. MR. TULK: Parliamentary assistants. MR. EFFORD: Parliamentary assistants, $57,000. AN HOM. MEMBER: What? Go on with you. MR. EFFORD: The member for Carbonear (Mr. Peach) had one particular trip, goes to New Brunswick, takes his family with him and spends $2,200 of taxpayers money. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! MR.

EFFORD: Shame! MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) on t"ecord. MR. EFFORD: It is on recot"d and copies of the bills. producing it. we have the No pt"oblem And yet a widow in this Province - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HOM. MEMBER: I never had a widow. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: will go to the Department of Social Set"vices -· let me tell you No. 19 R967

about it! Let me give you one example, one woman, who went to the Department of Social Services for a decent income, she was only allowed $250. She was asked to have some funnels replaced on her stove and a financial adviser from the department told her, 'No, we cannot, we have cutbacks. We are not allowed to spend the money. ' That is the kind of example. Mr. Speaker, we have a situation down here in the Boys' Home in Pleasantville. Let us talk about a caring minister. Let us talk about a minister who has not adopted any policies.

We have a situation down here in the Boys' Home in Pleasantville where it is absolutely disgraceful where any human being would have to live under these conditions. You can throw all the sneers, you can make all of the accusations, you can do what you like, but it is absolutely disgraceful in this day and age. It would not happen in the twelfth century let alone the twenty-first century.

It is absolutely unbelievable that they have to 1 i ve in conditions where the snow is blowing in on the bed, where they have to go to bed with no heat, where you can stand inside and see daylight shining not through the windows but through the cracks around the windows outside. We bring it before the minister's attention and what does he say? 'We are looking at the situation.' We can talk about salaries. Now, of course, now the minister - MR. DINN: You will not repeat anything you say inside the House outside so it must be untrue. MR. EFFORD: L968 April 19, 1988 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. member for Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn) would pay more attention and realize the trains are running over him by what I am saying, we will get on with some messages here in this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: is time a solid we have Mr. Speaker, I think it for the Premier to take look. Number one, twenty-three Cabinet positions. Is that correct? AN HON. MEMBER: Twenty-two and a half. MR. EFFORD: Twenty-two and a half. We will call it twenty-two Cabinet positions.

Just think let us talk dollars and cents - about the amount of money that is spent in salaries, in o.f f ice furni tut"e, in press secretaries, in parliamentary assistants, in just the minister's offices. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (GreeninK): Order, please! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, forget about the salaries that are sent out to the people, the civil servants, just the people around the minister's office alone. We are talking millions and millions of dollars. MR. TULK: Order, Mr. Speaker? MR.

EFFORD: Forget about hundreds of that those the tt"avel, the thousands of dollars ministers and their' No. 19 R968

assistants spend in travel each year. Forget about the money they spend on cars and just the money on office furniture. When we expect poor people in this Province to suffer the way they suffering, we see this amount of expenditure. Here come the highlights: We have twenty-two and a half Cabinet positions. In the Department of Social Service you are talking some $60 million expenditure in salaries. Just think about this, $60 million plus expenditure salaries. The same in the Department of Public Works.

On top of spending that amount of money, the government has now advertised in Newfoundland and in The Globe and Mail across Canada and in Ontario to bring in a group of consultants to tell the minister and his officials how to implement policy and ho"r to run his department. Just imagine! We are already spending $60 million dollars plus on salaries to run the department, millions of dollars on administration, millions on the minister's own office, and we are going to bring a group of people in from Ontario to tell us how to run the Department of Social Services. Now, can you just imagine?

Just think about this scenario. Can you just imagine a consulting firm on Bay Street with a business income - forget about the personal income of millions of dollars that is going to come down to the Province of Newfoundland and tell Mrs. Jones and Mr. Smith how to live in this Province and that he should live on less than $500 a month? Can you imagine the situation that our people in this Province are going to be placed • ? . 1n. L969 Apr.i l 19, 1988 Vol XL Tt is going to cost in the vicinity and I am only estimating. I do not know what the tender is.

I have asked the minister and he will not return an answer - of $250,000 to $300, 000 to pay a consulting group to come into this Province to tell the Minister of Social Services how to run his department, a Mr. Speaker, whom we confidence in - MR. PEACH: minister, had great A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Housing. MR. PEACH: Mr. Speaker, just to correct the record, the member for Port de Grave a few minutes ago, while I was walking out and coming back in again, misinformed the House with information that he was relating to parliamentary secretaries.

He was referring to myself when I was a parliamentary secretary to social policy. T want to just correct the record, Mr. Speaker, without taking up the member's valuable time. In my term, as parliamentary secretary to the Social Policy Commit tee, I submit ted all of the information that was available that was requested by the members opposite. It was all scrutinized and they came to the conclusion that there was some twenty-nine dollars that they were not satisified with. In that, and the member has no documentation to show otherwise, although he said it, I did, Mr.

Speaker, travel in my role as parliamentary secretary to New Brunswick for the Summer Games, as the gentleman had said. However, my wife or anyone else who went with me did not cost this No. 19 R969

·. government any money. I went in my job as parliamentary secretary accompanying the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth on an invitation to attend the Summer Games. It is not correct for the member to stand in his place and say that I or my family spent any taxpayers' money of this Province representing the Province in or out of the Province. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. The han. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, just to make one little quick reference.

