Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, JUNE 5, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 47

June 5, 1975. Tape 2081, The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: ------- The honourable Member for Fogo. CAPT. EARL W. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present a petition RH - 1 on behalf of the Carmanville Local Educational Committee. I might add, Mr. Speaker, and give a little background that that Committee consists of the voters from Davidsville, Carmanville, Frederickton, Noggin Cove, Aspen Cove and Ladle Cove. The prayer of the petition is that :

whereas the schools of Carmanville school system are in a much less desirable condition,and

whereas there is need for new school buildings in this system,and

whereas the Board of Education is unable to supply these needs because of insufficient fj_nancinr for operational and capital expenditure, ue the undersigned request the Provincial Government to see that e.ither the Provincial Govern­ ment separately or in co-operation with the Federal Government provide the Terra Nova Integrated School Board the necessary finances to provide the operational and capital expenditure for Carmanville achoo! system required by the accompanying brief.I understand, J1r.

Speaker, that the honourable Minister of Education was presented with a brief a co11ple of days ago and I may refer to one or two paragraphs of that brief. It reads, "The children are our most important resource. It is these people who will be the decision makers of the twenty-first century. That century will be a more complex and fragmented society than thiA world has ever witnessed. Children are the most vulnerable and pliable creatures in existence. As such it is the responsibility of the older

section of society to see that our young people receive the best possible educational enviroTIJ11ent in order th11t we nurture a more human and just society. Again, in the twenty-first century humanism may be as important, if not more important than technical 6257

June 5, 1975. ,, and professional knowledge. Tape 2'•84 RH - 2 ~- Speaker, the recommen<lations are that the government of lle'l\'foundland.and Labrador either of its ovn accord or tbrough agreement with the Federal Government ta1ce immediate steps to see that necessary funds to implement immediately the capital structure ·required J>y already erl.sting pl.ans for the Can!anville school aystem. !n supporting this petition, Mr.

Speaker, I have visited many of the schools in the Carmanville schoo .l f'ystem and I find one or· ~ and perhaps three to be verv old buildings, wooden buildings and they lack the facilities which the children of the day so ffil d:e!;lerve. ~- S1ieaker, if we do not build ari.d provide s _ound bodies 6258

Tape 2085 RH - 1 as well as sound mind then I am afraid we are heading for a very weak society in the future. ~r. Speaker, I wholeheartedly support this petition and ask that it be laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Burgeo. MR. A. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce a petition ,mich was handed to me by the local improvement district of Isle aux Morts. I will read the petition.

"We, the undersip.ned, being bona fide residents of Isle aux Morts rlo s trongly protest anv attem11t to send our high school students out of Isle aux Morts. Ile herebv state that we are determined not to do so. Our reasons are obvious. By the Fall of 1976 we should, allowing for dropouts, have from 150 to 170 pupils from grade seven to grade eleven. We consider moving that number of children is ridiculous as this would be sufficient for a high school of our own. Furthermore, anyone who has any regard for human life would not even consider letting a child ~e bused around Clarkes Cove or Round Pond Hill.

It would be a disaster. We therefore demand that the school be built on the site selected to accommodate the high school students from Bird Islands and Rose Blanche and that a high school be constructed at Isle aux Morta out of the money saved by the reduction in size to the school already planned and by eliminating the need for three or four huses from here. No other alternative will be accepted by us." That petition is signed by 330 residents of Isle aux ~orts. There were thirty-one people who did not sign. So that gives us ninety-two per cent.

Now in supporting that petition there are a few facts that I would like to present. The Department of Highways, the western division, the superintendent says in no way could he sanction the use of a bus between Isle aux Morts and Bird Islands. It is not fit to risk the lives of our children and the people in that area know that and they are determined not to. But, of course, there is one thing I want to emphasize, that they are in agreement with a school being constructed for the people in Bird Islands and 6259

.Tune 5, 1975. Tape zr,ss RH - 2 Isle aux Morts,or Rose Blanche rather, and tl,e Department of Highways has sanctioned the use of that

section of road as being a normal road for ,,1evfoundland. I would sav that I not on:ly support it but I applaud the guts of the people in Isle aux r<orts and everyone who went around ,·•ith tl1is petition. I think the day is past when someone who is not even an elected representative but an appointee to a school 1·oard can loo\.-: up and tell the people, you send ycntr children here because Pe say so whether it is going to tal<e life or not. Anyone here in this House, including myself, who would not .<3upport such a petition as this is not fit to sit here. }fr.

Chairman, I ask that this petition be laid on the table of this House and referred to the department to which it relates. '.·'R. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. ''R. S. EEARY: Hr. Speaker, at the end of the raember's remarks there, S:ir, these were pretty strong words, pretty tough words and I could do no less I su11r>ose after that veiled threat and to stand in my place in tl,is honourable House, Sir, and support the ryrayer of the petition so al·Jv nresented hy my friend from the district of nurr,eo La Poile.

Fow, Sir, I must say that the !'.emher for Rurgeo LaPoile, Sir, """ n0t hentinr, his f!;UIIlS vhen he introduced this netition and I want to put raembers' minds at rest, Sir, and say that the me~ber did not ,ct t11ese molars for half price from the J!C'·nber for Harbour Grace nnd he did certainly give us soMethinrr to get our teeth into here j n tM s petition, Sir. 11r. Speaker, I Must say that I could not really follow the line of reasoning of the petition. There appears to he dissention hetween the various corrnnunjties represented by my fri<:>ncl. the Member for Burgeo.

The people in Isle aux Morts are asldng that the school children, thP young children not be bused to Bird Islands ~•here the school board, I presume, proposes to build the school. I under.stand, ~r. Speaker, that there is another petition on the Fay from the people of Bird Islands ,ind Rose Blanche to have the school built as originally plannPd and 1-hat the school board proceed ir-tth its original plan, 6260

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2086 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: So we are going to have a situation, I would suggest, in that district that developed in my learned friend's District of Placentia West, with the people of Parkers Cove and so we can look forward, Mr.

Speaker, although I support this petition I have no doubt within a few days, Sir, that I will be standing in my place in this honourable House to support a second petition asking the House to recommend to the school board that they proceed with the original plans to build this school in Burnt Islands but nevertheless, Sir, it is the people's domocratic right to make their feelings known on this matter and that is why, Sir, that I support the petition. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? HON. G. OTTENHEIMER, MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr.

Speaker, if I may speak on the latter petition, with leave of the House very briefly on the former one because the honourable Member for Burgeo-LaPoile was so - MR. NEARY: You have got to have leave. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, that is what I am asking for leave. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Does the honourable Minister of Education have leave to speak in support of the previous petition? Agreed. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you. Thank you.

Sir, the honourable Member for Burgeo LaPoile rose to his feet with such alacrity that it was difficult to, it indeed became impossible to have a few words of comment on the petition in the first place presented by the honourable Member from Fogo and since I do have leave vary briefly to refer to that first petition, as the honourable gentleman stated, I was familiar with the contents of the petition.

The day before yesterday four or five gentlemen from the area were in my office and we had a fairly lengthy conversation and indeed I certainly commend those who put together the petition for the thoroughness and precision with which they did so, There is quite a detailed description, inventory if one wishes, of the educational facilities there, Certainly the petition was put together with great care and attention to detail, It is to be commended for that. I think one of the essential points in that petition is that of, 6261

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2086 NM - 2 if one wishes, a better rationalization of educational services. A number of the buildings in the area, while some are quite old, a number of the buildings in that educational area are not really very old and not in themselves inadequate.

What in fact has happened is that during I would say the fourteen, fifteen, sixteen year period since the construction of a number of the buildinrs, new services and new programmes have become available in physical education and science, in art, in music, in these areas and the facilities while adequate for, if one wishes to call it the regular, but that is the wrong term as well, the traditional or conceived to be traditional programmes in education, they certainly are not adequate for the new and innovate programmes which are presently available.

And certainly the spirit of the petition I am very pleased to support and I certainly hope that it will be within the financial capability of the educational authorities to see that the requests of the ladies and gentlemen of the Carmanville area, because it is a fairly wide area in which the petition was circulated and by residents of whom it was si~ed, I certainly hope that their requests can be met within a reasonable future.

With reference to the petition to which, and it is only by leave that I made the reference to the former petition presented by the honoura~le Member for Fogo, with reference to the petition so capably and melodiously presented by the honourable member for Burgeo-LaPoile, this particular petition I have not had the opportunity of seeing as I did the former one, so therefore to a large extent I have to refer to the very specific and clearly and precisely presented points by the honourable member and a brief conversation this morning during which he informed me that it was his pleasure and privilege to present a petition this afternoon and that one is of a somewhat different nature because

whereas the former referred to schocl facilities and their improvement, the latter is essentially a question of the location of school facilities and certainly I shall be looking forward tomorrow or the day after when the petition reaches my desk to studying it in detail and certainly to 6262

June 5, 1975 Tape 2087 (Afternoon) Ill-1 Paying very due attention to the points made. The question of the location of particular school facilities is as all honourable gentlemen know frequently in areas as a point of contention and various matters come into play, matters of education, educational policy, and obviously matters of community sentiment as well. Obviously these are important and to he borne in mind.

So, certainly I look forward to rece:l .ving copies of it so that I can study it in detail and I can certainly assure the honourable gentleman and members of the House that we will give very serious consideration to the points put forward by the residents and citizens in that particular area of Burgeo-LaPoile to whom and on behalf of whom the honourable gentleman presented his petition. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave of the House to present a petition from the fishermen in the Bonavista area who prosecute the crab fishery, and also the plant workers who normally work in the crab plant at Bonavista. Mr. Speaker, this same petition was forwarded a few days ago to the honourable Romeo LeBlanc, the federal Minister of Fisheries in the federal government, and basically asking for the s11111e things in the prayer of their petition.

They are asking that because it now appears certain the queen crab industry will not operate during the 1975 season unless financial help from government is forthcoming, they are asking that some sort of assistance, financial assistance be channeled into the industry to enable the fishermen 1 number one, to go fishing, and,number two,to enable the co111111encement of the operations of the plants once more. Now, this morning I talked to a number of crab fishermen who are part of a committee that is being set up by the Fishermens' Food and Allied Workers Union.

I understand that they met also with the Hinister of Fisheries in the provincial government. I would like to make one point in supporting this petition, that because there are approximately 220 fishermen only in Newfoundland who prosecute the crab fishery, a total of fifty-five boats, and because last year, 1974, the total crab catch in the Province was 7,500,000 pounds, and because the fishermen feel the maximum they can catch this year is 10 million pound!i, f.f the governments, federal or provincial or either one or the other put on a 6263

.TunP 5, 197 5 Tape 2087 (afteTTtoon) suhsi<ly, even of ten cents a pound, it will still only amount to $1 rni I ]inn total cost of the subsidy. T\pcause the federal government has already put in $50 million IB-2 in the groundfish industry, I feel it would really justify putting in ~l million or less than $2 million into the crab fishing irdustry. Because what it w.eans is according to last year the crab fishing ind11stry directly employed 1,200 people working directly in the crab fishing industry, 220 fishennen and the rest were plant workers.

There were more than 1,200 people who qualified for unemployment insurance benefits last year i~ 1974 hecause they worked and were employed directly by the crsb fishing industry. MR. NEARY: Some of them will be working elsewhere. MR. ~ORr.AN: So, Mr.

Speaker, because the situation now stands thst the crab plant owners and operators can only offer up to ten cents maximum pPr pound as of two days ago - prior to that it was only six and eight cents, now it :l.s eight and ten cents - and because the fishermen who have invested substant:1.al invl'stments in their own buying of the crab fishing gear, they feel they cannot fish economically this yesr at that price. There is no way they can carry on in the fishing industry fishing for crab and only getting ten cents per pound maximum.

They are asking that the provincial and federal governments either combined or the provincial government request of the federal level of government to put some kind of a subsidy on to subsidize the price being paid to the fishermen, not to the owners or the operators or the plant processors but to the fishermen so as the reduction in cost will be down for the prncessors by means of only having to pay ten cents per pound compared to sixteen cents last year, and the fishermen would be getting the prices equa1, to what they got last year. So, Mr.

Speaker, I am hoping that the provincial minister will receivP this petition in a very serious 'lo,ay and give it his inmtediate attention in the hope that if the federal governme~t refuses to put on a subsidy to employ 1,200 or more Newfoundlanders this yesr on seasonal employment that maybe this government, the provincial government will look at the possibility of putting on their subsidy even though it is goin8 to cost the taxpayers Sl million. It is going to mean 1,200 or more seasonal jobs this year in Newfoundland. So, Mr. Speaker, I beg leave that this petition 6264

June 5, 1975 Tape 2088 (Afternoon) PK - 1 be tabled in the House of Assembly and be referred to the . department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of this side of this House I certainly support the petition presented by the honourable Member for Bonavista South. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that the crab fishery is in serious trouble, and if the information which I received is correct then it is in the marketing of crab And it is also a well known fact too that there is some very poor quality of crab trying to seek its way into the market.

It is interesting, Mr. Speaker, it is only two days ago I spoke with one of the crab processors in Conception Bay and he told me he had all the crab meat sold, that is the stock which he was holding since last Summer or since last year. MR. NEARY: In Boston - CAPT. WINSOR: That is right, in Boston. It is interesting too that he has all of this year's production whatever it may be - MR. NEARY: Sold. CAPT. WINSOR: - sold this year. MR. NEARY: Sold in advance. AN HON. MEMBER: Below 11rice? CAPT. WINSOR: No, no, he got a fairly good price for it because the quality was very good. MR.

NEARY: You need Rossie back in Bonavista. CAPT. WINSOR: So I think too, Mr. Speaker, if there is a subsidy - if there is going to be a subsidy paid that subsidy should be paid direct to the fishermen. These are the men who deserve what­ ever goes in to that industry in order to get them on their feet and get them back to production. So, Mr. Speaker - CAPT. WINSOR: - perhaps the Hon. Minister of Fisheries if he supports this petition may be able to enlighten us a little on exactly what the marketing - 6265

June 5, 1975 Tape 2088 (Afternoon) MR. NFARY: Rossie knows - ~1\l'T. WINSOR: - situation is for the crab fishery. MR. NEA~Y: We have to get Rossie back 1boy 1 to look after the crab down there. 'fR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. HON. J.C. CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Mr. Speaker, we received this petition with a great deal of sympathy.

The nosition is that the prices for crab products declined severely last year because,I suppose,of the amount of crab produced, not just in Newfoundland, but in New Brunswick and other areas of PK - 2 the ,-rorld because there was a general softening in CODBIDer demand for high priced, more luxury type items such as crab is considered to he, and this involved difficulties in marketing the production of queen crab in Canada as well as in other areas last year and that still carries on into this year.

Now insofar as the federal government is concerned, so far as the queeo crab processors are concerned they say that they cannot afford to pay any more than ten cents a pound for crab this coming season . We have not audited their books. And whether or not that statement is correct or how it applies to each of them I do not know. I think if any assistance progranme is entered into it will certainly going to have to involve an audit to see exactly what the position is and whether or not they can afford to pay more.

The position of the Government of Canada has been that they do not want to announce or make any decision on a deficiency programme or deficiency prices to be paid catcher of queen crab at the start of the season because they do not want to encourage the production of too much queen crab during the current year.

In other words they do not want to end up the year with all the queen crab processors having produced a great volume of queen crab which cannot be marketed in the market places of the world, and therefore have to enter into another programme to dispose of the queen crab throu~h distress sales or through the CIDA or whatever. So the federal government has taken the position that they do not at this time what to decide whether or not there will be any deficiency payment programme in connection with the catching of queen crab. 6266

JDI1e S, 1975 Tape 2088 (Afternoon) PK - 3 I met today with the President of the Fishermen's Uni on, Mr. Cashin and twelve of the queen crab fishermen of the Province, and others and officials of the department to review the sit uat i on as they see it. They have made certain proposals to the Governme nt of Canada at Ottawa dealing, they feel, wHh the problems of, the fact that :l:t is now quite Hkely th.at we have too many que.en crab fishermen If the present level of fishing keeps up we may exhaust the queen crab resource 6267 , . • •·

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2089 NM - 1 very quickly, and all of these other problems. And they have made certain suggestions, the Government of Canada at Ottawa, they have made certain suggestions to us today. We will be in touch with the Department of Fisheries of CBDada to try to arrange a meeting with them in the next several days. If we agree with the proposals or any variation on them that has been made by the Union of Queen Crab Fishermen, we will support them.

We are arranging a meeting hopefully 'trith the Department of Fisheries at Ottawa to see whether they can be persuaded to accept any programme now or not or whether they want to continue their present policy. If they are not prepared to do anything at this time then we will have to see whether the Province itself should undertake any programme. I do not want to give the details on what the crab fishermen are themselves suggesting at the moment. However, they do agree that there are too many fishermen licenced at the present time for the queen crab fishery.

They want attention given and a priority given to the queen crab fishermen who have been in that fishery for the longest period of time, who have the biggest investment in it, which appears to be very sensible. And so the problem is being looked into. Now in the Province of New Bnmswick there is a considerable crab fishery also.

There are plants that are operating, processing plants that are operating in New Brunswick and they are paying seventeen cents a pound, but they are taking the position they are only going to pay seventeen cents a pound to July 1st., and if the Government of Canada does not institute a deficiency payment programme on July 1st. they will close again themselves. Our own processors, there may be one or two exceptions, but most of them have not yet opened and the fishermen are not prepared to sell the queen crab they catch for ten cents a pound.

One could not blame them because last year they were paid sixteen cents a pound and we all know that the cost of living and the costs have gone up since. So the problem is being worked on and we hope that a solution can 6268

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2089 NM - 2 be found. It is a complex situation but as far as the Province is concerned, as the honourable gentleman pointed out, while there are not a great number of queen crab fishermen, there might be 200 or so, there are a large number of people who get employment in the processing of queen crab because it is very labour intensive and it is therefore important to this Province. So we have met with the union, I think we will be meeting with the processors, we will be in touch with the Government of Canada, and we will see what can be worked out.

And if we have no luck at all with the Government then we will have to see whether the Province can do something on its own to help the situation. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I must say, Sir, I followed the remarks of the Minister of Fisheries very closely and I could not come to the conclusion, Sir, whether or not the minister supported the petition presented by the minister, from the member who was almost a minister, upstaged by the ~ember for St. John's South, by the Member for Bonavista South.

It was the greatest example, Sir, of double talking that I have ever seen in this honourable House. And Mr. Speaker, is it any wonder, Sir, that the fishery is in such a mess in this Province? MR. mRGAN: Point qf order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. mRGAN: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for Bell Island is certainly permitted to speak in support of the petition but the Chair has the feeling that the honourable member is debating and not speaking in support of the petition. Mlt. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if the minister, Sir, and I am merely commenting on what the minister has said about his reference to Ottawa, his remarks were rather - MR. SP.EAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My point of I order is this, that the honourable gentleman from Bell Island can either support and speak in support of the petition, he cannot get into debate on the 6269

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2089 NM - 3 comments made by any member while speaking on the petition. MR. NEARY: Sit down. Sit down. Sit down. Sit down dumbbell. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order. ulease! MR. NEARY: Dummy, sit down. Sit down dumbbell. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: The Chair will ask the honourable Member for Bell Island to retract that statement as being unparliamentary. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, if Your Honour thinks the member is not a dumbbell I retract it, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! !,N HON. MEMBER: - unqualified. KR. SPF.AKER: An unqualified retraction of that statement.

The member certainly did not satisfy the Chair that he had retracted and apologized for that statement. MR. REARY: Can I stand while Your Honour is standing or do I have to wait until Your Honour takes his seat. Thank you, Sir. Sir, I retr~ct. I retract that statement. MR. SJ!EAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista South may proceed with his point of order. MR. MORGAN : The point of order was that the honourable gentleman from Bell Island is debating the comments made by the honourable Minister of Fisheries in support of a petition.

The honourable gentleman must stand and speak either in support of the petition or not speak at all on this petition. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The 6270

June 5, 1975. Tape 200.0 RH - 1 honourable member may speak to a petition. The Chair has not yet seen where a member has to support a petition. Certainly, that a member cannot debate a petition is quite correct and the Chair did r,et the feeling the honourable Member for Bell Island was on the verge of _ entering into a debate. But there is nothing which says he has to support the prayer of a petition. MR. NEARY: ~fr.

Speaker, I do support the prayer of the petition, by the way,and I would hope, Sir, that the Minister of Fisheries will see fit not to try to pass the buck to Ottawa on this particular case because if we continue that policy, Sir, of passing the bucl· to Ottawa we may as well close down our provincial Department of Fisheries, that the minister, Sir, take the initiative himself and that the Provincial Government implement a plan of assistance to our crab fishermen, not wait for Ottawa, Sir.

Ottawa looks at Newfoundland sometimes in the fishery, especially the crab fishery from the vantage point of Wellington Street up there in Ottawa. We have our own provincial Department of Fisheries, Sir, and I 3Ill sure that if the minister wanted to that he could search throug11 the estimates and find countervailing savings, Sir, eliminate some of the extravagance and waste that ia into the budget, find counter­ vailing savings and subside the crab fishermen in this Province. The minister should also, }fr.

Speaker, in keepin~ with the prayer of the petition try and persuade the Govenunent of Canada to buy the crab meat. Can it first, tin it. Some of the operators in Newfoundland are already canning it. I think Mr. Janes over in Rants Harbour cans it and Boyd Way, I believe, cans the crab. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Beothuck Fisheries. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? CAPTAIN WINSOR: Beothuck Fisheries. Beothuck Fisheries. MR. NEARY: Beothuck Fisheries, Sir, can it.

There are several opeators in Newfoundland who have canneries and the minister s'1.oulc1 persuade the government of Canada, if the minister can arrange to have this crab meat canned, to buy it, Sir, for the third world. Here ,,e 6271

June 5, 1975. Tape 2090 RH - 2 arc told there are no markets for our era!, meat. Now you turn on your television and half the world is starving. There is something ,,,rong with that statement, Mr. Speaker, and I would submit that the 1-!i nister of Fisheries, Sir, our mm provincial minister, try to persuade the r.overnment of Canada if the operators cannot find markets, if the minister cannot find a market and the uhole problem in the fishery seems to be marketing, Sir, that they try to persuade the Government of Canada to buy it, put it in tins an~ send it over to the third world. 1fR.

SPF.AKER: Are there any other petitions? REPORTS OF STANDr.JG OR SPECIAL COMMITTEES: ----- r~. SPEAKER: The honourable ?!ember for Placentia East. ilP. 'F'. AL'n!Al'J}: Mr. SpeAker, I would like to table the report of the Select Committee on the Inshore Fishery and also as appendix, the six volumes. Volume one is the minutes of all the hearinJ?s of the Committee. It retains the minutes of the publ:lc hParings as well, .md in addit:j.on, two volumes of the submissions presented at the meetinp;s and public hearings of the Select Committee.

These were ones that the Committee received and in addition there are three volumes of written submissions which the Committee received by mail. So, we will table the original report together with the documentation that I referred to. l 1r. Speaker, in doing so I would first like to thank the members of the Committee for their co-operation and assistance during the hearing. I sin~erely trust that the House will see fit to adopt and endorse the report. The report itself contains acknowledgem~nts of all the various individuals who have made a contribution to the report.

As far as the recommendations and conclusions are concerned, Mr. Speaker, I sincerely trust that all members of the House will deal in detail with them when there is a motion t,efore the House as to how the report will be dealt with. I am sure each and every honourable member-of this House realizes ho,J serious the problems are confronting the industry and it il'I only a question of how they should he solved• 6272

June 5, 1975 Tape 2091 (afternoon) IB-1 I sincerely trust that the debate will expose the views of every honourable member, and again, Mr. Speaker, I look forward to participating in that debate when the matter comes before the House after the members have had time to consider the report. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HONOURABLE 'MEt,4'BERS: Inaudible. IN HONOURABLE 'MEMBER: Just one copy - MR, AYLWARD: Yes, one volume - that is right, MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! Before we continue I understand we have had j~t enter the galleries there as guests of Beaconsfield High School in St.

John's twenty-fnur Grade llII students from St. John's College in Brantford, Ontario accompanierl by Father Joseph Kolivesky. On behalf of all the members of our legislature I welcome you to the House of Assembly and trust that your visit here is most interesting and informative, Are there any other reports of standing or special committees? NOTICE OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable 'Minister of Justice. HON. A, HICKMAN (MINISTER OF Jt!STICE): Mr.