I said very clearly that the minister travelled as a parliamentary secretary to New Brunswick, he spent $2,200 dollars and on the same trip he took his family. I did not say his .family spent any money. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, could T have protection? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, number one, there is a much cheaper way of going to New Brunswick than taking a vehicle and driving. Taxpayers' money, $2,200 to go to New Brunswick, when you could go to Vancouver and back for much less than $2,200.

Be very careful about what the member for Carbonear, the Minister of L970 April 19, 1988 Vol XL Housing is making about, Mr. Speaker. statements Mr. Speaker, the budget. the kind of let us get back to Let us get back to waste - we have the same reference in the Department of Public Works. We have a department with multi-millions of dollars being spent in administration fees to properly run that department. That is what · people get paid salaries for. No question about it. We have no argument with any person within the department getting a fair and decent salary to do his job properly.

That is what this budget is approved for. That is what we pass the estimates for when we go over the salaries. But the same thing, Mr. Speaker, that has taken place in the Department of Social Services is taking place in the Department of Public Works. For a consulting firm to have to come into this Province, either within the Province or outside the Province, to tell an administration how to run the department, that is disgraceful.

If we could take that amount of money that is going to pay to that consulting firm and divide it up, number one, to the needy people in this Province and people who are living far, far below the poverty line, $8,000 and $9,000, or, let us use the Department of Health. Let us use the Health Sciences. Just recently this week we heard about the problems in the intensive care unit of the Health Sciences, eleven beds, twelve patients waited ten to twelve days to go into the operating room for bypasses.

If we took that $250,000 and spent it in the rcu in the Health Sciences we would get a great deal more benefit out No. 19 R970

of it than what is taking place in the department of Social Services. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, this government is like any other business in this Province or in Canada. It is a large business with a very large amount of money incoming and a very large amount equally outgoing. You have to know where your priorities are. You cannot spent it on whims. You cannot spent it with the capabilities of ministers such as the Minister of Social Services who explained for himself that certainly he is not capable, after the speech he gave for thirty minutes. You cannot spent it on incompetence.

That is what is taking place in this administration. That is why the people of this Province are placed in the situation they are in today. That is exactly it, the incompetence of this administration. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, the good part about it is that we have no longer any need to convince the people of this Province that is what is taking place. Every individual in this Province you can speak to from the beginning of the week until the end knows full well the type of administration and the lack of competence in this body of people. They are ready.

I have heard the . members and the ministers opposite make accusations, 'Ah, you are going to lose your seat the next time, you are not going to win your seat the · next time. ' L971 April 19, 1988 Vol XL I say to each and every minister, call the election, issue the rite, we will see who will win the government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Tell your Premier to call or issue the rite, issue it today, issue it tomorrow morning, we will see. We have not got to convince the people. In fact, I will make is easy for you.

I will sit home in my house, I will not even go out and campaign and I will beat anybody from that side who would come out and take me on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: That ls how sure the people of Port de Grave are. They know full well that this party is the alternative to the mess that is on the other side. Mr. Speaker, let us look at. the situation in the Department of Health, some $661 million ls budgeted this year to run the health needs of this Province. One of the first things that comes out of the budget is we get. the Minister of Finance (Mr. Windsor) and the Minister of Health (Dr.

Collins) issuing statements that they are going to cutback on eye services, the optometrists from one year to once every two years to save the people of the Province $500,000. Just imagine! Out of all the things around this Province we are going to cut back on the services that people need to get their eye examinations from once every year to once every two years to save $500,000. I do not mind saving money. I am No. 19 R971

a fo~er business person and I think it is good economics to save money where you possibly can. But, any businessman with any brain whatsoever, should realize that you must get your priori ties straight. Now, do we save it on the backs of the sick, on the backs of the blind, on the backs of social services, or do we save it on what is on the cover of this disgusting book? Is that where we save the money? I suggest to the President of Council (Mr..

Simms), the Deputy Premier for a short time, that if we had took some of the $20 million plus that i:J being wasted on this and put into the needs of the people, we would not be placed in the situation today that a Minister of Finance and a Minister of Health would have to implement a programme that is going to effect the optometrists of this Province and the opthalmologists of this Province and the basic people of this Province, the senior citizens and the children who need their eye examination. It is going to put a strain on those people.

But the politics of it is we, as a party, have not got to go out and tell those people about the mistake made. They know. They read. They listen to the television. They know the mistake is made, and it is another nail driven in the coffin of the Tory Government. Make no mistake about it, they are quite capable of driving nails themselves. We do not have to do it. That is one of the good parts about being able to sit in this Opposition group and see the mistakes day after day implemented by these people. L972 April 19, 1988 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, let us go to the Department of Fisheries.

Very few ministers on the opposite side we not talking personal, we are talking ministers very few ministers I have a great deal of respect for, but the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) I have a great deal of respect for. I believe that the Minister of Fisheries is a concerned individual. I have no doubt that he really does have the concerns of the fishermen of this Province at heart, no question about it. Mr. Speaker, the very serious prob 1 em is that the Minister of Fisheries cannot get what ls in hi.s heart up in his head. He cannot get the t.wo of them working together.