Speaker, I give .notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills: A hill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Eng1neering Profession Act." A bill, "An Act To Amend The Fire Prevention Act." On behalf of my colleague, the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The l1otori zed Snow Vehicles and All Terrain Vehicles Act." Also I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution: That this House thanks the Select Comlilittee on the Inshore Fishery for their report and for the diligence and perception which the Committee members brought to their task and directs the Government to investigate immediately the feasibility of implementing those recommendations of the Report that are within provincial jurisdiction.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I move that we do on tomorrow - t give notice 6273

June 5, 1Q75 Tape 2091 (afternoon) IB-2 that I will on t0111orrow move a bill, being "An Act Tri Ratify, Confirm And Adopt A Guarantee Agreement ~ade Between RoyMarine Leasing Limited And The C--ovemment And Fishery Products Lim:1.ted." I also give notice that I will on tomorrow ove the follow:fng resolution: That this Honourable House doth concur in the Report of the Cammittee appointed pursuant to Standing Order 84 (

a) presented on May 5, 1975. That report deals rith the appointment of members of the House to various coll'lnittees, Mr. Spealter. "IR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. RON. H.R.V. EARLE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce "An Act Further To Amend The Increase Of Pensions Act, 1974." ~- SPF..AKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. HON. W. DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT) : Mr.

Speaker• I give notice that I will on t01110rrow ask leave of the honowrable House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Provide For the Establishment Of the Labrador Coastal J\evelopaent Corporation." MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. H. COLLINS (MINISTER OF FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave of the Bouse to introduce a bill, "An Act Further .To Amend The Agreement Approved And Confirmed And Set Forth in The

Schedule To The Bowater's Newfoundland Act, 1938, And To Make Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To That Ajreement." And I would also give notice of a bill, "An Act To Provide For Livestock Insurance .And To Create A Livestock Owners Compensation Board. 11 And a bill, "An Act Respecting The Keeping Of nags." AN HONOURABLE ~MBER: The keepinv of what? MR. COLLINS: Dogs. MR, SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. AN lTONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable member should bf' interested. HON. L. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): His bark is worse than his bite. Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will introduce a bill, - I ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Limit The Financial Responsibility 6274

June 5, 1975 Tape 2091 (afternQOtt) Which !day Re Incurred By The_ Province In Respect of Newfoundland And Labrador llydro Without Fut'ther Feference To The Legislature." TH-3 I also, Mr. Speaker, give notice that on tomorrow, I will ask leave to introduce a hill, "An Act To Amend The Regulation Of Mines Act.'' '-!R.. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affa:I rs and Housing. HON. B. PECKFO'RI) (MINISTER OF ?-IUNIClPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSLl'lC): •tr.

Speaker, I give noti c e that I will on t omorrow ask l e ave to introd uce t he following bills: "An Act Furthe r To Amend The Department Of Municipal Affairs Anci Housing Act, 1973 . " And ''An Act Furtner To Amend The Local C'.overnment Act, 1°72 ." 6275

June 5, 1975. Tape 2092 RH - 1 mt. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Social Services. HON. }_. MJRPHV: Mr. S!)eaker, I would give notice on tomorrow I will ask leave of the House to amend t:vo acts, "J,n Act To Amend The Welfare Institutions Licensin2 Act," and, "An Act Respectin2 Day Care And Homemaker Services." :C:<™E TIONOURABLE m:MBERS: Inaudible. ~'R. SPF.AKER: Order, please: ORAL Ol!ESTIOY.TS: HR. SPEAKEP_: The honourable !'.ember for Bell Island. Y.IR. 11EARY: Mr. SpeaJ,:er, I t•rould like to put a question to the honourable Prelllier.

Would the honourable the Premier tell the House what plans _his govermnent have to take care of the record number of our fellow Newfoundlanders ~-.Jio are unemployed at the present t:lllle? 1-!P..~~EAIIT.R: The honourable the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: 1-f.r. Speaker, that question is very broad as the l'ember from Bell Island well knows and has been asked here many times previously. One of the great problems, not in just Newfoundland, but in Canada today, Sir, is the, not only the increase 1n inflation but the cure of that which is obviously recession. Obviously the cure for recession is unemployment.

Other countries in the Western world, in Europe and in the United States have started to come to grips with this and we in Canada, including the Province of Newfoundland, have yet shown very little sign of doing the same thing. The matter of employment this year, Sir, will be one of the utmost effort by this goverpment but let us face, in my opinion, reality because we in Newfoundland and we in Canada have been living in somewhat of a dream world for quite a long time as far as what we can expect out of Canada 1n the international context.

This should be the subject of a much longer and much more detailed debate later on, of course~ but the fact is answering the member's question, we will be doing our absolute upmost to create all tJ-e employment 11e possible can. MR. SPEAKER.: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a s111>plementary question, Sir. The last 6275

June S, 1975. part of the Premier's answer there, I wonder if the honourohle the Premier could he a little more specific and ~ive us some details of '°rhat the government is going to do, what plans they have? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: In due course, Mr, Speaker. RH - ? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the honourable the Premier, Sir, could bring the House up to date on the situation in Western Newfouncl­ land concerning North Star Cement, Bowaters, Atlantic Gypsun concerninp. the layoffs, cutbacks, how serious, what it is doing to the economv of Western Newfoundland?

Could the Premier zive the House an upnating on this? PREMIER J:fOORES : Mr. Speaker, I promised thP }fember for Bell Island when we were here last that I would get that information. I got the information. I am sorry I do not have it on me r:l,ght now hut certainly on tomorrow I will gladly pass along that in some detail to the nemh:~r. MR. SPF.AKER: The honourahle i!ember for Fogo. CAPTAIN WINSOR: r•r. Speaker, might I direct a question to the hononrah]P ¥.inister of Fisheries.

Has the minister or .can the min:lster. :lnfoTIT! the House if hia department lll'ls carried out a survey to ascertain what damage was caused by a recent storm and by ice conditions along the Northeast Coast? HR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The position is, Mr. Speaker, we have sane reports from regional representatives on gear losses in various areas. The weekend of May 17-18 there were heavv losses of fishing gear due to a storm in the Port au Port Bav fror.i the South side of St. Georges Bay and the Highlands to the Codroy area.

The estimate is that approximately 2n,nnn lobster tra-ps were severely dama~ed or destroyed. Also, a small amount of other gear was lost which were salmon nets and herring nets. Th1s is an estimate, of course and not the final figures. The other areas of the C~ast where there has heen damar,e 6277

June 'i , 1975. Tape 2092 1W - 3 or appears to be sttere damage to gear will be the area from· Jackson's Cove :in Green B.ty to ll'ogo where we estimat:e that perhaps eighty per c.ent o.f the lobster pots were damaged or lost, and from Gander Bay to Cape Freels, agdn, probably ei.ghty per cent of the pots lost. Also some loss of salmon,~ fish and ground fish nets. It is very difficnlt to est1Jllate the losses in this area as the fishermen have not been able to get out to check their ge,ar due to the ice. Until tbev are able to do that we are- unable to give a more accurate U.gure.

From cape Free.ls South there appears 1io he lit~le damage. The two areas most effected, from Codroy Horth to Port au Port Peninsula and the Green lll!.y, ~sporte and Fogo district•• Total losses m!ght ·be 100,000 lobster pots. In other words. t .here 19:f.gbt be 75,000 lobster pots 6278

June 5, 1975 Tape 2093 (Afternoon) lost in the other areas along the Northeast Coast. We will only know for sure after the ice moves off and people have been ahle to check their gear. So there is a very consideraple loss of lobster traps or pots in those two areas. }IP_. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: A supplementary to the question, Hr. Speaker. PK - 1 Can the minister tell the House whether he has made any representation to the Federal Department of Fisheries for any assistance? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have made no representation with the Federal Department of Fisheries as yet.

We have been in touch with their representatives, employees in the Province,in attempting to get an estimate of the damage done. Once we have an assessment made of the damage then we will consider whether we will get in touch with them or just what action will be taken. I do not think that we can automatically expect that there is going to be any programnes such as the ones last year dealing with the damage suffered last year due to Arctic ice.

But when we have gotten the final reports we will have to assess the situation and we will talk to the federal government, and we will also decide what if anything we can do. I might also add, Mr. Speaker, in connection with the progranane of last year, because there seems to be some confusion on this, last year in the area covered for losses due to the Arctic ice we included lobster traps. The amount of the compensation was $10.00 per trap replaced. MR. all. MR. MR. MR. 'MR. NEARY: CROSBIE: NEARY: SPEAKER: NEARY: No it was not. That was not the understanding at Mr.

Speaker, if I can continue - Five dollars for losing a trap - Order, please! Five dollars for replacing it. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the progranane last year was we agreed that we would pay $5.00 last Fall - MR. NEARY: For loss of gear. 6279

June 5, 1975 Tape 2093 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: - towards - so that the men could start rebuilding, c~nstructing their lobster pots. And when the pots were checked this year and we knew how many had been replaced the other $5.00 would be paid to them. The programme was to replace lobster pots, not to pay people 1110ney who did not replace the pots. MR. NF.ARY: That was not the understanding - ~1R. CROSBIE: That is the arrangement,that was the programme that was exl)lained and that is the programme that is now 'inderway. Now the first payment of $5.00 vas made last year.

The second payment of $5.00 - we have since, of course, interviewed all the claimants to see have they replaced their pots. We have no intention in this world of paying anyone another $5.00 who did not replace the pots he claimed were lost last year. !ffl.. NEARY: What about the $5.00 they already got? MR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Speaker - would the honourable g~ntleman allow me to speak and, you know, not be such a silly nuisance. MR. NF.ARY: You are making a fool of yourself,boy! You do not know what you are talking about. JlfR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order, please! MR. C~OSBIE: So, Mr. Speaker AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will remind the honourable member from Bell Island that when a member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence. HR. CROSBIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, the cheques are now being mailed out to the fishermen for the pots that they have replaced, and this is resulting in some confusion.

For example, if a person made a claim last year and the claim was accepted for 100 pots, he would have received a cheque for $500.00, $5.00 a pot times 100 pots is $500.00 - and I am just going into that because the Member for Bell Island would not understand the mathematics of that - that is $500.00. 6280

June 5, 1975 Tape 2093 (Afternoon) Now, Mr. Speaker, suppose when our inspector went around, the person or the fisherman in question had not built any pots to replace the hundred he lost he would not now get a cheque for any dollars. MR. NEARY: No pot luck. MR. CROSBIE: But if he had replaced his 100 pots he would now get another cheque for $500.00 making $1,000 compensation for. 100 pots lost and replaced. Mil. NEARY: The jack pot, MR. CROSBIE: But if the fisherman who had claimed for 100 pots and got $500.00 last Fall had only rebuilt 50 pots, what would he get a cheque for now?

I know this is confusing for the gentleman from Bell Island. If he had only replaced - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: 50 pots he wuuld get no cheque now, because PK - 3 he has gotten $500.00 for the 50 pots he has replaced and at $10.00 a pot times 50 pots is $500.00, AN HON. MEMBER: Who baa got a baby crying'l MR. CROSBIE: I hope now that all honourable gentlemen understands this programme, Mr. Speaker. So the point is that this was a progra111111e to enable fishermen to replace the gear they lost.

If some of them choose to accept the money that went out last Fall, and not to replace their pots, not to build new pots,they are not going to get more 1110ney this Spring to pay for pots they did not replace. MR. NEARY: Will they have to repay back the money they have? 6281

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2094 MR. MOORES: They have not f!;Ot a pot to what in? HR. PECKFORD: They have not got a pot to 11lay in. NM - l MR, CROSBIE: We are checking tht.s. If there are some glaring offenders we may be very tempted to take action against him. For example if somebody reported 500 pots lost last year and ve pai.d him $2,500 and this Spring he does not have a pot to - he does not have a pot to fish in, this arouses considerable aapicion as to whether he was ever a lobster fisherman in the first place.

So if there are major offenders like that ve will have to consider whether or not there shoulcl be any action take. But generally speaking I would say no. But they will not get the second payment if they have not replaced their pots. 'HR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermitage. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could I go - MR. SINK>NS: You cannot get a word in here. MR. NEARY: I am a little bit out of practice. Sir, could I go back to the question I asked the honourable the Premier. I am dissatisfied with the Premier's answer given me on unemployment, Sir, and I - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Too late. To late. MR.

NEARY: No, it is not too late. There is nothing in the Standing Rules that says, no Sir, when you wish to give notice of debating it. I wish to debate this during the late show this evening, Sir. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair will certainly have to take that under consideration. The Chair at the moment feels the honourable Member for Bell Island is too late in giving notice, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the honourable the Premier, Sir, to tell the House if his government have any special plans to make work for our 42,000 Hewfoundlanders who are unemployed at this ti.me. HR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable gentleman is being redundant and tenacious in a,:king this question. It is the same question, vexacious.- AN HON, MEMBER: Frivolous. MR. CROSBIE: Frivolous, mischievous in asking the same question again today and it should be ruled out of order. HR. NEARY: Point of order, Sir. It is not the same question that was 6282

June 5, 1975 Tape No, 2094 NM - 2 asked previously, Sir. My question now to the Premier is would the Premier tell us of any special make-work projects that his government may have to take care of the people who are unemployed? Which is a completely different question, Sir. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair rules it is in essence the same question asked by the Member from Bell Island. Re has just changed the wording somewhat and his question is out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my

interpretation of the Stating Orders, Sir, that you can give notice before four-thirty anytime during the day that you ask a question and I am giving notice now, Sir, that I am dissatisfied with the Premier's answer and wish to debate the matter during the Late Show titis afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair has already said that it will take the matter under consideration. MR. SIMK>NS : Mr. Speaker, to that point, will the Chair hear some argument before making a decision? MR. SPEAKER: The Chair is not prepared to hear any argument re that matter at the present. No. The honourable Member for Hermitage. MR.

SIMK>NS: Hr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy, I wonder would he indicate to us what the status of the proposed Lloyds River diversion is now, has an~ final decision been made on that or - MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. HR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I never expected that question today. AN HON. MEMBER: Surpise, HR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, as a salmon fisherman who has fished for salmon on the Exploits, who has walked the shores of Red Indian Lake, who has flown over the Lloyds River and Lloyds Lake, I am very much aware of the possible adverse effects even prior to the preliminary feasibility report, preliminary,! am sorry,environmental report that we , received several weeks ago, even before that time I was aware of the possibility of envirormental damange resulting from any diversion of waters in that particular area, and that is why we ~equested that the environmental 6283

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2094 NM - 3 study be carried out and that is why I said then, I have said several times since and I say again, that there will be no decision 1ll&de to divert the river, . the waters of Lloyds River, until -..cl unless it is shown that this _ can: be done without undue envJ.roiimental damage. But I can miderstand, Mr. Speaker, the concern that is re::Lsed in tJ:i,e general public about this matter, as somebody vho has a1ao f-ished in the Bay D'Espoir Reservoir, who bas come back after dark and tried to 'WJvigate around the tops of trees that were flooded without any attempt to clear the tblber 6284

June 5, 1975 Tape 2095 (afternoon) rn-1 around the reservoir without any attempt to cut so as to provide new banks in a reservoir that was flooded by the previous administration, by the party that these gentlemen opposite represent, supported then then and still support. I can understand, Mr. Speaker, how the people of this Province become very concerned now when they see this government or any government even put forth a proposal that could result in the flooding of any other land in our Province. But, Mr.

Speaker, I ask all members of this honourable House, I ask the people of this Province, I ask the m@rlia - God help me, particularly the media - to take a proper prospective, not to swing from one extreme to the other, Mr. Speaker. Because, while we have a duty as a government to protect the environment and the ecology of this Province, we also have a duty to do everything possible to reduce the cost of living, to do everything possible to reduce the expense to the consumer of electrical energy. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: And the unemployment. MR. BARRY: Now, Mr.

Speaker, when we are told that there is the possibility of saving the cons1.D11er some $7 million a year prior to the time that power comes on stream from Labrador and probably some $3 million to $4 million a year thereafter, Mr. Speaker, we then have the responsibility to take a very hard look at the proposal to divert the rivers or the waters of the Lloyds River. We have to take a very h~rd look. I personally, Mr. Speaker, have some very serious concerns as to whether this project can ever go ahead, very serious concerns. I am delighted, Mr.

Speaer, to see the interest that this project has aroused in the general public. I am concerned however, Mr. Speaker, that much of the opposition that has been raised until now has not taken into consideration both sides of the issue, protecting the environment against reducing the cost to the consumer. I ask, Mr. Speaker, that this debate continue but that it. continue rationally, analysing both sides of the issue. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: 1-lr. Speaker. The honourable Member for Hermitage. I think all that means he is sitting on the fence, I simply asked what the status was.

A question - no Minister of Public Works, no acting Minister of Public Works. A question for the Premier in the absence of the 6285

June 5, 1975 Tape 2095 (afternoon) IB-2 Minister of Public Works. I wonder if the Premier could indicate whether a decision has been made with respect to the rental space for government offices? Bas a decision been made on the rental space on which public proposals were called a month or so ago? Two months ago? 1"fR. '!\UORES: The answer is, ~r. Speaker, that the proposals were opened publicly at the Department of Public Works. They have been attalyzed 1or are ~eing analyzed rather,by the engineers and the other technical people in the Department of Public Works.

I would expect that a recommendation 1,•ill he coming forward to government within a week, ten days, I have no idea,but it certainly will be one of the things I will be checking on. There is an urgent need for it,and hopefully we will be in a position to deal with it in the not very distant future. MR. SPEAKEP: The honourable Meriler for Labrador North. 'MR. WOODWARD: ~r. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice. Some time ago there were negotiations with regards to establishing a building or developing a correctional institute in Labrador for native people.

I am wondering if the minister can tell the House, inform the Rouse if that programme will be starting this Summer. If not, when do we hope to see it started or when will it get started? ~- HICKMAN: folr. Speaker, the House will recall that following receipt of the report of the Federal-Provincial Corrections r.omrnittee which committee was set up on the iniative of this government followed by the report of K.L. 1"'cReynolds Limited, both of Which recommended a community corrections center for the Happy v•lley area to serve Labrador.

We then made a submission to the Solicitor General and subsequently held discussions with the honourable Judd Buchanan, Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs suggesting to them that, 6286

June 5, 1975 Tape 2096 (afternoon) IB-1 at least I d:l.d, that I considered and still consider this to he the number one priority insofar as the provision of facilities for correct:lons are concerned. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. _MR. HICKMAN: That is right. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: Well, I cannot. I wish I could tell you.

At a very recent dinner here the honourable Warren AllJnand, the Solicitor General of Canada indicated to those in attendance - and they were the people, the John Howard Society people - that he had set up a committee to study and to report to him hopefully by the end of this Summer upon the request from the Government of Newfoundland for substantial financial assistance in the construction of a community correct:lonal facility in Happy Valley and also a provincial correctional center to replace Her Majesty's penitentiary.

I urged again that night upon the Solicitor General that the committee move with the utmost dispatch and he assured me that he had issued these instructions. I feel, Mr. Speaker, and this too has been conveyed to the Government of Canada, that insofar as the corrections center, commun:lty center in Happy Valley is concerned, that the department responsible for native Canadia11s has a very heavy responsibility because I would see that institution not only taking care of the needs of residents of the Labrador part of the Province of Newfoundland but also people, Canadians who reside in the Eastern

section of the North West Territories sometimes known as the near North. We have done our job. The ball is now in the laps of my honourable friends, compatriots in Ottawa. I have no reason to believe that they are not sympathetic towards our cause. But, we just have to wait until they make their decision. MR. WOODWARD: I would like to thank the minister. I have a question for the - in the absence of the Minister of Transportation and Communications, maybe to keep away from a long-winded answer, I should ask the Minister of Industrial Development.

In light of the fact that the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro is calling tenders for maintenance and upgrading of the Freedom Road from Churchill Falls to Goose Bay, does this mean that the road is not under the auspices or the responsibility of the nepartment of 6287

June 5, 1975 Tape 2096 (afternoon) IB-2 Transportation and Communications as a public highway? 'When this work is done and the maintenance is performed on that particular toad and it is made serviceahle or useable, will the public be permitted to use that particular road during the construction phase of the Upper Churchill when that thing gets off the ground? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. '1-fR.

DOODY: If the honourable member is not interested or does not want to get a long-winded reply, I think I would rather refer the answer to that question to my colleague the :1-finister of Mines and Energy who is renowned for being brief,to the point and far more accurate than any summation of this I would have, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: The answers, Mr. Speaker, are no, yes, and yes. Seriously though, Mr. Speaker, the work is being done through Newfoundland and Labrarlor Hydro because the cost of the road should really be attributed to the project itself.

There has been no final decision made with respect to when this road can be opened or dedicated, I th f.nk, is the proper term as a public highway. But, I would expect - AN llONOURAllLF. :1-'EMBER: It is a public highway. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: I would expect - right, as far as it is consistent with protecting the safety of the public, that access to that part of the Province as any other part of the Province should be open, but it has got to be obviously what is consistent with public safety and proper management of w~at is going to be a very, very large project. MR.

DOODY: I am disappointed,Your Honour. I could have been as brief as that. ~. T,TOODWARD: A supplementary question to that which may solve some of the problems that we foresee in the future, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that - well is now that highway, and will it be during the construction phase the responsibility of the Department of Transportation and Communications and not the developers or the contractors who are building the particular project. I ask that question to clarify it. It is important. "IR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. ~- BARRY: I think, 6288

June 5, 1975 Tape 2097 (Afternoon) Mr, Speaker, that is something I better get, draw to the attention of my colleague the Minister of Transportation and CODDDUnications and get a specific answer. I am not sure. To me, I think, it would make sense that once the initial major PK - 1 work was done that this become the responsibility of the department the same as any other highway. There may be some­ thing there that I am not aware of where this cannot be done immediately or where the responsibility of the Department of Transportation may have to be suspended for a time.

I would just like to check and make certain before giving a final answer on it . And I will undertake to get it from the Minister of Transportation. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Labrador North. MR. 'WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the minister. Mr, Speaker, I would like to direct another question to the Minister of Energy.

Now that two or three weeks have elapsed since we have asked questions in the Rouse, gave him some time to do further planning on the development of the Lower Churchill, I wonder if he is now in a position to inform the House and this Province how many people will be employed on that project this year? And maybe in a two part question, if he can give us the central location of the employment office. There are a number of people who are confused today as to where to get 1work. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, it is anticipated that the work force should peak to around 900 people. MR. WOODWARD: At what period? MR.

BARRY: During 1975. I think the peak period will be August, September. But there will be several hundred people within the next month or so working. The honourable member is probably more aware than I am of the number actually involved from the Goose Bay end right now, but you can think roughly in terms of the project being broken down about one-third, one-third, one- third both in cost and effort this year to the Gull Island site, the tunnel crossing and the transmission line right- of-way. 6289

June 5, 1975 Tape 2097 (Afternoon) With respect to the employment office-· the Newfoundland Labrador Hydro is at present - they have received instructions to have arrangements made so that people will PK - 2 have direct access to them in the Goose Bay-Happy Valley area and other areas where work will be taking place. They are in the process of putting personnel in the Goose Bay-Happy Valley area, putting an office in there.

In the meant:lme I would suggest to the honourable member if he has constituents who are interested in employment that they should make contact either with Canada Manpower or with the Newfoundland am Labrador Hydro offices here directly. ~- SPF.AKER: The Ron. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could I direct a question to the ~inister of Justice. Would the Minister of Justice care to tell the House if he has instructed his officials to undertake an investigation into the movement of booze in this Province at the present time to see if it is being distributed legally or illegal? 14:R.

MORGAN: Concerning what? HR.. BICICHAN: Put it on the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: Well, ~tr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with that answer, Sir, and I wish to debate it during the late show this afternoon. 1-!r. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Mines and Energv if he can confirm or deny a statement made by the President of the Newfoundland Hydro Corporation yesterday to the St. John's Kili'anis C':luh that the preliminary work on the tunnel across the Straits of Belle Isle is not going very satisfactory? Would the minister care to CODB11ent on that? •m. SPF.AKER: '1R.. BARRY: The lion.

Jo!inister of Mines and Energy. Mr. S11eaker, I am not aware that was said. I do not believe it was said. I am not aware of any - AN HON. MF.Ml!ER: ~ - BARRY: ml. NF.ARY~ 'ffl. SPF.AKER: 6290 It vas taped. - particular problems with the work on the - 'Mr. Gloom's' voice was on the tapes. Order, please!

June 5, 19.75 MR, BARRY: Tape 2097 (Afternoon) PK - 3 Strait of Belle Isle crossin .g. The honourable member will have to bring me the words that he is attributing to nr. Groom. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, did 1 Mr. Gloom' submit a text of his address to Kiwanis to the minister before he made this speech or was he speaking off-the-cuff on his own? MR • .BARRY: its top - No, Mr. Speaker, this government does not censor MR. ROUSSEAU: Now· you have him in trouble. MR. BARRY: - the heads of Crown Corporations the way the previous administration did, when the hon.curable member was a member. HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR..

BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen any - I was in consultation with Mr. Groom, he indicated to me what the gist of his remarks to Kiwanis. I do not know any'Mr. Gloom~ so I assume it is Mr. Dennis Groom that the honourable member is referring to. MR. NEARY: Yes. 6291

June 5, 1975. Tape 2098 RH - 1 ~- BARRY: I am not aware of any such statement having been made by him. If the honourable member can bring the words to me I will check them out. :MR. NE.ARY: ~r. Speaker, supplementary quest-Ion to the minister. Order, please! Order, please! The thirty minutes for t)1e question period have expired. ~IR. CROSBIE: l!R. SPF..AKFR: ·----- MR. CROSBIE: ORDERS OF THE DAY: Motion (3) , l{r. Speaker. ~otion (3) to be moved by the honourable the Premier. Mr. Speaker, the honourable the Premier has to be out of the House for the moment so I will introduce the motion. MR. SPF.AKER: ~m..

CROSBIE: The honourable }f:lnister of Fisheries. It is a great pleasure to move this motion, Mr. Speaker. ~fr. Speaker, I was away for a few days prior to the adjournment of the Rouse of Assembly early in May. :P-IR. NEAJ1Y: HR. SPEJ..KER: •lR. CROSBIE: Tell us where you were. Tell us where you were. Order, please! I do not mind telling the honourable gentleman where I uas but it is not relevant to this debate. l.fherever I was I was work.ing hard and earnestly in the best interests of this Province, I trust. ~!ow, 'fr. Speaker, I was away when this motion was first proposed early in !fay. Hhen I got back to St.

John's and looked at the old newspapers as is my wont to see what had been happening while I was away,and of course I am deeply interested in the historice affairs of this historic,_ Assembly. I was dumbfounded by several matters, one of which was the scurrility and the vehemence and the desperateness and the untr811D11eled nastiness of the attacks that were made by honourable gentlemen opposite ,rhen it was proposed that Mr. Ambrose Hubert l'eddle be made parliamentary commissioner under the terms of the Parliamentary Collllllission (Ombudsman) Act. Hr.

S1>eaker, I mean seldom, seldom have I seen such a concentrated an~ vitriolic attack on any individual as I saw at that time in the le.ind of expressions that were used and the vehemence and the way in which the 6292

June 5, 1975. Tape 2098 PJ-l - :?. whole thing was greeted by honou.,.able gentlemen opposite, undeservedly so, 1.llldeserved attacks on Ambrose Peddle. I thought to myself, my God! Has the government a~pointed sOl'le criminal who has just come out of the penitentiary after serving b~enty years for maim, rape, manslaughter, murder, incest and what have you, fraud, theft? Have the government just appointed someone like that or suggest to the Hou"e of Assembly that we appoint someone like that as orn1'udsman? Is that what has happened? Is that what is causing this furor?

Then when I saw whn it was the government was proposing, Ambrose Peddle, the complete opposite of ,that.It was really astonishing. What is wrong w:f.th this Province, Mr. Speaker, that anything that is proposed meets with nothing but negative criticism and vitriolic attack, not only from the Opposition opposite, but by some agencies of the.news media? What is it? Just compare an appointment just made in the Province of Ontario within this last month of an ombudsman for the Province of Ontario.

The burden of the attack on poor Ambrose Peddle, the burden of the vicious connnent and attac1': and scurrility was that he had been a member of this House of Assembly. That was not bad enough that the poor fellow had been a memher of thi" Tiouse of Assembly,hut that was not bad enough, I will not even mention that he is allegerl of being a Tory. That was not bad enough he was an ex-meMher of this House of Assembly but he was an ex-member of the House of Commons. That seemed to make it even worse. That seem to make Mr.

Peddle beyond recall altogether for honourable gentlemen opposite and s0r.1e members of the press. In other words, if you were ever elected to this House of Assembly or if you were elected to the House of Commons and you get defeated or leave politics, you:·should never be appointed to anything. Vou are a desperado. You are the type that should no longer have any connection with the public affairs of the Province or the country. You are nothinr. but a subject fit for scorn and attack if anybody ever suggested vou - 6293

I June 5, 1Cl75. Tape 20<!8 RR - 3 F<hould he put in any position of trust in the public again. Tb.at is the conclusion. nr. Speaker, you would come to, that you would come to wi.th the way that ¥r. Peddle's suggested appointment was announced. Now, frankly, I do not know how the man has taken it. You know, it is a desperate thing. You are 6294

June 5, 1975 Tape 2099 (afternoon) IR-1 an ordinary citizen and you are proposed for an appointment and that kind of a concentrated attack is made. I congratulate him for his courage in still permitting his name to go forward to this honourable House. To tum back would be shameful. It would be shameful. It would be an admission that there was something wrong with Mr. Peddle, that he could not act impartially or that he did not have the qualifications to be ombudsman, that there are other people who would have qualificat1on, Mr.

Speaker, only because they had never been in politics or a member of the House of Assembly or a Member of Parliament. What a shameful. state of affairs we are in in this Province if the public and the media believe that to engage in public life is to be so tainted that you are never again to darken the doors of any appointment that will give you any public trust in this Province thereafter. Now, a large part of the reason for that kind of thing is the attitude of the Opposition opposite which I will not elaborate on.

But, for nastiness, for invidiousness, for ennuendo, and for that kind of thing,the Opposition opposite has not been matched in this House in I do not know how many hundred years. The House has only been here 100, I suppose. Now, Mr. Speaker, when I was over there I was not nasty. I was not mean. I was not scurrilous. I attacked the government on the government's policies and I fought a dictatorship. I am delighted and I have got nothing to apologize for and never will. I am proud of it. There may be the odd thing that I have said that,all right,that I would not say on reflection.

But, that is not the kind of thing that I am talking about. I am talking about the kind of mean, vicious attack on people who cannot defend themselves who are proposed for anything in a mad, insane desire to defeat the government in what the Opposition thinks is going to be an election this year. Now, in Ontario, Mr. Speaker, just within the last month, a former Member of Parliament, Mr. Arthur Maloney has just been appointed ombudsman. There is the Globe And Mail of M~y 23 - Maloney is appointed Ontario ombudsman at $60,000 a year.

Of course the Opposition,and the Member for Rell Island is the worse of them, that little open line hound, that little hound dog that runs with his mouth open. Re is like Pavlov's dog. When he hears there is an open line show, he is 6295

June 5, 1Q75 Tape 2099 (afternoon) there slavering to get on the open line show with his distortions and exaggerations. He has been on the open line shows slavering about the Province since the P.ouse of Assembly adjourned a month ago, slavering, slavering - MR . SIMKINS : Who is attacking now? Who is attacking now? AN RONOUP.ABLE ME"BER: I am glad you are attacking - 'MR. SPEAKER: _MR. CROSBIE : Order, please! I am addressing myself to the Member for Bell Island who is slavering on the open line shows saying that Ambrose Peddle is going to get $40,000 a year if he is appointed.

Nots word of truth IB-2 in it, and he knows it. Now, here is the ombudsman in Ontario - $60,000 a year. The ombudsman in Newfoundland if appointed is going to get $27,000 or $28,000 whatever the chief magistrate of the Province gets, not $40,000 a year as the honourable exaggerator from Bell Island was saying. So, Arthur Maloney - 'MR .• NEARY: What! I did not: say that. 1-'R. CROSBIE: $40,000. f-'l!. SPEAKE~: Order, please! t.fR. C.POSBIE: Friday, May 23, the Globe And Mail, Maloney is appointed Ontario ombudsman. Well, ~-rho is Arthur Maloney?

He is a criminal lawyer in Toronto and he has been appointed Ontario's first: provincial omhndsman. The Preuder, 1-'r. Davis, put forward his name. It met immediate acceptance by all parties. Mr. Maloney said he has given a lot of anxious thought to whether he will accept or not and so on and so forth. He is a former Conservative M.P. for Toronto-Parkdale riding from 1957 to 1Q62. He is a former member of the House of Commons, P.C. member for Toronto-Parkdale. Did that drive them rabid in Ontario?

Did they go berserk with the desperate rapacity of a government in Ontario that would dare to appoint a former member of parliament and a P.C. at that to the post of ombudsman? Did they go rancid? nid editorials crack out all over the place attacking this savage act of political corruption and political patronage as the honourable Leeder of the Opposition here. Re went berserk. He never heard of such political corruption and patronage in his life. What a short memory he has got! Did they go berserk in Ontario? Did the Liberal Opposition get rancid? They have an election in Ontario this year. They are sure to 6296

June 5, 1975 Tape 209Q (afternoon) have one this yeai:. We are not snre of having one this yeaT. We can go until 1-pTil of 1977, you know, or evco longer if we adopt the Small~ood pi:ecedent. We can go until pei:haos Decemhei: of 1977 and Ill-) we can cling t'n with our Hnzt?rnails and cling on wtth our toemlil s the same as Hr . Smallwood. llut, the honour al;,le gentleman are worde d we might go tomorrow or this year. We might or it might he next year . ~ut, in Ontario they are goin g this year . It is pretty definite. Did the l,ihe tal Opposition go berse r k? !lid they attac k Mr.

Maloney 's character? nirl they attac~ him viciously? nid the y say he w•s unsuited for t he office hecaue he was a P .C, 1 6297

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2100 NM - 1 MR. CROSBIE: becaue he had been a member of Parliament! No, they did not. They did not. The Leader of the Opposition, what :Ls the gentleman's name up there, Nixon, Nixon welcomed his appointment. Did the N.D.P. get: a bit: annoyed that a P.C. had been appointed Ombudsman in Ontario? One might: think that the N.D.P. would get annoyed with that, they are so pure. They are the purest of the pure. Did they get annoyed? No,"Liberal Leader Robert: Nixon said he was impressed with the government's appointment: of Kr. Maloney.

His reputation is such that: if he were to even suggest any government agency was holding back on him it would be enough to destroy that: agency." Stephen Lewis, the new Deomocrat::l.c Leader, said •Kr. Maloney was a man with a real feeling for social justice and a remarkable grasp of simple human problems. I like the appointment: of Arthur Maloney. From my knowledge of him he will make an Ombudsman at least: equal to Morton Schulman." That: is the N.D.-P. Leader up in Ontario.

Not taking what: might: be a political advantage to attack Arthur Maloney and to say that: because he was a former P.C. member of the House the thing :Ls doomed forever, and make the kind of cheap political attack that was made here a month ago and will be repeated, Kr. Speaker, I forecast, it will be repeated here today. We will hear a day now and perhaps tomorrow, of invidious attack on poor Ambrose Peddle. That is what we will get from honourable gentlemen opposite.

Now they will couch it in terms, they will say now Ailbrose Peddle is a fine man, yon Ambrose Peddle is an honourable man,they will say, yon Cassius is an honourable man, that is what they will say, but after sayinR that they will knife him in every direction, every rib of his will get stabbed and stamped on during this debate by the honourable gentleman opposite. They will say he is not fit for the post because he was a P.C. member of the House. There is nothing wrong with Mr. Peddle, they will say, we are sure he will do a wonderful job, but it is corruption, it is inequity at its worst, it is patronage.

That is what we will have to endure for the next day or two, unless honourable gentlemen pleasantly sotj,rise 6298

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2100 NM - 2. me. They may p.;et up and say, genetlemen we went too far a mont\, apo. We have reconsidered. We do not want to slander and harass Arnbrosr Peddle any longer. We made a mistake. We are prepared to r ive the man a chance. We agree he is an honourable Newfoundlander with a lot of experience in fields that will be very relevant for the Provincial Ombudsman and therefore we are withdrawfof.' our opposition. They have a chance to do that. If they do, ~r.

Speaker, I will r.et up and apologize and say what a fine hunch I think they are on a temporary basis, on this particular, on this particular. But I do not think I am going to have to do that. I do not thin! • I am going to have to do that. I do not think I am poinr. to havP. to do it. All right. Now what did Mr. Maloney say about the post of Ombudsman? He said, he viewed the role of the Ombudsman as an extension or adjunct to the job performed by the member of the Legislature for his constituents.

Besides investip.ating complaints brought to his attention by individual citizens, he said it would be his duty to initiate investigations in the problems he might see, or read about or hear about. Re regarded it as an extension or adjunct to the job performed by a mE!l'ber of the Legislature for his constituents. Now that is certainly, that is certainly true, Mr.

Speaker, and that being the case what better experience,if one is fitted in character, what better experience could one have for a job than that one have been, as Ambrose Peddle has been, mayor, first Mayor of the Town of Windsor, Newfoundland for five and one half years, five and a half years Mayor of Windsor, one of our larger towns.

And then from 1962 to 1966 a member of this House of Assembly here in Newfoundland and then from 1967 to 1971, I guess it was 1971, 1967 to 1971, or 1968 to 1971 whatever it was during that term of Parliament he was the Member of Parliament for Grand Falls - White Bay-Labrador in the House of Commons at Ottawa. So that is eight to nine years experience in these two Houses, also with experience in the Civil Service both before and after Confederation and then he has conducted his own business for about a dozen years ancl was {nvolv<'c! in all kinds of other community activities. Widely known and respected 6299

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2100 NM - 3 111 the Pr.ovince, a man of integrity, always a gentlemanJ Now how could that background not suit Ambros!! Peddle to be the first Omb'!ldsman in this Province? What Jllllkes that appoin~t so ball apart fJ'OIII the fact that honourable gentlemen opposite object to the fact that Mr. Peddle ·was known. to have supported the P.C. Party. I.f it: was a fot'l!ler Liberal member -of the House of Assembly, or a former Liberal member of the Hous·e of COIDIIIOJUJ, honourable gentlemen opposite 6300

June 5, 1975 Tanes 2101 anrl ?ln? PK - 1 would have cheered the appointment. They would have cheered it and huzzaed it and said how fitting it was if it had been a Liberal. But because Hr. Peddle is in their eyes tainted with the mark that he was a P . C.,they cannot understand P.C. appointments. They certainly 11ever made any. If it had been a Liberal then they would have cheered, roared and given loud huzzas.

So here we are we are proposing to this House Mr. l\mbrose Hubert Peddle, five and a half years Mayor of Hindsor, four year1a a memt-er of this House, four years, four years a Member of the Parliament of Canada, experienced in business and all kinds of connnunity activities.

And as far as we know Pe have not heard one word against his character or his reputation, known as arr.an of integrity and common sense, devoted ten years, fourteen - what is it? - he devoted about twelve or fourteen years to the public life of Newfoundland to helping to try to solve the problems of individuals, indenendent type, not the tyne that can be swayed by anyone, who has been appointed to an independent post where he can only be removed by a resolution of this House of Assem1'ly, where he does not have to kowtow to anyone, where he is completely independent, where his salary is independent the same as the Auditor General, where he becomes an officer of this House, and where he has the duties set out in a Parliamentary Commissioner (Ombudsman) Act with the emendments that that has been given recently and with his salary set so he gets the same salary as the chief magistrate and does not have to be dealt with individually on salary any longer 1-oecause if the magistrates salaries goes up his will go up, and it will not depend on anything that he has done or not done.

Now, Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely nothing wronr.: in fact we should be proud and members of this House should he proud to vote for the appointment of Ambrose Peddle as a Parliamentar y Commissioner. There had heen Ombudsmen appointed in some jurisdiction R­ One was an ex-R.C.}l,P. Superinl!endent. Well,what fits an R.C.M.P. Superintendent to be a better Ombudsman than somebody who has r.ot experience in the House of Commons and in the House of Assembly and in public life? I would think that he would be less suited. An 6301

June 5, 1975 Tapes 1101 and 2102 PK - 2 R.C.M.P. Superintendent or whatever has never had to deal with individuala problems, people who are confused by the bureaucracy, who do not know what department to go to or to have some problem that their member has to look after for them. An R.C.M.P. Superintendent has no connection whatsoever, never had any previous experience in those kinds of things. In fact,R.C.M.P. Superintendents are not normally known as the heroes of civil rights advocates. It is quite the opposite. '!That would make a clergyman any better suited to be Parliamentary Ombudsman than Ambrose Peddle?

Is there any particular quality about a clergyman, as a class,clergyman that make thm any better suited? You have to look at the individual involved. Reverend X may be a fantastic and fine man, and Reverend Y may be something entirely different. One ex-member of this Bouse may be one type of character and one kind of person, and the second ex-member may be something entirely different. Are we all to branded and categorized as not fit for appointment to any kind of post at all in public service, involving any kind of public trust once we are finished here simply because we were members of this Bouse?

I do not think so. Now, Mr. Speaker, I could say a lot more. And I do not intend to ~ay a lot more .

I would rather wait and see what the Opposition is going to say. 'Whether they felt any qualms of conscience at the kind of outcry that they raised a month ago when this was first mooted to this Bouse, whether they want to continue in that kind of outcry and damage the position before it even gets well established, you know, whether they will continue that kind of tactic, or whether they will be a little more statesmanlike and a~ree that Ambrose Peddle, P.C. or no P.C., former P.C. or whatever he was,is a very situable person for this post. By the way, Mr, Mahoney in this

article here points out that as from the date of his appointment he will give up his membership in the Conservative Party and avoid any political affiliations from this day forward, the same as Ambrose Peddle, of course, would do. 6302

June 5, 1975 Tapes 2101 and 2102 PK - 3 There is only one other thing that might be mentioned, Mr. Speaker, and that is this kind of a hullabaloo is not kicked up when some ex-member of this House or the House of CoDDDOns gets appointed to the Bench. And there have been dozens, and there have been hundreds of judicial appointments in Canada of ex­ members of the House of Commons and the House of Assembly who have been appointed to the Bench, and never a word said,as properly there should not be said,about those appoinbnents as long as they are qualified for the post no matter what parties they belonged to.

So why the great outcry about the appointment of Ambrose P~ddle to the position of Ombudsman? We know, of course, one reason why the Opposition is making a cry, they think there is something to it politically, that they can paint it as something infamous. Well they are going to have quite a job to paint this as anything very infamous. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it may be and I hope that it is, it may be that the Opposition will now save a lot of the time of this House, repair a lot of the damage they have caused by agreeing with us now to lllOVe unanimously that the question be put and that we deal with this resolution right now without anything further exceDt a few complimentary words from whoever is going to speak on behalf of the Opposition opposite. I hope so and I sm proud, Mr.

Speaker, and delighted to have the privilege of moving this resolution that Ambrose Rubert Peddle be appointed the first Parliamentary Commissioner or Ombudsman in the Province of Newfoundland. We have looked for several years and he is the best qualified man we have been able to find for the job and I have ' every confidence that 6303

.June 5, 1975. Tape 2103 RH - 1 he will be a first class ombudsman who wi.11 deal without fear or favour with anything that comes before him or anything he initiates himself in looking into any of the administrative or other actions of this governl'lent or whatever other governments follow behind it. MR. SPRAKER: Just hefore I recognize the honourable Member for Hermitage I am merely going to say that I looked at the standing order again and the questions as given notice of by the honourable ~,ember for Bell Island are in order and shall be debated at five thirty this afternoon.

The honourable Member for Hermitage. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have some things to sav on motion number three, the motion that was to have been moved by the Premier, the Premier who was in his seat until Orders of the Day were called, was here right from three o'clock,but for some reason had to skip out. I am sure he could have used his influence with the House Leader to have the calling of the motion deferred until be could ~et back into the House. So, I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that his being out of the House was rather contrived and rather deliberate, rather convenient.

I would suggest he is out of the House so he would not have to :Introduce this particular motion. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker - l,<P,.. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please: The Chair feels that the honourable Menber for Hermitage is really questioning the motives of the Premi.er in saying that he was deliberately out of the House so he Pould not have to introduce this motion. Certainly, that is out of order. nt. s:i;MrfONS: Mr. Speaker, if that is all, of course, I have no hesitatinn in •,;.,ithdrawing it. The Premier will have an opportunity to speak for himself.

I can only ~"Onder out loud,~- Speaker, as to why the Premier does not introduce this motion himself, a motion that has a fair amount of import for all the people of Newfoundland. It stands in h:fs name on the Order Paper. Certainly arrangements could have been made for it to have been called in his presence but instead it gets called :In his absence, what- ever the reason for his absence may be. Ue can speculate on that. I would have - liked to have heard the Premier give us acme argument which, 6304

June 5, 1975. Tape 2103 P..ll - 2 by the way, the Minister of 'Fisheries failed miserably to do. Any argument as to the wisdom of this particular appointment and why in particular, this is the whole meat of the motion, ~,r. Speaker, why the particular person named in the motion was indeed the hest possible appo:lntee. ?low, the minister only in his very last statement, :In his concluding sentence said something to the effect that it was by far the best appointment. l!e did not tell me why. He certainly convinced me that Ontario probably has a good appointment.

It certainly has an appointment that the people of Ontario can live with as is demonstrated in the press reports. I read a writeup in .IJ.ms:, I think, :In the past few days about this Kr. !-'.aloney. There is no doubt about his credentials for the job and no doubt about his acceptance by the people of Ontario,whether the leaders of political parties or other people in the public eye, no question about his acceptance and his acceptability.

But I do not believe our motion refers particularly to Mr. l-1'.aloney although the 1~inister of Fisheries spent fully two-thirds of his time talking about the propriety of that particular appointment. We are talking about another individual here, lfr. Speaker. We are talking about the proposal to anpoint one Ambrose Hubert Peddle. Now the minister in his usual clowning circus-like fashion raved on about the vicious attack that had been made on an individual. But he did admit he was absent at the time. He chose not to tell us where he was but we have an idea • 6305

.T,me 5, l q75 Tape 2104 (afternoon) IB-1 He did admit t:o being absent:, and obviously either read the preee reports wron~ly or the press reported wrongly what: went on. I have sat here during the period that colleagues on my side of the House spoke on this matter a month or so ago. I do not recall any particularly vicious attack. Indeed I think it exists only in the mind of t:he ~finister of Fisheries. That is understandable. That is understandable, ~r. Speaker. A lot of vicious things exist only in hie mind. There was no vicious attack. Let us call spades spades, Mr. Speaker.

What we are talking about is whether the gentleman whose neme Is proposed in this resolution is the man best able to perform the role. If he is not, I say, Mr. Sneaker, that the onus is on t:he Premier and his colleagues in cabinet to find t:he man hest able. Now, what are we talking about? Are we talking shout some position of trust as the Vfnfster of Fisheries would say? He says, are we all branded now having heen in this Rouse, as being 1mfit in the future t:o hold any position of trust. lie knows that is not the issue at all. Of course we are not so branded.

The issue is ~-hether the gentleman who is being proposed will be completely approachable by every Newfoundlander,because that: is what the jnb of ombudsman is all about, whether he wi111 whether each Newfoundlander will have access to that person. And there exists in the puhlic mind, and, Mr. Speaker, we did not start this outcry against: the nrorosed appointment. I would say we have joined in the outcry because we have felt that it is the proper and honourable thing to do. We dicl not initiate this outcry all over the Province,and there is an outcry, not only in the editorial pages, Mr.

Speaker, but from a number of individuals who understand the role of ombudsman and who are concerned ahout it. 1 say to the Premier now, if he is within the hearing of my voice, I say to him that even if at the time he made the decision or whoever made the decision to recommend this nam~, even if at that time he and his colleagues felt it was the wisest choice, it has certainly heen demonstrated to him since then that it is not the wisest choice. no matter how impeccable the man's credentials may be, no matter how competent he may be, the issue is now simply that i~ has been demonstrated 6306

June 5, 1975 Tape 2104 (afternoon) TR-? by the public outcry, not just something contrived or manufactured by us on this side of the House, but a legitimate and fairly widespread public outcry against the appointment of this individual, for that reason alone, Mr. Speaker, irrespective of how impeccable his credentials may be, for that reason alone, namely the lack of public Pcceptance, for that reason alone this proposed appointment is unacceptable hecause it is the people of Newfoundland, the ordinary people of Newfoundland who will have to approach this particular person. Now, Mr.

Speaker, what we are talking about here in the last - today and in the last month is not something new. We are not srtting any real precedents in tenns of setting up an ombudsman. The omhudsrnan goes back a long way in Scandinavia, I think, to 1803 or 1809 or somewhc.re arolDld there or the first part of the nineteenth century. 'l'hey in the Scandinavian countries have a long tradition of ombudsmen. They can draw on a valuable fmid of experience as to what are the pitfalls.

Feading the literature, one of the clearer pitfalls and a pitfall that the Scandinavian people have not fallen into is the appointment of a politically rartisan person. Now, we have heard from the 1finister of Fisheries at length about what applies in Ontario. Re choose to skate over what applies in the other six or seftn provinces where we have 0111budsmen and have had them for some time. So, for the henefit of the record let us just have a look at what is happening in other provinces.

The minister dealt with Ontario where we have a very competent criminal lawyer who also I believe sat as a newiber of the House of Commons, as a Conservative member of the House of CODDOns and whose appointment was well received by 6307

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2105 NM - 1 MR. SIMMONS: all concerned if you can judge by press reports. Now, Mr. Speaker, other Provinces, P.E.I. they have no legislation at tne moment affecting an Ombudsman. New Brunswick, they do have an Ombudsman and he is one - I am sorry, not New Brunswick but Nova Scotia first of all, the Ombudsman there is one Dr. Harry Smith, appointed about four years ago. That appointment had the prior concurrence of the Leader of the Opposition before it was announced to the Rouse by the Premier.

It was done in consultation with the various parties in the House in Nova Scotia so that there could be no such public confrontation as we have had to get into right here. And I suggest that if the Premier were anxious to appoint the best Ombudsman to the job and anxious to pave the way to see that he could do an effective job as an Ombudsman, the Premier would have done some of his homework privately like this too, instead of parading it out in his usual confrontation style, daring people to take him on. Nova Scotia,as I say,did it in consultation. Dr.

Smith the present appointee of course is a man who is an academic by background, who has had no political, that is to say no party affiliation, never been a party worker and never sought an election as a candidate for any particular party. What his credentials are otherwise, well I just told you, they are those of an academic and he was involved at the Nova Scotia Teachers College in the French Department and so on but what his credentials are for Ombudsman I do not intend to comment on. I am just wanting to demonstate at this point, Mr.

Speaker, that appointees in other Provinces, with the exce,tion of Ontario, have had no involvement in party politics whatsoever. New Brunswick has had an Ombudsman since 1967. Three persons have held that office. Dr. Flemington until his death was a clergyman, an educator, a soldier, a public servant, and a professor at Mo1mt Allison University, then President of the University for seventeen years and then involved for a number of years with CIDA, the Canadian International Development Agency before becoming Ombudsman. His successor, Mr. Charles Leger served until his death in 1973.

He was a lawyer involved in the Barristers Society of New Brunswick, a Chairman 6308

June S, 1975 Tape No. 2105 NM - 2 of the Town Planning Commission of Moncton, Director of the Community Chest, and again no involvement in political office. And the present Ombudsman in New Brtmswick,Mr. George McAllister,was the Dean of the University of New Brunswick's Law School until his apointment as Ombudsman. In Quebec the Ombudsman there,called the Public Protector , Louis Marceau, was the Dean of Law at Laval University before being appointed and was aligned with no political party according to the record. Ontario we have heard about already, Mr. Maloney.

In Manitoba, they have had an Ombudsman since 1970, Mr. George Mu!tsby and he was involved as an R.C.M.P. Officer and as Chief of Police for one of the suburban parts of Winnipeg. No political background. In Saskatchewan they have had an Ombudsman since 1973, Mr. Earnest Boychuk. This is interesting here, Mr. Speaker, the mett•N: nf selection in Saskatchewan is of particular interest. Applicant• were selected by advertisement across Canada and interviews were conducted by the Secretary to Cabinet and the Clerk of the House of Assembly. They interviewed several people including Mr.

Boychuk and finally they reconnended his name to the House in Saskatchewan. He had been a lfa~istrate of the .Provincial Court in Saskatchewan and was connected with no political party. In Alberta the first appointee was Mr. George McClellan, retired Colllnissioner of the R.C.K.P. and he was succeeded by nr; Randell Ivany in 1974 who had been a clergyman and a professional electrical engineer, in both cases no party affiliation. 6309

June 5, 1975 Tape 2106 (afternoon) ~r. Speaker, here is a

summary of the backgrounds if you like of the various olllhudsmen who are or ~ho have held the post of ombudsman across Canada. AN HONOURABLE ME~ER: Very well read. IB-1 ~- ~I~NS: And with the exception of the Ontario one, which we have heard about already, none of these people have had any affiliation with any party whatsoever. Now, Mr. Speaker, again we are not espousing anything that is particularly new right here.

If we go back to the Select Committee set up by this House, oh some years ago, 1969, I believe, we will see there that the committee, the Select Committee,was pretty concerned then that the ombudsman should be a person who was free from all kinds of pressure or biasses insofar as nolitics were ~oncerned. ~ow, the Select C011111ittee as some will recall included the present uinister of Justice, the ~ember for Burin, the present ~inister of Tourism, the present Leader of the Opposition. Only those three, Mr. Speaker, are present - !-'R. y,qJRPHY: Row many meetings did they hold? MR. SIH"IONS: I have no idea, Mr.

Speaker. _1-'R. 'MURPHY: Not one! Not one! MP.. SI~S: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker, - MR • SPEAKER: Order, please! "MR. SI~ONS: - how many meetings they had if they had any. I can only go hy the renort. I do not see any minority report here from the Minister of Tourism. MF. RICKEY: '1R. SIMmNS: We did not get an opportunity to submit one. I do not see any minority report from the Minister of Justice. J have checked the records of the House for that period. I do not see any rlace where the 'Minist .er of Tourism or the Minister of Justice took exception to any part of the report. So, I can only assume, Mr.

Speaker, that they endorsed the report. But whether or not they endorsed the full report or not is not my point at this time because they have had opportunities since, ~r. Speaker, to introduce some amendments which they have done. So, I am not going to get particularly sidetracked about whether or not they had one meeting or nine or ten. That is not important to what I find in this document because if you vent by the 6310

June 5, 1975 Tape 2106 (afternoon) validity of this document - I will refer to eome comments hy the Minister of Justice and others right in the House of Assembly,and perhaps then they will question the Hansard record. The Select Committee, Mr. Speaker, was particularly concerned, and in their recommendation to the llouse of Assembly in 19f.9, their recnmmendation s as to the qualifications of the proposed ombudsman, they said in part - now, I can only assume, Mr. Speaker, that this is the Member for Durin, the Member for St.

John's East Extern, the Leader of the Opposition - the only three members who are presently sitting in the House - plus some other members who are no longer in the House, ~r. Nolan, Dr. Frecker, Mr, Hodder, Mr. Noel. I can only assume that this report represents the viewpoints of these particular people. In any event it recommended in terms of qnalifications, he should be a man not too young,not too old, not too rigid an outlook. He should be able to view problems and cases with objectivity rather than sentimentality. He must be non-political. Now, t'r.

Speaker, if you will notice what has gone before, they have been saying he should be a man not too young,he should be able to view problems etc, Rut, then when they get to the matter of poU.tics, they change from should and they say, he must be non-political, like a judge and secure from interference, fie must not he a member of the ttouse nor hold any office or employm,ent and so on, Then they quote from the Swedish ombudsman as reported by a Mr.

Anderman in the American Journal of Comparative Law as follows: "To be effective, the ombudsman must maintain the respect of other public officials, the public and particularly the parliament who elect him. He must not be cowed by high ranking officials nar should he he unwilling when necessary to take an unpopular position. fie must be a strong individual. He must also endeavor to remain above party politics, To a certain extent the requirement of a judicial backp;round .. aids in selecting a relatively non-political nominee. That is part of the foundation, ~r. Speaker, on which our present legislation is built.

An overriding concern by the Minister of Tourism, the Minister of Justice, the Leader of the Opposition, that we appoint to the office somebody who would command a respect of the entf re pub lie, ,mrl sowbody 6311

Jnne 5, 1975. Tape 2107 RH - 1 in particular who would have no association with party politics. ''P-. A. l-'{fRPRY: The honourable member would not make a judge of that. HR. SP.".'IONS: I read it out, yes. '·T..:...~ l'R.PHY: I am wondering if that says like a judge. ''R. sn~m~s : ----- --- Oh, yes! }fr. Speaker, for the benefit of the member for St. John's Centre I read in part, I think there was something like a judge here at one point. Just hang on now.

Yes, it is. (}uote, this is from the report of the COTllil\ittee itself now, not the ouotation from Sweden but the report of the Co1111'1.ittee, "Re must he non-political, like a judge 1 and secure from interference." t,IP-.• 1-IL'Rl'~: Judge Noel said that, did he not? !'R . SIMMONS: Pardon? ?1R. ~WRP__!!!_: Judge Noel said that. ~'R . ROHE: There is a comma in between -- --- ?~. SU!MONS: here all night. Do not trv and explain it to him "Fred". We will be ml.. ROWE: We will put him in a daycare centre when we get them set up, !'"lR. S IMJ,!QNS : Mr .

Speaker, I have also checked the verbatim report of the House for 1970 when this matter was discussed here in the House and I find the Minister of Justice,who must be party to this resolution, I would assume it hacl had his concurrence, I assume the Premier checked uith his colleagues before he brought the resolution in,and I find him, the :1inister of Justice in this verbatim report on page 3761 of ~•onday, nay 11, 1970 saying the following, "To my knowledge and to the knowledge of the members of the Select Committee we could not find any evidence of any former politician having ever been appointed to the position of ombudsman, and the reason for it is that this man i s jn the s ame position, he has to be, as the man who was appointed to the hench of the Supreme Court or any other judicial body;'and so ho ?, oes on.

T.he >,finister of Justice at that particular time ~•as

June 5, 1975. Tape 2107 RE - 7- particularly concerned that no one who had been involved in partisan politics should be appointed as ombudsman. Our sin now,and the sin for which we had to put up with the nastiness of which only the Minister of Fisheries is capable, the sin for which we had to listen to that diatribe again this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, he,entertaining hflllself and nobody else ~rlth his new heights and depths of nastiness, our sin, Mr. Speaker, is for saying what his colleague, the Minister of Justice,said five years ago.

Our sin is that we say that no matter what the competence of the individual being proposed is, his record is one of a political partisan and for that he is unacceptable, not to hold any office of public trust as the minister puts it, no, of course not. We are talking about one particular office, an office that is li~e no other office in thP public sector, Mr. Speaker, an office that must be COlll]>letely approachable by every Newfoundlander, every Newfoundlander. Mil. BARRY: (First

part inaudible.) - a judge IILl&t go by the law. MR. SD!MONS: I would even go so far as to say, Mr. Speaker, in response to the interjection from the Minister of Mines, I would go even so far as to say that even more than a judge, he has to be even more approach­ able because there are other methods, Mr. Speaker. If the judge - Mil. NEARY: Bow come a Tory got appointed recently to a judgeship too'l MR. SIMK>NS : If the judge, Mr. Speaker, is not completely approachable, although I hope he would be,and if for some reason he is not, there arP other recourses. There are lots of precedents, Mr.

Syeaker, where a person has requested and been tried by another magistrate because of s0111e particular personal circt.anstance which pertains between the defendent and the judge or the magistrate. There are all kinds of examples, Mr. Speaker, where the defendent or the would-be defendent has another course of action hecauAe there are other judges and there are other magistrates. But that is not the case, Mr. Speaker, 'l'rlth the ombudsman, not the case. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the epitome of dignity in this Rouse, the man who keeps screaming that the dignity of the House is going to be lowered, ia now doing his best to elevate it as usual. He has not stopped yappinp,, Mr. Speaker, since I started, like a cracky. If he could only be as silent 6313

June 5. 1975. Tape 2107 RH - 3 rip.ht now as he would lflr.e us to be at times, I would have much less difficulty in getting on with this. The epitome of dignity, the man ~>ho is alwavg upholding the traditions of the House. JlR. SPEAKER: Order, please! /IN !IONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 631(·

June 5, 1975 Tape 2108 (afternoon) ~. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: What nonsense he is. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! IR-1 I will remind the honourable me~rs that when a member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence. If the honourable member opposite, or if any honourable member opposite provokes , or says something re the speech being made by the honourable Member for Hennitage, then that still does not give the hononrable ~ember for Hermitage the right to reply even though he might feel like doing so. lie is certainly not -being relevant to this resolution. ~- SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I got the message. Now, l"r. Speaker, while we are talking about the remarks that were made back in 1970 when this matter was debated in the Rouse, it is proba~ly "appropriate that we should refer to some remarks that were made by the present Minister of Fisheries whose views on this matter, of course, we heard just now, I presume his only views on the matter. of words, Mr. Speaker. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: No action. We heard lots MR. Siffll>NS: Indeed in some respects they made more sense than they make right now.

What he was saying then makes an awful lot more sense than the diatribe we heard this afternoon, Kr. Speaker. It is certainly more pertinent to the motion or the resolution under debate. MR. F. ROWE: Was he Liberal or P.C. then? MR. SIMMOIIS: Well, he was crossing. It depended on what day, you see . It does not tell. There is no box core in here. So, it is hard to tell. It depends on what particular day it was, whether he was Liberal or Tory or Independent or Reformed or Deformed or whatever the party was he had at tbe particular time.

But, he was certainly articulate about the ombudsman's job as you will see in a minute. I read now, Mr. Speaker, from Monday, April 27, 1970, page 2891. I am quoting the present Minister of Fisberies who was then not the Minister of Fisheries. MR. F .• ROWE: Political hybrid. 6315

June 5, 1q75 Tape 210~ (afternoon) IB-2 MR. Slmq)NS: I am quoting from him. "The person appointed a parliamentary commissioner must - (not too grannatical but that is -we will try it again). The person - AN HONOUP.ABLE MD'BER: What are you doing? •~. Sl)A1"0NS: I am trying to make some grammar out of what the minister has here. ''The person appointed a parliamentary commissioner must absolutely fair - I suppose he means must be absolutely fair -"not ever afraid of .. a fuss 'lo1ith the government, the type who will just not give a damn, (it vas parliamentary in those days) is going to press on ir~egardless.

He has got to be that type of person. It is not good in bringing in some person who is ready for retirement from public life or ready for retirement from anything." I presume from that he means including politics. But• these are not his words. He sairl, "Or ready for retirement from ;anything." Now, is Kr. Peddle retired from politics~or is he planning, is this just a little interlude? Is he going back to politics when it is all over? The minister then said, "Not someone who is ready for retirement from anything. Re has got to be the crusty, unreasonable type." Sounds like he is making a job for himself there.

"Got to be the crusty, unreasonable type who gets his teeth into something." Even the Member for Burgeo might have applied if there had been applications for the position, ~r. Speaker. This is good this is. Literature - this should he in the high schools. Is the Minister of Education here? AN HONOURABLE ~ER: It has got to be simple for you to understand it. '11!. F. ROWE: How not to do it. MR. SIJ,!!,fONS: "Re has got to be the crusty, unreasonable type who gets his teeth into something and will never let it go, that will go right for the government's jugular as soon as he finds a case of injustice.

He will find lots of them. He will find lots of them in this Province. Ile has got to be the type who goes right for the throat and not care tf he is ROing to he bumped out by the House of Assembly or diSlllissed hy the Lieutenant-Governor in Council a few months later. That is the type that you have to have if this bill is going to be any good at all, Mr. SpPaker. And, Kr. Speaker, I would like to have someone's assurance •••• " And he p,oes on then to make a case for them be~ng sble to investigate the 6316

.1mi'e s. 1,1, Tape 2108 (afternoon) TB-3 •arloas coaaiss:Lons, the Power CODlldsaion ~cl the Liquor c~~sion about whi.ch he had aome particular :hangups at t:hat -ti• and so on and so on • .AN BOR01JRABLE MEMBER: Bear! Beu? Mil. SDll)RS: Bu.t, an-,way, Hr. Speaker, without pasa:lng any judgements, I jut ask the ·question whether the desc'Ei.pti°'1 we haft just · read about tbe fearless ., unreasGDable, crusty, tauetlrecl jugular-gnd>bing type 1-. Allb~se t>eddl~. 6317 ,.

June 5, 1975 Tape 2109 (Afternoon) AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! light on! MR. SillMONS: ------ Now, Mr. Speaker, there is something about I guess it is my past association with the present Minister of ~ PK - 1 Justice that I read every word he has written - every word he said I should say - every word he said because I keep hoping that somewhere - MR. BICDIAH: Trying to learn something about leadership. MR. S IMHDNS : Yes, that is right. I keep hoping that somewhere I will find some more things that I wrote for him, - AN HON. MEMBER: ?-fR.

SIMMONS: Inaudible. - like that tremendous education ,·.speech I wrote for him and to which I referred in the last session. MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: But I must say I take no particular credit for this. He probably consulted iae on it, and I probably gave him the benefit of my long experience at the time. But these t-.•ords are his own 1I believe, Mr. Speaker. I did not write them.

But they were said on Tuesday April 28, 1970, and I am reading from nage 2~43 quoting some more itmnortal words from the present Minister of Justice, the aspirant to a judgeship,but at present the ~inister of Justice temporarily anyway. And he goes on to say, Mr. Sneaker, what kind of person we have to have as an Omhudsman. And I quote, "A cOlllpletely, fearless. unbiased man not susceptible to political influence, not susceptible to r,olitical appointment, and not susceptible to the wishes of an overhearing government.'' 'fr.

Speaker, we saw again - I always get captivated by the performance of the Minister of Fisheries, but beyond the captivation there is another feeling, one of genuine fear. I find myself saying if he is willing to bully like that in public how much does he really hully in private. If he is rilling to be that overbearing in public where the press are watching us,how over­ bearing can he be if he had to deal some day with an Ombudsman who is also an old friend of his, an old political partner of his. How overbearing could he be, Mr. Speaker, if we are to judge by 6318

June 5, 1975 Tape 2109 (Afternoon) PK - 2 bow ruthless he can be in his dealings right here 1n this particular House? And I would not want to be Mr. Peddle. I woul~ not want to be Mr. Peddle as the Ombudsman if the ~inister of Fisheries were still the Minister of Fisheries at that particular time. He must be - I am using the words of my friend, the Minister of Justice, ''Be •••t be an unbiased man not susceptible to political influence." And then, Mr.

Speaker, we now come to what must be the highlight of these readings this afternoon - I kept the best until last-- ve come to a quote from tut great protector of parliamentary democracy the present Member for St. John's Centre. Now, Mr. Speaker, if you had not had time to think about the need for an Ombudsman I tell you,save your time,do not waste your time because the Member for St. John's Centre had it solved, had it all solved five years ago. He had it right down to a T five y-rs ago.

I am quoting now for his reference, if someone will find the page for him, Tuesday,April 28, 1970, page 2965, and he talks about the salary, he feels perhaps it should be a little more than whatever it was - I think he was talking about $100,000 at the time, but anyway we will go on from there. But then be says, -·111111t I think I am trying to be a little more practical, a little 110re down to earth on this. This appointment"- he is talking about Ombudsman now, Mr. Speaker, and keep in mind that one of the things that the · government will tell us that thi~ should ~ave been done long ago.

Well listen to the House Leader of those days, I believe, for the Tories. 1 1 think I em trying to be a little more practical : • he says, a little more down to earth on this. This appointaent at this time, in my opinion, would be just as practical as building another Elizabeth Towers or just as practical as having a public building on the Funk Islands." 6319

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2110 NM - 1 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I could think of reasons, reasons of humanity why I would like to put a building on the Funk Islands, and I would not want the minister to be out there without any shelter at all. Just for 9beer humanity I would vote to put a building on the Funks, a small one. Yes, he says, economicially, and so on, ~speaking with the state ., we are in in our finances period. That is the end of whatever he was going ~ to say right there. But he goes on to say, I cannot see what purpose the Ombudsman would serve at this time. We have forty-two members in " this House.

We have eighteen Cabinet Ministers. How many have they p:ot now? MR. ROWE: Over ei~hteen. Nineteen. HR, THOMS: Nineteen. MR. SIMK>NS: AN HON. MEMBER: I see. That is the crowd that was going to have a - Inaudible, MR. SIMK>NS: I see. I see. Well that is a fair number, fair number, Eighteen Cabinet Ministers. MR. NEARY: Any chance of getting on the gravey train? HR. MURPHY: You fell off it. MR. SIMMONS: Well the Premier was absent, Mr. Speaker, so he would not know. But he is back in now. The minister has introduced the motion for him. I am quoting from his colleague back in 1970, what his colleague from St.

John's Centre had to say about the Ombudsman. MD. MURPHY: He was no colleague, he was a Liberal in these days. MR. SIMMONS: Who,the Premier was? MR. MURPHY: Yes. MR. SIMMONS: The Premier? MR. MURPHY: Biggest Liberal in the country. MR. SIMMONS: Well there were some advantages to fellows crossing the floor after all. MR. MURPHY: You would never know. MR. SIMMONS: Is that right? MR. NEARY: We always knews the Liberals went over and took it over over there. 6320

Juue 5, 1975 Tape No. 2110 NM - 2 MR. SIMK>NS: I would certainly rather have them sitting across from i me than behind me, Mr. Speak.er. MR. MURPHY: Only three Tories in the House today. MR. SIMK)NS: Yes, and he goes on to say - MR. NEARY: Marshall, Carter and Wells, one of them got into the Cabinet today, first Tory to get into the Cabinet. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: They have planted a fellow in the Cabinet now and look out. Look out, the beginning of the end. Mr. Speaker, quoting again from the immortal words of the RTeat protector of parliamentary democracy, the Member for St.

John's Centre, "I think we hold our own with any Province of Canada as far as representation is concerned. I think we all try to do our best to speak with people on the different grievances and so on.'' · Now I will r,et down here again. MR. MORPHY: Professional efforts, not like you people are doing it - MR. SIMMONS: Row then, . Mr. Speaker - AN HON. MEMBER: That is parliamentary. MR; SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMKJNS :', That is parliamentary. That is good. That is par for the course for the Member for St. John's Centre, Mr. Speaker, power for the course. MR. NEARY: Keep quiet "Hank". MR. MDBPHY: Inaudible.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROira: We are going to put you in a daycare centre. HJ!.. SIMK>NS: Mr. Speaker, I will tolerate him, Mr. Speaker, he - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: He does not know any better so I can tolerate him if you can, Mr. Speaker. MR~ ROWE: Sit,boy! Sit,boy: MR. SD!MONS: He goes on to say, Mr. Speaker, quoting from the Member for • St. John's Centre back in 1970, I do not know the exact words that the honourable 6321

June 5, 1975 Tape No. 2110 NM - 3 minister quoted the other day but we have had one Ombudsman for the past number of years back and 1 do not see any reason or hope that .. that great Ombudsman will be replaced by the one that is coming in and so on and so forth. Anyway, the point is that at least one member in the Cabinet would just as soon see a building on the Funks as see an Omhudsman.

He also goes on to say that it is a squandering of the public money and I hope we will hear from the Premier~if he decides to stay in the House when we close this debate or sometime during it, I hope we will hear how they resolve that one and whether they still think it is a squandering of public money or whether the Minister of Social Serives was once again expressing a personal viewpoint · or as may be more likely, if he has very little influence on what the goveTillllent does anyway and no 11111tter what he thought about the Ombudsman, if the Premier decided they are going to appoint a fellow and if in particular decided they were going to appoint Ambrose Peddle, well that was all was to be said and the Member for St.

John's Centre might just as well shut up about his squandering and his raving on about buildings on the Funks because the Premier had made up his mind, or somebody has made up his mind for him, probably the Minister of Fisheries for that matter, Mr. Speaker. Well so far, Mr. Speaker, I have referred to what has happened in other parts of Canada, I have referr